Nerf Beastmaster

[Viking]

Stop making beastmaster the strongest job in the game....
Its supposed to be a job to let players farm mid and easy lvl content solo.
Not supposed to be a job for high lvl content. When we have a top party of 5-6 and do escha t3 and similar content and then hear the same can be triod by 3 bsts it makes players leave then game. Dont let the noobs behind the pet ruin the game completely pls. Leave some for old players who still enjoy the hunt to bring down hard content in traditional style.

[Urat]

The people who are trioing T3s as bsts have top of the line, best in slot gear. They spent hundreds of millions of gil perfecting their gear and maxing their skirmish augments.

Any other DD job can get similar results with the same kind of money and effort dumped into their gear.

The only reason you are hearing about it for bst so much at the moment is bst is one of the funner jobs to play, so when hardcore players choose to pimp out a job, they choose bst to pimp out.

If they had chosen pup or smn or geo or pld instead, they'd still have the same results.

[Zarchery]

The irony of a Samurai saying this makes me tingle.

[Draylo-]

The people who are trioing T3s as bsts have top of the line, best in slot gear. They spent hundreds of millions of gil perfecting their gear and maxing their skirmish augments.

Any other DD job can get similar results with the same kind of money and effort dumped into their gear.

The only reason you are hearing about it for bst so much at the moment is bst is one of the funner jobs to play, so when hardcore players choose to pimp out a job, they choose bst to pimp out.

If they had chosen pup or smn or geo or pld instead, they'd still have the same results.

No, they wouldn't. Your post just confirms you have no idea what the situation is like atm. A PUP keeping up with a BST, on anything? That is hilarious. Just had a pixie fight in escha where two bsts spammed aoe grasshopper for 23~30k nonstop every 10s and killed all three with ease. I don't see a PUP doing that at all.

[Malthar]

Um... Tegmina buffet is every 20 seconds. :-D

[Ulth]

The people who are trioing T3s as bsts have top of the line, best in slot gear. They spent hundreds of millions of gil perfecting their gear and maxing their skirmish augments.

Any other DD job can get similar results with the same kind of money and effort dumped into their gear.

The only reason you are hearing about it for bst so much at the moment is bst is one of the funner jobs to play, so when hardcore players choose to pimp out a job, they choose bst to pimp out.

If they had chosen pup or smn or geo or pld instead, they'd still have the same results.

Eh, I wouldn't say people are playing bst because it more fun. Bst is being bandwagoned for the same reason rng got bandwagoned. It's the new safe way of clearing content. I'm sure there are lots of people who like it, but for most it's just a means to an end. Still no reason to ruin the fun of the people who do like it, not like that has stopped people before.

[Catmato]

Um... Tegmina buffet is every 20 seconds. :-D
Two BSTs. 20 seconds each. 10 seconds apart.

[Malthar]

If one bst can do tegmina buffet every 20 seconds, and two bst can do it every 10 seconds, how long will it take three bsts?

[Viking]

The samurai part is a typo. I am pld rng thf mains.

[Viking]

100% wrong. I have top pimped jobs and we do clear theese things but we are just very annoyed how poor players (yes i know they suck until they got bst) suddenly clear top content with ease. Beastmaster is overpowered atm. that is 100% certain.

[Catmato]

If one bst can do tegmina buffet every 20 seconds, and two bst can do it every 10 seconds, how long will it take three bsts?

47 kph

1234567890

[Kensagaku]

100% wrong. I have top pimped jobs and we do clear theese things but we are just very annoyed how poor players (yes i know they suck until they got bst) suddenly clear top content with ease. Beastmaster is overpowered atm. that is 100% certain.

I disagree. There's a vast difference between bandwagon BSTs and ones who have put effort into gearing, farming Job Points, etc. A bandwagon BST who has just picked up the job has a 25 second Ready timer generally (-5 from merits), and maybe 20 if they went to get a Charmer's Merlin. Most don't have the ASA legs, or the Gift to reduce timers further. That's already twice as long on TP moves as a BST who has put their time and effort into improving their job. And then there's a difference on gear for pet damage or survivability; doing Sinister Reign with my linkshell, we took two BSTs, one of which who was geared and one who pretty much slapped gear together. The former was hitting fairly well for ~3-4k damage (and he's not capped out on gear by a long shot; I'd rate him mid-ranged at best), while the second whiffed often, and his TP moves hit ~1.5-2k with the same pet, same move. Additionally, the second was burning through pets far faster, and even had periods where his timers were down where he could only sit on the side. Gear makes a huge difference, and alters DPS by a large margin. A party of bandwagon BSTs isn't going to be clearing the top tier content as efficiently or effectively as a group of solid DDs or a well-rounded party.

[dasva]

Two BSTs. 20 seconds each. 10 seconds apart.
With 18 blms you can spam Aoes every .1 seconds!!!

[dasva]

100% wrong. I have top pimped jobs and we do clear theese things but we are just very annoyed how poor players (yes i know they suck until they got bst) suddenly clear top content with ease. Beastmaster is overpowered atm. that is 100% certain.

Um anything that a bsts can throw pets at without decent dt sets without having to resort to throwing a lot of extra pets at is content that eminent geared DDs can handle. Most high end stuff involves great DT sets and reward sets and even then often still best to have a player do the tanking

[Zarchery]

The samurai part is a typo. I am pld rng thf mains.

The irony based tingling has progressed to full on vibrations now.

[Allestra]

This game is barely surviving, maybe not worry so much about nerfing jobs k?

It still will take a min. # of ppl paying for this game to keep it alive at all.

No one knows what the number will be ,its time people realize that making even more ppl not enjoy their job and potentially just saying "to heck with ffxi" isnt keeping the servers open..its directly shortening the time the servers will stay running.

So i assume those asking for nerfs (to any job) actually want ffxi to close down much sooner?...keep taking away and it will.

If anything se should be boosting jobs, all of them!! Ffxi is not secure or a guarantee anymore.

Stop nerfing se....start adding and boosting all jobs to be equal.

[Draylo-]

They want the game to be fair as it can be, it isn't now. New Escha zone, same issue, BST OP all over the place. Magic resistant mobs, np for BST. Just level the playing field and you might even get more people to come back that quit over it. It works both ways, when SE balances things out it makes people come back that quit over it and the people who can't stand it can quit or level a new job.

[Malthar]

They want the game to be fair as it can be, it isn't now. New Escha zone, same issue, BST OP all over the place. Magic resistant mobs, np for BST. Just level the playing field and you might even get more people to come back that quit over it. It works both ways, when SE balances things out it makes people come back that quit over it and the people who can't stand it can quit or level a new job.

Dray,

I think they should nerf blu. I was in a CP party with me on pld as puller and two blu's as killers fighting bats/umbrils/dullans(sp:), and we were pulling over 90JP's/hr; Ninety job points per hour! That is absolutely ridiculous! No job should be able to do that. BST can't even come close to that number.

Don't you agree that they should nerf blu?

[Draylo-]

It could just as easily be any other job bringing up this issue. For your information I've done those JP numbers with BST at that same camp.

[Malthar]

It could just as easily be any other job bringing up this issue. For your information I've done those JP numbers with BST at that same camp.

So, what you're saying is that both bst and blu need to be nerfed?

[Draylo-]

Be nice Malthar lol

[Malthar]

:-D

Draylo...

Tell SE to give us a shield.

[Inx]

BST should be kept as it is, for very obvious reasons if you actually stop and think about it for a minute.

BST, was the original soloers job. However with the advent of trusts, any job can solo practically whatever they want! When you can create a party of npc's to cover whatever roles you want, why would anyone choose BST? Its not the only job you can cleave with, it doesn't come close to a main-job THF's TH level for loot, it doesn't even have particularly high survivabilty if the pet isn't tanking all the hits.

In a nutshell, trusts have effectively made BST's original niche redundant, so it actually needs its new role as high-tier DD. Unlike THF which will always have its fallback role as loot-king, BST has nowhere to go.

What kind of bugs me is this idea that BST, even with tip-top gear, is this unstoppable wrecking machine. Pets are extremely susceptible to spammed enfeebling magic given the timer waits on the only means to remove the status, and should you find yourself without a pet and waiting on the timer to recall, you are basically crippled for up to an entire "weakness" duration. Jug's white damage is still inconsequential, and so effects like amnesia are devastating.

A well-geared BST is a formidable asset in a party for sure, but so are most jobs given equal build quality and level of support.

The reality is that bandwagoning is more about perception than neccessity. BST gets nerfed and the next popular job is going to be the one perceived to offer the current "safest" path to victory. Its not fixing anything, its just going to annoy the hell out of people who have invested a ton of time and gil in the job. Real money too as well, as I suspect BST's current fad has spiked sales of ASA considerably.

If people think the current situation is unbalanced, they should be lobbying for improvements to other jobs. Nerfing accomplishes nothing but to leave a bad-taste in the mouths of those affected - something that isn't wise at this stage in the game's life.

[Ulth]

Ah yes, Thief, king of soloing outdated content for gil. I'm tired of hearing this weak-ass excuse. Saying thief will always be invited for treasure hunter is like saying scholar will always be invited for Accession. Anyone who /thf get TH2, and with the chaac belt that's TH3, the last TH that matters. Only it's worst than that as some jobs don't even need to /thf to get to TH3 and TH4. Ranger's bounty shot starts at 4 and can go higher, but why would you even bother TH3 is the last that matters. Dancer just got a non rare dagger, that is amazing for main or offhand that happens to have treasure hunter on them. That means dancer gets TH3 with their subjob locked in dynamis. Which I honestly don't even care about, and really no one should care about how well a job can farm in outdated events.

What matters is current end game content. Only here's the kicker, not all endgame content will benefit from treasure hunter. Sinister rein doesn't, Skirmish doesn't, delve doesn't, Unity doesn't. Probably others too. It can be hard to tell what events that actually have drops that are affected by treasure hunter, and not just guaranteed drops that share the same slot and aren't affected by treasure hunter. But as I said before even if treasure hunter is a factor, you could just use a ranger to have treasure hunter put on and still not worry about a front line DD adding to the work the whm has to do.

[Inx]

I also play THF, so I'm quite aware of what its used for.

For the record, THF is a fine DD in all end-game content and high TH's usefulness is beyond doubt in stuff like Escha, Incursion, and Vagary.

I wasn't happy with that particular nerf either (Rudra I could understand but stuff like Mercy Stroke ?!?), but that was at least understandable given the sheer numbers 2 thieves spamming darkness skillchains could pump out.

The other thing about THF is that no job gains more as a soloist from trusts. Instant SA/TA partners to buff your damage and really allow you to use your enmity control abilities.

Bottom line, given its enhanced movement abilities, excellent survivability and dps, for general stuff I'd take my THF out ahead of my BST 9 times out of 10. It's in a far from bad spot utility-wise right now.

[Ulth]

It's like you didn't even read my post ;;

In case you didn't actually read it and needed a TL;DR it's high TH is useless. It's a pointless number to make superstitious people feel better.

As for end game content, nobody does Incursion anymore, cash drops in Vagary are guaranteed, and only the hard thing to get is the platemail. Assuming it isn't like the defending ring and treasure hunter affects it, the insignificant amount that it would is pretty much negated by the chance of the thf dying and losing the NM opposed to a rng who can bounty shot from a safe distance. I honestly don't know about Escha though. Like I said hard to tell what drops are guaranteed and just sharing slots.

I also think it's funny that you pick thf over bst for thf's excellent survivability.

Anyway I'm not here to debate thf's dps vs other jobs. I'm here because of the garbage you are spouting about treasure hunter being a justification for nerfing thf. Bottom line, it's not. It's not a thf only ability. And it's also not a fun way to play the game. Being only invited for TH and then not getting to contribute to the fight is not fun. I had enough of that garbage back during Abyssea.

[Tidis]

THF survivability is garbage against anything that counts.

[Draylo-]

It's like you didn't even read my post ;;

In case you didn't actually read it and needed a TL;DR it's high TH is useless. It's a pointless number to make superstitious people feel better.

As for end game content, nobody does Incursion anymore, cash drops in Vagary are guaranteed, and only the hard thing to get is the platemail. Assuming it isn't like the defending ring and treasure hunter affects it, the insignificant amount that it would is pretty much negated by the chance of the thf dying and losing the NM opposed to a rng who can bounty shot from a safe distance. I honestly don't know about Escha though. Like I said hard to tell what drops are guaranteed and just sharing slots.

I also think it's funny that you pick thf over bst for thf's excellent survivability.

Anyway I'm not here to debate thf's dps vs other jobs. I'm here because of the garbage you are spouting about treasure hunter being a justification for nerfing thf. Bottom line, it's not. It's not a thf only ability. And it's also not a fun way to play the game. Being only invited for TH and then not getting to contribute to the fight is not fun. I had enough of that garbage back during Abyssea.

He just doesn't want the job to be nerfed so he is pulling excuses out of his rear.

[Malthar]

What about nerfing blue mage? It is sooooo overpowered right now! OMG! Why isn't anyone talking about it?

[Tidis]

What about nerfing blue mage? It is sooooo overpowered right now! OMG! Why isn't anyone talking about it?

I think they get away with it because most BLU are garbage and the good BLU stay under the radar.

[Inx]

It's like you didn't even read my post ;;

In case you didn't actually read it and needed a TL;DR it's high TH is useless. It's a pointless number to make superstitious people feel better.

As for end game content, nobody does Incursion anymore, cash drops in Vagary are guaranteed, and only the hard thing to get is the platemail. Assuming it isn't like the defending ring and treasure hunter affects it, the insignificant amount that it would is pretty much negated by the chance of the thf dying and losing the NM opposed to a rng who can bounty shot from a safe distance. I honestly don't know about Escha though. Like I said hard to tell what drops are guaranteed and just sharing slots.

I also think it's funny that you pick thf over bst for thf's excellent survivability.

Anyway I'm not here to debate thf's dps vs other jobs. I'm here because of the garbage you are spouting about treasure hunter being a justification for nerfing thf. Bottom line, it's not. It's not a thf only ability. And it's also not a fun way to play the game. Being only invited for TH and then not getting to contribute to the fight is not fun. I had enough of that garbage back during Abyssea.

For a start off at no point did I say TH was any justification for nerfing THF, the obvious reason was that cranking out 30-50k Rudra's back to back for even bigger darkness skillchains kinda put every other DD out of business! The point about TH is that it still pretty much ensures THF has a place in most endgame stuff, superstition or not the people I roll with would rather see TH10+ on an NM than not! So THF is only the 3rd or 4th best DD rather than top dog... its still good enough to contribute to practically anything if the rest of your group is competent.

I cared enough about THF to make a 119 Mandau, so whinging to me about how badly done by you are isn't gonna' fly son :D Seems to me your problem is with the people you roll with, and nerfing BST isn't going to fix that particular problem!

[bazookatooth]

It's like you didn't even read my post ;;

In case you didn't actually read it and needed a TL;DR it's high TH is useless. It's a pointless number to make superstitious people feel better.

As for end game content, nobody does Incursion anymore, cash drops in Vagary are guaranteed, and only the hard thing to get is the platemail. Assuming it isn't like the defending ring and treasure hunter affects it, the insignificant amount that it would is pretty much negated by the chance of the thf dying and losing the NM opposed to a rng who can bounty shot from a safe distance. I honestly don't know about Escha though. Like I said hard to tell what drops are guaranteed and just sharing slots.

I also think it's funny that you pick thf over bst for thf's excellent survivability.

Anyway I'm not here to debate thf's dps vs other jobs. I'm here because of the garbage you are spouting about treasure hunter being a justification for nerfing thf. Bottom line, it's not. It's not a thf only ability. And it's also not a fun way to play the game. Being only invited for TH and then not getting to contribute to the fight is not fun. I had enough of that garbage back during Abyssea.

I play THF regularly in current events and since I'm a nice guy, I'll give you a pro tip. That GEO that casts all those cool buffs for those meany weany BSTs that won't let you play with them can also cast luopans and indis that greatly reduce damage from the NM. So can your bard. You can do every single event currently without a single pet job in your group. It just requires using your brain and planning accordingly. You are going to find that out the hard way when they stop letting BSTs carry you next month.

[Tidis]

Beastmaster (8/27)

A report on the planned adjustments for Beastmaster.

We are planning on making the adjustment to pet command distance in the September update. This adjustment is being done to add greater risk to playing Beastmaster without directly affecting their damage output.

The following commands will be affected:

Ready/Sic/Spur/Run Wild/Reward
Nerf almost confirmed.

[bazookatooth]

Nerf almost confirmed.

Congratulations. You can almost start complaining about how everything is being done by RNG and SMN only and how they need to be nerfed.

[Tidis]

Congratulations. You can almost start complaining about how everything is being done by RNG and SMN only and how they need to be nerfed.

I'll get right on that.

[Inx]

I'll get right on that.

Now just watch as every bst caps out on gear over the next 2 weeks then stops playing for the next 2 months.

[Ulth]

For a start off at no point did I say TH was any justification for nerfing THF, the obvious reason was that cranking out 30-50k Rudra's back to back for even bigger darkness skillchains kinda put every other DD out of business! The point about TH is that it still pretty much ensures THF has a place in most endgame stuff, superstition or not the people I roll with would rather see TH10+ on an NM than not! So THF is only the 3rd or 4th best DD rather than top dog... its still good enough to contribute to practically anything if the rest of your group is competent.

I cared enough about THF to make a 119 Mandau, so whinging to me about how badly done by you are isn't gonna' fly son :D Seems to me your problem is with the people you roll with, and nerfing BST isn't going to fix that particular problem!


In a nutshell, trusts have effectively made BST's original niche redundant, so it actually needs its new role as high-tier DD. Unlike THF which will always have its fallback role as loot-king, BST has nowhere to go.
No that is pretty much what you just said. THF doesn't need to be a high-tier DD, because of treasure hunter. Unlike bst who should be one because anyone can solo normal mobs now. And yeah, if thf was doing 30-50k Rudra's it would have needed nerfed but it wasn't. Average was more like low mid twenties. Of course if you were using something like Mandau it would me more like high teens.

My problem isn't what ever lame strategy people are using for easy clears today. I didn't go rng for AAs and Marjami, and I didn't go mnk for Tojil. My problem is the things you are saying are wrong. Then people hear it and they think it's true.

Yeah plus if pet mab sets on taeon are so easy you could instead just put regular mab augments on it and do this....
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/435a0911164aa6950be87f2c9ad04cb3.png


on a job I haven't actually brought to an event since soa came out btw and minimal support. Also technically rng isn't a melee but same difference bst or war can do just as good with cloudsplitter. Cor with leaden. Sam can spam ws much faster than anything. smn can do 99999 flaming crushes a couple of times a minute. Thf can still hit a good 50-60k on dmg neutral mobs if pimped enough. Nin can ws almost as fast as a sam. drk probably in a bad spot though
I'm tired of hearing nonsense like this on the official forums. Stop spreading misinformation. This! This is my problem.

I play THF regularly in current events and since I'm a nice guy, I'll give you a pro tip. That GEO that casts all those cool buffs for those meany weany BSTs that won't let you play with them can also cast luopans and indis that greatly reduce damage from the NM. So can your bard. You can do every single event currently without a single pet job in your group. It just requires using your brain and planning accordingly. You are going to find that out the hard way when they stop letting BSTs carry you next month.

And stop it. You don't know me, and if you actually read anything I have said about bst you would know better. My solution for the problem with bst is adding gear to make the benefits of fighting along side the pet out weigh using charmer's merlin.


Gear is a problem for the pet jobs where the master engages in combat. The problem is, like bazooka said, they make the owner choose between gearing the pet or gearing themselves. One set they need to add is a heavy armor set where the master gets accuracy, attack, double attack, and store tp, while the pet gets damage taken, accuracy, and HP. That way beastmaster can have pet tanking armor while still attacking, and dragoon can have a DD set where its wyvern doesn't get one shot. Fix two problems right there. A master mab, and pet mab set wouldn't hurt either. Giving beastmaster more mab would help make fencer more useful for weaponskills like primal rend, and cloud splitter. Speaking of fencer, some 119 shields wouldn't hurt.

You need some carrots to go with your stick. It's not enough to penalize beastmaster for not engaging with its pet. You also have to incentivize that play style. In the original Japanese response that trigger this thread it was mentioned that the 10 second ready timer was fine because by using charmer's merlin the player gives up all the damage that the master would do. Which to players is a pretty no brainer trade off. The master does not do enough damage to not have the pet use a tp move 50% faster. Especially when the master standing out of aoe range is safer. Lowering the range ready can be used make it a little less safe, but only changes one half of the problem.
I mean I imagine you have read that before as it was in response to something you said, and you even responded to it. Why are you treating me like I'm Draylo?

[dasva]

THF survivability is garbage against anything that counts.

So is basically any job in range that isn't pld or run. At least without a geo or smn/brd combo


I'm tired of hearing nonsense like this on the official forums. Stop spreading misinformation. This! This is my problem.

It's not misinformation it's math. Note I said can not average as in absolute highest amounts possible

[Ulth]

It's not misinformation it's math

If that's math I think you need to show your work.

[dasva]

If that's math I think you need to show your work.

Sure thing. But first let me remind you that I said if pimped enough... so before we start do you really want me to thru the effort of doing math in max buff/geared situation?

[Inx]

Damn Ulth, there's so much wrongness in your post I really don't know where to begin.

First of all, THF is still a top-tier DD if geared correctly and buffed appropriately.

Secondly the numbers you cite regarding THF ws-damage are possible right now, post nerf. We have a lot of THF's in our shell and they all can put up those numbers.

You qualify a lot by saying "average" ws damage (as in counting non-stacked WS), but do you do the same when accounting for ready moves? There's a huge difference between readies delivered under familiar, spur, unleash and/or run wild over spammed ones you know. Not to mention Cor rolls and the benefits of fighting under an Idris GEO's bubble that also make a massive difference.

Its not misinformation to show how massively hq support and gear can increase performance for ANY job. This is what really sucks about nerfing generally - it doesn't help people who are struggling to get stuff done, it merely annoys and inconveniences those who were excelling already.

We may never use BST again, but that doesn't take away from the fact we've killed everything in both Escha zones multiple times at this point! So it may take us longer to kill with a different setup, we're still going to own it, the only difference is we have even less impetus and motivation to do so again.

That might sound like bragging, but having ground out 1200 JP's, spent millions of gil perfecting the augments on multiple gear-sets, I feel like I EARNED my role in that success.

So having to re-factor everything because of jealous babies who are gaining nothing for themselves by pulling other people down, is just a pointless thumb-in-the-eye...
Its offensive, and does nothing but give the sense that the dev-team has no respect and no understanding for their players' time and effort.

[bazookatooth]

If that's math I think you need to show your work.

There are spreadsheets and forums for every job as well as thousands of youtube videos and screen shots on every popular FFXI site just a google search away, but yeah.... you need someone to show you math. You play THF. I play THF. I can put up those numbers and you should be able to too. So my question is: Are you lying about not believing that thief can put up those numbers? or are you bad at THF? I suspect that you know thief puts out good numbers and you're just pissed because you hang out with some people who don't like thief as much as they like BST right now.

[Ulth]

When I say average I'm not talking about unstacked ws along with stacked ws. I'm talking about the deviation written into the formula for physical damage as well as the damage done by double and triple attack procs. And when I do my calculations for max damage I assume capped attack, capped accuracy, capped delta strength, as well as boost dex, and additional dex from brd empy. As well as the very best gear, gifts, and most important Mythic dagger and am3. And when I say best gear I mean it. I'm including +1 119 abjurations with their augments and the set bonus. I still get nowhere near where Dasva is claiming. I'm getting just under 40k at 3000tp. With the old ftp rudra's I get 57k. Are you doing your calculations with the old ftp?

On an unrelated note how little the difference between taming sari and vajra is sickens me.

[Zekander]

I only have one anecdote to add to this conversation, treat it as circumstantial evidence if you must, but for me it was a real eye-opener.

My linkshell decided to do sinister reign a few days ago, so we cobbled together a party out of whoever happened to be online at the time. We ended up with: WHM, GEO, PLD, SAM, BST, SMN. The SAM was decently geared and knew how to play his job. The BST was pretty casual, only plays once in a while, only has one gearset (much of it dated). The SMN was about as skilled and well equipped as I can imagine anyone being, Nirvana, max augmented helios, 1200 JP, gearsets for just about everything, etc. The run went fairly well, all things considered, and when we exited the SMN posted his parser data. The BST had out damaged the SMN by more then 10%. To me this was just outrageous. I knew this SMN pretty well and I know he can do some crazy damage, I have personally witnessed him do 95% of an Escha NMs HP with a single Flaming Crush -> Light skillchain. He can easily out DD SAMs in almost any content (the SAM in this case did less then half the damage the SMN did). To make matters worse, when he shared accuracy data, his avatars had accuracy ratings of around 85%, while the BSTs pet had an accuracy of 30%. Yes, I know this includes melee attacks that don't contribute much damage, but it shows that the BST had a lot of room for improvement, the SMN; not so much.

This damage was not a single instance of spike damage, it was damage over a significant amount of time, against the same mobs, with the same buffs/debuffs. This is not a theoretical calculation of potential damage, it is damage potential under real game conditions. I know that this is just one instance, and that there were many factors helping or hindering damage, but even if the BST had every random number in his favor I do not believe that any random casual BST should be able to so easily outperform what I believe to be one of the best SMNs to play the game. If an event like this does not indicate that there is a serious problem with the BST job, I really don't know what will.

[Kensagaku]

I am not normally one to jump on this, but I feel like that post is absolute BS, or there is a lot more you're not telling us. Given that your BST's accuracy was abysmal, they could not have been hitting the majority of their Ready moves. Now, my gear isn't exceptional, it's about mid-tier, and I average about 3000-4000 with Razor Fang. If they have dated gear without things such as Pet: TP Bonus, Pet: Attack, and Pet: DA, their numbers are going to be lower. I also land (and this is an estimate) about 80-90% of my Ready moves, depending on whether Torpor goes down at that time. Assuming he had roughly a third of that rate, there's no way he should have outparsed the SAM, let alone the SMN, short of your SAM there being absolutely crap.

If he were at 90-100% Accuracy and had up to date gear? I could totally see it. The biggest limitation to SMN is a 30-second timer for Rages. In addition, to skillchain with your pet you'd have to be in melee range, and hitting something in Sinister Reign is not the easiest task for melees who actually gear for their own accuracy. So if they're not skillchaining and they're just using a BP every 30 seconds, they're going to fall behind. We have a well-geared Nirvana SMN in our linkshell, and we see things like 11k physical pacts, 6-9k Impacts varying with the situation, etc. So let's use an average of about 8k/30 seconds, or something like 2.6k/10 seconds. My BST, comparatively, would do on average about 3.5k/10 seconds. Someone hitting with a third of my accuracy would do far less, and there is no way that they would have kept up with a competent mythic SMN.

Of course, this is all theory and I could be wrong, but your argument makes no logical sense with the situation you've given us.

[bazookatooth]

I only have one anecdote to add to this conversation, treat it as circumstantial evidence if you must, but for me it was a real eye-opener.

My linkshell decided to do sinister reign a few days ago, so we cobbled together a party out of whoever happened to be online at the time. We ended up with: WHM, GEO, PLD, SAM, BST, SMN. The SAM was decently geared and knew how to play his job. The BST was pretty casual, only plays once in a while, only has one gearset (much of it dated). The SMN was about as skilled and well equipped as I can imagine anyone being, Nirvana, max augmented helios, 1200 JP, gearsets for just about everything, etc. The run went fairly well, all things considered, and when we exited the SMN posted his parser data. The BST had out damaged the SMN by more then 10%. To me this was just outrageous. I knew this SMN pretty well and I know he can do some crazy damage, I have personally witnessed him do 95% of an Escha NMs HP with a single Flaming Crush -> Light skillchain. He can easily out DD SAMs in almost any content (the SAM in this case did less then half the damage the SMN did). To make matters worse, when he shared accuracy data, his avatars had accuracy ratings of around 85%, while the BSTs pet had an accuracy of 30%. Yes, I know this includes melee attacks that don't contribute much damage, but it shows that the BST had a lot of room for improvement, the SMN; not so much.

This damage was not a single instance of spike damage, it was damage over a significant amount of time, against the same mobs, with the same buffs/debuffs. This is not a theoretical calculation of potential damage, it is damage potential under real game conditions. I know that this is just one instance, and that there were many factors helping or hindering damage, but even if the BST had every random number in his favor I do not believe that any random casual BST should be able to so easily outperform what I believe to be one of the best SMNs to play the game. If an event like this does not indicate that there is a serious problem with the BST job, I really don't know what will.

That's very anecdotal. Any number of things could have gone wrong. I can tell right off the bat that you guys weren't using proper buffs, food etc. if your acc was that bad. Most of those NMs are highly resistant to fire, so that could have been your summoner's problem right there. That is in no way indicative of the current situation with BST.

Besides that, Summoner does a whole crap load of buffing and utility besides doing damage. They can haste, stun, buff etc. they are incredibly versatile. I don't see why they should have to be anywhere near the top of the parse to merit an invite ever really. Your anecdote points more towards SMN being overpowered than anything. When is the last time you saw a bst pet do anything but hit stuff?

[Inx]

That's very anecdotal. Any number of things could have gone wrong. I can tell right off the bat that you guys weren't using proper buffs, food etc. if your acc was that bad. Most of those NMs are highly resistant to fire, so that could have been your summoner's problem right there. That is in no way indicative of the current situation with BST.

Yeah its a fishy sounding anecdote too. Pets need a lot of accuracy to perform adequately, to the extent that the absolute most crucial gear stat for a serious player of the job is pet: acc/m.acc. You load it onto literally every slot possible or you'll find yourself whiffing readies over and over again against high level targets. Be interesting to see how that BST would fare against an easy Escha T3 like Shockmaw :D

[bazookatooth]

Yeah its a fishy sounding anecdote too. Pets need a lot of accuracy to perform adequately, to the extent that the absolute most crucial gear stat for a serious player of the job is pet: acc/m.acc. You load it onto literally every slot possible or you'll find yourself whiffing readies over and over again against high level targets. Be interesting to see how that BST would fare against an easy Escha T3 like Shockmaw :D

I mean anybody who's done that fight before would realize that to win with 30% accuracy, the pet had to be doing like 50k per ready move when they did land. The more I think about it, that's either a broken parser or a flat out lie.


EDIT: Got bored last night waiting on people to form for escha stuff and started reading the BG forums. Wouldn't ya know? People are burning through sinister reign in 8-15 minutes using nothing but mages (BLM,SCH,GEO). NO DDs. OMG guys. Better start breaking out your "Please nerf -_ _ _ _ It's too OP" form letters again.

[dasva]

I only have one anecdote to add to this conversation, treat it as circumstantial evidence if you must, but for me it was a real eye-opener.

My linkshell decided to do sinister reign a few days ago, so we cobbled together a party out of whoever happened to be online at the time. We ended up with: WHM, GEO, PLD, SAM, BST, SMN. The SAM was decently geared and knew how to play his job. The BST was pretty casual, only plays once in a while, only has one gearset (much of it dated). The SMN was about as skilled and well equipped as I can imagine anyone being, Nirvana, max augmented helios, 1200 JP, gearsets for just about everything, etc. The run went fairly well, all things considered, and when we exited the SMN posted his parser data. The BST had out damaged the SMN by more then 10%. To me this was just outrageous. I knew this SMN pretty well and I know he can do some crazy damage, I have personally witnessed him do 95% of an Escha NMs HP with a single Flaming Crush -> Light skillchain. He can easily out DD SAMs in almost any content (the SAM in this case did less then half the damage the SMN did). To make matters worse, when he shared accuracy data, his avatars had accuracy ratings of around 85%, while the BSTs pet had an accuracy of 30%. Yes, I know this includes melee attacks that don't contribute much damage, but it shows that the BST had a lot of room for improvement, the SMN; not so much.

This damage was not a single instance of spike damage, it was damage over a significant amount of time, against the same mobs, with the same buffs/debuffs. This is not a theoretical calculation of potential damage, it is damage potential under real game conditions. I know that this is just one instance, and that there were many factors helping or hindering damage, but even if the BST had every random number in his favor I do not believe that any random casual BST should be able to so easily outperform what I believe to be one of the best SMNs to play the game. If an event like this does not indicate that there is a serious problem with the BST job, I really don't know what will.

How exactly can any job out dmg another job that can do 95% of a mobs hp in one go? Only way I could see it is if your "great" smn wasn't doing great in that situation. Which sounds like a case of using the wrong buffs, debuffs, and/or bps or he wasn't keeping up with his timers.

Because with the accuracies you are giving that would basically mean that the bst was landing 1 ready move for every 1 bp landed and still won. Which either means those ready moves are dealing 200k dmg each (which given that the max dmg without extra bonuses for single charge moves is like 20k yeah no) or your smn who "can" do 99999 dmg was only doing like 5k at that time or missing a lot of bps

[Zekander]

I will admit, the BST was better geared then I made it out to be, I didn't realize that many non-item level pieces are still some of the best things to use on BST. I was not, however, exaggerating any of those numbers. The damage disparity was around 10%, the accuracy numbers were correct, and the BST was using only one gearset (again admittedly better then I made it out to be). It also just now occurred to me that the SMN changed avatars several times, that is not only lost time for melee damage to be dealt, but would also skew the accuracy numbers in his favor, since it would be counting landed bloodpacts as a higher percentage of the total attacks. Yes, that example of the SMNs damage was an incredible outlier, and yes the skillchain was for around 95k damage, I think we had a GEO (non-idris) at the time, the NM was Gestalt in Escha Zi'tah (so fairly low defense).

As I said, this is just my anecdote, it is likely somewhat of an outlier itself. However, given that these numbers were accrued over about 20 minutes of fighting, that would bring it considerably closer to an accepted average. Therefor, if the two pet jobs were at all balanced in power (not that they should be exactly equal) then the BST should have been much better geared in order to achieve those numbers.

The entire point of this conversation is ultimately not whether or not BST should be nerfed, it is whether or not BST is balanced with respect to the other jobs in this game. In my opinion the answer is that it is not, it is completely unbalanced in almost every way.

I do not play BST myself, so I can't really say what the job is capable of. However, one of the jobs I do play is WHM, and I have done various content both with and without BSTs. From a WHMs perspective, content done with BSTs is done stupidly easily and completed much more quickly then a non-BST party. Playing WHM in sinister reign with a party consisting of three players in melee range (one tank and two DD) is an absolute NIGHTMARE, I could not cure stats fast enough when I even had time between spamming Curaga to keep them alive, which inevitably led to me taking hate and dying. The same content played with BSTs led me to nearly fall asleep, the only thing I could even do to support the party was cast Dia II, there was no need to cure the tank as he took so little damage (since most of the time the pets had hate anyway) that he could easily keep himself cured, and most of the time would use echo drops before my silena would even land. From this perspective BST trivializes almost all content, this is UNBALANCED.

[kylani]

I do not play BST myself, so I can't really say what the job is capable of. However, one of the jobs I do play is WHM, and I have done various content both with and without BSTs. From a WHMs perspective, content done with BSTs is done stupidly easily and completed much more quickly then a non-BST party. Playing WHM in sinister reign with a party consisting of three players in melee range (one tank and two DD) is an absolute NIGHTMARE, I could not cure stats fast enough when I even had time between spamming Curaga to keep them alive, which inevitably led to me taking hate and dying. The same content played with BSTs led me to nearly fall asleep, the only thing I could even do to support the party was cast Dia II, there was no need to cure the tank as he took so little damage (since most of the time the pets had hate anyway) that he could easily keep himself cured, and most of the time would use echo drops before my silena would even land. From this perspective BST trivializes almost all content, this is UNBALANCED.

I just don't understand this thinking at all. You think BST and SMN should deal the same damage when SMN has so many additional abilities? That would be like saying RDM, SCH and WHM should do the same damage as BST, while curing, buffing, debuffing. It's ridiculous.

And this trivializes ALL content? Really? I've played BST for around 11 years and this is the first time EVER I've heard of BST being even useful in End Game content, much less preferred.

[dasva]

Also 95k skillchain are you saying that the skillchain itself was that much or the BP plus skillchain? If the former than yeah I'd say that's a pimp smn with good buffs/debuffs on par with what Papasse (spelling?) does and I triply can't understand how anyone with low acc could beat him. If you mean the latter... then that isn't pimp outlier that's what the better smns in my ls (but not capped out in helios) do with my geo mule only doing malaise and only geo gear being dunna. Heck that's what my rng can do with trueflight with same geo mule for the only buffs/debuffs. In fact that repost of mine from a page back was in that situation only reason it didn't skillchain as I was trying to with our smn was because of the bsts spamming ready moves :(

Anyways so you're saying a okish good bst can win when the smn wasn't even fighting the whole time and you skew the acc numbers? The jugs ready accuracy probably was better than his overall as well. But I mean geez you can say that about job comparison if you try to compare like that. My pld has won parses when people kept dying and had meh acc

As far as sinister goes... if you want to melee get a geo and use Vex/Attunement. If you don't want to do that you could go just as fast with rngs or even faster with mages. You should see half the shouts for it these days. It's things like pld whm sch (that can skillchain) +3x blm/geo. MBing death absolutely destroys them almost in 1 go

[Arthos]

It is unbalanced. Too many nasty moves on melee on the one side, bored range jobs players on the other side.

Why not making battles a bit smoother for melee, game is ending anyway.

Difficulty should'nt be too high for content player need to farm over and over again, like Sinister Reign. It should mainly be fun to do, and also doable on every job.

I would set difficult high on mission fights, for special KI's and similar things. Things u only do once. Wich makes them memorable, like CoP was back in the days.

Too bad SE did just the opposite, for reasons i don't see.

[Zekander]

95k was the skillchain damage.

No, I don't think BST and SMN should do the same amount of damage. I believe that any job that is incredibly well geared and played by a very dedicated player should be able to beat any job that is undergeared and played by a mediocre player.

@Kylani: Please don't post here if you don't currently play the game.

I watch the shouts here on Asura when I'm in town (I rarely sit afk there for hours on end) and as of today they are all shouts for BST.

[Ulth]

Shouts isn't a good indicator of what jobs are powerful or not.

[kylani]

95k was the skillchain damage.

No, I don't think BST and SMN should do the same amount of damage. I believe that any job that is incredibly well geared and played by a very dedicated player should be able to beat any job that is undergeared and played by a mediocre player.

@Kylani: Please don't post here if you don't currently play the game.

I watch the shouts here on Asura when I'm in town (I rarely sit afk there for hours on end) and as of today they are all shouts for BST.

Why do you think I don't currently play the game? I play every day, and I don't only play BST. And you already said you were incorrect about the BSTs gear. I suspect a lot of this is more speculation than fact.

[bazookatooth]

This whole line of discussion is meaningless. It was clearly a work of fiction. I highly doubt you can even win the content with 30% acc let alone out damage a mythic summoner. This is a common case of not keeping a lie simple enough to pass. The fastest way to do sinister reign is with mage jobs. A group of mages can beat it in like 8-10 minutes. It takes almost twice that with a group of bsts. The same can be said of basically every NM in Escha. And sinister reign is one event. One. A GEO using VEX makes this content easy even with a standard DD setup. But I bet that none of you even tried that. You just went "Hey GEO make my numbers pretty..." and expected to win. So let's be honest here. A lot of people have a lot of jobs, mostly DD jobs and they don't know how the game works. That's fine. But you shouldn't be screwing with other people's jobs just because you aren't good at yours.

Seriously. Get off the official forums and go read whats happening on BG and other sites. Mage groups are destroying content and so are standard DD set ups. But you can't just go in and cast the same buffs and debuffs for everything, while you spam the same WS over and over and expect to win every parse.

[Zekander]

And this trivializes ALL content? Really? I've played BST for around 11 years and this is the first time EVER I've heard of BST being even useful in End Game content, much less preferred.

This is what made me assume you do not play the game. This discussion is not all that new, it's been going on for several weeks at this point, and if this post does represent the first time you've even heard about this then I would have to assume you haven't been playing the game for at least a month. Apologies if this is not what you meant to say.

The only GEO in our linkshell does not play often, and is not all that familiar with the job (and does not really like to play it either), so none of us really know the most effective way to use it in every situation.

Yes, sinister reign is only one event. Yes, there are some situations where BST is not the optimal job (Escha Ru'Aun Caturae come to mind).

At least setting up a skillchain and magic burst is a somewhat complex strategy that involves teamwork.

To be clear I did not skew the accuracy numbers, they were what they were, I simply did not understand all the variables that led to those numbers. Personally I don't trust parsers for exactly this reason, they only give hard numbers without any of the details about how those numbers came to be.

You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine, the facts however, will always be somewhere in between.

[dasva]

95k was the skillchain damage.

No, I don't think BST and SMN should do the same amount of damage. I believe that any job that is incredibly well geared and played by a very dedicated player should be able to beat any job that is undergeared and played by a mediocre player.

@Kylani: Please don't post here if you don't currently play the game.

I watch the shouts here on Asura when I'm in town (I rarely sit afk there for hours on end) and as of today they are all shouts for BST.

Then I kind of call BS on the smn doing so poorly in that other circumstances with what you had listed. I highly suspect that the actual accuracies were somewhat similar and/or that smner was doing at best 1 bp rage a minute.

Also all I see are shouts for mages so....


At least setting up a skillchain and magic burst is a somewhat complex strategy that involves teamwork.


Um schs can do that all by themselves (so can a few other jobs like blu or smn but not quite as constantly). Heck I recently watched a vid of the Belladonna type escha nm where the setup was a pld to pop, trust august to tank, whm for heals, brd for sleeping adds, geo just for bubbles and the sole source of dmg (unless you count the little August was doing lol) was a sch creating self skillchains and MBing

[bazookatooth]

Um schs can do that all by themselves (so can a few other jobs like blu or smn but not quite as constantly). Heck I recently watched a vid of the Belladonna type escha nm where the setup was a pld to pop, trust august to tank, whm for heals, brd for sleeping adds, geo just for bubbles and the sole source of dmg (unless you count the little August was doing lol) was a sch creating self skillchains and MBing

You can do probably half of escha that way. And the funny thing is he's a red mage. He should know about these strategies. RDM enfeebles / buffs work incredibly well in these scenarios.

[dasva]

And let's not forget with just a tiny amount of coordination... like a sch telling the blms to nuke now you can do this fairly easily...

http://cdn.ffxipro.com/images/ss/full/c86f799cb00cdd143ae522ed633b24bb.jpg

[bazookatooth]

And let's not forget with just a tiny amount of coordination... like a sch telling the blms to nuke now you can do this fairly easily...

You're right, but you should pull that down before they see it. Haters reported me and they temp banned me for posting screen shots and youtube links that showed scholar and Summoner doing insane damage and soloing virtually everything in this thread already.

[Malthar]

And they call bst overpowered!

[Draylo-]

That isn't all that impressive, you can clear in that time with a standard DD pt or BSTs. There are few mobs in there that will resist dark and increase the clear time by a lot, compared to BST or DD which don't have to worry about that. Also there are now more magic resistant mobs in Escha which BST can just laugh at, you are really trying to grasp at straws in here bringing stuff like that up. The damage was already done, SE already looking into BST just stop wasting your time.

[Ulth]

I don't know why everyone is focusing on bst's damage. SE really isn't even trying to change that. They are just making it less safe than before. Which I honestly think is a poor idea. It's not going to fix the problems that anyone has on either side of the argument and just upset things further. People on the pro bst side are going to be annoyed by having to run in and out all the time, or when they get hit by an aoe, and people against bst are still going to be annoyed as bst will still be able to clear the same content. To me the range of pet commands is a lose lose adjustment. Bst still aren't going to run in and hit things with their axes. If SE wants that to happen they will have to make it the more appealing option over 10 second ready timers.

[bazookatooth]

That isn't all that impressive, you can clear in that time with a standard DD pt or BSTs. There are few mobs in there that will resist dark and increase the clear time by a lot, compared to BST or DD which don't have to worry about that. Also there are now more magic resistant mobs in Escha which BST can just laugh at, you are really trying to grasp at straws in here bringing stuff like that up. The damage was already done, SE already looking into BST just stop wasting your time.

Those same escha NMs have physical shield as well. And any shield that doesn't affect pets, doesn't affect DDs either. Do you even play this game? or do you just come here to troll the bst forums?

[Draylo-]

Except I'm not talking about Caturae, see the book NM and Dverger NM for details. Do you constantly have to insult people that disagree with you? Maybe that's why you got temp banned and not because you posted SS.

[Sogoro]

I recently came back after quitting in 2006. I am not sure but it seems that many monsters these days are highly resistant to debuffs that would otherwise allow people to stay alive longer. I haven't seen anyone inviting RDMs for Break to petrify monsters.

I don't think jobs are the problem. People will always want to use what is the strongest...no one wants to waste hours of their time with no rewards.

[bazookatooth]

Except I'm not talking about Caturae, see the book NM and Dverger NM for details. Do you constantly have to insult people that disagree with you? Maybe that's why you got temp banned and not because you posted SS.

And in this story, you can't do the book NM with standard DDs because?....

Same goes for the Dverger. Geo Vex and go to town.

EDIT:And FWIW that wasn't an insult. It was me thinking out loud. The way you completely ignored the obvious fact that both of those NMs can be done easily by standard DD setups leads me to believe that you either didn't know because you don't play and / or have never even tried the stuff you're complaining about or.... You knew that they could be done easily with DD set ups and you're just trolling because you're salty about bst. I'm leaning towards the latter.

[Kensagaku]

And in this story, you can't do the book NM with standard DDs because?....

Same goes for the Dverger. Geo Vex and go to town.

Gotta agree with this. My linkshell recently did a run of these NMs, and I was the sole BST in the party because I just happened to be on the job at the time and it was faster than having me switch. Do you want to know what our job setup was? 2 RNGs, 2 Idris GEOs, 2 BLMs, a BST, a SMN, a SAM, a THF, a PLD, two WHMs, a COR... and some other miscellaneous jobs. We had zero difficulty with this. Geo-Vex made the nukes from Dvergr trivial (Heck, they were fairly trivial anyway since we had everyone switch to the adds immediately). The book, again, was absolutely trivial because we killed adds in the right order, so only the PLD really took a lot of Exponential Bursts, and even the one or two times we were all drawn in, Geo-Vex weakened the damage considerably. We still had a lot of ranged jobs, yes, as a safety net, but if you notice something, there's all of one BST in there. I was hardly parsing top of the list compared to one of our RNGs (who is very well geared, at that), and the Mythic SMN who was tearing things up and providing valuable support.

Most of these fights are very doable without having to throw BSTs at them. I think when we did a run of the T2 Ru'Aun NMs, we had all of one death. So try again, Draylo; BST doesn't trivialize content that's already fairly trivial. Instead of worrying about one damage dealer whose damage is not as impressive as you make it out to be, look at all the other niche jobs that can't be replaced. PLD can't often be replaced by RUN because RUN doesn't have shields to block; sure, RUN is a great job (I personally enjoy it), but against mixed elements, or heavy physical damage, you're going to find that PLD is far more desirable. WHM is the king of healing and there's no second place; no other jobs get access to all of their AoE healing tools, status removal tools, etc. GEO is the world's best buff/debuffer and all of its spells are highly potent with enough skill, and it's only because RDM can stack with GEO effects that we haven't heard an outcry of "they took our job!!!" But potency-wise, it is hard to compare to a GEO.

Rather than whine and complain, Draylo, why not go the other route and try to figure out buffs for other jobs instead of nerfs for one you just seem to be extra salty towards for some unknown reason. BLU is already in a fantastic spot but if there's something about it you don't like, why not make a suggestion for a buff? And this goes for any other job you may like. Make suggestions to improve and help players, instead of nerfing and tearing down people just because you're bitter. It makes you sound like a sore loser.

[dasva]

That isn't all that impressive, you can clear in that time with a standard DD pt or BSTs. There are few mobs in there that will resist dark and increase the clear time by a lot, compared to BST or DD which don't have to worry about that. Also there are now more magic resistant mobs in Escha which BST can just laugh at, you are really trying to grasp at straws in here bringing stuff like that up. The damage was already done, SE already looking into BST just stop wasting your time.

The blinders are strong with this one....

1 job does ok dmg on some things omg too OP nerf nerf nerf. Other jobs do great dmg on other things psh bst is still better on other things nerf nerf nerf.

Magic dmg doesn't do as good on magic resistant things!?! Ya don't say. Did you also know physical dmg doesn't work as well on mobs with high evasion, dt, def etc? It's almost as if SE designs different mobs to be fought differently but usually allowing you still to do it the "hard" way...

[dasva]

I recently came back after quitting in 2006. I am not sure but it seems that many monsters these days are highly resistant to debuffs that would otherwise allow people to stay alive longer. I haven't seen anyone inviting RDMs for Break to petrify monsters.

I don't think jobs are the problem. People will always want to use what is the strongest...no one wants to waste hours of their time with no rewards.

Somewhat true. SE doesn't really like you to be able to take breaks during fights anymore (though some delve bosses could be slept so maybe some new stuff idk if anyone has really tried). I think they believe wipes should be the end.

It seems that they've focused more on debuffs that help limit what mobs do without flat outstopping them (outside of silly things like stun locking or blu with super terror)... sadly (at least for rdm) most of those are for geo. Even addle II doesn't really compare to other forms of -macc. Though people do love rdm offensively for Frazzle/Distract III which is nice.

[Draylo-]

And in this story, you can't do the book NM with standard DDs because?....

Same goes for the Dverger. Geo Vex and go to town.

EDIT:And FWIW that wasn't an insult. It was me thinking out loud. The way you completely ignored the obvious fact that both of those NMs can be done easily by standard DD setups leads me to believe that you either didn't know because you don't play and / or have never even tried the stuff you're complaining about or.... You knew that they could be done easily with DD set ups and you're just trolling because you're salty about bst. I'm leaning towards the latter.

Way to go, completely missing the point. My point was, you could do them all as BST and laugh at the mechanics where certain jobs, you know like the BLM you were both claiming to be "overpowered" are completely useless against those NMs. Why should they have to job change when a BST doesn't have to?


The blinders are strong with this one....

1 job does ok dmg on some things omg too OP nerf nerf nerf. Other jobs do great dmg on other things psh bst is still better on other things nerf nerf nerf.

Magic dmg doesn't do as good on magic resistant things!?! Ya don't say. Did you also know physical dmg doesn't work as well on mobs with high evasion, dt, def etc? It's almost as if SE designs different mobs to be fought differently but usually allowing you still to do it the "hard" way...

On some things? Dude, name a few NM that BST doesn't do well against lol. They do well on 90% of the content in the game, high evasion isn't an excuse when you can bolster torpor etc. BLM can't do the same when something is magic resistant as their nukes will still do crap. Point is, you brought that SS up in an isolated situation to try and shift the focus to BLM when its pretty obvious they don't do that all the time. You did it previously with the Plouton situation, why don't you guys stop trying to get other jobs nerfed for isolated situations and realize SE already made their decision with BST. I hadn't even been posting in here because its the same three people attacking anyone that posts a contrary opinion while their LS comes in to + their posts in hope BST doesn't get nerfed lol, pathetic.


Gotta agree with this. My linkshell recently did a run of these NMs, and I was the sole BST in the party because I just happened to be on the job at the time and it was faster than having me switch. Do you want to know what our job setup was? 2 RNGs, 2 Idris GEOs, 2 BLMs, a BST, a SMN, a SAM, a THF, a PLD, two WHMs, a COR... and some other miscellaneous jobs. We had zero difficulty with this. Geo-Vex made the nukes from Dvergr trivial (Heck, they were fairly trivial anyway since we had everyone switch to the adds immediately). The book, again, was absolutely trivial because we killed adds in the right order, so only the PLD really took a lot of Exponential Bursts, and even the one or two times we were all drawn in, Geo-Vex weakened the damage considerably. We still had a lot of ranged jobs, yes, as a safety net, but if you notice something, there's all of one BST in there. I was hardly parsing top of the list compared to one of our RNGs (who is very well geared, at that), and the Mythic SMN who was tearing things up and providing valuable support.

Most of these fights are very doable without having to throw BSTs at them. I think when we did a run of the T2 Ru'Aun NMs, we had all of one death. So try again, Draylo; BST doesn't trivialize content that's already fairly trivial. Instead of worrying about one damage dealer whose damage is not as impressive as you make it out to be, look at all the other niche jobs that can't be replaced. PLD can't often be replaced by RUN because RUN doesn't have shields to block; sure, RUN is a great job (I personally enjoy it), but against mixed elements, or heavy physical damage, you're going to find that PLD is far more desirable. WHM is the king of healing and there's no second place; no other jobs get access to all of their AoE healing tools, status removal tools, etc. GEO is the world's best buff/debuffer and all of its spells are highly potent with enough skill, and it's only because RDM can stack with GEO effects that we haven't heard an outcry of "they took our job!!!" But potency-wise, it is hard to compare to a GEO.

Rather than whine and complain, Draylo, why not go the other route and try to figure out buffs for other jobs instead of nerfs for one you just seem to be extra salty towards for some unknown reason. BLU is already in a fantastic spot but if there's something about it you don't like, why not make a suggestion for a buff? And this goes for any other job you may like. Make suggestions to improve and help players, instead of nerfing and tearing down people just because you're bitter. It makes you sound like a sore loser.

You are completely missing the point. Try reading the last page and maybe you will understand? He posted a screenshot to show BLM dmg and say they are overpowered, while ignoring the fact they are completely useless in certain fights, unlike BST. I know how this game works and I'm aware of all the strategies, but thanks for the suggestion ?

[Kensagaku]

You should really think before you post. You mentioned the guy complaining about BLM, which you say doesn't do well in certain situations. BST has the same issues; anything that spams Break or Amnesia completely knocks out a BST, because we can't remove Amnesia (no one can really, but we're talking in terms where BST specifically isn't viable, else we'd have to talk about how RNGs and CORs and such are immune to amnesia) or Break (unlike with players, which can have it removed via Stona.) We also have a set amount of time between resummons so if something has high AoE then it can simply wipe the floor faster than we can spam Reward, and if you want to argue about Dawn Mulsims then I'm going to argue that few other jobs require you to spend gil nearly as frequently for the sake of recovery. BST pets can't be healed by spells, Waltzes, and the majority of items; we're stuck with just Reward, Dawn Mulsims, and resummoning our pets. And in situations where we're being slammed, that resummon will get you down much like a weakened player for anywhere from 1-3 minutes, where while you CAN melee as a BST with decent gear, you're likely in a party that doesn't provide adequate buffs to heal you or a healer to keep you alive.

So yeah, if you want to argue that "BLM can't do this in all situations," I'll point out that BST can't do their damage in all situations either. Terror, Stun, Break, Amnesia, all of those work heavily against our pet and there's nothing we can do about those. Blind is a lesser problem, but we have to waste our Reward timer to remove it. There are plenty of situations in which a BST pet isn't always viable, you're just so set against BST that you can't see sense.

[Draylo-]

Name the NMs that you think BST is completely useless against? Nice "you should really think before you post", had to throw that little insult in there huh? I think all my posts through, thanks. BST doesn't have the same issue, they can kill most things before it even gets to that point or heal through it. High AOE that it can wipe the floor faster than you can spam reward? Name a fight like that where the mob is constantly wsing to that point that you are being "slammed". You can't use the cost of items as a point in favor of BST lol. Who cares if few jobs require that measly amount of gil, the point is you can spam heals endlessly. Name those situations where a BST pet isn't viable. I like how we both post our opinions yet somehow I can't see sense due to my BST hate, yet I've clearly posted my opinions articulately and used examples to support them. I love how internet people jump to the attack stance, so predictable.

[Arthos]

somehow I can't see sense due to my BST hate
So please delete Beastmaster from game SE.


I love how internet people jump to the attack stance, so predictable.
...

[Singforu]

BST was made incorrectly IMO. It is illogical and goes against lore. Why?

1. Pets should not be able to do TP moves without actually having TP.
2. Pets should receive the same buffs the party gets, there should not be pet rolls. AoE magic, songs, etc. should be applied to the pet.
3. Pets should not get food benefits from the master eating it unless it is like those stewpots that effect the whole party. BST should have to trade their pet food. Expensive? Possibly, but that's the cost vs benefit of doing so much extra damage.

[bazookatooth]

BST was made incorrectly IMO. It is illogical and goes against lore. Why?

1. Pets should not be able to do TP moves without actually having TP.
2. Pets should receive the same buffs the party gets, there should not be pet rolls. AoE magic, songs, etc. should be applied to the pet.


Agreed. But this would probably make a job like beast master impossible to balance as either the pet would have to be extremely weak (turning it into a dragoon with axes instead of pole arms), or the master would have to be extremely weak making it impossible for them to ever fight without a pet.


3. ....but that's the cost vs benefit of doing so much extra damage.

That's essentially how it functions (the master receives no benefit, just the pet). You just want them to change the animation so that it looks like they are feeding it to the pet?

[Tidis]

BST was made incorrectly IMO. It is illogical and goes against lore. Why?

1. Pets should not be able to do TP moves without actually having TP.


Wasn't that quite a modern change? Basically what brought about all this BST nerf argument, without the ability to TP whenever, 10 second ready timer wouldn't be near as effective as it is right now.

[bazookatooth]

Wasn't that quite a modern change? Basically what brought about all this BST nerf argument, without the ability to TP whenever, 10 second ready timer wouldn't be near as effective as it is right now.

Of course "2." would allow them to TP every 2-3 seconds just like every other DD job, so....

[dasva]

On some things? Dude, name a few NM that BST doesn't do well against lol. They do well on 90% of the content in the game, high evasion isn't an excuse when you can bolster torpor etc. BLM can't do the same when something is magic resistant as their nukes will still do crap. Point is, you brought that SS up in an isolated situation to try and shift the focus to BLM when its pretty obvious they don't do that all the time. You did it previously with the Plouton situation, why don't you guys stop trying to get other jobs nerfed for isolated situations and realize SE already made their decision with BST. I hadn't even been posting in here because its the same three people attacking anyone that posts a contrary opinion while their LS comes in to + their posts in hope BST doesn't get nerfed lol, pathetic.


Haha if evasion is too high you can just lower it if magic evasion is too high lowering it wont work. Nice double speak.

Things jugs don't do well in? I'll admit I haven't exactly fought all the current new stuff (sath would have a more complete list though his would be what gives basically a perfectly geared bst with Idris geo and/or cor support trouble so not precisely typical by a long shot) but here we go though. Most of the T3 new escha nms as well as the caturae ones. Brimboil. Perfidien. Ark Angel TT. Lancelord Gaheel Ja. Beist if it uses petroeyes. Voso. Lustful Lydia. Vidala. Sensual Sandy. Fleetstalker. Shockmaw sometimes. Several other high


Isolated? Please list all the nms that magic strategies wont work then? Please also list all the nms that melee or rng strategies wont work.

I bring it up because all the damage dealing jobs can deal good damage. It's been proven over and over again that other jobs can do great dmg too. Everyone but you realizes this.

And why has SE make that decision? Was it because too much dmg?


We are planning on making the adjustment to pet command distance in the September update. This adjustment is being done to add greater risk to playing Beastmaster without directly affecting their damage output
Clearly not

Was it because they don't like people dealing dmg with little risk or at least with pets?


Beastmaster is a job that we’ve balanced with close to mid-range engagements, but at the moment only pets are being sent close to enemies and players are standing in the back.

In regards to summoner, this is a job that was created to be a back line job, and we are looking into making adjustments to increase the range in which pet commands can be executed so they can function better in the back. Nope in fact they are wanting to make smn even better at that.

Instead they clearly state their reasons are due to based on how they created the job to be played. This is basically them not wanting nin to tank all over again. People are playing the job in a way they didn't intend so it's being change purely for image reasons


I find your parting shot hilarious since that is exactly what you do. Take a look in the mirror buddy. Anytime anyone disagrees with you you cry oh no they are insulting be boohoo. And then make all kinds of other accusations about them. So once again I ask we keep the conversation about the game and not about the players. On the other hand the majority of your "attackers" are talking about your blatant mistruths and lack of logical coherence of your arguments. People + our stuff and not yours simply because you are wrong there is no great conspiracy and everyone isn't out to get you. It's simply a matter of better or at least more honest arguments and them standing better in the arena of public opinion

[dasva]

That's essentially how it functions (the master receives no benefit, just the pet). You just want them to change the animation so that it looks like they are feeding it to the pet?

Technically not true. The pet food does help the master some but nowhere near as much as the pet. And not in anyway that helps with the current play style except the fun solos where you are selfskillchaining with your pet and such.

I must admit though the idea of feeding food to my pets would be fun and interesting. Makes more sense as well. Would also be kind of cool (though obviously expensive) if you could actually give your pet a certain food and yourself another so you can have different buffs. Like if we ever got back to where master meleeing was good again on higher content you'd want some acc food on the master but if you were taking advantage of magic dmg you'd probably prefer Grape Daifuku for pet. Same could be said of pup with a blm frame. Or smn wanting to nuke some inbetween but use physical or hybrid bps

[Draylo-]

Haha if evasion is too high you can just lower it if magic evasion is too high lowering it wont work. Nice double speak.

Haha it's called direct magic damage reduction. No amount of lower magic evasion is going to increase the damage to respectable levels, ever nuke water on something resistant to it like leech?


Things jugs don't do well in? I'll admit I haven't exactly fought all the current new stuff (sath would have a more complete list though his would be what gives basically a perfectly geared bst with Idris geo support trouble so not precisely typical by a long shot) but here we go though. Most of the T3 new escha nms as well as the caturae ones. Brimboil. Perfidien. Ark Angel TT. Lancelord Gaheel Ja. Beist if it uses petroeyes. Voso. Lustful Lydia. Vidala. Sensual Sandy. Fleetstalker. Shockmaw sometimes. Several other high


How are the T3 escha NMs and caturae fights where jugs don't do well? I've seen BST do all of them np, maybe its just your skill? Brimboil has been done, even by the guy you even mentioned with a testimonial on it. He used a grasshopper buffed with all his JA to straight up melee it down. Perfidien can be done the same way it would just take a while, which isn't too bad considering hes quick to pop with the KI. AA TT petrify doesn't last that long, you can stand on the stairs and spam heals. Beist? lol you can melee him down on the BST with trusts/trust tank. Sensual Sandy? Why... Not gonna keep going into them all but each case isn't something a BST can't overcome with support, pretty much all of those things you listed you can spam heal through np.

There are a lot of NMs in the game that are resistant to magic where it takes a direct reduction in damage, they added even more in this last update. The thing is, you can still win but its clearly inferior to physical DD and BST pets. This really isn't true for BST, you can probably bet almost anything added with a few exceptions will be able to be done with them being optimal. My only point was that you are posting a SS of two BLM's doing Death as if it was proof they needed to be nerfed when it clearly is isolated and not true across every NM that is relevant. You aren't doing 99,999+ Death dmg to every NM in the game, yet you are using that SS and previously one of Plouton as your proof other jobs are better and need to be nerfed over BST. Your posts come across very condescending and trollish. You realize the jobs potential but don't want it adjusted so you try to talk down to anyone with a negative opinion of BST as if they are mentally challenged and don't see the obvious.


I bring it up because all the damage dealing jobs can deal good damage. It's been proven over and over again that other jobs can do great dmg too. Everyone but you realizes this.


Deal "good" damage and be the most optimal choice are completely different things. People are shouting for BST for all content for a reason. "Everyone realizes this" but me? Damn dude, you really are trying to attack me. I seem to have struck a nerve.


I find your parting shot hilarious since that is exactly what you do. Take a look in the mirror buddy. Anytime anyone disagrees with you you cry oh no they are insulting be boohoo. And then make all kinds of other accusations about them. So once again I ask we keep the conversation about the game and not about the players. On the other hand the majority of your "attackers" are talking about your blatant mistruths and lack of logical coherence of your arguments. People + our stuff and not yours simply because you are wrong there is no great conspiracy and everyone isn't out to get you. It's simply a matter of better or at least more honest arguments and them standing better in the arena of public opinion

I'm really starting to see what people said about you to be true now lol. Blatant mistruths? Show me them. Lack of logical coherence in my arguments, examples? Seems like another personal attack. I haven't personally attacked any real poster in this thread except maybe the fake mule account that troll is hiding behind.Each post has typically 4 +s, not hard to guess as 3 of them are arguing for BST in this very thread and its not exactly a very active forum lol.

[Ulth]

Technically not true. The pet food does help the master some but nowhere near as much as the pet. And not in anyway that helps with the current play style except the fun solos where you are selfskillchaining with your pet and such.

I must admit though the idea of feeding food to my pets would be fun and interesting. Makes more sense as well. Would also be kind of cool (though obviously expensive) if you could actually give your pet a certain food and yourself another so you can have different buffs. Like if we ever got back to where master meleeing was good again on higher content you'd want some acc food on the master but if you were taking advantage of magic dmg you'd probably prefer Grape Daifuku for pet. Same could be said of pup with a blm frame. Or smn wanting to nuke some inbetween but use physical or hybrid bps

How would you feed food to a puppet? Have you never seen sesame street, the cookies just crumble up before falling out of cookie monster's mouth.

Kidding aside I would like to see bst be able to do the fun self skillchaining sort of play style with their pet.

[bazookatooth]

Technically not true. The pet food does help the master some but nowhere near as much as the pet. And not in anyway that helps with the current play style except the fun solos where you are selfskillchaining with your pet and such.

I must admit though the idea of feeding food to my pets would be fun and interesting. Makes more sense as well. Would also be kind of cool (though obviously expensive) if you could actually give your pet a certain food and yourself another so you can have different buffs. Like if we ever got back to where master meleeing was good again on higher content you'd want some acc food on the master but if you were taking advantage of magic dmg you'd probably prefer Grape Daifuku for pet. Same could be said of pup with a blm frame. Or smn wanting to nuke some inbetween but use physical or hybrid bps

I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to the actual pet food (Theta, Zeta, etc.) not the food the master uses (Daifuku and such). Yeah, it would be nice to be able to give pets different stat bonuses than the master. That would get crazy expensive though and the job is already expensive as it is. For example, I went through 3 of these (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17917/bubbly-broth) in a single Duke vepar fight last night, as well as 5 of these (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/5411/dawn-mulsum). It would suck to have to add 3 or 4 more food items on top of that.

[dasva]

Haha it's called direct magic damage reduction. No amount of lower magic evasion is going to increase the damage to respectable levels, ever nuke water on something resistant to it like leech?You said resistance not mdt or sdt. Comparing physical evasion to sdt/mdt is horribly disingenuous. A better comparison would be to physical sdts and pdts. Guess what no matter how much you lower def or evasion your tiger is going to do horrible dmg to that same leech as well while the blm if they are paying attention is going to switch elements... and if they were knowledgeable wouldn't have used the water in the first place




How are the T3 escha NMs and caturae fights where jugs don't do well? I've seen BST do all of them np, maybe its just your skill? Brimboil has been done, even by the guy you even mentioned with a testimonial on it. He used a grasshopper buffed with all his JA to straight up melee it down. Perfidien can be done the same way it would just take a while, which isn't too bad considering hes quick to pop with the KI. AA TT petrify doesn't last that long, you can stand on the stairs and spam heals. Beist? lol you can melee him down on the BST with trusts/trust tank. Sensual Sandy? Why... Not gonna keep going into them all but each case isn't something a BST can't overcome with support, pretty much all of those things you listed you can spam heal through np.

There are a lot of NMs in the game that are resistant to magic where it takes a direct reduction in damage, they added even more in this last update. The thing is, you can still win but its clearly inferior to physical DD and BST pets. This really isn't true for BST, you can probably bet almost anything added with a few exceptions will be able to be done with them being optimal. My only point was that you are posting a SS of two BLM's doing Death as if it was proof they needed to be nerfed when it clearly is isolated and not true across every NM that is relevant. You aren't doing 99,999+ Death dmg to every NM in the game, yet you are using that SS and previously one of Plouton as your proof other jobs are better and need to be nerfed over BST. Your posts come across very condescending and trollish. You realize the jobs potential but don't want it adjusted so you try to talk down to anyone with a negative opinion of BST as if they are mentally challenged and don't see the obvious.
Doing them isn't the same as doing them well. Way to move the goal posts. A lot of those are either problems with how much dmg you can do... yeah you can get them done but it takes forever either due to evasion or dmg reductions or debilitating debuffs that can't be removed (btw that last one was the reason for perfiden). And some of them even with perfect DT gear and perfect reward sets you are riding reward timers and sometimes fall short. Dots in particularly are hard to deal with since dt doesn't work and no naws.

Really I'm not sure what point you are making here you acknowledge that in several fights bst can still power thru things with proper support and gear and spamming heal and waiting things out and that's bad but then right away say that blms can also power thru things they aren't as good at.... me being trollish? You are the one that consistently applies double standards such as that one. If you can't see it maybe there is something wrong with you... I mean seriously you back to back say one thing is ok for other jobs but bad for bst. And no I'm not trying to say other jobs need to be nerfed. Other than that bit of obvious satire I was doing I've definitely stated that the point of dmg comparisons was to show there is no need for nerfs because plenty of others can do as much



Deal "good" damage and be the most optimal choice are completely different things. People are shouting for BST for all content for a reason. "Everyone realizes this" but me? Damn dude, you really are trying to attack me. I seem to have struck a nerve.
I agree. Good thing bsts aren't the most optimal most the time. Shouting is rather poor logic. I mean most the shouts I see are for sch blm and geo pld and whm. That's not an attack quit the pity party. It's simple statement of fact that was admittedly exaggerated. The vast majority of the players I find are quite aware other jobs can deal tons of dmg. And a nerve ha funny



I'm really starting to see what people said about you to be true now lol. Blatant mistruths? Show me them. Lack of logical coherence in my arguments, examples? Seems like another personal attack. I haven't personally attacked any real poster in this thread except maybe the fake mule account that troll is hiding behind.Each post has typically 4 +s, not hard to guess as 3 of them are arguing for BST in this very thread and its not exactly a very active forum lol.
And here is more of what I mean. You cry that everyone is attacking you for disagreeing with you and then your response is a blatant attempt at character assassination. I mean I could make similar statements myself....but I'm trying to keep this a discussion about ideas and not people. And then you have the nerve to call statements about what you say as personal attacks. Is this opposite world? Do you honestly believe that attacking someone's point is personal but attacking the person themselves isn't? Because I got news for you that's not how it works.

Blatant mistruths? How about how you've previously said 10k dmg every 10 seconds is something no other DD can do? How about your earlier statements about how hardly any nms have debuffs that matter to bst... I just listed a few and what do you do? Brush it off with like oh well just wait it out or spam heal or get a tank. Well gee because other jobs can't do the same AND have those statuses cured. You say things like you don't make personal attacks except on "trolls" on "fake accounts" a few sentences after a personal attack. Or like how you claim that saying the things that you are saying are wrong or illogical is a [/I]personal[/I] attacks. If I wanted to make that a personal attack I would've said something about your motivation to do so or the say something about the character of person that would say those things. Ya know what you've done. As far as lack of logical coherence ok how about when you make a huge deal about how unfair it is that a melee can be paralyzed for a few seconds until it gets cured because it lowers dps. But when presented with situations where bsts dps gets lowered by even greater amounts and can't be cured you act like there is no problem. With make talk about how magic dmg can be reduced then blatantly pretend like physical can't be. Or like how you try to compare actual direct dmg reductions to mere evasion.

I will give you this though it seems like you do get where the pluses likely come from now. It's obviously people who agree in a thread without a lot of traffic... and yeah in a bst forums so likely to have more innate support though obviously not universal. But on the other hand if this was really such a big problem don't you think it would see more traffic from non bsts? Instead it's mostly a few people who play the job that would be here regardless of the state of the job. I mean when thf finally got it's 15 minutes Rudra's was hotly debated by both sides in much larger amounts on all the forums. Whether you think it was good or bad it was definitely a big deal. This though? Relatively minor attention.

P.S. Didn't see it earlier but yes there is an ignore function. Click on the persons name to go to their profile should be easy to find from there

[Sogoro]

It will be funny when SE does change BST, and then we will find a way to be even more devastating to monsters. Nobody puts the master in a corner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28A9Jgo92GQ) ~Warlike Patrick

[Olor]

If they want us to be a front line job they have to stop making us choose between gearing for pet or gearing for master. It really isn't fair. We can't gear for both in any reasonable way. I would much rather get a damage nerf than this. The only reason anyone plays bst is to get some distance from the mob. It's been like this for years. WTF is wrong with the devs?

[kylani]

P.S. Didn't see it earlier but yes there is an ignore function. Click on the persons name to go to their profile should be easy to find from there

Thank you! For this and your excellent posts.

[Cyleena]

But on the other hand if this was really such a big problem don't you think it would see more traffic from non bsts? Instead it's mostly a few people who play the job that would be here regardless of the state of the job. I mean when thf finally got it's 15 minutes Rudra's was hotly debated by both sides in much larger amounts on all the forums. Whether you think it was good or bad it was definitely a big deal. This though? Relatively minor attention.



Maybe it is more of the fact that beast is very disliked atm but people do not want to come on here and get bashed like the bst seem to be doing to anyone that talks bad about the job and mention the word nerf. I hear tons of people on the actual game say how much they dislike how bst is and cannot wait until the nerf. Just because it is not getting tons of people on the official forum saying stuff does not mean that people are happy about bst. I hear complaints daily about bst on ffxi lol. My LS hates me even having bst come to events, and I hear about it if I even have anyone on bst. People complain in shouts on Asura, etc. All the relevant content shouts nowadays are bst bst bst bst bst especially for SR and Escha T2/T3. People are liking the easy way to kill stuff, and only want bst to join these groups, which does make a lot of people unhappy.

[Sogoro]

So far no person that actually plays BST seriously, the people who have put in the effort to learn the ins and outs of BST and got the JP to have a 10 second ready, have bashed people. Mistaking good arguments for bashing is not reasonable.

Anyone who really learns how to play their job has the ability to be useful. It is up to the community to play this game, not the devs. If people are shouting BST BST BST (which by the way, I play JP prime time on Asura rarely see shouts for BST but rather BLU and GEO) because they can kill faster is not a problem if other job setups can accomplish it as well albeit slower. Killing slower does not equal a warrant to be upset that another job can do it faster. Phy Dmg vs Mag Dmg. I remember back in 06 where there were BLM mercenary groups doing KSNM 99. I do not recall people getting upset by that.

So really, the issue is not that BST can do this safer/quicker. Its clear that people are not gearing properly or changing subjobs in order to fulfill different roles. I believe Thief can now get a 119 cross bow and sub RNG to utilize WS if RNG attack was the only viable option. It would also be possible then to range shoot up to 1000tp then run in and TA rudra off the tank(if range WS wouldnt work) and then run away and not die. There are ways to play this game besides cookie cutter. The community needs to become better than this quibbling.

[Cyleena]

If people are shouting BST BST BST (which by the way, I play JP prime time on Asura rarely see shouts for BST but rather BLU and GEO) JP prime time there might not be shouts (idk because by time the JP population comes on game I am usually off doing rl stuff) but try being on the game during NA time or EU time. I run a EU shell and all day there is shouts for bst bst bst on Asura. I am sitting on game right now crafting and I have seen shouts for bst especially SR shouts, Escha shouts, skirmish, etc. It happens a lot. Maybe the JP population is not using them (or shouting for them if they do) but everyone else is. lol

[Cyleena]

So far no person that actually plays BST seriously, the people who have put in the effort to learn the ins and outs of BST and got the JP to have a 10 second ready, have bashed people. Mistaking good arguments for bashing is not reasonable.



Most the people getting upset about bst and the potential nerfs are bandwagon bsts. I know of a few on Asura who get really upset if you say you do not want them on bst, or if you mention about nerf to them (they totally were not main bst before this all happened). There is a lot of people in this forum getting upset about it too if you read past posts, and on other forums as well. Realistically unless you were soloing before bst got more powerful you did not main bst as your job. I do not know of anyone in all the years I have played this game that can honestly say bst is their main job until recently when all of a sudden everyone went bst nutso. People started bandwagoning bst when it got powerful, and now go out for blood if they think you are against having bst in your group and get nasty (and yes it seems like the more serious bst are not the ones bashing but the ones that jumped on it when it became relevant).

[bazookatooth]

It's weird that people would be shouting for BST if everyone who has it wants to go to events on it and people don't like it in events. Seems like that argument contradicts itself. If people don't like BST, why would they shout for BST? If there are too many BSTs, why do people have to shout for them?

A quick /sea on my server right now shows 32 bst and 74 thf. Quick. Nerf the BST! There's too many!

[Cyleena]

It's weird that people would be shouting for BST if everyone who has it wants to go to events on it and people don't like it in events. Seems like that argument contradicts itself. If people don't like BST, why would they shout for BST? If there are too many BSTs, why do people have to shout for them?

A quick /sea on my server right now shows 32 bst and 74 thf. Quick. Nerf the BST! There's too many!

First of all I was not speaking for all of Asura in regard to events if you read my post. I said in my linkshell not what anyone else is doing. I brought up events because my LS is not a pet LS unlike other linkshells on the server that have lots of pet jobs. I only have a few people who have pet jobs geared, and only 2 are bsts, and the other ones are smn. We do not use pets in our setups though the two that have bst geared always want to come on pet jobs though everyone else does not want to waste buffs on two or three pet jobs like having a cor just for them or w/e. Every linkshell is different in their preferences, and some like to use only pet jobs or mostly pet jobs. It is up to the individual LS.

The people shouting for bst are the ones that like quick kills (like SR though honestly we kill just as quick without pets), and like the power of the bsts. I personally know some of the people that shout for bsts for SR, and they do it for the quick kills so they can spam things faster (not LS members of mine but people I know). Also, I do not know what you were looking at but doing /sea all on Asura for bsts brings a lot more then 32 (your profile says Asura but there is more then 32 on). I see 90 on atm and tonight is kinda a dead night for Asura.

[Sogoro]

Naturally, talking on a forum like this about he said she said is not really any basis for a strong argument. We each seem to have evidence to support our conclusions on the matter. Unless I actively play this game with you or you with me we cannot really know if what either side has said is a true statement. The facts though that do is exist is that people who have played BST seriously before the boost to the class finally got the opportunity to become a major player/option in content they would have never been looked at before. Before the damage output it was equally unfair for the rest of the playerbase to reject BST from taking part in content. The problem still is not actually with the game. It is the community. There were ways before that BST could take part in end game, as my shell on Pandemonium in 2006, Singularity, had someone who played BST. The people I played with had different strategies in defeating content based upon who was online for the event.

The issue is the player base. People need to change. I think we can all agree on that. It should not take the DEVs changing a game mechanic to make players get along better. This is very childish if you think about it.

On the whole I think many of us actually agree with one another more than we think.

[bazookatooth]

You come on here talking about people bashing anyone who says they don't like bst, but then say you can do things faster without bst. That's the very definition of bashing. You're basically just saying that other people should have their job nerfed just because you don't like it. You even provide anecdotal evidence that other jobs already outperform it. What do you expect people to do when you go on the internet and basically say "I think they should ruin your fun because I don't like you"?

[Cyleena]

The issue is the player base. People need to change. I think we can all agree on that. It should not take the DEVs changing a game mechanic to make players get along better. This is very childish if you think about it.

On the whole I think many of us actually agree with one another more than we think.

People do need to change. People also need to be more flexible in what jobs they play or accept in their groups. It is so frustrating when people only want bst for something or blue for something, and leave everyone else out in the cold. SR can be done just as fast with DD, Brd, Geo, and a tank. We done it with Dnc, pld, 2x geo, brd (dding brd at that), and a cor, and mixed it up, and we normally kill in 9 min with clear in SR if that. Asking for just bst to a group is kinda meh cause it is not like you can not do those fights fast with other jobs. Anyway ideally it would be great if everyone got along but in reality probably wouldn't happen.

[Cyleena]

You come on here talking about people bashing anyone who says they don't like bst, but then say you can do things faster without bst. That's the very definition of bashing. You're basically just saying that other people should have their job nerfed just because you don't like it. You even provide anecdotal evidence that other jobs already outperform it. What do you expect people to do when you go on the internet and basically say "I think they should ruin your fun because I don't like you"?

So you are putting words in my mouth. Good job. I never said either way if bst should or should not be nerfed, so do not even go there with me. I never said we can kill faster then bst. I said just as fast ( in other words it can be done with or without bst at about the same speed), so please reread my post if you read it wrong....and if you going to use what I say make sure its right and stop trying to make stuff up and cause drama please.

[Sogoro]

Bazooka, I think you might find that you and Cyleena would actually agree on many things. Cyleena has never said BST should be nerfed and also that other options exist to actually do content. The whole point is that BST is okay, its the problem with people only wanting BST. I logged in to talk with Cyleena in the game to gather better perspective and so forth.

Many of us actually agree with eachother and dont feel that anything should be nerfed, but that players need to think better. I think maybe 1 or 2 people who have spoken in here are the ones who actually want BST to be nerfed because they just simply dont like BST.

The original post is probably the worst offender here. The assumption that BST is easy to mid level content only is ridiculous.

[Cyleena]

Bazooka, I think you might find that you and Cyleena would actually agree on many things. Cyleena has never said BST should be nerfed and also that other options exist to actually do content. The whole point is that BST is okay, its the problem with people only wanting BST. I logged in to talk with Cyleena in the game to gather better perspective and so forth.

Many of us actually agree with eachother and dont feel that anything should be nerfed, but that players need to think better. I think maybe 1 or 2 people who have spoken in here are the ones who actually want BST to be nerfed because they just simply dont like BST.

The original post is probably the worst offender here. The assumption that BST is easy to mid level content only is ridiculous.

We actually had a nice long talk on game about bst and such, and you got to see all the bst shouts I was talking about :P. Thanks for the tells Sogoro. Glad you came on game and yeah there is many ways to do content not just with bsts, and there is other options out there to do content, and I wish people were more open to trying different setups and things. As Sogoro even saw in shouts on Asura people were even shouting for bst with cap JP etc to join their runs when to be honest that is really not needed. It is just the player base and how they are set with doing things the way they want too, and do not look at the full potential of other jobs out there as well.

[bazookatooth]

So you are putting words in my mouth. Good job. I never said either way if bst should or should not be nerfed, so do not even go there with me.

So what were you saying below? That bst does not need a nerf, but that you think people should be able to go on here and ask for it to be nerfed without anyone pointing out that it shouldn't? Because if you were trying to be neutral, you definitely didn't come off that way.


Maybe it is more of the fact that beast is very disliked atm but people do not want to come on here and get bashed like the bst seem to be doing to anyone that talks bad about the job and mention the word nerf.

So let's be very clear here. If you don't think BST needs to be nerfed and you aren't here to cause drama, what EXACTLY is your point? Because it sure seems like you just said that the job should be nerfed for the simple fact that some people don't like it. So please. Make it abundantly clear what you're trying to accomplish with the above statement.

[dasva]

Maybe it is more of the fact that beast is very disliked atm but people do not want to come on here and get bashed like the bst seem to be doing to anyone that talks bad about the job and mention the word nerf. I hear tons of people on the actual game say how much they dislike how bst is and cannot wait until the nerf. Just because it is not getting tons of people on the official forum saying stuff does not mean that people are happy about bst. I hear complaints daily about bst on ffxi lol. My LS hates me even having bst come to events, and I hear about it if I even have anyone on bst. People complain in shouts on Asura, etc. All the shouts nowadays are bst bst bst bst bst. People are liking the easy way to kill stuff, and only want bst to join their groups, which does make a lot of people unhappy.

Bst has always kind of been the red head step child though. Way before our pets could even hit anything people would hate on me for using it. Anyways this really seems to be more of a server problem. Asura people are saying all you see want for bst but on Shiva everyone wants nukers and the shouts for schs always even specify the want for ones that can skillchain. Makes me want to go back to my blm and put more effort back into it. The only consistent shouts for bst I see are from Samus and he is shouting for 10 other jobs for 18 man vagary and DM lol

[dasva]

The original post is probably the worst offender here. The assumption that BST is easy to mid level content only is ridiculous.
Haha totally missed that one. Yeah it can definitely be used in higher content though bandwagons will have a considerably hard time

[Cyleena]

So what were you saying below? That bst does not need a nerf, but that you think people should be able to go on here and ask for it to be nerfed without anyone pointing out that it shouldn't? Because if you were trying to be neutral, you definitely didn't come off that way.



So let's be very clear here. If you don't think BST needs to be nerfed and you aren't here to cause drama, what EXACTLY is your point? Because it sure seems like you just said that the job should be nerfed for the simple fact that some people don't like it. So please. Make it abundantly clear what you're trying to accomplish with the above statement.

First of all I am not the one turning what other people are saying or making up words to start stuff. I was responding to Dasva saying that there is not as many people on this forum complaining about bst then there was about thf's. All I was saying was that I know SEVERAL people who read these forums but are not bothering to post because of people like you who are trying to stir up trouble and troll, and cause drama over everything someone says, so stop trying to turn everything I say into something that is not true.

Just because people are choosing not to get into this highly debated, very hot topic that gets people like you all upset and wanting to create even more drama does not mean that everyone is all happy about beastmasters. I deal with lots of people on game daily and I hear all about unhappy people over bsts, so I know not everyone likes what is going on with them. Did I say anything bad about bsts? No. Did I say they need to be nerfed? No. I gave my opinion by what I have seen and heard about why people are staying off this forum about it. Big deal. Move on and stop trying to start trouble.

[Cyleena]

Bst has always kind of been the red head step child though. Way before our pets could even hit anything people would hate on me for using it. Anyways this really seems to be more of a server problem. Asura people are saying all you see want for bst but on Shiva everyone wants nukers and the shouts for schs always even specify the want for ones that can skillchain. Makes me want to go back to my blm and put more effort back into it. The only consistent shouts for bst I see are from Samus and he is shouting for 10 other jobs for 18 man vagary and DM lol

It very well could be a server thing. Before bst became powerful it was all mages as well that was wanted on Asura (Vagary etc kinda forced that). Now it is totally all bst for almost anything, which I hear complaints about from others daily about groups only wanting bst. Sogoro and I were even watching shouts last night in town and talking and people were shouting for only bst with cap JP for a Escha RuAun T3 NM (not Morta), which is totally not needed but this guy was saying he wanted guaranteed win etc.

I totally know bst been the red head step child. Before bst got powerful it was not used for anything besides being solo, and a lot of people on game still feel that it should be for that. I have heard many people say that. I have two people in my LS with bst geared for endgame, and I have brought them to events a handful of times but bst is not very well liked in my ls. I get lots of complaints if I bring pet jobs because people do not think we should be wasting buffs for them, etc. My LS is more mage heavy and does not have many pet jobs, (2 bst, and a few smn is all and they not "main" jobs but geared and ready to use). I am kinda stuck in the middle with using pet jobs in event. If I do not bring them then they are unhappy. If I do then everyone else is unhappy. Sigh, sometimes it sucks to be a leader of a LS. I try to make everyone happy but realistically that is not possible.

[Olor]

Most the people getting upset about bst and the potential nerfs are bandwagon bsts. I know of a few on Asura who get really upset if you say you do not want them on bst, or if you mention about nerf to them (they totally were not main bst before this all happened). There is a lot of people in this forum getting upset about it too if you read past posts, and on other forums as well. Realistically unless you were soloing before bst got more powerful you did not main bst as your job. I do not know of anyone in all the years I have played this game that can honestly say bst is their main job until recently when all of a sudden everyone went bst nutso. People started bandwagoning bst when it got powerful, and now go out for blood if they think you are against having bst in your group and get nasty (and yes it seems like the more serious bst are not the ones bashing but the ones that jumped on it when it became relevant).

People weren't on BST because it was certifiably terrible before it got recent boosts. I have considered BST one of my mains for a long time... others in this thread defending have been posting about BST for ages...

Also it's ridiculous to barge into this thread and claim Dasva is trying to create drama - when they have been interested in BST for years and have always been a part of BST threads on here.

As far as I can tell you're argument is "people don't like BST so its okay that they are demanding it gets nerfed so they never have to play with a BST"

Frankly, I think it's ludicrous for people to "not like" a job so much that they demand that it's made so bad no one can play it. If you don't like a job, play something else! Why ruin other people's fun?

[bazookatooth]

First of all I am not the one turning what other people are saying or making up words to start stuff. I was responding to Dasva saying that there is not as many people on this forum complaining about bst then there was about thf's. All I was saying was that I know SEVERAL people who read these forums but are not bothering to post because of people like you who are trying to stir up trouble and troll, and cause drama over everything someone says, so stop trying to turn everything I say into something that is not true.

Just because people are choosing not to get into this highly debated, very hot topic that gets people like you all upset and wanting to create even more drama does not mean that everyone is all happy about beastmasters. I deal with lots of people on game daily and I hear all about unhappy people over bsts, so I know not everyone likes what is going on with them. Did I say anything bad about bsts? No. Did I say they need to be nerfed? No. I gave my opinion by what I have seen and heard about why people are staying off this forum about it. Big deal. Move on and stop trying to start trouble.

So in other words I was right and you have no logical response other than to blab about drama. Well this works both ways. There are people reading this who agree with me but don't bother to post because the people calling for nerfs attack them. I hear all sorts of people unhappy about the nerf. Far more than there are happy about it (seriously, what kind of a person gets happy about this stuff?). A lot of people don't bother to post because there are screenshots, youtube videos and spreadsheets that disprove a lot of dumb arguments about bst being the best DD and soloing things that no other job can solo, but the people who make those claims ignore that and continue to say the same things. Who would want to talk to a person like that?

[Cyleena]

People weren't on BST because it was certifiably terrible before it got recent boosts. I have considered BST one of my mains for a long time... others in this thread defending have been posting about BST for ages...

Realistically speaking before the big boost there was not that many who thought of bst as a main job. Yes, there is some out there, and it is mostly people who would solo a lot on game. End game shells never looked for bst to join before they became powerful. I run a end game LS and deal with tons of people on game, and I can not really think of any who consider bst main before they made beast powerful that did not solo a lot. I am not saying they are not out there, I am just saying that unless you soloed a lot other jobs were more used. I have handled lots of applications from people and I can not think of any over the years that said bst was main. That being said I know there is people out there that consider it their main but since it became more powerful there was a lot of bandwagon people that jumped on just like there was when thf, blue, etc became powerful. It is how it goes, and we all know that. I was just saying that this whole thing is a very touchy topic off forum and on the forums. I have seen people talk bad about bsts in groups I was in and the people who were on bst were saying they were going to log off etc just cause it got them that upset (bst was not their main, and they did bandwagon it), and I have seen this happen more then once. I know of some people who even have joked about bst or teased people who were on bst about it needing to be nerfed (I did not say it did so please do not twist these words), and the people on bst get super upset over it. That being said this happens anytime any job gets powerful, look at sam, thf etc when they all got boosted, then eventually nerfed.

It is kinda sad that a person cannot even come on the forums and give personal opinions and experiences without people twisting their words, and trying to put words in their mouth (not talking about you Olor). Especially when they have not even said anything bad about the job, or said it needed to be nerfed. I can see people wanting to defend the job they love but people not even saying anything bad about the job are being criticized, and having words twisted into something they not even said.

[Olor]

If they had said bst was their main you wouldn't have accepted their application cause BST was terrible... so of course no one said BST was their main. Anyway, I don't see why it matters to people that other folks play BST. I've heard people %^&*talk BST before and gotten upset - because it's so unnecessarily mean. Why put down other players just because they like a job you don't.

Gosh I remember when people used BST more to farm dynamis. People whined and moaned and yelled at BSTs all day because of that. And we were nerfed, even though we weren't good for much but soloing but people couldn't even deal with that!

PS: watching Asura shouts now. So far we have shouts for:

1 BST
1 MNK
1 NIN
1 WAR
1 THF
1 BRD
2 PLD
2 COR
2 GEO
2 WHM

I am not seeing how having one shout asking for a BST is SOOOOO horrible for other players.

[Cyleena]

If they had said bst was their main you wouldn't have accepted their application cause BST was terrible... so of course no one said BST was their main

I think it all comes down to the individual LS and the setups they like to use. I know of some LS that did have bst in them. If you have a mage heavy LS then bst might not fit in. If you have a lot of DD then bst might be a better fit. Mixing bst and mages in setups do not work too well as a lot of us have found out.

Also, we actually did have bst as one of the jobs listed on the applications for a long time and I do not remember many people actually checking that as having that job geared and leveled to be honest. I know some might have intentionally left it off but to be honest I like people to have a variety of jobs available not just one so that I can rotate what jobs people come on as, so that people are not stuck on the same job all the time.

That being said it does depend on the setups of each individual LS and what kind of strats they like to use to get things accomplished. Even though my LS might not be a pet LS, I have no issues with other LS's that use pets.

[dasva]

It very well could be a server thing. Before bst became powerful it was all mages as well that was wanted on Asura (Vagary etc kinda forced that). Now it is totally all bst for almost anything, which I hear complaints about from others daily about groups only wanting bst. Sogoro and I were even watching shouts last night in town and talking and people were shouting for only bst with cap JP for a Escha RuAun T3 NM (not Morta), which is totally not needed but this guy was saying he wanted guaranteed win etc.

I totally know bst been the red head step child. Before bst got powerful it was not used for anything besides being solo, and a lot of people on game still feel that it should be for that. I have heard many people say that. I have two people in my LS with bst geared for endgame, and I have brought them to events a handful of times but bst is not very well liked in my ls. I get lots of complaints if I bring pet jobs because people do not think we should be wasting buffs for them, etc. My LS is more mage heavy and does not have many pet jobs, (2 bst, and a few smn is all and they not "main" jobs but geared and ready to use). I am kinda stuck in the middle with using pet jobs in event. If I do not bring them then they are unhappy. If I do then everyone else is unhappy. Sigh, sometimes it sucks to be a leader of a LS. I try to make everyone happy but realistically that is not possible.

Also depends on content... I don't think anything but mages was ever popular for vagary here other than having sams for skillchaining. But for other stuff before bsts it was generally either mages or rngs for safer content (though rngs have really lost popularity since the enmity update) and sam, blu and/or thf for melee dmg blu especially when mixed dmg, terror and/or requiescat was good. But yeah of the shouts I could read last night 1 was for lol 18 man vagary which was looking for blm, bst, brd, pld, whm, sch, brd, cor, geo and pld. Then there was like 3 SR shouts all of them asking for whm, geo, blm and sch (that can skillchain). Speaking of server shout differences just how common are shouts for higher up escha because we don't see hardly any over here at least English ones during NA/JP time (I'm rarely on during EU time)

Part of that was it was basically just a bad axe warrior that could dump it's hate (which actually was useful at times in pt play). I did manage to do decent dmg when all out geared for it... but no one would give me buffs. But yeah it was basically a sub par DD which means unused so had so solo and durdle things to death. My current ls is weird. It's a pet ls so almost everyone either has a pet job, support for those pets, pld or whm. That said most of us have mages as well and since jug are often suboptimal especially for the ones not really well geared we almost as often use mage/smn strategies. Though since not all do it leads to some interesting things like AoEing stuff with mages and pets... which sorta works. It also probably doesn't help that our best geared bsts are also our best geared plds lol. Or that we have so few cors/geos

[Cyleena]

If they had said bst was their main you wouldn't have accepted their application cause BST was terrible... so of course no one said BST was their main. Anyway, I don't see why it matters to people that other folks play BST. I've heard people %^&*talk BST before and gotten upset - because it's so unnecessarily mean. Why put down other players just because they like a job you don't.

Gosh I remember when people used BST more to farm dynamis. People whined and moaned and yelled at BSTs all day because of that. And we were nerfed, even though we weren't good for much but soloing but people couldn't even deal with that!

PS: watching Asura shouts now. So far we have shouts for:

1 BST
1 MNK
1 NIN
1 WAR
1 THF
1 BRD
2 PLD
2 COR
2 GEO
2 WHM

I am not seeing how having one shout asking for a BST is SOOOOO horrible for other players.

You kinda forgot to mention that there has been two VW shouts, a Marjami delve, and only one Escha shout atm. People need proc jobs for VW still so I can see they not going to bring lots of bst, Marjami people still prefer rng method, and since there is no SR or other Escha shouts out there atm then sure there is not much going on atm. Wait until there is SR or more Escha shouts then talk about the shouts. lol. Me and Sogoro were sitting on game last night chatting and we saw multiple shouts (All the SR and Escha shouts required bst, and some even wanted capped JP beast only). You can not take one day that has lots of VW shouts as a way to say it is sooo horrible. lol. That is a small sample in the big window of things. lol

[Cyleena]

Also depends on content... I don't think anything but mages was ever popular for vagary here other than having sams for skillchaining. But for other stuff before bsts it was generally either mages or rngs for safer content (though rngs have really lost popularity since the enmity update) and sam, blu and/or thf for melee dmg blu especially when mixed dmg, terror and/or requiescat was good. But yeah of the shouts I could read last night 1 was for lol 18 man vagary which was looking for blm, bst, brd, pld, whm, sch, brd, cor, geo and pld. Then there was like 3 SR shouts all of them asking for whm, geo, blm and sch (that can skillchain). Speaking of server shout differences just how common are shouts for higher up escha because we don't see hardly any over here at least English ones during NA/JP time (I'm rarely on during EU time)

Part of that was it was basically just a bad axe warrior that could dump it's hate (which actually was useful at times in pt play). I did manage to do decent dmg when all out geared for it... but no one would give me buffs. But yeah it was basically a sub par DD which means unused so had so solo and durdle things to death. My current ls is weird. It's a pet ls so almost everyone either has a pet job, support for those pets, pld or whm. That said most of us have mages as well and since jug are often suboptimal especially for the ones not really well geared we almost as often use mage/smn strategies. Though since not all do it leads to some interesting things like AoEing stuff with mages and pets... which sorta works. It also probably doesn't help that our best geared bsts are also our best geared plds lol. Or that we have so few cors/geos

Totally agree about the content affecting things. Vagary was built with mages in mind. With most those mobs DD dmg is not good, and unless you want to pop T4/T5 dd is not really needed. When skirmish first came out it was mostly mages for ele in Yorcia then they changed it up and made it so need a mixture. Rng was used for lots of stuff including DM2, Delve, etc but now they kinda got put on the back burner as well.

The shouts on Asura are hard to predict. Today we seeing lots of VW shouts. (Pil and Kaggen), Marjami Delve, and only one Escha T2 atm. We do have a lot of SR shouts normally along with Escha but some days are slower then others on shouts, and it varies greatly from day to day what the shouts will be. The other day people were shouting for bsts only in skirmish, which I heard a lot of complaints about from others.

We have had in the past 18 man delve pet burn shouts (one or two months ago). Not sure how well it did but he shouted for several days to do this, and I think he did it for Vagary too.

Asura shouts for SR almost always ask for bst here, and rarely do you see a shout for anything other then pld, geo, whm, cor, and bst.

[Cyleena]

Oh and look a Tenzen shout for normal asking for a bst... lol

[bazookatooth]

In other words just ignore the evidence that contradicts what you were saying....

[Ulth]

Vagary was built with mages in mind.

Yeah that really sucks. I wish they would just remove the clear requirement for reforging empy +1 because of this.

[Cyleena]

In other words just ignore the evidence that contradicts what you were saying....

The evidence that you are making up? Sure. I never once said anything bad about bst, or that it should be nerfed, I even said I have brought them to my events yet you keep twisting things to make it sound like I am saying all that because somewhere in your head everyone on here hates bst, and there can be no one posting in this forum that does not play bst that is actually not hating on the job. Ok, I get it.

Btw, why are you hiding on a level 1 mule when the rest of us are commenting from our main. Why hide who you are? Is it because you like to troll, and twist things that people say for your own pleasure of it? The only comment I have made about bst is all the shouts for it on Asura, and the fact that I hear lots off complaints about it off forum, so I answered Dasva question about why people are not posting. We see people get hot headed over this topic on game and in forums and some people do not feel like going around about it because it will accomplish nothing. Some people do not like arguing over this stuff unlike others on here.

[Cyleena]

Yeah that really sucks. I wish they would just remove the clear requirement for reforging empy +1 because of this.

Yeah, it does suck but it is what it is. :( I guess it is in a way how they are trying to make mage jobs needed again after so long being mainly DD wanted.

[bazookatooth]

The evidence that you are making up? Sure. I never once said anything bad about bst, or that it should be nerfed, I even said I have brought them to my events yet you keep twisting things to make it sound like I am saying all that because somewhere in your head everyone on here hates bst, and there can be no one posting in this forum that does not play bst that is actually not hating on the job. Ok, I get it.

Btw, why are you hiding on a level 1 mule when the rest of us are commenting from our main. Why hide who you are? Is it because you like to troll, and twist things that people say for your own pleasure of it? The only comment I have made about bst is all the shouts for it on Asura, and the fact that I hear lots off complaints about it off forum, so I answered Dasva question about why people are not posting. We see people get hot headed over this topic on game and in forums and some people do not feel like going around about it because it will accomplish nothing. Some people do not like arguing over this stuff unlike others on here.

You say all shouts are for BST. Guy posts list of shouts on your server clearly demonstrating that what you said isn't true. You try to ignore that. How is that twisting words?

And What does my character info have to do with the discussion? Why should I be afraid to say who I am? are you going to harass me elsewhere?

[Cyleena]

You say all shouts are for BST. Guy posts list of shouts on your server clearly demonstrating that what you said isn't true. You try to ignore that. How is that twisting words?

And What does my character info have to do with the discussion? Why should I be afraid to say who I am? are you going to harass me elsewhere?

He picked a day full of VW shouts to say that lol. He needs to be on when there is SR etc shouts. I am not the only one who seen this on Asura. Even Sogoro came on the game last night and sent me a tell saying you are right there is lots of bst shouts.

And seriously plz, do not flatter yourself into thinking that I would want to harass you. You are the one on here saying that people are saying stuff that they never said, etc. I have a right to defend myself from baseless accusations on here. I just think its kinda pathetic that someone has to act like you are acting and be hiding on a mule like they do not want others to know who they really are. I am not afraid to show my char name, and from what I am seeing most others are not either. Too bad there has to be people like you on the forum. Most people on here are pretty cool people. Anyway you like to start stuff up with everyone I hear so I am just going to ignore you and your baseless accusations and carry on.

[bazookatooth]

He picked a day full of VW shouts to say that lol. He needs to be on when there is SR etc shouts. I am not the only one who seen this on Asura. Even Sogoro came on the game last night and sent me a tell saying you are right there is lots of bst shouts.

So we're only supposed to look at the shouts if they say what you want them to say.... sounds logical. /smh


And seriously plz, do not flatter yourself into thinking that I would want to harass you. You are the one on here saying that people are saying stuff that they never said, etc. I have a right to defend myself from baseless accusations on here. I just think its kinda pathetic that someone has to act like you are acting and be hiding on a mule like they do not want others to know who they really are. I am not afraid to show my char name, and from what I am seeing most others are not either. Anyway you like to start stuff up with everyone I hear so I am just going to ignore you and your baseless accusations and carry on.

When you say that I'm hiding, it implies that I have something to be hiding from. That sounds like a threat if ever I heard one. And you are harassing me. You've taken a topic that was loosely going on about the strengths and weaknesses of different jobs (centered primarily around BST) and turned it into a conversation about how people just don't like beast masters and how people are scared to show their identities. None of what you are saying is relevant in any way to the topic. It's all just vitriol about who hates what job the most.

[Cyleena]

So we're only supposed to look at the shouts if they say what you want them to say.... sounds logical. /smh



When you say that I'm hiding, it implies that I have something to be hiding from. That sounds like a threat if ever I heard one. And you are harassing me. You've taken a topic that was loosely going on about the strengths and weaknesses of different jobs (centered primarily around BST) and turned it into a conversation about how people just don't like beast masters and how people are scared to show their identities. None of what you are saying is relevant in any way to the topic. It's all just vitriol about who hates what job the most.

You do not know what threat or harassment means I guess. Go read the definition. I did not threaten you or anyone on here. Anyway I am done with this because it is pointless and stupid to go around with you and it is not worth anymore of my time. /ignorelist

[dasva]

Oh and look a Tenzen shout for normal asking for a bst... lol

I'd rather use a DD for that... now Ouryu heck yeah the conal moves work he is up. That said it's if you are shouting for specific jobs outside of maybe whm on any Normal high tier battle I'm going to laugh at you. That's more of a sign of people not realizing that is completely soloable and a joke with basically any setup.

It is interesting that current content Asura is bst or broke while Shiva is more or less mage or gtfo though smn was used for awhile. Wonder if it's just prevailing attitudes or if it might have something to do with how well those jobs or generally... or perhaps how good the pertinent support is. Physical dmg in general tends to fall apart without a good amount of -def/evasion on hard content and I have noticed not a lot of great geos over here and while I'm sure some exist I haven't personally seen an Idris so maybe that might have something to do with it? I know a lot of people were complaining about the evasion/meva of SR mobs when it came out so that kind of made smn popular since it has a move that bypasses those checks albeit for meh dmg

[Cyleena]

I'd rather use a DD for that... now Ouryu heck yeah the conal moves work he is up. That said it's if you are shouting for specific jobs outside of maybe whm on any Normal high tier battle I'm going to laugh at you. That's more of a sign of people not realizing that is completely soloable and a joke with basically any setup.

It is interesting that current content Asura is bst or broke while Shiva is more or less mage or gtfo though smn was used for awhile. Wonder if it's just prevailing attitudes or if it might have something to do with how well those jobs or generally... or perhaps how good the pertinent support is. Physical dmg in general tends to fall apart without a good amount of -def/evasion on hard content and I have noticed not a lot of great geos over here and while I'm sure some exist I haven't personally seen an Idris so maybe that might have something to do with it? I know a lot of people were complaining about the evasion/meva of SR mobs when it came out so that kind of made smn popular since it has a move that bypasses those checks albeit for meh dmg

I totally agree with what you are saying about the HTBF setups. Almost any of them can be low manned. I think the current content of Asura is a little bit of both of what you were saying. It is prevailing attitudes mixed with how well the jobs perform. Like I mentioned in other posts me and Sogoro (another poster) were sitting on Asura last night watching shouts while talking in tell, and Sogoro actually talked to someone who was shouting for bst for Escha who wanted capped JP bst only. The guy had the attitude that he wants guaranteed wins for the NM and that is why he was taking cap JP only jobs. You and I both know that cap might help a lot but it is not necessary to get kills. That is just what the person probably saw other groups do and saw the difference it made and and preferred his groups to be that way too.

My experience with people on Asura is that if they are in a group that kills something a certain way and they like that way they are not up for changing setups if they know it kills fast and works. I have been on Asura for several years, and once groups find out strats that work for them (my group is guilty of this somewhat as well) we tend to stick to that setup. The mind set is kill fast so they can spam and get more kills in and more chances of drops/gear. The support also is a thing as well. DD setups need way more support then groups with bst, and finding good support people has been getting harder and harder cause not many want to play those rolls anymore. I see this all the time if I have a member quit and I try to find someone to replace them on a support roll level.

[kylani]

Realistically speaking before the big boost there was not that many who thought of bst as a main job. Yes, there is some out there, and it is mostly people who would solo a lot on game. End game shells never looked for bst to join before they became powerful. I run a end game LS and deal with tons of people on game, and I can not really think of any who consider bst main before they made beast powerful that did not solo a lot. I am not saying they are not out there, I am just saying that unless you soloed a lot other jobs were more used. I have handled lots of applications from people and I can not think of any over the years that said bst was main. That being said I know there is people out there that consider it their main but since it became more powerful there was a lot of bandwagon people that jumped on just like there was when thf, blue, etc became powerful. It is how it goes, and we all know that. I was just saying that this whole thing is a very touchy topic off forum and on the forums. I have seen people talk bad about bsts in groups I was in and the people who were on bst were saying they were going to log off etc just cause it got them that upset (bst was not their main, and they did bandwagon it), and I have seen this happen more then once. I know of some people who even have joked about bst or teased people who were on bst about it needing to be nerfed (I did not say it did so please do not twist these words), and the people on bst get super upset over it. That being said this happens anytime any job gets powerful, look at sam, thf etc when they all got boosted, then eventually nerfed.

It is kinda sad that a person cannot even come on the forums and give personal opinions and experiences without people twisting their words, and trying to put words in their mouth (not talking about you Olor). Especially when they have not even said anything bad about the job, or said it needed to be nerfed. I can see people wanting to defend the job they love but people not even saying anything bad about the job are being criticized, and having words twisted into something they not even said.

I did feel that your comments were negative initially too, but I hope it's just differences between servers/perceptions. When I hear bandwagon bsts and that no one really had a bst main till the job became 'overpowered', it raises my hackles a bit. I'm glad I'm not on Asura. :)

I'm not a bandwagon BST. I have known some wonderful BSTs who were full of fun and a joy to play with. I loved the job best when leveling to 75 and charm was the main way to level. I found it exciting and different. I still remember the joy of getting leave. Back then before leave, you had to have your pet die or mischarm before the mob you were killing died or take exp hit. With leave, you still had to time when to let go, but at least you had more control. It was a godsend. Leave isn't much of a deal anymore, lol, but I still enjoy BST most and consider BST my main job.

I think that ever since leveling became easier, there have always been people who will switch to the flavor of the month job, and there always will be. The hatred that I've seen towards BST seems new and particularly unpleasant to me.

As leader of a ls, I bet you've said or heard, if you want to participate in end game, level the job that's needed. Now that folks are switching to BST because it's useful, BST are all bad players that everyone else hates. Was every person who ever switched to BRD/SAM/MONK/WHM etc to get end game gear also labeled as bad players with jobs that need nerfing? I don't understand why BST is so different. Content can be done with other jobs. It's the people who have the perception. It sounds like we agree on that part of the equation.

Even though BST is my favorite job, I have never been in an endgame ls with BST as main. When I joined my first Dynamis ls, I agreed to play RDM but wanted to list BST as my main for the relic, and the leader listed me as RDM anyway. He told me no one wanted BST gear so I'd get it on free lot easily, and he was right. Often, the BST relic just dropped because no one even wanted it on free lot. I get why BST hasn't been wanted. My leader would have let me play as BST (and my ls would, my ls was AWESOME!), but I knew the issues with BST so I played the most helpful job I had.

I duoed thru Abyssea with a PUP, and it was great fun, but other jobs could solo/duo far quicker with less risk and less cost. BST was a joke for Delve and Skirmish. I think any job could hit better than my pet. I know our WHM did (though he was a truly amazing WHM, so I'm not sure it's fair to go by him. I just know my pet whiffed with all the accuracy pet gear i could drum up). So I played BRD and BLM, occasionally RDM. My pup friend leveled PLD and SMN. We never fussed about how OP monks were with Formless Strikes. Much fun as we had completing the content, I got burned out working for gear for jobs I didn't love instead of playing BST or RDM, so I took a break. When I came back, I promised myself I would not do end game and haven't. I've focused on story and leveling whatever I felt like leveling, and it's been great.

Now that BST is good for content and folks are hating on it so badly, it rankles. I have friends who win without BST just fine. Do you really think people need BST to win the Tenzen fight? If so, then maybe Asura has bigger problems than too many BSTs. Maybe on Asura, people playing other jobs are terrible.

[Olor]

If they were being honest, they would have noted BST was shouted as an option for that tenzen shout not a requirement. They were also shouting for a whm iirc. So 3 whm. Whm is overpowered, needs to be nerft, amirite? After all, shouts favour whms! (bad logic)

I checked a random time and recorded what was being shouted for. BST was not as in demand as pld, whm, cor or geo. That's what I see *all the time* on Asura. Shouts for PLD and for support jobs. Yes, once in awhile there is a shout for a BST. Why is that a problem? Lots of jobs get shouted for. Why is it only a problem when for once in the 13 years of FFXI history - people want to have a bst in their party for a couple of events?

Just checked now. What do I see?

Unity shout: Tank Whm
Vagary Brash gate: GEO BLU WHM or RDM
Sinister reign: GEO or BRD
Skirmish: DDX2 WHM GEO or BRD (DD Filled now, just looking for support)
Sinister reign: pst PLD or RUN

proof: http://i.imgur.com/Dzj61e7.jpg

So another random sample, another example - what's most popular? PLD and WHM GEO and BRD.

WAIT I THOUGHT ONLY BST WANTED FOR SR?!?!? Nope. just tanks and mages wanted.

Yes, once in a blue moon people shout for BSTs. But in reality, the same kind of jobs people always shouted for are still most popular. It gets my goat that now that BST isn't just absolutely pointless and terrible for every single relevant event, people are upset.

[dasva]

If they were being honest, they would have noted BST was shouted as an option for that tenzen shout not a requirement. They were also shouting for a whm iirc. So 3 whm. Whm is overpowered, needs to be nerft, amirite? After all, shouts favour whms! (bad logic)
Whm kind of is in a dominate healing position. The solution of course isn't to nerf whm but give other jobs cure V and/or convert hp healed to mp!

[Olor]

Whm kind of is in a dominate healing position. The solution of course isn't to nerf whm but give other jobs cure V and/or convert hp healed to mp!

I agree with this by the way. I would love to see RDM and sch have options to main heal. Whm will still have arise, full cure, benediction, yagrush, etc, but people could try different set ups.

[Cyleena]

If they were being honest, they would have noted BST was shouted as an option for that tenzen shout not a requirement. They were also shouting for a whm iirc. So 3 whm. Whm is overpowered, needs to be nerft, amirite? After all, shouts favour whms! (bad logic)

I checked a random time and recorded what was being shouted for. BST was not as in demand as pld, whm, cor or geo. That's what I see *all the time* on Asura. Shouts for PLD and for support jobs. Yes, once in awhile there is a shout for a BST. Why is that a problem? Lots of jobs get shouted for. Why is it only a problem when for once in the 13 years of FFXI history - people want to have a bst in their party for a couple of events?

Just checked now. What do I see?

Unity shout: Tank Whm
Vagary Brash gate: GEO BLU WHM or RDM
Sinister reign: GEO or BRD
Skirmish: DDX2 WHM GEO or BRD (DD Filled now, just looking for support)
Sinister reign: pst PLD or RUN

proof: http://i.imgur.com/Dzj61e7.jpg

So another random sample, another example - what's most popular? PLD and WHM GEO and BRD.

WAIT I THOUGHT ONLY BST WANTED FOR SR?!?!? Nope. just tanks and mages wanted.

Yes, once in a blue moon people shout for BSTs. But in reality, the same kind of jobs people always shouted for are still most popular. It gets my goat that now that BST isn't just absolutely pointless and terrible for every single relevant event, people are upset.

Look again at shouts:

http://i.imgur.com/LA8dKeP.png

There is 3 SR shouts within the last hour all wanting bst. Some of the shouts you posted were after the bst spot got filled. Of course people will still shout for whm, tank, cor etc after filling other spots. Anyone can go look at shouts and see them.

[kylani]

Look again at shouts:

http://i.imgur.com/LA8dKeP.png

There is 3 SR shouts within the last hour all wanting bst. Some of the shouts you posted were after the bst spot got filled. Of course people will still shout for whm, tank, cor etc after filling other spots. Anyone can go look at shouts and see them.

So you have no trouble with GEO and WHM being wanted for everything, just BST being wanted for SR?

[Cyleena]

I did feel that your comments were negative initially too, but I hope it's just differences between servers/perceptions. When I hear bandwagon bsts and that no one really had a bst main till the job became 'overpowered', it raises my hackles a bit. I'm glad I'm not on Asura. :)

When I was talking about bandwagon bst I was not talking about those that played the job before it got stronger. I was talking about those that had other jobs as main but switched over once that happened just like they do for any other job that gets boosted. I am talking about people I have had experience with, or read about on forums (some of the forum posters I know in game too, so I know if they bandwagon or not). Most of those are the ones that like to get upset and argue if anyone says anything they do not like. They defend these jobs with a passion then once a nerf hits they go back to being main on the job they were before all this happened.

When I said no one had bst main until it became overpowered I was talking about on my server of people that I knew. I was not talking about all bst. It was like when thf Rudra boost came out and all of a sudden all these people started having thf, and making Vajra, etc. Then it got nerfed, and poof most the thf disappeared again besides the occasional thf for treasure hunter.

For example, I have 2 people in my LS that geared beast after it got stronger, and always want to come to events on bst. I have let them come on bst a handful of times. I have to deal with unhappy people because I let bst come to events, unhappy bsts that I call on different jobs, etc. It depends on what your LS has as far as job availability for the event content you do. I have had bandwagon bst threaten to emo log off game since people were saying it should be nerfed, it’s too powerful, etc. (Please do not twist this into I am saying this stuff… I am talking about things I have experienced with others.)

As far as the difference between servers and perceptions this is totally true. Each server has different type of player base, different players with different attitudes, and Asura is very famous for not having the nicest player base, This is evident in town a lot (lately been more quiet but some nights it gets pretty drama filled), and in how people act in shout runs etc. People on Asura are kinda stubborn, and if they find out a setup that works they stick to it and do not change. I am sure this happens on other servers as well but we have a lot of stubborn people on Asura. Lol.


I think that ever since leveling became easier, there have always been people who will switch to the flavor of the month job, and there always will be. The hatred that I've seen towards BST seems new and particularly unpleasant to me.

There is a great deal of people who are switching to the flavor of the month job as you said, and every time there is a job boost this happens. The hatred for bst has been pretty bad, but there was also a lot of hatred to thf, etc when Rudra’s was boosted. Unfortunately, there is always going to be hatred to any job that can do massive dmg, or can match other jobs or outshine others.

I also think that some of the issue is not the job but the players themselves. People give jobs bad reputations. For example, I was in a cp party with a group in Escha. We were at a camp by ourselves off the beaten path, and we were there for like 5 hrs. This bst shows up and starts to AOE our pulls. We ask him to stop and he does not even reply but keeps doing it. He had lots of other mobs in the area he could fight but he just wanted to be a not pleasant person. This got many people in the pt upset with bst cause of this. I know any other job can do the same thing and has done the same thing like blue, blm, geo, etc. Does this make me hate all bst, or blue, or blm? No. But it does make people unhappier with the jobs because of what some people do who play them. Again this comes down to the player base. Do all bst do this or blue or blm or w/e? No. Just a few bad apples can spoil the bunch for some people.


As leader of a ls, I bet you've said or heard, if you want to participate in end game, level the job that's needed. Now that folks are switching to BST because it's useful, BST are all bad players that everyone else hates. Was every person who ever switched to BRD/SAM/MONK/WHM etc to get end game gear also labeled as bad players with jobs that need nerfing? I don't understand why BST is so different. Content can be done with other jobs. It's the people who have the perception. It sounds like we agree on that part of the equation.

I totally agree to the perception and like I have said above and in other posts that some people are just used to doing things a certain way and do not like making changes to setups etc. People also like taking advantage of the fast kills, with minimal support needed. Bst really only needs cor support atm, and maybe an occasional heal, or other tank depending on what you are doing. DD needs tons more support than a bst does, so bst is more favorable because it kills fast, requires minimal support, and does very good dmg.

As far as the level what job is needed of course I have said that and heard that from others. It depends on the game content. Some game content requires more specific setups then others. Like what was mentioned earlier Vagary does not do so well with DD, and is more mage friendly. I have tried to mix bst with our setup but it does not go over well in my LS. We are more mage heavy, and it tends to be hard to do SC etc when you got one or two pets messing it up. If you using Sch to SC or bringing a DD like sam then bst kind of makes it harder to do what strat you want to use, or are accustomed to use. Again this is player perception, and what works for one might not work for another. If you have more pets in your LS you might feel that is the best for you. It really depends on your group, and what jobs are available for the content you want to do.


I duoed thru Abyssea with a PUP, and it was great fun, but other jobs could solo/duo far quicker with less risk and less cost. BST was a joke for Delve and Skirmish. I think any job could hit better than my pet. I know our WHM did (though he was a truly amazing WHM, so I'm not sure it's fair to go by him. I just know my pet whiffed with all the accuracy pet gear i could drum up). So I played BRD and BLM, occasionally RDM. My pup friend leveled PLD and SMN. We never fussed about how OP monks were with Formless Strikes. Much fun as we had completing the content, I got burned out working for gear for jobs I didn't love instead of playing BST or RDM, so I took a break. When I came back, I promised myself I would not do end game and haven't. I've focused on story and leveling whatever I felt like leveling, and it's been great.

I did that in abby too. Lol. We would duo pup and whm. We used to kite the monkey in Abby Latheine that dropped that pup neck just to see if we could when it first came out. That was so much fun, and challenging. We later switched to monk and whm for some of the harder NMs at the time in Abby Ule, etc.


Now that BST is good for content and folks are hating on it so badly, it rankles. I have friends who win without BST just fine. Do you really think people need BST to win the Tenzen fight? If so, then maybe Asura has bigger problems than too many BSTs. Maybe on Asura, people playing other jobs are terrible.

I think it just depends on the group. Some groups do fine without pet jobs, and some do better with pet jobs. At the end of the day it is what works for the group, and their setup. That was actually the first time I seen bst wanted for a Tenzen fight, and I did not recognize the name of the person who shouted, so not sure why they wanted that but if it got them the win that is great.

The biggest issue with shouts is the ones that shout for bsts are mainly Escha and SR, which are the two main content that is most wanted atm, and I hear a lot of complaints that most people just want bst to clear those. I guess others feel left out because they cannot join the shouts? Idk.

[Ulth]

So you have no trouble with GEO and WHM being wanted for everything, just BST being wanted for SR?

At least with whm they only want the one whm, geo on the other hand, people like to geo all the things and sometimes want multiple geos.

[Cyleena]

So you have no trouble with GEO and WHM being wanted for everything, just BST being wanted for SR?

You can do shouts without geo and whm. Bst perform better with cor and geo buffs though, but if you need a healer you can do it with rdm, sch, anything that cures. It is people not being more willing to try different setups that people complain about.


At least with whm they only want the one whm, geo on the other hand, people like to geo all the things and sometimes want multiple geos.

I agree. You do not even need two geo for SR. We did it tonight with just one, and it was np. There is many ways and setups to doing SR, and I agree multiple geo are not necessary.

[kylani]

At least with whm they only want the one whm, geo on the other hand, people like to geo all the things and sometimes want multiple geos.

I'm definitely not asking that either get nerfed. I just find the dichotomy interesting.

[kylani]

For example, I have 2 people in my LS that geared beast after it got stronger, and always want to come to events on bst. I have let them come on bst a handful of times. I have to deal with unhappy people because I let bst come to events, unhappy bsts that I call on different jobs, etc. It depends on what your LS has as far as job availability for the event content you do. I have had bandwagon bst threaten to emo log off game since people were saying it should be nerfed, it’s too powerful, etc. (Please do not twist this into I am saying this stuff… I am talking about things I have experienced with others.)

As far as the difference between servers and perceptions this is totally true. Each server has different type of player base, different players with different attitudes, and Asura is very famous for not having the nicest player base, This is evident in town a lot (lately been more quiet but some nights it gets pretty drama filled), and in how people act in shout runs etc. People on Asura are kinda stubborn, and if they find out a setup that works they stick to it and do not change. I am sure this happens on other servers as well but we have a lot of stubborn people on Asura. Lol.


Thanks for the info. I can understand frustrations within a ls. I feel I've been fortunate with the LS I've been in, but there has still been some drama in the end game ones, and cliques in the smaller ones. It's hard to make everyone happy. Good luck. You've made me appreciate my server and friends all the more. :)

[Cyleena]

I'm definitely not asking that either get nerfed. I just find the dichotomy interesting.

You can easily replace the whm with another job that cures like I mentioned, and your group might not need a curer and you can bring something else if you want like a second cor. You can take brd instead of geo as well. Most the shouts that want geo though are ones that have bst in setup. Brd does not work good for bst buffs, and geo and cor are very wanted for bst setup. I have heard a lot of people who have brd geared and leveled complain about not being wanted anymore for runs because of this. Just depends on the setup, and the person leading the run.

Not every shout on Asura is for bst. Of course you do not need bst for VW, skirmish etc. But if you watch shouts there is rarely a SR shout, or Escha shout (especially RuAun) that does not ask for bst, and I hear the complaints about it all the time. It is just the player base and perspective as mentioned in other posts. It sucks for those that do not have pet jobs leveled to join any of that content atm, and that might not have groups to go with but on the other hand this has always been a issue anytime a job gets a boost. Look at all the jobs not being used anymore like war, drk, etc. I know people who made mythic war and they never use them anymore. A lot of people have been left out and had to adjust to the times of the game.

[Cyleena]

Thanks for the info. I can understand frustrations within a ls. I feel I've been fortunate with the LS I've been in, but there has still been some drama in the end game ones, and cliques in the smaller ones. It's hard to make everyone happy. Good luck. You've made me appreciate my server and friends all the more. :)

It is totally frustrating. I even gave my 2 bst a personal cor as a buffer (sometimes a mule, sometimes a main cor plus geo buffs etc) for themselves and the cor, and that did not sit well with others (this is mainly cause the bst we bring are kinda demanding and want certain buffs and get grouchy if they do not get them). It can end up being really stressful, and frustrating. My LS does not have that many people with pet jobs leveled and geared though. We have 2 bst that are, and a couple smn, and everyone else has mage and dd leveled and geared that they utilize. If we had more pet jobs maybe it would be different, idk. We always run with 12+ people, so only having a couple pet jobs and a bunch of mages kinda makes it awkward for setup not to mention that the bst always want idris buffs instead of buffs from the non idris geo, etc.

Btw most times like I mentioned the cor is a mule being duo boxed, and if it is a main cor they shoot, etc to do dmg, and participate even though in bst pt. Like I said my group goes with 12+ (most times 14-15 people, so we do not have just a tank pt, and a mage pt but have a 3rd pt as well that the bst would sit in, with a cor). My mage pt is usually full with blm, geo, rdm, and sch, and do not need cor rolls. We normally never have a lack of geo (3-4 geo with us, and have 2 idris geo though sometimes one has to play a different job). We work with what jobs we have available for those who are with us on runs. Like I said before my group is mage heavy and hardly do not have any pet jobs.

It is hard to make everyone happy though I try. Sometimes it just makes you want to hit your head on the desk. lol

[Olor]

Another random time:

Fenrir: PLD RUN GEO BRD THF
Capacity points: GEO SCH
Capacity points: GEO SCH BLM RDM COR
unity: PLD WHM

No BST shouts since I got online... I don't know. I hear people *say* that there is so many BST shouts but somehow I never see them either when I am afk in Jeuno or when I look at ffxiah shouts... yes, I see one event sometimes asks for BST, but even then not always and the jobs most in demand most of the time are PLD GEO and WHM but no one is asking for those jobs to be nerfed

proof: http://i.imgur.com/fRgo90E.jpg

[bazookatooth]

Cor rolls last like what 7 minutes? Most fights don't even last that long. You can apply them before the fight and then put the cor back in the mage / DD party. In many cases that would be the same party the bsts are in already. There is absolutely no reason for the cor to have to be dedicated to the bst party. If that is what you're doing then you are doing it wrong. No job should ever get to use 1 job ability before a fight and then just sit there and get the win. If you put a cor in a bst party just to sit there and watch them kill it instead of having them buff the rest of your group, then people have a right to be angry about it. But they should be mad at you and that cor who's just sitting there. Not the bst.

Do yourself and everyone else a favor. If you're in escha, put that cor in the bst party, have him give them rolls and then go to whatever other party needs support. If the fight drags on, swapping a cor in and out once is going to be well worth the effort of writing one party invite macro. If you're in sinister reign, he can apply bst rolls and then go stand on the other side of the arena and support the whm / geo / pld /DDs with rolls away from the bsts. If you're doing it right, the bst should never need to be in range of the NMs tp moves or any of the other players other than the 60 seconds it takes to apply their rolls leaving the cor free to roll whatever he wants on everyone else.

[Hoshi]

While BST is certainly popular every current endgame event can be done without BST and in similar (or better) clear times. I don't think there's a problem with BST so much as that the first people to figure out mechanics happen to really like BST. As far as BST and LS events, I understand your dilemma. My LS has a rule that we simply won't play with BST. You can level it on your own time but you may never bring it to LS event. Has worked well for us.

[Cyleena]

Another random time:

Fenrir: PLD RUN GEO BRD THF
Capacity points: GEO SCH
Capacity points: GEO SCH BLM RDM COR
unity: PLD WHM

No BST shouts since I got online... I don't know. I hear people *say* that there is so many BST shouts but somehow I never see them either when I am afk in Jeuno or when I look at ffxiah shouts... yes, I see one event sometimes asks for BST, but even then not always and the jobs most in demand most of the time are PLD GEO and WHM but no one is asking for those jobs to be nerfed

proof: http://i.imgur.com/fRgo90E.jpg

Oh look at shouts now:

http://i.imgur.com/pkF4gna.png

Just because you sign on random times and do not see the odd shout does not mean it does not happen much. Sometimes Asura shouts are dead like last night. The same people last night in the ss you posted were shouting for 3 hours with no other shouts. Look how active the shouts are now. Also, I did not say all shouts were for that certain job. I said I hear a lot of complaints about SR and Escha RuAun shouts especially T2 and T3 being mainly for bst setup. I am sure people would not complain as much if there was shouts for other setups as well but on Asura it is mainly for bst setup with a rare dd shout for SR or Escha T2/T3 once in a blue moon.

I had to have a laugh today because earlier there was actually a shout for SR with DD and the group I was with almost fell out of their chairs of shock. They even made comments in the party about how surprised they were to see it. I was not with shout group but with another group doing SR as well.

[Cyleena]

While BST is certainly popular every current endgame event can be done without BST and in similar (or better) clear times. I don't think there's a problem with BST so much as that the first people to figure out mechanics happen to really like BST. As far as BST and LS events, I understand your dilemma. My LS has a rule that we simply won't play with BST. You can level it on your own time but you may never bring it to LS event. Has worked well for us.

Thanks Hosh for the input into how you handle things, and your view on the matter.

[bazookatooth]

Here's what I see on Asura right now though (1:30 PM JP time):

REMs tales: any job
Escha tier 1: Any job
Unity Arke: Any Job
Yorcia skirmish: Any job
Escha tier 1: RNG or COR
Elvan D: PLD/BRD/WHM, THF, GEO, DD
and one JP Tier 3 Ra'Aun shout that I think might be asking for bst and geo.

EDIT: The tier 3 shout just changed to COR

[dasva]

So basically everyone only shouts bst is really people playing during NA and/or EU time on Asura only want bst? That really sounds like an issue with that particular community to me.

[Hoshi]

I think it's more that the person who said there are only shouts for BST on asura was exaggerating quite a bit.

[Cyleena]

First two quotes from "Anyone unlocked Death yet" thread.


Impossible. No job can out damage BST in sinister reign....


Because no other job gets invited to SR!!!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/48550-Anyone-unlocked-Death-yet


I think it's more that the person who said there are only shouts for BST on asura was exaggerating quite a bit.

You say this but then you say on "Anyone unlocked Death yet" thread that no other jobs besides bst are taken to SR, which is exactly what I been saying in this thread about the shouts on Asura, and you and I both know that SR shouts on Asura are always for bst and rarely for anything else like DD. There is rarely a DD shout for SR, and the majority of shouts for Escha RuAun T2/T3 is for bst as well. I really do not think the majority of the server gives a care about VW shouts (especially seeing how long they have to shout to even get people to go), delve, etc. I have seen people shout for hours for that stuff because not many want to do it anymore. Its the relevant content that people want to do like SR and Escha RuAun T2/T3 that get all the bst love, and get people grumpy about it.

[kylani]

First two quotes from "Anyone unlocked Death yet" thread.





http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/48550-Anyone-unlocked-Death-yet



You say this but then you say on "Anyone unlocked Death yet" thread that no other jobs besides bst are taken to SR, which is exactly what I been saying in this thread about the shouts on Asura, and you and I both know that SR shouts on Asura are always for bst and rarely for anything else like DD. There is rarely a DD shout for SR, and the majority of shouts for Escha RuAun T2/T3 is for bst as well. I really do not think the majority of the server gives a care about VW shouts (especially seeing how long they have to shout to even get people to go), delve, etc. I have seen people shout for hours for that stuff because not many want to do it anymore. Its the relevant content that people want to do like SR and Escha RuAun T2/T3 that get all the bst love, and get people grumpy about it.

The comments seemed sarcastic to me, especially given the person saying this indicated they don't use beastmaster in their runs. It seems GEO gets invited more than any other job, but you only look for/count BST shouts.

[bazookatooth]

First two quotes from "Anyone unlocked Death yet" thread....

You say this but then you say on "Anyone unlocked Death yet" thread that no other jobs besides bst are taken to SR, which is exactly what I been saying in this thread about the shouts on Asura, and you and I both know that SR shouts on Asura are always for bst and rarely for anything else like DD. There is rarely a DD shout for SR, and the majority of shouts for Escha RuAun T2/T3 is for bst as well. I really do not think the majority of the server gives a care about VW shouts (especially seeing how long they have to shout to even get people to go), delve, etc. I have seen people shout for hours for that stuff because not many want to do it anymore. Its the relevant content that people want to do like SR and Escha RuAun T2/T3 that get all the bst love, and get people grumpy about it.

It was sarcasm. Even I missed it at first. Guess where all those pops for those escha T3's that you (supposedly)keep missing out on because you aren't BST come from... Delve. Guess where all the tier 2 pops come from... Unity.

People should be happy about missing out on those Escha shouts for BST anyways. It's far messier and takes more people than just nuking it down. Why try to out lot 12 people when you can do it with 6? And besides that, every one of these escha shouts for "bst only" has to have a GEO and / or a Cor, a PLD and a WHM already as well as some other jobs depending on the NM. If they aren't having trouble finding those jobs (Obviously they aren't if they're "only shouting for BST"), then neither should you. Form your own group. You can do almost all of these with six or seven people using jobs that almost everybody has geared at this point.

And here's the kicker. You are going to have to do it anyways, because those bst strategies are all going away. They didn't change anything to make it easier for you, which means you are going to have to go do what you should have been doing from the get go instead of complaining about BST... Go form your own group and get better.

[Cyleena]

The comments seemed sarcastic to me, especially given the person saying this indicated they don't use beastmaster in their runs. It seems GEO gets invited more than any other job, but you only look for/count BST shouts.

Of course geo gets invited to almost all shouts cause it is a buffer job that is used for any setup including bst. Bst setup needs geo and cor buffs so they will always ask for geo, cor, tank, and a healer. Those are given in almost any setup except cor which is normally replaced for brd depending on the fight. Everyone in here knows that without the buffs bst does not perform as well, so it is kinda funny bst players are complaining about geo, cor, tanks, and healers being needed when they need them just as much as anyone else in the harder fights.

Idris geo is the most powerful job in the game right now, and even without the idris it is pretty powerful. I have seen many people say geo should be nerfed but then it is the ones that utilize the powerfulness of geo to help their groups succeed.

[bazookatooth]

Of course geo gets invited to almost all shouts cause it is a buffer job that is used for any setup including bst. Bst setup needs geo and cor buffs so they will always ask for geo, cor, tank, and a healer. Those are given in almost any setup except cor which is normally replaced for brd depending on the fight. Everyone in here knows that without the buffs bst does not perform as well, so it is kinda funny bst players are complaining about geo, cor, tanks, and healers being needed when they need them just as much as anyone else in the harder fights.

Not complaining. Just pointing out how stupid it is to complain about one job being wanted when other jobs are obviously more desired.

[Cyleena]

It was sarcasm. Even I missed it at first. Guess where all those pops for those escha T3's that you (supposedly)keep missing out on because you aren't BST come from... Delve. Guess where all the tier 2 pops come from... Unity.

People should be happy about missing out on those Escha shouts for BST anyways. It's far messier and takes more people than just nuking it down. Why try to out lot 12 people when you can do it with 6? And besides that, every one of these escha shouts for "bst only" has to have a GEO and / or a Cor, a PLD and a WHM already as well as some other jobs depending on the NM. If they aren't having trouble finding those jobs (Obviously they aren't if they're "only shouting for BST"), then neither should you. Form your own group. You can do almost all of these with six or seven people using jobs that almost everybody has geared at this point.

And here's the kicker. You are going to have to do it anyways, because those bst strategies are all going away. They didn't change anything to make it easier for you, which means you are going to have to go do what you should have been doing from the get go instead of complaining about BST... Go form your own group and get better.

Delve does have the pi for T3, etc but honestly I have not seen that much of a increase in delve shouts for it. Delve is super easy to low man, and so is unity.

You can do all T1 in Escha RuAun at least with duoing with mules. I know people who done it. T2 can be done with under 6, as well as T3. There is a youtube video of T3 being done with 5 and a tank trust. I know all of that is not hard, and I totally agree people should set up their own groups if they want to do something.

Anyway this whole thing started when I was talking about people complaining about the shouts to me, which happens a lot but I have told them to go make their own groups if they do not like it.

I honestly think this nerf incoming is not going to affect the bst that are career bst. Yes, it will scare away the bandwagon ones to some degree but a lot of bst have already been in range to dd on mobs etc anyway (those that actually main the job, etc), so I do not really see it as going to be a big deal. It does not seem like they are doing anything to dmg it does or anything like that to really change it all that much except the range. We will see.

[bazookatooth]

Delve does have the pi for T3, etc but honestly I have not seen that much of a increase in delve shouts for it. Delve is super easy to low man, and so is unity.

You can do all T1 in Escha RuAun at least with duoing with mules. I know people who done it. T2 can be done with under 6, as well as T3. There is a youtube video of T3 being done with 5 and a tank trust. I know all of that is not hard, and I totally agree people should set up their own groups if they want to do something.

Anyway this whole thing started when I was talking about people complaining about the shouts to me, which happens a lot but I have told them to go make their own groups if they do not like it.

I honestly think this nerf incoming is not going to affect the bst that are career bst. Yes, it will scare away the bandwagon ones to some degree but a lot of bst have already been in range to dd on mobs etc anyway (those that actually main the job, etc), so I do not really see it as going to be a big deal. It does not seem like they are doing anything to dmg it does or anything like that to really change it all that much except the range. We will see.


Here's the thing. Any melee job subbing nin can put out just as much damage as a bst pet and survive for a little while if the NM turns their way. having high HP to absorb those BIG moves is the only advantage to pets. When you put the master in range, they are even more susceptible to getting killed than most jobs in that range due to their having no native defensive abilities and having to use level 75 gear for their pets. At that point, they not only do less damage, but are easier to kill. That's not to say that you can't have the master up near the monster, it's just that there is almost always going to be another job that could do a lot better.

[kylani]

Of course geo gets invited to almost all shouts cause it is a buffer job that is used for any setup including bst. Bst setup needs geo and cor buffs so they will always ask for geo, cor, tank, and a healer. Those are given in almost any setup except cor which is normally replaced for brd depending on the fight. Everyone in here knows that without the buffs bst does not perform as well, so it is kinda funny bst players are complaining about geo, cor, tanks, and healers being needed when they need them just as much as anyone else in the harder fights.

Idris geo is the most powerful job in the game right now, and even without the idris it is pretty powerful. I have seen many people say geo should be nerfed but then it is the ones that utilize the powerfulness of geo to help their groups succeed.

If you're referring to me, I did not ask for Geo to be nerfed at all. I was referring to your posts listing all the shouts with GEO.

I could care less about any job getting shouts, and I don't want GEO or any job getting nerfed. I feel it's terribly sad for people to ask for nerfs to other jobs because they are too lame to think for themselves and make their own parties.

[Hoshi]

First two quotes from "Anyone unlocked Death yet" thread.





http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/48550-Anyone-unlocked-Death-yet



You say this but then you say on "Anyone unlocked Death yet" thread that no other jobs besides bst are taken to SR, which is exactly what I been saying in this thread about the shouts on Asura, and you and I both know that SR shouts on Asura are always for bst and rarely for anything else like DD. There is rarely a DD shout for SR, and the majority of shouts for Escha RuAun T2/T3 is for bst as well. I really do not think the majority of the server gives a care about VW shouts (especially seeing how long they have to shout to even get people to go), delve, etc. I have seen people shout for hours for that stuff because not many want to do it anymore. Its the relevant content that people want to do like SR and Escha RuAun T2/T3 that get all the bst love, and get people grumpy about it.

Your sarcasm detector appears to be broken.

[Cyleena]

If you're referring to me, I did not ask for Geo to be nerfed at all. I was referring to your posts listing all the shouts with GEO.

I could care less about any job getting shouts, and I don't want GEO or any job getting nerfed. I feel it's terribly sad for people to ask for nerfs to other jobs because they are too lame to think for themselves and make their own parties.

I was not saying that you said it should be nerfed, but if you read forums on here and elsewhere tons of people are complaining about the other jobs including geo and saying they should be nerfed too, and that was what I was referring too.

[Cyleena]

It was sarcasm. Even I missed it at first.


Your sarcasm detector appears to be broken.

It appears I was not the only one to not pick that up right away. Maybe you should get better at it. :P

[Hoshi]

It appears I was not the only one to not pick that up right away. Maybe you should get better at it. :P

Generally speaking three exclamation points indicates that a person is not being serious.

[Cyleena]

Generally speaking three exclamation points indicates that a person is not being serious.

Idk about that because I have seen multiple of those used in the past when people are passionate about what they are trying to get across, and trying to prove a point. I guess it just all depends in how a person translates the tone of what is being said. Everyone looks at things in different perspectives, and uses different tones, punctuation marks, and emoticons to get points across.

[Andro]

Congratulations SE, I finally decided to come back to FFXI and a month and a half later you completely ruin my main. For all those that wanted this: if you have not spent any considerable time playing the job, have gotten good bst gear and actually solo'd your levels: you really don't have a clue. I did on bst and drg, when easy preys gave 10-25 exp was it? Original job: DRG, so have fun whinning about the next job that gets chosen before you crybabies, they did not fix anything. They just broke something else. Most who cried for bst nerf are probably the same type of people that told me DRG was [too weak] back in the day, picking their preferred jobs. I never called for ruining other jobs and fun, I just wanted them to fix mine. Oh well, mmo's still filled with people I guess. I will shed no tears when FFXI is forever dead, just feel for the decent players.

[Olor]

I feel you Andro, I came back because in the first time in 13 years BST were occasionally welcome in some group content. Now we can't even solo effectively. My half as well geared thf is twice as good as my bst now.

[Phuoc]

As people have said already, this doesnt fix any of the "reasons" many people have been making up in hopes of SE nerfing BST (i came back @ may and bst got nerfed 4 times already if i remember right), SE just went extreme on this so the countless ppl QQing everywhere would shut up.

This is more annoying than anything else, having to be 5.5 from the pet farming salvage or dynamis is just tedious lol, for the rest i've been using /nin and its just an in-out of the fight range, instead of lowering the range to say 15" or something they just decided to do this and "make the master join the fight".

Funny enough, all the people that criticize bst either dont have it leveled or claim to have elitist geared bst with 0 JPs earned (like some wishful thinker in another forum claims lol) but when it comes down to balancing stuff, why bst?

When i read everywhere "i saw 2 BST kill the T3 fairies in escha-zitah very quick" or "razor fang does 20-30 dmg!!! and dont post the complete situation just gets me mad.

2 BST capped on JP (currently) with good gear and using their 1h and runwild/spur can do a lot of dmg yea but ONCE AN HOUR, it isnt something you cant spam every mob and it isnt something every bst can do since most (sadly) stop at the 100jp mark.

Also when ppl mention GEO buffs buffing bst pets big time well, geo buffs every single class like cor but what about brd? BRD buffs are a monstrosity from properly geared players (i got a rem brd in my static and her buffs are simple way too OP), did i ever see a bst mention anything about that? nope.

Now lets see (in my opinnion) classes that are way too OP compared to bst:

- Blue mage: Well here comes the sugar job for SE next to samurai, what can i say about blu other than hello mighty guard. Single job that can achieve almost every trait in the game at its maximum level from other classes, can self-skillchain/mb, has enough cures + status debuff/heals + utility stuff to reduce the amount of ppl you would need for any event to the minimum.

Can cap delay by itself without any other support (and i think the only jobs that can do that if im not mistaken are rdm and nin+dnc -maybe-), can cleave mobs faster than any veteran bst, can do any bcnm or content of any kind without much trouble and can be self-sustained for very long periods of time, can literally cover any spot in the game job wise efficiently without sacrificing anything (specially at 1200 JP which basically turns BLU in the single most-OP job in the game).

- Samurai: Well about samurai all i'd say is the day of the update went to a dho gates and did the new mobs with a mb setup + koga sam/brd and the sam was spamming lv3 skillchains like if it was candy, no other job in the game can do this so quick and efficiently (and so strong, 30 secs per mob that has 140k+ hp is ridiculous).

- Nukers: I saw nukers to cover blm-sch-geo-rdm, MB setup is the single best thing you could do to kill stuff fast and with 0 risk, if your group is good means NMs dieing in 2-3 volleys max, 1 minute of work on ANYTHING (and i know this firsthand because sch is 1 of the jobs i use too for this purpose), i still have to see any bst setup kill things faster than a MB setup.

Do i want these jobs nerfed?? nope, why would i want it? i benefit of them all and if XX job/person outperforms me so what?? Now all these people that are happy now with this "bst-nerf", what do you all gain with it?? if you suck at your class, you gonna keep doing it no matter how many nerfbats XX job gets, there are several jobs that need at least their 2h WS adjusted badly and all people can think is "waa waa only want bst for everything", the only thing the range we had pre-patch gave to the master was safety because the master cant melee like most jobs and if you wanna do it, go and build extra sets just for the niche fights you were supposed to melee lol.

Im sad about this patch @ bst because many ppl i know in-game literally quit BST for good but hey, i endured being a BST at the start of this game where i had to EXP in onzozo or ifrit's cauldron for a very long time so this is just an annoyance as i said.

Oh and 1 last note before ending, the argument of "BST is expensive!! we should have some kind of edge" is quite logical (same way i understand shooting jobs), every reward or call beast i press costs me gil while the blu next to me plays with the maximum advantage possible without spending, is it fair? remember bst have been getting nerf after nerf the last 3-4 updates, when is this gonna end?

P.S.: There's too many raincloud players here!!

[Gwydion]

I want to say that SE increased range for SMN JAs from 15 yalms to 20 yalms.

Can you do the same for amount for BST? from 20 Yalms to 15 yalms?

(7 yalms is ridiculous).

[Inx]

Having to constantly maintain such a short distance from the pet in order to use any command is just plain annoying.

Its not fun to play.

Which is actually worse than a nerf to be honest. It feels like an act of sabotage and needs reversing.

[kylani]

Having to constantly maintain such a short distance from the pet in order to use any command is just plain annoying.

Its not fun to play.

Which is actually worse than a nerf to be honest. It feels like an act of sabotage and needs reversing.

I agree it feels like a knife in the gut.

I heard people mocking bst last night, and have seen others cheering that BST is useless now. I don't understand it. All jobs should be fun. No one should take pleasure from the pain of others like this. I always thought FFXI was a step above other MMOs because it required teamwork to do so much, and people formed a bond as they pulled together.

I'm sad for my bst, but sadder in general at how this game has become. There are other MMOs, but there will never be another one that was as good as this one used to be.

[Fatty]

Just wanted to post to agree with the people here. This is not a proper nerf. It simply makes it very irritating to play the job. It's not fun when you're constantly limited by an extremely short range and Ready silently stops working when you switch to the other side of the mob. That is bad.

Job balancing should be done objectively and equally. It shouldn't be done because some people get loud and others get silent. I don't think SE would have made such a drastic change were it not for people complaining. (Like the beginning of this very thread)

That's a problem, because whoever is loudest will get whatever they want. And that will never be fair.

[Singforu]

It's not that hard of a concept to understand. SE wants you to stand next to your BST when you go to kill stuff. So do it. If you don't want to play BST that way... then don't play BST.

[bazookatooth]

It's not that hard of a concept to understand. SE wants you to stand next to your BST when you go to kill stuff. So do it. If you don't want to play BST that way... then don't play BST.

I'd prefer the third option where I don't have to choose between not playing it, or not enjoying it. That's terrible game design and you should feel bad for endorsing it.

[Singforu]

I'd prefer the third option where I don't have to choose between not playing it, or not enjoying it. That's terrible game design and you should feel bad for endorsing it.

It's not terrible game design. You just have a personal problem and you should feel bad for not getting over it.

[Andro]

It's not that hard of a concept to understand. SE wants you to stand next to your BST when you go to kill stuff. So do it. If you don't want to play BST that way... then don't play BST.

SE wanted to please a few ppl that thought BST was overpowered is all, actually a properly geared BST will not stand up to a mob too much better than a BRD, so go stand right next to every mob, every fight and see how it goes ^^

A properly geared BST is for pet, not player, and it shouldn't be about making the job unenjoyable, undesirable or untenable for players and force them to find a way to deal with it ~ if they wanted to scale it back then scale it back, not completely ruin and change it so drastically it is broken. If you don't play the job, you just don't know what they did. They completely kill our fun for the job, they utterly ruin our fantasy of it and you say don't play BST? Should I play what you find enjoyable or me? What are we paying for then? What are we playing for then? If they nerfed BRD so drastically I would empathize, not criticize. I find that sad.

[Singforu]

SE wanted to please a few ppl that thought BST was overpowered is all, actually a properly geared BST will not stand up to a mob too much better than a BRD, so go stand right next to every mob, every fight and see how it goes ^^

A properly geared BST is for pet, not player, and it shouldn't be about making the job unenjoyable, undesirable or untenable for players and force them to find a way to deal with it ~ if they wanted to scale it back then scale it back, not completely ruin and change it so drastically it is broken. If you don't play the job, you just don't know what they did. They completely kill our fun for the job, they utterly ruin our fantasy of it and you say don't play BST? Should I play what you find enjoyable or me? What are we paying for then? What are we playing for then? If they nerfed BRD so drastically I would empathize, not criticize. I find that sad.


I find it sad that you don't catch the clue that you have to evolve with the way game changes. BST is supposed to fight alongside its pet. If you don't find that enjoyable, then you are playing the wrong job. The job is not broken, you people with your mentality are what is broken. BST can stand right next to the pet and melee, you just want to play the job killing very high level stuff without the aid of a WHM. That is not the intent of the job.

[Andro]

I find it sad that you don't catch the clue that you have to evolve with the way game changes. BST is supposed to fight alongside its pet. If you don't find that enjoyable, then you are playing the wrong job. The job is not broken, you people with your mentality are what is broken. BST can stand right next to the pet and melee, you just want to play the job killing very high level stuff without the aid of a WHM. That is not the intent of the job.

That's funny, here I thought I did it for years.... Oh, wait... I did. No invites. No party. Solo. It was pretty much forced exile and now they want to change it? We are in end game, you don't flip the script on something after so many years to Finally suite your vision, you let it play. You really have no clue do you? After 12 years they want to change it up? No, I have enjoyed and played that job for years, now they did a 180. Not the same job and I hate it. As well as most others who play the job. If you don't play the job, where is your argument? We pay to play it, you are just a side liner acting like a troll.

[Arthos]

I find it sad that you don't catch the clue that you have to evolve with the way game changes. BST is supposed to fight alongside its pet. If you don't find that enjoyable, then you are playing the wrong job. The job is not broken, you people with your mentality are what is broken. BST can stand right next to the pet and melee, you just want to play the job killing very high level stuff without the aid of a WHM. That is not the intent of the job.

What makes you thinking that? I see no traits which would prove that. A SMN can melee too and also skillchain with pet, but it will never be a melee class either. It's on option on lower content, not ment to be played on high level content.

[kylani]

That's funny, here I thought I did it for years.... Oh, wait... I did. No invites. No party. Solo. It was pretty much forced exile and now they want to change it? We are in end game, you don't flip the script on something after so many years to Finally suite your vision, you let it play. You really have no clue do you? After 12 years they want to change it up? No, I have enjoyed and played that job for years, now they did a 180. Not the same job and I hate it. As well as most others who play the job. If you don't play the job, where is your argument? We pay to play it, you are just a side liner acting like a troll.

He is just trolling. He obviously has no clue about BST, but just wants to be a jerk. I'm using the ignore button.

[Inx]

I find it sad that you don't catch the clue that you have to evolve with the way game changes. BST is supposed to fight alongside its pet. If you don't find that enjoyable, then you are playing the wrong job. The job is not broken, you people with your mentality are what is broken. BST can stand right next to the pet and melee, you just want to play the job killing very high level stuff without the aid of a WHM. That is not the intent of the job.

Let me explain this simply to you, and hopefully any devs reading this:

Under this new system, the pet is like a ball-and-chain, anchoring you to a small radius outside of which you lose half your abilities.

This is not fun to play. Its just a chore.

Particularly as the master does not have absolute control over the pet, which will follow a moving target (such as when the backline draws enmity) of its own accord, forcing you to follow it around like YOU ARE THE PET. Add in conditions such as bind/knockback and it just becomes more bother than its worth.

The issue now is less "can I do this on BST", more "do I want to subject myself to the annoyance when virtually any other job can accomplish the same function with less hassle."

[Xilk]

100% wrong. I have top pimped jobs and we do clear theese things but we are just very annoyed how poor players (yes i know they suck until they got bst) suddenly clear top content with ease. Beastmaster is overpowered atm. that is 100% certain.


So other player being able to clear content makes you not like the game? you only like a game where you have top stuff and other players don't? sounds l ike a personal problem, not a game design problem.

[Xilk]

It's not that hard of a concept to understand. SE wants you to stand next to your BST when you go to kill stuff. So do it. If you don't want to play BST that way... then don't play BST.

Its not that hard to understand, players who have loved the job for years don't like the sudden change and don't want SE to keep it that way. if SE is listening to players, they should listen to advocates of the job, not players who for some twisted psychological reasons want to hate on it.

[Malthar]

Shift damage and defense to the master. Give us MaB +100 so we can Cloudsplitter all the things.

[Karuberu]

Let me explain this simply to you, and hopefully any devs reading this:

Under this new system, the pet is like a ball-and-chain, anchoring you to a small radius outside of which you lose half your abilities.

This is not fun to play. Its just a chore.

Particularly as the master does not have absolute control over the pet, which will follow a moving target (such as when the backline draws enmity) of its own accord, forcing you to follow it around like YOU ARE THE PET. Add in conditions such as bind/knockback and it just becomes more bother than its worth.

The issue now is less "can I do this on BST", more "do I want to subject myself to the annoyance when virtually any other job can accomplish the same function with less hassle."

I couldn't have put it better myself. I feel like I have more control over my wyvern as DRG than I do with my pet as BST. This should not be the case.

The fact that you can't even position yourself behind the monster and still heal your pet is broken. (Yes, sure, you can do it if you very carefully position your pet, but that really shouldn't be necessary and, more importantly, it's tedious and not fun.)

And to any non-BSTs who think this was a great change and we're just complaining that we were nerfed: I personally don't care one bit if they nerf the heck out of BST. Pet damage? Nerf it. Ready recast/TP requirement? Sure. Go right ahead. Heck, I'd even be fine with going back to using Sic for jug pets if that's what they wanted to do. But this change is like removing shadows from NINs because "it's not how we want the job to be played anymore" - it greatly changes how the job can be played and just turns your stomach if you loved playing the job as it was. It's a great way to lose loyal players.

[bazookatooth]

TLDR; The game already has Dragoon. We don't need another job that does the exact same thing.

[Inx]

The most sensible compromise would be to make ready damage relative to master proximity, either by applying an atk/m.atk penalty according to range, or more likely an acc/m.acc penalty as that would also affect enfeebling ready moves.

The range limitation on reward needs relaxing, and the ones on RW/Spur need abolishing altogether as they are just pointlessly annoying.

I suspect SE may consider this when they see the activity heuristics come the end of October. There's been a noticeable drop in activity already on my server and I suspect its going to get a lot worse once this month's campaigns end.

Applying a change like this after the Job Point system encourages specialization on a particular job is really sticking in a lot of folk's craws. Not to mention the September patch has added a lot of high difficulty content with largely unexceptional rewards.

[Phuoc]

As many pointed out, being chained to our pet is a fun-sinker thing because every person that cried about BST was about the damage we can dish out and that didnt change 1 bit so i think more than people thinking "people needs some small nerf" it comes down to
"how can i be outparsed by a BST!!! NERF NERF NERF", this is total bs tbh.

And things like these are very detrimental for square-enix, me as a player wont recommend any of my friends, communities etc., a game where you could play XX class for 12 years and suddenly getting a nerf and making it non-fun to play, i really hope SE thinks twice about this because FF11 is on the downroad now and ppl that quit because of this BS wont go to 14 to try their luck lol, i wouldnt.

And to give you an example how far how the range nerf works, ill give you examples for another jobs:

Imagine:

- Ninja without utsusemi
- Blue mage without the 100/1200 JP gift
- Black mage without fast cast
- White mage without -cure casting time

And so on, i could keep going but i think this gives an idea how a fun-killer these kind of nerfs can be, the job is still playable of course (i do it daily) but having to chase the pet when multiple enemies attack it and there's casters making the pet go back and forth is just annoying.

Nerfing pet moves potency on debuffs and spur were already big hits for BST but guess the ppl that cried out loud didnt stop til something absurd like this happened.

Hope this is reconsidered.

P.S.: And please skip hating comments, i pay to have fun with the jobs i choose and not the jobs ppl think should be standard (sam rng ranged setup bla bla), when you go to a restaurant what do u choose? what you want and not what the guy on the next table tells you so this is the same.

[Faithful]

I rarely post on any ffxi forums but here goes my opinion. Beast Master was the only reason I've played this game for over a decade. Every since I heard the news about the Beast Master changes this last update I haven't even bothered downloading the update. I have absolutely no desire to play and quit frankly feel betrayed by SE. After all these years they ruined my reason to play right at the end. It makes zero sense. You can't play the job this way and I'm not even going to try.

[kylani]

I rarely post on any ffxi forums but here goes my opinion. Beast Master was the only reason I've played this game for over a decade. Every since I heard the news about the Beast Master changes this last update I haven't even bothered downloading the update. I have absolutely no desire to play and quit frankly feel betrayed by SE. After all these years they ruined my reason to play right at the end. It makes zero sense. You can't play the job this way and I'm not even going to try.

/comfort...

My sub ends tomorrow. Each day, I've checked out the forums hoping for some word from SE that they realize they made a huge mistake and would fix it. I love this game. I have six 99 jobs and various ones spread between 50 and 90. Doesn't mean much in this day and age, but I enjoy leveling to 99 so I don't leech. I have 7 crafting mules because I love crafting. BST has never been welcome in end game, and I've been fine with playing other jobs, and adapted to the BST changes over the years.

So I logged in to check out the changes, then tried to focus on other things. Prior to this, I had been duoing blue with my son some, and helping out a friend who just came back to the game anyway (like an idiot I encouraged him with how many GREAT changes have been made to be more casual friendly, and he now enjoys playing again...).

But this change is so bad and unreal, I can't get past the feelings this change gives me. I can't decide if SE really doesn't understand what they did or if they intentionally wanted to kill the job. I'm not sure which answer I'd prefer either. I'm disappointed at being so close to the end of updates with a game that I've loved this long and leaving now, but I feel betrayed too. I hate SE every time I log on now, and every time I hear people cheering at the pain of BSTs.

I bought the collector's edition of 14 and stuck with that horrible original version as long as I could. I played ARR as well and always figured when I had completely exhausted FFXI, then I'd probably go back to try it again. I know I would have tried whatever new mobile platform SE put FFXI on. Now I will never look at another SE game, period because this is such a betrayal.

[Chrianna]

I agree 100% this nerf is so bad it makes me want to quit as well - I've played bst as my favorite job since the day I started several years ago (well as soon as I could anyway) - this reduction in range is so bad I can be standing next to the mob and although pet is attacking (from a different side) I'm out of range to use pet command! What is wrong with 1/2 measures when making these changes instead of something so drastic?

[dasva]

I rarely post on any ffxi forums but here goes my opinion. Beast Master was the only reason I've played this game for over a decade. Every since I heard the news about the Beast Master changes this last update I haven't even bothered downloading the update. I have absolutely no desire to play and quit frankly feel betrayed by SE. After all these years they ruined my reason to play right at the end. It makes zero sense. You can't play the job this way and I'm not even going to try.

Several members of my ls haven't logged on since the update including our only aymur :( . Some others are considering quitting. And for the ones that are still here we've all predictably switched to other forms of ranged dmg like mages or pup/smn and the support for those

[Xilk]

I was fighting Warblade Beak today, getting Handler's earrings.

fun fight... except, I could rarely use ready moves. I had to keep running around... now, you may think thats normal... except. Pet was Zhivago.
zhivago was Melee'ing the NM and so was I.

I was directly BETWEEN the NM and my pet, both of us Melee, and I was too far from pet to use Ready moves. I had to back AWAY from the NM in order to get close enough to use a Ready move.
Its ridiculous that with even a medium sized NM, I am too far away from pet, when I am melee'ing and DIRECTLY between my pet and the NM. This is not like I'm adjacent even. I am right BETWEEN.

It makes the game feel really BUGGY.

[Allestra]

I dont understand the mentality of a company that wants people to pay for a soon to be "ending" game (no new /major content more then likely) yet...do everything in their power to remove fun and enjoyment lol

It is so backwards, it makes no sense. If bst was sooooooo OP (it wasnt though) then boost the other jobs somehow to match..never EVER nerf a job a couple months before content ends Oo .....wow. Blind loyalty is a thing of the past, please dont count on it nowadays.

Nothing in this game should even be group based anymore. There is not enough people SE! Having a group should make things a lot easier but not a necessity in a game that lets face it...is ENDING. It will pretty much be replay only status, thats it.

Trusts are OK..but not even close to where they should be.

ffxi holds some of the very very best memories for me, not because of content but because of the very rare decent person I have met in game. Those memories wont hold ppls subscriptions ...but idk making 99% content achievable and enjoyable for any single job certainly would help.

Bst needs to be reverted 100%. Was a huge mistake on their part, unless their goal is to lose more and more of those limited number of players we still do have.
Just my opinion I know, but........lets see

[bazookatooth]

The funny part is that you are actually penalized for bringing more people by giving the NM a higher HP pool and having to share drops with more people.

[dasva]

The funny part is that you are actually penalized for bringing more people by giving the NM a higher HP pool and having to share drops with more people.

Yeah I don't really understand why they don't increase drop pools. Maybe nothing as crazy as another roll per person like it is for crystals but idk another slot at least per 3 people maybe?

[Marada]

I'm a PUP and horribly geared at the moment. I've been laughed out of parties for not being able to perform as well as other jobs and they've all told me if I want to play a real pet job, to go either BST or SMN. I stay with PUP though because I like it and it meshes well with me. Still even though I'm jealous of how easy, yet expensive, BSTs can have it sometimes I don't think this recent nerf was fair to BSTs. I think a 5 to 10 yalm range is more than fair for Ready! commands. Also if the game wants to boast the "Peak of Experience gained" I would say add a job trait then that extends that range as you go up in levels. It would give the feel of you growing with your pets so that you can use the command from different ranges as you get up in levels. But if I can deploy my pet from within the Spell casting range and have them go after a mob, Bst should at least need half that distance to use the Ready Command.

[Jile]

It's a shame so many paying customers, who play BST are leaving the game over this mistaken decision on SE's part. The nerf needs undone, asap.

[zax]

It's a shame so many paying customers, who play BST are leaving the game over this mistaken decision on SE's part. The nerf needs undone, asap.

Yes please.... Don't need a job cause other people can't figure out the basics of any job

[Gwydion]

It seems SE has locked the other thread and perhaps because the thread was a little abrasive or negative towards SE.

I want to calmly and collectively state some issues with the 7-yalm range and I hope SE replies:

The 7-yalm distance is still a usability issue from the perspective of BST-players.

The proposed fix only makes the 7-yalm distance visible by a cursor, using <stnpc>. SE has also preserved <me> with /pet commands to make sure our macros still work.

Using <stnpc>, we are forced to physically look at our pets and make them visible on screen. This is a shallow fix for the problem mentioned previously: Pets within 7-yalms, but not visible on screen will occasionally not execute their ready moves! This still result in "out of range"!

All this "fix" does is artificially notify us that we're out of the 7-yalm range to perform /pet commands and force us to look at our pets on screen. These are not fixes for the side effects introduced by forcing a 7-yalm range.

My opinion is that BST and SMN should be swapped from previous levels to say: 16 yalms for BST and 22 yalms for SMN. (SMN was updated to 22 with this 'fix').

I hope this explains why the proposed fix is a terrible solution, to the problems introduced with a 7-yalm /pet command range.

I hope you find this feedback constructive, as all we really want is to enjoy Beastmaster as so many of us have, for the past 12-13 years. :(

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Nyarlko]

I agree with what Gydion said. The current range for the majority of BST pet commands makes it much more difficult to utilize the job effectively than it should be. It seems rather absurd to me that if my pet is on the opposite side of the same monster I'm fighting, then it can be entirely out of range of any of my abilities. At the bare minimum, please raise the range to 12yalms.. That should be enough distance to stand behind my pet's target and still be able to interact with it for the vast majority of non-boss targets I would think.

I understand that SE wants us to be fighting alongside our pets, but simply looking at what's available to the job tells me that there is nothing for ME to do except: Auto-attack > Weapon Skill. :-/ If you want to force a particular playstyle, please give us some reason/benefit to doing so. As it stands currently, I can not come up with a single positive to meleeing as BST that is not outweighed by the negatives incurred by doing so. There are many ways that I can think of offhand that might tip the scale at least closer to parity, such as converting our attacks/TP into healing/damage for the pet, or some form of combat bonus from skillchaining with our pets, or even simple self-buffs on short-ish timers to give us something to do while auto-attacking, but sadly, I rather doubt that SE is going to want to bother adding any actually new job abilities or traits at this point in the game's lifetime.

I will ask that I at least be able to play the job effectively when done according to SE's stated playstyle.

[Ketaru]

As a returning player, I never thought I would see the day where people were calling for BST to be nerfed. But here it is, the situation is reversed where BST is highly desirable while jobs like WAR and SAM, to quote others, have "aged poorly." I would be more incensed to argue that this is just job favoritism all over again and that it is not good for the game...

...but for 3/4s of this game's life, BST was routinely ignored and rejected from group play by the community. Even if I agree to the sentiment that it did not really fit in with traditional endgame, it did not deserve the disparagement it got back in the day (seriously, being told by Nyzul pickups that they need "real DDs"?). Since I just returned, I'm working on one job at a time, so BST is just going to have to wait. But I'm not inclined to join the crowds talking about how unfair this situation is. Because "lolBST" will forever be burned into my core.

[Gwydion]

As a returning player, I never thought I would see the day where people were calling for BST to be nerfed. But here it is, the situation is reversed where BST is highly desirable while jobs like WAR and SAM, to quote others, have "aged poorly." I would be more incensed to argue that this is just job favoritism all over again and that it is not good for the game...

...but for 3/4s of this game's life, BST was routinely ignored and rejected from group play by the community. Even if I agree to the sentiment that it did not really fit in with traditional endgame, it did not deserve the disparagement it got back in the day (seriously, being told by Nyzul pickups that they need "real DDs"?). Since I just returned, I'm working on one job at a time, so BST is just going to have to wait. But I'm not inclined to join the crowds talking about how unfair this situation is. Because "lolBST" will forever be burned into my core.

Indeed Ketaru. Beastmaster is powerful and popular today, which is a far-cry from the original Beastmaster introduced in 2003. (It was very common for Beastmaster to be perceived as a 'solo job' or a 'waste of party slot' in many group activities). Today, however, you'll find that Beastmaster's are forced to stay within 7 yalms of their pet in order to execute ready moves. You'll find that Pet abilities execute randomly, as your pet must be visible on-screen and within 7-yalms. You'll have to use <stnpc> to be certain, but that is poor indicator for pet distance. (Also the sizes of monsters and pets makes getting within 7-yalms incredibly difficult.

Today, we hope that SE considers a more holistic and permanent solution to this problem.

[dasva]

So as far as I can tell ready is still horribly broken? Like I just tested out standing between the target and my pet... not other side between the 2 ie I was closer to my pet than it was to the mob which was around 5.8' and ready moves still wouldn't work.... so yeah that was fun. Tell me again SE how this update was about getting us to the front line because my "I believe" button is broken

[Vae]

You've been playing long enough to know that nothing they do has a legit reason. The only reason is "too many people used it" It's only a matter of time before another magic nerf too.

[Jile]

Your correct Dasva. BST JA's are so random and broken that I avoid loading it. SE has told us several times that they think everything is going great and they have no interest in adjusting anything so even though JA's are random and very very frustrating, they don't plan to make it work again.

[Ulth]

You've been playing long enough to know that nothing they do has a legit reason. The only reason is "too many people used it" It's only a matter of time before another magic nerf too.

I bet they do something like every 2 mnd will give 1 magic defense giving enemy's much higher magic defenses, but it also has the same effect on players making magic aoes less dangerous and bringing back melee, then the cycle repeats. melee>rng>pet>magic>melee>rng>pet>magic...

[Jile]

Can SE Dev's please - sincerely please - look at the random nature that this new limited-range JA nerf functions? Please?

When we're having to run around and 'hope' our JA's will work and it's so profoundly random - its maddening!

An adjustment needs to be made to allow us to be within 15 yalms of our pet, regardless of if the pet can "see" us or not, the JA's work.

I am no longer asking that they be restored to their original distance but right now the lack of consistent functionality is infuriating.

Dev's please go play BST, see that we have not been complaining without reason and fix the mistake, please.

[Galing]

I just came back to the game after a few months off and I am immediately leaving again. This bst nerf suuuuuuuuuucks!!!

[Jile]

It's a shame SE does not quite realize how profoundly they ruined the joy that it was to play BST.

It's a shame that you returned to a ruined job - I maintain my hope that SE will repair the damage - but for now it's just that, a hope.

[dasva]

Or how ridiculous it is to after the game has more or less ended tell us the way we've been playing since the job was released was wrong

[Galing]

I think the part that makes me mad is the excuse people are using to way they did this nerf. I was told it was for afk killing. If its afk killing then a distance nerf does nothing to change that. Also what is the point of being a bst if I have to fight on top of my pet lol?

I leveled bst back year and years ago. It was not an easy thing to level and you were all alone and pretty bored sometimes but you knew by leveling this job (which most people did not level back then) that you would have a slightly OP job as a reward. Same thing with Rangers back 11-12 years ago before their first nerf. They were easy as hell to level but you had to drop a LOT of gil on ammo and most people did not want to do that. After you had it leveled though it was a bit OP and you leveled fast. That imo is a reward for leveling jobs that not so many other people level.

Like Dasva said this is ridiculous to nerf something after the game is over lol, I have never been able to read SE and figure out what goes through their heads.

[elqplau]

Hello? When did bst become a soloist job?? I've been playing since peeps where being referred to alakazahm not wiki or bwiki my best has been in my my since about a month after I flagged it....that was maybe 10 years now and has not nor will see light of day past lvl 9 I stopped playing best because charm kept leaving me 2 MoBs to kill I spent as much time coming back from the HP and rezoning as I did getting dead.....I have solod ALL my jobs since rdm was nurfed so long ago and I'm here to tell u I'd rather have a mushy whom solo than bst neday

[Kensagaku]

Uh... BST has -always- been a soloist job up until recently. Also you really shouldn't speak for the job if it never made it past level 9. Just a thought, go back to the RDM thread where you claim you can't hit anything while RDM is at one of its peaks when it comes to melee right now, thanks to all the good melee gear available to it now.

Back on topic, I know I'm beating a dead horse here but I'm in full agreement with the fact that the nerf is ridiculous. The range should have been radial based on the mob (still forcing BST into melee but allowing it to not stand in front of every attack your pet should be tanking), or have a wider range to allow us to be on the sides/back to avoid the conal AoEs. They've done a pretty good job giving us hybrid gear (look at the new Arktoi, it's really good for hybrid play, or acc as a whole), and their direction does seem to be moving us to the front line, but they need to either go about it all the way by fixing the JA ranges to allow us to move into our more ideal position in frontline combat, or they need to revert everything back to where it was.

[Ketaru]

Uh... BST has -always- been a soloist job up until recently. Also you really shouldn't speak for the job if it never made it past level 9. Just a thought, go back to the RDM thread where you claim you can't hit anything while RDM is at one of its peaks when it comes to melee right now, thanks to all the good melee gear available to it now.

I'm inclined to think elqplau is a genuine troll. Surely, nobody's typing could be so horrendous if it weren't meant to be satirical. Over there, she is saying RDM is no good at meleeing and is using Blurred sword as evidence. It just can't be serious.

If any job is a terrible meleer, it's BST. It has no innate abilities that allow it to generate TP Faster. It's only direct damage buffing ability is Killer Instinct, which is very situational (honestly, I would love to see the day it gets more general application, but that would require melee to be brought back into the game...and for BST to be meleeing right beside them). It gains no form of Subtle Blow, to mitigate the TP it is giving to the target for its pitiful damage. One of its best weapons right now is not an iLevel weapon at all, but an Abyssea-era drop.

If their goal was always for BSTs to melee alongside their pets, shouldn't the BST's melee be AT LEAST as good as a melee RDMs?

[dasva]

So now they boost physical dmg for players to more resemble jug pet pdif allowing them to do even more dmg now but without all the failings of having to use a pet and master. Joy

[Gwydion]

If I'm being forced to play Beastmaster this way, can you give us something to cope? Better job abilities, better TP growth, higher shield skill? ...This is horrible. We have fencer but no shield skill and no decent shields. We have Poor pet ability range, and no defensive/offensive capability at all (for the player).

[kylani]

If I'm being forced to play Beastmaster this way, can you give us something to cope? Better job abilities, better TP growth, higher shield skill? ...This is horrible. We have fencer but no shield skill and no decent shields. We have Poor pet ability range, and no defensive/offensive capability at all (for the player).

I came back to see how things were because I read some boards that said BST is ok, and I wanted to do the last missions. It sure didn't feel ok. I was fighting with my pet, and all I saw was not in range messages. It's just not fun for me chasing my pet around trying to get skills to go off. I wish I hadn't given SE any more money, but I've un-subbed again now. Hopefully, I've learned my lesson and can let it go.

[VahnEris]

I came back to see how things were because I read some boards that said BST is ok, and I wanted to do the last missions. It sure didn't feel ok. I was fighting with my pet, and all I saw was not in range messages. It's just not fun for me chasing my pet around trying to get skills to go off. I wish I hadn't given SE any more money, but I've un-subbed again now. Hopefully, I've learned my lesson and can let it go.

Meanwhile, my linkshell killed all three of the Reisenjima T3s using just Beastmasters as our DDs tonight, several times.

[Angemon]

So does everyone else that plays BST seriously. This didn't do anything to BSTs except cause a minor inconvience. It wasn't the best method to kill the bandwagon, they should have capped the ready timer to a point where you wouldn't require the Abyssea axe. That way it lowers BST dps and allows them to use a real axe in the offhand for whatever they want.

[kylani]

Meanwhile, my linkshell killed all three of the Reisenjima T3s using just Beastmasters as our DDs tonight, several times.

That doesn't mean that job abilities not firing isn't broken. A group of bsts throwing pets at mobs has always been strong. I just wanted to finish the missions up. It's sad to see the job work like this. I'm not doing something tricky or special. I'm just expecting my abilities to work. It's like being a WHM and not knowing if cure will work or not. You can still play it, but you can't play it like you should.

[kylani]

So does everyone else that plays BST seriously. This didn't do anything to BSTs except cause a minor inconvience. It wasn't the best method to kill the bandwagon, they should have capped the ready timer to a point where you wouldn't require the Abyssea axe. That way it lowers BST dps and allows them to use a real axe in the offhand for whatever they want.

I'd have preferred that to making the abilities unreliable.

[BlackHalo714]

Meanwhile, my linkshell killed all three of the Reisenjima T3s using just Beastmasters as our DDs tonight, several times.

Oh wow cool story...... Yea I kill NM's with my beast too that isn't the point. The point is the range is broken from firing off macros/job abilities to chasing your pet when it gets looked at wrong by some other mob than the one you are fighting.

[Ulth]

Oh wow cool story...... Yea I kill NM's with my beast too that isn't the point. The point is the range is broken from firing off macros/job abilities to chasing your pet when it gets looked at wrong by some other mob than the one you are fighting.

Don't be hating because you are not replicating.

[BlackHalo714]

Don't be hating because you are not replicating.

Lol wth are you talking about? Replicating? Carry on with your rhymes. So your claiming I'm hating because someone can kill Nm's just like everyone else? Or was I supposed to be impressed because it was some T3's? Who cares. Point is range is still broken.

[dasva]

I mean sure you can use bsts as DDs still... you can also use any other melee too. All it shows is you can square peg most things if you try hard enough. Heck pretty sure I could kill those T3s with just pups for DDs

The whole point of bst was not having to stand in range for physical dmg for the niches where that was really useful similar to other pet jobs or rng

[Ulth]

Lol wth are you talking about? Replicating? Carry on with your rhymes. So your claiming I'm hating because someone can kill Nm's just like everyone else? Or was I supposed to be impressed because it was some T3's? Who cares. Point is range is still broken.

Yes, thank you for summing up my point, and then proving it by continuing to hate on people.

[BlackHalo714]

Yes, thank you for summing up my point, and then proving it by continuing to hate on people.

Meh don't care man. Keep on replicating because you think your 476 posts before this your right on everything. The post I commented on was nothing to do with you anyway. She made a comment about beast killing T3's... I made a comment about that wasn't the point beast can kill just about anything. It was about range being broken. But I know you want to be the superhero behind the keyboard and chime in your two cents. Hate that I guess.

[Ulth]

Meh don't care man. Keep on replicating because you think your 476 posts before this your right on everything. The post I commented on was nothing to do with you anyway. She made a comment about beast killing T3's... I made a comment about that wasn't the point beast can kill just about anything. It was about range being broken. But I know you want to be the superhero behind the keyboard and chime in your two cents. Hate that I guess.

I didn't realize that my two cents is ruining this perfectly nice echo chamber you guys have going. Here let me fix it "Wah! they ruined my favorite job forever!!! I'm going to unsubscribe and then resubscribe so I can unsubscribe again!" Is that better?

And I can't help that I'm right so often:

I don't know why everyone is focusing on bst's damage. SE really isn't even trying to change that. They are just making it less safe than before. Which I honestly think is a poor idea. It's not going to fix the problems that anyone has on either side of the argument and just upset things further. People on the pro bst side are going to be annoyed by having to run in and out all the time, or when they get hit by an aoe, and people against bst are still going to be annoyed as bst will still be able to clear the same content. To me the range of pet commands is a lose lose adjustment. Bst still aren't going to run in and hit things with their axes. If SE wants that to happen they will have to make it the more appealing option over 10 second ready timers.
Here we are after the adjustment. Bst are still doing t3s, all the while complaining about it.

[BlackHalo714]

I didn't realize that my two cents is ruining this perfectly nice echo chamber you guys have going. Here let me fix it "Wah! they ruined my favorite job forever!!! I'm going to unsubscribe and then resubscribe so I can unsubscribe again!" Is that better?

And I can't help that I'm right so often:

Here we are after the adjustment. Bst are still doing t3s, all the while complaining about it.

Slow golf clap....

[Ulth]

Slow golf clap....

Takes a bow

[Ataraxia]

Meanwhile, my linkshell killed all three of the Reisenjima T3s using just Beastmasters as our DDs tonight, several times.


Reisenjima T3 are really tough NM. I'm going to assume you had a Geo, Cor, or Rdm and whm for healing to help out because their no way a BST can clear T3 in Reisenjima without the use of run wild and unleash. One of the 3 Nm are super tough without a Geo, Cor, or Rdm depending on party set up. Now i wonder if the BST can actually kill it without the use or run wild and unleash? hmmm... I doubt it. :/

[Ataraxia]

I mean sure you can use bsts as DDs still... you can also use any other melee too. All it shows is you can square peg most things if you try hard enough. Heck pretty sure I could kill those T3s with just pups for DDs

The whole point of bst was not having to stand in range for physical dmg for the niches where that was really useful similar to other pet jobs or rng

That's the way Taru Pup is the way to go now. =)

[dasva]

That's the way Taru Pup is the way to go now. =)

Of course. Galka pup is just silly

[Vae]

And you all wonder why square doesn't care the slightest what goes on in the NA forums.

[Jile]

SE please fix Beastmaster. The JA range is random, inconsistent, annoying and insulting to your loyal paying BST community. This is not a damage or danger issue because people cant beat nm's and blame xyz job because of their gimpness, its a broken job ability-issue and it needs addressed instead of constantly ignored.

[dasva]

And you all wonder why square doesn't care the slightest what goes on in the NA forums.

Yeah I probably wouldn't want to sift thru all the trolling, insults and job hate to see people actually talking about the problems either

[Ulth]

SE please fix Beastmaster. The JA range is random, inconsistent, annoying and insulting to your loyal paying BST community. This is not a damage or danger issue because people cant beat nm's and blame xyz job because of their gimpness, its a broken job ability-issue and it needs addressed instead of constantly ignored.

It's not random. Have you never tried to pull something with a ranged attack right after you finish moving? It will say you moved and interrupted your aim. Why does it do this? because while it looks like you stopped on your local machine, on the server you are still moving to the place you are at. The same thing is causing your "random" out of range messages for commands. Are they doing something about this? Yeah they are dropping console support. PS2s are old and can't send or receive as fast as a modern computer can. Hopefully this means less latency lag and faster loading zones and inventory.

[Jile]

It's not random. Have you never tried to pull something with a ranged attack right after you finish moving? It will say you moved and interrupted your aim. Why does it do this? because while it looks like you stopped on your local machine, on the server you are still moving to the place you are at. The same thing is causing your "random" out of range messages for commands. Are they doing something about this? Yeah they are dropping console support. PS2s are old and can't send or receive as fast as a modern computer can. Hopefully this means less latency lag and faster loading zones and inventory.

Just because they're dropping PS2 support, which only means they can scale-down their dev team doing basic updates on xi, does not mean they're going to make any other adjustments on how their servers function. As for lag time, all users on all servers combined is what a single server used to have on it - it doesn't get much lower demand resource wise than it is.. lol, granted losing ps2/xbox users will lower server utilization even more but it's not going to be something we're going to notice on the user end.

The job abilities function at very random locations during a fight - while standing beside your pet, there are times JA's will work and other's they will not, this is a glitchy and poorly redesigned problem that SE has refused to address.

When we have to stand on our pet's head and still not be sure if our JA's are going to fire - it's time to admit they screwed up and make changes.

Part of this variable is the movement of the mob we're fighting, some is our pet shifting location during a fight and then there is the elephant in the closet, the diameter of the mob we're fighting also shortens our leash making the range JA's function a constant moving variable, not consistent by any means, it's highly variable.

Others have said similar before and I'm still hoping they will give BST a JA similar to avatar's favor, letting me have 20-yalms from my pet as the window, lowering my pet's DMG output as the cost of that favor.... so I can hit a mob and have my JA's work again.

Ask any BST main, this problem is so bad, so horrible that many BST main's have changed to PUP or retired. Are we high on the DMG end of things? Sure, as long as you don't look at SCH or BLM's destroying our DMG, sure... lol.. but I digress, this JA problem needs addressed ASAP.

SE community Dev, (since Grekumah retired I guess I'm only asking Camate), please tell me something is coming?

[dasva]

It's not random. Have you never tried to pull something with a ranged attack right after you finish moving? It will say you moved and interrupted your aim. Why does it do this? because while it looks like you stopped on your local machine, on the server you are still moving to the place you are at. The same thing is causing your "random" out of range messages for commands. Are they doing something about this? Yeah they are dropping console support. PS2s are old and can't send or receive as fast as a modern computer can. Hopefully this means less latency lag and faster loading zones and inventory.

Yeah the problem is you are using variable size pets which give variable sized ranges and that also move around on their own sometimes. Combine with the distance being way too short and stuff does mess up quite a bit and not always predictably. Seriously I can stand between my pet and the mob it's attacking and it not go off. Other times it might

[Ulth]

Yeah the problem is you are using variable size pets which give variable sized ranges and that also move around on their own sometimes. Combine with the distance being way too short and stuff does mess up quite a bit and not always predictably. Seriously I can stand between my pet and the mob it's attacking and it not go off. Other times it might

Are you standing within 7 yalms of your pet because that's all that matters. Seriously I've seen plenty of people using bst since the update and they have no problem getting their readys to work. Did the new goblin unity NM and used a bst with the rabbit to kill all the mines. They didn't have this problem. If they did we would have gotten blown up, but we didn't.

[dasva]

Are you standing within 7 yalms of your pet because that's all that matters. Seriously I've seen plenty of people using bst since the update and they have no problem getting their readys to work. Did the new goblin unity NM and used a bst with the rabbit to kill all the mines. They didn't have this problem. If they did we would have gotten blown up, but we didn't.

My pet was in melee range so of course I was. Some pets it goes down to a little over 5 because stupid thing judges weirdly based on pet sizes. I've also talked to many bst who say they have plenty of problems...

[Lonnan]

Are you standing within 7 yalms of your pet because that's all that matters. Seriously I've seen plenty of people using bst since the update and they have no problem getting their readys to work. Did the new goblin unity NM and used a bst with the rabbit to kill all the mines. They didn't have this problem. If they did we would have gotten blown up, but we didn't.

Sounds like you do not play BST. You might want to try it out some (fighting a wide range of different sized monsters) before making a statement like that. Distance is not all that matters. The size of the monste, the size of the pet, and the masters positioning also factor in the equation in ways which are both enigmatic and inconsistent. With large monsters, that 7 yalm range is much closer to 4 or 5. The seven yalm range also fails quite often if you have the monster in between you and your pet (ie., monster facing pet and master attacking from behind) even though master and pet are 7 yalms apart.

And please stop with "we used a bst for x" posts and using them to suggest that the job doesn't have serious problems. BST pets are still capable of strong attacks (when the ready moves actually go off) and several players are so dedicated to the job that they still play it and learn to adapt to the extremely buggy and inaccurate issues with ja range. Just because BST can do things like DD T3 NMs or AoE kill mines on a UNM, does not mean that issues with ja range do not exist. Stop being obtuse, play the job yourself and see or shut up and listen to the people who do.

[Mithlas]

Sounds like you do not play BST. You might want to try it out some (fighting a wide range of different sized monsters) before making a statement like that. Distance is not all that matters. The size of the monste, the size of the pet, and the masters positioning also factor in the equation in ways which are both enigmatic and inconsistent. With large monsters, that 7 yalm range is much closer to 4 or 5. The seven yalm range also fails quite often if you have the monster in between you and your pet (ie., monster facing pet and master attacking from behind) even though master and pet are 7 yalms apart.

And please stop with "we used a bst for x" posts and using them to suggest that the job doesn't have serious problems. BST pets are still capable of strong attacks (when the ready moves actually go off) and several players are so dedicated to the job that they still play it and learn to adapt to the extremely buggy and inaccurate issues with ja range. Just because BST can do things like DD T3 NMs or AoE kill mines on a UNM, does not mean that issues with ja range do not exist. Stop being obtuse, play the job yourself and see or shut up and listen to the people who do.

This guy speaks truth.
Although I love BST and will continue to work with it, it does get aggravating when I run in to be "out of range" when I'm almost right next to the large monster.

[Ulth]

Sounds like you do not play BST. You might want to try it out some (fighting a wide range of different sized monsters) before making a statement like that. Distance is not all that matters. The size of the monste, the size of the pet, and the masters positioning also factor in the equation in ways which are both enigmatic and inconsistent. With large monsters, that 7 yalm range is much closer to 4 or 5. The seven yalm range also fails quite often if you have the monster in between you and your pet (ie., monster facing pet and master attacking from behind) even though master and pet are 7 yalms apart.

And please stop with "we used a bst for x" posts and using them to suggest that the job doesn't have serious problems. BST pets are still capable of strong attacks (when the ready moves actually go off) and several players are so dedicated to the job that they still play it and learn to adapt to the extremely buggy and inaccurate issues with ja range. Just because BST can do things like DD T3 NMs or AoE kill mines on a UNM, does not mean that issues with ja range do not exist. Stop being obtuse, play the job yourself and see or shut up and listen to the people who do.

Seems to me the general consensus of bsts outside the OF is that the range nerf is at most a inconvenience and are glad they got off with such a minor nerf. Some actually see it as an improvement as it killed off the bandwagon by adding some difficulty to the job. Frankly I think it's insane how you can't seem to figure out how to stand close to your pet. It's like those people in informercials flailing around while they fail at simple tasks. If your upset about having to stand close to your pet just say that. Don't lie about it being impossible to get ready moves to work consistently.

[dasva]

Seems to me the general consensus of bsts outside the OF is that the range nerf is at most a inconvenience and are glad they got off with such a minor nerf. Some actually see it as an improvement as it killed off the bandwagon by adding some difficulty to the job. Frankly I think it's insane how you can't seem to figure out how to stand close to your pet. It's like those people in informercials flailing around while they fail at simple tasks. If your upset about having to stand close to your pet just say that. Don't lie about it being impossible to get ready moves to work consistently.

Seems to me you are completely just making things up. Most bsts I talk to are the opposite. I'm in a pet ls that just wont take the job anymore unless they have nothing else or we know it they can safely avoid AoEs. No matter who is on whatever job guess which job is most often eating dirt? Yep that's right bst everytime. Most have switched to pup or smn or a good pet support job.

And then making stuff up about it not being inconsistent when it clearly is. Can't count the times it just doesn't go off. I probably die because a ready move refuses to go off after I pull a bunch of mobs while I'm right there meleeing the one I'm trying to use moves on about once every 2-3 cp sessions and I only do them for around 15-30 minute sessions and then about every other session I die because I get animation locked by mobs attack me and my pet goes that ever so tiny distance away from me that doesn't allow me to use ready and I literally just can't get closer before I die. Seriously when is the last time you played the job? Because you are showing some major misconceptions on how things work

But whatever dude keep on trolling and making stuff up and random insults. No one is buying them especially since you demonstrated you don't even know how the distance works in the first place

[Ulth]

Seems to me you are completely just making things up. Most bsts I talk to are the opposite. I'm in a pet ls that just wont take the job anymore unless they have nothing else or we know it they can safely avoid AoEs. No matter who is on whatever job guess which job is most often eating dirt? Yep that's right bst everytime. Most have switched to pup or smn or a good pet support job.

And then making stuff up about it not being inconsistent when it clearly is. Can't count the times it just doesn't go off. I probably die because a ready move refuses to go off after I pull a bunch of mobs while I'm right there meleeing the one I'm trying to use moves on about once every 2-3 cp sessions and I only do them for around 15-30 minute sessions and then about every other session I die because I get animation locked by mobs attack me and my pet goes that ever so tiny distance away from me that doesn't allow me to use ready and I literally just can't get closer before I die. Seriously when is the last time you played the job? Because you are showing some major misconceptions on how things work

But whatever dude keep on trolling and making stuff up and random insults. No one is buying them especially since you demonstrated you don't even know how the distance works in the first place

Look how that story changes. It went from "My pet was in melee range so of course I was." to "I get animation locked by mobs attack me and my pet goes that ever so tiny distance away from me that doesn't allow me to use ready and I literally just can't get closer before I die."

[Vae]

While I was reading the latest post, I literally just came up with the square enix way to fix bst.

A brand new item, that you have to wear (remember the whistle you got from the beginning?) Allows commands to be used from a distance. The item will be disgustingly annoying to obtain ie: 10,000 sun water jugs

Every 10,000 jugs you turn in allows commands to be used from 1 yalm further away up to a new maximum of maybe 13.

Please, look forward to it.

[Ulth]

While I was reading the latest post, I literally just came up with the square enix way to fix bst.

A brand new item, that you have to wear (remember the whistle you got from the beginning?) Allows commands to be used from a distance. The item will be disgustingly annoying to obtain ie: 10,000 sun water jugs

Every 10,000 jugs you turn in allows commands to be used from 1 yalm further away up to a new maximum of maybe 13.

Please, look forward to it.

I know you are joking but I hope that becomes a thing. As an alchemist I would make so much money.

[dasva]

Look how that story changes. It went from "My pet was in melee range so of course I was." to "I get animation locked by mobs attack me and my pet goes that ever so tiny distance away from me that doesn't allow me to use ready and I literally just can't get closer before I die."

That's not a story changing it's different situations. Multiple examples of failures which you had actually read what you are trying to argue with it should be apparent. Nice try at trying to deflect from not knowing how any of this works though but you are going to need to up your troll game

[Ulth]

That's not a story changing it's different situations. Multiple examples of failures which you had actually read what you are trying to argue with it should be apparent. Nice try at trying to deflect from not knowing how any of this works though but you are going to need to up your troll game

Yep, I have no idea how this works, standing close to your pet makes readys work while not standing close doesn't? Boy I'm really racking my brain trying to get it around such a complicated concept. It's not like there are videos of bst's pulling off ready move flawlessly by running in and out over and over to solo very difficult battlefields. Those certainly do not exist.

[dasva]

While I was reading the latest post, I literally just came up with the square enix way to fix bst.

A brand new item, that you have to wear (remember the whistle you got from the beginning?) Allows commands to be used from a distance. The item will be disgustingly annoying to obtain ie: 10,000 sun water jugs

Every 10,000 jugs you turn in allows commands to be used from 1 yalm further away up to a new maximum of maybe 13.

Please, look forward to it.

Needs more barance. I recommend adding provenance/legion synth mats to the recipes

[dasva]

Yep, I have no idea how this works, standing close to your pet makes readys work while not standing close doesn't? Boy I'm really racking my brain trying to get it around such a complicated concept. It's not like there aren't videos of bst's pulling off ready move flawlessly by running in and out over and over to solo very difficult battlefields. Those certainly do not exist.
Clearly you don't since you still spout nonsense that as long as you are in 7 it works every time which anyone that plays on bst can tell you is laughable false.

But sure keep saying that just because some people can sometimes still kill some things that it somehow totally invalidates it not working as you say. Because we all know that something working a lot of the time means it works all the time right?

[Ulth]

Clearly you don't since you still spout nonsense that as long as you are in 7 it works every time which anyone that plays on bst can tell you is laughable false. But sure keep saying that just because some people can sometimes still kill some things that it somehow totally invalidates it not working as you say.

Unhuh, I know that not all bsts are geared enough to do that. That guy was top notch. That wasn't the point. The point was that even though he was constantly running around he was getting readys to go off. They aren't broken they are working as SE intended them to work, at close range.

[dasva]

Well it was fun feeding while it lasted but it's wearing thin so here ya go. Close range between pet and it's target it is fighting. You can continue to say it isn't so but clearly not always the case. Should be noted that with tiger I'm fairly certain that would've been close enough because of the way it changes based on different sizes


https://bucket.bluegartr.com/7a22e008cc377bf76ed37665e110f58b.png

[Vae]

That's some pretty damning evidence, lol. I'm kinda curious how the hell they're fighting from that far apart, or how far apart it actually is... I know you can't show that in the screen shot, but the distances were?

Pet to player?
pet to target?