View Full Version : [dev1289] Job Adjustments
This. Happens every time. Not sure why people hate BST but every time the job isn't completely useless people lose their minds.
I doubt if anyone hates Beast Masters. I sure don't.
We are just being honest and recognizing they were too powerful. That's not the same as hate.
bazookatooth
10-05-2015, 12:23 AM
I doubt if anyone hates Beast Masters. I sure don't.
We are just being honest and recognizing they were too powerful. That's not the same as hate.
SAM has been OP for like 10 years and "Nerf SAM" threads have never gotten traction. SAM still outdamages BST and people are still complaining that bst damage is too high. It's weird.
I doubt if anyone hates Beast Masters. I sure don't.
We are just being honest and recognizing they were too powerful. That's not the same as hate.
The problem is. The nerf did not address the damage of the jugs, it ruined the functionality of the job and the versatility we've had since the beginning - the nerf doesn't even function correctly, the range the ja's work is variable and small.
SE community reps - if the dev's are looking into a more effective "adjustment" rather than this hateful nerf, please let us know.
SAM has been OP for like 10 years and "Nerf SAM" threads have never gotten traction. SAM still outdamages BST and people are still complaining that bst damage is too high. It's weird.
Samurais didn't have nearly the survivability of a Beast Master - who could stand safely out of harm's way while letting their super pet both tank and do damage. So it's not really an accurate comparison.
No one is saying Beast Masters were over-powered solely because of their damage. It was the fact they had such great damage combined with such great survivability. That was what made them too powerful.
The problem is. The nerf did not address the damage of the jugs, it ruined the functionality of the job and the versatility we've had since the beginning - the nerf doesn't even function correctly, the range the ja's work is variable and small.
SE community reps - if the dev's are looking into a more effective "adjustment" rather than this hateful nerf, please let us know.
I don't believe the nerf was meant to address the damage of jugs. It was meant to force Beast Masters into the range of area attacks - making them vulnerable and reducing their survivability.
Rather it ruined the functionality of the job or not I cannot say as I do not play a Beast Master. I've already conceded the current range could be too small - and indeed from the sound of it does seem too small.
My only point is that the job was too powerful and some changes did need to happen. That's not hating on Beast Masters. It's just being honest. Rather or not this was the correct way to go about changing the job I'll leave to others.
Beast Masters are taking this too personal.
The only reason BST was looked at was because people shouted for BST in special circumstances.
BST are not too powerful, we are just as squishy as we've always been and our gear does not allow us to be effective at the same time our pets are. Either our def/atk/acc is decent or our pets are, not both at the same time.
A few select pet aoe moves might be deemed that though and could have used a small adjustment to change shouts. This Nerf made BST undesirable in all relevant content.
To add insult to injury the Nerf doesn't function consistently.
SE community reps, any response from the devs?
Note: Hate typing on my cellphone, I end up editing after initial posts.
The only reason BST was looked at was because people shouted for BST in special circumstances.
BST are not too powerful, a few select pet aoe moves might be and could have used a small adjustment to change shouts. This Nerf made BST undesirable in all relevant content.
To add insult to injury the Nerf doesn't function consistently.
SE community reps, any response from the devs?
Almost every melee DD in the game I knew was re-rolling a Beast Master or at least starting to consider it. There was a reason for that. The Beast Master population was not starting to grow by leaps and bounds because the job was mediocre. The job's population was spiking because it was too powerful.
And who could blame them? Why play another melee DD job when you can roll a Beast Master and do great damage while being able to tank some of the strongest notorious monsters in the game all while standing back and avoiding damage yourself?
It's hard not to be tempted by that kind of OPness.
Sorry, evidently I edited while you were posting. I clarified my point.
bazookatooth
10-06-2015, 02:49 AM
Samurais didn't have nearly the survivability of a Beast Master - who could stand safely out of harm's way while letting their super pet both tank and do damage. So it's not really an accurate comparison.
No one is saying Beast Masters were over-powered solely because of their damage. It was the fact they had such great damage combined with such great survivability. That was what made them too powerful.
A lot of people are complaining that BST does too much damage and they shouldn't. It isn't nearly the strongest job in that regard. It is the best at surviving large damage spikes. But that isn't what people are complaining about. And oddly enough, SAM, MONK, DRK and WAR could just eat damage and have a WHM mule cure through it for years without a nerf. Or RNG could just sit there and shoot. So BST being able to do it through pet food shouldn't shock or offend anyone.
That's part of the problem we have now. The reason people are using BST so much is because half the people playing now don't have DT- sets or know what any of the defensive spells do, so they just bring bst to any event that they can't plow through by spamming Fudo or Rudra's. That's how long those other jobs have been OP DD tanks. People completely forgot that they aren't supposed to be tanks. They don't know anything but zerg now. And the sad thing is that nerfing BST isn't going to bring the zerg back. It just pissed off BSTs. Players have weak defense and low HP and changing BST did nothing to fix that. These people who cried about BST still won't be able to get in groups on SAM, MNK etc. because they cried to nerf BST when they should have cried for more HP / defense and less cheap AOE mechanics.
The affects are already evident. Now instead of seeing people shouting for bst, they shout for SCH and people still aren't engaging these high tier monsters because they have cheap crappy AOE mechanics. Given that this is close to the final update, I guess SE just wants us to RNG or SCH burn everything for the duration of the game's life.
Alhanelem
10-06-2015, 02:56 AM
It's hard not to be tempted by that kind of OPness. All pet jobs have been able to do what you described, so why single out BST? Why BUFF summoner's range? If they can do that, obviously range isn't what makes BST OP, because summoner has been tanking / kiting NMs since it first existed and nobody cried about OP that was.
They should have just made whatever pet that was OP less OP and left everything else alone. Fundamentally enforcing SE's idea of BST's playstyle without really addressing anything makes no sense.
They should have just made whatever pet that was OP less OP and left everything else alone. Fundamentally enforcing SE's idea of BST's playstyle without really addressing anything makes no sense.
Exactly. Why change the fundamental functionally of the job when all that was needed was a small adjustment on just the pet aoe dmg.
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I don't want to see SCH or BLM nerfed but it should be obvious by now that if the numbers BST can get under optimal conditions are nerf-worthy, the much higher numbers SCH and BLM pull are coming next. I hope people are just as calloused when that happens.
Alhanelem
10-06-2015, 03:44 AM
Well it just continues to illustrate SE's penchant for fixing a balancing crack in the wall by swinging a sledgehammer at it and missing the crack entirely, making a separate hole in the wall.
Concise analogy.
Again, SE community reps, can you respond if the devs are going to review and repair this?
A lot of people are complaining that BST does too much damage and they shouldn't. It isn't nearly the strongest job in that regard. It is the best at surviving large damage spikes. But that isn't what people are complaining about. And oddly enough, SAM, MONK, DRK and WAR could just eat damage and have a WHM mule cure through it for years without a nerf. Or RNG could just sit there and shoot. So BST being able to do it through pet food shouldn't shock or offend anyone.
That's part of the problem we have now. The reason people are using BST so much is because half the people playing now don't have DT- sets or know what any of the defensive spells do, so they just bring bst to any event that they can't plow through by spamming Fudo or Rudra's. That's how long those other jobs have been OP DD tanks. People completely forgot that they aren't supposed to be tanks. They don't know anything but zerg now. And the sad thing is that nerfing BST isn't going to bring the zerg back. It just pissed off BSTs. Players have weak defense and low HP and changing BST did nothing to fix that. These people who cried about BST still won't be able to get in groups on SAM, MNK etc. because they cried to nerf BST when they should have cried for more HP / defense and less cheap AOE mechanics.
The affects are already evident. Now instead of seeing people shouting for bst, they shout for SCH and people still aren't engaging these high tier monsters because they have cheap crappy AOE mechanics. Given that this is close to the final update, I guess SE just wants us to RNG or SCH burn everything for the duration of the game's life.
I understand what you are saying. But t I have seen Beast Master pets out-survive my Paladin in full - damage sets while doing probably 100 times more damage than I would ever be capable of.
So it's just not realistic to imply all a Samurai would have to do is slap on a -DT set and he would instantly have the survivability that a Beast Master does.. I just don't see that happening. This isn't even to mention that equipping a full -DT set would significantly lower the damage output of the Melee DD anyway.
I personally don't mind so much the damage of the Beast Master. It's very high - perhaps overpowered - but I wouldn't be inclined to call for a nerf. It's only when you take into account this kind of damage combined with so much survivability that I believe it rises to level of needing to be nerfed. So take my comments in that context.
I agree with you about cheap crappy AOE mechanics. That's been a failing of this game since the beginning - and is probably one of the big reasons it never reached the pinnacle of MMO success that I believe this game could have.
All pet jobs have been able to do what you described, so why single out BST?
No they haven't Alhanelem.
Try tanking a high-tier Avatar or some other powerful notorious monster with a dragoon pet and see how far it gets you.
Sure: it might can stay alive - but if you even sneeze on the boss it's going to lose threat and come after you.
No other Pet Job I have see comes even close to what Beast Master is capable of in terms of damage and raw tanking ability. It's not even a contest. Those special pets they have rip hate even off my Paladin. They are enmity machines - not to mention they are hard to kill and do crazy damage to boot.
I understand what you are saying. But t I have seen Beast Master pets out-survive my Paladin in full - damage sets while doing probably 100 times more damage than I would ever be capable of.
So it's just not realistic to imply all a Samurai would have to do is slap on a -DT set and he would instantly have the survivability that a Beast Master does.. I just don't see that happening. This isn't even to mention that equipping a full -DT set would significantly lower the damage output of the Melee DD anyway.
I personally don't mind so much the damage of the Beast Master. It's very high - perhaps overpowered - but I wouldn't be inclined to call for a nerf. It's only when you take into account this kind of damage combined is with so much survivability that I believe it rises to level of needing to be nerfed. So take my comments in that context.
I agree with you about cheap crappy AOE mechanics. That's been a failing of this game since the beginning - and is probably one of the big reasons it never reached the pinnacle of MMO success that I believe this game could have.
BST do not gear for themselves because that's not how SE designed our gear. Unless we want jugs that can't hit, can't hit and do damage, can't take a hit, we have to take ourselves out of the picture completely.
Pet can hit, do decent dmg, take a hit.
Or.
We can hit, can do ok dmg, can take a hit.
Both do not occur at the same time on relevant content.
That is how SE designed BST.
I appreciate that any job capable of burst dmg will take attention of the community and devs. They didn't need to castrate BST in the process of balance.
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All I'm asking SE to do is undo the distance Nerf, in exchange for an aoe-pet tp move dmg decrease.
I'm not excited to lose dmg but I'd much prefer a reasonable nerf on pet aoe dmg than giving up on the one job out of 22 lvl99's I love, being removed from relevant content.
bazookatooth
10-06-2015, 07:05 AM
I understand what you are saying. But t I have seen Beast Master pets out-survive my Paladin in full - damage sets while doing probably 100 times more damage than I would ever be capable of.
I have capped emnity gifts and +pet emnity gear in just about every action I do on BST, capped JP and pretty much every desirable piece of gear there is for bst with the exception of Aymur, which I am working on currently. The PLDs in my shell still hold hate about as well as you could hope. PLD isn't supposed to be able to hold hate permanently. Eventually DDs should be able to rip it off if they go all out. Especially if they are fully buffed on some low/mid level content. That's just how the game is designed. I could sneak attack -> rudras a mob at the start of the fight on thf and I guarantee that you won't get hate back until I die if I don't want you to. As for surviving, a good PLD has close to 3k HP in escha. You shouldn't be dieing unless your whm is failing to heal you. Anything that hits you that hard is going to eat through a pet just as fast and they can only be healed every 52 seconds. PLD should be rocking about the same amount of DT- as a bst pet with shell/pro and gear etc. possibly more. Higher HP is the only thing a pet has over PLD.
They could chaqnge the HP of pets and reward timer to be more similar to how a real player gets healed, or they could raise player HP / defense to be more like pets. They probably should have just done a little of both.
So it's just not realistic to imply all a Samurai would have to do is slap on a -DT set and he would instantly have the survivability that a Beast Master does.. I just don't see that happening. This isn't even to mention that equipping a full -DT set would significantly lower the damage output of the Melee DD anyway.
No, they couldn't. They need to use defensive buffs and gear. The buffs are the part that people always forget. They want to just roll with all haste and attack and zerg. Why should a SAM be able to survive like a pet does anyways? Shouldn't there be some downside to pumping out infinite light/dark skillchains?
No they haven't Alhanelem.
Try tanking a high-tier Avatar or some other powerful notorious monster with a dragoon pet and see how far it gets you.
Sure: it might can stay alive - but if you even sneeze on the boss it's going to lose threat and come after you.
No other Pet Job I have see comes even close to what Beast Master is capable of in terms of damage and raw tanking ability. It's not even a contest. Those special pets they have rip hate even off my Paladin. They are enmity machines - not to mention they are hard to kill and do crazy damage to boot.
A BST with capped JP has at minimal +15 emnity before gear which in my case adds like another 15~ish. You'd be hard pressed to find a DD job that wouldn't pull hate eventually in that much +emnity gear.
Alhanelem
10-06-2015, 08:43 AM
No they haven't Alhanelem.
Try tanking a high-tier Avatar or some other powerful notorious monster with a dragoon pet and see how far it gets you.
Sure: it might can stay alive - but if you even sneeze on the boss it's going to lose threat and come after you.
No other Pet Job I have see comes even close to what Beast Master is capable of in terms of damage and raw tanking ability. It's not even a contest. Those special pets they have rip hate even off my Paladin. They are enmity machines - not to mention they are hard to kill and do crazy damage to boot.I'm speaking in general terms about content across the entirety of the game over the years, not just what people do this very moment. Also, the valoredge puppet properly configured can actually tank a lot of stuff (having 100 or 1200 JP makes it really effective as well). BST might be the best at it, but the other pet jobs have kited or tanked all kinds of NMs and content throughout FFXI's history. Have you never heard of summoner burns? When WoE was new (and pretty much even to this day), many of the first clears were all or mostly summoners throwing pets at it- Although summons won't survive as long as BST pets, they also can be resummoned quickly and immediately. I've pet tanked a variety of NMs over the years on SMN. It's not a new concept and it's not exclusive to BST.
Enmity can be managed on the other pet jobs, so I'm not even considering that a factor in this.
Carby kiting - gogo! Oh Wait, it's OP cause the SMN didn't hit... >.>
/end sarcasm
Nobody had my SMN nerffed when I literally sat and let my avatars kill nm's in abyssea while i ate my dinner or chatted on vent either.
As brought up earlier, the zerg-only attitude people mad their respective dd wasn't asked for because they pull too much hate and die ten seconds into a fight and our pets don't have multi-minute weakness on ko is why we're here.
Minor BST adjustment was needed.... That's not what we got.
Kaory
10-06-2015, 12:00 PM
I hate the fact that i use to play BST a ton in the old 75 days of no invites, solo only, charm and 2 hr, etc. and no one cared. Could we kill NMs solo, oh yeah. Was it a challenge most of the time, yep. Again, no one cared. fastforward, today a good BST has spent millions on stones, days on capacity farming, and years of disregard to finally be "sought for" to get hijacked by complainers now. I spent far too much time, gil, etc on this job to see it get jacked up. Yes, i can still use it, but I have to get screwed by dumb mechanics because gimped players ran to the job. Let us not forget, there are only a few ways to buff and heal pets. A dd gets far more, so yes being in aoe range is annoying but makes sense. Also, charm can ruin us if timers are down. We already have to deal with all enfeebles on our pets too. Meanwhile, sch can sit back and kill a mob from safe distance with sc mb solo. Add a blm and mobs melt. Smn always could do from a distance, and with conduit can melt mobs too. If we have to keep a distance nerf, give us PUP distance at least. It is a fair distance of danger to safe ratios with the ability to reward from a safe distance. Many will still complain, but it is better than standing next to my pet and still getting too far messages. Useless players wont know how to play from PUP distance either and veterans should have no trouble with that distance. Otherwise, give us what we had in Aug and fix the real problems of balance: too much mob aoe, too little hp for players, acc/att increases, etc. I dont want easy mode, but when my shellmates can just mb for 99999 every min or less, not much is challenge mode anyway. Why fundamentally change one job when many jobs are OP and others havent seen the real light of day in years.
Singforu
10-06-2015, 06:41 PM
All you complainers about how BST has to get close... here you go of a BST soloing very difficult ark angel mithra:
There are more if this one example isn't enough. The distance nerf wasn't enough. Pets shouldn't be able to not only tank as well as a PLD but do damage as well as a DD against very difficult NMs while the master just sits there doing job emotes laughing all the way. Pets should be able to tank OR do damage, not both. That is what needs to be fixed.
Arthos
10-06-2015, 09:15 PM
All you complainers about how BST has to get close... here you go of a BST soloing very difficult ark angel mithra:
Range is not needed for most Ark Angels, so they are not affected by the nerf. About the VD: Respect. You should have linked his AA Galka vid, where you acutally can see that he is a very skilled player, playing well timed and fast. Fun to watch.
Fynlar
10-06-2015, 09:22 PM
Wow, the distance nerf wasn't enough to make an enemy with only one threatening, Utsusemi-blockable AoE unsoloable by BST/NIN, wow.
I said wow twice to properly convey my shock.
Arthos
10-06-2015, 11:27 PM
Pets should be able to tank OR do damage, not both. That is what needs to be fixed.
There are several jobs which can do both, which makes them able to solo even hardest NMs. Bst is by far not alone there. All of them are already balanced, Bst is too.
I understand you don't like Bst, it makes your Brd unwanted, which is not ok.
But that Bst only hype is caused by the player community, not by the job itsself. It became good, yes. But not so OP as people think it is.
The real performance gap you find in gear and jobpoints and if player using different equipsets.
SE knows this, that's why they were a bit shy and did not nerf dmg output.
bazookatooth
10-07-2015, 12:02 AM
There's also a video of scholar soloing that fight. Maybe scholar needs to be in melee range with a damage reduction too. There are also several videos of other jobs soloing that fight at lower difficulties. What difficulty does it have to be before we cry nerf? Should we nerf NIN and DNC and BLU and SMN too? /smh
Mithlas
10-07-2015, 12:11 AM
Otherwise, give us what we had in Aug and fix the real problems of balance: too much mob aoe, too little hp for players, acc/att increases, etc
THIS. All this.
Arthos
10-07-2015, 01:14 AM
@ Mod
Why delete posts? There was nothing wrong with them. Even Singforu brought more his arguments to the table this time than provoking.
No aggression at all, so why you deleted several posts?
Edit: Nvm, they are back now, without the link. Thx
bazookatooth
10-07-2015, 03:35 AM
@ Mod
Why delete posts? There was nothing wrong with them. Even Singforu brought more his arguments to the table this time than provoking.
No aggression at all, so why you deleted several posts?
Apparently posting youtube videos could expose someone's personal information somehow. At least that's what I was told when I posted videos of summoner and scholar soloing all the delves, AA fights and a bunch of escha NMs. Perhaps they are afraid that a person could be harassed via their youtube account or perhaps they don;t want other people being unwittingly drawn into the discussion.
Ataraxia
10-07-2015, 07:21 AM
Apparently posting youtube videos could expose someone's personal information somehow. At least that's what I was told when I posted videos of summoner and scholar soloing all the delves, AA fights and a bunch of escha NMs. Perhaps they are afraid that a person could be harassed via their youtube account or perhaps they don;t want other people being unwittingly drawn into the discussion.
People who make video in youtube are people who actually wanna be famous. I don't see anything that would expose someone personal information. If people are so bother by it than they shouldn't make a youtube account and video in the first place.
The Dev Team also posted some youtube video which is nothing wrong with that all. What you did is a good thing to post videos of summoner and scholar soloing all the delves so it can bring attention to Mr. Akihiko Matusi so he can stop nerfing job and look for more better resolution.
Arthos
10-07-2015, 07:05 PM
I wonder why noone mentions RDM when it comes to D/VD solo fights. But it doesn't matter because i think it's proven that other jobs can solo the same difficulty, probably even more and better than BST.
It's not a problem anyway, most relevant content can't be solo'd, it needs 3 Person in party to start it. Soloing is more a way to test the own skills than getting drops.
Elexia
10-08-2015, 12:56 AM
I wonder why noone mentions RDM when it comes to D/VD solo fights. But it doesn't matter because i think it's proven that other jobs can solo the same difficulty, probably even more and better than BST.
It's not a problem anyway, most relevant content can't be solo'd, it needs 3 Person in party to start it. Soloing is more a way to test the own skills than getting drops.
RDM has been a soloer since the early days, but it was designed to be versatile..and it actually needed adjustments to be caught up. RDM is powerful but you didn't see a mass shift towards RDM like you did BST for a specific reason. It's not better what BST were doing, nowhere near - you even need more as RDM to do what a 'typical' BST could do. As said, it's not a problem that BST got powerful..it's the circumstances around it that drew attention. They wouldn't have developed the magic resistance patch (every real mage from back in the day knows this well) or develop ToAU around the brunt of the content being less mage friendly progression wise (i.e leveling wise.)
(It needs x people to start it!)
Anyone who's been playing XI for any length of time knows people run additional characters themselves to start content, whether you should or not. So the whole solo thing isn't a problem, people wouldn't be going to BST or wanting BST parties only for stuff if things were "fine" you know?
As much as people are trying to drag Samurai into this, outta saltiness:
The initial 2 handed patch allowed Samurais to deal insane damage while naked. Guess how fast they reverted that patch even though it only affected SE's lovechild?
bazookatooth
10-08-2015, 01:23 AM
RDM has been a soloer since the early days, but it was designed to be versatile..and it actually needed adjustments to be caught up. RDM is powerful but you didn't see a mass shift towards RDM like you did BST for a specific reason. It's not better what BST were doing, nowhere near - you even need more as RDM to do what a 'typical' BST could do. As said, it's not a problem that BST got powerful..it's the circumstances around it that drew attention. They wouldn't have developed the magic resistance patch (every real mage from back in the day knows this well) or develop ToAU around the brunt of the content being less mage friendly progression wise (i.e leveling wise.)
(It needs x people to start it!)
Anyone who's been playing XI for any length of time knows people run additional characters themselves to start content, whether you should or not. So the whole solo thing isn't a problem, people wouldn't be going to BST or wanting BST parties only for stuff if things were "fine" you know?
As much as people are trying to drag Samurai into this, outta saltiness:
The initial 2 handed patch allowed Samurais to deal insane damage while naked. Guess how fast they reverted that patch even though it only affected SE's lovechild?
Ermm... Sam still does crazy damage via skill chains. And I played BLM throughout ToaU without a problem. What did I have to change jobs for? Salvage and...
A BST with capped JP has at minimal +15 emnity before gear which in my case adds like another 15~ish. You'd be hard pressed to find a DD job that wouldn't pull hate eventually in that much +emnity gear.
You are taking my comment of context.
Anyone can take a post - insert it into an entirely different context - then pretend to destroy a point that was never being made. That's what you are doing here.
That post was in reference to other pet jobs which a poster claimed was capable of tanking mobs just as effectively as the Beast Master pets was. That's not the case: and that's what I was disputing.
I was never saying other DD jobs could not compete with a Beast Master for enmity or what ever it is you are trying to say here. What I was saying is that other pets i.e. the wyvern, the puppet etc. do not remotely compare with the Beast Master pets when it comes to enmity generation and tanking ability.
I'm speaking in general terms about content across the entirety of the game over the years, not just what people do this very moment. Also, the valoredge puppet properly configured can actually tank a lot of stuff (having 100 or 1200 JP makes it really effective as well). BST might be the best at it, but the other pet jobs have kited or tanked all kinds of NMs and content throughout FFXI's history. Have you never heard of summoner burns? When WoE was new (and pretty much even to this day), many of the first clears were all or mostly summoners throwing pets at it- Although summons won't survive as long as BST pets, they also can be resummoned quickly and immediately. I've pet tanked a variety of NMs over the years on SMN. It's not a new concept and it's not exclusive to BST.
Enmity can be managed on the other pet jobs, so I'm not even considering that a factor in this.
Most of your post is smoke and mirrors.
I never said pet tanking is a new concept. I never said other pet jobs have never kited or tanked NMs through-out FF XI's history.
You made the claim that all other pet jobs were capable of doing what Beast Masters can. That's just not the case. Nothing in your post has convinced me otherwise. You even seem to admit the Beast Master is the best at it (which was my point). So to be honest with you I'm not even sure what it is we are debating at this point.
All you complainers about how BST has to get close... here you go of a BST soloing very difficult ark angel mithra:
There are more if this one example isn't enough. The distance nerf wasn't enough. Pets shouldn't be able to not only tank as well as a PLD but do damage as well as a DD against very difficult NMs while the master just sits there doing job emotes laughing all the way. Pets should be able to tank OR do damage, not both. That is what needs to be fixed.
I agree with you. They probably do also when they are honest with themselves. But once you get used to power it's hard to let go of - and a lot of them are probably in self-denial and refusing to admit it to themselves because they and understandably so were enjoying being an entire party all unto themselves.
There are several jobs which can do both, which makes them able to solo even hardest NMs. Bst is by far not alone there. All of them are already balanced, Bst is too.
I understand you don't like Bst, it makes your Brd unwanted, which is not ok.
But that Bst only hype is caused by the player community, not by the job itsself. It became good, yes. But not so OP as people think it is.
The real performance gap you find in gear and jobpoints and if player using different equipsets.
SE knows this, that's why they were a bit shy and did not nerf dmg output.
I have never seen another job that compares to what those Beast Master pets can do in terms of damage and defense.
I've seen Beast Masters in mediocre gear and not many job points summon that cricket and obliterate notorious monsters in seconds what the rest of the group was struggling to kill.
There is a reason so many people think Beast Master was OP (basically everyone who does not play one). It's because they have seen it with their own eyes. It's not just hype.
bazookatooth
10-08-2015, 02:43 AM
You are taking my comment of context.
Anyone can take a post - insert it into an entirely different context - then pretend to destroy a point that was never being made. That's what you are doing here.
That post was in reference to other pet jobs which a poster claimed was capable of tanking mobs just as effectively as the Beast Master was. That's not the case: and that's what I was disputing.
I was never saying other DD jobs could not compete with a Beast Master for enmity or what ever it is you are trying to say here. What I was saying is that other pets i.e. the wyvern, the puppet etc. do not remotely compare with the Beast Master pets when it comes to enmity generation and tanking ability.
Dragons are not meant to tank, or even deal much damage for that matter. they support the master. Puppets actually tank quite well. Probably better than BST pets. Avatars can't tank well, but they are infinitely renewable and deal huge damage. PLD still tanks better than any pet. You made it sound like BST was OMG OP because it can pull hate off you. Any DD can do that. Whatever your point was, it was lost.
I've seen Beast Masters in mediocre gear and not many job points summon that cricket and obliterate notorious monsters in seconds what the rest of the group was struggling to kill.
What notorious monster is this? Please do tell cause I can't think of a single relevant/modern NM I can kill solo that would be difficult for most other jobs to solo...
Dragons are not meant to tank, or even deal much damage for that matter. they support the master. Puppets actually tank quite well. Probably better than BST pets. Avatars can't tank well, but they are infinitely renewable and deal huge damage. PLD still tanks better than any pet. You made it sound like BST was OMG OP because it can pull hate off you. Any DD can do that. Whatever your point was, it was lost.
No it's your point that is lost actually.
You can't say all other pet jobs can tank just as well as the Beast Master (which is what the post I was responding to said) then try to counter my post by admitting they can't because they weren't designed to.
What ever you feel the other pet jobs are designed to do isn't the issue. My point - which you just ceded - is that the other pets do not come close to competing with the enmity generation of the Beast Master pets.
So not only was my point not lost - but you actually reinforced it for me. Thank you. :)
What notorious monster is this? Please do tell cause I can't think of a single relevant/modern NM I can kill solo that would be difficult for most other jobs to solo...
You are living in a fantasy world Olor if you think most other jobs can easily solo all the relevant notorious monsters the Beast Master was capable of. When you make comments like this: it makes it impossible for me to take you seriously.
Just take your pick - any of the normal, difficult, very difficult higher-tier battlefields which the Beast Master could easily solo. I watched a Beast Master cut through skirmish notorious monsters like water - the same one that was dropping meteors and one-shotting the rest of the party. I watch them eat normal and difficult avatars for breakfast - where as I have to equip all - mdt and sub /rune to barely survive their hits on very easy.
So if you are actually going to stand there and say to me that the Beast Master was not better at solo than most other jobs then you have just lost all credibility with me on this subject.
BST has been forced to solo by design and by community exile from day one. The fact we can solo is not the key issue, because the entire game is being pushed forward a solo centric attitude and design so, of course BST is going to expand as people are forced to solo as the servers shrink and individuals game time also shrinks.
Now that said, I'll admit a damage adjustment was and is needed for several jobs but the Nerf BST received was unnecessary and is inconsistent and should be undone with the damage adjustment put in its place.
The game is winding down. Lets not make overreaching changes to any functionality of a job at this stage.
Community reps, please respond, is the dev team looking at this problem?
Ataraxia
10-08-2015, 06:32 AM
What notorious monster is this? Please do tell cause I can't think of a single relevant/modern NM I can kill solo that would be difficult for most other jobs to solo...
Try not to let Dale bother you too much. I don't think that guy even play BST and it's jealous because he doesn't know how to play his job.
Notice the part when he said "Just take your pick - any of the normal, difficult, very difficult higher-tier battlefields which the Beast Master could easily solo.
Wow did he just say BST can do ANY high tier battlefields on difficult and very difficult? that's is an embarrassment to make such a claim that a BST can that. If he's referring to avatar that take high level of concentration to do that and there is no way a regular BST can pull it out without dying. I know BST can do some avatar on difficult and might need Dawn Mulsum but those BST are at 1200. I don't wanna call it a solo if people resort using trust when double trust event is up.
Wow did he just say BST can do ANY high tier battlefields on difficult and very difficult? that's is an embarrassment to make such a claim that a BST can that.
No, he said any bst without capacity gifts and with bad gear can solo any high tier battlefields on difficult and very difficult
I've seen Beast Masters in mediocre gear and not many job points...
And not sure how he is "seeing" them if they are in battlefields.
As a BST in mediocre gear with not many job points, the only NM from recent times I've been able to solo is one of the NMs that pops among the ordinary mobs in escha zitah and I only did that by using my one hour and I am absolutely certain it would have been much easier to do the mob on BLU.
I have tried to solo unity NMs and gotten creamed. I tried an avatar on VE and got creamed, so not sure where this idea that some derp BST is soloing all the very difficult battlefields is coming from.
Yeah, I am a casual player, not a great DD etc. but the claim is being made that BSTs like me were clearing everything solo and it is simply not true. Abyssea NMs? Sure. So can everyone else. Meebles? Sure, so can everyone else.
Yeah BSTs *could* solo some difficult content. BSTs with capped points and hundreds of millions in augmented gear. Meanwhile, SCH, SMN, BLU, PUP, PLD, etc solo the same and some different things. Are there certain NMs that BST was better at than those jobs - sure - but there are plenty of NMs that bst is terrible for.
You are living in a fantasy world Olor if you think most other jobs can easily solo all the relevant notorious monsters the Beast Master was capable of. When you make comments like this: it makes it impossible for me to take you seriously.
You said
I've seen Beast Masters in mediocre gear and not many job points...
That is not the same as "the world's best bsts, with capped job points and all the best gear."
I am a BST with "mediocre gear and not many job points" and I am telling you I can't solo anything relevant, not before the nerf and certainly not after. So unless you provide an example, I am calling BS.
Maybe you just assumed the BST had bad gear and no job points but they were capped and wearing hundreds of millions in augments. Still wanna know what NM you're talking about though that a *party* was struggling with and BST demolished. And how did the BST even get the NM? Did you let it go yellow? You all die?
And I would be SHOCKED if you could find me examples of more than maybe 1 or 2 solos that have EVER only been doable on BST. SCH and BLU are both way better at soloing NMs than BST.
Daniel_Hatcher
10-08-2015, 07:52 AM
What notorious monster is this? Please do tell cause I can't think of a single relevant/modern NM I can kill solo that would be difficult for most other jobs to solo...
He's probably talking about Leaping Lizzie etc...
He's probably talking about Leaping Lizzie etc...
That's the hilarious thing. BST has always had a niche as a job that could solo. To whine about it after excluding BSTs from party content for so long... when other jobs are actually way better at soloing than bst... wow, just wow.
Fynlar
10-08-2015, 08:09 AM
Just take your pick - any of the normal, difficult, very difficult higher-tier battlefields which the Beast Master could easily solo. I watched a Beast Master cut through skirmish notorious monsters like water - the same one that was dropping meteors and one-shotting the rest of the party. I watch them eat normal and difficult avatars for breakfast - where as I have to equip all - mdt and sub /rune to barely survive their hits on very easy.Yeah, no, that isn't happening as easily as you think it is. The ones that you see doing this are likely geared/gifted to the teeth.
You try throwing most average BSTs into that AA MR VD fight, and even though the fight is still very simplistic in design (as I said, the one actual threat to a close-range BST being easily blocked with Utsusemi), they are going to get creamed.
I don't wanna call it a solo if people resort using trust when double trust event is up. Trusts won't do much for a BST other than speed up a kill, potentially just a little bit, because trusts will usually get massacred by anything that matters, and if the pet is indisposed and the BST takes any hit by anything that matters they will quite possibly be 1-shot by anything that matters too. Trusts also won't (directly) heal the pet. Tank trusts also are not effective for long; the pet will rip hate off them soon enough assuming you are the caliber of BST required for pulling feats like this off.
bazookatooth
10-08-2015, 03:23 PM
No it's your point that is lost actually.
You can't say all other pet jobs can tank just as well as the Beast Master (which is what the post I was responding to said) then try to counter my post by admitting they can't because they weren't designed to.
What ever you feel the other pet jobs are designed to do isn't the issue. My point - which you just ceded - is that the other pets do not come close to competing with the enmity generation of the Beast Master pets.
This is what I mean... why are you trying to make that point??? First off, Puppets can tank quite well. Here's a guide to help you understand how that works: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/47383/so-you-wanna-tank-on-pup/. Second, why would DRG or SMN want to pull more emnity? SMN pets die and get recast multiple times in a fight. Why should they care if the pet does anything hate wise beyond creating the minimal amount of emnity required to keep the master from getting attacked? And DRG pets... come on. At least try to be serious.
So not only was my point not lost - but you actually reinforced it for me. Thank you. :)
I'm still lost. Pup can tank fine (See the above link). So I didn't support your point on that one. Summoner doesn't need to tank because pets are expendable. So I didn't support your point on that one (Unless your point was that spending money on Mulsums, thetas and jugs is easier than casting a spell). And dragoons aren't a real pet job so you can stop bringing them up. They are about as relevant to this conversation as BST is to party curing.
Alhanelem
10-08-2015, 03:50 PM
I never said pet tanking is a new concept. I never said other pet jobs have never kited or tanked NMs through-out FF XI's history. No, pet tanking is not a new concept (The irony here is right after saying pet tanking is a new concept, you immediately admit other jobs have kited and tanked NMs before, therefore making pets tanking not a new concept). If you want to get really specific and say "Pet tanking against hardcore DPS in endgame content" is a new concept, that's a little closer but even that has been done to a limited degree prior to audolin, item levels, etc.
Also, as has been mentioned, pet tanking is not exclusive to beastmaster. With the last batch of attachments valoredge can actually tank- Not a new concept for PUP (There's been an attachment for enmity generation since PUP first existed), but the auto lacked durability prior.
Pet burns are also still technically pets tanking, and they've been around as long as pet jobs have existed (read: since FFXI existed).
Try not to let Dale bother you too much. I don't think that guy even play BST and it's jealous because he doesn't know how to play his job.
Notice the part when he said "Just take your pick - any of the normal, difficult, very difficult higher-tier battlefields which the Beast Master could easily solo.
Wow did he just say BST can do ANY high tier battlefields on difficult and very difficult? that's is an embarrassment to make such a claim that a BST can that. If he's referring to avatar that take high level of concentration to do that and there is no way a regular BST can pull it out without dying. I know BST can do some avatar on difficult and might need Dawn Mulsum but those BST are at 1200. I don't wanna call it a solo if people resort using trust when double trust event is up.
I've already said I didn't play Beast Master. So that wasn't much of a revelation. I must be jealous and suck at my job because I think Beast Masters were overpowered? That's fair.
My comment was not to suggest BST can solo any high tier battlefield on difficult and very difficult. I was referring to those that they could solo: and they could do more of them than most other jobs.
No, he said any bst without capacity gifts and with bad gear can solo any high tier battlefields on difficult and very difficult
And not sure how he is "seeing" them if they are in battlefields.
As a BST in mediocre gear with not many job points, the only NM from recent times I've been able to solo is one of the NMs that pops among the ordinary mobs in escha zitah and I only did that by using my one hour and I am absolutely certain it would have been much easier to do the mob on BLU.
I have tried to solo unity NMs and gotten creamed. I tried an avatar on VE and got creamed, so not sure where this idea that some derp BST is soloing all the very difficult battlefields is coming from.
Yeah, I am a casual player, not a great DD etc. but the claim is being made that BSTs like me were clearing everything solo and it is simply not true. Abyssea NMs? Sure. So can everyone else. Meebles? Sure, so can everyone else.
Yeah BSTs *could* solo some difficult content. BSTs with capped points and hundreds of millions in augmented gear. Meanwhile, SCH, SMN, BLU, PUP, PLD, etc solo the same and some different things. Are there certain NMs that BST was better at than those jobs - sure - but there are plenty of NMs that bst is terrible for.
You said
That is not the same as "the world's best bsts, with capped job points and all the best gear."
I am a BST with "mediocre gear and not many job points" and I am telling you I can't solo anything relevant, not before the nerf and certainly not after. So unless you provide an example, I am calling BS.
Maybe you just assumed the BST had bad gear and no job points but they were capped and wearing hundreds of millions in augments. Still wanna know what NM you're talking about though that a *party* was struggling with and BST demolished. And how did the BST even get the NM? Did you let it go yellow? You all die?
And I would be SHOCKED if you could find me examples of more than maybe 1 or 2 solos that have EVER only been doable on BST. SCH and BLU are both way better at soloing NMs than BST.
I don't know what to tell you. The Beast Masters I saw would cream very easy avatars - not the other way around.
Still wanna know what NM you're talking about though that a *party* was struggling with and BST demolished. And how did the BST even get the NM? Did you let it go yellow? You all die
In an alluvium skirmish Beast Masters can go claim notorious monsters on their own. They do not have to wait for the party. He was demolishing notorious monsters the rest of the party had struggled with previously.
I tried to give you an example - the one that drops meteors. There is also the one that charms you - he took care of that one with ease also. Keep in mind you can fight multiple amounts of the same notorious monster in a single run. He obliterated most if all of the notorious monsters we encountered. He would also wipe out an entire screen of enemies in a single move. It was rather ridiculous and had we not even been there I don't think it would have made much difference.
Yeah, no, that isn't happening as easily as you think it is. The ones that you see doing this are likely geared/gifted to the teeth.
You try throwing most average BSTs into that AA MR VD fight, and even though the fight is still very simplistic in design (as I said, the one actual threat to a close-range BST being easily blocked with Utsusemi), they are going to get creamed.
.
That might be the case when it comes to the extreme examples of a very difficult AA fight.
But it didn't take an exceptionally geared Beast Master to take out normal or even difficult tier avatar fights before these nerfs. I saw them do it routinely.
This is what I mean... why are you trying to make that point??? First off, Puppets can tank quite well. Here's a guide to help you understand how that works: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/47383/so-you-wanna-tank-on-pup/. Second, why would DRG or SMN want to pull more emnity? SMN pets die and get recast multiple times in a fight. Why should they care if the pet does anything hate wise beyond creating the minimal amount of emnity required to keep the master from getting attacked? And DRG pets... come on. At least try to be serious.
I'm still lost. Pup can tank fine (See the above link). So I didn't support your point on that one. Summoner doesn't need to tank because pets are expendable. So I didn't support your point on that one (Unless your point was that spending money on Mulsums, thetas and jugs is easier than casting a spell). And dragoons aren't a real pet job so you can stop bringing them up. They are about as relevant to this conversation as BST is to party curing.
My point was that the Beast Master pets tank much better than the other pet jobs. It was a simple point and I'm not sure why it has you so lost.
If you don't think it's relevant to the conversation then why did you comment on the post to begin with? I was answering another poster that was specifically talking about other pet jobs tanking and how they can do it just as well as Beast Masters. I was disputing that: so of course it was relevant.
As far as the puppet: fine, if you say so. Seeing a puppet master on this game is like finding a four leaf clover.
No, pet tanking is not a new concept (The irony here is right after saying pet tanking is a new concept, you immediately admit other jobs have kited and tanked NMs before, therefore making pets tanking not a new concept). If you want to get really specific and say "Pet tanking against hardcore DPS in endgame content" is a new concept, that's a little closer but even that has been done to a limited degree prior to audolin, item levels, etc.
Also, as has been mentioned, pet tanking is not exclusive to beastmaster. With the last batch of attachments valoredge can actually tank- Not a new concept for PUP (There's been an attachment for enmity generation since PUP first existed), but the auto lacked durability prior.
Pet burns are also still technically pets tanking, and they've been around as long as pet jobs have existed (read: since FFXI existed).
What is new is the crazy amount of damage and defense Beast Master pets got: essentially turning them into super tanks.
I was never trying to suggest pet tanking it a novel idea or exclusive to Beast Master. The strength and power of the Beast Master pets is what makes them uniquely powerful as tanks.
bazookatooth
10-08-2015, 11:48 PM
My point was that the Beast Master pets tank much better than the other pet jobs. It was a simple point and I'm not sure why it has you so lost.
Because not only is it not true in the case of pup, but it doesn't matter because Pup can tank and SMN doesn't need to. BST also has higher Axe skill than any other pet job. Also irrelevant to the conversation. You can go on and debate it all you want, but it doesn't matter.
If you don't think it's relevant to the conversation then why did you comment on the post to begin with? I was answering another poster that was specifically talking about other pet jobs tanking and how they can do it just as well as Beast Masters. I was disputing that: so of course it was relevant.
No, you made this statement:
...when you can roll a Beast Master and do great damage while being able to tank some of the strongest notorious monsters in the game all while standing back and avoiding damage yourself?
And someone pointed out that all pet jobs have been doing that (pups by actually tanking and SMN by recalling pets). You took that off on some irrelevant tangent about emnity generation which does not change the outcome. Pet jobs have historically been able to kill things just like bst does albeit using slightly different methods (Because they are different jobs). Sometimes more or less successfully depending on the NM.
But the reason I responded was because it was both false (Pup can tank) and intentionally misleading (Smn doesn't need / want to tank like a bst pet) and I just don't like people spreading FUD.
As far as the puppet: fine, if you say so. Seeing a puppet master on this game is like finding a four leaf clover.
That's probably because people spread FUD all over the net about how pup sucks and other people believe it. Kind of like how you are basically telling everyone that they shouldn't play anything but bst right now.
Besides, the real tanking debate should be about the fact that PLD is miles ahead of NIN and RUN on everything but that stupid death rabbit in zitah.
Elexia
10-09-2015, 03:27 AM
Ermm... Sam still does crazy damage via skill chains. And I played BLM throughout ToaU without a problem. What did I have to change jobs for? Salvage and...
Unequip all of your gear, use only your Great Katana and see if you can replicate the initial 2-handed patch that allowed you to do full damage with no gear whatsoever on relevant content.
Dragons are not meant to tank, or even deal much damage for that matter. they support the master. Puppets actually tank quite well. Probably better than BST pets. Avatars can't tank well, but they are infinitely renewable and deal huge damage. PLD still tanks better than any pet. You made it sound like BST was OMG OP because it can pull hate off you. Any DD can do that. Whatever your point was, it was lost.
Jug pets tanked better than the 'tank frame' for PUP though. PUPs also have more to do to keep up (attachments.) Of course a PLD can still tank better...there would be a problem if it couldn't. Saltiness aside, if you played XI longer than 2 years, especially "old school XI" you know full well people don't bandwagon jobs just for the sake of it.
That's probably because people spread FUD all over the net about how pup sucks and other people believe it. Kind of like how you are basically telling everyone that they shouldn't play anything but bst right now.
Besides, the real tanking debate should be about the fact that PLD is miles ahead of NIN and RUN on everything but that stupid death rabbit in zitah.
That's not even really a debate though. PLD has always been and realistically should always be the "go to" tank and have been designed as such - which is why people always scream foul when it's incapable of properly tanking certain content. NIN was never meant to be a tank, but now they're trying to stick with the community design of it tanking it can't outdo PLD. RUN is in a weird spot because like DRK in XIV, it's extremely specialized but still works fine. And sadly, no not all pet jobs have been doing it as well as bst..again, there's a reason people bandwagoned to BST instead of SMN and PUP.
[QUOTE=Dale;562967]My point was that the Beast Master pets tank much better than the other pet jobs. It was a simple point and I'm not sure why it has you so lost.[/quote[
Because not only is it not true in the case of pup, but it doesn't matter because Pup can tank and SMN doesn't need to. BST also has higher Axe skill than any other pet job. Also irrelevant to the conversation. You can go on and debate it all you want, but it doesn't matter.
No, you made this statement:
And someone pointed out that all pet jobs have been doing that (pups by actually tanking and SMN by recalling pets). You took that off on some irrelevant tangent about emnity generation which does not change the outcome. Pet jobs have historically been able to kill things just like bst does albeit using slightly different methods (Because they are different jobs). Sometimes more or less successfully depending on the NM.
But the reason I responded was because it was both false (Pup can tank) and intentionally misleading (Smn doesn't need / want to tank like a bst pet) and I just don't like people spreading FUD.
That's probably because people spread FUD all over the net about how pup sucks and other people believe it. Kind of like how you are basically telling everyone that they shouldn't play anything but bst right now.
Besides, the real tanking debate should be about the fact that PLD is miles ahead of NIN and RUN on everything but that stupid death rabbit in zitah.
Not sure where to even begin with this.
When you are discussing the ability of a pet to tank - then yes - enmity is definitely a relevant factor and not an irrelevant tangent.
Beast Master pets can tank even in parties (not just solo) because they create a lot of enmity with their crazy damage and can live while doing it due to their high defenses. Try doing that with other pet jobs. You are going to be disappointed.
In other words: there is no slightly different method that is going to make up the difference. The Beast Master pets are just superior in terms of tanking ability. When you have a pet that can both do great damage and tank - plus you have the added luxury of being able to stand back out of harm's way - that is just too much. You are officially a one man party at that point.
Paladin is a solid tank but I don't think they are miles ahead of RUN on everything except some rabbit in Zii'Tah. RUN has some innate advantages over Paladin when it comes to resisting elemental damage and that can give them the edge in quite a few fights.
Zeargi
10-09-2015, 04:10 AM
I am no BST, I've been trying to perfect my BLM for almost all of 2015. I believe that you and everybody else that wants the BST nerf reversed, should vote for it with your purse.... Hopefully, if enough people cancel their subscriptions, SE should see the light.
While money does talk in most cases, I don't think that kind of extreme should need to be taken. All the jobs have gear that can be augmented, which is what I'm think you're getting at with trying to make the Perfect BLM. The Problem with DD classes vs Pet Classes, there are no augments that are harmonious for Both Pet and Master, which has been said quite a bit in this post. You have to sacrifice one or the other. I can't have a -DT set up while I have a Pet -DT set that needs to used too. I can let my pet take the brunt and hope for the best with Call Beast, Reward, or Bestial Loyalty... or Take the Hit myself and pray I don't die. It's all about give and take, I don't mind getting dirty if the field is leveled, but it's not. People don't complain about COR or RNGs having to keep their distance, because that's how the job is meant to be played, but SAMs that have a C ranking in Archery, and can wear heavy armor aren't slapped on the wrist for playing at a distance when the have loads of Job Abilities/Traits that turn them into TP Factories. Yet Jobs like THF which has a C in Marksmanship and wear's Medium Armor can't have the same option? If they want people to play a certain way, they need to give the proper means to do so. And quit saying it's about 'balance' when things aren't even even to begin with. WAR is by all means a Tanking class, but you won't find anyone that tanks anything Endgame as a WAR. Because PLD has it beat hands down, yet no one complains about that? And what about NIN being removed pretty much as a Tank? I don't see too often RUNs tanking in the Endgame either. People might go /NIN, /WAR, or /RUN... But PLD is still the apex of Tanking because of the Job Abilities and Gear that it gets to control and mitigate damage. Give the other jobs something to work with, then we'll talk in earnest, but until that time... This change is unfair, and 'unbalanced'.
The Problem with DD classes vs Pet Classes, there are no augments that are harmonious for Both Pet and Master, which has been said quite a bit in this post. You have to sacrifice one or the other. I can't have a -DT set up while I have a Pet -DT set that needs to used too. I can let my pet take the brunt and hope for the best with Call Beast, Reward, or Bestial Loyalty... or Take the Hit myself and pray I don't die. It's all about give and take, I don't mind getting dirty if the field is leveled, but it's not. .
Seriously. If they let all my gear stats apply to my pet, allowed my pet to be hit with all AOE buffs - allowed my pet to be targeted with single target buffs and heals - I wouldn't be complaining about the distance nerf. Taking away the only good part of the job was BS.
bazookatooth
10-09-2015, 08:03 AM
Unequip all of your gear, use only your Great Katana and see if you can replicate the initial 2-handed patch that allowed you to do full damage with no gear whatsoever on relevant content.
I'm unclear on this... So you think BST needs a nerf because SAM can't kill everything naked anymore?...
Jug pets tanked better than the 'tank frame' for PUP though. PUPs also have more to do to keep up (attachments.) Of course a PLD can still tank better...there would be a problem if it couldn't. Saltiness aside, if you played XI longer than 2 years, especially "old school XI" you know full well people don't bandwagon jobs just for the sake of it.
What is a bandwagon these day? I've had every job 99 for years now. I have relics for jobs that I haven't played in months. I still collect my gear for them, make my macros, etc. but I'm not going to play something that is subpar for the situation just because it's my "main". Maining a job doesn't really mean much to someone who has played since the JP launch. If the content allows for it, I'm gonna go THF, BST or MNK every time, but if it's high tier escha stuff, I'm on SCH, BLM or GEO because it faster and MNKs and THFs are a dime a dozen. Bandwagon or not.
That's not even really a debate though. PLD has always been and realistically should always be the "go to" tank and have been designed as such - which is why people always scream foul when it's incapable of properly tanking certain content. NIN was never meant to be a tank, but now they're trying to stick with the community design of it tanking it can't outdo PLD. RUN is in a weird spot because like DRK in XIV, it's extremely specialized but still works fine. And sadly, no not all pet jobs have been doing it as well as bst..again, there's a reason people bandwagoned to BST instead of SMN and PUP.
Whether PLD should be the best doesn't really matter to me. I'm just saying that the other jobs shouldn't be so far behind that they can't get an invite most of the time. I think PLD should be desired, but I don;t think any job should be absolutely necessary. Whether it's because the content actually requires it or just because people think the other jobs suck, if other jobs are lagging, they should be bumped up. I also think tanking should be more about getting and holding hate and less about just not getting killed. That's the main reason for all this BST nerf nonsense. Tanking is no longer about emnity. It's about survival and most jobs just can't survive well. Tank or not. It turned from a game of "who uses their abilities and gear macros to hold hate the best" to "Who is PLD".
I think people play SMN less because SMN and PUP are more complex to gear for. Not that the gear is necessarily harder to get, but it takes more research to know when to use what and where because they don;t work like most jobs. BST is straight forward. Pets have no buffs, no moving parts. Just a few moves and almost all of them do physical damage with one SC property. Anyone who has ever played a DD job can play it based on that knowledge at least to some extent because you gear for the same stats on your pet that a regular DD would. SMN and PUP have a lot of stats that don't translate to other DD jobs and they also have buffs etc. that fill more party rolls than just doing damage.
Not sure where to even begin with this.
When you are discussing the ability of a pet to tank - then yes - enmity is definitely a relevant factor and not an irrelevant tangent.Beast Master pets can tank even in parties (not just solo) because they create a lot of enmity with their crazy damage and can live while doing it due to their high defenses. Try doing that with other pet jobs. You are going to be disappointed.
It's irrelevant because nobody uses BST pets to tank except... Beastmasters. You will never see group killing escha NMs with a samurai, BLM etc. and a BST pet tanking. Even just having a GEO cast a bubble is a risky endeavor with just a pet tanking. You really have no idea how this stuff works. Quit while you're ahead and Go read a tanking guide. You need a lot more than just damage to hold hate. And anything that wouldn't eat through a pet and cost a bazzillion gil in thetas and mulsums is probably going to be way easier to beat using other jobs anyways.
In other words: there is no slightly different method that is going to make up the difference. The Beast Master pets are just superior in terms of tanking ability. When you have a pet that can both do great damage and tank - plus you have the added luxury of being able to stand back out of harm's way - that is just too much. You are officially a one man party at that point.
TANK WHAT? (Ignoring the fact that PUP can tank in parties and SMN would never want to) What are you seeing a BST tank that you really wish you could tank with you carbuncle and / or can't tank better on PLD? And here's the real kicker... I don;t even want to tank. I want you to take all the hits. I don;t want to drop all my money on Thetas and Mulsums. I'd much rather you take all the hits and just cast cure on yourself.
Paladin is a solid tank but I don't think they are miles ahead of RUN on everything except some rabbit in Zii'Tah. RUN has some innate advantages over Paladin when it comes to resisting elemental damage and that can give them the edge in quite a few fights.
They may have an advantage, but not enough advantage and not in enough fights to warrant ever needing RUN over PLD. And half the time it's for reyke and gambit. Not to tank.
Ataraxia
10-09-2015, 08:22 AM
Ok everyone i think we got a response from the Community Team.
Camate has made a post comment about BST. Be sure to check out that link below.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/48581-SE-and-fixing-things-that-arent-broke?p=562910#post562910
Fynlar
10-09-2015, 10:05 AM
because they create a lot of enmity with their crazy damage
I dunno where you've been, but this hasn't been the case since March.
Haven't you read stories of BST/DNCs ripping hate after the pet has done thousands of damage with just a single Curing Waltz III? Sure, they can Snarl it, but that is still ridiculous that they need to in that context in the first place.
bazookatooth
10-09-2015, 11:04 AM
I dunno where you've been, but this hasn't been the case since March.
Haven't you read stories of BST/DNCs ripping hate after the pet has done thousands of damage with just a single Curing Waltz III? Sure, they can Snarl it, but that is still ridiculous that they need to in that context in the first place.
ANd snarl only works if the master builds emnity which the master isn't going to be building any significant emnity on anything that actually needs a tank.
machini
10-09-2015, 11:36 AM
ANd snarl only works if the master builds emnity which the master isn't going to be building any significant emnity on anything that actually needs a tank.
Wait, are you saying that BST is complicated, more complicated than people who have never played it understand, and that knee-jerk reactions are bad things? That this nerf was, perhaps, not a good idea, and that there were better alternatives that would have yielded better results while not completely pissing off anyone who cares about BST?
The suggested changes relayed by Camate sound just as terrible as what we have now. I don't see any reason to keep my sub up.
bazookatooth
10-10-2015, 06:43 AM
Wait, are you saying that BST is complicated, more complicated than people who have never played it understand, and that knee-jerk reactions are bad things? That this nerf was, perhaps, not a good idea, and that there were better alternatives that would have yielded better results while not completely pissing off anyone who cares about BST?
Yeah, more or less.
Alhanelem
10-10-2015, 07:21 AM
When you are discussing the ability of a pet to tank - then yes - enmity is definitely a relevant factor and not an irrelevant tangent. It's typically irrelevant in the context of how we're tanking. In SMN's case,typically you're only tanking against other SMNs, people who know what's going on and control their output accordingly, etc. PUP can generate plenty enough enmity with the release of the 2nd strobe attachment (and keeps itself alive with repairkit regen, repair oils, and also cannibal blade healing it for like 1k and never missing). The only difference with BST is it doesn't have to do anything to tank. The reason it's an irrelevant tangent is because it's irrelevant to the fact that tanking on the other pet jobs (except DRG) is possible.
In shorter terms, the simple fact is PUP can tank when geared properly. SMN only ever has to tank against itself and/or probably other SMNs, and is perfectly able to do so.
dasva
10-10-2015, 07:14 PM
Yeah we've been using pup tanks for months now. Heck a couple of months ago I wanted to see how well it kept hate so I went run... none of the bst pets pulled hate, the avatars only briefly after their huge spikes but the pup frequently took hate off me if I wasn't paying attention. Pre nerf we had done some with just bsts and smn for pets but after the enmity nerft awhile back they had a really hard time keeping hate off the support.
Most the time it is used as a tank it's just with other pets anyways so the momentary switch to those other pets is trivial enough not to matter. Heck my sharpshot frame frequently pulls hate from the tank frames with ws spamming... takes a hit loses it and regens right back like a boss. The avatars they live they die it doesn't really matter much they get resummoned and bp again but if the smns actually geared for pet dt they can keep them alive for awhile. And if you want to get really fancy you get pld/run lvl enmity gain via fancy Ventriloquy tricks.
I'm halfway certain there might be a way to get wyverns to tank...they certainly got the best dt out there but that's some serious next lvl square peg stuff
Fynlar
10-10-2015, 09:03 PM
I'm halfway certain there might be a way to get wyverns to tank...
The one thing they do that might have served as any decent hate generation (Healing Breath) doesn't actually generate any hate because apparently NPC heals just don't generate hate for whatever reason. They cannot be made to use any other hate generation tool, I don't think THFs can Trick Attack onto them, and Super Jump only gets hate off the DRG, not transferred to the wyvern, AFAIK.
Other than DRGs Super Jumping their way to safety while the wyvern takes the fall for them, I'd be shocked if there was any real way to get them to "tank" anything
It's typically irrelevant in the context of how we're tanking..
No it isn't irrelevant.
Enmity is a factor when it comes to considering how effective a tank is. That's just a fact.
Detailing different strategies of tanking doesn't change that.
It's irrelevant because nobody uses BST pets to tank except... Beastmasters. .
I've been in many parties that have utilized the Beast Master pets as tanks. So that just isn't the case.
.
I'm halfway certain there might be a way to get wyverns to tank...they certainly got the best dt out there but that's some serious next lvl square peg stuff
Their enmity generation is too low to effectively tank. Which was my point and why Beast Master's have such an edge over other pet jobs when it comes to tanking.
If Wyverns could create the kind of enmity the Beast Master pets can - then they could tank.
They may have an advantage, but not enough advantage and not in enough fights to warrant ever needing RUN over PLD. And half the time it's for reyke and gambit. Not to tank.
That wasn't what you said.
You said the Paladin was miles above Rune Fencer on everything except some rabbit in Zi'tah.
You did not say the RUN had an advantage, but not enough of an advantage to warrant ever needing a RUN over PLD. Those are two completely different statements.
So I'll take the fact you had to go back and drastically change what you originally said to show you were incorrect with your initial comment and now realize that. Because I of course never said you needed to have a RUN over a PLD to tank anything.
Other than DRGs Super Jumping their way to safety while the wyvern takes the fall for them, I'd be shocked if there was any real way to get them to "tank" anything
There isn't. At least not realistically.
Though I'm sure the Beast Master sympathizers in this thread will just say Dragoon pets were never meant to tank so therefore it's irrelevant - or dragoons aren't real pet jobs or what ever else they keep saying.
They should just admit Beast Master is superior to the other pet jobs when it comes to tanking (which is what I said) and stop making these silly arguments to try and hide that fact.
bazookatooth
10-10-2015, 10:46 PM
You basically just made my point for me. Though you probably don't realize it.
Now ask yourself this... "Why is that? Could it be because Beast Master pets make superior tanks when compared to the other pet jobs?"
I believe that might be the reason.
If other pet jobs could use their pets as tanks you had better believe they would be doing it.
Go hop on Samurai or BLM and try fighting an Escha Ra'Aun tier 2-3 NM with just a BST pet as tank. We'll all wait with bated breath for the screen shots of your (sure to be) incredibly successful attempts.
Here's a quote from the guy who wrote that pup tanking guide to mull over while you do that. "The methods I am talking about are for people who have extreme tanking needs. I.E. you have REALLY good DDs. I have literally the best Beastmasters in the game in my LS, so I've had to find and adopt better ways to manage enmity. "
Good luck with your BST tank.
Alhanelem
10-11-2015, 12:44 AM
No it isn't irrelevant.
Enmity is a factor when it comes to considering how effective a tank is. That's just a fact.
Detailing different strategies of tanking doesn't change that.
No. Enmity has nothing to do with considering how effective a tank is. That's just a fact.
The only thing that matters is did you survive, and did you win. If I"m with a healer, a buffer, and some pups and SMNs, how much enmity does my pet need to generate? Answer: Not a lot
The overall quantity of enmity is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that it's more than what the other party members are generating. I don't care if your BST can generate 87324687324687324 points of enmity and my puppet can only generate 7324687324687324 points. As long as nobody died and as long as he kept the mob's attention, the number is irrelevant. I really don't give 2 farts how much enmity you generate.
The actual amount of enmity only matters in attention-getting contests (I won't risk using the more popular terms on this forum). I'm really not even sure what the point of your comments are. Maybe you want to argue BST is the *best* pet job for tanking. While I don't agree, that's something that can be debated. At issue here is the simple fact of whether or not other jobs can do it and the answer is yes.
dasva
10-11-2015, 06:29 AM
Their enmity generation is too low to effectively tank. Which was my point and why Beast Master's have such an edge over other pet jobs when it comes to tanking.
If Wyverns could create the kind of enmity the Beast Master pets can - then they could tank.
Again like I said next lvl square peg stuff. All jugs do is deal dmg which creates very little enmity at all. Seriously I seen jugs used 2-3 moves at the start of a fight and me eating food has pulled hate. Therefore all I have to do is get dmg anywhere near what they do and take advantage of the vastly superior dt and buffing capabilities of wyverns so they lose less than everyone else in range eating AoEs. It's still in the works but I have managed to get a wyvern at near capped attack speed while still maintaining way more dt than jugs can even get.
Also no pup completely destroys bst on tanking
dasva
10-11-2015, 06:42 AM
The one thing they do that might have served as any decent hate generation (Healing Breath) doesn't actually generate any hate because apparently NPC heals just don't generate hate for whatever reason. They cannot be made to use any other hate generation tool, I don't think THFs can Trick Attack onto them, and Super Jump only gets hate off the DRG, not transferred to the wyvern, AFAIK.
Other than DRGs Super Jumping their way to safety while the wyvern takes the fall for them, I'd be shocked if there was any real way to get them to "tank" anything
Are we sure that is still the case for healing breath though? I mean npcs in battles generate cure enmity now as do trusts... I hear of people using auto cure cheats for enmity... they could've easily changed it... I'll probably get around to testing it eventually but my main focus is on pup right now which is a rather large amount of things to test with all the changes and general lack of posted testing.
Regardless my first idea was actually getting hate the same way melees do... dealing dmg minus the ws. Basically constantly spirit link over some hastes and marches some ja haste (need to test if hasso works) and some other buffs and watch the wyvern melee as fast as well buffed melees. Then give them tons of dt partly to keep them alive but largely to stem the loss of enmity from dmg to compensate for the lesser generation. Still a work in progress and it's largely a thought experiment and will probably be cotanking at best but a lot of pet strategies often include some bouncing as long as it's kept off the players and less of the directed dmg goes to the less defensive pets it's fine
Go hop on Samurai or BLM and try fighting an Escha Ra'Aun tier 2-3 NM with just a BST pet as tank. We'll all wait with bated breath for the screen shots of your (sure to be) incredibly successful attempts.
Here's a quote from the guy who wrote that pup tanking guide to mull over while you do that. "The methods I am talking about are for people who have extreme tanking needs. I.E. you have REALLY good DDs. I have literally the best Beastmasters in the game in my LS, so I've had to find and adopt better ways to manage enmity. "
Good luck with your BST tank.
As I've said, I've worked with Beast Master pets as tanks against all kinds of Notorious Monsters and battlefield bosses. They are quite impressive in that role and make excellent offensive tanks. They have a combination of both offense and defense that is unrivaled in my opinion.
Perhaps these samurai and black mage you mention just need to work on how to manage their threat a little better. Because they don't sound like very good DDs to me if they are incapable of working with a Beast Master pet/tank.
In any case: you are doing what is typical in these forums. You try to place every topic in the context of the extreme - as if the fact their pets can't tank some extremely difficult tier 3 NM that would probably take an army of support and a exceptionally well-geared Paladin to successfully tank anyway. Sorry but that doesn't mean they can't make good tanks.
No. Enmity has nothing to do with considering how effective a tank is. That's just a fact.
.
Of course it does. One of the more ridiculous things I've read in awhile.
Again like I said next lvl square peg stuff. All jugs do is deal dmg which creates very little enmity at all. Seriously I seen jugs used 2-3 moves at the start of a fight and me eating food has pulled hate. Therefore all I have to do is get dmg anywhere near what they do and take advantage of the vastly superior dt and buffing capabilities of wyverns so they lose less than everyone else in range eating AoEs. It's still in the works but I have managed to get a wyvern at near capped attack speed while still maintaining way more dt than jugs can even get.
Also no pup completely destroys bst on tanking
Damage still creates a lot of enmity. Maybe not as much as it used to - but it still creates a lot. Especially when it's on the scale those insane Beast Master pets have who can wipe out a screen full of incredible tough monsters in a matter of seconds.
So I'm not sure what jugs you have been using - but if they are doing such little damage a dragoon's wyvern can keep hate off of them I think it's safe to say that you are using the way wrong kind of jug.
Wyverns do have good defense. But they don't generate enough enmity to tank unless you take off your weapon and punch the monster to death. I'm all for damage dealers learning how to control their enmity - but I draw the line when they are expected to remove their weapons.
As far as this mythical puppet people keep talking about who supposedly destroys Beast Master pets - I'll believe it when I see it.
Are we sure that is still the case for healing breath though?
He is correct. Healing Breath does not generate any hate.
That's why Dragoons can make exceptional bomb healers in situations where their wyvern isn't threatened.
bazookatooth
10-11-2015, 10:38 PM
As I've said, I've worked with Beast Master pets as tanks against all kinds of Notorious Monsters and battlefield bosses. They are quite impressive in that role and make excellent offensive tanks.
Perhaps these samurai and black mage you mention just need to work on how to manage their threat a little better. Because they don't sound like very good DDs to me if they are incapable of working with a Beast Master pet/tank.
Everyone who plays BST is laughing at this comment right now because they know that you have never done it. Congratulations on jumping the shark my friend.
In any case: you are doing what is typical in these forums. You try to place every topic in the context of the extreme - as if the fact their pets can't tank some extremely difficult tier 3 NM that would probably take an army of support and a exceptionally well-geared Paladin to successfully tank anyway. Sorry but that doesn't mean they can't make good tanks.
From your original hyperbole on bst pets that started all this:
...while being able to tank some of the strongest notorious monsters in the game...
Everyone who plays BST is laughing at this comment right now because they know that you have never done it. Congratulations on jumping the shark my friend.
The problem with your post is I have done it. And done it many times.
It was a Beast Master pet who tanked titan for me so I could get my club if you want a specific example - one of many I could list you.
But you can continue to live in this delusion that Beast Master pets can't tank if you want. Because that's exactly what it is - a delusion. A complete fiction you are trying to pass off as realty because you don't want to admit Beast Masters needed to be nerfed. In the words of Nicholson "Sell crazy somewhere else..."
And yes, I said some of the strongest... I never said the strongest now did I?
I would hardly qualify that as hyperbole.
bazookatooth
10-11-2015, 10:48 PM
The problem with your post is I have done it. And done it many times.
It was a Beast Master pet who tanked titan for me so I could get my club if you want a specific example - one of many I could list you.
But you can continue to live in this delusion that Beast Master pets can't tank if you want. Because that's exactly what it is - a delusion. A complete fiction you are trying to pass off as are realty because you don't want to admit Beast Masters needed to be nerfed. In the words of Nicholson "Sell crazy somewhere else..."
And by tanked it, you mean soloed it while you did nothing...
And by tanked it, you mean soloed it while you did nothing...
NO that is not what I mean. I was fighting, healing, and everything else my character was capable of.
But obviously you was there and know what I was doing better than me apparently...
As I say, you are not living in the reality if you don't think Beast Master pets can tank. They can - and are quite good at it.
bazookatooth
10-11-2015, 10:55 PM
But obviously you was there and know what I was doing better than me apparently...
Well... I know how emnity works and all signs point to ... It didn't happen.
Well... I know how emnity works and all signs point to ... It didn't happen.
Except that it did happen. So you obviously don't know how enmity works as well as you think you do.
That or have just never seen what a Beast Master is capable of in the right hands. Because your comments demonstrate an incredible lack of knowledge in what they are capable of.
By the way, what is this? Your forum character? A level 1 character on a different server?
Why don't you post with your main character?
bazookatooth
10-11-2015, 11:19 PM
Except that it did happen. So you obviously don't know how enmity works as well as you think you do.
That or have just never seen what a Beast Master is capable of in the right hands. Because your comments demonstrate an incredible lack of knowledge in what they are capable of.
By the way, what is this? Your forum character? A level 1 character on a different server?
Why don't you post with your main character?
Why should I? Will that help you win an argument?
Why should I? Will that help you win an argument?
I'm not interested in winning this argument. I was there and actually saw the Beast Master pet tank with my own eyes. So I won this argument a long time ago and already Know I'm right. So this really isn't even an argument as far as I'm concerned.
I'm asking you this because it seems to me you are choosing to post on a doppelganger rather your real character. That always raises red flags for me. Why do you feel the need to hide when you come into the forums?
Daniel_Hatcher
10-11-2015, 11:30 PM
Except that it did happen. So you obviously don't know how enmity works as well as you think you do.
That or have just never seen what a Beast Master is capable of in the right hands. Because your comments demonstrate an incredible lack of knowledge in what they are capable of.
By the way, what is this? Your forum character? A level 1 character on a different server?
Why don't you post with your main character?
If this happened, which I'll accept it did for the sake of this comment, are you really saying there is a problem because someone, who must be a REALLY good BST done something the majority can not?
If this happened, which I'll accept it did for the sake of this comment, are you really saying there is a problem because someone, who must be a REALLY good BST done something the majority can not?
I am saying with the addition of those new pets the Beast Master became over-powered when compared to other jobs.
It wasn't a problem for me - in fact it was an asset since they were in my party and helped me get items I wanted. But I'm not going to let my own acquisition keep me from being honest about it and admitting the job was way out of balance.
bazookatooth
10-11-2015, 11:36 PM
Why do you feel the need to hide when you come into the forums?
Because people feel like they need to know.
Because people feel like they need to know.
Well just something to consider: if you are going to call people liars and suggest they have not seen things they say they have - the least you could do is show your real character's face on the forum instead of hiding behind a level 1 character.
Daniel_Hatcher
10-11-2015, 11:40 PM
I am saying with the addition of those new pets the Beast Master became over-powered when compared to other jobs.
It wasn't a problem for me - in fact it was an asset since I had them in my party. But I'm not going to let my own acquisition keep me from being honest about it.
But it ISN'T overpowered unless it's geared right, bandwagon users can not just level it to 99 get ilevel gear and win anything ( about all they can do is the very early BCNM's or Capacity Point parties,) you have to gear it properly to make it that way and surely that shouldn't be punished.
But it ISN'T overpowered unless it's geared right, bandwagon users can not just level it to 99 get ilevel gear and win anything ( about all they can do is the very early BCNM's or Capacity Point parties,) you have to gear it properly to make it that way and surely that shouldn't be punished.
The Beast Master may have been exceptionally played but he was not exceptionally well geared Daniel. All he had was skirmish gear - nothing dramatic. Where as I would have to spend probably a year of my life farming to get an Aegis before I would be able to go toe to toe with Titan as his pet did... and I am suppose to be one the game's tanks and don't have a fraction of the kind of damage his pet did.
I'm not sure exactly how many job points he had but it wasn't that many. I had more: and I'm a casual player.
So this idea that it was so very difficult for Beast Masters to achieve this kind of success just wasn't my experience.
bazookatooth
10-12-2015, 12:26 AM
The Beast Master may have been exceptionally played but he was not exceptionally well geared Daniel. All he had was skirmish gear - nothing dramatic. Where as I would have to spend probably a year of my life farming to get an Aegis before I would be able to go toe to toe with Titan as his pet did... and I am suppose to be one the game's tanks and don't have a fraction of the kind of damage his pet did.
I'm not sure exactly how many job points he had but it wasn't that many. I had more: and I'm a casual player.
So this idea that it was so very difficult for Beast Masters to achieve this kind of success just wasn't my experience.
You don't need to know anything about me and I don;t need to know anything about you to know that you were making that story up. It involves game mechanics. Not what server you are on or your AH history or your favorite color.
And FWIW, a set of DT- skirmish gear can cost more than an aegis.
machini
10-13-2015, 08:42 AM
As someone that also uses a mule for my character I do so from one reason, it's very easy to wind people up even if unintentional these people, on occasion, then harass you in game making the game very un-enjoyable so I'd rather they only have a mule name so I can still enjoy playing on my main account.
I will affirm this. I wish I had never posted anywhere what my main's name was, and people like Dale are part of the reason for that.
Also, as said above, he sounds like the reason he's getting outtanked is that his tanking set up is sucky. He's probably one of those PLDs who can't pull hate off of my DNC because they have no idea what they're doing.
Kensagaku
10-13-2015, 09:55 AM
...While I think that both sides are being a little unnecessarily aggressive and this is devolving from a debate to an argument quite quickly, I would like to clarify one point that Bazooka made. Yorium does in fact have a DT augment, so... >.>; That being said, Dale, if you didn't spend a lot getting a full set of DT from Duskslits either you've gotten extremely lucky or you have no value of money. As someone who has made sets out of Acro, Taeon, Helios, and a handful of weapons for various jobs, I know I've thrown away millions in dusk stones for bad luck augments. And this "bad luck" is fairly common for people.
That being said. A good BST pet -can- tank, but it requires a setup in which you have low-hate DDs and puts the pet at considerable risk. To do damage, you need to swap out of DT gear (though to be fair, you could make acc or attack / DA / DT gear but that only proves the point of well-geared players who have put a lot of money into the system), and your pet needs ways to maintain enmity. Damage alone doesn't provide much and the other DDs will build up their enmity quickly since BST pets have no unique ways of building enmity. BST has some methods to maintain this thanks to a variety of pet enmity gear, but in the end, they will bleed it almost as fast as any DD. I honestly think a PUP automaton can be a far better tank with the stuff they have built in combined with gear, along with enmity generation tools, and they still need special methods to build up their enmity faster.
Now, how about we tone down the aggressive nature on both sides and bring this back into a proper discussion before the mods lock this thread?
bazookatooth
10-13-2015, 11:27 AM
...While I think that both sides are being a little unnecessarily aggressive and this is devolving from a debate to an argument quite quickly, I would like to clarify one point that Bazooka made. Yorium does in fact have a DT augment, so... >.>; That being said, Dale, if you didn't spend a lot getting a full set of DT from Duskslits either you've gotten extremely lucky or you have no value of money. As someone who has made sets out of Acro, Taeon, Helios, and a handful of weapons for various jobs, I know I've thrown away millions in dusk stones for bad luck augments. And this "bad luck" is fairly common for people.
That being said. A good BST pet -can- tank, but it requires a setup in which you have low-hate DDs and puts the pet at considerable risk. To do damage, you need to swap out of DT gear (though to be fair, you could make acc or attack / DA / DT gear but that only proves the point of well-geared players who have put a lot of money into the system), and your pet needs ways to maintain enmity. Damage alone doesn't provide much and the other DDs will build up their enmity quickly since BST pets have no unique ways of building enmity. BST has some methods to maintain this thanks to a variety of pet enmity gear, but in the end, they will bleed it almost as fast as any DD. I honestly think a PUP automaton can be a far better tank with the stuff they have built in combined with gear, along with enmity generation tools, and they still need special methods to build up their enmity faster.
Now, how about we tone down the aggressive nature on both sides and bring this back into a proper discussion before the mods lock this thread?
Hmm... Your right. I guess I've just never seen anyone wearing it. Still 6-8mil a stack for +2 stones though.
Alhanelem
10-13-2015, 12:11 PM
As someone that also uses a mule for my character I do so from one reason, it's very easy to wind people up even if unintentional these people, on occasion, then harass you in game making the game very un-enjoyable so I'd rather they only have a mule name so I can still enjoy playing on my main account.
If you wind people up very easily...
Let me let you in on a secret. As you can likely glean from my post count and some threads I've participated in, I am rather infamous on these forums for certain things (which are really not entirely accurate, but that's a story for another day). Despite the ire I've sometimes drawn for my comments, I have NEVER been harassed ingame because of a comment I made on the forums.
You have nothing to fear unless you persistently and deliberately harass others yourself. There is basically no way that showing your actual character would subject you to abuse ingame. Even if it did, you could call a GM and get them suspended or banned for harassment.
That's not to say nobody's ever talked to me in game related to something I said on the forums. But I've never been harassed or bothered or attacked ingame for it. And For the most part, I actually like this, because it often results in discussion with forum lurkers who read but don't post on the forums. Often people are much more talkative ingame. Besides that, I have nothing to hide. Feel free to message my character ingame. If you decide to harass me, I'll simply use the ingame tools at my disposal to make it stop- blacklist and GM call.
Because of this, I have to agree that it is pretty lame to hide behind an internet alias that's already hiding behind another internet alias.
Onision
10-13-2015, 12:43 PM
If you wind people up very easily...
Let me let you in on a secret. As you can likely glean from my post count and some threads I've participated in, I am rather infamous on these forums for certain things (which are really not entirely accurate, but that's a story for another day). Despite the ire I've sometimes drawn for my comments, I have NEVER been harassed ingame because of a comment I made on the forums.
You have nothing to fear unless you persistently and deliberately harass others yourself. There is basically no way that showing your actual character would subject you to abuse ingame. Even if it did, you could call a GM and get them suspended or banned for harassment.
That's not to say nobody's ever talked to me in game related to something I said on the forums. But I've never been harassed or bothered or attacked ingame for it. And For the most part, I actually like this, because it often results in discussion with forum lurkers who read but don't post on the forums. Often people are much more talkative ingame. Besides that, I have nothing to hide. Feel free to message my character ingame. If you decide to harass me, I'll simply use the ingame tools at my disposal to make it stop- blacklist and GM call.
Because of this, I have to agree that it is pretty lame to hide behind an internet alias that's already hiding behind another internet alias.
You have never been harassed in-game therefore it's impossible for it to happen to anyone else. Falling back on the GM is useless and illogical when confrontation can be avoided in the first place. They have a personal preference to remain anonymous, leave it at that.
bazookatooth
10-13-2015, 12:57 PM
If you wind people up very easily...
Let me let you in on a secret. As you can likely glean from my post count and some threads I've participated in, I am rather infamous on these forums for certain things (which are really not entirely accurate, but that's a story for another day). Despite the ire I've sometimes drawn for my comments, I have NEVER been harassed ingame because of a comment I made on the forums.
You have nothing to fear unless you persistently and deliberately harass others yourself. There is basically no way that showing your actual character would subject you to abuse ingame. Even if it did, you could call a GM and get them suspended or banned for harassment.
That's not to say nobody's ever talked to me in game related to something I said on the forums. But I've never been harassed or bothered or attacked ingame for it. And For the most part, I actually like this, because it often results in discussion with forum lurkers who read but don't post on the forums. Often people are much more talkative ingame. Besides that, I have nothing to hide. Feel free to message my character ingame. If you decide to harass me, I'll simply use the ingame tools at my disposal to make it stop- blacklist and GM call.
Because of this, I have to agree that it is pretty lame to hide behind an internet alias that's already hiding behind another internet alias.
I don;t care about in game. I've had people from here follow me around on BG and FFXIAH and even G+. And there's really no benefit to showing my character. I've never had anyone bring it up in any context other than "Oh, I can't prove you wrong, so I will attack you for hiding your info!". People with friendly attitudes and good intentions never care about it.
Daniel_Hatcher
10-13-2015, 09:25 PM
If you wind people up very easily...
Let me let you in on a secret. As you can likely glean from my post count and some threads I've participated in, I am rather infamous on these forums for certain things (which are really not entirely accurate, but that's a story for another day). Despite the ire I've sometimes drawn for my comments, I have NEVER been harassed ingame because of a comment I made on the forums.
You have nothing to fear unless you persistently and deliberately harass others yourself. There is basically no way that showing your actual character would subject you to abuse ingame. Even if it did, you could call a GM and get them suspended or banned for harassment.
That's not to say nobody's ever talked to me in game related to something I said on the forums. But I've never been harassed or bothered or attacked ingame for it. And For the most part, I actually like this, because it often results in discussion with forum lurkers who read but don't post on the forums. Often people are much more talkative ingame. Besides that, I have nothing to hide. Feel free to message my character ingame. If you decide to harass me, I'll simply use the ingame tools at my disposal to make it stop- blacklist and GM call.
Because of this, I have to agree that it is pretty lame to hide behind an internet alias that's already hiding behind another internet alias.
That's good to hear, however, I have been harassed in game (albeit not this one) due to comments I've made on forums.
And for the people like Bazookatooth who get harassed outside because of a game, what then do you do?
It's nothing to do with hiding anything it's more a case of removing the bother of being hassled when there is no real reason for anyone to know your character account in the first place and should have just been used to confirm your right to access the forum. As bazookatooth said, you'll notice how the only people commenting on it are the ones currently having a heated debate with you.
Alhanelem
10-14-2015, 12:23 AM
There is a benefit where it can lead to civil discussion. "hey, I saw your post on the forums! I don't post there but I thought I should let you know I really liked your comment about adding michael jackson to the game."
I can't say there's zero risk of hassle, but I can tell you nearly everyone tends to behave better ingame than they would on the forums. If they do something stupid from the forums, they just get banned from the forums. People are more worried about getting banned from the game, so the behavior standard is higher.
You have never been harassed in-game therefore it's impossible for it to happen to anyone else. Falling back on the GM is useless and illogical when confrontation can be avoided in the first place. They have a personal preference to remain anonymous, leave it at that. No, I'm not saying I've never been harassed ingame, I'm saying i've never been harassed ingame because of posting on the forums. I don't understand why people are worried about being harassed in an online game, because it is much, much easier to deal with in the game than it is in person. you just /blacklist Jerkface, and you never have to deal with them again. If they do something stupid like follow you around or something because they have no life, you call a GM and get them suspended.
One of the biggest problems for me with people posting behind a mule is I have no way to know (for instance) if they actually have / play the job they're making comments on. e.g. people who have no experience playing a job declaring it's overpowered for example. If you can see that's not their main class then you know you don't have to take them as seriously. Additionally, if you hide behind a mule, people might just assume you're talking out your behind when you're really not.
If people didn't have to subscribe to the game to make an account and post on these forums, I could sort of understand it, because then every internet troll could come in here and this place would be much more toxic. But the forums are only a subset of the playerbase.
Finally, With updates for the game winding down, I see a lot more camaraderie with the playerbase. People are helping each other out more and being nicer because they don't want to make someone else quit and shrink the population. If you come clean with your main, you really shouldn't have anything to worry about. I think you're getting concerned about something that pretty much isn't going to happen, but that's your choice.
And there's really no benefit to showing my character. I've never had anyone bring it up in any context other than "Oh, I can't prove you wrong, so I will attack you for hiding your info!" The thing is, if you weren't hiding your info, they couldn't have that discussion >.> Being honest with who you are and having nothing to hide gives your argument more weight vs. the more anonymous person saying the same thing. There is a much greater risk in being a jerkwad when people know who you are, so it is less likely to happen. And as I've said above, I've had positive conversations with others from posting on the forums (such as someone who doesn't post asking follow up questions about a job I play because they were seeking advice, for instance.)
Is it 100% risk free? No, nothing ever is. But there are benefits and the risk is miniscule.
There is a benefit where it can lead to civil discussion. "hey, I saw your post on the forums! I don't post there but I thought I should let you know I really liked your comment about adding michael jackson to the game."
I can't say there's zero risk of hassle, but I can tell you nearly everyone tends to behave better ingame than they would on the forums. If they do something stupid from the forums, they just get banned from the forums. People are more worried about getting banned from the game, so the behavior standard is higher.
No, I'm not saying I've never been harassed ingame, I'm saying i've never been harassed ingame because of posting on the forums. I don't understand why people are worried about being harassed in an online game, because it is much, much easier to deal with in the game than it is in person. you just /blacklist Jerkface, and you never have to deal with them again. If they do something stupid like follow you around or something because they have no life, you call a GM and get them suspended.
One of the biggest problems for me with people posting behind a mule is I have no way to know (for instance) if they actually have / play the job they're making comments on. e.g. people who have no experience playing a job declaring it's overpowered for example. If you can see that's not their main class then you know you don't have to take them as seriously. Additionally, if you hide behind a mule, people might just assume you're talking out your behind when you're really not.
If people didn't have to subscribe to the game to make an account and post on these forums, I could sort of understand it, because then every internet troll could come in here and this place would be much more toxic. But the forums are only a subset of the playerbase.
Finally, With updates for the game winding down, I see a lot more camaraderie with the playerbase. People are helping each other out more and being nicer because they don't want to make someone else quit and shrink the population. If you come clean with your main, you really shouldn't have anything to worry about. I think you're getting concerned about something that pretty much isn't going to happen, but that's your choice.
The thing is, if you weren't hiding your info, they couldn't have that discussion >.> Being honest with who you are and having nothing to hide gives your argument more weight vs. the more anonymous person saying the same thing. There is a much greater risk in being a jerkwad when people know who you are, so it is less likely to happen. And as I've said above, I've had positive conversations with others from posting on the forums (such as someone who doesn't post asking follow up questions about a job I play because they were seeking advice, for instance.)
Is it 100% risk free? No, nothing ever is. But there are benefits and the risk is miniscule.
That is why people who like to harass others on forums typically create level 1 troll characters to do it with. So they can't be held to account by other players.
So I agree with you about this.
We should all have to post on our main characters. It would definitely prompt a more civil discussion... or at the very least one with a lot less b.S.
The Beast Master may have been exceptionally played but he was not exceptionally well geared Daniel. All he had was skirmish gear
Ok you just lost all credibility. Skirmish gear is quite often BIS for pet focussed beasts. So you basically just have no idea that people spend hundreds of millions to be what you call "not exceptionally geared"
Ok you just lost all credibility. Skirmish gear is quite often BIS for pet focussed beasts. So you basically just have no idea that people spend hundreds of millions to be what you call "not exceptionally geared"
What does BIS mean?
And no: I haven't lost all credibility. I know the Beast Master and he did not spend hundreds of millions of Gil on it. That is a gross exaggeration. I have made several skirmish sets myself - they did not cost me hundreds of millions of gil to make either.
Skirmish gear is pretty accessible and does not equal exceptionally well-geared. At least not in my mind.
Stones can be farmed - even soloed by good Beast Masters. So this idea that building a good skirmish set is so terribly difficult to do and constitutes some rare and exceptional combination of gear is just poppycock. Everyone and their mother has good skirmish sets these days.
BIS = Best in Slot
And just cause you're either satisfied with mediocre augments or got lucky and got the augments you wanted or have cheap augments (most melee stones are WAY cheaper than pet or magic stones) doesn't mean others are in the same situation.
I spent more than 20 million in stones trying to get a TP bonus axe and didn't get a single TP bonus augment. Not one.
Maybe you're Mr. Lucky who gets the augment he wants after 1 stone or w/e but for other people you can't assume from looking at their skirmish gear how much they have spent on it.
Nevermind that not all augments are created equal. It's way easier and cheaper to get player MAB than pet: MAB on Taeon for example. Way easier and cheaper to get player TRIPLE ATTACK than it is to get pet double attack. Way easier and cheaper to get anything other than pet damage taken or haste etc etc.
BIS = Best in Slot
And just cause you're either satisfied with mediocre augments or got lucky and got the augments you wanted or have cheap augments (most melee stones are WAY cheaper than pet or magic stones) doesn't mean others are in the same situation.
I spent more than 20 million in stones trying to get a TP bonus axe and didn't get a single TP bonus augment. Not one.
Maybe you're Mr. Lucky who gets the augment he wants after 1 stone or w/e but for other people you can't assume from looking at their skirmish gear how much they have spent on it.
Nevermind that not all augments are created equal. It's way easier and cheaper to get player MAB than pet: MAB on Taeon for example. Way easier and cheaper to get player TRIPLE ATTACK than it is to get pet double attack. Way easier and cheaper to get anything other than pet damage taken or haste etc etc.
20 million is still no where near the 100s of millions it would take to buy an upgraded Aegis.
So again: even in your example of bad luck it still doesn't take away from my credibility in in the context I was using.
Can people spend another 20,30 million trying to get 1% more -DT for their pets? Sure. But again: that still doesn't mean it's exceptionally difficult to create a good skirmish set. Because it's not.
This isn't to mention it's not that hard to farm stones either. Skirmish gear is pretty accessible - even to the average player. I stand by that.
detlef
10-14-2015, 03:48 AM
As I recall there were issues where "mule" accounts tended to be a trollier due to the additional anonymity. Mods fixed it by just banning everybody.
Aside from that, if Alhanelem of all people can say that he's never been harassed in-game because of his forum persona, I think that's some pretty good evidence against the anonymity argument.
bazookatooth
10-14-2015, 04:37 AM
As I recall there were issues where "mule" accounts tended to be a trollier due to the additional anonymity. Mods fixed it by just banning everybody.
Aside from that, if Alhanelem of all people can say that he's never been harassed in-game because of his forum persona, I think that's some pretty good evidence against the anonymity argument.
Making this a discussion about personal information rather than the actual topic is the very definition of trolling...
Malthar
10-14-2015, 04:42 AM
You guys realize this is the way to get a thread locked, right?
Skirmish gear is pretty accessible - even to the average player. I stand by that.
No one said it was hard to get skirmish base gear - but yeah it is harder to get good pet augments than melee augments.
At any rate, I've spent waaaaaaaaaaaay less gil on my BLU and it's way better than my BST so... I don't know what your point is? Other than that you don't know what good BST gear looks like or how much it costs?
And I am not alone I know other people who have spent similar amounts to not get ANY TP augment on their axes... Who knows how much it would cost to get one? I don't know because I don't have any more stones to spend.
And being able to farm them is irrelevant - they cost the same amount of gil because you're foregoing the income you could have derived from them. Nevermind that unlike for melees you can't just use one of 3 stones to get the aug you want on a bunch of your gear - it's orb only and I don't see them drop almost ever.
Also soloing skirmish on BST isn't advisable since the mobs will just eat your pet making you an utterly gimp sorta war with no JAs... again destroying your point... if you had one.
Ataraxia
10-14-2015, 08:09 AM
Olor currently right now Dusk Orb are cheap and people with account have many mule they can get from Login points.
Dale doesn't know anything when skirmish was new and on the rise. Each Dusk Orb and Duskslit was selling for over 1 million up to 1.5M. When they didn't add +2 item to moogle login points these item are expensive and now it's free if you have many mule.
Many hardcore BST aim for perfection which they focus on Pet Attack +25, Pet Accuracy +25, Pet Haste+5, Pet magic accuracy, Pet Magic Attack and Pet Damage Taken -4 "100+ million worth of gils spent or more.
There is a link of someone who actually play BST to the fullest and have many full set of many augment armors for PET. For most people that hate BST might wanna check that link so you understand other people point of view.
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/45830/killer-instinct-the-beastmaster-compendium/
Olor currently right now Dusk Orb are cheap and people with account have many mule they can get from Login points.
I used my mules' stones on my axe ; ;
Anyway I don't really agree that nearly 3 million for a stack of dusk orbs (on my server) are "cheap"
Cheaper than they were at the beginning? Sure. Cheap Cheap? No. Not cheap.
If I could pay 3 million and get even an augment sort of in the ballpark of what I want that would be cool but... I am not spending any more on BST now that I can't even solo outdated stuff on it as easy as I can do it on BLU
Elexia
10-14-2015, 11:10 PM
No one said it was hard to get skirmish base gear - but yeah it is harder to get good pet augments than melee augments.
At any rate, I've spent waaaaaaaaaaaay less gil on my BLU and it's way better than my BST so...
Doubtful. I've been helping a recently returning pre Job Point era Blue Mage get caught up and the JP BSTs we run with are still far superior. Don't make it sound like it's so black & white, absolutely nothing was touched on BST that severely weakened it, as in there's no reports or data posted by anyone, not even SE that shows they nerfed all of the pets, suddenly nerfed every BST WS and nerfed every BST ability.
That is why people who like to harass others on forums typically create level 1 troll characters to do it with. So they can't be held to account by other players.
So I agree with you about this.
We should all have to post on our main characters. It would definitely prompt a more civil discussion... or at the very least one with a lot less b.S.
It's not even for privacy sake or anything, as said they don't want to be confronted in game because they know they start BS with people on the forums and too scared to own up to it.
For what it's worth I know tons of people find my posts on here annoying and no one has ever given me any guff for it in game. Perhaps someone refuses to party with me or something or doesn't answer my shouts - that, I don't know, can't know etc - but that's people's choice. I would hope that folks wouldn't let opinions on game mechanics get in the way of playing the game with others, but if folks are really bothered by it, that's their right.
Doubtful. I've been helping a recently returning pre Job Point era Blue Mage get caught up and the JP BSTs we run with are still far superior. Don't make it sound like it's so black & white, absolutely nothing was touched on BST that severely weakened it, as in there's no reports or data posted by anyone, not even SE that shows they nerfed all of the pets, suddenly nerfed every BST WS and nerfed every BST ability.
Well yeah, a BST with capped JP and super gear is better than a super gimp blu, sure. My BST has a few JP, my BLU has less - but I've spent way less on gear for BLU and overall for most things it's better. And what I used BST for was soloing not party DDing so the distance nerf is a HUGE NERF - since the only advantage it had over BLU was the safety. Now BLU is safer on any older content that can be stunned (and a lot more besides) which is most of it, and it does more damage to boot.
(Native dual wield, self haste 2, bloody MIGHTY GUARD, erasega, party stoneskin, self cures, etc, AND STUNS and better Weaponskills not on gimpy timers... yeah it's better...)
I guess in abyssea if I just wanted to watch my pet slowly take 2 hours to melee down an NM it could be safer? I dunno, just considering it makes my eyes bleed with boredom.
BST is now mostly useless for soloing which is what most people who have played BST forever used it for. Heck, I can't even issue commands from the back end of a mob anymore - have to stand in it's face and eat nasty moves now. The only advantage BST had is gone. It's a crummier DD that does crummier damage than any other straight DD so why would I use it? If I just wanted to be a straight damage dealer I'd level SAM - it's way better than BST in every way.
I'd rather they did a damage nerf than the distance nerf. The distance nerf ruined BST for me. A damage nerf - heck, I was playing BST before they buffed pet WS so I am sure I'd still be playing if they took the damage down a notch. The distance nerf punished long time BSTs, not bandwagoners.
Daniel_Hatcher
10-15-2015, 02:37 AM
It's not even for privacy sake or anything, as said they don't want to be confronted in game because they know they start BS with people on the forums and too scared to own up to it.
That's not what was said at all, being harassed is not "owning up" to anything, I have no problems with debating my opinions on something, but I have no interest in being called all the names under the sun while I play my game because of my opinion, please understand the difference.
bazookatooth
10-15-2015, 03:37 AM
Doubtful. I've been helping a recently returning pre Job Point era Blue Mage get caught up and the JP BSTs we run with are still far superior. Don't make it sound like it's so black & white, absolutely nothing was touched on BST that severely weakened it, as in there's no reports or data posted by anyone, not even SE that shows they nerfed all of the pets, suddenly nerfed every BST WS and nerfed every BST ability.
BLU was already a better damage dealer. They didn't have to touch anything.
It's not even for privacy sake or anything, as said they don't want to be confronted in game because they know they start BS with people on the forums and too scared to own up to it.
What exactly do I have to be "Scared" of?
I'd rather they did a damage nerf than the distance nerf. The distance nerf ruined BST for me. A damage nerf - heck, I was playing BST before they buffed pet WS so I am sure I'd still be playing if they took the damage down a notch. The distance nerf punished long time BSTs, not bandwagoners.
This is the key. Nothing needed adjustment with job abilities, an adjustment to the pet aoe damage would have made people happy, bandwagons change jobs and left long time BST mains with the core functionality we've always had and SE needs to give back.
SE please, do this.
machini
10-15-2015, 04:27 AM
Dale, people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. I prefer anonymity because having someone spend an entire week, hopping from one mule to another, to send you messages about exactly what kind of horrific things they want to do to you, along with strings of expletives, and have the GMs do absolutely nothing about it, is not enjoyable. Unfortunately, I can't get that because, foolish person I am, I decided to use my main's name for stuff.
You have made it obvious time and time again your hatred of BST is not based in facts. You apparently know nothing about BST gear, how BST works, or a host of related matters. And your intense desire to what to know who people are leaves me thinking that you want to know that simply so you can track them down and harass them via other means.
This thread has devolved from arguments about the relative merits of BST, and how it compares to other jobs, to a single person demanding personal information about others. A person who has repeatedly been rebuked and corrected, and that sort of behavior almost always means exactly one thing: "I cannot win this argument, so I want to harass you where I won't get banned for it."
Malthar
10-15-2015, 11:26 AM
What I can't believe is that you guys still respond to Dale.
Stompa
10-15-2015, 03:02 PM
I don't think Dale has said anything especially contentious, and I have often enjoyed reading his many posts about PLD, a job he clearly cares about deeply.
I think this argument is just a by-product and clear sign of the depth of feeling that people have about the BST nerf. People are not just complaining about the nerf, they are genuinely upset and hurt about how it has made their job less enjoyable.
BST isn't really gimped, but it is less fun to play and more of a headache to play usefully. People are very upset about this, and it is hard to remain calm when you are very upset. Hopefully SE will see that many BST players are genuinely hurt by this update, it has caused more harm than good, and they will rectify it. In the meantime I don't think that fighting with other FFXI Fans is going to achieve anything, except causing upset to everyone. We all have our opinions and perspectives, and we are all FFXI Fans first, specific jobs second.
I don't think Dale has said anything especially contentious, and I have often enjoyed reading his many posts about PLD, a job he clearly cares about deeply.
I think this argument is just a by-product and clear sign of the depth of feeling that people have about the BST nerf. People are not just complaining about the nerf, they are genuinely upset and hurt about how it has made their job less enjoyable.
BST isn't really gimped, but it is less fun to play and more of a headache to play usefully. People are very upset about this, and it is hard to remain calm when you are very upset. Hopefully SE will see that many BST players are genuinely hurt by this update, it has caused more harm than good, and they will rectify it. In the meantime I don't think that fighting with other FFXI Fans is going to achieve anything, except causing upset to everyone. We all have our opinions and perspectives, and we are all FFXI Fans first, specific jobs second.
Well stated Stompa.
I have been BST main for most of my XI life and SE ruining the functionality of BST has taken the fun out of playing the job. It doesn't function correctly and have had to shelve my main out of frustration.
I continue to hope SE will restore BST to how it was before the Nerf and lower the aoe-dmg of jugs instead. Like the sentiment previously noted by Olor, I was BST main before jugpets had powerful damage and it wont dissuade me from playing the job if it still didn't have powerful damage aoe jugs now. It's unfortunate that I can get decent magic burst damage from trusts while playing another job (not going to mention it in fear SE will ruin another job) and out damage what I was seeing on BST, but I digress. BST needs repaired.
As for the conflict in the thread, I wish people would just 'report' offensive posts rather than reply to them. Community rep's obviously read these threads but have left this one alone like the plague. I'm hoping Camate will reply on this thread and let BST's know things are going back how they were while they evaluate a better adjustment if one is needed. Given the far-better setups for the events that lead to the complaints on BST being done faster/better on other jobs with with far more damage and MB'ing making said events laughable (and yet still requires specific jobs or bust - removing BST from the shouts only changed what limited-jobs are shouted for, it didn't magically open up to all jobs being viable), it would be better to just leave BST as it was before the nerf and hope SE doesn't just nerf anything with high damage. Could you imagine if SE "adjusted" damage-cap for each single action to 10k dmg? ohnoes my MB doesn't do 99999 dmg anymore.... point made.
machini
10-15-2015, 06:29 PM
Stompa, I'd like to point out that I don't even play BST and I don't like the nerf.
Malthar
10-15-2015, 10:01 PM
I don't even log in anymore and am playing another game. That's how much it upset me by SE taking the fUn factor out of my main.
I don't even log in anymore and am playing another game. That's how much it upset me by SE taking the fUn factor out of my main.
This. I did log in to get a new player started last night but... it really makes me sad to play now.
Faithful
10-16-2015, 03:55 AM
I deactivated my account. If this mess gets resolved I'll come back but otherwise I'm just gonna move on, and It wont be to ff14.
I deactivated my account. If this mess gets resolved I'll come back but otherwise I'm just gonna move on, and It wont be to ff14.
I understand this. If it doesn't change soon I will be in the same boat. I'm basically only staying subbed at this point to get the last of the new trusts before the end of content.
Stompa
10-16-2015, 07:38 PM
My happiest memories of FFXI were the times when I helped players farm coffer keys, artifact, or I helped them take down a strong monster that dropped the item they really wanted. When I heard those players being so happy afterwards, and showing off their artifact etc. it made my heart fill with joy, and fly around like a drunk pigeon.
That is why this BST situation is really making my heart heavy. I can see these players are not just fronting or complaining for the sake of it, these players are really unhappy. Its like the opposite of what I spent 90% of my FFXI play-time trying to achieve, which was Happy Players. It really saddens me to see players being so unhappy, and I hope SE will consider nerfing BST in a different way, like slight lowering of damage or something. Nobody wants to see BST players being this unhappy, or feeling unable to give pet treats to their beloved animals.
Ataraxia
10-17-2015, 03:49 AM
My happiest memories of FFXI were the times when I helped players farm coffer keys, artifact, or I helped them take down a strong monster that dropped the item they really wanted. When I heard those players being so happy afterwards, and showing off their artifact etc. it made my heart fill with joy, and fly around like a drunk pigeon.
That is why this BST situation is really making my heart heavy. I can see these players are not just fronting or complaining for the sake of it, these players are really unhappy. Its like the opposite of what I spent 90% of my FFXI play-time trying to achieve, which was Happy Players. It really saddens me to see players being so unhappy, and I hope SE will consider nerfing BST in a different way, like slight lowering of damage or something. Nobody wants to see BST players being this unhappy, or feeling unable to give pet treats to their beloved animals.
Finally, A Taru that make sense. Now it's your turn Akihiko Matsui. We know you're a Taru too and you been a really bad Taru so make everyone happy and give BST their range back.
Secondplanet
10-17-2015, 07:45 AM
Since we're all on this amazing bandwagon of wanting everything for our jobs, I think summoner needs a range attack option to get tp, Some summoners have spent a great deal of money getting weapons that have great weaponskills on them that we can never use. Now with the extension of our range SE has told us we have no place close to the monsters. This isn't fair to us as we're use to fighting along side out pets and using such abilities to get back mp and even enhance our avatars.
I think an easy fix is to upgrade all of summoners armor to heavy armor so we can actually take a hit and with skill know not to run up to the monster when they're not doing a large AoE attack.
Stompa
10-17-2015, 07:58 AM
Finally, A Taru that make sense. Now it's your turn Akihiko Matsui. We know you're a Taru too and you been a really bad Taru so make everyone happy and give BST their range back.
I hope the Action Group For Rights Of Vertically-Challenged Persons doesn't see this post about Tarutarus!
But seriously, earlier on in this debate, I was saying that BST was always about risk / danger with charm etc. and that is true, so I thought that maybe this update would add a danger element which would help to rebalance BST a bit after the Stout Servant / Mulsum turbo-boost, siege-engine factor.
But reading all the posts, its clearly upset people so very much that it can't be right. People are saying they would accept a lowering of damage, or tweaking things somehow, but not if it radically changes the whole playstyle that people enjoy. I can totally see their point.
So I have edged across the aisle on this subject, and think there should be a different rebalancing system, that will be okay with those who consider the job OP, and still allow BST to play the job with the strategies they enjoy and have already built gear-sets around.
Malthar
10-17-2015, 08:10 AM
I have already suggested a rebalancing paradigm that would fit perfectly, but SE seems to have glossed over it.
Vary pet damage with master distance.
Since we're all on this amazing bandwagon of wanting everything for our jobs
Lol when SE makes you stand in silence/amnesia aura range to be able to use your ja's, I'm sure lots of people will support your efforts to have it fixed.
We're not asking for anything special, we just don't like our mains broken either. It's not hard to understand there are better options than breaking our playstyle.
Lowering pet-aoe dmg would have cleared the queue of bandwagoners. Even if SE puts things back where they belong, BST won't be the main job asked for now that people realized and are currently using far stronger and overpowered setups than before our Nerf BST could potentially have been.
Secondplanet
10-17-2015, 03:05 PM
Lol when SE makes you stand in silence/amnesia aura range to be able to use your ja's, I'm sure lots of people will support your efforts to have it fixed.
We're not asking for anything special, we just don't like our mains broken either. It's not hard to understand there are better options than breaking our playstyle.
Lowering pet-aoe dmg would have cleared the queue of bandwagoners. Even if SE puts things back where they belong, BST won't be the main job asked for now that people realized and are currently using far stronger and overpowered setups than before our Nerf BST could potentially have been.
many forget that summoner had a huge setback when our 2hr Alexander was downgraded for many events to bring balance to the game. It was the only things summoners were used for but at the same time we had for once a place in endgame events. It wasn't the fact they gimped the ability so bad but to throw it in our faces that you needed 600 summoning magic just to get the full 60seconds out of it when the highest at the time i think was 517 was a total insult to us. But the one good thing that came out of it was it got rid of the bandwagoners, thats all i see with this is that it will kill off those who didn't know the job and allow those who know what they're doing to continue on with very little change to things.
Fynlar
10-17-2015, 03:11 PM
many forget that summoner had a huge setback when our 2hr Alexander was downgraded for many events to bring balance to the game. It was the only things summoners were used for but at the same time we had for once a place in endgame events. It wasn't the fact they gimped the ability so bad but to throw it in our faces that you needed 600 summoning magic just to get the full 60seconds out of it when the highest at the time i think was 517 was a total insult to us.Still didn't stop people from using SMNs though
All it did was maybe make them have to bring more SMNs
Embrava took a much bigger nerf than PD did, IMO.
it got rid of the bandwagoners, thats all i see with this is that it will kill off those who didn't know the job and allow those who know what they're doing to continue on with very little change to things.
You're wrong tho. Obviously a lot of long-time BST main have been posting on this and the other threads discussing this. This nerf isn't killing off those who don't know the job, its ruining the game for any real BST, like myself, that are not enjoying what SE has done to a job we love.
As if that were not bad enough, the nerf does not work effectively and SE has not redesigned our gear to 'function' with a no-distance setup.
I do not want SE to waste development time on re-engineering BST gear so when our pet has ACC/ATK/PDT/MDT/etc that we have it at the same time, when they could lower the aoe-dmg, making bandwagoner's go toward other jobs... and letting the people that love BST be able to play it as we have for over a decade.
I don't care if they remove pet aoe damage completely making us fight one target a time - I just want the job to work again. When I press a macro and I'm standing behind a mob that uses conial charm, my pet should still be able to be rewarded and right now that's not the case. The continued disillusion that this is an issue of wanting to be overpowered or wanting more than we deserve is shortsighted and naive. SE needs to restore BST back to an enjoyable playable job again before they stop doing major updates - every job should be enjoyable to their respective playerbase, no job should be treated this disrespectfully.
I work hard in most of my posts to avoid discussing where specifically other jobs are overpowered - right now SMN is very obscenely overpowered and I don't want it nerfed either because I don't want any job ruined at this stage of the game, period.
machini
10-18-2015, 08:47 PM
Jile, this is the problem: you're arguing with people who don't play BST, don't understand how it works, and think this is all about damage output.
Jile, this is the problem: you're arguing with people who don't play BST, don't understand how it works, and think this is all about damage output.
You're right, I know. I keep hoping that throwing logic out enough times will help.
Secondplanet
10-19-2015, 01:35 AM
Jile, this is the problem: you're arguing with people who don't play BST, don't understand how it works, and think this is all about damage output.
i've played bst and it wasn't my cup of tea, i understand fully well its not about damage output but you're a heavy armor class job that wants to be backline job for safety, why doesn't all other DD jobs start arguing about how fast they die from AoE's like everyone else. The game has become aimed at range jobs doing damage at a safe distance while the only job (pld) that has the -pdt -mdt is the only one able to take the damage. This argument has long since lost its sympathy from players as you're not the only ones whos jobs have become useless to the high artificial difficulty that SE has forced into the game.
bazookatooth
10-19-2015, 01:59 AM
i've played bst and it wasn't my cup of tea, i understand fully well its not about damage output but you're a heavy armor class job that wants to be backline job for safety, why doesn't all other DD jobs start arguing about how fast they die from AoE's like everyone else. The game has become aimed at range jobs doing damage at a safe distance while the only job (pld) that has the -pdt -mdt is the only one able to take the damage. This argument has long since lost its sympathy from players as you're not the only ones whos jobs have become useless to the high artificial difficulty that SE has forced into the game.
I don't think it has lost sympathy. I think most people would rather see other DD jobs be more useful than see this job be less useful. Messing with BST doesn't fix anyone's problems and most people are smart enough to see that.
i've played bst and it wasn't my cup of tea
I find it ironic then that you play a job that is setup to play precisely how we used to be although you do have an endless supply of pets tied to an almost non-existent recast timer vs our call-pet timers and you can kite and run away letting your pet auto-attack while never establishing additional enmity yourself, when needed, not to mention your damage per second for a properly geared SMN matches and can surpass BST dps yet you keep advocating negativity toward BST.
Pot calling the kettle black.
BST is a ranged-dmg job, like SMN. We are not geared to be effective when our pets are effective, we have no business being near the mob when we're having our pets hit unless SE redesigns our gear to match this new expectation of BST contributing toward a fight rather than wasting everyone's time being an MP sink just to be engaged and add our sub-par melee dmg in, so we can be close enough to our pet's to contribute dmg.
I feel like no matter how many times we repeat ourselves, you're not going to understand why this isn't about us trying to get-one-over on the system, we have been working within the confines of the design of the system since day one - now that SE adjusts our entire gameplay, without adjusting our gear to match this new expectation, the job is supremely less effective and absolutely unwelcome by the people SE should be listening to, the people 'paying' to play BST for the last decade.
Zeargi
10-19-2015, 08:27 AM
i've played bst and it wasn't my cup of tea, i understand fully well its not about damage output but you're a heavy armor class job that wants to be backline job for safety, why doesn't all other DD jobs start arguing about how fast they die from AoE's like everyone else. The game has become aimed at range jobs doing damage at a safe distance while the only job (pld) that has the -pdt -mdt is the only one able to take the damage. This argument has long since lost its sympathy from players as you're not the only ones whos jobs have become useless to the high artificial difficulty that SE has forced into the game.
Just gonna chime in. BST doesn't wear heavy armor. It's a Medium Class, the same as THF, MNK or DNC.
Again, I can't seem to stress this enough, BST isn't the only one playing it safe. SAM does and is STILL doing, and they have better overall Job Traits than BST. 85% of BSTs' Job Traits are Killer Traits or Pet Related ones. Resist Amnesia, Resist Slow, and Fencer, Those are the things that BST has to work with. Outside of trash mobs in Delve, you aren't going to use MOST of the Killer Skills. and Fencer is useless because there aren't any shields the really compliment BST and with an E rank, the shield blocking rate is crap. Beatific Shield +1, Deliverance +1, Evalach +1, Forfend +1... THESE are the only 119 Shields that BST can use. -25% MDT, 2x PDT-4%, and a DT-4%... If you want to get on the lower end, the Matamata Shield gives a -8% PDT. It's not fair to penalize the job for the lack of gear, abilities, and traits other jobs get.
THF gets Triple Attack, Sneak Attack, Bully, Feint
MNK gets Counter, Martial Arts, Kick Attack, Formless Strike
DNC has Flourishes and No Step Rising
This is about on par with people inviting SMNs back in the day to be gimped healers for parties. BST has ALWAYS been about playing the distances and only fighting when it needs to, it's not some surprise last minute thing that just now started showing up. Grab a pet, Leave it when it's about to die, tame and grab the next one, sic/snarl, Repeat.
I will keep saying it over and over: It's not the job, it's the content. Give BSTs better Gear, JA, and Traits to keep them alive and truly functional as a DD Class and let it so their pets can equally function. SMN gets away with focusing on their Pet, and that works for a Mage job, but that's not the same for BST.
Shinun
10-19-2015, 10:13 AM
Just gonna chime in. BST doesn't wear heavy armor. It's a Medium Class, the same as THF, MNK or DNC.
Again, I can't seem to stress this enough, BST isn't the only one playing it safe. SAM does and is STILL doing, and they have better overall Job Traits than BST. 85% of BSTs' Job Traits are Killer Traits or Pet Related ones. Resist Amnesia, Resist Slow, and Fencer, Those are the things that BST has to work with. Outside of trash mobs in Delve, you aren't going to use MOST of the Killer Skills. and Fencer is useless because these aren't an shields the really compliment BST and with an E rank, the shield blocking rate is crap. Beatific Shield +1, Deliverance +1, Evalach +1, Forfend +1... THESE are the only 119 Shields that BST can use. -25% MDT, 2x PDT-4%, and a DT-4%... If you want to get on the lower end, the Matamata Shield gives a -8% PDT. It's not fair to penalize the job for the lack of gear, abilities, and traits other jobs get.
THF gets Triple Attack, Sneak Attack, Bully, Feint
MNK gets Counter, Martial Arts, Kick Attack, Formless Strike
DNC has Flourishes and No Step Rising
This is about on par with people inviting SMNs back in the day to be gimped healers for parties. BST has ALWAYS been about playing the distances and only fighting when it needs to, it's not some surprise last minute thing that just now started showing up. Grab a pet, Leave it when it's about to die, tame and grab the next one, sic/snarl, Repeat.
I will keep saying it over and over: It's not the job, it's the content. Give BSTs better Gear, JA, and Traits to keep them alive and truly functional as a DD Class and let it so their pets can equally function. SMN gets away with focusing on their Pet, and that works for a Mage job, but that's not the same for BST.
BST is heavy armor class just look at Tartarus Platemail as an example
Zeargi
10-19-2015, 10:34 AM
BST is heavy armor class just look at Tartarus Platemail as an example
1 armor does not a heavy make. The heavy classes are: PLD, DRK, SAM, DRG, WAR
While BST does get a few 'heavy armors', more of it's armor sets come from the Medium classes. You can use Dynamis as an example as well, The ones listed above are proc.ed by WS because they have high HP and DEF. While MNK, BST, THF, RNG, etc are JAs :3
Jopa-Sopa
10-19-2015, 10:56 AM
It's sort of in-between. BST has been grouped with heavy (both Delve sets, lol Ebon sets) and medium (Salvage, add-on final rewards). With the sphere bodies, it gets both the heavy and medium ones, much like how PUP gets medium and light sphere bodies.
If we had to list the jobs by armor class it would probably look something like
WAR/PLD/DRK
DRG
SAM
BST
NIN
THF/RNG/COR/DNC/RUN
MNK
BLU
PUP
RDM
BRD
WHM/BLM/SMN/SCH/GEO
Good point about the Dynamis procs. From what I can tell, they generally considered BST heavy during original/RotZ era (Adaberk), then medium in CoP through Lv99, and now they're more often heavy in iLv era.
bazookatooth
10-19-2015, 01:29 PM
This is a moot point as a large amount of damage reduction comes from gear, abilities and / or spells that BST will not be using a large portion of the time (if at all) due to the need to keep the pet alive and perform ready moves.
BST is a ranged-dmg job, like SMN. We are not geared to be effective when our pets are effective, we have no business being near the mob when we're having our pets hit unless SE redesigns our gear to match this new expectation of BST contributing toward a fight rather than wasting everyone's time being an MP sink just to be engaged and add our sub-par melee dmg in, so we can be close enough to our pet's to contribute dmg.
I feel like no matter how many times we repeat ourselves, you're not going to understand why this isn't about us trying to get-one-over on the system, we have been working within the confines of the design of the system since day one - now that SE adjusts our entire gameplay, without adjusting our gear to match this new expectation, the job is supremely less effective and absolutely unwelcome by the people SE should be listening to, the people 'paying' to play BST for the last decade.
Seriously... who cares what the armor LOOKS LIKE. It might as well be a wet paper bag for all the difference it makes to actual damage taken.
Alhanelem
10-21-2015, 04:17 AM
BST is a ranged-dmg job, like SMN.Beast WAS a ranged-dmg job, like SMN.
*ducks*
Of course, it should be, for the exact reasons you stated. If you didn't have to give up pet performance to not whiff up a storm while meleeing against high level enemies, perhaps more people would do it.
(this change might have been more tolerable if they also made changes to make the approach they're forcing on BSTs more viable)
(this change might have been more tolerable if they also made changes to make the approach they're forcing on BSTs more viable)
This, for sure.
Zeargi
10-21-2015, 10:53 PM
To be honest, these are probably some of the things that need to happen to do make this a thing:
BST needs to get the following JT:
Accuracy Bonus III: 30, 50, 75
Max HP Boost IV: 35, 55, 75, 95
Shield Defense Bonus: 85
The Job Trait: Beast Healer needs to change to include: Copies 1 status enhancing effect per rank in merits to Pet When Using Reward
Job Ability that needs to be Add:
Empathy's Bond: Decreases DMG Taken By Master and Increases Accuracy for Pet and Master the closer they are together
Level: 90
Recast: 3m
Effect Time: 45s~1m
And 2 or more Shields designed for BST EXCLUSIVELY need to be added. They also need to change BST Shield ranks from E to C.
>_> JA was just a last minute thought, and still a WIP, but the Gear and JTs are pretty solid... I think
Secondplanet
10-23-2015, 12:52 AM
To be honest, these are probably some of the things that need to happen to do make this a thing:
BST needs to get the following JT:
Accuracy Bonus III: 30, 50, 75
Max HP Boost IV: 35, 55, 75, 95
Shield Defense Bonus: 85
The Job Trait: Beast Healer needs to change to include: Copies 1 status enhancing effect per rank in merits to Pet When Using Reward
Job Ability that needs to be Add:
Empathy's Bond: Decreases DMG Taken By Master and Increases Accuracy for Pet and Master the closer they are together
Level: 90
Recast: 3m
Effect Time: 45s~1m
And 2 or more Shields designed for BST EXCLUSIVELY need to be added. They also need to change BST Shield ranks from E to C.
>_> JA was just a last minute thought, and still a WIP, but the Gear and JTs are pretty solid... I think
Seriously??? Why don't you just skip to the point you ask to have every other jobs traits and skills.
SE decided we're magically supposed to be frontline jobs which is a dramatically different role. Had BST been designed as a front line job from the start then the suggestions Zeargi made may have been included as well. People want BSTs to accept we're frontline now, that change requires traits and gear be revised to transition our role.
SE community reps, what do the devs think about backing up this new concept of front line BST with allowing us to be useful at the same time our pets are with adjustments to our traits to support the forced transition from ranged jobs to frontline as well as adjustments to pet:gear so the stats are mutual so we're not useless when our pets are effective and vice versa.
I mean, if we're going to change BST then lets change it completely.
Zeargi
10-23-2015, 03:01 AM
Seriously??? Why don't you just skip to the point you ask to have every other jobs traits and skills.
OK let me break it down for you, because you don't seem to get.
Of the '4' Pet Jobs
Summoner:
Pet Can be Buffed: Yes, Limited to the Blood Pacts on an Avatar, but they can get be augments outside of COR's Rolls with greater frequency without impacting over all DMG Output, E.I.: Abilities Divided into 2 Categories
Recover of Pet: Easy
Job Traits:
Level Name
10 Max MP Boost
15 Clear Mind
20 Resist Slow
25 Auto Refresh
30 Clear Mind II
30 Max MP Boost II
40 Resist Slow II
45 Clear Mind III
50 Max MP Boost III
60 Blood Boon
60 Clear Mind IV
60 Resist Slow III
70 Clear Mind V
70 Max MP Boost IV
75 Resist Slow IV
76 Max MP Boost V
85 Stout Servant
90 Auto Refresh II
95 Stout Servant II
96 Max MP Boost VI
Puppetmaster
Can Pet Be Buffed: Yes, The RDM and the WHM will cast spells on itself and other. Plus has Attachments, to further augment
Recovery of Pet: Easy
Job Traits:
Level Name
10 Resist Slow
15 Resist Amnesia *
20 Evasion Bonus
25 Martial Arts
40 Evasion Bonus II
50 Martial Arts II
50 Resist Slow II
60 Evasion Bonus III
70 Resist Slow III
75 Martial Arts III
75 (Merit) Fine-Tuning
75 (Merit) Optimization
78 Stout Servant
80 Evasion Bonus IV
80 Tactical Guard
85 Critical Defense Bonus
86 Martial Arts IV
88 Stout Servant II
90 Tactical Guard II
97 Martial Arts V
98 Stout Servant III
Dragoon
Can Pet Be Buffed: Yes, Through Empathy a great number of Player Buffs can be transferred, with limitations
Recovery of Pet:Medium to Difficult
Job Traits:
Level Name
10 Attack Bonus
20 Strafe
25 Dragon Killer
30 Accuracy Bonus
40 Strafe II
45 Conserve TP
50 Accuracy Bonus II
60 Strafe III
75 (Merit) Empathy
75 (Merit) Strafe Effect
78 Accuracy Bonus III
80 Strafe IV
85 Critical Defense Bonus
90 Dragon Killer II
91 Attack bonus II
Beastmaster
Can the Pet Be Buffed: Yes, Select pets can use a small amount of augmentative abilities, such as Regen, or Haste, but can also come at the cost of improper Species Typing, resulting in a lose of DMG Output.
Recovery of Pet: Medium to Difficult
Job Traits:
Level Name
10 Vermin Killer
15 Resist Slow
15 Resist Amnesia
20 Bird Killer
30 Amorph Killer
35 Resist Slow II
40 Lizard Killer
40 Wide Scan II
50 Aquan Killer
55 Resist Slow III
60 Plantoid Killer
60 Wide Scan III
70 Beast Killer
75 Resist Slow IV
75 (Merit) Beast Affinity
75 (Merit) Beast Healer
78 Stout Servant
80 Fencer
80 Wide Scan IV
87 Fencer II
88 Stout Servant II
94 Fencer III
98 Stout Servant III
Now, Let's compare: The two that are closest to BST are PUP and DRG:
PUP gets Martial Arts, Evasion Bonus, Tactical Guard, and Critical Defense Bonus
DRG get Accuracy Bonus, Attack Bonus, Conserve TP, Critical Defense Bonus
BST gets Fencer
Hmmm... Doesn't seem even does it?
Next up. Job abilities
PUP gets Deus Ex Automata, Repair, Maintenance, (Merit) Role Reversal, (Merit) Ventriloquy, Tactical Switch, Cooldown
DRG gets Ancient Circle, Jump, Spirit Link, High Jump, Super Jump, (Merit) Deep Breathing, (Merit) Angon, Spirit Jump, Soul Jump, Dragon Breaker
BST gets Charm, Gauge, Reward, Call Beast, Bestial Loyalty, Tame, (Merit) Feral Howl, (Merit) Killer Instinct
Guess what, this isn't balanced either.
So, those 3 Job Traits are pretty freakin' reasonable... Because you know who else gets Shield Defense Bonus... WHM... Yeah, the people that are a back line job get Shield Defense Bonus. You know who also get Fencer, but their main is a Two Hand weapon... WAR. But you know what else WAR gets: Attack Bonus II, Defense Bonus II, Max HP Bonus IV, Critical Attack Bonus II, Critical Defense Bonus, Shield Defense Bonus, and Double Attack. So You tell me legitimately why a Job that's classified as a "Front Line" Job has 0 useful Job Traits and Job Abilities?
Secondplanet
10-23-2015, 05:27 AM
OK let me break it down for you, because you don't seem to get.
Of the '4' Pet Jobs
Summoner:
Pet Can be Buffed: Yes, Limited to the Blood Pacts on an Avatar, but they can get be augments outside of COR's Rolls with greater frequency without impacting over all DMG Output, E.I.: Abilities Divided into 2 Categories
Recover of Pet: Easy
Job Traits:
Level Name
10 Max MP Boost
15 Clear Mind
20 Resist Slow
25 Auto Refresh
30 Clear Mind II
30 Max MP Boost II
40 Resist Slow II
45 Clear Mind III
50 Max MP Boost III
60 Blood Boon
60 Clear Mind IV
60 Resist Slow III
70 Clear Mind V
70 Max MP Boost IV
75 Resist Slow IV
76 Max MP Boost V
85 Stout Servant
90 Auto Refresh II
95 Stout Servant II
96 Max MP Boost VI
Puppetmaster
Can Pet Be Buffed: Yes, The RDM and the WHM will cast spells on itself and other. Plus has Attachments, to further augment
Recovery of Pet: Easy
Job Traits:
Level Name
10 Resist Slow
15 Resist Amnesia *
20 Evasion Bonus
25 Martial Arts
40 Evasion Bonus II
50 Martial Arts II
50 Resist Slow II
60 Evasion Bonus III
70 Resist Slow III
75 Martial Arts III
75 (Merit) Fine-Tuning
75 (Merit) Optimization
78 Stout Servant
80 Evasion Bonus IV
80 Tactical Guard
85 Critical Defense Bonus
86 Martial Arts IV
88 Stout Servant II
90 Tactical Guard II
97 Martial Arts V
98 Stout Servant III
Dragoon
Can Pet Be Buffed: Yes, Through Empathy a great number of Player Buffs can be transferred, with limitations
Recovery of Pet:Medium to Difficult
Job Traits:
Level Name
10 Attack Bonus
20 Strafe
25 Dragon Killer
30 Accuracy Bonus
40 Strafe II
45 Conserve TP
50 Accuracy Bonus II
60 Strafe III
75 (Merit) Empathy
75 (Merit) Strafe Effect
78 Accuracy Bonus III
80 Strafe IV
85 Critical Defense Bonus
90 Dragon Killer II
91 Attack bonus II
Beastmaster
Can the Pet Be Buffed: Yes, Select pets can use a small amount of augmentative abilities, such as Regen, or Haste, but can also come at the cost of improper Species Typing, resulting in a lose of DMG Output.
Recovery of Pet: Medium to Difficult
Job Traits:
Level Name
10 Vermin Killer
15 Resist Slow
15 Resist Amnesia
20 Bird Killer
30 Amorph Killer
35 Resist Slow II
40 Lizard Killer
40 Wide Scan II
50 Aquan Killer
55 Resist Slow III
60 Plantoid Killer
60 Wide Scan III
70 Beast Killer
75 Resist Slow IV
75 (Merit) Beast Affinity
75 (Merit) Beast Healer
78 Stout Servant
80 Fencer
80 Wide Scan IV
87 Fencer II
88 Stout Servant II
94 Fencer III
98 Stout Servant III
Now, Let's compare: The two that are closest to BST are PUP and DRG:
PUP gets Martial Arts, Evasion Bonus, Tactical Guard, and Critical Defense Bonus
DRG get Accuracy Bonus, Attack Bonus, Conserve TP, Critical Defense Bonus
BST gets Fencer
Hmmm... Doesn't seem even does it?
Next up. Job abilities
PUP gets Deus Ex Automata, Repair, Maintenance, (Merit) Role Reversal, (Merit) Ventriloquy, Tactical Switch, Cooldown
DRG gets Ancient Circle, Jump, Spirit Link, High Jump, Super Jump, (Merit) Deep Breathing, (Merit) Angon, Spirit Jump, Soul Jump, Dragon Breaker
BST gets Charm, Gauge, Reward, Call Beast, Bestial Loyalty, Tame, (Merit) Feral Howl, (Merit) Killer Instinct
Guess what, this isn't balanced either.
So, those 3 Job Traits are pretty freakin' reasonable... Because you know who else gets Shield Defense Bonus... WHM... Yeah, the people that are a back line job get Shield Defense Bonus. You know who also get Fencer, but their main is a Two Hand weapon... WAR. But you know what else WAR gets: Attack Bonus II, Defense Bonus II, Max HP Bonus IV, Critical Attack Bonus II, Critical Defense Bonus, Shield Defense Bonus, and Double Attack. So You tell me legitimately why a Job that's classified as a "Front Line" Job has 0 useful Job Traits and Job Abilities?
any reason you left out job points and the gifts? Seems to be quite a few to power up your pets even further, also you seem to also forget how often you can heal your pet with the countless bonuses you can get on them plus regen. I can't talk for puppetmaster as i haven't really played it but as for summoner and dragoon that seems to put you on a big leap forward for keeping your pets alive, also can't really bring up the fact that summoners can resummon our avatars cause if they die most times we're dead as we have low defense and our avatars can't tank anything endgame as our options for -dt stuff is far more limited then yours.
Zeargi
10-23-2015, 07:29 AM
any reason you left out job points and the gifts?
Because they don't matter. JP/CP don't matter if the fundamental aspect of a job can't stand up. JP shouldn't be a requirement to function, but the icing on top of a cake. As well, a job should be able to stand up on it's own without the aid of a support job. The support job should only further compliment the jobs ability. Such as BLM compliments RDM because it give access to spells it wouldn't normally have and offers the elemental seal ability. BST, they get Killer Traits which are useless in a party environment because a BST with hate means they die, so that also means no Intimidation. Then again, that doesn't matter, because they also don't help against Luminions, Luminians, Undead, Dragons, Demon, Arcana, Archaia, Empty, Beastmen, Vorageans, Elementals, Races, or Animated Objects, mostly because those don't have killer effects or they belong to another job. PLD - Holy Circle, DRK - Acrane Circle, SAM - Warding Circle, DRG - Ancient Circle. All those jobs gain their 'Circle' Naturally, but for BST... it's a merited ability.
Fencer - Increases Critical Hit Rate when wielding with the main hand only. Grants a TP Bonus to weapon skills.
This trait give +5% to crit rate up to 7% with Tier 3, but doesn't take effect if you're duel wielding, or using a 2-handed weapon. So that mean, BST have to use 1 Axe, and logically, because shields don't hinder this ability, you'd use that, but there aren't any good shields, but with an E ranking you won't be blocking a whole lot, but don't worry that WHM back there, they get a D ranking. But because BST is also heavy on equipment swaps, that means that switching to the Charmer's Merlin means your pet loses it's Ilvl and you lose your TP, and cutting into you overall DMG, because you aren't hitting that Ilvl 115+ mob with that axe, and your pet is now weaker
Seems to be quite a few to power up your pets even further, also you seem to also forget how often you can heal your pet with the countless bonuses you can get on them plus regen.
Spirit Link: Recast:1:30
Reward: Recast 1:30
Merits:
Spirit Link Recast
Reward Recast
Spirit Link requires a player's HP to but can transfer status buffs with Empathy. Also removes some status ailments from the Wyvern such as Poison, Sleep, Paralyze as well as has a chance to remove Doom.
Reward requires a Consumable item (Inventory Space) and heals based on the biscuit that's used, + all the Gear you swap in (More Inventory Space) and the Equipment pieces that can 'Augment' it so you can remove Poison, Slow, Paralyze, Silence, Blind, or Weight... Or you use another item (More Inventory Space) and Remove more status, but forego healing any HP. Plus you can't forget you make sure you swap in that other armor (Even more Inventory Space) So you can shorten the timer for Reward by another maybe 30 secs so you get to use it every 45 secs, if you have the items... Oh, your macros didn't screw up, and lets not forget that you're also trying not to die yourself. But hey! Your Reward command did give your pet some Enmity, plus side :D
I can't talk for puppetmaster as i haven't really played it but as for summoner and dragoon that seems to put you on a big leap forward for keeping your pets alive, also can't really bring up the fact that summoners can resummon our avatars cause if they die most times we're dead as we have low defense and our avatars can't tank anything endgame as our options for -dt stuff is far more limited then yours.
I can talk for PUP, because I've played the hell out of it and every other Pet Job.
PUP Gets Deus Ex Automata which is a 1 minute recast, Respawns the Automaton at 1/3 HP/MP and puts it into a High Burdened state, But You can use Role Swap, Deploy and Have it Use a Cure Spell if It's a mage, use Light Maneuver to allow it to Regen with Auto-Repair Kit 1-4, can use Cool Down to purge 50% of the burden, and if you manage to get it to 100% HP... You can Deactivate and reset the cool down time for Activate (Which is a 20m Recast) as often as you like. And BAM you have a fresh Auto with 100% HP and MP with all it's Attachments functional and it's ready to go in just a little over a minute.
You have just as many augmentable armors for SMN with the Helios, Keraunos, even the old Moogle Trial Staff that gives Pet: -12% PDT(Because your pet isn't effected by your main weapon like BST is), plus the Handler's Earrings (NQ and +1), With Garuda, she can heal herself which is on a 30 second time with all the augments you can get.
Fynlar
10-23-2015, 10:21 AM
Unless either they make a new axe or shield with an effect similar to Charmer's Merlin (and I'm pretty sure they have said that they won't, but who knows anymore), you might as well forget about anything relating to Fencer or shields because they simply aren't going to get used.
Either that or they nerf pet TP moves to utter oblivion, in which case it would likely just be the I-beam that finally breaks the dhalmel's back in terms of BST actually getting any use at all.
Secondplanet
10-23-2015, 01:27 PM
You have just as many augmentable armors for SMN with the Helios, Keraunos, even the old Moogle Trial Staff that gives Pet: -12% PDT(Because your pet isn't effected by your main weapon like BST is), plus the Handler's Earrings (NQ and +1), With Garuda, she can heal herself which is on a 30 second time with all the augments you can get.
Summoners don't get a choice on our ranged slot item anymore as we have to use and only use serapicaller to be able to do what we can. As for the augmentable gear except for swapping in for attacks are useless as we're slaves to MP. We have to have perpetual cost down and if we can refresh or we'll be a done in a couple of shots and have to rest or using our limited syphon ability. Even the moogle staff would hinder us as only 1 ability on a weapon is a waste of space. But most of all when it comes to Garuda its nice and all she can heal herself but then we have to choose to either do damage with the tp or spam it to keep her alive....... but wait isn't that what you're complaining about is having to choose to keep yourself or your pet alive? seems like a double standard you're giving summoners that we have to choose keeping a pet alive or doing damage at that point. As for beasts they have multiple options to use as their main hand to give their pets their ilvl and even have easy to obtain items to further increase their pets ilvl with out the need for a mythic like summoner has to face. As for inventory space many jobs have a great deal of space taken up to have all their swap pieces in.
Also many of the summoners bloodpact wards are still capped at lvl 75 stats with no word ever of bringing them to our current level.
Zeargi
10-23-2015, 02:12 PM
Summoners don't get a choice on our ranged slot item anymore as we have to use and only use serapicaller to be able to do what we can. As for the augmentable gear except for swapping in for attacks are useless as we're slaves to MP. We have to have perpetual cost down and if we can refresh or we'll be a done in a couple of shots and have to rest or using our limited syphon ability.
Then you aren't managing your MP Well enough. Beckoner's Hands and Feet Teamed with /SCH storm spells would more than enough cover the Prep Cost for swapping in Helios armor pieces, that's also counting Auto Refresh and If you Took the Time to get the Evoker's Ring, which has been a staple for SMN since ever. You can also get an Icarus Wing and unlock Myrkr and Restore MP that way. Not to mention the Emp. Reforges still have a Blood Boon Bonus on them, that helps with your MP cost. Yet another Job Trait bonus that's useful to a pet job.
Even the moogle staff would hinder us as only 1 ability on a weapon is a waste of space.
So much like the Brave's Warbonnet or The Stout Bonnet that gives Reward Recast Minus (Oh and Charm Vs. Beast +6 Because Charm is used oh so much now in things)
But most of all when it comes to Garuda its nice and all she can heal herself but then we have to choose to either do damage with the tp or spam it to keep her alive....... but wait isn't that what you're complaining about is having to choose to keep yourself or your pet alive? seems like a double standard you're giving summoners that we have to choose keeping a pet alive or doing damage at that point.
Except with the proper distance, you're not going to die. I spent most of my time leveling SMN in Ifrit's Cauldron and you learned that you picked on Bombs, ran away and continued this until it used Self-Destruct. If you did The Trial-Size Avatar battles, that's how you won, by sending your lovely little Radioactive Squirrel to its doom a crap ton of times while you went to the entrance and back to the top each time you summoned, all the while using items to keep your MP in the Positive. That's before Elemental Siphon was a thing, and that the Elementals weren't next to free, and you had a crap ton of options for -Prep. And as a SMN, you're not getting near that stuff, because now you have a great distance range for your abilities and you're Backline job, so you can get away with dismissing and resummoning in a party, because you're not going to be in the AoE that cause weakness or that causes Terminal DMG and your avatar takes a few seconds to replay, where BST takes 5m and 20m to replace, each one costing money because those pets are also consumable.
As for beasts they have multiple options to use as their main hand to give their pets their ilvl and even have easy to obtain items to further increase their pets ilvl with out the need for a mythic like summoner has to face. As for inventory space many jobs have a great deal of space taken up to have all their swap pieces in.
There's a major difference, The Nirvana drops your level by 2, Unequipping an Ilvl Axe drops BST's Pet lvl by 20, and you can get away without the Nirvana. Not to mention that no matter the case, BST pets can't go beyond 119, unlike your Avatar which can go to 121/122 for Carbuncle and Cait Sith.
Also many of the summoners bloodpact wards are still capped at lvl 75 stats with no word ever of bringing them to our current level.
That's been the only correct thing you've said thus far, but SMN is still in better shape than BST.
Kuroganashi
10-23-2015, 03:10 PM
Bring back all EMPERYAN WS DMG Up !!!!!!!!!
MNK SAM DRG DRK should be TOP DDs Again !~
Bring back all EMPERYAN WS DMG Up !!!!!!!!!
MNK SAM DRG DRK should be TOP DDs Again !~
Sure, but let's also revert BST range to pre-nerf range.
Vargos
10-30-2015, 03:23 AM
No it's not. You people want to just stand on the sidelines with your pet doing all the work. Wake up, SE doesn't want you to play that way. SE wants you to stand right next to your pet and fight along side it. You only consider it broken because you don't want to play it the way SE intends for you to play it. Get over it.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/48581-SE-and-fixing-things-that-arent-broke?p=564505&viewfull=1#post564505
Daniel_Hatcher
10-30-2015, 04:46 AM
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/48581-SE-and-fixing-things-that-arent-broke?p=564505&viewfull=1#post564505
Not worth arguing with trolls, no matter how valid your point is.
Unless either they make a new axe or shield with an effect similar to Charmer's Merlin (and I'm pretty sure they have said that they won't, but who knows anymore), you might as well forget about anything relating to Fencer or shields because they simply aren't going to get used.
Either that or they nerf pet TP moves to utter oblivion, in which case it would likely just be the I-beam that finally breaks the dhalmel's back in terms of BST actually getting any use at all.
I'm pretty sure you only need it on when casting a new avatar for the level effect to take effect
Daniel_Hatcher
10-31-2015, 12:19 AM
I'm pretty sure you only need it on when casting a new avatar for the level effect to take effect
If you switch the weapon your pet's level drops (least it was the case when I played BST, switch the weapon out and watch the HP drop.)
Kensagaku
10-31-2015, 12:24 AM
This is indeed the case for BST, though it works both ways, so if you switch back to a higher ilvl axe, your pet's hp seems to drop because its maximum went back up, but its current did not. Allows those of us feeling a little risky to do sword + shield (beatific/+1 when we have to get close to reduce damage, for example) and still use charmer's merlin for brief swaps at the cost of never having our pet at full HP. Just try not to start your ready command until after a TP move. :P
I imagine for Nirvana it's similar, but losing those two levels of stats on a BP is actually going to hurt them quite a bit, I imagine.
Zeargi
10-31-2015, 08:25 AM
I imagine for Nirvana it's similar, but losing those two levels of stats on a BP is actually going to hurt them quite a bit, I imagine.
Most of the SMNs I know, don't use the Nirvana for most things. They use a nuking staff. They might macro it in maybe, but for the most part, it's a straight physical/hybrid BP staff.
Locking BST threads in the BST forum made by BSTs for BSTs while leaving troll posts demanding nerfs unlocked is pretty low SE...
Malthar
11-04-2015, 05:45 AM
Yeah, I'm becoming despondent. I'm giving serious thought to cancelling my account and quitting FFXI.
detlef
11-04-2015, 06:18 AM
I see one locked thread in the BST forum. Is it just that single thread locked or were there multiple threads deleted that are no longer visible?
Regarding the locked thread, did it really provide any new insights or revelations, or was it just going to be the same posters making the same statements that have already been made in a multitude of existing threads?
I see one locked thread in the BST forum. Is it just that single thread locked or were there multiple threads deleted that are no longer visible?
Regarding the locked thread, did it really provide any new insights or revelations, or was it just going to be the same posters making the same statements that have already been made in a multitude of existing threads?
Unlike the rest of the board, where people offer up new perspectives all the time rather than talking about the same things? It's not like BSTs have a monopoly on strongly held, often expressed opinions.
Zarchery
11-04-2015, 06:42 AM
I see one locked thread in the BST forum. Is it just that single thread locked or were there multiple threads deleted that are no longer visible?
Regarding the locked thread, did it really provide any new insights or revelations, or was it just going to be the same posters making the same statements that have already been made in a multitude of existing threads?
The second one.
Look at what's happened here. Olor made posts in two different threads to complain about the same thing that's already been discussed ad nauseum.
detlef
11-04-2015, 07:16 AM
Unlike the rest of the board, where people offer up new perspectives all the time rather than talking about the same things? It's not like BSTs have a monopoly on strongly held, often expressed opinions.It's true that threads are often recycled and restated, but you have to admit that the recent BST-related threads have become particularly angsty and venomous. I don't really have an issue with moderators heading this one off at the pass.
Were running in circles. Quid quaeris alios ad facientes reportetis teipsum.
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Lets hope SE repairs BST as too many people have retired from the Nerf already.