To the posters of this fourm, understand constructive criticism

[Rambus]

I do not want SE to ingore these boards because people treat this place like alla, BG or whatever. I cannot stress enough we are loosing our way in constructive criticism. You can disagree with someone’s point, but DO NOT, DO NOT play this:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

while trying to pad your creditably. It does not help anything but makes us look bad to SE/REPs.

I am very disgusted in how people acted in this thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4741-It-s-offiical....SE-no-longer-gives-a-darn-about-FFXI.

I do not care if you think krystal compains to much or makes posts/topics you disagree with. Say your objection, explain why you disagree with it and move on. People/SE reading these things do not need to hear your personal quall with the person.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4741-It-s-offiical....SE-no-longer-gives-a-darn-about-FFXI./page7

Look at the words I used. I think I made it really clear I was disgusted with how people where posting ,(without actually saying it), and made my comments and objections to her like " SE is posting and trying to fix up FFXIV more because it is in such ruin".

I stated my views without attaching her, why can't you?

[Malamasala]

I think you'll have more success using the hyperlink button. All your links tend to just be "..."ed into oblivion.

[Rambus]

Yeah I was fixing it, is it ok now? my veiw clear and such?

[Dallas]

The world is not a vacuum. Everyone should know as soon as they post that someone is likely going to disagree with them. In most cases, a LOT of people will disagree with you. She certainly did, and she made them feel unwelcome with her first post. That's destructive, not constructive.

[rog]

I stated my views without attaching her, why can't you? Because it doesn't work.

[Kensagaku]

It's not as easy as you make it out to be, Rambus. There's disagreeing, which Krystal certainly did enough of, and then there's the stubborn-backed shouting and calling out of people who disagree with you, which she did more of. Krystal's comments, despite any "good intentions", had terrible means with which to convey her thoughts.

The reason she inevitably gets trolled (and not by me... I only recently started posting and simply refuted her points rather than trolling... i.e. she dug her own grave) is because she is bad-mannered and a social nuisance; most people don't appreciate being "shouted at" by all capital letters and treated like they're trolls simply because their way of thinking does not mesh with hers. Inevitably, she has become a laughingstock to most of the FFXI official forums community from her actions, and has zero credibility or standing among the majority.

tl;dr what Rog said: Because it doesn't work.

[blowfin]

Inevitably, she has become a laughingstock to most of the FFXI official forums community from her actions, and has zero credibility or standing among the majority.

Exactly. What worries me though, and prompts me to reply to her, is that there are new people coming in here every day who might take her nonsense seriously. I see it as a civil duty to not only dismantle the garbage she posts, but also inform them that rational conversation with her is a vacuous and fruitless exercise.

[Kensagaku]

Exactly. What worries me though, and prompts me to reply to her, is that there are new people coming in here every day who might take her nonsense seriously. I see it as a civil duty to not only dismantle the garbage she posts, but also inform them that rational conversation with her is a vacuous and fruitless exercise.

I feel the same way... I'm more determined to halt a spread of misinformation that her posts portray. More often than not they're conspiracies (i.e. "SE doesn't give a darn about FFXI" when we have a devtracker for each section that SHOWS Camate, our community rep, replying to the different ideas. Look at the macro strings thread, for example.) or they're simply stating that something about the game is unfair (H2H gets left out on red procs despite having multiple blue procs as well as both MNK and PUP having access to a number of red procs based on subjob) or simply calling people out as trolls despite their attempts to give good and factual information.

I wish we could just motion for a ban, but I highly doubt that would ever come to pass. -_-;

[rog]

Exactly. What worries me though, and prompts me to reply to her, is that there are new people coming in here every day who might take her nonsense seriously. I see it as a civil duty to not only dismantle the garbage she posts, but also inform them that rational conversation with her is a vacuous and fruitless exercise.
Oh wow, we agree on something.

But really, this^

[blowfin]

Oh wow, we agree on something.

We agree on a lot of things, it`s not like your posts usually need validating though.

[Rambus]

The reason she inevitably gets trolled (and not by me... I only recently started posting and simply refuted her points rather than trolling... i.e. she dug her own grave) is because she is bad-mannered and a social nuisance; most people don't appreciate being "shouted at" by all capital letters and treated like they're trolls simply because their way of thinking does not mesh with hers. Inevitably, she has become a laughingstock to most of the FFXI official forums community from her actions, and has zero credibility or standing among the majority.

tl;dr what Rog said: Because it doesn't work.

There should be NO TROLLING, it is in ToS, you control your words she don't make you say them

[SNK]

Well to be fair Rambus. You really don't think the things she posts isn't some form of trolling? I find it hard to believe much of what she says when she's saying that she saw a PUP solo Dynamis Lord.

Really now.

[Kensagaku]

There should be NO TROLLING, it is in ToS, you control your words she don't make you say them

Please read my post... I have not posted with the intent to troll her. All I have done is refute simple points that she left wide open with a lack of logic. Also, as a request, please use some bare modicum of grammar so that I don't have to stare at the screen wondering where modern education has left us today.

I'm glad you're having fun white-knighting your friend here, but in all honesty, you're supporting a moot point. Krystal's most recent topic, the one you listed, was anything but constructive criticism. It was an inflammatory topic that directly attacked, without evidence, a system that is in place. As a result, people pointed out that the topic was a waste of time and internet space. I was merely one of those, pointing it out in the way Krystal treated others and that her lack of credibility, along with the questionable content of the thread, made it hard to take her seriously.

Maybe the ToS does state something against trolling, but for the most part Krystal called it upon herself by being a rude, ignorant, and childish member of the community. I don't condone it, but I'm sure as heck not arguing that it's uncalled for.

[Alhanelem]

most people don't appreciate being "shouted at" by all capital letters and treated like they're trolls simply because their way of thinking does not mesh with hers.This is pretty much the gist of that specific problem. Usually the topic is reasonable enough, but she has to call out all the people who might attempt to troll her in advance- this always backfires and virtually always results in being trolled more.

[Rambus]

Please read my post... I have not posted with the intent to troll her. All I have done is refute simple points that she left wide open with a lack of logic. Also, as a request, please use some bare modicum of grammar so that I don't have to stare at the screen wondering where modern education has left us today.

I'm glad you're having fun white-knighting your friend here, but in all honesty, you're supporting a moot point. Krystal's most recent topic, the one you listed, was anything but constructive criticism. It was an inflammatory topic that directly attacked, without evidence, a system that is in place. As a result, people pointed out that the topic was a waste of time and internet space. I was merely one of those, pointing it out in the way Krystal treated others and that her lack of credibility, along with the questionable content of the thread, made it hard to take her seriously.

Maybe the ToS does state something against trolling, but for the most part Krystal called it upon herself by being a rude, ignorant, and childish member of the community. I don't condone it, but I'm sure as heck not arguing that it's uncalled for.

Oh i am sorry when i said "you" I meant to general public, I did not mean you specifically. I do not believe in "well you made yourself a target so i cannot control my actions".

I am not white knighting crap, I do not care of such ting, I do not gain from such a thing. what I care about is SE taking us seriously, and that will not happen with attitude like this.
If you think something is troll is to report it, if you ( as in everyone) cannot post without a flame then report it and say nothing.

I am going to be honest, i read little that thread but I am tired of this theme:

This thread was started to invite constructive criticism, which is welcome. However, the thread seems to have strayed from its intended goal. As such, this thread is being locked.

[Alkalinehoe]

Oh i am sorry when i said "you" I meant to general public, I did not mean you specifically. I do not believe in "well you made yourself a target so i cannot control my actions".

I am not white knighting crap, I do not care of such ting, I do not gain from such a thing. what I care about is SE taking us seriously, and that will not happen with attitude like this.
If you think something is troll is to report it, if you ( as in everyone) cannot post without a flame then report it and say nothing.

I am going to be honest, i read little that thread but I am tired of this theme:
The SE mods are nice, you shouldn't take their excuses for closing down threads all the time though. They're just trying to be impartial and not call Krystal an idiot.

[Gokku]

I for one as a player and a person staunchly defend something I'm passionate about. Monk and Warrior being my mains are generally the only times ill post something. Krystal just happens to keep mentioning them and i try to stop her/his/its ignorance before it spreads I'm in no means the nicest person about it but i do try to get people to see the facts. Now Krystal and there views are wrong on so many levels but being wrong isn't the issue its the failure to accept anything else that's right.

Another prime example is Arcon in the warrior forums, hes posting nonsense backed by incorrect and incomplete math *hes even said its incomplete himself* but when corrected refuses to accept it. The worst thing about it all is people will listen, some will see the lack of logic and ignore him but i promise you someones going to eat every word he says as fact.

Lastly you have the rage fest that was players trying to argue against gear swaps and haste. Yes it turned into a huge flame war and thank god the player base killed that ideal and threads off fairly quick but the repercussions of what leaving threads like that alone could do are worth all the trolling in the world. If derailing and Trolling are what it takes to either make these people leave or stop posting were dev's and players that can have an effect will see are then good. The sooner we clear the Forums of all the horrid, childish,and ignorant posted threads the more likely for quality threads to be made increases. We as players are the only ones who can say "this person is wrong" the mods can lock and delete only so much.

tl;dr : Only you can prevent forest fires


P.S. PRIME EXAMPLE is that thread up now about someone wanting SE to make all the changes THEY deem necessary so that they alone are happy. Yes some of there points are ok and people are pointing out the ignorant points but once again the person is ignoring fact.

[Rezeak]

This is why there should be a dislike button while it's negative it a much better way to disagree with someone

[Kazen]

Oh page 7, that's the page that one of my responses resulted in us finding out she is a psychologist (lol).

[Bubeeky]

You can't start a thread violently threatening people in capital letters and whatnot and expect some kind of constructive criticism as a response...the world just doesn't work like that. Respect others to get respected yourself. Also, answer questions posed about your posts...don't fly off the handle when someone points out logical questions/points, then claim you're a psychologist irl so you shouldn't be questioned. (these are references to things I saw Krystal doing in other posts btw) :)

[rog]

This is why there should be a dislike button while it's negative it a much better way to disagree with someone
Or really just get rid of it entirely.

Speaking of which, i wonder how many people realize you can like your own posts?

[Karbuncle]

Or really just get rid of it entirely.

Speaking of which, i wonder how many people realize you can like your own posts?

Theres at least 2 people that do.

Also, When i give constructive criticism, and get back "HUR YOUR ELITIST YOU SUCK I HATES YOU YOUR IDEA IS DUMBZ IM RIGHTS YOUR WRONGS" then its on. Report > Reply is usually my method cause its the funniest to see their posts now deleted :\

In order for more people on this website to "play it cool" when it comes to obviously bad posts, The person Posting needs to have the same attitude. If you get some Tardwaffle complaining about an asinine subject and calling everyone a troll who responds with a different opinion, they simply invite the negative comments they get. Its a two way street. In order to get a civil conversation, You need to invite one.

BIG LETTERS and LOUD WORDS Don't invite civil conversation. Abusing CAPS LOCK KEY to get your point across makes you look like a tard :| (not you as in you, you as in "in general")

[Megatron]

i have been playing this game for so long and seen so much go down that its easier to spot the forum trends and the things that are happening. years a ago if a person up and out of no were offered you advice. you lestioned and took it and tried it. and low and behold it worked and you were a better player for it. do that now. and you get cussed berated and attacked for the smallest detail.

Example: abyssea dom opps party i'm capping Gaxe skill on my War. not even getting pages or x por merits. jsut ther skilling up Gaxe. i keep noticing our black mages falling over dead. every pull at least one would die. now being a Lead blm in a end game shell for over 5 years. i start watching them and noticing that tehy would as soo nas the mob was pulled cast a Tier V nuke. when no one had hate on the monster. the mob of course would walk over thump them and they would fall over dead. so i said the following
" if you will wait till the monsters is at about 60-70% you will kill the monster and wil lnot get hate"
they responded
"if i wait till then my nuke goes off when the monster is at like 20% and i dont do as much damage"
i reply
" well then the monster is dead tho and you dont get any hate"
them
"i dont think i asked for your f*$king advice did i A$$h0le"



the same goes on in these forums. if you point out somethign peopel jump all over you attack you for anythign and everything. all the way down to your imporoper grammer skills. (happens to me all the time but i dont explain why becasue i dont want ot be labeled or treated diffrent).

your average internet combative (troll) person lashes out for attition. simply because it makes them feel good to casue others pain. the'll spend hours researching ways to simple pick you to the bone if proven wrong guess what they will simply switch targets ignoring the correction.

alot of kid gloves are required these days

[Kensagaku]

>.> If you look at the overall population of trolls we have on the site, most of them are actually constructive posters who know what they're talking about and provide good information if it is asked for in a civil, polite manner. If people would learn to accept that their predefined, unproven notions are wrong (like I had the hardest time accepting that more DW on my NIN was better at first 'til I was proven wrong, thinking that I'd get less overall TP gain due to lowered per hit...) and simply listen to the logic pointed out for them, the majority of "trolls" would probably come off as pretty calm folks.

The problem is, as someone already posted, that a large majority of people start telling folks off for saying they're wrong or over a little bit of hurt pride. They have no sense of civility (again citing Krystal as a prime example) and often enough make ignorant or contradictory statements that make the majority of us wish we could reach through the internet to strangle them sometimes. Many of us are trying to prevent the spread of misinformation, because that will reflect on players who we may end up with in a party or shout group, who them use said misconceptions to decrease the overall quality of said group and potentially cause it to fail.

tl;dr Be nice, accept you can be wrong, and we'll be nice too. >.>

[Megatron]

yes but to kepe naming the person over and over in a public form encourages the mto lash out. you cant feed stop teh problem by feeding them. constructive critisum and politness. is a two way street. if they dont wantthe advice or if the advice is give in a way that is shal lwe say harsh. people ignorre it or preseive it as a attack.... i'm fully with the masses on this thread that peopel needto step back take a deep breath and read the post twice befroe putting on the bloxing gloves and going to war. the old expression you catch more bees with honey. comes to mind

the biggest missconseption in ffxi is everything doesn't work the same for everyone. due to ability, skill and experiance. people learn things diffrently. we are not robots and what works best for person A doesn't always work best for person B due to the factors of their gamming lives. we can stear them in the optimal direction. but not everything works the same for everyone. and we as teh person tryingto help them haveto understand that they are not clones of ourselves and things dont and tehy cant hit a button and play the way we play. things take time. we as a community are willing to help anyone if we wernt we wounldn't post here . you jsut haveto be willing to learn and maybe we all will learn something together...

peace peeps long live FFXI

[Chiibi]

I stated my views without attaching her, why can't you?

Because people are entitled to voice their oppinions and disagreements with which might possibly be one of the DUMBEST things people have ever heard. Its a forum, we're allowed to voice our ideas and in response we're also allowed to tell the person how dumb it is in a method that sticks within the rules.

For example ive also told you on numerous occasions that your ideas were dumb, whiny, or in short talking like someone with nostalgia goggles. i ment no disrespect but im a pretty straightforward person "Why should i have to sugarcoat just so your feelings arnt hurt?". and i expect the same in return to all my posts, expecting everyone to hold your sense of morality.

[Kensagaku]

yes but to kepe naming the person over and over in a public form encourages the mto lash out. you cant feed stop teh problem by feeding them. constructive critisum and politness. is a two way street. if they dont wantthe advice or if the advice is give in a way that is shal lwe say harsh. people ignorre it or preseive it as a attack.... i'm fully with the masses on this thread that peopel needto step back take a deep breath and read the post twice befroe putting on the bloxing gloves and going to war. the old expression you catch more bees with honey. comes to mind

the biggest missconseption in ffxi is everything doesn't work the same for everyone. due to ability, skill and experiance. people learn things diffrently. we are not robots and what works best for person A doesn't always work best for person B due to the factors of their gamming lives. we can stear them in the optimal direction. but not everything works the same for everyone. and we as teh person tryingto help them haveto understand that they are not clones of ourselves and things dont and tehy cant hit a button and play the way we play. things take time. we as a community are willing to help anyone if we wernt we wounldn't post here . you jsut haveto be willing to learn and maybe we all will learn something together...

peace peeps long live FFXI

You're right, and that's why the majority of the disagreeing parties don't just go "Get the optimal pieces of gear, or gtfo." Instead, for the most part we simply sway people away from poor gear choices (Ex. Naturebeckles and her choice of not using Haste and instead fulltiming a mix of TP and WS gear that lowers her overall efficiency, when a simple macro to switch between TP gear and WS gear wouldn't take much) and suggest better ones. For the most part, the people who are trying to stop the flow of misinformation or bad information are generally aiming to guide unsure players towards a better setup. It's true that all groups have their elitists ("If you can't beat this lowman, you suck" etc), but for the most part, the majority of dissenters are quite civil.

We're not trying to make robots of people or clone images of ourselves (well, most of us, anyway) but simply are pointing out which setup tends to work best.

[RAIST]

@ Kensagaku
All I can say, is you have the patience of a saint. I don't know how you do it...after providing examples, providing links disproving points, etc. and the tools STILL want to deny the truth of the matter and move on to flaming those who disagree/disprove their points--I inevitably loose my cool and just rip into them. Just, can't help it sometimes... side effect of beating my head against the wall I guess.

It is just really frustrating that no matter how hard we try to moderate threads ourselves, there is always someone just trying to push us over the edge.....and eventually the levee breaks.

[Olor]

Man alla is downright civil compared to this place.

[Mrbeansman]

I'm sorry but when you write off mathematical evidence as "your opinion" you deserve no mercy for your ignorance.

[Ramsos]

Krystal has gotten what she deserves. Nothing more and nothing less. She alone is responsible for getting herself repeatedly trolled when she started trying to force her views on people and refused to have a civil argument with anyone who had a different point of view.

[rog]

>.> If you look at the overall population of trolls we have on the site, most of them are actually constructive posters who know what they're talking about and provide good information if it is asked for in a civil, polite manner. If people would learn to accept that their predefined, unproven notions are wrong (like I had the hardest time accepting that more DW on my NIN was better at first 'til I was proven wrong, thinking that I'd get less overall TP gain due to lowered per hit...) and simply listen to the logic pointed out for them, the majority of "trolls" would probably come off as pretty calm folks.

The problem is, as someone already posted, that a large majority of people start telling folks off for saying they're wrong or over a little bit of hurt pride. They have no sense of civility (again citing Krystal as a prime example) and often enough make ignorant or contradictory statements that make the majority of us wish we could reach through the internet to strangle them sometimes. Many of us are trying to prevent the spread of misinformation, because that will reflect on players who we may end up with in a party or shout group, who them use said misconceptions to decrease the overall quality of said group and potentially cause it to fail.

tl;dr Be nice, accept you can be wrong, and we'll be nice too. >.>Sounds about right.

[Fiarlia]

>.> If you look at the overall population of trolls we have on the site, most of them are actually constructive posters who know what they're talking about and provide good information if it is asked for in a civil, polite manner. If people would learn to accept that their predefined, unproven notions are wrong (like I had the hardest time accepting that more DW on my NIN was better at first 'til I was proven wrong, thinking that I'd get less overall TP gain due to lowered per hit...) and simply listen to the logic pointed out for them, the majority of "trolls" would probably come off as pretty calm folks.

The problem is, as someone already posted, that a large majority of people start telling folks off for saying they're wrong or over a little bit of hurt pride. They have no sense of civility (again citing Krystal as a prime example) and often enough make ignorant or contradictory statements that make the majority of us wish we could reach through the internet to strangle them sometimes. Many of us are trying to prevent the spread of misinformation, because that will reflect on players who we may end up with in a party or shout group, who them use said misconceptions to decrease the overall quality of said group and potentially cause it to fail.

tl;dr Be nice, accept you can be wrong, and we'll be nice too. >.>

Pretty much this. Most of the people who "troll" Krystal and/or a few select other people have already tried having civil conversations with her. Many of us have tried being civil in pointing out errors in (their preconceived notions of) gameplay mechanics and/or logical errors resulting in incorrect assumptions as an end result. Logic is used, math is used (with and without work shown and/or links to where the formulas come from), and the only response any of us ever get from Krystal is a rageguy cliche'd response of "OMG STOP TROLLING" or the infinite variations of "NO U." Most everyone who has tried is now seeing that there's little good in trying to be civil any longer, as the same canned responses will be flung around whether or not we're actually trolling.

Civility is usually maintained when it comes to talks with other people that there may be disagreements with. For example, I've seen Analhelm (not sure if I'm spelling his name right, and I'm not singling him out to say he's always wrong, so don't take it as such) disagree with a number of the "prominent posters." Yet arguments between him and someone else who may usually "troll" Krystal never degrade to that level. Analhelm has shown to be mature, civil, logical, and I'm sure if he were to make a mistake he'd be willing to admit it if proven wrong.

There are a few other Krystals floating around out there, and I'd be willing to bet that they'll be equally "attacked" when they come out of the woodwork. So, meh.

[Hoshi]

To be honest I was tempted to hit report for the very first post in Krystal's previous thread. She did more to troll, flame, and bait people with misinformation in that thread than any of the people who replied to her. I do worry with some of the threads that people post about the level of frustration the community team must feel. I hope they won't mistake the crazed words of a few for a larger percentage of the population.

[Olor]

Civility is usually maintained when it comes to talks with other people that there may be disagreements with.



Yeah I often disagree with you but you've always been polite about it - and it is much appreciated.

:)

[Fiarlia]

Yeah I often disagree with you but you've always been polite about it - and it is much appreciated.

:)

Indeed, and this is a large example of what I (and others) talk about. Olor and I (and Olor vs. others of the "prominent posters") disagree on a number of things, it seems like, but politeness and civility and even manners (nowai man) are still there.

So despite the arguments and disagreements, I'd like to tell you I appreciate you not being a raving lunatic. :D

[Fiarlia]

To be honest I was tempted to hit report for the very first post in Krystal's previous thread. She did more to troll, flame, and bait people with misinformation in that thread than any of the people who replied to her. I do worry with some of the threads that people post about the level of frustration the community team must feel. I hope they won't mistake the crazed words of a few for a larger percentage of the population.

I did report the first post, it never got nuked. :(

[Karbuncle]

I did report the first post, it never got nuked. :(

I wanted to report it twice :|

[Fiarlia]

I wanted to report it twice :|

I'm guessing it wasn't nuked because of the post the GM made later on, about constructive criticism being welcome or some such. Though it wasn't constructive in the slightest. It was typical Krystal retardation.

[Karbuncle]

I'm guessing it wasn't nuked because of the post the GM made later on, about constructive criticism being welcome or some such. Though it wasn't constructive in the slightest. It was typical Krystal retardation.

I kinda feel sorry for the people who had to read this forum Daily :( Some of the topics make me wanna break my hand on a wall, if only to distract me from the pain i feel in my brain.

I think that Dev really wanted to say something else, But he can't technically be mean to a player... Oh boy its a job i don't think I Could do. I try to remain calm in debates/Conversations, But sometimes, especially when it comes to a certain, I literally cannot respond, Cause nothing i would say would not get me horribly ban-hammered.

[Fiarlia]

I kinda feel sorry for the people who had to read this forum Daily :( Some of the topics make me wanna break my hand on a wall, if only to distract me from the pain i feel in my brain.

I think that Dev really wanted to say something else, But he can't technically be mean to a player... Oh boy its a job i don't think I Could do. I try to remain calm in debates/Conversations, But sometimes, especially when it comes to a certain, I literally cannot respond, Cause nothing i would say would not get me horribly ban-hammered.

God, could you imagine the stuff we (and others) would be able to say to Krystal if he posted on BG? And the banhammer comments that would come from Isladar?

/dreamysigh

[Rambus]

>.> If you look at the overall population of trolls we have on the site, most of them are actually constructive posters who know what they're talking about and provide good information if it is asked for in a civil, polite manner. If people would learn to accept that their predefined, unproven notions are wrong (like I had the hardest time accepting that more DW on my NIN was better at first 'til I was proven wrong, thinking that I'd get less overall TP gain due to lowered per hit...) and simply listen to the logic pointed out for them, the majority of "trolls" would probably come off as pretty calm folks.

The problem is, as someone already posted, that a large majority of people start telling folks off for saying they're wrong or over a little bit of hurt pride. They have no sense of civility (again citing Krystal as a prime example) and often enough make ignorant or contradictory statements that make the majority of us wish we could reach through the internet to strangle them sometimes. Many of us are trying to prevent the spread of misinformation, because that will reflect on players who we may end up with in a party or shout group, who them use said misconceptions to decrease the overall quality of said group and potentially cause it to fail.

tl;dr Be nice, accept you can be wrong, and we'll be nice too. >.>

I just wanted to quote you and say you are right, it is nice to see people to show math and proofs. I do not want to sit here and say to people "no you cannot prove someone wrong" I am always trying to improve my self as a person and understanding of everything. I do not want to spam quote every post I read so I am just going to comment on them briefly.

Like I said before I do not believe in "xxx makes them self a target" point out where you disagree with them, explain your views and leave it at that.

Megatron brought up the personal attack of grammar and I will hate to see that here, it leads no where. a simple "I do not understand xxxx can you explain xxx better" vs then "you suck you are stupid so on is something I am requesting from this thread. It violates the ToS and goes nowhere. Hey megatron if you come back maybe ill help you what I do, I run my posts though word before posting.

I do not like showing my personal experiences because I do not want to come off like I am complaining vs pointing out an issue but:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4902-We-need-more-Agi-on-Ninja-Empyrean-Gear

I might have been too harsh with my words, but I was trying to ask a legitimate question if they understood all the aspects in gearing for a ws, not just worrying about a secondary modifier. I am going to be honest here, I do not know what goes in capping your Fstr or attack or w/e ( I know mage formulas a lot better than melee). I was only trying to point out there are people that just gear in secondary modifiers and don’t care about other stats. I even asked to be shown math and what not in what it takes to cap all these things. I disagree with how “easy” it is to cap attack or str requirements for a WS even in abyssea when you have brew doing so much more for you. Not only was I not shown math to back all this “easy caps” but comments that followed released personal attacks” Some people even twisted my words in what I was talking about. I get enough word twisting and personal attack from alla and KI and BG I do not want to see it here, not to me, not to anyone. It is even stated in the ToS of this site not to troll and that you are only supposed to add insight to a topic.

How is “why are you agreeing to someone that said blade jin is wind damage” insight to the topic? How is claiming I fish bot for my relic add to the topic?

[Rambus]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5971-Please-Rework-FULL-BREAK-S-effectiveness-other-GA-ws-s-like-it-DEV-TEAM-wave

this thread also got disgusting. why is it so hard to talk about the topic at hand and stay away from personal attacks?

may I remind everyone here the purpose of this forum. It is ment to post ideas to SE and have people reflect on the ideas. SE does not care about your personal issues with a person or a person's sig.

Why is it so hard for people to only talk about a topic and stay away from attacks?

Why? Why? Why? I do not understand.

[annewandering]

I have my suspicions as to who Krystal is and I am guessing others might as well. If so it is not surprising that they are getting such a strong reaction from the other posters. Some people LIKE to stir up people and push as many buttons as possible. They are not going to stop and responding in any extended degree will do nothing but give them satisfaction.
I say that if they post something stupid just post one post that they are wrong again. Then just dont go there again.

[Dubberrucky]

This is why there should be a dislike button while it's negative it a much better way to disagree with someone

This. Most of the posts in the forums are opinions. The "I disagree" button would cut down a lot of useless counterproductive flaming especially in cases that involve a preference rather than an evaluation of a game mechanic.

Most of the people I play with refuse to post in the forums for the same reason this thread even exists, but do not refrain from clicking the like button on a post. It would be nice to see both options available.

[Andylynn]

I do not want SE to ingore these boards because people treat this place like alla, BG or whatever. I cannot stress enough we are loosing our way in constructive criticism. You can disagree with someone’s point, but DO NOT, DO NOT play this:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

while trying to pad your creditably. It does not help anything but makes us look bad to SE/REPs.

I am very disgusted in how people acted in this thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4741-It-s-offiical....SE-no-longer-gives-a-darn-about-FFXI.

I do not care if you think krystal compains to much or makes posts/topics you disagree with. Say your objection, explain why you disagree with it and move on. People/SE reading these things do not need to hear your personal quall with the person.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4741-It-s-offiical....SE-no-longer-gives-a-darn-about-FFXI./page7

Look at the words I used. I think I made it really clear I was disgusted with how people where posting ,(without actually saying it), and made my comments and objections to her like " SE is posting and trying to fix up FFXIV more because it is in such ruin".

I stated my views without attaching her, why can't you?
+1 like button. Too many people forget 'being honest,' 'stating their opinion,' and 'correcting someone's mistake(s)' does not equate to carte blanche for being an ass.

[Korpg]

If you know that the thread is obviously troll, then why respond? You are doing what the thread was intended to do.

Of course, sometimes it looks like a completely honest question, and you don't know you just got baited into responding to a troll thread. Happens to me all the time though.

Thats probably why I don't respond to certain people's threads anymore, because it won't go anywhere nice.

[Starcade]

There is no such thing as "constructive criticism" with this forum.

[Rambus]

+1 like button. Too many people forget 'being honest,' 'stating their opinion,' and 'correcting someone's mistake(s)' does not equate to carte blanche for being an ass.

there is a difference of correcting someone and personall attack to the point a thread goes off topic, like the brake thread is my latest exmaple.

[noodles355]

why is it so hard to talk about the topic at hand and stay away from personal attacks?Because some people interpret all advice as a personal attack against them.

[Rambus]

Because some people interpret all advice as a personal attack against them.

I am not talking about that, I am talking about statements like "oh you should not have a relic" or "why are you listing to someone who said blade jin is crap on birds because it is wind damage" derailing a topic on someone’s sig to personal attack to discredit their view.

I am not talking about telling people macros make you more efficient, i am not talking about telling that one person to use haste set and ws set.

[Kensagaku]

Rambus. You're being a hypocrite. Read your replies in this thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6223-Mud-Spikes-Wind-Spikes-and-Aqua-Spikes

You've said several times "You're wrong. Your reply is irrelevant." This is not constructive criticism, this is merely tearing down a person. Please don't jab at people about attacking others if you're going to go and do the same thing.

[Rambus]

Rambus. You're being a hypocrite. Read your replies in this thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6223-Mud-Spikes-Wind-Spikes-and-Aqua-Spikes

You've said several times "You're wrong. Your reply is irrelevant." This is not constructive criticism, this is merely tearing down a person. Please don't jab at people about attacking others if you're going to go and do the same thing.

I did not attack the person so no i am not.

I was stating facts.

[Tamarsamar]

I did not attack the person so no i am not.

I was stating facts.

Marid droppings.

"You are wrong" constructive criticism does not make; "should [have] killed your view" does not make for helpful language, either.

[Randwolf]

This. Most of the posts in the forums are opinions. The "I disagree" button would cut down a lot of useless counterproductive flaming especially in cases that involve a preference rather than an evaluation of a game mechanic.

Most of the people I play with refuse to post in the forums for the same reason this thread even exists, but do not refrain from clicking the like button on a post. It would be nice to see both options available.
As Alla proves, this doesn't work either. The complaint on that site is that people just push the rate down arrow without giving any feedback at all. No, system is going to make everyone happy or even work, really.

With the "Dislike" button, people can hide behind never having to give a reason why they don't like something. They can simply go through a forum and continually press "Dislike" and never give an opinion to the contrary or submit a better idea. But, without it you get people who feel the need to disagree and do it like spoiled brats.

p.s. - I'll add, the Alla system of Karma is probably one of the worst. It takes the inherent dysfunction of the "Dislike" button and raises it to a new level. Karma doesn't look at the actual content of posts but simply how many times someone has had an Up or Down arrow pushed on their post(s). The idea is that the people with continual "bad" posts will have bad Karma. The problem is that a group of people who don't like one thing you said can find and downgrade you on every post you make. And, that is exactly what occurs on that site, 'Karma Bombing.'

[Saefinn]

I agree with you Rambus, people think trolling works, in actuality it invokes, as you rightly linked, a personal attack fallacy. If you're going to make a personal attack all you're saying is, "you're right, we don't have anything intelligent or useful to say in response, so we'll insult you instead." I've moderated quite a big discussion and debate forum and see it all the time - yes sarcasm works, dependent on the person, but often or not when somebody is attacked on a personal level or feels that way or are simply trolled, they're going to be backed into a corner, get on the defensive, act even MORE stubbornly and use it as confirmation that their point is right. A person will be stubborn if they think they're right and sometimes it takes more work to show them that they're wrong, other times it's simply best to accept you're not going to agree, trolling them isn't going to change it, it just means any points you've made have suddenly become moot (even if you don't convince them on the spot, they may change their minds later influenced by points you've made). Perhaps it's you who is wrong, who knows?

I also see a lot of people who have not been able to answer a person's points instead of simply saying "okay, I can't answer that one, but I still disagree" they'll throw out an insult instead or make some kind of attack and when confronted with it by a moderator they'll find some means of excusing it and justifying it in their own mind, "oh, they obviously deserved it, their point was moot and they weren't seeing it".

At least that's my experience as a debate forum moderator.


I don't know the thread in question - but I understand that the OP is addressing behaviour on the forum as a whole and using that thread as an example. I think if anything Krystal has said is ignorant then any points you make ought to show any onlookers as to why what she says is moot and can witness from her own behaviour and learn for themselves, if you're going to insult/troll then all you're saying to onlooker is, "this place is unwelcoming and nobody is allowed to disagree with other people and I can't take these people seriously", regardless of what the actual case may be. The OP is concerned with the forum image and how people behave - it affects how other people view the forum, SE included. I have been a member of a forum where the organisation who ran it closed it down because they felt it had too many bigots roaming it and say little reason to keep it open, it was far from the truth.

[Rambus]

I am going to try saying this once more.

this forum is not alla, bg, ki , ffxi ah or wherever else you got where you can let off steam in making attack statements to people that said lame things. These forums are being monitored by the people that make the game and should be civil as you can be. I do not care if it is me krystal, hordecore, or starcade. they (me/we) may state things you personally do not like, that does not give you the right to make attack threads or tag thread stalking. I read on a BG post "my posts are 75% real 25% troll" well guess what? Mine is 100-0 and everyone should be like that here.

If I was someone in power of SE I would make a statement, "shape up or ill shut down the forums". I read long ago that when it was Japanese only they had a forum for a few months but shut it down.
Do you really want them to shut this down because you cannot control your troll urges? Saying XXX makes them self a target? Only you control what you write.

Be professional you are talking to a business, not your drinking buddy.

[Alkalinehoe]

Mine is 100-0 and everyone should be like that here.

I think most of us would disagree with that. lol

[Corwin]

With the staggering amount of logical fallacies that gets posted on a daily basis unchecked while certain people mash the report button at every post they don't "like" because it "makes too much sense" I would not mind if the forum were closed at all.

You know very well what part you're playing. If you want professional posts, start locally.

[Yugl]

I think most of us would disagree with that. lol

I agree with this person.

[Kazen]

With the staggering amount of logical fallacies that gets posted on a daily basis unchecked while certain people mash the report button at every post they don't "like" because it "makes too much sense" I would not mind if the forum were closed at all.

You know very well what part you're playing. If you want professional posts, start locally.

I don't think I could have said it better myself.

[Pharaun]

Mine is 100-0 and everyone should be like that here.

Hahaha, oh wow, that is the funniest thing I have read all day, thanks Rambus.


If I was someone in power of SE I would make a statement, "shape up or ill shut down the forums". I read long ago that when it was Japanese only they had a forum for a few months but shut it down.
Do you really want them to shut this down because you cannot control your troll urges?

Quite frankly I wouldn't have a problem if SE decided to shut down these forums because they were a terrible idea to begin with. Official forums pretty much always degenerate into a steaming pile of crap because the woefully uneducated and misinformed always seem to make it their stronghold. These are the type of people who don't understand what constructive criticism is and tend to think that anyone who disagrees with them is personally attacking them. These types of people can't have a calm, rational debate about in game mechanics or ideas for changes and resort to spamming the report button whenever anyone dares to have a differing opinion. Eventually the people who do know what they're doing get tired of trying to stem the unending tide of retardation and terrible ideas that they give up and the forums end up as a circle jerk of horrible ideas/suggestions and even worse ones.

[Mrbeansman]

Be professional you are talking to a business, not your drinking buddy.

Because spamming the report button on any post that even remotely strays from your POV is totally professional right?

[Korpg]

People are going to disagree with anyone just because they don't like them from a previous post of "he said, she said."

While it would be nice for people to understand constructive criticism, 99.9% of people don't even understand the word "constructive" that well, so there will always be a "no, your stupid lulz" mentality everywhere.

[wish12oz]

Quite frankly I wouldn't have a problem if SE decided to shut down these forums because they were a terrible idea to begin with. Official forums pretty much always degenerate into a steaming pile of crap because the woefully uneducated and misinformed always seem to make it their stronghold. These are the type of people who don't understand what constructive criticism is and tend to think that anyone who disagrees with them is personally attacking them. These types of people can't have a calm, rational debate about in game mechanics or ideas for changes and resort to spamming the report button whenever anyone dares to have a differing opinion. Eventually the people who do know what they're doing get tired of trying to stem the unending tide of retardation and terrible ideas that they give up and the forums end up as a circle jerk of horrible ideas/suggestions and even worse ones.

I was going to say this, but I got beaten =|

[Darka]

If somebody comes off with ridiculously incorrect or stupid claims/comments, you'll find people will generally laugh/criticize that person, usually they're corrected first. Consistently denying facts/math for "opinion" or whatever is just annoying, and fallible logic steers other players in bad directions. That person then results to mashing the report button because he got butthurt, that's not acknowledging constructive criticism, so I find the OP quite self contradictory. Then a thread gets nuked along with whatever posts were actually good/correct.
These forums are meant to be for well thought out ideas, advice and debate, not QQ my job needs a buff or make Gukumatz easier to claim.

[Seriha]

Everyone's fondness for any given idea will vary, but to automatically disqualify job gripes or claim/congestion issues is kinda silly. If they can't be brought up here, then where? Arguably doing so on Alla or other sites hasn't done much good, since some things are pretty ancient in their brokenness or disuse.

Meanwhile, there are certainly some who try to hide behind the label of constructive criticism or some higher level of maturity. How that involves name calling, troll tags, questionable sigs, and rounding up their buddies to do the same is beyond me. The fact some now have 3+ warnings/suspensions and are still at it puzzles me. I'm beginning to wonder if SE banning people from the game for their behavior here was an empty threat, as by the confession of these "enlightened ones" elsewhere, that risk is the only reason that had been keeping them from nerdraging here. Knowing they mean it along with continued diligence is what can help make the place more enjoyable, not letting some behaviors slide because the perpetrators believe it has to be done that way to make their own points.

[Darka]

Job gripes are fine when people make good suggestions based on knowing the mechanics behind the job. Example, the abundance of threads with PLD "fixes" on every forum in existence, with one idea after another circling around "give PLD provoke or other enmity gaining abilities" is way off the mark with what is actually hurting the job. And those who read them time and again get frustrated, the OP then determines this disregard as "rude" and mashes the report button. That's not annoying? I'm all for debate and improvement of jobs, but the same stuff over and over with little to no thought put into it just gets irritating to read, you can't really blame all of the reactions shown by readers.

[Mrbeansman]

I'm sorry but personal attacks and name calling leave an impression which has a possibility of convincing the person to not make such comments in the future. It may be ugly but it works.

[HFX7686]

It seems to me that the Report button has become the Dislike button around here.

It's getting tiring having every post that disagrees with the OP reported as "offensive" on these boards. It's becoming silly.

If you want to be "professional" and have "useful discussion" then stop trying to shut up people with disagree with you and post logical, clear reasons why they are wrong without resorting to Report.

[Seriha]

It might work with your buddies, but for strangers on the internet, it's probably the quickest way to get them to cover their ears and stop listening. Or mash the report button, as some seem to fear.

There's another side that the "right" tend to overlook in their own pursuit of proving their points: Ignore it. The mere existence of a post does not automatically translate to an infection of stupid or even an indication of the general populace's thoughts on the given matter. Every time you reply to a bad idea, you're bumping the thread, possibly giving the creator of whatever bad idea fodder to argue and basically keep things circulating and lending to the illusion of an important topic. When you start arguing for the sake of arguing, then, you've pretty much lost the fight. I've lost count of the threads I saw that could've pretty much ended after the first reply or three, but someone had to go and poke the proverbial hornet's nest. And if there's one thing neither side likes, it's losing.

[Kensagaku]

While I agree it's not the nicest tactic (that I am unfortunately guilty of myself), at the same time it's the only way to drive a point home. There are those who are so stubborn, so set in their belief that they are right, that they will not back down for a moment to realize that someone is trying to explain something to them. It is beyond frustrating to try and tell someone that they may be wrong (note that I use the word may here; I have thought something only to be proven wrong as well. We're not perfect.) only to get "No, you're wrong, now shut up and stop flaming my thread, you troll." We get irritated, we snap back and retaliate.

Only in rare instances are attacks ever unjustified - maybe it doesn't make them a nicer tactic for it, but at the same time, any time someone is attacked on a forum, whether it is aimed at their reputation or at their credibility, odds are its earned. I won't deny that there are people who choose to troll "just for the lulz" as it's said, but usually a person who is being "trolled" generally has earned it in some way. Krystal is (was? haven't seen a post recently) a brilliant example, often putting down anyone who disagrees with her and insulting them in some way. Often she was seen acting very superior when she was called out on being wrong, giving her an inflated ego and causing her to pad out her "credibility" with false tales in order to once more show the stubborn "you're wrong" argument.

Sometimes stating your opinion isn't enough. The majority of the "trolls" here are dedicated to keeping the right information flowing through to the people who use this forum and seek to find information or push ideas through to SE. We want to help improve people, and enable them to pass accurate information onto their peers. We want to help improve the game too; we're not (for the most part, at very least I can speak for myself) trying to just push everyone over and laugh about it.

Sometimes there's a call for diplomacy on this; there are those who will listen and offer valid arguments rather than saying "No u!" or calling people out as trolls just because they disagree. These people can be reasoned with, and can point out ideas that we may not have considered, or might eventually agree with us, depending on the debate. These can go over well, and generally end amicably on both sides.

However, sometimes force is necessary as well, and it's a way of containing inaccurate information that should not be spread and as a result affect everyone's play quality. There are those who will dig their heels in and start spamming the report button so that they may remove any and all opposition that might poke a tiny little hole in someone's inflated ego. In order to stop that, sometimes different tactics are necessary.

My point here is, sometimes you can be nice, and sometimes you have to show the hard lessons in life. It all depends on the civility of those involved.

[/wall'o'text speech]

[Darka]

Yeah well such is life, if you say or do something stupid with friends, at work, in sports, other games, or anywhere else on the internet someone is going to call you out. I don't see why this is an exception, there's a difference between civility and the equivalent of someone running to their parents when their idea or suggestion is criticized. It's even worse when the end result could very well be a useful/informative thread getting nuked because someone can't take criticism.

[Seriha]

Well, there's always the old saying, "You can bring a horse to water, but your can't force them to drink."

Replace horse with a person, water with whatever info you're trying to convey, and drink with learning it. You may not educate them, but someone who comes later on could partake. Forum contributions aren't always immediate like that, and we can't even begin to fathom the impact our words make, good or bad, to those who simply lurk.

As is, I am (perhaps unfortunately) a bit of a white knight personality when it comes to my internet actions. I do not miss my youthful days of being bullied and am not at all interested in seeing that perpetuated in today's more tech-inclined era. I will never be convinced that malicious trolling makes a forum healthier and knowing that some random guy in his mid-20s decided to pwn a teenager isn't much of a win in my book. You'll never know what they'd do after, be it harm to themselves or transferring that rage and disappointment to others within reach. The concept of paying it forward is simply not limited to good deeds. In the end, a little FFXI misinformation is not the apocalypse.

[Karbuncle]

While I agree it's not the nicest tactic (that I am unfortunately guilty of myself), at the same time it's the only way to drive a point home. There are those who are so stubborn, so set in their belief that they are right, that they will not back down for a moment to realize that someone is trying to explain something to them. It is beyond frustrating to try and tell someone that they may be wrong (note that I use the word may here; I have thought something only to be proven wrong as well. We're not perfect.) only to get "No, you're wrong, now shut up and stop flaming my thread, you troll." We get irritated, we snap back and retaliate.

Only in rare instances are attacks ever unjustified - maybe it doesn't make them a nicer tactic for it, but at the same time, any time someone is attacked on a forum, whether it is aimed at their reputation or at their credibility, odds are its earned. I won't deny that there are people who choose to troll "just for the lulz" as it's said, but usually a person who is being "trolled" generally has earned it in some way. Krystal is (was? haven't seen a post recently) a brilliant example, often putting down anyone who disagrees with her and insulting them in some way. Often she was seen acting very superior when she was called out on being wrong, giving her an inflated ego and causing her to pad out her "credibility" with false tales in order to once more show the stubborn "you're wrong" argument.

Sometimes stating your opinion isn't enough. The majority of the "trolls" here are dedicated to keeping the right information flowing through to the people who use this forum and seek to find information or push ideas through to SE. We want to help improve people, and enable them to pass accurate information onto their peers. We want to help improve the game too; we're not (for the most part, at very least I can speak for myself) trying to just push everyone over and laugh about it.

Sometimes there's a call for diplomacy on this; there are those who will listen and offer valid arguments rather than saying "No u!" or calling people out as trolls just because they disagree. These people can be reasoned with, and can point out ideas that we may not have considered, or might eventually agree with us, depending on the debate. These can go over well, and generally end amicably on both sides.

However, sometimes force is necessary as well, and it's a way of containing inaccurate information that should not be spread and as a result affect everyone's play quality. There are those who will dig their heels in and start spamming the report button so that they may remove any and all opposition that might poke a tiny little hole in someone's inflated ego. In order to stop that, sometimes different tactics are necessary.

My point here is, sometimes you can be nice, and sometimes you have to show the hard lessons in life. It all depends on the civility of those involved.

[/wall'o'text speech]

This is the most accurately correct, Nicely Worded, Reasonable Speech on the subject in this thread (theres some close seconds).

And if the thread continues long past here, He just proved himself right. Because this entire speech should basically be the closing point of this thread.

Lets see how long until someone replies with a rebuttal to it.

[Kensagaku]

Too late, Krabby.

[Mrbeansman]

The concept of paying it forward is simply not limited to good deeds. In the end, a little FFXI misinformation is not the apocalypse.

If this was another Forum I might be inclined to agree but this isn't just some forum. When they post stuff like the raise abyssea cap to 75 shit it is our duty to crush them to show that they are a super minority, otherwise the developers might actually believe that there word is the word of all of us.

[Karbuncle]

Well, there's always the old saying, "You can bring a horse to water, but your can't force them to drink."

Replace horse with a person, water with whatever info you're trying to convey, and drink with learning it. You may not educate them, but someone who comes later on could partake. Forum contributions aren't always immediate like that, and we can't even begin to fathom the impact our words make, good or bad, to those who simply lurk.

As is, I am (perhaps unfortunately) a bit of a white knight personality when it comes to my internet actions. I do not miss my youthful days of being bullied and am not at all interested in seeing that perpetuated in today's more tech-inclined era. I will never be convinced that malicious trolling makes a forum healthier and knowing that some random guy in his mid-20s decided to pwn a teenager isn't much of a win in my book. You'll never know what they'd do after, be it harm to themselves or transferring that rage and disappointment to others within reach. The concept of paying it forward is simply not limited to good deeds. In the end, a little FFXI misinformation is not the apocalypse.

Isn't what i do to myself after reading quite possibly the stupidest, thick Headed, Stalker-like posts of some of these people, Important too?

I've always tried my best to word my objections fairly, and 9/10 someone will come back with some stupid over-the-top offensive crap that makes my brain bleed due to the misinformation spewed vehemently over the idea and the post.

I seriously try to remain as civil as possible, but I'm only human, when someone resorts to repeatedly making offensive whiny posts when i try to explain to them why its incorrect or wrong, i lost my temper. I'm human.

So, I think both sides can use this argument. I might go cut myself or beat my (DELETED) simply because i read something so stupid it made a tumor in my brain 1 centimeter larger, While those who see the words "I'm not a fan of your idea, Heres why" apparently rage offensively to it.

If you haven't guessed by now, I'm being mildly sarcastic, But theres a hint of truth to my statement. I think if the conversation begins with "Heres my idea." > "I'm not a fan of this, It seems unrealistic" > "YOUR A TROLL I HATE YOU", Then the person in question who started said idea generally deserves what he gets.

Expecting people to remain 100% Civil all the time is unrealistic, We're all human. Point is though, the people you're defending, are more often the not, the ones that start the entire problem. They take any form of criticism, or a different point of view, or a disagreement, as "TROLLING", and immediately go off the deep end, or spam the report button, or something equally very childish.

I agree with what you're saying, but its a 2-way Street, of which those you defend simply are not driving down (most of them).

(10 Bucks this will probably get "reported" too because it doesn't fall in line with the OP)



If this was another Forum I might be inclined to agree but this isn't just some forum. When they post stuff like the raise abyssea cap to 75 shit it is our duty to crush them to show that they are a super minority, otherwise the developers might actually believe that there word is the word of all of us.

Also this! Thank you Mrbean.

[Seriha]

I wouldn't even call my post an argument against it. Just my own tactic for handling it is a bit different. Leave someone arm-flailing alone long enough, they'll probably get bored and give up. If they turn around and self-bump their own topics, on some level, you're given justification to report them for spamming. So, umm... Time Out or Tough Love? I just think the latter crosses the line at times.

And as much as I can be a sarcastic ass RL, I know that doesn't always convey to text well. Need to be careful there, especially if people don't know you.

[Karbuncle]

I wouldn't even call my post an argument against it. Just my own tactic for handling it is a bit different. Leave someone arm-flailing alone long enough, they'll probably get bored and give up. If they turn around and self-bump their own topics, on some level, you're given justification to report them for spamming. So, umm... Time Out or Tough Love? I just think the latter crosses the line at times.

(I Feel I should point out, a lot of what i see here isn't "pointed at you" but more in general. Sorry if it comes off wrong)

I definitely agree sometimes people take it too far. But its not an instant thing, its Gradual.

My tactic has always been trying to nicely explain something, or to point out flaws, or to point out things unrealistic. I try to keep it nice, but 9/10 I still get an angry heated crybaby response for no reason other than they think I'm trolling just because I don't agree with them.

The people you're probably referring too generally try to keep their responses this way as well, they are simply human, and when someone resorts to screaming at them and calling them a troll simply because they don't agree with them, They lost their cool.

There are two sides to this solution, and one of them is the people in question who just "Spam report and scream troll" need to grow up. They can't take criticism, and expecting everyone else here to have the willpower of Gandhi is unrealistic. This is a tough love world, while i do not agree with Resorting to name-calling ever, especially in a "First Response" sometimes people lose their temper.

Again, its a 2-way road, and 99% of the people who just Cry "Troll" Refuse to ever believe their ideas are bad or wrong, and call everyone who tries to show them that, a troll.

I wish there was an easy way to try and explain what I'm saying :| its just I have a hard time with words.

[Darka]

Nobody cares if the OP of a stupid thread doesn't believe the people who correct him, but it gets tiring reiterating the same stuff to the same people. The very OP of this thread has posted incorrect information, denies any rebuttal and from as little as comments like "you're a moron" or "keep doing it wrong" (since there hasn't actually been any horribly offensive retorts) will report that user immediately. Then climb on a high horse and make these threads, ironic right? No it's not the end of the world, same can be said to those mashing report buttons from little comments, get over it, but at least research before saying something or it does just fall into the category of stupid. Then you will be told it's stupid. Don't be the type to refute and deny all criticism then make a thread about how others should give/receive criticism.
And as said above^ There's a lot of people who don't post here, and I'm sure we all want the best out of the game, so it is in our right to defend and debase ideas that could end up being implemented and destroying the game.

[Seriha]

Well, think of it this way, if you perceive they're being outright reasonable, they can't report a post that isn't made if people just ignore it. I've long since disagreed with upping the Abyssea cap, as an example given earlier, as it would just shift people back into niche party groups like syncing to colibri or astral burning, which on their own carry their own job discriminations. Rather, I tend to favor buffing other areas to wind up in line with some kind of complained standard, which roughly doubling out-world EXP was a step toward. I still think SE needs to do more, particularly when it comes to FoV in the 55-65 range, but I can at least accept it as a start.

On some level, I think all of this is asking for more participation from the community team. In part, they're often a phantom presence until the hammer comes down or they have something report. People might be less inclined to report or just generally post vindictively if they can see some of the CT has been chatting actively in a thread. We don't really know where they personally stand on some issues, and while impartiality may be considered a good thing at times, as said, we're all human. We know they have their biases and its always slightly possible that our majority concerns could get drowned out by a personal opinion when it comes time to ferry our "issues" to the JP side.

[Tamoa]

What Ken and Karbuncle are saying, is definitely true. Sometimes the stubbornness and the butthurt "NO U!" attitude of some misinformed people on this forum makes me want to slam my head into my desk in sheer frustration - that's when I go to BG to vent, lol.

As for the OP of this thread - he is throwing rocks from inside a glass house, he is certainly no better than those he calls out when you read this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6389-Revamp-Elemental-Spells-to-Be-More-Logical-and-Realistic.

[Eeek]

Forum contributions aren't always immediate like that, and we can't even begin to fathom the impact our words make, good or bad, to those who simply lurk.

I believe you worry too much about things outside your control. While we shouldn't completely ignore the impact of hurtful words, it's naive to pretend that they don't exist or hope that they never will exist. People will be people, no matter the venue of communication.


I will never be convinced that malicious trolling makes a forum healthier and knowing that some random guy in his mid-20s decided to pwn a teenager isn't much of a win in my book. You'll never know what they'd do after, be it harm to themselves or transferring that rage and disappointment to others within reach.

While I agree with the sentiment, this is a clear strawman argument. Not every person trolling is in their 20s, and not every person "under attack" is a defenseless teenager.


In the end, a little FFXI misinformation is not the apocalypse.

This sentiment is antithetical to humanity's ongoing, millennia-long search for knowledge in all its forms. While FFXI information is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, the search and constant refinement of our collective information on FFXI is a reflection of humanity's curiosity and drive to discover and understand the world.

If you think the trolling here is bad, spend some time reading academic journals or attending conferences. You'd think that academics would engage in the purest of debate, but instead, it's no less combative than discussions here. It's as political as the discussions here. The same factions form in academia and they have here.

To illustrate that point, spend some time googling (if you're so inclined) and look into all the personal attacks suffered by Darwin after the publication of On the Origin of Species.

[Karbuncle]

Well, think of it this way, if you perceive they're being outright reasonable, they can't report a post that isn't made if people just ignore it. I've long since disagreed with upping the Abyssea cap, as an example given earlier, as it would just shift people back into niche party groups like syncing to colibri or astral burning, which on their own carry their own job discriminations. Rather, I tend to favor buffing other areas to wind up in line with some kind of complained standard, which roughly doubling out-world EXP was a step toward. I still think SE needs to do more, particularly when it comes to FoV in the 55-65 range, but I can at least accept it as a start.



Edit: See Eeeks.

Again, I'd like to say i agree with you on a lot of points, I don't think the first step should be angry responses, or name calling. But I also try to say, 9/10, The people who first resort to "name calling" and "Anger" are generally the people who come in threads like this saying they were "Trolled".

I hate to say this because i know I'll probably be reported for even speaking his name, But Rambus, the OP, has been guilty of basically flaming and insulting anyone who disagrees with his idea, No matter what. He's reported people for literally just disagreeing with him. He's actually the only person on my Blocklist, cause in another thread i tried to explain something too him, and he got me so upset i lost my temper. So instead of losing my temper again, I've resorted to just not ever responding to him.

And to KORPG, no, I don't think anyone will immediately reject someone based no past interactions, This is an unfair assumption. the only person who has earned that status is Hordecore, Cause he is most certainly an obvious troll. I personally judge each post individually, I can't remember any of your names let alone the generic Avatars, So i look at each post differently, I remember a few of you, like 4-5, but everyone else looks the same.

What you're likely seeing is repeat offenses. When someone makes a terrible idea, and in turn receives "constructive criticism", and goes on a "YOU'RE A TROLL" rampage, he loses some credibility, If he repeatedly does these things in multiple threads (Read: Hordecore) people lose respect for them. this isn't exclusive to here, thats life. Thats how things work in the real word. If you do stupid things over and over, you lose credibility, and thats how life works.

I always give people a chance regardless, But you cannot blame someone if they see a name and go "Oh great", especially if time and time over that said person has proven to be hot-tempered, or unreasonable. Its like on BG, i'll use Thorny as an Example. The dudes an over-the-top dick who felt the need to repeatedly shove his knoweldge down everyones throat. no one sees a Thorny post and expects anything other than high-horse offensive 12-year-old-insult crap. He was knowledgeable, but he was a dick.

What i'm trying to say, just like real life, everyone develops a "Persona". after multiple interactions, you can pretty much know how someone will react. But in fairness, I'm sure a lot of people, I know i do, give each and every post its own logical reasonable chance.


(OMG WALL OF TEXT I RAMBLE TOO MUCH)

[Eeek]

(OMG WALL OF TEXT I RAMBLE TOO MUCH)

You made me read words. Lots and lots of words! :o

/reported

[Darka]

obv needs a hobby

ilu <3

(wat I need 10 characters ignore this part)

[Kensagaku]

(Fellow Wall'o'text)
(OMG WALL OF TEXT I RAMBLE TOO MUCH)

I know your pain. =(

[Eeek]

I know your pain. =(

Not enough words.

/reported

[Seriha]

I guess in the end, I'm not quite defending those who are deserving what they get, but rather future targets once the current are run off, banned, or whatever. Using the same tactics for "lesser offenses against the truth" can get pretty murky and lead to an inhospitable atmosphere where people might be too afraid to post for fear of ridicule over even the simplest questions. Hell, I know I've been targeted before for my prolonged desire for RDM (melee) buffs or just even posting moderately on Alla for 8+ years, but I've perhaps been too stubborn to just roll over and die because some angry kiddies disagreed and do bring my own fights to them.

Eventually, some do just need to sit back and remember this is a game, though. I know that statement is lit dynamite to some, but not everyone plays to relive their days of Algebra II. Some just wanna see cute moogles doing moogle-y things, so of course they won't know about haste caps, fTP, and so on.

[Karbuncle]

Eventually, some do just need to sit back and remember this is a game, though. I know that statement is lit dynamite to some, but not everyone plays to relive their days of Algebra II. Some just wanna see cute moogles doing moogle-y things, so of course they won't know about haste caps, fTP, and so on.

Quick thing(LOL YA RIGHT INCOMING WALL OF TEXT). No one here is going to yell at someone for not understanding haste Values.

Its when they act like their way to play the game is right/better than anyone else and attempt to spread mis-information to everyone.

I remember a while back there was an incredibly informative haste-thread made here, and someone came in there babbling about using 1 gear set for everything and it being so cool and right, people jumped down her throat like no tomorrow because she was spewing false information as fact.

Its when people claim those who "Relive their Algebra II" days are trolling-elitist who can't have fun where the problems start. Or when people act like the only way to "Have fun" with the game is to be vehemently ignorant to game mechanics. When i try to tell them "Some people have fun by being the best, thats okay too" i get "SHUT UP TROLL".

Take a look at the "A ninja without throwing..." thread, it started as a minor disagreement on the idea, and blew up into a huge 200 post fest between like 4 people (me included) because the OP Simply did not listen to logic or how the idea he wanted simply would not fit in FFXI. Eventually some ideas came from the thread, but it was a mess.

I feel i should remind you i agree with a lot of your posts, but you appear to have a lot of misconceptions. These people will not just blindly "ALGEBRA" someone, Its when that someone begins throwing their misinformation at people like its correct that the other people will come in, and tell them they're wrong.

[Kensagaku]

You're right, Seriha. The "lesser offenses" as you put it aren't really that bad. Usually these get a reply along the lines of "actually, I believe this is the correct answer" and followed by a discussion. Some of our more mathematical folks tend to overdo it (I know my head starts spinning when numbers get thrown out in rapid sequence!) but for the most part, usually the "lesser offenses" are simply responded to in a civil discussion with a gentle guidance and/or extreme mathing that makes everyone go "What? @_@". Usually the former, thankfully.

However, stubbornly fighting against these discussions is what gets us worked up. You brought up the haste cap; that's a good argument in my favor here. Naturebeckles was constantly stating things like "It's best to TP in CHR, DEX, and STR gear because they're also used in WS mods" because they didn't like to gear swap. They discounted haste a good deal. People stated that it was best not to fulltime said gear because it would hurt your overall performance. This led to a whole stubborn argument about how hitting the haste cap isn't all that awesome and you shouldn't gear swap because you blink and don't get cures (Which is an annoying argument for me in particular... haven't we pushed the <stal> or <stpt> point enough? Is it so hard!? x_X) and so on and so forth. It's posters like this that get the brunt of ire from those of us who can't take the (for lack of better words, and I apologize) stupid that's being slammed at us time and again.

We don't expect people to know all of the game mechanics like some of the experts. I know I don't know everything. But people claiming to be "the best" with clearly inaccurate knowledge is likely to get the worst when they continue to insist that they're right despite all the obvious logic pointed out to them.

Edit: Karby, I'm mad at you. You ninja'd me.

Edited Edit: YOU EVEN USED MY EXAMPLE. GAH. ;~;

[Darka]

I hate that "It's a game!11!" argument, yeah it is, and it is for everyone else playing. But it's a community game, if one player sucks and falls behind, you drag your group down with you, suck up their very real time. In any community event, be it games or interaction with other people, you don't just get to do whatever you want. Spreading misinformation exacerbates the problem. I'd expect most people would feel that way.

[Seriha]

Sounds more like you and others got trolled in those particular threads, then. >.>

[Karbuncle]

Sounds more like you and others got trolled in those particular threads, then. >.>

LOL, If you were only there.

My god, If you were there.

I think the thread is still up in General somewhere, go find it, then visit their FFXIAH Page, Its not a troll by any means.

Stupid = Stupid, not Stupid = Troll.



Edit: Karby, I'm mad at you. You ninja'd me.

Edited Edit: YOU EVEN USED MY EXAMPLE. GAH. ;~;

You used it better^^

[Greatguardian]

Sounds more like you and others got trolled in those particular threads, then. >.>

I'd agree (being one of those involved in the above threads as well), if I didn't know that people can and will most definitely be that dense without trolling. The worst part about all of it, really, is that even if they were the ones trolling, it's the well-read players who are attempting to help the playerbase as a whole who end up getting smashed down by both the Community and the Rules on the forums.

Unfortunately, being stupid is not an offense. Spreading blatant misinformation is not an offense. Trying to tell every new player that signs up to the forums that "Goblins Aggro to Sound" is not an offense, but for some reason, correcting these people and attempting to clear up their lies is. It is no longer even a matter of keeping the conversation polite and mature when simply saying "You're Wrong", even when it is a statement of fact rather than a personal attack, becomes grounds for Moderation. Granted, I know this is not entirely the fault of the Moderation team either. This sort of forced overreaction happens when people treat the Report button like a Get Out Of Wrong Free Card.

The OP of this very thread has been known to make callous, abrasive personal attacks on multiple other posters himself. Worst of all, he does so without actually knowing what he's arguing about (See: "NIN AF3 Needs more AGI" thread in GD). While he'll probably report me for this post, I do legitimately feel it is a prolific form of irony that the first to cast stones regarding "Personal Attacks" is no less guilty than any of the people he's criticizing. The OP of this thread, in that thread, demonstrates the worst kind of personal attack, as not only does it deliberately put down another player but it also contributes absolutely nothing positive to the thread and, in fact, only serves to further the spread of misinformation.

Probably the simplest solution to this would be to ensure that the GMs and those moderating the forums have an understanding of the game they're moderating. While I've historically been an advocate of the GM staff from a customer service perspective, it would be impossible to deny that the staff has shown an impeccable lack of understanding of the game. From being asked "What zone is Despot in?" to other such things, it is quite possible that FFXI jargon is as alien to them as theoretical math is to most of the playerbase (let alone Algebra II, from personal experience).

For a player, a thread OP may as well be making a topic called "Gravity is wrong. I think we should fly using the Heart of the Cards and Oxygen causes cancer.", and of course responses are going to range from "Uh... what?" to "You're just ... dumb."

But to some GMs, that same thread may as well be called "The quantum fluctuations in the 11th dimension of space-time correlate inversely to the relativistic attraction between microorganisms", and they'd only be able to see that the responses to the OP were rude at best.

Unfortunately, at the rate things are going, the only intelligent, well-meaning posters on this board are going to be banned from the forums indefinitely. Once that happens, I honestly do pity whoever comes here expecting to find half-decent information or feedback from a playerbase that actually plays the game's content.

[Karbuncle]

As an Addendum, It feels like when someones reported, The person who deletes/Edits it doesn't even read the post.

I've seen some very well-thought-out nicely worded rebuttals to bad ideas deleted/modded simply because the person they were discussing with Abused the "Report" button.

Feels kinda like "oh he's got 4 reports, Better just delete it and send him an Email telling him to stop, Who needs to read if its a legit report?"

I don't say this is true for everything, But it feels like it after reading some things that have been reported/deleted...

[Sayelle]

I <3 you Krabnuckle and Kens.

On topic, the sad thing is that I'm sure sometime today that Rambus will come in here and start spewing fire from his mouth and shooting lasers from his eyes and yelling about how we are all missing the point. Which is really sad because I think for the most part we are having a decent conversation about forum behaviors and the root cause behind them.

[Tamoa]

You brought up the haste cap; that's a good argument in my favor here. Naturebeckles was constantly stating things like "It's best to TP in CHR, DEX, and STR gear because they're also used in WS mods" because they didn't like to gear swap. They discounted haste a good deal. People stated that it was best not to fulltime said gear because it would hurt your overall performance. This led to a whole stubborn argument about how hitting the haste cap isn't all that awesome and you shouldn't gear swap because you blink and don't get cures (Which is an annoying argument for me in particular... haven't we pushed the <stal> or <stpt> point enough? Is it so hard!? x_X) and so on and so forth. It's posters like this that get the brunt of ire from those of us who can't take the (for lack of better words, and I apologize) stupid that's being slammed at us time and again.


Not only that, but her very first post in that thread was effectively insulting everyone that acknowledges haste as a valuable stat, by calling them (us) haste whores.

Bleh, found the thread and the post:


I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

Here is the thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1847-Haste-and-You...-A-guide-to-the-misinformed.

When you make a post like that in a thread which is meant to be informative (and it was, up until that point), adding absolutely nothing of value but indirectly saying "u r dumb lolololol" - you basically reap what you sow.

[Kensagaku]

As an Addendum, It feels like when someones reported, The person who deletes/Edits it doesn't even read the post.

I've seen some very well-thought-out nicely worded rebuttals to bad ideas deleted/modded simply because the person they were discussing with Abused the "Report" button.

Feels kinda like "oh he's got 4 reports, Better just delete it and send him an Email telling him to stop, Who needs to read if its a legit report?"

I don't say this is true for everything, But it feels like it after reading some things that have been reported/deleted...

I agree with you on this point, Karby. I've seen a number of posts just go completely poof when they've contained relevant information. In the past mods have taken the time to edit posts because they went against the forum guidelines, and that's reasonable. But I haven't seen many edits lately; most of the time they're just up and deleted. That does bother me. =\

[Yugl]

I wrote this last night, but decided to scrap it; however, it has become relevant to the discussion:

One of the biggest lessons BG has learned when it comes to infighting is 1) Update ideas 2) Factual information. The first is very discernible following forum changes. We previously separated Advanced and Standard. Advanced contained news information and "important" discussion. Standard was pretty much what we now call "Randomest Question Thread" (Better know a thread). Since standard kept producing better results as far as testing went, they decided to merge both forums. However, that did not end major arguments. It was not until we separated news information from advanced-standard that we saw a noticeable decline in major arguments. The ones that did remain were primarily fights over game data (Formulas and such), in-game rivalries displaced onto the forums, and moral issues (Windower/Jumping to WoE Fights/Other stuff). If we were to rearrange these, you'll see that the order of "resolvability" is as follows:

1. Game data
2. News information (Update ideas)
3. In-game rivalries
4. Moral issues

The last three have the most in common. Particularly, because they have no, or every feeble, objective criterion for evaluation. Without this objective criterion, you cannot end these debates. This is what you call politics. I know Japan has primarily been locked down by the LDP and Keiretsu + Gov = Mucho good times, so SE doesn't witness this, but politics has no end precisely because what constitutes the end is not objectively defined. News information is the least "non-objective" of these because there is a general progression towards wanting to improve the class and balance. Nevertheless, the level of balance (And whether it even exists) and mechanism of balance leave room for discontent. Game data has a very objective criterion: To learn the mechanics of the game. Assuming this isn't shifting every hour (i.e. a very reasonable assumption for those who are incapable of distinguishing assumption from its negative connotation), we have a general sense of what we want to do. We want to predict numbers before they occur in the game. Hence, debates are resolved via accuracy. At the same time, that is not always the case, but it is not because there is no objective criteria, it is because of the poster themselves. The next step is to ask: How do I discern the individual deviating from this objective criterion and fueling a pointless argument? That's going to be specific to the issue and unfortunately, that means you either need to hope all participants are "rational" (Doesn't actually exist, but it works for explaining it to you) or you need to be able to tell which posters are just flaunting posts. An example of the former is Rambus in the Elemental/Rational/Logic thread posted earlier. Despite Byrthnoth showing that Rambus's order of operations was incorrect, Rambus continued to spout absolute nonsense. This is not something that you can resolve via rule of the majority either. Most people don't know the mechanics and the report button becomes a "Vote for your favorite!" mechanic. It takes expertise to solve these issues.

In short, you'll need to lock or displace 3 and 4. Since you're looking for game ideas, you need to moderate 2 less than you have been. Modding the first takes expertise in the game or you should let the situation moderate itself.