Please hold back on Trial of the Magians

[Delsus]

From what I have seen Trial of the Magians are now starting to get a bit out of hand, its ok and a decent, albeit alot of repitition, for gear upgrades, but it started to to become a joke when job emotes used trials, and now i see that the dev team want the new adventuring fellow level caps will be broken through trials.

We have gone through the game with out fellows in a decent quest line with a decent storyline, quests would be a better way to break the level cap for adventuring fellows.

After this I hate to think how far SE will go with trials, will all new content only be available with trials to get xxx of y item?

This is where i saw the statement about fellow lvl cap being broken with trials http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/751-NPC-Fellow-Please-Raise-Level-Cap-And-Expand-Areas-Of-Use?p=65322#post65322

[Niklz]

it's a moogle conspiracy. they're monopolizing Vanadiel, forcing everyone to go through them for every decision an adventurer may make.

i agree though.

[RAIST]

Yeah.. seems kind of like the lazy way to do it programatically. Why created more dialogue and CS elements when you can just write a script telling you to collect x number of objects and bring it back...

How about adding some in-depth content for these things and not just a short list of text and bonking me on the head and I'm done. While some quest lines were kind of cheezy, I still appreciated the effort put into the cutscenes and such.

[Megatron]

you mean you still read all the in game talk? most of us stopped doing that 5 years or so ago. just spam the buttons until you get to kill things. it was always anoying when someone asked for help to do something and you had to wait 20 mins for them to read the blah blah blah blah blah blah. save me ... your princess is in another castle.... blah blah now kill that for something youll throw away. on a lighter note. SE does teh trials tehy way they do to save space and time. insted of havieng 300 npcs to search outot do a trial. its all rolled up into 1 npc. it helps for those pesky space issues and limitations we hear so much about.

but im with you. enough withte trials aboutthe time i get caught up they add more then i gotot start all over. and i sware some day im goingto snap and kill that moogle if he hits me with 1 more fing star

[Arcon]

I can't agree more, I'm really tired of all the monotony. More unique quests, while harder to implement, especially for an old game such as this, I think it would help lots of people to stay on the game, it was what people kept playing for years. Also, not everyone is skipping cutscenes, most people I know still enjoy the story, I for one pretty much play for that. And I really hope the next expansion has more story elements, a proper mission line would be great. Maybe with some better rewards, to motivate people more. CoP and RotZ were the best examples, placing the relevant content at the end of their storyline. ToAU didn't motivate many people to do missions, because there was no real reward at the end, and it showed. When Odin and Alexander were released, people were struggling to finish the ToAU storyline, just to get those avatars. CoP and RotZ on the other hand, mostly everyone had completed already, at least all the end game players. WotG had the same problem as ToAU, despite an amazing story, but almost all the WotG content was accessible without doing the story.

Making whole new zones accessible after finishing the story, that's what I loved about CoP and RotZ. First time stepping into sea/sky, after months of struggling with missions, I rarely felt better rewarded for my efforts than at those moments, then experiencing a whole new game and system in those zones, that was amazing. I would love to see something like that with the next expansion again, maybe even with more content. But please don't give us yet another version of Signet/Sanction/Sigil.


and i sware some day im goingto snap and kill that moogle if he hits me with 1 more fing star

+2.

[Neika]

Am I the only one who giggles when I get bonked on the head by the giant star? Maybe all the stars have left me brain-damaged....

[Sparthos]

Hold back on the best system SE introduced to the game ever?

While you have a point that the game has been sorely absent on lore, the magian trials have nothing to do with that. The age of plucking a sword from the jaws of the almighty Fafnir, patron dragon of botting and human manipulation is over. I have no problem with a moogle asking me to procure items if the event that said items come from is fun.

The elemental trials are designed for solo/casual play which is fine. The multi-hitter paths which used to involve VNMs/super-grind is currently dead, the WoE trials is currently broken (scheduled for a fix), the Empyrean path is quite popular and the STP/DA/TP Bonus paths are grinds with varying degrees of use.

The main change needed is more events. TOTM can start the quests but without new/remixed events, things seem like a fetchquest.

[Jamesruglia]

you mean you still read all the in game talk?
Yes, yes I do. A game that puts effort into dialogue will have dialogue worth reading; A mindless "grind/loot" game without dialogue isn't worth playing for free, much less paying for.

I'm not a fan of the magian trials at all myself, but it's not for the mechanical aspects; rather I'm just sick of "MOOGLEMOOGLEMOGLYKUPOKUPOMOGLEESAREBEHINDEVERYTHINGMOOGLE!" flavor they've adopted.

[Jackastheripper]

I have to agree. The NPC storyline was, and still is, one of my favorite side stories/questlines in the game. Seems like a cop out to just stick them into a magian trial and say done. While adding more magian trials for for weapons and armor seems good, adding more for things like limit breaks, job emotes, and npcs is kind of a let down. Those things, in the past, have always had stories behind them which made them feel like accomplishments just for getting them done. Magian Trials on the other hand are just a grind. I guess it is better than no upgrades at all....

[Niklz]

you mean you still read all the in game talk? most of us stopped doing that 5 years or so ago.

Really? Idk, I still read everything, actually I know a lot of people that's been playing a very long time that really enjoy the plots.

[Delsus]

Hold back on the best system SE introduced to the game ever?

While you have a point that the game has been sorely absent on lore, the magian trials have nothing to do with that. The age of plucking a sword from the jaws of the almighty Fafnir, patron dragon of botting and human manipulation is over. I have no problem with a moogle asking me to procure items if the event that said items come from is fun.

The elemental trials are designed for solo/casual play which is fine. The multi-hitter paths which used to involve VNMs/super-grind is currently dead, the WoE trials is currently broken (scheduled for a fix), the Empyrean path is quite popular and the STP/DA/TP Bonus paths are grinds with varying degrees of use.

The main change needed is more events. TOTM can start the quests but without new/remixed events, things seem like a fetchquest.

I aren't saying do away with trials, I am saying that they should add proper quests for things like NPC lvl cap, seeing that SE wants to use trials for that, and they used em for job emotes, whats to say that all content thats released now is magian trials, example lvl 99 obtain xxx items, access to new areas (if in the unlikly event they release some more) kill xxx amount of a specific hugely over camped mob.

Im just saying we dont need trials for everything, upgrading gear is one thing, but when it comes to things that have been linked to quests since the start of the game are all of a sudden repetetive trials, just to get KO'd by a huge star which magically has differant effects.

[Mara]

I don't so much have a problem with dragging myself through Magian Trial hell to get good weapons, and armor, but I agree, having the quest to raise my NPC's cap be a magian trial is a little ridiculous. Magian Trials is a great way to customize weapons for exactly what you want to do, but using it for everything else instead of adding actual game content has gone far past lazy now. But you knw what, i can live with magian trials if I have to. The thing that REALLY annoys me is that the upgrade of older gear is going to be through synergy. SE brought in Synergy, everyone was underwhelmed, and they keep trying to force us to get into it by adding new things that no one cares about. When are they going to realize it was a retarded idea to begin with and stop forcing it to be relevant?

[Meyi]

^^; Am I honestly the only person who squeals in delight with magian trials?

They're one of my favorite things to do in the game. I'm excitedly looking forward to the level 99 weapon final upgrades.

Personally, I wouldn't mind magian trials for NPC items, such as equipment or more powerful weapons. However, I agree with the OP that increasing the NPC's level should be done with quests, not with magians. Adventuring fellows were meant to have a strong background to them, and magian trials are incredibly dry.

If there were magian trials for making my fellow have really neat gear (with actual stats), more powerful weapons, or new spells and abilities, then sure! But to increase levels? No thank you.

[wish12oz]

Hold back on the best system SE introduced to the game ever?

While you have a point that the game has been sorely absent on lore, the magian trials have nothing to do with that. The age of plucking a sword from the jaws of the almighty Fafnir, patron dragon of botting and human manipulation is over. I have no problem with a moogle asking me to procure items if the event that said items come from is fun.


THIS

Magian trials are amazing and we need more, not less.

[Rambus]

Yeah.. seems kind of like the lazy way to do it programatically. Why created more dialogue and CS elements when you can just write a script telling you to collect x number of objects and bring it back...

How about adding some in-depth content for these things and not just a short list of text and bonking me on the head and I'm done. While some quest lines were kind of cheezy, I still appreciated the effort put into the cutscenes and such.

Yeah I have to agree SE is going overboard with dependency on moogle trials.

I want more involved story, yes i agree.

I am going to like this topic to show SE yeah this is an issue, i advice anyone agreeing to like the topic post

[Mirage]

If they're going to use more and more trials, I wouldn't mind if they were a bit less monotonous. have several different kinds of objectives on one item, for example. Like instead of 500 WSes on one type of enemy, how about 200 WSes on that NM, one or two NM kills from the same enemy type, and then maybe a few dropped items.

Now that's just one example, it doesn't have to be exactly like that. The main point I'm trying to make is that there should be a bit more variation for each trial. I find it mind-numbingly boring to kill the same enemy in the same area for days on end.

[Alhanelem]

THIS

Magian trials are amazing and we need more, not less.
Amazing is a bit of an overstatement, but I do like them for giving you clear, concise goals, and tracking your progress every step of the way. It's not random- that's the best part.

[Mirage]

Amazing is a bit of an overstatement, but I do like them for giving you clear, concise goals, and tracking your progress every step of the way. It's not random- that's the best part.

Yeah, predictability is the good thing about them. Lack of variation is the bad thing about them.

[Elexia]

Magian would be fine if they weren't ridiculously time consuming or had ridiculous (Chloris) requirements, and the proof is in the pudding.

As in, hello Scholar storm spells not having an effect despite it literally creating the weather for you.

[Dijana]

I have mixed opinions on magian. Its good that there are great weapons and armor we can get on our own without needing the co operation of a whole ls that can only work on one or two at a time..but it is ridiculously monotonous and boring. I am fine with it for weapons and armor, but the emotes, and the npc cap? I agree its going too far.

Its great the new ffxi team has more interaction, listens to what the playerbase wants and all that, but it feels like things have gotten incredibly lazy, and are going the way of just about every other mmo out there. I stuck with ffxi as long as I did because it was different to other mmos. It had plot, and lore, and interesting quests. Now its being taken over by 'kill this monster x amount of times' 'collect x of this kind of item'. Add to the fact the game really only takes place in abyssea now which is just 9 zones, going back to other mmos like WoW are starting to seem very tempting these days..

[Zaknafein]

Yes I agree. TOTM has been a good addition, but too much of anything causes diminishing returns. As stated by others here the game is in dire need of new places to explore, and new content. Proceeding on the path the game is currently following leads to burn out. Revamping Dynamis is cool, but for veterans it's the same thing different view point. Making Einherjar relevant again, and Sea/limbus is needed.

I might sound like a broken record, but the PvP angle would seem to solve things from both the perspective of players & developers. The work that would go into making one centralized PvP Coliseum type area would pay off tenfold. The same area would provide hour upon hour of enjoyment to veterans who are standing around cities bored cause we have burned thru abyssea. New Players would enjoy this setting as much as well. It offers a chance to see things about various jobs/gear selection, and strategies while providing a social experience and healthy competition. Good all the way around from all perspectives.

[Zumi]

Personally I hate those collect 50 or 75 of an NM drop trails. Because it is just so boring. Epic quests and stuff though are probably beyond SE's budget for 11 now. Which is why they probably give us TotM.

[Lexin]

I say just get rid of ToM.

[Orenwald]

Off topic: I love your siggy Spartan.

On Topic: Elemental magian trials should have the scholar spells count dammit. Having trials where you can only do them during the day of the week because the weather doesn't exist for the mob type. /ragepanda.

The Empyrean trials are fun. In order to do them in a timely manner, you need friends and a good strategy. /waytogopanda

[Elexia]

The fact they purposefully made Storm spells not work is likely to make ToM a grind and that would severely speed things up, just like allowing Chloris to be popped with only 2 items/ki...and no I'm not bitter.

[Camate]

We brought up your concerns about the recent abundance of Trial of the Magians-related quests to the development team. They definitely understand your concerns, but stated that due to the fact such a large amount of content needs to be added in quick succession it became necessary to re-use the system (imagine creating 500+ quests to take players through the various paths of the Magian upgrade process!). So while the Trial of the Magians system will continue to be utilized for that type of content going forward, they did assure us that story driven content will not use that system.

[Mrbeansman]

Yes I agree. TOTM has been a good addition, but too much of anything causes diminishing returns. As stated by others here the game is in dire need of new places to explore, and new content. Proceeding on the path the game is currently following leads to burn out. Revamping Dynamis is cool, but for veterans it's the same thing different view point. Making Einherjar relevant again, and Sea/limbus is needed.

I might sound like a broken record, but the PvP angle would seem to solve things from both the perspective of players & developers. The work that would go into making one centralized PvP Coliseum type area would pay off tenfold. The same area would provide hour upon hour of enjoyment to veterans who are standing around cities bored cause we have burned thru abyssea. New Players would enjoy this setting as much as well. It offers a chance to see things about various jobs/gear selection, and strategies while providing a social experience and healthy competition. Good all the way around from all perspectives.

For you and people who continue to post this stupid idea: If you want relevant PVP go play WOW.

[Karbuncle]

I personally despise the idea of using PVP as a means to progress in anyway. It feel should remain a "Side Activity". I think some Ballista-Specific Armor should come from Ballista. Maybe after so many wins you could purchase Fashion Armor (Like Some form of the Ballista crowns back in the Ballista Championship thing).

Also, PVP Is never "Healthy" Competition. Any PVP Anywhere is going to be like getting on XBOX and playing Halo. "HAH YOU SUX FGT" and "STUPID NOOB LULULULUL" "LOL I PWNED YOU"... For all intents and purposes, unless your playing with friends, PVP is never as civil as people want it to be.

I think it was plainly stated a while back that SE didn't really even want to add PVP at first, It "degraded" The idea of Adventurers in team work. I think they tacked on the "Training" Aspect of it simply to make it viable while not making it World of LoLmy60PLDownthatNoobFarmingcraft.

[Mrbeansman]

I personally despise the idea of using PVP as a means to progress in anyway. It feel should remain a "Side Activity". I think some Ballista-Specific Armor should come from Ballista. Maybe after so many wins you could purchase Fashion Armor (Like Some form of the Ballista crowns back in the Ballista Championship thing).

Also, PVP Is never "Healthy" Competition. Any PVP Anywhere is going to be like getting on XBOX and playing Halo. "HAH YOU SUX FGT" and "STUPID NOOB LULULULUL" "LOL I PWNED YOU"... For all intents and purposes, unless your playing with friends, PVP is never as civil as people want it to be.

I think it was plainly stated a while back that SE didn't really even want to add PVP at first, It "degraded" The idea of Adventurers in team work. I think they tacked on the "Training" Aspect of it simply to make it viable while not making it World of LoLmy60PLDownthatNoobFarmingcraft.

Not to mention that the current PVP is completely unbalanced by the dominance of 3 or 4 jobs.

[Arcon]

For you and people who continue to post this stupid idea: If you want relevant PVP go play WOW.

This "stupid idea" was added into this game as well. And that's a pointless argument anyway.

However, I don't see how PvP would solve anything in this case. How would that replace the Trial of the Magians system? Unless you wanna make rewards be based on points scored in there, but that would be just as much grinding. Also, not many people are interested in PvP on here, so pursuing this would probably not be worth it at all.

[Karbuncle]

This "stupid idea" was added into this game as well. And that's a pointless argument anyway.

However, I don't see how PvP would solve anything in this case. How would that replace the Trial of the Magians system? Unless you wanna make rewards be based on points scored in there, but that would be just as much grinding. Also, not many people are interested in PvP on here, so pursuing this would probably not be worth it at all.

Its frankly because i believe PVP was really a half-hearted attempt. SE was reluctant to add it from the Begining. I can't say exactly where i think i remember reading it, But I'm certain at some point i read that SE didn't really want PVP in the game, It denoted the idea of Adventurers working together. Eventually it was added for whatever reason though, Probably high enough demand.

But as it stands, Its a Dominated system. Only ~4 jobs are in good at it, and its completely unbalanced, there really is no strategy in PVP, especially if you make it large-scale. It'll just be Run > hit something > You die or they die > Rinse Repeat.

I do agree we need to step foot outside Abyssea some day (Truthfully i want Outside and inside Content for level 99, Each with its own unique aspects/rewards), But I don't think a PVP based system is a good idea.

It probably works well for WoW, But i don't think it would work well for FFXI without a massive overhaul of how PVP Works in this game, Which is something I Severely doubt SE will ever do.

now, to only help my case a little, I personally love doing PVP for fun with friends sometimes. PLD/BLU is a funny Brick-Wall. Can get 999 DEF with Turtle gear, and On top of Phalanx its Hilariously broken in PVP, at least in my eyes. I'd still get owned by a Mage, But its fun the job is useful for a little bit. Also Sanguine Blade is boss in PVP. Maybe not as Boss as Empyrean WS's are lol... but fun.

[CrystalWeapon]

Try not to derail into that debate, there already is a massive thread on pvp. I agree that there should be more actual content storywise than multiple fetch quests for everything, but I'm expecting it at lv 99. I think the slue of magian trials is because they are working on a mass of changes, and they do not have the time to spend on minor issues.

If I had to guess, I'd say they have enough content to fill 2 if not 3 major updates in the works, and they are brainstorming how to get it all up and running with the limited dev team they currently have.

[Mrbeansman]

We are currently in a transition phase of the game. People need to stop being impatient and learn that new stuff is to come.

[Harukusan]

Whether we like it or not, Magian trials are still going to be used. I'm not going to deny that it was alright at first, but it's gotten too repetitive. It's really showing that the direction this game is heading is just like every other MMORPG out there. "Do this quest: collect x amount of items or kill x amount of enemies for your experience or other reward." Every. Other. Game. Uses. This. System. That's why I don't play other games, I play FFXI for more in-depth content and dialogue. It's just lazy, boring crap. Major emphasis on the BORING part. I can play FREE MMOs for the same thing. Tell me again, why are we still paying to play FFXI? Did we really need constant redevelopment and more stuff added? It's still struggling to maintain a balance that already existed a long time ago, only to keep a minor amount of people happy because they couldn't handle the challenges that were set forth purposefully. My only wish is to go back to 2004/2005 just before they screwed everything up, or possibly have had the capability of running and playing on a private server so I can enjoy the game I learned to love back then. I should have quit the game 5 years ago when my RL friends did... After CoP it's been one downward spiral of a crapshoot.

[Fusionx]

They definitely understand your concerns, but stated that due to the fact such a large amount of content needs to be added in quick succession it became necessary to re-use the system (imagine creating 500+ quests to take players through the various paths of the Magian upgrade process!). So while the Trial of the Magians system will continue to be utilized for that type of content going forward, they did assure us that story driven content will not use that system.

I think everyone understands that Magians is needed for path progression quests (weapons, armor). The issue that people are having is that Magians is being used as a cop out when there are great story telling opportunities. Because of the nature of the reward, job emotes could have been traditional quests that simply give you the completed torque at the end. Now if there are upgrades planned in the future that's different- but it would be nice to know if we are actually going to see upgrades.

Now with the NPC limit breaks it looks like SE is almost intentionally throwing these into the Magian system because for whatever reason, they can't deliver more story based content, which is one of the highlights of FFXI.

Can you say if there will be upgrades to things such as the items obtained through the job emote trials (or any items involved in the new limit break trials?) Or can you tell us if we'll even see new storyline content coming up?

[Delsus]

We brought up your concerns about the recent abundance of Trial of the Magians-related quests to the development team. They definitely understand your concerns, but stated that due to the fact such a large amount of content needs to be added in quick succession it became necessary to re-use the system (imagine creating 500+ quests to take players through the various paths of the Magian upgrade process!). So while the Trial of the Magians system will continue to be utilized for that type of content going forward, they did assure us that story driven content will not use that system.

Thanks for the reply, I do realise that story driven content does take time to do and i do respect that the dev team needs to get the new conent out fast, I just think that it would be better for some things to be released slower if they were origanally designed as story based content.

I dont mind magian trials, however personally I kept leveling my fellow to progress the story (the help she can be while soloing is useful as well)

Just a bit of feedback for the future (i realise that theres nothing that can be done now because the features will already be in testing for iminant release)

[Alhanelem]

I personally despise the idea of using PVP as a means to progress in anyway. It feel should remain a "Side Activity". I think some Ballista-Specific Armor should come from Ballista. Maybe after so many wins you could purchase Fashion Armor (Like Some form of the Ballista crowns back in the Ballista Championship thing). I want to see some minor rewards- either stuff that's only useful in ballista, or stuff that has some kind of niche use that won't overshadow anything obtained elsewhere. Those ballista headgears (the laurel crown and the other one) are the two rarest items in the game, and I actually wonder if any of the people who have those items still play. :p


Also, PVP Is never "Healthy" Competition. Any PVP Anywhere is going to be like getting on XBOX and playing Halo. "HAH YOU SUX FGT" and "STUPID NOOB LULULULUL" "LOL I PWNED YOU"... For all intents and purposes, unless your playing with friends, PVP is never as civil as people want it to be.

I think it was plainly stated a while back that SE didn't really even want to add PVP at first, It "degraded" The idea of Adventurers in team work. I think they tacked on the "Training" Aspect of it simply to make it viable while not making it World of LoLmy60PLDownthatNoobFarmingcraft.This is not true at all. This does not happen in Ballista. FFXI is not halo, and just because some people act immature in some games that are played competitively, does not mean that every game with head to head competition has this problem. Most of the people who play Ballista are quite mature and do not act like idiots like in your example. SE also never said anything like that about PvP- only that they waned to make it a light-spirited event and not something that players would be forced to participate in or forced a game enivronment that suggested a "factions at war" type of thing.

Saying "Any PVP Anywhere" cannot be "healthy" competition is just ignorant.


Not to mention that the current PVP is completely unbalanced by the dominance of 3 or 4 jobs.The balance is not as bad as some people make it out to be. The thing it is balanced around group vs group play, not one vs one. One or two jobs stick out as a little overpowered in a 1v1 setting, but they become more balanced in a team setting.

[Miiyo]

That's space they could be using to add more content. It's an npc giving you a quest to do something. It's been npc's giving you quests to do something the whole game. Of all the things to complain about...

[Raksha]

We brought up your concerns about the recent abundance of Trial of the Magians-related quests to the development team. They definitely understand your concerns, but stated that due to the fact such a large amount of content needs to be added in quick succession it became necessary to re-use the system (imagine creating 500+ quests to take players through the various paths of the Magian upgrade process!). So while the Trial of the Magians system will continue to be utilized for that type of content going forward, they did assure us that story driven content will not use that system.

Items =/= Content.

Also since when has ANYTHING dealing with your adventuring fellow NOT been story driven content?

[Elexia]

Items =/= Content.

Also since when has ANYTHING dealing with your adventuring fellow NOT been story driven content?

Semantics, as Items are content as they're an entity within a work of fiction :D

[Rambus]

We So while the Trial of the Magians system will continue to be utilized for that type of content going forward, they did assure us that story driven content will not use that system.

I don't understand that, it sounds like a bad thing, is that really what is going on or is it because of focus on FFXIV that they cannot add the content properly?

they had a lot of time to make it to 75, why was it stopped at 70 for so long?

[Seriha]

Whether we like it or not, Magian trials are still going to be used. I'm not going to deny that it was alright at first, but it's gotten too repetitive. It's really showing that the direction this game is heading is just like every other MMORPG out there. "Do this quest: collect x amount of items or kill x amount of enemies for your experience or other reward." Every. Other. Game. Uses. This. System. That's why I don't play other games, I play FFXI for more in-depth content and dialogue. It's just lazy, boring crap. Major emphasis on the BORING part. I can play FREE MMOs for the same thing.

And what do you propose as the alternative? You've basically described the MMO genre, its roots slinking back to the days of MU*s and P&P RPGs. Everything one might loathe about the Magian system pretty much existed in the game before that in some form (WS latents, killing mobs with DRK sword to unlock the job, kill an NM, trade an item, etc.).


Tell me again, why are we still paying to play FFXI? Did we really need constant redevelopment and more stuff added? It's still struggling to maintain a balance that already existed a long time ago, only to keep a minor amount of people happy because they couldn't handle the challenges that were set forth purposefully.

Whatever "purpose" the devs had back then doesn't mean it was done right or even well. When I look back at old census data and see a large chunk of people weren't past the Promies or certain ranks/missions in ToAU, I say something is amiss. Ideally, content should be developed so everyone can experience it, not just a select few who oftentimes consider themselves more skilled.


My only wish is to go back to 2004/2005 just before they screwed everything up, or possibly have had the capability of running and playing on a private server so I can enjoy the game I learned to love back then. I should have quit the game 5 years ago when my RL friends did... After CoP it's been one downward spiral of a crapshoot.

Door, butt, etc..

[Zaknafein]

For you and people who continue to post this stupid idea: If you want relevant PVP go play WOW.

My post said nothing about using PvP for gear upgrades. The point being made was ToTM becomes repetitive, and tedious. Revamping older events such as Einherjar, Sea, PvP, etc would give people a way to break up the monotony opposed to Abyssea all day every day. You might have gleaned this from the post if you had even a 3rd graders reading comprehension skills.

As far as the "if you wanna PvP go play WoW" Durr hurr hurr... I've played XI since it was released thank you, and myself & others who would like to have upgrades to PvP have every right to request that. We're not asking people who don't want to PvP to go do it. Chances are most of the crybabies who Baaawww whenever they see the word PvP wouldn't provide much sport anyhow.

[Andylynn]

And what do you propose as the alternative? You've basically described the MMO genre, its roots slinking back to the days of MU*s and P&P RPGs. Everything one might loathe about the Magian system pretty much existed in the game before that in some form (WS latents, killing mobs with DRK sword to unlock the job, kill an NM, trade an item, etc.).



Whatever "purpose" the devs had back then doesn't mean it was done right or even well. When I look back at old census data and see a large chunk of people weren't past the Promies or certain ranks/missions in ToAU, I say something is amiss. Ideally, content should be developed so everyone can experience it, not just a select few who oftentimes consider themselves more skilled.



Door, butt, etc..

You deserve 10 likes for your post. I really hate when vets go off on tangents like 'this game used to be difficult, everything is too easy or monotonous, everything these days sucks.' I really liked the line:


Ideally, content should be developed so everyone can experience it, not just a select few who oftentimes consider themselves more skilled.
It really wasn't a matter of 'skill' back then, just time consumption and luck.


spiral of a crapshoot
Crapshoot you claimed your HNM.
Crapshoot you got your abjuration, or .0xx% drop from said HNM.
Crapshoot you finished (insert expansion) mission depending on decent party or not.
Crapshoot you got decent dyna run or salvage run to find low drop, only to compete with 17 others who wanted it.
FFXI was not hard, it was luck, and time. Stop acting like it was hard, stop acting like it's so horrible. All it's done lately is make it more accesible to the average joe.

[Arcon]

FFXI was not hard, it was luck, and time. Stop acting like it was hard, stop acting like it's so horrible. All it's done lately is make it more accesible to the average joe.

That's not entirely true. While I sort of agree with your sentiment, FFXI definitely was hard. There were things you couldn't kill with less than 12 people, there were things you couldn't really kill at all. Even Dynamis and other events were hard, while it was easier than the average HNM, you still had to proceed with strategy and skill, know what to pull, when/how to sleep, which mobs to kill in what order, sac pull something because it was nearly impossible to beat. Also, death house.

Making it more accessible to the average joe is not all it has done. It has definitely made the game a lot easier, I don't really know anything that's really hard these days (I haven't tried AV since Lv80, I assume it's still somewhat of a challenge). Even most harder Abyssea NMs aren't strategically hard, but rather luck-based hard. Take Shinryu, it's a decently easy fight, up until it starts spamming Meteor. Then what do you do? You wipe and retry, hope it doesn't do that anymore, that's pretty much your only option. There's no strategic defense against this, kiting is not an option because of draw in, survival is nearly impossible, unless you stack massive HP Atmas, for mages too, which makes the rest of the fight nearly impossible. Same goes for the AoE Doom move, Doom screen may help, so may Holy Waters, but that's again luck based. There's nothing based on skill you can do to prevent that. And the same holds for most mobs that are hard within Abyssea (like Pantokrator or Rani).

While this may hold true for some HNMs prior to Abyssea (AV, PW), it was generally not the case, with the right strategy and player cooperation you could take down any NM. And there were lots of NMs that were genuinely hard, and as I said before, same held true for most events. Einherjar for example required very skilled cooperation of 15+ people to be pulled off. Now you can clear most chambers with ten people, Odin maybe even with one skilled party. And that's still more of a challenge than 99% of things within Abyssea, and so are most ground kings and wyrms, even KS99.

And whether that's horrible or not, again, is something that can't be judged objectively, it all depends on how people play. Sure, the average joe is probably happy about this development, but most average joes were happy before too, why else would they have been playing? Because they were getting there, they were slowly getting into the game, with the right linkshell, everyone was able to experience the endgame content, and slowly build their gear and skills. Now this has just been accelerated and they've been pushed to the endgame front.

There's two kinds of people who complain about it, the ones that complain about noobs getting the same stuff they do, which is maybe comprehensible but pointless, and the others that complain about the lack of challenge for themselves, which is not just random whining, but a good point. Because these people aren't necessarily better than the average player, they're just ahead of them. Which means, that soon, the average player will catch up to them and maybe come to the same conclusion. Not all will agree, because not everyone is in it for a challenge and for achievements. Many people are content just playing, building their characters, at whatever pace, and will keep doing so.

That doesn't mean the others are wrong, or just whining idiots, it means that a certain playerbase isn't content with the game anymore. And before people bring pointless arguments like "Then why are you still playing?" there's a very simple answer to that: FFXI was a game that these people could enjoy, and there's nothing saying it can't be that game again. And voicing their opinions is pretty much the only thing these people can do. Sometimes it's really just whining, but often people just like to call people constructively disagreeing with their (or the public) opinion whining, which has happened on here a lot (in this thread too).

Personally I'm discontent with some of the recent changes, but I still enjoy it and I still have a hope that it will turn in the game I can fully agree with. It probably won't do everything I want, but I'm also ok with that, as long as there's still enough aspects to it I can enjoy. I also do believe SE will make it more challenging again, Abyssea is not as popular as many people here like to make it out to be. It used to be, when it was released, not so much lately, I know lots of people quitting again, many of whom came back just because of it in the first place. With most people, even casual players, having completed a lot of things they wanted to, even after only a few months after release, it won't be able to sustain this player base for very long. It's simply an Empyrean Weapon/Armor farming ground, that gears people up for the actual end game content at 99. I just hope most people realize that and wait for the next expansion before they quit over it. Either that or they come back for the next expansion.

Onto topic, Trial of the Magians pertain a lot to this monotony, inherent to the current Abyssea system. It's part of the thing that many people complain about. And while it may be nice hub to deal with upgrade-style quests, it's definitely not an end all be all solution. I'm also disappointed with this decision, especially since fellow quests up until now had a nice, long running storyline, both for level cap quests as well as bonding quests. It's probably too late now, but I hope SE reconsiders this.

[Zaknafein]

bah double post lol

[Zaknafein]

Excellent post sir! You eloquently shine a light on several divisive topics without being judgemental one way or another. The entire post makes great points. My favorite one however is this:


There's two kinds of people who complain about it, the ones that complain about noobs getting the same stuff they do, which is maybe comprehensible but pointless, and the others that complain about the lack of challenge for themselves, which is not just random whining, but a good point. Because these people aren't necessarily better than the average player, they're just ahead of them. Which means, that soon, the average player will catch up to them and maybe come to the same conclusion. Not all will agree, because not everyone is in it for a challenge and for achievements. Many people are content just playing, building their characters, at whatever pace, and will keep doing so.


It explains perfectly that casual players are floating down the same stream, and will find themselves where a lot of veterans are atm. Put nicely...Bored. This new info they've released here looks promising. New fights. New Enemies. Outside Abyssea. I am OK with this interim abyssea content from 76-99 being redundant, if @99 the game truly picks back up again the way it needs to if the playerbase is to be kept stable.

[Urteil]

Its frankly because PVP was really a half-hearted attempt. SE was reluctant to add it from the Begining. I can't say exactly where i remember reading it, But I'm certain at some point i read that SE didn't really want PVP in the game, It denoted the idea of Adventurers working together. Eventually it was added for whatever reason though, Probably high enough demand.

But as it stands, Its a Dominated system. Only ~4 jobs are in good at it, and its completely unbalanced, there really is no strategy in PVP, especially if you make it large-scale. It'll just be Run > hit something > You die or they die > Rinse Repeat.

I do agree we need to step foot outside Abyssea some day (Truthfully i want Outside and inside Content for level 99, Each with its own unique aspects/rewards), But I don't think a PVP based system is a good idea.

It probably works well for WoW, But i don't think it would work well for FFXI without a massive overhaul of how PVP Works in this game, Which is something I Severely doubt SE will ever do.

now, to only help my case a little, I personally love doing PVP for fun with friends sometimes. PLD/BLU is a funny Brick-Wall. Can get 999 DEF with Turtle gear, and On top of Phalanx its Hilariously broken in PVP, at least in my eyes. I'd still get owned by a Mage, But its fun the job is useful for a little bit. Also Sanguine Blade is boss in PVP. Maybe not as Boss as Empyrean WS's are lol... but fun.

You kill people on PLD/BLU. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

Mages overpowered...? There are so many easy and cheap pieces of resistance gear to allow a person to gear for the elemental resistance and debuff of their choice, one can even sub scholar to be nearly IMMUNE to sleep while running a powerful resist silence build.

I don't even know where to begin. . .I'll give it a damn shot though,[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

Dispel > Cocoon, Acid Bolts too.

Sanguine Blade is a pile of *** on any target with shell or magic defense bonus, you aren't using Atonement why? As a paladin, WHY?

Phalanx is like what 32 damage off a swing, oh, Dispel > Phalanx.

Martial jobs can sub scholar, and run mp builds and make use of aspir and drain, "Looking at you Monk and SAM and THF etc. etc. . "

Running? Gravity, and bind, and all the other crowd control spells say hello.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

I don't think Dark Knight qualifies as a mage but I'd be happy to have some civil fights with you and punch some gigantic holes in every statement above.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

And there being no strategy in large scale PvP. Assuming this was true, this means there is an immense amount of strategy at the 1v1 level or more so than the large scale level, which is how any game that is taken 'seriously' operates?

Please, please, please, never step foot into ballista again.

Your eyes are blind.

[Seriha]

And whether that's horrible or not, again, is something that can't be judged objectively, it all depends on how people play. Sure, the average joe is probably happy about this development, but most average joes were happy before too, why else would they have been playing? Because they were getting there, they were slowly getting into the game, with the right linkshell, everyone was able to experience the endgame content, and slowly build their gear and skills. Now this has just been accelerated and they've been pushed to the endgame front.

I'm not sure "happy" would be the right word. Depending on how far you slide the scale back, "blissfully ignorant" may have been more appropriate. Granted, it wasn't hard to hear about how endgame sucked with people botting, stupidly low drop rates, NM rarity, and so on. Simply hearing about it is a bit different than actually doing it, like running Dyna-Sandy for the 40th time for someone else's relic who bails on the shell after finishing.

Anyway, I think some people also need to accept that game knowledge has evolved and information distribution has improved thanks to things like the wiki. Not everyone taps into these resources, as evidence by some... rage posts here and elsewhere, but as I've tried to argue before regarding the uninformed, sometimes they simply don't know where to look, what they're looking for, or even fear ridicule from those who spew some variation of "How could you not know this?!" In part, this is also an issue with the game almost requiring these outside resources due to the lack of info on quests, food, etc..

With the above in mind, new content is then usually met the same old strategies. Sadly, things like insta-death moves, absorb modes, charm(ga), and so on have been SE's response to zerging. I'd also add hate resets to the list of things I'm sick of seeing, but when you get enough people zerging, hate isn't really a concern, anyway. Still, we're all paying the same subscription fee, and focusing on content for a minority is a good way to guarantee your user base shrinks. The (artificial) difficulty of old content no doubt resulted in a number of people quitting out of some form of frustration, and the seemingly higher number of people coming back to the game and enjoying it after recent changes seems, to me, for the better. Personally, I have a hard time justifying anything in an MMO taking more than 3 months to get with a modest play schedule (~15 hours a week). The rest just need to get over their vanity if they're so afraid of the unwashed masses having a bit more potential in being equal, if not better.

[Karbuncle]

/

I'm sorry you feel that wayt. I did not personally Assault or insult anyone in my post. You however have, you stepped the line and immediately resorted to personal attacks.

And i never said i Played PVP professionally, I never claimed to have encyclopedic Knowledge of the Event. Only that i had done it a few times.

And, I only ever did it with friends. You are actually the perfect example of why PVP is unenjoyably, You're angry and insulting over such trivial things, it creates a negative experience.

[xiozen]

This topic is becoming derailed...

[Karbuncle]

This topic is becoming derailed...

I had no intent to take it further. I only wished to Defend myself. He's been reported and His posts will probably be deleted for breaking the Forum rules anyway.

[Zaknafein]

The majority of people who say there is something wrong with everyone wearing the same gear are not saying casuals should be relegated to vastly inferior gear. Abyssea was great. It gave all types of players the chance to have good solid gear choices. What we're saying is there should be a tier out there that is more difficult/time consuming to obtain for those of us willing to put forth the effort.

I think part of this fundamental disagreement are people who are long time fan's of the final fantasy franchise, and people who just have played XI. Epicly long grinds, and working toward the pinnacle of perfection is the hallmark of the franchise. It is what set XI apart from most other MMO's on the market for years. Generally you can tell the two groups apart. Never reading cut scenes is usually a dead give away. I've beaten every FF released b4 XI. I was ecstatic when I heard about a final fantasy MMO coming to NA. When I finally got it home the day of release it surpassed my expectations being the 1st, and only MMO I have every played or been interested in.

What people need to understand is a lot of us who are unhappy with the "easy mode" are not out to target new players, or casuals. I personally love helping new people or casuals achieve something they need, but can not find help with. What saddens, and angers a lot of the veterans is seeing XI veering wildly away not only from it's core values, but those of the franchise of Final Fantasy as a whole.

[Zaknafein]

I have no intent to take it further. I only wished to Defend myself. He's been reported and His posts will probably be deleted for breaking the Forum rules anyway.

For the record no one said anything about "PvP driven Content" it was brought up as a separate option to help relieve the tedious nature of TOTM. Not once was it suggested that PvP should be the new way trials are handled or anything of that nature. No one suggested it should be anything, but a voluntary activity. Just that it needs to be centralized in a major city hub, with some new tweeks.

[Karbuncle]

For the record no one said anything about "PvP driven Content" it was brought up as a separate option to help relieve the tedious nature of TOTM. Not once was it suggested that PvP should be the new way trials are handled or anything of that nature. No one suggested it should be anything, but a voluntary activity. Just that it needs to be centralized in a major city hub, with some new tweeks.

Yah, Looking back i do see what was entirely mentioned. And a PVP "Arena" Wouldn't be terrible idea for just a fun Side-Activity. But I think a Tweak of Ballista/Dioramaw/e/etc would be a good idea as well. SO yah, I actually quite like the concept of a PVP Arena. As long as it wasn't necessary to obtain the best armor, and remained a Fun Side-Activity. They already the "The Arena" in Whitegate that could be turned into that... Unless its used for Pankration i forgot :|

It does not excuse his post however. I did nothing but speak my opinion on one of the current discussions being had, and in turn i was Insulted and Flamed.

[Zaknafein]

No def not defending the over the top response. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That's what this forum is here for.

[Eeek]

The majority of people who say there is something wrong with everyone wearing the same gear are not saying casuals should be relegated to vastly inferior gear. Abyssea was great. It gave all types of players the chance to have good solid gear choices. What we're saying is there should be a tier out there that is more difficult/time consuming to obtain for those of us willing to put forth the effort.

I think part of this fundamental disagreement are people who are long time fan's of the final fantasy franchise, and people who just have played XI. Epicly long grinds, and working toward the pinnacle of perfection is the hallmark of the franchise. It is what set XI apart from most other MMO's on the market for years. Generally you can tell the two groups apart. Never reading cut scenes is usually a dead give away. I've beaten every FF released b4 XI. I was ecstatic when I heard about a final fantasy MMO coming to NA. When I finally got it home the day of release it surpassed my expectations being the 1st, and only MMO I have every played or been interested in.

What people need to understand is a lot of us who are unhappy with the "easy mode" are not out to target new players, or casuals. I personally love helping new people or casuals achieve something they need, but can not find help with. What saddens, and angers a lot of the veterans is seeing XI veering wildly away not only from it's core values, but those of the franchise of Final Fantasy as a whole.

I understand your concerns, and I do think they're valid. There should be some content designed for those with the free time to overcome grueling challenges.

But here's the reality though: games based upon epic grinds can no longer compete in the marketplace. Sure, these kinds of games will satisfy the desires of hardcore MMO players, but that's a niche market at best in Western countries.

Hardcore MMO players are a distinct minority in the overall population of MMO players and potential MMO players. To thrive commercially, new MMOs must appeal to casual MMO players and players who never seriously considered playing an MMO. They are vast in number. This is the lesson learned from WoW and even social-media games like Farmville: millions will play if the game is accessible and rewarding even to those with little available playtime. Niche markets don't make the big profits that most companies covet and chase.

The two most recent FFXI directors have steered FFXI on a fantastic new course that's needed in order to survive and thrive commercially. I've never seen so much interest in FFXI among new and returning players. In the past year or so, the game has improved dramatically, and I do wonder what might have been if these improvements were in place in FFXI's early years.

[Zaknafein]

Mmmmm agreed. The average attention span of today's gamer is on par with an unclipped dog who broke out of the backyard, and is aimlessly wandering the neighborhood. While I understand that this shift in paradigm was necessary to sustain XI's dwindling population I do strongly feel that there has to be a limit somewhere. Or like someone said earlier the casual gamer's will just burn thru the content that formerly took years to complete. They will take say 1 or so to reach the point where veterans are bored at now. Possibly faster considering many of them are not even touching some of the older events because "why would you do that stuff yo??? Af3 is da bomb"

One thing that does amuse me tho. Many people are quick to jump on the casual, and accessibility bandwagon because it works for other wildly popular titles out there. However when PvP is brought into the conversation (even in a clear "this is optional no ganking" form) people freak out like that's the devils work, and scream "Go play WoW Durr Hurr" I suppose the PvP aspect of those other popular titles have nothing to do with the amount of subscribers they have?

[RAIST]

O M G

Urteil, you need to chill before you get a visit from the ban hammer.. Karbuncle was just stating OPINIONS, and never claimed they were facts--just commenting on his/her experience with PVP. The one "fact" touched on was a vague recollection of something read a long time ago about SE being reluctant to get into the PVP arena. Newsflash---I remember reading that same thing. In fact, I think it also showed up in a dev Q&A a while back.

I NEVER did ballista myself, it never held much attraction for me. I have, however done a lot of Brenner with LS and friends just for shits and giggles. And it felt kinda broken along the lines of what Karbuncle experienced, so we quit doing it except for testing our damage limits on gear swaps and testing out our pets and such. Brenner quickly became more a game of "Kill the Bard" then "Capture the Flag" for us. Our resident BRD would run around sleeping everyone while his BLM buddies would nuke everyone down. Kinda boring for the winning team, frustrating as hell for the losing team.

{Disclaimer} this is not a reciting of any facts with available sources...it is a statement of opinion based upon personal experiences of the player, and not intended to be taken as factual information. Said comments of the player are not to be considered the position of SE, their affiliates, or any employees of said orginisations. Please take this post with a grain of salt if you are offended by the views of the player and understand that opinions are like assholes... everyone has one, but it doesn't mean everyone wants to hear it.

Edit For the Moderators: I apologise for the language and tone of this post. This stream of thought just shot out of me without thinking, and I just couldn't help myself--it was just an easy setup to make a joke at the end with the disclamer tag. I apologize for the language...it was just too easy to take the cheap shot and expose the lunacy--that whole showing the absurdity with an absurd example thing.

[Karbuncle]

O M G

Urteil, you need to chill before you get a visit from the ban hammer.. Karbuncle was just stating OPINIONS, and never claimed they were facts--just commenting on his/her experience with PVP. The one "fact" touched on was a vague recollection of something read a long time ago about SE being reluctant to get into the PVP arena. Newsflash---I remember reading that same thing. In fact, I think it also showed up in a dev Q&A a while back.

I NEVER did ballista myself, it never held much attraction for me. I have, however done a lot of Brenner with LS and friends just for shits and giggles. And it felt kinda broken along the lines of what Karbuncle experienced, so we quit doing it except for testing our damage limits on gear swaps and testing out our pets and such. Brenner quickly became more a game of "Kill the Bard" then "Capture the Flag" for us. Our resident BRD would run around sleeping everyone while his BLM buddies would nuke everyone down. Kinda boring for the winning team, frustrating as hell for the losing team.



On the bolded Part, I remember at one point I would go into Brenner with my while i was on SMN, and just have him fight Avatars for Luls. That was one of the brighter sides to it all. This was back at 75 cap though, I would love to test it out at 90 cap.

I'd especially like to see how well things like Dipperyuly Hold up to an actual THF :o

[Qeepel]

Hi guys, please keep the comments on topic and avoid inflammatory comments. Such comments are not necessary towards the discussion and can result in disciplinary action to your account. Thank you.

[Karbuncle]

Hi guys, please keep the comments on topic and avoid inflammatory comments. Such comments are not necessary towards the discussion and can result in disciplinary action to your account. Thank you.

no no, Thank you ^^

[Harukusan]

And what do you propose as the alternative? You've basically described the MMO genre, its roots slinking back to the days of MU*s and P&P RPGs. Everything one might loathe about the Magian system pretty much existed in the game before that in some form (WS latents, killing mobs with DRK sword to unlock the job, kill an NM, trade an item, etc.).

At least most of it had some form of back story. Not just "Oh! I see you have this piece of gear! Would you like to do a trial? Yes? Are you sure? Are you really really sure? Just in case you forgot, I'm gonna smack you on the head with a giant star." I'm sick of that repetitiveness and jamming the Enter key hoping I don't miss and cancel my trial and have to go through that all over again.



Whatever "purpose" the devs had back then doesn't mean it was done right or even well. When I look back at old census data and see a large chunk of people weren't past the Promies or certain ranks/missions in ToAU, I say something is amiss. Ideally, content should be developed so everyone can experience it, not just a select few who oftentimes consider themselves more skilled.

The purpose was clear: it was to keep less fortunate players happy and refrain from complaining so much about how hard the game is. It was designed to be challenging. Sure it may have driven some people to quit, but many of us are still here, we overcame those challenges.

It didn't always take more skill persay to accomplish anything then, all it took was a little organization and common sense. And I still see that lack of common sense today. No matter how much they dumb down the game for everyone, some people are still going to feel confused or left out.

Solution? Make friends, etc etc.

FFXI was designed to be a community based game, and now just about everything is soloable. I'm not complaining about that though. It's quite convenient not having to rely on other people to do stuff, especially when you sometimes had to bring people who lacked in the skill department. But this of course has been promoting holding back on info from people and calling them noobs for not knowing what to do, and pushing newer players away with one of the latest common phrases "just solo it." This kind of childishness wasn't nearly as common before, mainly because most of us were on that boat trying to figure stuff out.

Although I do like to tease some older players who should know better...

If it wasn't for old players who took the time to explore and test new things, resources such as ffxiclopedia would not exist. You should all thank them instead of hassle them.

[Seriha]

At this point, I'll just say you're over-valuing story. A weapon is a weapon, be it from a moogle or some random NPC's family heirloom they felt like giving to you after doing whatever. Lore plays very little into how we actually play the game, for better or worse. However, if you want to look at how quests might be designed, then we'll have the following...

1) Magian Trials: Basically a hub of quests with varying conditions and rewards. Actual development time is minimal now that the system has been established.

2) Basic NPC text dump: For other MMOs, this might be a random NPC spewing a window of text at you all at once. For FFXI, we basically get the joy of spamming enter while we're told about some random problem or desire of the NPC. As I implied in my earlier post, these are basically Magian Trials with the moogle swapped and some flimsy pretext added. NPCs may or may not emote as you interact with them. Development time is increased since various parameters must be set and tested while including things like other quest pre-reqs, fame, mission progress, day rollovers, JP midnights, etc..

3) The Cutscene Quest: This is basically #2, but even more dev time has been spent animating a sequence of events to try and spice up the story. Arguably this has been one of XI's more unique features in the MMO scene, but it wasn't really until WotG that we started seeing unique and more life-like movements from NPCs instead of the basic mouth gob when text is "spoken".

Now, I like eye candy as much as the next gal, but I'm also pragmatic. I don't really feel like any of FFXI's stories have been particularly revolutionary and, in many cases, were outright forgettable. A CS won't really help that, only extending the temporary high of completion. When people get nothing tangible from a quest, though, you hit the point where a lot don't even bother because they don't see the point (A lot of people wouldn't bother with WotG until it was completed, for example). So, yes, while the story might be "the point" for some, it won't help you hit harder, cure for more, or reduce damage when it really counts... which is a large majority of the actual game. MMOs are built around combat systems, after all. Story is, unfortunately, fluff.

In terms of practically, however, if an update presented us with the option of getting 50 new items via #1 over 10 or so trying to pander to #2 and #3 because some say so, who do you think will be happier in the long run? Which is actually MORE content to keep people busy until the next patch? I'd be more inclined to side with people who feel trials are too grindy (and lacking in reward for random helpers) than those who feel they should be put on hold just for some more "meh" storytelling. Then again, maybe I've just been overexposed to creative media as both a consumer and producer for recreational purposes. In other words, I'm hard to impress/surprise/wow/whatever.