Dragoon Shortcomings

[cengeal]

This is a short list of things I have found to be frustrating on DRG since coming back. I understand other people will have views as to why these things should maybe not be adjusted, and they are welcome to their view. I know a lot of these issues have been visited in previous threads, but this is really just everything merged into a single nutshell that bothers me the most about my favorite job.

First, lower the recast of Call Wyvern. I personally think I do a great job at keeping Soryu alive. I manage to keep him alive during AA fights, WKR reives, etc by constantly attending to him and watching his hp. The problem is, when you die, the wyvern goes bye bye. If you're lucky, the timer is ready. However, most of the time you won't be, then you're basically a neutered puppy until you can resummon the wyvern. This doesn't happen because I suck or don't know what I'm doing, it happens because you can't do much when you get 1 shot. A simple solution is to introduce a pet item that allows you to call wyvern without depleting the Job Ability. The better solution is to actually reduce the recast timer to maybe ten minutes. After weakness wears off the timer would be 5-7 minutes, which is still annoying, but easier to deal with than an outrageous 15 minutes.

Second, Drakesbane. I feel insulted this weaponskill was not adjusted during the major weaponskill revamp. It seems like it was intentionally not adjusted. Even with critical hit rate +20%, I found Stardiver outperforming it on fodder monsters. Also concerning Drakes is the compatibility with Stardiver. At first glance, it appears Stardiver was implemented to enhance Drakesbane with the critical hit evasion reduction. So then, why do these two not skillchain together? That just does not make sense to me. For anybody who is going to refute the need to address this, please do not use Ryunohige owners being too powerful as a defense, as they makeup a small portion of the DRG population.

Third, there's the issue of Jump not serving a purpose when your wyvern is out (and it should always be out). I will leave High Jump off this list because it does have the use of shedding enmity when Super Jump is down. Because Spirit Jump has wyvern presence bonuses, Jump is practically useless when the wyvern is out. Any bonus or perk would help. Maybe a stun effect, a drain effect, chance to reduce enemy's critical hit evasion, there are really numerous ways to make Jump relevant.

I firmly believe that all of these issues need to be addressed and adjusted. Ever since I've played DRG I've always felt it was the neglected child, and because of that it was never able to be appreciated the same way the golden child is.

[Martel]

Agreed on all counts.

For call wyvern, if they don't wanna reduce the recast, they could have the wyvern automatically come back when you're raised after death.(assuming the wyvern was present when the DRG died) Seeing as the DRG dying is more the issue than the wyvern dropping. Although this would probably be harder to code, so take the easy way out and just lower the recast. <,<

Drakes, so much rage and sadness. Seeing it ignored in the ws adjustments was really disappointing. I'd love to see a good drakes buff. Including a change to SC properties.(lvl3 light please~)

Jump, and imo high jump are both pretty pointless atm. Tanking has made a come back, but even now there very little to no need to ever drop enmity. DMG enmity is so weak now, that DD's can hardly keep hate off mages, much less a tank. Hardly need to reduce enmity. <,< So I still see High Jump as a waste of a jump recast when you could have soul jumped.

Solution. Split the jump recasts already. And no, you don't need to nerf recasts to do that. Having 4 usable jumps will not break the game. Nor will it push DRG into the top DD slot, or anything of the sort. It would just be nice if there was actually a reason for jump and high jump to exist now. And you know, a use for the metric tons of jump enhancing gear SE keeps adding. Most of which doesn't freaking work on spirit/soul jump. -.-;

[Baltzar]

This doesn't happen because I suck or don't know what I'm doing, it happens because you can't do much when you get 1 shot.
This is the fundamental problem, and it doesn't concern drg only but all melees, as we can see with all the /shout asking for a lot of things but melees.
Ranged DD have the big advantage of, well, attacking from far. Melees don't have anything to compensate.

Most MMO don't have this problem because they use a lot of attack pattern targeted to ranged/mages, like attacks that only hit players that are far away (even if it does break a little the idea of being a ranged dd in the first place).
It's a shame but we need something ridiculous like a big boost to the hp, magic defence and/or magic evasion of all melees.
Or, if we think about dragoon only, give us some mean to spam super jump to avoid aoe, or give us far more defensive/healing ability with /mage.

The balance of this game has always been trash, especially this aspect, but since they're planning a new release with the "native app" from Nexon, they need to improve it and the best way to do it is to do it now with the current game.
Crappy balance was more or less ok in the past because of novelty or stuff, but now people don't like to lose time, so they don't like to level up a class and learn hours later that said class is useless, thus people hate lack of balance. The native app is doomed to fail if they don't improve the balance drastically.

They can reduce the recast of Call wyvern all they want, they may even remove it completely, it won't change the fact that melees sucks and die all the time.

[Ophannus]

It would have been cool if Spirit Surge could be used without a Wyvern, but doing so would summon a Wyvern in a powered up state for 60 seconds, keeping in line that Spirit Surge is an SP ability. Back before we got Fly High, the prototype we got was called Rouse Wyvern which made the Wyvern invincible to all damage, powered up its stats and attack speed, and reduced Smiting/Restoring breaths to 10 seconds and strengthened them. Seeing as how if Call Wyvern is down and our Wyvern is dead, we're in deep trouble, Spirit Surge having a secondary purpose would be welcomed. Not only would this idea prevent us neglecting our Wyvern's survivability (if the timer was 5min recast, nobody would care about Spirit Link or Steady Wing) but allow us to get *SOME* use out of Spirit Surge when our wyvern is dead. Also, since the secondary effect of Spirit Surge (when no wyvern is present) would be the same as Rouse Wyvern, it would ensure for 60 seconds our Wyvern is unkillable, which would be amazzzzzzzing for certain fights. It would also be cool to have a branching-use SP ability that's properties depend on if the wyvern is present or not. If wyvern is present, the wyvern's strenght is added to our own, if the wyvern is KO'd, our strength is added to the Wyvern(by summonming it back, and with 60sec of enhanced strength).

Simply lowering the recast would invalidate all the buffs we got to Wyvern over the last 3 years and would likely necessitate them nerfing their HP, Def, Mag.Def, Evasion, doubling the recast of Spirit Surge and halving its strength(basically quartering its effectivness), removing wyverns' -40% damage taken, and reducing Steady Wing back to its original potency which was 25% stoneskin not 33%.

Instead of simply lowering the recast and subsequently nerfing every survivability bonus they gave to them, I would rather them make Spirit Surge have an alternative use of a "Deus Ex Automata" for Dragoons, albeit on 60min timer so it can't be abused. This would give us a much needed 'second chance' at recalling our Wyvern when it counts, at the cost of an SP ability, but with an added bonus of 60 seconds of being impervious to damage -- assuring its survival.


High Jump has its uses for sure, and I've used it countless times to shed hate in small parties of 6 doing content with a PLD. That 75% hate shed comes in handy when Super Jump is down.

Jump needs some kind of bonus, though technically it has a higher base damage than Spirit Jump. If you have Ryunohige and not worried about TP, technically Jump is stronger than Spirit Jump due to the VIT bonus, however the extra TP is almost ALWAYS worth it. One small change that could make Jump useful again is giving it a short 1second Stun effect. There are 4 'Knight' style jobs in FFXI. PLD DRK SAM DRG. Each of these have a 'Killer' trait and a 'Circle' ability. In addition, 3 out of the 4 also have a 'bash' or an instant ability that deals a small amount of damage and stuns. DRG does not have a stun 'bash' ability. Why not add a short 1s stun to Jump? That would make DRG decide to use Jump to stun a spell or TP move when it's up, giving it very good utility in certain fights, and Spirit Jump can be used for damage/TP. Or, maybe make Jump steal 25% of the damage it deals as HP, making it useful as a quick emergency heal and would fit in line with DRG's 'lancet/lancer' ability from previous FF games. In fact, make it a job point like you guys did for Mug. Every upgrade, 2.5% of the damage dealt is converted into HP, so 25% when capped out. At least draining a few hundred points of HP every 50 seconds would make it somewhat useful I suppose...though still not as useful as if the recasts were simply split...

[Grekumah]

We were able to collect some answers for two of your suggestions.

- Jump and Call Wyvern
We currently have no plans to make adjustments in this direction as it'll move away from the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern.

- Drakesbane
The Drakesbane weapon skill isn't meant to be used in a skillchain with Stardiver, therefore we will not be making any adjustments with the premise of skillchains in mind.

[Glamdring]

We were able to collect some answers for two of your suggestions.

- Jump and Call Wyvern
We currently have no plans to make adjustments in this direction as it'll move away from the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern.

well that's stupid. while I have no particular feelings on the Jump request Call Wyvern has a tremendous argument in its favor and you just used it to deny the need, "the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern." Wyverns are not durable, I don't recall them EVER being durable. and as you just stated without them dragoon is not strong. an update to Call Wyvern or a dragoon version of Deus Ex would go a long way to making this job party viable in end-game. Because this position statement, coupled with the timetable for ending support for FFXI has just signed the death warrant of dragoon's viability as an end-game contributor, and at the actual end of the game as well. I understand that he Devs may feel dragoon is powerfull enough as it is, but with all due respect the devs' feelings on the subject mean nothing, because they aren't getting dragoon any party love, and pretty much the entire reason for this is the (valid) public perception that without a wyvern dragoons are next to useless and that a wyvern usually won't live more than 2 minutes in end-game.

so, perchance the Devs could come on here and explain how that perception is wrong or that dragoons ARE in fact sought after for end-game content? because honestly, with all of us in the forum as direct observers of the opposite in action we'd really like to know how we are wrong.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

well that's stupid. while I have no particular feelings on the Jump request Call Wyvern has a tremendous argument in its favor and you just used it to deny the need, "the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern." Wyverns are not durable, I don't recall them EVER being durable. and as you just stated without them dragoon is not strong. an update to Call Wyvern or a dragoon version of Deus Ex would go a long way to making this job party viable in end-game. Because this position statement, coupled with the timetable for ending support for FFXI has just signed the death warrant of dragoon's viability as an end-game contributor, and at the actual end of the game as well. I understand that he Devs may feel dragoon is powerfull enough as it is, but with all due respect the devs' feelings on the subject mean nothing, because they aren't getting dragoon any party love, and pretty much the entire reason for this is the (valid) public perception that without a wyvern dragoons are next to useless and that a wyvern usually won't live more than 2 minutes in end-game.

so, perchance the Devs could come on here and explain how that perception is wrong or that dragoons ARE in fact sought after for end-game content? because honestly, with all of us in the forum as direct observers of the opposite in action we'd really like to know how we are wrong.

Sounds like they want drg to be more of a non-pet based job with their statement and calling the pet is just an optional ability to call forth and if i'm not mistaken thats how they first made dragons in the ffxiv game? Soo drg isn't a drg without a pet wyvern it's just another type of job entirely then or a drg isn't a drg without having a highly functional stable pet that can take high amounts of dmg thrown at it even thrown at it rapidly countless times...:confused:

Well have at it with the contributes to this post>:-) :cool:

[Glamdring]

YYB, here's the thing, I tend to think when developing jobs for balance they do an equation where all jobs are to add up to 1000 points +/- 50 points-note the point numbers are arbitrary, for all I know the actual total for a naked 99 is supposed to 33,745 +/-2,213. on that scale they use a set of values for different aspects of the job like durability, DPS, buffing, debuffing, healing, etc.; somehow sub-jobs are factored into that as well. then potential yield assuming 100% efficiency on your button mashing is used for all traits to achieve an aggregate score for a naked player. once they have THAT within tolerances they start in with gear combinations to see that proportionally all jobs maintain within the same range up to top tier equipment (although I believe we have all seen clearly there is some error in their methodology for that gear evaluation). But that methodology is severely inadequate when a portion of that yield is based on a pet and I don't think they have a clue how to get their equation to balance.

with dragoon it's magnified even over the other pet jobs because of the extremely limited control of the pet by the player, i.e. the pet will only attack when the player does, cannot be forcibly disengaged to heal outside combat range, does not self heal and yes, has extremely limited tools for the player to heal it coupled with the longest recall time of all pet jobs. and while healing breath-especially with gear-is some of the best healing in the game offensive output is severely lacking from the pet, the ability to take a hit and now with the limited hate for damage inflicted the wyvern is likely to take hate by virtue of that HB use when it lacks the defense to cope with the consequences of the hate. it's unrealistic to expect the player to only use HB when Superjump is up as well as Spirit Link because if they hold for that they are not fulfilling their role in the party, even soloing it is lacking in performance because of that.

I don't know if they've just given up because they can't make their evaluation criteria work or it requires the use of half values to put in changes but the code doesn't accept fractional values or what. I mean I have to assume they know what they are doing for the most part; after all, drg has in several of its incarnations worked just fine, but this is clearly NOT one of those incarnations.

[Ophannus]

They definitely don't use an equation to calculate DPS to balance jobs. If they did, I would be surprised and almost guarantee it's a new schema. 2004-2008 was the era of extreme unbalanced gameplay. WAR/SAM/NIN/MNK were extremely good for almost all content, NIN/DRK, RDM/NIN and BRD/NIN nvalidated PLD tanks, RDM invalidated WHM healing, DRG BST PUP THF were trash DPS jobs with HUGE flaws, not things that could be fixed with minor adjustments--these jobs were poorly thought out and they must've had tunnel vision moving forward.

DRG had teeny-weeny fixes here and there, but really, the way DRG is currently--is how it should have been from day 1. After thousands of posts from my self and tens of thousands of posts from everyone else in the DRG community, we finally got decent changes, but it took over a decade of complaining, brainstorming and forum posting(i've been posting for DRG fixes back since 2004 if you were to check the history of the allakhazam forum) and it's absurd. I don't know the FFXI team is on such a high horse and is so obstinate it takes them years to implement changes that the community has wanted forever. The FFXIV dev team is so fast and onboard with fixes balance issues from patch to patch. There's a few hiccups but in general, there's really no terrible jobs, and if there are, it's situational. The FFXIV team is not much larger than the FFXI team was back in its heyday, yet, the FFXI team had this community/developer barrier where they were extremely resistant to change, and they never validate us.

I must've seen hundreds of posts from people on forums saying how poor Call Wyvern was as a SP ability, and each post probably represents 20-30 people who share/agree with the view, so really thousands of people believed it was ineffective for HNM fights. Then, when SE finally gave us Spirit Surge, they *barely* acknowledge their lack of foresight by saying in the teaser notes something to the effect of "Although we disagree that DRG's two-hour ability "Call Wyvern" is anything but weak, we feel DRG are slightly behind other jobs when it comes to needing a burst of strong damage in tight spots". So they hedge their confession with "although we disagree", "slightly" and other ways to undermine how the community regards it. Its only now that DRG is several-fold stronger than it ever was, compared to other jobs. But my point is, although I'm happy they fixed it, too little;too late, and I think the design philosophy of SE's FFXI dev team always had this dissociation between community and developers. This is most likely why FFXI steadily declined over the years. Countless updates of making SAM stronger and other jobs weaker...then finally, once the game starts dying, BAM, one-handed weapon upgrades, WS updates, and huge quality of life updates that should have been implemented--AND THAT PEOPLE WERE ASKING FOR back in 2004. I've been playing FFXI for over a decade and just in retrospect, the amount of time I spent lamenting over poor job balance was ridiculous. FFXIV by comparison is closer to perfect balance than FFXI ever way at any point in time, and their dev team actively adapts their game to the players rather than forcing players to adapt to their 'vision'. I know this post won't be translated to the Devs because it's negative and it's slightly denigrating, but it's just an observation from a veteran player. And I'm sure other veteran DRGs would agree with me at how disappointing job balance has been since day 1 and this constant game of tug of war.

[Glamdring]

Oph, the equation reference was to ALL elements of a job, not DPS-there is no way you can look at a bard's DPS and say it's balanced with a Sam's DPS unless you chop off both of the Sam's arms. Best way to demonstrate it is likely Pld, you could drop a piano on a paladin, he's likely just saying "what was that?" as he shrugs off the 5 HP damage he took while he swings at his opponent who says "seriously? what is this, a sissy slap fight?" Conversely, you hit a War with that piano and he's gonna say "what the?! you hit me with a piano!!!" and need his caved in ribs healed, while his opponent says "what the?! he hit me with a piano!" and needs his own ribs tended to. it's more complicated obviously, the pld can cure, has autorefresh, defends well against everything, has multiple hate control means, etc, etc. well every job brings a bunch to the table beyond DPS and base stats that create the aggregate utility of the job, if they didn't how would a bard have ever gotten an invite in the 1st place? because he brings other goodies to the table even if his DPS is to say the least lacking. Problem is, I don't think SE and the playerbase are on the same page as to the relative value of each trait, example, SE places a much higher value on a job's defense, the playerbase could largely care less and just expects healers to curebomb them, even if it does throw hate control into a cocked hat.

As to where drg is now, I still don't think it's there yet. but it's only 1 element that's missing, the ability to keep a wyvern out and alive. your little flapping lizard needs a bit more durability, and a greater means to heal it and/or a means to recall a dead wyvern sooner. as grekumah stated above "the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern". the clear implication is two-fold, a. without the wyvern dragoon is not strong, and thus b. maintaining a wyvern is of paramount importance. so is it too much to ask that the means to maintain one be out there? the rest of what the job can do is fine as is, but no other job is capable of being gimped to half or less effectiveness instantly as dragoon, because if Fluppy gets 1-shot you have no means of recouping that lost effectiveness, all the other pet jobs can get a pet back faster-and most take a hit better-and the rest of the jobs can't be crippled like that short of a K.O. and reraise weakness.

honestly, I think you and I are on the same page here as to the job-although I maintain the key time of job imbalance was from the start of Abyssea until today, maybe before with the release of scholar and its immediate killing of rdm. I do however maintain that an offensive breath wyvern needs its damage output increased dramatically, i.e. it should do as much damage with a breath attack as a defensive wyvern can heal with a Healing Breath. the in between ones should heal and hurt the same, just less than a pure offensive or defensive one. That likely entails increasing the Wyvern's MACC dramatically, or whatever stat controls offensive breath.

these are just my thoughts here. I've been playing since the NA release so I do remember the "good old days" and how they sometimes fell well short of "good"-remember finding a tank for your Dunes party before level sync? I also agree that yes, some of this should have been handled a decade ago, but I think a lot of the problem came with removal of the 75 level cap. it was simply handled too piecemeal. I mean, look at how many minor tweaks they've had to release to try to make pets viable post 75. They were plenty viable AT 75-sure there was a player wish list, but since we were playing pet jobs at 75 it clearly wasn't the major drop off vs. other jobs we saw at 80 and up. Abyssea masked the weakening of pets with Atma that kept them alive when they would have been dead meat anywhere else, but moving to VW showed them as weak in a hurry and it got worse as we moved to 99 and then into ilevels. Frankly, the Dev team just dropped the ball when it came to ALL pets, and they were too timid and unrealistic in their testing using all these minor tweaks spread over a year of updates; as you said, they never had difficulty installing a nuclear weapon on a Sam, so why did pets take so long to address?

[Ophannus]

For the umpteenth time, the problem isn't the Wyvern, it's the master.

My Wyvern is about 3x more durable than I am. He has about 2k HP, has permanent -40% DT, has a 33/tick regen and a full cure every 90 seconds and a 2-3k Stoneskin every few minutes, I also have Dawn Mulsums that cost me 500g to Synth and heal about 1kk per use. Seriously? 90% of the time my Wyvern dies is because I die and when the master dies, the pet is dismissed. Wyvern durability is really really fine and doesn't need anything.

What we need is a way to shorten the recast or an emergency call wyvern for those times where your group makes a mistake in the first 5-6min of a fight or battlefield and your group wipes, and thus as a DRG, you are crippled for the next 15 minutes, and you bring the group's DPS down a large amount until that time comes. I'm not saying give us a 10minute Call Wyvern. I'm not saying give us a Deus Ex Draco. I suggested a few times to make Spirit Surge useable without a Wyvern and when doing so, your Wyvern is called and in a powered up state for 60 seconds. Hell even that last part is unnecessary. If I enter an Incursion or something and we all die on the first pull, I'm crippled for 20minutes. I'd gladly sacrifice my SP1 to bring my Wyvern back. Just give us any other option but waiting 20min, even if it's on a 1hour timer and costs us an SP ability. Or maybe put Spirit Surge under Pet Commands and give it a shared timer with a new DRG SP1 called "Rouse Wyvern" aka our old SP2. If you use Rouse Wyvern, it summons your Wyvern. Or if you have a Wyvern out already, Rouse Wyvern becomes unavailable to use, but if you go to pet commands, right at the top would be Spirit Surge. That way we have a dual purpose SP1 with a variable effect depending on the situation. If you need your wyvern alive? Use Rouse Wyvern, if you need a quick burst of DPS? Use Spirit Surge or Fly High.

So much of DRG's DPS depends on the Wyvern and sometimes the Wyvern dying to Doom/Death(the spell 'Death', or TP move that instantly KO's), or the player dying to Doom/Instant KO completely cripples us.


DRG + Wyvern is not the best DPS job in the game. But other DPS jobs, when they die, they recover to full power once weakness wears off ~3-5minutes. DRG's, even after being Raised and unweakened, do not recover to full power for up to 20 minutes. If DRG was by far the best DPS in the game, it would be a fair tradeoff, but the damage DRG's deal with their Wyvern is not in accordance with how horrible the penalty is for a DRG being KO'd in the first few minutes of an encounter and thus being unavailable for the remainder of the raid.

[cengeal]

We were able to collect some answers for two of your suggestions.

- Jump and Call Wyvern
We currently have no plans to make adjustments in this direction as it'll move away from the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern.

- Drakesbane
The Drakesbane weapon skill isn't meant to be used in a skillchain with Stardiver, therefore we will not be making any adjustments with the premise of skillchains in mind.

This is the problem. We do maintain our wyverns. The problem is when we get one shot we lose our wyverns for nearly 20 minutes. The fact that we lost our wyverns isn't because we were unable to maintain them, but because of either bad party mechanics or just a flat out fail. When we get back into the fight we are crippled DD's for the next 15 minutes. This is one of my biggest fears when going to any event as DRG. Personally I believe my DRG is a great DD, but when my wyvern is dead my damage is crippled, and it is not because I did not maintain my wyvern, but because the party failed. No other job has a setback like this.

For some reason the Dev team seems to think that DRG is overpowered. This statement is true... against anything weak to piercing. Anything not weak to piercing, DRG is near the middle of the pack, assuming all players are of a similar caliber. Any type of boost would be nice. Maybe a JA that is only able to be used when the wyvern is down. This JA would not be as powerful as having the wyvern out, but it would be an option for when the wyvern is unable to be called back. As I just said, no other job has a setback like this after they die. No other job is punished the same way as DRG is in the case of a party wipe. This delay is hands down the biggest problem with DRG.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

Just thought you may have to be reminded that not everyone can craft Dawn Muslims but there also players who can't afford to buy them from characters bazzars for having them to use for their pets, Just thought you should know but it goes without saying you may already know except don't have a way of knowing that you do know it already! :p :cool:

[Ophannus]

Any culinarian over 96 can craft Dawn Mulsum. The ingredients are ridiculously cheap.

Light Crystal
1x Grape Juice
1x White Honey
1x Holy Water

I must sound like a broken record, but I feel as though the Dev team thinks the issue with DRG is still wyvern surviviability in content. In truth, Wyverns don't die in content anymore, Dragoons die. When Dragoons die, the Wyvern dies. Spirit Link, Steady Wing, 40% Damage Taken, Wyvern's Defense/Evasion/Magic Defense, Dawn Mulsum are all irrelevant. Sometimes the DRG dies because of their own machinations, but what about when the party or healer is poor? If a DRG is doomed and it isn't removed in time, the DRG will die and the Wyvern dies with him. Should DRG's suffer a 20min nerf to their DPS because another player couldn't cure or remove ailments fast enough? I submit, no. Were there a way such that if a DRG is KO'd when the Wyvern is still alive, upon raising, the Wyvern returns, it would fix DRG forever. Alas, if I am not cured fast enough, or we wipe to content and need to retry, my damage is crippled.

Since you said they won't shorten the recast:

Other options:
-Allow Wyvern to return to their master upon being defeated, so long as the Wyvern was still alive before the Dragoon's defeat, and as long as the Dragoon doesn't zone (i.e Return to Homepoint).
-Give us an equivalent of "Deus ex Automata"
-If the Wyvern is KO'd, allow us to use Spirit Surge, which would instead act like a super "Call Wyvern", calling our Wyvern to our side, and invincible to damage for 60seconds, afterwhich it acts like a regular Wyvern pet.
-Shorten Call Wyvern recast to 10minutes.


I feel strongly about giving Spirit Surge an alternate effect depending on if the Wyvern is alive or not because I too strongly disagree about reducing the recast of Call Wyvern to 10 minutes. I think it would obviate the need for all of the buffs Wyverns received to survivability, but I think DRG need a 'second chance' ability which would consume our SP1 to bring back our wyvern. The secondary effect of it would be to make the Wyvern invincible for 60seconds like Rouse Wyvern, our original SP2 did.

When the Wyvern is alive, Spirit Surge adds our Wyvern's strength to our own and increases our Attack, Defense, Haste, Max HP, and STR, while buffing our Jumps.

When the Wyvern is KO'd, Spirit Surge adds our strength to the Wyvern, calling it back to our side, increases its HP/STR/Attack/Accuracy/Haste/Breath Potency/powerful resistance against enfeebling, and gives it a total of -90% damage taken for 60 seconds.

Would be so balanced because Spirit Surge would 1) have a use without a wyvern, 2) be a 'second chance' button to call our wyvern, and 3) allow us to make our wyvern extremely durable for 60 seconds for content where we absolutely need our wyvern to stay alive e.g. if a boss is near death and we need healing breaths, or if the boss is using AoE Death or AoE doom which is extremely hard to remove on Wyverns since Spirit Link is a long recast.

[Calatilla]

- Jump and Call Wyvern
We currently have no plans to make adjustments in this direction as it'll move away from the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern.


BST is strong while they have a pet out and they're able to heal their pets with a low recast job ability and also have 2 abilities on seperate timers to call a pet if their current one dies so they pretty much have a pet out full time. SMN can recast avatars indefinatly and PUP has the option of calling a new weaker pet if their current one dies, heal to full and dismiss to reset deploy timer.

So why is it DRG has to deal with a 20min recast timer on their pet when they have none of the above options that other pet jobs have.

[Catmato]

Would be so balanced because Spirit Surge would 1) have a use without a wyvern, 2) be a 'second chance' button to call our wyvern, and 3) allow us to make our wyvern extremely durable for 60 seconds for content where we absolutely need our wyvern to stay alive e.g. if a boss is near death and we need healing breaths, or if the boss is using AoE Death or AoE doom which is extremely hard to remove on Wyverns since Spirit Link is a long recast.

I think this a great idea, especially the bolded part.

[Ophannus]

BST is strong while they have a pet out and they're able to heal their pets with a low recast job ability and also have 2 abilities on seperate timers to call a pet if their current one dies so they pretty much have a pet out full time. SMN can recast avatars indefinatly and PUP has the option of calling a new weaker pet if their current one dies, heal to full and dismiss to reset deploy timer.

So why is it DRG has to deal with a 20min recast timer on their pet when they have none of the above options that other pet jobs have.

Playing devil's advocate here, but the answer is because DRG's DPS is much, much higher than either SMN or BST without a pet. BST's melee is subpar and they have literally no abilities that enhance their own damage. SMN is absolutely worthless without a pet, they have no spells other than summons. DRG wields the second highest base DMG weapon in the game, has extremely good gear, has Jumps which, even when nerfed without a Wyvern being alive, are still a DPS gain, and Stardiver is pretty damn good.

Problem is when DRG's wyvern is alive, we are >SO< good, but if we die from a strong attack, no matter how much HP or durability the Wyvern has, it will die as soon as we do, thus its fragility is based on our fragility. They tried to re-mediate this by increasing the Dragoon's HP/Parry/Evasion a few years ago, but while this helped marginally for moderate content, end game bosses will still instantly kill a Dragoon in a single TP move if not stunned, we can still die instantly to Death or receive a Doom effect that we cannot remove in time and thus our DPS is totally garbage for up to 20 minutes, while other DPS jobs can just be raised and be back at full strength in 3-5minutes.

[Helldemon]

Playing devil's advocate here, but the answer is because DRG's DPS is much, much higher than either SMN or BST without a pet. BST's melee is subpar and they have literally no abilities that enhance their own damage. SMN is absolutely worthless without a pet, they have no spells other than summons. DRG wields the second highest base DMG weapon in the game, has extremely good gear, has Jumps which, even when nerfed without a Wyvern being alive, are still a DPS gain, and Stardiver is pretty damn good.

Problem is when DRG's wyvern is alive, we are >SO< good, but if we die from a strong attack, no matter how much HP or durability the Wyvern has, it will die as soon as we do, thus its fragility is based on our fragility. They tried to re-mediate this by increasing the Dragoon's HP/Parry/Evasion a few years ago, but while this helped marginally for moderate content, end game bosses will still instantly kill a Dragoon in a single TP move if not stunned, we can still die instantly to Death or receive a Doom effect that we cannot remove in time and thus our DPS is totally garbage for up to 20 minutes, while other DPS jobs can just be raised and be back at full strength in 3-5minutes.

Bst has a couple things going for them as a DD w/o a pet, stronger ws then ours, 5 times the acc we have provided they get enough to cap. Jumps w/o wyvern are meh. Plenty of times the wait from using the JA prevented me from being able to self SC when I would have otherwise if I had not jumped and that was with wyvern out. I almost never use them w/o a wyvern unless I'm weakened/trying to not get hit with AoE. Drg survivability needs to be boosted quite a bit if they won't reduce the timer because even with our wyvern we are not any better then other jobs at full strength and none of those jobs become completely useless for nearly an entire event just because they die once. It's bad enough plenty of jobs have a single JP that is better then all ten of drg's combined. Our last JP could have been good if it had been per wyvern lvl boosted but instead it was only one level of boost. 40 atk/def is nothing these days. Maybe if they had added 2 acc to that per lvl, it could have been a great jp. They didn't though and it's pretty terrible but sadly it's the 2nd one I'm working on because our jp selection is just that bad.

Wyvern durability would not need to be nerfed if we got a ten minute timer, 5-7 minutes is still quite crippling in a timed event like SR or Vagary. If they want to get us a 5 min timer then ya I would agree on taking it back to what it was but I would be happy to have a compromise, ten minutes vs five and keeping durability.

If SE insist on not changing our call wyvern timer or boosting our ability to survive then the benefits we get from having our wyvern need to be largely boosted. That 20% atk/def boost needs to be 40% the 10% haste needs to be 20% we also need 10% acc boost from that as well. Maybe a 10% MDB/MEVA boost too. No other job can be crippled even remotely as bad as drg w/o our pet so the buffs need to match this.

I wonder if we should be making a new thread on this since this thread was already responded to and basically refused. Do they even bother to keep paying attention to it?

[Syrrus]

As a capped Job Points DRG, my wyvern gives me approximately 250 Attack and Defense as well as 15% Double Attack. However, when activating Spirit Surge I lose all of my JP related bonuses and Wyvern "EXP" benefits.

I can't think of another job that has such a penalty to using a One-Hour ability.

Losing our wyvern as an activation cost to Spirit Surge is too much. Perhaps losing the wyvern after Spirit Surge ends or resetting Call Wyvern similar to the jump timers would help mitigate this extreme penalty.

[Martel]

I'd say just leave all Wyvern present and Wyvern exp based bonuses active while Spirit Surge is up. After all, he's with us... in spirit. <,<;

[cengeal]

Good to see the thread is still alive almost a year later. It's very disappointing that none of these have been addressed since the time I posted this. Or resolved, rather. I know this is mostly pointless, but I was trying to think of a way DRG could become desireable again, and I came up with a few ideas.

New Jumps: Compile all jump abilities into categories Jumps 1, Jumps 2, and Jumps 3. Jumps 1 would consist of:
Jump (new additional effect: accuracy boost, +30, lasts 30 seconds. The boost and duration are doubled if the wyvern is NOT present;
Spirit Jump (stays the same);
Tactical Jump (deals damage and induces a short terror effect)

Jumps 2:
High Jump (new additional effect: attack boost +30, lasts 45 seconds). Again, effect and duration are doubled if Wyvern is NOT present;
Soul Jump (stays the same);
Striking Jump (readies target for a skillchain (as if the job wasn't already good enough at self SCing));

Jumps 3:
Decisive Jump (ensures all melee attack attempts on the target within the next 10 seconds land, this ability has low accuracy, but accuracy is 100% with Wyvern absent);
Super Jump (stays the same)
Valiant Jump (grants a 20% Damage taken shield for 30 seconds, generates a lot of enmity. If wyvern is out, effect and duration increase by 50%, this effect simultaneously applies to wyvern)

Merit categories would be adjusted to Jumps 1, 2, and 3 recast timers. Each category has a jump that benefits with the wyvern being out, a jump that benefits from the wyvern not being out, and a jump that is neutral.

My second idea was to repurpose and add new breath abilities.
Heavenly Breath - AoE erase, recast 30 seconds
Divine Breath - AoE cure, recast 180 seconds
Spectral Breath - AoE barelemental, provides a unique buff that gives resistance to all elements (+100), duration 5 minutes, recast 10 minutes, stacks with barspells and runes
Mighty Breath - AoE Embrava! duration 3 minutes, recast 10 minutes, exact same effects as Mighty Guard

Add enfeebling effects to corresponding elemental breaths. These effects would not be very potent, but provide a source when they may be otherwise unattainable. They would be overwritten by player enfeebles.

[Helldemon]

My only issue with more JA's is where would we put them. My macro sets are completely full and at most I could make 1, maybe 2 more open spots. Something as simple as removing the ja delay associated with jumps and basically doubling our ws dmg would probably be enough. Pretty much every other job has far stronger weaponskills then drg and I've even seen some mage ws do more then anything I've done on drg before. I'm talking about people doing 30-40k damage weaponskills while I'm sitting here happy to see 15-20k



As a capped Job Points DRG, my wyvern gives me approximately 250 Attack and Defense as well as 15% Double Attack. However, when activating Spirit Surge I lose all of my JP related bonuses and Wyvern "EXP" benefits.

I can't think of another job that has such a penalty to using a One-Hour ability.

Losing our wyvern as an activation cost to Spirit Surge is too much. Perhaps losing the wyvern after Spirit Surge ends or resetting Call Wyvern similar to the jump timers would help mitigate this extreme penalty.

I don't think I've used Spirit Surge in years at this point, probably since they started giving us buffs for having pet out. It's basically a nerf to use our 1hr and even if it isn't, it's not worth losing our wyvern. I'd rather risk dying then lose our wyvern for the next 20 mins. Even if we have a backup ready to be called, what if we die shortly after summoning it, then we are in the same boat.

[Zekander]

I assume by 'mage' you mean Blue Mage, because no other mage job can WS like that, and obviously no other DD job can either. BLU is just totally broken right now, so you pretty much just have to ignore it if you aren't keen on playing it yourself. From what I understand, 10-15k WS (on average) is pretty good for any other DD job in the game.

[Helldemon]

Sch actually. Also seen blu's and drk's and pld do that much as well. Bst ws are better as well. Idk how high they can get but just using them on my bst with no gear swaps beat out my drg most of the time with far superior gear and job master + gear swaps.

[Zekander]

I have SCH and SMN leveled and am fairly familiar with staff WS damage, so not seeing how SCH could pull that off. Though the magic WS do scale well with MAB, so possibly with GEO support they could push them that high. And that right there is most likely your problem, most jobs can do ridiculous amounts of damage with GEO support. However, I have personally seen BLUs pull off that kind of damage with no support whatsoever. That is what made me instantly think you were referring to BLUs.

[Fenrirs_Takumi]

1 year later. 1 or 2 drg remainss on each servers.

[Helldemon]

I have SCH and SMN leveled and am fairly familiar with staff WS damage, so not seeing how SCH could pull that off. Though the magic WS do scale well with MAB, so possibly with GEO support they could push them that high. And that right there is most likely your problem, most jobs can do ridiculous amounts of damage with GEO support. However, I have personally seen BLUs pull off that kind of damage with no support whatsoever. That is what made me instantly think you were referring to BLUs.

The sch had no support, as for the other jobs that is still 2-3 times more then what drg is capable of with the same buffs.

[Zekander]

I see, that is unfortunate. I was looking for another job to level and DRG seemed interesting. I was hoping it was at least competitive with other non-BLU DDs.

As for the SCH, are you perhaps referring to magic burst damage? I really cannot see how a staff WS could do that much damage un-assisted.

[Helldemon]

I am not. It was the staff ws, which ended up with 60k dmg SC and he bursted for something around 70-80k I believe. Been awhile since I've seen the picture so don't remember the exact MB number. The WS and SC damage stood out cause it made me realize how weak drg's ws are. I have parsed very close with some as /sam blu's on my drg however, one of which had Tizona.

[Zekander]

Ok then. If that is all you are basing this thread on then nevermind. If you can indeed parse anywhere near a well played BLU then DRG has no problems whatsoever.*

I have SCH leveled and geared, I've also used staff WS extensively on WHM and SMN. I have yet to find a setup that will break 10k on any WS with no support. That picture was obviously under an extreme circumstance. Either heavily supported, or exploiting a specific mechanic (such as a primeval brew in either abbysea or walk of echos).

Also keep in mind that spike damage is not always an accurate representation of the amount of damage over time a job can deal.

*no problems in damage dealing capacity that is, almost all melee jobs (excluding BLU) have problems surviving endgame content

[Helldemon]

I have SCH leveled and geared, I've also used staff WS extensively on WHM and SMN. I have yet to find a setup that will break 10k on any WS with no support. That picture was obviously under an extreme circumstance. Either heavily supported, or exploiting a specific mechanic (such as a primeval brew in either abbysea or walk of echos).


The sch was solo and it wasn't a brew. Was on some NM that wasn't Abyssea or WoE. I remember looking the NM up to see if it took extra damage from certain types or just in general and there was no info it did. I don't remember which NM though, this was around when the MB update and WS adjustments happened so it's been awhile.



Ok then. If that is all you are basing this thread on then nevermind. If you can indeed parse anywhere near a well played BLU then DRG has no problems whatsoever.*
*no problems in damage dealing capacity that is
The situation this happened in was with two Geo's, one of which had idris. I was also receiving Mighty Guard from the blu. The fights lasted only 60-90 seconds so most of the conditions were in my favor, at least more so than the blu. I would say JA delay removal on jumps and an increase to ws damage and we would probably be good. Also Shock spikes from Gungnir need to be fixed/changed to something else.

[Ulth]

The sch was solo and it wasn't a brew. Was on some NM that wasn't Abyssea or WoE. I remember looking the NM up to see if it took extra damage from certain types or just in general and there was no info it did. I don't remember which NM though, this was around when the MB update and WS adjustments happened so it's been awhile.



The situation this happened in was with two Geo's, one of which had idris. I was also receiving Mighty Guard from the blu. The fights lasted only 60-90 seconds so most of the conditions were in my favor, at least more so than the blu. I would say JA delay removal on jumps and an increase to ws damage and we would probably be good. Also Shock spikes from Gungnir need to be fixed/changed to something else.

The 119 III aftermath give shock spikes, +5% double attack, and +5% attack.

[Helldemon]

The 119 III aftermath give shock spikes, +5% double attack, and +5% attack.

I know, I have it. Still doesn't change that the shock spikes is complete garbage and probably the worst out of all the relic's. Besides, someone shouldn't have to spend 100+ mil after already upgrading the weapon multiple times just to make the aftermath useful.

[Ulth]

I'm not understanding. Are you saying shock spikes, +5% double attack, and +5% attack is the worst relic aftermath, or that pre 119 III just shock spikes is the worst aftermath? Because pre 119 III Apocalypse had the worst aftermath, 10% gear haste.

[Helldemon]

I'm not understanding. Are you saying shock spikes, +5% double attack, and +5% attack is the worst relic aftermath, or that pre 119 III just shock spikes is the worst aftermath? Because pre 119 III Apocalypse had the worst aftermath, 10% gear haste.

I meant pre 119 III

What are you talking about? That was a great aftermath, anyone that had an apoc had an aftermath set with less haste, more acc/atk/etc in it. Besides Cata alone even if it had no aftermath annihilates most other jobs relics added effects/aftermaths. Ignores shadows, ignores DT gear, heals you a good percentage of what it does in damage. I've never met a single Apoc owner that didn't like their aftermath.

[Ulth]

It was great, key word being was, past tense. Once ilvl rolled around and everything had haste on it the aftermath gave absolutely nothing. Even with the Sulevia set which has uncharacteristically low haste for 119 armor can be brought up to cap with a belt. Anyway here is a thread with Apoc owner's being please about it changing from gear haste to ability haste. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/49650-Apocalypse-and-Ragnarok-updates-Suggestions?p=572605&viewfull=1#post572605)

So what are you talking about? If you think it's the worst aftermath pre 119 III, then who cares? Were you hoping they would change it to just +5% double attack and +5% attack instead of all three?

[Helldemon]

It was great, key word being was, past tense. Once ilvl rolled around and everything had haste on it the aftermath gave absolutely nothing. Even with the Sulevia set which has uncharacteristically low haste for 119 armor can be brought up to cap with a belt. Anyway here is a thread with Apoc owner's being please about it changing from gear haste to ability haste. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/49650-Apocalypse-and-Ragnarok-updates-Suggestions?p=572605&viewfull=1#post572605)

So what are you talking about? If you think it's the worst aftermath pre 119 III, then who cares? Were you hoping they would change it to just +5% double attack and +5% attack instead of all three?

Only one belt in the game can cap them and you couldhave used a different belt with other beneficial stats on it while using Cata to cap. What I would like is for them to make the shock spikes stronger or replace them. Gungnir doesn't automatically come 119 III the second you finish it at 75 so it should have a useful aftermath. Honestly though, if they decided they will never fix it then yes, just completely remove the shock spikes aftermath from all versions of gungnir as it's just that useless. It never once had any sort of use, at any point in time ever, can't say that about Apoc's aftermath and it was still possible to find a way to use some of that haste I'm sure. And before you whine about Cata's aftermath some more, I would gladly trade all three parts of my aftermath for the Utility of Apoc's WS. So even if Apoc's AM was the most useless, the Utility of CATA is better then any other REMA WS

The thread is interesting, I guess having some extra haste only 25% of the time is better then figuring out a way to have it 100% of the time and adding additional stats into your set. It probably isn't possible to use the full 10% these days unless you are using the Ambuscade armor but I'm sure it's possible to make use of at least half of it.

[Ulth]

Only one belt in the game can cap them and you couldhave used a different belt with other beneficial stats on it while using Cata to cap. What I would like is for them to make the shock spikes stronger or replace them. Gungnir doesn't automatically come 119 III the second you finish it at 75 so it should have a useful aftermath. Honestly though, if they decided they will never fix it then yes, just completely remove the shock spikes aftermath from all versions of gungnir as it's just that useless. It never once had any sort of use, at any point in time ever, can't say that about Apoc's aftermath and it was still possible to find a way to use some of that haste I'm sure. And before you whine about Cata's aftermath some more, I would gladly trade all three parts of my aftermath for the Utility of Apoc's WS. So even if Apoc's AM was the most useless, the Utility of CATA is better then any other REMA WS

The thread is interesting, I guess having some extra haste only 25% of the time is better then figuring out a way to have it 100% of the time and adding additional stats into your set. It probably isn't possible to use the full 10% these days unless you are using the Ambuscade armor but I'm sure it's possible to make use of at least half of it.

That you would say I'm whining is hysterical. I don't have, or ever plan on having an Apocalypse. I only brought up a worst aftermath because of all your whinging about shock spikes. Which aren't even bad. They aren't supposed to deal a lot of damage they are supposed to stun mobs that attack you. When I'm fighting something with ice spikes I'm not thinking, man I'm taking like 15 damage every hit, I'm thinking damn I'm going to get paralyzed over and over again.

[Helldemon]

Except they don't stun mobs, ever. I mentioned it in one of my posts on this thread I think. When I was doing trials in my 80's or 90's they weren't even stunning kuftal tunnel crabs(which are weak to lightning though not sure if that affects stun resistance) which are lvl 60, hundreds of ws killshots and not a single crab was ever stunned. I know spikes aren't supposed to do a ton of damage but this is a relic aftermath, so asking for good damage on them as well shouldn't be out of the question. Also Geirskogul is a very shitty WS, not as bad as it used to be, but still pretty bad considering it has a 40% Boost and still doesn't compare to multiple WS that aren't the most exclusive WS in the game like relic WS are.

You brought up worst aftermath about a aftermath that used to be very good(on what could have been considered one of the best relics in the game) and I'm sure could have still been made to be useful before the change. Nice it got a change after only a couple years of being "useless" Meanwhile drg's has never once had a single use since it was put in the game and I'm pretty sure I can say has never once saved or helped a drg out for the entire time it's existed.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

That you would say I'm whining is hysterical. I don't have, or ever plan on having an Apocalypse. I only brought up a worst aftermath because of all your whinging about shock spikes. Which aren't even bad. They aren't supposed to deal a lot of damage they are supposed to stun mobs that attack you. When I'm fighting something with ice spikes I'm not thinking, man I'm taking like 15 damage every hit, I'm thinking damn I'm going to get paralyzed over and over again.

Speaking of defensive casted spikes/automatic on some gears, I have always found that between the latter of the only 3/4 elemental protective spikes is that compared to ice spikes, the rest of the spikes seem very weak in comparison namely Blaze spikes seem to be the worst of them all in those categories.