119 relics:

[ValronXI]

Any chance these are going to be re-visited in upcoming patches?

mainly, Gun relic, could say bow too but... lets not go there right now

i feel that the -enimity gained from these weapons is now usless with the new hate system... you can spam whatever weapon skills you want as a ranger and not pull hate...

im open to debate on this too. i just feel that relics are now becoming jokes with the new skirmish weapons augments available...

[VoiceMemo]

I bet the But.... part was that Aegis and Gjallarhorn should have a 119 version :p

[ValronXI]

@ Voicememo : No....just....no. those items serve a purpose, one is to cap marches and one is to cap -MDT or possibly break the -mdt cap... idk i dont play tank jobs.

both of those relics serve a purpose, as the other 11? do not serve a purpose anymore, or have had a new "skirmish" weapon come up out of SOA and make it the red headed step child...

id also like to see some kind of distinction between Bow/ Gun relic due to they both have the 3x hidden dmg effect proc @13.3% @level 99/119.

i dont feel that with jishun's radiance being the way it is, bow deserves the "3x" hidden effect anymore, because now a relic gun is completely worthless in the eyes of any rng...

but then again rng has become pretty usless in a group these days,

the only time that the -30 / -40 enimity was useful was when SOA first came out , for delve, now that you have changed the system rng isnt as "flashy" and any job can be use, i applaude you for that BTW.

but you still took a bite out of every relic users life, only to throw them a "easy" and "random" alternative weapon from skirmish...

i feel like relics need to be looked at again, and make them useful again...

why make one when i can spend random amounts of time and gil trading stones to an npc and hoping for an augment?...

[Ritsuka]

Kannagi needs to have acc put on it i think. Would be nice :) make it stronger too.

[ValronXI]

237 views and 3 responses...

no one here is going to chime in?...

[Ritsuka]

prob cause they dont have one :)

[Ulth]

Well I disagree that Aegis and Ochain shouldn't have 119 versions. Even if their normal abilities don't improve they could use the 112 shield skill that other 119 shields get. Instruments I don't feel as strongly about needing a 119 version since no instruments seem to have ilvl which is fine since bard can swap them in and out with no penalty anyway.

Other than that all relic weapons could use a boost. Most mythic weapons too. I would also care about Empyrean if they added a way to get heavy metal plates that wasn't horrible. It would be nice if some of the one handed R/M/E weapons were able to work as offhand weapons, katana especially. R/M/E katanas are the worst. Nagi has to be the least useful mythic weapon ever with the worst mythic weaponskill.

Mythic aftermath 3 could also use some adjustment. It should be able to overwrite itself. And the bonus should be switched from occasionally attacks twice or thrice to enhances double attack and triple attack. That way it would affect both hands of jobs that dual wield and warriors wouldn't have to worry about their high amount of double attack making them attack thrice less.

[machini]

Well I disagree that Aegis and Ochain shouldn't have 119 versions. Even if their normal abilities don't improve they could use the 112 shield skill that other 119 shields get. Instruments I don't feel as strongly about needing a 119 version since no instruments seem to have ilvl which is fine since bard can swap them in and out with no penalty anyway.

Other than that all relic weapons could use a boost. Most mythic weapons too. I would also care about Empyrean if they added a way to get heavy metal plates that wasn't horrible. It would be nice if some of the one handed R/M/E weapons were able to work as offhand weapons, katana especially. R/M/E katanas are the worst. Nagi has to be the least useful mythic weapon ever with the worst mythic weaponskill.

Mythic aftermath 3 could also use some adjustment. It should be able to overwrite itself. And the bonus should be switched from occasionally attacks twice or thrice to enhances double attack and triple attack. That way it would affect both hands of jobs that dual wield and warriors wouldn't have to worry about their high amount of double attack making them attack thrice less.

At one point, iirc, the devs stated that Aegis and Ochain will never ilvl as they are effectively ilvl 150 with the metric they use to assign that.

I do agree that Mythic Aftermath needs adjustment. It should apply to both hands, at least. Probably also be considered DA/TA.

[Ulth]

Well they actually only said Ochain was 150 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36018-possible-oversight-with-the-new-ilvl-system?p=461098&highlight=ochain+item+level#post461098). Aegis at this point can only help with magic, because your shield skill with it is so low the blocking rate is basically at the floor on high level targets. Priwen with reprisal up actually blocks better than Ochain, but really Ochain is still better overall because of the recast on reprisal. Also if you have a Burtgang, I think switching shields removes aftermath. Anyway this is sort of the point of the thread. The metric on which 119 was made originally has changed as ilvl hasn't gone up, but there are more 119 items that are far more powerful than the original 119 items.

[machini]

I have a 119 Terpsichore, I am regularly annoyed at how great all the other daggers are that take 1/10000th of the effort to obtain that a fresh 99 can get within an hour. I understand your suffering.

[Ulth]

I don't actually have pld even unlocked. I do have Vajra though. It's special bonus does put it head and tails above other 119 daggers even with its low base damage. I just don't like that these weapons of myth and legend have to come with draw backs when their special bonuses should just be icing on the cake for all the hard work you put into it.

[kaerin]

All relics outside aegis and g horn are bad. They all need updated. And aegis needs to be 119.

[machini]

All relics outside aegis and g horn are bad. They all need updated. And aegis needs to be 119.

This is gonna be extremely unpopular to say it, and I'm probably gonna get mass reported again for saying it, but at this point I think people need to accept that relics are nothing special anymore.

In a typical two hour dynamis session I can come out with 500 to 600 currency via doing Dreamland Dynamis as DNC/nosub, sticking to JA procs, and using a Chaac Belt to give everything TH1. Between the TH1, the white procs, and the sheer high speed at which I can kill things, 500 is pretty easy. Personal high is just over 700 currency.

Assuming 500 as a lower bound, that's 250 currency per hour. It takes 18,000 currency, roughly, to make a relic. That's 72 hours of Dynamis as a lower bound. So in somewhere between 60 to 72 hours, I can make any relic in the game.

Compare the requirements to making a relic, versus making a mythic or an empyrean weapon. Mythics have much, much, much higher requirements to even start, and both mythics and empyreans have much, much, much higher requirements to get to 119.

I do think that it is wrong that all the relics but Aegis and Gjallarhorn are so crappy compared to things a fresh 99 in sparks gear can get in an hour or two. Sure, they have their own special WSes, but how good are those WSes actually in use when very few people even bother chaining? Or when the Empyrean WSes are unlockable.

Relics should be buffed. Relic should be the weakest of the three, and, in my biased, personal opinion, mythics should be the strongest since their very name is mythic. But mythic and empyrean should still be significantly stronger than relic, and, again, in my not unbiased opinion, mythics should be the best weapons in the game. For the amount of time and effort that goes into making a mythic, seeing it be outperformed by something that is not RME is extremely frustrating.

[Ulth]

Agreed, Mythic weapons should be indisputably the best hand tailored to the one job that can use them. However it is worth mentioning that there is no mythic bow, shield, or instrument. Which possibly explains why instruments and shields are the only relics and empyrean weapons worth making. Also while mythic weapons should be the best there is no reason why relic and empyrean can't be the best off hand. Even though it would probably only help nin, blu, dnc, and thf.

[Bluestar2kx]

Any chance these are going to be re-visited in upcoming patches?

mainly, Gun relic, could say bow too but... lets not go there right now

im open to debate on this too. i just feel that relics are now becoming jokes with the new skirmish weapons augments available...

In some peoples eyes (maybe more), I think your right. But not everyone.

One thought I had to fix this was, have an upgrade path that links to a new weapon ID in FFXI's system, so it doesn't use the old relic codes and ID's.
(I'm just going off my experience with skyrims creator since I know nothing about FFXIs, so a shot in the dark on some assumptions here^^)

You do a small quest to gather upgrade items, much like the current one, and trade in your old weapon.
That weapon is technically "destroyed" as it uses old code lines and ID, and in return, you get a new skirmish grade weapon with the same name (maybe with II at the end for differentiating it?) thats augmentable with skirmish code lines, and a new weapon ID, the new weapon has slightly upgraded base stats (slightly better dmg/atk/acc) that we see on the older ones, and of course, the same augment slots as the alluvions, and links to the same texture files as the old relics so it looks the same, but functions better.

What that quest gathering should involve, idk. Knowing SE, something annoying to get, maybe HP balyd and some type of skirmish item, a KI from mellidopt wings maybe that you get from lorissa (I think thats her name), take that item to the taru in adoulin, and you got a new weapon.

Let's say for example, 300 HP balyd, thats roughly 10.5m, the average price of getting it to 119 now.
And let's say 8 mellidopt wings get you the KI from the NPC.

One note however, is assuming, the weapon effects are linked from a separate ID line that can be given to a different weapon, it would obviously keep the extra/hidden effects such as stat boosts, dmg, and additional effects. If that isn't possible however, either a new effect of the same type with new Id's could be created and given to the new weapons, or they could be compensated in other manners, such as higher base stats then average and/or modifiers to the underlying damage calculations (weapon rank/fstr/pdif) to increase dps to be similar scale to the older weapons.

This would also allow the weapons to finally be used in offhand at full power, as if I'm not mistaken, skirmish weapons can be used off hand and give the bonus effects from their augmentations no? (I think some other weapons can as well even if it only applies to that hand)

[ValronXI]

In some peoples eyes (maybe more), I think your right. But not everyone.

One thought I had to fix this was, have an upgrade path that links to a new weapon ID in FFXI's system, so it doesn't use the old relic codes and ID's.
(I'm just going off my experience with skyrims creator since I know nothing about FFXIs, so a shot in the dark on some assumptions here^^)

You do a small quest to gather upgrade items, much like the current one, and trade in your old weapon.
That weapon is technically "destroyed" as it uses old code lines and ID, and in return, you get a new skirmish grade weapon with the same name (maybe with II at the end for differentiating it?) thats augmentable with skirmish code lines, and a new weapon ID, the new weapon has slightly upgraded base stats (slightly better dmg/atk/acc) that we see on the older ones, and of course, the same augment slows as the alluvions, and links to the same texture files as the old relics so it looks the same, but functions better.

What that quest gathering should involve, idk. Knowing SE, something annoying to get, maybe HP balyd and some type of skirmish item, a KI from mellidopt wings maybe that you get from lorissa (I think thats her name), take that item to the taru in adoulin, and you got a new weapon.

Let's say for example, 300 HP balyd, thats roughly 10.5m, the average price of getting it to 119 now.
And let's say 8 mellidopt wings get you the KI from the NPC.

One note however, is assuming, the weapon effects are linked from a separate ID line that can be given to a different weapon, it would obviously keep the extra/hidden effects such as stat boosts, dmg, and additional effects. If that isn't possible however, either a new effect of the same type with new Id's could be created and given to the new weapons, or they could be compensated in other manners, such as higher base stats then average and/or modifiers to the underlying damage calculations (weapon rank/fstr/pdif) to increase dps to be similar scale to the older weapons.

This would also allow the weapons to finally be used in offhand at full power, as if I'm not mistaken, skirmish weapons can be used off hand and give the bonus effects from their augmentations no? (I think some other weapons can as well even if it only applies to that hand)

this is an amazing idea

[machini]

That's a horrible idea. I put a considerable amount of time, effort, and gil getting a 119 mythic, and I don't want to turn around and have to throw another 100 million gil into it for augments.

A better solution would be simply to increase the item levels of RME above all other items in the game, with stats to match. Maybe relics 122, Empyrean 123, and mythic 124, for example. That would affect the average ilvl of the user, which would affect hit rate, evasion rate, and a bunch of other things, and put them ahead of other weapons. The problem there then becomes people lose interest in new content because RME is clearly better. They'd also need a boost to their WS DMG modifier. Probably bring it up to +40% at least.

[Bluestar2kx]

That's a horrible idea. I put a considerable amount of time, effort, and gil getting a 119 mythic, and I don't want to turn around and have to throw another 100 million gil into it for augments.

A better solution would be simply to increase the item levels of RME above all other items in the game, with stats to match. Maybe relics 122, Empyrean 123, and mythic 124, for example. That would affect the average ilvl of the user, which would affect hit rate, evasion rate, and a bunch of other things, and put them ahead of other weapons. The problem there then becomes people lose interest in new content because RME is clearly better. They'd also need a boost to their WS DMG modifier. Probably bring it up to +40% at least.

I think thats a much worse idea honestly, it would create an imbalance and would nullify skirmish weapons, as well as change the balance of a lot of events. I want a balance.
There's no obligation to augment your weapons. It would be no different then augmenting your standard skirmish weapons that a lot of people use anyway. It uses the same system so it's quite fair.

SE has already stated they won't increase the item level (less they change their mind at some point, or already have and i didn't catch the post^^), so I don't see that happening.

I think this is a very balanced method, it benefits both sides equally, by using the same systems already in place to augment other weapons that people commonly use. But I do agree, the slight boost to the base stats should include a WS dmg enhancement boost over what they already do, 40% seems a very fair enhancement, though 35% would likely be the realistic point SE would do. But I don't think it would matter in terms of function if SE left it at the current 30%.

[machini]

You say "there's no obligation to augment your weapons". Isn't the whole point of adding the augmentation to allow RME to reclaim their rightful place at the top of the weapon foodchain?

God almighty.

[Ulth]

Random augments on R/M/E weapons is a horrible idea. The reason it works for the skirmish weapons is because they are not rare. R/M/E weapons are rare so any possible augments to them should be absolute. That being said I think they should just change the stats for the 119 versions. 119 was still pretty new when they made R/M/E 119, and they set the bar too low. Although I wouldn't be opposed to doing some sort of Adoulin quests to keep my dagger the best of the best. However it should be more epic then just talking to the taru at the inventor's coalition. It should involve more dead people like in the previous quests. Running all over the wilds of Ulbuka to have your weapon imbued with the powers of the original 12 house founders. I doubt the developers want to do all that work though. It's a lot easier to just change some numbers on the current 119 weapons to increase base damage, attack, accuracy, and main attribute of its relevant weaponskill.

I should add that upgrading them with HP-Bayld is also a bad idea. People making Ergon weapons are already have a hard time with the lack of supply.

Increasing their item level is also a bad idea. Then people will ask for other gear to be that item level and then that item level becomes the new norm and R/M/E weapons are weak for that item level now. Increasing the weaponskill damage for their specific weaponskill is a good idea though. Relic weapons were already at 40%, so were you saying they should be 40% across the board for each weapon? That would be a 10% boost for mythic and a 40% boost for empy. I know I'd make a Twashtar if that WSD worked from the offhand.

Certain mythic weaponskill could also use an adjustment. Blade: Kamu comes to mind, but they also shouldn't have nerfed Mandalic stab when they nerfed Rudra's storm. The attack penalty on Drakesbane is unnecessary too. There are probably more, but I don't know the ins and outs of every job.

[Bluestar2kx]

You say "there's no obligation to augment your weapons". Isn't the whole point of adding the augmentation to allow RME to reclaim their rightful place at the top of the weapon foodchain?

God almighty.

I never said anything about making them the best of the best.
My point was simply to bring them up to the standards, and augmentable features (while potentially removing limitations inherent in current RME weapons) used by skirmish weapons in a simple fashion SE could do before november.

There is no obligation to augment them, plenty of people run around with neither skirmish nor RME weapons, and use weapons from unity, and high tier battlefields instead, and do fine.

[machini]

I never said anything about making them the best of the best.

If you do not think that mythics should be the best weapons in the game, we have nothing further to discuss, as you don't understand mythics.
If you think that the way RME should be buffed is via skirmish-style augmenting, we have nothing further to discuss, as you don't understand why that is a horrible idea.

[Cowardlybabooon]

Admittedly I didn't read all the posts, but my thoughts are that SE needs to give us a lot to work on before they stop the updates. My proposition would be for a new REM level weapon that is equal to the original difficulty of relics or mythics and stays king due to no more updates.

[Bluestar2kx]

If you do not think that mythics should be the best weapons in the game, we have nothing further to discuss, as you don't understand mythics.
If you think that the way RME should be buffed is via skirmish-style augmenting, we have nothing further to discuss, as you don't understand why that is a horrible idea.

I guess we don't.
No sense wasting time.

Hopefully, despite a few objections so far, SE considers the idea. FFXI is going to be on awhile with little content increases, they'll have to do something that can work long term to carry players.

[machini]

Random augments on R/M/E weapons is a horrible idea. The reason it works for the skirmish weapons is because they are not rare. R/M/E weapons are rare so any possible augments to them should be absolute. That being said I think they should just change the stats for the 119 versions. 119 was still pretty new when they made R/M/E 119, and they set the bar too low. Although I wouldn't be opposed to doing some sort of Adoulin quests to keep my dagger the best of the best. However it should be more epic then just talking to the taru at the inventor's coalition. It should involve more dead people like in the previous quests. Running all over the wilds of Ulbuka to have your weapon imbued with the powers of the original 12 house founders. I doubt the developers want to do all that work though. It's a lot easier to just change some numbers on the current 119 weapons to increase base damage, attack, accuracy, and main attribute of its relevant weaponskill.

I should add that upgrading them with HP-Bayld is also a bad idea. People making Ergon weapons are already have a hard time with the lack of supply.

Increasing their item level is also a bad idea. Then people will ask for other gear to be that item level and then that item level becomes the new norm and R/M/E weapons are weak for that item level now. Increasing the weaponskill damage for their specific weaponskill is a good idea though. Relic weapons were already at 40%, so were you saying they should be 40% across the board for each weapon? That would be a 10% boost for mythic and a 40% boost for empy. I know I'd make a Twashtar if that WSD worked from the offhand.

Certain mythic weaponskill could also use an adjustment. Blade: Kamu comes to mind, but they also shouldn't have nerfed Mandalic stab when they nerfed Rudra's storm. The attack penalty on Drakesbane is unnecessary too. There are probably more, but I don't know the ins and outs of every job.

I don't know if a +40% bonus to Empyrean WS DMG on the Empyrean Weapons themselves is warranted, but something definitely needs to be done. Making the Empyrean WSes unlockable was a good idea, but they forgot the entire reason for the Empyrean Weapons was the WSes. Just as the Mythic Weapons should be the best possible weapon in the game for their job, the Empyrean Weapons should be the best possible weapons in the game for their Weapon Skills.

[Ulth]

Well the 99 versions gave +20 of the attribute the weaponskill used. The 119 version it didn't go up any and is still 20, and 20 attribute points on a weapon is pretty standard for 119. Another problem is a large portion of a DD's damage is weaponskill damage, and the relic bonus of doing triple damage, and the empy aftermath of double damage does not work on weaponskills.

Back before the one hand update, Mandau was actually pretty good for thf because a large portion of our damage was still white damage. After the update the +15 dex and higher base damage made the shark knife blow Mandau out of the water. I was something like 10 100 bills away from finishing it too when the update happened, so I got it made just in time to put it in my mog house and never use it.

[machini]

Something that particularly disappointed me was the collect 300 Pluton/Beitetsu/Boulders to do the upgrade to 119. I do agree that part of the problem is that at the time the RME were updated to 119 there was less power creep, so they have fallen somewhat behind where they should be. I think a better upgrade path would have been magian trials: kill this many of this to upgrade to 106, then 113, then 119. Maybe another stage or two after 119 that upgrade it further, that require delve clears or something.

[Ulth]

The new weapons from Sinister reign and Escha Ru'Aun make skirmish weapons look like cheap pieces of junk. And so the gap between mythic weapons and weapons that just drop from doing an event once shrinks even more.

[machini]

It's almost as if SE just doesn't care anymore. Considering how long it took them to even 119 RME, that's probably an accurate assessment.