Bard as Melee?

[Retsujo]

I'm about to start equipping my BRD for melee (for funsies), and would like some advice from anyone who's already tested different gear. I don't think BRD will be able to hit the weak spot for massive damage or anything, but I still believe we can do decent damage, considering.

[Draylo]

Inside abyssea or ouside? Inside BRD can pretty much outdmg a DRK lol. They get access to Evisceration and a ton of DD gear.

[Retsujo]

Haha, talking traditionally here. Abyssea makes anyone a superstar!

[Lushipur]

brd should use sword and shield :P

[Usukane]

I have to try this now for fun.

BRD/NIN.

Twilight Knife + Felibre's Dague with Razed Ruins, Voracious Violet, and Apocalypse here I come.

[GERM]

Ive used hand me down gear for BRD melee such as the Walhara turbine (5% Haste lvl 75) Assualt Jerkin until I got my BRD af2 body, dusk gloves, chiv torqe and a couple melee rings but what your looking at for BRD is even though you have Evisceration (50% DEX mod only) your DEX sucks unless you sub THF and have a taru or mithra race. Mordant Rime would be the way to go that way you can stack attack gear and mix it up with your CHR gear (Mordant Rime main mod attribute is 50% CHR and 30% DEX) but that is even getting harder to do with the lack of people doing nyzule isle anymore. Remember also a BRD has a B- ranked dagger skill which isn't going to give you the accuracy or attack your looking for in a DD so stacking accuracy is a plus as well as increasing your attack and haste but remember you may have songs but your party isnt going to want +acc x 2 (LOL I know I've tried) songs just so you can hit more. Using a Blau Dolch Ive hit almost 3k with Evisceration once in abyssea. The average damage I do with my setup (no melee atma) is 1.8K which is crap for the amount of time it takes to get 100% TP and a 5 hit WS. A WHM can do this outside of abyssea with Hexa Strike.

[GERM]

Sorry I didn't think about this earlier but it has been on my mind since the last major update.

I would like to see a BRD with a better natural ability to do DoT with melee. Now the reason is (even though it doesn't apply to seal hunting or low manning upgrade gems) A BRD is a natural support role. It casts songs that take anywhere from 1-8 seconds to cast and even with the 4 songs and no fast cast abilities/equipment/ect ect you do have a lot of down time. Now being used a lot in exp. parties in abyssea I don't even have the option to refresh most mages since they are in a different party in the alliance and a WHM is very self sufficient in maintaining MP so Im casting 1 set of songs most of the time. This usually leads to me standing around or just chasing after the party to refresh songs more so with the song length + gear. Now in this situation and only buffing melee in the party I should have the option to melee and I do melee since those are the fellows Im supporting but without Regain atma a dagger only gives 5-7 TP per hit so im still looking at connecting and doing damage at least 14-20 hits and I normally don't use regain atma because there are better atmas to use for a BRD so why not give BRD a triple attack trait? this will not over power them and will just enhance the ability to gain TP and DoT (would really like to see quad attack but im not going to be too optamistic) with that in mind I wouldn't have a problem with Mordant Rime other then I can't find anyone to do Nyzule Isle to help me get the dagger.. Since MR is a 50% CHR and 30% DEX based WS and I have CHR that would rival a THF's DEX. I understand the SqEnix didnt have BRD in mind when they put the WS selection into play at the start but even now with abyssea there is more of a reason to implement something that can improve the damage output because Evisceration 30% Dex mod just isn't going to cut it for a job that has no reason to rely on DEX as a natural attribute (other then the accuracy reason). That just leads to the problem of having to carry more gear which is annoying for any job.
One more thing I would like to see is a Silence Song. You don't understand how hard it is to solo mage type mobs and and rely on paeon for HP..

[Retsujo]

I don't understand why Pianissimo and Tenuto can't stack, but if you sing ACC+2 songs with Tenuto on then buff melee with their songs it's all good.

If you're not using any melee atma, 1.8k damage with BRD actually seems pretty amazing, barring any other Abyssea buffs you might have to boost the appropriate skills.

I know what you mean with adding a silence song. Hell, I'd like to see a Paralyze song at that. The only ailment songs we get are Elegy, Finale, Requiem, and Threnody. If we can cause light-based DoT, weaken an enemy to a specific element from songs, and remove an enhancement from an enemy, I don't understand why we can't add in a Silence and Paralyze song to accompany our Slow song.

It would be nice to be able to make BRD a little more self-sufficient.

[Flowerlady]

I dont know if anyone in this thread went out and compared the stats that your Q.Q'ing about or not but brd/nin isnt that far behind thf in dex and when you compare a brd/nin to a thf/nin at 90 on a mithra you will find that thf only has 7 more base dex then brd and an equal amount of str and before you even start Q.Q'ing about that 7 dex there is tehse awesome pants every thf would still love to be able to equip but cant, Hyakko's Haidate, while they dont make up for all of the equipment thf has over brd for melee it certain levels the playing field a great deal as these pants are still some of the best. I should even note that brd/nin and brd/whm on a 90mithra has more base dex then base chr. While brd has not seen very many new item in the way of melee gear i certainly dont feel that they are lacking any good melee gear at all but just lecking in the same sort up upgrades that thief is seeing. brd can use the entire heca+1 set which is still a very decent set and every item from the sky god armor set(Genbu's shield, Kirins oso and so on). all of these items will shortly be augmentable in the next major update as per what SE said. Also brd has the option to change there range slot with out ever dropping any TP when they change inturments so you can gain TP in Angel lyre for 2% haste then switch to a Oliphant for the acc+3 and att+3 for a ws. Brd is able to use the twilight dagger which has an awesome proc rate and also the twashter among other great weapon choices. Brd has been able to reach the 25% haste cap since before 75+. The only disappointment i have in the gear selection for brd is Loki's Kaftan, Aias Bonnet, Twilight Belt, and Epona's Ring and i really wish there was something better to gain tp in aside from dusk+1 hands. Aside from that ill very kindly list the items im happy SE put brd as a usable job: Twilight Knife, Byakko's Haidate, Goliard Saio, Bullwhip Belt, Love Torque, Heca+1 set, Kirin's Osode, Warwolf belt, Atheling Mantle, Nifty Mantle, Brutal Earring, Delta Earring, Suppanomimi, Hollow Earring Just to name a few. There is also the option to turn any of the mini expansion equipment augments into a situational brd melee item such as the body armor or the cool hat.

As for song duration there is also this Mythic dagger for brd that just about none one ever bother to get but with the level 90 cap version and the help of other duration+ items its possible increase your song duration to the point you would be able to gain 100% tp more then once if your gearing your brd melee correctly.

Your atma choice is dependant normally on the part that you play in the party. If your coming brd/whm expecting to be able to heal, play songs, and do awesome damage then something has to give a little because you just cant have everything. If you want to melee on brd go brd/nin and tell your party before hand so they know you will be playing a melee/support roll and not a healer/support roll. When you get to the atmas pick your RR/VV/Apoc and go crazy with your muti-hit rate.

As a side note before the level increase i was able to match and in some cases out dmg other melees in bird merit parties on brd/nin and found Evisceration and Mordant Rime both to be very powerful weaponskills on brd and can still deal some very good numbers for a melee/support job. I have done between 900-1200 with MR mostly towards the middle and w/ Evisceration have done between 800-1400 all on brd/nin solo no food or songs long before 75+ in a test sample i did to see how brd matched up vs thf with out songs. At one point I was even invited to a party just to prove to everyone in the party that a brd is able to melee and keep songs up in bird camp while out parsing at lest one of the melees in the party. 30 mins into that party i was at the top of the parse next to a drg relic.

[darkShirou]

Battle Bard is so much fun! Bard's best weapon is dagger, so main-hand that for sure (make sure you get evisceration, it's the only good weaponskill they get outside of relic/mythic/empyrean ones). I personally main-hand twighlight knife, and offhand Joyeuse for effective power and good TP'ing. It is a very powerful job to be reckoned with, as no other DD job has access to the wide array of buffs and debuffs that BRD has at it's disposal. Byakko's Haidate is a godsend for BRD melee, plus general haste belt and/or anguinus belt, there's plenty of great equips at your disposal. Amazingly BRD can pretty much match THF's in evasion, with all the best evasion gear and double-mambo.

[GERM]

I don't understand why Pianissimo and Tenuto can't stack, but if you sing ACC+2 songs with Tenuto on then buff melee with their songs it's all good.
You actually can do this, I have done it before in a party but comparing the time your casting songs on the melee around you and if you dont have to refresh mages its possible and semi effecient to do but if you have a normal party setup and have to refresh mages and/or pull mobs its not time efficent because by the time you get your second song on your going to have to restart your cycle shortly after unless you have a lot of song length+ gear then its possible but who really wants to play 6 songs and be able to position yourself properly and then try to melee if your not trying to pull, its just a lot of work to manage and generally by the time you do have that 2nd buff on you the mob is probbably already dead and you have to restart the cycle again anyway (this is a lot of IMO I havent done a lot of experimenting with a 6 song setup and and melee ive usually done 4 songs with a melee)

Flowerlady you make some excellent points and you name some gear I didn't think of just because I haven't been able to acquire any god item other then Genbu shield but also you are comparing a Mithra that you play to my Elvaan that I play your dex is mighty and my CHR is mighty and that is why I think BRD should use MR over Evr.


bird merit parties on brd/nin and found Evisceration and Mordant Rime both to be very powerful weaponskills on brd and can still deal some very good numbers for a melee/support job. I have done between 900-1200 with MR mostly towards the middle and w/ Evisceration have done between 800-1400
That is awsome damage outside of abyssea but your killing birds which are weak to dagger damage the average enemy isnt weak to dagger

[Flowerlady]

you are comparing a Mithra that you play to my Elvaan that I play your dex is mighty and my CHR is mighty and that is why I think BRD should use MR over Evr.
Look up stat growth for 75-90 and you will see its pretty much leveled off for races from 75-90 and if it didnt tarutaru would have been 20 or more int over other races by 99. Right now the difference between a mithra thf/nin and a elvaan is 8 str for elvaans, 10 dex for mithras and 6 chr for elvaans. The difference between an Elvaan thf and elvaan brd would be very close to a mithra thf and a mithra brd because they both hold the same constant variable of race. You should really look at all properties of both weaponskills before you say that one will be better then the other and learn why certain weaponskills are used primarily in abyssea and not outside abyssea. What makes Evisceration so potent in abyssea is basicly RR. DEX+50, Crit hit rate +30%, Crit hit dmg +30% is so far beyond any amount of chr that you can stack onto MR because 1. MR will not crit hit and 2. +50dex. Please. before you make any assumptions get your facts straight so you can at least support your point of views with real data and just not opinions. Everyone has opinions about what might be better but until you do the numbers and test them then they will only be opinions. Lets cut the folk lure making here and get the data straight so the blind isn't leading the blind.


That is awsome damage outside of abyssea but your killing birds which are weak to dagger damage the average enemy isnt weak to dagger
Your right they are weak to piercing(-25 to piercing dmg) but for 3 years they were also the norm to compare any standards to as far as melee goes. Inside abyssea i have done Eviscerations that are pretty much on par with my thf with VV RR Apoc.

[Glamdring]

I used my bard /dnc in campaign to melee all the time until it got to be too powerful. 2 daggers ( i used Silktone and Kard at the time), keep hymnus up at all times, use march or madrigal if not taking damage, Paeon if you are. I wore full Relic armor. Even if you die you get XP due to raising yourself. Was fun.

[Yarly]

http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/42373

Ther are some old Mordant Rime numbers. Might not look amazing because people are used to seeing 4-5k average weaponskills now but even penta-SAM back in those days were only doing like 1500-2000 dmg average with a 2h weapon! Of course you'd see RNG and DRG to upwards of 3-4k but this isn't about what potential damage was like at 75.

BRD/DNC is pretty boss now. Haste samba, double marches, acc bonus (helps a bit due to B- dagger), dual wield, etc.

[Rubeus]

[dev1004]
the problem with bard is that
1: it doesn't gain any useful dagger WS and for the most part we're using staves for everything anyway.
2: we have no native shield skill and no skills above a B-. And at that, only 1 B-, and 1 C+.
3: songs take too much time to sing and don't last long enough for honestly trivial gains (to the bard). Bard cannot solo, has no MP pool to itself, has no job traits worth mentioning, and has a very limited pool of JAs. Corsair has more interesting effects and multiple JA that outrank it, for the most part and on the whole.

Bard needs MP, needs a shield, needs more WSes, needs gear built for doing things beyond running in circles 'more effectively', and needs some worthwhile traits.
If that happened, bard would open up to a whole new world of available and party-accepted SJ and solo possibilities.

Also, as a sidebar, I wouldn't mind having a JA that made a song "perpetual" for say, 15 minutes. Like everquest bards, where the song is just sort of 'always being sung' by that bard until they tell it to stop. I'd call it Virtuoso. Even with just 1 song like this, I could avoid having to pianissimo-ballad my paladin every 2 minutes and tenuto it to myself. Honestly, if we could just virtuoso ballad alone even on the party, our options to do better things expand exponentially.

And I'd make a JA called Sotto Voce, which would perhaps reduce a song's duration by half and effect by half but make it cast instantly (per quick cast but only usable with songs), and maybe even double the recast. I can't tell you how useful it would be to make my "I cant hit anything!" melee people happy between pulling mobs, ballading and etuding mages, ballading and mamboing the paladin, minuet and madrigal (or march for ninjas and thieves) the melee... there's a LOT of work that goes into being a GOOD bard. and on top of that im expected to pull, cure, debuff, raise occasionally, or keep shadows up (all depending on SJ of course). This would be a fantastic step in the right direction for those bards among us burned out from CoP-years onwards of doing the same monotonous stuff. I'd kiss your feet.

[Flowerlady]

Oh hi Rubeus! dev1004 has totally nothing to do with bard.

Bard has access to 3 of the best weaponskills in the game for dagger inside abyssea which are Rudra's Storm, Mercy Stroke, and Evisceration. They also have accesss to every single WS thf has access to minus Dancing Edge, Shark Bite and Mandalic Stab. Your short comings which requires you to use a staff should not be projected on the job its self and should be something you resolve personally as nothing else will change this issue you are having. Songs, the back bone of brd are able to over come the other short comings that you have mentioned in skill. Brd certainly does not take long at all to sing any song once you gear your brd correctly. from start to finish its 6 seconds from when you cast until you are able to cast again. thats 4 seconds from casting until the song effect is in place and the slight delay after. The duration of songs is also effected by a number of items in game and if your songs are only lasting 2 minutes i think it would certainly be in your best interest to look into something to help increase that time. If a brd has nothing in the way of gear songs are around 8 seconds to cast buff songs and 10 seconds before you can do anything. This is going to hold anyone back when it takes half the duration of the 1st song played to run around and play the next 3 songs. As i mentioned a few posts ago the brd mythic dagger at 90 allows brd a lot of flexibility. Brd has no logical reason to have any base MP. Songs require no MP. There is enough other ways to gain the needed base MP or you could use Conserve MP for casting other spells in and there is also Ballad I-III and a number of items which brd can equip that has refresh on them. Genbu's Shield isnt enough? Fencer, Critical Defense Bonus and Resist Silence I-IV are certainly very useful traits. The resist Silence alone has proced for me a number of times and even in very important fights. This isnt everquest and Sotto Voce has no use if you gear for -50% with Nightingale your songs go off in 2 seconds. The rest im not even going to touch because now your just Q.Q'ing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWx77VE7cmw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH62U7Q1A7g

[Superchicken]

Oh hi Rubeus! dev1004 has totally nothing to do with bard.

Bard has access to 3 of the best weaponskills in the game for dagger inside abyssea which are Rudra's Storm, Mercy Stroke, and Evisceration. They also have accesss to every single WS thf has access to minus Dancing Edge, Shark Bite and Mandalic Stab. Your short comings which requires you to use a staff should not be projected on the job its self and should be something you resolve personally as nothing else will change this issue you are having. Songs, the back bone of brd are able to over come the other short comings that you have mentioned in skill. Brd certainly does not take long at all to sing any song once you gear your brd correctly. from start to finish its 6 seconds from when you cast until you are able to cast again. thats 4 seconds from casting until the song effect is in place and the slight delay after. The duration of songs is also effected by a number of items in game and if your songs are only lasting 2 minutes i think it would certainly be in your best interest to look into something to help increase that time. If a brd has nothing in the way of gear songs are around 8 seconds to cast buff songs and 10 seconds before you can do anything. This is going to hold anyone back when it takes half the duration of the 1st song played to run around and play the next 3 songs. As i mentioned a few posts ago the brd mythic dagger at 90 allows brd a lot of flexibility. Brd has no logical reason to have any base MP. Songs require no MP. There is enough other ways to gain the needed base MP or you could use Conserve MP for casting other spells in and there is also Ballad I-III and a number of items which brd can equip that has refresh on them. Genbu's Shield isnt enough? Fencer, Critical Defense Bonus and Resist Silence I-IV are certainly very useful traits. The resist Silence alone has proced for me a number of times and even in very important fights. This isnt everquest and Sotto Voce has no use if you gear for -50% with Nightingale your songs go off in 2 seconds. The rest im not even going to touch because now your just Q.Q'ing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWx77VE7cmw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH62U7Q1A7g

couldn't agree more. There's two things called Troubadour and Nightingale, should look into tthose! and like mentioned above bard song + gear to further increase your song length

[magnius]

I played with BRD/NIN when campaign was big. First, it attacks insanely fast especially when you have a decent amount of haste gear and march songs, so you'd be spamming Evisceration. Second, like someone said BRD has a nice amount of choices of gear to DD. Unfortunately, you have to stop to sing. However, with AF3+2 and various accessories, you can cut your song casting time to about 50%. This is what I'd probably use if I ever get around to using BRD again.

Twilight Knife + Felibre's Dague
W.Turhan
B.Haidate
Ninurta
Suppanomimi/Brutal Earring
Rajas/Mars's
Marduk's dastanas(only because I got rid of Dusk gloves)
Marine F boots
Kirin's osode
Atheling Mantle
Love torque

Hecatomb cap
Warwolf belt
Pixie Earring
Hct. Leggings
Hecatomb Mittens
Kirin's osode
Hecatomb Subligar

[Babekeke]

Other good gear includes Goliard Body for TPing (4% haste) and Choral Cannions +1 for WS (STR+8 DEX+8). And there are so many other options for weapons in the form of Magian daggers. If you also ahve thf levelled, you will likely have many of them already. Good ones for DNC include Occasionally attacks 2-4 times dagger for off-hand, and DEX/ACC for main hand if you don't have twilight.