Automaton damage

[Stamos]

Really needs a boost in damage. Compared to Summoner and Beastmaster, our pet damage is extremely lackluster. Considering our automaton has to build TP and is based off the maneuvers used I think Automaton's need either a new WS, or an extreme boost in damage.

[dasva]

Should also implement the whole being able to set which ws the auto uses they were talking about a few months back. Given how much maneuvers effect dmg and/or survivability using them to change to a potentially better ws for the situation can often not really be an option.

A ja to force ws if they have tp would also help a lot since right now having them decide when to makes it hard to gear for it since it would basically mean either meleeing/idling in gear for the ws or wsing in gear more for meleeing/idling

[Roja323]

Its not that pup pets are weak, its that compared to other pet jobs, they are weak. A pup + pet combined is more damage then a lot of jobs at the moment, the issue is there is always going to be those outlier jobs (bst at the moment, sam in the past) that gain incredible power due to one update, and become the band wagon job for a while.

Pup doesn't need a lot, i would settle for better gear that doesnt gimp the master while still giving the pet haste/acc/atk/da etc

[Ulth]

Could just make it so the puppet can get enough haste/acc/atk/da from attachments, then the pup can focus on it's own gear. That's what I thought was cool about pup is that the puppet gets it's own set of equipment to wear.

[Stamos]

Its not that pup pets are weak, its that compared to other pet jobs, they are weak. A pup + pet combined is more damage then a lot of jobs at the moment, the issue is there is always going to be those outlier jobs (bst at the moment, sam in the past) that gain incredible power due to one update, and become the band wagon job for a while.

Pup doesn't need a lot, i would settle for better gear that doesnt gimp the master while still giving the pet haste/acc/atk/da etc

Augmented Taeon with triple attack +2, acc/att, and pet haste +5 will cap your automaton's gearhaste and not gimp you.


PUP is very weak right now compared to pretty much all DDs. Because as it stands right now, not only is our pet weak. But, hand to hand is awful. That is why I think our Automatons need a significant boost to catch up with other pet jobs.

[Roja323]

The issue is several fold over just increasing our pets DD.

H2h is weak
H2h weapon skills are weak
H2h weapon itemization is awful (why no OaT on our weapons)
Gear for pets makes us sacrifice something. (yes we can get haste, but our pets need haste/acc/atk/str/dex/ crit/DA etc, and any time we go for those stats, we give up master stats)
The overall developer mind set for where pup should be dd wise is mid/low range dd (we cant fix this, they see us as a utility DD since we can have a whm or rdm, which is pretty irrelevant now that we can use trusts pretty much anywhere, and they keep adding more places).

[Roja323]

Just to give an example of poor itemization.

Pup with KKK + max magic haste, is over the cap of MA. For dual wield people, they say 'we want you to plan ahead when picking gear' as their reason for not wanting to fix dual wield so that over the cap DW wont lower tp gain. So how does a pup 'plan ahead' when KKK alone is putting us over the cap. Then they add a gift and JA category that put us even farther over the cap.

I know not everyone has KKK, but still, your solution is to not use my mythic in times where I TP with max haste because I am hurting my DD?

[Darthmaull]

Just to give an example of poor itemization.

Pup with KKK + max magic haste, is over the cap of MA. For dual wield people, they say 'we want you to plan ahead when picking gear' as their reason for not wanting to fix dual wield so that over the cap DW wont lower tp gain. So how does a pup 'plan ahead' when KKK alone is putting us over the cap. Then they add a gift and JA category that put us even farther over the cap.

I know not everyone has KKK, but still, your solution is to not use my mythic in times where I TP with max haste because I am hurting my DD?

I see some of you complaining about pup getting max haste and with the new gifts and KKK we are over the cap but seriously no one is really using Pup in content with other players in high tier content. I use pup ALOT and when I am with with other players I rarely receive haste. My trusts haste me better. Pup is not a weak job. If you're meleeing with your auto and both of your Acc are appropriate for the content you are doing then pup with auto will be one of the top DD in that fight. I don't want the auto to be like BST. Acc cap and haste capped somehow without the gimping of the master will be great. And also maybe a new attachment that'll help the auto hold hate even better even when a BST pet goes nut on a mob. If we can get that then the master wouldn't even have to hold back and our DD would go up even more.

[Roja323]

"I rarely get haste" is hardly a good argument for poor itemization. I am always at capped magic haste, either solo with trusts or in a CP party...and on top of that i will never get the MA jps and for now wil avoid the gift, but when they raise the jp cap, it will eventually become unavoidable.

[Darthmaull]

"I rarely get haste" is hardly a good argument for poor itemization. I am always at capped magic haste, either solo with trusts or in a CP party...and on top of that i will never get the MA jps and for now wil avoid the gift, but when they raise the jp cap, it will eventually become unavoidable.

As I mentioned previously Cp parties and solo stuff is nothing. A lot of the Pups that post here don't seem to be doing anything with their pups except those two activities. This is why I don't post really because there is no real information with this job. Its just a lot of complaining. I'm lucky enough I guess to have friends that let me take pup to some events but I'm learning on the fly and one constant in every event I'm in is that I do not get haste on a consistent basis.

I'm also confused as to why are people complaining about a gift that puts you at the H2H cap without haste. If your ability is doing that then why get haste? Click it off? It's not something that you have to keep on. Its not needed. Also I'm sure no one really has the last JP gift anyways. What I would like to see is more beneficial strats and info on this job for high tier content with other players instead of spreadsheet data for stuff that no one has in game. Complaints about a spell that can be clicked off is so counterproductive.

[Stamos]

I don't think accuracy is much of an issue as it stands right now. With Shiromochi and Target Maker our ACC is generally capped. Issue really is our damage, even with tension spring III etc we don't have as much attack as a BST pet. And our weaponskills do about 1/3 of a BST or SMN pet at best, while they do it on a timer, and we have wait for TP.

As for the whole JP/Gifts haste thing. It is pretty silly, why would you want to gimp yourself and take off haste? At least with other jobs you can change the amount of dual wield you're wearing in gear depending on how much haste you have. Where as with KKK there really isn't anything you can do about it. Unless you want to take off KKK? lol

[Ulth]

Well with the new gifts dnc needs 1 dw, so really like no dw, and thf only needs 6 dw. Both of them tend to go over with gear they would have used anyway because it's best for store tp/triple attack. Ninja only ever needed 1 dw and their gear is overflowing with dw. Really the only dw job that can actually do that is blu, but they can't really swap what spells they have in the middle of a fight. Maybe they should just put the tp floor back in.

[Orcao]

Since the MA from JP was brought up...

Some interesting delay numbers (unless I done goofed)~ The bard category can kind of be ignored. I had it in my head that they didn't provide magic haste for some reason. Also it's just assumed that the bard is providing +2 Victory March (in a lot of cases +2 puts you over cap while +1 does not). The interesting part of the Bard category is it shows how easily you can be pushed above the delay cap w/ Haste II and any other amount of haste. Tinh and Oat have the same delay, so just use the oat row for tinhs.

H2H Delay w/ assumed double JP Cap, Perfect JSE Cape, and Empy Legs (http://puu.sh/imaD2/560a824f54.png)
H2H Delay w/ 25 JP MA, 31 Equip MA (http://puu.sh/imbv2/75722fcf52.png)
H2H Delay w/ 20 JP MA, 29 Equip MA (my PUPs bad gear) (http://puu.sh/imaHP/d56390c88d.png)
H2H Delay w/ 25 JP MA, 0 Equip MA (http://puu.sh/imbDL/a02f1614cb.png)
H2H Delay w/ 20 JP MA, 0 Equip MA (http://puu.sh/imaKl/604be4fae6.png)
H2H Delay w/ no MA (http://puu.sh/imaN0/ab87c968be.png)

Something to note is that even if you go crazy with the JP MA, and assume it caps at 20 (rumor is they're doubling JP categories), wear Empy Legs, a perfect JSE cape, and KKK, Haste II doesn't put you over cap. Almost any other source of haste (like a 5% Haste Samba from /DNC) on top of the Haste II will.

Also KKK goes over the cap w/ Equip Haste (as far as I'm concerned this is unavoidable), and Magic Cap OR Haste II and +2 March, and no JP or EQ MA.

Sorry about the formatting, it was meant as a personal reference. Hopefully I got the math right.

[Stamos]

Also, you wanted to hear my account of PUP in content it is pretty much

Vagary: Awful for the most part. Fomors is the only really melee friendly one, but your Automaton dies a lot due to a lot of aoe weaponskills. Slimes I pretty much just sat there and put my pet on the NMs. They do a lot of dots and aoe debuffs, so it is pretty bad. Eles, yeah no

Escha: This is where PUP would shine, if your Automaton did any dmg. Mostly all the NMs in this zone are nuking or pets. Your Automaton can tank the nms, and that is about it with a pet DT set and manuevers. If you want to bring your Automaton as a DD, you're pretty much a wasted spot

Delve 1/2: Too many Aoes once you get to the boss. Your automaton can live, but it will pretty much cost you DPS to keep it alive. Best pet is having it on whm or rdm out of range.

Skirmish: Does fine here. Only downside is in Yorcia Alluvion your Automaton will aggro the stronghold mobs if you run by with your automaton out

[Roja323]

Heres the thing. If your not getting haste in any kind of end game or group event, then I am sorry, but it just shouldnt be happening. I have run delve a million times and i have never been like 'lets just not haste the dd'.

The reason everyone mentions solo/cp is because thats really all there is to do, vagary is aweful and un fun, and escha is 99% solo at the moment, then joining up for a boss fight.

To put it in perspective:
KKK + Gear haste = 42% haste or 178 MA to cap
KKK+ gear + magic haste = 19 MA over the cap
KKK (50) + jp/gifts (25 currently) + 20 (cape) = 37% haste/133 MA needed to cap
KKK (50) + jp/gifts (25 currently) + 20 (cape) +cap magic= 64 MA over the cap

Base 58 tp a hit
Just by being hasted, i lose 1 tp/hit= 57 tp/hit
With gifts/jp/other ma gear i go down to = 53 tp/hit
If they up the cap on jp MA to -40, thats 51 tp/hit

This issue is a lot of jobs can avoid some DW, but with KKK alone we are already over the cap, and when you add in jp/gifts, we are even farther over.

My whole point was that H2h suffers from poor itemization, and the mythic weapon is the perfect example. Our 'best' weapon in the game is inferior to other weapons because of sub par dmg, and actually putting us over the cap for MA with no other gear.

The idea of gearing for assuming you are buffless, in a day and age where you can always have haste 2 and bard haste is just silly.


I am not arguing other peoples comments about our pets dieing to easy/melee being useless in a lot of events. All those are true.

[Darthmaull]

Also, you wanted to hear my account of PUP in content it is pretty much

Vagary: Awful for the most part. Fomors is the only really melee friendly one, but your Automaton dies a lot due to a lot of aoe weaponskills. Slimes I pretty much just sat there and put my pet on the NMs. They do a lot of dots and aoe debuffs, so it is pretty bad. Eles, yeah no

Escha: This is where PUP would shine, if your Automaton did any dmg. Mostly all the NMs in this zone are nuking or pets. Your Automaton can tank the nms, and that is about it with a pet DT set and manuevers. If you want to bring your Automaton as a DD, you're pretty much a wasted spot

Delve 1/2: Too many Aoes once you get to the boss. Your automaton can live, but it will pretty much cost you DPS to keep it alive. Best pet is having it on whm or rdm out of range.

Skirmish: Does fine here. Only downside is in Yorcia Alluvion your Automaton will aggro the stronghold mobs if you run by with your automaton out

Vagary: I've never been able to take my pup there. I have done them all on another job but I can see the auto tanking and holding some of the mobs off of the group. I have been there and have seen some events go south once the tank goes down and no one else could keep the hate of some of the mobs off the mages.

Escha: I've done this with pup a lot. Some NM's you can use DD and some you can use your tank. My gear is pretty good and my auto doesn't have Acc issues. So if a player can melee dd then so can I and my auto so saying its a wasted spot is completely untrue.

Delve: I have also done with pup multiple times. The tank auto does best here. Many Aoe and silly status ailments make meleeing a pain but the auto can stay there and dd and tank the bosses. I personally do not have KKK but from doing Delve and Escha the way I do, I've started working on it. I need a way to not overload for a long period of time because I use light maneuvers a lot.

[Grekumah]

Previously (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45342-Serious-Puppetmaster-Suggestion-Thread?p=534608&viewfull=1#post534608), I mentioned that the development team was looking into a way to lock a weapon skill that an automaton would use; however, our plans to implement this have changed.

One portion of the concept for automatons is how they act independently, and as such we have no plans to make adjustments in a way which would allow you to control when and which weapon skills they execute.

Rest assured that we'll be making further adjustments as we move forward by both tuning automatons and adding new attachments.

[Darthmaull]

I know this is off the thread topic but an attachment that would help the auto hold hate like gesso trust or that RUN trust (can't remember his name at the moment). Presently even with both strobe attachments equipped I can still rip hate away after a short time. Better hate holding would lead to me not holding back. That would also help in group play if there is no tank or if the tank dies. We could fill that role.

[Roja323]

As long as future adjustments arent as bad as that awful amplifier.... Thing doesnt even work. In fact most of the last round of attachments were pretty worthless.

[Psion]

Seriously, I got more out of the ranged penalty removal from drum magazine. repeater seemed like the only real good attachment we got.

How about some serious magic damage + attachments, and one that makes auto spam nukes, but lower tier? (but will use higher tier nukes for magic bursts if it's possible for it to predict it.)

And please, let us have equipment that gives massive gains to the automaton, at a cost to master output, similar to how bst plays now. our flexibility is our strongest point, yet all our best gear is for the master, making us just a monk with a weak pet. while there's nothing wrong with that, it would be nice to switch things up as the situation calls for by letting us seriously pimp out our nuke bot, our healing bot, and our melee/ranged bots.

[Roja323]

Even then, repeater isn't worth using over drum magazine + tubo charger 1 + turbo charger 2.

Repeater would have to have double its current 'chance to double shot' for it to just break even with drum magazine.

[dasva]

Previously (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45342-Serious-Puppetmaster-Suggestion-Thread?p=534608&viewfull=1#post534608), I mentioned that the development team was looking into a way to lock a weapon skill that an automaton would use; however, our plans to implement this have changed.

One portion of the concept for automatons is how they act independently, and as such we have no plans to make adjustments in a way which would allow you to control when and which weapon skills they execute.

Rest assured that we'll be making further adjustments as we move forward by both tuning automatons and adding new attachments.

What a shame because the ws idea was pretty good. Also pups already can control which ws is used... the problem is it requires using maneuvers possibly ones that you wouldn't want to use otherwise in that situation. As such whatever adjustments you make with attachments will always be hampered by the possibility of players not really being able to take full advantage of those attachments

[Darthmaull]

I never really wanted the weapon skill changed. I use inhibitors a lot so my auto is always using his Ws and because he uses it to create skillchains with either me or trusts or another player I never had a problem with it. I love love love what they are doing to the automaton in the June update. This will actually free up me using so many light maneuvers and will allow me to use Cannibal Blade to help my tank tank even more effectively. SS will be able to withstand even more damage now as well. Good adjustment.

[Stamos]

Like the fact they're giving the Automatons more hp. But still, the WS dmg from them is awful compared to other pet jobs. /repeat

[dasva]

I never really wanted the weapon skill changed. I use inhibitors a lot so my auto is always using his Ws and because he uses it to create skillchains with either me or trusts or another player I never had a problem with it. I love love love what they are doing to the automaton in the June update. This will actually free up me using so many light maneuvers and will allow me to use Cannibal Blade to help my tank tank even more effectively. SS will be able to withstand even more damage now as well. Good adjustment.

Yeah it just kind of sucked in certain circumstances like wanting to make a tank build that would use Cannibal blade without having to use dark maneuvers which don't really help in tanking

[Selindrile]

I have no dog in the fight honestly because Pup is one of the few jobs I'm not really interested in playing but, I hate this justification, they use it all the time and it is completely nonsensical,

"The concept of the _____ is that they _____ so we will not be adjusting _____ to make them _____."

The devs (and/or translation team) really need to get it through their heads that just because something was intended a certain way, doesn't have to overshadow any changes that would make the end design more successful or enjoyable to the playerbase. Ninja wasn't designed as a tank (as I'm sure has been mentioned) but embracing that made them usable and enjoyable for the population, and there are a ton of examples of such. Rdm was designed with meleeing in mind, but that's been the exception not the rule, for many many years.

A potential change "not matching the designers' original intent" is not a reason to deny something, please, give us real reasoning (if there is any), so we can have an actual debate on such topics, for example:

"We believe this change would be too powerful because of _____."
"The technical aspects of this change would be too difficult."
"With the amount of work that would be put into _____, we believe we could improve other areas more."
"We are afraid this might negatively impact another job or situation because of _____."

Jobs change over time, their identities even change, Ninja was not designed as a Tank, Beastmaster was designed as a soloist, Redmage was designed to melee, heck the entire game was designed around the concept of the "exp party", which isn't the core of XI anymore, it's now the endgame, and it has been for quite some time, saying you're not going to make a change because that wasn't the original intent seems silly, considering how many changes that have been made in the past that completely changed how things worked.

[Roja323]

"The concept of the _____ is that they _____ so we will not be adjusting _____ to make them _____."


Agree 100%, was beast originally intended to be the most sought after group class with pet moves that deal 30k every 10 seconds? Didn't think so. But it is now, and people love having options besides SAM. Don't see why its so game breaking to even just add more control/better weapon skills for pets, when bests get new pets every patch with 4x the hp, and 10x the damage.

Master to Master, pup compares very evenly to beast, so why cant our pets damage/survivability compare evenly?

[dasva]

Hey it's more like 2-3x the hp! Well auto survivability is actually a bit higher... but as you said the dmg is way different. heck that 10X actually might be an underestimate. And if you gear/attach/maneuver for survivability you have the dps of a carbuncle that only auto attacks

[Roja323]

Hey it's more like 2-3x the hp! Well auto survivability is actually a bit higher... but as you said the dmg is way different. heck that 10X actually might be an underestimate. And if you gear/attach/maneuver for survivability you have the dps of a carbuncle that only auto attacks

True, the only advantage to pup at the moment is we can cap spell haste AND gear haste on our pet.

[Glamdring]

Agree 100%, was beast originally intended to be the most sought after group class with pet moves that deal 30k every 10 seconds? Didn't think so. But it is now, and people love having options besides SAM. Don't see why its so game breaking to even just add more control/better weapon skills for pets, when bests get new pets every patch with 4x the hp, and 10x the damage.

Master to Master, pup compares very evenly to beast, so why cant our pets damage/survivability compare evenly?

while I understand your point I already know the answer is pup's greater versatility. unless a beast is using a charmed pet we basically have a choice of melee damage or melee damage from our pet. a pup has ACCESS to (not that many use it) melee, ranged, nuking, (de)buffing or dedicated healer, so like rdm, the trade-off is we do less than a job dedicated to 1 thing. of course, as has been pointed out, if you go "balls-to-the-wall" on the ultimate gear sets you can improve those numbers quite a bit-funny, you can say the same thing about EVERY job, hell you could make a summoner that was a respectable melee if you tried hard enough, but the 7 second life expectancy might be a bit underwhelming...

now, I LOVE playing my pup, almost as much as my beast but the lackluster numbers do give me pause. mostly these days I use it in parties as Soulsoother to take some of the healing (and thus MP) load off the main healer, or Stormwalker so the healer can ignore me and we have another dispeller in the party neither of which can ever run out of MP-thank you mana converter (all assuming they don't force me to come brd). not the chosen way for most pups to play but it does have utility, biggest problem is with auto MACC you get that issue where it won't even try to cast endgame, which is why Soulsoother gets the nod. but with DPS being the primary determinant on what gets a party slot I pretty much am restricted to running with LS mates only playing that way.

[Stamos]

Even with the new attachments our weaponskill damage is significantly lower than BST and SMN. Considering PUP has to get TP before it can weaponskill is there any plans to change this? Also, with Divinator II would it be possible to increase ranged attack speed on the ranger Automaton frame since it will stay out of range

[Elvyn]

Its been a very long time since i have played on my BST or watched other people, what sort of Sic/Rdy DMG are we looking at now? and are they able to skill chain with pets and vice-versa now?

[Ezrah]

pet moves that deal 30k every 10 seconds

This is such a gross inflation of the truth. NO ONE is doing 30k moves every 10s....not in any ilvl content.

[Draylo-]

With max buffs they can, it depends on the NM. PUP is miles behind BST in dmg and SMN as well.

[Ezrah]

With max buffs they can

Not just with buffs, but with MAX buffs(whatever that means). Thats not just a bst by itself. That is a bst+geo or cor or rdm or w/e 'debuffing' as well as buffs. Also I'm pretty sure only cor can really provide any pet buffs and that isn't a lot. So i doubt that with just buffs 30k/10s is happening. I'd like to see a screenshot w/ a timestamp of 30k every 10s.

That is a lot of factors going into such a statement. Then to use such an inflated truth to get pup adjusted is wrong.

Please when debating a topic don't bring in unspoken or implied factors. Thats like a kid on the playground being like "No you didn't get me cause I have shields"

I wish people wouldn't hate on other pet jobs because one isn't the other. A SMN can also do a lot of defensive/buff stuff that a BST or PUP or DRG can't (BP Wards, Favor) You are comparing three jobs that very different and trying to fit them all in the same hole just because they use pets. Then trying to say they should be the same or on par. Well where are all the BST defensive/pt buff rdy moves? Make jugs use mp and give bst an mp pool.

I play both all these jobs w/ the exception of DRG and I love them all and I would never put one down to try and further the other.

[Roja323]

This is such a gross inflation of the truth. NO ONE is doing 30k moves every 10s....not in any ilvl content.

Besides the fact you quoted a 2 month old statement....

Heres the thing, you have forums where people claim thats what they can do (epeen) and then actual game play where they show what they can actually do. I dont play bst, so best i can do is from reddit/bg/ffxiah forums of what people claim is possible with bst.

[dasva]

Falkirk has huge parses on ffxiah you can check outof various moves against lvl 0 targets where you are definitely capping pdif and fstr etc. And the highest dmgs even at 3k tp for single charge moves was 19k for single hit or 21k for some of the multi hit if all the hits land well.

So those 30k dmgs are clearly coming from multiple charge moves (so not every 10 seconds) or mobs with dmg weaknesses in which case anyone can do a bunch.

And even then the couple of 2-3 charge moves that go up to 30k still require massive +att buff/-def debuffing to happen. For example on just normal cp mobs in sky which are like ep/dc using tiger for it's massive innate attack boost and /cor beast roll and full jps at effective 2100 tp my Razor Fangs do around 6-9k when capped pdif Razor Fangs at that tp should average ~17k. So you can imagine how much harder it is to cap pdif against actually hard targets

Speaking of pup dmg though there was a jp dev statement that explains the stats of the ws and how flameholder works which looks somewhat promising

[Camate]

Greetings,

On the topic of automaton damage, I think you will be interested to hear about how the Flame Holder attachment works and see some data on the stats for various automaton weapon skills.


Flame Holder
This attachment currently gives a similar effect to “Damage varies with TP” and the effect value varies depending on the amount of fire maneuvers you have, which is shown below.


No fire maneuvers: damage +25%
*Currently there is a bug and no damage bonus is given when you do not have any fire maneuvers. This will be fixed in the September version update. Also with this change, the effect of the Flame Holder attachment will stack additional damage onto the damage from Magic Mortar that is calculated from the automaton’s missing HP.

1 fire maneuver: damage +100%
2 fire maneuvers: damage +175%
3 fire maneuvers: damage +250%




Now then, onto the weapon skill data…


Chimera Ripper
Base stat: Damage +500%, Accuracy +100
Modifier stat: STR50%
TP1000: Damage±0%
TP2000: Damage＋250%
TP3000: Damage＋500%



String Clipper
Base stat: Twofold attack, Damage＋250%, Attack +25%
Modifier stat: STR30%, DEX30%
TP1000: Accuracy±0
TP2000: Accuracy +50
TP3000: Accuracy +100



Arcuballista
Base stat: Damage＋600%, Accuracy＋100
Modifier stat: DEX60%
TP1000: Damage±0%
TP2000: Damage＋300%
TP3000: Damage＋600%



Slapstick
Base stat: Threefold attack, Damage +166%
Modifier stat: STR30%, DEX30%
TP1000: Accuracy ±0
TP2000: Accuracy +40
TP3000: Accuracy +80



Bone Crusher
Base stat: Threefold attack, Damage +166%, Additional effect: Stun, Against undead: Damage +100%
Modifier stat: VIT60%
TP1000: no effect
TP2000: no effect
TP3000: no effect



Armor Piercer
Base stat: Damage +300%, Accuracy＋100, Defense ignored -50%
Modifier stat: DEX60%
TP1000: Damage±0%
TP2000: Damage＋150%
TP3000: Damage＋300%



Magic Mortar
Base stat: Damage varies depending on automaton’s remaining HP
Modifier stat: none
TP1000: Damage＋50%
TP2000: Damage＋75%
TP3000: Damage＋150%



String Shredder
Base stat: Threefold attack, Damage +50%, Accuracy +10, Attack +36%
Modifier stat: VIT50%
TP1000: Critical +20%
TP2000: Critical +40%
TP3000: Critical +70%



Armor Shatterer
Base stat: Damage +500%, Accuracy +50, Additional effect: reduced defense -15% (90 seconds), Attack +125%
Modifier stat: DEX50%
TP1000: Extended effect duration for additional effect±0%
TP2000: Extended effect duration for additional effect＋33%
TP3000: Extended effect duration for additional effect＋66%



Cannibal Blade
Base stat: Damage +1500% (*)
Modifier stat: MND100%
TP1000: Damage±0%
TP2000: Damage＋750%
TP3000: Damage＋1500%
*Base damage varies depending on melee skill.



Daze
Base stat: Damage＋500%, Accuracy＋150, Additional effect: Stun
Modifier stat: DEX100%
TP1000: Damage±0%
TP2000: Damage＋250%
TP3000: Damage＋500%



Knockout
Base stat: Damage +500%, Accuracy +50, Additional effect: reduced evasion -10% (30 seconds)
Modifier stat: AGI100%
TP1000: Damage±0%
TP2000: Damage＋250%
TP3000: Damage＋500%

[larrymc]

Base stat: Damage +500%, Accuracy +50, Additional effect: reduced evasion -10% (30 seconds)


I'm jealous - bst got our % based evasion reduction nerfed away :(

[Zeargi]

I'm jealous - bst got our % based evasion reduction nerfed away :(

How many PUPs do you see vs. BST? Not to mention BST has 100% control over Ready which doesn't require TP to use.

[Zhronne]

Knockout's evasion reduction is not as strong though, and it's way less convenient to use compared to a BST Pet's ~126 cooldown. On PUP you need:
1) to use a specific automaton (which tipically doesn't provide good damage, so you're taking a big drop in damage just to be able to use Knockout)
2) to use a specific set of maneuvers and to keep them up to force the automaton to use Knockout instead of other WSs
3) to make so your pet can hit the target, and then reach enough TP for it to use the WSs
4) Knockout's eva reduction lasts less than the BST one used to be (unless I'm mistaken? Not 100% sure on this)

All in all I don't think you can really compare 1:1 the PUP situation and the BST situation when it comes to evasion reduction debuffs.

[dasva]

I'm jealous - bst got our % based evasion reduction nerfed away :(

It's incorrect though I tested it like a month ago and it definitely wasn't percentage based. It was only -50 for 30 seconds. So similar strength then infrasonics is now but with much shorter duration. The upside is it's an additional effect on dmg you are already doing instead of having to waste a move putting a debuff on a mob that you can't tell when it wears off because it's too hard to put that in chat log so if you are using that frame you can actually spam it to keep it on without hindering your dmg much more than you were by just using that frame (and mage frames I've noticed are sometimes being used for their tanking anyways)

Either way though you are better off just getting a rdm to debuff it or even /rdm half the time

Anyways as far as the dmg posts goes it's put in a way that's a bit different then how we generally have formulas.

Any theories on what it means? My thought is those +% dmg are basically just compared to a normal melee hit.. basically kind of what we would think of ftp. So a ws with say base +500% dmg and another +500% at 3k tp would be one with base 6.0 ftp and 11.0 at 3k. I started to do some really rough dmg comparisons between regular hits and ws and it seems to somewhat line up though stat mods add in too. And for the multi hit ones will they transfer like most ws do these days or just 1.0 for the additional? If transfer bonecrusher could be pretty amazing with flameholder

Another thing I've noted though was while a lot of those melee ws look good... and really their stats are pretty good to the point of being about as good as the ranged ones. The problem is the melee hits of all frames are only dealing like 250-300 dmg on lvl 0 mobs so no matter how great the ws stats are your dmg is going to be weak. It's like a melee DD using a weapon with the base dmg of something from lvl 75 (this is of course a bit of an exaggeration but not as big as you might think given the base delay). Oh the other end the rng frames shots do like 1-1.2k which is not bad so it's ws do ok despite similar ws stats.

tl;dr raise auto melee base dmg because it seems like they haven't really raised it with ilvl at all

[AtrixWolfe]

It's incorrect though I tested it like a month ago and it definitely wasn't percentage based. It was only -50 for 30 seconds. So similar strength then infrasonics is now but with much shorter duration.


Someone recently tested feint as well, and the information it was % based was also wrong. It is enough to make me wonder if any % based info is right at all.

[dasva]

Someone recently tested feint as well, and the information it was % based was also wrong. It is enough to make me wonder if any % based info is right at all.

Well feint decayed so it was really easy to mess up with parses and/or checking mobs. The jug -evasion moves definitely were right though.

[Stamos]

Curious if there is any chance Automaton WS damage will be boosted? Still stands that Automaton WS damage is the weakest of the pet jobs(BST,SMN, and PUP) and Automatons have to accumulate TP. I know there is no plans to add a way to set which weaponskill the Automaton does. But, since that is the case you either have to hurt your damage to make sure the Automaton does the proper weaponskill or hurt the Automaton's damage.

[xiozen]

Curious if there is any chance Automaton WS damage will be boosted?

What kind of numbers in damage do you believe the automaton should be performing at? And are those numbers with or without all, some or a few, 3 star "gifts"? I'm a full time PUP as well and I don't have any issue with my automaton's damage output...


Still stands that Automaton WS damage is the weakest of the pet jobs(BST,SMN, and PUP) and Automatons have to accumulate TP. Well I think all the pet jobs accumulation of TP, has some form of an impact on the overall damage the pet does; BST I believe has charges tied to TP and SMN's avatar's TP is tied to overall damage of the bloodpact rage performed...


I know there is no plans to add a way to set which weaponskill the Automaton does. But, since that is the case you either have to hurt your damage to make sure the Automaton does the proper weaponskill or hurt the Automaton's damage. Not quite sure what is meant here, since you acknowledged that the master can "make sure the Automaton does the proper weaponskill"... which means there is a way for the master to "force" the weaponskill of choice... how does this translate into hurting dmg? I think it helps. Example, when I farmed in Reisenjima against a highly evasive NM; I "forced" my harlequin to use "Knockout", which helped my party gather TP for continous weaponskills and bursts. There are significant benefits to being able to "force" the weaponskill... so perhaps you can explain what you are seeking.

[Stamos]

My PUP has been Master for quite a while. So, was talking from that standpoint. Without Overdrive, Automaton WSD is extremely lacking. Think last thing I did was VD Antlion Ambuscade, my Automaton WS dmg ranged from 1.5 to 5k. And that was with GEO giving frailty and torpor.

Charges are on a timer, which are reduced with gifts and gear. You are able to gain one charge per ten seconds with appropriate gear. You start with three. Alongside the fact you get Pet TP Bonus gear, even having no TP on bst you are actually using ready with over 1000 at minimum. So, you are doing 10-20k every 10 seconds on BST, if the ready move is one charge. While, summoner can do 10-99k every twenty seconds. Automaton output is not anywhere close to either of these.

And, to the last point. PUP's highest damage weaponskill is either Smite or Raging Fists. Using the Valoredge frame, smite will cause it to use Stringing Shredder which is mostly awful. Requiring you to use Spiral first to force Bonecrusher for light, then Smite for double light/radiance.

[Urmom]

What kind of numbers in damage do you believe the automaton should be performing at? And are those numbers with or without all, some or a few, 3 star "gifts"? I'm a full time PUP as well and I don't have any issue with my automaton's damage output...


Well I think all the pet jobs accumulation of TP, has some form of an impact on the overall damage the pet does; BST I believe has charges tied to TP and SMN's avatar's TP is tied to overall damage of the bloodpact rage performed...

Not quite sure what is meant here, since you acknowledged that the master can "make sure the Automaton does the proper weaponskill"... which means there is a way for the master to "force" the weaponskill of choice... how does this translate into hurting dmg? I think it helps. Example, when I farmed in Reisenjima against a highly evasive NM; I "forced" my harlequin to use "Knockout", which helped my party gather TP for continous weaponskills and bursts. There are significant benefits to being able to "force" the weaponskill... so perhaps you can explain what you are seeking.

For dmg my master autos get up to 13-14k bone crushers with capped pdif during overdrive against dmg neutral targets. Which is great compared to what we were at before. But then you consider the strongest bst moves cap out at around 30k, bps can go to the dmg cap, and that like blus can fairly consistently do 30ks with capped att and people with strong magical ws can go much higher it's not as hot in comparison and those are without having to use SPs


It's more of a can. Like some jug moves tp has no effect on dmg and even the ones it does it does very little after all the tp bonus gear and smn again not all bps use tp. iirc it's only the merit ones

As far as the forcing thing he is most likely referring to how you have to do things that hurt your dmg in order to force those ws. Like using sub optimal maneuvers or using sub optimum starter ws to get it to skillchain with what you want. For example let's say you wanted bone crusher because it for the most part does more damage than string shredder... to force it with maneuvers you can either not use any thunder and lose out on a bunch of acc, da and such or if you do use thunder you have to use double light and lose out on a bunch of att and attuners ignore def massively lowering your dmg

[nyheen]

ご意見ありがとうございます。



先日公開した7月バージョンアップのお知らせ (forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/50913)ですが、
記事制作時点の予定をまとめてお伝えしています。
そのため、大枠の情報のみでまとめていることが多く、
記事制作後に追加となった案件などが含まれないことがあります。

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7月のバージョンアップにて実装いたします。
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in eng (google tran)
Thank you for your opinion.

rinoshiri's Avatar
QuotePosted By Originally Rinoshiri View Post
Only pet command to the announcement of July in the
riding adjustment of shooting mutton Neeeeeeeeeeeee
Was published the other day announcement of the July version up you, but,
I have to tell together the plans of the article production time.
Therefore, often are summarized only in the information of the outline,
it may not include such projects became added after article production. Shooting power adjustment of the shooting game frame "Hazel Sagittarius" is, it will be implemented in the July version up. For more information, please wait for the version up the day of announcement.

what does they mean by this? does this mean our rng pet getting a boost this update?

[Stamos]

Any news on this? Our pet damage is extremely low compared to the other two pet jobs. I can live with very low white damage, but our weaponskills need a huge boost. The only time Automatons put out respectable damage is while using Overdrive. The Valoredge frame especially needs a considerable boost in damage. Our Automatons are doing 2-5k max, while Summoners are doing 15-99k damage, and BSTs can spam tp moves at a higher frequency and they do more damage.

[xiozen]

Any news on this? Our pet damage is extremely low compared to the other two pet jobs. I can live with very low white damage, but our weaponskills need a huge boost. The only time Automatons put out respectable damage is while using Overdrive. The Valoredge frame especially needs a considerable boost in damage. Our Automatons are doing 2-5k max, while Summoners are doing 15-99k damage, and BSTs can spam tp moves at a higher frequency and they do more damage.

While I most certainly wouldn't shake a stick at more damage; I cannot help but disagree with the comparisons being made... "Automatons are doing 2-5k max"... "Summoners are doing 15-99k damage"... "BSTs can spam tp moves at a higher purpose frequency and they do more damage"...

I think it behooves us to analyze this request a bit more thoroughly... Puppetmasters (PUP) use an Automaton which is customizable... bst and smns pets are not. PUPs Automatons can reliably tank Notorious Monsters (NMs) (when proper attachments are in place)...NMs which bst and smns cannot reliably tank... PUPs can heal literally an entire party of PCs/Trust party members, where as a bst and smn pet cannot (at least to the same degree)... PUPs can rapidly and reliably skill chain not only with the Master but with any other party member performing a corresponding weaponskill to which their attachments allow for a skill chain reaction to be performed... smn and bst (although can do this to a certain extent, it is mostly the realm of the PUP)... PUPs can use regeneration of the automaton's hitpoints to reliably keep the automaton alive without the need to spam "oils".... bst and smns healing potential of their pet is extremely limited....

The damage output associated with PUP is directly tied to that of the Master; as such, and in my opinion, I do not believe we are doing the job itself a service by comparing the damage output of BST and SMN to PUP in relation to the "amount of burst damage" both BSTs and SMNs generate with their pets at end game... compared to that of the PUP.

I also believe that making such adjustments wouldn't benefit the job, as it would turn into the same type of "send in pet without master to perform burst weapon skill on enemy"...but considering the degree in which we would be able increase defense as well as hitpoint regeneration of our automatons, such scenarios would tend to be broken... Possible reason why BST was adjusted to have them be so "close to their pet" to heal them with a biscuit.

Saying all of that... I do not believe the request as stated, is justified.

[Stamos]

Think you are under estimating BST in terms of being able to tank. Just the situation has to be setup for them. They can easily tank in pet only situations. Not to mention, if we just went master to master in terms of raw DPS it isn't even close. BST destroys PUP.

I do agree that PUP can be customized through attachments. However, it is mostly designed for the 75 era. There is no way a PUP can main heal on anything end game without a lot of support or there being basically only one person taking damage. The cool down on spells, plus the lack of curaga destroys that idea. With everything from SoA on being littered with multiple status effect TP moves.

SMN's support ability is far greater through avatar favor, and aoe buffs. We're talking aoe haste IIs, 25% double attack for the party, and over 20% critical hit rate. PUP does none of this, pup generally just services the master due to the cool down in abilities and spells.


As someone that has done pretty much every end game thing available, when you look at the difference in the damage between our job and the other pet jobs it isn't even close. Summoners out damage extremely well geared melee, and BSTs can keep up or at least hold their own. Bringing my PUP to said situations as a DD Automaton with the best pet gear. My damage is between .5 and 2% of the damage.

As it stands right now, PUP's niche is really only as a tank. That's all.

[Domille]

Think you are under estimating BST in terms of being able to tank. Just the situation has to be setup for them. They can easily tank in pet only situations. Not to mention, if we just went master to master in terms of raw DPS it isn't even close. BST destroys PUP.

BST is a DD PUP is a tank, this isn't uncommon. A WAR beats a PLD, so yeah. That's it's role.



I do agree that PUP can be customized through attachments. However, it is mostly designed for the 75 era. There is no way a PUP can main heal on anything end game without a lot of support or there being basically only one person taking damage. The cool down on spells, plus the lack of curaga destroys that idea. With everything from SoA on being littered with multiple status effect TP moves.


This is true, the magic automation is (mostly) complete crap, a trust is better than the automaton. WHM RDM and BLM, it's just poorly designed. The mage AI needs a ton of reworking. But I think it might become highly overpowered if it were actually good so I don't know how they would do it.



As someone that has done pretty much every end game thing available, when you look at the difference in the damage between our job and the other pet jobs it isn't even close. Summoners out damage extremely well geared melee, and BSTs can keep up or at least hold their own. Bringing my PUP to said situations as a DD Automaton with the best pet gear. My damage is between .5 and 2% of the damage.

As it stands right now, PUP's niche is really only as a tank. That's all.

You say it like it's a bad thing. You forgot one word, BEST. A PUPs automaton is technically the absolute best tank. Situationally. Better than a RUN better than a PLD.

SMN is extremely broken now, can't debate that, it's super broken. BST is in a "decent" position, but it's not something you're using unless it's a dedicated bstzerg. As just a dps bst is meh at best until you unleash.

A job can't be good at everything, it totally ruins the balance. *cough BLU cough cough*

All that being said, could damage use a boost? Yes! Even doubling it's str/att/mods it would still be weak, comparatively. Even if a new update gave +100 all stat like overdrive PUP wouldn't be "amazing".

[Stamos]

You're looking at a very specific situation where PUP is the best tank. Where is something that doesn't doom your automaton, and does physical damage only. Plus, it has to be a singular mob. If there is adds it negates PUP tank benefit. Would take a well-geared RUN over a PUP 99% of the time. When all the frames are useless except the tank, it needs an overhaul.

Automatons need a damage boost. Not like I am asking to do 99k dmg, but being able to do 8-20k would be nice. Instead of doing like 1-6k.

[Songen]

automaton can deal a fair bit of damage, there are attachments that affect "attack" and "ftp" directly, a WS that lowers enemy defence and can block certain defence up abilitys like cocoon if it lands. couple with auto's SC inundation attachment and you'll deal some massive damage if you play the job right. as a 1200jp pup myself, i have delt some decent damage in my time, i'v partyed with some pups that deal double/triple my damage. its all about how you gear it ,attach it,gift it( auto's gives are massive in terms of attack)and stratergise it.
And thats without taking into account the master attacking as well, however thats a whole other story

[Stamos]

I've been master PUP for a long while now, and not trying to be rude. What are you talking about? Even with capped pdif, geo fraility, attuner, tension spring IV the automaton does very awful damage on high level targets.

The damage comparison when I did like 1% of the damage was with DDs and Summoners was just on Escha Zitah trash mobs for a round of Aeonics. It is even worse when it scales up in Reisen. Really just hoping for the damage to become respectable.

[Traxus]

Automaton damage is garbage outside of overdrive.

[Ilian]

For everyone:
The automaton's niche in dps comes from skillchaining. Certainly with VE with Attuner/Flame Holder/Speedloader/Tension Spring.
Adjust by removing Speedloader(s) or Inhibitor(s) when in groups spamming ws.

Of course, everyone should know to get a gear set to boost VIT/att or STR/att (for Chimera Ripper).

Wouldn't say it's lacking, but requires more adjusting than other jobs for competitive dps. Puppets would certainly be OP if we could pump out Avatar numbers and never have an ounce of concern because your puppet's -dt and regen trump dps from nearly every mob in the game.

Has to be some sort of balance with that, yes?

[Jblauh]

I think giving the pet more dmg is silly. My friend plays Pup and he is doing incredible things with the job. We have him tank lots of high tier NMs effortlessly. Even seems to be resisting spells like Death for this Ambuscade and the damn this has like 4K hp and hardly loses hate. Even when I'm on Blu which is geared pretty well. When he uses his Ranger build he is doing massive SC dmg. He solos Apex mobs like nothing finishing them off super quickly with just a few SC's. The job as is right now seems incredible... So it's not doing dmg like Bst. Well big deal it plays differently. I'm a SMN and my pet dies when you fart by the damn thing. Our pets are ridiculously squishy. Now that's something that needs some looking into, but as for Pups atm, I think they're just fine. It tanks like a monster, and dps builds are pretty damn impressive. When my SMN MBs off his Pups SCs we rip through Apex mobs or a lot of NMs like nothing. Only thing I feel needs done to it is just some more control over its SC timing cause once in a while it will ruins our SCs when it tanks.

[Stamos]

Any news on this? PUPs have the biggest disadvantage between pet jobs. PUP has one niche use, which is tanking a singular mob. We have the least control over our pets, cannot macro in pet ws damage gear or enmity gear without sitting in that gear and waiting for the automaton to maybe do the action/ws. Even in fully amazing pet designed gear, Automaton's weaponskill damage is very weak.

Black mage automaton is terrible. Can do okay damage if you put it in a burst only situation. Cannot freely nuke. Designed based in the 75 era prior to magic damage changes.
White Mage automaton lacks curaga, worse than trust healers by a lot.
Red Mage is decent if you in a party situation where people forget to haste you. That's it. Worse than trusts by a lot as well.

[Laruni]

Maybe add job abilities to PUP like Ninja's Innin and Yonin? One JA can stop weaponskill use and give significant boost to enmity to puppet, so that when used with strobe and flashbulb the automaton can hold hate against players doing high damage and the puppet will not interrupt skillchains. The other ability could significantly increases attack and magic attack, since the puppet has access to a lot of accuracy already in gear.

While other jobs can go into content and kill it quickly, the automaton still takes a lot of time to kill things in comparison. :(

Other general adjustments would be appreciated too, since trusts are better than other frames that are not tank or damage dealer.

[waithuhwhat]

Greetings,

On the topic of automaton damage, I think you will be interested to hear about how the Flame Holder attachment works and see some data on the stats for various automaton weapon skills.


Flame Holder
This attachment currently gives a similar effect to “Damage varies with TP” and the effect value varies depending on the amount of fire maneuvers you have, which is shown below.


No fire maneuvers: damage +25%
*Currently there is a bug and no damage bonus is given when you do not have any fire maneuvers. This will be fixed in the September version update. Also with this change, the effect of the Flame Holder attachment will stack additional damage onto the damage from Magic Mortar that is calculated from the automaton’s missing HP.

1 fire maneuver: damage +100%
2 fire maneuvers: damage +175%
3 fire maneuvers: damage +250%




Now then, onto the weapon skill data…



String Clipper
Base stat: Twofold attack, Damage＋250%, Attack +25%
Modifier stat: STR30%, DEX30%
TP1000: Accuracy±0
TP2000: Accuracy +50
TP3000: Accuracy +100




Bone Crusher
Base stat: Threefold attack, Damage +166%, Additional effect: Stun, Against undead: Damage +100%
Modifier stat: VIT60%
TP1000: no effect
TP2000: no effect
TP3000: no effect



String Shredder
Base stat: Threefold attack, Damage +50%, Accuracy +10, Attack +36%
Modifier stat: VIT50%
TP1000: Critical +20%
TP2000: Critical +40%
TP3000: Critical +70%


I know this is an older post but, is there a reason why String Shredder is weaker than these two? It turns out that pet critical hits don't seem to work the same way as players and it just seems so odd that Shredder is weaker that Clipper.:confused:

[Ilian]

I don't know about it being weaker. Maybe based on the 'damage+' stat that it looks stronger on paper. Apart from that, we never see String Clipper on anything you'd fight at 99 to know for sure if it hits harder. Overall, String Shredder hits not nearly as hard as we'd all like. It's pleasant when it does hit high though.

[waithuhwhat]

I don't know about it being weaker. Maybe based on the 'damage+' stat that it looks stronger on paper. Apart from that, we never see String Clipper on anything you'd fight at 99 to know for sure if it hits harder. Overall, String Shredder hits not nearly as hard as we'd all like. It's pleasant when it does hit high though.

That's true about String Clipper the only Clipper vs Shredder post I found is from 2014 saying that that update made them about the same. I just find it weird that this ws has had three updates deticated to increasing its damage, but its still so much behind Bone Crusher (vs non-blunt weakness mobs and non-undead mobs ofcourse).

[Ilian]

I'm unsure if this is part of these odd automaton weapon skill mechanics, but I'll use Sang Buaya as an example. If you have a WS set specifically for Shredder, this WS will outperform BC on this particular NM. Not always the skill itself necessarily, but the SC damage drops Sang quick. It may just be the darkness aspect of it honestly.