Please don't nerf beastmaster

[Olor]

I see a JP mod has posted about beastmaster in response to complaints on the JP board.

I can't read it obviously - just the bad chrome translation - but I really hope the devs talk to all parts of the community before nerfing beastmaster.

This is the first time since I restarted playing that BST has ever been wanted in a party. I really don't want to go back to being a crap job. Also, I can't read the complaints but I hope the devs consider how many good augments it takes to actually be that useful as a BST.

Please strengthen other jobs rather than nerfing BST. I'm having fun playing my favourite job for the first time since I started playing this game. I know pets have some benefits, but other jobs still have tons of utility.

[Mnejing]

Read BG's translation (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-%28NO-DISCUSSION%29?p=6468108#post6468108), only nerf is self-sc'ing pets.

[Olor]

Read BG's translation (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-%28NO-DISCUSSION%29?p=6468108#post6468108), only nerf is self-sc'ing pets.

That's still a pretty huge nerf tbh but better than it could have been... I don't understand the whining - it's been like 12 years of nothing but SAM ... can't a crap tier job get a break once in awhile?

Also its really sad that we don't get told this stuff at the same time as the JP players.

I also think what's missing from the conversation is that the limitations placed on BST pets mean that BST is not super useful in normal, non pet parties. Only allowing certain rolls to benefit pets for example (and only pets) means that we don't get buffed unless it is a pet only party. Tactics either have to take advantage of the unique uses of pets, or BST is not really that good.

So yeah, people will shout for BST if people are using BST at all, because pet jobs work best in pet parties. That's because of how they are designed. People complaining about shouts for BST are basically saying they want the job to be useless. Cause the only way people are using BST is in BST heavy parties.

[Tidis]

My God it's like a word for word clone of the "don't nerf Rudra's" thing.

But then how will this conclude? Will BST stay strong or be nerfed to the ground like Rudra's.

[Draylo-]

BST needs to be nerfed, sorry.

[Railer]

Beastmaster is fine the way it is.

[Olor]

Will BST stay strong or be nerfed to the ground like Rudra's.

Rudras is just fine... its still super powerful. I don't think it needed to be nerfed but saying it was "nerfed to the ground" is a bit of an exaggeration.


BST needs to be nerfed, sorry.

Why? It's still way less powerful than most DDs.

[Ataraxia]

Rudra's Storm was Nerf to ground because if your a THF and a DNC than you would know this. Rudra's storm is now 5x damage with low TP mod but before the nerf it was 6x damage and high TP mod. Than I said BST was next on the list now people hating the job because it get too many spotlight.

10 years running no one care about DNC because it just suck. When thief was taken down than so was DNC and they only have a spotlight for 2 months of being able to shine than it was gone after that. So at this point if your not a mythic dagger DNC than your not going to do good dmg. So it's fair to the elite and while casual player who doesn't have a mythic sit in the dark corner.

THF no matter how much they nerf this job it don't matter because TH always win in the end. People all about getting their gear fast so TH is the way to go.

10 years running BST was all alone and no one care. So when people started to care and band wagon it they wanna nerf it? It's no different when people band wagon thief and tons of people making mythic dagger for it. I like BST job because it is a fun job and If they ever nerf this job than FFXI will be boring and some Escha NM are not friendly toward job that aren't pet.

[dasva]

Honestly I doubt this will change too much other than some specific things... like popping plouton/perifiden wont be super easy with 2 bsts. Or a bst on his down doing some skillchaining like with lizard. But usually with multiple pets/dds it's hard doing it on purpose especially since the tendency is to use single charge moves which only have 1 lvl 1 property so not the greatest chance to skillchain. I'd imagine the lvl 3 and maybe lvl 2 property ones will stay the same since the pet can't self skillchain like that without unleash

Wonder when SE will ever nerf all the sam bandwagoning... who am I kidding hasso buff!

[Draylo-]

SAM is a weak DD atm... It's not even a bandwagon anymore. Do a /sea all for sam on your server and then do a /sea all for BST.

[machini]

Rudra's Storm was Nerf to ground because if your a THF and a DNC than you would know this. Rudra's storm is now 5x damage with low TP mod but before the nerf it was 6x damage and high TP mod. Than I said BST was next on the list now people hating the job because it get too many spotlight.

10 years running no one care about DNC because it just suck. When thief was taken down than so was DNC and they only have a spotlight for 2 months of being able to shine than it was gone after that. So at this point if your not a mythic dagger DNC than your not going to do good dmg. So it's fair to the elite and while casual player who doesn't have a mythic sit in the dark corner.

THF no matter how much they nerf this job it don't matter because TH always win in the end. People all about getting their gear fast so TH is the way to go.

10 years running BST was all alone and no one care. So when people started to care and band wagon it they wanna nerf it? It's no different when people band wagon thief and tons of people making mythic dagger for it. I like BST job because it is a fun job and If they ever nerf this job than FFXI will be boring and some Escha NM are not friendly toward job that aren't pet.

DNC is actually doing just fine. Rudra's Storm getting nerfed really didn't do much to DNC at all. I'd say more, but I don't want butthurt SAMs to get DNC nerfed.

[bazookatooth]

SAM is a weak DD atm... It's not even a bandwagon anymore. Do a /sea all for sam on your server and then do a /sea all for BST.

Not sure if serious...

The game population is shrinking and content is becoming more solo friendly. It would be weird if the job built specifically for playing solo didn't see an increase in people playing it under those conditions. My Sam blows my pets out of the water damage wise, using gear that took a lot less effort to obtain. But I can't solo a lot of things on Sam, so you'll see me on BST most of the time when I'm not in a group event. And don't even get me started on Magic Burst Damage.

[Olor]

The game population is shrinking and content is becoming more solo friendly. It would be weird if the job built specifically for playing solo didn't see an increase in people playing it under those conditions.

THIS.... that's what people whining about BST don't get - BST being decent is *really good* for the game at this point. It means people who are just returning without perfect gear can do things by themselves or together. And if they get better BST gear they can do more things.

Other jobs are better when you have support - when you have more than 2 or 3 people. But with the game where it is in it's lifespan - why would you want to nerf a job that lets people play the game? One of my LSes has 4 people in it. If we had to wait till we had well geared support/DD etc to do content we would never get there because you can't get gear without a stepping stone. With me as BST and another player as BST the other two people can be NIN and THF and we don't have to worry so much about no WHM or BRD or w/e.

And no one in the group really wants to play WHM or BRD... or w/e so... without BST people would be stuck playing on jobs they don't like at all so we could play. That's not good for the game.

[Singforu]

The reason BST needs to be nerfed is because pets shouldn't do more damage than other DD main.

[Vold]

Coming from someone who's common job is not BST, I say good for BST. The job has been in the dumps since it's release, and what else is new here? X job gets buff, x amount of people rage about it because they suddenly find it harder to get invited to groups. It's been going on for 13 years and it doesn't appear to be easing up anytime soon because SE doesn't understand or can't implement job balance. It's just one bandaid after another, and everyone waits in line for their job's turn.

I expect BST pet damage to be addressed, and it won't be because anyone here convinced them or begged enough to keep BST in the dumps so people don't have to level it for a change. It'll be because there is no way they intentionally made them as powerful as they are. It was a goof and they will fix it in the eyes of most. To BST players, it will be anything but a fix. They can fully expect to be unwanted afterwards "oh you don't do as much damage as real DD, access denied. Bring one of 6 useful job/job instead"

But sure, let's keep preaching how it's not right that BST is desired for a change.

[bazookatooth]

The reason BST needs to be nerfed is because pets shouldn't do more damage than other DD main.

Well, they don't do more damage than DD mains, so I guess the nerf already happened. Congratulations!... Unless of course, the "DD main" is horrible at his / her job.

[Kensagaku]

The reason BST needs to be nerfed is because pets shouldn't do more damage than other DD main.

They really don't. I bounce between about four mains, with BST as one of them, and without some serious dedication to the random augments god your damage is going to be lower than a dedicated DD, and at best equal to or just above. With proper support (something that BST can't get aside from COR rolls and mob debuffs, meaning no bard songs, pro/shell, haste, etc) a good DD can easily outdo a BST. If you're talking fodder, that means nothing, but on many bosses you'll see maybe at most 2/3 of the damage output of a real DD from bandwagon BSTs (I'd wager closer to 1/2) and drawing even on a dedicated BST.

The reason that people flip out at BST right now is "omg 12000 AoE damage!!! Look at that screenshot!" in rapid succession. Three quick charges and, with a proper level of grinding and item selection, ten seconds per charge to replenish. Yes, that is fast. But then you have to account for the content (you'll quickly see those numbers drop in current endgame, except for niche situations), the fact that those ten second cooldowns will come back at you quickly and leave you with gaps in which you do very little white damage, and the fact that a DD with the proper support BST can't get will be WSing roughly every five seconds and for a total of damage that either meets or exceeds that a BST can do. Then you have to consider costs of healing; you can't toss a cure spell at a pet, you have to either use Reward with its cooldown, or burn gil on Dawn Mulsums. At 2k/Theta (RoV) or 20k/Mulsum (at least on Valefor), anything moderate in length, especially events, can burn a hole in your wallet over time. Sure, money's easy enough to get, but how many non-pet jobs are required to spend gil to heal themselves?

So yeah, BST is in a proper place right now, especially with the game becoming so solo-friendly as it nears the end of new content.

[Draylo-]

Not true actually, with GEO debuff and cor roll they can out damage most DD atm, even with just GEO debuff. Using ready every 10s or so is that powerful, especially with a NM that spams debuffs on players. Also the whole "don't nerf bst or people won't get things done" is really silly when you can solo on a lot of jobs, not just BST, thats just the one that takes barely any skill to do.

[saevel]

Not true actually, with GEO debuff and cor roll they can out damage most DD atm, even with just GEO debuff. Using ready every 10s or so is that powerful, especially with a NM that spams debuffs on players. Also the whole "don't nerf bst or people won't get things done" is really silly when you can solo on a lot of jobs, not just BST, thats just the one that takes barely any skill to do.

BST is broke as f*ck right now, especially if you combine them with a COR and GEO. 12~14K ability spam with base stats higher then fully geared 119 melee's. A completely disposable, hate free method of dealing extremely high amounts of damage to target NM's without needing a healer or tank. It would be like if SAM could do 12~14K fudo's, instantly refill it's HP whenever it dies and has 30~50% DT. This wouldn't be a big issue except with Ready being a 30s base, and BST being able to lower it further, it turns into a situation where two or more BST's can just spam TP moves non-stop and murder whatever they are fighting all while they stand safely in the back eating cookies and chilling.

And BST requiring to little skill is precisely the reason you see so many of them monopolizing everything. It's piss easy to toss a few pieces of gear and start chunking pets at things. It's always been one of those jobs that was either extremely broken or extremely useless.

[scaevola]

Why? It's still way less powerful than most DDs.

Even if that were true, surely you don't need an explanation as to why a disposable pet shouldn't have a damage output competitive with an actual player? If pet + BST have higher DPS than a solo DD, that would maybe be fine, but that's not how people are using BSTs.



The game population is shrinking and content is becoming more solo friendly. It would be weird if the job built specifically for playing solo didn't see an increase in people playing it under those conditions. My Sam blows my pets out of the water damage wise, using gear that took a lot less effort to obtain. But I can't solo a lot of things on Sam, so you'll see me on BST most of the time when I'm not in a group event. And don't even get me started on Magic Burst Damage.

No, SAM really is pretty mediocre right now, if not outright weak; it's got all the problems of WAR and DRK, just to a less extreme degree.

I've shelved mine; why bother with my SAM when my DNC is doing more damage, and is, well, a DNC?

[bazookatooth]

BST is broke as f*ck right now, especially if you combine them with a COR and GEO. 12~14K ability spam with base stats higher then fully geared 119 melee's.



Meanwhile on sam, I'm pumping out 10-20k Fudos every 2 seconds against the same mob with nonstop 20k + light chains in between them and black mages are magic bursting limitless 30k tier II spells off it non-stop. Thieves and dancers are still pumping out 30k Dark skillchains and rangers and summoners aren't having any problems killing things hate / risk free. Do you even play this game? Seriously...


It would be like if SAM could do 12~14K fudo's...

They can, but much faster / more often than a Pet can.


instantly refill it's HP

"Cure" says HI! Reward is on a long timer.



whenever it dies

Again, note the timer: http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Call_Beast



and has 30~50% DT.

You can easily reach 50% DT- on every job in the game.



This wouldn't be a big issue except with Ready being a 30s base, and BST being able to lower it further, it turns into a situation where two or more BST's can just spam TP moves non-stop and murder whatever they are fighting

So like every other DD in the game except on a longer timer?....



all while they stand safely in the back eating cookies and chilling.

So just like summoner, RNG and every mage job in the game pretty much?...


And BST requiring to little skill is precisely the reason you see so many of them monopolizing everything.

Those people you see beating meaningful content on BST have millions, if not hundreds of millions in gear. The DT- stat on that acro / taeon set comes from Dusk orbs, which are selling for roughly 8 mil a stack on my server and you're lucky if you get the max on one piece per stack. Realistic estimate, you're looking at 20-40 mil worth of stones to get DT-4% on all 5 pieces just for your TP set. You also need a magic attack set and an attack / ready set if you want to be any good.

[Railer]

Well put Bazookatooth, thank you it needed to be said.

[machini]

This is seriously just Rudra's Storm all over again.

"WAH THIS JOB IS DOING GOOD I DON'T LIKE IT"

"Uh, you do realize that it's not just this job, it's this job using JAs and buffed by this other job and this third job?"

"WAH MATH IS HARD WHAT DO YOU MEAN SPIKE DAMAGE IS A THING"

[machini]

I mean, I was fighting Hurkan earlier. I was doing nearly non-stop self five step double darknesses, and every minute and a half was closing with that second darkness for 99999 damage. If Hurkan has roughly 1.25 million HP, which I think is what he has, based on how quickly I'm killing him I should be doing roughly 4kDPS.

Do *I* need to be nerfed?

I mean, just ignore the fact I had four trusts buffing me.
And I'm a mythic DNC keeping AM3 up.
At attack speed cap.
With a SaveTP+400 Reive weapon offhand
With Ionis on for 100 more SaveTP.
And otherwise I have just about the best possible equipment in the game I could possibly have for DNC.

So no, I don't need to be nerfed. Because it takes four trusts and a shit ton of expensive and/or hard to get gear for me to be able to put out that level of damage.

But people don't see that. They don't think about the fact that I have 10/+ buffs on me, gear specifically tailored to doing the most damage in that specific context (a WKR) as possible.

All they see is the frilly little lace-wearing "shit job" player is doing insanely high damage. I was outthreating a goddamn mythic SAM the other day in a WKR.

I really hate to say this, but what people need to start being told is "git gud". Seriously. People have no idea how the game mechanics work, have no idea how to gear, they just say "I'm a SAM and I'm a DD job and a super buffed optimally built gear set wearing BST is doing more damage than I am".

[machini]

Math is off a bit for HP, I think. I still manage to kill Hurkan in about ten minutes.

[dasva]

Are the sams getting mad that some job is doing almost as much dmg as they do unbuffed again?

[Zarchery]

So it's BST time to shine I guess? Every job gets some brief time in the limelight it seems.

[Olor]

All of these arguments won't matter in the least. It has already been decided in the Japanese forums. Whatever we say here does not matter.

This is probably true and it makes me really angry.

[scaevola]

stuff about supergeared jobs being good

I mean, you're not wrong, but you get that the bar for BSTs doing the kind of stuff they are is waaaaaaay lower than this, right? Some passable Pet: MAB augs, charmer's merlin, ASA pants?

[Draylo-]

Are the sams getting mad that some job is doing almost as much dmg as they do unbuffed again?

You know that isn't true.

[machini]

I mean, you're not wrong, but you get that the bar for BSTs doing the kind of stuff they are is waaaaaaay lower than this, right? Some passable Pet: MAB augs, charmer's merlin, ASA pants?

Yeah, I mean, that's why all those BSTs I see doing pet burns in Escha have tens of millions of gil worth of gear and require COR buffs.

[Malthar]

I'm a career bst with an Aymur. I also have a well geared nin and a mythic sam. I am willing to bet that I can out dd any top notch mythic bst that has every and all cor rolls they can get, +1 food, and with geo debuffs on a mob using only my non mythic nin with max haste, max dd rolls, bard buffs, geo buffs, smn buffs, etc...

Draylo! I challenge you! :-D

[bazookatooth]

I mean, you're not wrong, but you get that the bar for BSTs doing the kind of stuff they are is waaaaaaay lower than this, right? Some passable Pet: MAB augs, charmer's merlin, ASA pants?

What exactly are beasts beating using these "passable Pet: MAB augs" augments? I'm curious as to what important content you think is being trivialized with fireball and cursed sphere. Fair warning, you're probably going to answer wrong and look bad for it.

And by the way, "passable Pet: MAB augs" aren't cheap either.

[dasva]

You know that isn't true.

You clearly haven't seen the average bsts. But yes I was being a tad hyperbolic. Would be more accurate to say a low/mid buff sam as that's what it would take to get similar ws numbers and frequency from sam. Any capped pdif, attack speed, acc sam with competent healers to keep him going should decimate even the pimpests of bsts going all out for dmg with the best buffs/debuffs for them

Also to your debuff situation... yes some debuffs hurt the player slightly more. But guess what some debuffs that barely effect the player completely destroy jugs largely because we have no reliably way to cure them while players do. Petrified? Yep 0 dmg until it wears naturally. Amensia? Well there goes 99% of your dmg until it weards. Sleep? Basically same thing as petrified but at least AoE dmg will wake you. Doom? It might as well be death spam. Curse? Again huge debuff that isn't coming off until your pet dies. What do jugs kind of shrug off now that players don't? Silence (so do most dds), paralyze and slow? Nothing that can't be cured quickly nor anything that cuts your dps as dramatically as the other stuff did jugs

[dasva]

What exactly are beasts beating using these "passable Pet: MAB augs" augments? I'm curious as to what important content you think is being trivialized with fireball and cursed sphere. Fair warning, you're probably going to answer wrong and look bad for it.

And by the way, "passable Pet: MAB augs" aren't cheap either.

I just recently used a bunch of snoworbs+2... 4.2 mil a stack over here on shiva. Trying to just get 20+ of any one specific stat usually took about 1 stack. So even if you say you get some decent macc ones before MAB and just keep them since it is liked higher up you are still likely looking at a good 15-20 mil easy... and for those guys really pushing their bsts on hard content they should probably throw at least some duskorbs (650-700k each here) at it too since you spend so much time in ready sets and having your dmg just double 2-3 seconds every 10 is pretty disasterous on hard content especially when you are already riding reward timers

[machini]

I really think this is another case of "people who don't play a job and have no idea how the job works get pissy that people who do play the job and know how it works know how to milk it for every drop of damage they can".

[scaevola]

Yeah, I mean, that's why all those BSTs I see doing pet burns in Escha have tens of millions of gil worth of gear and require COR buffs.

They have that because they already had the means to before going on BST to begin with, not because they need it. I picked it up and rolled with the first pet MAB augs I got from NQ/+1 stones on the Acro I wasn't using (I don't dual box), and while I don't get Sath/Falkirk's results it's still pretty stupid.


And by the way, "passable Pet: MAB augs" aren't cheap either.

They are cheaper than a Mythic, which was what Ivlilla's comment was all about.

[bazookatooth]

They have that because they already had the means to before going on BST to begin with, not because they need it. I picked it up and rolled with the first pet MAB augs I got from NQ/+1 stones on the Acro I wasn't using (I don't dual box), and while I don't get Sath/Falkirk's results it's still pretty stupid.

And what are you getting these "stupid" results on with your MAB gear pray tell?

I'd also like to point out how odd it is that you are complaining about bst out damaging DD jobs, but seem to be completely focused on magic damage augments. Shouldn't we then be comparing bsts magic damage with BLM or SCH?


They are cheaper than a Mythic, which was what Ivlilla's comment was all about.

Well by that standard, the only thing in the game that isn't cheap is an ergon weapon.

[machini]

I'm sorry, pet MAB augments cost more than 240 million gil and take more than 600 man hours to do?

[scaevola]

And what are you getting these "stupid" results on with your MAB gear pray tell?

Running around in Escha. MAB and -DT augments are giving me more AoE than a BLM with the survivability of a less-than-amazing-or-maybe-just-lazy PLD. It's dumb.

I don't think it's bad; it's a little annoying when I'm grinding silt but oh well, who cares? Reducing the single target via nerfing pet skillchains seems like a fair trade, though, which is all it sounds like they're planning on doing. I'm here to defend that decision.


I'd also like to point out how odd it is that you are complaining about bst out damaging DD jobs, but seem to be completely focused on magic damage augments. Shouldn't we then be comparing bsts magic damage with BLM or SCH?

Why?

[machini]

If you don't understand why comparing magic pet damage to melee dd damage is a bad comparison, you have fully demonstrated your lack of insight.

[scaevola]

We weren't talking about magic vs. melee; we were talking about the throughput of BST vs. a different job.

Are BLMs killing it as solo DDs now? Are SCHs self-MBing and not dying?

[Ataraxia]

DNC is actually doing just fine. Rudra's Storm getting nerfed really didn't do much to DNC at all. I'd say more, but I don't want butthurt SAMs to get DNC nerfed.

That part I already know. It's like i said earlier it only benefit DNC with mythic Dagger because they get a 30% increase in Pyrrhic Kleos. Not everyone has the gil to make over 200,000,000+ gil. It's not fair to casual player who can't afford to make mythic. If you have a LS that want your DNC in event than that's good but DNC will not get invite in shout and I don't think people want dnc on Vagary. People want job like rdm, geo, cor and bst at this point.

Since I play both job of THF and DNC i think THF is far better when your dealing with Urmahlulu T3 Escha NM. If your a mythic user than your over the top DD.

[scaevola]

That part I already know. It's like i said earlier it only benefit DNC with mythic Dagger because they get a 30% increase in Pyrrhic Kleos. Not everyone has the gil to make over 200,000,000+ gil. It's not fair to casual player who can't afford to make mythic. If you have a LS that want your DNC in event than that's good but DNC will not get invite in shout and I don't think people want dnc on Vagary. People want job like rdm, geo, cor and bst at this point.

The reason DNC doesn't get invites to Vagary has nothing to do with its damage output. It's because melee is so vulnerable on bosses (the only things that live long enough for them to be good for) that you only want one for a self-SC, and while DNC's self-SC potential is great there's no reason to use one when SAM exists.


Since I play both job of THF and DNC i think THF is far better when your dealing with Urmahlulu T3 Escha NM. If your a mythic user than your over the top DD.

On what basis? Is THF bringing something other than a 3000 TP SA Rudra's closer, which is something DNC/SAM can not only do, but do better (2k TP > Sekka > PK > Evis > Reverse > Climactic > Rudra's, or just Evis > Reverse > Clim > Rudra's)?

[machini]

Anyone who thinks DNC is not durable has not seen a DNC with capped MDT and overcapped PDT via fan dance.

There are plenty of things that will murder a DNC, just as there are plenty of things that will murder everything that's not a PLD or RUN, but DNC is capable of tanking and dealing damage at the same time.

The reason DNC doesn't get invited to things is the playerbase are full of idiots who don't understand how the job works and are incapable of following any strategy more complicated than "spam fudo"

[machini]

I've seriously had people question whether or not a mythic DNC is even capable of dealing damage. Too many people in this game are "loldnc" players. And there are few things more enjoyable than watching a SAM throw a tantrum when I out-damage and out-tank them. Which was not hard to do without the mythic, and is trivially easy to do now.

[Draylo-]

We get it, you are desperate to save BST. You don't have to defend it so hard with silly claims that anyone can see through, the devs already know the situation atm and are responding.

[machini]

We get it, you are desperate to save BST. You don't have to defend it so hard with silly claims that anyone can see through, the devs already know the situation atm and are responding.

Dude, I'm not desperate to save BST. My BST is level 15.

What I am sick and tired of is people who don't know a job, don't play a job, don't understand the job, who see a job doing well, and throw a hissy fit and get it nerfed because they're bad players.

[machini]

"oh hey this BST who has 100/+ million gil worth of gear, two different COR buffs, and GEO buff and debuff on target is outdamaging my sparks 117 SAM on 119/+ content. THIS IS NOT FAIR SAM IS THE BEST"

[machini]

I also love how you're grinding BST levels in Abyssea La Theine right now.

[bazookatooth]

Running around in Escha. MAB and -DT augments are giving me more AoE than a BLM with the survivability of a less-than-amazing-or-maybe-just-lazy PLD. It's dumb.

I don't think it's bad; it's a little annoying when I'm grinding silt but oh well, who cares? Reducing the single target via nerfing pet skillchains seems like a fair trade, though, which is all it sounds like they're planning on doing. I'm here to defend that decision.

So you're idea of ruining game balance is being better than some jobs at killing Even match monsters? /smh

Yes, BLM can blow stuff up nonstop in escha just like bst. I do it all the time. I've actually been GMd twice by JP players for hogging all the pops on BLM and BLU. You pull out healer /support trusts, throw up stoneskin, aquaveil and phalanx, put on your movement+ gear, train a bunch of mobs, engage one until your healer trust cures back whatever damage you took during the pull and then aga them all. Just like beast. There are also better camps outside escha where BLM can just run around one shotting things even better CP than BST can get in escha.




Why?

Because even if your NQ stones somehow got you near max augments, that magic damage set you described isn't gonna outparse any DD job on anything but farming fodder in escha. And even if it magically somehow did, your pet would just die without the DT- stats on your gear. You might as well say ninja is over powered because it can proc stuff in abyssea.

[Draylo-]

"oh hey this BST who has 100/+ million gil worth of gear, two different COR buffs, and GEO buff and debuff on target is outdamaging my sparks 117 SAM on 119/+ content. THIS IS NOT FAIR SAM IS THE BEST"

Except other jobs put the same amount of effort and gil into them.

[bazookatooth]

Except other jobs put the same amount of effort and gil into them.

And they do more damage.

but no, my monk, sam, thf, dnc, and rng were far cheaper to gear. My DT- set on BST cost more my SAM, MNK, THF and DNC combined. And my pet still doesn't outdamage them. It's just situationally safer. As was already stated, I'm screwed if the mob has curse, doom, break, etc.

[Draylo-]

Dude, I'm not desperate to save BST. My BST is level 15.

What I am sick and tired of is people who don't know a job, don't play a job, don't understand the job, who see a job doing well, and throw a hissy fit and get it nerfed because they're bad players.

Really seems like it man, you are posting multiple times in this thread over and over. People are allowed to give their opinion, even if its in opposition to what you think. The dev's know what they wanna do with the game. If you are implying I'm one of those people, then you are mistaken.

[Draylo-]

And they do more damage.

No they don't actually. If you mean to say in Escha that a geared to the max BST w/a tank present can't outparse over half of the DDs in the game all the while sitting back comfortably tossing pet heals, you don't know whats going on.

[bazookatooth]

No they don't actually. If you mean to say in Escha that a geared to the max BST w/a tank present can't outparse over half of the DDs in the game all the while sitting back comfortably tossing pet heals, you are delusional.

A geared to the max anything should be able to outparse half the other DDS. Why the hell would they want to build the game in a way that causes some jobs to suck no matter how well geared / played they are? That's stupid.

[Draylo-]

Okay, do I really have to spell everything out? A geared to the max BST vs geared to the max other jobs. It doesn't have to suck, it needs to just be toned down. Look at THF and what happened to them, seems SE already got the message and they are planning adjustments to BST.

[scaevola]

Because even if your NQ stones somehow got you near max augments, that magic damage set you described isn't gonna outparse any DD job on anything but farming fodder in escha. And even if it magically somehow did, your pet would just die without the DT- stats on your gear. You might as well say ninja is over powered because it can proc stuff in abyssea.

I have basic DT stats.

I can only speak from my own experience; I went with MAB augs to try it and I don't want to bother making a physical stat set since that would involve getting a whole new set and spending more money I'd prefer to save. I'm sure it'd be just as easy to get Randy going if I did.

It ended up "costing" me a couple million in opportunity (I bank my NQs) to get 10+ MAB and some DT (duskorbs are rather expensive, even for NQs, so i wasn't picky) on six pieces. If I cared enough to spend 100 million gil to get, what, 50 more MAB and 15 more DT, I'm sure I'd feel compelled to defend the job, too.

[bazookatooth]

Okay, do I really have to spell everything out? A geared to the max BST vs geared to the max other jobs. It doesn't have to suck, it needs to just be toned down. Look at THF and what happened to them, seems SE already got the message and they are planning adjustments to BST.

Why? I'm not having any problems getting invited on literally any other job right now, but DNC or PUP. Isn't that the point of balance? So that people can enjoy the content on the jobs they like? It sounds to me like you just want your favorite job to be the best. What happened with THF was stupid. it didn't do anything but piss off a bunch of THFs. It didn't balance the game in the slightest.

[bazookatooth]

I have basic DT stats.

I can only speak from my own experience; I went with MAB augs to try it and I don't want to bother making a physical stat set since that would involve getting a whole new set and spending more money I'd prefer to save. I'm sure it'd be just as easy to get Randy going if I did.

It ended up "costing" me a couple million in opportunity (I bank my NQs) to get 10+ MAB and some DT (duskorbs are rather expensive, even for NQs, so i wasn't picky) on six pieces. If I cared enough to spend 100 million gil to get, what, 50 more MAB and 15 more DT, I'm sure I'd feel compelled to defend the job, too.

And you're not going to even come close to out damaging anyone with that set, so your pretty much disproved your own theory.

[Draylo-]

BST shouldn't ever outparse a BLU, ever. That is the issue atm.

[scaevola]

And your not going to even come close to out damaging anyone with that set, so your pretty much disproved your own theory.

I would shit all over anybody who half-assed their DD set as much as I did this one.

Meanwhile, the BSTs who DO put effort into their sets are upset they can't solo VD merit battlefields after the Spur fix and nobody seems bothered by this logic.

EDIT: A little perspective.

It used to be that if a BST were going to DD, he would melee alongside his pet, and his damage would maybe be competitive with another DD that was not heavily benefiting from buffs that would not apply to the pet. We can quibble about this if you want, but bear with me.

Now, the pets' scaling is so great, and the pets themselves so powerful, that in many if not most situations it is more efficient for the BST himself to simply not melee and swap out his axes to provide more damage for his pet. Charmer's Merlin and some TP Bonus augments provide a greater benefit than the master's entire output in 119 gear.

This doesn't seem strange to you?

[bazookatooth]

I would shit all over anybody who half-assed their DD set as much as I did this one.

No, no you wouldn't. And even if you could, why should the game be balanced around people who purposely suck at their jobs?


Meanwhile, the BSTs who DO put effort into their sets are upset they can't solo VD merit battlefields after the Spur fix and nobody seems bothered by this logic.



And I don't recall anyone being upset about not being able to solo VD anything. Source? By the way, BST is supposed to be able to solo things. That's been the basis of the job since it's inception.

[scaevola]

No, no you wouldn't. And even if you could, why should the game be balanced around people who purposely suck at their jobs?

It should not. I should not be this powerful with such little effort.




And I don't recall anyone being upset about not being able to solo VD anything. Source?

I don't feel like link-hunting right now but Sath soloed every AA on VD pre-nerf.


By the way, BST is supposed to be able to solo things. That's been the basis of the job since it's inception.

So you should be able to solo things based on the core design of the job (no argument here) AND have damage competitive with top-tier DDs without giving anything up?

[Malthar]

BST shouldn't ever outparse a BLU, ever. That is the issue atm.

Seriously?! Did you really just write that?! lol
You tickle me, sir.

[Draylo-]

Malthaaaaaaaaa, you hacked the servers to power up BST didnt you?

[machini]

Once again, we see what the true problem is.

[bazookatooth]

It should not. I should not be this powerful with such little effort.

You've already demonstrated that you can't do that with little effort and that you don't even know what it takes to get there. *Mumbles* MAB sets from NQ stones...


I don't feel like link-hunting right now but Sath soloed every AA on VD pre-nerf.

Are you referring to that thread on BG where people are discussing how they solo those fights on everything from scholar to pup to red mage as well? Are you mad because one guy managed to beat them on a slightly higher setting bst? Because that doesn't sound like it affects the game. That sounds like it affects your ego. Do you want them to nerf sch and rdm and pup and nin and dnc too? Which job is allowed to be good? Just tell us so we all know what to play.


So you should be able to solo things based on the core design of the job (no argument here) AND have damage competitive with top-tier DDs without giving anything up?

You are still basing your assumptions on how the job performs on fodder in escha. BST has always been the best job in the game at soloing easy stuff. Go try it against difficult and actual relevant content that can't be soloed by any job in the game. You'll quickly find that BST isn't the best DD, it's just relatively easier to keep alive (barring anything that uses doom, break, sleep, etc. that can't be removed or at least not reliably from a pet). And if just staying alive is the problem, you can thank SE for making it so that everything has insta-death AOE damage, rendering the tank meaningless and only one viable healer, that no one wants to play for group content.

[scaevola]

You've already demonstrated that you can't do that with little effort and that you don't even know what it takes to get there. *Mumbles* MAB sets from NQ stones...

NQ stones have the same potential results as +2 stones. (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Alluvion_Skirmish_Armor) +2 stones have a better chance at getting higher augments, but they probably do not have a 40 times (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/8957/snoworb-stone) better chance (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/8959/snoworb-stone-2).

People spend 100 million gil on augments because they have more money than sense, as far as I can tell.

[bazookatooth]

NQ stones have the same potential results as +2 stones. (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Alluvion_Skirmish_Armor) +2 stones have a better chance at getting higher augments, but they probably do not have a 40 times (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/8957/snoworb-stone) better chance (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/8959/snoworb-stone-2).

People spend 100 million gil on augments because they have more money than sense, as far as I can tell.

Okay, first of all, you have no idea whether they are 40 times as likely to get x augment and even if you did, that's not even close to the most important augment. And second, what part of "you're not going to even come close to out damaging anyone with that set" did you not understand?

[Railer]

You would think if beastmaster was so overpowered that there would be tons more people on this thread complaining. I also think that a boost to other dd's health would even the playing field a bit.

[dasva]

Okay, do I really have to spell everything out? A geared to the max BST vs geared to the max other jobs. It doesn't have to suck, it needs to just be toned down. Look at THF and what happened to them, seems SE already got the message and they are planning adjustments to BST.

Except a geared to the max bst wont outdo a geared to the max dd unless you are talking about low/no buff situations.

[dasva]

NQ stones have the same potential results as +2 stones. (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Alluvion_Skirmish_Armor) +2 stones have a better chance at getting higher augments, but they probably do not have a 40 times (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/8957/snoworb-stone) better chance (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/8959/snoworb-stone-2).

People spend 100 million gil on augments because they have more money than sense, as far as I can tell.

Actually they don't have exactly the same potential from what I've seen. I've yet to see any wrong augments with a +2 stone while with nqs it's fairly common. So right off the back a decent portion of nqs wont even give you an augment in the category you are going for let alone the particular one you want let alone a high amount. Also HQs have higher min caps so you have will at least get a decent amount.

Anyways the reason why there is such a huge price difference is because the odds of getting a good augment are that different. After throwing tons of various stones at things Nqs are definitely not worth the effort/gil except maybe dusk just because of the low availability. There are times when I seriously consider whether the ones I get from skirmish are worth the time it takes to trade them vs tossing. Now +1s are fairly decent noticeably worse than +2s but nowhere near as extreme so often worth it if the price difference becomes too great

[Draylo-]

You would think if beastmaster was so overpowered that there would be tons more people on this thread complaining. I also think that a boost to other dd's health would even the playing field a bit.

Population is low, in case you didn't notice. Also a lot of soloers (which is most of the pop atm) gravitate towards BST, they don't want it nerfed. Look at how all the people posting in this thread are BSTs as an example lol.


Except a geared to the max bst wont outdo a geared to the max dd unless you are talking about low/no buff situations.

Not true.

[Malthar]

Yes true. I always out dd any and all well geared bst on my nin.

[detlef]

Question: Is the debate really about BSTs out-damaging similarly geared melee DDs? Or is the issue that BST can provide multiple types of damage (even skillchaining) much more safely and requiring less continuous support and healing?

[Draylo-]

Yes true. I always out dd any and all well geared bst on my nin.

Stop lying, SE already knows the situation man.

[scaevola]

Actually they don't have exactly the same potential from what I've seen. I've yet to see any wrong augments with a +2 stone while with nqs it's fairly common.

dasva, I like you but this is nutty. "Wrong" augment? What? Does the system magically know what augment you want out of the pool and weight that augment for you?



Anyways the reason why there is such a huge price difference is because the odds of getting a good augment are that different. After throwing tons of various stones at things Nqs are definitely not worth the effort/gil except maybe dusk just because of the low availability. There are times when I seriously consider whether the ones I get from skirmish are worth the time it takes to trade them vs tossing. Now +1s are fairly decent noticeably worse than +2s but nowhere near as extreme so often worth it if the price difference becomes too great

Tell you what; you buy one duskorb +2 for 400k and I'll buy 40 NQs at 10k each, and we'll see who has the more desirable augment at the end.


Okay, first of all, you have no idea whether they are 40 times as likely to get x augment and even if you did, that's not even close to the most important augment. And second, what part of "you're not going to even come close to out damaging anyone with that set" did you not understand?

Just messing around in chump E AAs for testing (obviously I got trashed), patrick's hitting Tail Blow for about 3k with no melee pet stat gear on except Kerecahtl.

My SAM fudos in full 119 with Tsurumaru and what was maybe 10 or 12 STR away from the best WS set at the time I stopped playing it (though I shelved him before alluvion armor came out) for about 4k on such targets without attack buffs.

But I guess that's okay because Patrick has to wait 10 seconds to WS, whereas my SAM, with luck, only has to wait 7 or 8.

[Malthar]

Stop lying, SE already knows the situation man.

Bring it! I challenge you!

Find the best geared bst you know and I will beat it with my nin.

[machini]

Yeah, we're all BST. That's why a DNC with BST at level 15 is in here arguing that BST doesn't need to be nerfed, you just suck, and won't get better if your first instinct on someone doing better than you is to tear them down instead of build yourself up.

[dasva]

Not true.
Maybe your blu isn't as good as you think it is :p

[dasva]

dasva, I like you but this is nutty. "Wrong" augment? What? Does the system magically know what augment you want out of the pool and weight that augment for you?
Um no it isn't. Read up a little or do it a bit more because you are clearly a little low on what is what in the system. Wrong augments refer to getting ones not associated with those stones. For example getting a pet augment with a tip stone. It's fairly common with nq stones and I've yet to see it with a +2.




Tell you what; you buy one duskorb +2 for 400k and I'll buy 40 NQs at 10k each, and we'll see who has the more desirable augment at the end.I've done both for multiple jobs for multiple augments. So I know multiple times so I'll go with my +2 or maybe +1. Also in the time you actually spend trading all those extra stones could've farmed a few more...




Just messing around in chump E AAs for testing (obviously I got trashed), patrick's hitting Tail Blow for about 3k with no melee pet stat gear on except Kerecahtl.

My SAM fudos in full 119 with Tsurumaru and what was maybe 10 or 12 STR away from the best WS set at the time I stopped playing it (though I shelved him before alluvion armor came out) for about 4k on such targets without attack buffs.

But I guess that's okay because Patrick has to wait 10 seconds to WS, whereas my SAM, with luck, only has to wait 7 or 8.

Sure on trash content and/or completely unbuffed bst will win. I mean until recently jugs were basically about as strong as a completely unbuffed DD and clearly needed something. Most people kind of wanted to just allow pets to be buffed as that will be somewhat easier to balance. SE decided to just buff pets and give more equipment with pet stats. Not perfect as that means pets are decently stronger in no buff about the same in low buff and then still fairly lacking in high buff situations. All that -ready is basically our full haste buff/set

[dasva]

Oh no 42-60k dmg in just a minute and vagary!!! How could any DD hope to ever deal that incredible amount dmg... oh wait.

http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/images/552354cb22c392589a341dcc.jpg

Seriously if you think 1k dps is huge in this day and age I don't know what to tell you other than git gud and stop trying to solo with trusts

[scaevola]

Um no it isn't. Read up a little or do it a bit more because you are clearly a little low on what is what in the system. Wrong augments refer to getting ones not associated with those stones. For example getting a pet augment with a tip stone. It's fairly common with nq stones and I've yet to see it with a +2.

Oh, that's what you meant. I haven't really experienced that augmenting sets for jobs I don't care about with NQs, but anecdotez.


Oh no 42-60k dmg in just a minute and vagary!!! How could any DD hope to ever deal that incredible amount dmg... oh wait.

I mean, yeah, I definitely think magic bursts are way more broken than BST right now* but that seems to be what The People want and we've all sort of abandoned the lie that we ever wanted this game to be challenging, so if giving me 800k for a snowdim +2 is making people feel skilled, whatever.






*I don't even care if BST gets nerfed or not, really; I'm just debating this delusion that a BST needs to spend anywhere close to 100 million gil to get to the point that people are complaining about, like an extra 5 attack per augment slot is making the heavens open wide

[Draylo-]

That pic just loaded for me, we're talking about melee DD here. BST can do better than other melee DD options and doesn't need the support that those melee would. Saevel put it best in this thread earlier on and you can re-read his post on it. Why take a WAR or a DRK that requires a BRD or additional GEO buffs (indi-haste/etc) in addition to a WHM/healer when you can just bring a BST. I don't see how you would think they would nerf THF and leave BST as it is atm.

[machini]

Dude, just stop you are trying way too hard atm. Escha and Vagary aren't trash content and you can see the most vocal BST's doing that with ease and spamming 7~10k+ ws every 10 seconds. Anyone with a brain can see that no other DD job is going to keep up with that, especially under a situation where the NM tosses out debuffs (which is quite often.)

I can spam 7 to 10k WSes often enough to consistently self chain. I do more damage than a BST, especially when I'm as buffed as they are for the content they do. The fact of the matter is that you are an ignorant, rude person who takes delight in other people's fun being ruined for no reason other than you don't like that their big numbers are bigger than your big numbers, or that a job excelling at what it was designed to excel at.

[dasva]

First, lol at you telling me to "git gud". Second, SE already knows whats up. I'm gonna pass along here, the work is done. BST already getting a nerf, and more to come.

Was it as funny as I found 700-1k dps being something no other DD can obtain? Because I'm still laughing my about that one and I'm sure anyone who takes DDing seriously is as well. And that nerf is really just fixing something they didn't intend. They wanted jugs to skillchain with players or other pets easily do with themselves over and over again. But keep telling yourself that bst is so OP and SE recognizes this despite saying they just want to deal with the skillchain/MB option

[Malthar]

Children! Your mom has a headache. Stop fighting.

And I thought you weren't going to comment anymore, Dray? lol

Dasva, stop raising his dander. lol

[bazookatooth]

That pic just loaded for me, we're talking about melee DD here. BST can do better than other melee DD options and doesn't need the support that those melee would. Saevel put it best in this thread earlier on and you can re-read his post on it. Why take a WAR or a DRK that requires a BRD or additional GEO buffs (indi-haste/etc) in addition to a WHM/healer when you can just bring a BST. I don't see how you would think they would nerf THF and leave BST as it is atm.

NO, Saevel's been talking about how easy it is to build a MAB set for BST and steam roll every other DD. And we've been trying repeatedly to tell him how wrong he is both about how easy it is to build and how unimportant it is even if you have it. It makes perfect sense to post screens of other magic jobs doing 10X the damage he's so upset about. BSTs require buffs to do the damage you guys are so butt hurt about too. Read the thread before you post. They need GEO and COR buffs just like melee do. Just different buffs.

You guys are really just outing yourselves as knowing nothing about how this game works.

[dasva]

It's not as funny as your desperation in attacking anyone who thinks BST should be nerfed. Have you ever had a discussion before without resorting to attacking and name calling? You also conveniently skip over the facts that were brought up multiple times.

still not as funny as how you say anyone disagreeing with you is attacking you but you telling people they are trying to hard and lying or that they don't have half a brain with others is apparently showing everyone the "facts". Also didn't you say you were done here last page? Also git gud isn't name calling it's telling you to get better

[dasva]

NO, Saevel's been talking about how easy it is to build a MAB set for BST and steam roll every other DD. And we've been trying repeatedly to tell him how wrong he is both about how easy it is to build and how unimportant it is even if you have it. It makes perfect sense to post screens of other magic jobs doing 10X the damage he's so upset about. BSTs require buffs to do the damage you guys are so butt hurt about too. Read the thread before you post. They need GEO and COR buffs just like melee do. Just different buffs.

You guys are really just outing yourselves as knowing nothing about how this game works.

Yeah plus if pet mab sets on taeon are so easy you could instead just put regular mab augments on it and do this....
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/435a0911164aa6950be87f2c9ad04cb3.png


on a job I haven't actually brought to an event since soa came out btw and minimal support. Also technically rng isn't a melee but same difference bst or war can do just as good with cloudsplitter. Cor with leaden. Sam can spam ws much faster than anything. smn can do 99999 flaming crushes a couple of times a minute. Thf can still hit a good 50-60k on dmg neutral mobs if pimped enough. Nin can ws almost as fast as a sam. drk probably in a bad spot though

[Malthar]

I was there. He's lucky I was tanking. lol

[Draylo-]

RNG and COR aren't soloing or in most cases duoing things like BST is, so I don't see the comparison. SAM spamming ws doesn't mean anything especially considering we already discussed the required jobs it needs for support (yeah BST uses support but much less than a melee DD.) SMN is locked on a 35s timer, THF is locked behind a timer and requires additional support and NIN.. are you serious? BST has too many benefits behind it and that is what makes it unfair. All that DMG without the need for additional support and can laugh at a large majority of debuffs. The ready timer needs to be nerfed imo, that would go a long way to even things out.

[Draylo-]

NO, Saevel's been talking about how easy it is to build a MAB set for BST and steam roll every other DD. And we've been trying repeatedly to tell him how wrong he is both about how easy it is to build and how unimportant it is even if you have it. It makes perfect sense to post screens of other magic jobs doing 10X the damage he's so upset about. BSTs require buffs to do the damage you guys are so butt hurt about too. Read the thread before you post. They need GEO and COR buffs just like melee do. Just different buffs.

You guys are really just outing yourselves as knowing nothing about how this game works.

Says the lvl1 THF, not gonna argue with someone behind a mule account. Last I checked melee need a healer, haste, and the GEO can't do haste and torpor/frailty or whatever the melee would need to compete with a BST in addition to those simple buffs. Debuffs also skew the favor towards BST all the while they will be outparsed anyways.

[Ritsuka]

I think they should nerf it :o

[dasva]

RNG and COR aren't soloing or in most cases duoing things like BST is, so I don't see the comparison. SAM spamming ws doesn't mean anything especially considering we already discussed the required jobs it needs for support (yeah BST uses support but much less than a melee DD.) SMN is locked on a 35s timer, THF is locked behind a timer and requires additional support and NIN.. are you serious? BST has too many benefits behind it and that is what makes it unfair. All that DMG without the need for additional support and can laugh at a large majority of debuffs. The ready timer needs to be nerfed imo, that would go a long way to even things out.So who cares about soloing? So you admit sam is a better DD but are mad they need to take a whm? Well guess what that's the trade off of more dmg just like the trade off of not needing a healer is less dmg. yeah smn takes 3 times the recast but can do 9 times the dmg.... great argument there. Please players laugh at as many debuffs as pets do they are just different debuffs

[dasva]

Yeah a whole BST ls coming to support their favoritest job in the world. Gimmie a break, anyone can see how OP BST is atm, I'm so done with this thread!

Please in that same set of fights tonight our nin tanks were doing 10k+ ws faster than every 10 seconds. Which incidentally was about the same dmg as the tiger pet's moves we had with us. And that was without frailty or player att buffs though the bst did have beastmasters roll. Of course once one of the nms petrified it was all over for the bst. He was out for basically the rest of the fight... meanwhile ninja kept going. Done again already? Why it's only been 2 pages since you last said you were done

[bazookatooth]

Says the lvl1 THF, not gonna argue with someone behind a mule account. Last I checked melee need a healer, haste, and the GEO can't do haste and torpor/frailty or whatever the melee would need to compete with a BST in addition to those simple buffs. Debuffs also skew the favor towards BST all the while they will be outparsed anyways.

Maybe they should nerf me too. Doesn't seem fair that I'm this much better than you on a lvl 1 account. It's already been demonstrated with screenshots in this thread that plenty of jobs can out parse a BST.

[Draylo-]

Don't point the finger elsewhere, we are talking about BST for now.

[Malthar]

The "pointing the finger elsewhere" is how you like to call "people refuting my central point"?

You've lost this argument. You lost it long ago. You have demonstrated time and again your ignorance, your aggressive rudeness, and your complete and total lack of emotional detachment. I don't know what BST molested you as a child, but you need to let it go.

Here we go...

[Tidis]

I don't know what DDs are outparsing a BST right now but it will be under a well-buffed situation, if you put a DD under the same constrictions as solo BST, the have no haste, no att/acc buffs and no heals so they're dead in a minute at the most. If you ignore the whole dying aspect, an unbuffed DD doesn't hold a candle to BST right now, who, when geared correctly solo Difficult fights that otherwise generally require a party to defeat.

How is that not broken? There would be no problem with BST becoming strong enough that they warrant a DD spot in a party, or hell even a tanking one but to be able to solo fights that should require a party is OP.

[saevel]

I don't know what DDs are outparsing a BST right now but it will be under a well-buffed situation, if you put a DD under the same constrictions as solo BST, the have no haste, no att/acc buffs and no heals so they're dead in a minute at the most. If you ignore the whole dying aspect, an unbuffed DD doesn't hold a candle to BST right now, who, when geared correctly solo Difficult fights that otherwise generally require a party to defeat.

How is that not broken? There would be no problem with BST becoming strong enough that they warrant a DD spot in a party, or hell even a tanking one but to be able to solo fights that should require a party is OP.

It gets worse when you put them together with a COR and GEO. Beast roll, Companion Roll with Fraility and / or Torpor (depending on fight and how good the GEO's -DT set is), those pets are suddenly doing monstrous damage non stop. They are completely replaceable and three to four BST's can crush anything in the game doing that. Some of those pets have insane defensive stats, and because they aren't players they can actually evade and take hits from high level targets.

[bazookatooth]

I don't know what DDs are outparsing a BST right now but it will be under a well-buffed situation, if you put a DD under the same constrictions as solo BST, the have no haste, no att/acc buffs and no heals so they're dead in a minute at the most. If you ignore the whole dying aspect, an unbuffed DD doesn't hold a candle to BST right now, who, when geared correctly solo Difficult fights that otherwise generally require a party to defeat.

How is that not broken? There would be no problem with BST becoming strong enough that they warrant a DD spot in a party, or hell even a tanking one but to be able to solo fights that should require a party is OP.

So basically you're upset because a job that was designed to solo and has always been good at solo is better than other jobs at solo? makes sense...

Out of curiosity, what content are these beasts doing solo that other jobs can't? And do I mean solo. Because BST can't get any meaningful buffs from trusts and is certainly not out damaging another DD who has trust bard / cor / haste II. You can't solo escha. Requires 3 people just to pop. Can't solo delve. Can't solo vagary. So What's left that they can they do solo? One tier higher difficulty on a couple of the more gimicky AAs and Avatars that almost no one does any more anyways? Because if you use your google power, you'll find that other jobs can solo those too. Is that really what you call over powered?


It gets worse when you put them together with a COR and GEO. Beast roll, Companion Roll with Fraility and / or Torpor (depending on fight and how good the GEO's -DT set is), those pets are suddenly doing monstrous damage non stop. They are completely replaceable and three to four BST's can crush anything in the game doing that. Some of those pets have insane defensive stats, and because they aren't players they can actually evade and take hits from high level targets.

You give them cor and geo buffs and 3-4 <Any DD> can beat almost anything in the game. It's been that way for most content since like oh... 2009?..

[Tidis]

BST wasn't designed to be a solo job but keep telling yourself that, it became a solo job due to the old 30% exp penalty when using a pet, that no longer happens. Also thinking that BST is OP does not mean I or anyone, disagreeing with you is upset, it's just your way of deflecting the argument.

No job should be soloing content like Difficult merit fights except for very extreme circumstances, I'm sure many of you have seen the videos of the SCH who solos difficult/very difficult fights, that would be an extreme circumstance as he is very well geared and skilled enough to handle the various situations of the fight.

Whereas with BST you just need some decent gearsets, some job points and you're set.

[Draylo-]

It's not about only beating almost anything and you also conveniently skip over the fact they don't have to be in range of debuffs or require a specific healer or TANK because they can do both. They can also do AOE stuff down for massive damage (which only BLU can really do.) Why take 3-4 DD + Buffs + HEALER + TANK(can drop this if DD can tank) when you can take 2 BST + Buffs? See the difference ? Too many bonuses and not enough negatives. Also no, you pretty much can't take a DD like a DRK and put them in a VD fight with trusts and have them solo better than a BST or really anything as they will get creamed. BST does get meaningful buffs from trusts as well, distract, dia3, they can also melee too.

[dasva]

Ah look he just can't leave this thread.... despite saying he would twice.

[bazookatooth]

BST wasn't designed to be a solo job but keep telling yourself that, it became a solo job due to the old 30% exp penalty when using a pet, that no longer happens. Also thinking that BST is OP does not mean I or anyone, disagreeing with you is upset, it's just your way of deflecting the argument.

And arguing over the terminology used to describe how you feel is your way of deflecting the argument. If it didn't bother you, you wouldn't be complaining about it on a message board. You probably wouldn't have even bothered to read it. You'd be going on with your life. But you're here.


No job should be soloing content like Difficult merit fights except for very extreme circumstances, I'm sure many of you have seen the videos of the SCH who solos difficult/very difficult fights, that would be an extreme circumstance as he is very well geared and skilled enough to handle the various situations of the fight.

So the implication here is that there is no way for a BST to be well geared and skilled? Go try those fights on D without spending millions in gear and R/E items and then get back to me. Hell, even the jugs they use for those solos cost hundreds of thousands on your server. Let me know next time you see a SAM saying he spend a few hundred k on food for 1 fight.

Here's an idea. If it's so easy to beat those fights on D, why don't you post a video? I mean the gear practically falls from the sky and you can get all the augments you need for a couple hundred K according to thins thread. By now, someone should have shown us all how easy it is to do just out of sheer boredom.


Whereas with BST you just need some decent gearsets, some job points and you're set.

I like to know what your idea of pretty decent is. Please show us what you think you can beat a D fight in so we can all have a good chuckle.



It's not about only beating almost anything and you also conveniently skip over the fact they don't have to be in range of debuffs or require a specific healer or TANK because they can do both. They can also do AOE shit down for massive damage (which only BLU can really do.) Why take 3-4 DD + Buffs + HEALER + TANK(can drop this if DD can tank) when you can take 2 BST + Buffs? See the difference ? Too many bonuses and not enough negatives. Also no, you pretty much can't take a DD like a DRK and put them in a VD fight with trusts and have them solo better than a BST or really anything as they will get creamed. BST does get meaningful buffs from trusts as well, distract, dia3, they can also melee too.

And you're conveniently skipping over the part where they can't remove a large portion of those debuffs from the pet, (did you get hit with break? enjoy being useless for 5 minutes) Can only heal it about once every minute, have to use pets that are generally bad at doing damage in order to tank but they get DIstract and DIA... meanwhile DD get Haste II, Double attack and attack rolls, Marches, Mins, Mads. etc. etc. and continuous healing and buff removal on demand.

And yes, I do see the differences in that set up. One party had too many people to begin with.

[dasva]

Plenty of mobs petrify. If amnesia doesn't last long then neither do any debuffs that effect players since status cures exist. Doom completely stops any bst strategy. Curse is pretty backbreaking as well. As is any heavy dots. Seriously your debuff argument makes no sense at all. If anything it overall effects jugs more unless you run around without support...

Also who the heck is devastated? I'm guessing you since you mad a bst ever beat your blu dding. Me? I'm laughing my ass off that anyone thinks the little bit of dmg bst can do now is all that much. My pet ls frequently doesn't use pets because they aren't all that for dmg unless you doing AoE stuff that is too dangerous for mages. They are just the lazy/easy option. Half the time we use pets is mostly because nobody here likes playing whm not because it's better. But that doesn't stop our best geared bst from trying to come nin all the time and yep doing more dmg. Which is also nice because without tanks things get pretty hairy

[Draylo-]

Name all the mobs post Delve that constantly petrify. Status cures take time to cast, especially if you don't have a Yagrush present. Slow, plague, paralyze etc will all have worse effects on player than a pet. My debuff argument makes plenty sense, have you never gotten debuffed before in content? At this point we are going in circles, people who are all BST 4 eva vs people who feel its OP atm. At this point we need parses or proof of your NIN beating a well geared BST with all buffs equal, because I am not buying that. I wanna see gear and parse, on paper they should not be losing to a NIN at all (FYI I have access to multiple BSTs account well geared.) Final point is, 10s ready time is the issue and needs to be remedied.

[Olor]

10s ready time is the issue and needs to be remedied.

Sorry what DDs are so bad that they have to consistently wait more than 10 seconds between weaponskills these days? And you do realize the 1 charge weaponskills don't have any decent attributes right? It's not like pets are doing double darkness skillchains.

And in order to get that 10 second ready time, the BST has to CHANGE WEAPONS. To a non-ilevel axe even! Meaning master is completely useless. Nevermind JA lock, so the ONLY damage a bst is doing in that situation is with their pet, and PETS ARE NOT BETTER THAN PLAYERS UNLESS THE PLAYERS SUCK.

[Malthar]

(FYI I have access to multiple BSTs account well geared.)

Bring it! My nin will whoop yo bst! lol

In tanking mode with just haste for shadow recast I keep up with the bsts. It's the smn's who're overpowered... x.x

Oh no... Did I just start another argument?

[Draylo-]

lol you aren't on BST!?

[Malthar]

Nah, it doesn't do enough damage. lol

[dasva]

Name all the mobs post Delve that constantly petrify. Status cures take time to cast, especially if you don't have a Yagrush present. Slow, plague, paralyze etc will all have worse effects on player than a pet. My debuff argument makes plenty sense, have you never gotten debuffed before in content? At this point we are going in circles, people who are all BST 4 eva vs people who feel its OP atm. At this point we need parses or proof of your NIN beating a well geared BST with all buffs equal, because I am not buying that. I wanna see gear and parse, on paper they should not be losing to a NIN at all (FYI I have access to multiple BSTs account well geared.) Final point is, 10s ready time is the issue and needs to be remedied.

Yeah no not going to look up every mob that has debuffs that wreck jugs. Unless you want list for me all the debuffs that somewhat hurt players but don't do much to jugs. No your debuff argument makes no sense because both pets and players can be effected more by certain debuffs it's just different debuffs. In some situations it's worse for players some it's worst for pets. Deal with it it can't always be better worse for pets

Sorry I can't here you over me dealing as much dmg with a single ws as our bst did in a whole minute while completely staying out of range of any moves... ironically also interrupting the skillchain I tried to do with our smn. On paper a friggin rdm should be able to do 1k dps with proper buffs. How about you provide parses and proof hmmm?

[machini]

It gets worse when you put them together with a COR and GEO. Beast roll, Companion Roll with Fraility and / or Torpor (depending on fight and how good the GEO's -DT set is), those pets are suddenly doing monstrous damage non stop. They are completely replaceable and three to four BST's can crush anything in the game doing that. Some of those pets have insane defensive stats, and because they aren't players they can actually evade and take hits from high level targets.

And any other DD when buffed with Chaos Roll, and a GEO doing Fury/Frailty also tears up. Your point being?

[Rpro]

And any other DD when buffed with Chaos Roll, and a GEO doing Fury/Frailty also tears up. Your point being?

The difference is when the pet dies, the master just jugs another one to keep fighting. Non-pet jobs can't really do that, ya know.

[dasva]

The difference is when the pet dies, the master just jugs another one to keep fighting. Non-pet jobs can't really do that, ya know.

Magic and ranged dmg jobs can unless double weak though if magic and ranged jobs are dying that often you probably have other issues as well.

And that only works if call beast is up... which is the interestingly the same recast as normal weakness duration (done on purpose?) though arise is lower for the whms that have that. Just you can "precharge" the time with call beast. Though really drgs have it the worst... 20 min call wyvern recast on a job that stays in melee range is painful

[bazookatooth]

The difference is when the pet dies, the master just jugs another one to keep fighting. Non-pet jobs can't really do that, ya know.

And when the NIN dies, he just Mijin Gakures himself back to full power. I'd start a thread about how unfair it is that Ninja gets all those shadows and a weakness free death every hour, but I'm actually fond of my ninja and I don't mind other people having nice things.

[Numquam]

BST too strong. Nerf please.

[saevel]

Magic and ranged dmg jobs can unless double weak though if magic and ranged jobs are dying that often you probably have other issues as well.

And that only works if call beast is up... which is the interestingly the same recast as normal weakness duration (done on purpose?) though arise is lower for the whms that have that. Just you can "precharge" the time with call beast. Though really drgs have it the worst... 20 min call wyvern recast on a job that stays in melee range is painful

Ranged can't be buffed anywhere close to what a melee can, haste is that powerful. But BST pets blow everything away, they come out with insanely high stats and powerful TP moves. SMN doesn't touch BST in the potential damage output. I would say that BST's is by far the best DD right now because it can do all that damage, hate free and with no healer support. Pets are basically DD's that can full time TP gear while also full timing WS gear while also full timing -DT gear, having zero raise weakness and can spam TP moves back to back with impunity at the start of a fight. All without a single down side.

That is what makes it broke, it's all PRO with no CON's. We did Vagery formor zone with a party consisting of BSTx5 + COR, and two GEO's inside the tank PT. It was a total joke, everything just instantly melted and we laughed the entire time. Half the pets where capable of a circular aoe, the other were that tiger with powerful single target and conal moves. Watching as one of the GEO's, it was ridiculous how easy it was compared to other setups I've done. Geo-Fraility + Geo-Torpor + Indi-wilt + Indi-refresh (or whatever) is just WTF broken in there.

[Ritsuka]

So basically you're upset because a job that was designed to solo and has always been good at solo is better than other jobs at solo? makes sense...

Out of curiosity, what content are these beasts doing solo that other jobs can't? And do I mean solo. Because BST can't get any meaningful buffs from trusts and is certainly not out damaging another DD who has trust bard / cor / haste II. You can't solo escha. Requires 3 people just to pop. Can't solo delve. Can't solo vagary. So What's left that they can they do solo? One tier higher difficulty on a couple of the more gimicky AAs and Avatars that almost no one does any more anyways? Because if you use your google power, you'll find that other jobs can solo those too. Is that really what you call over powered?



You give them cor and geo buffs and 3-4 <Any DD> can beat almost anything in the game. It's been that way for most content since like oh... 2009?..

bst can solo Delve all of them and other jobs cant?

[scaevola]

And in order to get that 10 second ready time, the BST has to CHANGE WEAPONS. To a non-ilevel axe even! Meaning master is completely useless. Nevermind JA lock, so the ONLY damage a bst is doing in that situation is with their pet, and PETS ARE NOT BETTER THAN PLAYERS UNLESS THE PLAYERS SUCK.

And yet the 10 second cooldown is so powerful people do it anyway.

[bazookatooth]

bst can solo Delve all of them and other jobs cant?

You can ennter delve solo now?


And yet the 10 second cooldown is so powerful people do it anyway.

I could say the same thing about every disadvantage you stated about any other DD job. Your point is moot.

[Rpro]

And when the NIN dies, he just Mijin Gakures himself back to full power. I'd start a thread about how unfair it is that Ninja gets all those shadows and a weakness free death every hour, but I'm actually fond of my ninja and I don't mind other people having nice things.

Oh damn, I didn't realize Call Beast was on a 1hr timer now! That really sucks for BST. :(

[bazookatooth]

Oh damn, I didn't realize Call Beast was on a 1hr timer now! That really sucks for BST. :(

You should go Google all these D and VD fights people are complaining about on here. BSTs are using both their 1 hours and usually a bunch of Mulsums (@20k a pop) on top of it. Same difference. And that's not even the point. The point is that every job has advantages and disadvantages that others don't. Pets don't get shadows. Pets can only remove a few Debuffs and the ones that can be removed are on a 1 minute timer. Pets can't weapon skill nearly as often as any other job. I literally can't hit my Fudo macro as fast as I get TP on SAM. Same goes for Monk, THF, DNC, etc. Even my blu gets tp faster than I can use it when I'm not casting spells. I can drop Nukes every 3 seconds (not 10) on SCH / BLM / GEO and not really be in any danger. Even with call beast on a 5 minute timer and around 100 mil in DT- gear, I still find myself standing around impotent in events when my pet dies from time to time. Especially in yorcia skirmish where an unfortunate spawn can put you right in the path of the monsters that for some reason agro pets. Or in Escha where monsters get happy with aoe and Rewards timer can't keep up.

There's pretty much nothing a pet can do that a normal player can't do better, except survive those huge aoe's that SE loves to put on every mob and that's a problem with the game in general. Not one job. SE really needs to boost players health to Abyssea style levels if they don't want everything to be BST / PUP / SMN spam right now, because the alternative is to nerf every pet job and still not really solve the problem.

[Dew]

Please delete Bst from the game and Pup while you are at it. They are terribad jobs and should not exist. :)

[dasva]

bst can solo Delve all of them and other jobs cant?

Um way before bst was sch was

[dasva]

Ranged can't be buffed anywhere close to what a melee can, haste is that powerful. But BST pets blow everything away, they come out with insanely high stats and powerful TP moves. SMN doesn't touch BST in the potential damage output. I would say that BST's is by far the best DD right now because it can do all that damage, hate free and with no healer support. Pets are basically DD's that can full time TP gear while also full timing WS gear while also full timing -DT gear, having zero raise weakness and can spam TP moves back to back with impunity at the start of a fight. All without a single down side.

That is what makes it broke, it's all PRO with no CON's. We did Vagery formor zone with a party consisting of BSTx5 + COR, and two GEO's inside the tank PT. It was a total joke, everything just instantly melted and we laughed the entire time. Half the pets where capable of a circular aoe, the other were that tiger with powerful single target and conal moves. Watching as one of the GEO's, it was ridiculous how easy it was compared to other setups I've done. Geo-Fraility + Geo-Torpor + Indi-wilt + Indi-refresh (or whatever) is just WTF broken in there.

I think you underestimate other peoples dmg and forget how low dmg enmity is right now. That 51k trueflight I posted earlier on escha nm was only helped with aurastorm 1 and malaise/acumen from a geo mule that only has dunna. That's it. And the mob didn't even glance my direction.

As far as smn well smn can actually do other things... SE seems to not want jugs to actually be useful for any other than eating dmg and dealing it... but as far as the can't touch comment they are better than you might think... sorry for the quality but had to get it from a youtube vid

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/72c19f863330ebd15e8bfdc93f411ec7.png

[Ritsuka]

Um way before bst was sch was

I dont think sch can solo Toji Wolfbeer solo's them all. He is a bst and even says its over powered.

[Draylo-]

We are talking about BST not any other job. You can start threads if you think they are overpowered. Point is, right now BST is and it needs adjustments.

[bazookatooth]

We are talking about BST not any other job. You can start threads if you think they are overpowered. Point is, right now BST is and it needs adjustments.

Nice try, but we've been talking about lots of other jobs and how they compare to BST throughout this thread. Specifically, the OP asks the devs to boost other jobs instead of nerfing BST. A rather altruistic approach if you ask me. You don't get to decide what the topic is. This is an open forum. Hopefully those videos inspire you to do better at whatever job it is that you think should be better instead of trying to ruin other people's jobs to bring them down to your level.

[Draylo-]

Nice try, but we've been talking about lots of other jobs and how they compare to BST throughout this thread. Specifically, the OP asks the devs to boost other jobs instead of nerfing BST. A rather altruistic approach if you ask me. You don't get to decide what the topic is. This is an open forum. Hopefully those videos inspire you to do better at whatever job it is that you think should be better instead of trying to ruin other people's jobs to bring them down to your level.

Nope they need nerf, also you seem to be missing a key fact, I have a geared and skilled BST. I know what the job is capable of thanks.

[bazookatooth]

Nope they need nerf, also you seem to be missing a key fact, I have a geared and skilled BST. I know what the job is capable of thanks.

I have every job geared and skilled with the exception of PUP. Welcome to the club. What jobs that YOU have leveled are irrelevant to how the game works. Several jobs blow BST out of the water in damage and the proposed changes won't make any other job less prone to die when NMs spam AOE moves.

[Arthos]

BST already go a huge Nerf last update, it's fine as it is now. No more D AA's for 99% of the Bst's population. But even before that only a few were able to do this.

And yes, against fodder mobs it will perform better than other DD's, always had.
Although the difference to other jobs isnt that huge in Escha, but it's very easy to play and not much skill is needed.

At higher content it's surely not stronger. It may has higher base stats, but gear is more limited. Can't augment ACC and ATT on a Taeon as for the other jobs, for pets it's only one of them. And if you have a slot where both is availible, like Despair Helm, a melee can have higher stats on this slot.

My Blu outdamages my Bst easily on full DD-mode, although it does not have capped JP's like my Bst has. And furthermore i didnt need to spend 80-100m on it.
Only situation i can imagine a comparable Blu looses to a Bst is when Bst is watching for monster weakness, using a piercing dmg pet/move to bird e.g.

The reason for all these bst burns is more that it is easy to do and almost no skill and teamwork is required.
You need to have knowledge about the game if you build a more classic pt, which many don't have. So they choose the easy route. Now it's bst burn, if you nerf it, it will only fall back to the previous easy mode setup, like the "Aegis/Ochain Pld, relic rng, Sam, Brd idk" setup, which was lame too. Not the setup itself, but the ignorance to other possible combinations and the strict requirements to members.

Bst is a cool job, and I'm very happy to see it useful for group content after so many years. And it's good balanced right now.
Sad is, that so many ppl don't think of other strategies for their daily battle, because just throwing pets everytime on everything is definitely not fun.

[Grekumah]

While we are not planning to make any adjustments to beastmaster in terms of directly lowering their attacking capabilities so that they cannot elicit the power they’ve been able to output until now, we are planning to revamp the stats of certain special abilities that have a higher effect than expected. In the version update set to take place on August 5th, we will be making the following adjustments:


The effect of Infrasonics used by the following pets will be changed.


Warlike Patrick / Audacious Anna / Lizard Familiar / Coldblood Como


Effect

Reduced evasion effect value will change from -25% to -40.
Accuracy will be increased.




Additionally, as a future adjustment we are looking into aspects where the master takes on more of a risk. The concept is to shorten the distance certain pet commands can be used to create more opportunities to be close to monsters. We’ll first monitor how the adjustments are going in the August version update and announce further details later.

[larrymc]

While we are not planning to make any adjustments to beastmaster in terms of directly lowering their attacking capabilities so that they cannot elicit the power they’ve been able to output until now, we are planning to revamp the stats of certain special abilities that have a higher effect than expected. In the version update set to take place on August 5th, we will be making the following adjustments:


The effect of Infrasonics used by the following pets will be changed.


Warlike Patrick / Audacious Anna / Lizard Familiar / Coldblood Como


Effect

Reduced evasion effect value will change from -25% to -40.
Accuracy will be increased.




Additionally, as a future adjustment we are looking into aspects where the master takes on more of a risk. The concept is to shorten the distance certain pet commands can be used to create more opportunities to be close to monsters. We’ll first monitor how the adjustments are going in the August version update and announce further details later.

If the idea is to shorten the ready range so the master will be in the devastating AoE range right along with the pet .. then that just about kills bst. Also the infrasonics change is a major nerf to bst enfeebling - now infrasonics becomes a weak version of distract II ...

[Ataraxia]

While we are not planning to make any adjustments to beastmaster in terms of directly lowering their attacking capabilities so that they cannot elicit the power they’ve been able to output until now, we are planning to revamp the stats of certain special abilities that have a higher effect than expected. In the version update set to take place on August 5th, we will be making the following adjustments:


The effect of Infrasonics used by the following pets will be changed.


Warlike Patrick / Audacious Anna / Lizard Familiar / Coldblood Como


Effect

Reduced evasion effect value will change from -25% to -40.
Accuracy will be increased.




Additionally, as a future adjustment we are looking into aspects where the master takes on more of a risk. The concept is to shorten the distance certain pet commands can be used to create more opportunities to be close to monsters. We’ll first monitor how the adjustments are going in the August version update and announce further details later.

I for once never use Infrasonics on Shockmaw and Urmahlulu and it resist a lot of times. It was tough hitting the NM even if Drachen roll and Geo-Torpor and most of the time pet have to resort to run wild to speed up the fight.

If a NM have 1,000 evasion than 25% of it is -250 evasion which is big nerf down to -40 and even half is still a lot. So I hope that accuracy boost is enough to land on strong NM like Shockmaw and Urmahlulu. Also pet magic attack TP move is a bit lacking and it get resisted on normal avatar and probably even worse resist when dealing with shockmaw and Urmahlulu.

people already spending 40 million gil just to have a good accuracy or attack gear set for pet. Than how about spending over 100 million gil for pet magic accuracy that is not even the worse part yet. Another 100 million gil just for a magic attack for pet. It all depends on luck and most of the time you end up with accuracy or attack. Bst should not struggle with magic accuracy at all and if pet magic accuracy was enhance than a different battle strategy can be use against NM like shockmaw and other super tough NM Bst probably be good friends to blue mage and black mage. Currently, right now that is not happening Bst is only good friend to other Bst because it's Bouncing Bertha pet all the way unless some changes are made. =)

Grekumah are you aware of recent request? Charmer's Merlin lv. 90 axe and Desultor Tassets legs lv. 75 are still being use right now and those are low level gear but they are still very good but it limit bst from using a better axe and better legs piece that offer pet accuracy and attack. I think - sic and ready should be put on empyrean 119 helm or 119 gloves or add more to gift points. I think right now Fencer is absolutely useless for BST and I have seen it on gift points which i think doesn't benefit bst at all and a waste of spot.

A lot of bst at this point always dual wield and never seen one bst actually use Axe and Shield unless there was a bonus involve when using 1 hand axe and shield that pet get more acc, attack, defense and - sic / ready than there is no point. It would be good all together to see Bst actually have a dual wield job trait so we can see bst/whm, bst/run, bst/rdm in the future. Otherwise, we going to see sub ninja and sub dnc most of the time. I still have faith in the Community Team for future adjustment just make it good for Pet and please don't forget about PUP because they absolutely suck at doing escha NM. Pup pet are not smart and they probably TP when NM is in invincible mode or perfect dodge unlike SMN and BSt they are smart because they control when to TP and when to not. If pup pet still going auto mode than pet TP move need a large boost to accuracy and damage to keep up with Bst and Smn.

[Tidis]

Oh no a BST pet ability is less potent than a spell on a job that is designed to be an enfeebler?

How unfair.

[Malthar]

Additionally, as a future adjustment we are looking into aspects where the master takes on more of a risk. The concept is to shorten the distance certain pet commands can be used to create more opportunities to be close to monsters. We’ll first monitor how the adjustments are going in the August version update and announce further details later.

Any thoughts on that sic/ready recast delay -5 shield so that the bst can get into the fray? I don't mind mixing it up with the NM. I just don't want to die every time it does a strong TP move.

[Hoshi]

If the idea is to shorten the ready range so the master will be in the devastating AoE range right along with the pet .. then that just about kills bst. Also the infrasonics change is a major nerf to bst enfeebling - now infrasonics becomes a weak version of distract II ...

I think you could work around this on most NMs by bringing a stunner? It would still beat having a bunch of melee in full time soaking up damage.

[Ulth]

I think you could work around this on most NMs by bringing a stunner? It would still beat having a bunch of melee in full time soaking up damage.

I'm guessing the work around will be the bst just running in range for a second every 10 seconds. If the distance thing actually get implemented which it probably won't.

[Railer]

So that means no pet skillchain adjustment? Adjusting the range in which the master is in harms way is not a good idea. The master hasn't any main job capabilities to negate front line damage taken which was said over and over in past topics. "BEAST"master not axemaster or warrior with pet.

[Grekumah]

As a follow-up to the post from yesterday, we will also be making adjustments to beetle familiars in the August version update.


The effect of Hi-Freq Field used by the following pets will be changed.


Hurler Percival / Panzer Galahad / Beetle Familiar



Effect

Reduced evasion effect value will change from -25% to -40.
Accuracy will be increased.

[Arthos]

Many would like to melee alongside their pet. It's mainly limited by gear. You loose all your TP on a ready move or you gimp your ready move alot. In theory you can balance this out with a self SC, but that's more for solo play, it will rarely work in a group.
If you don't change available gear, you will just see us run in and out (or maybe just shutdown because of the stupidity), but not engage the mob, because it's senseless.

It's also a bit funny trying to solve that problem with just letting us run into the AoE's. While we on it, let's also bring the mages at higher risk, 21 yalm is a bit easy mode. Reduce casting range to 10 yalm atleast. They mostly can survive AoE's even better than a bst anyway.

I mean seriously, ...

Like the adjustment to the evasion moves though. That's fair game.

[scaevola]

Oh, it's not all THAT bad, you guys. You can store Ready charges; you don't necessarily have to be running in every ten seconds like a headless chicken to maximize your Ready DPS.

[Arthos]

Oh, it's not all THAT bad, you guys. You can store Ready charges; you don't necessarily have to be running in every ten seconds like a headless chicken to maximize your Ready DPS.

It's not working like that. There's the time the move takes + you also want to get the pet some TP inbetween to boost the move.

And i also doubt you understood what this is about. We WANT to engage, atleast on stuff we can survive and/or have support. But we CANT, because we dont have the gear for it to make it worth it.
And instead of working on the reason we dont engage, we get this?

[larrymc]

BST should get native dual wield at 99, then we can use other subjobs for better defense against AoEs like /rdm or /whm or /sch or /run

[Arthos]

....because it's Bouncing Bertha pet all the way unless some changes are made. =)


Don't need changes on that. Bertha is best pet for Unleash or Skirmish when you just want to oneshot small number of trash mobs, but for boss fights there are many better choices.
If no special resistance or damage type is needed, sheep does much better with rage up, and without it's still good dmg and also durable.
Tiger is very good too for single target, Colibri has lot's of Accuracy, great against Birds, and so on.

[Ulth]

It's not working like that. There's the time the move takes + you also want to get the pet some TP inbetween to boost the move.

And i also doubt you understood what this is about. We WANT to engage, atleast on stuff we can survive and/or have support. But we CANT, because we dont have the gear for it to make it worth it.
And instead of working on the reason we dont engage, we get this?

Actually getting tp between ready's doesn't matter that much. When a pet has less than 1000 tp and uses a tp move from ready it's treated as if it had 1000 tp. So the only time it would matter is if you tp above 1000 tp, or above 500 and have an Aymur. Even still most pets are war and have fencer which gives them +500 tp bonus, and then there are Nukumi Manoplas +1 which give another 600. That means even with 0 tp pets use their moves with 2100 tp, and ftp really drops off after 2000 tp.

[Arthos]

Actually getting tp between ready's doesn't matter that much. When a pet has less than 1000 tp and uses a tp move from ready it's treated as if it had 1000 tp. So the only time it would matter is if you tp above 1000 tp, or above 500 and have an Aymur. Even still most pets are war and have fencer which gives them +500 tp bonus, and then there are Nukumi Manoplas +1 which give another 600. That means even with 0 tp pets use their moves with 2100 tp, and ftp really drops off after 2000 tp.

You forgot the 400 TP bonus you can augment on the skirmish axes.

The difference between 2000 and 3000TP is around 12% more dmg for many ready moves. Comparable to the WSD+ you augment on a Taeon. But everyone just skip that part now, not worth it.

Besides that you can replace the Nukumi Manoplas with ATT, ACC or MAB and begin the TP bonus ralley on the next level. And now please don't say 25ATT or MAB doesn't matter!

[Arthos]

....you also want to get the pet some TP inbetween to boost the move.


I was wrong on that. In Theory it looks like a good idea, but after some testing it seems the TP collected under 1000 doesn't count towards the TP bonus.

[bazookatooth]

Let's be honest here. Most of the gear ( Especially the axes) that give the pet enough accuracy to hit anything difficult, doesn't give the master any accuracy. Then you lose other melee stats to DT-, DA etc. for the pet. So even if you get to melee on BST, either the master or the pet is gonna have horrible damage output and take massive damage. Even if they add more gear to compensate for that, the best case scenario is you wasted hundreds of millions on augments and / or the new gear still isn't as good as what we had before. If they make the gear good enough that both master and pet are capable of being front-line on difficult stuff, they will be invincible against med-low difficulty stuff. Forcing the master into melee range is a horrible idea.

[kylani]

Let's be honest here. Most of the gear ( Especially the axes) that give the pet enough accuracy to hit anything difficult, doesn't give the master any accuracy. Then you lose other melee stats to DT-, DA etc. for the pet. So even if you get to melee on BST, either the master or the pet is gonna have horrible damage output and take massive damage. Even if they add more gear to compensate for that, the best case scenario is you wasted hundreds of millions on augments and / or the new gear still isn't as good as what we had before. If they make the gear good enough that both master and pet are capable of being front-line on difficult stuff, they will be invincible against med-low difficulty stuff. Forcing the master into melee range is a horrible idea.

I agree. The master doesn't survive as well as other jobs. My WHM with much less effort equipping survives melee far better than my BST. Beast requires trade-offs between buffing the pet and master.

It's rather frustrating that after all of the time that Beast is laughed at for end game content and considered a joke by the 'play a real job like Monk or Sam' players, now that there is one end game event that BST is good at, it's kill BeastMaster vs. making other jobs able to do the content.

I don't do much endgame anymore, so I don't care as much about the magic blast nerfs (though I feel terribly bad for those who spent a fortune equipping to take advantage of it), but I'd hate to see the job destroyed. I like a lot of jobs, but I've played BST and made it work when others, including friends, laughed at how 'useless' it was in the scheme of endgame. I played bard, whm, or rdm for group events because BST was unwanted, but still duoed with a PUP friend for some of the best times I've had in the game. Even if it wasn't the conventional, optimal way to accomplish goals, it was fun figuring out a way to work with the jobs strengths and weaknesses. This whole thread is depressing.

[Ulth]

Gear is a problem for the pet jobs where the master engages in combat. The problem is, like bazooka said, they make the owner choose between gearing the pet or gearing themselves. One set they need to add is a heavy armor set where the master gets accuracy, attack, double attack, and store tp, while the pet gets damage taken, accuracy, and HP. That way beastmaster can have pet tanking armor while still attacking, and dragoon can have a DD set where its wyvern doesn't get one shot. Fix two problems right there. A master mab, and pet mab set wouldn't hurt either. Giving beastmaster more mab would help make fencer more useful for weaponskills like primal rend, and cloud splitter. Speaking of fencer, some 119 shields wouldn't hurt.

You need some carrots to go with your stick. It's not enough to penalize beastmaster for not engaging with its pet. You also have to incentivize that play style. In the original Japanese response that trigger this thread it was mentioned that the 10 second ready timer was fine because by using charmer's merlin the player gives up all the damage that the master would do. Which to players is a pretty no brainer trade off. The master does not do enough damage to not have the pet use a tp move 50% faster. Especially when the master standing out of aoe range is safer. Lowering the range ready can be used make it a little less safe, but only changes one half of the problem.

[bazookatooth]

Gear is a problem for the pet jobs where the master engages in combat. The problem is, like bazooka said, they make the owner choose between gearing the pet or gearing themselves. One set they need to add is a heavy armor set where the master gets accuracy, attack, double attack, and store tp, while the pet gets damage taken, accuracy, and HP. That way beastmaster can have pet tanking armor while still attacking, and dragoon can have a DD set where its wyvern doesn't get one shot. Fix two problems right there. A master mab, and pet mab set wouldn't hurt either. Giving beastmaster more mab would help make fencer more useful for weaponskills like primal rend, and cloud splitter. Speaking of fencer, some 119 shields wouldn't hurt.

You need some carrots to go with your stick. It's not enough to penalize beastmaster for not engaging with its pet. You also have to incentivize that play style. In the original Japanese response that trigger this thread it was mentioned that the 10 second ready timer was fine because by using charmer's merlin the player gives up all the damage that the master would do. Which to players is a pretty no brainer trade off. The master does not do enough damage to not have the pet use a tp move 50% faster. Especially when the master standing out of aoe range is safer. Lowering the range ready can be used make it a little less safe, but only changes one half of the problem.

The unfortunate problem with adding those armor sets is they won't come before the nerf, if they come at all. And if they do actually make a set like that, people will just cry nerf again because the pet and the master are doing decent damage. Either that, or go back to using other DD jobs instead of beast master because Not getting killed is literally the only thing that beast master is better at.

[zataz]

Name all the mobs post Delve that constantly petrify. Status cures take time to cast, especially if you don't have a Yagrush present. Slow, plague, paralyze etc will all have worse effects on player than a pet. My debuff argument makes plenty sense, have you never gotten debuffed before in content? At this point we are going in circles, people who are all BST 4 eva vs people who feel its OP atm. At this point we need parses or proof of your NIN beating a well geared BST with all buffs equal, because I am not buying that. I wanna see gear and parse, on paper they should not be losing to a NIN at all (FYI I have access to multiple BSTs account well geared.) Final point is, 10s ready time is the issue and needs to be remedied.

idk about all the mobs =P but in the words of tony montana fly Pelican

[Gwydion]

Grekumah,
Beastmaster's ready distances don't need to change. They've been the same way for 13 years. Just leave it as is. If you want to adjust individual moves, fine...but just leave the mechanics of playing BST the same.

Besides, we play with trusts and shortening Ready distances could impact how we play with Trusts and may cause them to disengage unintentionally.

Edit: I'm all for enhancing other jobs if one truly feels that Beastmaster has an advantage here. I think BST is fine the way it is right now.

[Arthos]

The unfortunate problem with adding those armor sets is they won't come before the nerf, if they come at all. And if they do actually make a set like that, people will just cry nerf again because the pet and the master are doing decent damage. Either that, or go back to using other DD jobs instead of beast master because Not getting killed is literally the only thing that beast master is better at.

Those Armor exists already.
Taeon, Despair, some Empy pieces. For ready moves you can simple switch to a full pet-set. You loose some points of Pet dt, but this is still acceptable in group content.
The problem is more located in the weapon section, here you have to decide, if you want to see a good ready move, or be able to hit with master on a D battlefield e.g..
If you stick with Ready move, you can disengage, because your hit rate will be not high enough. And this is what happened.

[Calatilla]

Many would like to melee alongside their pet. It's mainly limited by gear. You loose all your TP on a ready move or you gimp your ready move alot. In theory you can balance this out with a self SC, but that's more for solo play, it will rarely work in a group.
If you don't change available gear, you will just see us run in and out (or maybe just shutdown because of the stupidity), but not engage the mob, because it's senseless.

It's also a bit funny trying to solve that problem with just letting us run into the AoE's. While we on it, let's also bring the mages at higher risk, 21 yalm is a bit easy mode. Reduce casting range to 10 yalm atleast. They mostly can survive AoE's even better than a bst anyway.

I mean seriously, ...

Like the adjustment to the evasion moves though. That's fair game.
SMN has had to brave AoE's to use Rages since day one and it hasn't done them any harm, and SMN is a wet paper bag compared to BST when it comes to taking a hit.

[Arthos]

SMN has had to brave AoE's to use Rages since day one and it hasn't done them any harm, and SMN is a wet paper bag compared to BST when it comes to taking a hit.

SMN is a wet paper bag, that's true, but not when it comes to magic damage, which most AoE are.
There it is much more durable than bst:

-MDB from subjob redmage or whitemage
-MDB from light armor, which gives more than heavy armor
-Shell V, which is alone ~25% magic damage taken less
-several bloodpacts like earthen armor, earhen ward, ...

+ you can cure yourself over and over again, with bloodpacts or elementals or with subjob

Looking into BST now:

....nothing

[bazookatooth]

Those Armor exists already.
Taeon, Despair, some Empy pieces. For ready moves you can simple switch to a full pet-set. You loose some points of Pet dt, but this is still acceptable in group content.
The problem is more located in the weapon section, here you have to decide, if you want to see a good ready move, or be able to hit with master on a D battlefield e.g..
If you stick with Ready move, you can disengage, because your hit rate will be not high enough. And this is what happened.

Sure, taeon for stuff will work for both pet and master on fodder mobs, but if you are fighting anything hard, I guarantee that you will miss the 100 acc / att that can't be augmented for both pet AND master at the same time. Not to mention the DT- and Double Attack, or the 400 TP bonus and other pet / master specific augments on the axes. Taeon has huge bonuses and will pretty much never be good for both master and pet at the same time. Despair has 1, maybe 2 pieces that are good for beast master? If you are spamming ready moves, you will almost never be in gear that enhances the master and makes it worth meleeing in the first place. If you aren't spamming ready moves, then you are basically a crappy puppet master and will probably never get invited to anything.


SMN has had to brave AoE's to use Rages since day one and it hasn't done them any harm, and SMN is a wet paper bag compared to BST when it comes to taking a hit.

I play summoner too. The difference between a 30 second BP timer and a 10 second Ready timer with 3 charges is like what 300% more time in AOE / melee range? Would you really invite a job that took 3X the damage of others?

[Arthos]

Sure, taeon for stuff will work for both pet and master on fodder mobs, but if you are fighting anything hard, I guarantee that you will miss the 100 acc / att that can't be augmented for both pet AND master at the same time. Not to mention the DT- and Double Attack, or the 400 TP bonus and other pet / master specific augments on the axes. Taeon has huge bonuses and will pretty much never be good for both master and pet at the same time. Despair has 1, maybe 2 pieces that are good for beast master? If you are spamming ready moves, you will almost never be in gear that enhances the master and makes it worth meleeing in the first place. If you aren't spamming ready moves, then you are basically a crappy puppet master and will probably never get invited to anything.


I see what you mean.

I'd like to welcome a setup, where you can engage, loose some pet's power, but still pull ahead slightly overall. To motivate the masters to engage.

Forcing them into AoE range everytime seems to be wrong.

Yes, the weaponslots are the problem. For TP you can concentrate on master's stats and some pet dt. Taeon would be: acc/att, TA or DW, Pet: DT
The pets have higer base stats, they can cap hitrate way easier than the master. And if not, it's not a huge problem, their main dmg comes from ready move.
For ready move just switch into pet att/acc gear.

But as you said, you want to wear Pet ATT/ACC/Tp-bonus axes for ready move, because the difference in damage is big. But with these weapons you cant hit melee standard for the master accuracy wise.
Pld is in a similar spot there, but it got the acc-bonus from enlight to close this gap.

So something like this, please. It wouldnt be overpowered, since you loose Charmer's merlin when engaged. But you win a working DD, who can both, engage, and deal a bit more dmg, or stand at range, deal a bit less but therefore pet has more dt and can ready more often.

Short: Need a weapon with accuracy/attack for master and pet + TP Bonus for pet. It seems like a buff, but actually it's not one, it just opens the possibility for melee bst DD.

[Ulth]

Short: Need a weapon with accuracy/attack for master and pet + TP Bonus for pet. It seems like a buff, but actually it's not one, it just opens the possibility for melee bst DD.

You know what would be a great solution for this? If mythic weapons were adjusted with how powerful the 119 weapons are now in mind. If Aymur got some more base damage attack and accuracy it would be exactly like you described.

[Arthos]

You know what would be a great solution for this? If mythic weapons were adjusted with how powerful the 119 weapons are now in mind. If Aymur got some more base damage attack and accuracy it would be exactly like you described.

It should be easier to get than Aymur i think. And weaker for Pet moves, just as good as the skirmish weapons when augmented. Because at the moment every serious bst get headaches when thinking about giving up their dmg, only to wear some acc for master. Atleast i do.

[Ulth]

It should be easier to get than Aymur i think. And weaker for Pet moves, just as good as the skirmish weapons when augmented. Because at the moment every serious bst get headaches when thinking about giving up their dmg, only to wear some acc for master. Atleast i do.

Just as good as the skirmish weapons when augmented? Then why not just augment some skirmish axes with atk/acc and pet: tp bonus? They are on different slots after all.

[bazookatooth]

I see what you mean.

I'd like to welcome a setup, where you can engage, loose some pet's power, but still pull ahead slightly overall. To motivate the masters to engage.

Forcing them into AoE range everytime seems to be wrong.

Yes, the weaponslots are the problem. For TP you can concentrate on master's stats and some pet dt. Taeon would be: acc/att, TA or DW, Pet: DT
The pets have higer base stats, they can cap hitrate way easier than the master. And if not, it's not a huge problem, their main dmg comes from ready move.
For ready move just switch into pet att/acc gear.

But as you said, you want to wear Pet ATT/ACC/Tp-bonus axes for ready move, because the difference in damage is big. But with these weapons you cant hit melee standard for the master accuracy wise.
Pld is in a similar spot there, but it got the acc-bonus from enlight to close this gap.

So something like this, please. It wouldnt be overpowered, since you loose Charmer's merlin when engaged. But you win a working DD, who can both, engage, and deal a bit more dmg, or stand at range, deal a bit less but therefore pet has more dt and can ready more often.

Short: Need a weapon with accuracy/attack for master and pet + TP Bonus for pet. It seems like a buff, but actually it's not one, it just opens the possibility for melee bst DD.

If you use pet ready moves on time (every 10 seconds), you will be in the ready timer / ready damage gear probably 30-40% of the time due to animation delay etc. and locked form doing melee damage on the master. Not using the ready axe cuts pet damage by ~50%. No axe is going to give the master stats that compensate for that. Not using the ready legs is another ~50%. No leg armor is going to give the master stats that compensate for that. Between the two slots, the pet loses 8-14% DT- and / or TP Bonus, ACC / ATT from the axe and the master loses 22 damage per axe etc. These are huge differences in damage output that can't be compensated without completely ruining BSTs ability to solo by nerfing the crap out of pet damage. And even if BST somehow got to fight on the front line... There are a plethora of other jobs that can do that better. Absolutely no reason to complicate things with a pet job. Don't believe me? Ask any puppetmaster how often they get allowed in events. Or better yet, just do a /sea all and see how many there are. It's not because the job isn't fun. It's because the perfect balance between pet and master doesn't exist on hard content. It's either a great pet or none at all.

TLDR; There is absolutely no chance that SE will make an adjustment that forces beastmaster to fight along side it's pet and still be desired in any content. If they do that, I guarantee that no one will invite bst any more and not only that, soloing will become more difficult to boot.

[Arthos]

Just as good as the skirmish weapons when augmented? Then why not just augment some skirmish axes with atk/acc and pet: tp bonus? They are on different slots after all.

Would be possible, but normally you would want pet acc and pet att too on ready move also. This is the problem i was talking about, it's either master stats or pet stats, but we need both on weapons. You can switch gear, but not weapons. Have no idea why SE dont see this. I mean, yes they added some hybrid axes, but not good enough to replace skirmish weapons. They could do it easily, wouldnt be op, because you loose 5s on timer.

[Ulth]

If you use pet ready moves on time (every 10 seconds), you will be in the ready timer / ready damage gear probably 30-40% of the time due to animation delay etc. and locked form doing melee damage on the master. Not using the ready axe cuts pet damage by ~50%. No axe is going to give the master stats that compensate for that. Not using the ready legs is another ~50%. No leg armor is going to give the master stats that compensate for that. Between the two slots, the pet loses 8-14% DT- and / or TP Bonus, ACC / ATT from the axe and the master loses 22 damage per axe etc. These are huge differences in damage output that can't be compensated without completely ruining BSTs ability to solo by nerfing the crap out of pet damage. And even if BST somehow got to fight on the front line... There are a plethora of other jobs that can do that better. Absolutely no reason to complicate things with a pet job. Don't believe me? Ask any puppetmaster how often they get allowed in events. Or better yet, just do a /sea all and see how many there are. It's not because the job isn't fun. It's because the perfect balance between pet and master doesn't exist on hard content. It's either a great pet or none at all.

TLDR; There is absolutely no chance that SE will make an adjustment that forces beastmaster to fight along side it's pet and still be desired in any content. If they do that, I guarantee that no one will invite bst any more and not only that, soloing will become more difficult to boot.

Sounds like the problem is 1 charge ready moves are too strong and 2 and 3 charge moves are too weak. Really making 2 and 3 charge moves stronger would make bst more appealing for party play because they have better skillchain properties that other party members could take advantage of. Also they wouldn't have to stop auto attacking every 10 seconds. Of course that won't actually work because if they made it so a tp move that takes 30 seconds do as much weaponskill damage as another job can do in 30 seconds of weaponskill spamming people will cry nerf. People see big numbers and it scares them, they don't quite grasp the concept of the "per second" part of dps.

[Arthos]

If you use pet ready moves on time (every 10 seconds), you will be in the ready timer / ready damage gear probably 30-40% of the time due to animation delay etc. and locked form doing melee damage on the master.

If melee you could do it only every 15s. You would be in ready move set for 2 sec. Animation delay is a bit annyoing, yes. It's also not good for the action feeling.



Not using the ready axe cuts pet damage by ~50%.

That is why they should add excellent master stats combined with pet stats on axes.
But you also win master dmg, and sc with pet is fun when it does enough damage. But you are right, that point requires testings, because it should be a bit higher overall than just standing at the side. A bit only.


Not using the ready legs is another ~50%.

You can always use them. macro is:

/equipset readyrecast
/pet "whatevermove" <me>
/wait 1
/equipset petdamage
/wait 1
/equipset TP



Between the two slots, the pet loses 8-14% DT- and / or TP Bonus, ACC / ATT from the axe and the master loses 22 damage per axe etc. These are huge differences in damage output that can't be compensated without completely ruining BSTs ability to solo by nerfing the crap out of pet damage.

Totally agree. And again, better axes are required. Here's the main problem.



And even if BST somehow got to fight on the front line... There are a plethora of other jobs that can do that better.

This is SE's job to balance that out. Master and pet damage calculated together should be around the same other DD's do.



Absolutely no reason to complicate things with a pet job. Don't believe me? Ask any puppetmaster how often they get allowed in events. Or better yet, just do a /sea all and see how many there are. It's not because the job isn't fun. It's because the perfect balance between pet and master doesn't exist on hard content. It's either a great pet or none at all.

It's not complicated with a pet job. Problem is more, that other buffs are required. So you leave half of the job unbuffed. GEO or RDM are better for mixed setups.



TLDR; There is absolutely no chance that SE will make an adjustment that forces beastmaster to fight along side it's pet and still be desired in any content. If they do that, I guarantee that no one will invite bst any more and not only that, soloing will become more difficult to boot.

They should'nt force bst to do so, but it should be possible. If they really force it, then i think you are right, noone will invite bst and bst also looses ability to solo some content. Reducing the range you can fire off your readymove would kill the job.

If they are clever, they give us good weapon choice to motivate bst to engage. A DD wants to be good, he will mostly trying to deal the best damage.

Another good idea would be maybe to look into the mob designs to look for the reason, why melee not allowed anymore. Stuff like AoE stun, encumbering, instant death, .... I dont know if this is the fun players hoping for.

[Draylo-]

Bazookatooth is still trying hard to persuade SE to not nerf BST. Anyone can see how OP it is atm, the nerf of ready range isn't enough, the timer needs the nerf.

[Arthos]

It need to be nerfed into the ground to get rid of all these bandwagon bst. Sadly.

[Draylo-]

I agree :)

[Malthar]

Bazookatooth is still trying hard to persuade SE to not nerf BST. Anyone can see how OP it is atm, the nerf of ready range isn't enough, the timer needs the nerf.

Dear sweet, sweet Draylo. Go play with your blu. :-)

I must say, I do miss going in there and mixing it up with my pet, but the master is considerably weaker than the pet. What needs to be done is what the community suggested in the first place. If you're going to nerf the pet then buff the master, and for goodness sakes, give us a good shield that will replace the charmer's merlin.

[Gwydion]

I think that any job combination that becomes more powertful will always have the bandwagon effect.

That's not a reason to nerf it.

As the game continues to evolve, we should embrace and encourage positive changes across all jobs --not harbor resentment.

If WAR99/SMN49 could out DD a SAM, people would switch to that and the pitchforks would rise.

[bazookatooth]

Bazookatooth is still trying hard to persuade SE to not nerf BST. Anyone can see how OP it is atm, the nerf of ready range isn't enough, the timer needs the nerf.

They should quadruple BP timers on summoner and only allow them when the summoner has their weapon drawn in melee range too. And WHM is OP healing from a safe distance. Let's make them melee too. All jobs should be front line. Doing stuff at a safe distance is OP. And SAM, NIN, DNC and thf need like a 10 second animation lock on every weapon skill. They shouldn't be able to solo skillchain. And lets make those rangers melee too. Doesn't seem fair that they can do just as much damage from the same distance as bst. Better fix that now before Draylo get's mad. While we're at it, BLU has too much AOE. Let's make all those spells conal like BST. Nah, that's still too OP. Let's increase the casting time to like 30 seconds...

[Arthos]

I think that any job combination that becomes more powertful will always have the bandwagon effect.

That's not a reason to nerf it.

As the game continues to evolve, we should embrace and encourage positive changes across all jobs --not harbor resentment.

If WAR99/SMN49 could out DD a SAM, people would switch to that and the pitchforks would rise.

You are right. It's more the dedication into a job anyway which makes or breakes your performance. Experience, gear and jobpoints makes every job strong. There's no reason to play a bandwagon anymore, but tell that people.

[Ulth]

Looks like bst won't be complaining about accuracy being a problem any more. Unless the update has the typo instead of Grekumah. Sheesh -40% evasion? You could actually still hit with charmer's merlin.

[Grekumah]

Looks like bst won't be complaining about accuracy being a problem any more. Unless the update has the typo instead of Grekumah. Sheesh -40% evasion? You could actually still hit with charmer's merlin.

The text within the Version Update notes was incorrect. I have edited the notes to reflect the correct information which you can find below.




Beastmaster

The effects of Infrasonics used by the following familiars has undergone adjustments.

Warlike Patrick / Audacious Anna / Lizard Familiar / Coldblood Como

Adjustments

Enemy evasion has been changed from -25% to -40.
Accuracy has been increased.


The effects of Hi-Freq Field used by the following familiars has undergone changes.
Hurler Percival / Panzer Galahad / Beetle Familiar

Adjustments

Enemy evasion has been changed from -25% to -40.
Accuracy has been increased.







Thanks for pointing this out.

[dasva]

Bazookatooth is still trying hard to persuade SE to not nerf BST. Anyone can see how OP it is atm, the nerf of ready range isn't enough, the timer needs the nerf.
Since at this point I'm 99.9% this is really satire (because there is no way anyone can actually think that makes sense) and we all got taken by poe's law...


What they need to do is nerf blu...

[Ulth]

Yeah a lot of people seem to just not realize how freaking awesome blu is. The gifts and job points are making them even better. Probably because for every amazing blu who knows what they are doing there are 100 lol blus who make everyone else look bad. However it's not like they can nerf sword weaponskills because pld has enough trouble with dealing damage as it is.

[Draylo-]

Now people are pet burning everything, 70+ BST on server at all times. Remember when people brought THF to unm and people raged? Remember how fast SE nerfed thf?

[dasva]

Right now 58 bst 54 blu online. Nerf blu

[Draylo-]

I don't see where BLU came into this discussion at all.

[dasva]

Blu can deal dmg at range completely safely like bst and can do it with physical or all 8 elements of magic. Nerf blu

[Draylo-]

Please keep on topic as its about BST, you are bringing irrelevant posts up at this point. Thanks.

[Siviard]

I agree, BLU is incredibly overpowered and deserves a bit of the nerf bat. Nerf BLU, Development Team!

And Draylo, the topic of this discussion is nerfing jobs. So Dasva is on topic and his post is relevant.

[dasva]

This is a topic about whether or not 1 job needs a nerf. Said discussions are by their nature about comparing to other jobs as it is a question of balance. Especially when it's about the supposed overwhelming strengths that are brought. So it's at least as relevant as fairy tales about impossible to match dps and such

[Ulth]

Blu is pretty much the most OP job right now, and is more versatile than any other job. I don't think it needs nerf though. It is funny to see the person most vocal about bst being nerfed being on the job that is actually most powerful. Sort of reminds me when sams were begging for thf to be nerfed.

Still not a fan of the way bst is played though and wish it was more focused on the master's damage instead of just having the player wave around stat sticks at the pet. Jumalik Helm looks good for cloudsplitter though. 20 mab and people have seen augments on it with another 15 for a total of 35. However I have a feeling SE was more thinking of it as a magic burst piece for pld. More plds taking advantage of holy 2 is pretty awesome as well.

[Hoshi]

Oh! This topic is about jobs that start with the letter B? Atm we have 67 BST, 58 BLU, 57 BLM, and 31 BRD online. It looks like they need to buff bard!

[Vinedrai]

And Draylo, the topic of this discussion is nerfing jobs. So Dasva is on topic and his post is relevant.

Um... No. The topic is about bst. See the thread title?

Anyway, it is true that BLU is potentially pretty strong. The key word here is "potentially". You need really good augments for TP, WS, nuking and partly DT sets to consider yourself an OP BLU (which also applies to BST pet gear). The main difference is Ready spam is just ridicilously strong, mostly due to its timer. BLU for safe physical damage? BLU can't get close to that with dart at all.


Blu can deal dmg at range completely safely like bst and can do it with physical or all 8 elements of magic. Nerf blu

You should also consider the fact that most of the BLU nukes have short ranges and/or long recasts.

Why would you bring a BLU for magic damage to NM fights anyway? BLM and SCH do it much better with less sacrifice/effort, or a GEO considering it also brings buffs/debuffs to support other nukers. You need safe physical damage? Why would you bring a BLU when there are BSTs or RNGs. There is also SMN which can potentially deal stupidly high spike damage and also release, resummon any time to avoid having their pets riddled with debuffs or not worry about their death.

BLU shines at roaming due to its versatility (such as in Yorcia Skirmish) and close-range DPS. If you really want to argue for it in a thread about BST for whatever reason, you should stop for a second and think where BLU stands in the game. If anything, BLU competes with other close-range DPS jobs and in some cases, nukers, not BST, not even remotely.

[dasva]

Oh... yeah I thought it was obvious I wasn't being completely serious :(. Was largely in response to the whole bst is the best at all DDing and tanking and staying out of range and idk everything but support by someone who is blu crazy

Though for a serious answer to the why not other nukers possibly for light/dark. But yeah it's mostly the way it can switch between everything and even req which gets around most dmg gimmicks and it's self sufficiently and just the sheer melee potential. Savage blade is almost as good as rudra's now

[machini]

"Nerf the job that is doing better than my favorite job!"
"What do you mean, my favorite job is OP and should be nerfed! Waaah"

[Draylo-]

You can single me out and keep attacking all you'd like, it just shows your immaturity. There are plenty of others who share my viewpoint and you aren't preventing anything by trying to stifle my opinion. One major factor is the JP are complaining, you can paint me as the Grinch and person who is spearheading the anti-BST movement all you would like but it won't change anything.

[dasva]

It's the internet you can always get a few people to agree with you no matter how wrong you are. Plenty of other people know you are wildly exaggerating and that is being generous at times. I mean seriously basically the everyone responding on bg is telling you you are wrong

And cmon you are spearheading the anti-bst movement on the English side.

Btw 44 bst 52 blu on... but yeah clearly everyone just plays bst <.<

[Draylo-]

"Basically everyone responding on BG" is all BSTs that have their jimmies rustled because something negative about BST was said. Even in this new content they can toss pets at NMs and sit back and spam curing items and clear faster than DD oriented groups. You are the one downplaying their potential just to try and make it seem like it isn't as bad as it is. No I'm not doing any anti-BST movement, I've posted my opinion in this thread and a couple times on BG when someone tried to stop people from brainstorming strategies by saying "just toss pets at it!" Otherwise I don't even mention it. Then you bring your entire LS in here to rate your posts up and respond with silly comments about other jobs and wanting them nerfed, to retaliate against my opinion. Sounds like someone is scared and being really immature.

[Malthar]

Actually, the new content is all about smn.

[Tidis]

Actually, the new content is all about smn.

People in my LS have been doing Sinister Reign with BST in the DD slots, relying on RNG if they can't get BST, not to mention escha is always resorting to BST.

BST everything.

[Ulth]

People in my LS have been doing Sinister Reign with BST in the DD slots, relying on RNG if they can't get BST, not to mention escha is always resorting to BST.

BST everything.

This is mostly to do with safety. Pet jobs and rng are less likely to die. People are saying because of this they need to nerf bst's damage which is the wrong approach. The problem is players have too little hp. So instead the solution is buff players hp so the front line isn't always a death sentence. As an example in Sinister reign one of the bosses does a thousand needle like move that splits 9999 damage across everyone it hits. The damage is unavoidable and is not affected by any sort of damage taken reduction, not earthen armor, not scherzo, not migiwari. So to survive without pets everyone has to stack up and split the 9999 damage 6 ways. Which still does almost all the hp of a player. Bst pets need 3 to soak up all that damage.

[bazookatooth]

People in my LS have been doing Sinister Reign with BST in the DD slots, relying on RNG if they can't get BST, not to mention escha is always resorting to BST.

BST everything.

FWIW, I've done about 60 runs in SR so far and RNG do just as much damage as the bst pets from the same safe distance. Perhaps your LS has a lot more well geared BST than RNG. Like Ulth said, the problem is that Player HP hasn't increased on par with NM damage output. Combine that with the fact that DDs are dumb and never wear DT- gear because it might marginally affect their Epeen damage numbers and you get what you have here. Take a look at the good BSTs. They have almost nothing but Pet DT- gear on. And I've been doing Escha NMs with sams, THfs, BLMs etc. just fine. Just because you haven't tried it doesn't mean it doesn't work.

And for people saying that comments about other jobs are off topic, I'll leave you with this quote from the very first post in this thread:




Please strengthen other jobs rather than nerfing BST.

[Ulth]

FWIW, I've done about 60 runs in SR so far and RNG do just as much damage as the bst pets from the same safe distance. Perhaps your LS has a lot more well geared BST than RNG. Like Ulth said, the problem is that Player HP hasn't increased on par with NM damage output. Combine that with the fact that DDs are dumb and never wear DT- gear because it might marginally affect their Epeen damage numbers and you get what you have here. Take a look at the good BSTs. They have almost nothing but Pet DT- gear on. And I've been doing Escha NMs with sams, THfs, BLMs etc. just fine. Just because you haven't tried it doesn't mean it doesn't work.

And for people saying that comments about other jobs are off topic, I'll leave you with this quote from the very first post in this thread:

Well the thing with the pet DT- is actually another reason why people think bst needs a nerf. Since pets really don't have a need for tp, their damage isn't hindered as much from full timing a damage taken set. Where as if I were to use my pdt set on thf my accuracy would hit the floor as most of thf's dt set is skirmish 1 armor and emet harness which its accuracy varies based on if you are in the popular unity or not.

Also even with throwing all my kindred seals and login points at savory shanks I am still without a defending ring.

[Tidis]

If you're suggesting other jobs need to be strengthened wouldn't that suggest you accept BST is stronger than other jobs atm despite all the protests and claims that it isn't. I'm not saying I disagree but it's not SEs way to strengthen other jobs, the whole Rudra's Storm fiasco is a testament to that.

[machini]

If you're suggesting other jobs need to be strengthened wouldn't that suggest you accept BST is stronger than other jobs atm despite all the protests and claims that it isn't. I'm not saying I disagree but it's not SEs way to strengthen other jobs, the whole Rudra's Storm fiasco is a testament to that.

No. that's not what it means at all.

What it means is "I don't think there's anything wrong with X, but people who play far more powerful jobs are complaining that job X is suddenly popular. Job X is going to get nerfed, which I don't think it deserves, because of a loud but vocal minority who are upset something is stealing the limelight from their baby. Instead of nerfing a job which I think is perfectly fine, I would rather see jobs which I think already either fine as they are or OP get buffed to make them OP or even more OP, respectively, than see a decent job ground into the dust because of a few jealous BLUs."

[machini]

And the "Rudra's Storm" fiasco was that THFs were doing really high spike damage (making really big numbers). Meanwhile, jobs like SAM, that do much total damage over time (lots of smaller numbers that add up to more than the one or two big numbers) saw THFs making really big numbers when properly buffed and employing job abilities and positioning, and got very, very upset. All a SAM needs to do to do good damage, assuming they and the THF are equally well geared, are buffs. The THF needs buffs, another party member, and job abilities to use that require that other party member. All a SAM has to do is "get buffed, spam Fudo every 3-4 seconds" and do more damage than a THF did holding 3kTP to do a SATA or SA or TA Rudra's Storm once a minute.

[dasva]

"Basically everyone responding on BG" is all BSTs that have their jimmies rustled because something negative about BST was said. Even in this new content they can toss pets at NMs and sit back and spam curing items and clear faster than DD oriented groups. You are the one downplaying their potential just to try and make it seem like it isn't as bad as it is. No I'm not doing any anti-BST movement, I've posted my opinion in this thread and a couple times on BG when someone tried to stop people from brainstorming strategies by saying "just toss pets at it!" Otherwise I don't even mention it. Then you bring your entire LS in here to rate your posts up and respond with silly comments about other jobs and wanting them nerfed, to retaliate against my opinion. Sounds like someone is scared and being really immature.

More like they are tired of you're trying to stir up anti-bst sentiment. People mention throwing pet bodies at something to soak up dmg or have something left after that dumb 9999 dmg move but that actually using pet strategies can result in much longer kills if they aren't well geared and you go off the deep end with omg this means pet jobs are OP and everyone tells you to shut it to the point where you get warnings for it.

And I don't tell my ls to do anything and only 2 ever post (1 of which I thought was still banned) so yeah pretty sure it's more than that rating me up. But it's really cute that you actually think about this so much that you come up with this kind of stuff and have to actually try to attack my character.

And the stuff about other jobs is satire. I don't actually think these jobs should be nerfed... I'm merely pointing out how they can compare to and surpass jugs. If one job should be nerfed for 1 reason then other jobs that can do the same should also be. Or neither should. And I think that's what really scares you about comparing other jobs... because in reality other jobs actually do compare and when everyone sees other jobs can do similar things then they all need nerfs or none do

PS. You keep saying you are just stating your opinions about bst and such... but is that really it? I mean look back at your posts... half of them are about other players and not the game or bst. How many times have you said so and so is trying too hard, or trying to cover up how good bst really is, or only saying that because they use bst a lot, or just because they are a pet ls, or are immature and scared etc. You quite frequently talk about the players motives or character vice anything about the game. While admittedly some people including myself have stretched the topic some at least it was about the game. And yes I have recently stooped down some to also respond in kind in the heat of the moment. And I'm sorry. So could we start keeping the discussion about the actual game from now on?

[dasva]

Well the thing with the pet DT- is actually another reason why people think bst needs a nerf. Since pets really don't have a need for tp, their damage isn't hindered as much from full timing a damage taken set. Where as if I were to use my pdt set on thf my accuracy would hit the floor as most of thf's dt set is skirmish 1 armor and emet harness which its accuracy varies based on if you are in the popular unity or not.

Also even with throwing all my kindred seals and login points at savory shanks I am still without a defending ring.

While somewhat true part of that is being on light DD gear. But there are some ways to compensate like taking advantage of offensive/defensive buffs that pets don't get. Well except on those dispel spamming nms.

But yeah light DDs will have the hardest times and need some more hybrid sets. Heavy DDs will have better hybrid options, mages and ranged jobs will just stay away and pup/bst can put pet dt and acc together on a lot of pieces and smn only needs to keep their avatar alive for a few seconds a minute while it's in range and then doesn't care if it dies after.... well melee mages would have a hard time too but yeah...

Dring droprate is an issue as well but is somewhat comparable to tons of duskorbs. Both can cost a ton of money and you can still fail to improve your dt setup. Though a tad easier to buy stones than shanks last I checked

[Ulth]

Well traditionally light DD is suppose to have their own way of negating damage. This would fall under the evasion skill, but that is so useless I don't even have any idea on where to start to make it useful. Adjusting every piece of light DD gear to what evasion should have been seems like too much work. Increasing the amount of evasion from the evasion bonus trait could be bad for players if monsters with it also get an increase. Then there are all the tp moves that just can't be dodged or parried.

Also I have to say I hate it that knockback moves knock me back even when they do miss.

[dasva]

Well traditionally light DD is suppose to have their own way of negating damage. This would fall under the evasion skill, but that is so useless I don't even have any idea on where to start to make it useful. Adjusting every piece of light DD gear to what evasion should have been seems like too much work. Increasing the amount of evasion from the evasion bonus trait could be bad for players if monsters with it also get an increase. Then there are all the tp moves that just can't be dodged or parried.

Also I have to say I hate it that knockback moves knock me back even when they do miss.Even adjusting each armor wouldn't really be enough. I remember seeing a testing awhile back on I think it was the Wrathare or some other high lvl nm and even with tons of evasion gear and multiple evasion buffs and -acc debuffs it still capped hit rate on the players. More anecdotal but I play pld a lot and I tend to still get hit most the time even when flash is up. It seems like SE designs high lvl nms these days to be able to hit basically no matter what. Which I find rather sad.... I kind of miss evasion/blink tanking on thf and nin but seems SE is scared to death of it which I don't understand... I mean it still wont even come close to pld or run survivability even with capped evasion so why make evading so hard? While I understand maybe doing it for some nms as something special... I mean after all they make some unblockable or unparryable it seems like the massive accuracy has been applied to all high lvl content

As far as knockback yeah... apparently if anyone gets hit everyone gets knockedback and that is supposedly working as intended....

[Ulth]

The thing is that person might have been on the threshold of actually being evasive. The difference between capped accuracy and floored accuracy is something like 150. which was a pretty sizable gap at level 75, but a very small window at 119. However if they were to do something about evasion so light DD could use it for survival you shouldn't need every buff and debuff to make it happen. Most of buffs that have a limit on which you could choose like brd, cor, and geo are already going towards attack and accuracy. It would be nice if a ninja could just cap evasion on a nm with Kurayami: Ni. Or maybe even make Blade: Kamu not the worst thing ever. One hit, 1 ftp, -10 accuracy, I can't believe it didn't see some sort of upgrade during the one hand update.

[bazookatooth]

If you're suggesting other jobs need to be strengthened wouldn't that suggest you accept BST is stronger than other jobs atm despite all the protests and claims that it isn't. I'm not saying I disagree but it's not SEs way to strengthen other jobs, the whole Rudra's Storm fiasco is a testament to that.

BLU is incredibly powerful and just as popular as BST right now. Practically nothing get's done without a PLD while NIN and RUN sit in a corner. WHM is in every single party. SAM is still the king of front line Damage. Mages can still blow up everything from a safe distance. I've seen RNGs from your server brag about out damaging well geared BSTs in Escha and Sinister Reign.

Pets are better at one thing. Staying alive. That is a symptom of bad HP / Def scaling and bad enemy attack scaling. If they nerf BST, people will use SMN or RNG or SCH instead (I posted videos of SCH and SMN soloing all kinds of things like Delve, AA fights and Escha NMs in this thread and received a 10 day ban for it. gotta love the OF. ) and those jobs will (according to your logic) be overpowered and need to be nerfed because other jobs will still suck at staying alive. Eventually, as the nerf train continues, all jobs have an equal chance of getting one shotted because no job is allowed to have better defensive techniques and then nothing get's played any more but whatever job does the most damage (let's be honest, it'll be SAM).

I've done every piece of content in the game without BSTs just fine. I have people in my LS who flat out refuse to bring a BST to anything because they are butthurt like the other posters here. I just switch to RNG, SAM, THF, DNC, MNK, BLU, BLM or GEO and laugh at the banality of it all. Someone is always butt hurt because their favorite job isn't automatically given a spot in every single piece of content and they have to Job Change once in a while.



Well the thing with the pet DT- is actually another reason why people think bst needs a nerf. Since pets really don't have a need for tp, their damage isn't hindered as much from full timing a damage taken set. Where as if I were to use my pdt set on thf my accuracy would hit the floor as most of thf's dt set is skirmish 1 armor and emet harness which its accuracy varies based on if you are in the popular unity or not.

Also even with throwing all my kindred seals and login points at savory shanks I am still without a defending ring.

Just based on Skirmish gear, my pet gives up 8% crit rate on axes and 35 strength or 25% haste to get DT- on those armor pieces. Or another 20 ACC and 20 ATT if I used the anwig salade instead of despair helm. I lose another 5% double attack for the DT- earrings. Contrary to what you believe, TP does matter. Which is why you see BSTs spending millions on TP bonus axes.

Physical:
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Ipetam -4%
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Lithelimb_Cap -3%
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Twilight_Torque -5%
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Emet_Harness_%2B1 -6%
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Qaaxo_Mitaines -3%
https://www.bg-wiki.com/index.php/Buremte_Gloves Phys-4% M - 2%
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Defending_Ring DT-10%
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Patricius_Ring -5%
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Kaabnax_Trousers -4%
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Qaaxo_Leggings -3%

A magical set is easier to build, but could be harder to make use of depending what you're fighting.

D. Ring: I did about 5 mil a day (about 7 hours total per day) in salvage runs and bought shanks for my mule. It took me about 10 days (@50 shanks) to get him one. I was unlucky. Based on 5% drop rate, it should take most people less than half that time. Even if you do one salvage run a day, it should take less than a month. If you don't have one, you should drop what you're doing and work on it. It's should be in your end game gear sets for literally every job in the game. If you are incredibly unlucky and never get one despite trying all these years, that sucks and I feel for you, but the game shouldn't be balanced around your bad luck.

With the exception of the D. Ring, pretty much every item on that list can be obtained in roughly an hour (Give or take, depending on luck). That's about 44% PDT- with very minimal loss of Acc. Even with a dark ring in place of the D ring, it's 40%. Is it the best damage output gear? No. But it's still good enough to hit just about anything that you would hit in your regular TP set using the appropriate buffs and food for that level of content and an alive DD does 100% more damage than a Dead one.

And other jobs like SAM etc. have even better options for mixing DT- with TP sets.


Like I said and keep saying, other jobs are better than BST at everything in the game except soaking damage. A simple change to defense or HP scaling could even that out to where front line jobs wouldn't die all the time and BST would be back on equal footing in the events where it is used.

[machini]

DDs not understanding -DT gear is something that has made me literally slam my head into a wall over because nothing else, even though there was no one to see, could express my sheer frustration with the situation. It doesn't matter how much theoretical damage you can do if you're eating dirt because you got hit once and died, while the person in DT gear who "only" has 80% of your theoretical damage output does two orders of magnitude more damage than you do -- because you're eating dirt.

I understand BST has more problems with this than other jobs, due to needing to gear both the pet and the master, but one can pretty easily get 21 DT between a good Dark Ring, a D Ring, and Twilight Torque, which increases your 'effective' HP by ~26%. Which doesn't sound like much, but that's the difference between a 1500 damage move killing you at 1400 HP, or surviving with 215 HP and getting healed or backing out until you're healed. Too many people have problems understanding that. And now, to stop derailing the thread.

[Ulth]

Bazooka, I don't like to repeat myself. Gaining tp for pets does not matter. I went over this before in this very thread. If a ready move is used when the pet has less than 1000 tp it's still treated as having 1000 tp. But you know thanks for proving my point about not a lot of damage taken options by compiling a list of old gear, some of which aren't even 119. You would think with 2 new escha zones, and a whole new event some would have been added. Rawhide path b could of had pdt, but they went with evasion instead for all the good 20 evasion would do. Maybe Adhemar will have some pdt in the augments, never know. As for defending ring I'm way past 50 shanks at this point.

[saevel]

BST way overpowered right now. Doing high damage is fine, having high survivability is fine, having minimal gear requirement is fine, having low skill curve is fine, but having all of those rolled into a single job is most definitely not fine. BST is the functional equivalent of a minimally geared SAM doing 20K fudos from 20 yalms away non-stop with full TP, WS and DT gear equipped full time. That's how ridiculous it's getting. Making pets super powerful and have higher stats then a full geared 119 player should not of happened at the same time as lowering ready's recast and turning it into a charge system. Should of been one or the other, not both.

Basically BST's pets are iLevel 120+ players. People know this, those abusing this heavily really know this and they love it. They can clear all their content easily with fairly little effort, get their drops and move on.

Now if SE makes ready have a three to five yalm range, then I could live with that. BST's would have to be sitting next to their pet and be subject to the exact same damage every other melee suffers from. They would still do crazy damage, but there would be risk involved in doing so.

If anything thinks this would "destroy BST", then that demonstrates how OP it is right now. Every other melee has to deal with damaging AOE's, status effects and survivability while still dealing less damage then a gimp poorly geared BST. Otherwise your nothing but a SAM doing 20K fudo's from twenty yalms away, and claiming it's "fair".

[bazookatooth]

BST way overpowered right now. Doing high damage is fine, having high survivability is fine, having minimal gear requirement is fine, having low skill curve is fine, but having all of those rolled into a single job is most definitely not fine. BST is the functional equivalent of a minimally geared SAM doing 20K fudos from 20 yalms away non-stop with full TP, WS and DT gear equipped full time. That's how ridiculous it's getting. Making pets super powerful and have higher stats then a full geared 119 player should not of happened at the same time as lowering ready's recast and turning it into a charge system. Should of been one or the other, not both.

Basically BST's pets are iLevel 120+ players. People know this, those abusing this heavily really know this and they love it. They can clear all their content easily with fairly little effort, get their drops and move on.

Now if SE makes ready have a three to five yalm range, then I could live with that. BST's would have to be sitting next to their pet and be subject to the exact same damage every other melee suffers from. They would still do crazy damage, but there would be risk involved in doing so.

If anything thinks this would "destroy BST", then that demonstrates how OP it is right now. Every other melee has to deal with damaging AOE's, status effects and survivability while still dealing less damage then a gimp poorly geared BST. Otherwise your nothing but a SAM doing 20K fudo's from twenty yalms away, and claiming it's "fair".


As has been demonstrated in this thread numerous times already, SAM far outpaces pets in the damage department. If yours doesn't, try to be better. My sam completely destroys my pets on anything that I use it for and my BST is better than most. I highly suggest that you stop advertising how bad you are at DD jobs on the net.

RNG does just as much damage as bst from the exact same range while planting all the hate on the tank and applying treasure hunter. BLM the same. Scholar can even make it's own skill chains to magic burst off for huge damage. BLU can do damn near everything. SMN damage goes all the way to cap. Dancer does incredible damage and barely suffered from the Rudra's nerf while being incredibly durable due to abilities and self curing. I could go on and on. Get better at the game.


Bazooka, I don't like to repeat myself. Gaining tp for pets does not matter. I went over this before in this very thread. If a ready move is used when the pet has less than 1000 tp it's still treated as having 1000 tp. But you know thanks for proving my point about not a lot of damage taken options by compiling a list of old gear, some of which aren't even 119. You would think with 2 new escha zones, and a whole new event some would have been added. Rawhide path b could of had pdt, but they went with evasion instead for all the good 20 evasion would do. Maybe Adhemar will have some pdt in the augments, never know. As for defending ring I'm way past 50 shanks at this point.

I don't like having to repeat myself either. Gaining TP does matter. Not as much as other jobs, but it does matter. Especially on the pets that use more than 1 charge per ready move, which are quite a few of the more powerful pets. I'm sorry, but you know less than you think you do about how the job is played. I compiled a full set of damage taken- with minimal accuracy loss. Not only that, but I demonstrated that BST makes the same sacrifices. Even more so if the master has to be in melee range as it's more or less impossible to protect both the pet and the master at the same time. You can stop repeating yourself now.

Sorry about your D.Ring, but as I have shown, you can still make a powerful DT- set without it.

[Draylo-]

Bazookatooth must you attack anyone that has an opinion opposite of yours? It makes you look really childish and afraid of it being nerfed. Let him have his opinion as he obviously doesn't agree with you. Also, not once in this thread have you demonstrated that SAM is leagues ahead of BST, not once.

[Ulth]

You can stop repeating yourself now.

Yeah pretty much, no sense in talking to a brick wall.

[kylani]

BST way overpowered right now. Doing high damage is fine, having high survivability is fine, having minimal gear requirement is fine, having low skill curve is fine, but having all of those rolled into a single job is most definitely not fine. BST is the functional equivalent of a minimally geared SAM doing 20K fudos from 20 yalms away non-stop with full TP, WS and DT gear equipped full time. That's how ridiculous it's getting. Making pets super powerful and have higher stats then a full geared 119 player should not of happened at the same time as lowering ready's recast and turning it into a charge system. Should of been one or the other, not both.

Basically BST's pets are iLevel 120+ players. People know this, those abusing this heavily really know this and they love it. They can clear all their content easily with fairly little effort, get their drops and move on.

Now if SE makes ready have a three to five yalm range, then I could live with that. BST's would have to be sitting next to their pet and be subject to the exact same damage every other melee suffers from. They would still do crazy damage, but there would be risk involved in doing so.

If anything thinks this would "destroy BST", then that demonstrates how OP it is right now. Every other melee has to deal with damaging AOE's, status effects and survivability while still dealing less damage then a gimp poorly geared BST. Otherwise your nothing but a SAM doing 20K fudo's from twenty yalms away, and claiming it's "fair".

From your comments, it doesn't sound like you've ever played BST or read many of the comments about the trade-offs of BST pet and master. The master doesn't have high survivability at all. The ready command requires that charges build up after the initial charge. You can't just spam ready attacks non-stop. Do you know how many job points the BSTs you've observed have? How much they've paid for augments that give them the great damage or the time spent getting the gear that helps? Generically saying BST is the equivalent of a minimally geared Sam is silly and made me want to disregard your post completely, but I care about the topic in general because I hate for folks like you to get the core job nerfed. If BST is as trivial to play as you say, then perhaps you should level one and do all the content easily...

I don't do end game anymore, so I don't know all that is involved with the complaints, but if the problem really is that other jobs CAN'T do the content, killing BST will just make no one able to do the content. It sounds like the content should be tweaked so other jobs can survive, or the player base should adjust their strategies/expectations.

[bazookatooth]

Bazookatooth must you attack anyone that has an opinion opposite of yours? It makes you look really childish and afraid of it being nerfed. Let him have his opinion as he obviously doesn't agree with you. Also, not once in this thread have you demonstrated that SAM is leagues ahead of BST, not once.

I did actually. I posted videos too, but people got mad and reported me and the comments were deleted. That doesn't even matter though because anyone who says they don't know about sam spamming Fudo -> light skill chains faster than the game can even display them at this point is flat out lying. Yourself included. You're not fooling anyone by pretending you don't know.

[Malthar]

My mythic sam wipes the floor with my mythic bst.

[Ulth]

Sam is op? color me shocked. I'm surprised SE hasn't given them Oisoya and Amatsu: Tsukikage so they could spam T4 Cosmic Elucidation skillchains.

[dasva]

If bsts have to stay in range isn't really the equivalent of a melee being in range. 2 things to gear dt for (made worse by the fact some visible armor pieces for bst aren't ilvl so those really hurt to be in on the other hand not using them also hurts your jug a bit). 2 things that need to be cured while only 1 is doing meaningful dmg. 2 things that can die and kill dps. At that point might as well just get a real DD ranged or otherwise who can do more dmg or the other pet jobs that wont need healing and can still deal decent or in smns case great dmg or another support job.


That was part of what made bst so undesirable before recent updates... master could deal decent dmg though couldn't keep up with real DDs (at least of similar lvl of gearing and buffs) while jug was basically just a body to snarl on if you got hate. Maybe Killer instinct to help the pt. Or occasionally doing weird things like making setups for magic dmg and doing some nice cloudsplitters but really if going for magic dmg there are better magic ws or just ya know do skillchain magic burst which is wrecking most content right now

As far tp mattering it sorta depends. Most bsts in most situations sticking to 1 charge moves... yeah they wont get enough to matter due to the 1k min thing. But there are things that can change that. For example aymur gives 500 tp in precast so anything past 500 tp when you use ready would matter. Having pet regain can also make a bit of a difference especially if you are doing an event that has a bit of running around. Using 2/3 charge moves gives you more time. Riding full pet haste with jps and gear and augmented familiar and the pig move can actually gain tp almost as fast as mediocrely melees. "precharging" meaning not using charges as soon as they are available but waiting until you are full then use all the moves to make that first one stronger. Or something stopping you from using charge moves like frequent stuns, or petrify, amnesia, sleep terror

[Arthos]

Can also nerf Corsair. You will propably not see many beastmasters in party anymore. This way it keeps atleast it's solo ability.

The wrong way still. SE is trying to give us a good game where we have to deal with challenges and tactics.
But players looking only for items and the fastest way to get them.
Good example is Sinister Reign. On Odin some japanese players established the standard setup: whm, cor, pld, geo, bst x2. Thats the only way now, if you bring a rng instead of the geo, you risk loosing people, because a run takes 3 minutes longer (that really happened).
At the end it's the playerbase which makes or breaks a game.

SE could make it easier a bit by adjusting the buff jobs in a way that hybrid parties are not a disadvantage, like the did with introducing geo.

So if you see a shout, it should be like: healer, DD, buffs plz and not so much job detailed.

[machini]

Can also nerf Corsair. You will propably not see many beastmasters in party anymore. This way it keeps atleast it's solo ability.

The wrong way still. SE is trying to give us a good game where we have to deal with challenges and tactics.
But players looking only for items and the fastest way to get them.
Good example is Sinister Reign. On Odin some japanese players established the standard setup: whm, cor, pld, geo, bst x2. Thats the only way now, if you bring a rng instead of the geo, you risk loosing people, because a run takes 3 minutes longer (that really happened).
At the end it's the playerbase which makes or breaks a game.

SE could make it easier a bit by adjusting the buff jobs in a way that hybrid parties are not a disadvantage, like the did with introducing geo.

So if you see a shout, it should be like: healer, DD, buffs plz and not so much job detailed.

I was doing some Avatar II fights on D a couple months ago, doing PLD RNG RNG WHM COR BRD. It was taking 20-25 minutes to clear them. I managed to talk the person leading the runs into letting me go DNC, started taking 10ish minutes to clear them, the two RNGs went THF, started taking 5 to 10 minutes to clear them (depending on how much time the THFs spent dead -- they had very poor survivability). This, however seemed to anger the PLD and the BRD, because, while we were clearing in less than half the amount of time that we were previously, we were 'doing it wrong'.

The playerbase is the biggest problem with this game right now. They refuse to do anything new or different. If someone finds a strategy that works, even if it's horrible, and there are better things that work, everyone sticks with that one strategy. Like people who demand two SAMs for Vagary Leg/Body runs, when two SCHs can not only do the skillchains, but then can also actually contribute on the NMs instead of standing around uselessly taking up precious alliance space.

For some things certain jobs are required, but that's mostly PLD and WHM, since most people can't fathom how to tank on RUN or DNC, or heal on anything but WHM. People who still demand MNK MNK SAM or MNK MNK MNK for DDs on Foret Delve, for an example that recently springs to mind, when my LS was getting people in spark armor or worse clears -- people who had never done it before, mind you -- with stuff like DNC THF SMN WHM BLM DRG. Same for Barney and that damn bee. But you have people who refuse to do half of the content without RNGs alternating decoy shot on PLDs, which is how every Divine Might II run I've ever been on 'had' to be done, and none of them every actually won due to constantly timing out because the RNGs have shitty damage output, but safe damage output.

As we mentioned DT sets earlier, and I complained about DDs without them, I think that is a very large part of the problem. I play with two friends, and am almost always the tank in any situation (except when one of them must be PLD because I can't tank it on DNC or RUN), and as such I have a fairly good DT set. -44PDT and -27 MDT on DNC, combined with Fan Dance (for stopping those high damage moves, if possible), means that I am extremely durable compared to most DDs. And though I might do less damage than them in full DT gear (and I do), I don't die anywhere near as often. So a lot of content where other people 'must' do with PLD and RNG I can tank and deal damage just fine.

Another part of the problem seems to be a lack of competent and well-geared WHMs, but that's another topic of discussion.

And another part, talking about party composition again, is that some people are so used to the 'only' way to do things being specific set ups that they cannot function or understand how anything else works. I trio Morimar delve with two friends as DNC WHM GEO, and some people just cannot fathom how that can possibly work (which involves Fury/Frailty, entrusted Haste, being the only DD allowing me to self chain reliably to increase damage output, and the GEO being able to self-cure so the WHM only needs to do single target cures and status removal). This is largely in part because they can't wrap their heads around 'unconventional' set ups, and partly because they just have no idea how most jobs actually work, just how they can do specific things.

[bazookatooth]

Can also nerf Corsair. You will propably not see many beastmasters in party anymore. This way it keeps atleast it's solo ability.

The wrong way still. SE is trying to give us a good game where we have to deal with challenges and tactics.
But players looking only for items and the fastest way to get them.
Good example is Sinister Reign. On Odin some japanese players established the standard setup: whm, cor, pld, geo, bst x2. Thats the only way now, if you bring a rng instead of the geo, you risk loosing people, because a run takes 3 minutes longer (that really happened).
At the end it's the playerbase which makes or breaks a game.

SE could make it easier a bit by adjusting the buff jobs in a way that hybrid parties are not a disadvantage, like the did with introducing geo.

So if you see a shout, it should be like: healer, DD, buffs plz and not so much job detailed.

Why not make your own shout? This is really popular content right now and RNG does just as well as as BST in that event.

[Arthos]

Talking about my own shout.

[Ulth]

The guy who wrote up the sinister reign guide on auction house actually tanked it on run.

[Kensagaku]

Indeed, we just did a few runs tanking in on RUN, and it went swimmingly. We've done a mix of setups; last night we did WHM GEO RUN BST BST RDM, the night before we were PLD GEO WHM BST MNK SAM, etc. Obviously the "easiest" way is to do it with multiple BSTs or RNGs or other out-of-range setups (BG was listing some nuke setups that I'd like to try sometime), but the way this content is designed you can do it with a large number of job combinations. Some of the rounds are still a pain (looking at you, Rosulatia with your adds), but overall, I'm rather impressed by an event that doesn't punish DDs as much as others. Are there some painful AoEs? Sure. But for the most part they're manageable.

[dasva]

Can also nerf Corsair. You will propably not see many beastmasters in party anymore. This way it keeps atleast it's solo ability.

The wrong way still. SE is trying to give us a good game where we have to deal with challenges and tactics.
But players looking only for items and the fastest way to get them.
Good example is Sinister Reign. On Odin some japanese players established the standard setup: whm, cor, pld, geo, bst x2. Thats the only way now, if you bring a rng instead of the geo, you risk loosing people, because a run takes 3 minutes longer (that really happened).
At the end it's the playerbase which makes or breaks a game.

My ls pretty much refuses to take bst for that and instead uses smns ... which lets you cut the cor for another smn so ends up being faster. Heck even with a couple of 115 smns they have no problem clearing lol. Of course that makes the people who only have say pld and bst mad when the pld slot is already taken lol. Another popular combo is pld whm then the rest being geo sch and blms. If you have the sch make a self skillchain for everyone to do massive MB to take off most an nms hp in 1 shot.

Given how manageable most the AoEs are (even the 9999 has been found to be manageable in a way) a melee setup should be able to survive just fine with proper support... and as noted above melee setups are much faster if you can keep them alive... it's just they sacrifice some safety for that speed which is why things like mages, pet and rng strats are so popular with new content till people learn enough about the content that they can safely melee them since slow and steady is better than fast and not sure if can win on somewhat unknown mobs