Classic server, what's the argument against it now?

[nekroturkey]

Typically, whenever the subject of a classic server is brought up, there are two main points against it:

1. It takes away development time from the main servers.

2. Who would want to play on a server that would never get updated?

Once November hits, neither of these points will be valid anymore. So with that in mind, what would be the harm in releasing a single classic server for those that want one? After doing some research, there appears to be plenty of interest in the idea of classic servers for older MMOs:

1. Everquest


Currently in the process of releasing a progression server in 2015.
http://massivelyop.com/2015/02/23/everquest-is-getting-a-new-progression-server

Edit: Trailer for the progression server:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YOL9OjV-A4&feature=youtu.be


Daybreak have entered into an official agreement with Project 1999.
https://www.everquest.com/news/project-1999-daybreak

2. Lineage 2


Classic server to be officially announced on May 21st.
https://eu.4game.com/lineage2classic/

Edit: May 21st, official announcement:
https://4gameforum.com/threads/lineage-2-classic-europe-what-is-next.26645/

Dear friends!

We all made quite some work. After this month we have 16555 votes, and it is a little bit more than our initial goal. That is great! I bet you all want to know what happens next, and here it is: we've started working towards opening the server. As you can imagine, it involves a lot of preparation, discussion, testing and other complicated stuff which we cannot talk about in details. There is still a risk that the project won't be launched if the circumstances are not in our favour. We appreciate your efforts and your involvement in this project. You've shown your desire to see Lineage 2 Classic in Europe, and it means a lot for us. Stay tuned, updates on the project will be posted on the forum as soon as we have them.

3. Darkfall Online


Aventurine have recently announced their intentions of bringing back the original Darkfall Online, alongside their current Unholy Wars release.
https://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?409055-Announcement-regarding-DFO-we-are-still-investigating-technical-issues&p=6502284&viewfull=1#post6502284

As for determining what state the classic server would be set in, since the notion of "classic" differs from person to person, a community vote could be held. Similar to the Everquest progression server, whatever state gets the most votes would determine the ruleset of that server.

[Roja323]

And what would you do if people voted for classic as abyssea era?

1) all 3 of those games still have expansions/are still supported
2) there arent enough people who would do it
3) whats the appeal of going back to 75 era where whole link shells spend years getting 1 person a relic/mythic?

[bungiefanNA]

Progression servers generally mean that they start the game over without expansions, and then roll through the content releases a bit faster than the original release schedule, so you go through 10 years of updates in 1-2 years. It lets people see how the game changed over time , and keeps old content relevant for a while for everyone again. If they wanted to do a static server that won't progress past a certain point, you have the question of where to draw the line, and what QoL changes to backport to compensate if the server population is too low. Would you really want to go without Level Sync, or Records of Eminence objectives at least giving guidance on where to find things? What about Trial of the Magians actually giving visible and meaningful progression towards useful equipment? This is a very complicated issue, when the focus of the staff now is reducing expenses.

[nekroturkey]

And what would you do if people voted for classic as abyssea era?

Easy, because Abyssea wouldn't be an option. It was a product made by Matsui and the new development team when they raised the level cap. "Classic" would encompass everything from Tanaka-era.


1) all 3 of those games still have expansions/are still supported

And so is FFXI, for the time being.


2) there arent enough people who would do it

Beg to differ, but then again, neither of us can really give concrete numbers on the amount of people interested in a classic server. The only way to know for sure would be to hold a community poll.


3) whats the appeal of going back to 75 era where whole link shells spend years getting 1 person a relic/mythic?

Doesn't matter if you personally don't see the appeal, but many people still do. If you prefer the way the game currently plays, then play on the main servers, and let the people that prefer the classic gameplay play on the classic servers.

[bungiefanNA]

Also, holding a community poll would be a hassle, if on these forums. You have to have an active FFXI Content ID to post here, or have had one in the past and not have your cookie expire. If they open it to the public, Reddit could troll it. If they keep it to forum users only, then only current players could do it, and having to pay to vote is a bad thing.

[nekroturkey]

If they wanted to do a static server that won't progress past a certain point, you have the question of where to draw the line, and what QoL changes to backport to compensate if the server population is too low.

Importing QoL changes wouldn't exactly make it classic anymore, but there's been a steady interest in the old-school MMO niche for awhile now. Project 1999 consistently has 1500+ active players at any given time, which was the average amount back during this game's golden era. 15,000 people have already signed the petition for a Lineage 2 classic server. Seems reasonable to assume that there's enough interest to support a single classic server for a game that has a much larger population than either of those games.


Would you really want to go without Level Sync, or Records of Eminence objectives at least giving guidance on where to find things?

Yes.


This is a very complicated issue, when the focus of the staff now is reducing expenses.

What about player retention and revenue; the potential a classic server could have on bringing people into the game, both new and old? A Darkfall developer had this to say when questioned about the decision to bring back Darkfall 1.0:

http://i.imgur.com/BFBSxzT.png


If they keep it to forum users only, then only current players could do it, and having to pay to vote is a bad thing.

Bad thing for whom? I can't imagine many pro-classic server players would mind paying to have their voice heard, if there was the slight possibility of having a classic server. It definitely wouldn't be a bad thing for Square either. Either way, if they held a community poll to gauge interest in having a classic server, good or bad, we'd finally have a definitive answer. So what's the harm?

Not like it costs anything to have a forum poll. In fact, it would probably generate enough buzz to make the headlines of some websites and forums, and you know what they say about publicity.

[Alhanelem]

The same argument as before: It would divide an already small population even further, with no guarantees it would bring more players back. Also, the nostalgia filter just doesn't live up in reality. We look back at the good old days and remember the fun we had, but it's just not the same. Further, nobody wants to roll back their character years and years, as much fun as they might think a classic server would be. The only people who would really win here are those who haven't played in years and years, and if you're one of those people, the probability is very high you've already moved on and wouldn't come back because something newer is occupying your time.

Finally, there's the "we don't want to spend the money" and such that SE would say if they actually responded to this. They don't even want to invest in the work required to be able to continue developing content updates after the death of their PS2 hardware. This would be a really hard sell to them.



What about player retention and revenue; the potential a classic server could have on bringing people into the game,This would have virtually no impact on player retention, because the peopel playing now are playing because they're happy with the game in its current state. I don't know anyone who's only playing because they're hoping a classic server will become a thing if they keep paying SE long enough. The game is not big enough for a classic server to have real likelyhood of generating significant extra revenue.

There is a virtually 0% chance that a classic server would bring in *new* players. The game has a reputation, and most of that reputation comes from its earlier years- Current MMO players would find classic XI's grind torturous, its cryptic quests (and lack of rewards within) frustrating, etc. That's not to say we didn't like it back then, but the dynamics of the industry have irreversibly changed; nobody wants to play a game as slow as XI was back in the day. It would certianly be a nice thing for old time players looking to scratch an itch. But that's a pretty small number of people.

I'm not saying in any way that the concept of the classic server is a bad thing in and of itself: I'm only saying why it most likely wouldn't happen. SE, if they've ever even looked at the idea, probably think the result wouldn't be worth the investment.

What works for one game won't necessairly work for another; just because this or that game made a classic server and got something out of it, doesn't mean it will work for another.

[nekroturkey]

The same argument as before: It would divide an already small population even further, with no guarantees it would bring more players back.


Further, nobody wants to roll back their character years and years, as much fun as they might think a classic server would be. The only people who would really win here are those who haven't played in years and years, and if you're one of those people, the probability is very high you've already moved on and wouldn't come back because something newer is occupying your time.

You're contradicting yourself a bit. You said in your opening sentence that it would divide the population, but now you're saying that no one would be interested?


Also, the nostalgia filter just doesn't live up in reality. We look back at the good old days and remember the fun we had, but it's just not the same.

You're assuming nostalgia would be the only driving factor. Some people believe the game was genuinely better back then, myself and more than half my shell included. Besides, numbers don't lie. Classic and progression servers have shown to be hugely successful.


Finally, there's the "we don't want to spend the money" and such that SE would say if they actually responded to this.

Any response would be better than no response, but supposition.


This would have virtually no impact on player retention, because the peopel playing now are playing because they're happy with the game in its current state. I don't know anyone who's only playing because they're hoping a classic server will become a thing if they keep paying SE long enough.

Supposition again. I've been subbing for a few months now, and I would jump at the chance to play on a classic server. Most of my friends quit once Abyssea came out, but would return if they introduced a classic server.


The game is not big enough for a classic server to have real likelyhood of generating significant extra revenue.

Yes it is, there are currently more people playing this than there are playing Darkfall and NA/EU Lineage 2. Yet those games can manage to have classic servers.


There is a virtually 0% chance that a classic server would bring in *new* players. The game has a reputation, and most of that reputation comes from its earlier years- Current MMO players would find classic XI's grind torturous, its cryptic quests (and lack of rewards within) frustrating, etc. That's not to say we didn't like it back then, but the dynamics of the industry have irreversibly changed; nobody wants to play a game as slow as XI was back in the day. It would certianly be a nice thing for old time players looking to scratch an itch. But that's a pretty small number of people.

Virtually 0%? This is total supposition, backed by your own personal feelings. I respect your opinion, but I'm going to need evidence to support what you're saying.


What works for one game won't necessairly work for another.

Then why is every MMO under the sun copying Warcraft? FFXIV included. Square have shown that they're willing to copycat things that are successful.

[Castanica]

Square don't want to put any effort into the game at all, so there is no way they would do this.

You can play solo on the ffxi phone app when it comes out at least!

[Roja323]

Well if it was a community poll, then why wouldn't abyssea be an option other than 'you dont want it'.

Also referencing illegal applications that SE has been legaly trying to stop as the basis for why you want something isn't exactly a smart idea unless you are trying to get the thread lock...

[Zarchery]

Well from a pure business perspective, it wouldn't make sense for Square Enix to build and maintain a product that virtually nobody wants.

From a player perspective, it wouldn't make sense to play a game where everything requires an alliance when you barely have the playerbase to build a single party.

[Rainehx]

Classic server, what's the argument for it now?

Given that they stated that the mobile client at first will go no father than COP for a while
there's going to little call for it at all.

Okay controls maybe different(bluetooth controls?) and a smaller screen(hdmi out?) and far from ideal.

Its also viable to develop due to the "new exiting mobile gaming market" rather than a stale older platform.

not saying it a bad idea, I just wouldnt be getting my hopes up and be happy of the possibility the mobile client may bring.

[Zarchery]

Classic server, what's the argument for it now?

I believe the argument for it is "I want it! I know like 5 other guys who want it. Therefore, extrapolating, there must be at least 2,000 people who want it.".

Classic FFXI barely worked in the days when average server population was 3,000. When it did work, it was largely because there weren't many other good options. Now you've got World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14. How is it gonna work when it's now 1/5 that? Especially when the population is divided among time zone and language barriers?

[Isal]

A classic server would inevitably experience the same player polarization where the group that got in on the ground level has all the jobs they care about into the upper levels, leaving an inadequate amount of players to form parties with for the stragglers and the curious late-comers. With no Level Sync or Trust system, the income of new players would slow to a trickle. Only so many veteran playerrs are going to be up to power leveling the late-comers (at least, the ones who are fine with leveling with a living-player-trust-system instead of the classic method that people want this kind of server for in the first place) and hopping on unused lvl 1 jobs to party with low levels will only go so far.

On the other end of the polarization, you'll eventually have people quitting because they're done, RL issues, etc, with hardly anyone new coming into the server to replace them, causing the population to drop. Then you're back to square one again.

I have nothing against the idea, I had the same desire with EverQuest, but it's sort of a growing pain when it comes to the nature of MMORPGs. SE is clearly looking to wrap up FFXI while putting out replacements to keep a numbered title of the FF franchise in existance in one form or another. They may feel like we already got our classic/progression server when the game originally launched, and don't see a point in financing a temporary revival of the original experience. Just because other games have progression servers doesn't mean FFXI must, and SE copy/pasted the WoW themepark formula to turn FFXIV from a broken game to a functioning one.

If FFXI Mobile turns out to be a full reboot, and not just a retooling of the client to access the same servers, that's likely to be the closest we're going to get, they're even dubbing it as a first step of the MMMRPG genre, which makes it seem unlikely that they'd suddenly put the work into a progression server that might interfere with FFXI mobile.

[machini]

Oh yeah, I'm gonna go back to 75 cap when it took me 5 hours to get a party 'cause I didn't play a useful job, and it'll take me a whole year to level a useful job, let alone gear it. And maybe, if I do a LOT of gardening, I'll have enough gil in 10 years to make a single relic.

Yeah, no. Please take off the rose-tinted glasses.

Also, Project1999, last time I played it, had roughly 700 people online at a time, and was absolutely horrible because there were a) no low level people to party with, b) half the classes no one wanted, so they were left attempting to solo, or giving up, because of the no-boxing rule.

[Seillan]

Oh yeah, I'm gonna go back to 75 cap when it took me 5 hours to get a party 'cause I didn't play a useful job, and it'll take me a whole year to level a useful job, let alone gear it. And maybe, if I do a LOT of gardening, I'll have enough gil in 10 years to make a single relic.

Yeah, no. Please take off the rose-tinted glasses.

Also, Project1999, last time I played it, had roughly 700 people online at a time, and was absolutely horrible because there were a) no low level people to party with, b) half the classes no one wanted, so they were left attempting to solo, or giving up, because of the no-boxing rule.

Pretty sure there's around twice that population during peak now. I've also never noticed any of the issues you mention, even during the times I played while the server was less populated. The only class I ever heard anyone really complain about was Ranger (because of how lackluster they are in classic) and maybe hybrids because of the xp penalty.

Not that I'm advocating for a FFXI classic server as I personally have no interest in it. Heck, I wouldn't have even came back if not for the addition of Trusts and RoE. The days of going hours without a group on my DRK are not days I ever want to relive. Even EQ wasn't so unforgiving in its heyday because you could still manage to solo on most classes if you knew what you were doing. It wasn't typically efficient in most cases but it was at least an option.

[madmartin]

i'd definitely support a classic server. lvl 75, everything up to and including Aht Urghan. (i would be ok with wotg but a lot of the wotg end game is post 75, mission line reward is lvl 90 ear ring etc so wouldn't work) You would need lvl sync to support lower population, but Fov, GoV and RoE is not needed, that way 6 man leveling groups would exist and their would be enough people to form them. There is more than enough demand for this to work.

Though a community poll probably wouldn't work on these forums as, as shown by whenever a classic server post comes up, everyone still on these forums is still playing current ffxi and thus probably isn't in favor of a classic server. Most people who are in favor are not on these forums.

[Alhanelem]

Any response would be better than no response, but supposition.I point you to the core reasons why major updates are stopping in the first place (Hint: It's not really about the number of players). Even if they in their hearts wanted to do this, it is probable they would have development issues from the lack of hardware. And yes, there would be development and costs involved in this; it would not be as simple as redistributing old client files (Which, there is no guarantee they still have them. Smart studios do often keep archives of their projects in an SVN but you never know...).

Also I have to agree with others who have said "what time do we go back to? Who decides?" and that it would be difficult to find a consensus. Most people speak of somewhere before level cap increase, but here's the thing: I don't really consider the level cap rise or Abyssea to have been bad things by themselves. The real problem, which the devs admitted, was the "Where do we go from here?". Abyssea was a power playground. It made you feel powerful and it was a lot of fun for a while. The problem came when abyssea reached its conclusion- there was no way any future content could really top or compete with it without simply copying its features (which voidwatch did to some degree). They couldn't just put atma and abyssea content straight into the open world, because that would break the rest of the open world. So basically, they created content which really could not be surpassed, leaving future content unable could not deliver any of the thrills or sense of power that Abyssea had- So when people were done with Abyssea, there was nothing left in the game that could compare, so players left. Eventually they found a fairly decent way to go about it- however, it came way too late.

-- bla bla bla get to the point --

I think that releasing this would be damaging to the current version of the game, which has its share of players enjoying it and whom shouldn't be penalized from development efforts diverted to release this side project. I also wonder how long people would really enjoy the classic version, knowing it would get no updates (otherwise, it would eventually not be classic anymore). I'd think you'd have people getting bored after a while and then the effort invested in it would be wasted.

[Alhanelem]

Also, as has been pointed out: The mobile version of the game will make its way here, and that will probably work to take people back since it's going to initally start with not all of the expansion content avialable. But SE contracted that out to someone else, they're not doing it themselves.


Then why is every MMO under the sun copying Warcraft? FFXIV included. Square have shown that they're willing to copycat things that are successful. Well, it doesn't always work. Even when it does, the things you notice and like the most tend to be the things that aren't directly taken from WoW. Keep in mind also that WoW itself took plenty of things from games before it. WoW was primarily successful because of marketing- not because it was original, even for its time.

Ultimately, I think marketing was a major issue for SE with FFXI. It was really not marketed very well, especially outside of Japan. FFXIV is doing much better in the marketing department, and I think that's the real reason it's been successful. I got into FFXI originally at its launch because I was tired of waiting for world of warcraft to come out and a friend showed XI to me and I was like "hey that's cool." So I ended up playing FFXI. But once WoW came out and took off, XI's population immediately stagnated. If WoW had come out sooner, FFXI might not have ever been anywhere near as successful as it was.

[nekroturkey]

Classic FFXI barely worked in the days when average server population was 3,000.

There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.

[Alhanelem]

There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.
Correlation does not imply causation. The reason we have fewer players now has very little to do with preferring the older style of gameplay. There are many, many factors at work.

You're right the numbers don't lie. The problem is your interpretation of those numbers is flawed at best.

The most obvious factor is simply the game is old. People move on. The fact that there are fewer players now than many years ago does not imply the game is now bad when it was good before (Even WoW is far off its peak population- Although it remains strong today because of solid marketing). People have myriad reasons for leaving.
Some people left because they didn't like game changes. I know some people who left because they didn't make game changes fast enough (if they don't fix this job soon, I quit; a friend once said to me).
Some people left simply because they got bored of the same old game, even in spite of new content and features, whether they were good or not.
Some people left because new games came out that captured their interest (and that doesn't mean the game got worse for them, just something piqued their interest and they ran with it).
Some people left because they just don't have time for the game anymore. People's lives change, they get jobs, interests change, etc.
Your logic is flawed, because it operates under the presumption that "the old game is better" is the only reason players may have left. For some people, that may be a reason. Ask anyone on the street today if they've played an MMO. If they answer yes, ask them if they've played FFXI or heard of it. Few people will answer yes, and if they've heard of it, its very probable they've heard of it because of FFXI characters in other games (Dissidia FF, Thetarythm FF)

Honestly, FFXI always had a relatively low new player retention rate, because the game is pretty brutal, even to a new player, and even today it still is, compared to other games on the market. They get frustrated and leave before they discover the good stuff. I introduced many players ot this game, even in its early days. Most did not make it past level 10 and most never got to see the epic storylines in this game. So FFXI's real problem to me has always been that it was hard for them to hang on to new players long enough for them to get them hooked.

[nekroturkey]

You're right the numbers don't lie. The problem is your interpretation of those numbers is flawed at best.

Not really. More people played classic XI than there are currently playing right now. That's pretty much indisputable.


The most obvious factor is simply the game is old.

Age means nothing, if an 11 year-old game like Warcraft is able to hit 10 million subscribers in 2014/2015. Being old won't inherently cause populations to dwindle.


Also referencing illegal applications that SE has been legaly trying to stop as the basis for why you want something isn't exactly a smart idea unless you are trying to get the thread lock...

What?

[Alhanelem]

Not really. More people played classic XI than there are currently playing right now. That's pretty much indisputable. You're missing the point. Like I said. The numbers are right. Your interpretation of them is wrong. The *REASON* more people played then is not simply "classic FFXI is better than new FFXI". **ALL MMOs** (Even WoW) lose players over time. WoW is far off its peak subscriber base. That doesn't mean that the reason people left is solely because the game was better on XYZ date.

You pretty much didn't read anything I wrote, and that tells me you're trolling, and not willing to respect any viewpoint that isn't your own.


Age means nothing, if an 11 year-old game like Warcraft is able to hit 10 million subscribers in 2014/2015. Being old won't inherently cause populations to dwindle. Warcraft's success is largely due to marketing. FFXI was barely marketed at all in the US. Marketing is what keeps bringing people back every time there's a new update. WoW keeps getting faster, and there's plenty of people who liked the game when it was older. But in spite of that, the game is still quite successful today. It does still have less players than when it was newer, just like FFXI has less players than when it was newer, however.

You argue that classic is better and that's why people are gone now, but people say the same thing in WoW. The reason WoW has more players is better marketing. I don't know how else to say it. If anything you response counters your own argument because FFXI has been making many gradual shifts in WoW's direction, and yet hasn't grown. Why hasn't it grown? because SE doesn't give a crap about marketing it. This is really the biggest reason FFXI did not build a millions-strong playerbase. It really could have done it, even if it had today's content years ago.

Your counterarguments are based on flawed comparisons, and not understanding of the true reasons. FFXI might be on life support now, but did you know that when the game was originally made, they didn't even plan for it to last half as long as it has? They thought the game was going to be dead 5 years ago or more. To me, the fact that it's still here, even with less players, speaks volumes about how good it is. Many online games come and go, and they thought this would be no different, but it was different.

[nekroturkey]

You pretty much didn't read anything I wrote, and that tells me you're trolling, and not willing to respect any viewpoint that isn't your own.

I already told you that I respect your opinion, but that's all you're giving me is your opinion. If you want to have an actual discussion, I'm going to need sources and numbers, which you haven't yet provided.

[Alhanelem]

I already told you that I respect your opinion, but that's all you're giving me is your opinion. If you want to have an actual discussion, That's fine, but what you're giving is opinion as well. You seemed to insist that what you were saying was simply fact (and that was based on a misinterpretation of what I was saying).


I'm going to need sources and numbers, which you haven't yet provided.Your sources and numbers don't prove anything. I'm not here to prove a fact. Although the information there is dated, you can see graphs of population data at mmocharts.com and probably other places, though. All MMOs eventually lose players off their peak. No game grows forever and that can easily be seen by looking at the stats for virtually any and all games on Steam, whether MMO, free to play, single player, or any other kind of game (feel free to look up and compare games on http://steamcharts.com/ ).

You say that the only (or biggest) reason why there are fewer players now is because the "classic" game ( we really don't have a clear definition of where the game was the most "classic") was better and people left purely because the game moved away from that. That is an opinion, not a fact. The fact is, as I explained in many more words in previous posts, that there are many reasons for people leaving the game. You responded "But WoW still has players!" However, WoW is off it's peak players as well. Not as far off, but there has still been a decline.

Here's the thing. I'm not disputing your assertion that "There are fewer players now than there were back in the day." I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is your stated reason of WHY the numbers are the way they are. You have an opinion of that, and so do I. Our opinions are not in agreement, but they are both opinions. You say you respect mine, and I respect yours. So, it is probably best that we agree to disagree.

[nekroturkey]

That's fine, but what you're giving is opinion as well. You seemed to insist that what you were saying was simply fact (and that was based on a misinterpretation of what I was saying).

I'm not saying that I believe a classic server would be successful because it's what I want, but rather that a classic server would be successful, due to the success of classic/progression servers in other MMOs. My opinion isn't fact, but it's based on fact. The facts that I've provided (with sources) are the basis for my belief.

What we know for a fact:


There were more people playing FFXI back then, than there are people playing FFXI now. You said that people are currently playing the game because they're happy with the way that it plays. I agree, people wouldn't pay to play a game that they don't enjoy. So by that same logic, there were more people back then that enjoyed the way the game used to play than there are people now that enjoy the way the game currently plays. Thus, more people prefer the classic mechanics to the current mechanics.


Everquest, Lineage 2, and Darkfall Online recognize the potential of classic servers and the amount of players interested in them. Even Runescape has classic servers now. Project 1999 consistently has 1500+ players playing at any given time (that Daybreak/SOE have officially recognized) with an official Everquest progression server being released soon. Lineage 2 reached 15,000 signatures supporting a classic server, and Darkfall Online will be bringing back their original servers due to player demand. Even the developers of Darkfall believe that a classic server would be good for their current servers:

http://i.imgur.com/BFBSxzT.png

[Alhanelem]

I'm not saying that I believe a classic server would be successful because it's what I want, but rather that a classic server would be successful, due to the success of classic/progression servers in other MMOs.While I have no problem with you suggesting that there is a chance for this to be successful because other people succeeded, as I have stated before, other games having success with it is NOT a guarantee that it will work for this game. While you have cited that some games' developers have indicated player demand for such a feature, there has been no such data to indicate such a demand here. Other than this topic occasionally appearing here (and going away fairly quickly) with a couple people saying they like the idea, I've seen little to suggest that there is much demand for it in this game. I rarely see anyone talk about it in game, and there has not been very much discussion about it here. This thread has been mostly you and me arguing, with only a few others commenting in any way.


Thus, more people prefer the classic mechanics to the current mechanics.This is a highly dubious statement, as you have no reliable statistics to back it up. SOME people do prefer one, and SOME people prefer another. We have no reliable data that says how many prefer each. We also have no reliable data that tells us the specific reason that people that are not currently playing have left. You seem to be under the impression that every person not currently playing the game is not playing it because they think the current game is inferior to the state of the game at some point in the past. As I have mentioned on multiple occasions and you seem to have ignored, there are many reasons for a player to leave the game that have little to do with their perception of the current state of the game vs the state of the game at some unspecified date in the past. I will once again list many of these reasons:

-Player can no longer afford to play / don't want to spend money on it anymore, independent of their like for the game
-Player lost interest through no fault of the game design but simply has had enough of the game
-Changes in life circumstances made it not possible for the player to keep playing
-Technical issues or other non-gameplay problems prevented them from playing and caused them to quit
-Player doesn't like how the game has changed over time (your stated reason)
-Player was socially ostracized (fairly uncommon but it does happen) leading them to quit
-Player was banned
-Player left game to join a game a friend was playing. This can independent of the player's personal happines with the game.
-Player couldn't figure the game out or didn't like the game and left before becoming a paying customer in the first place.

Your reason is one among many. You have no data that can tell us how many people left for what reason. There is also no data that can predict how many old players would return based purely on the addition of a classic server.

You can keep stating your facts about other studios making classic servers, but I will keep stating the fact that those companies doing so is in no way a guarantee that it would work for or be right for this game. But to play with your argument, I'd like to point out that WoW, a game you've cited on numerous occasions, does not have classic servers nor have I seen any indication they plan on making such a thing. If classic servers are so universally wonderful, one would expect that WoW would be doing this- after all, WoW has changed a lot since it launched, just as every MMO before and after it.

There are many reasons a player may leave the game, and there are many reasons they may or may not return. A classic server might help, or it might not. It's certainly possible, and the fact that some companies have succeeded with it indicates a possibility. It does not, however, guarantee that possibility. You are welcome to your opinion that it is more probable than not. I disagree, however I respect that opinion. You aren't going to sway me with the information you currently are offering, nor does it seem I will sway you with logic and theory. It is in our best interests to agree to disagree. That's what I'm going to do now, and I hope you will do the same.

[nekroturkey]

While I have no problem with you suggesting that there is a chance for this to be successful because other people succeeded, as I have stated before, other games having success with it is NOT a guarantee that it will work for this game.

Like you said, other players have made similar threads in the past. You even said yourself that creating a classic server would divide the population, meaning there are enough current players interested in a classic server to disrupt the populations on the main servers.


This is a highly dubious statement, as you have no reliable statistics to back it up. SOME people do prefer one, and SOME people prefer another. We have no reliable data that says how many prefer each.

We have enough data to determine that there were more people playing back then than there are people playing now. Now by your logic from earlier, which I agree with, people only pay to play games they enjoy. People are playing now because they enjoy the game now. People were playing then because they enjoyed the game then.

Now since there were more people playing back then than there are now, we can say with 100% certainty that more people would be interested in playing the game as it once was, rather than as it is now.

[bungiefanNA]

There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.

There could be many reasons for why there were more players then. When the game launched in 2002, EQ was the most known MMO, and FFXI was based on its design. There weren't many other choices. Also, FFXI was the first MMORPG on a console, and had a big known brand name on it, so you got a huge influx of JP players on it right away. The name got it lots of attention when it released in English on PC as well. All MMORPGs back then had lots of grinding for everything, it was accepted design. WoW's release changed that, especially after an expansion or two, and people started copying that, removing grind in some places. Some MMO players are also short-term players to any single game, they keep jumping to new ones.

I started this game when I was 19. I'm now 32. I don't have the free time I did as a youth, and I wouldn't start a game like FFXI again now if it had the grind that the original game did. A lot of the veteran population is in a similar situation. I was single, not in college yet, and had low living expenses while working to save up for school, so I had many hours to play. Now I work a job with longer hours (including weeks where I am on-call 24/7), am married (a serious relationship is hard to have with an MMO that takes 8+ hours a day), and have living expenses I have to deal with. The people that were in the situation I was 13 years ago have many more choices, and antiquated design like FFXI is not going to appeal to them now. FFXI was like an iPhone back in 2006, before Android really came out in force. Choice was so few, you went with that option or not at all. Now you have the choice of hundreds of games, so the population is going to be spread across them more, and each game is going to get a thinner share.

[Isal]

Either you're going to argue that other MMO's successfully created classic servers, or you're going to argue "more people were playing back then, ergo, the game was better back then", but you can't have both without contradicting yourself.

I'm fairly certain that in any example you point to of an MMORPG that has a classic server, that one server is outnumbered by the normal servers, and its population is outnumbered by the combined population of the game's normal servers combined. In short, within the scope of just the MMORPG with the classic server, there are more people playing the game as it currently is than there are playing on the game's classic server.

If you're going to say that FFXI was better back then because more people were playing back then, then it suggests that these MMOs with classic servers are actually better games on their standard servers than on their classic servers, because more people are playing on the standard servers than the classic ones.

[Zarchery]

There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.

This is a really dumb conclusion to draw, that the ONLY reason more people played in the past was because they liked things like taking 9-12 months to level a job, or waiting 3 hours to have a chance to claim a Notorious Monster, or liked needing a full alliance to do anything, or liked that endgame linkshells were basically pyramid schemes where the earliest joiners got the best items while later joiners spent countless hours grinding or camping an NM for a hope at the scraps.

As Analenhem said, there are a host of reasons people likely left: less time due to real life commitments, simple boredom, being drawn to another game. I've known dozens of people who quit, and not a one of them did so because Abyssea or Adoulin era content was too easy. You're simply attributing your preferences to large masses of people to support your thesis.

[Zarchery]

I'm not saying that I believe a classic server would be successful because it's what I want, but rather that a classic server would be successful, due to the success of classic/progression servers in other MMOs. My opinion isn't fact, but it's based on fact. The facts that I've provided (with sources) are the basis for my belief.

This sounds like the exact same fallacy that TV executives make when they rip off some popular show (like Friends or Sex in the City) to make another show (like Joey or Lipstick Jungle). They believe that the basic format will instantly guarantee success. But it fails more often than not.

[nekroturkey]

If you're going to say that FFXI was better back then because more people were playing back then, then it suggests that these MMOs with classic servers are actually better games on their standard servers than on their classic servers, because more people are playing on the standard servers than the classic ones.

There are more people playing on Project 1999's server than any single server of Everquest. Darkfall Online (1.0) had more players than Unholy Wars (2.0) currently does. There are currently more people playing on the Lineage 2 classic servers in Korea than there are people playing on the standard servers. Once Lineage 2's international classic server is released, we'll see how well it does over here.

So actually, you're mistaken.

[Alhanelem]

I started this game when I was 19. I'm now 32. I don't have the free time I did as a youth, and I wouldn't start a game like FFXI again now if it had the grind that the original game did.This is almost exactly my selfsame story (I was 18 and now 31 :p). And I still drop in on the game often even if I'm not continuously active. It's largely a matter of time to play. You have to remember just how much time has passed since many of us fell in love with the game. A lot can happen in that amount of time that has literally nothing to do with the game itself. Even the youngest players of the game when it was new are now full fledged adults.

[nekroturkey]

Even the youngest players of the game when it was new are now full fledged adults.

Most of the people who played Everquest when it came out were adults to begin with.


This is a really dumb conclusion to draw

No, it isn't. If they were paying to play, then chances are they were enjoying themselves. If they weren't enjoying themselves, then chances are they would've stopped paying to play. What's dumb is paying to play a game that you hate, which it sounds like you did, which is quite odd.

[Alhanelem]

Most of the people who played Everquest when it came out were adults to begin with. And.....?


What's dumb is paying to play a game that you hate, which it sounds like you did, which is quite odd. He's not saying he didn't like the game. He liked the game in spite of what he saw as flaws looking back. And I agree they were flaws. There are so many enjoyable parts to the game, both back then and today, but the extreme grind and competing with 100+ people for the chance to fight a monster was really not the best part of the game to me. Even when I was doing it; the endless waiting around doing nothing didn't take long to outweigh the thrill of winning the pull (which was pure luck, pretty much)

The biggest draws for me, especially in the earlier years, were the strong storyline, the wide range of classes, the core mechanics of the combat system, and just the feel of the world itself. For the most part all of those things remain today. The biggest negative is in progression becoming more vertical (however, it's still not nearly as much so as any other MMO I've played), but that didn't push me away. Mostly it has been a free time issue, and there are so many single player and other non MMO games that I want to play that I just can't devote the same level of time to an MMO (any MMO) that i once could.

You need to accept that people come and go for different reasons. Just because some people (like myself) have come and gone or play much less than they used to, that doesn't mean that the reason for it is because they miss the old game and can't get it back. There is no way I (and zarchery and others without forum representation) would play on a classic server, largely because there are too many fun things that have come out since the early days. The things I would want most that I don't have now would require me to literally go back in time- a classic server today wouldn't fix my issues. E.g. I want to go back in time to when Ballista enjoyed some popularity. The people I see most wanting the classic server almost definitely do not want it for that reason and therefore I would have the same problem there that I do now: Nobody does Ballista anymore. Only a time machine would fix that (Even fixing ballista up wouldn't fix that because most people have made up their minds).

You may find it crazy, you may find it irrational, but all it takes is a scanning of this thread (and the other ones before it) to realize that there's hardly a united front on this issue. The players who stand to benefit the most are the hardest of the hardcore. I'm not trying to suggest they don't deserve to have as much fun as anyone else, but if you can't please everybody, why would you prioritize the tip of the bell curve rather than the mass in the middle? Some people want it, some people don't. Great- But should we really fracture the already small community just for the sake of trying to make SE some extra money ?

[nekroturkey]

Great- But should we really fracture the already small community just for the sake of trying to make SE some extra money ?

I'm still not sure which direction you're going. Do you believe a classic server would divide the community, or do you believe that no one would be interested? Because you're flip-flopping a bit.

[Alhanelem]

I'm still not sure which direction you're going. Do you believe a classic server would divide the community, or do you believe that no one would be interested? Because you're flip-flopping a bit.
I never said that "no one" is interested, therefore I'm not "flip flopping." What I *did* say is it's primarily one specific segment of the player base that has the most interest.

If you remove that one segment (which is integral to the health of the community regardless of size) and place it in it's own little world, you are damaging the health of the community that you took the population from.

[nekroturkey]

I never said that "no one" is interested


Further, nobody wants to roll back their character years and years

If you say so.

[kaerin]

Would they really have to do much other than make a new server, not allow transfers to it, and disable limit breaks above lvl 75? Personally I think that would be pretty cool and I'd make a character on it.

[nekroturkey]

Would they really have to do much other than make a new server, not allow transfers to it, and disable limit breaks above lvl 75? Personally I think that would be pretty cool and I'd make a character on it.

No, they would have to shut down the current servers and force everyone to play like it was 2006 all over again. Or at least, that's how everyone here is reacting. In reality though, yeah that's all they'd have to do.

[vienne]

I dont see it happening, but yeah if they would do it I'd probably make a character on there ...would have to have some QoL adjustments though (cant see myself playing anymore without all those cool warps) and lvl sync.

[Shirai]

I dont see it happening, but yeah if they would do it I'd probably make a character on there ...would have to have some QoL adjustments though (cant see myself playing anymore without all those cool warps) and lvl sync.

And this is why it isn't likely to happen, a lot of people mostly want the old gameplay back but with the conveniences of today's ffxi.
It all adds up to the following:
http://theinternationalstudentcafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/holding-money.jpg
The main argument against a Classic/Legacy server is cold hard cash.

[Alhanelem]

No, they would have to shut down the current servers and force everyone to play like it was 2006 all over again. Or at least, that's how everyone here is reacting. In reality though, yeah that's all they'd have to do.
Incorrect. It would require development work It's not simply a matter of loading up a server with old software. They'd have to update playonline, they'd have to update the SE management system, they'd have to somehow backport your characters since it's highly improbable they have backups of player data that far back. The game itself would still require some adjustments because even the people who want the classic server probably want to have certain improvements made (see 2posts above) outside the realm of content- it would require development time that would take the team away from performing whatever sot of updates they might do after the "fall of Dalamud." There is work involved. It's not like they can just press a button and give us a server from any moment in FFXI's past.

Work costs money, therefore, see the beautiful graphic above that illustrates the problem.

[Roja323]

People who think that it requires no time/money to make a progression server are the trolls...

1) A progression server is 1000000x different than a 'old school' server, which is what people want.

2) All the examples of classic/progression servers from other game all keep modern amenities (in our case, level sync, RoE, Home Points) and you would have to go through RoZ and once a guild beats a sky god CoP would unlock, and once a guild beats AV, ToAU would unlock etc. Which is great in theory, except stuff like AV wasn't really beatable, and neither was PW in their original state without cheating. So do you go for the new versions of those bosses that people fight today, or the unbeatable versions from 'classic' times and just accept that no one will ever pass CoP (no toau, no wotg, etc)

3) Games like EQ have stated that it was a huge challenge to have classic servers. its not like you have a save state of what the code looked like back in 1999. Once they developed it the first time, going forward they made sure all future expansions could be coded into a progression style system, and i am willing to bet its the same with FFXI, there is no 'state 0' and it would require tons of time/effort (all of which they said isn't going to happen) just to get the game back to a state that is that old. Its not impossible as it can be done, but its not the 'effortless' easy money maker you make it out to be.


I would be willing to play on a progression server that kept modern amenities (home points, survival guides, RoE) but not on a classic server stuck in Pre ToAU (or Pre WoTG) state forever for the sole sake of 'how fun' it was to be 1 of 3 jobs that could get a merit party or the 1 lucky link shell leader who tricked 20+ people into building him a relic weapon. The grind to level may have been somewhat enjoyable, but the endgame content was awful.

[Alhanelem]

This would be an amazing idea OP.

I'm surprised after how much trolling Alhanelem does in every single thread posted that he isn't banned.

I'm more surprised that even after posted several times different success stories of many games where progression servers have worked or people enjoying earlier eras have equated to being more than the current era of the game, that people like him will argue that the validity is opposite and that there would be no way it would work here.

After the recent announcement of the games demise, it would be unfathomable for them not to take the opportunity to do this. It is an undisputable fact from experience with this through other games that this would be a success for SE. If they choose to do so.

It's so enjoyable to see though all the supporting evidence towards one. Apparently people like zachery and Zlhanelem think their word is fact though. Keep up the good fight!I'm not trolling anyone, I'm not breaking any rules, so of course I'm not banned. I'm more suprised you haven't been because you keep randomly appearing on this board just to slander me.

Last I checked, discussing an issue in a thread is not a crime. Just because I don't agree with someone and try to support my arguments does not make me a troll. You are being very rude and inflammatory naming names and pointing fingers while adding nothing to the discussion about the topic.


People who think that it requires no time/money to make a progression server are the trolls...
Actually, there are times where I'm not really clear which one is really what the OP wants. The problem with a "classic server" as ive been seeing it described is it stays frozen in one point in time. The problem here is that can only last so long before the people on it get bored from a lack of updates. That is definitely less of an issue for FFXI now than it would have been before recent announcements. But despite talking about a "classic server" the OP in this thread was using examples of "progression servers" in other games to support his argument.

I'm glad somebody here realizes that SE can't just wave a magic wand and make a classic server appear.


I would be willing to play on a progression server that kept modern amenities (home points, survival guides, RoE) but not on a classic server stuck in Pre ToAU (or Pre WoTG) state forever for the sole sake of 'how fun' it was to be 1 of 3 jobs that could get a merit party or the 1 lucky link shell leader who tricked 20+ people into building him a relic weapon. The grind to level may have been somewhat enjoyable, but the endgame content was awful. What you describe would have been far more preferable to what the OP described. I fear it's probably still too late for such a thing, but had I been new or wanting to start over and such a thing existed, it might have been interesting to ditch the turbo mode and having to complete the content in order.

[Alhanelem]

Slander..... lol

You consistently troll these forums and anyone that stays around long enough knows it.

Don't also state this as "random". You know I'm one of the players that has a sub to this game that vouches for this in every thread that always gets created, since you troll in every single thread that is created with this idea. Well, I guess you might get lost with who you are trolling since you do it so much.
I don't troll ANYONE. Just because my opinions are different from yours, doesn't mean I'm trolling. I don't post differing opinions on purpose; What I post is genuinely how I feel, and I'm sorry that you're unable to see that. You clearly don't know what the word troll means. And because of that, I'm going to do what any sensible person being attacked would do and should have done a long time ago.

At least you came out and admitted you blindly vouch for every thread you see just for the sake of doing so, and you also admitted you don't simply randomly appear to bash me, you categorically seek it out, which is harassment. The point of a discussion is to let your thoughts and opinions be heard. That's what I'm doing, no more, no less. You aren't doing that at all. Thus, I'm not going to engage you any further and I'm taking the appropriate steps to ensure that I don't have to in the future.

Although the OP and I have very strong differences of opinion, neither of us has been particularly rude, called anyone names, and while I don't agree with him, I do respect him for being as passionate about his opinions as I. I apologize to all the other participants of this thread for this brief digression from anything relating to the topic. Apparently being targeted for stuff like this is the price I have to pay for being passionate about a topic.

[kaerin]

A 75 cap server would be so easy to implement. Like I said earlier, just make a new server, don't allow transfers to it, then remove limit break quests above level 75. Just leave everything else in the game and let the new stuff be added like normal. It would take very little development time, and there's lots of people who want a 75 cap server. SE would probably get a bunch of new money with this kind of server, the demand is obviously there.

[Alhanelem]

I'm inclined to agree. I respect other people's opinions, but that's all he's given me. When I asked for sources and data to back up his claims, he never provided any.
I did provide sources, but because what I'm sharing is opinion and theory, it's not dependent on sources. I never once claimed that I was stating facts except where i provided sources of information (which you've apparently glossed over).

This is a discussion and I'm giving opinions, not facts. You have given both facts and opinions, although in some cases your interpretation of the facts you've provided is flawed. You've drawn conclusions from the facts you've provided that can not be asserted by those facts. E.g. you used the simple fact that there was more players and now there's less (Something any FFXI player could have told you without even referring to a source), which is absolutely true. However, you made assumptions based on those facts.

So I ask a question: Are you demanding that I prove that people leave the game for other reasons than "the game used to be more fun?" I'd be happy to conduct a survey if you'd like, but simple observation and talking to people will reveal that there are many reasons. I'm not refusing to provide sources, but you'll need to tell me what exactly you need a source for, because I'm not really trying to prove anything, I'm just giving my opinions. If you want a source for the fact that not everyone wants a classic server, i submit this thread as a source, because I'm not the only person in this thread that's skeptical of the idea.

As I said, I have respect for you because you've been a civil participant. But you've also been rather dismissive of viewpoints other than your own, just because you have "facts" that don't prove your hypothesis. I'm repeating myself here, but my problem is not your facts. My problem is your interpretation of them. You can't just say anything you want because you have XYZ fact. Let me copy what you've done to prove a point: It's a fact that it is 76 degrees F in my room right now. Therefore, the Yankees will win the next world series. While this is very "out there", the point is, you're making assertions that can't be made with the facts you've provided. You're asserting that because a couple other games implemented a classic server with good results, that FFXI is assured of achieving the same were it to do so. Your facts do not guarantee the suggested outcome.


A 75 cap server would be so easy to implement. Like I said earlier, just make a new server, don't allow transfers to it, then remove limit break quests above level 75. Just leave everything else in the game and let the new stuff be added like normal. It would take very little development time, and there's lots of people who want a 75 cap server. SE would probably get a bunch of new money with this kind of server, the demand is obviously there. Beyond making a lot of content impossible, and disabling new spells and abilities, how does this make the game more fun? I'm not comprehending what it is about levels 76-99 that makes the game less fun by itself. This is just my opinion, not an asserted fact, but to me, the real strength of the 75-and-prior era, beyond what I've mentioned in the past, is the strength of the community. Everyone needed each other and it was the chatting and interacting with others and facing challenges together that made made the game fun. Leveling up by itself was rather boring. Doing it with others and cooperating to achieve a better result was what made it fun- In three words: The Social Aspect. The biggest problem I see now is just the social aspect is much weaker. This doesn't really have a lot to do with the level cap itself.

Since I'm being demanded to cite sources, I'd like to ask you to provide a source that indicates "the demand is obviously there." It takes more than the number of people posting in this forum (on this and past threads on the topic) to demonstrate the demand. That's far too small a sample size.

I'm enjoying the conversation as a whole, but people need to keep in mind we already know SE's plans for the future of the game, and the closest thing we are getting to a "classic server" is going to be the mobile game. It won't have all content at launch, so that's really about as close as you're going to get.

[kaerin]

If demand wasn't there then these threads wouldn't exist. And neither would p****** s****** that have a cap of 75 and more people playing on them than some actual servers.


Edit; personally I can't wait for the smart phone version. Its going to be fun playing through the game again as it was released or however they do it.

[Alhanelem]

If demand wasn't there then these threads wouldn't exist. And neither would p****** s****** that have a cap of 75 and more people playing on them than some actual servers.This thread is not sufficient proof of demand. There are also people posting in it, and not just myself, that are against it. You also have no sources to prove your bleeped assertion, not that you could probably provide such a source without it getting deleted.

You've also not told me why the level cap itself is totally to blame for all this. That's nothing more than a theory and something that can't be proven. The game started with a level 50 cap, so why not go all the way back there, if more levels = bad?

[Isal]

Apples to oranges aside, I have nothing against them making a classic server. Worst case scenario it busts, and the people who left for it either quit or simply reactivate their current content IDs if they want to go back to the current state of the game.

Any concern about a divided playerbase as a result is semi-moot since that exact same issue is going to come around next year assuming FFXI Mobile doesn't get scrubbed. Sure, it may not exactly draw away the same players who'd leave for a classic server, but it'll inevitably draw some away, even if only temporarily. (I know I'll be looking into it when/if it releases, and I'm no special snowflake)


[...]
Edit; personally I can't wait for the smart phone version. Its going to be fun playing through the game again as it was released or however they do it.

They've stated that they're attempting to recapture the spirit of Final Fantasy XI while rebuilding the client from the ground up for the mobile platform, and have specifically stated they intend to improve on things such as UI, the ability to solo, and the ease of getting a party together. I wouldn't expect it to be a mobile copy/paste of Final Fantasy XI circa 2002.

[kaerin]

Because I only used this thread as evidence of demand right?

[Alhanelem]

Any concern about a divided playerbase as a result is semi-moot since that exact same issue is going to come around next year assuming FFXI Mobile doesn't get scrubbed. I admit I'm shooting in the dark here, but I don't think all the same people who would play a classic server would be the ones playing the mobile app. There is likely some overlap, but the mobile app will eventually get later-on FFXI content, so that won't last forever. Also, it could be less damaging to the current population because since it's on another device and it's completely seperate, you could play both at the same time- one at home and one when you can't be. :p

But at the present time, the prospects of the app don't seem great because they've done virtually nothing to promote it other than the announcement. They've done nothing yet to get us hyped for it or anything. Where are the social media posts, etc?


Because I only used this thread as evidence of demand right?This thread is equally able to demonstrate a lack of demand. Demand greater than zero != sufficient demand to warrant research into the issue and/or action by SE. Which, in the course of approximately three threads on the subject, they've remained silent.

[nekroturkey]

So I ask a question: Are you demanding that I prove that people leave the game for other reasons than "the game used to be more fun?" I'd be happy to conduct a survey if you'd like, but simple observation

If you could provide me with some relatively good examples of classic servers failing to retain enough players to thrive, I'd appreciate it. Something tangible to validate the idea that a classic server wouldn't be advantageous from your point of view.

I've read everything you've written so far, and while I see where you're coming from, I'm not yet convinced of the disadvantages of a classic server.

[kaerin]

P****** s****** exist with the 75 cap and have more players than some actual servers. This shows that more than enough demand exists for a 75 cap server to exist. I'm not sure why you keep trying to ignore this anhelalhem but its the truth. Get over yourself.

[Alhanelem]

If you could provide me with some relatively good examples of classic servers failing to retain enough players to thrive, I'd appreciate it. Something tangible to validate the idea that a classic server wouldn't be advantageous from your point of view.

I've read everything you've written so far, and while I see where you're coming from, I'm not yet convinced of the disadvantages of a classic server.
There isn't a sufficient number of games that have attempted this for data to be reliable. I'm not trying to assert to you that a classic server would inevitably fail. What I am trying to tell you is that a lack of notable failiures to date does not mean that success is guaranteed. I could win 100 hands of blackjack in a row, but that doesn't mean I'm going to win forever.

On a personal level I've already told you why a classic server wouldn't be advantageous from my point of view: I wouldn't play on it, because I like the way the game is now, and because you would need a time machine to get the actual kind of enjoyment I got out of the earlier verisons of the game. to cite my previous example: I love ballista. In the months following its release, I could play it as much as I wanted. But some people didn't like certain thigns about it and it wasn't easy to get into. A classic server would not solve this problem because people have made up their minds about the content and / or have already experienced their share of it. If I went to a classic server, it is highly unlikely i would be able to enjoy my favorite content from an earlier era the same way that I originally did 7+ years ago. I can't give you a source to prove why I don't find it advantageous, because that source is me. If you can assert that 3 examples of successful classic servers guarantees an FFXI classic server would succeed, then it's not unreasonable for me to assert that if I and a couple others don't find a classic server advantageous, then there are others who won't as well.

An author writing 5 books that all become wildly popular best sellers is not a guarantee that the 6th book he writes will be equally successful.
Apple making smash hit product after smash hit product does not guarantee they will never release a dud product that doesn't take off.
SE itself made so many successful games in the Final Fantasy franchise, that nobody thought they could possibly fail as hard as they did with FFXIV 1.0, but they did.

In other words: Past performance can be a good indicator of future performance, but it's not a guarantee. You seem convinced that there's no way it could fail by pointing to the lack of currently existing failiures. All I'm trying to communicate to you is that while it is certainly possible it could work, it's NOT GUARANTEED.

Really, the only thing I want from you is to accept that there is more than one reason why a player would leave the game. You seem to be of the opinion that the only reason in the world we could possibly have fewer players now than 10 years ago is because the game was in some way better back then. Nobody leaves an MMO for any other reason according to you. Personally, I have temporairly left the game on more than one occasion because I needed to save money and on other occasions because I was simply too busy to play. At some point in the future after content updates stop, I will likely leave the game because nothing new will be coming in to keep it fresh (And not because the newer content is poorly designed or bad- but because we simply have obtained all the enjoyment out of it. People lose interest in some things over time, it's only natural.)

I really want to know why you don't think that a classic server (or progression server, whichever it is you actually want as they're not the same thing) would be damaging to the latest version of the game. With their lack of development resources, I'm not yet convinced that they could adequately maintain two different versions of the game. The mobile version doesn't count because a different company altogether is maintaining that.

[Isal]

I admit I'm shooting in the dark here, but I don't think all the same people who would play a classic server would be the ones playing the mobile app. [...]

I specifically stated in my original post that it wouldn't likely draw the same players that would leave for a classic server, and made no absolutes/conceded that the "division" could very well be temporary.

Not sure why the prospects of the mobile version matter, some people will like it, others won't. Some will switch entirely to the mobile version, others won't.

[Alhanelem]

I specifically stated in my original post that it wouldn't likely draw the same players that would leave for a classic server, and made no absolutes/conceded that the "division" could very well be temporary.

Not sure why the prospects of the mobile version matter, some people will like it, others won't. Some will switch entirely to the mobile version, others won't.
The only significance is it's really the closest thing we're likely to see a classic server (even then, its probably more like a progression server than a classic server, based on what we've been told so far). It's really just a side topic.

[Teraniku]

The only reason it worked back @ level 75, was because there were at least 3000+ logged in during it's peak periods. Do you think that there are 3k+ people who'd really want to play on a classic server? and if there is, would they actually stay subscribed to the game for more than a month or 2, once the nostalgia is out of their system?

[Zarchery]

And.....?

He's not saying he didn't like the game. He liked the game in spite of what he saw as flaws looking back. And I agree they were flaws. There are so many enjoyable parts to the game, both back then and today, but the extreme grind and competing with 100+ people for the chance to fight a monster was really not the best part of the game to me. Even when I was doing it; the endless waiting around doing nothing didn't take long to outweigh the thrill of winning the pull (which was pure luck, pretty much)

Yes that's exactly right. I enjoyed it in the olden days because I had a lot of friends to play with and a lot of free time to play. Waiting a long time for a party didn't bother me because I had a lot of time to do it. Partying a long time to level up didn't bother me either because I was in no rush. I didn't bother with the land HNMs, and did some Sky and Limbus stuff with friends. Nowadays, I can't fathom spending all day to gain roughly 30,000 experience points. My friends are all gone due to real life commitments and getting bored with the classic game. Exactly one left during the classic era, then returned during Abyssea, then left again in mid 2012 due to real life stuff. Several left to play Final Fantasy 14. NONE left because of the way the game changed due to Adoulin and Abyssea. This is despite your odd inference that all or most did.

[Zarchery]

No, they would have to shut down the current servers and force everyone to play like it was 2006 all over again. Or at least, that's how everyone here is reacting. In reality though, yeah that's all they'd have to do.

Strawman. Nobody said this. The prevailing thought here is "we wouldn't like it and we doubt enough people would to make a functional game". Making a classic server now is like Nintendo re-releasing Nintendo 64 games or Sony developing for the Playstation 1. It'd just be a bad business decision that would cost them time and money on a product that too few people want for it to be anything but a money losing proposition.

You seem to be of the mind that there is some massive throng of thousands of people just waiting with bated breath for this classic server to emerge, because they all loved the game in 2006 and clearly the only reason they abandoned this game in mass numbers was because of Abyssea and Adoulin. Not because of other video games. Not because of other MMOs. Not because they got bored. Not because real life meant they couldn't make the time commitment any more. But just because the game changed.

[Zarchery]

I dont see it happening, but yeah if they would do it I'd probably make a character on there ...would have to have some QoL adjustments though (cant see myself playing anymore without all those cool warps) and lvl sync.

What I think would realistically happen, though, is that you, and maybe a bunch of other people, might make a character, be impressed by the novelty and nostalgia for maybe a month, then say "this sucks". Then the place would become a wasteland with so few people that even dedicated hardcore advocates like nekroturkey would abandon it because there aren't enough people to get anything done. Remember, you needed not only 18 people (or more for Dynamis) to get endgame stuff done; you needed 18 people willing to put up with hours of waiting around in exchange for virtually nothing. Good luck culling that from a base of a few hundred people spread out across different time zones and different languages.

[Zarchery]

This would be an amazing idea OP.

I'm surprised after how much trolling Alhanelem does in every single thread posted that he isn't banned.



Disagreeing with your personal opinion is not trolling.

Trolling is intentionally using inflammatory language and insincerely disagreeing with people to start a fight or trick people.

[Zarchery]

If demand wasn't there then these threads wouldn't exist. And neither would p****** s****** that have a cap of 75 and more people playing on them than some actual servers.

It would take several thousand people for a classic server to work. Less than a dozen people on a message board (I count, maybe 3 advocates) does not indicate demand.

[Shirai]

What strikes me as incredibly amusing in this whole argument is that there's actually no need to build any kind of legacy server.
All the ingredients to make an artificially capped enviroment are right here, with all of today's QoL improvements.

All you need is a group of reliable people that want to start a legacy group with you.

[Roja323]

Just go to any current server and make new characters and never do the level 75 limit break...Done. That costs SE nothing, is cheap/easy, and you can test the waters there. Just designate a server like 'hey bismark is the new legacy server', make a LS and try it out.

If you can get a full ls of people willing to do it, then dont expect SE to make a whole new server for it.

[Dekoda]

Easy, because Abyssea wouldn't be an option. It was a product made by Matsui and the new development team when they raised the level cap. "Classic" would encompass everything from Tanaka-era.

Abyssea came out in June 2010. Matsui wasn't Producer then, he wasn't even Director yet. Easily encompasses "Tanaka-era", since he didn't leave until 2012.

[PlumbGame]

Disagreeing with your personal opinion is not trolling.

Trolling is intentionally using inflammatory language and insincerely disagreeing with people to start a fight or trick people.

False, and considering that he has done the last part quite a bit is obvious. I also gave an example of one of his posts.

[PlumbGame]

What strikes me as incredibly amusing in this whole argument is that there's actually no need to build any kind of legacy server.
All the ingredients to make an artificially capped enviroment are right here, with all of today's QoL improvements.

All you need is a group of reliable people that want to start a legacy group with you.

This exists among all MMOs, yet people don't do it unless their has been a progression servers made. This has been discussed to death in the several threads that always come up for this,

Back on topic

If we were to compare the demand to not demand based off the people that view this forums, just look at earlier threads. There has always been a higher demand for these servers than not, if you were to base it off these forums. Which any intelligent person would know is not a majority view of the playerbase at all, let alone a view for the people who don't even play the game anymore.

https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?forums/time-locked-progression-servers.21/

Take a minute and go through that pages and pages of threads there of people who haven't even been to their forums for like 13 years who just discovered their TLP. If you think these forums is any indication of demand or not demand, you guys are sorely mistaken.

The only thing you can really base the success of your product off is the success of other companies doing similar stuff. You can't use WoW clones as an example of it failing, because it isn't similar, this is still an FFXI product. Doing a progression server has worked for any MMO I've ever seen do it. Maybe there is some out there it hasn't worked for, but I haven't seen it. Also like many users have pointed out, there is a high demand for it on places we aren't suppose to talk about, and if any of you have taken a statistics class, that is more than enough sample size to support the idea.

[Alhanelem]

What strikes me as incredibly amusing in this whole argument is that there's actually no need to build any kind of legacy server.
All the ingredients to make an artificially capped enviroment are right here, with all of today's QoL improvements.

All you need is a group of reliable people that want to start a legacy group with you.
Well, we're you're missing something that, admittedly, I've seen people asing for- being able to level sync to whatever level you want. It seems like that might not be a terrible compromise. While I've never really seen it as necessary and expressed such in threads about it, it could actually be a good step for nostalgia seekers.

[Shirai]

This exists among all MMOs, yet people don't do it unless their has been a progression servers made. This has been discussed to death in the several threads that always come up for this,

Have you even tried?

[Seillan]

Have you even tried?

I definitely don't have a dog in this fight (as I mentioned before) but I've never found the "create the experience yourself" argument to be very realistic. If this was any kind of game other than an mmorpg, maybe I could see a self-enforced ruleset like that being viable, but in a game like this, you end up isolating yourself to the rest of the community when you try to create artificial barriers. It's just not the same as having a server dedicated to that ruleset, where you have an mmo-sized group of others playing it with you. Unless you can somehow convince 100s to 1000s of others to restrict themselves along with you (and to keep doing so, despite constantly being tempted to join the rest of the server), you're going to be playing a very lonely game, and I doubt many want that in an mmorpg.

[detlef]

P****** s****** exist with the 75 cap and have more players than some actual servers. This shows that more than enough demand exists for a 75 cap server to exist. I'm not sure why you keep trying to ignore this anhelalhem but its the truth. Get over yourself.Is this really true? I thought even the most populated ones had less than 100 total players.

[Kagetachi]

The biggest problem with trying to force a server that doesn't have "new content" is that the game database is most likely a living database, it gets updated and they don't retain too many older versions. The same issue that Star Wars Galaxies faced. People wanted to play the version of the game before they broke everything but there was no way to restore it to that point. This is probably very likely true with FFXI as they continually changing the user local side dat file formats to try to prevent people from dat mining. I feel that there are aspects to FFXI at the level 75 cap that people enjoyed doing, and new MMOs have not take up yet.

At the point that Abyssea was released and the level caps increased, I think that FFXI was already at the point where it was starting to die off.

The level 75 cap was decided by Tanaka because of fear over convert being too powerful. If they had not placed that into effect a few months after NA release, I think the game would have developed more naturally over time with expansions. CoP lvl 80, ToAU lvl 85, WoTG 90. But we would have had a very different game experience as well.

What is the content you are after from "Classic FFXI"? Long grindy level parties? the end-game Group vs Group Raid Monster Hunts? Raiding Dynamis(large free roam raid instance)? Raiding Sky in an open world raid dungeon? I know that FFXI players never really called it Raiding but that is what it is.

Unfortunetly FFXIV has yet to implement these types of content. In Theory, they have GvG Raid Monster Hunts in the works. The other 2 I have no clue about.

[Alhanelem]

Is this really true? I thought even the most populated ones had less than 100 total players.
I've never heard of illicit servers having more players than the real ones have even now. And I'd bet money on a higher share of those players being multiboxed characters. Resorting to the underground is an involved process and it's not something just anyone will do, so there's a lot of barriers (even ignoring the legality barrier) to entry for a such server to even come close to matching the pop of real servers.



The level 75 cap was decided by Tanaka because of fear over convert being too powerful. If they had not placed that into effect a few months after NA release, I think the game would have developed more naturally over time with expansions. CoP lvl 80, ToAU lvl 85, WoTG 90. But we would have had a very different game experience as well. I've pointed this out in the past- The main problem with the level cap rise is it came after several years and multiple expansions never changing the cap. If this happened more gradually and nautrally with each expansion, it probably could have gone over smoother. But I don't believe that the new levels themselves directly harmed the game, rather it was a myriad set of issues coming together. Abyssea being the biggest one, and not refreshing most existing content in the process of raising the cap (at least, not until it was far too late)

[PlumbGame]

Come on guys, we all know people don't box or have mules on the real servers.

[bungiefanNA]

Most of the unofficial servers I've seen pages for have rules against multiboxing.

[Alhanelem]

Most of the unofficial servers I've seen pages for have rules against multiboxing.
I find that hard to believe, considering it's perfectly legitimate and allowed on the real game.

[bungiefanNA]

Those unofficial servers are usually running on a single computer, while the real servers run one world on multiple servers, with zones split between servers, as well as the AH being on a separate server. Official FFXI can handle 4000+ people being online on a server, but only about 700 people in a zone, like in Beseiged, because that zone runs on a different server to handle the load. Unofficial servers are usually running on a home computer, or a single server-grade computer, so they don't have the RAM and CPU resources to handle a huge population.

The operators don't want one person monopolizing CPU and RAM, and also, they have some old HNM-style spawns they don't want one person to be able to monopolize with multiple characters.

[Seillan]

I find that hard to believe, considering it's perfectly legitimate and allowed on the real game.

I don't really get your reasoning here. Because the official servers do something a certain way, the unofficial servers are automatically presumed to do the same thing? Heck, the whole basis of starting most private servers is due to a certain demographic wanting the game to be different than what is offered on official servers. It's not exactly a stretch of the imagination for a no-boxing policy to be a part that. Project1999 is known for their strict policy on the subject, despite official EQ servers sporting box armies the likes of which I haven't seen elsewhere.

[Alhanelem]

poster above you gave a reaosnable explanation.

[nekroturkey]

Do you think that there are 3k+ people who'd really want to play on a classic server? and if there is, would they actually stay subscribed to the game for more than a month or 2, once the nostalgia is out of their system?

Yes, I believe that there are enough people to support a classic server. Look at all of the people willing to spend their own money to re-create the classic experience (do you know how much server infrastructure costs?) and the legions of people that join them. Look at the success of classic servers in other games.

There's no reason to believe that it wouldn't be successful, honestly.

[PlumbGame]

Yes, I believe that there are enough people to support a classic server. Look at all of the people willing to spend their own money to re-create the classic experience (do you know how much server infrastructure costs?) and the legions of people that join them. Look at the success of classic servers in other games.

There's no reason to believe that it wouldn't be successful, honestly.

Basically this.

I wouldn't believe this would be a smart move for SE if the population sizes of servers was vastly larger than it is is, but given not only that most the servers pops are significantly smaller than what I feel a classic server could hit, SE announced the game basically being done after November except minor patches that basically consist of QoL changes. I find no better opportunity than now to hopefully keep the game we all hold and love running. Maybe it's success would even open more opportunities for the current servers to thrive.

Is there a chance this doesn't succeed? Without a doubt there is a chance, but again, basing what we know off of other games that have done similar things, those servers have ALWAYS been successful, well what determines success, I don't know, but I do know this, they have been more successful than their counterparts that aren't classic servers.

[Alhanelem]

Yes, I believe that there are enough people to support a classic server. Look at all of the people willing to spend their own money to re-create the classic experience (do you know how much server infrastructure costs?) and the legions of people that join them. Look at the success of classic servers in other games.

There's no reason to believe that it wouldn't be successful, honestly.
Without actual statistics, i'm inclined to believe you're strongly overstating (legions? I don't think so) the popularity of these illicit servers. You're using weasel words (e.g. vague words that can mean whatever you want them to) to make the situation look better than it is.

The number of people playing the current game far exceeds those playing on illegal servers, and I've seen no evidence to the contrary. And unless you still need a legitimate account with a paid subscription to get on to these servers, I'd wager people are more likely to doing it to avoid paying sub fees rather than because they can get a 'classic' experience.

for the 40th time, other games making classic servers is not a guarantee that it would be beneficial to this game. "Not a guarantee" does not mean "definitely won't" or "definitely will." Only that the chance is not 100% as you're asserting. From my perspective "It worked for them so itt'l work for us" is not a compelling argument. You can't predict the future with perfect accuracy. Your data supports a possibility, but it guarantees nothing.

Prior to FFXIV, there were no online games that successfully reinvented themseleves without going free to play / freemium. SE proved them wrong and did it anyway. There were at least as many examples of games needing f2p to save themselves (DDO, rift, tera) as you have examples of games making classic servers, but then a game came along that didn't need to do it. Therefore, to me three examples (the number in your original post) of classic and/or progression servers is not enough to prove the concept is assured to benefit FFXI.

(Also, since your first post i've not seen you mention any other sources of data. Three sources isn't even enough for the typical essay or paper I would have written in colllege or high school)

[detlef]

Has anybody actually played on a private server? I'm wondering what kind of populations there really are and if people can actually devote enough play time to allow for at least a semi-robust group experience. I'm picturing a server with a hundred people who play maybe 15 hours a week and are never online at the same time or wanting to do the same thing at the same time. Am I completely off base or is this accurate?

[Alhanelem]

Has anybody actually played on a private server? I'm wondering what kind of populations there really are and if people can actually devote enough play time to allow for at least a semi-robust group experience. I'm picturing a server with a hundred people who play maybe 15 hours a week and are never online at the same time or wanting to do the same thing at the same time. Am I completely off base or is this accurate?
Your perception is the same is mine- I find it hard to believe any of these have a population sufficent enough to play when you want and be able to find someone who wants to do what you want to do. In all probability these servers are most on individual machines and not server clusters in a data center and can not support that many connections.

[machini]

Has anybody actually played on a private server? I'm wondering what kind of populations there really are and if people can actually devote enough play time to allow for at least a semi-robust group experience. I'm picturing a server with a hundred people who play maybe 15 hours a week and are never online at the same time or wanting to do the same thing at the same time. Am I completely off base or is this accurate?

There are no playable ones. There are some that let you do things like log in, run around, equip items, but none of them actually function -- JAs don't work, monsters don't have AI, etc, etc.

FFXI had nowhere near EverQuest's popularity at either games' primes. The EQ Emulator project has been going almost since the game came out, and one of the EQ Private Servers (the "classic" server) is now becoming an officially sanctioned thing.

I think a huge problem is that people don't understand what a "classic" server is. A "classic" server would be using POL and FFXI from the time period in question. It would be using loottables, spawn tables, mob AI, spell effects, WSes, etc, etc, etc, from the time in question. That data no longer exists.

Many companies that make MMOs have huge issues (as do most other game companies, oddly enough) with keeping backups and older versions archived somewhere. Since the idea of "classic" servers didn't exist back when EQ, or FFXI, came out, that data was not saved. The only way to get older versions of the EQ Client (not even talking about legitimately, talking about at all) is via boxed copies of the game. Somewhere I have a copy of EQ Trilogy, which is a copy of the game client with the base game and the first two expansion. So great! I have the classic version of the game, client and all, back when you had a tiny little window and we were still using the Quake engine. Awesome. Now what?

Nothing, that's what.

The server binaries, the databases of game information, probably even the source code for the servers of that time, don't exist anymore. And the amount of time it would take to recreate that when a good deal of the internal mechanics were not recorded, or the records of how they function were deleted, would be insane.

I don't know that half the people in this thread who are clamoring for a "classic" server have any idea what sort of work is involved in such a thing. Right now Squeenix is saying they're discontinuing development because the money isn't there to support it. Do you really think a classic server would bring in the dosh to support the amount of time that would go in to outright recreating the server and client software of the time? Do you have any idea how much time it would take to recreate databases of loot and mobs of the time? No, you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be asserting this is a doable thing.

And that's not what you want, anyway. One month of 75-cap where it takes a year to level a job, and hours to find a party, with no RUN or GEO, without half of the JAs and spells you've become accustomed to, where people will take rotating shifts holding land kings, where there is no fast travel, no mog sack, no porter moogle, no satchel, etc, etc, etc, after one month of that you'd unsubscribe while wailing that that's not what you wanted or asked for.

I played EQ starting the day it came out and quit with Luclin. I fully understand the "desire" for a classic server. Those were some of the most fun times I've had in a video game -- almost all entirely due to the community -- but I would not want to return to them. I can take off the rose tinted glasses and accept that 4 hour corpse runs, being unable to get a party as a hybrid class, some classes being absolutely worthless to the point no one wants to party with them or play them, no proper raid mechanics, etc, etc, were really unfun, and that the only thing that made them tolerable were the community. Someone helping you with a corpse run, whether it was a free teleport (and SoW, maybe), or helping you physically locate your corpse, or helping you by dragging it or clearing mobs: that made it tolerable. Sitting around and shooting the breeze for four hours at a single camp killing the same 3 monsters over and over again: that made it tolerable. That sense of newness in every zone you visited, every level you gained, spell you learned, piece of gear you wrested from the cold, dead hands of its previous mob owner: that was tolerable; doing it with a great community, with friends, is what made it fun.

You're not going to have that community. I am not going to ditch literal years of work to go back to 75 cap, especially if we don't have ToAU and Wings. I am not going to go back to 75 cap if I can't get 75 cap versions of my mythic back. I'm not going to go back for a lot of reasons, and other than the listed above, they all sum up as "I'm not going to throw away years of work and start over from scratch."

I really, really sympathize with you. I really, truly do. But sometimes what we want is not what we need, nor is what we get what we wanted. It is impossible, for practical reasons, and monetary reasons, for you to get your wish. If you truly want that, go learn C++ and lua and contribute to a project that will give you what you want. SE is not going to do it for you.

[nekroturkey]

I am not going to ditch literal years of work to go back to 75 cap, especially if we don't have ToAU and Wings. I am not going to go back to 75 cap if I can't get 75 cap versions of my mythic back. I'm not going to go back for a lot of reasons, and other than the listed above, they all sum up as "I'm not going to throw away years of work and start over from scratch."

Okay... then don't? Are you under the assumption that we're asking for all of the servers to be rolled back? Because that's the impression you're giving. In fact, most of the anti-classic server people here are giving me that impression.

If you enjoy the way the game currently plays, then keep playing on the main servers. Let the people who want a classic server play on the classic server. Everybody's happy. It's really that simple, or would the simple existence of a classic server bother you?

Historically speaking though, and as I've mentioned before, the game had more people playing during this game's golden era than it does now. A classic server has a lot of potential.

[Alhanelem]

FFXI had nowhere near EverQuest's popularity at either games' primes. The EQ Emulator project has been going almost since the game came out, and one of the EQ Private Servers (the "classic" server) is now becoming an officially sanctioned thing.So the "classic server" as mentioned in the original thread for EQ wasn't actually created by the game's developers?
```


If you enjoy the way the game currently plays, then keep playing on the main servers. Let the people who want a classic server play on the classic server. Everybody's happy. It's really that simple, or would the simple existence of a classic server bother you? It's really not that simple. If the classic server is succesful, it will hurt the community of the main game, e.g. it will get harder to group (Becuase it already is). The classic servers is more likely to simply take a portion of the current playerbase away than it is to attract new players or bring old ones back.

If it fails, on the other hand, it will be seen as wasted resources. It would be very challenging to hit just the right spot where both can exist and both can be enjoyable. FFXI is smaller than the other games you've mentioned and it's already in a position where it can be challenging at times to form groups. Splitting the community would only make that even harder, no matter which side you're on. IMO FFXI is not big enough to support a variety of server types. Because of that I'd be sounding off against any such concepts- Not just classic servers, but other types like RP or PvP (even though I like PvP) or <insert server ruleset here>.

If FFXI was as big as WoW, I'd be a lot more reseptive to special servers with unique rulesets. But FFXI's population is really not able to support that.

[Prrsha]

Saying that they have no backup of old data is a lie. How do you explain the private servers that have 300 population that only support content up to CoP? These servers have more players on them I am told then the current average paid server, so the desire is there. The only advertisement they have is word of mouth. While I have never tried a retro private server (or any private server as they are a form of piracy) so many of my old LS friends have.

Some private servers have full content some have retro and from the numbers... the retro servers have more players hands down. I browsed their forums to confirm the data and spoke to many of my friends who fiddle around on both kinds of servers.

Also 3 of my 100+ facebook friendlist still play FFXI paid. About 50 quit solid. 12 of them are in FFXIV. The rest? You guessed it... all but 6 of them play on a retro private server. The 6 in question play on a full content private server.

We all know FFXI lost the largest number of players once the level cap from CoP was removed and the lvl 75 cap. Sure you had a flood of new people resubbing to see what it is like to be level 99... but in the end, it no longer held their interest. Why? A post I made on ZAM sums it up:

"Most, if not all of Mithra Pride and Emerald Arcanum on Phoenix left once the level cap was raised and level caps were removed from CoP. Only 3 members still play FFXI on the retail server. The rest have either tried 14 and stayed there for a small time or have moved to a 11 private server.

The community is the core of a MMO and what makes it special. When a game tends to shift to more of a single player solo mind set, the community suffers a bit I have found. I am no stranger to MMOs and gave been GMs in 2 of them (Allegiance and Jumpgate). Jumpgate is a good example of this scenario. The game became more single player friendly, so players didn't need each other to accomplish many goals they had to before. While many rejoiced for a time, people started leaving the more they felt less needed. We as staff had to reverse that trend and went back to the core principles of the game. We brainstormed for months giving feedback to the developers and after a while came to a consensus on what needed to be done. After several patches that undid many of the changes that were done (and a massive nerf as well), yes, many players left, but lo and behold after 6 months we had an upturn of 300% subscription rate (mostly from vets) and the game was saved from bankruptcy. It gave the game another 2 strong years before the company pulled the plug however to make a sequel and work on another MMO game (which flopped).

Mithra Pride and Emerald Arcanum were always mid level linkshells that took in new players as soon as they hopped into vanadiel. The loyalty to the LS was strong and many of us still talk via facebook. The joy in running a LS like that was to be a mentor to others and see them grow into vets who where very close friends. 3 members of my shell met in real life and married (including myself). The general consensus among them is that FFXI is now just an empty shell... however they have not abandoned it in their hearts even though they have quit. They wish to relive the game how it was when such ties were made, so many choose a private server to do so. One of the married couples are a member of a retro private server as I speak.

This phenomenon repeats itself over and over again it seems with veterans I know. For some reason FFXI doesn't seem like home anymore, nor do they feel 14 is a home as well. However they seem drawn to the retro private servers like a moth to a flame. They even rather remake a new character.

BTW the game allegiance is still alive despite its small initial run by Microsoft (about 2 years if memory serves me and was developed in 2000-2001) It is now run by a dedicated community (private server) and has evolved with every patch and kept up with graphics changes throughout the years. http://www.freeallegiance.org/

Maybe SE could learn something from this, but it is probably too late... "

Also this:

"I really think FFXI is going through an identity crisis. It's no longer holding up to its core model and is trying to evolve into something it was never envisioned to be in the first place... and can you blame it? Just about 100% of the creative staff that worked on the original game is gone from the company now.

I think they would have been better off if they have stuck with their "Everquest" model of the game instead of proclaiming they are trying to re-design it along the "WoW" model. If they wanted a "WoW" model, they could have (and have) used FFXIV.

When you redesign a game and start changing its core to meet with the current trends, you lose your nitche playerbase. What you have left now, is a game that is half EQ and half WoW. The parts don't fit well together, leaving a confused mess of outdated content that is no longer relevant because the core has shifted so much that only the new content is relevant anymore.

What do new players see when entering FFXI? They see a game that looks broken by zooming them to level 99 because the older content just doesn't fit anymore. The removal of level caps in storyline areas and no need for low level synthed gear leads to a rewardless crafting system and empty auction houses (and a broken non-existent) game economy."

[Alhanelem]

Saying that they have no backup of old data is a lie. How do you explain the private servers that have 300 population that only support content up to CoP?Those servers don't even support that content. They are not really functional, please don't overstate how well they are. They're also purely English and that "300population" you're claiming is not going to be around the clock.

It's not a lie. The only private servers i've heard of were created back when those expansions were new and were not updated. If they vanished off the face of the earth and someone else created a private server, they would only have the current version of the client to work with and they'd only have access to the current servers to reverse engineer them. You can easily limit what content is available, but you can't turn back the clock on the core client code. It's still going to be the newest version whether you reverse engineer Zilart or everything up to now.

Unless you've been to SE HQ and have access to their repository, you can't tell me with a straight face that you know they keep every old version of the game data. If you went and told me someone at SE has a USB drive of FFXI 1.0 from 13 years ago both client and server in their back pocket, I'd say you're most likely wrong. It would take a team of engineers and it would take time to literally turn back the clock to X time in the past. And why do I say this? The game software has, most likely, undergone at least thousands and probably tens of thousands of builds. The amount of storage necessary to keep all those builds for 13+ years is incredibly huge; and while storage is cheaper than ever, the game was started 13 years ago and it's extremely unlikely they planned for this. At most, they probably keep 2-3 years worth of builds, because they might need them to revert a code change that caused a bug or similar.

[nekroturkey]

What do new players see when entering FFXI? They see a game that looks broken by zooming them to level 99 because the older content just doesn't fit anymore.

This was the exact impression I got when I returned to the game a few months ago. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the convenience and a lot of the QoL changes that have been made, but the game feels terribly disjointed, like a lot of the newer aspects just don't belong. There's a lot of redundant/irrelevant/abandoned content in the game now, and you can tell the game wasn't originally meant to be played this way because it feels so awkward and unpolished.

[Alhanelem]

What do new players see when entering FFXI? They see a game that looks broken by zooming them to level 99 because the older content just doesn't fit anymore.The thing is, nobody wants to do the older content. It would be extremely difficult to get people to do that. People are motivated by reward, and old content doesn't offer them useful rewards. This is another thing that makes me question the viability of a classic server, because this problem would be back in full force and be off putting to new characters (not necessarily just new players). So what was SE supposed to do? They can either make old content easier to pass for new players, or they can lose those new players due to lack of people willing to help.

It's a problem even in a relatively young game like FFXIV, which could only really solve the problem by offering a "random duty" function, which automatically pairs people with others who need a particular thing done- But even with that feature, you have to wait a long time to find a group for early game dungeons and bosses, because few people are interested.

[Prrsha]

Also your argument that a classic server will "drain" players from regular servers is flawed. The people who LEFT FFXI due to the changes would fill the classic servers mostly. Take all of those players from 3 retro servers and you have 300 + 100 + 100 = 500 subs. That's just from unadvertised private "secret" servers. Imagine if SE sent every vet that left an email announcing the addition of a classic server? You'd get tons of players imho.

As to your argument that there are no private servers that have CoP content? That is also false. Many have content up to ToAU. You can fight there, visit all zones etc. Crafting works fine, the economy is good and guess what? When you make a character you start with a global LS that everyone talks in. THAT is how they organize things like NM hunts and such. The only thing that seems to be broken atm according to the forums is fishing... but they are working on that. At the moment they have a work around that you can catch any fish but never skill up.

[Prrsha]

Unless you've been to SE HQ and have access to their repository, you can't tell me with a straight face that you know they keep every old version of the game data. If you went and told me someone at SE has a USB drive of FFXI 1.0 from 13 years ago both client and server in their back pocket, I'd say you're most likely wrong. It would take a team of engineers and it would take time to literally turn back the clock to X time in the past. And why do I say this? The game software has, most likely, undergone at least thousands and probably tens of thousands of builds. The amount of storage necessary to keep all those builds for 13+ years is incredibly huge; and while storage is cheaper than ever, the game was started 13 years ago and it's extremely unlikely they planned for this. At most, they probably keep 2-3 years worth of builds, because they might need them to revert a code change that caused a bug or similar.

Explain how the private servers exist then in a retro state... even with no FoV or GoV books? Eh?

Also the most popular retro server has 100 members ONLINE. Those are not subs... subs are higher. I was low balling it at 300.

You seem to know nothing about them or have never spoken to a person who has been on one of late. I'd invite you to my facebook ring but you'd just troll.

I have never used a private server but once SE tosses FFXI down the gutter and shuts down theirs... I may just join one to have fun with my old friends. Call me old fashioned but I still abide by the ToS and never have even used a Windower back in the day lol, so joining one atm seems wrong. I wish SE gave me the option of such a server however. If they did, I'd probably stay around after they stopped content.

After the phone OS goes live, I plan to quit FFXI and not return until a classic or private servers are legal. Prrsha RIP 2004-2012. I must have given SE about $1,000 dollars over the years between my wife and I.

[detlef]

Historically speaking though, and as I've mentioned before, the game had more people playing during this game's golden era than it does now. A classic server has a lot of potential.Uh, I have to point out that just because the population was higher back then doesn't mean the game was better.

At the time there were very few MMO options and this meant that FFXI's unforgiving gameplay was tolerated because there weren't many other MMO games that people could switch to. Also, I'd wager that FFXI represented the first MMO experience for I would guess the majority of its players. People put up with the hours of PT seeking, months of leveling, and hilariously punishing endgame because that's what MMOs were and that's all people knew. If you transplanted the 2004-2005 playerbase into 2015 and gave them the option of playing 2004-2005 FFXI or any other MMO, you'd be hard pressed to keep them playing FFXI.

Also, a lot of people who started back then were in high school or college and could afford to devote enough time to the game to make it worthwhile. Those same people are 10 years older now and have vastly different lifestyles. Sure in college you could play 80 hours a week and have a very fulfilling experience. You had 12 hours to play, seeking PT for 2 hours was nothing. Doing Dynamis for 3.5 hours was acceptable. Leveling a job to 75 at 4k XP per hour was manageable. Are you really the same person now? Is that something you still want from the game?

In my opinion, what people want is to be 20 years old playing 80 hours a week with other 20-year olds.

[Isal]

Uh, I have to point out that just because the population was higher back then doesn't mean the game was better. [...]

As logical as your post is, that exact sentiment has been pointed out multiple times in this very thread, and I can assure you that nekroturkey is not going to let go of his questionable "there were more playing back then" correlation.

Frankly, if the "demand" is truly there, then the people demanding it should do something about it. Start a petition or something. The people disagreeing with the OP of this thread are in no way holding back the possiblity of SE making one. You gotta make it happen, and this thread isn't going to cut it.

[Zarchery]

Historically speaking though, and as I've mentioned before, the game had more people playing during this game's golden era than it does now. A classic server has a lot of potential.

Pong consoles and NES games had a ton of people playing them in the 70s and 80s. That doesn't mean either would be popular today.

[detlef]

Pong consoles and NES games had a ton of people playing them in the 70s and 80s. That doesn't mean either would be popular today.I played Pong for the first time the other day. I had real, genuine fun with it for a few minutes.

[PlumbGame]

Pong consoles and NES games had a ton of people playing them in the 70s and 80s. That doesn't mean either would be popular today.

Terrible analogy.

So much misinformation in this thread it's mind boggling.

[Alhanelem]

Also your argument that a classic server will "drain" players from regular servers is flawed.So you're saying that there are zero current players that would be interested in this? Like... the people posting in this thread right now? My argument is not flawed because there are indeed at least a few people who would leave for a classic server. I sure at least hope the OP is one of them since he's leading the push for it at the moment...

SE is never going to make a classic server. They're not even able to continue updates for the main game, there's no way they will expend any resources on that. This discussion is entirely hypothetical. And private servers will never be "legal" because of copyright.
I'm not sure what you mean by "when the phone OS goes live"... SE isn't making a phone OS. They're contracting with Nexon to produce a mobile remake of the game, which, by the way, is probably the closest thing you will get to a classic server.

There's really nothing wrong with you leaving though. You make it sound like a threat, but SE most likely entirely expects this to happen. Heck, when they first made the game, they didn't think it would run for half as long as it did. I will probably leave at that time as well, but it will be on good terms and satisfied that I had a great run.


Uh, I have to point out that just because the population was higher back then doesn't mean the game was better.I've said that numerous times in this thread, but he just doesn't seem to understand that people leave the game for a lot of reasons. A perception that the quality of the game has decreased is just one of them.

[PlumbGame]

More likes for OP than anyone else in this thread. If the forums was a base line, there would be a majority view for it.

Alha brings up statistics and doesnt even know how they work, because if you were to use the people who play on the private servers in a statistical view, it would represent a majority population that would play on the classic server. Also, many things on the private servers work fine, I played on them 2 years ago roughly, when a lot was broken, and much more was working then than one of the people who recently posted said.

Every game that has ever done something similar has had more success with it than its normal servers.

Keep being in denial all you want, but these are facts.

Also, more people enjoyed the game in the 75 era than not, that is an absolute fact. None of you have any data to support anything you say like its some kind of normal for games to decline whether people enjoy them or not (personally, I don't stop playing games I supposedly enjoy, unless its stuff like I feel the game went downhill). The only data we do have is that the population in fact was larger during those eras, and don't act like you have never heard people say they miss the 75 days or wish it was still that era. I'm in a freaking kongregate chat room right now when people who bring it up all the time, and I have no idea who these people even are.

If we also use the above info, every game that releases said servers, have not only shown a success more than their current servers, but have hit population sizes vastly larger than any of those servers hit during those eras.

Let us not discredit the validity and possibility of the success of one of these servers because you guys are haywire on arguing about the lively hood of the current game that the developers have already implied is done after November.

Also note that just because more people enjoyed that era, doesn't mean it will automatically be successful, but for the love, people stop stating excuses for that era, because its a fact, and the numbers don't lie. Just like most the people in WoW enjoyed WotLK etc... There is certain eras in ALL MMORPGS that more people enjoyed, deal with it.

[detlef]

I just want to address a couple of points here.


More likes for OP than anyone else in this thread. If the forums was a base line, there would be a majority view for it.Is 6 Likes really enough to allow us to draw any sort of conclusion?


Also, more people enjoyed the game in the 75 era than not, that is an absolute fact. None of you have any data to support anything you say like its some kind of normal for games to decline whether people enjoy them or not (personally, I don't stop playing games I supposedly enjoy, unless its stuff like I feel the game went downhill). The only data we do have is that the population in fact was larger during those eras, and don't act like you have never heard people say they miss the 75 days or wish it was still that era. I'm in a freaking kongregate chat room right now when people who bring it up all the time, and I have no idea who these people even are.I'm not sure how you can say more people enjoyed the 75 era than not, what does that mean? Or did you mean more players enjoyed that era than now?

Either way, I don't think you can state that as a fact. Sure, the game population was higher back then, I think we can agree on that. But the playerbase was very different back then as was the gaming environment. I suppose you can submit your guess that what worked then would work now. But everything is so vastly different now that it's really no more than a guess and certainly not absolute as you went on to state later.

I think such a server would require much more effort to construct than we think and would not be able to sustain any sort of player base or any kind of stable economy. I think the same problems that plagued the game in those days would persist and be exacerbated by a low population. Of course, that's just opinion but it's based on real experience and things that really happened to a lot of people.

[PlumbGame]

I just want to address a couple of points here.

Is 6 Likes really enough to allow us to draw any sort of conclusion?

I'm not sure how you can say more people enjoyed the 75 era than not, what does that mean? Or did you mean more players enjoyed that era than now?

Either way, I don't think you can state that as a fact. Sure, the game population was higher back then, I think we can agree on that. But the playerbase was very different back then as was the gaming environment. I suppose you can submit your guess that what worked then would work now. But everything is so vastly different now that it's really no more than a guess and certainly not absolute as you went on to state later.

I think such a server would require much more effort to construct than we think and would not be able to sustain any sort of player base or any kind of stable economy. I think the same problems that plagued the game in those days would persist and be exacerbated by a low population. Of course, that's just opinion but it's based on real experience and things that really happened to a lot of people.

The point of the first comment was that people claim that there is no demand for it, and they try using fallacys to determine that it would be a waste of time with no way to support their opinion. The demand is obviously there we can conclude by A. The thread existing in the first place and B. The fact that more people who view this forums, at least this thread, agree with the OP than not.

The second point is a fact. How can you argue otherwise. If people enjoyed the game still, they would be playing here. How do we think WoW went from 6.1mil subs to 10mil+ at their expansion launch? It's not like the game has been forgotten and ffxi is just a spec of dust in the wind. There has been plenty of opportunity to bring back a considerable amount of audience since the decline of the game, but it hasn't worked. There is a many MANY different aspects of the game not appealing to many people who played in the 75 days.

I've glimpsed a lot of replies here, so I don't know if anyone stated is specifically, but I don't think anyone is saying that server wouldn't require effort. That's one reason earlier I pointed out that it's obviously if SE does so, that being said, if they do choose to do so, I feel absolutely positively that it would be more successful than the current servers. This is ignoring maybe the appeal to the JP side also. SE also being the king of remakes on their games, I hope this would follow. Maybe though their mobile version is suppose to be their "classic" remake.

[machini]

So the "classic server" as mentioned in the original thread for EQ wasn't actually created by the game's developers?

That is correct. The EQ Emulator project is a private, open source project that emulates an EverQuest server. Sony Online tried to shut it down a couple of times, until they finally had to accept the fact that it is not illegal in the United States to reverse engineer a piece of software. You can only copyright source code, binaries from the code, and game assets (art, music). The EQ Emulator, being open source, plainly does not incorporate any proprietary source code, and it uses none of the game assets. All you need is a copy of a version of EverQuest that the server is compatible with. That's where the issue comes in -- the only way to obtain such a thing, last time i checked, was via a physical copy of the EverQuest Titanium boxed set. The server does not incorporate, use, or redistribute any actual anything from the client, and contains no actual official source code. It just took years for that to get established.

And yes, the Project 1999 server is a fork of the main EQ Emulator branch, which does not share its source code alterations or its database that it uses to emulate a "classic" server. The reason, of course, is if they did, I'd set up my own and six box (they refuse to allow boxing on their server, and I have no interest in soloing as Druid or Necromancer). It was entirely unaffiliated with EverQuest, Sony Online Entertainment, or any other representative or agents responsible or in charge of EverQuest. They now have official recognition, though.

[Alhanelem]

I just want to address a couple of points here.

Is 6 Likes really enough to allow us to draw any sort of conclusion?

I'm not sure how you can say more people enjoyed the 75 era than not, what does that mean? Or did you mean more players enjoyed that era than now?

Either way, I don't think you can state that as a fact. Sure, the game population was higher back then, I think we can agree on that. But the playerbase was very different back then as was the gaming environment. I suppose you can submit your guess that what worked then would work now. But everything is so vastly different now that it's really no more than a guess and certainly not absolute as you went on to state later.

I think such a server would require much more effort to construct than we think and would not be able to sustain any sort of player base or any kind of stable economy. I think the same problems that plagued the game in those days would persist and be exacerbated by a low population. Of course, that's just opinion but it's based on real experience and things that really happened to a lot of people.

This is just another case of people drawing false conclusions / interpreting data incorrectly. 6 likes on a forum, therefore everyone must like it. Less people online now, therefore the game was higher quality back then. if 3 other studios can do a classic server (at least one of which was not actually made by the studio), then it will work for SE too. Too much conclusion drawing with not enough data.

[machini]

Explain how the private servers exist then in a retro state... even with no FoV or GoV books? Eh?

Also the most popular retro server has 100 members ONLINE. Those are not subs... subs are higher. I was low balling it at 300.

You seem to know nothing about them or have never spoken to a person who has been on one of late. I'd invite you to my facebook ring but you'd just troll.

I have never used a private server but once SE tosses FFXI down the gutter and shuts down theirs... I may just join one to have fun with my old friends. Call me old fashioned but I still abide by the ToS and never have even used a Windower back in the day lol, so joining one atm seems wrong. I wish SE gave me the option of such a server however. If they did, I'd probably stay around after they stopped content.

After the phone OS goes live, I plan to quit FFXI and not return until a classic or private servers are legal. Prrsha RIP 2004-2012. I must have given SE about $1,000 dollars over the years between my wife and I.

You need to stop. You obviously have no first-hand experience with the private servers you're talking about. They are incomplete, do not have proper loot or spawn tables, half the JAs do absolutely nothing, and a great deal of other stuff is wrong with them. They are not anything approaching playable. They also do not incorporate any of the live server source code.

[Hellkat]

Is 6 Likes really enough to allow us to draw any sort of conclusion?

Make that 7 likes.

I just returned to the free trial of FFXI. I have been playing for around 6 years and quit shortly after all of the abyssea non-sense. I'm returning to see what changes were made to the game. I wanted to see if they fixed the mess they had done. I am saddened to see that this was not the case. After my trial is over I will mostly probably join a private server with level 75s then deal with the game in the mess it is in now. Most of my friends have that I have made have done the same. My better half says I should stay here because it is piracy to go to a private server.

Let me tell you, what SE did to FFXI is piracy in a monetary sense. All these years they took my money, only to trash the game now with silver spoon giveaways to any challenge the game had. I miss my old Vanadiel. Since SE gives me no other option to stay with a classic server, I will be leaving after the trial end. Most of my friends came during the trial too to play. They didn't like it now as well and said they would be leaving too. I have seen this thread and have been speaking with my LS mates. They all want to go to the private server until things get better as well. As strange as it might be to you, we all share the same mindset.

I loved FFXI but this game is not the same game it was to me now. It has changed too much and in the wrong ways.

[detlef]

The point of the first comment was that people claim that there is no demand for it, and they try using fallacys to determine that it would be a waste of time with no way to support their opinion. The demand is obviously there we can conclude by A. The thread existing in the first place and B. The fact that more people who view this forums, at least this thread, agree with the OP than not.I tend to think that Likes are a bit biased in that people will only bother to click it if it’s something they feel very strongly about or it’s a very well-written post. Since there’s no Dislike button, you can’t really draw any conclusion other than 6 people agreed enough to click Like.


The second point is a fact. How can you argue otherwise. If people enjoyed the game still, they would be playing here. How do we think WoW went from 6.1mil subs to 10mil+ at their expansion launch? It's not like the game has been forgotten and ffxi is just a spec of dust in the wind. There has been plenty of opportunity to bring back a considerable amount of audience since the decline of the game, but it hasn't worked. There is a many MANY different aspects of the game not appealing to many people who played in the 75 days.There are myriad reasons why people who played then are not playing now. Maybe more time is required to focus on work or studies. Maybe they started a relationship or a family. Maybe the cost of the game became an issue. Maybe they found a pastime they enjoyed even more than FFXI. Maybe they identified the game as an addition and quit. And maybe, as you have indicated, they quite because the game wasn’t proceeding in the direction they wanted. The game is very different now.

But then, so are the people playing the game. The player base was very much comprised of 18-25 year old players 10 years ago. Too many people are looking at just the game then and now and not looking at the players who played the game then and now. That’s why I say that if you brought back 2005-2008 FFXI to 2015, there is a good chance that it would just fall flat on its face.


I've glimpsed a lot of replies here, so I don't know if anyone stated is specifically, but I don't think anyone is saying that server wouldn't require effort. That's one reason earlier I pointed out that it's obviously if SE does so, that being said, if they do choose to do so, I feel absolutely positively that it would be more successful than the current servers. This is ignoring maybe the appeal to the JP side also. SE also being the king of remakes on their games, I hope this would follow. Maybe though their mobile version is suppose to be their "classic" remake.Well let’s just say that some people think that the process would be very easy to do. I think we both understand that it wouldn’t be a trivial thing for SE to do.

[detlef]

Make that 7 likes.

I just returned to the free trial of FFXI. I have been playing for around 6 years and quit shortly after all of the abyssea non-sense. I'm returning to see what changes were made to the game. I wanted to see if they fixed the mess they had done. I am saddened to see that this was not the case. After my trial is over I will mostly probably join a private server with level 75s then deal with the game in the mess it is in now. Most of my friends have that I have made have done the same. My better half says I should stay here because it is piracy to go to a private server.

Let me tell you, what SE did to FFXI is piracy in a monetary sense. All these years they took my money, only to trash the game now with silver spoon giveaways to any challenge the game had. I miss my old Vanadiel. Since SE gives me no other option to stay with a classic server, I will be leaving after the trial end. Most of my friends came during the trial too to play. They didn't like it now as well and said they would be leaving too. I have seen this thread and have been speaking with my LS mates. They all want to go to the private server until things get better as well. As strange as it might be to you, we all share the same mindset.

I loved FFXI but this game is not the same game it was to me now. It has changed too much and in the wrong ways.Hey, valid opinion. Sorry the game isn't what you wanted it to be. I hope you and your friends find what you are looking for and have a solid play experience wherever you end up.

[PlumbGame]

This is just another case of people drawing false conclusions / interpreting data incorrectly. 6 likes on a forum, therefore everyone must like it. Less people online now, therefore the game was higher quality back then. if 3 other studios can do a classic server (at least one of which was not actually made by the studio), then it will work for SE too. Too much conclusion drawing with not enough data.


We have provided so much data. Thanks for providing yours.

[PlumbGame]

I tend to think that Likes are a bit biased in that people will only bother to click it if it’s something they feel very strongly about or it’s a very well-written post. Since there’s no Dislike button, you can’t really draw any conclusion other than 6 people agreed enough to click Like.

There are myriad reasons why people who played then are not playing now. Maybe more time is required to focus on work or studies. Maybe they started a relationship or a family. Maybe the cost of the game became an issue. Maybe they found a pastime they enjoyed even more than FFXI. Maybe they identified the game as an addition and quit. And maybe, as you have indicated, they quite because the game wasn’t proceeding in the direction they wanted. The game is very different now.

But then, so are the people playing the game. The player base was very much comprised of 18-25 year old players 10 years ago. Too many people are looking at just the game then and now and not looking at the players who played the game then and now. That’s why I say that if you brought back 2005-2008 FFXI to 2015, there is a good chance that it would just fall flat on its face.

Well let’s just say that some people think that the process would be very easy to do. I think we both understand that it wouldn’t be a trivial thing for SE to do.

I can see what you are saying, but then use other games as an example. Not only have I ran into teenagers still play everquest, but what about all the 30+ 40+ year olds making up an at least 5k+ (this is being generous) population that just capped out their server on the TLP that launched?

You are trying to present "this is 2015, no one has time for this" type comment, but it is completely false, even more so with studies being shown all the time with the increasing popularity of gaming and stuff like LoL hitting 3/4 (iirc) the size of the superbowl in terms of people watching. People have all the time in the world to sit around and play, and hence if you need to look at the examples already given.

I won't say it isn't trivial, but it isn't as hard as you guys state, given the professionalism that you would assume a company like SE would have, they mostly would have to make older clients compatible with newer operating systems, and considering that they already have the system in place for current FFXI, they could use much of that in the appropriate areas. Obviously they don't just think it and it be done, but I think its more trivial than some of you think. A lot of you act like its requesting SE to send 3k people on a rocket to mars.

If you are talking about them rebuilding the game from the ground up, thats another story, but look how fast they churned out FFXIV 2.0, but apparently the capabilities aren't there for them to give a classic server? Come on, lets get real, and to assume they don't have old versions of the game? You can almost see every patch from the beginning on playonline (maybe the beginning, idk). I've never known people to just throw out stuff of importance, especially in this field.

This has been brought up several times in this thread and the multiple threads that all you guys arguing in have also responded. I know because I've given the same responses to all of you in almost every single one. You guys still haven't given any new data, and all that we have given is even more progression server success stories. Oh, and the population still dropping, and SE announcing they are done with major patches in Novembers, yet idea is still bad idea I guess.

[bungiefanNA]

The statistics saying more people played during the time when level 75 was the cap don't take into account causation. You have to determine the causation. Also, the environment has changed, so the incentives for people to make the choices they did has changed. The average age of the playerbase has changed, as well as the number of competing games and the types of games. Even if you released the same version of the software now as they had running back then, the change in incentives and options available means it likely wouldn't return the same statistics. We can't accurately predict what would happen if they released legacy servers. We just know that it is a big financial and temporal resource drain to attempt it. They would also have to advertise that they have done this, and they seem to be bad at advertising their MMOs.

[PlumbGame]

The statistics saying more people played during the time when level 75 was the cap don't take into account causation. You have to determine the causation. Also, the environment has changed, so the incentives for people to make the choices they did has changed. The average age of the playerbase has changed, as well as the number of competing games and the types of games. Even if you released the same version of the software now as they had running back then, the change in incentives and options available means it likely wouldn't return the same statistics. We can't accurately predict what would happen if they released legacy servers. We just know that it is a big financial and temporal resource drain to attempt it. They would also have to advertise that they have done this, and they seem to be bad at advertising their MMOs.

Aha, but you can accurately predict, based off the success of other games.

I think there may be some mistake here though. I feel you guys think we are saying that a "legacy server" or whatever you want to call it would bring 100s of thousands of players back to the game. No, it probably wont, BUT, it will probably bring more players to the game than the highest populated server has, definitely more than the majority of servers.

[machini]

I loved FFXI but this game is not the same game it was to me now. It has changed too much and in the wrong ways.

That is your opinion. And it is SE's opinion that the amount of money they would make off of a classic server would not be enough to warrant doing it. The sheer amount of work involved is daunting to someone who actually understands what it would entail.

First, you would need to determine what all has been changed from whatever specific point of time you choose as "classic". Then you need to revert all those changes back to that "classic" functionality. This will involve massive rewrites of huge sections of the server software. It will also require changes to the client, as you are removing functionality from the game that the client will expect, and the specific level of trust the client has in the client-server relationship for FFXI would mandate major client alterations.

Secondly, you need to do the same thing you did for the server software for all relevant databases. You need to rebuild mob spawn tables and loot tables for the game as they were at that specific point you chose. Which means that unless someone specifically documented all changes (and not a change log, but an actual "we tweaked variable x in calculation y by z%, and changed the number of placeholders for A mob to C from B") you're going to have to have someone scour change logs, and then player-created wikis, to try to create an approximation of those.

How much do you think it would cost to pay someone to do all that? How many man-hours do you think that would take? Because you need a person or people who are not only familiar with the specific client-server architecture that FFXI uses, but they also need to be familiar with the game mechanics themselves. And then they need to do massive changes to the client, the server, and the server's databases. How many thousands of hours do you think that would take? Just to go back, and check, one by one, each item in the game that existed at the time, check to see if its stats are correct based on what you think they were, and then remove anything that doesn't match?

The simple fact of the matter is that the amount of money SE would have to expend on creating your classic server would not approach the amount of money they would make from it. If the current number of subscribers is not enough to have them continue development for the current game, what makes you think you will get enough people to return to make a classic server break even, let alone be profitable?

I see too many people in this thread talking about things they have no understanding of, and assuming it must be easy, and cheap, because they have no inkling of the kind of effort or time it would take to do them, nor how much you would have to pay people to do the work. You are talking about thousands of man hours of reworking server source, database source, client source, client assets, POL backend, Squeenix Account Management to deal with that. How many subscribers do you think it would take to make that a break even proposition? Over what period of time? And then, not only do you have to pay to recreate that "classic" experience, you need people to maintain the servers, if for nothing else than to restart the machine when it crashes or the power goes out.

Now, not only have to incurred a huge expense in recreating that classic experience, but you run the risk of so fragmenting the existing playerbase that neither the live servers nor the classic server would be profitable. It's hard enough as it is on some servers to get a group together to do anything due to low population. If a classic server is such a demanded thing, as you and others seem to think it is, what do you think would happen if half of each existing server joined the classic server?

What would happen is that there would either need to be server mergers, or Live FFXI would have to shut down. There are not enough subscribers as it is to make squeenix want to continue FFXI development. What do you think would happen to FFXI if you not only incurred a huge cost in recreating a classic experience, but then drained so much of the player population away from the live game that the live game became even less profitable than it is now? So now you're out a huge amount of money from setting up the classic server, have fragmented your existing playerbase so much that live is not profitable, and what have you gained? You're going to need massive amounts of resubs for your classic server to offset the cost of having fragmented the existing playerbase, not even talking about making it profitable in the short term.

Because it needs to be profitable in the short term. They're not going to sink a hundred thousand USD or more into setting up a classic experience if it would take them 2 or 3 years to recoup that investment.

You and others really, really, really want a "classic" server. But you're considering this entirely from your feelings and desires, and not actually doing any thinking in regards to what effort is actually involved in doing it. It is not "simple" to do such a thing. It is not "easy" to do such a thing. It would not be "fast" to do such a thing. Game Developers generally do not hold on to 10 year old database information and source code for MMOs. I am under the impression that Square itself is notorious for dev teams destroying assets after a game is finalized so that other teams cannot use them.

Furthermore, all development done on this game requires PlayStation 2 Development Kits. There are not a lot of those left. I actually think Squeenix currently owns all the ones in existence that still function. Last time I checked, all development of the game client is done on the PS2 Dev Kits, and then is "ported" to PC. So now you are faced with the prospect of dwindling numbers of PS2 dev kits limiting possible development time. What is your solution to that? Recreate the tools on PC? That's a huge undertaking and extremely costly. So now you're out even more money on a classic server.

This is not going to happen. I'm sorry that hurts people's feelings, but that's the reality of the situation from someone with experience programming multiplayer online games.

[machini]

You see that? That is what goes through the minds of developers' heads, and the heads of accounting, and any other department that would be involved in approving the decision. Upon sober reflection of the type above, Squeenix has decided that it is not worth it to make a classic server. They've decided it isn't even worth it to continue work on current FFXI.

Please let this thread die with some dignity.

[nekroturkey]

from someone with experience programming multiplayer online games

You know who else has experience programming online games?

http://i.imgur.com/BFBSxzT.png

[PlumbGame]

You know who else has experience programming online games?

http://i.imgur.com/BFBSxzT.png

Stop with the logic, this nobody developer just stated the truth. The success that is currently right this minute as we speak happening with EQs TLP is fake, or the examples given in the OP.

All this person did was come into a thread, give their opinion that is completely opposite of the facts, stamp it with I'm a developer, then said to let this thread die.

[machini]

Stop with the logic, this nobody developer just stated the truth. The success that is currently right this minute as we speak happening with EQs TLP is fake.

Do you care to actually refute any of the points I make, or are you merely calling me out on my credentials? Because as far as I'm seeing this, you're all wrong, you cannot actually dispute anything I say, so you're latching on that one assertion and completely ignoring the merit of all the other arguments because you can't actually come up with with anything to counter them because I am right and you are wrong.

I understand you really, really want a classic server, but you need to accept reality.

[PlumbGame]

Do you care to actually refute any of the points I make, or are you merely calling me out on my credentials? Because as far as I'm seeing this, you're all wrong, you cannot actually dispute anything I say, so you're latching on that one assertion and completely ignoring the merit of all the other arguments because you can't actually come up with with anything to counter them because I am right and you are wrong.

I understand you really, really want a classic server, but you need to accept reality.

I just did.

Don't tell me to refute something you never refuted in the first place, then not like the example I gave.

it's as easy as typing everquest into your search engine.

[machini]

I just did.

Don't tell me to refute something you never refuted in the first place, then not like the example I gave.

it's as easy as typing everquest into your search engine.

Thank you for proving that you are nothing but a blind zealot incapable of listening to anything that contradicts your deeply held belief that a classic server is totes viable and profitable and the only reason Squeenix has decided not to make one is not because they did a silly thing like a cost-benefit analysis on how much money it would take and how much of a return they were likely to get, but solely because you have to pleaded and cried for it enough.

[PlumbGame]

Thank you for proving that you are nothing but a blind zealot incapable of listening to anything that contradicts your deeply held belief that a classic server is totes viable and profitable and the only reason Squeenix has decided not to make one is not because they did a silly thing like a cost-benefit analysis on how much money it would take and how much of a return they were likely to get, but solely because you have to pleaded and cried for it enough.

I listen to many things that contradicts my beliefs. I just like facts.

Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.

[machini]

I listen to many things that contradicts my beliefs. I just like facts.

Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.

You have given no facts yourself. Your entire argument hinges on "There were more players in the past, therefore the past version of the game is better, and recreating the past version of the game would result in increased players". You do not take into account the amount of time and money that would be required to do such a thing. You do not take into account the idea that the people who are interested in playing FFXI are already playing FFXI. You do not take into account that the player base from back then has aged and changed. Many of my friends who played FFXI when we were younger now have families, children, and careers, and cannot devote time to playing an MMO.

Your entire argument that a a classic server would work is based on your desire to have one.

Furthermore, I typed in EverQuest into google, and saw nothing that said that a classic server for FFXI would be massively profitable.

[PlumbGame]

You have given no facts yourself. Your entire argument hinges on "There were more players in the past, therefore the past version of the game is better, and recreating the past version of the game would result in increased players". You do not take into account the amount of time and money that would be required to do such a thing. You do not take into account the idea that the people who are interested in playing FFXI are already playing FFXI. You do not take into account that the player base from back then has aged and changed. Many of my friends who played FFXI when we were younger now have families, children, and careers, and cannot devote time to playing an MMO.

Your entire argument that a a classic server would work is based on your desire to have one.

Furthermore, I typed in EverQuest into google, and saw nothing that said that a classic server for FFXI would be massively profitable.

/facepalm. And the circle continues.

[detlef]

I can see what you are saying, but then use other games as an example. Not only have I ran into teenagers still play everquest, but what about all the 30+ 40+ year olds making up an at least 5k+ (this is being generous) population that just capped out their server on the TLP that launched?.I don’t really have an opinion on this except to postulate that EQ players appear to be very, very loyal to the original game for whatever reason. And I would hazard a guess (correct me if I’m wrong) that it is related to EQ being the only (?) serious MMO option at the time and therefore the people who played were very loyal and passionate about it. That’s all I can really say with my limited knowledge.


You are trying to present "this is 2015, no one has time for this" type comment, but it is completely false, even more so with studies being shown all the time with the increasing popularity of gaming and stuff like LoL hitting 3/4 (iirc) the size of the superbowl in terms of people watching. People have all the time in the world to sit around and play, and hence if you need to look at the examples already given.I guess I am saying that to a degree because 30-40 year olds generally have less free time to devote to gaming. But I also think that there are many more things competing for time even just looking at home entertainment. Things like mobile gaming and services like Netflix now take up huge chunks of our time. A game like FFXI could skate by back then, but in today’s cutthroat environment, a lot more effort is required to get people to choose to play your game.

The rest of the stuff you posted had to do with how tough for SE to do this and I can’t give an educated opinion on that except to say that if it was really easy to do, maybe it would be in the works.

[machini]

It's okay. I understand you can't accept reality.

The fact is every argument for a classic server or why a classic server for FFXI would work or be profitable has been shown to be false and wishful thinking. All you have resorted to now is name-calling, nitpicking, and outright ignoring everything that contradicts your desires. And I'm done dealing with someone such as you.

[bungiefanNA]

All client development requires PS2 dev kits. Server development is different, because it doesn't need the graphical and audio assets. Unofficial servers run mostly on SQL, and something running calculations of events. Official servers shouldn't be too different except in scale, since they are running on multiple machines working together.

[PlumbGame]

I don’t really have an opinion on this except to postulate that EQ players appear to be very, very loyal to the original game for whatever reason. And I would hazard a guess (correct me if I’m wrong) that it is related to EQ being the only (?) serious MMO option at the time and therefore the people who played were very loyal and passionate about it. That’s all I can really say with my limited knowledge.

I guess I am saying that to a degree because 30-40 year olds generally have less free time to devote to gaming. But I also think that there are many more things competing for time even just looking at home entertainment. Things like mobile gaming and services like Netflix now take up huge chunks of our time. A game like FFXI could skate by back then, but in today’s cutthroat environment, a lot more effort is required to get people to choose to play your game.

The rest of the stuff you posted had to do with how tough for SE to do this and I can’t give an educated opinion on that except to say that if it was really easy to do, maybe it would be in the works.

I do get where you are coming from though. I would never think that FFXI population will be as grand as it once was, but I do think at least 1 server would succeed. Hell, I know people, 15, 20, 30, 60, whatever, that will just come back just for the sake of the HNM game and being able to try and lock other people out of HNM claims. It's obvious that many of us enjoy current FFXI, I even enjoy current FFXI. I was super excited at the ease of restrictions on dynamis etc... That being said, again, I feel the amount of population interested in something like this is undervalued

I agree too, a lot of what we talk about is truly something only SE would know. Well to a degree, they can only pinpoint the most popular era based off of subs, no actual survey though. This is one reason other games are used, specifically EQ, at least from my perspective. EQ is one, if not the only MMORPG out there that can pin point similar aspects that exist in FFXI in the 75 days. The only real difference, to me at least, is the FF skin. Using this to your knowledge, you have to assume there is loyal fans also, well, actually, there is. You can use FFXIV to support that since it's one of the most successful WoW clones ever on the market, which I think is argubly because of the fan base if you are to look at similar wow clones success compared to WoW itself. Anyways, you can assume that there may be a success doing the same idea here. I think even more so given that FFXIs pop at peak was roughly 4 to 5x the amount EQ hit, leaving a vastly larger audience to appeal to.

[machini]

All client development requires PS2 dev kits. Server development is different, because it doesn't need the graphical and audio assets. Unofficial servers run mostly on SQL, and something running calculations of events. Official servers shouldn't be too different except in scale, since they are running on multiple machines working together.

Any alteration of the server that would involve data that would be visible to the client, such as weapon/equipment statistics, item descriptions, returning widescan to its old functionality, or seasonal adding and removal of NPCs would require changes to the client data.

The client-server model that FFXI uses places an extreme amount of trust in the client. A good deal of calculation and decision is not done server side. This means that making changes to the server will require changes to the client, which means server development requires the capability to do client development.

[Prrsha]

It's okay. I understand you can't accept reality.

The fact is every argument for a classic server or why a classic server for FFXI would work or be profitable has been shown to be false and wishful thinking. All you have resorted to now is name-calling, nitpicking, and outright ignoring everything that contradicts your desires. And I'm done dealing with someone such as you.

This peaceful request for a classic server has now turned into name calling because for some reason people and I will bold this... Just cannot accept another person's playstyle and only see things in BLACK and WHITE

In no way is it ANYONE's business to really debate how successful money wise this endeavor would be. That is SE's job. Not the forums. This is a simple post, for a legacy server that clearly people want. If SE wants to take a shot at it and bring back some new players, what harm is there in doing so?

You would still have two kinds of servers.

Why are you whining like a whambulance?

This idea is win win for both sides because... get ready for it... you have a choice.

You can choose the "legacy" server or current one. The question WE pose to SE is if it is viable to do so. In the end opinions about its success are stupid to debate unless you can magically see the future.

People posted similar examples of games, yes they are not FFXI but they are MMORPGs. It tends to show a pattern but, heck, it may work or not. The simple fact that SE is doing the VERY same thing on a phone speaks volumes to how they admit the current system does not work for a new game attracting NEW players. The devs SAID in their fresh pick, that in the past they have focused on new content but in the future will focus on OLD content now and revamping it for new players. What that means is anyone's guess but a "legacy" server would go a long way to achieving that goal.

Again... to finalize this... the OP was ASKING SE for a classic server. NOT erase the current ones. If they have the man power or money to do that, then they should know there is interest in that. Shouting at people and calling them names (or calling the idea stupid) is a trolls way to lock the thread so they can get their way. Please be civil... everyone. Respect everyone's playstyle and see that some people did indeed leave FFXI due to the changes it underwent. The only way to really debate how many would return would be a poll on a neutral (non-pay) site so they could get a tally. Or better yet. SE should e-mail everyone who left the game and ask if they would return if they opened a classic server.

Then... and only then would you have your answer. The ball is really in SE's court now and just bashing people with a new idea to bring in new players to a game you love dearly... WHY? What does this accomplish? A locked thread? Maybe that is what some people want around here.

Since SE is low on resources and said they would no longer make new content, why are you worried if some dev time is directed to a classic server. Even IF it fails, you have lost nothing. The devs aren't giving anymore content, why not try this idea so they can get some possible money out of it and please players who have left. It would take less work to just slap an older version on a server then it is to make an expansion. At the moment SE only has a few options to get players back and the age of using new content to do so is OVER. This idea is really more viable instead of leaving the servers to die as they are now. The number of subs aren't increasing btw, unlike the private servers...

[Prrsha]

It's okay. I understand you can't accept reality.

The fact is every argument for a classic server or why a classic server for FFXI would work or be profitable has been shown to be false and wishful thinking. All you have resorted to now is name-calling, nitpicking, and outright ignoring everything that contradicts your desires.


And I'm done dealing with someone such as you.

You just said people should stop name calling and what did you just say in the SAME post?

[machini]

You just said people should stop name calling and what did you just say in the SAME post?

The issue here is someone said "what's the argument against a classic server now?" and people responded with "the arguments against a classic server" which boil down to "it's not worth the money to SE to make one".

That's it. End of conversation. This thread should be dead and pushing up the daisies.

[nekroturkey]

"it's not worth the money to SE to make one"

Proof?

Otherwise, I'm going to have to counter with "it would be worth the money for SE to make one."

[Shirai]

Bring your best

[machini]

Proof?

Otherwise, I'm going to have to counter with "it would be worth the money for SE to make one."

If SE thought it would make money, they'd do it. The reason they're stopping development of FFXI is there's not enough money in doing more development. The reason they're not making a classic server is they don't think there's enough money in it.

[Prrsha]

This thread should be dead and pushing up the daisies.

Since when you do have the authority to declare a topic dead? Are you a moderator, no.

The point still stands true as there are people who wish SE to consider a classic server. As long as there is, no... the topic is not dead. If anything, it will resurface again and again (like it already has). However now FFXI is not offering anymore new content, this bears repeating.

[machini]

This is just like with the server merger thread. Some guy screams "SE WE NEED SERVER MERGERS" and SE doesn't do them. "SE LOOK AT MY NUMBERS SE WE NEED SERVER MERGERS" and people point out that SE has better numbers than he does. "NO WE NEED MERGERS WHARRHLGMG"

[Prrsha]

If SE thought it would make money, they'd do it. The reason they're stopping development of FFXI is there's not enough money in doing more development. The reason they're not making a classic server is they don't think there's enough money in it.

Proof plz. Do you work for SE? If not your opinion is only that.

[Prrsha]

This is just like with the server merger thread. Some guy screams "SE WE NEED SERVER MERGERS" and SE doesn't do them. "SE LOOK AT MY NUMBERS SE WE NEED SERVER MERGERS" and people point out that SE has better numbers than he does. "NO WE NEED MERGERS WHARRHLGMG"

Honestly... is there an ignore button on the forums. Complaint after complaint instead of a constructive idea or alternative like say...

How about implement a self level cap like I posted in another thread? Eh?

That way people who have maxed there level can level down to a level of their choosing and form a party and have a blast in CoP like it was intended in the "old days"

Something like: /synch Prrsha 20 ... and poof I am level 20.

There are too few players with lower level jobs to do older content with the old fashioned way.

[Shirai]

The burden of proof lies on both sides and I still haven't seen any proof of a classic server being economically viable.
I haven't yet seen the army of players ready to jump on and play this, heck the biggest advocates (one hand full of people, mind you) can't even get legacy linkshell together.

[nekroturkey]

If SE thought it would make money, they'd do it.

You mean like an FFVII HD remake? Or Nintendo making a full-fledged, main entry Pokemon game for home consoles? Both of those would make money, don't you agree? Yet neither one has happened yet.

You have no way of proving that money is the issue.


I haven't yet seen the army of players ready to jump on and play this, heck the biggest advocates (one hand full of people, mind you) can't even get legacy linkshell together.

To be fair, despite the fact that I'm pro-classic server, I wouldn't join a legacy linkshell. It'd be a total headache to get set up on the current servers.

[Shirai]

And you don't have proof money isn't.
Where's your counter argument, I'm waiting.

[Hellkat]

The burden of proof lies on both sides and I still haven't seen any proof of a classic server being economically viable.
I haven't yet seen the army of players ready to jump on and play this, heck the biggest advocates (one hand full of people, mind you) can't even get legacy linkshell together.

lol they most likely moved to private servers. All I see is one hand full of people rejecting the idea.

[Hellkat]

And you don't have proof money isn't.
Where's your counter argument, I'm waiting.


Where is your argument period? Proof like the others say!

[Shirai]

Wrong, it's not rejecting an idea.
If you actually read, all we're giving is reasons why it's unlikely to happen, yet all we get is "you're wrong, you meany, you hater!"

[nekroturkey]

And you don't have proof money isn't.
Where's your counter argument, I'm waiting.

http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/news/pdf/15q4earnings.pdf

[Shirai]

Yeah, I read those too.
But that's not an argument proving a classic server will profit SE.

Still waiting for your argument as to why you think a classic server would make SE enough money to build one and keep it running.
Because I am of a firm believe that it won't.

[Prrsha]

Wrong, it's not rejecting an idea.
If you actually read, all we're giving is reasons why it's unlikely to happen, yet all we get is "you're wrong, you meany, you hater!"

The debate should not be if it is likely to happen or unlikely... you are derailing the thread. The issue is about players wanting a classic server and if it would bring players back. The answer is yes. You nor I don't know for a fact if it will work or fail. This thread is for a plea to SE to make one. It is up to them to decide. What do you care anyhow if there is a classic server? You'd still get to play in your own server.

To debate fiscal facts is pointless because you will never know unless it is tried what the outcome will be. All you post are opinions and just that. The same goes for people who say it will be a fiscal success. It is just an opinion not fact. Did the OP ask how much money SE would make when they made the opening post? No. The thread is about player interest in a server. If you want to talk about money etiquette would dictate it be done in another thread maybe?

[nekroturkey]

Yeah, I read those too.
But that's not an argument proving a classic server will profit SE.

You were asking me for proof that money wouldn't be an issue, which I gave. Your next question is another one entirely.


Still waiting for your argument as to why you think a classic server would make SE enough money to build one and keep it running.

I've already given my reasons, you're asking me to repeat myself. I'm still waiting for one of you anti-classic server folks to give me any proof that a classic server wouldn't be successful. Instead, you're all just making yourselves angry and spouting off your opinions as fact.

[Prrsha]

Yeah, I read those too.
But that's not an argument proving a classic server will profit SE.

Still waiting for your argument as to why you think a classic server would make SE enough money to build one and keep it running.
Because I am of a firm believe that it won't.

No one will convince you because no one can. Nor can you dispute its potential success. All you can look at are other examples of MMORPGs and even that =/= FFXI.

[Shirai]

I am dictating nothing, I am merely answering the question what the main argument against such a classic server is, which, like any corporate decission, is money.

And it's clear a lot of you have no idea how large corporations think.

[Hellkat]

lol people think they are CEOs. It is like an endless record playing. Haven't others told you what you think is an only an opinion? Prove to me you have a business degree major.

[Shirai]

You can say that for both sides, let's just agree that we disagree and neither side is going to give in because there is no right in this debate, nor is there any wrong for that matter.
Although I am sure some people would love to debate that last statement of mine.

And no, I don't have a business major, but I am an IT employee of a major corporation however so I do have a little insight on what machinery and the people maintaining it cost on a yearly basis.

[Prrsha]

Sigh... it seems no one listens. Money is not the issue here. If SE wanted to remake FFXI on a whim and lose money like they did in FFXIV (in the beginning) they could do so. Every action isn't always money related. Some is about company loyalty. Just because YOU can't see the reasoning in something, doesn't mean another person, or company... may see a potential opportunity where you see none.

Me thinks you underestimate how many people left due to the major changes FFXI underwent. I can speak for FACT and I would post facebook comments (with permission only) that the MAJORITY of my LS left DUE to abyssea after a few months. They tried coming back but all saw it too different for their taste now. My LS members numbered around 100+ between the two. MithraPride was huge. Emerald Arcanum was large as well but never reached 100.

Yes, as strange as it seems we just about all keep in contact (some often, some seldom) via facebook. I kept a list on paper back in the day of everyone's e-mail and account name, so it was easy to round up a facebook ring. We were all good friends who played for many years. I posted the above stats about my LS and such. Heck... I should just try to contact as many as I can in the small amount of time that is left during the free trial... have them post so you will shut up about "handfuls" of people. It would put the matter to rest that many vets still wish to play FFXI but will not due to the changes. Hence the idea for a server. Blech...

[Alhanelem]

Since when you do have the authority to declare a topic dead? Are you a moderator, no.

The point still stands true as there are people who wish SE to consider a classic server. As long as there is, no... the topic is not dead. If anything, it will resurface again and again (like it already has). However now FFXI is not offering anymore new content, this bears repeating.
There are also people who don't wish them to, but don't even need to as we know they won't. The only thing the proponents of this are going to get is the mobile game.


Nor can you dispute its potential success.Or its potential failiure. I'm not saying it couldn't work at all, but all the supporters here are overstating its prospects based on not a lot of actual information.


Sigh... it seems no one listens. Money is not the issue here. If SE wanted to remake FFXI on a whim and lose money like they did in FFXIV (in the beginning) they could do so. Every action isn't always money related.It indirectly was about the money for FFXIV. They saw the original version as having potentially irrepreably damaging the final fantasy brand, and they felt like they had to fix it so their flagship franchise would keep bringing in the goods. Of course, the result was very successful and a win for pretty much everyone involved. The players got a better game and SE got more money.

[Prrsha]

There are also people who don't wish them to, but don't even need to as we know they won't. The only thing the proponents of this are going to get is the mobile game.

Why are you against the idea? Players have a choice. This is getting redundant as you never seem to get that part. Plus no offence but from past encounters I have seen in threads with you involved, you bash every idea you don't agree with like you are preaching against the Devil itself.

Plus like I said there is interest in this, I should just copy and paste this sentence to every response. :rolleyes:

Also comparing the mobile game to FFXI is like comparing apples and oranges. They ARE not the same game, not even close.

[Zarchery]

lol they most likely moved to private servers. All I see is one hand full of people rejecting the idea.

Funny. I see about half a dozen people supporting the idea and insisting that their half dozen extrapolates to the 2,000 or so a classic server would need.

Both pro and con sides are arguing an opinion here. Difference is that the the "con" people are honest enough to admit it.

[Zarchery]

In no way is it ANYONE's business to really debate how successful money wise this endeavor would be. That is SE's job. Not the forums. This is a simple post, for a legacy server that clearly people want.

Yet here we are. You're free to leave this thread and stop debating any time you want. It takes two to tango, as the saying goes.


If SE wants to take a shot at it and bring back some new players, what harm is there in doing so?

No harm to the players. I have seen almost nobody claim this. Stop making this strawman. I think the closest we got was Anahalem's (sorry I can't remember how to spell his name) assertion that it would divide the playerbase, but he was the only one saying that.

It'd be great harm to SquareEnix to invest time and money into a product with little demand. Like Pepsi bringing back Pepsi Kona. Yeah I liked, some other people liked it, but it was a terrible flop. Given your ideas of how business works, I should probably extrapolate that to several million and conclude that a return of Pepsi Kona is a no-brainer good idea.

[madmartin]

You need to stop. You obviously have no first-hand experience with the private servers you're talking about. They are incomplete, do not have proper loot or spawn tables, half the JAs do absolutely nothing, and a great deal of other stuff is wrong with them. They are not anything approaching playable. They also do not incorporate any of the live server source code.

this is the biggrest load of rubbish i've read on this thread so far....




Any alteration of the server that would involve data that would be visible to the client, such as weapon/equipment statistics, item descriptions, returning widescan to its old functionality, or seasonal adding and removal of NPCs would require changes to the client data.

The client-server model that FFXI uses places an extreme amount of trust in the client. A good deal of calculation and decision is not done server side. This means that making changes to the server will require changes to the client, which means server development requires the capability to do client development.

This is also rubbish, except maybe the item stats and descriptions bit.




Funny. I see about half a dozen people supporting the idea and insisting that their half dozen extrapolates to the 2,000 or so a classic server would need.

Both pro and con sides are arguing an opinion here. Difference is that the the "con" people are honest enough to admit it.

Classic ffxi survives perfectly well with 100 players consecutively, as long as lvl sync is enabled...

[Bluestar2kx]

Virtually 0%? This is total supposition, backed by your own personal feelings. I respect your opinion, but I'm going to need evidence to support what you're saying.

Then why is every MMO under the sun copying Warcraft? FFXIV included. Square have shown that they're willing to copycat things that are successful.

It's not quite 0%, but it is very small.
Most of the people a classic 75 era server would entice back is the old vets who left years ago due to aby. And they likely wouldn't stay very long because half left that age because they were bored, the other half left because they were bored and didn't like how aby changed things, and the new CoD crowd that was trying the game, granted, you can't get away from those people, they're a dime a dozen on the net now, and they don't care about you or what you need or the alliance, their out for themselves, that would be FFXI's influx group, and getting 18-32 people to cooperate was hard back then, imagine doing it with a few dozen entitled every wo(man) for themselves attitude gamers have these days?

The odds of having any sort of new player influx are extremely low, you might get some players, a few thousand at first, trickling down to few hundred maybe over 6 months on such a server, but nothing that could sustain such a server for long. The reason being several parts (in addition to the above), 1: the engine. Most of the complaints I hear from people who've not tried XI or thought about it but decided against it, are over the graphics being too dated to play, part of why XIV has such a big emphasis on beauty, but lacks in so many other areas I bet my fellows here could help me write a book about it.

2: MMO's are dying. They partly because old ones are running their course due to lack of interest by new and old players, they've been out so long that only the die hard fans still play consistently with but a few new players. But the biggest reason is your last point: "Every MMO under the sun is copying WoW." And if you notice, 90% of the games that do are effectively failures, they go F2P within a year, and effectively die within 2years, because they're nothing new, they're the same rehashes and their too easy, there's no investment in these MMO's at all, no reason to stay, so players don't, this is why WoW dropped 3m subs just after an expansion pack.

But the additional problem is, except korean mmo's there's nothing in the western portfolio that has that sort of value, esp long term, so MMO's are dying across the board as players become less and less interested in them. This same problem is starting to crop up in mainstream gaming too. Mobile games are struggling to hold players, AAA titles are slowly declining from most of the major houses with but few exceptions, because their all the same thing, and they all lack a reward for time investment (or don't have time investment at all) why do you think tougher games are starting to get more attention? Even korean MMO's are starting to get more attention then their western counterparts. I know many XIV players are they say the same as we hear in every other modern MMO: There's nothing to do, there's nothing worth staying for.

Nothing lasts forever, esp in the MMO world.

3: MMO's put so much focus into the easy fast grind that WoW taught us and that favors the rapid risers in order to keep them interested, that they've forgotten their main income comes from those who are average or casual players, and there's nothing for them. The rapid risers to cap are always done in a few months, partly because the way up is so easy and simple, and partly because they like it, but they make up a small portion of the average player base of an MMO. Average players and more casual players make up the bulk, but they have so little to do but level because there's nothing to do other then that because the game caters to those who hit cap in a couple weeks.

True FFXI is one of those games, as are several others such as EQ, that have survived the ages, but as I said, it's aging, and due to it's original design, SE can't keep it updating as is for much longer without going back and re-writing half the game, which would cost a lot more then it takes to run it, and likely would increase those costs afterwards that the game isn't able to bring in, or isn't likely to bring in even with a new influx of players, because getting the word out would require a marketing campaign and those costs millions more on top of rebuilding the game even if they used XIV's engine and worked it up for FFXI.

A campaign to upgrade FFXI like that would need to bring subs up to around 500-600k+ to get SE to be willing to put in the money (likely closer to a million), and nobody can promise, or expect, even a 1/4th of that, because there's just not enough players left with interest in MMO's, and esp not old ones with a face lift. True, a classic server might entice some people if XI got updated, but you'd again have the old problem of: Losing so much content, and could FFXI's extreme grind from the old days push people away again? MMO's these days can't swing to far one way of the other, towards extreme grind, nor towards very easy, it requires a balance, one FFXI is about as close to as we can get, only now. If you take that away, you run back into the same problem that started all of this years ago.

i just don't see a classic server working.
Maybe it works fine for those private groups, who can be more particular about who's in the game then SE can, but the odds of it working large scale on public servers, are very small, as is the long term interest group. I would give it, at most, 3 months before the classic server started to fail on itself, and that's not really enough to warrant the expense. This thread is up to 17 pages, and I'd bet most of it is the same small group of people arguing, which lends credit to this not being a good idea.

The only way to truly determine interest is a poll SE sends through our account emails for all FFXI account holders, and see what happens.
But I can't foresee that giving results interested groups here are seeking, and certainly not enough to give SE pause.

[Ethereal]

Why are you against the idea? Players have a choice. This is getting redundant as you never seem to get that part. Plus no offence but from past encounters I have seen in threads with you involved, you bash every idea you don't agree with like you are preaching against the Devil itself.

Plus like I said there is interest in this, I should just copy and paste this sentence to every response. :rolleyes:

Also comparing the mobile game to FFXI is like comparing apples and oranges. They ARE not the same game, not even close.

If Alhanelem agrees with a post, it is very rare you'll see a comment. Only when he disagrees with someone's opinion, he'll post....which is 99% of the time lmao.

[Tidis]

If there's enough of you who want to do 75 content at level 75 you realise you can right? Whether you have to start new characters or delevel your old ones, you can hit 75 and change to limit mode, that way you'll never level up past 75. Sure some content has been changed, you won't be able to do old school dynamis but Limbus, Sea, Sky, Einherjar are all the same.

[Shirai]

I've opted them to do that before, the counter argument is a valid one too though.
Partially you are excluding yourself from the rest of the "world" with that, and as you say yourself, there are things that are going to be largely different from how they were before.
One example is the challenge of the level capped CoP missions.
(I'd say the Dynamis thing is an improvement though, the content itself is still beatable by level 75 players, including the Dynamis lord.)

But it may still be the best option because in all fairness, there won't be a classic server. It's not going to happen.
Especially not one which also has a lot of the positive changes that have been brought to the game like the extra inventory, equipsets, macro books, home points, and I just started to name a few.

[Ethereal]

The original players that were into the hardcore 75 content back in the days, myself included...grew older, life changed, more responsibilities etc etc. We're not in our teens anymore (now ~30+). Even if the 75 grinding content days came back, I'd guess that it would last for a short time for most and then fade. A lot of us just don't have the time that we used to. The lucky ones might lol.

I would personally like the option to have an official 75 content server, just because more options is always better, but that's doubtful.

A growing playerbase is what is needed to keep a game alive because old players fade away over time. But there is not a substantial amount of new players coming in. Unfortunately I think the FFXI ship sailed, and honestly I blame the lack of marketing and innovation. They didn't get the word out there enough like WoW. New younger kids don't know of this game or anything about it at all, so why would they ask mom or dad to sign up?

All I can honestly see them doing is throwing us a bone and keeping it running for those that still care to play (which is what they're doing). Hopefully they will spend the $ and remaster the game and market it correctly for the new players. I would very much like to see Vana'diel continue strong even if I don't have the time to run with it.

[Idleness]

Unfortunately I think the FFXI ship sailed, and honestly I blame the lack of marketing and innovation.

Why blame? This game stands as one of the most successful MMOs of all time. Very few of its contemporaries are still running, those that are have largely gone F2P/P2W. It's certainly the most profitable FF ever made.

It's been 13 years, that's incredible. But at a certain point we will all have to let it go, gracefully. As a side note, a lot of older MMOs enjoy a certain amount of activity on, shall we say, less then entirely authorised servers. SWG pre-CU is still going, I believe.

[bazookatooth]

I'm just imagining what fun people would have with all the exploits that have been patched since 75. Think of all the old shifty stuff that people have done over the years that would be possible again on a classic server. salvage duping, position hacks, claim bots, fishing bots, speed hacks, NM pinning, MPKs... the list goes on. Nefarious individuals and RMT would have a field day with it.

[Alhanelem]

Why are you against the idea? Players have a choice. This is getting redundant as you never seem to get that part. Plus no offence but from past encounters I have seen in threads with you involved, you bash every idea you don't agree with like you are preaching against the Devil itself.

Plus like I said there is interest in this, I should just copy and paste this sentence to every response. :rolleyes:

Also comparing the mobile game to FFXI is like comparing apples and oranges. They ARE not the same game, not even close.

Perhaps I need to copy and paste this in every response because apparently the reasons don't get read
1) If work began right now, it would take resources away from remaining development time on the current version.
2) Whether or not it happened as soon as possible, it would divide the community, damaging the ability of either group of players to fully enjoy the game due to the game's comparatively small population.
3) A progression server makes a little more sense than a "classic server" as described. Being frozen in time with a more limited selection of content is only going to mean people will play for a while, get bored, and quit again, making it effectively not worth it (little more than a nostalgia trip), whereas a progression server would last longer due to the full range of content and areas still being playable. Because of this, the time and money spent to implement the classic server would be wasted
4)As a player of the current game and my view of how it would damage my ability to play it, I simply do not want to see the "classic server" exist. because I'm not interested in the classic server. It would not be the same as literally going back in time to when the game was the most popular, because we've already been through the content before. We have fond memories of the past, but creating a server in the past is not going to restore those experiences the way people think they would.
5) I have perfectly reasonable reasons not to like the idea. You're totally welcome to disagree and that's fine. But attacking me for my opinion like i must be crazy for not liking it is not acceptable or reasonable.

Further, the supporting arguments are flawed and based on a very limited amount of past performance information (essentially "it's guaranteed to work because three other games did not really the same thing and one of them wasn't even developed by them, it was just allowed to exist!"), basically just saying because a couple other games did it, it's guaranteed to work for this game and SE is stupid not to see it.

Also, the mobile game (NOT grandmasters, the other thing) IS going to be close to the same thing. It will be seperate with an interface adapted for mobile but the content more or less the same.


This is also rubbish, except maybe the item stats and descriptions bit.Your branding something "rubbish" doesn't make it somehow false.


Unfortunately I think the FFXI ship sailed, and honestly I blame the lack of marketing and innovation.While I disagree about the innovation part, I completely agree that FFXI's biggest failiure was poor marketing.

[Alhanelem]

If Alhanelem agrees with a post, it is very rare you'll see a comment. Only when he disagrees with someone's opinion, he'll post....which is 99% of the time lmao.
The same is true of almost everyone, so why are you name dropping me? If people like a post, they generally click the "Like" button and that's it. Because that's what it's for. There is no dislike button, so if you dislike something the only way is to say so in the thread. When people agree, there isn't a lot of discussion, because well, nobody needs to be convinced of anything, everyone's on the same page agreeing, so what is there to talk about?

I have liked and supported many ideas and suggestions over the years- Ordinarily this means a simple "I support this and think it's a great idea' and that's it, or simply liking the post and moving on. Only noticing the disagreements I make does not make that less true. I'm getting really sick of being picked on just because I post a lot.

[Isal]

If this thread was meant to be a plea, it was poorly titled. It begs a question, and regardless of how well or which side they're on, people are answering. This thread is getting what its title asked for, spot on. The title doesn't say "Classic server, what's the argument against it (that I'd agree/be satisfied with) now? So naturally, the thread's going to draw in arguments from both sides, likely most from the "against" side, given that's also a part of the angle of the thread's title. Complaining that people are trying to shoot down your plea in this thread is like saying "Come at me, bro!" and then whining that people are approaching you in a less than friendly manner.

Personally, I agree with the assessment Bluestar2kx has made about MMOs in general. It made me realize that I would rather see SE put time into a new MMO (naturally, after XIV has had its heyday, I highly doubt SE considers their "flagship" to have completely "sailed" just yet) that revisits Vana'diel. Something built from the ground up on a new engine with no issues of PS2 dev kits or dated graphics, and hopefully with a gameplay formula that finds a middle-ground between today's (and XIV's) WoW clones and the more involved, indepth gameplay of "yore". More emphasis on the open world, instances only where necessary rather than the theme-park standard. Dying means spending 3-5 minutes to run back from the nearest homepoint (assuming you didn't forget to tag said homepoint first!)

Yeah, I play Final Fantasy XIV as well, but I've found that I'm only interested in the main story, and that once I'm caught up with that, all the side quests and dungeon grinds to get stronger gear for running those same dungeons a few seconds quicker can take a hike (personally). I could go on but it'd be a bit off topic.

I guess my argument against a classic server is simply that I'd personally rather see effort and time go into a spruced up, new iteration of Final Fantasy XI with the aim to recapture the better parts of what it used to be.

[madmartin]

Your branding something "rubbish" doesn't make it somehow false.




..except when it is false, the poster i was responding to came down on someone for having "no first hand experience of private servers" yet has clearly demonstrated she doesn't either and has no clue about their current state and what they're capable of!

[Alhanelem]

..except when it is false, the poster i was responding to came down on someone for having "no first hand experience of private servers" yet has clearly demonstrated she doesn't either and has no clue about their current state and what they're capable of!
private server !=live game. The private servers aren't 100% functional, and can't be used as a basis of comparison. It would require development time. They can't just wave a magic wand and say "Bam. classic server!"

The private servers were the product of years of lot of hard work by those involved in the project(s). They didn't simply happen overnight, and they still aren't 100% up to par with gameplay functionality. Because of this, the argument "illicit third party users made private servers, therefore SE can make a classic server" is fallacious.

[Ethereal]

The same is true of almost everyone, so why are you name dropping me? If people like a post, they generally click the "Like" button and that's it. Because that's what it's for. There is no dislike button, so if you dislike something the only way is to say so in the thread. When people agree, there isn't a lot of discussion, because well, nobody needs to be convinced of anything, everyone's on the same page agreeing, so what is there to talk about?

I have liked and supported many ideas and suggestions over the years- Ordinarily this means a simple "I support this and think it's a great idea' and that's it, or simply liking the post and moving on. Only noticing the disagreements I make does not make that less true. I'm getting really sick of being picked on just because I post a lot.

Apologies, that was said in my mind in a jokingly manner.

[Ethereal]

Why blame? This game stands as one of the most successful MMOs of all time. Very few of its contemporaries are still running, those that are have largely gone F2P/P2W. It's certainly the most profitable FF ever made.

It's been 13 years, that's incredible. But at a certain point we will all have to let it go, gracefully. As a side note, a lot of older MMOs enjoy a certain amount of activity on, shall we say, less then entirely authorised servers. SWG pre-CU is still going, I believe.

Not to focus on the semantics of it, but putting blame doesn't mean it wasn't successful. When something ends, surely there's a cause or reason for it, hence the blame.

[Ethereal]

If there's enough of you who want to do 75 content at level 75 you realise you can right? Whether you have to start new characters or delevel your old ones, you can hit 75 and change to limit mode, that way you'll never level up past 75. Sure some content has been changed, you won't be able to do old school dynamis but Limbus, Sea, Sky, Einherjar are all the same.

I agree you definitely can to some extent, but.....we all know it's just not remotely the same. Maybe they should have just left the cap alone at 75 since the game was balanced and just keep adding more and more gear. Making it 99 just blew all the old stuff away.


Adding: Wonder if they could have just raised the level of end game battles like HNMs (things that drop items of worth) - and change or enhance the items that they drop. Like make Fafnir a higher Ilvl and drop an HQ ridill - more DMG/stats

That I think would make the old content worth doing again. There's still more old content than new content.

[madmartin]

private server !=live game. The private servers aren't 100% functional, and can't be used as a basis of comparison. It would require development time. They can't just wave a magic wand and say "Bam. classic server!"

The private servers were the product of years of lot of hard work by those involved in the project(s). They didn't simply happen overnight, and they still aren't 100% up to par with gameplay functionality. Because of this, the argument "illicit third party users made private servers, therefore SE can make a classic server" is fallacious.

i wasn't even trying to make that argument! Was merely calling someone out on their blatant misinformation and coming down on someone who clearly knows more!

[Alhanelem]

I agree you definitely can to some extent, but.....we all know it's just not remotely the same.The only reason it's not the same is because you've done it a million times before. Nostalgia is essentially discovering the same thing isn't as fun as it used to be. Even if the level cap was 75 all these years, the same thing would be happening.

I don't see how killing things at level 75 with level 75 gear (or level synced higher gear, which is inferior) is different from killing things at level 75 with 75 gear.

In other words, if it's "just not the same" the way things are currently, it would be "just not the same" even if the cap was 75 now.

This is what we call the "rose colored glasses" effect. The grass is always greener on the other side, insert your favorite adage here.

[Dreamin]

honestly what we really should ask SE to give us is just a 'Dislike' or 'down vote' buttons for the official forum.

[Alhanelem]

honestly what we really should ask SE to give us is just a 'Dislike' or 'down vote' buttons for the official forum.We all know just how well that would go over >.>

There's a reason why this forum, facebook, twitter, etc. all only have "like" buttons and not "dislike" buttons.

[Ethereal]

Driving around in 1987 with a 1987 Iroc Z was cool and fun. Driving around in 2015 with a 1987 Iroc Z kind of loses it's coolness and satisfaction when there's much newer and nicer options available. If there's no other options available then some of the cool factor remains. But this is an MMO, we're not just playing in our own little world. People do like to run around showing off their items or achievements they worked for when you play the game with other people that have their own opinions. Dinging 75 held some amount of appeal, dinging 99 - well who cares. If it was a 1 player game then yes, who cares.

Technically it's an opinion, but I'd have to think that most people would agree that purposely downgrading is not as fun or satisfying as playing with the best stuff at the time.

[nekroturkey]

https://4gameforum.com/threads/lineage-2-classic-europe-what-is-next.26645/

Dear friends!

We all made quite some work. After this month we have 16555 votes, and it is a little bit more than our initial goal. That is great!
I bet you all want to know what happens next, and here it is: we've started working towards opening the server. As you can imagine, it involves a lot of preparation, discussion, testing and other complicated stuff which we cannot talk about in details. There is still a risk that the project won't be launched if the circumstances are not in our favour.
We appreciate your efforts and your involvement in this project. You've shown your desire to see Lineage 2 Classic in Europe, and it means a lot for us.
Stay tuned, updates on the project will be posted on the forum as soon as we have them.

Well, would you look at that. Another success story. They surpassed their goal, even more players than they initially hoped for voted for a classic server.

[Alhanelem]

Driving around in 1987 with a 1987 Iroc Z was cool and fun. Driving around in 2015 with a 1987 Iroc Z kind of loses it's coolness and satisfaction when there's much newer and nicer options available. If there's no other options available then some of the cool factor remains. But this is an MMO, we're not just playing in our own little world. People do like to run around showing off their items or achievements they worked for when you play the game with other people that have their own opinions. Dinging 75 held some amount of appeal, dinging 99 - well who cares. If it was a 1 player game then yes, who cares.

Technically it's an opinion, but I'd have to think that most people would agree that purposely downgrading is not as fun or satisfying as playing with the best stuff at the time.
This is a case where, while I don't entirely agree, i see your point. However, this isn't about showing off gear or achievements, this is more about the gameplay and killing things. Also, I would argue that just because you're playing in an alternate server where that's the limit, doesnt' mean you aren't aware of the other servers where it isn't the limit. Since we already know about level 99 and what it offers, playing on a classic server is still technically artificially limiting yourself and to me, the result would be the same.

[Ethereal]

This is a case where, while I don't entirely agree, i see your point. However, this isn't about showing off gear or achievements, this is more about the gameplay and killing things. Also, I would argue that just because you're playing in an alternate server where that's the limit, doesnt' mean you aren't aware of the other servers where it isn't the limit. Since we already know about level 99 and what it offers, playing on a classic server is still technically artificially limiting yourself and to me, the result would be the same.

Also true...

[nekroturkey]

i just don't see a classic server working.
Maybe it works fine for those private groups, who can be more particular about who's in the game then SE can, but the odds of it working large scale on public servers, are very small, as is the long term interest group. I would give it, at most, 3 months before the classic server started to fail on itself, and that's not really enough to warrant the expense. This thread is up to 17 pages, and I'd bet most of it is the same small group of people arguing, which lends credit to this not being a good idea.

The only way to truly determine interest is a poll SE sends through our account emails for all FFXI account holders, and see what happens.
But I can't foresee that giving results interested groups here are seeking, and certainly not enough to give SE pause.

Well, it seemed to work out really well for Lineage 2. They required a goal of 15k signatures supporting a classic server, and ended up getting 16k. That was in a single month's time, too.

With all of these success stories, I have no reason to believe a classic server wouldn't be a hit. Naysayers are just that, and they've provided no source to back any of their claims. Just their own personal beliefs, which have become increasingly hostile since this thread has began.

[Alhanelem]

https://4gameforum.com/threads/lineage-2-classic-europe-what-is-next.26645/

Dear friends!

We all made quite some work. After this month we have 16555 votes, and it is a little bit more than our initial goal. That is great!
I bet you all want to know what happens next, and here it is: we've started working towards opening the server. As you can imagine, it involves a lot of preparation, discussion, testing and other complicated stuff which we cannot talk about in details. There is still a risk that the project won't be launched if the circumstances are not in our favour.
We appreciate your efforts and your involvement in this project. You've shown your desire to see Lineage 2 Classic in Europe, and it means a lot for us.
Stay tuned, updates on the project will be posted on the forum as soon as we have them.

Well, would you look at that. Another success story. They surpassed their goal, even more players than they initially hoped for voted for a classic server.
I surpassed my goal of 5 posts in this thread. Well, not really, but surpassing a goal means nothing. You can set a goal too high and not surpass it, or you can set a goal low and blow it out of the water. Also, voting for it doesn't guarantee they'll play on it, or for how long, because if it isn't updated, it's fate will be the same as FFXI when it doesn't get updated.

Time warping is great and all, but you still have to offer new content to keep player's interest. Which is why "progression" is better than "classic," as it gives the chance to reminisce of the good ol days while still gradually unlocking new content.

More games doing this is actually a concern to me, because it suggests to me that the developers are failing at creating captivating content for their players if people want to go back to the old version.

[nekroturkey]

Also, voting for it doesn't guarantee they'll play on it, or for how long


So I ask a question: Are you demanding that I prove that people leave the game for other reasons than "the game used to be more fun?" I'd be happy to conduct a survey if you'd like

So, you feel voting is useless when it's used to show how many people are interested in a classic server, yet you feel you can prove your point by polling people on why they left the game?

I hope you see the double standard in that kind of logic.

[Seillan]

Well, it seemed to work out really well for Lineage 2. They required a goal of 15k signatures supporting a classic server, and ended up getting 16k. That was in a single month's time, too.

With all of these success stories, I have no reason to believe a classic server wouldn't be a hit. Naysayers are just that, and they've provided no source to back any of their claims. Just their own personal beliefs, which have become increasingly hostile since this thread has began.

Not that I'm arguing a classic server for FFXI couldn't be successful, I'm just not so sure that it's entirely fair to compare it to a classic server for the other games mentioned in this thread so far. I've played during the classic era on all three games (Everquest, L2, and FFXI) and I can say without a doubt that FFXI was the most unforgiving when it came to doing anything by yourself after the initial levels. From my observations through playing various private servers and the like, it seems that even mmo "vets" and classic proponents alike have a hard time swallowing a strictly group centric experience in this modern gaming age. On P99, it's common to see people asking on the forums about which classes work well solo, so that they have a choice when groups aren't available. That kind of freedom is something that many of us have come to really appreciate over the years, especially with most of us having jobs now, among other responsibilities.

As harsh as classic EQ could be, I recall most classes having a least one strategy that allowed them to solo -- albeit, some more slowly than others. In Lineage 2, I don't remember ever having a hard time leveling solo -- well, aside from it taking an eternity and being repetitive/boring as all hell (imo.) Classic FFXI, on the other hand, was bar none the most difficult mmorpg I've ever played in a solo sense (and maybe even in general.) For most classes, it seemed virtually impossible to reasonably solo anything that gave experience after a certain point, unless you were a BST. Granted I only got to around 40 on my DRK before I finally ended up quitting for that very reason, so if there were viable ways to solo with other jobs, please excuse my ignorance.

Of course, as there are classic-era private servers, there are obviously people out there that are fine doing it the old fashioned way, despite how grueling it could be when you couldn't find a group. My only question is, would there be enough to facilitate an entire official server and if so, would most of them stick around after remembering how harsh a mistress FFXI was in its heyday? Hard to say one way or the other.

[nekroturkey]

Not that I'm arguing a classic server for FFXI couldn't be successful, I'm just not so sure that it's entirely fair to compare it to a classic server for the other games mentioned in this thread so far.

I can see where you're coming from, and I understand when other people say that just because other classic servers are successful, doesn't mean a classic FFXI server would be successful.

But for a moment, let's talk about the mobile native app that's set to be released sometime next year. None of us could've guessed that Square would be releasing a mobile version of FFXI. If anyone had requested this on the forums, it would've been met with even more criticism than asking for a classic server. However, despite the lack of perceived interest, they're still releasing it. Why? Because Square can see the success of mobile MMOs currently out on the market.

It's up to the people who want a classic server, to prove to Square that there is enough interest to support one. That classic servers for other games have been, and continue to be successful. If there's anything this mobile native app has shown me, it's that Square is willing to do things if they can see the potential success for it. That's why I showcased the success of other classic servers in my OP, because that seems like the best way to reach Square's ear based on past experience.

[Seillan]

I can see where you're coming from, and I understand when other people say that just because other classic servers are successful, doesn't mean a classic FFXI server would be successful.

But for a moment, let's talk about the mobile native app that's set to be released sometime next year. None of us could've guessed that Square would be releasing a mobile version of FFXI. If anyone had requested this on the forums, it would've been met with even more criticism than asking for a classic server. However, despite the lack of perceived interest, they're still releasing it. Why? Because Square can see the success of mobile MMOs currently out on the market.

It's up to the people who want a classic server, to prove to Square that there is enough interest to support one. That classic servers for other games have been, and continue to be successful. If there's anything this mobile native app has shown me, it's that Square is willing to do things if they can see the potential success for it. That's why I showcased the success of other classic servers in my OP, because that seems like the best way to reach Square's ear based on past experience.

Can't argue with that. The only way to know if something would be truly successful would be to try it out firsthand, I suppose. Prediction only goes so far, but as you said, they do have other examples to go by as well.

Even though I likely wouldn't play it myself, I have no issue with people that want a classic experience to have it. Variety is the spice of life, and all that.

edit: Clarification

[Alhanelem]

So, you feel voting is useless when it's used to show how many people are interested in a classic server, yet you feel you can prove your point by polling people on why they left the game?

I hope you see the double standard in that kind of logic.
There's no double standard. However, you were demanding data, so I offered a way of getting data. I didn't say that I actually thought that data was useful (and I made it pretty clear in my response that it isn't useful).


If anyone had requested this on the forums, it would've been met with even more criticism than asking for a classic server. However, despite the lack of perceived interest, they're still releasing it. Why? Because Square can see the success of mobile MMOs currently out on the market. What makes you so sure the idea would have been criticized more? Prior to learning that it was a seperate game and not a client for the first game, I was actually a little interested in it. Finding out that it was its own thing was what killed it for me.

[PlumbGame]

Not that I'm arguing a classic server for FFXI couldn't be successful, I'm just not so sure that it's entirely fair to compare it to a classic server for the other games mentioned in this thread so far. I've played during the classic era on all three games (Everquest, L2, and FFXI) and I can say without a doubt that FFXI was the most unforgiving when it came to doing anything by yourself after the initial levels. From my observations through playing various private servers and the like, it seems that even mmo "vets" and classic proponents alike have a hard time swallowing a strictly group centric experience in this modern gaming age. On P99, it's common to see people asking on the forums about which classes work well solo, so that they have a choice when groups aren't available. That kind of freedom is something that many of us have come to really appreciate over the years, especially with most of us having jobs now, among other responsibilities.

As harsh as classic EQ could be, I recall most classes having a least one strategy that allowed them to solo -- albeit, some more slowly than others. In Lineage 2, I don't remember ever having a hard time leveling solo -- well, aside from it taking an eternity and being repetitive/boring as all hell (imo.) Classic FFXI, on the other hand, was bar none the most difficult mmorpg I've ever played in a solo sense (and maybe even in general.) For most classes, it seemed virtually impossible to reasonably solo anything that gave experience after a certain point, unless you were a BST. Granted I only got to around 40 on my DRK before I finally ended up quitting for that very reason, so if there were viable ways to solo with other jobs, please excuse my ignorance.

Of course, as there are classic-era private servers, there are obviously people out there that are fine doing it the old fashioned way, despite how grueling it could be when you couldn't find a group. My only question is, would there be enough to facilitate an entire official server and if so, would most of them stick around after remembering how harsh a mistress FFXI was in its heyday? Hard to say one way or the other.

Classic EQ was harder. Let me rephrase, both classic FFXI and classic EQ were easy. Classic EQ though had much more less forgiving mechanics than XI did. If you don't believe me, go to project1999 and I gurantee their roughly 2K+ pop will heavily disagree with you.

Here is just a few things.

No maps.
Corpse runs.
Far higher exp gains needed.
Far higher exp loss when dying.
Hell levels.
Racial exp negative bonuses.
Hybrid jobs having negative exp gains.
Longer respawns of raid encounters than FFXI.
NO instance content at all, FFXI had BCNMs etc...
Faction that you could destory and become KoS to guards etc or certain cities or already be KoS because of your race.
No auction house.

Did I get most of it? I'll edit maybe if I think of more.

[nekroturkey]

What makes you so sure the idea would have been criticized more?

The overwhelming negative criticism once it was announced.

Not that I care either way, I'm still looking forward to the mobile native app. It looks like it could be fun.

[Zarchery]

I'm so bored with this topic. Square Enix explicitly stated, in a very detailed post, why they were stopping development on the current, active game despite having actual numbers to tell how many people play it. Suddenly people think they're going to reverse their policy to create a new game based on assumptions of who might play it?

[Seillan]

Classic EQ was harder. Let me rephrase, both classic FFXI and classic EQ were easy. Classic EQ though had much more less forgiving mechanics than XI did. If you don't believe me, go to project1999 and I gurantee their roughly 2K+ pop will heavily disagree with you.

Here is just a few things.

No maps.
Corpse runs.
Far higher exp gains needed.
Far higher exp loss when dying.
Hell levels.
Racial exp negative bonuses.
Hybrid jobs having negative exp gains.
Longer respawns of raid encounters than FFXI.
NO instance content at all, FFXI had BCNMs etc...
Faction that you could destory and become KoS to guards etc or certain cities or already be KoS because of your race.
No auction house.

Did I get most of it? I'll edit maybe if I think of more.

Yeah, that's a great list and all, but you forgot the most important part of what I wrote (and really, the only reason I stated that it wasn't entirely fair to compare to those other games) -- In classic EQ, you could solo all the way up through the levels on most classes. It's not fast for most of them, but it's doable. Can you do that in classic FFXI? Not from my experience and/or understanding. I don't mind any of those extra challenges/time sinks that you mentioned, and I imagine most other "vet" mmorpg players that enjoyed the difficultly of yesteryear games would either. It's not being able to do anything solo that really sucks. That's the only thing that can and does single-handedly turn me off from playing a game -- even if I like everything else about it. That's what I was arguing, and the only thing I was arguing.

[Alhanelem]

Can you do that in classic FFXI? Not from my experience and/or understanding.You could, it just took forever. More forevers for some jobs than for others.

[Prrsha]

Some money is better then none. The server would be easy to make since it all contains OLD content (and SE said they are no longer making NEW content). It would just be a rollback of patches. The time and effort it would take would cost little money in the grand scope of things, so the server would quickly pay for itself in subs.

As for playing FFXI level synched currently to relive old days... to all whom have said that... THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE

Why you ask? The main part is that many characters now DO NOT have any low level jobs to even start a level synch party to begin with. You'd first need a change to the existing code allowing players to "Self level cap" themselves to a certain level.

The second flaw to this idea is that the exp rate per mob you kill is 500% what is WAS in the old days. We'd still have problems of people zooming to lvl 75 in no time (which gets pointless quick). If you happen to be a person who liked the old style of leveling, you'd reach cap too quick to really enjoy each zone.

[Roja323]

So to be the devils advocate...

What is it about classic FFXI that people miss?

1) Waiting for a dunes group for 4+ hours on a job that wasn't ideal?
2) Getting into said dunes group, just to realize the war is naked and has no sub and the whm instantly drops?
3) Spending months to get to 75, just to realize your not a sam, rdm, or brd and thus have no hope of ever getting into an elite merit party that gets maybe 2-3 per hour?
4) Joining a ls to build 1 person a relic/mythic and basically screw over the rest of the ls?


People say they miss classic ffxi but not a single thing in classic ffxi hasn't been made better/easier/more approachable with modern conveniences.

Anyone who says they miss the challenge...tell me why, even during the classic period were so many high end LS were doing stuff like the infamous salvage dupe that got SOOOO many people banned....If they enjoyed the challenge, shouldn't they have been avoiding things that speed up loot distribution? Or killing AV with exploits? Or using bots to claim land kings? Or using fish bots to make gil?

When i think back to classic FFXI the first happy time I remember is when they added level sync, and when they added abyssea, and suddenly all the less popular jobs could be leveled easily. People love to hate on abyssea, but that was the first time good loot became available to people who didnt want to spend months in a LS hoping it would drop, and they would win it.

[nekroturkey]

If they enjoyed the challenge, shouldn't they have been avoiding things that speed up loot distribution? Or killing AV with exploits? Or using bots to claim land kings? Or using fish bots to make gil?

There are always people looking to circumvent the system, even now. You said it yourself, the game's been made easier and more approachable, so why do people continue to use exploits? Why do people still buy gil, despite it being so easy to obtain? On that same note, if there was a way to instantly take a level 1 character to 99 with capped combat stats, some people would do it. If there was a way to get the best i119 gear from killing worms in Gustaberg's starting area, some people would do it.

There are always going to be people looking for the easiest way out.


1) Waiting for a dunes group for 4+ hours on a job that wasn't ideal?

That was your problem, you were waiting for a group when you should've tried making one yourself. As someone that took only melee jobs up to 75, the secret was asking everyone in your level range, even if their flag wasn't up. I'd start by asking mages, and if I got those, I'd start recruiting other melee jobs. Worked most of the time.

[detlef]

Some money is better then none. The server would be easy to make since it all contains OLD content (and SE said they are no longer making NEW content). It would just be a rollback of patches. The time and effort it would take would cost little money in the grand scope of things, so the server would quickly pay for itself in subs.There it is Plumbgame, here's someone who thinks it's easy to do.

[nekroturkey]

There it is Plumbgame, here's someone who thinks it's easy to do.

To be fair, no one knows how relatively easy or difficult it would be until Square gives the official word.

[Zarchery]

2005 and 2006 were the worst years of my life. Final Fantasy 11, and the many friends I had through the game back then, were just about the only thing that helped me hold on to sanity. Back then, I could play all day and I enjoyed it because it gave me something to do with my time. These days I'm so busy that many days even doing job points for an hour, or logging on for 20 minutes to do ROE objectives, is too boring or time consuming. Besides of which, all my friends are gone now.

We could roll back the technology, but it's not going to bring those old friends back. Neither will it bring back the good times I had with them helping me through a terrible two years of my life. And I really think that's what all the advocates of this idea want. To recapture their fond rose colored memories of the good old days. They don't want a video game. They want a time machine.

[nekroturkey]

2005 and 2006 were the worst years of my life. Final Fantasy 11, and the many friends I had through the game back then, were just about the only thing that helped me hold on to sanity. Back then, I could play all day and I enjoyed it because it gave me something to do with my time. These days I'm so busy that many days even doing job points for an hour, or logging on for 20 minutes to do ROE objectives, is too boring or time consuming. Besides of which, all my friends are gone now.

We could roll back the technology, but it's not going to bring those old friends back. Neither will it bring back the good times I had with them helping me through a terrible two years of my life. And I really think that's what all the advocates of this idea want. To recapture their fond rose colored memories of the good old days. They don't want a video game. They want a time machine.

I appreciate your candidness in the first part of your reply. But regarding the second part, you're making a sweeping generalization. Maybe that's what some people want, and more power to them if it is. If Square made a classic server, would it really affect you, or hinder your current experience?

[Zarchery]

If Square made a classic server, would it really affect you, or hinder your current experience?

No. I already said that several times.

[Rukio]

Well to put my 2 cents in, im all for a classic server. I think its has potential. I know id personally play on it, and I know plenty of others that if they knew about it would be all for it. But most of them have long since quit as have I. Not that the game still dosent have a fun factor, but its changed so much, its all about lvling fast and solo. But thats not what made me love it in the beginning, instead it was that it was so party orientated so you always met new people. Sure waiting for partys or making them yourself was a pain, but that never stoped me. And I miss my old dyna shell, that event was always something I looked forward too. And it was fun and sometime rather lol. But they changed everything instead. Thats why I think it would be a good idea to have at least 1 classic server, I want the group play back. I want to socialize with random people ill only know in or from a party. Sure it had some flaws but crap everyone always had something to do at least. Id be happy to try to get the word out get others personal imput, but unfortunately since u have to be active subscriber to post here idk how well that would work. Thankfully the free week brought me here so I could say my piece.

I love this game. It will always have a soft spot in my heart but as it progressed it just kept straying from the game I started and loved.

[Alhanelem]

I love this game. It will always have a soft spot in my heart but as it progressed it just kept straying from the game I started and loved. Sadly, it's just the nature of the beast. But if they didn't change and develop new things, even more people would lose interest over time due to the lack of new content. It also leaves you wondering where your $12.95 is going if you don't get new stuff now and then.

I often do miss parts of the early game experience, but it's largely the social component that drove my fun the most. Nothing can bring that back, not even a classic server.


We could roll back the technology, but it's not going to bring those old friends back. Neither will it bring back the good times I had with them helping me through a terrible two years of my life. And I really think that's what all the advocates of this idea want. To recapture their fond rose colored memories of the good old days. They don't want a video game. They want a time machine. This. The only way we can truly get those memories back is to time warp back and lose them so we can have them all over again.


would it really affect you, or hinder your current experience? I've explained this several times over, but yes, it would affect and hinder my current experience, unless it was a total failiure.

[nekroturkey]

Everquest progression server trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YOL9OjV-A4&feature=youtu.be


I've explained this several times over, but yes, it would affect and hinder my current experience, unless it was a total failiure.

Then several times you haven't made yourself clear. On the one hand, you say that no one would be interested, but then on the other hand, you say that it would divide the current population.

I can understand that you don't want a classic server to hinder your experience by dividing the current population, but if it would give people the chance to play the game how they want to play, why would you want to get in the way of that? Seems hypocritical in a way.

[Rubicant82]

All I see in this thread is a bunch of arguing back and forth.
The truth of the matter is that a "classic" server would not get enough subscriptions back to justify running it.
If you would like to play on a "classic" server do some digging online you will find what you are looking for.

[Evogolist]

Maybe I'm missing the whole point of a classic server, but what would exactly be the point? What's keeping people from playing the way that they choose to play? Sure, exp was buffed slightly, zones and some bc fight lvl caps were removed, stats were slightly altered, a few high lvl mobs were added to accommodate post lvl 75 parties, and jobs were either enhanced or nerfed, oh and the auction house is pretty much mostly dead, but in the end no one was forced to do anything.

So again I ask what would be the point of a classic server? Is it for pure nostalgia of the gameplay or the social factor? The gameplay hasn't changed all that much, except for SE turning on the easy mode switch and even then, that's only up to a certain extent of the game. Everything is still there, it's just that people chose the more popular play style. Did Abyssea kill party play? Sure, only because SE didn't put proper restrictions in place so everyone hopped on the alliance train, with most people leeching their way to 99. The old camps were still there waiting for a group of players to party up and lvl there, but once again people jumped on the alliance train and lvled their way to 99 via Abyssea and GoV. Starting a classic server, depending on how far back the server would go, would mean going back to a lot of the pre-QoL changes and if you remember the CoP days before the removal of the level caps on it's areas and content, that would mean going back to a time when people weren't willing to go back and repurchase old armor and weapons or help with old content because it was such a hassle. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm against the whole idea, it's just that SE opening a classic server and everyone starting and playing on it would almost be the same as deleting our current characters and starting over again with the only option to level being joining exp parties.

So again, what would be the whole point and reasoning behind it?

[Alhanelem]

Then several times you haven't made yourself clear. On the one hand, you say that no one would be interested, but then on the other hand, you say that it would divide the current population.One of those two things will happen. Either it will flop due to low interest and have no effect other than wasting development time and resources, or it will succeed and divide the population. Neither of those outcomes are favorable to me. Also: "No one" was hyperbole. It is common for us to say "no one" as hyperoble when we know it's not literally no one, but just an insignificant number instead.

I'd say I was pretty clear. On the one hand, is an unfaorable outcome to me. On the other hand is a different unfavorable outcome to me. I'm not sure what's confusing or unclear about that. The two statements don't conflict with each other.

[Prrsha]

Maybe I'm missing the whole point of a classic server, but what would exactly be the point? What's keeping people from playing the way that they choose to play? Sure, exp was buffed slightly, zones and some bc fight lvl caps were removed, stats were slightly altered, a few high lvl mobs were added to accommodate post lvl 75 parties, and jobs were either enhanced or nerfed, oh and the auction house is pretty much mostly dead, but in the end no one was forced to do anything.

So again I ask what would be the point of a classic server? Is it for pure nostalgia of the gameplay or the social factor? The gameplay hasn't changed all that much, except for SE turning on the easy mode switch and even then, that's only up to a certain extent of the game. Everything is still there, it's just that people chose the more popular play style. Did Abyssea kill party play? Sure, only because SE didn't put proper restrictions in place so everyone hopped on the alliance train, with most people leeching their way to 99. The old camps were still there waiting for a group of players to party up and lvl there, but once again people jumped on the alliance train and lvled their way to 99 via Abyssea and GoV. Starting a classic server, depending on how far back the server would go, would mean going back to a lot of the pre-QoL changes and if you remember the CoP days before the removal of the level caps on it's areas and content, that would mean going back to a time when people weren't willing to go back and repurchase old armor and weapons or help with old content because it was such a hassle. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm against the whole idea, it's just that SE opening a classic server and everyone starting and playing on it would almost be the same as deleting our current characters and starting over again with the only option to level being joining exp parties.

So again, what would be the whole point and reasoning behind it?

Maybe you didn't read my comment earlier explaining the dilemma:

As for playing FFXI level synched currently to relive old days... to all whom have said that... THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE

Why you ask? The main part is that many characters now DO NOT have any low level jobs to even start a level synch party to begin with. You'd first need a change to the existing code allowing players to "Self level cap" themselves to a certain level.

The second flaw to this idea is that the exp rate per mob you kill is 500% what is WAS in the old days. We'd still have problems of people zooming to lvl 75 in no time (which gets pointless quick). If you happen to be a person who liked the old style of leveling, you'd reach cap too quick to really enjoy each zone.

[Prrsha]

The two statements don't conflict with each other.

They appear to conflict to me.

[Prrsha]

All I see in this thread is a bunch of arguing back and forth.
The truth of the matter is that a "classic" server would not get enough subscriptions back to justify running it.
If you would like to play on a "classic" server do some digging online you will find what you are looking for.

Some people like myself would not like to break piracy rules. My wife wants to go to a private server after the trial is over. I cannot keep her from doing so as she can do as she wishes. It just saddens me that in order to join her (or many of my friends) I would have to take money away from SE and give it as a donation to keep said private servers running.

It's just my personal opinion on the matter but as time goes on and I drift away from FFXI as it is now, my options grow few.

The reason why I post this and come down hard on SE at times is that I love the company and wish it success but with every patch since WoTG they have done nothing but lose subs (many of which were my friends who liked the game how it was). Sure I can go to a private server but does this HELP SE or FFXI? Not in the slightest but opening a classic server, giving those who left a choice of playstyle (and more subs)... that would help FFXI and SE. If a classic server with extra subs can help keep the normal servers up in running with sub money... wouldn't that be a win for both sides?

[Prrsha]

waiting[/I] for a group when you should've tried making one yourself. As someone that took only melee jobs up to 75, the secret was asking everyone in your level range, even if their flag wasn't up. I'd start by asking mages, and if I got those, I'd start recruiting other melee jobs. Worked most of the time.

I agree. I leveled BST from 20-40 JUST in parties. How do most people ask me? Like you said above... I formed parties. Despite the stigma and misconception at the time that jug pets ate people's exp in parties, I was able to form parties in EVERY single time 30 mins or less... and 30 mins was the WORST case scenario.

If anything it was lack of a good interface to find parties... that was the problem. If your first name of your character was a Z instead of an A... your experience of finding a party with just a exp flag could have been a problem due to the nature of /sea all and what time (esp if it was peak) you were playing.

[Alhanelem]

They appear to conflict to me.
Well, you need to have your vision checked, then.

They describe two events that can occur. One or the other, but not both. Neither of which I'd particularly like to see. There is no conflict here.


The second flaw to this idea is that the exp rate per mob you kill is 500% what is WAS in the old days. We'd still have problems of people zooming to lvl 75 in no time (which gets pointless quick). If you happen to be a person who liked the old style of leveling, you'd reach cap too quick to really enjoy each zone. I don't know about you, but I never particularly required several hours to "enjoy each zone." The real enjoyment out of the overly slow leveling of the earlier days was the social experiences that were forged while doing so. Without that, I would have wanted it to be a LOT faster, even back then. There's also the fact that pretty much anyone playing this game that long is out of school and probably has a job. Slowing XP back down, whether it's on a classic server or rolling back all those changes, really wouldn't solve any problems.
The main audience for this game simply can't devote the same amount of time that they used to be able to. This is essentially the primary reason why leveling gets accelerated over a long period of time in MMOs. Even now we have a really long grind in Job Points. I've not one person asking for them to make them take longer, and lots of people wishing they'd speed it up (which they have). It takes 550 job points for each job to max out job points. If you're played every job to 99, that's 12100 job points total. Plenty of grinding for anyone who really loves it.


I agree. I leveled BST from 20-40 JUST in parties. How do most people ask me? Like you said above... I formed parties. Despite the stigma and misconception at the time that jug pets ate people's exp in parties, I was able to form parties in EVERY single time 30 mins or less... and 30 mins was the WORST case scenario.You make it sound easier than it was. I played PUP and SMN, whether or not I formed the party, 30 mins was a FAST party setup in the old days. Usually it was at least an hour. The stigma associated with the jobs at the time was too strong and few were willing to play with them. =\

[Bluestar2kx]

Some people like myself would not like to break piracy rules. My wife wants to go to a private server after the trial is over. I cannot keep her from doing so as she can do as she wishes. It just saddens me that in order to join her (or many of my friends) I would have to take money away from SE and give it as a donation to keep said private servers running.

It's just my personal opinion on the matter but as time goes on and I drift away from FFXI as it is now, my options grow few.

The reason why I post this and come down hard on SE at times is that I love the company and wish it success but with every patch since WoTG they have done nothing but lose subs (many of which were my friends who liked the game how it was). Sure I can go to a private server but does this HELP SE or FFXI? Not in the slightest but opening a classic server, giving those who left a choice of playstyle (and more subs)... that would help FFXI and SE. If a classic server with extra subs can help keep the normal servers up in running with sub money... wouldn't that be a win for both sides?

Why does your wife want to goto a private server?
That seems rather odd, unless she played in 2003 or 4 and didn't like it, but somehow wants that over this?? I don't get it.

I pulled my partner in 2 years ago and she adores FFXI. Granted, she doesn't get to play it much more then me these days. As I point out below, times change for many.

I think the problem is, we want to stay with FFXI, but can't find reason to, so we make ourselves try to find one, if FFXI doesn't do it for you, then finding ways to make yourself play is not going to help you love the game, it's going to push you further from it no?

Personally, I think SE has done pretty well with FFXI overall. We got a few hard spots, and I completely dislike aby, I don't see a issue with adoulin, though i think it would have been easier to just increase the level requirement rather then a gear level thing. But I can see why they did it that way. And honestly, I think that reason partly stems from players demands in this thread: If you have to level to 119, your a goddess in everything non-adoulin. If you have to level to 99 and wear 119 gear, godhood is optional in everything. (obviously except adoulin stuff, but I think you get my point)

Everyone saying a classic server might get sub money for FFXI.
Yes it might. But it would have to be A LOT of money to get a full team on each server type to keep things going smoothly (assuming SE could keep developing for it) and there's no money for that. I guess the only option to keep that from being an issue would be a frozen in time server from the get go (rather then one that freezes later as I say below) but how long will that keep those players?

And the question becomes then: Where in time do we freeze FFXI?
At launch? 75 update? Chains? When they added dynamis? Sky? I've not read every page here, And not many have said much specifically in others other then pre-aby, but what is the consensus for when this server should occur in the update history? Can the players who want this even get a consensus on this? How much of the lore of Vana'diel are you willing to give up to be perpetually stuck at 75? (or 70 if you go back to early)

EQ's classic is based off launch year.
For FFXI that would cut out the lv 75 update and everything that came with it and after it. Including sky and dynamis. (let's not even get into the JP launch day)
My theory is this server would be frozen wherever the date is picked, and it will never leave there. If true, could you sacrifice those things?



They appear to conflict to me.

Perception is an odd thing sometimes isn't it?

None of his statements conflicted each other, they each occupy one side of the fence.
Either. Or. Based off the information available at this time, those are the only realistic outcomes.

FFXI has a small development team going atm, if you have to create an entirely new server, possibly going back through decades of updates to freeze the data at a specific point in time that players want, this is going to take a lot of time, a lot of people, and it's going to cut into the main servers activities which is not favourable to the majority who don't want to be on this time aged server, and that will cause more problems. On top of the fact that come november, this server would be frozen in time as FFXI dev kits go offline forever, and nothing frozen in time, lasts forever, it will get boring for people if SE was even able to make it.

On the other end, lets say it is popular at launch, and more people move to it, what's going to happen to the main servers?

Exactly what is happening now that everyone has been complaining about for years now: Lack of population! This server would only amplify existing problems on top of the update issues, oh sure, that server "might" get enough people to make it a none issue, but the question still remains: How long will it last? And what will happen to those on the main servers? Is this just a **** them kind of thing? they should come to us?

Given I don't think most people here remember how hellish FFXI was in it's first few years, and most veterans who remember that game, I doubt have a 1/10th of the playtime they did back then. I certainly don't, and I didn't mind the grind or difficulty, even though I was a taru at the time who was woefully misunderstood to be weak and useless as melee. But I'm not 19 at moms house anymore. I have kids to take care of, a house to tend to, my actual time actually playing ffxi vs sitting there afk is a few hours per day, not whole days at a time. Most of the FFXI population of veterans who play or not, are likely much the same way.

Sure, the memories are some of the best things I have from those days. I made wonderful friends, helped pave the way for taru melees by embarrassing elvaans, and spent enough time in the chair to kill my back for over half a decade to come. But those days are gone, as are the playstyles those days favoured, finding a group like that won't be nearly as great as it was then.

As a player who still plays ages old games, probably titles older then a 1/3rd of FFXIV's current playerbase, going back isn't as great as what once was that first time. It never can be.



Maybe I'm missing the whole point of a classic server, but what would exactly be the point? What's keeping people from playing the way that they choose to play? Sure, exp was buffed slightly, zones and some bc fight lvl caps were removed, stats were slightly altered, a few high lvl mobs were added to accommodate post lvl 75 parties, and jobs were either enhanced or nerfed, oh and the auction house is pretty much mostly dead, but in the end no one was forced to do anything.

So again I ask what would be the point of a classic server?

The point people are arguing over a classic server is authenticity.

They don't want to deal with the exp increases, the exp requirement decrease, the death toss decrease, damage changes, etc... etc... etc... that have all changed dramatically in the last decade. Things that can't be replicated to a reasonable degree acceptable to these players.

I guess the equivalent that popped into my head (despite the fact I know nothing about cars) is it's like putting the outer shell of a ferrari over a honda civic.
You get the look on the outside, but you get nothing else genuine, it's still the same thing it was when you sit down.

I guess that's how they feel.
But the odds of this happening is remote.
As of yet, there's not enough support, and SE is cutting development that requires the dev kits in november, and this would require those kits. If SE wasn't this might stand a better chance, slightly above remote, but as things stand now, I just don't see it happening to be anything to worry about.

If people want to "relive the glory days" they'll have to make a new character, and kill themselves every other mob to balance exp incomes and account for the old days grinding pattern. But they would have to make their own gear, the AH carries very little for pre-75 gear, so least that would be genuine.

[bungiefanNA]

The EXP rate is only 200% of what it was at launch (Even Match = 100 EXP solo, now it is 200 EXP solo), if you use no EXP boosting items that have come out. You can hit about 750% of original EXP rate if you use all the boosts. You can choose to still level slowly by not using rings, Records of Eminence, Trust, or Fields/Grounds of Valor, however, the economy for low level equipments and items is pretty much non-existant, so you won't have much gil without getting it from Records of Eminence or Valor books. Nothing is stopping you from ignoring the new systems and playing the classic way, but the player base overall doesn't resist the temptation to play using the systems that have been provided, and groups that try to play classic eventually fall apart as individual members start using the QoL options and speed ahead of the group. Ways to make money and do some content have also changed, as classic Dynamis no longer exists, so you definitely cannot play that if that was your thing.

Level Sync was an early method to address this disparity of levels between friends, but is not really needed much anymore since Trust came out on top of all the other changes.

I can't imagine very many current players would ditch the QoL changes to go to a server that has them disabled, given how few resist using the systems. That means it would have to bring back old players, which means you would have to find them to target them with advertisements, and you'd have to get through their perception that they don't like the way the game has been lately, if that is why they left.

It's hard to argue for the dev team to spend any of their limited time trying to create a server with a different environment, when they could improve the game for the remaining players, rather than try for the possibility of bringing back old players, and they have even stated their priorities now aren't growing the game population, but for cutting expenses of operating the game. That's the argument against a classic server.

Also, as has been said, where would players draw the line. Most old vets I know that quit can't be bothered to care if they were asked, saying they'd have to be paid to reinstall the game. JP launch in 2002, things were broken. Weaponskills didn't exist the first month, neither did NMs or the Auction House. The nature of MMORPGs is that they constantly change. Trying to lock them in place is against the whole idea of paying for a game like this, as you are paying for the experience to always be different. If you do a progression server, where do you start? The game wasn't even in English for the first 18 months. How fast do you go through content updates? Are players going to jump ship again when you reach certain updates? How are you going to keep the game interesting if you stop updates on a server? Does the code even exist in backups to revert back to such a state? Will it require a different version of the client to connect to such a server? If it does, what will it break if you have a friends list with people on the standard servers?

Are all of these dependencies and considerations worth the risk of investment, or letting someone else manage the IP and possibly damage its value?

[Prrsha]

Why does your wife want to goto a private server?
That seems rather odd, unless she played in 2003 or 4 and didn't like it, but somehow wants that over this?? I don't get it.

I pulled my partner in 2 years ago and she adores FFXI. Granted, she doesn't get to play it much more then me these days. As I point out below, times change for many.

She shares the same viewpoint as me. We even met for the 1st time in game so FFXI does have a lot of meaning to us. The only view point we don't really share is about piracy.

As for when I started... I started as an importer several months after the game came out. I beta tested on the Cactaur server, then moved to Ragnarok when the game went NA retail for the PC for 3 months. After hearing that ClanBob was on the Phoenix server, I moved to that one. My IRL friend did the same. He no longer plays because he as well shares the same opinions about the changes to the game. I played FFXI actively until around Abyssea where I kept my account active but did only casual things due do some IRL health issues which bogged me down for 2 years (however I still logged in often to try new content)... then after that I was active again... I made a new account from a mule and leveled it for the heck of it... Got quickly to 99 in just about all jobs... did abbysea and am currently doing the new content. I only do it for the sake of trying it, as the new end game stuff gets old for me quick... it's just not my playstyle now. Prrsha I keep around as I formed MithraPride with her on Phoenix. I find me logging on to her to get in touch with old friends that happen to check POL messages. I mostly just hang around old zones with her and fish... enjoy the scenery and such. My other character I do newer content with. Prrsha has no jobs above level 75. I wanted to keep her that way to still play old zones how they were... but I cannot play CoP "classic" with her anymore as many zones are above her current level if I wish to relive them with others the classic way... I'd have to make a new character, which costs money and paying for my wife's account and my own is enough as it is. I still plan to play FFXI at least until the new content is over. After that, I don't know what I will do. If they keep the current account prices as they are, it seems like too much money to justify playing a game with no new content (and I miss many of my friends and don't like the current gameplay style of soloing old content). My wife may convince me in the future to join a private server but as for now, no. My friends keep tugging at me however, so they may win out in the end. I have yet to take a good look at Elder Scrolls online... I helped beta many Bethsoft games so I may check it out and it may be my new home... who knows...

As for my wife she started playing FFXI around 2006. She met me on FFXI in 2007. She played until abby then leveled up to around 80, then quit the game. She watches me play and she came back for the free log-in campaign. She plans to quit after it is over and join a private server because she does not like what the game has become and sees nothing wrong with playing on a private server.

[Prrsha]

I can't imagine very many current players would ditch the QoL changes to go to a server that has them disabled, given how few resist using the systems. That means it would have to bring back old players, which means you would have to find them to target them with advertisements, and you'd have to get through their perception that they don't like the way the game has been lately, if that is why they left.


Imagine it. There is a vast number of players who think the game way who left FFXI. Since I keep in touch through various means with many of them, I know many of their opinions. A quick look at many forums unrelated to FFXI (or even a private one) and you will see many like minded individuals. Just because they no longer are active doesn't mean they are unwilling to return to the game they loved if they had an option of a classic server. They would gladly give up the QoL (as they have played in the past without it), so that is not really an issue to them. What drew them to the game was oddly enough the old style level up "grind" as many of you call it. To one person it is a "grind"... to another it is a long fun journey that they can no longer relive due to the changes that the game underwent (not to mention the broken economy that speed leveling created... and removal of the 75 cap, lifting of CoP caps...) brought that around as well.

This matter would come to a complete and simple conclusion if SE took one simple act:

Send an e-mail to old retired players with a poll for a classic server. It would cost them NEXT to NOTHING. They would know in a short time if there is an interest in such a server (it has worked in many other MMORPGs) as the OP points out so why not here?

SE would know the risk/reward scenario of such an endeavor and everyone could quickly shut up about the matter on both sides. SE could make the call and poof... conclusion to this thread.

All I am asking for all at the very least, is a plea for SE to poll their retired players.

Simple as that... and that is how simple this thread needs to be. End of my comments on this subject (as just about all I can discuss on the subject has been run over with a fine tooth comb). If anyone wants to address my comments or debate them, I will be happy to discuss however, but please read over my previous comments so I don't have to repeat myself if a comment is directed at me. Thank you. :3

[bungiefanNA]

With how many years it has been, how many of those old players still have the same email account? How many would notice if it got stuck in their spam filter? SE is horrible at advertising their online games outside Japan.

[bazookatooth]

As for playing FFXI level synched currently to relive old days... to all whom have said that... THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE

Why you ask? The main part is that many characters now DO NOT have any low level jobs to even start a level synch party to begin with. You'd first need a change to the existing code allowing players to "Self level cap" themselves to a certain level.


Two things:

A) That sounds exactly like old ffxi. No one with the jobs you need to form a party. You're already living the dream. You just don't know it.

B) If they made a classic server, you would have to start a new character anyways. So actually, everyone would have all low level jobs. Rolling back all your gear etc. would be a ridiculous request. They MIGHT have the old patch data still, but I guarantee they don't have your old player data.

Knowing that, why don't all you guys just start a new character now and save the trouble?

[bungiefanNA]

He said he dind't want to have to pay the money for a new character, while keeping his current one.

[Hellkat]

With how many years it has been, how many of those old players still have the same email account? How many would notice if it got stuck in their spam filter? SE is horrible at advertising their online games outside Japan.

I got the return to Vana'diel campaign e-mail ok. It's why I came back to try it.

[Prrsha]

Great post, and I agree with you on many things.

I really liked a lot of things about the original game, it was more challenging and dangerous, and it felt like a real life/death perilous adventure.

I'm enjoying FFXI in 2015 a lot too, obviously it is easier and has a lot of QOL things that cut down on legwork, which is nice. I'm enjoying being able to build RME which was almost impossible for me under the old system.

I actually spoke to some of my Facebook friends about this today, theres around twenty of them who are former FFXI players, who played hard from 2004~2011 and then quit for different reasons. We talked about a retro server and 8 of them said they would re-subscribe to play a 2008 Server, they specified that campaign battles must be included.

So on that casual tiny poll, we got an 8/20 people would re-sub just for the Retro Server.

I'm all for it too, but I would keep my current main character on this 2015 server, and start a new character on the Retro Server. Who knows, I might end up deleting my main and going Full Retro, lol.

Do I think SE will make one? No.

Thank you for your kind comment. I think the problem with most people against the idea (those who say people wouldn't return) is that many of those people (perhaps?) don't keep in touch with their former friends who left in that era? I am just amazed at how many quit the game over the changes... not amazed at the reason, just at the number. One could only guess the total number that "silent majority/minority" is but it wouldn't help SE to at least test the waters with an e-mail poll.

Like Hellkat posted above, I got a return to Vanadiel for a week free notice. Funny how I got one though as my account is active. I saw 2 old LS members join the campaign over this week. They said they got the e-mail too. My filter didn't see it as junk (I use Hotmail).

As for your comment, I have to agree. SE will most likely not make a classic server if they don't poll the public. It has been the trend in other MMORPGs to poll the old playerbase that left, if they are interested in one. If SE sees dollar signs by the response, it will go over well I'd imagine and they'd work toward one. One also must remember that SE's age old system of advertising the game via word of mouth in saaay 2004, is a lot different now. Now we have facebook and player rings that can quickly spread information to large groups of people in a small amount of time. Word of mouth spreads much faster now...

[Prrsha]

Level Sync was an early method to address this disparity of levels between friends, but is not really needed much anymore since Trust came out on top of all the other changes.


This... the trusts. While I agree it is a nice system for those who are alone and choose to play alone, it is just another example how the QoL effects the old game mechanics. Why find a friend and duo or trio or even form a party when you can just summon expendable NPCs that you don't even need to really level?

It makes finding people who wish to play old style who are new to the game when they have an easy button stamped on older content. It is very hard to find people willing (currently) to do old content the old way when they first don't have the tools (self level cap) and don't have the numbers (all the players who left due to the changes away from a party leveling system). A server to gather all of those people in one area would massively help the effort and bring back players who wouldn't play currently otherwise, if they had an option for this.

This server would in no way effect other players who wanted to play the current playstyle as those servers would continue to exist (like they do in other MMORPGs). If the server gives SE money to help the current servers, that means more dev money for everyone. I just hope they don't toss it and use it to finance other games like 14. I don't mind 14, I just don't like the practice of milking a game of its money, neglecting it and tossing potential content to other games (and expecting you to pay the same fee while you are at it).

[bazookatooth]

He said he dind't want to have to pay the money for a new character, while keeping his current one.

He can always stop paying for his old character and not play it. If he moves to a classic server, he'll have to make the same decision anyways. Let's be real here though. It's only $1 a month for another character. He doesn't have to make a whole separate account.


This... the trusts. While I agree it is a nice system for those who are alone and choose to play alone, it is just another example how the QoL effects the old game mechanics. Why find a friend and duo or trio or even form a party when you can just summon expendable NPCs that you don't even need to really level?

It makes finding people who wish to play old style who are new to the game when they have an easy button stamped on older content. It is very hard to find people willing (currently) to do old content the old way when they first don't have the tools (self level cap) and don't have the numbers (all the players who left due to the changes away from a party leveling system). A server to gather all of those people in one area would massively help the effort and bring back players who wouldn't play currently otherwise, if they had an option for this.

This server would in no way effect other players who wanted to play the current playstyle as those servers would continue to exist (like they do in other MMORPGs). If the server gives SE money to help the current servers, that means more dev money for everyone. I just hope they don't toss it and use it to finance other games like 14. I don't mind 14, I just don't like the practice of milking a game of its money, neglecting it and tossing potential content to other games (and expecting you to pay the same fee while you are at it).

You could just invite everyone who wants to play like you to one server now instead of waiting for a new server that probably won't come.

[Prrsha]

You could just invite everyone who wants to play like you to one server now instead of waiting for a new server that probably won't come.

Read my above post on why that is not possible. The #1 reason is that most if not all of the people I know have jobs waaay past the CoP era level cap. Because of that, we cannot level synch down to the correct level. If they added a command like /synch Prrsha 30, I could become level 30 and do older content like the beginning CoP with others, as it stands now, no such system exists.

Once again, read my above posts before replying to them, thank you.

[Alhanelem]

If they added a command like /synch Prrsha 30, I could become level 30 and do older content like the beginning CoP with others, as it stands now, no such system exists.I still don't see the value in this because
1) Most of us have already completed content like CoP etc. If you want to do those things again you'd have to start a new character anyway, because you can't uncomplete your progress. If you're helping someone else who's just doing it for the first time, you can sync to their level. Otherwise, why would you want to do it again?
2) Doing old content again isn't the same as when you did it the first time. It just isn't, whether you're at the level it was originally created for or not. It's the social experiences that made the first time what it was, and nothing can bring that back. E.g. I've done every avatar fight multiple times for all the rewards. They were all fun the first couple times. But by the time I was done, it was becoming a tiresome task. I know few people who can repeat the same thing more times than that and still find it fun.
3)I'm unable to understand what the difference is between killing things at level X vs killing things at level Y as long as the targets are appropriate for whatever level you are. People who don't want to grow more powerful over time are a tiny minority. The sense of progression is what keeps people playing an MMO. Fighting that sense, well, it just doesn't make sense.
4) I mentioned this before but it bears repeating, if you really want to do old content, just start a new character. The only valid argument I can find against this is "I don't want to pay the extra fee." If you don't want to do it because you wouldn't have all those convenience features unlocked, then congratulations, you're a poor candidate to gain enjoyment out of a classic server or an arbitrary level setting feature in the first place. A classic server wouldn't have those QOL features, and it would take work the devs can't or won't put in to combine old game with new QOL features.


A server to gather all of those people in one area would massively help the effort and bring back players who wouldn't play currently otherwise, if they had an option for this.If this actually happened, it would potentially destroy the game for people who enjoy it the way it is. The population is too small, not enough players would come back / new players come in to sustain both. Most of the population on the server would be current player transfers. But this is a waste of time, just repeating everything that's already been said.

Then there's the problem of the content never changing. People will get bored and quit eventually. This obviously will happen whether such a server/feature is implemented or not.

Short of SE handing a license to the community to keep the game alive (Which I'm not sure how we'd do it because I'm sure no member of the community has a working ps2 dev kit), the future of the game, classic server or no, is locked in.

And you know what else is locked in? Everyone's opinions on this issue. I don't know why this thread goes on when everyone's essentially made their mind up. Nobody is convincing anyone of anything. In fact as I write this last sentence, I almost don't know why I bothered to post. It will probably be my last because I don't know how much longer my forum account will remain active. Everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath; everyone also needs to realize that this simply isn't going to happen, whether everyone wants it or not.

[bungiefanNA]

I do actually know some PS2 FFXI players with PS2 dev kits, that post to a forum on the dealing in developing homebrew software for the PSX (PS1, PS2, PS3, PS4) Scene. They would not have sold them to SquareEnix for any amount of money. There's maybe 10 of them, which is still a puny number of systems to handle gradual hardware failure. Some defunct developers have broken contract and auctioned off their development kits instead of returning them to Sony when they went under, and some individuals have had luck in obtaining some of those units, primarily in Europe.

However, it is unlikely that SE would give out their development software/tools/code to individuals like that, when it's in their interest to protect their IP for future profit.

[Zarchery]

And you know what else is locked in? Everyone's opinions on this issue. I don't know why this thread goes on when everyone's essentially made their mind up. Nobody is convincing anyone of anything. In fact as I write this last sentence, I almost don't know why I bothered to post. It will probably be my last because I don't know how much longer my forum account will remain active. Everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath; everyone also needs to realize that this simply isn't going to happen, whether everyone wants it or not.

Discussion of virtually every topic is like this. Anyone with a strong opinion will usually just become more entrenched in their own view when an opponent tries to change it. It's a lot more about swaying undecided third parties. In some cases, such as politics, debate actually becomes more about energizing the people on your side to take action and vote. This American Life (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/555/the-incredible-rarity-of-changing-your-mind) did an interesting story about this last month.

[bazookatooth]

Read my above post on why that is not possible. The #1 reason is that most if not all of the people I know have jobs waaay past the CoP era level cap. Because of that, we cannot level synch down to the correct level. If they added a command like /synch Prrsha 30, I could become level 30 and do older content like the beginning CoP with others, as it stands now, no such system exists.

Once again, read my above posts before replying to them, thank you.

So start new characters. That's what you will have to do on a classic server anyways.

[kaerin]

I agree. Nothing is stopping us from making new characters and playing them at 75 cap. And I joined an LS that is doing this, and made a new character, and now we have like 6 or 7 people in the LS lol. I'm pretty excited about it.