BST ready/sic/reward range [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

hakrev

09-17-2015, 09:23 AM

There is a serious problem with this adjustment, and that is that you can be standing or fighting on the other side of a monster and you are "Out of Range", IE u have to be within 3-5 yalms from your actual pet. It's an absurdly tiny range. 10 yalms even 15 yalms is very close to the pet, and you will get any aoe effect within that range, there is no reason to make it 5 yalms. I literally can't even fight on the other side of the same monster right now and that is NOT 'working as intended.'

Standing at 10-15 yalms is dangerous business and would do the same exact thing, provide balance by forcing the beastmaster to play his role, but seriously not being able to give commands when you are already fighting the monster is stupid. This isn't balance it's job-breaking. What's next, whm having to be within 5 yalms to cast cure, a blm needing to be 5 yalm to cast a spell? A tank unable to provoke things more than 5 yalms away? A blue mage unable to cast more then 5 yalms away? A ranger unable to fire shots from 5 yalms away? How would those adjustments sound to any of you? Terrible and game-breaking. Which is exactly what this is, the height of stupidity. I'm not even a huge bst fan, but honestly I feel very bad for this job with this rediculous and unnecessary and untested nerf-bomb.

Basically if you all have any sense at all just swap to smn, it's 10x more powerful and way more unbalanced, so enjoy that job ^^ bst is useless atm. Smn got a BONUS to it's range xD which is kinda silly, but hey everyone is just going to swap over and that's all there is to it. I just feel bad for the many players who especially love playing bst and no job should get so absolutely crippled 2 months before they stop development, cmon guys feel a little empathy for the poor players who went out of their way to be specialized bsts and feel their pain. It'd be like taking away overpowered shields for plds or deleteing berserk for wars, it's just kinda heartbreaking.

dasva

09-17-2015, 09:32 AM

^this @ what bungie said. they purposely did it. it was to keep people who were like... "omg i'll just let my pets fight and do all the dirty work while i sit back and relax and not do a single blasted thing 20+ yalms away from the mob out of harms way".
How exactly would an update that makes you have to come in closer to do things make someone who was standing out of range doing nothing do something? If they really were relaxing and not doing a thing then these adjustments mean nothing since they will continue to just not use those moves....

As far as staying away and affecting the game you mean like the other pets jobs, mages, and ranged jobs?

Elexia

09-17-2015, 09:40 AM

SMN is far squishier than BST ever will be. Also they're not stopping development, just nothing major, job adjustments are apart of the 'maintenance mode'. BST isn't useless, you'll have to adapt. I said this back in 2004, 2006 and I said it again in 2010 so I'll say it once again: When burns become a "problem" and all you see are "GIVE ME ABC JOBS ONLY FAST FAST LONG TIME" shouts flooding the 'airwaves'..you really can't expect SE to sit on their thumbs and not do anything. This was brought upon yourselves lol. I love BST but..seriously, it was done on purpose.

By the by: SMN had ranging problems for ages. Many old school SMNs can attest to trying to get a proper range, use bloodpact and it interrupts because you take a step or because the monster goes out of range just slightly only to have your avatar come prancing back to sit in your lap. Yes, it sucks that BST has to change their playstyle..but do or die. A lot of newer content does have some deadly AoEs but if you've done the content countless times, you can adapt pretty easily. But as said, the fact BST burns were a thing and pretty much others were being excluded..something was going to happen in some fashion. I don't support it fully, don't get me wrong..I just played FFXI since 2001's Japanese beta.

I know how SE operates and it was only a matter of time. Maybe it was too extreme? We'll see tomorrow. Otherwise...do or die.

How exactly would an update that makes you have to come in closer to do things make someone who was standing out of range doing nothing do something? If they really were relaxing and not doing a thing then these adjustments mean nothing since they will continue to just not use those moves....

As far as staying away and affecting the game you mean like the other pets jobs, mages, and ranged jobs?

Actually, Corsair has to get in range at times, Geomancer has to become the equivillent of rambo at times and blue mage is always in range as is DRG and PUP (they have a pet). I get what you mean but.....it's pretty clear the main reason for this change. Be grateful they didn't focus an ENTIRE SET OF CONTENT around screwing you over like they did to anyone who isn't a piercing, non nuking specialist back during ToAU+ era.

Kensagaku

09-17-2015, 10:20 AM

A Corsair doesn't "have to get in range," unless they're using Numbing Shot, but it's optimal because they provide additional support by being /dnc and TPing to add steps and haste samba along with their rolling, and TPing in melee tends to be better DPS. They have the ability to move back as necessary and switch to pure ranged, it's just less optimal.

Geomancer I will agree has it harder, and with their summons being a bit more MP-intensive, the low recast isn't as good as it could be. Still, MP isn't usually a problem unless your pet dies every single move (I know mine doesn't and I'm a bit sub-par).

Blue Mage is built for melee, try again. They're no less a frontline DD than a WAR or SAM, they just have utility for multiple ranges and abilities.

Dragoon and pet are in range but the wyvern has several innate defensive bonuses that allows it to stay alive much easier than other pets.

Puppetmaster doesn't have to be in range, and in fact, most times you won't have both in range; you'll have a healer pet in the background avoiding AoE, or the master in the background directing their pet. It's not as easy to direct the pet as it is for a BST, but they can turtle up at the cost of DPS or simply just be a ranged fighter. Many of their abilities for buffing their pet come with their attachments/maneuvers and don't require them to waste gear slots on hybridization, either, only for optimization.

So... most of those arguments are moot. :|

Alhanelem

09-17-2015, 10:23 AM

What I don't understand is why the existing range worked just fine for 12 years and now suddenly its a problem.

Andro

09-17-2015, 11:04 AM

I am recently back from almost 4 years ago, less than a month and a half and this? Seriously? You change the entire mechanics of a job, and make it drastically, radically and stupidly different. I can understand wanting to adjust the mechanics and shorten the distance, but this? Chase a pet around every time the mob moves, completely remove the viability of this job in many aspects and go as far as to tie a leash around the player? No thanks. All in all, I am seriously rethinking my giving FFXI another chance, I can finally solo content I've had trouble getting help in for a decade, but mess up my most used and useful job?!? Lets face it, Bst was never a "frontline" job. It was a solo, let pet duke it out, maybe run in when mob was almost dead to help most of the time or get hate and die. Survivability was always tricky and this jobs strongest point, now it is very much diminished. SE has always had serious issues with "adjustments", lets see how long it lasts. As for me, I think I'm out.

Elexia

09-17-2015, 11:19 AM

What I don't understand is why the existing range worked just fine for 12 years and now suddenly its a problem.

As said look at the past history of XI. Considering BST burning was the in thing and people were beginning to be salty about it, when hasn't SE started making sweeping changes to try to 'combat it'? The only burns they didn't fight was RNG burn back in sky and 'bone burns' in like 2003 simply because they died out. Like..SE make weird ass decisions some times..but really think about what spotlight BST had recently that might make SE want to "balance" it.

Gwydion

09-17-2015, 12:15 PM

I am so disappointed by the recent Beastmaster Nerf. Let's take a look at how you've crippled the job over the years. Folks, please add more, but these are the 4 biggest in my mind:

1.) 2004 - Nerfing Spinning Axe from AOE to single-target.
2.) 2005 - Allowing charmed monsters to despawn when released.
3.) 2009 - Abyssea - Charm is effectively useless, permanently.
4.) 2015 - Reducing the range for job Ready/Sic abilities that have worked since the game was released!

Yes, SE has empowered beastmaster greatly over the past 2 years, but a 7-yalm distance for Sic/Ready makes it very hard for folks leveling BST from 1 to 99 and gives us nothing to protect ourselves in Difficult or Very Difficult fights? Some mobs are large and we can't tell our pet to attack from the other side of these large monsters! Also, in terms of defense, we have none. (Our shield skill is terrible, ~300?)

I'm so upset by this. If you had told me when I started this game, in 2003 that so much would be taken away from my favorite job, I would have never signed up! :(

machini

09-17-2015, 12:21 PM

What I don't understand is why the existing range worked just fine for 12 years and now suddenly its a problem.

I've said it previously. If suddenly new content comes out and a job that was not a problem before is suddenly a problem, it's the content that's the problem and not the job.

The reason BST got as big as it did was the huuuge amount of massive AoE, combined with stupid shit like en-death I'm told one of the Escha NMs have. Players, especially glass cannon DDs who cannot understand the concept of -DT gear, can't take that. So pets were the best choice.

BST was fine for years, and was still fine even now. BST wasn't the problem, the content and the player base were and are the problem.

Elexia

09-17-2015, 12:32 PM

#2 was anti MPK measure though. So it does hurt BST..but it was done purely because said BSTs loved to MPK people on purpose with releasing aggresive high level enemies next to low level parties or to try to hinder certain fights like some ground kings back in the day.
#3 a lot of stuff was useless in Abyssea that normally was useful early on due to the dramatic change in gameplay at the time.

So it wasn't a slow progress to hurt BST..some changes were done for other reasons.

Andro

09-17-2015, 12:47 PM

Kind of funny really, FFXI has always been about the "popular" job, the only ones people wanted, in fact, coming back to FFXI, the only thing that changed was that my job was now one of them. I chose drg and bst because I enjoyed them, they were unpopular, avoided and ignored, but solo class. Best part of drg and bst back in the day: didn't need a party for exp (though drg was very slow pre-AF helm) and Relic Armor was easy to get, worst part: game content was not. That is why I ended up quitting, could never accomplish anything. There have always been preferred jobs, there have always been massively overpowered jobs, and there have always been overplayed jobs. This update did not actually correct anything, it just removed one job from the top categories, put it on the bottom, slapped some players in the face and said your fired, bst now has leprosy, hepatitis and AIDS, get a new job. Waste some more time gearing it, lvling it and getting used to it.

Let's face it, this game is all about best utilizing the tools acquirable and/or attainable, and now bst is be a good dd and die, or too weak and possibly survive.

SE is either clueless or trying to get people to quit and try their new MMO. Well, I would rather play WoW, and I am not going to, because, well, I hate WoW... So, I am going to play FFVII, read some books and watch some movies. I'll check back in a few days and see if it's fixed, but we know SE, so yeah, not gonna happen, try and have fun and sorry to you other bsts out there. Really sorry to you new ones, at least I am used to it lol.

Olor

09-17-2015, 01:32 PM

I guess it's time to put all my BST gear on my mules. I could have dealt with it if they just nerfed pet moves back to the total crap they were before. At least then I could still derp around on BST like I used to, solo stuff, etc, but this just ruins the job completely.

Ulth

09-17-2015, 02:04 PM

What I don't understand is why the existing range worked just fine for 12 years and now suddenly its a problem.

They wanted bst to engage in combat but painted themselves into a corner with their previous adjustments and statements. Right now they are thinking that if bst is forced into danger they will put down charmer's merlin and actually fight, but they won't. They should have either required ready moves to have 1000 tp to be used again or capped ready moves at 15. I honestly think they should have went with the 15 second ready timers. At least that way the master could focus on their accuracy and only worry about the pet during ready moves.

Glennquagmire

09-17-2015, 02:39 PM

I have been playing this game since the release on PS2........ And this has just ruined the game for me completely.... SE why did this range need adjustment when there was nothing wrong with it to start? Bst have pets so their pets can fight for their masters, it doesn't make sense to stand next to a mob of lv120+ for us to die in a instant... Our gear is made to give our pets an advantage, not the other way around.... Please adjust this, I want to be able to play the game I have been enjoying for years now. If this isn't fixed I'll just end up canceling my accounts..... and I don't want to do that because there is still a lot this game has to offer. Fix it, please.

Alhanelem

09-17-2015, 02:52 PM

1.) 2004 - Nerfing Spinning Axe from AOE to single-target.To be fair, AoE WS seem to see much more use now than they did back then. I don't remember any uproar over this back when it happened. In hindsight though it ended up being a belated middle finger when AoE WS and AoE magic spam both became much more common.

2.) 2005 - Allowing charmed monsters to despawn when released.This is one of those "this is why we can't have nice things" things. The actions of a few trolls caused this to happen (BSTs dumping aggroing mobs on EXP parties to wipe them). Even so, I can't say I miss the monster trains of the old days before despawning out of a mob's home area was implemented. (They should have just put in leashing instead)

Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

09-17-2015, 03:46 PM

The range is too short. If i can't be ENGAGED behind the mob and give my pet a command then something is wrong. Needs a slight adjustment to around 7-10 yalms.

Morovich

09-17-2015, 06:55 PM

The range is too short. If i can't be ENGAGED behind the mob and give my pet a command then something is wrong. Needs a slight adjustment to around 7-10 yalms.

I just tested it out yes you can be behind the mob you just need to be in range.

hakrev

09-18-2015, 04:58 AM

I just tested it out yes you can be behind the mob you just need to be in range.

True, but that is also the problem. Your pet engages the enemy at 3-5 yalms away, which means you cannot be at maximum fighting range. If You are doing damage and you are in range of the monster that is perfectly in line with the reasoning they gave for why they implemented this adjustment. ATM, You have 4 choices: A) walk up and kiss the behind of the monster or occupy the exact location of the monster you may miss many commands you thought you issued due to knockbacks and whatnot. B) Swivel around the monster every 10 seconds or so to give commands by mashing your ready macro. C) Re-position your pet to occupy the same space as the monster after both you and your pet have engaged the monster, this will also cause the monster to spew out conal aoe's in every direction and is very much not recommended. D) Stand in front of the monster anyways so that you can actually do your job, but you will get killed by conal aoe's and nasty knockback/stun effects will interrupt you and ruin your day.

We need a 10-15 yalm distance to be able to stand on the other side of the monster. It's called tactics and standing behind the monster is pretty much one of the main one used by all jobs that are kinds squishy dd's which is basically what the player bst is. You're in range, you're doing your job, you're actually engaged, I don't see why this wouldn't be ok? this tiny range is garbage and extremely untested poppycock. We deserve a well-balanced adjustment if there is to be one and this is a crippling blow to the job, you should all be worried for other jobs if they decide to go this route, whats to stop them from crippling other ranged advantages? I think the real good argument is why they think it's necessary to change the job after 12 years? Bst was being used the most because of a lack of players. It's hard to get 6 ppl together to do anything these days and trusts aren't really replacements. So 3 ppl can go in as bst and do the job of 6 ppl and that's basically what SE has been gearing the game for the past year or so. So tell me how is crippling one of the solo-ish jobs good for the game when the game is winding down to solo only? There is no reason for this, it's a late stab at the few remaining ppl what 12-15k across all servers atm (many of those multiboxing accounts). The problem SE was that YOU failed to merge the servers in a reasonable amount of time. That is the real reason that ppl were bst'ing up all the content. Had you merged, ppl would not have been forced to use bst as they had. Luckily we'll soon get merges, but still this is a very intense nerf and probably too big of one for many players who adore playing beastmaster. I personally will do just fine with it cuz bst isn't my main or anything, i got friends and content will go just as smoothly as it always has, but I really feel for the main bsts, they did not deserve this and I know several small shells revolving around bst mechanics that are going to implode because of this :( None of us should be be happy about it as this doesn't fix anything. Jobs that died to nms will still die to nms that's why they weren't allowed to come before that's why they still wont be allowed to come. People will range kill with rangers/cor/smn/blu and have a rune fencer or pld tank it as they always have. It's the small shells, the brother/sister groups and three man teams that will suffer. Just get used to seeing more merc'ed content now. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer :(

dasva

09-18-2015, 09:34 AM

Actually, Corsair has to get in range at times, Geomancer has to become the equivillent of rambo at times and blue mage is always in range as is DRG and PUP (they have a pet). I get what you mean but.....it's pretty clear the main reason for this change. Be grateful they didn't focus an ENTIRE SET OF CONTENT around screwing you over like they did to anyone who isn't a piercing, non nuking specialist back during ToAU+ era.

Well not sure I'd consider twice every what is it 8.5 minutes is quite the same for cor. A lot of fights will be over and even if they weren't rolls can have over twice the range that bst ready moves do.

Geos often don't go in though and when they do they can idle in full defensive gear most the time and not worry about the loupon for the most part.

Blu yeah for most of it's stuff though they do have some ranged. But a lot of that is they melee and in fact melee really well.

Drg does but their pet also has huge innate DTs, granted large buffs to the drg, their heals them and well they have always been designed to be a melee though sometimes a lol one while bst has been pushed for it's pets for awhile now and so the crazy builds you had involved weapon swapping and losing tp which kind of discourages meleeing... on the other hand not doing it lowers your pets dmg by over 33% plus having to spend so much time using ready lowers your dps as well by a lot. I mean yeah if they jugs got an innate what 30% DT, and keeping it out gave the master a bunch of ja haste and attack and def then yeah it would be more similar.

Pups can and if they are doing things endgame send the auto in and use maneuvers from afar. In fact I don't there even is a range at all for that. I've certainly done it far enough away I couldn't see the mob

As far as the ToAU comparison it's sort of the opposite. That was mostly the overwhelming preference for merits other jobs got the nod in actual endgame. While this doesn't really change anything for cping unless those crazy hard new ones change things but does make it less desirable for the actual content.

What I don't understand is why the existing range worked just fine for 12 years and now suddenly its a problem.

Probably because for 12 years using ready was a dps loss for the pet never mind the master and bsts were 99.9% solo (a large portion of the earlier years with charmed pets even) so no one paid them any attention. Now that ready and the job is actually useful all the people who hadn't played it until recently think bst being at range is a new thing

dasva

09-18-2015, 09:50 AM

#2 was anti MPK measure though. So it does hurt BST..but it was done purely because said BSTs loved to MPK people on purpose with releasing aggresive high level enemies next to low level parties or to try to hinder certain fights like some ground kings back in the day.
.
Well bst wasn't the only reason and it wasn't even really specifically charmed mobs so much as non nms not near there spawn area because all kinds of people would train things (who remembers the death roulette of trying to enter some zones?) and yeah bsts would also sometimes charm pull stuff and despawn. It just had the unfortunate effect of hitting legitimate bst play

Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

09-18-2015, 11:22 AM

I just tested it out yes you can be behind the mob you just need to be in range.

Bullshit! Maybe on some small mobs like rabbits and crabs. Any bigger mob you will not be able to issue commands at all. On big Boss mobs, forget it completely. You can melee but you wont be able to issue commands unless you stand right next to your pet. Get knocked back or pet/boss adjusts which they do a lot then you need to keep adjusting too finding the "Sweet spot". It has become a game of trial and error or just stand on top of your pet.

The range is so short i have to constantly adjust and try multiple times to issue commands during fights.

This is annoying and needs to be changed.

Olor

09-18-2015, 02:07 PM

Seriously can the bst haters at least admit they overdid this nerf? We should at least be able to solo.

Kensagaku

09-18-2015, 02:37 PM

...Why are we repeating things in two different threads? Seriously? Spamming's just going to get the threads locked and no progress made. Answer once, leave it at that.

That being said, I agree with this being a poor choice of range. Something more akin to swapping SMN and BST's ranges would have been more tolerable; having to run in and out might put us at risk, but that's where our choice of timing comes in. Sure, we're going to lose DPS, but at least we're not nearly as useless as we are now. Because of our need to gear for two instead of one, the way things currently are, BST is unplayable. Either your pet dies quickly, leaving you with rather weak damage, or you die, leaving you with no damage. Either you hit, meaning your pet misses and does less damage, or your pet hits, and you miss and do less damage. We are in desperate need of hybridized gear, and a slight range increase so that we don't have to stand directly on top of our pet to do things.

Fynlar

09-18-2015, 03:21 PM

It seems pretty silly to put this sort of limitation on BSTs only, and not SMNs and PUPs.

Honestly, at this stage of the game's life, it was pretty silly to do this, period.

kylani

09-18-2015, 09:02 PM

Bullshit! Maybe on some small mobs like rabbits and crabs. Any bigger mob you will not be able to issue commands at all. On big Boss mobs, forget it completely. You can melee but you wont be able to issue commands unless you stand right next to your pet. Get knocked back or pet/boss adjusts which they do a lot then you need to keep adjusting too finding the "Sweet spot". It has become a game of trial and error or just stand on top of your pet.

The range is so short i have to constantly adjust and try multiple times to issue commands during fights.

This is annoying and needs to be changed.

This was my experience as well, and I was meleeing WITH my pet the whole time, not trying to run in and out to do TP moves. This is purely spiteful.

Elexia

09-18-2015, 10:45 PM

It seems pretty silly to put this sort of limitation on BSTs only, and not SMNs and PUPs.

Honestly, at this stage of the game's life, it was pretty silly to do this, period.

SMN had issues (for more severe than BST ever did) for the longest and they finally got them in a good spot over the years. PUP had it's own set of issues (largely attachment availability as well) and after adjustments was put in a nice spot. Why would they put limitation on SMN and PUPs? SMN had range problems for so long and let's not even get into perp cost and treating them more as a back up healer in the very early years.

kylani

09-19-2015, 01:02 AM

Fynlar

09-19-2015, 01:05 AM

SMN had issues (for more severe than BST ever did) for the longest and they finally got them in a good spot over the years.

SMN had a lot of desirability for many endgame events for a while thanks to Perfect Defense.

Tell me when BSTs have ever been desired for content by anyone except other pet jobs.

Why would they put limitation on SMN and PUPs?

Why would they put one on BST?

Alhanelem

09-19-2015, 01:17 AM

SMN had a lot of desirability for many endgame events for a while thanks to Perfect Defense.It wasn't all that cool being known for our 2-hour and nothing else.

Arthos

09-19-2015, 01:21 AM

I just want the old range back. Anything else it not acceptable.

Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

09-19-2015, 02:11 AM

SMN had issues (for more severe than BST ever did) for the longest and they finally got them in a good spot over the years. PUP had it's own set of issues (largely attachment availability as well) and after adjustments was put in a nice spot. Why would they put limitation on SMN and PUPs? SMN had range problems for so long and let's not even get into perp cost and treating them more as a back up healer in the very early years.

SMN has had no issues at all for years now. They even get their own personal end game gear and plenty of rings. On SMN i am never in any danger, even before the now ridiculous range.

BST is now broken because the gear is one sided:

If i augment my end game gear for melee my pet can't hit the mobs.
If i augment my end game gear for my pet then i can't hit the mobs.

You can't have it both ways, SE

Argosy Armor Set (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Argosy_Armor_Set) Not a single pet stat on it. Not a single path for Pet stats.
Lustratio Armor Set (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Lustratio_Armor_Set) Not a single pet stat on it. Not a single path for Pet stats.
Rao Armor Set (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Rao_Armor_Set) One pet Path. Not enough Accuracy for either pet or Beastmaster to hit 1100+ needed for endgame.
Emicho Armor Set (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Emicho_Armor_Set) 2 Pet Paths. Pet or Beastmaster can hit 1100+ accuracy needed for endgame.

I have been a BST (and SMN) since the beginning of the game when BST would still charm. They forced BST to be like SMN with jug pets and i accepted it and adjusted my gameplay. I started a Mythic for BST and now SE ruins the job completely. I want to change my Mythic now. If i can't do that or they don't adjust this ridiculous change i will let my subscription lapse. There are plenty of other games out there.

bazookatooth

09-19-2015, 02:12 AM

It wasn't all that cool being known for our 2-hour and nothing else.

Except that during that entire time, no one wanted BST for anything, period. There was no reason to nerf any of these jobs. Despite the hyperbole on this forum claiming that everything is BST onry, none of these jobs are as popular as BLU or THF.

Jile

09-19-2015, 02:20 AM

In theory it would be nice to be able to draw my axes in battle and contribute from the master-side but no gear is designed with master and pet both in mind, at the same time. Please, simply undo the range-nerf as at this stage of the game I don't want any developer time wasted trying to make BST usable again after forcing us to play 100% differently than we (ever) have.

Many other things need developer attention. The fact BST is powerful once an hour on relevant content isn't enough of a reason to ruin the job in 100% of situations. Please just restore the ranges to what they were pre-nerf and lets move on to more important things needing addressed before we lose precious developer time.

Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

09-19-2015, 02:32 AM

I just want the old range back. Anything else it not acceptable.

I would be more than happy with a 10-15 yalm range instead of this ridiculous 5 yalm nonsense.

Olor

09-19-2015, 02:43 AM

I would be more than happy with a 10-15 yalm range instead of this ridiculous 5 yalm nonsense.

I wouldn't be. We still can't gear for both master and pet. If they want us to engage they have to make us stop choosing which of us is going to whiff.

Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

09-19-2015, 03:03 AM

I wouldn't be. We still can't gear for both master and pet. If they want us to engage they have to make us stop choosing which of us is going to whiff.

15 yalm was SMN range before this ridiculous change so you would still have to run in but you need to time it. It's very doable while 5 yalms is just not doable either engaged or running in.

bazookatooth

09-19-2015, 03:43 AM

15 yalm was SMN range before this ridiculous change so you would still have to run in but you need to time it. It's very doable while 5 yalms is just not doable either engaged or running in.

Summoner does stupid high damage every 30 seconds. Bst does avg. Damage every 10 seconds. You can't run in and out in any meaningful way.

Arthos

09-19-2015, 04:24 AM

I wouldn't be. We still can't gear for both master and pet. If they want us to engage they have to make us stop choosing which of us is going to whiff.

Being able to engage is ok, but beeing forced to is not.

Melee is alot more fun on other jobs, Beastmaster is, well, the king of beasts. And as such it's fun to through it on stuff, perform some actions with your beast and feel the power of it.
It's a bit boring in today's bst groups, yes, but solo or lowman it was fun and rewarding.
The range is part of it.
And this aspect is broken for me now, completly. You are in a cage now, not a master anymore.

... this besides all technical facts.

Keido

09-19-2015, 05:59 AM

Olor

09-19-2015, 06:03 AM

Please don't insult other players.

Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

09-19-2015, 07:37 AM

Malthar

09-19-2015, 07:55 AM

I got it. Add a 1200 jp gift that increases sic/ready and reward distance to 20'. The career bst's already have 1200 while the bandwagons only went to 100 and wouldn't care to spend the time to go up to 1200.

Jile

09-19-2015, 08:41 AM

Best thing ever...

And when they tell you NIN can only cast spells when you are 24 yalms away because your too powerful being able to use shadows near a mob... that would be the best thing ever right?

Taking a normal function and making it unusable is not the best thing ever, its poor design and needs repaired. BST is not playable for anything of value after this nerfdate and it needs undone.

bazookatooth

09-19-2015, 08:47 AM

I can see you live in a fantasy world. If BST needs 3 Buffers to be viable then it is broken. 3 Slots in a party just to give BST and Pet a chance at actually hitting the Monster. Do you know how ridiculous that is? Even with your fantasy setup of COR, GEO and BRD you will not hit anything on Zi'tah T2 NM's. Either the BST or the Pet will whiff not to mention they will be without a pet and dead in under 5 minutes.

Your fantasy setup might work for CP parties but not for end game content.

Not to mention that replacing one of the BSTs with a BRD and / or a WHM is a decrease of 33%~ in damage.

Arthos

09-19-2015, 09:25 AM

Best thing ever...

Hardcore BST players are already adjusting and picking up new ways to play. Bandwagoner's are falling off or attempting to really adjust. If you all truly love the job so much as you claim you do then you can adjust and figure out a way to work the system.

Try BST BST COR GEO WHM BRD You can melee and fight with your pet. You just cant be lazy and unprepared anymore and beat any content by never dying. I know you might have to learn what pets do what instead of Blackbeard Randy or Scissorleg Xerin spam everything. Its false that you cant play the job anymore and its false that it was always intended as a solo job. This is or was a MMORPG if your not sure what that acronym means look it up. Good BST will and can find spots in parties that work. Think outside the box.

I also think the change to SMN was stupid but then I melee on SMN so I guess I am weird.

There will always be ways. But do they make sense? If you have whm cor geo brd you would take bst x 2 as DD? This is totally outside the box, here you are right. Would rather fill up the spots with 2x Blu and get powerful light SC with CDC back to back + its much safer. Magic barrier, barrier tusk, saline coat, ...all can be set while still having awesome damage output. Not to mention mighty guard. But maybe its "Hardcore" to go the inefficient route, what do i know.
Learning about pets? Seriously? You mean stuff like elemetal resistance, sc properties, damage type i'd assume. This is occassionally good to know, yes. But mostly tiger and grasshopper simply pulls ahead. That's why you see them so often.
I agree, Bsts can still find spots in party, but only on lower content. Like a D battlefield or a unity, above that it gets hairy. Reason see above.

At the end i think you also might have to learn a bit about the game mechanics before you want to teach everyone, what is possible and what not. And how we have to accept a job breaking adjustment because we love the job. And if we don't we do not love it? It's really weird.

Fynlar

09-19-2015, 10:09 AM

It wasn't all that cool being known for our 2-hour and nothing else.

Still beats nothing.

The bottom line is that if BST was all you had to bring to the table, you likely weren't getting many events cleared.

Andro

09-19-2015, 10:34 AM

Best thing ever...

Hardcore BST players are already adjusting and picking up new ways to play. Bandwagoner's are falling off or attempting to really adjust. If you all truly love the job so much as you claim you do then you can adjust and figure out a way to work the system.

Try BST BST COR GEO WHM BRD You can melee and fight with your pet. You just cant be lazy and unprepared anymore and beat any content by never dying. I know you might have to learn what pets do what instead of Blackbeard Randy or Scissorleg Xerin spam everything. Its false that you cant play the job anymore and its false that it was always intended as a solo job. This is or was a MMORPG if your not sure what that acronym means look it up. Good BST will and can find spots in parties that work. Think outside the box.

I also think the change to SMN was stupid but then I melee on SMN so I guess I am weird.

Well, I have played BST a lot during the good old days, and I have a few things to say. If this job was never intended as a solo job, then why did SE do nothing for how long to force it into a party? They could have made adjustments to this job and made it into what they "intended" a long, long time ago. Instead, BST was pretty much The preferred solo job. Why, in fact, I chose it as a main. I think I was in all of 5 or 6 parties til 75 for exp, maybe 2 weren't all BST. I can only remember 1.

Secondly, BST and DRG are the only jobs I get enjoyment playing most of the time. As DRG has pretty much been ignored and lol'd since I started playing, I rely on BST to get things done. It isn't that I cannot find ways to make it work if I have to, it's that I shouldn't have to, and this update/nerf makes the job unplayable to me. I have breifly tried twice, and it's aggravating, annoying and just plain pisses me off. It isn't Beastmaster anymore, they should change the name to Beastslave. That range is ridiculous. If me playing the job is no longer enjoyable, I should find some way to make it work and do it anyways? Get real man. That is one high, high horse my friend.

Besides that, not a viable job for so much content now, pretty much useless.

Alhanelem

09-19-2015, 01:37 PM

I also think the change to SMN was stupid but then I melee on SMN so I guess I am weird. Rest of your comment notwithstanding (hardcore BSTs are complaining about this too,not just "bandwagoners"), it's not that weird. The problem BST faces (SMN faces it as well, it's much less of a problem for PUP) is that it's difficult to find a setup where either your pet or yourself won't wiff too much on anything that matters. Most gear doesn't provide accuracy for both, food is one of the few things that does. If you can get enough accuracy, usually you're compromising your pet's effectivness in some way.

But what it all boils down to is these changes are mostly a message from SE: "BST get up close or GTHO, SMN stay far away or GTHO." Neither of these things are good messages. People should be able to play in whatever style that suits them, as long as it doesn't totally break the entire game.

machini

09-20-2015, 01:51 AM

Rest of your comment notwithstanding (hardcore BSTs are complaining about this too,not just "bandwagoners"), it's not that weird.

It's not just BSTs who are complaining. I have BST at 15, it's been 15 for years, and I'm complaining about the nerf. 'cause it was a bad idea. Good intentions, maybe, but a bad idea.

If SE wants people to do things other than spam one specific job constantly, they should do something that rewards players for NOT doing cookie cutter stuff. I've thought of an idea for instanced content that would work, I think, and could probably be made to work with force popped NMs:

Each time the content is entered/popped, the server makes a note of what jobs are being used. Just simple internal counters for each content, each one gets incremented once for each player on a job. When the content is cleared, the server compares the party composition to the most used jobs for that content, and then, the fewer jobs are in that 'most used' list, which would probably be top 6 or 8, the drop rates/drop quality increases.

People who want to spam idiot-proof fail-safe strategies like PLD with RNGs, or all BST, or whatever is 'the correct way' to do content can still clear the content. But people who go in with odd job combinations and still manage to clear the content get more and/or better rewards.

This would either force people to accept that half the strategies they use are NOT optimal strategies, or even, dare I say it, FUN strategies, and change their tactics up if they want to get the increased rewards. And it would also keep a constant (in theory) shift in the meta-game as far as job combinations for content goes: if everyone is doing one or two strategies that represent the majority of clears, with the same jobs, those will be the baseline reward rates for drop rates and loot quality. So there will be an impetus for people to find and use other strategies that do not use those job compositions. However, once those strategies are found, and widely used, those will become the baseline, and there will need to be another 'shift', either back to the old strategies, or to new ones.

It might eventually set up into a cycle, but at least it provides incentive for the community to not rehash stale, boring ways to do content.

Arthos

09-20-2015, 10:12 AM

Alhanelem

09-20-2015, 11:59 AM

It's not just BSTs who are complaining. I have BST at 15, it's been 15 for years, and I'm complaining about the nerf. 'cause it was a bad idea. Good intentions, maybe, but a bad idea.

If SE wants people to do things other than spam one specific job constantly, they should do something that rewards players for NOT doing cookie cutter stuff. I've thought of an idea for instanced content that would work, I think, and could probably be made to work with force popped NMs:

Each time the content is entered/popped, the server makes a note of what jobs are being used. Just simple internal counters for each content, each one gets incremented once for each player on a job. When the content is cleared, the server compares the party composition to the most used jobs for that content, and then, the fewer jobs are in that 'most used' list, which would probably be top 6 or 8, the drop rates/drop quality increases.

People who want to spam idiot-proof fail-safe strategies like PLD with RNGs, or all BST, or whatever is 'the correct way' to do content can still clear the content. But people who go in with odd job combinations and still manage to clear the content get more and/or better rewards.

This would either force people to accept that half the strategies they use are NOT optimal strategies, or even, dare I say it, FUN strategies, and change their tactics up if they want to get the increased rewards. And it would also keep a constant (in theory) shift in the meta-game as far as job combinations for content goes: if everyone is doing one or two strategies that represent the majority of clears, with the same jobs, those will be the baseline reward rates for drop rates and loot quality. So there will be an impetus for people to find and use other strategies that do not use those job compositions. However, once those strategies are found, and widely used, those will become the baseline, and there will need to be another 'shift', either back to the old strategies, or to new ones.

It might eventually set up into a cycle, but at least it provides incentive for the community to not rehash stale, boring ways to do content.
I don't think punishing people for using popular strategies is the best approach here.

machini

09-20-2015, 01:27 PM

I don't think punishing people for using popular strategies is the best approach here.

Please reread what I said. People who continue to use popular strategies would have the same drop rates and drop quality they always did. People who use unpopular strategies would receive increased drop rates and drop quality.

Under that system, people could continue to do things exactly the way they have been doing them and never notice the change, unless their strategy became unpopular, in which case they would see their loot improve.

This isn't punishing people who use cookie-cutter strats. It's rewarding people who don't.

machini

09-20-2015, 01:30 PM

To give a possible example with possible values, let's say for each job in your party/alliance that is not one of the 8 most popular jobs, drop rates go up 10%.

So if you have an entire party of unpopular jobs, and you clear something where the normal drop rate for an item is 20%, that goes up from 20% to 32%.

That's not punishing people for doing what's popular and tried and true and tested. That's rewarding people for doing stuff differently.

Alhanelem

09-20-2015, 03:20 PM

Please reread what I said. People who continue to use popular strategies would have the same drop rates and drop quality they always did. People who use unpopular strategies would receive increased drop rates and drop quality.
That's not punishing people for doing what's popular and tried and true and tested. That's rewarding people for doing stuff differently.

This isn't punishing people who use cookie-cutter strats. It's rewarding people who don't. I know what you said. That's still a punishment. You're telling people that to get the best drop rates, they have to change their team comp. I know you see it as a bonus, but a bonus for doing something can also be seen as a penalty for not doing something. Don't single me out here, you know very well that if they did this, there would be people complaining that they're forced to not play the job they want to play because what they want may not drop if they do.

I realize also that you're proposing something dynamic, where if playstyles change, what will constitute atypical will change and what will give or not give the bonus will change. It's not a terrible idea, but it will probably result in a rotation of cookie cutter builds instead of just one- Use one build til it stops giving the bonus, change the team comp, use that til it stops giving the bonus, repeat. And what if there are very few viable team comps due to a fight's mechanics? Then nobody can get the "bonus."

I don't think we should mess with drop rates or tell people what team comps to use at all. That's not what's broken here, if anything's broken at all. We're talking about a probably unnecessary balance change for one job because it was being used in certain counters in a possibly unexpected way. That's a flaw of the content itself, not the job, because it hasn't been a problem in the years leading up to this point. The content should be made by SE knowing what sorts of strategies may be possible. I realize with their low budgets these days they might not be able to test as many team comps, but this is something that should have been anticipated.

Olor

09-22-2015, 03:07 AM

Can we get a comment from the devs? Do they realize what funny thing they did there? And maybe have some plans to overthink that?
It is my favourite game and i think they mostly do a good job. I also see the balancing problems and i can imagine how hard it can be to do the right in this matter.
But this adjustment is just wrong, in many ways. You cannot do this to that job, cannot let the master run after the dog. It's like putting a warrior in a tutu. You know... the core.

At the very least they have to recognize that pets have their own hate lists and run around making it pretty well impossible for the master to do anything but run around. It's ludicrous.

I got it. Add a 1200 jp gift that increases sic/ready and reward distance to 20'. The career bst's already have 1200 while the bandwagons only went to 100 and wouldn't care to spend the time to go up to 1200.

I am not a bandwagon BST, I don't even have 100 JP yet. I barely ever have a chance to play for a long time and when I do it seems like JP parties want you to already have most of your JP before you get JP.... I don't understand it. So I slowly solo the things and I think I have like 20 now.

Just fix the range, it's ludicrous.

machini

09-22-2015, 03:47 AM

I know what you said. That's still a punishment. You're telling people that to get the best drop rates, they have to change their team comp. I know you see it as a bonus, but a bonus for doing something can also be seen as a penalty for not doing something. Don't single me out here, you know very well that if they did this, there would be people complaining that they're forced to not play the job they want to play because what they want may not drop if they do.

I realize also that you're proposing something dynamic, where if playstyles change, what will constitute atypical will change and what will give or not give the bonus will change. It's not a terrible idea, but it will probably result in a rotation of cookie cutter builds instead of just one- Use one build til it stops giving the bonus, change the team comp, use that til it stops giving the bonus, repeat. And what if there are very few viable team comps due to a fight's mechanics? Then nobody can get the "bonus."

I don't think we should mess with drop rates or tell people what team comps to use at all. That's not what's broken here, if anything's broken at all. We're talking about a probably unnecessary balance change for one job because it was being used in certain counters in a possibly unexpected way. That's a flaw of the content itself, not the job, because it hasn't been a problem in the years leading up to this point. The content should be made by SE knowing what sorts of strategies may be possible. I realize with their low budgets these days they might not be able to test as many team comps, but this is something that should have been anticipated.

As it stand right now, very few people get to play the job they want, unless that job is PLD, COR, WHM, GEO, BST, or RNG. Throw in the occasional thief whose only purpose and reason for being there is to run in, hit the mob once, and run out.

Do you know how much new content I have done as a DNC? Vagary, Sinister Reign? Absolutely zero, I get verbal abuse for even asking if people will take a mythic dancer. Even for job point parties. Nevermind that I can put out an insane amount of damage (I've been doing job point parties for people in my LS. With just me and a single GEO, we can get 30~40 job points an hour, without COR rolls), nevermind that I have good survivability, or any myriad of other considerations. "DNC is a **** job" and I am a "**** player for playing it" and I "wasted a mythic" on a "**** job". These are all things I have heard before. I am routinely turned down for content that I can duo, or, sometimes, solo. I have no need for any more Rem's 1-5s, as I have around a hundred of each last time I check, but I'm not above joining a PUG who needs help for a N run (which I can solo) or a D run (which I can duo with a PLD or WHM), because DNC "isn't a DD job" and is a "**** job" and "loldnc".

You do understand right now that part of the reason there's a "problem" with BST is that now people very rarely want anything but BST? The vast majority of shouts for DDs I see are for BLU and BST, and BLU seems to only be useful for capacity points parties.

You might think my system is a 'penalty' -- you're wrong. What is a penalty is playing one of the roughly 15 jobs in this game that are completely useless for most content, not because they're actually useless for the content, but because no one will take them.

My system would at least provide an incentive to mix up what jobs you take occasionally, and it would reward people for doing content with the more than 7 jobs.

Rwolf

09-23-2015, 02:20 AM

There has definitely been a witch hunt for BST simply because they became an overly popular job. I've heard a lot recently about "good they are a solo job" and "a pet shouldn't be out damaging me" and a bunch of other nonsensical vitriol. Where was all this rage when SE announced before any changes that they wanted pet jobs to be the top damage because of the added maintenance of a pet? I actually heard more of the playerbase being thrilled for BST.

When they announced the distance change. I was fine with being pulled into a range, but not this close. This was a really intense nerf. BST pet AI does its own thing when there are multiple targets and it is especially painful on large targets to have to be right beside the pet essentially to activate abilities.

I tried to do Legion on BST this past weekend and after a few attempts was like nope I'll jump on BLU. The size of the mobs + my pet switching aggro frequently, forcing me to chase it down or constantly mash for it to attack my current target is a bit much.

This game has gone through many bandwagon phases but BST has such an overwhelming level of toxicity behind it. I don't even see reasoning in counter arguments. Just a lot of "suck it up babies and adapt" type comments that I've never really seen behind any nerf before.

Do I think there were some adjustments to be made? Sure. But I think it was a little bit more complicated than a blanket nerf. I think as it was said, had more to do with content making players adopt safe strategies and DD balancing in general.

Olor

09-23-2015, 02:23 AM

This game as gone through many bandwagon phases but BST has such an overwhelming level of toxicity behind it. I don't even see reasoning in counter arguments. Just a lot of "suck it up babies and adapt" type comments that I've never really seen behind any nerf before.

This is what I don't understand. And frankly - if I was a dev, I wouldn't be doing what people with that sort of attitude were calling for.

Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

09-23-2015, 05:58 AM

I just leave this here.

http://i.imgur.com/jpS4sRJ.jpg

Alhanelem

09-23-2015, 07:34 AM

You do understand right now that part of the reason there's a "problem" with BST is that now people very rarely want anything but BST?This doesn't even bother me that much because for years and years BST has been the black sheep of the FFXI jobiverse. Not popular, weak outside of solo, and on top of that people hated BSTS because of the power they used to have over EXP parties (dumping mobs on EXP parties they didn't like, BST armies taking a year to kill HNMs while everyone stands and watches, etc), which might have something to do with the JP reaction. BST deserved a chance to be good, but seems like as soon as people realize it can be useful, it gets crapped on. Since it went on largely unmodified without being popular for a long time, to me, it's the content that's to blame for the situation.

You might think my system is a 'penalty' -- you're wrongNo, I'm not wrong- it's subjective without any right or wrong (Think glass half empty vs glass half full). Any "bonus" can be seen as a penalty for those not getting said bonus, especially when the lack of bonus comes from the job they like to play just happening to be part of a popular strategy and not through any fault of their skill or knowledge. To me, a bonus is something that is earned for some sort of accomplishment- in most other contexts a bonus to the person that obtains it is seen as a penalty to the person who can't obtain it. There is not much accomplishment in using a team comp that is less than the most popular, as generally the popular team comp in my experience is the one that clears the content the fastest and not necessarily the one clearing it the most easily. Most fights have many viable team comps that don't get used only because they won't win as swiftly.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't think using a team comp that isn't "cookie cutter" is something that should be rewarded with better drop rates. It especially shouldn't be a bandaid for balance issues, like "oh, we know X Y and Z jobs suck for this content, so if you beat the content with it, we'll give you more stuff". Instead, they should either make the content so XYZ jobs don't suck on it, or they should fix the problem with the job that makes them suck on it.

If they implemented your suggestion, the people who main the jobs that happen to be popular for a lot of content will be upset that just becuase their job is popular, they have to take lower drop rates than people who play less common jobs.

machini

09-23-2015, 04:00 PM

Frankbrodie

09-23-2015, 06:18 PM

That picture Skyrant posted isn't even the worst situation I've seen.

I think it might be to do with Taru's being smaller, but on a Taru mule I was in a direct straight line with my pet in front of the mob.
Me at probably close to minimum distance. I had run in after setting pet on the mob. (A large pot, so mob size might be a factor too.)
And my tiger pet behind me at what would be maximum melee distance we can assume.

And I got the out of range message.

Fynlar

09-24-2015, 12:51 AM

By definition, the baseline is the baseline. If you make 1000 dollars a month, that is your base pay. If you get bonus pay for doing something that benefits the company particularly well, that is a bonus. You are not penalized for not going above and beyond and out of your way to do something.

I don't think you have a good grasp of the mentality of MMO players.

If it's an event where rare/valuable drops are desired, whatever offers the best drop rate *will* become the "baseline" and anything else will be deemed "inferior"; that's just the way the playerbase is

It goes with pretty much anything else in the game where something can be rated against others. If you are not the best DD, it means you're a terrible DD, etc.

Alhanelem

09-24-2015, 01:02 AM

By definition, the baseline is the baseline. If you make 1000 dollars a month, that is your base pay. If you get bonus pay for doing something that benefits the company particularly well,

Like I said, to me, there's a difference from being rewarded for good performance and skill and being rewarded for something that has nothing directly to do with skill and performance. Also, I could be denied a performance bonus at a job just because the boss doesn't like me and not because I'm not doing a good job, which makes it seem like a penalty.

machini

09-24-2015, 10:59 PM

Like I said, to me, there's a difference from being rewarded for good performance and skill and being rewarded for something that has nothing directly to do with skill and performance. Also, I could be denied a performance bonus at a job just because the boss doesn't like me and not because I'm not doing a good job, which makes it seem like a penalty.

If you think beating, say, an Avatar II fight on VD with WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR isn't harder than doing it on PLD RNG RNG WHM BRD COR, I don't think we have anything further to discuss.

I don't think you have a good grasp of the mentality of MMO players.

If it's an event where rare/valuable drops are desired, whatever offers the best drop rate *will* become the "baseline" and anything else will be deemed "inferior"; that's just the way the playerbase is

It goes with pretty much anything else in the game where something can be rated against others. If you are not the best DD, it means you're a terrible DD, etc.

Yes, I'm a mythic DNC, and I routinely tell everyone else in my linkshell to not even bother leveling DD jobs, they're all **** compared to me and to not even bother trying.

Oh wait, I don't do that.

That sort of mentality that you are possessed of is part of the problem with this community.

machini

09-24-2015, 11:14 PM

Actually, I'm gonna go ahead and continue to bite here.

Examples, continuing with Avatar II fights, since these are where I have actually had people get upset that "wrong" party set ups do better than the "correct" ways.

Virtually every Avatar II D run I have been on that I have not personally put together has been PLD RNG RNG WHM BRD COR. The very few that were not that were various strategies relying on Scherzo which rarely seemed to work for one reason or another.

PLD RNG RNG WHM BRD COR works. It is kind of hard to screw up. It's also really slow, and not very good, and doesn't get a high TH value for good rewards.

So people start trying other set ups. Maybe they eventually realize that a DD/RUN DD/RUN DD/RUN WHM BRD COR set up with DDs who understand the concept of -DT gear works, and faster, and you can even bring along a THF for high levels of Treasure Hunter. So now we have things other than PLD and RNG being taken. Sure, those are probably gonna be mostly MNK and SAM, knowing the community, along with THF, but you will also have the occasional WAR, DRG, or lolDNC. So now have the job diversity rising from 5 jobs, to, still a core of WHM BRD COR, but those remaining three slots can be varied, which means that more people are getting to play more jobs than just the same old thing every time and might actually get to play jobs they enjoy playing and clearing content at the same time than having to play jobs they don't enjoy but are the only thing they can get to clear content on because that's the 'only' way it's done.

So now, once people realize that, wow, you can actually clear those fights with other set ups than the PLD and RNG set up, you have a greater variety in jobs taken. And since everyone is taking WHM BRD and COR still, there will be an impetus to find other things that can fill those slots. Take a good SCH instead of a WHM, GEO instead of BRD, maybe a SMN instead of COR. Mix it up.

So now, not only is their greater variety in what jobs get taken, which means more people get to play the jobs they actually want to play, but they're also getting better rewards for doing that.

There will, of course, be a search for set ups that give the best rewards, but that means that people are purposefully trying to create compositions out of little-used jobs.

Which means that... horrible thought... people are getting to have fun, and are encouraged to try to be new and inventive, and to take those people who play jobs which they previously would have verbally abused them for asking to come as, and trying to find ways to make more and more non-traditional set ups work.

It's become pretty clear at this point that without incentive to do things new, differently, and inventively, we're going to spend the rest of the life of this game doing nothing but throwing the exact same things at content until the servers go down.

Sogoro

09-24-2015, 11:35 PM

I am up for trying out different combinations but I am on during JP prime time.

Alhanelem

09-25-2015, 01:13 AM

If you think beating, say, an Avatar II fight on VD with WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR isn't harder than doing it on PLD RNG RNG WHM BRD COR, I don't think we have anything further to discuss.We can list all kinds of arbitrary job combinations. Some will be "hard" and some will not. But that's beside the point because you didn't say "only stupidly deliberately hard job combinations will award the bonus", you said anything other than the most popular combination(s) will award the bonus. Your example is ridiculous hyperbole.

If only something utterly ridiculous (and probably impossible) like you said would award the bonus, then it would be pointless to have in the first place. There's no way that would have the desired effect.

It's become pretty clear at this point that without incentive to do things new, differently, and inventively, we're going to spend the rest of the life of this game doing nothing but throwing the exact same things at content until the servers go down. We don't need incentives for this. Find like minded people who want to try something different like you and go to town. This isn't even a balance issue- some jobs are better for some fights just by the nature of the fight itself.. If you want to make more job options available, then adjust the fight itself, not the rewards or the jobs.

This discussion doesn't belong in a thread about BST anymore, your suggestion doesn't even have anything to do with that at this point.

Olor

09-25-2015, 02:52 AM

I am not sure what the point is about arguing about a system the devs would never implement (even if they wanted to, I just don't see how)... either way it's not on topic. BST was not OP when we had range. Lots of jobs were getting invited to things. If jobs aren't getting invited - I support buffing them.

But really I just want to be able to have fun on BST again. Current range is NOT FUN AT ALL.

Chrianna

09-26-2015, 01:44 AM

I just tested it out yes you can be behind the mob you just need to be in range.
It all depends on how large the mob is.

Morovich

09-26-2015, 05:29 PM

It all depends on how large the mob is.

Indeed my friend

Gwydion

09-27-2015, 05:32 PM

I sincerely hope we get a response from SE.

Frankbrodie

10-02-2015, 02:17 PM

Mysterious 90 minute maintenance going down right now..

Fingers crossed guys and gals ^^

bazookatooth

10-02-2015, 02:25 PM

Mysterious 90 minute maintenance going down right now..

Fingers crossed guys and gals ^^

I'm guessing it has to do with campaigns that ended today etc. but sure, fingers crossed.

Frankbrodie

10-02-2015, 03:47 PM

Yeah no such luck.. F8 and ready range remain the same.

bazookatooth

10-02-2015, 05:29 PM

Yeah no such luck.. F8 and ready range remain the same.

THey might make some other change to compensate and save face, but it's very unlike SE to ever admit that they were wrong and reverse a change. I'm guessing we'll see some wacky new pets or some new gear that is supposed to make this not suck so bad (But probably won't) instead of an adjustment to the distance.

kylani

10-02-2015, 07:25 PM

THey might make some other change to compensate and save face, but it's very unlike SE to ever admit that they were wrong and reverse a change. I'm guessing we'll see some wacky new pets or some new gear that is supposed to make this not suck so bad (But probably won't) instead of an adjustment to the distance.

With the game ending, I think they just don't care. I'm giving up on checking. It's depressing visiting the forums daily anyway.

Arthos

10-02-2015, 07:43 PM

With the game ending, I think they just don't care. I'm giving up on checking. It's depressing visiting the forums daily anyway.

I think so too. They will loose some players but they can always say it was due the game ending now.

zax

10-02-2015, 08:15 PM

/targetbnpc guys iys a new command they gave us use that instead of f8 its way better anyway

bazookatooth

10-03-2015, 12:12 AM

/targetbnpc guys iys a new command they gave us use that instead of f8 its way better anyway

No it isn't. f8 is one key. /target is a bunch of keys. It's nowhere near as good. Not only that, but if you play with a game pad, the select button now functions this way, so you have to put down the controller to use that command. It's complete garbage and serves no purpose. Targeting NPCs in your own party was never an issue to begin with. This is a problem disguised as a fix.

Jile

10-03-2015, 02:32 AM

So...... To get back on topic for this thread.

SE community reps, please respond if the dev team "has plans" to repair the damage they did to BST?

Devs made a mortal wound to BST instead of a minor change to the aoe-pet dmg multiplier, which would not have taken all of the designed playability and fun out of the job.

SE community reps, please respond.

Arthos

10-03-2015, 03:27 AM

I don't see the dmg as the problem. In my opinion is it more the high base acc and att of pets, compared to other jobs. If you put any other freshbaked DD in reforged AF, he can probably do not more than a "Easy" Battlefield. Do the same with a new Bst and he can be DD on a "Difficult" Battlefield. Statwise, he still needs the -recast on rdy moves, but that's no problem.
So it's pretty OP on early endgame or in fights without buffs.

For me the solution is pretty simple, take away some acc and att of pets, therefore adjust rolls and songs to give it them back on high NM's, just treat them like any other DD statwise. And combine buffs for pets and players in the same roll/song to let them team up with each other easier. The dmg is and should be behind equal built melee, so give the old range back.
Bst could be a pretty good addition to a party for adds, decent DD and as an offtank.

Jile

10-03-2015, 03:50 AM

I have three accounts with varying states of gear. My spark geared mule account can do decent dmg to fodder and absolute garbage dmg to anything of value including unity nms. Mule account literally does 1/2 my dmg.

So no, a bandwagon BST can not do remotely similar dmg to a career BST.

To add even more clarification, BST is my main but I did an SR run with a BST that had spent 100's of millions of Gil on their BST and I have not as I don't play enough these days to have the same level of gear and I was doing around half of her dmg. I looked like a joke.

So in short no, bandwagons are not OP, they were perhaps mediocre at best vs a properly geared player.

The update made BST unplayable and unenjoyable. It is destroyed and SE needs to take back the Nerf.

Virtually any changes would have been better than to break our job abilities.

Oh and as for a bandwagon BST winning a difficult, I say that's very unlikely as the acc even with +1 food is trash without amazing pet acc gear.

Arthos

10-03-2015, 03:59 AM

Jile

10-03-2015, 04:11 AM

Perhaps I misunderstood.

I will say though with my 119set and using the best pet-benefitting food, I'm still wiffing in difficult AA fights, for example. My mule account can't even land enough hits to place her in aoe danger range so she sends pet and walks away rest of the fight because she's useless other than some added dps from pet, a trust contributes more.

For a BST that has spent 100's of millions of Gil, they won't have acc issues, but the rest of the BST out there do.

The complaints happened because epic BST's were desired over other dd's because it was less curing for healers. Now that BST are mp sinks there is no place for them in endgame.

At this stage of the game SE should be designing ways all jobs are needed for end game, not making anyone useless.

bazookatooth

10-03-2015, 05:34 AM

I think you misunderstand me.
I'm speaking of the accuracy and attack situation of bst compared to other DD, in early endgame. Bst has a big advantage here, play around with /checkparam on your different bsts and melee. There's no way such a low built bst wins solo a D battlefield. But he's able to hit there and deal damage, what other jobs can't do with the same gear effort.

Perhaps on low level content, but anything difficult is going to require the same Skirmish or better gear for BST as it does for melee jobs. There is a thing called "(/checkparam)" in the game and this can easily be tested. You also forget that everything costs money on BST. So even if that BST hasn't spent the gil to build reforged, abjuration or skirmish gear, he's paying for that on the back end because it costs him 2k -10k+ per pet he calls and another 2k per theta or 20k per mulsum every time he heals his pet. Even on my extremely well geared bst, I've spent over 100k on a single T3 fight. So oddly enough, the BST who doesn't spend the time / money to gear the job right away just ends up paying more to actually play the job. BST isn't a job that you can half ass and be good. You are paying to be good one way or another.

Arthos

10-03-2015, 06:01 AM

Perhaps on low level content, but anything difficult is going to require the same Skirmish or better gear for BST as it does for melee jobs. There is a thing called "(/checkparam)" in the game and this can easily be tested. You also forget that everything costs money on BST. So even if that BST hasn't spent the gil to build reforged, abjuration or skirmish gear, he's paying for that on the back end because it costs him 2k -10k+ per pet he calls and another 2k per theta or 20k per mulsum every time he heals his pet. Even on my extremely well geared bst, I've spent over 100k on a single T3 fight. So oddly enough, the BST who doesn't spend the time / money to gear the job right away just ends up paying more to actually play the job. BST isn't a job that you can half ass and be good. You are paying to be good one way or another.

Did you really just repeat what i said as argument against what i said?
I said EARLY ENDGAME! EEEEEAAAAARRRRLLYYYYYYYY ENDGAME!!!!!!! Got it now? Also that /checkparam..... Really... Order is Read-> Think -> Answer. Anything else blocks any discussion.

bazookatooth

10-04-2015, 02:04 PM

Did you really just repeat what i said as argument against what i said?
I said EARLY ENDGAME! EEEEEAAAAARRRRLLYYYYYYYY ENDGAME!!!!!!! Got it now? Also that /checkparam..... Really... Order is Read-> Think -> Answer. Anything else blocks any discussion.

WTF is early endgame? Are you saying we should nerf a job in real endgame because when you gear it poorly, it does better at outdated content than other poorly geared jobs? In what world does that make sense? and FYI, BST pets have no access to madrigal. Other DDS do. But that doesn't even matter because Skirmish armor with acc augments is stupid easy to get. You can literally get it by standing at a book and clicking things and then upgrade it with accuracy for the value of a couple dynamis runs. You can pretty much a make a whole set in one day. There is absolutely no reason for anything to be balanced against people who don't have that.

Arthos

10-04-2015, 08:46 PM

WTF is early endgame?
WTF is real endgame?

Are you saying we should nerf a job in real endgame because when you gear it poorly, it does better at outdated content than other poorly geared jobs?
I'm saying the jobs should be balanced in every stage of Endgame. It may be outdated content for you, but for a good number of players it's actual content.

In what world does that make sense?
In a balanced MMO world.

and FYI, BST pets have no access to madrigal.
Yes, that's probably the reason pet stats are so high.
They need to be, due to limited support.

Skirmish armor with acc augments is stupid easy to get.... There is absolutely no reason for anything to be balanced against people who don't have that.
Bst will still be ahead. Even with suboptimal augments.

SE did very well with Bst adjustments before that range nerf. We got good pets, and a good adjustment to the ready charges.
Also the high pets stats are a must as it is now. But they give bst a significant edge in any low buffs situation, and there are many of them. On top of that it was safe and easy to play in groups.

So the possible solution i like most is to have the player rolls and songs also on pet. To team up with other jobs easier. And get away from these "x-type job only"-burn.
The price Bst would need to pay for this are some acc/att numbers on pet.
Good news is you can also get them back easily, alone with your trusts. This opens up many new playstyles for Bst and parties in general.
If you give it now the old range back, maybe with some bonus dmg when closer to pet, it becomes a well rounded job to play. You can even engage, with a 15s timer only, but some players might enjoy it. The one who doesnt, dont need to do it, they just continue using their 10s timer.

bazookatooth

10-05-2015, 12:18 AM

WTF is real endgame?

It's the most difficult / rewarding content currently available. Right now it would probably include high tier escha NMs, new sky gods, AV, etc. I don't know what early endgame means. I honestly can't think of anything that you should be doing at 99 before skirmish that is difficult enough to even care who has a higher parse. Are you talking about soloing dynamis in level 75 gear or something?

I'm saying the jobs should be balanced in every stage of Endgame. It may be outdated content for you, but for a good number of players it's actual content.

Every job has been stronger or weaker at certain points in it's progression throughout the games history. It doesn't matter as long as things become balanced once you get near level / gear caps because now more than ever, that is where players spend most of their time and fight the most difficult content. Do you honestly care if SAM outparses THF at level 81?

In a balanced MMO world.

That doesn't exist...

Bst will still be ahead. Even with suboptimal augments.

This again.... No. Other jobs can deal better damage. Survival is the only factor at this level. SAM, DNC, BLU, THF, BLM, GEO, SCH etc. blow bst out of the water damage wise. They just die too easily. That's why SE didn't touch bst damage output and instead opted to make it annoying to play. Player HP has not scaled well since 99.

So the possible solution i like most is to have the player rolls and songs also on pet. To team up with other jobs easier. And get away from these "x-type job only"-burn.
The price Bst would need to pay for this are some acc/att numbers on pet.
Good news is you can also get them back easily, alone with your trusts. This opens up many new playstyles for Bst and parties in general.
If you give it now the old range back, maybe with some bonus dmg when closer to pet, it becomes a well rounded job to play. You can even engage, with a 15s timer only, but some players might enjoy it. The one who doesnt, dont need to do it, they just continue using their 10s timer.

That would be great. I think SE is afraid of pets with crazy haste and defense though.

Nyarlko

11-18-2015, 05:30 PM

HopefulNAPlayer

11-18-2015, 05:46 PM

While letting party buffs affect pets sounds great, I have a feeling it would require a reworking of every party buff in the game to make it work which sounds like FAR more effort than SE is willing/able to put in at this point in the game to be feasible.

A possibly simpler solution (which would "only" require a reworking of our pets) would be to have our pets stats scale off ours. This is the only method that would allow us to gear ourselves for melee w/o gimping our pets into uselessness, but would either require a reworking of a ton of gear that had stuff like Pet Acc/Atk/etc into Player Acc/Atk/etc or the understanding from the playerbase that all of that would now be only half as useful as it once was and acceptance that a good chunk of our current gear would have to be replaced.

This still doesn't address the glaring issue that has been around since day one: BST has no job abilities that are useful for self-combat. No buffs. No offensive abilities/attacks. No bonuses for whacking mobs alongside your pet... Take away the pet and all BST can do is auto-attack and weaponskill.

You are 100% correct. To add to your statement, Beastmaster shield skill caps @300 and @316 with 8 Shield Skill merits. However, our job points continue to augment the TP returned by Fencer and to make matters worse: Beastmaster has NO worthwhile shields to use.

If SE added a shield that gave Pet TP Bonus, Ready Delay-, or even Ready Distance +5 yalms, we'd be better equiped to suddenly play as a moderate-DD or an average "Front-line job"

However, as it stands today, as you said, Beastmaster can only auto-attack and perform weaponskills. That's it. :(

Ambiant

11-20-2015, 06:14 AM

Sorry, but as a bst swapping weapons every 10 secs, I NEVER have the TP to WS, maybe once in a blue moon. Sure I can swing at the mob, but big wup, I can't really do much else on high end as I need my pet over my own stats.

Oh and I tried legion. UG SUPER large sized mobs and tiny pet command radius. Used cricket to ae the first 4 rooms. Doable but annoying as hell out of range bs with pet next to me ffs. Even worse especially when a trust provoked and yanked mob away or pet ran off to chase down something nuking it.

5th room...went.... horribly. hehe. I was doomed....

Please, give us a gift or something to increase distance. This way it benefits the veterans that spend time and effort into their job.