Utilizing Myrkr for Magic Blood pacts.

[Cett]

It seems to me that many people who promote the use of Hvergelmir are melee-Smn advocates. There is nothing wrong with that, I'm not here to condemn the few of you who enjoy what you do. However, I've thought just how we as a whole can make use as Myrkr and optimize what it is our pets can do. So here is my case:

Atma choices : Atma of the Beyond(Or Hell's Guardian), Atma of the Ultimate, Atma of the Sea Daughter.

Avatar Choice: Shiva
Reason: Heavenly Strike.

As many of us know Myrkr restores mp linearly with respect to your Tp and current max MP.

Atma of the Sea Daughter applies 5 tp per tic to yourself and your pet (yay).
to get a minimum of 100 tp that's 20 tic's. Where as Minikin Monstrosity gives yourself 10 mp per tic; in 20 tics you gain 200 mp. As long as you can beat 200 mp with Myrkr, you beat the refresh.

I personally would restore roughly 450 mp per ws, or nearly 23 mp/tic worth of mp.

So I've justified the benfit of the TP regain effect over the Refresh effect from these two atma's. I have yet to proven the benefit of the Regain effect on the avatar over the 50 INT provided by them respectively. However he is a start :

Any avatar with 5/5 merits in their respective Blood pact has a base of 160 TP for that bloodpact. This leaves 140 tp to gain between blood pact delay's (Let's assume 45 seconds between BP:rage's).

Caller's Pendant along with Sea Daughter do a nice job at 7.5 TP / tic. 15 Tics exist in that 45 second window allowing for 112.5 tp to be gained. We're pretty much at 300 now! Toss in Caller Spats +1 or 2 and you have the rest of this problem solved.

So we're debating 50 INT vs 300% TP at a rate of 1 Blood Pact every 45 seconds. You can decide what you'd prefer here, this matches my play style well though.

The lovely aspect of Myrkr is, you don't need to be up in and in the monsters face to replenish our mp, simply just engage and pop it.

I'd be willing to live with the slow penalty from Sea Daughter for the benefits in my speculation here. Any thoughts Summoner community?

[Orenwald]

I never thought about it that way... however there is a problem with your math.
it should be INT50 TP160+whatever you pet can get from meleeing in 45 seconds vs 300TP.

The 50INT should add about 75 damage if we assume your pet's MAB is equal to the mob's MDB (makes math less of a headache). in 45 seconds your avatar will swing about 8 times. We'll say 7 will hit on average, because nothing it perfect, that's 58 TP

so INT50 TP218 vs TP300. . .
once again: we'll assume MAB=MDB. We'll also assume dINT is also 0 at base, to see the biggest effect of INT.

MM:[(512+1.72*219) +(50*1.5) ]= 963
SD:[(512+1.72*301)+0]=1029

if we set dINT at something more reasonable, like 30...
MM;[(512+1.72*219)+(80*1.5)]=1009
SD:[(512+1.72*301)+(30*1.5)]=1074

MM will always only add 75 damage to the base, and the difference in the base damage due to TP in this case is always going to be above 75. in fact, if you hit all 8 hits you'll swing in the 45 second window you'll still do less at base.

So the answer is simple: with Myrkr to cover the MP loss, Sea Daughter is actually better for you than Minikin Monstrosity!

...

Nice find yo :O

[Evilvivi]

I dont feel like going through all the trouble of pointing out what is so wrong in this whole thread...but i'll just point out a litte fact on tp. If you are 5/5 on a merit BP thats 160% automatically. Then Emp +1 pants give 25% tp bonus. So we are at 185% tp. Now add in the 2.5 tp/tic from Caller's Pendant, within 45 seconds, you have added 112.5% tp, which brings us at 297% tp. Now, Given that your avatar should at least land one hit in that time and regain is still ticking while avatar charges fore BP, Sea Daughter is just a massive drag net.

[Cett]

I dont feel like going through all the trouble of pointing out what is so wrong in this whole thread...but i'll just point out a litte fact on tp. If you are 5/5 on a merit BP thats 160% automatically. Then Emp +1 pants give 25% tp bonus. So we are at 185% tp. Now add in the 2.5 tp/tic from Caller's Pendant, within 45 seconds, you have added 112.5% tp, which brings us at 297% tp. Now, Given that your avatar should at least land one hit in that time and regain is still ticking while avatar charges fore BP, Sea Daughter is just a massive drag net.


Why are you assuming I let my pet melee the enemy? Unnecessary TP depending on which NM or mob it might be. 160% (Merits5/5) + 50% (+2 Caller's Spats) and 112.5% tp (overkill sure). However that leaves room for more customization, perhaps one only has 4/5 for a given avatar.

Point is we needed to justify using Sea Daughter for the regain, to do so the regain has to be more practical than the Refresh on Minikin, as well as the 50 INT. Which has been done, But in order for the 112% tp / 45 seconds to build you need Caller's Pendant + Sea Daughter, else with +2 Spats and simply Sea daughter you'll be fine :P

[Dallas]

Anyone using this build is actually negative on the physical avatar melee hits (5% slow, I believe from Sea Daughter). If you aren't meleeing, and aren't doing anything but magic pacts, do you need Myrkr? You can get to 7 refresh in items alone, as I recall, and then sub RDM.

Drop sea daughter, and add the -10 BP timer instead.

[Malamasala]

But -BP is capped for everyone (unless someone gets around to prove the atma works past the limit... something I never get anyone to prove... just keep spreading the rumor that "they heard it does this and this")

[Cett]

Avatar melee hits aren't too beneficial in Abyssea, this is in my opinion the most party/alliance friendly method for a summoner to use. Subbing whm is still the most practical sub job with this set up since you really don't need refresh, convert, sublimation etc or at least I haven't for ages... (inside abyssea). Toss out a haste or something :P . My Bp is capped... at 45 sec from AF2 + YY robe on a macro swap.. so.. that atma doesn't outweigh the usefulness of Sea Daughter in this situation. My avatar Idle set that isn't day dependant sits the elemental avatars at -2mp /tic . By just using magic Blood Pact's, sure it'll take a while to drain that mp. However, I am an avid user of all forms of my mp while waiting on timers, Blood Pact: Ward, or cure's, possibly Haste.

Remember, I'm not here to preach about how you should play the job. I am offering a solution to make Myrkr be it WoE or Emperyan based more useful. Optimizing Atma's for a weapon you probably spent a bit of time working to make is all I aimed to accomplish here! :D

[Dallas]

But -BP is capped for everyone (unless someone gets around to prove the atma works past the limit... something I never get anyone to prove... just keep spreading the rumor that "they heard it does this and this")

The Atma does go past the limit, to 35 seconds cap. It's a 28% improvement, if you do nothing else but BP. That's a pretty low starting point though.

As for proof, I think 4 months elapsing without anyone contradicting the claim is good enough for me.

[Cett]

The Atma does go past the limit, to 35 seconds cap. It's a 28% improvement, if you do nothing else but BP. That's a pretty low starting point though.

As for proof, I think 4 months elapsing without anyone contradicting the claim is good enough for me.

Just because you never saw a contradiction, doesn't mean it works. Blood pact is locked at a -15 second delay.
Atma's don't break caps, Haste is a good example... If i have 25% haste and I apply Omega's Atma which gives 10% haste I don't get 35%.

I don't quote or cite wiki, though even you should be able to see there is no exception mentioned on the blood pact page regarding this limit.

[Dallas]

I'm not particularly interested in whether you believe the Atma works or not. I take the word of the person who took the time to complete a mission line.

By all means keep theorizing how to:

1) best keep your avatar out but not use it to melee
2) spend weeks getting the best melee staff out there but not use it to melee

Summoner in FFXI must be the only job in any game ever that has developed a cult of followers dedicated to NOT DOING ANYTHING.

[Evilvivi]

You know...avatar meleeing AND SMN meleeing esp. with an Emp Staff, does a lot more than Sea Daughter can ever do. If you have to rely on 5tic regain to do your job, I can only say one thing, Stop sucking more to suck less plz.

[Korpg]

I'm not particularly interested in whether you believe the Atma works or not. I take the word of the person who took the time to complete a mission line.

By all means keep theorizing how to:

1) best keep your avatar out but not use it to melee
2) spend weeks getting the best melee staff out there but not use it to melee

Summoner in FFXI must be the only job in any game ever that has developed a cult of followers dedicated to NOT DOING ANYTHING.

Thats why SE gave SMNs Avatar's Favor.

That way, we can hit the button, go afk for 2 hours, come back, hit the button again, and continue onwards.

[Cett]

@ Evilvivi and Dallas, If you fail to see any application in this methodology, I'm sorry for your loss. The numbers cry out that Sea Daughter is better than Minikin. Your atma from the Windy story line won't break game boundaries. Summoner is meant for support, you can melee or have your pet melee or both. Though when you do so may be more detrimental to your group than if you were to play back line support.

In my linkshell, during an event at no time should a summoner no matter how large his or her ego is run in to melee a tier three notorious monster.

However, if you're solo'ing or low manning shit that drops thf head seals... go ahead.. melee, the effects won't hurt you. You're all being quite one sided in your judgements, open up a little and think on how you can be unique. That is all.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you aren't using minikin's refresh and aren't meleeing you should be using atma that increase damage over minikin's 50 INT. Did you math SD versus the other options? MM isn't a top choice for pure damage dealing, it simply beat some synthetics and gave refresh.

[Cett]

If you aren't using minikin's refresh and aren't meleeing you should be using atma that increase damage over minikin's 50 INT. Did you math SD versus the other options? MM isn't a top choice for pure damage dealing, it simply beat some synthetics and gave refresh.

The regain... applies to pet and master, I'm sure you all know this but it needs to be restated. The portion that applies regain to the master takes the place of refresh as a more potent refresh. (Roughly 18~23 mp/tic when you break it down).
Granted you may have no need for refresh at every single waking moment, go ahead and use Garland of Bliss or Catacylsm, it makes not much difference.

Instances where the initial post can apply and be useful as far as strategy's go:
Dragua
Azdaja
The thing that looks like Omega
Similar things like this..(Tier 3 NM's that Will Kill Your Summoner Or Pet if left to melee.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I know how Atma work, I'm stating you're declaring SD beats Minikin for damage when Minikin isn't one of the best atma for dealing damage in the first place, it just had utility in 10/tick refresh.

EDIT: and if you're complaining about stuff that would kill the Smn your idea won't work anyway since you aren't going to be running in to WS at all. Smn really shouldn't be getting one shot all that often anyway, unless you put on -hp or something.

[Cett]

SD only has two beneficial effects, and one negative. It was imperative that it outweigh MM in usefulness. The goal isn't to seek optimum damage, just more damage than MM.

[Cett]

I know how Atma work, I'm stating you're declaring SD beats Minikin for damage when Minikin isn't one of the best atma for dealing damage in the first place, it just had utility in 10/tick refresh.

EDIT: and if you're complaining about stuff that would kill the Smn your idea won't work anyway since you aren't going to be running in to WS at all. Smn really shouldn't be getting one shot all that often anyway, unless you put on -hp or something.

Myrkr doesn't require you to be near the monster to use the weapon skill, since it deals no damage. Nor do you have to target the main monster your alliance is engaged with to weapon skill as you won't draw hate on anything by using it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Ok forgot that, was thinking spirit taker for some reason.

[Cett]

Ok forgot that, was thinking spirit taker for some reason.

:D
but ya, I'm aware that this doesn't take advantage of the aftermath effect of Hverlmir, but it is a strategy designed around the benefit of the weaponskill and can be implemented by the WoE version or the Emperyan.

Once I complete Hverlmir I intend to go Smn/Sam, and mess around with Sekkanoki > Mrykr > Myrkr which I hope will restore 100% of mp. Not too sure if the first weaponskill will only have the application of 100% tp or 300% (Never payed much attention) But the purpose will be to gauge the usefulness of a Melee smn :P .

For now though, I am 100% against the use of Perpetuation Staves as I use soul scourage. I also enjoy taking advantage of the Caller's Bracers +1 or +2 by using avatars of matching weather or day. And with the correct combination of gear, Hverlmir can be a very powerful tool!

[Dallas]

@ Evilvivi and Dallas, If you fail to see any application in this methodology, I'm sorry for your loss. The numbers cry out that Sea Daughter is better than Minikin. Your atma from the Windy story line won't break game boundaries. Summoner is meant for support, you can melee or have your pet melee or both. Though when you do so may be more detrimental to your group than if you were to play back line support.

In my linkshell, during an event at no time should a summoner no matter how large his or her ego is run in to melee a tier three notorious monster.

However, if you're solo'ing or low manning shit that drops thf head seals... go ahead.. melee, the effects won't hurt you. You're all being quite one sided in your judgements, open up a little and think on how you can be unique. That is all.

We get it, we really do. You need an excuse to give your LS to get you your staff without actually admitting "yeah, I *will* be smacking things with it." It's still a bad excuse to pretend that standing around losing mp to perp costs justifies the weapon. If the pet is out, put it on a mob. If it is on a mob, you do NOT need regain.

[Cett]

We get it, we really do. You need an excuse to give your LS to get you your staff without actually admitting "yeah, I *will* be smacking things with it." It's still a bad excuse to pretend that standing around losing mp to perp costs justifies the weapon. If the pet is out, put it on a mob. If it is on a mob, you do NOT need regain.

I could simply say "This staff is pretty, this is the weapon I want lets go Linkshell!" and they'd help me. The fact that there is some worth to the weapon only helps. I've practically solo'd it in spare time anyway.

I use Summoner for 2 things, dicking around cause its fun which may include actually meleeing stuff! (I do this too yes, cap staff skill and everything) However I'm not going in guns blazing to fight an Abyssean Wyrm or a Chariot to feed it tp or force myself to need cures. Regain will build up enough tp to restore my mp (use the weapon skill from a distance) Making it more valuable than MM for the Summoner's MP cost. Pet Stays out, pet gets tp too, making its magic Bp's stronger.

It's a play style, not some radically obsessed summoner way of life.
While using Magic based atma's, an avatars physical damage is piss poor anyway. I might pull off 560 damage on Shuala while allowing shiva to melee in between blood pacts. That would be assuming roughly 7~9 attacks land in that time. That is the equivalent of 1 Swing of a great axe from a well equipt war on the same NM. Melee'ing is insignificant while in a group that has players to actually play the role of melee DD.

I appreciate summoner, I acknowledge that you enjoy playing a bit outside the box and believe strongly in its abilities using that methodology. That shouldn't be your focus and main strategy each time you play summoner though. Sometimes you aught to sit back and not die... feed tp... what ever reason I've mentioned. It's not a crime to cure your party members, haste the ninja, paralyna the DD's.

Please, next comment in response to this, enlighten us as to the true benefit of allowing your summoner to melee. Post some raw numbers and values to make us want to be upfront and in the fact of Orthrus poking him with the blunt end of our staff. I would love to participate in events using this manner of combat.

[Neisan_Quetz]

At least use a NM that's more likely to kill you than Orthrus. Unless you don't have a whm but then you wouldn't be on Smn in the first place. I already stated earlier, or at least in another thread, if it doesn't have dangerous auras/AoE attacks, why not melee?

[Korpg]

If you guys are really all gung-ho about this "Avatars shouldn't melee during certain NMs" then why not do this?

Put VV/RR/AoA atmas on, and do old-school Avatar BP/Release methods.

Or put Beyond(or any other + elemental damage atma)/Ultimate/Hell's Guardian Atma on and BP/Release for magical damage.

[Dallas]

Please, next comment in response to this, enlighten us as to the true benefit of allowing your summoner to melee.

The DPS on the emp staff is only 4% less than the DPS on the emp GK. SAM gets better WS, better gear, and better stats, but SMN gets an avatar. SAM does more overall damage. SMN can buff and has much better survivability.

If you want numbers, go grab a magian trial staff and fight alongside your pet. Notice how each hit is more damage than the entire evening of "not meleeing." There are several of us who have killed thousands of mobs for our trials this way. Our weapons and gear are strong. We melee not because we want to, but because we can.

Your turn. What type of player are you trying to attract to this BP/retreat method?

[Orenwald]

I dont feel like going through all the trouble of pointing out what is so wrong in this whole thread...but i'll just point out a litte fact on tp. If you are 5/5 on a merit BP thats 160% automatically. Then Emp +1 pants give 25% tp bonus. So we are at 185% tp. Now add in the 2.5 tp/tic from Caller's Pendant, within 45 seconds, you have added 112.5% tp, which brings us at 297% tp. Now, Given that your avatar should at least land one hit in that time and regain is still ticking while avatar charges fore BP, Sea Daughter is just a massive drag net.
Am I the only one who noticed that he did 2.5 x 45 instead of 2.5 x 15 (45 seconds is 15 tics not 45 tics)

This being said I totally forgot to tally that in... and after I do tally that 37.5 TP in... sea daughter still wins by about 10 base damage, ASSUMING you let your pet melee with MM on.

So once again, SD > MM for a myrkr SMN.

Nice Find :D

[Cett]

The DPS on the emp staff is only 4% less than the DPS on the emp GK. SAM gets better WS, better gear, and better stats, but SMN gets an avatar. SAM does more overall damage. SMN can buff and has much better survivability.

If you want numbers, go grab a magian trial staff and fight alongside your pet. Notice how each hit is more damage than the entire evening of "not meleeing." There are several of us who have killed thousands of mobs for our trials this way. Our weapons and gear are strong. We melee not because we want to, but because we can.

Your turn. What type of player are you trying to attract to this BP/retreat method?

Any summoner in a group event of 12 or more person who are targeting Tier 2 or higher Notorious Monsters in zones such as Abyssea- Altepa, Abyssea - Graub, Abyssea - Ull. For the purpose of keeping up a consistent DOT and to assist their group through various means of support. While at the same time utilizing Myrkr effectively by avoiding the use of MM.

This was the original intent from the very beginning. If you feel that your Summoner can effectively and consistently deal damage in this respect to this class of HNM, given my conditions please... adhere to my previous post.. Give us raw numbers and prove that your method is a superior use of myrkr than mine.

Also since you don't wish to believe my claim that your friend has provided you false information, I've taken the initiative to complete the windurst wotg path to acquire this atma. I'm one fight away, maybe then you'll believe me because I too will have complete it :P

[Evilvivi]

Am I the only one who noticed that he did 2.5 x 45 instead of 2.5 x 15 (45 seconds is 15 tics not 45 tics)

This being said I totally forgot to tally that in... and after I do tally that 37.5 TP in... sea daughter still wins by about 10 base damage, ASSUMING you let your pet melee with MM on.

So once again, SD > MM for a myrkr SMN.

Nice Find :D

LOL! I was wondering if somebody would notice that mistake I made, I was tired when I posted it, but couldnt be bothered to go back and edit since nobody realized...

[Cett]

I'm not particularly interested in whether you believe the Atma works or not. I take the word of the person who took the time to complete a mission line.

Finished it!
Atma doesn't help you exceed beyond 45 seconds BP delay. Hope you believe me now cause I have it and took the time! ;D

[Dallas]

Well I just swung my staff for more than 10 damage, so you've still got a problem. EDIT: the mob was Bennu, if it matters.

[Karbuncle]

SMN does get some good Melee Gear, Though most people overlook it. They also have great WS Gear cause 90% Of Staff WS are MND/INT modded.

Really, Let me show you guys something surprising. With this set up: http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=206905

I can get Haste+22% on SMN. (+3 Augm Shantoto pants). Thats 3.?% from Cap. Thats pretty respectable. on top of the SMN/SAM can become a decent DD. I'm not delusional enough to think it'll out-DD a conventional DD, But if you're going to advocate using Hvel to keep Avatars out, I'm saying its possible to do it. However, the solution is not a Slow+25% Atma.

And as for Avatars Meleeing and the whole TP Feed thing... I"m sorry but thats a Terrible argument in this era of the game. Mages have nearly infinite MP, If your Tanks/Etc are dying because of 1 Avatar Meleeing, You have a terrible LS/Group/Team. There are probably less than a handful of mobs where it would be absolutely necessary to keep Avatars off. Of them i can think of the Imp in Uleg, any mob with a 1-hit-KO Move (if you're stunners aren't ready), etc. but those are in the massive Minority when it comes to NMs.

SMN has decent access to Melee gear, and has the ability to get above 20% Haste. It'll take time, But it can be achieved. I don't condone doing this on Everything, But if you're getting a Hvelm, you should at least look to Utilize both your Avatar, and the Staff to its fullest.

[Cett]

And as for Avatars Meleeing and the whole TP Feed thing... I"m sorry but thats a Terrible argument in this era of the game. Mages have nearly infinite MP, If your Tanks/Etc are dying because of 1 Avatar Meleeing, You have a terrible LS/Group/Team.



I'm more concerned about any increased rate of TP attacks while proc'ing weakness. Yellow !! is especially irritating due to recast on various spells (1000 Needles, Ancient magic, etc).

Although, most of our healer classes are secondary character's to persons in our linkshell. It doesn't pose a problem, but curing ain't always what its cracked up to be when you'd rather be Blood pact'ing away and melee'ing junk! :P

[Karbuncle]

And as for Avatars Meleeing and the whole TP Feed thing... I"m sorry but thats a Terrible argument in this era of the game. Mages have nearly infinite MP, If your Tanks/Etc are dying because of 1 Avatar Meleeing, You have a terrible LS/Group/Team.


I'm more concerned about any increased rate of TP attacks while proc'ing weakness. Yellow !! is especially irritating due to recast on various spells (1000 Needles, Ancient magic, etc).

Although, most of our healer classes are secondary character's to persons in our linkshell. It doesn't pose a problem, but curing ain't always what its cracked up to be when you'd rather be Blood pact'ing away and melee'ing junk! :P

Of course! I had only assumed that would be obvious :P

You'd wait to go all out until triggers were proc'd (like other DDs ^_~)

[Soundwave]

Remember, I'm not here to preach about how you should play the job. I am offering a solution to make Myrkr be it WoE or Emperyan based more useful. Optimizing Atma's for a weapon you probably spent a bit of time working to make is all I aimed to accomplish here! :D

I like this...for your opinion and for everything else it stands for, some people get so bent out of shape if u post an "idea" and if its not the way "they" would play the job...and no doubt summoner job has this more than any other job, they toss a hissy fit.

I've always hoped for the avatar using TP to trigger the weapon in some cases, mainly for Dangerous AoE fights. I'm sure this is kinda unreasonable but just a thought I always had when Mythics hit ffxi.

[Korpg]

I think that the OP wants some justifications in getting an Emp Staff.

Karbuncle pretty much said what needs to be said (second part, not just the first part)

[Cett]

So just got Hvergelmir yesterday, tried out smn/sam with relatively decent melee gear inside of abyssea. I'll add that I was solo, and I hate it. Pull hate off my damn pet nearly right away! :P

I've come to prefer my set up, its nearly impossible to use as much mp just blood pacting that myrkr can restore. So it gives me ample time to do more fun weapon skills such as Cataclysm or Garland of Blyss. Both are amplified in strength due to the MAB atmas, so it makes for awesome amber building stuff. The regen during the day time is an awesome touch as well. 300% myrkr + elemental siphon restore a grand total of 1700 mp for me yesterday from practically 0 mp.

All in all, I'm a huge fan! Get moar emp staves!!

(btw the remove ailments as far as i can tell will remove anything that wouldn't stop u from using tp attacks. and so far its removed everything inflicted on me! Trying to get hit by bad breath and test its real limits :P)

[Karbuncle]

So just got Hvergelmir yesterday, tried out smn/sam with relatively decent melee gear inside of abyssea. I'll add that I was solo, and I hate it. Pull hate off my damn pet nearly right away! :P

I've come to prefer my set up, its nearly impossible to use as much mp just blood pacting that myrkr can restore. So it gives me ample time to do more fun weapon skills such as Cataclysm or Garland of Blyss. Both are amplified in strength due to the MAB atmas, so it makes for awesome amber building stuff. The regen during the day time is an awesome touch as well. 300% myrkr + elemental siphon restore a grand total of 1700 mp for me yesterday from practically 0 mp.

All in all, I'm a huge fan! Get moar emp staves!!

(btw the remove ailments as far as i can tell will remove anything that wouldn't stop u from using tp attacks. and so far its removed everything inflicted on me! Trying to get hit by bad breath and test its real limits :P)

What was your Set up? I missed it too lazy to look back >.>

[Cett]

What was your Set up? I missed it too lazy to look back >.>

Atma of the Sea Daughter Regen 30hp/tic(day only), 15~25% slow not sure, 5 tp/tic
Atma of the Ultimate mp -25%, MaB +50, Macc +50
Atma of Beyond MaB +30, Ice dmg +30, Light Dmg +30.

Beyond helps buff Garland of Bliss, both master and pet get tp, regen helps pets survivability, slow sucks but we'll get over it, Macc and MAB for everything else. ;D

[Papesse]

(btw the remove ailments as far as i can tell will remove anything that wouldn't stop u from using tp attacks. and so far its removed everything inflicted on me! Trying to get hit by bad breath and test its real limits :P)

You can't remove more than 3 status ailments at once with it and it doesn't seem to work on Doom, Mute or Super Curse but it's still a pretty nice bonus. (I have Hvergelmir lvl 90)

[Karbuncle]

Atma of the Sea Daughter Regen 30hp/tic(day only), 15~25% slow not sure, 5 tp/tic
Atma of the Ultimate mp -25%, MaB +50, Macc +50
Atma of Beyond MaB +30, Ice dmg +30, Light Dmg +30.

Beyond helps buff Garland of Bliss, both master and pet get tp, regen helps pets survivability, slow sucks but we'll get over it, Macc and MAB for everything else. ;D

Ah. If i got that Staff I'd never tough a Slow+25% Atma especially if i planned to full melee :\

But if it worked for you, w00t

[Cett]

NA wiki reports the slow % on sea daughter to be 13.3% which really isn't that bad!! XD But the staff gives 10 tp per hit w/o any store tp. If these conditions remain the same, then letting the TP regain on sea daughter provide you with TP will beat out the TP you could gain while melee'ing without buffs. Lets say Sea daughter in 65 seconds gives you 108 and 1/3 tp, while meleeing will give you 100 tp.

You can also melee despite this slow effect, haste yourself and what not, and you basically double your rate of tp.

We could play with the numbers and crunch multiple gear sets and situations. Though all I want to say is that the slow on sea daughter shouldn't be a turn off for the extra benefits it provides :D

[Karbuncle]

I'm a DD, I've been mentally trained to think haste is the most important stat. (cause it is)

So its something that would require getting used too ⌐ ⌐. Though Its still uncertain. I think i attack every ~4 Seconds on SMN. Less if i keep haste up, so thats 20tp/8sec, Eh. I wouldn't be able to crunch this.

To find something worth giving up haste for, I'd need math. But thats just me, Not saying it doesn't work lol.

[Cett]

I'm a DD, I've been mentally trained to think haste is the most important stat. (cause it is)

So its something that would require getting used too ⌐ ⌐. Though Its still uncertain. I think i attack every ~4 Seconds on SMN. Less if i keep haste up, so thats 20tp/8sec, Eh. I wouldn't be able to crunch this.

To find something worth giving up haste for, I'd need math. But thats just me, Not saying it doesn't work lol.

I agree completely, I'd love to see the numbers but not even I'm that dedicated enough to figure this out right now. Though for a non DD gear'd summoner, I believe my methods provide a stronger more optimal setting for a summoner. Can pump out 1100~1400 Garland of Bliss' ws's if you are sitting on a bit of MP still and your pets still gain enough tp to always be Max tp!

I'm about to go test out Atma of the Apocalypse with Spirits to see if they instant cast much !! :P

[Rezeak]

Great use of sea daughter here i mean i usally have that on anyway to stagger red !! so overall SMN/WHM with that kinda of a setup it great.

I will mention this tho /RDM i need no mp recovery siphion and convert is all i need there.

Even if i'm /WHM or /NIN (soloing) Temp items will get me by if i need extra.

[Dallas]

Well yeah, if you melee unbuffed with 13.3% slow, you might as well weild a Trick Staff. If you are meleeing with /SAM, 48% haste, 7% DA, and near perpetual ODD, you wouldn't be caught dead saying Sea Daughter is any good.