[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[Morovich]

Reducing the range Beastmasters can use Ready, Sic, Run Wild & Reward? I mean you have to be somewhat close to them already to use the abilities, Why reduce it further? What's wrong with the range at the moment?

[Secondplanet]

Reducing the range Beastmasters can use Ready, Sic, Run Wild & Reward? I mean you have to be somewhat close to them already to use the abilities, Why reduce it further? What's wrong with the range at the moment?

They are reducing it as beastmasters are playing their jobs as they were summoners but with more attack and defense on their pets. Not to mention you wear heavy armor which gives you more defense yourself makes almost 0 risk for you to do almost anything in the game.

[Jile]

Reducing the range Beastmasters can use Ready, Sic, Run Wild & Reward? I mean you have to be somewhat close to them already to use the abilities, Why reduce it further? What's wrong with the range at the moment?

SE is intentionally making Beastmaster unplayable for relevant content with one Nerf-date. A few people begged SE to make BST unplayable because their respective jobs were not being asked for during events rather than boosting dmg for their own jobs.

BST are not playing like they're SMN, they're playing like the solo-jobs we have always been. This distance has been 'required' for BST to be playable from day one, changing it will fundamentally change how BST is played - if its played at all. It's a major mistake on SE's part and I hope they reconsider before they make yet another mistake making unnecessary adjustments.

The nerf-date has nothing to do with balance, it has to do with making the half dozen people that complain on forums happy. No jobs in 2015 should ever be nerfed into unplayability like this, jobs that are weak should be getting boosts so all can be played enjoyably with whatever playtime remains as SE loses whats left of its remaining loyal playerbase.

[Secondplanet]

This distance has been 'required' for BST to be playable from day one

Not sure how you use to play bst back in the day but i and everyone else i knew who played it always fought with the pets they charmed. They gave bst heavy armor for a reason. The new content has more danger due to constant aoe attacks but you can't expect to have i think it was put "A pet with the HP of a mantra monk galka, the weaponskill damage of a samurai, the damage taken of a paladin and the attack power of a warrior" all from a safe distance with no draw back.

[Jile]

Not sure how you use to play bst back in the day but i and everyone else i knew who played it always fought with the pets they charmed. They gave bst heavy armor for a reason. The new content has more danger due to constant aoe attacks but you can't expect to have i think it was put "A pet with the HP of a mantra monk galka, the weaponskill damage of a samurai, the damage taken of a paladin and the attack power of a warrior" all from a safe distance with no draw back.

It's hard to explain this to someone who never soloed something like Narasimha or Merrow No. 5 where BST never engaged as they did not want any enmity. That said, BST cannot be useful at the same time a jugpet is useful, nor can we survive dmg when our gear is set for pets to survive. Lack of understanding like yours about BST is precisely why the nerf is happening. SMN will continue to stand out of range in safely while BST will be unplayable from update forward on targets of any challenge and value.

[Secondplanet]

It's hard to explain this to someone who never soloed something like Narasimha or Merrow No. 5 where BST never engaged as they did not want any enmity. That said, BST cannot be useful at the same time a jugpet is useful, nor can we survive dmg when our gear is set for pets to survive. Lack of understanding like yours about BST is precisely why the nerf is happening. SMN will continue to stand out of range in safely while BST will be unplayable from update forward on targets of any challenge and value.

If you want to convince SE to allow summoners to wear heavy armor then please do, i would be glad not to wimp out behind everyone else complaining i have to choose between pet and owner.

[Jile]

BST have to choose. Def or atk or acc on either pet or themselves, and only one really of those six variables up at a time. This update proves only that whomever is doing this update does not play BST. Neither BST nor SMN belong on the frontline for relevant content, period.

[Olor]

If you want to convince SE to allow summoners to wear heavy armor then please do, i would be glad not to wimp out behind everyone else complaining i have to choose between pet and owner.

Heavy armor means jack squat. It's the stats on the armor that matter - and if BST's pets are going to hit anything or not die in a couple hits, BST need to wear armor that augments their pets - but armor that augments their pets sucks for the master - meaning BST has to either have a useless pet - or be useless themselves.

If the change included the change that all stats on armor applied to our pets and our pets got buffs like players - then I would be fine with it - but it doesn't. It just makes BST useless for all content.

[bazookatooth]

If you want to convince SE to allow summoners to wear heavy armor then please do, i would be glad not to wimp out behind everyone else complaining i have to choose between pet and owner.

Summoners don't need to be near the NM and after the update, they will be even further away. Why do they need heavy armor?

And why is it okay for summoners to have "A pet with the HP of a mantra monk galka, the weaponskill damage of 10 samurai, the damage taken of a paladin and the attack power of a warrior The buffs of several jobs, healing and infinite lives all from a safe distance with no draw back"?

[Secondplanet]

Summoners don't need to be near the NM and after the update, they will be even further away. Why do they need heavy armor?

And why is it okay for summoners to have "A pet with the HP of a mantra monk galka, the weaponskill damage of 10 samurai, the damage taken of a paladin and the attack power of a warrior The buffs of several jobs, healing and infinite lives all from a safe distance with no draw back"?

I said the heavy armor bit in a ironic term.
As for the rest of your comment i'm surprised my brain didn't liquefy from reading how stupid that sounds. Avatars cannot tank anything endgame without dying in a couple of hits unless i stack nothing but pet damage taken even then i'm limited in options, while i do admit we can do a big single target attack still fails in comparison to what beast can do with their AoE pet attacks, Our buffs are mostly still stuck at 75 stats, what healing are you talking about? you mean carby, levi and garuda's bp's? so am i limited to just 3 avatars then to appease your statement? As for draw back there are many to summoners. I like all other jobs bar beastmaster have to carry multiple sets of equipment to do our job, i have to watch mp to make sure i can do attacks and i gain enmity from every command i issue even assault.

[Ataraxia]

When this update take place a lot of things will happen. Bst will suck so bad that it's not worth playing anymore. A lot of people might stop playing FFXI. Since it's actually a nerf to bst SE and the team should just come out and say it's a nerf. It doesn't make sense at this point because they allow this Bst range to run for 7 and 8 years and they are taking it away now.

Keeping pet alive is already difficult and gil consuming so it's gonna be really bad if you gonna keep the master alive and the pet. It be very tough for bst to avoid Mijin Gakure and astral flow. It be difficult to fight big dragons since some of them can AOE Breakga, Sleepga and other bad TP move.

Smn is getting more buffer when they are already a good job. Smn is no where the same as bst since we need food to keep our pet alive and that cost gil. Smn have free pet and they can summon it as many times as they want while bst have to wait on timer like call beast. SMN can also buffer party up to 3 or 4 different buffer and Bst cannot do that. Ranger too is a safe job and they are no different from Bst. Bandwagon of ranger have been running for 2 years or more so it's time they give Bst a 1 year run before adjustment. :/

So for all the bst player out there whom spend 100+ million on gear Augments items I hope you continue playing. Maybe the nerf won't happen and If it does than bst ranged is only reduce by 1 or 2 and not -10. I hope I am wrong about this and the update is not that bad but good.

[bazookatooth]

As for the rest of your comment i'm surprised my brain didn't liquefy from reading how stupid that sounds.

Likewise.



Avatars cannot tank anything endgame without dying in a couple of hits unless i stack nothing but pet damage taken even then i'm limited in options,

Oh, you mean like the 40 million in Pet DT- and regen gear I use for endgame and still have my pets die? Yeah, I really feel for you. /smh


while i do admit we can do a big single target attack still fails in comparison to what beast can do with their AoE pet attacks

Patently false. The only thing that pet AOE attacks are good for is killing fodder. Single target ready moves are better damage over time. Ifrit on the other hand is happy to cap the damage meter at 99,999 on end game content.


Our buffs are mostly still stuck at 75 stats,

Our buffs are stuck at... they don;t exist.


what healing are you talking about? you mean carby, levi and garuda's bp's? so am i limited to just 3 avatars then to appease your statement?

Yes, those are 3 more healing pets than bst has and you are subbing a job with cures and refresh.


As for draw back there are many to summoners. I like all other jobs bar beastmaster have to carry multiple sets of equipment to do our job, i have to watch mp to make sure i can do attacks and i gain enmity from every command i issue even assault.

You really have no idea whatsoever how bst works do you? I have just as much gear for BST as I do for SMN. I have different sets for healing, attacking, tanking, regen, dt-, physical ready moves, magical ready moves, my own dt-, attack, regen etc sets and a slew of other things I'm probably forgetting. Just like I do on my summoner. It's virtually identical really.

And for what it's worth, I like many other beast masters will probably be doing the exact same things I do on bst on my summoner after this nerf, so get ready to defend yourself when people start complaining about all the summoners ruining the game.

[Jile]

I said the heavy armor bit in a ironic term.
As for the rest of your comment i'm surprised my brain didn't liquefy from reading how stupid that sounds. Avatars cannot tank anything endgame without dying in a couple of hits unless i stack nothing but pet damage taken even then i'm limited in options, while i do admit we can do a big single target attack still fails in comparison to what beast can do with their AoE pet attacks, Our buffs are mostly still stuck at 75 stats, what healing are you talking about? you mean carby, levi and garuda's bp's? so am i limited to just 3 avatars then to appease your statement? As for draw back there are many to summoners. I like all other jobs bar beastmaster have to carry multiple sets of equipment to do our job, i have to watch mp to make sure i can do attacks and i gain enmity from every command i issue even assault.

LOL.......
You think BST don't have multiple sets of gear? I'm going to presume your brain sincerely did liquify as that's hilarious stuff. A good BST may have 100 plus pieces not to mention jugs, foods, pet foods etc.

As SMN was one of my orig 75's I know you carry alot to play well, just saying don't presume a good BST doesn't.

[Secondplanet]

Then where is all this complaining about how the job is going to die cause you need to get closer? If you have the gear to get close to do a command then use it and get over it. This complaining makes me think you want your cake and to eat it too as you want all the benefits of heavy armor, all the -DT for pet and still be able to use all your other sets at the same time.

[Jile]

Then where is all this complaining about how the job is going to die cause you need to get closer? If you have the gear to get close to do a command then use it and get over it. This complaining makes me think you want your cake and to eat it too as you want all the benefits of heavy armor, all the -DT for pet and still be able to use all your other sets at the same time.

I'll repeat. With some highlighting.


BST have to choose. Def or atk or acc on either pet or themselves, and only one really of those six variables up at a time. This update proves only that whomever is doing this update does not play BST. Neither BST nor SMN belong on the frontline for relevant content, period.

We want to be able to play and not die because we use a job ability. If you have to use pdt/mdt on self to run in for Bp but now your pet does 200dmg Bp instead of 10000 and causes you to either die or come close every Bp, then we'd be closer to the same issue.

[Singforu]

Hahaha at all these BST tears. Love them. And the arguments of how if they get near a mob it will kill them.... as if all other DD don't have that same problem... special snowflakes the lot of you.

[Malthar]

Protey, weren't you with us when we were fighting the Acrimonious "Dullan" (private joke) when it did it's move that deals massive damage and I was the only one that died? And everybody laughed at my bst tears. And yes, I was in -50 pdt gear, just like everyone, and had protect / shell on and still took significantly more damage than everyone else on my bst. So no, all other DD's don't have it as bad as bst does. BST needs some serious help if it's to get close to the mob.

[Jile]

Hahaha at all these BST tears. Love them. And the arguments of how if they get near a mob it will kill them.... as if all other DD don't have that same problem... special snowflakes the lot of you.

Remember that when you're the one that has to keep us standing LOL

[Draylo-]

Protey, weren't you with us when we were fighting the Acrimonious "Dullan" (private joke) when it did it's move that deals massive damage and I was the only one that died? And everybody laughed at my bst tears. And yes, I was in -50 pdt gear, just like everyone, and had protect / shell on and still took significantly more damage than everyone else on my bst. So no, all other DD's don't have it as bad as bst does. BST needs some serious help if it's to get close to the mob.

The Dylan!!!

[Alhanelem]

SE is intentionally making Beastmaster unplayable for relevant content with one Nerf-date. A few people begged SE to make BST unplayable because their respective jobs were not being asked for during events rather than boosting dmg for their own jobs.Now, as a carveat: I do not play BST and I have no opinion of its power in the game right now and don't have the capability to fairly judge it, so I won't.

That said: It is poor balancing policy (in ANY game) to boost everything else up to the strongest thing. You don't balance a game by buffing everything that isn't the strongest. Nobody enjoys nerfs, but mass buffings cause more problems than they solve most of the time. It also accelerates power creep, because as soon as someone finds another imbalance (which is a certainty), that means another round of buffings and more power creep in a neverending cycle. Not only that, but it's less costly (less work) to adjust one job than 21 others.

[dasva]

Hahaha at all these BST tears. Love them. And the arguments of how if they get near a mob it will kill them.... as if all other DD don't have that same problem... special snowflakes the lot of you.How many of those DDs have to also worry about a pet at the same time? Now how many those don't have things like built in pet dts and such?

[bazookatooth]

Now, as a carveat: I do not play BST and I have no opinion of its power in the game right now and don't have the capability to fairly judge it, so I won't.

That said: It is poor balancing policy (in ANY game) to boost everything else up to the strongest thing. You don't balance a game by buffing everything that isn't the strongest. Nobody enjoys nerfs, but mass buffings cause more problems than they solve most of the time. It also accelerates power creep, because as soon as someone finds another imbalance (which is a certainty), that means another round of buffings and more power creep in a neverending cycle. Not only that, but it's less costly (less work) to adjust one job than 21 others.

The thing is, BST isn't the strongest at anything really except not dieing in certain situations. Other jobs can do more damage, buff, etc. better. They are literally taking away the only thing that makes this job relevant. They could have scaled back the damage output (even though it's already not as good as SAM, SMN, BLM etc.) or lowered the pets HP, or changed about a billion other things to balance it against the people who don't know how to use indi-vex etc. on their melee parties or magic burst on their mage jobs without completely crushing the whole role of the job in end game.

Let's be honest. This doesn't mean that people are suddenly going to start shouting for a bunch of Dancers, DRKs, WARs, Monks and DRGs to come waste their pops by wacking away at Packiset and getting one shotted. It does absolutely nothing for balancing those other jobs. They still won't be invited because many jobs still need adjustments regardless of what happens to BST and many people who play them still think they can just throw a bunch of offensive buffs up and throw some melee jobs at anything. So the whole idea of nerfing one job so that you don't have to buff a bunch of others is not gonna work. And besides that, SE's whole plan the last few years has been intentional power creep. we've basically doubled in level over the last few years. Power creep is SE's game plan.

[Morovich]

I don't know about it myself Haven't really done a whole lot with Beastmaster except cap it at 99. Just have to be closer now to your pet execute those commands, How will that affect battles and such?, I don't know so I cannot say, I guess see how it all works out.

[Alhanelem]

Power creep is SE's game plan. There's a difference between power creep that occurs as a part of natural progression and that which occurs from balancing. Only former is intentional (And let's face facts- Even with audolin, FFXI has considerably less of a power creep issue compared to typical MMOs which alluse straight up linear progression. What we have in XI is sort of a hybrid- But even then, item levels in XI are meant to approximate real ones, and the highest ilvl has held steady for quite some time). I don't mind vertical progression much only because it usually means less inventory stress and fewer items needed to complete a kit- but loot is more interesting and fun overall in XI's approach)

[Zeargi]

I play both SMN and BST, while there's been a few comments thrown at SMN, I'd like to say, that SMN is tied with having the worst DEF in the game. But that being said, Even though BST is a Front-line DD, they are in a separate field of other jobs and have to maintain their pets with much higher difficulty of the 3 true pet jobs (DRG doesn't count, I'm sorry.) The only one that has it close to BST is PUP, but they have multiple things they can do to recover their pet much faster than a BST can. If they're going to go ahead with this change then either Call Beast or Bestial Loyalty needs to have it's timer reduced GREATLY, in fact it should be the same time as 'Deus Ex Automata'. And BST should also get the Max HP Bonus Trait, which is extremely fitting for those that are Tamers of Wild Beasts, and the DEF Bonus up to Tier III. But that's just my humble opinion.

[bazookatooth]

There's a difference between power creep that occurs as a part of natural progression and that which occurs from balancing. Only former is intentional (And let's face facts- Even with audolin, FFXI has considerably less of a power creep issue compared to typical MMOs which alluse straight up linear progression. What we have in XI is sort of a hybrid- But even then, item levels in XI are meant to approximate real ones, and the highest ilvl has held steady for quite some time). I don't mind vertical progression much only because it usually means less inventory stress and fewer items needed to complete a kit- but loot is more interesting and fun overall in XI's approach)

The difference in damage output between a person in straight 119 delve gear vs. even skirmish gear is big. The difference between 119 delve gear and escha gear is huge. Regardless of what the ilvl says it is. Occasionally SE will put in filler gear that closely matches other gear so that people have options as to what event they choose to focus on to gear their jobs, but for the most part, it has been a straight progression. SE stated that this was it's intention going forward. There was much debate about whether they should continue to raise the level cap and this was the route they chose. Gear progression. My SAM now has +30% WS damage in gear. I'd hardly say that is accidental or unintended. And the route they've chosen to go is clearly not because bst was stronger than they intended. If it were, they would have lowered the pets damage output. It's because a bunch of spiteful babies cried about not being able to solo the same things that beast could and this appeared to be the easiest way to shut them up. The unfortunate side effect is that now not only can bst no longer solo, but it's worse at party content than other jobs as well.

[Alhanelem]

The difference in damage output between a person in straight 119 delve gear vs. even skirmish gear is big.While this is true, the difference between the first level 75 gear released and the gear released just prior to the level cap rise is large as well. Even with no change in level cap, you can't go 5 years without ever finding upgrades, people would get bored and quit. FFXI just did it a lot more measured and slowly.

[bazookatooth]

While this is true, the difference between the first level 75 gear released and the gear released just prior to the level cap rise is large as well. Even with no change in level cap, you can't go 5 years without ever finding upgrades, people would get bored and quit. FFXI just did it a lot more measured and slowly.

True, but it still negates the argument that jobs should be nerfed instead of buffed.

[Alhanelem]

True, but it still negates the argument that jobs should be nerfed instead of buffed.
No, it doesn't.

You do not solve balance problems by buffing everything. Even if you want to argue that power creep isn't a good reason, there are others. technical limitations (cielings on values, coding limitaitons) can get in the way and prevent further buffs. When you hit such a cieling, then it becomes impossible to buff everything and now you HAVE to nerf something. Additionally, modifying several jobs to balance one increases the probability of introducing NEW balance issues- Then what do you do? Another round of buffs for everyone? In many other types of games, this isn't even an option, because they have to maintain stats and paramters within certain ranges, which forces nerfs in some cases because there's no room to buff.

Plus the argument that buffing everything else requires a disporportinately large amount of work compared to nerfing the one thing- it costs more and SE has been not doing a lot of things lately because of cost, os it's a very real factor.

The only valid argument for buffing everything else instead of fixing one broken thing is "nobody lies nerfs, everybody loves buffs, so do what people love not what they hate-" Which is an argument rooted in emotion, not sound balancing decisions.

I would like to re-emphasize that I am speaking in general terms here and I'm not specifically commenting on BST or any other one job in particular. This isn't an argument that jobs should never be buffed- It's an argument that buffing is not always the best solution.

Ask yourself what's better: Annoying a few people with a nerf to one class and having a better balanced game, or making people giddy by buffing everything else that isn't up to the same bar but potentially breaking the game more in the process.

[Alhanelem]

I'll provide some exmaples where buffs and nerfs are best practice:

Example 1: Job X has Spell or ability Y that is never used in the game because either a bug or poor attributes of the spell/ability render it inferior to other comparable effects e.g. it's useless. Best solution: Buff the useless thing such that it isn't useless. In this case, the thing(s) that are below par are best upgraded to be meet the expected performance standard.
Example 2: Job X has spell or ability Y that is being used more than anything else in the game because it trivializes an encounter or has unintended effects due to a bug or issue. Solution: Fix the issue or nerf the effect such that

In-context hypothetical example. Suppose people find out that an alliance of black mages can kill anything in the game in one go with three meteors, no other job can do it. Do we 1) Buff every other job such that an alliance of them can instakill a boss? or do we 2) Adjust Meteor so it is in line with the intended parameters? Consider the repercussions of each. If every boss fight becomes trivial by stacking 18 of one job, the game would become boring very quickly and people would quit. If Meteor was nerfed, some black mages would be upset but everybody would be having more fun overall.

Conclusion: Buffing isn't always the best policy.

Ask yourself if there is anything about what is being changed on BST that fits in either of these categories (Because I honestly don't know as I'm not a BST)

[Zeargi]

Ask yourself what's better: Annoying a few people with a nerf to one class and having a better balanced game, or making people giddy by buffing everything else that isn't up to the same bar but potentially breaking the game more in the process.

Except when that nerf never applies to SAM.
I'm all about going outside the box when it comes to strategies, but there's been a few times that SE has been a complete Douche about things, unless it's to SAM. BSTs commands haven't changed for a super long time, but because people aren't 'taking risks,' they are like: 'Nope, can't have that'. Yet they don't blink an eye when SAMs sit back and plink out ranged attacks VS Delve Mobs, even though they're a 'Front Line' job. And further still when THF wants to have access to more Marksmanship WS and higher bolts, they can't for whatever reason, even though they have the Same skill ranking that SAMs do in Archery. Or when all the MNKs H2H got nerfed, etc... I want to see DRK, DRGs, and WARs do more things, but that isn't happening. Often times it isn't the jobs but the CONTENT that's the problem. Mobs with AoEs so huge they still hit you even though you're way outside of even casting range, or Mobs that spam move after move.

[bazookatooth]

Here's the bottom line. BST pets don't do more damage than other jobs. Depending on the target monster, Other jobs like SAM, THF, DNC, BLU, SMN, BLM etc. beat them handily. PLD is still the king of tanks by a million miles on most things bar the occasional magic heavy NM where PLD is still probably just as good as RUN and miles ahead of NIN (Balance needed). BSTs can't heal or buff at all. The one thing BST pets can do better than other jobs, because of their high HP is absorb a lot of damage in a short time (IE. huge AOEs that do like 2,500 damage that would kill the whole front line in one shot). They cannot sustain high damage over time due to them only being capable of healing once a minute. So something that hits quickly and / or for high damage which could be blink tanked by any job /nin and or be continuously healed back by a WHM, would kill a pet due to the length of reward's timer. But they can survive the big nasty one shot AOE moves as long as they don't happen too often. If the paladin dies, the pets generally die quickly afterwards unless the PLD gets back up and grabs hate again (much like PC do). The high HP of the pet is literally the only advantage. By putting the master in range of the same AOE attacks that you were trying to use pets to absorb, you take away the only thing the job has going for it. Another thing that contributes to that problem is the fact that 50% of BSTs pet damage and a large part of the pet's defense come from a few pices of level 75 gear that offer no defensive stats at all for the master. It is literally doing 120-150 content in level 75 -99 gear.

So with that in mind, they could level the playing field by simply raising the HP of Player Characters. It's sorely needed and long over due. NM TP moves have gotten stronger and stronger, but player HP has barely moved. I'm not talking about retooling every weapon skill, Job ability and monster. I'm talking about a couple basic things like HP and defense.

All that's neither here nor there though, because the fact of the matter is there are better ways to do pretty much everything than just throwing BSTs at it and the player base has no one but themselves to blame if that is what's happening. If you read the various "I hate beast master" threads or go to BG, ffxiah etc., You'll see that all the new content is getting smashed by summoners and ,mage parties and many people are doing it just fine with melee groups. This is just the latest in a long line of misplaced nerfs and adjustments that ignore the core problems with the game.

EDIT: Alternatively, they could lower pets HP and the timer on reward, to bring it closer to that of a normal player's functionality. The range thing completely castrates the job.

[kylani]

I'll provide some exmaples where buffs and nerfs are best practice:

Example 1: Job X has Spell or ability Y that is never used in the game because either a bug or poor attributes of the spell/ability render it inferior to other comparable effects e.g. it's useless. Best solution: Buff the useless thing such that it isn't useless. In this case, the thing(s) that are below par are best upgraded to be meet the expected performance standard.
Example 2: Job X has spell or ability Y that is being used more than anything else in the game because it trivializes an encounter or has unintended effects due to a bug or issue. Solution: Fix the issue or nerf the effect such that

In-context hypothetical example. Suppose people find out that an alliance of black mages can kill anything in the game in one go with three meteors, no other job can do it. Do we 1) Buff every other job such that an alliance of them can instakill a boss? or do we 2) Adjust Meteor so it is in line with the intended parameters? Consider the repercussions of each. If every boss fight becomes trivial by stacking 18 of one job, the game would become boring very quickly and people would quit. If Meteor was nerfed, some black mages would be upset but everybody would be having more fun overall.

Conclusion: Buffing isn't always the best policy.

Ask yourself if there is anything about what is being changed on BST that fits in either of these categories (Because I honestly don't know as I'm not a BST)

I don't feel that this is the situation with BST here. It's been proven that other jobs can do the content, and can do it better and faster without BST. The BST strat seems to have been the initial strat to beat the content, so as usual, the player base adopted that as the official 'cookie' cutter strat to start with. From what I've heard from friends, DDs have been frustrated in general by this, and it seems like BST has gotten caught in the cross fire, but my friends enjoy figuring out content vs. following the pack, so they don't seem typical (I always appreciated my friends, but never more than lately).

If this were the case here, using your BLM example, there are other things that could be done rather than insisting BLMs nuke from close range. SE has adjusted resistances to damage in the past, among other things.

[Alhanelem]

I don't feel that this is the situation with BST here. In case I somehow didn't make that clear before, I'm not saying that it is. I'm only saying that anytime something that gets seen as a nerf comes up, it's basically obligatory that people will come in and say "instead of nerfing this, buff everything else!"

Again, I know little of BST or even why this change was made, I'm merely commenting on the inevitable clamor for buffs over nerfs. The fact is sometimes one is appropriate, and sometimes the other is appropriate. I just get the impression that some people don't realize you can't just buff everything that isn't the best.

The only comment I can make about BST itself in regards to this issue is that I'm not really certain what the change is supposed to accomplish. The way it reads almost sounds like its intent was just to annoy people.

[kylani]

In case I somehow didn't make that clear before, I'm not saying that it is. I'm only saying that anytime something that gets seen as a nerf comes up, it's basically obligatory that people will come in and say "instead of nerfing this, buff everything else!"

Again, I know little of BST or even why this change was made, I'm merely commenting on the inevitable clamor for buffs over nerfs. The fact is sometimes one is appropriate, and sometimes the other is appropriate. I just get the impression that some people don't realize you can't just buff everything that isn't the best.

The only comment I can make about BST itself in regards to this issue is that I'm not really certain what the change is supposed to accomplish. The way it reads almost sounds like its intent was just to annoy people.

I thought you were clear, and I liked how you made this a more general balance discussion vs. attacking any job. I started to weigh in with the discussion on balancing generally, but to be honest, with the wide range that Job Points adds, I find balancing hard to discuss, especially in a forum (even on skype with friends it's hard to pin down). So I answered with how I feel about BST in this situation since you said you didn't know about BST. It's not like they suddenly gave BST range. Range is the way we've fought harder content for as long as I can remember, even back to the charming days, when we scrambled like crazy charming mobs to throw at NMs. I guess the reason this annoys me so much is I do almost feel like it was just purely BST hate, not any real sense of balancing the content out.

For me, the only answer I feel comfortable with on balance is, forget what other jobs can do, can I get together with friends and get stuff done with the jobs we enjoy playing, even if it takes some trial and error to figure out.

[bazookatooth]

The only comment I can make about BST itself in regards to this issue is that I'm not really certain what the change is supposed to accomplish. The way it reads almost sounds like its intent was just to annoy people.

Basically a bunch of people were mad that people were using BST in places where they usually would use SAM and they complained until SE decided to do something about it. So SE came up with a change that will make it so that NO ONE wants to use BST for anything. It didn't balance anything. It just made a bunch of haters happy and a bunch of other people pissed off. The funniest part about this is that it won't help front line jobs like SAM at all because RNG, SMN, BLM SCH and GEO still do better damage from a safe distance and no one wants to get near NMs these days. SE didn't look at WHY people are using BST at all. They just shot the messenger.

[Bizniztyme]

Basically a bunch of people were mad that people were using BST in places where they usually would use SAM and they complained until SE decided to do something about it. So SE came up with a change that will make it so that NO ONE wants to use BST for anything. It didn't balance anything. It just made a bunch of haters happy and a bunch of other people pissed off. The funniest part about this is that it won't help front line jobs like SAM at all because RNG, SMN, BLM SCH and GEO still do better damage from a safe distance and no one wants to get near NMs these days. SE didn't look at WHY people are using BST at all. They just shot the messenger.

I don't like the change as much as anyone else but you folks are taking it way out of proportion. All this change does is separate the good BST players from the weak ones. Timing will be everything when it comes to this change, Instead of just standing in one spot and throwing mulsims and rewards and using JA's, you actually have to move. The good BST players will adapt, the ones that can't handle it? You might as well play different job. That will be me. I might just jump to ranger LOL

[bazookatooth]

I'd hardly say that running in and out makes you good. It just makes things annoying. The only pet you can do that with and still put out anywhere near decent damage is the cricket. Any other pet and your'e going to have to stay in range as animation delay and a short ready timer won't allow you to run out.

[Olor]

I don't like the change as much as anyone else but you folks are taking it way out of proportion. All this change does is separate the good BST players from the weak ones. Timing will be everything when it comes to this change, Instead of just standing in one spot and throwing mulsims and rewards and using JA's, you actually have to move. The good BST players will adapt, the ones that can't handle it? You might as well play different job. That will be me. I might just jump to ranger LOL

This is nonsense. With needing to use timers every 10 or less seconds, you can't possibly move in and out of range in any sensible way. BST is dead with this change. There will be not be a single event where it is useful.

[Kensagaku]

Well I wouldn't say that it's -entirely- useless, but we took a major hit for sure. We might have to stagger our Ready time a bit and hold back when we suspect a TP move is coming, or stay in melee and cycle pets out on our timers, but we can still do -something-. Still, it's a nerf that's going to hit us hard regardless of how we can adapt to it.

[Morovich]

This thread may have gotten derailed I was simply asking about why the range to use certain commands was reduced which someone has already answered and couple others as well, but they aren't nerfing the power (DD) of the Beastmaster or the pets you simply have to be closer to your pet to execute certain commands how does that affect power?

After playing My Beastmaster last night and testing some things out I think I can understand why though The range is being reduced.

Also we don't know how much The range is being been reduced until The patch on the 15-16, So till then this is all just assumptions About doomsday for bst and such.

[Bizniztyme]

I'd hardly say that running in and out makes you good. It just makes things annoying. The only pet you can do that with and still put out anywhere near decent damage is the cricket. Any other pet and your'e going to have to stay in range as animation delay and a short ready timer won't allow you to run out.

It will definitely take more skill then just standing in one spot. :)

[Bizniztyme]

This is nonsense. With needing to use timers every 10 or less seconds, you can't possibly move in and out of range in any sensible way. BST is dead with this change. There will be not be a single event where it is useful.

Any job can be useful, it's just people in this game is all about 200% efficiency or no go. That is the problem.

[machini]

Any job can be useful, it's just people in this game is all about 200% efficiency or no go. That is the problem.

It's not even efficiency. It's people who are too stupid to do anything but specific cookie-cutter tactics on fights. Like a couple months back where I was doing Avatar D fights with a party doing PLD RNG RNG WHM BRD COR. It was taking 20-25 minutes to clear the things. I convinced them to let me switch to DNC/RUN, and we started clearing in 5-10 minutes. Then the RNGs went THF and we were not only clearing faster, but getting much better loot out of it, too.

What happens is that some group figures out how to clear content, and whatever it is they do that works, even if it doesn't work as well as other things discovered later, is what everyone does, 'cause that's "how it's done".

The other problem is that too many DDs are complete and total glass cannons and refuse to put on any defensive gear 'cause it might hurt their DPS -- as if being dead half a fight doesn't hurt your DPS.

When new content comes out, and then all anyone will do is use a specific job for it, that job doesn't need to be nerfed. If the job wasn't a problem before hand, but suddenly with the new content it is a problem, it's the content that is actually the problem, and the content that needs to be adjusted.

[bazookatooth]

It will definitely take more skill then just standing in one spot. :)

Maybe. I fail to see how any other DD job is different though. Samurais and monks and wars stand in one spot and hit weapon skill macros. Bsts do the exact same thing only from a different spot. It's not like any of the jobs move around very much during a fight other than maybe SMN, bard or thf. I'm not sure why BST doing that should be some indication of skill or lack there of.

[Singforu]

Maybe. I fail to see how any other DD job is different though. Samurais and monks and wars stand in one spot and hit weapon skill macros. Bsts do the exact same thing only from a different spot. It's not like any of the jobs move around very much during a fight other than maybe SMN, bard or thf. I'm not sure why BST doing that should be some indication of skill or lack there of.

He obviously was referring to having to keep yourself from dying for the brief moment where you have to run in to do the JA for your pet before running back out to the safety of being far away from the NM compared to just not even having to do such actions sitting in safety in the corner hitting your JAs from afar while sipping on tea all day like so many BSTs play nowadays.

[bazookatooth]

He obviously was referring to having to keep yourself from dying for the brief moment where you have to run in to do the JA for your pet before running back out to the safety of being far away from the NM compared to just not even having to do such actions sitting in safety in the corner hitting your JAs from afar while sipping on tea all day like so many BSTs play nowadays.

And this is what I mean. As if it matters where I sip my tea. I do the exact same amount of moving around and button pressing on BST as I do on Monk or Samurai. Stand in front of the NM sipping my tea, pressing the WS macro over and over. You act like where other jobs are standing somehow changes the fact that they are doing nothing but hitting the WS macro over and over.

"Oh... You stand over there and press your button, but I stand over here and press my button... It's WAYYYY harder to press your button over here..."

[kylani]

And this is what I mean. As if it matters where I sip my tea. I do the exact same amount of moving around and button pressing on BST as I do on Monk or Samurai. Stand in front of the NM sipping my tea, pressing the WS macro over and over. You act like where other jobs are standing somehow changes the fact that they are doing nothing but hitting the WS macro over and over.

"Oh... You stand over there and press your button, but I stand over here and press my button... It's WAYYYY harder to press your button over here..."

Well, to be fair, I knew some DDs who actually watched their status bars too. Haste, I need Haste! OMG, I've got Slow!

[bazookatooth]

BST was my first job at level 75, back in 2004, and what I remember about the BST job was <danger> and dying all the time, delevelling and making the 74 to 75 journey again almost daily. The reason our server only had around fifty BSTs at level 75 back in those days, is because nobody wanted to level it, and that was because of the danger and stress inherent in the charm/kite/pin/pet-switching nature of BST.

So the original oldschool BST was all about danger, and the master trying to stay alive in constantly dangerous situations. With the 2010~ change from charmed mobs to Jugpets, Jugpet boosts, Mulsums, the danger element of BST job vanished, suddenly they called these mighty pets that were like Siege Engines and just stood there. This was not what the core BST job was about, and maybe this current distance update is to try and restore at least some of the <danger> and <skill> elements to BST, a job that was originally based entirely on danger and skill.

My memories of BST 2005~ are mostly of me running for my life with my hitpoints in the red. I actually miss those days!
:cool:

That's because you were killing things on bst that normally took a party to kill. Now what happened is SE got rid of charm and replaced it with jugs so that BST could participate in events. And players got pissed because bst was in events.

[Alhanelem]

It's not even efficiency. It's people who are too stupid to do anything but specific cookie-cutter tactics on fights. Like a couple months back where I was doing Avatar D fights with a party doing PLD RNG RNG WHM BRD COR. It was taking 20-25 minutes to clear the things. I convinced them to let me switch to DNC/RUN, and we started clearing in 5-10 minutes. Then the RNGs went THF and we were not only clearing faster, but getting much better loot out of it, too.You start with "it's not even efficiency" but then you write a long description of how you got a party to vastly increase it's efficiency. Wat?

Personally I'm happy to use any combination of party members that can beat the fight. I care little for the amount of time taken per run (as long as we don't time out or almost time out). I feel like a lot of people have forgotten how to have fun.

[bazookatooth]

You start with "it's not even efficiency" but then you write a long description of how you got a party to vastly increase it's efficiency. Wat?

Personally I'm happy to use any combination of party members that can beat the fight. I care little for the amount of time taken per run (as long as we don't time out or almost time out). I feel like a lot of people have forgotten how to have fun.

They're saying that people are just picking X job over all others just because they saw / heard someone else win with it and they never try anything else. They just go with what everyone else does. Not because it's actually the most efficient, but because they saw / heard it worked and decided it must be the best if other people did it. The point of the story about making the party more efficient was to point out that people were trying to do everything with RNG because they don't think for themselves and just did what someone before them did, when they could have done it better using other jobs.

[Allestra]

At this stage of the game (its end basically), its not too bright of se to nerf any job imo.

Its not like ffxi is going strong, and it will only continue to decline when there are no new content updates, I think they need to sit back and see what will encourage ppl to continue to subscribe not what will piss people off.

Just the reality of things.

[Bizniztyme]

Maybe. I fail to see how any other DD job is different though. Samurais and monks and wars stand in one spot and hit weapon skill macros. Bsts do the exact same thing only from a different spot. It's not like any of the jobs move around very much during a fight other than maybe SMN, bard or thf. I'm not sure why BST doing that should be some indication of skill or lack there of.

We are not talking about any other DD jobs. we are talking about BST. Also, it does take some kind of skill to time when you run in to use your JAs or whatever. To some it's going to be easy but I can guarantee to you it will be hard for others. Look at the QQ in this thread alone. One bad move and you could be dead, especially when you're soloing and that's what BST has always been known to do.

If we're all just pressing buttons (like every game every played in existence), Why are there good and bad players? We're all pressing buttons!!!!

[bazookatooth]

We are not talking about any other DD jobs. we are talking about BST. Also, it does take some kind of skill to time when you run in to use your JAs or whatever.

No it doesn't. You use them when the timer is up, or you lose the fight. Everything is on a timer these days. You don't use your weaponskills, the monster doesn't die. Either you use the abilities when they're ready, you die, or you time out.

And yes we are talking about other jobs. If we weren't, there would be no basis to judge BST by. The people who play BST weren't asking for a nerf. The people who Don't play it were. AKA "other jobs". Nobody was like "I don't know how BST works in comparison to other jobs, I just think they should be nerfed because they hang out with sheep!". Even if they were, that would be a dumb way to determine job balance.


If we're all just pressing buttons (like every game every played in existence), Why are there good and bad players? We're all pressing buttons!!!!

FFXI is all about the pregame. The actual physical button press sequences are simple enough as to not matter for the most part. It's not like you have to enter the konami code to do a weapon skill or cast a spell. It's just a button. Gear swaps, macros, strategies etc. are what make or break a battle and those don't happen in the heat of the moment. Those get set up prior to the fight. There is a minimal level of intelligence required to play the game. And that bar is pretty low. People who lack the mental capacity to hit the weapon skill macro when the little bar flashes shouldn't be factored into game balance. And people who do aren't skilled. Most of the skill is in the set up. Going in with the right tools for the job.

And this whole argument is just a poor excuse for being bad at things. If you had the right gear macroed and the right players in your party, you'd know that you aren't missing out on anything by not bringing BST. The strategies for using other jobs more efficiently are all over the net. If you have time to complain, you have time to read them. There's no excuse for being on here complaining about BST other than sucking at the game and / or just being plain spiteful.

TLDR; even if this did separate the good from the bad. How does that benefit anyone? More crappy Bards and WHMs? More crappy sams? Or do you just want them all to quit?

[Bizniztyme]

No it doesn't. You use them when the timer is up, or you lose the fight. Everything is on a timer these days. You don't use your weaponskills, the monster doesn't die. Either you use the abilities when they're ready, you die, or you time out.

And yes we are talking about other jobs. If we weren't, there would be no basis to judge BST by. The people who play BST weren't asking for a nerf. The people who Don't play it were. AKA "other jobs". Nobody was like "I don't know how BST works in comparison to other jobs, I just think they should be nerfed because they hang out with sheep!". Even if they were, that would be a dumb way to determine job balance.



FFXI is all about the pregame. The actual physical button press sequences are simple enough as to not matter for the most part. It's not like you have to enter the konami code to do a weapon skill or cast a spell. It's just a button. Gear swaps, macros, strategies etc. are what make or break a battle and those don't happen in the heat of the moment. Those get set up prior to the fight. There is a minimal level of intelligence required to play the game. And that bar is pretty low. People who lack the mental capacity to hit the weapon skill macro when the little bar flashes shouldn't be factored into game balance. And people who do aren't skilled. Most of the skill is in the set up. Going in with the right tools for the job.

And this whole argument is just a poor excuse for being bad at things. If you had the right gear macroed and the right players in your party, you'd know that you aren't missing out on anything by not bringing BST. The strategies for using other jobs more efficiently are all over the net. If you have time to complain, you have time to read them. There's no excuse for being on here complaining about BST other than sucking at the game and / or just being plain spiteful.

TLDR; even if this did separate the good from the bad. How does that benefit anyone? More crappy Bards and WHMs? More crappy sams? Or do you just want them all to quit?

Man, looks like you just want to argue for no damn reason. All I'm saying is it does require some kind of skill to play the game. The change requires more and if you don't see that it's pointless. I'll leave you to argue with yourself and listen to yourself talk because that seems like that's what you like to do. Good bye.

[bazookatooth]

Man, looks like you just want to argue for no damn reason. All I'm saying is it does require some kind of skill to play the game. The change requires more and if you don't see that it's pointless. I'll leave you to argue with yourself and listen to yourself talk because that seems like that's what you like to do. Good bye.

Because walking back and forth shows skill... Okay, see you later. Remember not to walk and chew gum until you're skilled enough.

OMG. Look at all the crazy skilled people walking back and forth... https://youtu.be/UVpR5NEWQj8

[detlef]

A little bummed by the nerf. I like easy mode.

[Singforu]

And this is what I mean. As if it matters where I sip my tea. I do the exact same amount of moving around and button pressing on BST as I do on Monk or Samurai. Stand in front of the NM sipping my tea, pressing the WS macro over and over. You act like where other jobs are standing somehow changes the fact that they are doing nothing but hitting the WS macro over and over.

"Oh... You stand over there and press your button, but I stand over here and press my button... It's WAYYYY harder to press your button over here..."


One involves getting hit, one does not. I know this might be hard for you to understand, but there are people who do use damage taken sets and the difference between the two situations is one of them, you don't have to.

[Kensagaku]

One involves getting hit, one does not. I know this might be hard for you to understand, but there are people who do use damage taken sets and the difference between the two situations is one of them, you don't have to.

While you're not incorrect, therein lies the big problem for BST, being the only true pet job that is in close range after this update. Damage Taken sets are a thing, but by loading yourself up with Damage Taken so you don't die, your pet becomes vulnerable. BST has the second longest pet recall time (Dragoon has it worse, but our wyverns have plenty of defensive bonuses to make them a bit more survivable), and if your pet is dying faster, that's that much longer that you're completely non-viable as a damage dealer while they're down. BST's -only- role is as a damage dealer, and if we have to be in range to deal damage, we need to be able to receive it in a way that makes us viable. Basically, we need to be able to handle our primary problem of gearing for two people at once.

I'm not against having to be in range to fight. I like the "easy mode" as it were, but I don't have a problem moving into range. I have sets for when I need to engage too. But then if I'm gearing for myself, my pet suffers. If I don't swap my offhand axe for Charmer's Merlin, my Ready timer increases by 50% (from 10->15), and that lowers my overall DPS significantly. If I do swap my offhand axe, then I lose TP every time I use a Ready move, meaning that I can't weaponskill and that I'm basically there to do minimal white damage. If I gear for my own accuracy, my pet loses accuracy. If I gear for my pet's accuracy, I can't hit anything. The problem, again is "gearing for two." If they can address this issue, then I think the problem with having to be in range is severely mitigated.

[bazookatooth]

One involves getting hit, one does not. I know this might be hard for you to understand, but there are people who do use damage taken sets and the difference between the two situations is one of them, you don't have to.

Ready move's require the use of gear that has no DT- for the master. Some of them aren't even iLVL. Same goes for idle sets. Nothing you can do about that with currently available gear. Try again.

[Kensagaku]

Ready move's require the use of gear that has no DT- for the master. Some of them aren't even iLVL. Same goes for idle sets. Nothing you can do about that with currently available gear. Try again.

It would probably help the discussion if you weren't so aggressive about this across multiple threads. I am a BST too as one of my primary jobs, and I don't like the nerf either, but we have to move forward and work towards discussions in which we can make ourselves more viable, not just shoot one another down. Why don't we work on finding ways to improve our upcoming issues, and build up a list of possibilities for the community reps to pass on for examination? While I know it's not likely that the devs will listen to the US/EU complaints, it couldn't hurt to try a more proactive stance.

[Malthar]

Build up a list so that they can shoot each one down in turn with the standard reply of, "We have no plans"?

I already suggested a good shield so that we can actually get within melee range and engage, but they shot that down with, guess what? Yep; "We have no plans."

[bazookatooth]

It would probably help the discussion if you weren't so aggressive about this across multiple threads. I am a BST too as one of my primary jobs, and I don't like the nerf either, but we have to move forward and work towards discussions in which we can make ourselves more viable, not just shoot one another down. Why don't we work on finding ways to improve our upcoming issues, and build up a list of possibilities for the community reps to pass on for examination? While I know it's not likely that the devs will listen to the US/EU complaints, it couldn't hurt to try a more proactive stance.

This is from the first page. But that doesn't stop the person above from insinuating that I could just wear DT- gear and everything would be fine (while attempting to insult my intelligence at the same time).

BST have to choose. Def or atk or acc on either pet or themselves, and only one really of those six variables up at a time.

I thought I was pretty nice all things considered. If you browse back through the thread, you'll find that Myself and other's have made several suggestions as to how to fix things. I can multi-task.

[Kensagaku]

Build up a list so that they can shoot each one down in turn with the standard reply of, "We have no plans"?

I already suggested a good shield so that we can actually get within melee range and engage, but they shot that down with, guess what? Yep; "We have no plans."

You offered an absolutely broken shield. We are not a tank job by default, so why are we getting DT II -10% (something seen on only RUN and PLD gear)? Adding that as well as Fencer+2, Ready-5, and Pet: DT-10%? You can't tell me that's not broken at all on an offhand slot. x.x Also shields aren't the only answer; the DT is a good start (though idk about DTII unless you want to turtle up to the point your acc hits the floor), but we need more offensive options. Odds are being in the frontline is going to force us to be /NIN so that we can mitigate some of the AoE, and Fencer really isn't worth it giving up as much as we are for the pet. Even if we couldn't swap axes because we want to keep TP, I'd rather keep my Kerehcatl for the Pet: Attack/Acc or a Pet: Acc/DT/TP Bonus axe offhand.

Ideally, there are a few things that could make this work out a little better. As you noted with your shield, shared pet/master hybrid gear is a must. I'd like to see BST gear (and possibly PUP or DRG too, as sharing stats with their pets could be helpful) turn into more hybrid sets such as Acc+18, Attack+18 / Pet: Acc+15, Attack+15 on a slot along with the usual stat vomit. (just throwing out numbers) Or things like PDT-5% / Pet: PDT-5% on the same gear, etc. If we can hybridize our sets so that instead of gearing for two separately we can gear for both equally, it would make this change very passable.

[bazookatooth]

You offered an absolutely broken shield. We are not a tank job by default, so why are we getting DT II -10% (something seen on only RUN and PLD gear)? Adding that as well as Fencer+2, Ready-5, and Pet: DT-10%? You can't tell me that's not broken at all on an offhand slot. x.x Also shields aren't the only answer; the DT is a good start (though idk about DTII unless you want to turtle up to the point your acc hits the floor), but we need more offensive options. Odds are being in the frontline is going to force us to be /NIN so that we can mitigate some of the AoE, and Fencer really isn't worth it giving up as much as we are for the pet. Even if we couldn't swap axes because we want to keep TP, I'd rather keep my Kerehcatl for the Pet: Attack/Acc or a Pet: Acc/DT/TP Bonus axe offhand.

Ideally, there are a few things that could make this work out a little better. As you noted with your shield, shared pet/master hybrid gear is a must. I'd like to see BST gear (and possibly PUP or DRG too, as sharing stats with their pets could be helpful) turn into more hybrid sets such as Acc+18, Attack+18 / Pet: Acc+15, Attack+15 on a slot along with the usual stat vomit. (just throwing out numbers) Or things like PDT-5% / Pet: PDT-5% on the same gear, etc. If we can hybridize our sets so that instead of gearing for two separately we can gear for both equally, it would make this change very passable.

There's like 1-2 more updates. It's probably not gonna happen. Our best hope was to stop the nerf before it happened. The cry babies won. I just tested and I can't get more than 10 yalms from the target (not the pet, the target). You are now officially a liability on anything with AOE magic or TP moves. Unless they nerf magic bursts severely, anything that can't be beaten with trusts, will probably be mana burned from here on out. So much for running in and out. That's not gonna happen at that range.

[Ataraxia]

I am very very disappoint. This is the biggest fail Nerf in the history of FFXI and it was towards BST when they let this job run normal for 8 long years and people have no problem with it. I went and test out Bst today and I am not happy with the range and i think it has been reduce by maybe -10 as I fear. :(

For new generation of bst they can't solo some of high tier mission battle on normal and once your trust die you can't re-summon it again. If you solo high tier mission battle avatar on normal than you are gonna die if your not well equip to handle the astral flow. A Bst job is done once a trust dies because getting close to the enemy is a huge risk for the master. This update have fail us all and they should of kept it like the distance of a ranger but now ranger is a safe job and bst is a job where you need to keep yourself alive and your pet. If anyone play bst at all this doesn't make sense to keep bst master alive and the pet.

Might as well play THF solo when doing normal on some high tier mission battle. I done it many times already when they have double trust up campaign and it is much more rewarding with TH. The kill speed that the THF offer is much faster than a BST when a BST is not using Unleash 1 hour. Sometimes you win more than you lose but with TH it is worth it for solo.


Akihiro Matsui Mr. new director I hope your happy because you just ruin of the lives of many BST whom struggle solo for many years and being alone not wanted by many people. I for once like to see you play BST and see how it feel.

[Jordanrh]

They are reducing it as beastmasters are playing their jobs as they were summoners but with more attack and defense on their pets. Not to mention you wear heavy armor which gives you more defense yourself makes almost 0 risk for you to do almost anything in the game.

to funny...has to be coming from a bst hater...bst has had range since day 1 of the game and it was there for a purpose....they most likely took our range cause to many haters or non bst players complained like lil girls like usual.

[Jordanrh]

Not sure how you use to play bst back in the day but i and everyone else i knew who played it always fought with the pets they charmed. They gave bst heavy armor for a reason. The new content has more danger due to constant aoe attacks but you can't expect to have i think it was put "A pet with the HP of a mantra monk galka, the weaponskill damage of a samurai, the damage taken of a paladin and the attack power of a warrior" all from a safe distance with no draw back.

this would be 1 of the crybabies that's happy w/ bst being nerfed...u have no idea on bst...some bbst fight w/ pets some charm let pet fight and wait to recharm...some used /nin some /whm...charmed pet goes down and ur fighting...ur next if still fighting...

[Shirai]

I think anyone that really cares about the job will find a way.
I don't see this as a problem for the beastmaster, but more a problem for the lazy healers out there. I mean, your damage output didn't really get nerfed right? You just have to put yourself in a bit more risky position to be able to dish it out. And even that can be solved with proper planning and timing.
Let the healers worry about the rest, the good beastmasters will find a way as they, like other good players, have improvised their way in groups for years. Others will simply jump on the next bandwagon.

[Clou777]

LOL @ the people who are saying this has made BST "unplayable", me personally am not too fussed about the nerf, they have a fair point to do so as things become TOO easy when you sic a bunch of ranged BSTs on NMs spamming abilities which do 3x+ dmg more than most other jobs, all theyve done is increase the risk factor.

[Arthos]

LOL @ the people who are saying this has made BST "unplayable", me personally am not too fussed about the nerf, they have a fair point to do so as things become TOO easy when you sic a bunch of ranged BSTs on NMs spamming abilities which do 3x+ dmg more than most other jobs, all theyve done is increase the risk factor.

You have some valid points: Range setup are easier and you are right, something has to be done, when so many people play one job and other jobs are left out.

But bst does surely not 3x+ the damage of other jobs. You may have seen a strong bst with capped jp and top gear and compared it to a mediocre SMN, then yes. But not compared to an equal DD.
However, it became "unplayable" because it got totally messed up. Right now it cant engage, due to available gear, without giving up alot of dmg. Why anyone with a brain should do it then? So it's just standing there, eating the AoE's, which seems senseless, job design wise.
When Bst group is no longer safe, player will look for other setups. Either another ranged or melee. That's good. What's not so good is, that bst will find no place in them, mainly due to design of Brd and Cor.
So no party play besides the occassionally Bst pt, when it's possible.
And solo? Sure, with trusts, like any other job. What i will miss is the real solo challenge, which always was fun to do, and is very limited now.

Yes, something had to be done. Pet's base stats were too high compared to other jobs, which made bst the superior choice for beginners or lazy people.
And some support jobs need adjustments, so that mixed parties are possible. Pretty sure, if we would have seen more Bluemages in our Bst parties, the wish for nerfing bst would be nonexistent.
Problem is, looking into this needs lots of time, lots of balancing needs to be done. And how easy it is to change a single digit instead. I'm not happy with your work here, SE.

[machini]

They're saying that people are just picking X job over all others just because they saw / heard someone else win with it and they never try anything else. They just go with what everyone else does. Not because it's actually the most efficient, but because they saw / heard it worked and decided it must be the best if other people did it. The point of the story about making the party more efficient was to point out that people were trying to do everything with RNG because they don't think for themselves and just did what someone before them did, when they could have done it better using other jobs.

That's exactly what I was trying to say.

Also, I find it hilarious that no one seems to be talking about the item level Soboro that got added, which will probably be second to only the SAM mythic.

[Olor]

I think anyone that really cares about the job will find a way.
I don't see this as a problem for the beastmaster, but more a problem for the lazy healers out there. I mean, your damage output didn't really get nerfed right? You just have to put yourself in a bit more risky position to be able to dish it out. And even that can be solved with proper planning and timing.
Let the healers worry about the rest, the good beastmasters will find a way as they, like other good players, have improvised their way in groups for years. Others will simply jump on the next bandwagon.

Yes it did. Cause when you're dead your damage is 0. And the only way BST was getting that damage output was by building to focus on the pet. But now, the only way to live is to do waaaaaaay less damage. Besides which, we were never invited because we had high damage (we don't) but because we had range (which we no longer do).



I'm not against having to be in range to fight. I like the "easy mode" as it were, but I don't have a problem moving into range. I have sets for when I need to engage too. But then if I'm gearing for myself, my pet suffers. If I don't swap my offhand axe for Charmer's Merlin, my Ready timer increases by 50% (from 10->15), and that lowers my overall DPS significantly. If I do swap my offhand axe, then I lose TP every time I use a Ready move, meaning that I can't weaponskill and that I'm basically there to do minimal white damage. If I gear for my own accuracy, my pet loses accuracy. If I gear for my pet's accuracy, I can't hit anything. The problem, again is "gearing for two." If they can address this issue, then I think the problem with having to be in range is severely mitigated.

This all of this. I could deal with the range change if they did ANYTHING to make BST a viable job with the range. Now it's even less useful than it was before they buffed pet weaponskills. We weaponskill less, slower, for less damage and have very low survivability and constant JA lock. No one is going to invite us for anything.

[machini]

I was under the impression the entire reason for BST spam was not so much the damage as the fact that the pets didn't instantly die to all the massive AoE damage that kills your average DD who is a glass cannon and refuses to put on -DT.

[detlef]

Boo, c'mon guys didn't you like being able to clear all the content with no effort or risk? I know I did. Will miss it!

I also miss Embrava and Ukko/Smite.

[dasva]

I was under the impression the entire reason for BST spam was not so much the damage as the fact that the pets didn't instantly die to all the massive AoE damage that kills your average DD who is a glass cannon and refuses to put on -DT.

Well that's more of the reason for any job out of range vs melee. whether it be any of the pet jobs or mage jobs or even rng though the enmity update really killed rng popularity. Part of the reason of love for pet specifically is while generally not ideal (largely due to keeping hate off the geo you'd want debuffing) you could get away without the whole pld+healer in the pt. Though you generally should still have had some sort of tank tp at divert some of the dmg from the squishier pets you could set up a bst to be one or even better auto to be one. You can still basically do the same thing except smn for the DD.

[Alhanelem]

Ready move's require the use of gear that has no DT- for the master. Some of them aren't even iLVL. Same goes for idle sets. Nothing you can do about that with currently available gear. Try again.
One of the problems with horizontal progression is having otherwise weak items that you still need even in lategame for a particular effect or ability.

[Elexia]

One of the problems with horizontal progression is having otherwise weak items that you still need even in lategame for a particular effect or ability.

Indeed. I'd take this over throwing away everything I worked for within a month or two for yet another similar item with the same set of stats+7 on it though.

[Alhanelem]

Indeed. I'd take this over throwing away everything I worked for within a month or two for yet another similar item with the same set of stats+7 on it though.
There's pros and cons. It also means I don't see a new event or new fight come out that has no items I want from it, as has happened frequently over the years. As long as there's a way to get the look though, I'm good (Something FFXI has only had for a relatively short time).

The best part about the horizontal style is, as you alluded, variety. Loot is more fun when you have to look at different pieces and compare them to see what works best for you (vs knowing the next thing is always going to be better and by the same amount). In this regard FFXI is pretty much without equal.

The best part about a more vertical system (for me, anyway), is less inventory frustration from not needing 132 sidegrade items to be swapped a dozen of them in and out at a time for each ability I have. Balance is simpler as well.

The best thing ever would be something in between, with a lot of statistical variety but also a more straightforward sense of progression. I don't think these things are mutually exlcusive- Post audolin XI has somewhat tread into this territory by use of item level, but only on certain gear slots. While some people don't seem to like this, it clicks pretty well with me.

[bazookatooth]

There's pros and cons. It also means I don't see a new event or new fight come out that has no items I want from it, as has happened frequently over the years. As long as there's a way to get the look though, I'm good (Something FFXI has only had for a relatively short time).

The best part about the horizontal style is, as you alluded, variety. Loot is more fun when you have to look at different pieces and compare them to see what works best for you (vs knowing the next thing is always going to be better and by the same amount). In this regard FFXI is pretty much without equal.

The best part about a more vertical system (for me, anyway), is less inventory frustration from not needing 132 sidegrade items to be swapped a dozen of them in and out at a time for each ability I have. Balance is simpler as well.

The best thing ever would be something in between, with a lot of statistical variety but also a more straightforward sense of progression. I don't think these things are mutually exlcusive- Post audolin XI has somewhat tread into this territory by use of item level, but only on certain gear slots. While some people don't seem to like this, it clicks pretty well with me.

True. Something as crucial as an axe or legs that increase your pet's damage output by 50-100% shouldn't have been overlooked when it came time to make iLvl gear. It's really telling when items that are that important to a job's functionality are completely overlooked. I'm not sure if SE ignored those pieces because they wanted BST to suck or if they just don't plan / test things well. Both prospects are pretty disheartening.

[machini]

Honestly, neither one would surprise me. A not-insignificant part of the motivation for me making Terpsichore was that there were really no other weapon choices at the time. It was Izhiikoh, Sabebus, Vanir Knife, and Ipetam. And Vanir Knife isn't really that great for DNC, I already had Izhiikoh and Sabebus, and Ipetam, at the time, would have cost about half as much to augment as a Terpsichore cost in Alex.

[Shirai]

Yes it did. Cause when you're dead your damage is 0.

Well, I still stand by this being a healer problem.
Apart from that, what's wrong with moving out of range when stuff really gets hairy? Melee have been doing that for years.
At least the more competent ones...

[Arthos]

Well, I still stand by this being a healer problem.


Of course it's a healer problem. But knowing this doesn't change anything. The whole range only hype is caused by healer problems, good Whm's are rare. But how to change that? -> Not possible -> Building safe ranged PT's.
Atleast for shout groups.

[bazookatooth]

Front line DDs and Pets need different Buffs and gear to put out damage and survive TP moves / AOE magic attacks and BST requires both now. Which, it can't have.

[Shirai]

Of course it's a healer problem. But knowing this doesn't change anything. The whole range only hype is caused by healer problems, good Whm's are rare. But how to change that? -> Not possible -> Building safe ranged PT's.
Atleast for shout groups.

And this mentality only adds to the problem.
But I guess it's easier to point fingers at others instead of trying to contribute to the sollution yourself by either educating healers, or becoming one yourself if you think they're all so bad.


Front line DDs and Pets need different Buffs and gear to put out damage and survive TP moves / AOE magic attacks and BST requires both now. Which, it can't have.

Nah, not really.
If my paperskin summoner and white mage with hardly any -DT gear in its idle sets can take one or two AoE's, so can a Beastmaster.
If you can't, you really need to look at your gearsets because if your idle and melee sets are not at least at iLevel stage you have other problems.

Now I do understand that some situational sets dependent on non-iLevel armor, I really do, but for that there's things like timing your moves.
It might prove a bit dificult in the begining, but practice makes perfect.

I'm sorry but Beastmaster hasn't become unplayable, it just takes a different approach now which most skilled players will eventually figure out if they haven't already.
You've just been put back in the same place as all the other melee jobs you've been leaving behind, you've had your fun and you knew this was coming eventually.
If you want "easy" ways to beat high level content, try thinking and figuring out about their mechanics because the content is not hard.

[Jile]

It's obvious there is a disconnect between the people who presume BST is like any other DD and those who play BST.

Bottom line, presently there isn't a gear set where BST can have their pet doing proper damage and the same for themselves.

Regardless of this update, BST is not a frontline job.

Either our pet wiffs or we do.

BST do not belong anywhere near the frontline. If their pets are expected to be effective the master will be ineffective.

Pick one.

[Shirai]

Neither is a Geomancer, but where are they standing 9 out of 10 times?

[Jile]

SMN was one of my first 75s back in the olden days but I won't presume to tell a SMN main how to play their job as it would be presumptuous on my part.

BST on the other hand is my main and this Nerf was ill planned.

I won't presume to understand GEO but their job is not comparable with BST nor does it bear relevance to how we must choose to be effective ourselves or for our pets to be effective.

[bazookatooth]

Neither is a Geomancer, but where are they standing 9 out of 10 times?

Geos don't front line everything. Only things with no nasty AOE moves. For everything else, they use entrust and stay away. They also have the ability to use stone skin, blink and heal themselves and native magic defense bonus from subjob. Not only that, but when they idle in DT- gear, it doesn't gimp their spells.

Not even a close comparison. And it ignores the fact that if a BST can survive it, then a melee can survive it too, while putting out better damage.

[Arthos]

And this mentality only adds to the problem.
But I guess it's easier to point fingers at others instead of trying to contribute to the sollution yourself by either educating healers, or becoming one yourself if you think they're all so bad.

No one points fingers at others, I'm talking about what i see. I have Whm and I know how hard it can be, sometimes I was good at it and sometimes not. And i dont blame them, they have the hardest job in game. But doesnt change the facts, good and fast Whm's are rare.



Nah, not really.
If my paperskin summoner and white mage with hardly any -DT gear in its idle sets can take one or two AoE's, so can a Beastmaster.
If you can't, you really need to look at your gearsets because if your idle and melee sets are not at least at iLevel stage you have other problems.
I suggest you to have a look at your gearsets, and maybe u find the difference between heavy and light armor. Compare magic defense bonus and magic evasion of both types. You may be surprised.
Also have a look at job traits of your white mage. And now take into count that most AoE's are magic and u know why u dont need DT gear to survive that. And why Bst may need it.

[Shirai]

And the roughly 1k+ HP you have more than mages means nothing? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not sure what the problem is here exactly, because unlike what Olor wants to try to make me believe Beastmaster did not get a damage cut.
They're still able to do the same, but at the same time they have to take the same risk as any other melee DD out there.
In the end, Beastmaster needs to learn to rely on other jobs to help them. Which is, I do admit, quite revolutionary.

[bazookatooth]

And the roughly 1k+ HP you have more than mages means nothing? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not sure what the problem is here exactly, because unlike what Olor wants to try to make me believe Beastmaster did not get a damage cut.
They're still able to do the same, but at the same time they have to take the same risk as any other melee DD out there.
In the end, Beastmaster needs to learn to rely on other jobs to help them. Which is, I do admit, quite revolutionary.

My GEO has about 125 less HP in idle gear than my BST. Where are you getting the other 850 from? Some game shark hack? And you are correct. As was previously stated numerous times, Beast pets still put out less damage than traditional Melee jobs, just like they always have.

EDIT: ACtually, I was missing my idle head piece when I did that comparison. My GEO has 49 less HP than my BST in idle set so...

[Jile]

BST have to choose. Def or atk or acc on either pet or themselves, and only one really of those six variables up at a time. This update proves only that whomever is doing this update does not play BST. Neither BST nor SMN belong on the frontline for relevant content, period.

For relevant content either the pet or the master will be hitting and doing decent damage. Both will not occur at the same time.

SE designed our gear to intentionally force us to choose, to limit our dmg output.

This Nerf changes everything. SE needs to completely revisit BST gear to redesign it around these changes.

[dasva]

Geos don't front line everything. Only things with no nasty AOE moves. For everything else, they use entrust and stay away. They also have the ability to use stone skin, blink and heal themselves and native magic defense bonus from subjob. Not only that, but when they idle in DT- gear, it doesn't gimp their spells.

Not even a close comparison. And it ignores the fact that if a BST can survive it, then a melee can survive it too, while putting out better damage.

Also ignores the fact that loupons have built in innate dt... and recasting them isn't based on a ja timer. And only need potency on cast instead of several seconds every 10 so can stay in full defense the vast majority of the time while stilling keeping even higher DTs on their sort of pet than bst can even achieve.

[Skyrant_Kangaroomouse]

Please adjust BST ability ranges.

I have no problem being close to the mob or engaging although it is pointless since my gear is not helping me at all in doing damage. Most BST gear is for pet stats not BST stats and does little for me. But the really big problem is the range limitation.

Has any of you at SE tried to hit any end game mob as BST engaged in melee with the available BST gear? If you can hit ANY of these evasive mobs in BST gear i will personally pay for pizza for all developers.

The biggest problem is that I can't even stand behind the mob any more. I just did Salvage II and Einherjar and it was a nightmare because even when engaged i have to be right next to my pet. I can't stand to the side or behind the boss mobs at all. I have to be right in the face of the mob. What are we now? TANKS?

Any bigger mob you will not be able to issue commands at all even when ENGAGED. On big Boss mobs, forget it completely. You can melee but you wont be able to issue commands unless you stand right next to your pet. Get knocked back or pet/boss adjusts which they do a lot then you need to keep adjusting too, finding the "Sweet spot". It has become a game of trial and error.

This is annoying and needs to be changed.

___

While we are on the subject. You not only increase SMN range to an absurd number, you also give SMN it's OWN abjuration set, just for them. How about you now introduce a BST set that will actually work with these changes so we can do melee instead of giving us half arsed WAR pieces that do #$@ all.

[Olor]

Come on, can the bst haters even just admit the current ranges are ridiculous? Please?

[machini]

Come on, can the bst haters even just admit the current ranges are ridiculous? Please?

No, they're too busy trying to sweep the stupidly OP job that is BLU under the rug.

[Keido]

No, they're too busy trying to sweep the stupidly OP job that is BLU under the rug.

Difference is you cant play BLU and be terrible at it in any real content other than silt farming. You can be a mid level BST and affect hard content with 0 risk. Or you used to be :p Those that dont know how to play it very well die all the time. They can still cleave silt just as fast as Scissorleg Xerin spam can or SMN ramuh or BLMs or SCH.. Honestly adapt. Think of new strategies.

[Olor]

No one was doing hard content on BST without at minimum tens of millions in augmented gear. Please stop lying about BST. No one was beating hard content with poorly geared BST.

[bazookatooth]

You can be a mid level BST and affect hard content with 0 risk.

Cool story. Too bad it's not true.

[Olor]

Seriously. Been playing BST for years and I didn't even get to go out on harder content because I am a casual player and I didn't feel geared enough. I was super excited that I might have a chance to play endgame on my favourite job before the end of the game. That hope was shattered by this update.

And yeah, before people come along to slag me, sure I am not the greatest player out there, maybe some superhero with perfect augments and every bit of BST gear out there can still do some endgame now, but for regular BST there will be no slots once again.

[Jile]

Think of new strategies.

Honestly, this Nerf is so powerful and so very broken right now, BST isn't playable. No strategies work when your core functions are broken beyond usability.

The Nerf will be removed or BST will no longer be played by anyone for any serious purpose.

SE messed up bad.

[Zuidar]

Seriously. Been playing BST for years and I didn't even get to go out on harder content because I am a casual player and I didn't feel geared enough. I was super excited that I might have a chance to play endgame on my favourite job before the end of the game. That hope was shattered by this update.

And yeah, before people come along to slag me, sure I am not the greatest player out there, maybe some superhero with perfect augments and every bit of BST gear out there can still do some endgame now, but for regular BST there will be no slots once again.

I agree to this. I'm no BST myself but I hate to see BSTs trying to get their pet moves in real close and then die from dangerous mob moves because of the nerfs then waiting for Recast to call another pet.

[Alhanelem]

I'm no BST but all the feedback I see makes this seem like a terrible solution to a niche-y problem....

[Singforu]

Honestly, this Nerf is so powerful and so very broken right now, BST isn't playable. No strategies work when your core functions are broken beyond usability.

The Nerf will be removed or BST will no longer be played by anyone for any serious purpose.

SE messed up bad.

No, it is playable. Just not in the way YOU want it to be.

[bazookatooth]

No, it is playable. Just not in the way YOU want it to be.

It's playable, but it's BAD and It's not the way ANYONE wants to play it.

[Alhanelem]

No, it is playable. Just not in the way YOU want it to be.
It doesn't really sound like the way anyone wants it to be, not just him.

[Jile]

No, it is playable. Just not in the way YOU want it to be.

Can I draw out a weapon, yes.

Can I send a pet to attack, yes.

Can I use pet ready moves, occasionally when the positioning is right, yep.

If that is the extent of your definition then yes BST can 'play'.

Now, if you mean does the job work effectively - For the love of all things, no, not even remotely.

If BRD had a 2 yalm radius for songs, they could still play. Would they be effective, heck no.

Lets stop cutting hairs here. BST is severely, critically, undeniably broken with this nerf. It needs undone.

[Singforu]

No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it. You only consider it broken because you don't want to play it the way SE intends for you to play it. Get over it.

A BLM could not play the job the way SE intends for it to be played and melee without casting a single nuke. Is his DPS going to take a hit... you betcha. Play BST the way SE intends for you to play it and stop whining.

[Arthos]

Bst simply got eliminated of high lv content. There's no new playstyle. When you want to go with a melee pt, there are better options, faster and safer then bst. It still can be good on low level content, but it's more a hobby now than an endgame job.
For now it has the advantage that many players have good equip and jp on bst, so that it still may be an option to go with a bst group. But this will fade out with the time and you will see pure melee pt, but more often other ranged setups. Bst cannot join any of them, because even if they add gear for bst melee, you would still need different buffs for master and pet.

[Fynlar]

No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it.

And even when they do that, sometimes their commands still don't go through because the range is STILL too short.

However SE "wants" us to be playing it doesn't really matter, because right now it's just plain broken.

[Zeargi]

No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it. You only consider it broken because you don't want to play it the way SE intends for you to play it. Get over it.

A BLM could not play the job the way SE intends for it to be played and melee without casting a single nuke. Is his DPS going to take a hit... you betcha. Play BST the way SE intends for you to play it and stop whining.


While I do tend to fight next to my pet, I recently went into Dynamis and almost died, because my pet went wondering off to hit some Range fighter and moved way outside of 'Ready's range. Mind you my internet connection right now isn't all that great, but there is most definitely a problem.

As many have said, they need to adjust the gear for BST to help both player and pet, and the range for the abilities needs to be adjusted. It's really bad when I'm in close proximity and I still can't issue a command.

[bazookatooth]

No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it. You only consider it broken because you don't want to play it the way SE intends for you to play it. Get over it.

A BLM could not play the job the way SE intends for it to be played and melee without casting a single nuke. Is his DPS going to take a hit... you betcha. Play BST the way SE intends for you to play it and stop whining.

Imagine how blms would feel if that were to suddenly happen. I think BLMs would be rather pissed if SE suddenly decided that magic bursts have gotten too powerful, so they are now required to stand up on the frontline and fight in order to cast spells. And rightfully so. Just because SE says it is their new intention, doesn't mean it isn't dumb and it doesn't mean we shouldn't tell them. We've never had to play bst that way before and we don't like it. Luckily there's a forum where we can express this discontent to the developer so that they can take a more appropriate course of action. If you don't like it, you are free to go read something else. This obviously doesn't pertain to you. But I for one will not "Stop Whining". I don't bow down to trolls.

[Jopa-Sopa]

It's ridiculous for them to force their "original vision" for a job that's been around since launch, right in the penultimate content update.

On the other hand, these "how would you like it if WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN/SCH/GEO was forced to melee" arguments are pretty flawed. None of those jobs have a combat skill higher than B+ (if that), and with the exception of RDM/BRD, their melee gear is pretty much limited to All Jobs accessories.

The only job it should be compared to is PUP, since that's basically the reverse situation: job that was intended to be played like SMN, yet was interpreted by the players to be more like DRG. Now it has the option to do both, and I think BST should, too. Just add some sort of penalty to back line BST (nothing too severe) and incentive to play melee BST.

[Arthos]

On the other hand, these "how would you like it if WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN/SCH/GEO was forced to melee" arguments are pretty flawed. None of those jobs have a combat skill higher than B+ (if that), and with the exception of RDM/BRD, their melee gear is pretty much limited to All Jobs accessories.



This argument comes up so much, because it's true. No melee abilities, job traits and gearing is more complex than a standard melee, because you need stats for master and for pet, which is limited.
Bst is not a melee and to be honest, i dont think this game needs another melee. There are excellent frontline jobs already who hardly ever see the sun of Vana'diel.

[bazookatooth]

It's ridiculous for them to force their "original vision" for a job that's been around since launch, right in the penultimate content update.

On the other hand, these "how would you like it if WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN/SCH/GEO was forced to melee" arguments are pretty flawed. None of those jobs have a combat skill higher than B+ (if that), and with the exception of RDM/BRD, their melee gear is pretty much limited to All Jobs accessories.

The only job it should be compared to is PUP, since that's basically the reverse situation: job that was intended to be played like SMN, yet was interpreted by the players to be more like DRG. Now it has the option to do both, and I think BST should, too. Just add some sort of penalty to back line BST (nothing too severe) and incentive to play melee BST.

That's missing the point. Even if they all had A+ skill, It doesn't change the fact that that's not how the jobs were played throughout the history of the game and there's no good reason to change them now.

[Elexia]

Imagine how blms would feel if that were to suddenly happen..

That would be quite silly for it to happen to a job that is 99.9% of the time as far away from the monster as possible.

Imagine if it were to happen to WHM! May as well throw another unrealistic situation.

[bazookatooth]

That would be quite silly for it to happen to a job that is 99.9% of the time as far away from the monster as possible.

Imagine if it were to happen to WHM! May as well throw another unrealistic situation.

Ermm... now you're getting it. They took a job that always played from a distance and made it fight on the front line. I'm glad that you can see how ridiculous it is.

[Gwydion]

My biggest problem with using the terminology "front-line job" and calling BST a "front-line job" is that ....other "front-line jobs" won't be happy to receive the same buffs as Beastmasters.

We need Beastmaster Roll / Drachen Roll / Pup Roll ...I don't think other front-line DD like WAR/SAM/DRK/etc. would be comfortable giving their buffs up so that my pet can be buffed. Let's also not forget that the WHM we're expected to bring can't heal our pets.

The whole thing just doesn't make any sense and it's very clear that the folks who opted for this fix haven't played Beastmaster from 1-75, solo or in high-level content.

Beastmaster should either be given the full benefits of a front-line job (and then some, like an Ochain-like shield with sic/ready-10) ...or reverted to what it was a month ago.

The situation is just so incredibly disappointing and it is making it very hard for me to login. :(

[Fynlar]

That would be quite silly for it to happen to a job that is 99.9% of the time as far away from the monster as possible.

I see you're not very good at catching on to what's been happening already right in front of us

[Jile]

No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it. You only consider it broken because you don't want to play it the way SE intends for you to play it. Get over it.

A BLM could not play the job the way SE intends for it to be played and melee without casting a single nuke. Is his DPS going to take a hit... you betcha. Play BST the way SE intends for you to play it and stop whining.

Do me a favor, please - stop posting a while and have the respect to try and see why we're having issues and go play BST now. Do something simple like Demolition Squad BCNM and try to use spur and ready moves from behind the BST nm so you don't get charmed.

Spur needed the BST to stand IN FRONT of the BST-NM we were using BST to avoid being charmed by.... That is idiotic, you cant even stand in BACK of the mob your fighting to use SPUR and READY moves?

Please, respectfully, stop posting when you have no idea why the job is broken now. We can adapt to a lot, when things are not broken like they are presently. If this were just an issue if needing to be engaged, it would at least leave BST usable for a limited range of things. Right now its just idiotic and useless. SE needs to repair the damage and offer an apology after they restore us to being a playable job.

[bazookatooth]

Do me a favor, please - stop posting a while and have the respect to try and see why we're having issues and go play BST now. Do something simple like Demolition Squad BCNM and try to use spur and ready moves from behind the BST nm so you don't get charmed.

Spur needed the BST to stand IN FRONT of the BST-NM we were using BST to avoid being charmed by.... That is idiotic, you cant even stand in BACK of the mob your fighting to use SPUR and READY moves?

Please, respectfully, stop posting when you have no idea why the job is broken now. We can adapt to a lot, when things are not broken like they are presently. If this were just an issue if needing to be engaged, it would at least leave BST usable for a limited range of things. Right now its just idiotic and useless. SE needs to repair the damage and offer an apology after they restore us to being a playable job.

You think that's bad, try BST in domain invasion. One of the dragons or Lamia does an AOE attack/spell and your pet runs off after it. So you have to spam "fight" every 10 seconds (animation delay yay!) and hope it doesn't die before it comes back to you, or get hit with another AOE and run away again because you can't cure it or tell it to kill whatever it's after unless you're sitting on it's back. It's completely broken.

[Gwydion]

You think that's bad, try BST in domain invasion. One of the dragons or Lamia does an AOE attack/spell and your pet runs off after it. So you have to spam "fight" every 10 seconds (animation delay yay!) and hope it doesn't die before it comes back to you, or get hit with another AOE and run away again because you can't cure it or tell it to kill whatever it's after unless you're sitting on it's back. It's completely broken.

This...so much this.

[Zuidar]

With what they did on BST, I don't want to imagine what will happen if they did that to other jobs. Oh!


wait for it....

"We want mages to take risk of being there with their melees, so we're reducing the range of Cures, Enhancing Magic, and Elemental Magic. Rangers attack from a distance with bows/guns/crossbows, but we feel they are classified as Front Line Jobs, so we're lowering the range of Ranged attacks and Ranged Weapon Skills so Rangers can take a risk (Oh that also affects corsair too, because Quick draw range will be reduced!). We want PUP to choose a role while fighting so we're reducing the range of their pet abilities. We feel that DRGs should learn to protect their wyverns more, so we're increasing the recast of Call Wyvern to 30 minutes"

[Elexia]

If that was true they would have done more, by now, to make BLMs more adapt in meleeing with Scythes. They wouldn't make changes to mages like that because out of any job classes, that would make absolutely no sense. So much saltiness. It would be funny if they reduced the range of cures, because that would be a change that makes no sense. Not sure when many people actually joined XI but most of the jobs/job types had plenty of changes over the years, especially from the early days. Your "Rangers" example the big change was when they introduced the "sweet spot", which some times put you in danger based on the content at the time.

Don't worry, I'm sure when they reset it people will be back to wanting BST only burns. (Kind of the reason they maimed it in a sweeping matter to begin with.)

[Arthos]

Don't worry, I'm sure when they reset it people will be back to wanting BST only burns. (Kind of the reason they maimed it in a sweeping matter to begin with.)

BST only burns exist since long time, because they got excluded of parties, and only could team up with each other. Now they became popular and we got the opposite, most other jobs got excluded. It's not too hard to solve, some rolls and songs need to be adjusted, simplified, so that they give buffs to player's and pets.
On higher content BST parties have tank and healer, Sinister Reign e.g., it would be no problem to invite a melee. And most people would do it, i think.
So the key to an intelligent adjustment are the support jobs and not taking away essential parts of jobs.

[Malthar]

I think SE made a translation error. When people asked for bst to be fixed they didn't mean for you to cut off our mog bonanza balls. Who else hated getting those balls instead of an actual prize?

[Fynlar]

It would be funny if they reduced the range of cures, because that would be a change that makes no sense.

That logic didn't stop them from doing what they did to BST.

As far as I'm concerned, anything can happen now, for better or for worse.

[Leonardus]

BST should be using their axes in my opinion, but there's plenty of situations where that's not feasible, and this adjustment really hurts. I can only hope our JP brethren are just as upset about this. They're probably our only hope for getting SE to re-evaluate the range.

Increase the charge timers. Tone down the Ready damage. I'll take either, or both. I'd rather use "Chocoburger" and eat my pet to recover HP as a 1 hour than play tag like this.

I don't even do endgame activities, but right now, anything beyond Job Points is just aggravation. What am I supposed to do now when I'm in trouble and I use Unleash? Go stand in front of the NM for a minute? I can't even stand behind them. Good grief.

[Gwydion]

BST only burns exist since long time, because they got excluded of parties, and only could team up with each other. Now they became popular and we got the opposite, most other jobs got excluded. It's not too hard to solve, some rolls and songs need to be adjusted, simplified, so that they give buffs to player's and pets.
On higher content BST parties have tank and healer, Sinister Reign e.g., it would be no problem to invite a melee. And most people would do it, i think.
So the key to an intelligent adjustment are the support jobs and not taking away essential parts of jobs.


I'm sorry, but I really have to address this comment. The Beastmaster strategy that people are complaining about HAS EXISTED SINCE BC40 (mandragoras) was won by 6-BSTs in 2003. It is unfair and unacceptable that SE has nerfed the job because this strategy has works in the most recent content.

[Arthos]

I'm sorry, but I really have to address this comment. The Beastmaster strategy that people are complaining about HAS EXISTED SINCE BC40 (mandragoras) was won by 6-BSTs in 2003. It is unfair and unacceptable that SE has nerfed the job because this strategy has works in the most recent content.

Think it's more the mass of BST setups, with or without support, which makes them complaining. And their high rate of success. To be honest, i don't like it too. I enjoyed BST much more when it wasn't a bandwagon job.

[Spectreman]

The game is already with 1 foot in its grave and SE still listen to the minority that only feels joy on others misery, asking for nerfs. /Slowclap to SE. This is the last game i play from you.

And to all of you that spent 13 years crying NERF, all i have to say is enjoy the last bit of blood of FFXI till the official ones are shutdown. You got what you wanted. You won. Congratulations.

[Olor]

The game is already with 1 foot in its grave and SE still listen to the minority that only feels joy on others misery, asking for nerfs. /Slowclap to SE. This is the last game i play from you.

And to all of you that spent 13 years crying NERF, all i have to say is enjoy the last bit of blood of FFXI till the official ones are shutdown. You got what you wanted. You won. Congratulations.

This is just it. With content updates ending we should be maintaining jobs that can clear lower-difficulty content solo, not nerfing them to the ground. Let alone leaving people miserable because their favourite job is broken.

What really guts me is this did this to BST then gave BLU a once every five minute embrava in mighty guard. I play BLU too and I love it but it just seems cruel to completely ruin one job while superbuffing others.

[machini]

This is just it. With content updates ending we should be maintaining jobs that can clear lower-difficulty content solo, not nerfing them to the ground. Let alone leaving people miserable because their favourite job is broken.

What really guts me is this did this to BST then gave BLU a once every five minute embrava in mighty guard. I play BLU too and I love it but it just seems cruel to completely ruin one job while superbuffing others.

Why do you think some of the most vocal people who wanted BST nerfs are BLU lovers? And who, despite their job being OP as all hell, would cry and wail and gnash their teeth if it was brought down to where it 'should' be?

It's like with Rudra's Storm all over again.

[Jile]

It's worse than the rudras Nerf. At least the impacted jobs on that are still playable.

This Nerf is more along the lines of taking daggers and swords away from those jobs and then forcing them to use h2h without raising skill and also requiring them to be blinded and paralyzed first to be able to engage.

It's that crippling.

[machini]

It's worse than the rudras Nerf. At least the impacted jobs on that are still playable.

This Nerf is more along the lines of taking daggers and swords away from those jobs and then forcing them to use h2h without raising skill and also requiring them to be blinded and paralyzed first to be able to engage.

It's that crippling.

I meant that in terms of "we're taking something that isn't broke, has never been broke, and, if it really is broke, is broken because of design choices we have made recently, and nerfing it, because a few very vocal SAMs, er, I mean, BLUs, had a problem with it."

[machini]

The problem with Rudra's Storm was letting people unlock the Empyrean WSes for use on any weapon. Had that not happened, we would not have had enough people making big, but infrequent, numbers to piss off enough people who actually do more damage but get jealous of big numbers to be as vocal as they were to get it nerfed.

[Jile]

We're in agreement Machini, I'm just saying this Nerf is profoundly worse.

[machini]

Sorry for triple posting, but I have had people complain about me doing 99999 damage double darkness off of Rudra's Storm, post nerf, when all it took was 350k in food, a GEO giving me fury and frailty, a COR giving me Chaos Roll, me having a couple levels Box Step on the mob, having Climactic Flourish active, having capped skillechain bonus, being at attack speed cap, the mob having Dia II on it, and (I think) the mob being weak to at least one of the elements in the Darkness skillchain.

Oh, did I mention I have 1200 job points spent on DNC, too? Got that two days ago. Already up to nearly 140 points stored, 'cause I'm still doing cap parties to get LS mates job points.

So having more than five finishing moves stored, all those buffs on, doing an Evisceration, then a Pyrrhic Kleos, then getting off 2-3 attack rounds, doing a Reverse Flourish for 1350 TP, which generally brings me up to ~2200 TP, doing Climactic Flourish, and then doing a ~2200 TP Climactic Rudra's Storm to close a double darkness is 'unfair'.

I mean, sure I can kill one of the new Apex Efts that have like 140kHP in about 30 seconds. I can do that once every minute and a half. Just ignore that I have maybe 450 or 500 million gil worth of gear (counting the mythic), a lot of which is upgrades after a month long break when I broke down and finally decided to spend gil, that it took two separate jobs buffing me, two jobs debuffing the mob, that I have 1200 job points (for upgrades to Climactic Flourish, to deal more damage, and Reverse Flourish, to get more TP for that closing Rudra's Storm), or how much I've spent on food, or that I can't always consistently do that (the efts are fond of stunning me), or that it's often better damage for me to just spam single darknesses. Oh, or that this requires me to be the only person doing WSes, unless the people with me are willing to coordinate WSes and open for me, in which case it's not just me doing all that damage anymore, and that that's actually more damage (since it's faster for two people to gain TP than one).

None of that matters to 'these people'. All that matters is a super buffed, super geared mythic dancer can do more damage at capped hit rate with AM3 up and Atoyac offhand using multiple job abilities and requiring a decent number of buffs, than their Nene SAM can do just autoattacking and spamming Fudo.

[edit] Forgot the important part: Or that a super buffed, super geared PARTY of beasts can do high damage.

[Olor]

The biggest difference is the Rudra's nerf didn't take away a style of play that had existed since the job began. It took away part of a buff. And the second biggest difference is Rudra's is still very good. BST, not so much.

[kylani]

The problem with Rudra's Storm was letting people unlock the Empyrean WSes for use on any weapon. Had that not happened, we would not have had enough people making big, but infrequent, numbers to piss off enough people who actually do more damage but get jealous of big numbers to be as vocal as they were to get it nerfed.

The problem is people who care more about what other jobs can do than enjoying the game.

[Olor]

The problem is people who care more about what other jobs can do than enjoying the game.

This. Seriously.

[Ataraxia]

If people have a problem and they don't like the range for BST in this September 15, 2015 update. Than you be please to know that you must mention the name Akihiro Matsui in your post comment because he is the whole reason why this happen. Akihiro Matsui was the same person who nerf Rudra's storm and the skill chain properties. At least he let everyone know ahead of time on what he was doing. When he lower the BST range he said Nothing! nothing at all. He has never play BST because if he did than he knows it doesn't make sense for a BST to be close NM keeping pet alive as well as master alive and who in the fight mind would want to melee along with PET which means feeding NM more TP for dangerous situation "No thank you". Trust are unreliable at this point since they can only be summon once in some content.

Please everyone support BST they need everyone help right now even if you hate it. Try to understand that BST is a solo job and they exist for a very long long time in game. Please do not let the Legend of BST solo for 12 years die out now because FFXI will never make sense again. Akihiro Matsui doesn't know so if we all support we might get range back for bst. The core the problem in FFXI is always been the NM and many NM need adjustment so other job can have a chance.

If Akihiro Matsui decide to go forward with this melee range for BST than he should allow the pet augmented item to work for master as well. So I am praying and hoping he change his mind. :/

[Olor]

When he lower the BST range he said Nothing! nothing at all.

Actually they told Japanese players well in advance but never translated it until much later. JP players complaining about BST is why it was nerfed. Pretty much everything the devs tell us over here is translated from JP forums. They don't listen to us.

[Alhanelem]

Actually they told Japanese players well in advance but never translated it until much later. JP players complaining about BST is why it was nerfed. Pretty much everything the devs tell us over here is translated from JP forums. They don't listen to us.
Not entirely true, as there are some topics (Mostly the "We don't have any plans" ones) where we get a response that weren't brought up on the JP side.

[Skyrant_Kangaroomouse]

No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it. You only consider it broken because you don't want to play it the way SE intends for you to play it. Get over it.

A BLM could not play the job the way SE intends for it to be played and melee without casting a single nuke. Is his DPS going to take a hit... you betcha. Play BST the way SE intends for you to play it and stop whining.

I am not going to stand in front of the mob, BST is not a TANK. We also have no control over where our pet will engage. 5 yalms is too close. End of discussion.

http://i.imgur.com/jpS4sRJ.jpg

[Ataraxia]

Actually they told Japanese players well in advance but never translated it until much later. JP players complaining about BST is why it was nerfed. Pretty much everything the devs tell us over here is translated from JP forums. They don't listen to us.

That is not cool at all. In fact here in Odin i know a really good player who use a lot of BST battle strategy and they are JP. Lots of JP use BST battle strategy during JP hour and there is nothing wrong with it. For them to not translate for the NA player is so wrong in many ways. They also post it on update but they didn't say how much the range was reduce either. It was all blank until you log on and play BST than you be OMG!!!

So we all need to stick around this forum and support BST to the end. =)

[Ataraxia]

Not entirely true, as there are some topics (Mostly the "We don't have any plans" ones) where we get a response that weren't brought up on the JP side.

Yeah I heard that a lot from Grekumuh. :/

[Alhanelem]

What do we have here:

Kainstryder posted in regards to the new unity behemoth:


So despite that huge aoe damage from this level 135 NM, they still killed it while staying in range.

So it's not that BST is broken, you complainers are just bad players.Illogical assumption from a lack of information.

It could be a stretch to say it makes the job "unplayable" but it doesn't mean that players aren't experiencing major frustration and inconvenience for no good reason. The change was unnecessary and only serves to tick people off.

[Dale]

Illogical assumption from a lack of information.

It could be a stretch to say it makes the job "unplayable" but it doesn't mean that players aren't experiencing major frustration and inconvenience for no good reason. The change was unnecessary and only serves to tick people off.

Beast Master was insanely powerful with their super cricket out. I was watching them slaughter normal difficulty avatars faster than a full group and clearing an entire screen full of incredibly toughs in a matter of seconds. So unless they have decreased the power of your pets since I've been away: something did need to happen. They were over-powered. There is just no denying that. Having that kind of damage coupled with the survivability of your pet while being able to stand safely out of the range of area attacks was God-mode. That's why everyone and their mother started leveling a beast master.

Also: every other melee dps on this game faces the dilemma of being killed by area attacks. This is nothing new: so it seems to me from reading this that Beast Master is just having to deal with the same crap every other melee class on this game has to.

I don't play Beast Master. Maybe the range is too small. I'm not saying it isn't. But some changes were necessary.

[Stompa]

The biggest difference is the Rudra's nerf didn't take away a style of play that had existed since the job began. It took away part of a buff. And the second biggest difference is Rudra's is still very good. BST, not so much.


Pre-nerf BST was not actually "the style of play that had existed since the job began" at all. The original BST had jugpets that died in a couple of hits from any strong mob, and their pet healing was on reward timer without mulsum spam. The original job was all about charm-chaining, the only times you used jugpets were if all charm mobs were down, or if you were in an easy bcnm. My first Maat win was on BST in 2005 and I paid a fortune for a single Panzer jug, the pet still died in short time lol. Jugpets were super weak back then, before stout servant.

So the original BST "style of play" was never about calling these new Siege Engine pets and just spamming mulsums. Reward was long-range because the master rarely meleed any seriously powerful mobs, most BST stood far away from those mobs, with a light/earth staff equipped, and SS/blink up lol. So it made sense for BST to have long range remote-mode pet commands.

But the job mechanics changed in Aby, no charm pets available, and BST was encouraged to be more melee. We understand that SE have tried to find the right balance since then, because the original BST job was turned upside down in 2010, and since that time we got ilvl pets, which again affected the job balance.

I can see why SE needed to rebalance BST again, it was never designed to be played the way it has been recently. But I also agree with many posters here, that it is ridiculous to have such a tiny reward range, that if you are on other side of the mob you can't cure your pet. That range is too short, clearly.

[Alhanelem]

Beast Master was insanely powerful with their super cricket outWell, if they're insanely powerful with their super cricket whatever thingy, then why would they not adjust that instead of adjusting pet command range?

Your argument doesn't have anything to do with the change that was made, and the change that was made does nothing to address the problem you're alleging exists. Even if it is a problem (and I'm not conceding that it is), the change SE made does nothing to fix it.


This is nothing new: so it seems to me from reading this that Beast Master is just having to deal with the same crap every other melee class on this game has to. BST is barely more of a melee class than the other pet jobs. It gets some more heavy armor gear options (though most of those options don't help your pet), but it's still not super sturdy like a PLD or WAR. Still, from the screenshots ive seen people post, and from comments ive seen here and in game, the range was reduced to so short that you can easily be in melee range of the mob and not able to command your pet. If they want to make it so you can't be standing in absolute safety and play the job like SMN, well, I can sort of understand that (I don't agree but I understand), but the change was so drastic that you have to be litreally glued to your pet's behind in order to give it commands.

PUP generally melees with its pet and they weren't affected by this- another reason why the change makes no sense. This change might not be the end of the world, but it simply causes aggravation for no good reason. JP players have already testified they can still kick butt with BST, so obviously the change didn't achieve it's intended purpose.

[Stompa]

BST is barely more of a melee class than the other pet jobs. It gets some more heavy armor gear options (though most of those options don't help your pet), but it's still not super sturdy like a PLD or WAR.

I liked and agreed with your whole post, but I snipped this line because it is particularly salient. I think you convey the confusing messages on the job change well.

For six years, we played BST as a mage job. I was on a BST-only LS on Remora, and the LS chat was always talking about MP-gear, how to get star-necklace from quest, how great lamia-mantle+1 was for MP, etc.etc. When you started levelling BST, the first thing they told you was "level WHM sub." You had to actually level WHM37 before you even started levelling your BST. Nobody levelled WAR or other melee subs, and most people played BST/WHM full-time, with occasional BST/NIN in events, but that was only for shadows, not the dual-wield.

BST was built around this idea that the master is super-squishy, and out in the wilderness when you solo or low-man, you needed /WHM and you need as much MP gear as you can get. Obviously the arrival of /DNC changed all jobs to a certain extent, and the level 75+ era changed BST itself completely, and ILVL gear made all jobs quite uniformly Robocop. But underlying it was really that the beastmaster was a kind of wilderness druid, a mage job with axes and a natural affinity with all wild beasts. There was never a suggestion that this job was a front-line soldier type of job, and in the 2004~2010 years the BST job was actually a master of white magic, carefully using MP and spells to stay safe while the charmed beasts did the fighting almost out of visual range.

I think this is the problem, the job has changed so much, and the ilvl game is so different, that the original core nature of jobs have struggled to adapt. Sometimes SE will try to help jobs adapt, by changing them stronger/weaker, but what we are left with is some of the original jobs trying to play outside of their comfort zone.

[Skyrant_Kangaroomouse]

Beast Master was insanely powerful with their super cricket out. I was watching them slaughter normal difficulty avatars faster than a full group and clearing an entire screen full of incredibly toughs in a matter of seconds. So unless they have decreased the power of your pets since I've been away: something did need to happen. They were over-powered. There is just no denying that. Having that kind of damage coupled with the survivability of your pet while being able to stand safely out of the range of area attacks was God-mode. That's why everyone and their mother started leveling a beast master.

Also: every other melee dps on this game faces the dilemma of being killed by area attacks. This is nothing new: so it seems to me from reading this that Beast Master is just having to deal with the same crap every other melee class on this game has to.

I don't play Beast Master. Maybe the range is too small. I'm not saying it isn't. But some changes were necessary.

This change is like reducing the fuel tank of a super car because it goes too fast.
It sure did not change the fact that we still have the super cricket and can still do what we did before. I still laugh at all the melee trying to do as much damage as i do. You all still suck compared to a well geared BST.

The only thing the change did was make it annoying to play the job. So annoying that it is not fun any more. I settle for a 10 yalm range, but not this ridiculous 5 yalm nonsense.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Maybe the range is too small.

No maybe about it, I don't mind the change on the range (as such), but it's way too small, should have been at least double.


I still laugh at all the melee trying to do as much damage as i do. You all still suck compared to a well geared BST.

Comments like that is one of the reasons people called for a nerf in the first place.

[Malthar]

I don't know about you guys, but ever since the nerf I've lost a lot of interest in FFXI and started playing Elite: Dangerous more. I spend, maybe, an hour in FFXI now and the rest in Elite: Dangerous. It's become a more fun game now. How wrong is that?!

[Keido]

... so obviously the change didn't achieve it's intended purpose.

Yes it did. Already the bandwagon players have moved on from it and you are seeing the truly skilled players that love the job adapt and overcome. Pretty sure I stated that this was going to happen and it is. It exactly why we don't see BLU spam. The Reward to Power ratio is high but only if you really know the job and invest the time to understand and maximize it. Again this was the perfect solution and its having the desired effect.

[Jile]

This change has made BST completely unenjoyable and virtually unusable. This change was completely unnecessary and needs removed. I'm not a bandwagon player. This change makes me want to unsubscribe all three of my accounts and move on. A dmg decrease on pets for non RME could have been an easy first step. This change has all but deleted BST from the game. SE, please fix this egregious and unnecessary mistake.

[Dale]

Well, if they're insanely powerful with their super cricket whatever thingy, then why would they not adjust that instead of adjusting pet command range?


That's a good question.

Perhaps that would have been the better route to take. My point to you is that some changes were necessary. Rather or not this was the right change is dubious. But something did have to happen. The job was way out of whack. Those of you acting like this job was just fine the way it was are kidding yourselves.

What these changes do is force the Beast Master to get up close and take incoming damage. That's what it was intended to do. It was too powerful to have them sitting back out of harm's way tanking some of the most powerful notorious monsters in the game with their pets while doing crazy damage to boot. Any fair minded person who is not bias because they play the job should be able to admit that.

Again: rather or not this was the right way to go about it is not the argument I'm making. What I am doing is challenging your assertion that no changes were necessary because I believe changes were necessary.

[Dale]

This change is like reducing the fuel tank of a super car because it goes too fast.
It sure did not change the fact that we still have the super cricket and can still do what we did before. I still laugh at all the melee trying to do as much damage as i do. You all still suck compared to a well geared BST.

The only thing the change did was make it annoying to play the job. So annoying that it is not fun any more. I settle for a 10 yalm range, but not this ridiculous 5 yalm nonsense.

Perhaps.

My point is Beast Master was over-powered and it needed to be changed in some way. As I've stated: this may or may not have been the correct way to go about doing it. I've already conceded that. So that's not really a debate I'm interested in having. I'll let people who actually play the job hash that one out.

My objection is for those who suggest the job was fine and no changes were necessary. Because it was not fine and changes did need to happen. It was ridiculously over-powered.

So while it might be true we still all suck when compared to you: at least now you actually have to worry about area attacks and damage the way the rest of us melee jobs do.

[Jile]

SE could have placed the same limitation we have with trusts onto BST jugs, where we would have to be engaged and have pets disengage when we do, that would have tethered us to the pet and left us able to function. Right now the ja's functionality range is inconsistent and frustratingly overly tight.

I'd really rather my pets taken a dmg output Nerf than this mortal wound to functionality.

[Elexia]

SE could have placed the same limitation we have with trusts onto BST jugs, where we would have to be engaged and have pets disengage when we do, that would have tethered us to the pet and left us able to function. Right now the ja's functionality range is inconsistent and frustratingly overly tight.

I'd really rather my pets taken a dmg output Nerf than this mortal wound to functionality.

From a programming stand point that wouldn't have worked. The AI algorithms for player pets are more directly related to your control, that's why the other NPC partner you get is more likely to hold onto TP in order to try to skillchain with you and so on. It's like how SMN's pets will protect you if you aggro or get attacked but a BST's pet won't charmed or otherwise because lore wise, they're still wild beasts, but from a gameplay perspective, they're not there to "protect" you. Trusts can only function when it's "told" you're engaged due to limitations in the system otherwise they'd go college party wild on everything within range.

[Jile]

I understand what your saying Elexia; however, it wouldn't be hard for them to tie when we disengage it's the same as using heel, causing our pets to disengage too.

Ultimately any adjustments instead of this Nerf would be potentially better than the 2-yalm leash we have now.

[Olor]

Perhaps.

My point is Beast Master was over-powered and it needed to be changed in some way.

No, it was not. It was not. Seriously. Please show me the math where a BST was out damaging other DD jobs. They aren't. They weren't. Everything BST was doing could be done by other jobs. Just differently. Being able to do something differently that other jobs can still complete is not OP. SERIOUSLY. Being occasionally invited to a few endgame events for the first time in 13 years is NOT OP.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

No, it was not. It was not. Seriously. Please show me the math where a BST was out damaging other DD jobs. They aren't. They weren't. Everything BST was doing could be done by other jobs. Just differently. Being able to do something differently that other jobs can still complete is not OP. SERIOUSLY. Being occasionally invited to a few endgame events for the first time in 13 years is NOT OP.

Being able to do so in a way you guarantee success with absolutely no risk is OP. Don't get me wrong though, this was NOT the way to go about fixing that.

[Olor]

Being able to do so in a way you guarantee success with absolutely no risk is OP.

Good thing that never happened. Seriously - people need to stop lying about BST.

[detlef]

Uh, are you sure that never happened? In my experience, it happened.

[Olor]

Uh, are you sure that never happened? In my experience, it happened.

Really? Please do show me an event where a BST never ever failed, not once.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Really? Please do show me an event where a BST never ever failed, not once.

Any event can be failed no matter how OP a job is if the player is bad, If that is the basis of argument it's a silly one.

BST's could send in one or more pets who can kill the enemy while you yourself have little to no no chance of dying, that is a flawed system and I imagine were it a job you don't play as you'd see that too.

[kylani]

I don't know about you guys, but ever since the nerf I've lost a lot of interest in FFXI and started playing Elite: Dangerous more. I spend, maybe, an hour in FFXI now and the rest in Elite: Dangerous. It's become a more fun game now. How wrong is that?!

I've never heard of Elite:Dangerous, but it has to be better than the housework and laundry that I've been doing. I'm gonna check it out, lol.

[detlef]

Really? Please do show me an event where a BST never ever failed, not once.I don't think we can even have a discussion if that's your definition of success and overpowered. BST could provide the closest thing to safe, guaranteed success as is possible in this game which is played by humans. Hey, I liked it. I enjoyed PTing with BSTs and reaped some benefits from it. But it was overpowered.

Continue to argue about the overkill of the adjustment if you like, I think that's a valid concern I share.

[kylani]

Overpowered has become a pronoun to me. I don't know how you say 'any job' = overpowered when there is so much range in play style, merits, and particularly jp.

Are ALL BSTs overpowered or just BSTs with maxed everything? Do people who judge know all the factors between the melee and BST they are judging? Believe it or not, there are people playing the game who don't have maxed everything, and don't necessarily even want maxed everything. I have melee friends who laugh at the idea that a maxed BST pet can out damage them. BST does get an edge that they can stay out of the AOE, but the trade off is BST kills slower. The way the jobs are geared can make quite a difference between the gap.

I agree that a maxed pet shouldn't be as good as maxed melee, and if that is true, I agree damage should be nerfed. (I don't know because I am not maxed with none of the best gear). I do know this range is ridiculous. I should be able to trigger commands when I am fighting with my pet.

It seems this game has become too elitist. There is so much to do here, such rich story, but all that seems to matter is that Person A's job is better than Person B's.

[detlef]

I maintain it never should have been about putting a jug pet side by set with a decked out melee and comparing results. The damage was impressive a lot of the time for sure. But what really put BST on another level was how you could skimp on healing and support while having a high success rate. That's really what separated them from melee, which are generally high maintenance in comparison. If you had a choice wouldn't you bring a BST every time?

[Ataraxia]

Being able to do so in a way you guarantee success with absolutely no risk is OP. Don't get me wrong though, this was NOT the way to go about fixing that.

It seem like your someone who hasn't been playing FFXI for a long time and have not explore all the job carefully. Did you know that Ranger and Blm are safe job? They have always been like that for a very long time. BST was the same way for the past 12 years. With current September update SMN is now a safe job with that boost to range.



Here are links i like to share with everyone and Akihiro Matsui.

FFXI Yorcia Weald Delve 1-5 + Boss (4 people) March 14, 2015. Amazing Video but BST can't do 99,999 dmg like SMN. clear time is 12 minute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvqyMyZM1qY


FFXI Incursion Level 135 Vanquisher Gramk-Droog March 28, 2014. Bard and SMN can keep any DD from getting one shot with Sentinel's Scherzo and Earthen Armor. If that had been BST pet even if you're well gear it probably take tons of damage, be difficult to keep it alive with reward, and die.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXnD9w8XDz0



I save the best for last. FFXI - SCH Kamihr Delve Solo (1-5 + Utkux) May 11, 2015. 37 minute clear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UQwlVQ-M8c

This very same person Mischief17 can solo all Delve zone 1-5 + Boss without trust. The toughest zone is Kamihr Delve and for him to solo it was amazing Taru and very skilled. People should respect all Taru because they aren't a Joke. Dev Team should hire these people because they slow everyone the way to play FFXI to it's fullest.




Now ask yourself a question can BST do this solo? HELL NO! If they can than i like to see some evidence videos. All job do amazing things when you got a Cor, Brd, Geo, Rdm around to help. I do not like to see any Nerf to any more job but I like to see other job improve and close the cap to be good in a unique way. Make sure you go earn your 1200 job points stop hating and show BST some love and learn how to play your job. =)

[kylani]

I maintain it never should have been about putting a jug pet side by set with a decked out melee and comparing results. The damage was impressive a lot of the time for sure. But what really put BST on another level was how you could skimp on healing and support while having a high success rate. That's really what separated them from melee, which are generally high maintenance in comparison. If you had a choice wouldn't you bring a BST every time?

I was referring to people who said that a pet alone was more overpowered than a DD. I agree there's a balance to the relationship, but that's a difficult balance. It's pretty clear cut the pet alone shouldn't do more damage than an equally geared DD. As I said, my friends laughed when I asked how powerful BST was when I was curious about all the hub bub.

Given that when DD and WHM could do most of abysssea faster than my BST and a PUP friend, I'd likely always choose BST period. I have a 99 whm, and personally, I sure as heck would pick BST, PUP, DRG, SMN, DNC party over any DD even if the DDs were a lot better, and I'd have the DRG go /rdm. :)

DDs are needy but it's always been that way. Why do you think generally more people like DD than healer/support? I don't think it's because DD is harder. I could tell so many AFK and Football watching DD stories here...

I'd pick a group of people who love to have fun on ANY job over the best DDs in the game.

Why do you want the range nerfed more than the damage? It seems like you want the job to suck so bad that others will party with you even if it's a lot more work for them. Why should BST be killed so that WHMs will put up with DDs? Why not make DDs more self-sufficient? Maybe make WHMs Meleeing fighting fun healers, so fun can be had by all? Sure it changes how jobs have worked for years, but BST should suck up this range nerf. Maybe all jobs should?

Personally, I'd rather the range nerf be adjusted to let me melee with my pet, and some consideration to helping with gear like allowing augments to both master and pet but maybe halving/reducing the buff so it's spread across both more evenly.

[detlef]

I don't really have anything to say to most of your post but I didn't ask for a nerf. I did say it was OP and I enjoyed it while it was. I also think that SE's solution to the perceived problem could stand to be tweaked a bit while remaining true to their BST playstyle intentions (adjusting the distance to something a little more manageable for example).

To me, I see this nerf as a reaction to something that SE just wasn't comfortable designing and adjusting content around. I think a good parallel is Embrava which was so good and lasted for such a long time that every strat used it. Something simply had to be done and most reasonable people understood that at the time even though it sure was a nice crutch to have. Basically, SE couldn't balance content for groups with and without Embrava. I think that's what SE had in mind when they made the adjustment. Maybe they went too far, who knows. I mean depending on who you ask the job is either just fine or completely unplayable.

[kylani]

I don't really have anything to say to most of your post but I didn't ask for a nerf. I did say it was OP and I enjoyed it while it was. I also think that SE's solution to the perceived problem could stand to be tweaked a bit while remaining true to their BST playstyle intentions (adjusting the distance to something a little more manageable for example).

To me, I see this nerf as a reaction to something that SE just wasn't comfortable designing and adjusting content around. I think a good parallel is Embrava which was so good and lasted for such a long time that every strat used it. Something simply had to be done and most reasonable people understood that at the time even though it sure was a nice crutch to have. Basically, SE couldn't balance content for groups with and without Embrava. I think that's what SE had in mind when they made the adjustment. Maybe they went too far, who knows. I mean depending on who you ask the job is either just fine or completely unplayable.

I agree with you. To me the difference here is SE nerfed a core job ability BST has had since day one that is a regular ability and our way of doing content. Embrava and Perfect Defense were one ability that could only be used every hour (don't remember if it was 2 hours back then). When these were nerfed, SE also adjusted the content to be less difficult because embrava and PD were pretty much required to do the content (or felt to be, anyway).

This does very much remind me of these nerfs. A good friend quit over the PD nerf even though he was also both happy SMN was finally wanted, but annoyed at all the bandwagon SMNs because he had always loved SMN and took pride in his ability. At the same time, I don't think many folks really wanted to level SMN for PD, but they felt they had to, and were helped by people wanting to do endgame. They kinda 'took one for the team'. My son leveled Scholar because of embrava and ended up loving Scholar.

So I saw both sides. My friend had loved the game and leveled most jobs anyway, but the whole debacle soured him on the game. My son didn't love the nerf, but didn't get as upset as our SMN friend because he hadn't had the same experience of finally seeing a job he loved wanted then nerfed. If it were up to me, I'd have preferred the content to have been adjusted more. These were skills that you could only do every hour (maybe 2 hours back then, I don't remember now). For a 2 hour, 5 minutes down to 90 seconds was harsh (even if you had a corsair 'win' the ability back for another try, it was still limited). I suspect most would have preferred to do the content with regular abilities than rely on this gimmick. I think I have bad feelings associated with every nerf that has occurred in the game.

Unlike PD and Embrava, SE didn't adjust the content here, and folks are doing the content just fine still, if not better now that they are over the idea that BST has to be used.

I don't recall people telling SCH and SMNs that they don't know how their job was meant to be played. Honestly, people who have never played BST saying we don't know how BST was meant to be played are the reason I find it hard to stay. It WAS a solo job for many of us. I have adjusted over the years, and could adjust again, but don't say it was never a solo job. I leveled other jobs in groups when I could party 3 hours a night, but I had a job and kids. If it hadn't been for BST, I'd have probably quit long ago. With BST, I could be on call, and level, and log out when a problem came up. Eventually, I could do the same on BLM and DRG, but BST is the job that made me feel like I could play casual when I needed to. So for me, a lot of this is personal, lol. Don't be attacking my favorite job for 12+ years.

I can play BST, but it's very frustrating chasing around for my pet. I can only imagine how frustrating it may be for BSTs trying to do endgame. Nerfs have come and gone, but now that the end of the game is in sight, will BST ever be adjusted to be fun again? It seems SE took the expedient way because they didn't care. So it makes it hard for me to care.

[kylani]

I don't really have anything to say to most of your post but I didn't ask for a nerf. I did say it was OP and I enjoyed it while it was. I also think that SE's solution to the perceived problem could stand to be tweaked a bit while remaining true to their BST playstyle intentions (adjusting the distance to something a little more manageable for example).

To me, I see this nerf as a reaction to something that SE just wasn't comfortable designing and adjusting content around. I think a good parallel is Embrava which was so good and lasted for such a long time that every strat used it. Something simply had to be done and most reasonable people understood that at the time even though it sure was a nice crutch to have. Basically, SE couldn't balance content for groups with and without Embrava. I think that's what SE had in mind when they made the adjustment. Maybe they went too far, who knows. I mean depending on who you ask the job is either just fine or completely unplayable.

fyi - Sorry if I went off on a rant. It's not directed at you at all. I typically delete these when I vent, but maybe if I leave this one, I'll have more closure. Thanks.

[Dale]

No, it was not. It was not. Seriously. Please show me the math where a BST was out damaging other DD jobs. They aren't. They weren't. Everything BST was doing could be done by other jobs. Just differently. Being able to do something differently that other jobs can still complete is not OP. SERIOUSLY. Being occasionally invited to a few endgame events for the first time in 13 years is NOT OP.

No offense Olor, but you're bias. You play the job and just don't want to admit it was too powerful. I can understand that. No one likes to be nerfed.

But the truth is you was out damaging other DD jobs. You was also out-tanking them for that matter; and soloing notorious monsters faster and easier than entire groups could and doing it all while safely staying out of range.

A lot of jobs aren't invited to endgame events. So that's not really a valid reason as to why they should get to be so powerful either.

Way I see it: there were two ways SE could begin to address this issue:

1. Tone down your super pets so you didn't have such crazy damage + survivability.

2. Force you to fight up close like other melee jobs so you are susceptible to area attacks.

They went with option 2 it looks like.

That being said: the range should be increased to the point Beast Masters can comfortably melee with their pets out. If you are on the monster's ass yet still can't issue a command - I'll happily concede that's a real problem and sounds annoying no doubt about it.

[bazookatooth]

No offense Olor, but you're bias. You play the job and just don't want to admit it was too powerful. I can understand that. No one likes to be nerfed.

But the truth is you was out damaging other DD jobs. You was also out-tanking them for that matter; and soloing notorious monsters faster and easier than entire groups could and doing it all while safely staying out of range.

A lot of jobs aren't invited to endgame events. So that's not really a valid reason as to why they should get to be so powerful either.

Way I see it: there were two ways SE could begin to address this issue:

1. Tone down your super pets so you didn't have such crazy damage + survivability.

2. Force you to fight up close like other melee jobs so you are susceptible to area attacks.

They went with option 2 it looks like.

That being said: the range should be increased to the point Beast Masters can comfortably melee with their pets out. If you are on the monster's ass yet still can't issue a command - I'll happily concede that's a real problem and sounds annoying no doubt about it.

He might be biased, but he's also correct. Do the math or Google it. There are spreadsheets available if you don't want to figure it out on your own. It's a fact. BST pets were never the best DDs. Get it out of your head. No matter how many time you say it, it will never be true. If you saw a bst pet doing better damage it's because that bst is better than other players. Not because the job is better. If geared and played at the same level with the same buffs, other jobs can easily out damage BST. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of game mechanics. Your opinion can't change the way the game works. That's just how it is. There is nothing to discuss on this front.

The only thing you should be discussing is survival, because that's the only thing unique about BST pets. It has to do with their HP. Because a pet can only be healed once ever 52 seconds or something like that (Without pooping money) a normal player can actually be healed for more damage over time. But, because a pet has high HP it can survive large AOE moves or breaks in healing without dieing. That's it. That's what needs to be brought to scale with players. In my opinion they could do that in various ways, but this nerf wasn't one of them. Personally, I think they need to raise player HP and defensive capabilities and lower pets HP somewhat to meet in the middle more. It's pretty stupid that you have to have a GEO and a WHM for all content that isn't soloable.

[Dale]

He might be biased, but he's also correct. Do the math or Google it. There are spreadsheets available if you don't want to figure it out on your own. It's a fact. BST pets were never the best DDs. Get it out of your head. No matter how many time you say it, it will never be true. If you saw a bst pet doing better damage it's because that bst is better than other players. Not because the job is better. If geared and played at the same level with the same buffs, other jobs can easily out damage BST. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of game mechanics. Your opinion can't change the way the game works. That's just how it is. There is nothing to discuss on this front.

The only thing you should be discussing is survival, because that's the only thing unique about BST pets. It has to do with their HP. Because a pet can only be healed once ever 52 seconds or something like that (Without pooping money) a normal player can actually be healed for more damage over time. But, because a pet has high HP it can survive large AOE moves or breaks in healing without dieing. That's it. That's what needs to be brought to scale with players. In my opinion they could do that in various ways, but this nerf wasn't one of them. Personally, I think they need to raise player HP and defensive capabilities and lower pets HP somewhat to meet in the middle more. It's pretty stupid that you have to have a GEO and a WHM for all content that isn't soloable.

I'll just quote another Beast Master in this thread for you:


This change is like reducing the fuel tank of a super car because it goes too fast.
It sure did not change the fact that we still have the super cricket and can still do what we did before. I still laugh at all the melee trying to do as much damage as i do. You all still suck compared to a well geared BST.


That was pretty much my experience as well. So I'm not sure what spreadsheets you are talking about: but chances are if this supposed DD really was out-damaging a Beast Master's super cricket it was because that DD was exceptionally geared and doing content very agreeable to him. But generally speaking - most DDs could only dream of putting out the kind of numbers a Beast Master can - to say nothing of their survivability. Which is relevant in context to damage anyway: because it's a lot easier to do damage when you don't have to worry about dying when you go to do it.

There was a reason the Beast Master population started to explode on this game.

[machini]

Dale, when you have a DD who has hundreds of millions of gil in gear, and a COR buffing their ACC/ATT, they are gonna do a shit ton of damage.

I don't think it is unreasonable that a BST who has spent 100/+ million gil on multiple gear sets, receiving BST-specific buffs, should outdamage someone's fudo SAM that's in unaugmented skirmish armor with an unaugmented nene.

BST was not the issue here. BST was fine for years. BST did not change. The content changed, and then BST became a problem. Ergo, it is the content's fault, or, more directly, the community. There are things that work a lot better in a lot of situations than BST BST BST BST BST COR. However, BST BST BST BST BST COR requires virtually no coordination or teamwork compared to other things to make it work. I honestly think that's what made it so popular.

As to people doing BST because pets, with their high HP relative to players, can survive high damage AoE: Most DDs refuse to wear any -DT gear. When I go to things with PUGs I frequently see people who "outdamage" me do far, far, far less damage because the TP move that hit them for 1700 damage while they weren't topped off only did 850 to me. People who focus purely on theoretical damage output without any thought to survivability are a large part of the reason why BST was so heavily used as they were.

[machini]

Also, Dale, the spreadsheets, though you may not know them, are very, very good at showing a theoretical maximum DPS, wherein one is never debuffed, stunned, knocked out of range, and WSes at exactly 1000TP. Too many people consider them some sort of Holy Bible for how to do things without understanding their limitations. Which, as I stated, most DDs are unprepared for high damage TP moves, as they display the mentality that "It's the white mage's job to keep me alive, so if I die, even due to my own stupidity and recklessness, it's not my fault and I am clearly not doing anything wrong that needs to be changed."

And I should say that it's not 'as they were'. I still see plenty of shouts for BST.

[detlef]

BST was not the issue here. BST was fine for years. BST did not change. The content changed, and then BST became a problem. Ergo, it is the content's fault, or, more directly, the community.You sure BST didn't change? Didn't SE change the way Ready worked? What about Run Wild, that's fairly recent isn't it? Did BST always have pets that did strong magical AoE attacks or a powerful evasion down effect? Stout Servant didn't exist at the 75 cap. Isn't Unleash super powerful?

Look, I obviously am no BST expert but they've been steadily building BST up for awhile including some radical improvements that make the job very powerful. The job has evolved quite a bit without grabbing the limelight until recently. Nobody cared when you were just attacking with CC but the pets have gotten much stronger and varied.

With that said, blaming the content is reasonable too because it's made BST look much more attractive compared to melee jobs.

[machini]

You sure BST didn't change? Didn't SE change the way Ready worked? What about Run Wild, that's fairly recent isn't it? Did BST always have pets that did strong magical AoE attacks or a powerful evasion down effect? Stout Servant didn't exist at the 75 cap. Isn't Unleash super powerful?

Look, I obviously am no BST expert but they've been steadily building BST up for awhile including some radical improvements that make the job very powerful. The job has evolved quite a bit without grabbing the limelight until recently. Nobody cared when you were just attacking with CC but the pets have gotten much stronger and varied.

With that said, blaming the content is reasonable too because it's made BST look much more attractive compared to melee jobs.

There are people who have complained directly to me that it's unfair that a DNC can outdamage them, despite there being several hundred million gil between how much I have spent on gear compared to them.

No job has remained the same since release. And BST did not change from what it was then to what it is now overnight. What did happen, more or less overnight, was people suddenly started demanding BST spam for absolutely everything and anything. Which is the fault of the community, for being unable or unwilling to do other things, and the fault of the content, for making pet spam the most attractive option by far for most people due to massive AoE.

When you can get someone who can do self double darkness reliably, and repeatedly, back to back to back to back as long as they are not stunned, paralyzed, petrified, terrored, or dead (which are all things that will screw BST pets over, too), with their ATT buffed through the roof so that they're at capped ATT/DEF ratio, they are going to do an absolute shit ton of damage. More than a single BST pet will do. The BSTs, however, only need 1 buffer and no healer, or needed no healer, whereas you'd need 2-4 non-DDs in the other party, depending on exact composition. An RDM/WHM and a GEO/WHM, if the two have decent cure potency and fast cast, can suffice in a lot of situations. In situations where they can't the BST pets are generally going to be just as screwed. Now throw in 3-4 Dual Wield DDs, all at attack speed cap, spamming hard-hitting WSes back to back to back, specifically WSes that will chain with each other just in case the timing is works out through the spam, and you're going to get some pretty massive damage.

Sometimes more DDs doesn't actually translate into more damage (but still adds more people the mob might want to kill before attacking the healer/WHM), because massive amounts of damage can be done via skillchains. Evisceration -> Shark Bite -> Pyrrhic Kleos/Rudra's Storm(/Mordant Rime, I guess) -> Evisceration -> Rudra's Storm can do an awful lot of damage from the skillchain damage, which can sometimes be more damage than multiple people just spamming WSes, or even trying to chain together, depending on exactly how much skillchain bonus the person or persons executing those WSes have.

One can make an argument that BST was too safe compared to other jobs, although I think it's a particularly weak argument, given the whole "either the pet or the master is functional, and the pet being function often means the master is in non-item level gear and no -DT gear", but the same argument goes for an A/O PLD in reforge AF/Relic/Empy, with a WHM standing by. No one complains that the PLD, with 100s of millions of gil in gear, with a person supporting them is too survivable, but people were levying the same charge against a BST with someone supporting them. One requires a WHM, the other a COR, but I've seen several PLDs who, except for the need to have paralysis and petrify removed for them, don't actually need a WHM to keep them alive. And, again, paralysis and petrify are things that completely screw over a BST, too.

An awful lot of this 'problem' seems to be a very vocal minority of people who are composed of the following two groups: People who have no idea how BST works, how much money is involved in getting it well geared, and are upset that BSTs do better than them; and certain people who constantly complain when anyone does better than their already strong-to-OP pet (as in favorite) job.

There are a very few people who are actually reasonable in saying that, yes, something should be done to rectify this situation, but that that 'something' should not be 'alter BST so that it becomes unviable in much of the content.'

[machini]

And for an example, as I mentioned in a previous post, of "DDs who cannot grasp survivability", I'd give as an example melee DDs who go to Avatar II fights without being /RUN because "it would hurt their DPS". I point out that having nothing but Shell on to mitigate massive magic damage hurts their DPS, too, which they don't get until they're hit for 2000/+ damage by an Astral Flow Blood Pact and promptly spend the rest of the fight in careful inspection and contemplation of the ground.

Actually, if you wanna get right down to it, a major part of BST survivability, in party environments, comes down to BSTs pulling out pets one after another after another. However, that costs gil. A lot of it. Stacks of Isleracea don't cost 1 million gil on Asura because it cures cancer. It's because BST became 'the correct and only way to do content' and that's required for some of the jugs.

[detlef]

Yeah, nobody complains that PLD and WHM have strangleholds for at least 2 PT slots for almost everything. In fact, during the times when you could DD tank things without PLD, people complained, insisting that you should always need a PLD. Weird.

DDs really are just crabs in a bucket.

[hakrev]

I see a lot of people implying that they did this nerf because it was so strong, or that it was able to fight safely away from the monster, but I have to ask, where have any of the dev's stated that's why they did it? Do any of us know the official reason? I'm just curious what the exact reason was. I mean if we explore the reasons that you all are listing as to why bst was tethered to the front lines it really doesn't make any sense. If they wanted the beastmaster to fight along side of their pet they should have made it so that bst could not "Call Beast" or use commands from x amount of distance from the monster. That's not what they did, they made it so we have to be leashed to the pet. So that whole argument pretty much is simply an opinion of why they did it.

So then it must be the great amount of damage they did? But wait...the damage wasn't gimped at all. Neither was the ability to tank things? So I have to wonder what WAS the reason? Was it that beastmasters were clearing content they shouldn't have been? Well...no that's not it either or they would have made adjustments to the content (ie pet enmity is ignored, which is what they have done in the past). So no that can't be it at all. We're all kind of left wondering just what on earth was the reason? I can't think of a single one why you would strap a leash around the beastmaster (player) on a job that's own description says that it's a job to control pets.

The problem that it all stems down to when you take all the non-sense and hearsay away is that in some way they thought, "Hey Summoner has a 15 yalm range, why does beast have a larger range, lets give summon a bigger range and beastmaster less of a range." Which is basically exactly what they did. So despite whatever players feel about the reason is really might not be the reason at all. I think it would be reasonable to conclude that if that's what their reasoning was, which is still just my own opinion and nothing more, then why not try to get the 15 yalms for beastmaster? seems the most fair and balanced approach to just simple swap the ranges of the two jobs. 5 yalms is too tiny, we all know that, there is no opinion that can justify that range. 10-15 yalms is reasonable, there is no reason why not. And as for wanting beastmasters to melee, that is simply the stupidest argument of them all. Even with a mythic your damage will be horrible compared to your pet's damage dealing and come on that whole argument is basically saying that "SE thinks beastmaster should do MORE damage because it's not doing enough, go melee, do more damage! get hit with paralyze every 1 second so your timers are all screwed up! Yeah that'll fix the job..."

My point is that there's a ton of people saying it's this or that and frankly we don't know the exact reason, all we can do is look at what they did, and they increased summon range and decreased beast range (too much). Your opinions that it was overpowered in this that or the other thing are YOUR opinions, not absolute truth. I have opinions about rngs and blu's and plds and whm against how powerful they are, but honestly do I want them nerfed because of it? No. IDK why the ffxi community is so volatile, but it's really regressed in recent years. You know what we should be complaining about more than this or that job being 'too powerful?' We should be complaining about the side-grades we keep getting. Like escha, there's is no point in it, it's all just more 119 rare/exclusive gear that is marginally better than the 119 unity or 119 delve or 119 skirmish gear or 119 Vagary, or 119 H-T Battlefield gear. Who cares if bst was better (which in reality it wasn't, and isn't, and never was except when we could -100% dmg in aby) in the new content, when the content itself isn't even worth bothering about to begin with. What a fussy and ridiculous community we've become >.> and no wonder ppl are jumping ship. Complaining about jobs being too powerful because of xyz is just playing into SE's idle hands, they are releasing content that is boring/irrelevant and stagnating the community, you want to be mad about something be mad at that, not about xyz jobs being too powerful and helping YOU clear YOUR content MORE QUICKLY! When SE nerf's we all lose. None of us gained anything from bst getting this change and there's nothing you can say to make me think any of you could possibly be happy that another job was nerfed into oblivion 2 months before major updates end. I just don't buy it unless you're a cave troll roaming the internet looking to become the next great keyboard warrior >.>

[Fynlar]

The reason's kinda irrelevant when no matter how you slice it is was a heavy handed "fix" that did nothing to address the actual "problem" with BST (assuming you think there was ever actually any problem with it to begin with) and will only serve to alienate more solo-style players in a dying game where solo-style play has had to become more and more prevalent out of sheer necessity.

[Stompa]

I think the reason this job nerf thread and other similar recent threads have had such bionic legs, is really that FFXI original game was groundbreaking in creating so many unique and individual jobs, with real personalities and unique strengths / weaknesses.

For example, BST as pet job, people will compare with SMN, PUP, DRG. Notably, SMN PUP DRG pets will actively heal the master. BST primary job ability was always charm, that was your BST power ability. And yet charm pets did not cure the master. Charm pets often tried to kill the beastmaster, and would often link with a dozen nearby mobs to hilariously rip the BST to shreds.

Charm was a super-powerful ability, and unique to BST. The Barbarian Nomad, master of the wilderness! This is one of many FFXI unique job profiles, all the jobs were unique and individual, with powers and weaknesses and personalities that were entirely their own. Even if we bracket BST PUP SMN DRG together as pet jobs, they were completely unique, and weaker/stronger in different ways and different settings.

You could spend time mastering a job, and learning what the main strengths and weaknesses were. Many of us fell in love with our main jobs, we grew to adore the job's unique characteristics. We may not have got invited to events, but many of us really did not care, because we actually loved playing our main job which everyone else said was lol. We got very protective and sensitive about changes to our favourite jobs!

This was always the danger in the 2010-2015 era of trying to form a sort of uniform job soup, with gear that stat-bombs everyone, and trying to make all jobs suitable in all situations. Many people did want this to happen, but it did come at a price, which was the loss of the original unique job characteristics and quirky strengths/weaknesses.

I agree with the statements that the nerfed range for pet commands is too short, I hope they will re-think this and give BST a more realistic pet-command range. But I also hoped for automaton /lockstyle pyjamas, and that did not happen!

[Alhanelem]

Charm was a super-powerful ability, and unique to BSTThe biggest problem with charm is that really you just couldn't use it in some places. BST could only be effective in the open world and was virtually useless in 99% of BC fights, which didn't allow anything to be charmed in 99% of cases because charm would trivialize the fight (what easier way to win than to make each of the mobs in a BC fight attack each other?). It also depended on an area having mobs of types that make sense to be charmable. The shift in focus to jug pets was most likely more meant to allow BST to be useable everywhere instead of only here and there. You say people didn't care if they didn't get invited to events, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think people would have enjoyed their favorite job more if they could use it to get things done instead of it being more a novelty (or troll, in some cases in the early days :p ).

As fun as it was, to have the whole job revolve around charm was not really the best decision from a good game design perspective. Competing for charmable targets was common in the early days. There were lots of problems because of this. It wasn't a sustainable design, as any time BSTs got near eachother or other parties there was inevitable disputes, which typically ended with one MPKing the other person or party.

Also the "stat vomit" or whatever you ant to call it has absolutely nothing to do with this "job soup" thing you're talking about. It exists purely to scale us to being pseudo-level 119. it by itself does nothing to make jobs more or less similar.

[Alhanelem]

On the "being invited to events" subject, I used to bang my head against the wall over this, until one day in my Moghouse, I discovered a button marked "Change Jobs" and my life was never the same again! I could do events on WHM and WAR, and then roam the wilderness on my BST, using Charm.I fail to see the point in including a job in the game if it can't be put to good use throughout the game. As much fun as it is to mess around, that's no justification to keep a job functionally inferior. As much fun as I had playing and soloing on PUP, I wanted more than anything for it to be usable (which it wasn't for the longest time).

So your sarcasm and snarkiness isn't appriciated. I should be able to use any job and be useful in content, not just WHM and WAR and (insert mainstream job here). I shouldn't be FORCED to press the Change Job button, I should be pressing it because I want to play that job and not because I have to.

I went through all of the last 12 years finding ways to beat content with the jobs I enjoyed the most. I had no problem doing this, inspite of all the people insisting that you must be XYZ job to be useful (which IMO is bad game design). I beat most of CoP on SMN inspite of the alleged "uselessness" and the crap I got for playing a mage job as a Galka was unbelieveable. But I did it anyway, and we had fun, and in the end it didn't really matter. So to hell with conformity.

[kylani]

The biggest problem with charm is that really you just couldn't use it in some places. BST could only be effective in the open world and was virtually useless in 99% of BC fights, which didn't allow anything to be charmed in 99% of cases because charm would trivialize the fight (what easier way to win than to make each of the mobs in a BC fight attack each other?). It also depended on an area having mobs of types that make sense to be charmable. The shift in focus to jug pets was most likely more meant to allow BST to be useable everywhere instead of only here and there. You say people didn't care if they didn't get invited to events, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think people would have enjoyed their favorite job more if they could use it to get things done instead of it being more a novelty (or troll, in some cases in the early days :p ).

As fun as it was, to have the whole job revolve around charm was not really the best decision from a good game design perspective. Competing for charmable targets was common in the early days. There were lots of problems because of this. It wasn't a sustainable design, as any time BSTs got near eachother or other parties there was inevitable disputes, which typically ended with one MPKing the other person or party.

Also the "stat vomit" or whatever you ant to call it has absolutely nothing to do with this "job soup" thing you're talking about. It exists purely to scale us to being pseudo-level 119. it by itself does nothing to make jobs more or less similar.

BST was actually a pretty friendly BCNM job even though jugs were very weak by today's standards. Back then, it wasn't as easy to level multiple jobs, so I think people worked harder at figuring out different ways to do content than they do today.

My experiences with parties were that they would show up at my out of the way camp, and I'd move to another area or log to craft till they were done. I did not camp at the normal party spots, and I put up a search comment so other BSTs would know what I was exping on. More often than not, another BST would ask to duo if the camp was suited for it, and we both got better exp. If a party were at a camp, the last thing I wanted to do was camp near them and have them killing pets that I needed to charm.

To me, parties were much more unfriendly than BSTs. Finding camp spots was a pain back in those days, so I understood how a party felt if they were trying to find somewhere to exp and another party or a BST was there. As BST, I had no problem relocating or logging for a bit, but some parties assumed the worst till we talked. Parties got just as upset with other parties and could be pretty intense. I don't think BSTs were any more malicious or any nicer than other jobs. I had far more stressful experiences in parties when leaders fought over camps. I hated it when our parties were fighting over mobs, and it was frustrating how many parties would camp on top of another, and then bring in a PL, etc. BST was pretty stress free. I know BSTs who did MPK when they felt they were wronged, but I also knew plenty of non-BST folks who liked to cause bedlam by training onto parties. People are just different. BSTs could also be very helpful. I duod in Crawlers Nest a lot, and we'd often get tells to help clear trains at the door. We liked pulling the mobs away so parties could get going again. I wonder if my server was very different than most. I never felt the hatred towards BST that I feel today.

End game was very different for BST though. BST was unsuitable in most cases, so I went on RDM initially, then BRD and BLM. I never minded doing end game on a job other than BST. I loved dynamis. I enjoyed Sky less, but that was due to the fighting over the Gods, not the job they asked me to play. Abyssea was great fun because I could duo with a PUP. I did mind when it came to skirmish and delve, and by then, jugs had become the BST staple. Jugs were incredibly weak and inaccurate though, so it mostly bugged me that a tier 1 blm nuke did so much damage and my pet could barely even hit, much less do much damage in Adoulin, so I couldn't run around on my own as BST much at all to support my BST habit.

I have mixed feelings about the gear. I liked AF, Relic, Empyrean that was specific to the job even though it is nice being able to use gear for more than one job now that we have so many jobs. I'd rather have gear more specific to me and my pet, than stat vomit basics, with augments where I have to pick between me and my pet on every piece.

[Alhanelem]

But that would also mean making all jobs more uniform and similar.No, it doesn't mean this at all. That's the *easiest* method to achieve balance, but not the only way.



My old LS pretty much forced me to level RDM and BRD, I hated the idea, but I levelled those jobs to be used in events.I joined linkshells that needed the jobs I had to offer and by so doing was able to play what I enjoyed while still being a contributor. If I had to level up a job as a condition to join or stay in an LS, I would simply leave it.

See, there were many ways to play this game. You were able to be a jack of trades, like you describe, or you could specialize and focus on a few. Neither way was wrong.

[kylani]

I fail to see the point in including a job in the game if it can't be put to good use throughout the game. As much fun as it is to mess around, that's no justification to keep a job functionally inferior. As much fun as I had playing and soloing on PUP, I wanted more than anything for it to be usable (which it wasn't for the longest time).

So your sarcasm and snarkiness isn't appriciated. I should be able to use any job and be useful in content, not just WHM and WAR and (insert mainstream job here). I shouldn't be FORCED to press the Change Job button, I should be pressing it because I want to play that job and not because I have to.

I went through all of the last 12 years finding ways to beat content with the jobs I enjoyed the most. I had no problem doing this, inspite of all the people insisting that you must be XYZ job to be useful (which IMO is bad game design). I beat most of CoP on SMN inspite of the alleged "uselessness" and the crap I got for playing a mage job as a Galka was unbelieveable. But I did it anyway, and we had fun, and in the end it didn't really matter. So to hell with conformity.

I agree with both you and Stompa on this. I was more like Stompa, in that I enjoyed the other jobs too. I know people who absolutely hated that they couldn't do end game on their main. Our dynamis leader would allow BSTs and PUPs to go. BST wasn't good for dynamis, so I preferred to go as another job, but I really never understood why people were so anti-Pup. I know Pup has evolved over time, but even back then, it seemed like a very useful versatile job. A good pup was a joy to watch.

People are different. All people should be able to enjoy their jobs.

[kylani]

So maybe SE are right that BST needed to be rebalanced somehow, I just think that the pet command range may have taken the fun rather than the Op out of BST.

I love this line. That sums up how I feel.

I kinda wish SE had put charmable non-aggroing pets in end game and weakened jugs again (non aggroing for the non-BSTs, not to make it easy on BST). That would probably be a hot mess, but I'd have to re-sub if they did just to try, lol.

I doubt most end game groups would want to take a BST with a pet that could un-charm and turn on you. It would add too much chaotic fun to the cookie cutter world. :)

[Alhanelem]

So maybe SE are right that BST needed to be rebalanced somehow, I just think that the pet command range may have taken the fun rather than the Op out of BST.That's pretty much what it did, by all accounts I've heard. It's still OP, the only thing that was nerfed was the fun factor.

[Alhanelem]

You can't really weaken jugs (too much) because in non-open world content you don't have a choice.

[bazookatooth]

I personally think they should have adjusted the pets HP and reward timers so that it was more similar to a normal player. Ie giving the pets like 3k hp instead of 5-6k and reducing the reward timer to like 30 seconds. That way pets wouldn't be able to survive high damage AOE moves too much better than normal characters, pet foods other than theta would serve a purpose again and people wouldn't be able to tank things nearly as well with a pet. They should also give front line DDs a native resistance to AOE damage, so that they still have to use DT- sets when they pull hate, but don't get raped just for showing up.

[kylani]

You can't really weaken jugs (too much) because in non-open world content you don't have a choice.

That's why I said add charmable mobs, but I agree it's not practical. I just miss charm. :)

[Singforu]

I fail to see the point in including a job in the game if it can't be put to good use throughout the game. As much fun as it is to mess around, that's no justification to keep a job functionally inferior. As much fun as I had playing and soloing on PUP, I wanted more than anything for it to be usable (which it wasn't for the longest time).

So your sarcasm and snarkiness isn't appriciated. I should be able to use any job and be useful in content, not just WHM and WAR and (insert mainstream job here). I shouldn't be FORCED to press the Change Job button, I should be pressing it because I want to play that job and not because I have to.

I went through all of the last 12 years finding ways to beat content with the jobs I enjoyed the most. I had no problem doing this, inspite of all the people insisting that you must be XYZ job to be useful (which IMO is bad game design). I beat most of CoP on SMN inspite of the alleged "uselessness" and the crap I got for playing a mage job as a Galka was unbelieveable. But I did it anyway, and we had fun, and in the end it didn't really matter. So to hell with conformity.

This is ridiculous. All jobs are useful to a point (some NMs have certain resistances/immunities). Each job has it's strengths and weaknesses. You have to use a variety of jobs to complete content.... 18x WAR is not going to cut it. You should not be whining that you should be entitled to come whatever you want. If you only have one or two jobs, then you aren't being flexible enough and if you attend the event in that state you are just leeching and hurting the group. Yes there is usually more than one way to complete content, but if your group is 17/18 and has no WHM, guess what... you need to pony up and go WHM. The leader of your group should be looking at the strengths of each of the players. If you're a yagrush WHM and your DD isn't as good as the other DDs.... don't complain if you get chosen to come WHM.

[Zeargi]

That's why I said add charmable mobs, but I agree it's not practical. I just miss charm. :)

But it even becomes less practical when in arenas and other places that have nothing for BSTs. I said it once, and I'll say it again. BST was fine, it was the content that's the problem. You can't except people to stand next to a SMN mob or even another BST job. Why would anyone stand anywhere close to a mob that has a super AoE Doom, Amnesia, Mute, Weaken TP move. I get it that it's designed to be a challenge, but there's a fine line between balance and poor design. WHM, SCH, and SMN all have restorative moves, but none to remove Mute, Weaken, or Amnesia. Even RDM and WHM's Bar-spells verse that barely keep the effect short enough. A PLD that can't provoke when the mob runs wild is deadly, even more so when said thing decides to cast some other AoE TP move or Fast Cast -ja spells. If SE wants people to 'take more risks', then they need to give the tools to do so! BST has to choose on which to survive, but also has the problem of that if they become inflicted with Amnesia that can't do anything for their pets. PLDs that can't WS, JA, or cast spell are useless. I mean look at NIN, they were completely cast out of things because of all the AoE stuff, but looking back you can see how SE intended the job to be played by watching the AI of the mobs. They stood at a distance casting Ninjutsu and throwing shurikens, but as the players used it, it became a Tanking job and SE added tools to help it fill that role. Give people the means to survive and take those chances, and most people will. Not everyone wants to spend 4 hours shouting for XYZ jobs... *Drops mic* I'm out!

[kylani]

But it even becomes less practical when in arenas and other places that have nothing for BSTs. I said it once, and I'll say it again. BST was fine, it was the content that's the problem. You can't except people to stand next to a SMN mob or even another BST job. Why would anyone stand anywhere close to a mob that has a super AoE Doom, Amnesia, Mute, Weaken TP move. I get it that it's designed to be a challenge, but there's a fine line between balance and poor design. WHM, SCH, and SMN all have restorative moves, but none to remove Mute, Weaken, or Amnesia. Even RDM and WHM's Bar-spells verse that barely keep the effect short enough. A PLD that can't provoke when the mob runs wild is deadly, even more so when said thing decides to cast some other AoE TP move or Fast Cast -ja spells. If SE wants people to 'take more risks', then they need to give the tools to do so! BST has to choose on which to survive, but also has the problem of that if they become inflicted with Amnesia that can't do anything for their pets. PLDs that can't WS, JA, or cast spell are useless. I mean look at NIN, they were completely cast out of things because of all the AoE stuff, but looking back you can see how SE intended the job to be played by watching the AI of the mobs. They stood at a distance casting Ninjutsu and throwing shurikens, but as the players used it, it became a Tanking job and SE added tools to help it fill that role. Give people the means to survive and take those chances, and most people will. Not everyone wants to spend 4 hours shouting for XYZ jobs... *Drops mic* I'm out!

That is pretty much what I heard from friends. They didn't say BST was OP, just better for the content, and they are managing fine without a BST. Course my friends are skillful players with excellent gear and probably max jp by now. I don't do current end game, so it's hard for me to judge the OP part. I know mine is not OP, but I only have a hundred+ job points and a decent combination of 119 gear, and I'll never have mad skills. I have noticed the improvement as I have gotten job points and better gear, but I can still die quick enough if I'm not careful, or even if I am, lol. I was hardly standing there eating popcorn while my pet fights with the content I was doing. :)

I don't think people should be required to have max everything to participate in end game. You shouldn't have to rely purely on gimmicks of a few lucky jobs, and people shouldn't be forced to play a job they don't like just to get end game gear. For this content, there are a lot of better answers than this 5 yalm range nerf. It makes no sense.

[bazookatooth]

This is ridiculous. All jobs are useful to a point (some NMs have certain resistances/immunities). Each job has it's strengths and weaknesses. You have to use a variety of jobs to complete content.... 18x WAR is not going to cut it. You should not be whining that you should be entitled to come whatever you want. If you only have one or two jobs, then you aren't being flexible enough and if you attend the event in that state you are just leeching and hurting the group. Yes there is usually more than one way to complete content, but if your group is 17/18 and has no WHM, guess what... you need to pony up and go WHM. The leader of your group should be looking at the strengths of each of the players. If you're a yagrush WHM and your DD isn't as good as the other DDs.... don't complain if you get chosen to come WHM.

That's not at all what he's saying and you know it. There is a big difference between "We need you to come on white mage because we have no healer..." and "We need you to come on some other job because your favorite job just sucks.".

[Alhanelem]

This is ridiculous. All jobs are useful to a pointIt's not ridiculous. Most jobs are quite usable now and it's rare that you entirely can't use one in any given content. But it wasn't always that way, and just because something is possible, doesn't mean people are willing to accept it.

Also, what bazooka said.

Personally, while I don't just play one job, I do prefer to earn my gear and stuff on the job that I intend to use it with. e.g. I'd rather earn SMN stuff by playing SMN, SCH stuff by playing SCH, etc.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I personally think they should have adjusted the pets HP and reward timers so that it was more similar to a normal player. Ie giving the pets like 3k hp instead of 5-6k and reducing the reward timer to like 30 seconds. That way pets wouldn't be able to survive high damage AOE moves too much better than normal characters, pet foods other than theta would serve a purpose again and people wouldn't be able to tank things nearly as well with a pet. They should also give front line DDs a native resistance to AOE damage, so that they still have to use DT- sets when they pull hate, but don't get raped just for showing up.

Then they'd need to reduce Call Beast timer by some margin, HP, isn't the problem. TBH I'm not sure what they could do to BST without it impacting them massively.

[Dale]

Dale, when you have a DD who has hundreds of millions of gil in gear, and a COR buffing their ACC/ATT, they are gonna do a shit ton of damage.

I don't think it is unreasonable that a BST who has spent 100/+ million gil on multiple gear sets, receiving BST-specific buffs, should outdamage someone's fudo SAM that's in unaugmented skirmish armor with an unaugmented nene.

BST was not the issue here. BST was fine for years. BST did not change. The content changed, and then BST became a problem. Ergo, it is the content's fault, or, more directly, the community. There are things that work a lot better in a lot of situations than BST BST BST BST BST COR. However, BST BST BST BST BST COR requires virtually no coordination or teamwork compared to other things to make it work. I honestly think that's what made it so popular.

As to people doing BST because pets, with their high HP relative to players, can survive high damage AoE: Most DDs refuse to wear any -DT gear. When I go to things with PUGs I frequently see people who "outdamage" me do far, far, far less damage because the TP move that hit them for 1700 damage while they weren't topped off only did 850 to me. People who focus purely on theoretical damage output without any thought to survivability are a large part of the reason why BST was so heavily used as they were.

The problem with your post Machini is that Beast Master did change. So your post extends from a false premise.

What changed is that SE gave Beast Masters access to insanely powerful pets who have both massive damage and survivability. That is also why you saw the job's role change: which was almost exclusively a niche solo job before: then changed into a preferred method for dealing with endgame content. This is why you saw the Beast Master population begin to change as well, from very few to so many. So to suggest Beast Masters didn't change - it was the content that did - just isn't dealing with the reality.

This game has always had content that puts melee DPS at a disadvantage. It's been a fair and consistent criticism of this game since it's inception: and is the primary reason so many jobs get left out in the cold. So that is nothing new about this game. It's something melee jobs have been dealing with for well over a decade on FFXI.

As far as wearing -DT gear... that sounds easy enough in theory. But it's not so easy to deck your character out in a lot of -DT gear and still maintain a healthy offense capable of consistently hitting and doing damage to the notorious monster. So either way you look at: melee DPS are put at a significant disadvantage. It's not just because players are stubborn and refuse to adapt. It's because the game's design itself makes it hard for them.

[Olor]

That's not at all what he's saying and you know it. There is a big difference between "We need you to come on white mage because we have no healer..." and "We need you to come on some other job because your favorite job just sucks.".

And this is where BST was for years. And everytime it's ever gotten good enough to be useable in content it gets nerfed.

"BST soloing exp is hard but cool" - NERFT
"BST is OK at dynamis farming" - NERFT
"BST is good in one or two group events" - NERFT

etc etc

[Elexia]

And this is where BST was for years. And everytime it's ever gotten good enough to be useable in content it gets nerfed.

"BST soloing exp is hard but cool" - NERFT
"BST is OK at dynamis farming" - NERFT
"BST is good in one or two group events" - NERFT

etc etc

BST soloing for exp was never nerfed unless you mean the switch to Abyssea where the outside world was pretty useless in comparison to level?
BST only had a tiny form of TH (like BLU) unless they went /thf, pretty sure they can still farm dynamis if they want to.
BST is good in one or two group events - "/shout BST PARTIES ONLY PLZ TY." < this is what brought the attention.

You know what's good in group events? WHMs. Guess by that logic WHM is next to be nerfed, eh?

[Arthos]

/shout BST PARTIES ONLY PLZ TY." < this is what brought the attention.


BST in party only works this way, thanks to the supportjob design. This is intended by SE, and not BST player's fault.

Can also do other setups, it doesnt matter much if you fight a T1 Escha NM with BST x 3, or a setup which consists of PLD/RDM/DD.
The second setup has one problem: Each member has to be good. The BST setup needs only one good player, which makes it very PUG friendly.

[Jopa-Sopa]

"BST is OK at dynamis farming" - NERFT

It still is, no? Fast ability procs, best AoE killer for fast Odious farming, and great at killing ADL.
EDIT: Unless you just mean when Dynamis was relevant.

[Elexia]

It still is, no? Fast ability procs, best AoE killer for fast Odious farming, and great at killing ADL.
EDIT: Unless you just mean when Dynamis was relevant.

I'm still confused by this because a lot of what he mentioned never got nerfed. The only thing in relation to exp that got nerfed is the fact BSTs can no longer plop insanely powerful monsters ontop of exp parties (in comparison to what they're fighting) anymore. Like how BSTs loved to drop a "charged" bomb on garliage parties so when it aggros on the way back it immediately self-destructs due to having full TP.

Unless dynamis got changed again outside of the Rhapsodies key item...BST can still farm it just fine.

[Jile]

He means falcor went from th3 to th1 and overnight ppl stopped going BST to farm dynamis and loaded THF instead.

The Nerf meant BST that were getting 300 coins were suddenly getting 100 a run. It wasn't worth wasting a run to load BST and people loaded THF.

-----------

Grekumah or Camate:

If you have been reading this thread, can you please respond regarding if the dev team is going to fix the gross overkill they made with giving BST a 1-3 yalm radius from our pets head to use our ja's?

I could live with lower pet aoe dmg but after a decade playing BST, this update ruined the jobs playability. I recognize a small adjustment was needed in changing aoe-pet dmg but BST did not need the overkill nerf we received.

Thank you for your work communicating with the dev team for us!

[Ataraxia]

Let us all wait and be patience do not hit the unsubscribe button or quit FFXI yet.


Let's hope that the director Akihiko Matsui will reply to us soon. ;)

[detlef]

Let us all wait and be patience do not hit the unsubscribe button or quit FFXI yet.


Let's hope that the director Akihiro Matsui will reply to us soon.I believe it's Akihiko.

[Ataraxia]

I believe it's Akihiko.

all fix... =)

[Olor]

He means falcor went from th3 to th1 and overnight ppl stopped going BST to farm dynamis and loaded THF instead.


This. Again, my better geared BST became way worse than my poorly geared THF after that nerf.

Experience soloing - nerfing leave made leveling way more difficult for BST's... one or two people causing mischief should not have resulted in punishment for all BSTs

[Elexia]

This. Again, my better geared BST became way worse than my poorly geared THF after that nerf.

Experience soloing - nerfing leave made leveling way more difficult for BST's... one or two people causing mischief should not have resulted in punishment for all BSTs

So..outside of THF...which other job could get TH natively, let alone TH3 at the time? If that's the nerf, it actually made sense from a balance perspective. Sorry to break it to you, it wasn't "one or two" people making mischief, it was a huge problem in the early days in popular exp spots because BSTs wanted to clear the zone out so they could have it for themselves. I can promise you they wouldn't have made that change if it truly was "one or two people" and not a large problem. People wouldn't have complained if it was just one or two people doing it every now and then. You couldn't properly exp in Crawler's Nest or Garliage Citadel basement if there were 1 or 2 bsts there because you were GUARANTEED to get a higher level aggressive monster dumped on you.

Did you even play during those days?

[Jile]

The difference is.... Losing TH3 was not game breaking, they simply adjusted a pet to satisfy complaints. This Nerf; however, is game breaking and unnecessary. A multiplier adjustment like they did with rudras on aoe-pet moves would have left BST functional without destroying the fundamentals of how the job functions.

Community reps, please advise if the devs are reviewing this and when we can expect a fix. Thank you.

[kylani]

So..outside of THF...which other job could get TH natively, let alone TH3 at the time? If that's the nerf, it actually made sense from a balance perspective. Sorry to break it to you, it wasn't "one or two" people making mischief, it was a huge problem in the early days in popular exp spots because BSTs wanted to clear the zone out so they could have it for themselves. I can promise you they wouldn't have made that change if it truly was "one or two people" and not a large problem. People wouldn't have complained if it was just one or two people doing it every now and then. You couldn't properly exp in Crawler's Nest or Garliage Citadel basement if there were 1 or 2 bsts there because you were GUARANTEED to get a higher level aggressive monster dumped on you.

Did you even play during those days?

I played for 12 years, and that was NOT my experience. If some of the BST haters are to be believed, I think servers must be quite different.

I exp'd a lot in crawler's nest. There were so many places for BST to exp without being near parties that there was no need for contention there. Parties fought over camps like crazy though. I loved CN as BST, hated it as a partier because of other parties being such jerks competing for spots. As BST, I was asked to CLEAR trains quite often before the change. Usually, the cause of a train was not BST but parties who had an inexperienced puller who panicked or a THF decided to flee out of there for fun. I don't recall BSTs specifically doing this.

I do recall BSTs MPKing, mainly in response to people stealing their NMs at low health. I am sure some BSTs did it for fun just like some people just liked to train mobs on others for fun. I posted elsewhere about why a person who really wanted to exp as BST would NOT waste time competing with a party. It was stupid if you need mobs to charm, not to move to another area. Sure some BSTs were probably stupid, but I was in too many parties that were just as stupid about competing for a party spot. Party spots were a pain for everyone back then, less for BST than a full party. One of the reasons I loved BST. I could come and go as I pleased without drama.

I actually liked the MPK nerf because I no longer had to stop exping to go clear trains, and I could also charm a pet and despawn it so it would repop as an even match. I see nothing good about this change that doesn't let me command my pet when I'm right there fighting with it. I wonder how people would like it if they couldn't use their special abilities unless they standing within this range to a tank? Sure, melee could just run over to the tank and back. That would make their jobs much more fun! That's how I feel about this ridiculous range nerf.

[Alhanelem]

I exp'd a lot in crawler's nest. There were so many places for BST to exp without being near parties that there was no need for contention thereI think people just liked to blame BST when it wasn't always their fault. There were a lot of popular EXP camps in the crawler's nest back in the day. BST loved the place too because of all the charmable stuff in there. While BST were sometimes responsible for causing trains and wiping parties that were trying to test their limits, more often it was just a party wiping on its own and trying to avoid dying by running to the zone, which typically resulted in dozens of crawlers trained to the zone, causing anyone who entered the area to be KO'd instantly, especially if the train was from the knight crawler camps.

That being said, I did have BSTs that dumped mobs on my party on more than one occasion, sometimes causing a wipe. So, while it is usually as you said, I have seen it happen because of a BST. It was things like this that led to the possibly unfair animosity towards bst and the eventual removal of monster trains.

[kylani]

I think people just liked to blame BST when it wasn't always their fault. There were a lot of popular EXP camps in the crawler's nest back in the day. BST loved the place too because of all the charmable stuff in there. While BST were sometimes responsible for causing trains and wiping parties that were trying to test their limits, more often it was just a party wiping on its own and trying to avoid dying by running to the zone, which typically resulted in dozens of crawlers trained to the zone, causing anyone who entered the area to be KO'd instantly, especially if the train was from the knight crawler camps.

That being said, I did have BSTs that dumped mobs on my party on more than one occasion, sometimes causing a wipe. So, while it is usually as you said, I have seen it happen because of a BST. It was things like this that led to the possibly unfair animosity towards bst and the eventual removal of monster trains.

Thank you for being open minded. I'm not saying there weren't troublesome BSTs. I just don't feel like they were any worse than other jobs based on my experience.

The only reason I disliked the mpk nerf, as painful as trains could be, I used to like that when you partied near others you had to be more conscious of your surroundings, and people seemed to band together. I loved that feeling of camaraderie that you were all in the trenches together. As RDM and BLM, I really loved sleeping adds to try to help get things under control while folks pitched in to help. It was exciting in Khazam back in the good old days, lol.

I totally agree it was a good change though. It could be very frustrating to parties even with the best intentions of all around, and it was way too easy for troublemakers to grieve. The threat of jail or banning wasn't a big deterrent unfortunately, and it could be hard to tell the difference between a panicked person and an intentional griever.

[detlef]

Wait, does nobody remember the mountain of complaints about BSTs always taking 2 mobs at a time in Dynamis? Proc one, let pet finish it off while you work on the next one? People HATED that.

[bazookatooth]

Wait, does nobody remember the mountain of complaints about BSTs always taking 2 mobs at a time in Dynamis? Proc one, let pet finish it off while you work on the next one? People HATED that.

You know what could have solved ALLLLLL of these problems? Adding more monsters to the vast expanse of wasted space that is vanadiel. Instead they ruin one person's fun to give it to another person. Broken logic prevails again. YAY!

[detlef]

You know what could have solved ALLLLLL of these problems? Adding more monsters to the vast expanse of wasted space that is vanadiel. Instead they ruin one person's fun to give it to another person. Broken logic prevails again. YAY!Well there's no arguing with that. SE could easily have increased the number of available Dynamis mobs by strengthening the Easy Prey mobs or by adjusting mob placement or by making City/Northland zones more attractive or any one of a number of reasonable solutions. I'm just pointing out that people hated BSTs who would tie up 2 mobs in a competitive situation.

[bazookatooth]

Well there's no arguing with that. SE could easily have increased the number of available Dynamis mobs by strengthening the Easy Prey mobs or by adjusting mob placement or by making City/Northland zones more attractive or any one of a number of reasonable solutions. I'm just pointing out that people hated BSTs who would tie up 2 mobs in a competitive situation.

The funny part was when they'd actually give up and leave the camps that BST were at and then find some PLD or THF and a BRD mule aeolean edging 20 mobs at a time in some dark corner of the map and they wouldn't complain at all about it. People haz teh dumbz some times.

[Olor]

Wait, does nobody remember the mountain of complaints about BSTs always taking 2 mobs at a time in Dynamis? Proc one, let pet finish it off while you work on the next one? People HATED that.

Sorry who doesn't work on more than one mob at a time in dynamis? It's not even like people do it on purpose - the things link.

[Allestra]

Slippery slope nerfing the bst (or any job imo) considering we will be paying for possibly NO new content after November......se you may want to resist the urge to nerf and turn off players too much.

I think the range change is horrible ,tacky and just petty.

imho its time to lighten up, open up, finally relaxxxxx and offer as much enjoyment to keep people paying for the ability to replay content only , not the opposite.

O.o

[detlef]

The funny part was when they'd actually give up and leave the camps that BST were at and then find some PLD or THF and a BRD mule aeolean edging 20 mobs at a time in some dark corner of the map and they wouldn't complain at all about it. People haz teh dumbz some times.The thing about AEing was that if you were doing WS procs you then weren't competing with other farmers during JA time so there wasn't really any harm done here. And that was nerfed pretty quickly I believe.


Sorry who doesn't work on more than one mob at a time in dynamis? It's not even like people do it on purpose - the things link.My statement was more about how Dynamis used to be. It's one thing to be working on one mob while the others are yellow and only have initial aggro hate. But it's another thing for your pet to be whittling down a proc'd mob while you were trying to proc the next mob. It's just an example of how Dynamis was before SE reduced Mythic difficulty, back when a lot of Relics were still desirable.

[bazookatooth]

The thing about AEing was that if you were doing WS procs you then weren't competing with other farmers during JA time so there wasn't really any harm done here.

That's the thing though. It wasn't like BST was making too much currency or killing too many things. It was just that they were killing the things that other people wanted to kill. So instead of asking for more things to kill, people asked for the devs to mess with bst. It's that hater mentality and SE loves to reward it.

[detlef]

But SE did nerf AoE WS really quickly, so they clearly weren't okay with that. When you look at it, it's probably just a case where SE had some idea of how much currency they wanted generated and felt that the adjustments I mentioned in my previous post would deviate too greatly from that. So they basically made it harder for everybody. Typical SE yes, but I don't think there was any kind of agenda against BST specifically.

[Olor]

Instead of asking for more things to kill, people asked for the devs to mess with bst. It's that hater mentality and SE loves to reward it.

This. Happens every time. Not sure why people hate BST but every time the job isn't completely useless people lose their minds.

[bazookatooth]

But SE did nerf AoE WS really quickly, so they clearly weren't okay with that. When you look at it, it's probably just a case where SE had some idea of how much currency they wanted generated and felt that the adjustments I mentioned in my previous post would deviate too greatly from that. So they basically made it harder for everybody. Typical SE yes, but I don't think there was any kind of agenda against BST specifically.

I don't think it was an agenda against BST either. I think they just have a tendency to yield to the demands of the worst of the community but almost always do so in a way that generally leaves no one happy about the outcome. It's hard to say if this is intentional or not, but it is infuriating at times.

[Olor]

Again would like some info from devs about whether they will rethink this "adjustment"

[Elexia]

That's the thing though. It wasn't like BST was making too much currency or killing too many things. It was just that they were killing the things that other people wanted to kill. So instead of asking for more things to kill, people asked for the devs to mess with bst. It's that hater mentality and SE loves to reward it.

(Btw, there's actually copies of enemies, but some of them are higher level, which the BST coulda went after (you know being a technical duo compared to soloers.)) The problem is, people largely ignored the higher level versions because it was less efficient, so even if SE added more enemies, people would still ignore them unless they were lower level. At this point in XI's progression, it would be "Apex" style enemies additions due to the fact the zones memory is already allocated to what exists, so they'd have to add "new" ones.

Also, they nerfed AoE WS because of the insane rate of procing White "!".


This. Happens every time. Not sure why people hate BST but every time the job isn't completely useless people lose their minds.

"BST PARTY ONLY PLEASE" < Once again this is what brought the attention. Less salt more realization. Look at SE's answer to Manaburns (Post 2005 updates and ToAU content.) So it has nothing to do with people losing their minds that a job "got useful" because people loved taking BLUs when they finally go adjustments to not be useless - but you don't see/didn't see BLU party only! for relevant content at the time.

[Olor]

"BST PARTY ONLY PLEASE" < Once again this is what brought the attention.

If this happened, I never saw it. At the very least BST parties were bringing in CORs/GEOs - often PLD too

And frankly - BST ONLY WORKS WITH CERTAIN SETUPS. It's not our fault that a buff for BST is WASTED for pretty much EVERY OTHER JOB. If I had my way our pets would not need special rolls - our pets would benefit from all AOE buffs. That's not how it works. Which means its not BST's fault if when BSTs party the ONLY WAY IT WORKS is to have other pet jobs. Otherwise either the BST is pointless and unbuffed or the other jobs are.

Punishing BST for a design decision made by the devs - attacking BST because of said job decision - is just pointlessly mean to people who enjoy the job

[bazookatooth]

(Btw, there's actually copies of enemies, but some of them are higher level, which the BST coulda went after (you know being a technical duo compared to soloers.)) The problem is, people largely ignored the higher level versions because it was less efficient, so even if SE added more enemies, people would still ignore them unless they were lower level. At this point in XI's progression, it would be "Apex" style enemies additions due to the fact the zones memory is already allocated to what exists, so they'd have to add "new" ones.

I never farmed dynamis on BST (it was never the best way imo) and I never farmed the lower level mobs (the mob levels / placement have been on the wikis since day 1 btw). I'm still failing to see any reason why they couldn't just add more mobs. It's not like they haven't added hundreds of new mobs to all sorts of old areas for no apparent reason over the last couple of years.




"BST PARTY ONLY PLEASE" < Once again this is what brought the attention. Less salt more realization. Look at SE's answer to Manaburns (Post 2005 updates and ToAU content.) So it has nothing to do with people losing their minds that a job "got useful" because people loved taking BLUs when they finally go adjustments to not be useless - but you don't see/didn't see BLU party only! for relevant content at the time.

A couple points. Manaburns were still alive and kicking as far as exp parties go all through ToAU. They just weren't at colibri camps. Sorry you missed them. Endgame content still used nuking just as much as far as I know.

And BST shouts... they weren't as popular as you make it seem. Most shouts are for PLD, GEO and WHM. Also, as was already explained, SE could have fixed the "BST only" thing by fixing the buff system. SE made this happen. Not the players and not BST. It's true of most pet set ups. "BST only" is a necessity* due to the nature of party buffs..... well, that and stupidity. We always bring other jobs and just have the cor do separate rolls for them (They last 7 minutes after all) but a lot of people still don't seem to understand that and would rather bring a lazy cor who rolls once every 7 minutes and takes a nap than bring a bst and a blu to the same event.

[Arthos]

It's true of most pet set ups. "BST only" is a necessity* due to the nature of party buffs..... well, that and stupidity. We always bring other jobs and just have the cor do separate rolls for them (They last 7 minutes after all) but a lot of people still don't seem to understand that and would rather bring a lazy cor who rolls once every 7 minutes and takes a nap than bring a bst and a blu to the same event.

This "just have the cor do separate rolls for them" is the theory. I agree, if you always go with the same people it's less worse, but still very suboptimal. But everyone feel free to try.
Personally I think a buffing phase shouldn't take several minutes each fight. There are also general buffs, which needs everyone standing together.
If you fight a mob with AoE dispel, things get really interesting. "Just" reapply buffs? Oh well...
Besides that Cor is not only a buff job, it's a hybrid, and some may still enjoy shooting on things, which requires rolls on their own aswell.

All in all i would leave it under the phrase "Not recommended". If you look a bit at efficiency, you don't mix bst with melee, if you don't have to deal with adds.

[bazookatooth]

This "just have the cor do separate rolls for them" is the theory. I agree, if you always go with the same people it's less worse, but still very suboptimal. But everyone feel free to try.
Personally I think a buffing phase shouldn't take several minutes each fight. There are also general buffs, which needs everyone standing together.
If you fight a mob with AoE dispel, things get really interesting. "Just" reapply buffs? Oh well...
Besides that Cor is not only a buff job, it's a hybrid, and some may still enjoy shooting on things, which requires rolls on their own aswell.

All in all i would leave it under the phrase "Not recommended". If you look a bit at efficiency, you don't mix bst with melee, if you don't have to deal with adds.

In reality, the PLD is probably getting ACC and the cor is probably going to do an attack roll on himself. Maybe it's annoying telling people where to stand...

[Arthos]

Annoying is the right word.

But let's create an example: Sinister Reign, setup PLD/WHM/BLU/BST/COR/GEO

1. Entering, WHM buffs, meanwhile Cor could do either melee buffs or Bst rolls on everyone.

Now it splits:
1.a) You seperate the Bst or Blu to get him his specific rolls. This can easily take another 2min.

1.b) You engage already, because you want to give the remaining melee or bst rolls while fighting. Problems: Positioning, Pld and mages are ok, but Bst and Blu will be very close together, at the safe DD side, mostly behind the mob. An experienced Cor will make it, but changes are good that u overwrite a Roll you don't want to. This is one of the tactical issues SE left us with the adjustment. BST is in a tactical area now, where he shouldn't be.
However, one of your DD's can easily be without or half buffed during first fight.

2. I know it's possible to clear it in under 7 minutes, but let's assume we did not for some reason, so we loose rolls on 3. fight, which is mostly the hardest. And in the hectic of running in and out to avoid Arcieala's Naakuals you have to hit a single player with an AoE roll, without applying it to anyone else. If you hit the other DD it can get critical, if you overwrite your mages refresh they can run out of mana.
PLD i dont count in this battle, he will be mostly ok here without defensive rolls.
And again: One of your DD's will be unbuffed half of the time.

Conclusion: Possible: yes.
Smooth/effecient/safe: hell, no.

[bazookatooth]

Annoying is the right word.

But let's create an example: Sinister Reign, setup PLD/WHM/BLU/BST/COR/GEO

1. Entering, WHM buffs, meanwhile Cor could do either melee buffs or Bst rolls on everyone.

Now it splits:
1.a) You seperate the Bst or Blu to get him his specific rolls. This can easily take another 2min.

1.b) You engage already, because you want to give the remaining melee or bst rolls while fighting. Problems: Positioning, Pld and mages are ok, but Bst and Blu will be very close together, at the safe DD side, mostly behind the mob. An experienced Cor will make it, but changes are good that u overwrite a Roll you don't want to. This is one of the tactical issues SE left us with the adjustment. BST is in a tactical area now, where he shouldn't be.
However, one of your DD's can easily be without or half buffed during first fight.

2. I know it's possible to clear it in under 7 minutes, but let's assume we did not for some reason, so we loose rolls on 3. fight, which is mostly the hardest. And in the hectic of running in and out to avoid Arcieala's Naakuals you have to hit a single player with an AoE roll, without applying it to anyone else. If you hit the other DD it can get critical, if you overwrite your mages refresh they can run out of mana.
PLD i dont count in this battle, he will be mostly ok here without defensive rolls.
And again: One of your DD's will be unbuffed half of the time.

Conclusion: Possible: yes.
Smooth/effecient/safe: hell, no.
You are vastly overstating the difficulty of sinister reign. I've done close to 300 runs now using mana burn, BST and melee set ups and I've only lost twice. Both due to being unlucky with the sharks placement in the middle of the ring. Almost every other battle in current end game is won or lost in less that the time it takes one roll to wear and rolls can be applied before the fight even starts in most cases.

[Arthos]

This is not about the difficulty of Sinister Reign. It's about the question if a melee/Bst mix can be buffed well by a Cor or not.

[BlackHalo714]

Ah my first post ever since playing ffxi. I have been a long time beastmaster since the old charming days. No one cared about beastmaster until we were given the capability to measure up against other DD jobs. I give credit to the Dev team for all the recent quality of life changes. But I have to say this distance nerf was made out of haste and not properly thought through.. It doesn't really create "more" of a challenge just "more" of annoyance. This was posted in the Freshly Picked Vana'diel 21 Digest.- Beastmaster
The range in which certain abilities and pet commands can be used has been shortened. While this changes the style of play a bit, please try it out and let us know your feedback.

So maybe they are looking into this and seeing if the distance nerf was too extreme? Hopefully they will respond with some type of answer whether it is good or bad.

[Jile]

Ah my first post ever since playing ffxi. I have been a long time beastmaster since the old charming days. No one cared about beastmaster until we were given the capability to measure up against other DD jobs. I give credit to the Dev team for all the recent quality of life changes. But I have to say this distance nerf was made out of haste and not properly thought through.. It doesn't really create "more" of a challenge just "more" of annoyance. This was posted in the Freshly Picked Vana'diel 21 Digest.- Beastmaster
The range in which certain abilities and pet commands can be used has been shortened. While this changes the style of play a bit, please try it out and let us know your feedback.

So maybe they are looking into this and seeing if the distance nerf was too extreme? Hopefully they will respond with some type of answer whether it is good or bad.

Agreed. SE needs to undo the distance nerf, it ruins the playstyle of the job and is functionally flawed. It might have sounded good to them on the drawing board but its horrible now that its applied.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Agreed. SE needs to undo the distance nerf, it ruins the playstyle of the job and is functionally flawed. It might have sounded good to them on the drawing board but its horrible now that its applied.

Or at least reduce it, I don't see why if they wanted this they didn't allow beast to have the option to be away from most but not all AoE.

Having to stand on top of your pet, and still struggle with not being in range with certain enemies is ridiculous.

[bazookatooth]

This is not about the difficulty of Sinister Reign. It's about the question if a melee/Bst mix can be buffed well by a Cor or not.

No, we're talking about how people wanted BST nerfed because people like you wouldn't bring other jobs to sinister reign based on the fear that the COR might have to <GASP> do rolls. And I'm pointing out that SR is easy content that can be done with any decent set up and shouldn't be taken so seriously as to not invite a certain job or only invite a certain job.

[Fynlar]

Easy maybe for the experienced, or well established cookie cutter setups... I've experienced loads of pain every time I tried to run it, though. Not everyone is at that high of a level, and for those that aren't they are going to be more inclined to stick with what they know can work.

[Malthar]

A better fix would be to vary pet damage with master distance.

[Arthos]

A better fix would be to vary pet damage with master distance.

This and applying melee rolls also on pet is a good solution. Bsts who want, could also engage this way. And it would solve that "Bst only" issue.

[Zeargi]

A better fix would be to vary pet damage with master distance.

The RNG's 'Sweet Spot' would work well.

<pet>'s confidence is bolstered! (Player is at the best range)
<pet> tries to focus (Is Medium range)
<pet> feels wary (Player is Maximum distance from Pet.)