Nukes!!!

[Krysten]

since the game is almost done can you just give us our new Banish spells already :D

just do it SE dont argue lol.

[Catmato]

I agree. Also, native Dual-Wield.

[Hoshi]

Hmm, native dual-wield on WHM would be crazy fun! :D

[Raiyara]

Actually wish they would stop evading this and just give WHM's the last few tiers of Banish and Banishga. Its actually something that makes little sense as WHM while its the primary healer of course really lacks in decent offensive capabilities for solo or lower difficulty stuff.

BLM obviously has its nukes and staff skills, RDM has enfeebs and even Tier V nukes, SCH can switch stances as needed but WHM gets left with mid level nukes I mean come on SE the last Banish Spell WHM gets is Banish 3 at lvl65, we dont get Banishga III even tho every single WHM NPC and Mob has it and We dont even get Banish IV which some WHM NPCs and Mobs seem to have above lvl80 or so. BLM used to have One tier Higher in both single tier and aga form and now they got even tier 6 Nukes and WHM is stuck at 2005 offensive spell levels.

It isnt too much to ask to simply just add in Banish IV or even Banish V and give us Banishga III and IV so that we could at least throw in the occasional MB now and again if were not being taxed its really silly at this stage to leave WHM with such subpar offensive capabilites when every other caster job as gotten improvements since the level cap raise.

[Olor]

Actually wish they would stop evading this and just give WHM's the last few tiers of Banish and Banishga. Its actually something that makes little sense as WHM while its the primary healer of course really lacks in decent offensive capabilities for solo or lower difficulty stuff.

BLM obviously has its nukes and staff skills, RDM has enfeebs and even Tier V nukes, SCH can switch stances as needed but WHM gets left with mid level nukes

Er... Hexastrike and other club skills are awesome. WHM is way better at melee than blm etc.

Anyway I agree we should get rest of the banish line, but not because we're bad soloers... new banish spells won't change that.

[Zeldar]

WHM DD....gtfo.....

[Jile]

Banishga3/Banish4....Native dual wield...

My inner Winja approves! lol

[Raiyara]

Dual wield on whm would be very unlikely IMO for Whm though we have dnc and nin sub for that.

Still hoping one day for remaining spells like Banish 4/5/6 and banishga 3/4/5 along with other ommitances. Theres many spells for different jobs that we "should" have gotten ever since the 75 cap raise but never did for some reason.

[Catmato]

Dual wield on whm would be very unlikely IMO for Whm though we have dnc and nin sub for that.

That's true, but that doesn't mean we can't ask for it anyway.

[Raiyara]

Still wanting all those banish spells.... :D

[Zeldar]

If you want to nuke, level a nuking job. If you want to DD, level a DD job. WHM is a HEALING job, in case you missed the memo.

[BBWallace]

http://popcrush.com/files/2015/05/mariah-carey-side-eye.gif

That still doesn't explain why we don't have the Higher Tier Banish spells unless you missed the memo

[Zeldar]

Well, you don't have it because you don't need it. Does it remove status ailments r cure your party? No. So the parties healer doesn't need it. Implementing it would be a waste of limited developer time. Explanation enough?

[Sirmarki]

Didn't they say that they arent able to add any new spells somewhere on the forum?

[BBWallace]

Didn't they say that they arent able to add any new spells somewhere on the forum?

They can'y add new spells as in no New(Not spells that in game that are monster only) spells with new animation. The spells we are asking for are all in the game just only Monster only.

[Zeldar]

I'm not a programmer but I'm not sure it works that way. Otherwise, why would they say no new BLU spells? There are hundreds of mob abilities in the game already that could be made into BLU spells.

[Jakuk]

I'm not a programmer but I'm not sure it works that way. Otherwise, why would they say no new BLU spells? There are hundreds of mob abilities in the game already that could be made into BLU spells.

Indeed, though unless I'm mistaken, these were available on the test server before being removed so the animation and such is already available.


BLM obviously has its nukes and staff skills, RDM has enfeebs and even Tier V nukes, SCH can switch stances as needed but WHM gets left with mid level nukes I mean come on SE the last Banish Spell WHM gets is Banish 3 at lvl65, we dont get Banishga III even tho every single WHM NPC and Mob has it and We dont even get Banish IV which some WHM NPCs and Mobs seem to have above lvl80 or so. BLM used to have One tier Higher in both single tier and aga form and now they got even tier 6 Nukes and WHM is stuck at 2005 offensive spell levels.

By the same logic you could argue for cures for BLM or higher tiers for SCH and RDM. I mean Cure IV is level 48 for RDM, BLM only has Drain for HP recovery and so on.

[Zeldar]

Arguing that WHM should have damage dealing traits like higher nuking power and native dual wield (I really hope this one was sarcasm), is like arguing that BLM should have native cures, WAR should have native enfeebles, or BRD should have access to sneak attack simply because it can wield a dagger. Dealing damage is not in the job description.

[Jerbob]

Actually, WAR does have a really good native enfeeble - Full Break. BLM has a native cure in Drain. BRD doesn't have sneak attack but it does have Virelai to charm, which has nothing to do with support, and the Fencer job trait. MNK is a physical DD but it can deal magical damage with Formless Strikes and heal itself with Chakra. Dragoon is also a physical DD but it has some great healing options with Healing Breath and status-removal breaths. RUN is a tank but can magic burst with Lunge and significantly weaken a monster's magic defence. Furthermore, all spellcasting jobs have unique weaponskills, some of which are really quite good (Mystic Boon, Vidohunir).

All of these examples demonstrate that every single job has tools that lie outside its player-accepted purpose. Generally they're not as good or convenient as tools used by the specialists - BLM's drain isn't going to get you far, Virelai is mostly just a fun thing to play with when soloing, Formless Strikes has limited uptime - but they exist, they're useful, and they're fun. WHM is never going to be a nuker to rival BLM or be a top tier melee job, and I agree that it shouldn't be for all the reasons you've given, but Banish IV and native dual wield would not change that - just as we don't usually have dragoon main healers or armies of BRDs taking down NMs with charmed monsters.

...Actually that would be really excellent. We need Virelai II immediately. ;)

[Rydal]

Well, you don't have it because you don't need it. Does it remove status ailments r cure your party? No. So the parties healer doesn't need it. Implementing it would be a waste of limited developer time. Explanation enough?

WHM doesn't NEED it but that doesn't make it invalid or not a part of their job. They DO have it. Banish and Holy spells are a part of a WHM's repertoire. Why else do they get so much Banish vs undead potency gear and have Banish and Holy exclusively besides PLD (who can't use them nearly as well as WHM)? You're not making sense. That's like saying BLM shouldn't get Firaga IV because they don't have it. They don't NEED it, but it would make sense to add them. Plenty of jobs have spells and abilities that don't help their main role.

In regards to the BLU spells comment:

"For blue mages, we have already reached the limit for the amount of spells we can add. Unfortunately, we cannot increase any further."

It doesn't sound like they don't want to add more BLU spells, they just can't because they reached the max capacity. BLUs have the most spells in the game so it makes sense that they'd hit the limit sooner or later.

[Zeldar]

OK, so you have made valid arguments for higher tier banishes, and I can get behind that. Native dual wield though? You can't possible be serious. This was only given to actual melee jobs with high dagger or sword as their main weapon to give them more subjob options than nin. For whm, its simply for screwing around. So if you want to just screw around, hey its a game have at it.....but sub nin or dnc.

As for calling an added effect of a ws an actual enfeeble.... lame example. As for calling drain a cure, which you cant use on party members, lame example. Formless strikes I'm not going to argue really.....its pretty high non-physical damage and like you said, its limited.

[Jerbob]

Why are they lame examples? I think they perfectly illustrate the point - that jobs can have abilities outside of their traditional role, but they tend to be different or more limited. Full Break is actually good when it lands, but it's far less convenient than "proper" enfeebles. Drain is great when you need it, but far more limited than "proper" cures. High tier Banish would be fun to magic burst with, but no match for "proper" nukes. Dual wielding clubs can be an enjoyable way to play WHM, but with the same effort put in it's unlikely to match "proper" melee damage.

[Zeldar]

So you would say that by having the abilty to maybe land 1 enfeeble, that job has "enfeebling capabilities"? Well, in that case my thf is a freaking BEAST, because i can aspir with a ws, and do magic damage with others! That means I'm like a blm now too, right? Oh, and my WAR has healing capabilities if I strap on a sword and use sanguine blade! Having 1 enfeeble is far more than simply "limited" . Its an afterthought.

[Selindrile]

I wish every job had dual wield 0 starting at level 1, no attack speed bonus, heck, could make it an attack speed penalty of 10% or whatever, mostly I just want it to have more offhand stat options on mages, because mage shields are pretty crappy in comparison to having an offhand weapon, statwise.

[Raiyara]

Dual wield wouldnt really fit a WHM main since its trait mainly for ninja and thf/dnc really.

Banish tho is something that WHM should have up to max tier as its the only real offensive spell whm has. As said before the last spell in that line WHM gets is at lvl65 yet mobs and npcs not only have the -aga 3 version but high tier use banish 4. Why WHM never got these like blm got tier 5 nukes is a mystery so far.

Its no harm for Whm to have max level spells anyhow and its one of those missing leftovers from the level cap raise.

Also Blm should have tier iv aga elemental spells as well. :)

[Selindrile]

Dual wield wouldnt really fit a WHM main since its trait mainly for ninja and thf/dnc really.

At this moment in time, sure, but historically this was not the case, the most common dual wielder in the first years of the game was War, and soloist-Rdm (both subbing Nin), Nin did but it wasn't used as frequently, though after some time, Nin did become more widely used and was the Pre-eminent dual wielder.

Thf only got dual wield natively somewhat recently, though they often subbed Nin for it, often they didn't. You also forgot to mention Blu, they were in a similar boat to Thf for a long time, frequently subbing Nin, but not always. Also Whm/Nin was not too uncommon, old bones parties and Whms soloing things pretty frequently comes to mind, but they didn't do it as often as Rdm did.

Traits are only "mainly for ____" until they're not.


Banish tho is something that WHM should have up to max tier as its the only real offensive spell whm has. As said before the last spell in that line WHM gets is at lvl65 yet mobs and npcs not only have the -aga 3 version but high tier use banish 4. Why WHM never got these like blm got tier 5 nukes is a mystery so far.

While I don't necessarily think Whm would get less out of higher tier banishes than offhand clubs for more Macc, I see no reason not to give them both, it wouldn't break anything, and it would be fun, to use your words, neither of these things would harm anything, or even rebalance anything. (Again, you could put an attack speed penalty in for DW0, high as you like, to discourage people from meleeing with it without /Nin, if you like.)

Its no harm for Whm to have max level spells anyhow and its one of those missing leftovers from the level cap raise.


Also Blm should have tier iv aga elemental spells as well. :)

While at heart I really have no problem with this, considering Blm's position in the game at the moment, maybe wait for another time? But, honestly, it would probably be fine.

[Jerbob]

So you would say that by having the abilty to maybe land 1 enfeeble, that job has "enfeebling capabilities"? Well, in that case my thf is a freaking BEAST, because i can aspir with a ws, and do magic damage with others! That means I'm like a blm now too, right? Oh, and my WAR has healing capabilities if I strap on a sword and use sanguine blade! Having 1 enfeeble is far more than simply "limited" . Its an afterthought.
That's exactly the point though! This is the counterargument to your assertion that WHM is a healing job, no more, and thus should not have access to non-healing traits. No job in FFXI is so narrowly defined as that - all jobs have tools that extend beyond their primary role. Your THF is not a "beast" magic DD with Aeolian Edge, but it has the capability and sometimes it's actually quite handy. You're not a BLM, but you don't have to be in order to deal magic damage in moderation. WHM with additional non-healing traits would be exactly the same. They're not meant to be beasts! It's meant to be fun, useful in niche situations, and something job enthusiasts can work on to get the most out of their favourite jobs. These off-role capabilities aren't something we can exclude just because WHM is a healer, or THF is a melee DD.

However, if we were operating under the paradigm that jobs should only have capabilities precisely within their defined role, THF shouldn't have Aeolian Edge at all!

[Zeldar]

WHM IS a healing job: no more. If you want to have dual wield to have "fun", then sub a job that allows for this. And most jobs ARE so narrowly defined. BLM and DDs cant heal parties without the appropriate sub. Why? because they are not healing jobs. Some jobs are meant to be hybrids: RDM obviously, NIN was meant as an enfeebling DD, DNC is meant to be a support job. WHM was meant to heal. At least your argument for higher tier banishes has some sensible foundation. The arguements made on this forum to give WHM native DW are just ludacris. As for my post about thf, it was absolute sarcasm to show how idiotic it is to expect a whm to have nuking power or DW natively. I really can't believe people are lobbying for this. It just blows my mind.

[Jerbob]

You're continuing to ignore the fact that I've repeatedly given examples (including your own example!) of jobs that have capabilities outside of their given role that aren't competitive with specialists, but still useful in low-intensity or niche situations - clear parallels to the suggestions being made in this thread for WHM.

I guess we're not going to agree! But that's fine.

[Zeldar]

My own example? What, a magical WS? All jobs have that. You have made a strong case for banishes, which I have already said. Anyone has yet to say how it would make any sense at all for a WHM to get native dual-wield! Dual-wield was given to the 3 additional jobs that ONLY equip 1-handed weapons and ONLY had the /nin and /dnc options. Outside of things like VW where a blu can sub pld and shield bash, and outside of leveling pre level 24, when has it EVER been better to wear 1 dagger or sword on BLU, THF, or DNC???? NEVER. It ade sense that these jobs got dual wield. There is no real situation where it makes sense for WHM to naturally be able to equip 2 weapons. WHM weapons are not for attacking. Dual-wield i a DD trait.

[Selindrile]

outside of leveling pre level 24, when has it EVER been better to wear 1 dagger or sword on BLU, THF, or DNC???? NEVER.

I take umbridge with the word "EVER" in this sentence, Blu/Thf, Blu/Rdm, Blu/War and even Blu/Whm and later Sch curing with a staff were all reasonably frequent party setups. (The last one was a bit more rare.) If you don't believe me, go look at all the old forum posts from the years after Blu came out, I'd almost wager Blu/Thf was more common than Blu/Nin, at least in the Lv30~72 range, and again on Dark Ixion and Odin for Frightful Roar and Sneak Attack Cannonball. I main healed many a party when we couldn't find a healer, and occasionally I would /War and tank with Provoke and Cocoon.

Thf also would sub War somewhat frequently, because Berserk was better DPS if you didn't need Utsusemi shadows, though it was definitely less than 50% of the time, admittedly.

Dnc and Nin are the only jobs that I can think of that exclusively Dual Wielded, well, outside of the times Nin was using Earth Staff to tank or kite-tank, which did happen sometimes.


There is no real situation where it makes sense for WHM to naturally be able to equip 2 weapons. WHM weapons are not for attacking. Dual-wield i a DD trait.

Any situation where dual clubs comes out to more cure potency II, or macc than your current staff options it makes sense for a Whm to naturally be able to equip 2 weapons, as I said, put a giant slow penalty on Dual Wield 0 and you don't have to worry about it ever being a DD trait lol as it would decrease your melee DPS.

While I agree Dual Wield was intended to be a DD trait, so what, Ninja was intended to be a DPS job as they're so fond of saying, but for a good 7 years or so they were our best tank job, and that was really neat, things can change if it makes things more interesting or fun at the end of the day.

Also, there's a bit of hilarity here, if you care about developer intentions, Whm WAS meant to melee with the party, don't believe me? Go watch any of the old dev-released videos of their party play. Not that I really think this matters, but it's funny, Hexa Strike is Whm only, all Whm bones parties were a thing, and to a surprisingly large extent, they did intend Whm to melee, heck Whm relic is built around meleeing, though the Mythic is certainly useful without it.

[Zeldar]

OK, so now WHM is a melee job. I want to start seeing you guys up close and personal with level 135 + content, now that they are making melee'ing them again possible. Come on...put your money where your mouth is. Post some videos as proof. I dare you . Otherwise, you are flapping your gums and wasting my time. I'll check back on this, one of the dumbest threads ever created, in a week.

[BBWallace]

Its like arguing with a brick wall. Every point they made has been clocked already. Yet they keep attempting to make themselves seem right.

https://m.popkey.co/db2188/Zm6Nl_s-200x150.gif

[Zeldar]

I like arguing with morons who would rather see precious dev time wasted on stupid things than actual content.

[Zeldar]

And every point i've made has basically been met with some form of "it makes sense bc we want it...."

[Catmato]

Wow, who knew a single comment I made in jest a year ago would start a flame war? If anyone cares, yes, I'd like dual-wield on WHM but no, I don't think it would ever happen, and no, I don't think it would make sense. I would like the option to sub something besides NIN or DNC for meleeing, but I know it'll never happen.

Zeldar, you've made your points and you're right. Anyone with a bit of logic can see you're right, so why do you continue to beat the dead horse?

[Zeldar]

Aaaaand in a LS of 24 on atm, 5 of which are whm main, responses to me saying "so apparently whm should have native DW" the responses were as follows:

"Are you drunk?"
"you've been on the forums again i see....."
"is it (a certain horrible whm on our server) requesting it?"
"those people are retarded"
"i think the jobs that it makes sense to have it already have it"
"............"
"this conversation isn't even worth our time"

So yeah, it isn't just me.

[Zeldar]

Point well taken Catmato. Maybe it just took someone else with common sense agreeing with me openly to get me off of this thread.

[Selindrile]

I don't know how I can make my viewpoint any clearer, I like the thought of dual wielding for the benefit to Cure/Enfeebling, and sure, Nuke sets. I have never melee Whm'd, I have no intention of doing so, I have jobs that I'd rather melee on if I'm meleeing.

As to Dev time required to implement such a thing, it would be rather minimal. However, I barely care, this is not one of my flagship causes by any stretch, I simply have to point out the incorrectness and the inconsistencies in almost all of your arguments, because they are painfully glaring.

[Zeldar]

I don't know how I can make my viewpoint any clearer, I like the thought of dual wielding for the benefit to Cure/Enfeebling, and sure, Nuke sets. I have never melee Whm'd, I have no intention of doing so, I have jobs that I'd rather melee on if I'm meleeing.

As to Dev time required to implement such a thing, it would be rather minimal. However, I barely care, this is not one of my flagship causes by any stretch, I simply have to point out the incorrectness and the inconsistencies in almost all of your arguments, because they are painfully glaring.

Thank you for proving my point. You have never melee'd whm. You have no intention of doing so. You barely care. Why? Because it makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Selindrile]

In what possible way could I have proven your point, I've already proven your points incorrect. You never attempted to make the point that melee Whm was inefficient compared to other jobs based on merit, had you, I'd have readily agreed.

Whm isn't efficient as a melee DD compared to other options. Once again, I would like to see Whm (and indeed all jobs) with the ability to dual wield to have more options for spells.

The actual things you stated were as follows:

You tried to say that jobs never get abilities outside of their core role. - Wrong
You tried to say their was no historical basis of Whms dual wielding. - Wrong
You tried to say devs had no intentions of Whms meleeing. - Wrong
You tried to say it was a waste of dev time. - Debatable, in theory it shouldn't be much of a time investment, but, that's hard to say with authority.

[Zeldar]

The core purpose of dual wield is to hit things with 2 weapons, not to gain attributes from 2 weapons. Forgive me for thinking this obvious and not pointing it out earlier. I assumed it was a given. You will see that the great minds that run this game will agree with me when they laugh at your posts and move on to real issues.

[Selindrile]

The "core purpose" differs from person to person depending on who is lobbying for the change, for the majority, that may be so, but I made it abundantly clear that this was my reasoning for lobbying for such a thing, multiple times. It was obvious you didn't think melee Whm was efficient, but you never point blank said it, so I had no reason to state my agreement with that part.

But you posted a number of incorrect statements in your reasoning that I felt deserved to be pointed out.

Also, the devs ignore the majority of posts, good and bad alike, saying that such will be ignored by the devs has little bearing over the validity of the post.

[BBWallace]

I don't care for DW on whm considering I would never get anywhere near the mob for it to be usefully. All I want are higher tier banish spells. Which if you ask most whm they would prob say yes. And for you saying oh WHM is a healer why have I seen some WHM's out nuking Geo/rdm? Anyways SE gives us Banish 4&5 please.

[Jakuk]

I don't care for DW on whm considering I would never get anywhere near the mob for it to be usefully. All I want are higher tier banish spells. Which if you ask most whm they would prob say yes. And for you saying oh WHM is a healer why have I seen some WHM's out nuking Geo/rdm? Anyways SE gives us Banish 4&5 please.

From what I understand they don't want it for melee, it's because two one-handed weapons give greater buffs than one two-handed staff. tbf there is no real reason against dual wield being possible for all, albeit with no delay reduction.

[Zeldar]

In what possible way could I have proven your point, I've already proven your points incorrect. You never attempted to make the point that melee Whm was inefficient compared to other jobs based on merit, had you, I'd have readily agreed.

Whm isn't efficient as a melee DD compared to other options. Once again, I would like to see Whm (and indeed all jobs) with the ability to dual wield to have more options for spells.

The actual things you stated were as follows:

You tried to say that jobs never get abilities outside of their core role. - Wrong
You tried to say their was no historical basis of Whms dual wielding. - Wrong
You tried to say devs had no intentions of Whms meleeing. - Wrong
You tried to say it was a waste of dev time. - Debatable, in theory it shouldn't be much of a time investment, but, that's hard to say with authority.

Please reply with quotes where I have said any of this aside from point 4. Maybe you have misunderstood, or don't want to understand, things I have said.

[Selindrile]

You tried to say that jobs never get abilities outside of their core role.


Well, you don't have it because you don't need it. Does it remove status ailments r cure your party? No. So the parties healer doesn't need it.

Jerbob rebutted you quite well. Also there are many situations where non-core capabilites of jobs come in quite handy, or where job-capabilities expand or change, many of which were talked about.

About the "no historical basis of Whms dual wielding" I may have been a bit sloppy on my description, my apologies, I was referring to:


Outside of things like VW where a blu can sub pld and shield bash, and outside of leveling pre level 24, when has it EVER been better to wear 1 dagger or sword on BLU, THF, or DNC???? NEVER. It ade sense that these jobs got dual wield. There is no real situation where it makes sense for WHM to naturally be able to equip 2 weapons. WHM weapons are not for attacking.

I responded with:


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/showthread.php?p=583549#post583549

Because there have been many times single-wielding has been historically superior, and a few where it made sense for Whms to dual wield.

You tried to say devs had no intentions of Whms meleeing.


WHM IS a healing job: no more.
WHM was meant to heal.


WHM weapons are not for attacking.

Where it's clear the Devs meant for them to melee, at least during normal exp, take a lot at Mjollnir, take a look at all the dev videos they released of Whms meleeing. For goodness sake Auspice (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Auspice) provides Enlight and accuracy to the Whm itself only when meleeing.

Do I agree with the idea that really they should Melee? No, but did the devs mean them to? - Clearly.

[Zeldar]

LOL, so by giving WHM weaponskills, they meant for them to melee. OK then, I guess all jobs were meant to melee, because all jobs have access to weaponskills. It making no swnse for a WHM to melee and WHM historically not being melee are completely different. "You don't have it because you don't need it. " is far from saying jobs never get abilities outside of their core role. So you "rebutted" everything I said my completely misquoting me. Beautiful.

[Zeldar]

And yes, you ARE right about another thing (I already bowed out of the no new banish debate) : I overstated it a bit when I said those single handed weapons NEVER used any sub but DNC or NIN. I do recall the BLU/THF days. I do not recall THF/WAR or BLU/WAR in the old days for end game content, but you may be right. It still doesn't disprove the point that the jobs that it makes sense to have native dual wield now have it. As a funny side note, the person that first suggested native WHM dual wield a year or so ago just posted in this thread, saying it was sarcasm (as I suspected and stated in an earlier post.)

[Rydal]

The only way WHM would be able to get native DW is if all jobs got native DW. Also, WHM has a lot of support for meleeing (weapon and JA-wise). Properly geared, almost every job can melee to decent success, save for BLM, SCH and SMN, if they have a single-hand weapon B or above and have SOME sort of JA/JT/spell that help them melee while subbing NIN or DNC. GEO can do it. BRD can do it. Self buffing is the key since they usually lack the power or speed to just melee alone. Will they be doing it in Reisenjima HELM? Probably not. But they can definitely do it in Delve, SR and maybe even Vagary now. Even Apex CP parties if done correctly.

[Selindrile]

LOL, so by giving WHM weaponskills, they meant for them to melee. OK then, I guess all jobs were meant to melee, because all jobs have access to weaponskills. It making no swnse for a WHM to melee and WHM historically not being melee are completely different. "You don't have it because you don't need it. " is far from saying jobs never get abilities outside of their core role. So you "rebutted" everything I said my completely misquoting me. Beautiful.

By giving them Auspice, with special effects that only work when meleeing, a relic that only works when you melee, and most of the old videos that showed Whms in exp parties meleeing, it's clear they meant for them to melee at least some of the time, and actually yes, they did intend for all jobs to melee during exp in the early years of the game, that position has since changed, but the argument in this case was about intent.

I didn't misquote you, I literally posted a link to your quote, it's pretty cut and dry. "You don't have it because you don't need it" = "You don't get things you don't need" = "You don't get abilities outside your core role." it has the same meaning, I was just trying to use less pronouns, for clarity.


As a funny side note, the person that first suggested native WHM dual wield a year or so ago just posted in this thread, saying it was sarcasm (as I suspected and stated in an earlier post.)


If anyone cares, yes, I'd like dual-wield on WHM but no, I don't think it would ever happen, and no, I don't think it would make sense. I would like the option to sub something besides NIN or DNC for meleeing, but I know it'll never happen.

Once again, nope, saying that they don't think it'll ever happen isn't the same thing as being sarcastic, they literally said it was something they'd like/want, therefore, not sarcasm.


The only way WHM would be able to get native DW is if all jobs got native DW.

That's literally what I'd hoped for in my initial post, though in my case I'd be happy even if there was an attack speed penalty for "Dual Wield 0" as I'm primarily after the ability to dual wield clubs for spell modifiers, also, I agree with the rest of that post.

[Zeldar]

"Wow, who knew a single comment I made in jest a year ago would start a flame war?" -the part of Catmato's quote that you intentionally left out. saying something in jest =sarcasm. I see you are the type to twist and omit others words to make your point seem more valid.

Auspice is a party buff, though they do give a bonus to the caster himself with afflatus misery up. Are you going to use misery over solace in a party? You may use it solo, but that is an abnormal situation for a whm. Solo you may be better off subbing DNC or NIN anyway.

All mage relics,mythics and empyreans are made better if you melee. That doesn't necessarily mean they meant for us to melee. Nirvana is outclassed by a few other staves if you don't have afterglow up. I asked months ago for SMN to be given non melee means of TP gain, like BLM has. Of course, I was never answered. I don't believe they meant for mages to melee. I believe they didn't put enough thought into how a mages aftermath should work. WHM should gain TP through curing. SMN should gain tp through a blood pact or ability like elemental siphon. The omission of a sensible for a mage to get TP doesn't mean they intended you to use a senseless one.

Melee WHM in any content level 125+ and see how your party reacts. Ask for their honest opinion. See what you get.

[Selindrile]

"Wow, who knew a single comment I made in jest a year ago would start a flame war?" -the part of Catmato's quote that you intentionally left out. saying something in jest =sarcasm. I see you are the type to twist and omit others words to make your point seem more valid.

Auspice is a party buff, though they do give a bonus to the caster himself with afflatus misery up. Are you going to use misery over solace in a party? You may use it solo, but that is an abnormal situation for a whm. Solo you may be better off subbing DNC or NIN anyway.

All mage relics,mythics and empyreans are made better if you melee. That doesn't necessarily mean they meant for us to melee. Nirvana is outclassed by a few other staves if you don't have afterglow up. I asked months ago for SMN to be given non melee means of TP gain, like BLM has. Of course, I was never answered. I don't believe they meant for mages to melee. I believe they didn't put enough thought into how a mages aftermath should work. WHM should gain TP through curing. SMN should gain tp through a blood pact or ability like elemental siphon. The omission of a sensible for a mage to get TP doesn't mean they intended you to use a senseless one.

Melee WHM in any content level 125+ and see how your party reacts. Ask for their honest opinion. See what you get.

Fair enough, I actually did miss the "in jest" part, legitimately, that was in no way a purposeful omission, and it does admittedly mean that it would be sarcastic, but then they go on to say after the fact that it's something they would like, these two things can't both be true, so I will leave it to Catmato to clarify, I may have been wrong there.

Actually, we do often use Misery over Auspice in a party, however it's not for it's benefit to melee, but because of how it effects esuna.
Yes, all the REM are better if you melee, but Mjollnir (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Mjollnir_(Level_75)), when it came out, did literally nothing for you if you didn't melee, and it was Whms ONLY superweapon at that time, that's more than a little bit different from saying "better if you melee".

Also you made a mistake with saying 125+ content, I never melee on Whm, ever, but we had a Whm who did for quite a while, he's quit now, but Priestbilly meleed on Reisenjimma T2s or lower, it made us grin and eyeroll, but it ultimately didn't hurt anything, as those are easy anyway, we actively had to tell him not to melee on some of the harder stuff though lol.

I don't know how many times I can tell you that I agree with you on that part, Whm aren't efficient melees, but that doesn't mean that pretty much every argument for you put forth against them getting DW isn't hilariously inaccurate/silly/off base.

[Catmato]

so I will leave it to Catmato to clarify, I may have been wrong there.

It doesn't matter either way, you're both arguing over semantics. Also, just because I made the initial comment (to support my friend Krysten's thread), doesn't mean I have any greater say in this argument.


but Priestbilly meleed on Reisenjimma T2s or lower,

PB has always been the exception when talking about WHM Melee.

[Selindrile]

PB has always been the exception when talking about WHM Melee.

Oh? I didn't know he had any particular fame on the matter (He was a transfer), I can remember a number of melee Whm enthusiasts on our server, Mathematical (Debatably the most accomplished NA LS on our server.) had several people who would melee Whm on occasion, and I can recall meeting several others who did to varying degrees of success.

[Zeldar]

I call BS on "successful whm melee." I know its bs... you know its bs... why even try to fool anyone? BTW, DD whm in content at your own level or below isnt "success"

[Selindrile]

*shrug* Others would disagree with that, Bones parties back in the day were at least arguably efficient, I've had some alright melee Whms in Delve (around the time Delve2 came out or after) again, for the billionth time, I want dual wield for the stats, I don't care if you put a giant attack speed penalty on it, I don't think Whms meleeing is efficient, or ever the best way to do anything, but on plenty of content it's "fine".

[Zeldar]

I think you should just lobby for better mage shields.

[Catmato]

Oh? I didn't know he had any particular fame on the matter (He was a transfer), I can remember a number of melee Whm enthusiasts on our server, Mathematical (Debatably the most accomplished NA LS on our server.) had several people who would melee Whm on occasion, and I can recall meeting several others who did to varying degrees of success.

He was on Leviathan, and was always sporting his Mjolnir, back when relics meant something.

[Selindrile]

I think you should just lobby for better mage shields.

This would be fine too, admittedly.

[Zeldar]

Better shields all around would be welcome. If they want BST and WAR to utilize fencer, they need to give them better shields.