So new enmity what does it mean?

[dasva]

Most of the enmity changes were pretty straightforward (though exact amounts aren't know the gist is simple enough) but the last line kind of confused me

"Enmity will now decrease based on the gap between player/pet level/item level and monster level.
* Abilities that generate a fixed amount of enmity, such as healing magic and elemental magic, are exempt from this change"

Like are you referring to accumulated enmity decreasing over time based on lvl difference or more along the +/- enmity stat based on the ability statement after I'd assume like the stat.

If it's decreasing over time is it CE or VE?

If it's like the stat does it add along and go with that cap or is it separate? Since it seems to be mostly about damage enmity which was already based on monster level does that mean there is a correction both for monster level and for level difference now? And since cures also account for level of the target will they also account for level difference between the caster and the target of the cure as well?

Also which way does it go? Like I'd assume it is decreases as the monster level rises above yours but is it that or the other way around? Also does it apply to monsters lower level than us.

Also the last part really confuses me it says abilities that generated fixed amounts of enmity and then lists magic categories full of spells that don't generate fixed amounts which kind of sends mixed messages <.<. So is it just ones that generate fixed amounts of enmity (and is that all sources of fixed including things like coronach?) or does it include all healing and elemental magic?

Also could we get exact values for dmg enmity now and how much it's lowered on Magic burst?

[V-1000]

I have no idea but i have never seen Enmity this broken, now it seems that anything you your pet or trust do gets them enmity : :

Example A: PUP/DNC i send pet to attack a bunny while i go kill another bunny, even thou i have not touch my pet's bunny nor any npc has casted anything on it, anything i or trust do makes my pets bunny atk us, like if kara heals me my pet's bunny agros kara even thou its taking dmg from my pet…… wtf. is master/trust and pet hate shared now?

Example B: PUP/DNC i attack a board on kamhir and even thou i just hit for 669, 664 koru cast slow on it and he gets hate……? ive ws the mob and kara seems to have like a 90% constant hate all the time i cant even do VT worms anymore because npc hate is extremely high auto atks or my ws don't really get me any hate anymore what is going on??

Example C: i was SCH/RDM on a vagary run anything i cast got me hate i even died rr only thing i did was cast haste on me and got hate away from dd got kill for simply casting haste ….whatever they did screwed up Enmity really bad before the update i had no issues keeping hate as pup even with pet ws, pet mobs never aggro me and i certainly did not get hate for every spell i casted on a mage job or any simple action i took. accession ? forget about it anything i acce might aswell be using Benediction…..

i think they should either review this or put it back as it was and give pld auto enmity traits to help them maintain hate and give an ability that does the same to the other tanks that way nin are not stuck with enmity when they are just dd's to me its seems that enmity is all over the place and trust are pulling hate for pretty much any action they take, i know pets dont have a lot of enmity but me or my npc pulling hate away from pets mobs when i or they havent performed any action on it seems a little bit too much pet is dealing dmg after all so why what i or trust do to another mob should have any effect on my pets target. SE needs to really take a look at this but my biggest surprise is that no one else seems to be bothered by this…..

[zataz]

i personally enjoy the change just saying lol

[dasva]

I'm unsure. Mostly though I want clarification on what exactly it was so I can math things out and figure out better ways to tank and such. Then decide how good the update is.

[bazookatooth]

It seems to work okayish in real player groups, but with NPCs it's just trash. I can't speak for pet jobs, but for NPCs, they need to fix it.

[Shirai]

Certainly needs a fix for pet jobs, a mob should not be looking at me after a 9k+ damage blood pact for simply casting refresh on myself.
Yet it happens...

Sure, the avatar has it back with only one hit but I have to stand absolutely still.
I can't melee with my avatar, I can't buff myself, nothing.

How are beastmasters coping? I am genuinely curious.

[Zeargi]

Certainly needs a fix for pet jobs, a mob should not be looking at me after a 9k+ damage blood pact for simply casting refresh on myself.
Yet it happens...

Sure, the avatar has it back with only one hit but I have to stand absolutely still.
I can't melee with my avatar, I can't buff myself, nothing.

How are beastmasters coping? I am genuinely curious.

I experienced that this evening. I was doing Reives, let my Avatar wail a bit... I hit the mob once, and it instantly turned to me. A trust used one ability it got attacked. There shouldn't be this much of a turn so easily. o_O Also, I can't even get Atonement to even break 1000 dmg most of the time when I play on PLD, where before it was doing 5x that amount.

[V-1000]

Idk about bst but both my pup and smn are on the same boat so i can only assume bst is doing just as bad, i am sure in pty's inst too bad but solo is impossible vs nms or mobs that are like VT that normally you kept enough hate to guard your trust they now just get all the hate and die taking you with them :/ i don't understand how that sounds like balance to the dev team. i ws on my war for 8977 Uph koru casted slow and mob turn to koru until i used warcry….. unsure what they were aiming for by doing this but its freaking broken.. i am surprise Za says he like it the way it is now, i can only assume he enjoys tanking the mob no matter if he is on a dd/tank/mage or pet job assuming whm can keep him alive if they don't die from a single cure cast. unsure how anyone would say the like a mob who is out of control in a pty hitting all jobs for merely activating an ability or casting a single spell.

before this update i never had issues keeping hate off npc or having ava/auto tank without me ever getting hate. after you establish hate the mob would only turn if pet out dd you, before update hate was much more controlled i don't understand the logic of SE behind this outrageous change.

[bazookatooth]

Maybe they were trying to bring back red mage tanking? j/k

[Zeargi]

Maybe they were trying to bring back red mage tanking? j/k


It's funny you mention this, We had WHM Tanking in Delve the other night >_>;

[Camate]

Hello,

We’ve been receiving quite a lot of questions and feedback on the enmity adjustments made in the March version update, so I’d like to respond to some of the larger topics.


The reason why we made adjustments

With the implementation of the item level system, both characters and weapon skills were adjusted, and as a result the amount of enmity generated by damage dealt increased. This caused the enmity cap to be reached too quickly, which made it difficult to control enmity.

Due to this situation, we made adjustments by increasing the enmity cap and simultaneously decreasing the amount of enmity generated through damage, thus allowing for a longer period of controlling the target enemy.


Targets easily rushing back line jobs

While adjustments were made to decrease the amount of enmity generated from damage, enmity generated from abilities, support, and healing spells saw no large changes, and it’s become difficult to maintain enmity on targets like in the past.

However, this means that the weight of enmity generated from abilities and spells has become relatively larger, and this has made it so warrior, paladin, and rune fencer, who possess many of these, are able to more easily control their a target.
(Of the jobs designed to be a tank, we feel that ninja is lacking in the ways to gain enmity, and we are planning to make adjustments to this in a future version update.)

Prior to the adjustments, the weight of enmity generated from damage was higher, and as there were many cases where emphasis was placed on damage dealing efficiency when selecting a front line job, there was a situation where it was becoming more difficult to choose a job that was proper for enmity control.

Due to this, we’d like to make it so each job is able to elicit their own unique characteristics by increasing the necessity for enmity equipment and abilities that control enmity.

In the event you need to protect back line jobs, we’d like everyone to try various methods for maintaining enmity such as adding jobs that possess a wealth of enmity generating means or utilizing support-type jobs to manipulate enmity.


Back line alter egos taking hate too easily

The development team is aware that back line alter egos are easily pulling hate. Since alter egos function based on a special routine for each character, it’s difficult for fine enmity control, and we are currently looking into adjusting the amount of enmity generated by tank-type and healing/support-type alter egos.

[dasva]

Thank you Camate for the response for why you made the changes. Might we get an explanation on exactly what the changes were as that was kind of the point of this thread when I made it. Specifically the questions asked in the OP

[Crevox]

As you should be aware, this is simply a translated version of:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/30604-%E6%95%B5%E5%AF%BE%E5%BF%83%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=547537#post547537

Thus, they simply put the translated version of that into the first topic they could find that was on a similar subject. They were not aiming to answer any of the questions in this thread, because the response was not for this thread, but for the other one.

[Zeargi]

Targets easily rushing back line jobs

While adjustments were made to decrease the amount of enmity generated from damage, enmity generated from abilities, support, and healing spells saw no large changes, and it’s become difficult to maintain enmity on targets like in the past.

However, this means that the weight of enmity generated from abilities and spells has become relatively larger, and this has made it so warrior, paladin, and rune fencer, who possess many of these, are able to more easily control their a target.

(Of the jobs designed to be a tank, we feel that ninja is lacking in the ways to gain enmity, and we are planning to make adjustments to this in a future version update.)

Prior to the adjustments, the weight of enmity generated from damage was higher, and as there were many cases where emphasis was placed on damage dealing efficiency when selecting a front line job, there was a situation where it was becoming more difficult to choose a job that was proper for enmity control.

Due to this, we’d like to make it so each job is able to elicit their own unique characteristics by increasing the necessity for enmity equipment and abilities that control enmity.

In the event you need to protect back line jobs, we’d like everyone to try various methods for maintaining enmity such as adding jobs that possess a wealth of enmity generating means or utilizing support-type jobs to manipulate enmity.
[/list]

This change is actually a very bad thing. Take for example THF, "Enmity Controllers". While using Trion that can us Flash and Provoke often times he'll start with hate. But if I gain hate, I have a hard time transferring it back if I want to stack abilities. Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Bully, and Assassin's Charge with Rudra's Storm is usually a large amount of DMG, but because I've used 4 abilities in tandem, It's like that DMG doesn't even matter until I outright kill what I'm fighting. On my SMN, I sub SCH and me switching from Light Arts to Dark Arts is often more than enough to pull focus. Heck, even Pacifying Ruby is useless, because the enmity I generate from use a Blood Pact isn't negated enough by the ability.

If you want to keep like this I feel that certain abilities need to be removed from Generating enmity at all. There's no reason that Sneak Attack or Trick Attack, themselves should generate a massive amount of hate, they're suppose to be 'discrete movements' that go with the lore of thief. A WHM shouldn't pull hate for switch to Solace, nor a SCH for using Libra or switching Grimoires. I haven't tried BLM's Enmity Dowse, but I can only imagine that it's not as effective as it should be. I was really disheartened at getting an enmity control BP only to have it become unusable while I'm by myself or in a small group.

[AtrixWolfe]

Special attention needs to be made to pet jobs. You should not do a 7k flaming crush on a new target, walk up and hit that target once and have the enmity on you. You can even let an avatar attack a target for a long while, and if you cast a buff or heal will sometimes pull hate. From what I hear BST and PUP have similar issues now. If spells are hate generation tools, then using wards should get avatars hate. I strongly feel something had to be done with enmity. But I do not see why pets taking damage instead of their masters and destroying that relationship is beneficial to the game or their respective jobs however, indeed it destroys the ability to solo some things that was possible before and makes pet jobs much more at risk than ever before. Abilities like stout servant suggest that pets should be taking damage at least some of the time.

[Clou777]

Avatar:Enmity+X = bugger all now

[Glamdring]

Special attention needs to be made to pet jobs. You should not do a 7k flaming crush on a new target, walk up and hit that target once and have the enmity on you. You can even let an avatar attack a target for a long while, and if you cast a buff or heal will sometimes pull hate. From what I hear BST and PUP have similar issues now. If spells are hate generation tools, then using wards should get avatars hate. I strongly feel something had to be done with enmity. But I do not see why pets taking damage instead of their masters and destroying that relationship is beneficial to the game or their respective jobs however, indeed it destroys the ability to solo some things that was possible before and makes pet jobs much more at risk than ever before. Abilities like stout servant suggest that pets should be taking damage at least some of the time.

beast enmity has been messed up since the level cap went to 80, it's THAT long ago, it's just worse now, pup's has always been screwed up however, even solo Valoredge has never been able to tank. for about 10 years I made a living on my beast, solo, fighting with my pet and letting the pet hold hate-note, usually not using jugs and Snarl didn't exist for almost the entire time. it wasn't because I was a bad beast-I'm VERY good actually-it's because the pets were very tough, hit hard and I geared whenever possible to make them even better. Then came level 80 and abyssea. since they decided to make charming impossible there and they funneled all play until about level 95 through Aby they made all development jug-based and jugs have always had a level cap penalty vs. the master, AND they have also always been gimped compared to their wild counterparts-relic gloves could close the level penalty but nothing fixed the overall weakness in comparison to the real mob. They also made it possible to make almost invulnerable pets, which brought in the bandwagon beasts and the "sic your pet and then AFK" method of play, and they developed accordingly from that point on. we are currently at a crossroads from "either send the master OR send the pet, not both" to "send both but don't expect much from the pet", not an improvement in this beast's eyes but also not likely to ever change. While the exact mechanics change with each of the other pet jobs the basic gripe is the same. We've been asking for fixes to this situation since day one of the forums, and I guess 3.5 years of silence should serve as our answer, "NO".

[dasva]

As you should be aware, this is simply a translated version of:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/30604-%E6%95%B5%E5%AF%BE%E5%BF%83%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=547537#post547537

Thus, they simply put the translated version of that into the first topic they could find that was on a similar subject. They were not aiming to answer any of the questions in this thread, because the response was not for this thread, but for the other one.

Which really kind of means it should've been put in another thread instead of clogging up this one making it appear like this one had been responded to

[Kyosukerob]

While I appreciate that it's possible to take more jobs to things like Ark Angels II and tanky fights are far more manageable in a sense for the average PLD, the things I took a PLD to prior were barely an issue for me as PLD. Additional enmity and Fast Cast swapped in for Flash, enmity swapped in for every JA, stacked WS macros, a solid self-cure set for enmity, etc. This all made tanking very manageable. The only time I'd ever have an issue was during buff-stripping if mages couldn't buff me back up in Delve 2. Of course this became moot once I made a MDT set that capped with Shell I. Anyone who put a reasonable amount of effort (less than I did but more than the bandwagon fellows did) would have little trouble in a cookie-cutter setup stacked with RNGs, which is what you'd find in most content involving PLD.

I assumed that, upon reading the update post, there was an increase in the hate cap. This is probably what should have been done honestly. Upon entering Vagary, first thing we did following update, we were under the impression the hate oddities we noticed were only present during Vagary. After leaving and finding the same results we were astounded. How did this pass the QC phase? There are many adjustments I agree with by SE, but when WHMs in my linkshell mourn the difficulties of nearly capped enmity reduction still netting them ridiculous hate on Wopket there's something afoot. I wonder if we were expected to bring a PLD to everything now? Some voicing of the expectations of the Devs would be greatly appreciated. If bringing a warrior has indeed become important I'm all for it as it's been my favorite overlooked job since I shelved PUP for the sake of relevance. I think I got two months of use out of WAR before Fudo broke the game.

In spite of the rant, thanks for responding to the community's concerns. It's great to know we're heard somewhat.

[Bluestar2kx]

I've definitely found issues with hate control and healer trusts.
They just peal hate clean off and it's very tough to get it back because they sit and cure spam themselves, this is esp an issue at lower levels.
My 99 dnc doesn't have any issues but she has a high atk speed and greater power over the trust npcs, and roams with a rdm partner.

But my other jobs have more issues. My pld is most notable lately with karaha-baruha because I've used it recently (and she only just got cure IV). Not so much an issue with blm type trusts tho, that new sch lady wasn't an issue at all, I've not tried cherukiki though, as she favors regen it might not be too bad.
I've not tried pup yet either with like tank trusts and such to see how things are reflected.

[Zeargi]

But my other jobs have more issues. My pld is most notable lately with karaha-baruha because I've used it recently (and she only just got cure IV). Not so much an issue with blm type trusts tho, that new sch lady wasn't an issue at all, I've not tried cherukiki though, as she favors regen it might not be too bad.
I've not tried pup yet either with like tank trusts and such to see how things are reflected.

Karaha-Baruha's other problem is that he also has Heavy Hitting WS's and will try his best to close Darkness or MB with Lunar Bay/Howling Moon.

[Bluestar2kx]

Karaha-Baruha's other problem is that he also has Heavy Hitting WS's and will try his best to close Darkness or MB with Lunar Bay/Howling Moon.

I generally don't have much issue with that, generates a lot of hate and usually gets him attacked, but afterwards the mob is usually just about dead anyway. I kind of like his SC/MBing with it. Only downside is obviously, AoE aggro from it, that can be a problem.

But his regular spells seem to be the worst offenders.

It feels to me like either enmity from dmg was dropped too much (though enmity from atk speed seems intact), or something else was changed with the cap and enmity reduction that's causing these problems.

[Glamdring]

I generally don't have much issue with that, generates a lot of hate and usually gets him attacked, but afterwards the mob is usually just about dead anyway. I kind of like his SC/MBing with it. Only downside is obviously, AoE aggro from it, that can be a problem.

But his regular spells seem to be the worst offenders.

It feels to me like either enmity from dmg was dropped too much (though enmity from atk speed seems intact), or something else was changed with the cap and enmity reduction that's causing these problems.

it seems that enmity from damage inflicted was reduced, a problem if your only method of hate control was dealing damage. but enmity reduction from damage you receive was left in place as was enmity generated by a cure. therefore as the "tank" you have less enmity on the mob in the 1st place, if you've taken enough damage to REQUIRE a heal then the enmity on you has been reduced AND the healer is going to cure with full enmity, thus claiming enmity. The answer, at least for now, is obviously main or sub dancer or a mage job that can heal, or play pld and take care of curing yourself-think Trust Curilla. the Trust problem will be that the healer trusts will likely beat you to self-curing, and short of doing without a whm trust I'm not sure what the answer is. Using Koru or Arciella seem to be good, they heal slower and may be casting something else, giving you time to get that self-cure off. and it holds hate almost as well as an animated flourish now. I can tell you this, doing my job on Pld has gotten a lot easier now.

[AtrixWolfe]

If damage itself across the board does less to generate enmity then I don't see how all these strats with THF tanking will still work. I also don't see how trick attack is supposed to stick hate to anyone since it does it through damage.

[dasva]

I don't think it's really an if... it's fairly obvious to see plus it was in the update notes that they adjusted just dmg enmity and noted the exception of not adjusting cure since the 2 have traditional been somewhat tied together

[AtrixWolfe]

Trick Attack should add some spell like enmity on use then? Or now it is just a damage tool. I get not wanting THF to tank. But then one wonders if not for tanking what other purpose does A+ in evasion serve.

[dasva]

Activating trick attack gives the thf a little bit of enmity but very little. It will still transfer the enmity of the next applicable hit to the tricked player which is nice but it's still the enmity the thf would've gotten from dmg which is much lower now.

[saevel]

Enmity from damage wasn't just lowered it was severely nerfed. Nerfed so hard as to be practically worthless. Enmity reduction from getting smacked was kept the same, enmity from JA's and buffs were kept the same and enmity from cures was kept the same. This is how you can have a melee' that does a 10K WS with about 5K worth of melee damage, the WHM casts a cure and it's all over the WHM. Healers can mitigate this somewhat by utilizing -enmity and tranquil heart, also the melee's can have +enmity in their melee / DT sets to reduce enmity bleed, but most difficult content is going to require a tank. My only beef with this is it's made lower tier content much harder for PUG and folks without top tier gear. Stuff like Delve I and II, which is typically easier content that doesn't require a tank just got a whole lot harder for casual players.