Enough... If you're a paladin then show it. [How to Tank]

[Kyokaku]

Truthfully, i'm a little disgusted with people these days. "Paladin can't tank, Paladin is useless, Paladin fails"

Tbh, the people saying that are the people running around in full pearl, Vit swords, doing nothing but flash.

I'm going to systematically start listing off reasons why some paladins suck and then at the end, i'll wrap it all up with a pretty bow and explain how i hold hate even off of empyrean mnks (relative - once enmity caps the monster does the turn around dance, but you can keep your hate there)

1) Vit Swords

What the fuck were people thinking. Seriously. First of all, it is common knowledge that most NMs, at least MAJOR nms, that deal a considerable ammount of damage to any player must be tanked /nin. Therefore, the purpose is to not get it. But something dosen't seem to click with people, they full time the PDT-10% swords and then cast utsusemi ichi. People thats like buying a bike tire for your car - it dosen't make sense. THE GOAL IS NOT TO GET HIT, AND USE REPRISAL TO ALREADY REDUCE DAMAGE TO GET ANOTHER SHADOW CAST UP. But go ahead, continue to full time PDT swords.

"Kyo, PDT swords are best on /war"

Liars. If its such a small NM, that you don't need /nin, then the only chance you stand to retrieve hate is through damage. A PDT- sword won't give you damage - hell - a joyeuse will give you more damage. Here's the simple fact kids, if emnity is capped for a mnk, that mnk will always be a target, even if your emnity is capped too. here's another fun fact kids, Provoke is VE and the hate from it decays. Damage over time, DOT, dosen't. Especially if you're over there spamming vorpal blade for 200 and the mnk is getting 4k a ws.

2) You Need to Fight Damage Dealers - With Damage.

If you read the top post, people should know by now, that im eluding to making your paladin do damage. There is 2 ways to accomplish this, and both end up the same - Chant Du Cygne. "Kyo, not everyone will get empyrean". Then try harder. The first 90% of the weapons are easy as hell. Camping level 22 NMs is just annoying, VNM stages in most regional zones are easy as hell now, and then you can opt out of doing Briarius and Sobek and do WOE! If you don't get WOE that sucks for everyone else, just enter and lot coins. (though for the sake of my sanity, please try to learn and contribute).

Why put so much work into CDC? it is a godsend.

Most Paladins will use Atmas that stack HP and VIT. I use RR VV and Omnipotent. My HP is around 3400 with merit abyssites, and most people immediatly think "eh?". My Crit rate is capped at 76 dex +200 and i promise you my fstr is close. So every ws i do, i do around 3000 damage. I outdamage most samurais and dragoons, hell even the poorly geared war.

/nin or /war, it dosent matter. My WS damage remains constant, and tbh, i like /war more (fencer is fun.). And if you CANNOT POSSIBLY EVER try to obtain this ws, Vorpal Blade with these atma's will still do a very solid 800-1200. Its not as good, but fuck, it will still do damage and the mob will know your name. "Kyo, the other dd will cap thier hate too though, that kinda defeats the point of tanking" Yes my friend... until bullet #3

3) How hate loss works

When someone takes damage, they lose hate. Thats the basic of all hate loss in the game. So when Mr. Samurai gets smacked for 500, that monster, if you've been doing what i said to do, will turn back to you. This is where PLD merits and gear come into play. Guardian, with sentinel active, essentially makes you need to take 10x more damage for that same hate loss to occur that just occured on that sam. Additionally, through Creed +2 and Accessories, even LESS emnity is lost through physical damage. The hate cap is the same for all things, but you can drastically reduce what you lose yourself, making even jobs capped at the hate ceiling lose hate, and then the mob turn back to face you.

Creed Armor +2 is amazing. Even the +1 set is amazing. It's good for TP and it's good for Idle. This is something you need to invest in, Perle isn't going to cut it.

You Also need to get a WS set for your ws of choice. Vorpal Blade = STR CDC = Dex. Pick a ws and use it. Don't be the pld that spams spirits within or god damn atonement. Inside of abyssea - there is not point.

4) My Conclusion

I hope i didn't offend anyone. And sorry for poor grammer, typing this on a smartphone on a bus lol. Paladin has been one of my favorite jobs and i hate to see it be ruined by those who are unintelligent of the game facts. Please - I meant no offense, and any comments are welcome :)

[Cream_Soda]

"Paladin can't tank, Paladin is useless, Paladin fails"

how i hold hate even off of empyrean mnks

Again, holding hate has nothing to do with why pld is useless. If a job that can contribute more to the fight can hold hate off the people who can't afford to have hate, then there is no need for a pld.

What is the point in having a pld when if the pld were not there, the mnk would have no reasonable expectation of death and they deal more damage in comparison?

CDC, you're not out dd'ing an emp WS dd who is worth a damn, so what is the point in using pld to tank over them?

[Kyokaku]

People seem to praise Mnk.

Paladin, with /nin and capped shield, has arguably the same damage migitation abilities you'd find on the mnk (guard and perfect counter = shield skill and reprisal)

Don't doubt the strength of CDC. The only jobs that have ever blown my damage apart is Ukko's Fury and the best of empyrean Mnks. And even then CDC is a very good competitor.

Mnk also can't cure itself. Cure 4 is horrible, and its not even worth casting sometimes, but in a pinch Cure 4 can withstand a lot and help you hold on just a little bit longer.

I also want to mention that Paladin with merits has more chances to get hate back -quickly-, instead of over time, in the event its lost to say a BLM or another DD. MNK really just has boost and ws's, the prime reason why in salvage if you pulled hate off the mnk someone was gonna die so they could get the hate back.

[Cream_Soda]

Don't doubt the strength of CDC. The only jobs that have ever blown my damage apart is Ukko's Fury and the best of empyrean Mnks. And even then CDC is a very good competitor.
I know exactly how strong CDC is. I don't doubt it as a ws.

Mnk is king at a little something called DoT. even if you did 100% identical average ws dmg, you're still not coming anywhere close to a mnk in damage.


Mnk also can't cure itself. Cure 4 is horrible, and its not even worth casting sometimes, but in a pinch Cure 4 can withstand a lot and help you hold on just a little bit longer.
How often do you get into this "pinch"? I'd assume you're referring to an oshi moment, which shouldn't be happening often. That being said, Mnk can chakra. Granted, its only every 5 mins, you did say "pinch". (on top of that, its instant rather than having a casting time).


I also want to mention that Paladin with merits has more chances to get hate back -quickly-, instead of over time, in the event its lost to say a BLM or another DD. MNK really just has boost and ws's, the prime reason why in salvage if you pulled hate off the mnk someone was gonna die so they could get the hate back.
It doesn't take long at all to cap CE. Granted, you lose hate, it should be back on you by your next melee round or once the person who took hate gets hit once or twice. Not to mention that salvage was mostly /nin. /war offers provoke for some quick VE, if ever needed.

[Kyokaku]

It doesn't take long at all to cap CE. Granted, you lose hate, it should be back on you by your next melee round or once the person who took hate gets hit once or twice. Not to mention that salvage was mostly /nin. /war offers provoke for some quick VE, if ever needed.

On big NMs, and there are few, but lets say Apademak, how viable is /war for a mnk?
Adjaza or w\e? Or even Dragua?

Even with Refresh atmas on your whms, /war is suicide and will require shadows on any tank.
Also on bigger things, hate is easier to lose and harder to cap CE where the mobs defense is so high.
Paladin is a better tank in this case.

[Cream_Soda]

Apademak, /war works but /nin works better because of enstun.

Dragua and Adjaza, you can /war just fine.

I'm not even sure why Dragua is on that list. It's viable enough to /war where you can duo it (or dual box in my case) mnk + whm w/ no other support.

s far as the mobs having higher defense, they also take less dmg from magic attacks and such, so those blms or w/e will be capping their hate more slowly as well, so proportionally.

[Kyokaku]

I'm not even sure why Dragua is on that list.
Thats not supposed to be dragua, thats me thinking 2 things and typing half of each. Dragua is a pretty big joke.

I've had bad bad bad experiences with Adjaza gone wrong, particularly due to poor mage support though.

The case being, i'm not arguing paladin is the king of anything. it does need updates and it does need refinement. But i'm saying to paladins out there that you can still tank. It is possible, even if it isn't the best at it.

[Cream_Soda]

I never said they couldn't tank. I just said there's no reason to have them tank since that even if they can, there's other jobs that can also do it and eal more damage in the process.

Pld can tank just fine, its just a dedicated tank is not required, no reason not to use one that can also push out the numbers.

[Zumi]

Current endgame NMs in abyssea can not kill melee very easily since they have so much survivability already . So therefore the idea of having a dedicated tank who most likely do far less dps then a monk or war ect is then unfavorable.

It mobs could actually kill melee easily 1 or 2 shot then yes people would want a tank class again that has great survivability. So until SE starts making content that can't be tanked, by mnk, war, thf, whatever generic melee then people will still find PLD to be not wanted.

Using WoW as an example if your Paladin tank dies the mob will then proceed to 1 or 2 shot everyone else in the group causing a wipe unless the boss is very low on HP because dps in that game have little survivability.

SE would have to do something extreme like this to make tanks useful in FFXI.

[Greatguardian]

The problem with that is that non-Ochain PLD doesn't really get more survivability than anyone else in FFXI. Having access to heavy armor isn't doing anything for them when Defense is worthless. Shield blocks reduce significantly less damage than Counters, as well. The activation rate caps lower than counter, you still receive damage unlike Counter, and you don't damage the foe when you're hit (bar Reprisal) unlike Counter. MNK can cap PDT and MDT as well.

Even if they were to make NMs stronger, it wouldn't really help PLD unless they got a huge survivability boost to go along with it. However, there isn't much that can be done to increase PLD's survivability in the context of existing game mechanics.

Job traits to give static -DT? That's all well and good, but when other jobs can just cap PDT and MDT using gear anyways it's not a big deal (and makes Aegis even more worthless). A Counterstanced MNK in -50% PDT is still going to take less damage than a Sword/Shield PLD in -50% PDT.

The only thing I can think of to make this at all feasible is creating new NMs with extremely high Damage ratings but extremely low Attack ratings. A high-defense player would then take little to no damage, while a low-defense player (Berserk'd anything, Counterstance Mnk, etc) would get smashed if they got hit. This NM would also need to have obnoxiously high Evasion in order to keep MNK from reaching their Counter cap as well; this serves to emphasize PLD's JA/Spell hate tools even more.

But really, what the heck kind of NM is that? Melee DDs wouldn't be able to do anything to it. We'd flash back to 2005 and throw armies of RNGs and BLMs at it till it keels over. PLD being unable to properly melee for any Enmity would also cause them to lose hate if a DD capped TE between recasts, resulting in Blm/Rng trampling. I doubt anyone wants to go back to 2005.

[azjazo]

You all have a point, but the thing is, even if theres a way, a difficult difficult and tedious way to be useful on PLD again, there is a very clear unbalance on effort/reward/usefullness compared to most other jobs at this stage.

That you can paint the monalisa on MS Paint with a mouse taking a lot of time and effort and talent, doesnt balace out that others have photoshop and a tablet. Sure, some people with paint and mouse will get better results than some with photoshop and tablet, but the dissadvantage and final work will show differences...

[Shakuzen]

T I outdamage most samurais and dragoons, hell even the poorly geared war.



o.o how can you possibly outdamage a dragoon? hitting for 600, jumping for 2k and WSing for 4k?

[Arcon]

o.o how can you possibly outdamage a dragoon? hitting for 600, jumping for 2k and WSing for 4k?

A very good empyrean PLD can't outdamage either of these jobs, even averagely geared, with the right Atmas. Maybe on par with an average SAM, if it's a great PLD, but that's about it. A decent SAM will beat it hands down.

I don't see the point in getting upset over the fact that PLD is a redundant job inside Abyssea, considering it's just one event that's about to be in the past. If this imbalance persists through the endgame content, then you should complain, but right now it's kinda pointless. As I was gonna say in another thread, but my session timed out and didn't wanna bother to rewrite it, PLD doesn't need to be fixed, the game needs to be fixed. Enmity issues with inherently higher damage numbers make it impossible for PLD to keep hate off any decent DD. I'm curious to see what SE does with the next update, if they make mobs that won't allow such high damage numbers, or go about some other way to adjust enmity generation, something definitely needs to be done.

[Caesaris]

I don't think new NM's are the key.

The game mechanics have to change. I don't care how used to things we all are, in order for PLD's to become great tanks again, the mechanics will have to change. Creating a new zone where the mobs are more friendly to PLD tanks is a pacifier for an even greater problem. The problem isn't the monsters, it's the PLD. Abyssea is a unique place, and nothing that we were used to doing outside of there is going to make sense. PLD's need better traits and abilities. We either need to DO more damage, or take less damage... period! Maybe if we had a trait that could grab hate like Provoke, without subbing WAR, then we could use other subs that could give us a greater Damage, or have better survivability. PLD/MNK maybe?

Remember our history people... creating new zones didn't make BST better in Sea! BST got better in SEA when the mechanics of the BST jug pet changed. Mechanics must change.

[vileragnorok]

ive done my fair share of complaining pld is far from usless in abbyi currently use pld daily in abby.i must say very productivlyproblem i see is empty vessles with a shield skill 220 lv 90 on the feild wondering why they suck.pld has always had to work hard to be a shining star on the battlefeild,with pld being my only lv 90 job for 2 years ive put alot of time and effort in aquiring the gear to be succesful,macros still need to be used for that extreme emnity boost to reach cap and stay there,plds need to prove themselves these days.there has been many times ive seen mnk,nin eva tanks fail and ive taken over for the win,you need to earn your place stop complaining, have you seen pld with emp shield its lol on the damage you take. the gear is there go get it,keep in mind old gear is still required as macro peices

[Darka]

here's another fun fact kids, Provoke is VE and the hate from it decays. Damage over time, DOT, dosen't. Especially if you're over there spamming vorpal blade for 200 and the mnk is getting 4k a ws.


I was agreeing till you touched on enmity mechanics. Any action generates both VE and CE, CE being retardedly easy to cap, and it doesn't decay unless you get hit.
VE decays a 60VE/second, Provoke generates both, and loses VE, damage generates both, and loses VE. The MNK keeps hate longer because he attacks faster.

Also, Guardian sucks. It doesn't reduce the natural decay of Enmity, it still decays at 60VE/second. What it does do is reduce enmity from damage taken during the Sentinel effect, which, is already extremely low because you're taking almost no damage already. Guardian merits are a joke.

Enmity decay is in effect always for VE, CE is only reduced via damage taken, and it's low.

Also, lol'd at out damaging DRGs, those be some god awful players if that's true. CDC is nice, but it doesn't fix PLD, it just moves them from doing no damage to some damage.

[Arcon]

I was agreeing till you touched on enmity mechanics. Any action generates both VE and CE, CE being retardedly easy to cap, and it doesn't decay unless you get hit.
VE decays a 60VE/second, Provoke generates both, and loses VE, damage generates both, and loses VE.

[.. ]

Enmity decay is in effect always for VE, CE is only reduced via damage taken, and it's low.

You're kinda right. While all actions produce at least 1 CE, very many actions actually produce just that, 1 CE, Provoke being one of them. Practically, it can be considered no CE. To cap CE on a Lv95 mob, you'd need to deal 8k damage. To cap VE, you'd need less than 2.7k. Now you could mention VE decay, which is practically moot, because you can do that much damage with one WS (even as PLD).

So while gaining CE is a lot harder than gaining VE, losing CE is very easy. While it isn't constant, like VE, taking 1k damage would lower your CE by 750, assuming Lv90 and 2400 HP, more outside of Abyssea. To lose that much VE, you'd have to wait over 12 seconds. Which, if you're still engaged to a mob, won't happen in the first place, because your attacks will keep VE higher than that regardless. It wouldn't be so easy to keep it capped outside of Abyssea, but it would take a lot longer there in the first place (over 20 seconds normally).

Either way, VE is a lot easier to cap and to maintain, despite its constant decay. As long as you deal more than 16 damage per second, your VE will be permanently capped. And I believe even a PLD, outside of Abyssea, can still pull that off.

[Darka]

What's your point? CE being DMG*1.25, never decaying outside of DMG taken, which for the vast majority of jobs is pretty low due to damage mitigation forms, like Utsusemi, Counterstance, MDT/PDT, whatever. Enmity loss from damage taken is pretty low in the grand scheme of things, and still fast to recover. So the CE loss of 750 is recovered from doing 600 damage, that's like 3-4 crit hits for most jobs, less for others.

You damage/second is off too, 60VE/second is in real time, players don't swing once per second, so it's going to be /focusing/ on the one hitting more often. Even if both are capped. Hence why the problem with PLD isn't capping enmity, it's that other jobs have such potent ways to mitigate damage that they just don't lose enmity.

[Arcon]

What's your point?

Just saying that VE is easier to cap and maintain.


CE being DMG*1.25, never decaying outside of DMG taken, which for the vast majority of jobs is pretty low due to damage mitigation forms, like Utsusemi, Counterstance, MDT/PDT, whatever. Enmity loss from damage taken is pretty low in the grand scheme of things, and still fast to recover. So the CE loss of 750 is recovered from doing 600 damage, that's like 3-4 crit hits for most jobs, less for others.

You damage/second is off too, 60VE/second is in real time, players don't swing once per second, so it's going to be /focusing/ on the one hitting more often. Even if both are capped. Hence why the problem with PLD isn't capping enmity, it's that other jobs have such potent ways to mitigate damage that they just don't lose enmity.

That's debateable, I don't see enmity as paladin's problem at all. Anyone, even mages, can cap and maintain both forms of enmity if they try, PLD is no exception. But why argue that not losing CE is what makes other jobs keep enmity better, when you said that losing enmity is easily restored with a few hits?

All I'm saying is, losing CE is what makes the mob run away, because it takes a few hits to recover. Losing VE is almost instantly recovered. Often not even a second passes, even if you have a higher than 1s delay. And some jobs are capable hitting faster too (most actually).

[Darka]

I didn't say capping or maintaining capped enmity is PLDs problem at all(though there's a lot of room for debate after factoring uncapped attack/dDEX etc into the equation). The problem with PLD is that due to other jobs capping hate, and mitigating DMG as well as or better than PLD is the problem . It means they can tank, hold hate, take low DMG, and output more DMG.
Basically what Cream Soda said first page, if other jobs can mitigate DMG as well as PLD, whilst outputting more DMG than a PLD, why use one?

Anyway I'm not getting into a debate about why to/not use PLD, I'd love PLD to return myself, I was responding to OP who said VE doesn't deteriorate from Provoke which is incorrect. That and Guardian is awful.

[Arcon]

Anyway I'm not getting into a debate about why to/not use PLD, I'd love PLD to return myself, I was responding to OP who said VE doesn't deteriorate from Provoke which is incorrect. That and Guardian is awful.

Couldn't agree more.

[Mordanthos]

When shadows absorb dmg, you lose enmity just as if you took dmg. Been proven on the All about enmity thread on some test site. Counter and retaliate dont cause enmity either. So shadows and counters dont help enmity. Shadows actually hurt enmity, where as 0 dmg causes no enmity loss what so ever. And a proper pld is going to be taking 0 dmg 8/10 hits at least at a minimum. IDK wtf you guys have been seeing from paladins, but when i tank i take 0-60 dmg tops from just about anything, and to sit here and say that 450 defense has no difference between 45 defense from counterstance is just the most retarded thing ive heard. Besides, if a paladin has 450 defense, they should delete there character, my defense is 850, and 909 with taco, let me see your faggot mnk take less dmg than my paladin anywhere.. The Tier 4 VNM outside abyssea hits me for 20, i mean come on, let me see your *** mnk survive that T4 VNM for more than 15 seconds. And I shouldn't even be that generous.

[Zagen]

When shadows absorb dmg, you lose enmity just as if you took dmg. Been proven on the All about enmity thread on some test site. Counter and retaliate dont cause enmity either. So shadows and counters dont help enmity. Shadows actually hurt enmity, where as 0 dmg causes no enmity loss what so ever. And a proper pld is going to be taking 0 dmg 8/10 hits at least at a minimum. IDK wtf you guys have been seeing from paladins, but when i tank i take 0-60 dmg tops from just about anything, and to sit here and say that 450 defense has no difference between 45 defense from counterstance is just the most retarded thing ive heard. Besides, if a paladin has 450 defense, they should delete there character, my defense is 850, and 909 with taco, let me see your *** mnk take less dmg than my paladin anywhere.. The Tier 4 VNM outside abyssea hits me for 20, i mean come on, let me see your *** mnk survive that T4 VNM for more than 15 seconds. And i shouldnt even be that generous.

Shadows cost a straight 80CE loss which is nothing like taking damage... (http://kanican.livejournal.com/31613.html) At 1300 HP (nice average accounting for all races) that's the same as 57 damage. This is why PLD/NIN is so popular and has been for a long time. I would love to see proof of the contrary, so a link to that "All about enmity thread" would be great.

Also while a counter generates 0 hate, it also loses 0 hate and does more damage to the monster.

I feel the biggest problem with PLD is a lack of understanding how hate works...

I would love to see proof of you taking 0 dmg outside of Sentinel being fresh on anything above Even Match. A parse would be awesome, or even a picture of your chat log showing you taking 0 damage without Sentinel up. Maybe you have Ochain/Aegis but lets be realisitic a PLD shouldn't NEED those to be a "proper" PLD.

Also you should really run tests on how much damage you take with that "weak 450 def" against any NM in Abyssea and then test again with your 850~909 def you'd be sad when you realize that 400+ def doesn't do a whole lot. After all if def was really all that BLU would take the least amount of damage regardless of sub. Then when you realize that MNK with 100 def (if that) with Counterstance up is not only taking around the same amount of damage (usually less since a counter = 0 damage taken) as you but is also dealing more damage from the increased counter rate you'll realize why PLD tank sucks on easy mobs. For other DD jobs being better than PLD on easy to tank mobs look at the damage dealt difference, a WAR/SAM won't take less damage per hit than a PLD but they will kill the monster a hell of a lot faster which means less damage taken over the fight and a decent WHM will be able to keep either one alive which is why WAR/SAM would be a "better" tank, not only will they keep hate and stay alive but they'll kill stuff faster.

PLD sucks on easy to tank monsters, get monsters that aren't gimped by super buffs (hi atma/cruor) are higher level (hi Voidwatch, for now at least) and you have an area where PLD will excel in, other than that face it while PLD is a functional tank on weak monsters it isn't optimal.

[Cursed]

Shadows cost a straight 80CE loss which is nothing like taking damage... (http://kanican.livejournal.com/31613.html) At 1300 HP (nice average accounting for all races) that's the same as 57 damage. This is why PLD/NIN is so popular and has been for a long time. I would love to see proof of the contrary, so a link to that "All about enmity thread" would be great.

Also while a counter generates 0 hate, it also loses 0 hate and does more damage to the monster.

I feel the biggest problem with PLD is a lack of understanding how hate works...

I would love to see proof of you taking 0 dmg outside of Sentinel being fresh on anything above Even Match. A parse would be awesome, or even a picture of your chat log showing you taking 0 damage without Sentinel up. Maybe you have Ochain/Aegis but lets be realisitic a PLD shouldn't NEED those to be a "proper" PLD.

Also you should really run tests on how much damage you take with that "weak 450 def" against any NM in Abyssea and then test again with your 850~909 def you'd be sad when you realize that 400+ def doesn't do a whole lot. After all if def was really all that BLU would take the least amount of damage regardless of sub. Then when you realize that MNK with 100 def (if that) with Counterstance up is not only taking around the same amount of damage (usually less since a counter = 0 damage taken) as you but is also dealing more damage from the increased counter rate you'll realize why PLD tank sucks on easy mobs. For other DD jobs being better than PLD on easy to tank mobs look at the damage dealt difference, a WAR/SAM won't take less damage per hit than a PLD but they will kill the monster a hell of a lot faster which means less damage taken over the fight and a decent WHM will be able to keep either one alive which is why WAR/SAM would be a "better" tank, not only will they keep hate and stay alive but they'll kill stuff faster.

PLD sucks on easy to tank monsters, get monsters that aren't gimped by super buffs (hi atma/cruor) are higher level (hi Voidwatch, for now at least) and you have an area where PLD will excel in, other than that face it while PLD is a functional tank on weak monsters it isn't optimal.

sums it up pretty much. I am both a vere mnk and an aegis/ochain pld. Inside Abyssea, MNK is just leagues beyond anything else. PLD is leagues behind.

Outside Abyssea, its nice to solo old content on PLD and be there for when shit hits the fan. But that's about it.\

[Lordscyon]

1) Paladin should just get provoke job ability it be nice too not sub war! for provoke.


2) Tarutaru Paladin are the best tanks in the game!

[Unleashhell]

Why is everyone so obsessed with Provoke......

[Greatguardian]

A good 80% of the FFXI population has never played their jobs outside of an EXP or EXP-like scenario. That's the sort of perspective a lot of people work with. As far as Exp goes, many people are used to Pld/War pre-70. I would like to think that they just plain do not know better.

However, with that said, there is absolutely no longer any excuse after reading these forums. Do I need to just make a thread with "Provoke Sucks" in the title so people bother to read it? Jalepeno Franks on a Pogo Stick, the lack of reading grates on you after a while.

[cidbahamut]

Do I need to just make a thread with "Provoke Sucks" in the title so people bother to read it?
Yes.

tenletters

[Caesaris]

ive done my fair share of complaining pld is far from usless in abbyi currently use pld daily in abby.i must say very productivlyproblem i see is empty vessles with a shield skill 220 lv 90 on the feild wondering why they suck.pld has always had to work hard to be a shining star on the battlefeild,with pld being my only lv 90 job for 2 years ive put alot of time and effort in aquiring the gear to be succesful,macros still need to be used for that extreme emnity boost to reach cap and stay there,plds need to prove themselves these days.there has been many times ive seen mnk,nin eva tanks fail and ive taken over for the win,you need to earn your place stop complaining, have you seen pld with emp shield its lol on the damage you take. the gear is there go get it,keep in mind old gear is still required as macro peices

By this thinking, a PLD needs Empyrean or Relic weapons/armor to be useful. I think this hurts the level of skill that many PLD's have built with 'budget' equipment sets. I have 2 Empyrean +1's for my PLD (body and legs), and I do ok tanking. The reason why MNK tanks are more popular than we are isn't because a MNK tanks better than we do... It's because of the hate a MNK is able to keep while a BLM is nuking and a DRG or SAM are doing massive amounts of damage.

No other job needs those rare and EXTREMELY hard to obtain gear/weapons to properly do their job. If you want to go above and beyond what the normal job player does, then yes, you need that high end stuff. All MNK's needed to be good tanks was their natural evasion, damage output, and job abilities. A PLD should be able to do the its job with what we naturally have.

Our evasion skills are a joke, meaning we need more attention during a fight (MNK's, outside of rolls and songs, just need haste and Cure). The damage we do is a joke (I think only dedicated mages have weaker attacks than we do)

[Bumbeen]

Do I need to just make a thread with "Provoke Sucks" in the title so people bother to read it?

Please do kind sir.

[Greatguardian]

I think I will when I'm no longer "doing work". As for Empyrean stuff being "EXTREMELY" difficult? I just don't know what to say to that.

[Zagen]

I think I will when I'm no longer "doing work". As for Empyrean stuff being "EXTREMELY" difficult? I just don't know what to say to that.
If your only job is PLD, you don't have friends who will let you leech gear, refuse to level another job in 1-2 weeks (casual estimate), or are unwilling to setup your own runs for NMs I could see it being "EXTREMELY" difficult... >.>

[Greatguardian]

Swimming is hard if you don't have arms, refuse to learn how to kick, and don't feel like breathing too.

Edit: For clarification, I agree with you. Just pointing out that it's really not an awesome excuse.

[Zagen]

Swimming is hard if you don't have arms, refuse to learn how to kick, and don't feel like breathing too.

Edit: For clarification, I agree with you. Just pointing out that it's really not an awesome excuse.

Haha I got that initially before the edit, just forgot to reply :D

Well played! though if you don't feel like breathing I think you'd never get to worry about swimming

[Sephiran]

To the original poster: I'm just wondering, and I really don't mean to start any fights here, what do you think of the PLD's who delve more into their magic sides? Do you consider them to be destroying the reputation of the job? I just want to know what people think about that sort of thing.

[Himrik]

I love how the original post starts...you want to tank as a PLD ? Be a NIN !

Seriously, PLDs are dead, except for those Empyrean PLDs, how can you take these one as standards ?
Enmity ? Everyone can cap it
Damage taken ? Everyone can withstand this with a good WHM or by being a NIN
Damage Dealt ? Get an Almace and you can compete with poor DDs. You'll be useless with a DD as well-geared as you are.