Do something about the AH and lower level gear????

[chubrocka]

"PLEASE NOT A FLAME POST. IDEA POST"

THIS POST IS IN "NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM ABOUT GILL OR CRAFTING". PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC!

Title "Do something about the AH and lower level gear???? "it is a question not a statement"


If you choose to talk about gill or crafting, please make another thread. If you have constructive insight on how SE can help with stocking AH's or offering other type gear/items with NPC's please voice it.========================================================================================================================================

original post.
Ive really noticed a lot that the AH; no matter where you are looking anymore is becoming empty. The reason why I am making this post is to open discussion on how we can all fix this. I'm not saying I'm not part of the problem myself. After playing so long and keeping all my low level gear to transfer to another low level job. I dont sell it off anymore to purchase other gear for another job. ( that missing of selling the gear is a big part of not finding it lol) When all of us started new we relied on the AH for what we couldn't craft or farm. Well what is gonna help those who started playing 1-6 months ago. The AH is BARE!!
Should SE make low level gear available (more beyond basic)?
Again I'm asking for responses and ideas to help make the game bring in and KEEP new blood.

EDIT ""Look here is another edit. Im not a heavy crafter, im not making this post to say i need this or that. I dont care about your thoughts on crafting or making money.. Im asking for ideas on how to make the AH more full on items We as longtime players have had the luxury of using. The AH is bare. I personally have lost RL friends who started playing the game recent to things that shouldnt be resons for leaving.. One is the lack of things on the AH.. How do we fix it is all im asking.. If we dont come up with ideas that are constructive then how can we ask SE to help us, and how do we expect to keep new players interested and giving there money to SE to help keep our passion going???"""EDIT

Chubrocka

[RaenRyong]

Make it profitable for crafters to craft.

If you don't want to pay more money than what is obviously not attracting sales on AH, don't complain!

[Runespider]

I have numerous high level crafts on various chars, I haven't been near a craft synth since a while after the introduction of Abyssea.

Gil isn't anywhere near as needed as it was, so you don't have dedicated crafters crafting to make money. I haven't spent any money on anything at all except shihei for 6-7 months...aside from a handful of NPC bought scrolls (abyssea chest drops sold to npc more than covered these).

Crafting is dead, currently there is very little point to craft or raise one, many basic armor synths were cheap and stocked well on the AH cause they were skillups synths. Taking a craft up now is stupid since aside from the reasons already mentioned, HQ gear is useless and even one of the old reasons people crafted (making signed +1 armor for themselves) is now pointless cause everything you can synth is crap compared to Aby drops.

So many people leech in Abyssea now where you need no gear that demand is way down anyway.

All these things together means they need to make a new sub category on the AH for NPC sold armors, they aren't screwing the crafters cause nobody makes them or cares anymore. If they destroy the need for gil, allow very popular leeching and kill crafting they need to fix it so players can actually get gear from the NPCs and for the prices to not be stupid high.

[chubrocka]

Make it profitable for crafters to craft.

If you don't want to pay more money than what is obviously not attracting sales on AH, don't complain!



So this is what?? Dont complain? This thread is for ideas not flaming.

[Ayasha]

It's not a flame, it's the truth. Crafters won't make something that isn't worth their time to make. It's simple economics. Demand is low for low tier items, so there's no necessity or incentive to make them. If all you want is for SE to make it easy for you to obtain low level gear, you're barking up the wrong tree. There's two options available: Make it yourself, or offer crafters something worth their while to spend their time to make said item.

There's also PLENTY of alternatives to the AH out there. Bounding Boots and Empress Hairpin (for example) for almost all jobs that can use, and get use out of them will wear them up to the point where the next stage of rare/ex gear is available. AF gear is easy to get, and free (for the most part). And there's plenty of Rare - Rare/Ex weapons that are relatively easy to obtain. The way to fix things isn't to make it EASIER to get gear. The fault falls on the player base for not wanting to put forth the effort to get what they want.

[chubrocka]

It's not a flame, it's the truth. Crafters won't make something that isn't worth their time to make. It's simple economics. Demand is low for low tier items, so there's no necessity or incentive to make them. If all you want is for SE to make it easy for you to obtain low level gear, you're barking up the wrong tree. There's two options available: Make it yourself, or offer crafters something worth their while to spend their time to make said item.

There's also PLENTY of alternatives to the AH out there. Bounding Boots and Empress Hairpin (for example) for almost all jobs that can use, and get use out of them will wear them up to the point where the next stage of rare/ex gear is available. AF gear is easy to get, and free (for the most part). And there's plenty of Rare - Rare/Ex weapons that are relatively easy to obtain. The way to fix things isn't to make it EASIER to get gear. The fault falls on the player base for not wanting to put forth the effort to get what they want.

Jesus christ. What is wrong with you people.. This isnt a bash on anything thread, its not even a CRAFTING thread, its an idea thread to help solve the issue for new players who dont have the same beginnings players have had for years. Get off the crap and come up with IDEAS on how to make it better. No BS of lazy or effort or anything like that. 5 years ago AH was FULL. AH is a ghost town now. I want to play this game for many more years and if we dont find ways to solve things then we will lose the new blood and all of players who have been around since the beginning will have to find another game to play.

[viion]

I really think SE should make an NPC in each of the dedicated areas to sell gear around that level.

For example:
Nations 1-30?
Selbina/Mhaura 10-20
Jeuno 20-50
Norg/Rabao etc 50-60.
and so on

Make them affordable, but reduce the sellable price so people cant exploit.

I find it very difficult to get gear as a new player.

[chubrocka]

I really think SE should make an NPC in each of the dedicated areas to sell gear around that level.

For example:
Nations 1-30?
Selbina/Mhaura 10-20
Jeuno 20-50
Norg/Rabao etc 50-60.
and so on

Make them affordable, but reduce the sellable price so people cant exploit.

I find it very difficult to get gear as a new player.

Thank you for your response and input. To me being a longtime player I like to hear what it will be needed to help keep newer player.... I just hope SE WILL READ IT AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT lol ( hope caps made it easier to see for them lol)

[Vold]

Jesus christ. What is wrong with you people.. This isnt a bash on anything thread, its not even a CRAFTING thread, its an idea thread to help solve the issue for new players who dont have the same beginnings players have had for years. Get off the crap and come up with IDEAS on how to make it better. No BS of lazy or effort or anything like that. 5 years ago AH was FULL. AH is a ghost town now. I want to play this game for many more years and if we dont find ways to solve things then we will lose the new blood and all of players who have been around since the beginning will have to find another game to play.

Your attitude isn't going to help things. You should also follow your own rule of no flaming if you're going to make the rule, which BTW so far you are the only one bashing and flaming. People are telling you, give us a reason to craft the items to fix your problem, and we will. And there is no reason because there's not enough new players to buy the items. Every time I try to sell off skill up items, they never sell so I just end up selling to vendor. The alternative solution is there, SE just needs to lower some prices that were obviously jacked to motivate AH use. Armor and weapon NPCs are everywhere.

New players will have to get over being well geared and just use the standard armors and weapons that they can't obtain from a crafter and NM. If someone gives them crap, give that someone crap right back for not stocking the AH. You're using whatever the hell you can get your hands on. It's not hard to defend yourself for using less than stellar gear these days at level 30. Then, the higher level they get the better off they'll be for AH options. The only reason the AH stayed active all those years for low level armors is because of skill up items, not because crafters were making money. That's not the case anymore and without proper guidance a newbie is just going to quit out of frustration when they're preached to about advanced game mechanics that they shouldn't really even be worried about for some time still.

The only idea I can come up with that isn't stupid is for a NPC to sell whatever it buys from us. It's not worth putting up an item time and again until a rare to see newbie finally picks it up. So let the NPC take care of the problem of getting gear into newbie hands. We're selling off the items already as is to NPCs so we don't need a massive increase in price, but what would be nice is for the weapon and armor NPCs to pay more than others so we are motivated to sell to them and it'll be really simple and easy to tell a person to go to the armor and weapon shop for their needs. They're always marked on the map. It also makes sense that a weapon NPC would pay more for an item that interests them than John Doe down the street that deals with cooking would pay. As a matter of fact John Doe cooker should never actually pay period for a weapon but that's a whole other debate of what makes sense and player willingness to run out of their way to sell stuff.

[chubrocka]

The only idea I can come up with that isn't stupid is for a NPC to sell whatever it buys from us. It's not worth putting up an item time and again until a rare to see newbie finally picks it up. So let the NPC take care of the problem of getting gear into newbie hands. We're selling off the items already as is to NPCs so we don't need a massive increase in price, but what would be nice is for the weapon and armor NPCs to pay more than others so we are motivated to sell to them and it'll be really simple and easy to tell a person to go to the armor and weapon shop for their needs. They're always marked on the map. It also makes sense that a weapon NPC would pay more for an item that interests them than John Doe down the street that deals with cooking would pay. As a matter of fact John Doe cooker should never actually pay period for a weapon but that's a whole other debate of what makes sense and player willingness to run out of their way to sell stuff.


Now this part of your posting is very good and its an idea on how to fix the issue that so many new players are running into

[RAIST]

I really think SE should make an NPC in each of the dedicated areas to sell gear around that level.

For example:
Nations 1-30?
Selbina/Mhaura 10-20
Jeuno 20-50
Norg/Rabao etc 50-60.
and so on

Make them affordable, but reduce the sellable price so people cant exploit.

I find it very difficult to get gear as a new player.

These options are already present...just need to take the time to find them.

Starter nations have all manner of gear available from levels 1-55 from NPC's, some of which can be upgraded easily by a crafter (yourself or friend) to make them a higher level piece (for example, level 7 leather gear upgrades to level 15, or level 30, etc, and level 10 CP upgrades to 15, level 20 upgrades to level 25, etc.). You also can still get some decent gear off mobs (as mentioned earlier), some of which is also upgradable via crafting.

The problem isn't the lack of availability, it is the lack of research and exploration on the players. In case you are unable to figure it out, here's some links to get you started:

Bastok CP gear:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Bastok_Conquest_Points_Items

A few Bastok Merchants:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Zemedars
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Numa
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Zhikkom

That's just one NPC from each of Bastok's zones--each of those stores has more than one NPC, each with a different list of items. Each city (even Jueno and the outliying areas of Mhaura, Selbina, Khazaam, Tavnazia, etc.) havfe vendors selling gear and consumable items/crafting materials.

The AH's will be merging soon, so the gear you aren't seeing in your starter city that may be available in other AH's will soon become available to you via the unified AH. Some may find they can make a spot of gil again listing NPC gears available only in their nation and listing it on the AH (some still do this with the level 7 gear, or upgrade it to something like lizard gear and AH it).

Couple all that with the fact that you level twice as fast now outside of abyssea due to the recent XP/FoV tweaks--you don't need to upgrade your gear constantly now. You can easily make a set of gear last 7 levels (or more now, depending on the job/gear). Once you hit @level 60-69 gear (which is still available on the AH), you can pretty much wear most of that (maybe mixed in with some AF) until you hit 78 for the "free" Abyssea gears.

[Greatguardian]

Make it profitable for crafters to craft.

If you don't want to pay more money than what is obviously not attracting sales on AH, don't complain!

^ This a thousand times over.

I can craft plenty of low level gear. I don't do it though. Why? Because it's a waste of my time to go hunting for materials and spend 5k to make an armor piece, to put on the AH with a 500g fee (taking up one of my AH slots), when people are just going to complain to high hell if I charge any more than 2k.

RMT are dead. Because of this, the only source for basic materials is other players. Because other players don't go around and harvest nearly as much as RMT did, the supply for these basic materials went down and the prices went up. However, when crafters tried to raise the price of armor to coincide with the price of materials, people flipped shit.

The solution to this is twofold:

1) More low level players need to supply the AH with crafting materials if you expect crafters to make low level gear. We are not going to go out and spend 2 hours mining in Zeruhn just to make gear that sells for 5k.

2) Players need to be willing to pay reasonable prices for armor. I promise, crafters are not trying to jack prices up to rip you off and make 500% profits (at least, most aren't). The majority of price increases on gear come from price increases in materials. It is absolutely not worth my time to craft gear when I am taking a 50% loss by doing so; especially when I can make plenty of gil doing other things instead.

If people are not willing to both supply crafters with materials and to pay for both the materials and the crafter's time (which does include opportunity cost, we could be doing other things if we want gil), then sales will not happen.

[RAIST]

^ This a thousand times over.

I can craft plenty of low level gear. I don't do it though. Why? Because it's a waste of my time to go hunting for materials and spend 5k to make an armor piece, to put on the AH with a 500g fee (taking up one of my AH slots), when people are just going to complain to high hell if I charge any more than 2k.

RMT are dead. Because of this, the only source for basic materials is other players. Because other players don't go around and harvest nearly as much as RMT did, the supply for these basic materials went down and the prices went up. However, when crafters tried to raise the price of armor to coincide with the price of materials, people flipped shit.

The solution to this is twofold:

1) More low level players need to supply the AH with crafting materials if you expect crafters to make low level gear. We are not going to go out and spend 2 hours mining in Zeruhn just to make gear that sells for 5k.

2) Players need to be willing to pay reasonable prices for armor. I promise, crafters are not trying to jack prices up to rip you off and make 500% profits (at least, most aren't). The majority of price increases on gear come from price increases in materials. It is absolutely not worth my time to craft gear when I am taking a 50% loss by doing so; especially when I can make plenty of gil doing other things instead.

If people are not willing to both supply crafters with materials and to pay for both the materials and the crafter's time (which does include opportunity cost, we could be doing other things if we want gil), then sales will not happen.

or they could... idk.. take the initiative and directly provide the materials they get off mobs to the crafters in the LS. We are constantly seeing people in the shell ask if anyone has WW leveled to make shihei. They make/provide the ink/parchment/crystals. The usual fee is one stack of the results to use/AH.

I also leveled cooking/synergy. The BST in shell continually send me mats to make their pets. Takes me a few minutes to make them a stack (two synths tops). Ask for help sometime, you might be surprised...

[Kazen]

Pretty much what GG said, if you want people to put gear on AH then you need to provide mats to either the crafters themselves or on the AH. I have enough money in this stage of the game that I don't need gil, however, I will still craft so my money doesn't decline from the purchase of consumables. Although this presents a problem in itself, seeing as I don't need money I refuse to farm materials so I won't craft stuff unless the items I need to do the craft are on AH. I also won't craft low level gear unless I can make a profit that I feel is worthwhile.

[viion]

These options are already present...just need to take the time to find them.

Starter nations have all manner of gear available from levels 1-55 from NPC's, some of which can be upgraded easily by a crafter (yourself or friend) to make them a higher level piece (for example, level 7 leather gear upgrades to level 15, or level 30, etc, and level 10 CP upgrades to 15, level 20 upgrades to level 25, etc.). You also can still get some decent gear off mobs (as mentioned earlier), some of which is also upgradable via crafting.

The problem isn't the lack of availability, it is the lack of research and exploration on the players. In case you are unable to figure it out, here's some links to get you started:

Bastok CP gear:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Bastok_Conquest_Points_Items

A few Bastok Merchants:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Zemedars
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Numa
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Zhikkom

That's just one NPC from each of Bastok's zones--each of those stores has more than one NPC, each with a different list of items. Each city (even Jueno and the outliying areas of Mhaura, Selbina, Khazaam, Tavnazia, etc.) havfe vendors selling gear and consumable items/crafting materials.

The AH's will be merging soon, so the gear you aren't seeing in your starter city that may be available in other AH's will soon become available to you via the unified AH. Some may find they can make a spot of gil again listing NPC gears available only in their nation and listing it on the AH (some still do this with the level 7 gear, or upgrade it to something like lizard gear and AH it).

Couple all that with the fact that you level twice as fast now outside of abyssea due to the recent XP/FoV tweaks--you don't need to upgrade your gear constantly now. You can easily make a set of gear last 7 levels (or more now, depending on the job/gear). Once you hit @level 60-69 gear (which is still available on the AH), you can pretty much wear most of that (maybe mixed in with some AF) until you hit 78 for the "free" Abyssea gears.

I saw this but just a few things

1. The prices are ridiculously stupid. They were most likely set high so people wouldnt buy here rather than crafters. But now theres no one crafting these item and the prices are still high, its a lost cause.

2. Conquest points are hard to earn to be spending on gear and you need the missions done, which can be tricky when no one is helping any-more unless you're very lucky to find help, a lot of new players can be easily stuck prior to rank 3.

3. Crafting currently has zero appeal for new players, infact in my entire 5 years playing prior to quitting I never crafted once and I don't now as it just takes too much time and I'm a casual player.

4. It isn't much about no gear on starter AH's its about the whole scene. There is lacking amounts of gear anywhere even Jeuno and the gear that is in, is usually over priced due to low quantities and a greedy player base (but that's just life).

Now it is true you do level quite fast compared to before but I was stuck in level 1 gear all the way to 22+ until someone donated their old gear to me, a full set! I had collected 30k and people were selling low level gear for almost same price as venders! I could upgrade my weapon and buy body/legs with that, if I'm lucky.

Those who are not new or not returning have absolute no idea how difficult it is for a new player. You think its all just a breeze "do this, get this and viola!" but its difficult.

no gil
no skills
no spells
no armor
no parties
no chocobo
no teleporting
no friends
no linkshell
ziltch.

Also just to put it out there, a game shouldn't force you off game in order to figure out stuff. I love clopedia but thats because im a returning player and know of it, but a new player will not know it and will become frustrated being in this crappy situation

[Kazen]

Oh please it's a joke to make gil atm. I know when I buy simple materials off AH because I'm lazy the prices are gouged to a huge amount. I was paying 5k/ea recently for Tiger Hides which is something a low level person could farm easily. I also had to pay 35k for a stack of silver ingots recently, something that you can make fairly easily using a vendor if you actually need to make a little money. Money is so much easier to make now than it was in the past; new people complaining about prices don't know how things were. I'll admit prices have went up, however, so has the price of everything else including what can be sold by a new character.

[viion]

Oh please it's a joke to make gil atm. I know when I buy simple materials off AH because I'm lazy the prices are gouged to a huge amount. I was paying 5k/ea recently for Tiger Hides which is something a low level person could farm easily. I also had to pay 35k for a stack of silver ingots recently, something that you can make fairly easily using a vendor if you actually need to make a little money. Money is so much easier to make now than it was in the past; new people complaining about prices don't know how things were. I'll admit prices have went up, however, so has the price of everything else including what can be sold by a new character.

Tiger Hide = 1k my server Drops from level 25 tigers in Jugner with 10% droprate, so I'd have to kill 10 to make 1k (And thats just statistically not guaranteed). I'd also have to be level 30 to kill effectively as even at 20 they 3 shotted me. Remember, new player has NO money, NO gear, NO skills, most likely NO or low Subjob, Low level weapon. etc. Extremely difficult to kill tigers when you're so unbelievably weak as a new character.

For the Silver Ingots I'd need the money to get goldsmithing to 20.

Both stupid ways to make money

[Greatguardian]

Crystals. Gardening. It's not hard at all to scan FFXIAH for things that sell well at decent prices on your server that you can farm at low levels. Beehive chips were fairly good money way back when.

Leveling low tier crafts is a joke. If you care enough, you can just harvest/mine to get materials to take them to 20~ish without any issue while making a profit. It may take longer, but if you won't pursue any other means to get gil then it's better than nothing.

[Kazen]

Wind Crystals 4k/stack
Grass cloth 5k/stack
Grass thread 4k/stack
Silk thread 6k/stack
Copper Ingots 10k/stack
Bronze ingots 5k/stack
Darksteel ore 8k/each
Gold ore 7k/each
Beehive chips 4k/stack

[viion]

I like how you instantly refer to FFXIAH, as stated before. A NEW player will NOT know these sites, and shouldn't be forced OFF GAME in order to progress. Its just stupid. You should be able to find it all out in game very easily, making a new player not feel frustrated.

Yes beehive chips are good, but does a new player know this!? NO so its pointless.

You can keep posting "here is my way woot", is your post on some kind of billboard ingame that everyone can see? No so its pointless. I personally know ways to make gil when im further on, but thats because i have years of experience and knowledge, but as i keep saying a new player doesnt and the game is unwelcoming and unfriendly to those.

You say harvest/mine, no one is selling the mining tools and how do I get money for those!? lol. As they'll break often, plus its extremely time consuming and I garauntee you most new players are casual. hardcore players are either already playing or not playing (thus playing other games).

Crystals are good, but just to point out, I collected 15 stacks, which could have made me a nice 75k, but NOPE because the MISSIONS need them, so I've lost them all in order to just do the missions. So until I'm like rank 6 crystals are not much of a selling point for me unless I dont plan on doing any missions, but personally I want to so I'm forced with a penalty.

But even 75k doesn't stretch far. Remember: Low Qauntity of items meaning less items, less choice, and higher prices as demand is still medium.

[Kazen]

Funny I didn't use FFXIAH, I looked directly on the AH I'm currently standing at to see what things that drop from low level mobs I could farm. FFXIAH/wiki didn't exist when I started this game and I did the exact same thing I did just now to find out what to farm.

As for mining tools, who buys those from AH? You buy them from a vendor which is located in each of the starting cities. When I started this game I farmed silk to buy mining tools which I then took to Zeruhn and Gusgen to make a much larger profit. While mining I leveled my smithing to make iron/bronze/etc ingots as I farmed to further increase my profits. I mined every time I played for about 1hr. I'm only posting this for fun but Iron Ingots 40k/stack.

[Fiarlia]

Beehive Chips, crystals (don't forget Signet!), Silk Thread, Wild Onions, Gardening seeds (to sell, as a new account has crap gardening for 90 days), Sheep Skins, gil from beastmen mobs (may not be much but every little bit helps), some scrolls.

Some NM's exist in the starter (or near starter) cities that have (some) good drops, either for selling or using.

There's also some rewarding quests that can be done easily. There's also fishing, crafting and synergy and HELM.

All of this is off the top of my head without much thought at all, and all contained within either the starting cities or their immediate outdoor areas (Sarutabaruta, Gustaberg and Ronfaure) Most is applicable to people under level 10, certain NM's may be an exception. There's plenty of ways to make gil in the low levels, despite how much you (or anyone else) may or may not like the methods. Some of the stuff you may have to look up and do a bit of research, or perhaps prerequisite quests (also involving research).

Low levels for new players was never about speeding through the levels as fast as you could (if you wanted to gear yourself and be good), I have no idea why people seem to think this has changed. And while it's true that buying from the NPC's may be more expensive, leveling is also exceedingly faster than it used to be, making the minor incremental upgrades you'd get every few levels less important, as it may be better to wait a tad longer for something (comparatively) cheaper and/or more useful. And those who say it may be more dangerous to solo.... tackle slightly lower level FoV pages.

[viion]

Umm Kazen, obviously I wasnt talking to you, read above your post.....

this is just getting stupid now, you have existing players thinking its easy "just do this get this" when its easier said than done. No existing player has any idea how difficult it is for a new player and your post all just results in a complete waste because most suggestions are just out of reach for a very long time for new players. Also added onto the list of having absolute nothing, understand the drop rate sucks, to get some gear 20+ by just beehive chips would take 10hours on my server due to bad drop rate and that i'd be in level 1 gear with most likely level 1 weapon, trying to kill and avoid aggro from anything else (yagudos for example)

Ya'll like spoilt rich folk who dont realise how tough the poor life is.

And FYI there are much-much easier ways to make a lot more gil than suggestions being said, but all require knowledge and websites, which a new player wouldn't have and shouldn't be forced to use (Respectively)

Not to mention Playonline site still has no direct link to the forum (other thanthe news post which will fade away soon) so new players will soon not realise a forum exists and never be able to ask.

If gil was so easy, people wouldnt be requesting changes and asking how to make gil all the god damn time.

[Greatguardian]

Great Scott, players who read community websites have more information on hand than players who don't.

FFXI has always been a community oriented game. It's not going to hold your hand. There is plenty of information out there for those who look for it. No, the game may not link you to ffxiah; but any player with half a brain will.

Anyone can make gil just doing random shit and NPC'ing things. It's an income. If they want to know about better ways to make a more efficient income, they ask other people (who would direct them to community sites), they read community sites, or they try things out for themselves.

Gil is easy to make if you know how. If you don't know how, you look it up. If you don't know where to look, you ask. If you can't ask, you're retarded. I don't care if you're new or not; it's not hard to ask where to find information about the game.

[Gennadi]

Chub dont even bother with "help posts" people here are flame trolling wannabes who think they know everything. This forum is 10% useful 90% of an eye strain.

Just deal with it your way and move on

[chubrocka]

I saw this but just a few things

1. The prices are ridiculously stupid. They were most likely set high so people wouldnt buy here rather than crafters. But now theres no one crafting these item and the prices are still high, its a lost cause.

2. Conquest points are hard to earn to be spending on gear and you need the missions done, which can be tricky when no one is helping any-more unless you're very lucky to find help, a lot of new players can be easily stuck prior to rank 3.

3. Crafting currently has zero appeal for new players, infact in my entire 5 years playing prior to quitting I never crafted once and I don't now as it just takes too much time and I'm a casual player.

4. It isn't much about no gear on starter AH's its about the whole scene. There is lacking amounts of gear anywhere even Jeuno and the gear that is in, is usually over priced due to low quantities and a greedy player base (but that's just life).

Now it is true you do level quite fast compared to before but I was stuck in level 1 gear all the way to 22+ until someone donated their old gear to me, a full set! I had collected 30k and people were selling low level gear for almost same price as venders! I could upgrade my weapon and buy body/legs with that, if I'm lucky.

Those who are not new or not returning have absolute no idea how difficult it is for a new player. You think its all just a breeze "do this, get this and viola!" but its difficult.

no gil
no skills
no spells
no armor
no parties
no chocobo
no teleporting
no friends
no linkshell
ziltch.

Also just to put it out there, a game shouldn't force you off game in order to figure out stuff. I love clopedia but thats because im a returning player and know of it, but a new player will not know it and will become frustrated being in this crappy situation

Man i got to say.... You hit the nail for sure. maybe i should have taken the time to type as much as you did and how you did, but thank you for putting it in the words needed to be said.

[Greatguardian]

If you care that much about using community sites, you can look on the actual auction house and find things that sell frequently for a decent amount of gil and farm them.

What is this? People who don't want to bother learning effective strategies from other people will actually have to apply a modicum of effort to learn some themselves?

Inconceivable.

[chubrocka]

Chub dont even bother with "help posts" people here are flame trolling wannabes who think they know everything. This forum is 10% useful 90% of an eye strain.

Just deal with it your way and move on

GENNADI!!!! nice to see you.... I understand what you mean. Its tough though. There are too few players like you and i left i guess.

This post wasnt a help post but a try to get SE to see what is happening to new players. It was also to reach out for ideas on how to make it better for them also. It seems it turned to "How i make money" and you suck if you cant do it crap.. Well if it gets to one person SE side and they see it, maybe it can make a difference.

I just wish there could be open thought on fixing something, not bashing. Ive only seen what 3 real ideas on how we can improve it....

[RAIST]

I knew about various sites before I even started the game... why? Because I googled the game first before I even bought it just to see how it was doing since I came to it several years late (got the gold Vanadiel combo pack with COP included)--and I got hits on cyclopedia, ZAM, crafting timers, all kinds of stuff in a 10 second search (had a slow PC at the time).

Anyone who plays games on a regular basis and uses either a store/ebay bought game guide or the internet to look anything up about their games would know how to find this kind of information, which I would hazard a guess is most any normal MMO player would be inclined to do. Even if they didn't have anything to guide them, inevitably people in an LS or party would eventually point them to the info online when they started asking questions. To say a new player wouldn't gain access to this info is laughable at best.


1. The prices are ridiculously stupid. They were most likely set high so people wouldnt buy here rather than crafters. But now theres no one crafting these item and the prices are still high, its a lost cause.
Those items can be crafted by the veterans if they would just ask. It may very well cost them the same amount to get the items crafted if they have to purchase the materials to get them crafted by someone. So, either they farm mats to send to a crafter, or they farm the gil to buy things from the AH or NPC. Either way, they still have to fork out either the time or the gil...pee in one hand, poop in the other to see which fills faster scenario.


2. Conquest points are hard to earn to be spending on gear and you need the missions done, which can be tricky when no one is helping any-more unless you're very lucky to find help, a lot of new players can be easily stuck prior to rank

CP is gained at twice the rate as before. You can get 12 points a kill off an EP. If you are in a party killing stuff for upwards of 200 a kill, you are getting over a hundred CP per chain5. CP is not that hard to come by. As for getting rank missions done--you are uncapped all the way to Airship Pass now. Pretty much all you need now is help from one veteran player to get each one done. Are you saying they can't find ONE person in the shell to help? I find that hard to believe. I know we are a tight knit group in my shell... but still, I doubt people are so freaking selfish they won't go help do a fight that only takes 3 minutes in some cases--if so, they may need to look for a new shell.


3. Crafting currently has zero appeal for new players, infact in my entire 5 years playing prior to quitting I never crafted once and I don't now as it just takes too much time and I'm a casual player.
That's just misleading information all around. I sent 3 stacks of ice crystals to an lsmate who needed some gil. By lunchtime the next day, he was at 4 alchemy and had 20k gil in his inbox from selling his wares. Crafting is not hard to skill up to level 30 or so, and if you do it right it pays for itself along the way. 10 Minutes of research saves you a butt-load of time and may net you double the return.


4. It isn't much about no gear on starter AH's its about the whole scene. There is lacking amounts of gear anywhere even Jeuno and the gear that is in, is usually over priced due to low quantities and a greedy player base (but that's just life).
Again...it's not a greedy player base as much as the cost of the raw materials. Stuff used to sell lower because the raw materials were more readily available. Case in point: Meat Mithkabobs. People used to regularly farm the mats to make them and sell them on the AH for quick gil. Prices were kept low to keep them selling faster, thus making more money. Kabobs were cooked and sold for a profit to offset the expense. Now, those mats are farmed/sold less often and the price has gone up. It is easier to just pawn the cockatrice meat at times because the AH is just too full and the price drops. But...the cost of wild onions has doubled because of the high demand and low supply. If more people were farming gobs and listing them--onions would drop from 20k a stack back to 10/11k again, and the price of kabobs would drop accordingly. And guess where the most popular mobs for onions are? Close to the starter cities, where most of these crafters are not hanging out. Hmmm.... wonder if the lower level players might benefit from farming onions and selling them....just a thought.

The problem isn't so much with laziness with the veterans, as laziness with the starters. This game is not designed to be a walk in the park for someone to solo their way through it. It is SUPPOSED to present some sort of challenge that encourages people to work together to progress. If they are having trouble getting stuff done, perhaps they need to ask around. If they don't get help from one group, then they need to seek out another group.

Take some initiative and stop expecting the developers to do all the work for you...

[Fiarlia]

GENNADI!!!! nice to see you.... I understand what you mean. Its tough though. There are too few players like you and i left i guess.

This post wasnt a help post but a try to get SE to see what is happening to new players. It was also to reach out for ideas on how to make it better for them also. It seems it turned to "How i make money" and you suck if you cant do it crap.. Well if it gets to one person SE side and they see it, maybe it can make a difference.

I just wish there could be open thought on fixing something, not bashing. Ive only seen what 3 real ideas on how we can improve it....

I don't think anyone is bashing, and I don't think anyone is saying that making it easier would be bad.

Just that it's... not necessary, since it's not. There's a ridiculous amount of ways to make gil, and many ways to learn about it, even without having to look a a single website.

It'd be nice, sure, but in no way is it as big a deal as it's being made out to be.

[chubrocka]

I don't think anyone is bashing, and I don't think anyone is saying that making it easier would be bad.

Just that it's... not necessary, since it's not. There's a ridiculous amount of ways to make gil, and many ways to learn about it, even without having to look a a single website.

It'd be nice, sure, but in no way is it as big a deal as it's being made out to be.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT MAKING MONEY in anyway shape or form.... please people READ the post. Not the OFF TOPIC subs people seem to be adding or making.

Sorry Fiarlia, this wasnt meant to you personally. It is said in general

[Ayasha]

Jesus christ. What is wrong with you people.. This isnt a bash on anything thread, its not even a CRAFTING thread, its an idea thread to help solve the issue for new players who dont have the same beginnings players have had for years. Get off the crap and come up with IDEAS on how to make it better. No BS of lazy or effort or anything like that. 5 years ago AH was FULL. AH is a ghost town now. I want to play this game for many more years and if we dont find ways to solve things then we will lose the new blood and all of players who have been around since the beginning will have to find another game to play.

I understand your plight, however if you would use your critical thinking skills, and put down your "DON'T FLAME ME ELL OH ELL!!!!111one" shield, you would have understood the point I was trying to make.

Since this is a public forum, and also my right to disagree with you, I'll write it point blank. Nothing needs to be fixed. Gear is incredibly easy to get if people would (and this might shock you here, but hey! It's an IDEA!) STOP RELYING ON SQUARE-ENIX TO FIX THINGS THAT AREN'T BROKEN, AND DO A LITTLE WORK FOR THEMSELVES. You have all the tools available to excel at this game available to you. You just need to earn it.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day... Teach a man to fish and... you know the rest.

Edited because I suck at the internet.

[Fiarlia]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT MAKING MONEY in anyway shape or form.... please people READ the post. Not the OFF TOPIC subs people seem to be adding or making.

Sorry Fiarlia, this wasnt meant to you personally. It is said in general

Read what we're writing. You can currently acquire gear with gil, be it on the AH if it's up, from an NPC if it's not, or farm/buy the materials and find a crafter. Or one of the various (and I mean lots by that) other methods mentioned.

Nothing at all is broken. Nothing. This is not a flame, because I certainly wouldn't be opposed to making it easier for lower leveled players to gear themselves. The point is that this is not really necessary because it's already pretty easy, as evidenced by countless posts and people in this very thread.

Nice? Yes.
Necessary? No.
As big a deal as you're making it out to be? Absolutely not.
Ways to get gear already implemented? Many.
Have examples been given? Yes.
Do ways exist for you/returning players/new players to find this information? Absolutely.
Do these ways to learn how exist in game and out? Yep.

Seriously, chill out, and instead of continuing to argue about whether it's hard or not and screaming that people aren't reading your original post try following some of the advice listed (generally involves making money, hence the number of posts directed at the subject).

[chubrocka]

Read what we're writing. You can currently acquire gear with gil, be it on the AH if it's up, from an NPC if it's not, or farm/buy the materials and find a crafter. Or one of the various (and I mean lots by that) other methods mentioned.

Nothing at all is broken. Nothing. This is not a flame, because I certainly wouldn't be opposed to making it easier for lower leveled players to gear themselves. The point is that this is not really necessary because it's already pretty easy, as evidenced by countless posts and people in this very thread.

Nice? Yes.
Necessary? No.
As big a deal as you're making it out to be? Absolutely not.
Ways to get gear already implemented? Many.
Have examples been given? Yes.
Do ways exist for you/returning players/new players to find this information? Absolutely.
Do these ways to learn how exist in game and out? Yep.

Seriously, chill out, and instead of continuing to argue about whether it's hard or not and screaming that people aren't reading your original post try following some of the advice listed (generally involves making money, hence the number of posts directed at the subject).

WoW.. maybe this will help you understand. Ive been playing this game for 7 years. I dont need anything. Im not trying to get anything. What you and others are not understanding/seeing/reading is that we need to do something for NEWER players to be able to have the same or close to in usage of an AH. This has Nothing to do with ME or my play style.

[Fiarlia]

I missed one tiny point that you were talking about others and not yourself and you completely ignored the rest of my entire post, which itself is still completely valid when applied to new players.

Here, then, I'll repost it and not direct it at you as a person, but rather to new players, try rereading it again and see if you can get the point.


Read what we're writing. New players can currently acquire gear with gil, be it on the AH if it's up, from an NPC if it's not, or farm/buy the materials and find a crafter. Or one of the various (and I mean lots by that) other methods mentioned.

Nothing at all is broken. Nothing. This is not a flame, because I certainly wouldn't be opposed to making it easier for lower leveled new players to gear themselves. The point is that this is not really necessary because it's already pretty easy, as evidenced by countless posts and people in this very thread.

Nice? Yes.
Necessary? No.
As big a deal as you're making it out to be? Absolutely not.
Ways to get gear already implemented? Many.
Have examples been given? Yes.
Do ways exist for new players to find this information? Absolutely.
Do these ways to learn how exist in game and out? Yep.

Seriously, chill out, and instead of continuing to argue about whether it's hard or not and screaming that people aren't reading your original post try understanding that new players can follow some of the advice listed (generally involves making money, hence the number of posts directed at the subject).

[Ayasha]

To Chubrocka

Then please explain why you're getting so offensive? No one is berating you. No one is calling your ideas absurd or ridiculous. You posted a VALID argument for your original post, however that's all it is... an Argument. In such, people will argue with you. We have the right to disagree with you as much as your right to be offended by everything we say. Given that you've played for 7 years (I'm right there with you) then you know how things were. Camping AIR ELEMENTAL spawn points just to make a few gil to buy a spell or two from a vendor. Farming ridiculous amounts of silk threads, wild onions, and beehive chips to make ends meet. Camping Valkurm Emperor, Leaping Lizzy, Hoo Mjuu the Torrent, and Mee Deggi for days upon weeks on end just for a CHANCE at getting a drop for gear. Did you quit playing because it was trying?

Bottom line up front, no. You didn't. And neither did I. This game isn't hard, and there's nothing that needs to be fixed for new players. I'll play the devil's advocate here and agree with you that crafting is a thing of the past. However, there are still crafters out there that will make whatever you want if you can provide the materials to do so. Changing the way low-mid level gear is obtained will entirely negate all the hard work crafters have put in to their field to make the items that no one wants anyways.

This game is all about incentives. If you GIVE things to people, or make things stupid easy to get, you'll just get a huge flux of perma-noobs with lack-luster skill, and the Veruka Salt mentality. (I'm talking to YOU Abyssea). My point is that I'd like to see things revert back to their roots.

You get out what you put in.

P.S.

"WoW"? Typo, or Subtle analogy?

[Fiarlia]

"WoW"? Typo, or Subtle analogy?

Freudian Slip? >___________>

[Kanjitai]

I hope that SE takes notice that a lot of people would like gear to be made available from the NPCs. Other MMOs do this. I know 11 isn't WoW, Aion, Rift but SE took a look at other MMOs when making 14. I'm sure one person must have said: maybe we should put something like this in 11.

[Greatguardian]

Gear is already available from NPCs. They are just at prices made in such a way that they would not interfere with crafters who would be unable to sell their wares at all the NPCs sold it cheaply. This is why the NPCs are priced in such a way, and it is still valid today.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Maybe they could add more choices to conquest armor...

but I don't think the low level armor is horribly broken...

If you want a piece of armor and its not on the AH.. find a crafter or lvl up a craft ;o

[viion]

Gear is already available from NPCs. They are just at prices made in such a way that they would not interfere with crafters who would be unable to sell their wares at all the NPCs sold it cheaply. This is why the NPCs are priced in such a way, and it is still valid today.

Its not valid when no one makes the armour, so the "crafting" side is cancelled out but the price continues to be high.

People in this thread are still unaware of how difficult things are for new players, what you're all forgetting is you start with NOTHING, how you supposed to do successful farming on mobs or get anywhere if you're naked with a level 1 weapon and have no skillups so you cant hit anything, this is the issue which drives the difficulty up.

[Gunit]

Make it profitable for crafters to craft.

If you don't want to pay more money than what is obviously not attracting sales on AH, don't complain!

This or Craft your self, Or leech to 90.

[katz]

The problem I see for low level gear is anything below 30 is makeable and will probably be made. But once people hit level 30 they just go stand in abyssea so why should anyone put anything on the ah if people are just going to waste your time and not buy it because you dont need gear to stand in abyssea. This makes it very hard for new players to get any gear from 30. Raise the cap for abyssea. Make it profitable and worth while for people to put the stuff back on the ah. Its the only way you will get new stuff appearing.

[katz]

Its not valid when no one makes the armour, so the "crafting" side is cancelled out but the price continues to be high.

People in this thread are still unaware of how difficult things are for new players, what you're all forgetting is you start with NOTHING, how you supposed to do successful farming on mobs or get anywhere if you're naked with a level 1 weapon and have no skillups so you cant hit anything, this is the issue which drives the difficulty up.

Most armor is bought from the shops around below level 30. I agree unless new players know someone in the game or find someone in the game who can sponsor their first few levels its going to be hard but no harder than when we all first started. FOV gil helps the new players more than we ever had. There are lots of beginner quests that can make them gil. All you can ask is the long time serving memeber who finds a new player be a gracious host and give them some gil to help them along and ideas for them to get their own. I cant tell you how many new players Ive given 10k to get them going. They dont need much.

[Flunklesnarkin]

It's really not that hard to find a crafter....

and its incredibly cheap to level up crafts to where you can make midlevel gear... AH is in the dumps atm so materials are cheap.

[Kanjitai]

I've said this before and I'll say it again I won't level a craft to make one piece of gear. There are plenty of crafters that have leveled crafts up already that can supply the low levels of a server.

[RAIST]

Its not valid when no one makes the armour, so the "crafting" side is cancelled out but the price continues to be high.

People in this thread are still unaware of how difficult things are for new players, what you're all forgetting is you start with NOTHING, how you supposed to do successful farming on mobs or get anywhere if you're naked with a level 1 weapon and have no skillups so you cant hit anything, this is the issue which drives the difficulty up.


Most armor is bought from the shops around below level 30. I agree unless new players know someone in the game or find someone in the game who can sponsor their first few levels its going to be hard but no harder than when we all first started. FOV gil helps the new players more than we ever had. There are lots of beginner quests that can make them gil. All you can ask is the long time serving memeber who finds a new player be a gracious host and give them some gil to help them along and ideas for them to get their own. I cant tell you how many new players Ive given 10k to get them going. They dont need much.

FYI... the first mobs you FOV on (page1) outside a starter city are level 1 mobs. You can fight those until you hit level 6 or 7. You will have earned enough gil from the FOV pages and selling the drops to purchase new gears and guess what... go back to FOV again. Page 2 is... level 3-6 mobs--which you can take to level 12 or 13. Again, you can earn enough gils, possibly even CP to get upgraded gears again and.....go back to FOV. The remaining pages just outside the starter city have mobs that you can xp on until you hit 15-17.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Field_Manual

Some of the mobs will actually drop GIL when you kill them. Some drop items you can use to craft stuff at level 0 craft and sell for a decent profit. Some drops will sell for up to 5k a stack in the AH, or NPC for 100+ gil, or are used in quests for either gil or...guess what GEAR (Outside Bastok, you can get a Shell Shield to drop that can be used at level 7, turned in for Welcome to Bastok and gives you a level 9 sword that you can use and later upgrade to a Bee Spatha, or just sell it for 350+ gil, or ifyou happen to be leveling bonecraft you may be able to desynth the shield for a Giant Femur that can be used to craft something else or AH for 1k gil or NPC for 200--if you use the shield for the quest it opens another fetch quest you can do later to get a level 31 shield).

All this can happen right outside your starting nation, and you earn a decent spot of gil off them. You haven't had to travel anywhere, and you are able to solo all the way to level 12-15, earn gil to cover the cost of upgrading gear AS NEEDED TO HANDLE THE MOBS YOU ARE FIGHTING (don't need level 10 gear for a level 6 mob) and are at a decent level to team up and kill stuff in Dunes now if you like. If not, you can work your way to one or two zones away from your starter nation and rinse/repeat with that FOV book and get to 20 plus solo if you want, or if you've made some friends you can team up and explore and fight tougher targets mixing in FOV for higher xp/gil gains and get all the way to Jueno to get your chocobo and such and start making even more gil/xp per hour. It all flows very nicely.

As stated before--adjustments simply are NOT needed. It is all there. It has ALWAYS been there (at least since I started ages ago). Oh, and btw...I started long before FOV was available. I started as a MNK, ddin't have a linkshell until after I had leveled MNK, WAR, WHM, and RDM to around level 12 and headed to Dunes for my first party. That is when I got my FIRST linkshell. I never had any trouble with gil back then, and I wasn't crafting or gardening. I didn't start any of that until I started BLM, which wasn't until AFTER I unlocked subjobs and made my way to Jueno. When I started BLM, I started cooking craft to make my own juices as I leveled BLM. My first big AH purchase was SEER'S for my BLM, all +1 except for the body.

So yes, I DO know how hard it is for someone to start out. I DID it under MUCH harsher conditions.

[chubrocka]

Well thank you to the very few who tried to help come up with solid ideas for making an adjustment to the way the game has progressed. Its just too bad that most have to turn it into my way your way crap.

[Eeek]

I've said this before and I'll say it again I won't level a craft to make one piece of gear. There are plenty of crafters that have leveled crafts up already that can supply the low levels of a server.

The crafters would certainly make low-level gear if there was a market for it. But there's not. Why make products that are in such low demand?

[katz]

I guess people are complaining about lack of gil because they level up so much faster these days. When I started you had to earn the gil to level up. Now its too easy to level, the need for gil is that much faster and because they havent had to earn gil before leveling they are finding they are short. The game now seems geared towards how fast can I get to 90 instead of how can I get to be a good quality player.

[chubrocka]

I guess people are complaining about lack of gil because they level up so much faster these days. When I started you had to earn the gil to level up. Now its too easy to level, the need for gil is that much faster and because they havent had to earn gil before leveling they are finding they are short. The game now seems geared towards how fast can I get to 90 instead of how can I get to be a good quality player.



Ya to bad the thread was about how to help fill the AH for new players at low levels (gear and so on), or come up with a idea on how to make things of that nature more available. The "how fast i can level" I couldnt agree with you more. I think the reason we die hards played this game and boycott WoW is because we cherrished the long hours and years of team work and companionship created. FFXI was never geared to be a solo game, well not untill ABBY came out anyways...

I know all of you who have played this game many years can remember a BUSTING at the seems AH. Where you could buy gear recycled off by players who sold it there because its how it was done. Youd check your deliv box all the time to see if your items sold so you could purchase better equip to go along with the items you quested for. That is no longer a part of the game, and its what the newer players will never see unless we/SE do something to help it. (look more server merges, lack of newer players, we will lose our passion here if we dont do something)So again to all of you who want to steer off topic... try to be a solution not a problem.

[Olor]

Gardening..

Can't garden for 3 months after starting a new character.

[Olor]

Read what we're writing. You can currently acquire gear with gil, be it on the AH if it's up, from an NPC if it's not, or farm/buy the materials and find a crafter. Or one of the various (and I mean lots by that) other methods mentioned.

Nothing at all is broken. Nothing.

Actually the fact that there is very little gear between 1-50 on the AH at any time IS broken. It isn't even about gil - it is about the fact that you simply can't buy it if it isn't there... and if you truly think paying an npc X3 what a crappy piece of gear is worth is the solution for a newb - you're outta your mind.

If crafters don't think making gear is worth their time - then something is broken - either SE needs to make crafting skill ups come faster (thus encouraging new players to give it a try) - or they need to stock npcs with more gear that costs less.

The game economy was originally made with a playerbase that was -mostly- low level with some high levels in mind. Now that the game is so top heavy, things need to be adjusted. As for people saying stacks of onions sell for so much yadda ya - last time I sold them I got like 8K and that was pretty much the price they were when I sold them 2 years ago on my old char on a different server.

I've also tried farming onions on a lvl 7 or 8 job only to have a level 90 thf come and sweep the area clean of mobs. Great. Now I get no money, and no experience points. That was fun! I guess I can sit down and wait for respawn now. Sure is fun playing this game!

If you want the game to wither away before it's time you will continue to accuse new players of being lazy. If you were smart, however, you would realize new players will extend the life of this game - and support measures which don't hurt you, but help new players.

Seriously- if you don't want to make newbie armor - why would you be against measures to help new players get some?

[Fiarlia]

Actually the fact that there is very little gear between 1-50 on the AH at any time IS broken. It isn't even about gil - it is about the fact that you simply can't buy it if it isn't there... and if you truly think paying an npc X3 what a crappy piece of gear is worth is the solution for a newb - you're outta your mind.

If crafters don't think making gear is worth their time - then something is broken - either SE needs to make crafting skill ups come faster (thus encouraging new players to give it a try) - or they need to stock npcs with more gear that costs less.

The game economy was originally made with a playerbase that was -mostly- low level with some high levels in mind. Now that the game is so top heavy, things need to be adjusted. As for people saying stacks of onions sell for so much yadda ya - last time I sold them I got like 8K and that was pretty much the price they were when I sold them 2 years ago on my old char on a different server.

I've also tried farming onions on a lvl 7 or 8 job only to have a level 90 thf come and sweep the area clean of mobs. Great. Now I get no money, and no experience points. That was fun! I guess I can sit down and wait for respawn now. Sure is fun playing this game!

If you want the game to wither away before it's time you will continue to accuse new players of being lazy. If you were smart, however, you would realize new players will extend the life of this game - and support measures which don't hurt you, but help new players.

Seriously- if you don't want to make newbie armor - why would you be against measures to help new players get some?

Try reading through the actual topic, every single point you made has already been addressed, and I've said multiple times I'm not against helping, it's just not necessary.

Geez, people seriously need to go level and cap their reading comprehension skills.

[Eeek]

Actually the fact that there is very little gear between 1-50 on the AH at any time IS broken.

Not really. It's a sign that there's a negligible demand for these items.

There's absolutely no incentive for crafters to enter the low-level gear market since there is no real market for low-level gear. There's already enough low-level gear floating about the playerbase, bought and sold as people start and finish subjobs, that there's no real incentive for crafters to involve themselves. There's no gil to be made there. If, as you claim, there are tons of new players running about, then crafters would already be there accommodating the demand for gear.

This MMO is over eight years old. FFXI will never again see a large influx of new players. Returning players? Yes. But not entirely new players.

[viion]

You stop getting gil on FOV after 5, so a level 1 can only make 1350, 1/10th required to buy any gear lol.

[Eeek]

You stop getting gil on FOV after 5, so a level 1 can only make 1350, 1/10th required to buy any gear lol.

Players can receive FoV's gil and tabs reward only once per game day even though it's possible to do several FoV regimes per game day.

[Olor]

Try reading through the actual topic, every single point you made has already been addressed, and I've said multiple times I'm not against helping, it's just not necessary.

Geez, people seriously need to go level and cap their reading comprehension skills.


I read the entire thread, thanks. But I guess stooping to personal insults levels up your reading comprehension skills, amirite?

[Bubeeky]

I don't understand why the new players are having such an issue making money....back years ago, when people like myself started playing, things weren't any easier to figure out...actually it was hard as hell, because wiki wasn't as advanced as it is now, and knowledge about gil making endeavors was a closely guarded secret, yet many of us still managed to figure out how not only to make that gil, but to prosper too.

I'm with all the other crafters on this thread....give us a reason/incentive to make things and we'll do it. I'm always happy to cook up anything that ppl want me to in game, for no charge as long as the person brings me the mats, but I'm not going to waste my time to make maybe 5k with a good bit of effort when there's so many other ways that are more profitable and quicker.

[Kanjitai]

I like to point out that the lack of gear hurts long time players too. I have low level jobs I like to level but can't gear. Also some people think making gil is the issue. it's not it's the lack of gear. you can't buy what's not there.

[Olor]

Wow. The OP has said numerous times that this thread is not about making money it is about the fact that there is very little to buy for lower levels. He is right. When people on the LS are asking if ANYONE has seer gear to sell - and the answer is "no" - so they are just SoL.

Guess what? Seer gear is crafted only. It doesn't matter how much money a person has if no one is selling it. So for crying out loud - stop making this thread about how noobs should just work harder to make money - and talk about the actual issue - or don't bother posting at all.

Numerous times crafters have said it isn't worth their time to make these things because there are not a lot of new players coming in. It is true. There are not a lot of new players coming in. Out of the ones coming in, there will be very few that are going to have enough gil to make higher level players feel like "crafting for low levels is worth their time." Hell, even if every new player was a gil-making machine - it wouldn't matter cause there are not enough of them to keep things moving on the auction house, so likely as not crafters will still feel like it isn't worth their time.

The game is top-heavy. The gear system was designed with a playerbase with more even level spreads in mind. It was designed with the idea that people would be leveling crafts and skilling up by making gear.

So while all of you can say "oh you don't need the gear anyway - level sync in the dunes till you're 30 then leech Abyssea till cap" but that is not an option for new players. And if new players want to make gil they need decent gears so that they won't die while they are trying to do it. Those gears are not available - AT ALL most of the time.

What happens is the lack of gear is contributing to the lack of new players because - honest to god, there are people who quit over the fact they can't find any equipment.

[cidbahamut]

Wow. The OP has said numerous times that this thread is not about making money it is about the fact that there is very little to buy for lower levels.

This thread is entirely about making gil. Crafter's don't make gil on low level crafted items, therefore crafters don't craft low level items.

It really is that straight forward.

[Olor]

This thread is entirely about making gil. Crafter's don't make gil on low level crafted items, therefore crafters don't craft low level items.


Yes and no. No, it is not about noobs making money like so many people are trying to make it about, because as I said above, even if all noobs were gil making machines (which is unfair to expect them to be, because they are NOOBS) - there are not enough of them for crafters to bother with.

Yes, it is about the fact that crafters can't be arsed to make something for a small profit that takes a long time to sell because there are few noobs and fewer with much gil to their names - and no, I don't blame them for that.

So, what this thread is actually about is ideas about how SE can fix the problem (and yes there is a problem) - which is that atm a lot of gear just isn't being made, and won't be made because there is not enough new players to create the kind of demand/profit that will motivate the current crafters we have.

My suggestions are:

either
-offering some of the crafted only gear on npcs at affordable rates OR
-increasing the skill up rate on crafting so that more people give leveling it a chance/it is more affordable for new players to level it

Other suggestions would be awesome.

[Greatguardian]

This thread was turned into "How can noobs make money" barely a page or two in after the solution to all of this was presented multiple times.

If materials are made readily available, and patrons are actually willing to pay for a crafter's time, low level gear will become a viable market. If materials remain almost impossible to find (or simply at inflated prices), and final products remain a complete profit loss to even put up on the AH, no crafter in the world would waste their time making low level gear.

That's all there is to it. It has nothing to do with leveling or Abyssea and everything to do with people being unwilling to supply crafters or pay for their skills. Without the massive RMT influx of basic materials, the responsibility to maintain a steady influx of Mining/Harvesting/Logging goods is back on low level players.

Players are extremely spoiled. They don't understand that the reason a lot of things were so cheap back in the day was solely because of the RMT influence (they caused the supply of many items to soar). Not only do they want a large stock of armor available on the AH, but they also want it cheap. Really cheap. Cheaper than the base materials. Whenever crafters try fixing prices to break even, it becomes "Greedy crafters are trying to rip me off. I can't make any gil. I can't afford to pay them. I don't want to work for this armor. I just want them to give it to me because they're rich and I'm not. Not everyone knows what ffxiah is. It's not fair to expect new players to be able to get any gil. Why can't the armor be cheaper?"

This is all it comes down to. As myself and others have already said a few times in this thread; make it worth our time to craft low level armor and we'll do it. We aren't going to go eat massive losses and hunt for basic materials all day just to please some people that complain about spending 5k-10k gil.

[cidbahamut]

There's very little incentive to craft gear at any level these days.

[Bubeeky]

Players are extremely spoiled. They don't understand that the reason a lot of things were so cheap back in the day was solely because of the RMT influence (they caused the supply of many items to soar). Not only do they want a large stock of armor available on the AH, but they also want it cheap. Really cheap. Cheaper than the base materials. Whenever crafters try fixing prices to break even, it becomes "Greedy crafters are trying to rip me off. I can't make any gil. I can't afford to pay them. I don't want to work for this armor. I just want them to give it to me because they're rich and I'm not. Not everyone knows what ffxiah is. It's not fair to expect new players to be able to get any gil. Why can't the armor be cheaper?"

So true...in my experience, crafting doesn't give a huge profit till the end, but ppl complain about the massive prices, not realizing the price that the crafter had to pay to make the item.

[Wenceslao]

some mobs who drops pieces of armor should be droping it more often so ppls have a better change to obtaining it, and thus using it or selling it at AH, items that are used to synth should be easier to get (like an example a wamoura thread), as sometimes the items are hard to get and thus ignored by crafters, whats teh point on doing something that is to much a trouble and won't give me a profit, if these items have an easier way to get, more armors, weapons, furnishings, etc, should be able to be crafted and thus put on AH, there are other items players are looking after (like ancient currency) that could be sellable and thus starting to full Ah, idk, this is my idea, personally i like clothcrafting no matter its useless now, n if i could get some materials easier, i could craft more and more clothes and sell 'em at the AH i think many crafters or regular players stops using AH because there is no point on buying a weak armor i won't be using much time because of abyssea, sadly this is hurting new players, as they don't have the biggest armor/wps of the game, or at least the ones used in mostly pt situations (like AF before abyss armor, or empyrean sets)....

[Fiarlia]

I read the entire thread, thanks. But I guess stooping to personal insults levels up your reading comprehension skills, amirite?

Not sure where I insulted anyone, just said that people either aren't reading everything, or comprehending everything, or both. Though if you did read the entire thread, where on earth did you get the idea I was against it? I'm serious, point out where I've said they shouldn't do something. The "worst" I did was state that it wasn't necessary, and then explained why, even stating that it'd be nice if they did anyway in some of the same posts.

And gear not being on the AH is not a legitimate reason as to why players can't get gear. There are many ways to go about getting gear, including with gil (see what I did there? made gil relevant to the discussion because pretending it's not is ludicrous). Buy or farm the mats and find a crafter. Most all crafters would be willing to take a minute or so of their time and craft something that the materials are provided for. Many of them would also likely do it without an extra fee. Thinking about alternative options and following through must apparently be an incredibly hard thing to do for new players, given the amount of people arguing that it's impossible to get gear.

[chubrocka]

Wow. The OP has said numerous times that this thread is not about making money it is about the fact that there is very little to buy for lower levels. He is right. When people on the LS are asking if ANYONE has seer gear to sell - and the answer is "no" - so they are just SoL.

Guess what? Seer gear is crafted only. It doesn't matter how much money a person has if no one is selling it. So for crying out loud - stop making this thread about how noobs should just work harder to make money - and talk about the actual issue - or don't bother posting at all.

Numerous times crafters have said it isn't worth their time to make these things because there are not a lot of new players coming in. It is true. There are not a lot of new players coming in. Out of the ones coming in, there will be very few that are going to have enough gil to make higher level players feel like "crafting for low levels is worth their time." Hell, even if every new player was a gil-making machine - it wouldn't matter cause there are not enough of them to keep things moving on the auction house, so likely as not crafters will still feel like it isn't worth their time.

The game is top-heavy. The gear system was designed with a playerbase with more even level spreads in mind. It was designed with the idea that people would be leveling crafts and skilling up by making gear.

So while all of you can say "oh you don't need the gear anyway - level sync in the dunes till you're 30 then leech Abyssea till cap" but that is not an option for new players. And if new players want to make gil they need decent gears so that they won't die while they are trying to do it. Those gears are not available - AT ALL most of the time.

What happens is the lack of gear is contributing to the lack of new players because - honest to god, there are people who quit over the fact they can't find any equipment.


Thank you Olor. Im glad there are atleast a few who get it.

[Flunklesnarkin]

OP is flipping out about crafting lulz

The problem is entirely about crafting... either find a crafter or level up a craft skill...

although finding a crafter is really easy these days....

[chubrocka]

I give up... It is a shame that we cant try to solve something with "SE" without having children play there games. Good luck players. When the game is gone, thank yourselves and remember those elders you didnt listen too...

[Olor]

I just don't understand why people who don't want to help the problem (by crafting and creating supply) don't support the idea of fixing the problem through game design (making crafting more accessible to new players/adding items to npcs)

[Olor]

Also - I like how people are acting like it is oh-so-easy to find a crafter who will take the time to make things for you...

[Fiarlia]

Seriously?

Apparently new people being able to find a crafter is super hard too, despite having more tools than years ago.

Seems like nobody arguing for the helping of new players has any confidence in them whatsoever. =/

[cidbahamut]

Also - I like how people are acting like it is oh-so-easy to find a crafter who will take the time to make things for you...

Gather materials.
Shout in any city.
Get gear.

Alternative: Find a good linkshell.

[Flunklesnarkin]

you can also search for crafters by server on ffxiah...

just point in click to w/e parameters you want.. ie. lvl 100 bonecraft / bismarck server and click.. you get all the results.. a lot of people use that website.

[Greatguardian]

If someone walks up to me with materials and is actually polite and willing to accept a "No" if I'm busy, I generally wouldn't mind crafting something for them.

The issue is people tend to feel a strong sense of entitlement around crafters. It's plenty easy to find one if you're polite, non-intrusive, take no for an answer when it's given, and you actually thank/tip the crafter afterwards for their time. Crafters aren't obligated to do anything for anyone. More often than not, even if someone is polite in requesting the use of a craft, they get really annoying and self-righteous if the crafter they ask turns them down. "Why can't you just take 5 minutes to do it?" "Pleeeeeeeeaaaase?" "You're such a jackass for not helping me."

It's simply a matter of people asking other people for a favor. You have to show them respect if you want any in turn. If I'm busy and turn down a request to make something, and the person is actually not a total twat about it (This has happened maybe once in my entire playtime =/), I'll contact them when I'm no longer busy and see if they still need anything. On the other hand, when people go twat-mode, I'll just proceed to ignore them in the future.

Proper etiquette regarding tips and thank yous is still important as well. Crafters put a lot of time and gil into their trade. Many people confuse the fact that most crafters don't specifically charge when you bring your own materials with not having to give them any gil. Sure, I won't force you to pay me to craft this for you, but it's common courtesy to tip those who are doing you a service. It is the playerbase's utter lack of etiquette in this area that has also discouraged the crafting base, and has forced many crafters to require a tip-like surcharge for their work in order to get anyone to tip them. This is especially true when someone brings in a large quantity of materials, taking a decent amount of time to make. The crafter is giving up their free time for the patron's benefit, it's only polite to remain considerate of that fact.

That said, I think the OP is being dense. Yes, the original point of the thread was to discuss measures to increase the armor supply that circumvent crafting. However, the Devs have always tried to be very careful when dealing with crafters and player-supplied goods. That's the entire point behind a player-driven economy. We may not be addressing your proposed solution, but we are directly addressing the cause. If there is a lack of armor on the AH, it is because the consumer is not willing to give the product a viable market. Make the market viable, then people will be willing to work in it.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Well its common sense too... don't harass somebody while they are fighting a NM or w/e..

if they are doing a boring ass magian trial.. or standing around town though.. they might be more receptive.

[Fiarlia]

Also don't get pissed if they don't answer immediately, could be afk.

[Olor]

you can also search for crafters by server on ffxiah...

just point in click to w/e parameters you want.. ie. lvl 100 bonecraft / bismarck server and click.. you get all the results.. a lot of people use that website.

Oh, see I didn't know this... and I do use xiah and wiki a lot. Thanks for the info. That said - do people really expect new players to know where to look for all of this stuff? I mean seriously?

[RAIST]

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps a lot of the lower to mid level gears were also plentiful because people were leveling their crafts. 7+ years into the game, those players have leveled their crafts and the only incentive to make the lower level gears and sell it is if it can be done for a profit. If the mats aren't readily available and the resulting item can't be turned in a reasonable time frame for a reasonable profit--there is no incentive to make it.

There is a simple solution that has already been mentioned here--take advantage of the tools already present to combat the issue. Gather the mats your self and either ask your ls/friends or /shout for crafting assistance, or--heaven forbid--take some initiative and take up crafting like all those other people did years ago.

The responsibility to resolve your issue lies not with the developers--it lies with the player. The tools and opportunities exist to support yourself just fine. The way you guys with the complaints are talking, this game would have never gotten off the ground in the first place. You do realize that the PLAYERS THEMSELVES had to figure ALL this crap out through their OWN research and experimentation. Stop expecting everyone else to bear the burden of making the game easy for you and take some initiative. That's how it was in the beginning, that is how it shall be for days to come.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I don't expect new players to know where to look... but if they aren't complete douches.. usually people will tell them what community sites are out there.

[Olor]

That said, I think the OP is being dense. Yes, the original point of the thread was to discuss measures to increase the armor supply that circumvent crafting. However, the Devs have always tried to be very careful when dealing with crafters and player-supplied goods. That's the entire point behind a player-driven economy. We may not be addressing your proposed solution, but we are directly addressing the cause. If there is a lack of armor on the AH, it is because the consumer is not willing to give the product a viable market. Make the market viable, then people will be willing to work in it.


I do think that people are confusing "doesn't want to pay" with "not enough low-level players to support crafting low level items."

That's the issue here. There is no way to tell if newbies are willing to pay or not because the armor isn't on the AH. Again, my LS mate, I am pretty sure would have been overjoyed to pay any reasonable price for seer gear - but there was none up for Auction.

When a crafter puts something up for auction and gets sent back maybe they interpret that as "no one wants to pay X price" when the real answer is "no one wanted that piece of gear for the last three days."

[Unctgtg]

Don't know what you guys are talking about making it profitable for crafters, I am making a killing off lower level equipment esp, the 12-30 gear.

[RAIST]

I just don't understand why people who don't want to help the problem (by crafting and creating supply) don't support the idea of fixing the problem through game design (making crafting more accessible to new players/adding items to npcs)

Um.. crafting is available at level 1, and mats are available from local vendors or from monsters/quests and the AH's. There is a system to send money and items to players in other areas that you also can access at level 1. If you are in Sandoria, you can buy mats and send items and gil to a crafter in another city to buy the remaining items. They crafti tnad voila--they send the item back to you.

You also don't really need much of anything but the gear you are given when you start to get your first 6 or 7 levels, as detailed in a previous post. Technically, you could solo all the way to level 15-17 without ever upgrading your gear at all if you wanted too. By that time, you have accumulated a moderate amount of gil and CP and are able to purchase some decent gear and start forming parties, get social with players, join an LS, and find crafters and such to help you out.

If a player never wants to get off their duff and just do it and instead expect someone else to do all the work for them....that's another problem, and more and more it sounds like what you guys want. You don't want to explore and socialize so you can ask people for assistance, and you don't want to take it upon yourself to make/farm your own stuff. So, the only option is for you to deal with vendor bought gear, which may not be as good as the crafted gear and may cost more (belive me, at one time this was not always the case--leather gears were simply bought and sould for a double markup in the AH's, and people BOUGHT it!!). Well, time to get up and do something about it yourself--stop crying foul because it's not being done for you.

[Olor]

Don't know what you guys are talking about making it profitable for crafters, I am making a killing off lower level equipment esp, the 12-30 gear.

Yeah, when people are willing to pay 20K+ for straight conquest gear I call bull-shiz on people that say there is no profit in crafting items which are better than conquest gear, or serve jobs not well served by the conquest gear. The truth is, it is easier to make profit selling Abyssea drops than crafting low level gear - which is why my favoured suggestion is to make it easier/cheaper to level crafting.

That will help new players be more self-sufficient, while also helping them supply their fellow adventurers who may not have as much time to craft. (Believe it or not, there are a lot of players that just want to adventure and kill stuff - rather than spending hours running all over vanadiel with no chocobo/teleports/fast travel options to get overpriced items from npc shops to craft with)

[Krystal]

I have numerous high level crafts on various chars, I haven't been near a craft synth since a while after the introduction of Abyssea.

Gil isn't anywhere near as needed as it was, so you don't have dedicated crafters crafting to make money. I haven't spent any money on anything at all except shihei for 6-7 months...aside from a handful of NPC bought scrolls (abyssea chest drops sold to npc more than covered these).

Crafting is dead, currently there is very little point to craft or raise one, many basic armor synths were cheap and stocked well on the AH cause they were skillups synths. Taking a craft up now is stupid since aside from the reasons already mentioned, HQ gear is useless and even one of the old reasons people crafted (making signed +1 armor for themselves) is now pointless cause everything you can synth is crap compared to Aby drops.

So many people leech in Abyssea now where you need no gear that demand is way down anyway.

All these things together means they need to make a new sub category on the AH for NPC sold armors, they aren't screwing the crafters cause nobody makes them or cares anymore. If they destroy the need for gil, allow very popular leeching and kill crafting they need to fix it so players can actually get gear from the NPCs and for the prices to not be stupid high.

Good lord above...if THIS is not enough proof that abyssea is killing the game...idk what the heck else to say....-_-;

[katz]

Ive been thinking about this problem. Maybe its time for the AHs all to be one. If the town Ah are no longer being fed gear and low level gear is becoming more rare, maybe its time to merge them all into one. A bit like the way the chocobo racing all converge into one area. After all RL is moving ah to telephone and internet bidding and not just local site bidding. Come on SE help us do this. Put all the gear from the towns onto the Jeuno auction and link them back to the town ah so people can check where ever they are. A bit like Whitegate links to Jeuno. While you are there increase the number of items to sell to 10.

[RAIST]

Ive been thinking about this problem. Maybe its time for the AHs all to be one. If the town Ah are no longer being fed gear and low level gear is becoming more rare, maybe its time to merge them all into one. A bit like the way the chocobo racing all converge into one area. After all RL is moving ah to telephone and internet bidding and not just local site bidding. Come on SE help us do this. Put all the gear from the towns onto the Jeuno auction and link them back to the town ah so people can check where ever they are. A bit like Whitegate links to Jeuno. While you are there increase the number of items to sell to 10.

They already announced this was coming. Updates just got pushed back because of the earthquake situation, and the timeline is all monkeyed up right now.

EDIT: link to the announcement on AH merger from 1/20/2011:
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/6139/detail.html

They also stated in a forum post that after the merger is completed and they can guage the impact on the servers they will consider increasing the cap on number of listings. This was reduced ages ago to balance server load. With auctions merged into one system, there may be less demand on resources and could allow for increasing the listing cap.

[katz]

you can also search for crafters by server on ffxiah...

just point in click to w/e parameters you want.. ie. lvl 100 bonecraft / bismarck server and click.. you get all the results.. a lot of people use that website.

Why do people need to go out of FFXI to get the information. SE should have a porter moggle information desk, find me a level x crafter who is on line.

[cidbahamut]

Why do people need to go out of FFXI to get the information. SE should have a porter moggle information desk, find me a level x crafter who is on line.

Because you'd need to refer to information online to be aware of and find the moogle in the first place, so why not take that extra step and stop being a lazy waste of resources?

[Sayelle]

Good lord above...if THIS is not enough proof that abyssea is killing the game...idk what the heck else to say....-_-;

Crafting was pretty much dead long before abyssea came out aside from a few profitable synths and consumables like food and ninja tools anyway. Low level gear hasn't actively been made by the crafting community since probably about 2005. The entire crafting/synergy system needs a drastic overhaul and it has little to do with abyssea.

[HFX7686]

I don't expect new players to know where to look... but if they aren't complete douches.. usually people will tell them what community sites are out there.

I would think that anyone starting to play FF11 these days would simply use Google to find relevant information regarding FF1 that they might need.

Some people in this thread seem to believe that new players have the intelligences of 5 year olds. I'm sure if they wanted to know something they would look it up. Most people have access to the Internet....especially people who are playing an online game.


As for this "problem", I don't think it really exists. It just sounds like someone who went to level some low level job and couldn't find a Spike Necklace on the auction house when they wanted to go level. You don't even need awesome gear when you're low level, a weapon and a few pieces here and there will do until 30-35, then you can get better pieces as you go along.

I don't remember having awesome gear my first job and I'm sure new players don't expect to have awesome gear right away either.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Why do people need to go out of FFXI to get the information. SE should have a porter moggle information desk, find me a level x crafter who is on line.

They don't need too.. but it is an option that a lot of people use to find a crafter..

and I fail to see how telling a noob about community sites is a bad thing..


Could there be some super high speed crafting system.. sure..

other games i've played you could search for crafters like you searched for exp pt's.... ie.. lvl 100 goldsmithing.. looking for work.

something like that would be super awesome.

[blowfin]

I agree with the OP in that low level gear is very hard to find on the Auction House. Its kind of annoying now to go back and level a job from 1-30 and have it not only take ages to find gear, but then have it be outdated so quickly and have to fart around again trying to find half decent gear (i.e. not be naked). You can certainly find bits and peices, but it usually involves going to the Jeuno auction house. CP armor is a good option if you had the foresight to choose the city which suits the job you want to level but for the average player theyre not going to make enough CP for this to be worthwhile straight away. "Go out and craft it yourself" is not really a good solution, most people don't want to be naked for a few days while they skill up a craft and newer players might not have the resources or the desire to level a craft. There should be options for them without HAVING to craft or use CP. At the moment there really isn't many besides level 1 RSE.

Some solutions are these (and yes they do involve crafting and making gil), and I think theyve been mentioned already.
- Reduce the cost of armor from NPC's and/or make a better range of items available in the starter cities from vendors. Despite what people have said armor from NPC's is priced incredibly highly for the current state of the game (i.e. none of those items on the AH).
- Make it viable for people to be selling or crafting (dirty word sorry) lower level armor again
- Link the auction houses! (this is the big one and looks like what we're going to get)

[Alhanelem]

I have to say, Spending about 2/3 of the OP telling people this is not a flame topic and dont go off topic and all that stuff is not going to get people who weren't going to anyway to not post whatever they were going to post. Just post your topic and let the moderators intervene if something ebcomes a problem.

On the topic, I don't really see the issue being raised. As far as I can tell, any current problems with item availability will be solved by the merging of the AHes. It will be much easier to sell gear of varying levels because anyone who needs stuff will be able to access it from anywhere.

"- Link the auction houses!" - Unnecessary to suggest this, they are already doing it.

[blowfin]

"- Link the auction houses!" - Unnecessary to suggest this, they are already doing it.

Yes, this thread is pretty much moot. Problem is already being looked at by the dev team.

[viion]

*yawns* hai guys, whats going on.

[Camate]

The development team is aware of the problems you're all mentioning and are concerned about it as well. While we are planning on merging the Auction Houses in the next version update, we are aware that this won't completely resolve the issue. However, once the merge is completed, we'll closely monitor the situation and see what can be done to further address it.

[Kroma]

I won't lie and say I read all of this thread (I gave up around page four), but I DO remember what it was like to be a new player back in 2003. I was just a FFVII and FFIX fan wanting to know what XI was all about. I started out in Bastok with a Hume Male and died ... a lot. Then I said to myself, "there has to be something I'm missing." So, though it gets a lot of grief, I got the Brady Guide. (Still have it too.) I read through it, learned some stuff and started again from scratch. I moved my character to Sandy and soloed til I was about level 15 or so, basically until soloing wasn't effective. I knew at the time I needed to start partying, but w/o prior experience, I was a bit timid ... oh, and when I did finally get a party, that was when I first found out about signet. ... So I started over yet again. This time when I leveled I made sure I had signet up at all times, and I that's when I started selling crystals for gil. I remember being able to get 10-20k per stack for dark crystals. By the time I was ready to party I had close to half a mil in Gil. It may not be that easy now, but last time i played, about 2 years ago, water crystals were still selling for about 1-2k/stack. That character I took to level 40 or so before I took my first break. I was able to find people to help me with the sub-job quest and unlocking NIN and a few other jobs, I even had a friend donate some gil, just because. By the time I took my first break I had nearly 1.5 mil from selling dark crystals, various materials, and assets combined. (I leveled several jobs from 1-15 just so I could farm dark crystals.)

I had a friend who started with me who played the auction house and preyed on people's laziness. He'd buy a few items from vendors and sell them for a profit on the AH. And that's just two ways two ways new people can turn a profit. That doesn't even include crafting; all you need is crystals and materials. (Yes it is time consuming, but that's how MMOs go.)

I know things have changed over the past 7 years, but from what I can see it's for the better. (My first return to Vana'diel was during the height of the RMT, where my 1.5 mil just barely scathed the surface of what I needed for new gear, food, shehei, etc. (empress hairpin for 1.2+ mil, anyone?)) I don't know if I can speak for anyone else here, but I don't have a lot of sympathy because I had to go through the same thing ... we all did.

This game isn't like WoW where addiction is fed through attaining the next level, or getting the next piece of gear, or in other words "instant gratification." It's about community, working with others to achieve a common goal (I think Garrison and Besieged, and the reoccurring Eggs-travaganza were great examples of this), and building pride in what you've accomplished. Would have been nice for it to have been easier early on? Sure it would have, but I enjoyed figuring things out and became proud of what I had accomplished. That way when I was handed something, by a friend or a stranger, I felt like I had earned it rather than mooching.

This game isn't easy ... it's epic. Final Fantasy in-and-of itself is epic. I for one wouldn't want, or expect, anything less from SE or the FF franchise. (Which is kinda of why I'm on a break from FFXIV. /tear) Anyway, that's my $0.02

[Olor]

The development team is aware of the problems you're all mentioning and are concerned about it as well. While we are planning on merging the Auction Houses in the next version update, we are aware that this won't completely resolve the issue. However, once the merge is completed, we'll closely monitor the situation and see what can be done to further address it.

Thanks so much for the response. I'm glad that the development team recognizes this as a genuine issue.

[Selzak]

So you're asking us to discuss a problem, but at the same time demanding that we don't discuss the essential mechanisms of the subject?

Cool story bro.


You seem full of angst, calm down. If you're going to present something so loudly, make sure it's something that you actually understand a little bit.



The problem isn't with the game's economy as much as it is with the game's direction. The AH is bare because no one is playing the game that the AH was built around. Calling the situation complicated is almost an understatement, and I don't know that there is an obvious solution. What needs to happen is a draw away from Abyssea and into vanilla areas of the game.


Some things to consider:

-Adjusting level sync to much more isolated applications. Maybe it should only work within five levels of the sync'd level. Maybe this could scale somehow with progression too, since level populations have never been equally distributed. This would help to bring back traditional parties.

-Raising the level cap in Abyssea to 76.

-Maybe include some kind of statistic bonus for gaining EXP in the game's 'native dimension' whereby players leveling in the traditional way may come out slightly stronger than players who don't. Like gaining .001 STR per Incredibly Tough monster in zones outside of Abyssea. These bonuses could be job dependent or even mob dependent. This shouldn't be too crazy, but something where a DRK who leveled in the traditional way might expect to have 5 more STR at level 99 than one who didn't.

-Some kind of 'rebirth' concept applied to 99 jobs where a player can choose to reset it to level 1 while granting a very significant boost to the job's potential. Abilities, stats, traits, w/e.

[Sayelle]

So you're asking us to discuss a problem, but at the same time demanding that we don't discuss the essential mechanisms of the subject?

Cool story bro.


You seem full of angst, calm down. If you're going to present something so loudly, make sure it's something that you actually understand a little bit.



The problem isn't with the game's economy as much as it is with the game's direction. The AH is bare because no one is playing the game that the AH was built around. Calling the situation complicated is almost an understatement, and I don't know that there is an obvious solution. What needs to happen is a draw away from Abyssea and into vanilla areas of the game.


Some things to consider:

-Adjusting level sync to much more isolated applications. Maybe it should only work within five levels of the sync'd level. Maybe this could scale somehow with progression too, since level populations have never been equally distributed. This would help to bring back traditional parties.

-Raising the level cap in Abyssea to 76.

-Maybe include some kind of statistic bonus for gaining EXP in the game's 'native dimension' whereby players leveling in the traditional way may come out slightly stronger than players who don't. Like gaining .001 STR per Incredibly Tough monster in zones outside of Abyssea. These bonuses could be job dependent or even mob dependent. This shouldn't be too crazy, but something where a DRK who leveled in the traditional way might expect to have 5 more STR at level 99 than one who didn't.

-Some kind of 'rebirth' concept applied to 99 jobs where a player can choose to reset it to level 1 while granting a very significant boost to the job's potential. Abilities, stats, traits, w/e.

Those are all pretty terrible ideas and don't really address the root cause of the problem.

[Sasukeuchiha]

I do not see any other way then makeing the game easier to drawn new people in by uping abyssea level cap. No new people to by the gear. Unless abyssea gets up to 70+ and theres a large influx of new players in the game to by the gear i do not see the isue being solved ether.

[Authority]

Camate, this isn't exactly to do with this topic but it is somewhat similar, and I didn't want to make an entirely new thread... have you ever considered changing the bazaar fees so people who are SELLING must pay the fee, not the buyers? I know the fees were removed in Jeuno, but not in Whitegate. It just seems kind of backwards.

[Selzak]

Those are all pretty terrible ideas and don't really address the root cause of the problem.
The root cause of the problem is that there aren't any new players, but we can't really do anything about that...


...so what next, if not draw players back to the core of the game?

[blowfin]

...so what next, if not draw players back to the core of the game?

The core of the game isnt leveling from 1-75, and to be honest it never really was. Gear hardly matters until you get past 30 anyway, but I do agree it would be nice to have the Auction House stocked just a little more.

Seeing as this has somehow come up again, besides the fact that its not even the problem in the first place, raising the level cap in Abyssea would damage this game immensely. Im not going into details but let me put it this way, I would be one player who would seriously consider quitting if that happened. There would be thousands of others who would do the same. Thousands of subscription fees being cancelled, millions in fees not being used to improve and push this game forward. Raising the cap like that is a sure fire recipe for them to destroy much of this games new found popularity in one foul swoop. And that is the last thing any of us should be wishing for.

[Sayelle]

The root cause of the problem is that there aren't any new players, but we can't really do anything about that...


...so what next, if not force players to level in a horribly inefficient way?

Fixed that for you.

You are right that the root cause is the lack of new players and there isn't really anything that can be done about that at this stage of the games life cycle.

The big thing a lot of people are neglecting is that the the vast majority of low level gear has little to no effect on your character. Most of the items that do anything useful come from NMs so those items not being on the AH is not a big deal. As long as you have a decent weapon you can be naked and it won't really matter if you're a DD. Mages get a little more use out of gear, but not enough for it to really matter as long as they have the refresh FoV buff.

One possible way would be to simplify crafting recipes for low level equipment, as an extreme example the Trader's/Baron's Saio requires 8 items to synth which is ridiculous for a level 20 item. If they would cut that down to 4 items it could make those profitable again. It would also help if the increased the availability and reduced the cost of getting crafting materials from the guilds.

Another idea which I just thought of is to make it so that the NPC crafters at a guild can craft items for you for small fee, say 100-1k gil depending on the level of the synth, as long as it's a level 30ish recipe or lower with no possibility of an HQ item. This would make it so it's possible to actually get lower level gear and not destroy any remaining markets for higher level crafters.

These are just a couple of ideas that could make a difference at the lower levels and not require radical changes to the way the game is played right now.

[Alhanelem]

-Raising the level cap in Abyssea to 76.Should not be considered. This will not accomplish anything that can't be accomplished by the playerbase.

All your anti-abyssea ideas are terrible too. There is no reason to bash down abyssea, whatsoever. stuff for gear past 90 isn't going to be in there, and any new endgame won't be in there. Thus, abyssea can be left alone.

in before begin raise /dont raise the abyssea level requirement debate. (for the 400th time...)

[Greatguardian]

You are right that the root cause is the lack of new players and there isn't really anything that can be done about that at this stage of the games life cycle.

I cannot disagree with this more. Lack of low level gear on the AH has very little to do with the number of players after said gear. Changing Abyssea like the previous poster mentioned won't do a darn thing about it, either.

Look at it this way: In order for a piece of armor to be on the auction house, someone has to be selling it. In order to sell this piece of armor, you only have two possible scenarios:

1) You craft a new piece of low level armor and place it on the AH.

2) You place a piece of armor you bought/received previously on the AH as you no longer need it.

The first scenario plain does not happen any more for reasons that have already been addressed a dozen times in this thread.

The second scenario is how the majority of low level gear circulated on the AH from 2007-2009. When people would level new jobs, they would buy some gear for it, EXP, and then sell it back a week later. However, the price of many items has dropped to the point where it's generally not worth even wasting an AH slot putting this armor up. Personally, I've NPC'd/Tossed pretty much all of my low level gear as opposed to putting it on the AH because I don't feel it's worth the trouble to put up armor that only sells for 1k-5k.

It's also true that more people are leveling in a more condensed manner than before. This has nothing to do with Abyssea, and everything to do with level sync. When players gained the option to artificially manipulate what level they were able to EXP at, of course they are going to gravitate to the levels which are more efficient. I'm not saying level sync was a bad idea; in fact, I'm certain the game would have been in a lot of trouble had they not implemented it. The population was dwindling, it was practically impossible for anyone to find a full party's worth of people seeking in the same level range as them; let alone people on compatible jobs. However, this is going to mean that armor and weapons in less efficient level ranges are going to circulate less.

If there is a sizable new player base which is unable to find any sort of armor (Taking into account the AH merge, which should help as well), the best things they can do are as follows:

1) Harvest. RMT are not pulling in mass amounts of base materials every day any more. Mining/Logging/Harvesting is a reliable way for low level players to generate income, and it provides crafters with the materials they would need to create new armor.

2) Encourage all players to level a craft skill. When I leveled Smithing, I ended up with tons of low level armor clogging my inventory and AH slots. At the time, I got more money just NPC'ing the darn things, but that ties into 3. Leveling a craft will directly increase the supply of armor.

3) Pay more for armor so that it is economically viable to sell it to players rather than an NPC. I wouldn't bother putting a subligar on the AH when it sells there for 2k, but sells to an NPC for 1,950g. This would encourage both new and old crafters to actually put new armor into the system. Making more synths economically viable will also allow newly leveling crafters to choose from a variety of potential synths for skill. For years, most of crafting was determining which synth produced the least profit loss to make and spamming that. If multiple pieces are actually profitable, you'll find more diversity in their production (though, you will still see a preference to spam that which is most profitable).

This isn't, and has never been, a Development issue. It is a player issue in a player-driven economy. The change has to come from players if they genuinely want one.

[Kaych]

I am not up to speed about the merging. Is it a merge of all the AHs in one world? Or all AHs in all worlds?

Will I be able to buy the items in Jeuno AH from Bastok? Or is it a merge that only connects all Jeuno AHs from all worlds?

[blowfin]

I cannot disagree with this more. Lack of low level gear on the AH has very little to do with the number of players after said gear

I think you`re probably understating a bit there. Higher demand would push up prices thus making it more viable to sell. It`s directly linked. Level sync probably did take a lot of lower level armor out of circulation, but I think the problem now is we`re still going backwards in terms of Auction House stock levels, and level sync has been around for a long time.

There`s also the fact that we level faster from 1-30 now than we ever have. The exp increase recently wouldn`t have helped either. Really it`s hard to see the role of the starter city auction houses as anything but catering to low level players, and that role is needed far less these days. Basically the cross section of time when both new players and old players alike are actually in one of those towns, and actually go to the auction house to buy something, is very slim indeed.

So yeah, this is very much about supply and demand, and the number of low level players (and the length of time they remain low level) is a big factor in determining the demand for low level gear. The micro economies that used to exist and were quite healthy in starter cities are pretty much gone now.

And it`s totally a development issue, the game has changed at the hands of SE around the start city auction houses, and they`ve remained the same. It`s all well and good suggesting people should go out and craft, or they don`t need low level gear but the facts are that some people don`t want to craft, and some people get a kick out of gearing themselves fully. The fact that the auction houses are being merged is also pretty clear evidence it`s a development issue.


I am not up to speed about the merging. Is it a merge of all the AHs in one world? Or all AHs in all worlds?

Will I be able to buy the items in Jeuno AH from Bastok? Or is it a merge that only connects all Jeuno AHs from all worlds?

They plan to link all the starter city auction houses with Jeuno or vice versa, whatever way you want to look at it. Nothing planned for inter world AH.

[Sayelle]

I cannot disagree with this more. Lack of low level gear on the AH has very little to do with the number of players after said gear. Changing Abyssea like the previous poster mentioned won't do a darn thing about it, either.
*snip*


I think that you misunderstood where I'm coming from, I completely agree that the best solution would come from the players since it is a player driven economy. I also don't think that any development changes are necessary to for a player driven change to happen, but some small changes could certainly encourage it to happen. Anyway, I'm about to leave work and don't have time to type a longer response, I'll do that when I get home later.

[Rambus]

The development team is aware of the problems you're all mentioning and are concerned about it as well. While we are planning on merging the Auction Houses in the next version update, we are aware that this won't completely resolve the issue. However, once the merge is completed, we'll closely monitor the situation and see what can be done to further address it.

You guys aware that abyssea made a deep impact on thaty situation, you guys didn't see it comming making the area accessable at 30?

[Alhanelem]

I am not up to speed about the merging. Is it a merge of all the AHs in one world? Or all AHs in all worlds?
All city AHes merged into the Jeuno AH. Same AH no matter where you go.

Not cross-server AHes.

[thelittlecrash]

ok from what i am seeing in all these post there are lots of ideas and i remember being a new player, and my suggestion to them is simple. if it drops from a mob and you dont need it sell it. AH NPC whatever gets you the most and save your gils. Low lvl gear is simple to get from ppl and we have the mentor system to help the new ppl. so i have to agree that if the new players arent staying it is there own fault for being lazy and wanting an easy economy to get rich in.

[Selzak]

Fixed that for you.
The point is to make it desirable so that people will want to do it.

The playerbase isn't going to just magically make a conscious decision to revive traditional components of the game if there's no direct reward involved. While my ideas were drastic, I did precede them with both the admission that I did not know a clear solution and by calling them considerations (I meant to imply that they are areas to look in to).


Should not be considered. This will not accomplish anything that can't be accomplished by the playerbase.

All your anti-abyssea ideas are terrible too. There is no reason to bash down abyssea, whatsoever. stuff for gear past 90 isn't going to be in there, and any new endgame won't be in there. Thus, abyssea can be left alone.

in before begin raise /dont raise the abyssea level requirement debate. (for the 400th time...)
I did not "bash down abyssea." I'm simply noting that the whole 'realm' of Abyssea has created a disconnect from the world of the core game, and suggesting that players should not be drawn to exist exclusively in the former- which is exactly what's happening. I don't miss the grinding, but I do miss the whole body of the game that was left behind with it. The AH is an extension of that, and when you don't have players leaving Kazham to go to Garlaige Citadel and leaving Garlaige Citadel to go to The Crawler's Nest you're not going to regularly see level 30-40 equipment on the AH.

Why does a level 30 character need to go into Abyssea? The only effect is that no one plays any jobs between level 30-75 now.

Playing a job has become:

Rush to level 30 solo / with PL / FoV
Key leech from level 30-70+
Throw on some Perle gear
Get to level 90.
Then start caring about the job.

To say that the playerbase can create a presence in the main construct of the game itself and that no adjustments need to be made to the cost/benefit ratio of doing that is extremely naive. Players aren't going to do something less beneficial for the sake of reviving key aspects of the game, players are going to do exactly what is most beneficial to them and nothing else- especially on a scale large enough to impact the game's economy and other functions.

If I could spend 300 extra hours taking a job from 1-99 to gain a five point stat bonus a few years ago I might have, but I sure as hell wouldn't now. I love Abyssea and all of the other log in and play changes that have been made to FFXI over the past year or so because I simply don't have the time to play LFP for an hour and a half then stay glued to a PT for five more- or you get nothing done scheme that the game grew up with. However, that traditional style (or at least some aspects of it, like a similarly leveled group of complimenting jobs taking advantage of skillchains and magic bursts) should be given some reason to exist. The old way was tedious and it was rightfully replaced, but what would be ideal is if the old way was revamped and both dimensions of the game could co-exist.

Players need incentives to create traditional six-man EXP parties to take their jobs to level 75, and they need a lot of them. Until that happens, the game's level 10-75 content will be in limbo.

[Kanjitai]

I'm glad to see SE sees this as an issue. I have a developed character and have no problem making gil. However finding gear on the AH has become a pain lately. I want to start a new character but lack of gear on AH and difficulty to make gil as a frsh out of the gate player turns me off to the idea. Things like gardening and fishing use to be a great way to make gil for newbies but it was nerfed to stop RMT.

Unless things are fixed we won't get new players and sooner or later the game will cost more then it makes. Going to PC only has come up in other threads and that be a good idea. They could redo graphics, give us a new expansion. I see the devs in their replies that it a lot of things can't be done and I think a lot of it has to do with keeping the game on a console. Sorry for the long post I just got in a grove and I wrote what I was thinking.

[Unaisis]

they should make some Magian Trials that start off as lvl 10 gear, but work up into the 99s and have some awesome stats! and requires non abyssea exp/conquest points to upgrade and stufff but thats like a few hundred trials.... SE wont do it lol

i dunno

[RAIST]

Just curious....was this an issue in 2002 when the game was first released? Just how did players make it back then?

Food for thought....discuss amongst yourselves....

[Alhanelem]

Why does a level 30 character need to go into Abyssea? The only effect is that no one plays any jobs between level 30-75 now.Besides grind, what did they do before? No one actually does missions or quests or BCNMs before they're max level.

The EXP increase somewhat solved this problem. If you really want to put together a solid party, you can still level up pretty fast out of abyssea.


Then start caring about the job.Not to downplay the advancement process, but this isn't anything unusual. No one cares what you can do before you're max level. As long as people do their homework ahead of time and learn about their capabilities, if they don't want to grind grind grind, I feel that's their choice. Smart people will still know what to do afterwards. This notion that everyone who speed levels to 90 doesn't know anything about playing the game is just not true. Yes, some people will be like that. But largely as a result of the lack of new players, this really isn't being a serious problem.

Remember, as every MMORPG gets older, the leveling gets faster. This is to allow anyone who joins the game "late" to "catch up."

[Kanjitai]

Just curious....was this an issue in 2002 when the game was first released? Just how did players make it back then?

Food for thought....discuss amongst yourselves....

back in 2002 there was stuff on the AH and ways to make money for new players. Now if your a fresh out of the gate newbie with no friends you'll find an empty AH and that you have to wait 3 months before you can garden. The quests in 11 are a joke. the ones you can do barely give you anything and the ones that do require a lot of fame plus a high level job to do them.

[RAIST]

back in 2002 there was stuff on the AH and ways to make money for new players. Now if your a fresh out of the gate newbie with no friends you'll find an empty AH and that you have to wait 3 months before you can garden. The quests in 11 are a joke. the ones you can do barely give you anything and the ones that do require a lot of fame plus a high level job to do them.

I seriously doubt there were crafted items on the AH when the game first launched in early 2002. Maybe when it finally made it's way out of Japan what... 6 months or so after it's initial launch.

The point I was trying to make is that the very first crop of new players...first experiencing the world with no guidance had to explore and find ways to make these items. They had to talk to the NPC's to get the recipes and share information with each other (unless someone had already figured out how to mine the DAT's in advance, who knows). Guess what...the very same in-game tools are there today (and in some cases the mats are more widely available), except all that information is freely available online, in print, and shared openly amongst the players.

Having an empty AH obviously didn't kill the game back then. The difference is the new players themselves were willing to put forth the effort to find their way. I've tried to give examples and hints on a path one can take. Even provided links to information to back it up.

And yet...there is still this assumption that the game needs to be put in beginners mode for new players, when it is already in easy mode by comparison. It's been said by others, and I'll say it again--the problem isn't with the game or the exisitng playerbase, it is with the attitude of the new players.

[Karbuncle]

I guess Asura is Different, I had almost no trouble finding gear for my PUP when i decided to take it up literally just 2~3 days ago. Only thing i had a little trouble with was Battle gloves, Which i found on AH a little later, and PUP parts. But i went and farmed my PUP parts, Killed ob ~3/4 times, got almost all his parts, and killed a few Troll Puppetmasters, both things normal players can't do. but then again, Most of the "low level" Automaton attachments can be bought from Nashmau.

When they merge the Auction Houses, i think that'll alleviate a lot. For armor level 1~10 where i have the most trouble finding it, There are NPCs in all 3 nations that general sell level 1~10(11~14 too) Armor CHEAPER than Auction prices by several thousand gil in most instances. I can't speak for 15+ cause on Asura that stuff usually has 1-2 items in stock.

Really, I don't see exactly what can be done outside of Merging AH to make low-level gear more accessible. Crafters don't craft it enough cause there just aren't as many low level players gearing up, so their stuff sells slower, It would have to be a solution that gives crafters a reason to craft this gear, Otherwise the AH will remain empty. And i truthfully can't think of any solution right now. But thats why I'm not a Dev :|

I'm just lucky on Asura for the most part i can find the gear i need... And I hope its gets better for lower level players soon.

Edit: And despite the Loud-screaming A.D.D LOUD-NOISES-Style OP describing the want not to include crafting. Crafting is 99% of low level armor. Unless there is something done about that, Then it will be the one strong push behind Low-Level Auction house. from 1~15 you can buy from NPCs relatively cheap, past that most of the good low-level armor is crafted. sorry :|

[Kanjitai]

a game can be easy and hard. world of warcraft for example. fresh out of the gate you can quest and get experience, gear, and money. true you don't get the best gear from quest and you can make better money from crafting. yes crafting is viable if done right and in my opinion the crafting system in 11 isn't done right.

The point is you can get to max level solo or if you chose with a group. also you play the game along the way. in 11 it's all about getting to max level then do stuff. that's not right. also even though it's not the best you get gear from the game so you can be useful to a group.

I haven't crafted in WoW just stuck to gathering. By doing that I make good money and can go to the AH and get better gear. That way I can go into the harder stuff in the game that requires 40 some people to do. I know some will get mad and say 11 isn't WoW or go play WoW. Your right 11 isn't WoW.

It's a great game and I still play now and then. When I do I see how much it's suffering and I want to help it but all my ideas get shot down with people saying we can't make it to easy. These are just my thoughts. If you agree with me thank you and if not I don't care.

[Karbuncle]

a game can be easy and hard. world of warcraft for example. fresh out of the gate you can quest and get experience, gear, and money. true you don't get the best gear from quest and you can make better money from crafting. yes crafting is viable if done right and in my opinion the crafting system in 11 isn't done right.

The point is you can get to max level solo or if you chose with a group. also you play the game along the way. in 11 it's all about getting to max level then do stuff. that's not right. also even though it's not the best you get gear from the game so you can be useful to a group.

I haven't crafted in WoW just stuck to gathering. By doing that I make good money and can go to the AH and get better gear. That way I can go into the harder stuff in the game that requires 40 some people to do. I know some will get mad and say 11 isn't WoW or go play WoW. Your right 11 isn't WoW.

It's a great game and I still play now and then. When I do I see how much it's suffering and I want to help it but all my ideas get shot down with people saying we can't make it to easy. These are just my thoughts. If you agree with me thank you and if not I don't care.

While i Agree with your point, Sometimes when it comes to "Good Gear" and players, Its not about having no access, Isn't about those players being really stupid.

To be frank, Its obvious here and everywhere FFXI related there are just some plain really really really really really really really really really really Stupid people. the Haste thread for one, Everyone with a brain stem knows Haste is superior to just about everything for most situations, but people will still argue not using it. thats not gear-availability, thats stupidity.

Thankfully, Some of the best gear available from 72~78+ is almost always in Stock (Dusk, Haub, Perle, Some Aurore (namely legs..feet maybe), Etc. And in FFXI, the "Quests" for Armor are here in a small way, the Seal Quests get you +1 Empyrean Armor. Admittedly a much much smaller scale than WoW Quests, but its a small step in the right direction.

As for low level gear, Perhaps adding an NPC Somewhere in the starting zones that offers Quests for low level gear. Think of it like a fetch quest, you get the item, your reward is a piece of gear, similar to how the level ~31 RSE System works. Except dont involve Chests... That'll be bad. At level 1 You'd get the option to chose up to level 10 gear, at 11 up to 20, etc. You get to prepare ahead.

It wouldn't "Help the AH", but for low level armor unless crafters are given a reason to do so craft, We might need to look for solutions away from AH, As it might be a better idea in the long run. We'll see though.

[Karbuncle]

Hate this websites Edit System? Double Post? something?

[Ravenmore]

You don't get that great of gear till the 30s anyway. Some of the gear starting in the mid 30s, before abyssea was either good or great till the 70s with only side grades till end game gear. Even then stuff like hauby +1 was still one of the best body pieces for the jobs that could wear it. Also how many of the people moaning over the low lvl gear even bother leveling low level jobs before the update notice for the level increase, there wasn't much up then and almost nothing was on the starter citys AHs except craft mats.

[Karbuncle]

You don't get that great of gear till the 30s anyway. Some of the gear starting in the mid 30s, before abyssea was either good or great till the 70s with only side grades till end game gear. Even then stuff like hauby +1 was still one of the best body pieces for the jobs that could wear it. Also how many of the people moaning over the low lvl gear even bother leveling low level jobs before the update notice for the level increase, there wasn't much up then and almost nothing was on the starter citys AHs except craft mats.

Agreed, Some things that come to mind are Leaping Boots, Republic Subligar, Mithra RSE Feet, etc.

I have a harder time finding Weapons than armor though. I think the last few times i went to gear up I had to buy a cheap-o Weapon off an NPC or from Conquest points.

[RAIST]

...all this talk about low level gear and availablity...just what is it that is unavailable that these people need?

I look at what is available from NPC's, and tbh, I don't see anything that expensive that new players wouldn't be able to get by with until maybe around level 20. By then, you are hitting Jueno, getting chocobo, and should be positioned to use some CP gear as well as using the Jueno AH to find alternatives (and when AH's join, you wil be able to get the Jueno listings in starter cities). Typically, this also means you've been sociallizing some and should have some contact with crafters and higher level players to help you get the nicer crafted/quested/farmed gears (I had completely forgotten about the RSE that you start collecting at level 27--some of those pieces can carry some race/job combos a LONG way).

Just would be nice to see some examples...because from what I see, the situation really only gets dicey maybe around level 20 if you don't yet have a group of friends to help you out, but even then you could just get CP gear that carries you until you can start phasing in RSE gear (which will require some help to obtain) and maybe some CP/Allied gear. Then you can (to some degree) get by until the AF1 tier of gear (again, will need some help to obtain). By that point, you are already getting into gear that is still readily available on the AH--even if that dies out, there are still pieces from mobs, BCNM's, and NPC's (allied/CP) that can be mixed in with AF to get you buy if you have to until you can get the Abyssea Gear. And before you say it...CP is earned at a double rate in comparison now because of the XP tweak, and your friends liekly have lots of Allied notes (maybe CP as well) to help you out. I myself have been getting lots of weapons for lsmates when my nation had rank to get them.

About the only thing I can think of that aren't too popular in the AH now that can't be earned from mobs/quests aren't really gamebreaking to the point that you will be an epic failure without them--and those are lower level crafted items that you can get someone to make for you easily if you just ask around.

tldr: did a little poking around, and wondering... just what is it that is so hard for new players to obtain on their own before they have friends to help them get them?

[Ravenmore]

Something else I leveled SCH to level 20 with just the starter RSE gear. I coulda went to the npc in port windy and gotten lvl 10 linen gear but there really not much reason to. But on topic short of SE seeding the AH with gear mainly weapons, the AH merge is the easiest and best option they can do at this point. Much rather have time spent on other things that need fixing then some thing that only effects a group thats really not going to grow any.

[Kanjitai]

hate to break it to everyone but if SE doesn't do anything to draw in new players the game will die. after awhile people will stop playing it happens. if too many stop it will eventually cost more to run then what it makes. nothing should ever be ignored just because some think it's not worth it.

[Ravenmore]

Why would they even try to get new players for FF11 when they haven't really done anything like that for FF14. The game is past its prime as the players base gets smaller SE will keep merging servers keeping cost down. We will also get to the point that we don't see content updates but they will keep the servers up till that wouldn't be worth it or only one server. One day they will shut down the game not anytime soon but it will end.

[Kanjitai]

at this rate 11 is doomed. also as for 14 I played since alpha and it has gone from very bad to bad and it has been out for 6 months. Rift launched with more content. it's obvious that ether SE should ether start doing some work on their MMOs or shut them both down.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Not that i see ffxi game ending any time soon...

but a lot of old mmo's that have gone under get sold to new companies who turn them into item mall type deals... or open rmt type games...

RMT's be buying mmo's now >_>

[Aleste]

Ask a stupid question, get a reasonably stupid answer~

What's wrong with say; if a product is out of stock for 1 conquest cycle that a NPC puts the product up (at either just above npc resale price, or average of the last 1-2 sales) with a small (~3-5%+) markup ?

Obviously stacks of items, NM drops, HQ items would be exempt...

~edit: Somehow I managed to fail at typing a 3 letter word.

[bungiefan]

Just curious....was this an issue in 2002 when the game was first released? Just how did players make it back then?

Food for thought....discuss amongst yourselves....

Everyone sold every item that dropped on the AH or in Bazaar, and the prices from players were a lot lower for things like crystals with a lot less gil available. Crafted items generally made a profit, and people leveled crafts so they could turn the items into others that people needed, since you could only level one craft to max. As more and more players joined and people played longer, more gil entered the economy, and more items were constantly available, so prices adjusted.

The main problem was few people being high enough level at certain points to kill monsters to get items to craft gear for those levels. We didn't even know level 50 was the max at release until someone rushed there 3 months or so after release, and SquareSoft congratulated him and released the first limit break quest in the next patch. The next problem was having crafters with the skill level to craft the high level armor. Quests weren't well known, there were no wikis, only forums, and most of those were Japanese-only. FFXIOnline.com and the GameFAQs board were about the only place for English help for importers.

Now we know the recipes and have a lot of crafters with the skill, and a lot of people with high levels that can kill things for item drops. Many of them have lots of gil and little they actually need to spend it on. Why buy armor and weapons when you can quickly get RA/EX gear that is better than any gil can buy? With so many people having millions of gil they won't use now except on consumables, the price of consumables gets higher, making a barrier for new players to afford those consumables. I'm still trying to get all my spells for my first mage job, and all my others are only level 60 or less, so I have even more scrolls to buy if I level those to 90. I'm broke, and my armor for my BLM above level 50 or so is all BLM-only, so gearing those other jobs to solo means I stay in Seer's and Savages set, or I convert cruor to gil (which a new player can't do) to buy NPC equipment with poor stats compared to crafted items.

[RAIST]

hate to break it to everyone but if SE doesn't do anything to draw in new players the game will die. after awhile people will stop playing it happens. if too many stop it will eventually cost more to run then what it makes. nothing should ever be ignored just because some think it's not worth it.

um...ok...I'll give you that SE needs to do something if they want to draw in new players, but putting it in beginners mode won't bring in new players. This isn't Field of Dreams (build it and they will come...). What SE needs to do to draw in new players is MARKETING.

Oh yeah, and it's not a question of whether it is worth it or not--adding easier to obtain gear simply is not NECESSARY. As has already displayed, easy to obtain gear is ALREADY in the game--people just aren't looking for it or something, idk. After all, the AH isn't the ONLY way to get gear.

The people joining now that aren't already fans of the franchise (and thus already prepared for the challenge because they've been playing the other games and would not be turned off by said challenges), I would suspect are people that picked up the game in a bargain bin or off of Steam because it popped up in an ad rotation somewhere as a $5 or $10 download. These casual players are NOT what this game was designed for, and, personally, I really would rather not see them reduce it to that mentality. It survived for nearly 9 years without easy mode. Things were a heck of a lot worse when it was getting started and it was able to build it's way to nearly 1 million users pretty quick--eventually peaking at 2 million WITHOUT giving away gears. This is something that should, can, and HAS been rectified in the past by the playerbase itself without intervention from the Dev Team.

The AH is intended to be a PLAYER driven side of the game's economy. In other words, it is up to the PLAYERS to provide crafted items...not the SE support staff. SE has already offered adequate gears for you to earn/purchase on your own if you don't want to craft. That is how the game was designed. It is your choice. Put forth the effort yourself, or find someone to help you out. Also, if you really want to do something about the availablilty....how about becoming a part of the solution yourself?

If you feel strongly about it, how about dropping 5-10k a pop into level 7 leather gear when your nation's vendors are offering it and putting it up in another city's AH? How about buying some of those pieces and upgrading them to the Lizard or Studded pieces and put them up in the AH's? I have done this some myself while buying/crafting/selling at cost some of these pieces for lsmates. And guess what? Some of it had to be RELISTED!!! After it came back a second time, I just desynthed the leather bandana and sold the leather instead...within a matter of minutes I might add. I even upgraded some pieces to lizard gear when they came back and listed those higher level pieces--some of those came back as well.

Again, instead of just complaining about the lack of items available, how about doing something about it yourself to contribute to solving the problem?

[xiozen]

I really think SE should make an NPC in each of the dedicated areas to sell gear around that level.

For example:
Nations 1-30?
Selbina/Mhaura 10-20
Jeuno 20-50
Norg/Rabao etc 50-60.
and so on

Make them affordable, but reduce the sellable price so people cant exploit.

I find it very difficult to get gear as a new player.

Hmm, considering SE introduced Reraise earrings with a type of tutorial NPC for new players, to me means they understand the need to "Help" beginners to this game get started... this thread is no exception, considering the current state of the game.
+
I love this idea. It can ACTUALLY work! An NPC (one ALREADY in the game, no need to create a new one) located strategically, based on leveling areas--offering gear items consistent with the area that they are in... now, similar to how the starter cities offer "bare-bones" weapons and armor sets--these NPC's should offer the same choices.

This really should only be needed up to level 39 or so, since the AF weapon (item) becomes available to jobs around that time... from there AF gear kicks in for all jobs, which "CAN" be technically worn til 75... so what are we realistically looking at: gear selections starting at around level 15 (i believe current stores/shops offer weapons/armor up to level 12)... then additional gear/weapon selections from 15 - 39 scattered around.

This would have absolutely NO impact on the crafting system... if anything, this may ADD to equipment/weapons to the Auction House for circulation...as well as offering possible desynth materials to high-end crafters.

[Glamdring]

This seriously needs to happen. I refuse to simply leech my character to Abyssea levels and I'm currently leveling Pup. I'm level 42 and still using Lynx Bagnakhas; not by choice mind you, it's simply all I can find. It's causing me difficulties in keeping hate off my pup (who is pretty good at avoiding hate anyway) because I simply can't do the damage to hold hate, even with provoking, and it only takes 1 hit to ruin the De/Activate tactic. My next legitimate chance at a weapon is if I use one of my higher level jobs to camp for Exocets (0/3 so far). Otherwise, I need to wait for level 58 and the poppet katars I managed to get. And this is simply 1 example, many players are confronted by this issue.

On a related note, blowing 30-50k on a stack of sushi at level 10 when the boost simply isn't that useful is totally unreasonable, but at least food you can get some mediocre stuff from NPCs. Were it not for my having gotten several crafts to 60 I'd be dreading ranger in a few weeks for ammo/bows. Unfortunately, my primary craft is leather, so with 60 wood, etc. supplies for job levels 50+ are a problem, too. I don't like the 2 craft +fishing +synergy to 100 option, maybe because the rewards with 1 craft>fishing>synergy have not been enough to pull people out of Abyssea long enough to make saleables.

The only realistic solution I see is to raise the number of items that can be up at 1 time, the sales never time out (you will have to withdraw and reprice items that aren't selling manually) and the AH fees lowerred to get crafters to once again feel it is worthwhile to put up that level 75 and below gear. The reason that noone is putting anything like that up is because there is a good chance that noone will try to purchase it in the 7 days and the crafter is simply throwing away the AH fee, possibly multiple times. Another option, but a longshot in my opinion, is to make low-level crafted gear a common ingredient in higher-level recipies/synergy, thus providing a possibly more steady market for this low-level gear.

[RAIST]

Hmm, considering SE introduced Reraise earrings with a type of tutorial NPC for new players, to me means they understand the need to "Help" beginners to this game get started... this thread is no exception, considering the current state of the game.
+
I love this idea. It can ACTUALLY work! An NPC (one ALREADY in the game, no need to create a new one) located strategically, based on leveling areas--offering gear items consistent with the area that they are in... now, similar to how the starter cities offer "bare-bones" weapons and armor sets--these NPC's should offer the same choices.

This really should only be needed up to level 39 or so, since the AF weapon (item) becomes available to jobs around that time... from there AF gear kicks in for all jobs, which "CAN" be technically worn til 75... so what are we realistically looking at: gear selections starting at around level 15 (i believe current stores/shops offer weapons/armor up to level 12)... then additional gear/weapon selections from 15 - 39 scattered around.

This would have absolutely NO impact on the crafting system... if anything, this may ADD to equipment/weapons to the Auction House for circulation...as well as offering possible desynth materials to high-end crafters.

Like these, perhaps?

Selbina:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Herminia
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Torapiont
(NPC's selling scrolls here also)

Mhaura:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Runito-Monito
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Mololo

Kazham:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Khifo_Ryuhkowa
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tahn_Posbei

Norg:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Jirokichi
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Achika
(NPC's selling scrolls and NIN tools here also)

If you actually read up on what they offer, the really expensive gears are pieces you wouldn't be able to equip if you are partying for xp out there. An example: in Kazham, the Battle Bow for 40k gil is a level 40 item from NPC, +1 sells for 20k in AH--and guess what, a Battle Bow +1 is up for sell in Jueno as I type this. The lower level stuff that you would be able to equip when xping in those areas is lower priced, and sells for less or on par to what you might spend to get similar gears in the AH. Level 24 Spear for 16-18k from NPC, The +1 version of that same spear sells for 20k in the AH.

So...all I see lacking here is that you can't get the +1/hhigh end pieces from the AH. Yeah, you may be spending the +1 price for the NQ version....but, you would be spending that gil in the AH and it really wouldn't be a gamebreaker to have the +1's at those levels--you're only talking a minor difference of DPS rating from 515 to 545 in the case of those two spears. It is basically going to take you the same number of hits to kill the same mob with each weapon, and you are only talking an 11 point difference in delay (1/6 a second per swing).

Once again....the option to buy adequate gear for reasonable prices from NPC's already exists out there.

[RAIST]

@Glamdring
I don't mean any disrespect, but using PUP as an example in a thread about new players is kinda out there. To unlock PUP, you had to hit level 30 and get to Aht Urghan, then quest the job. Also, by that time, you should have access to materials and crafters to make you some gears by then.

All that hardly qualifies as something a new player would have done. This whole "problem" is centered around new people entering the game who don't have the resources available like someone who has been playing a while.

Edit:: oh, and have you looked into getting some T.M. Hooks? Level 50 item you can get from CP(16k CP from Windy, Rank 5)--either your own or a friend? Might take some doing to get a 70+ Bonecrafter to +1 them for you, but even as NQ piece they are pretty solid. I forget the other CP pieces.. seems to me there were some level 30-ish ones from Bastok you couled get to use now.

Edit #2: eh.. my bad.. brain fart--those are level 10 that upgrade to level 15. About on par with damage per hit as lynx, but swing slower. Could try your luck at getting the Mythril from chests in altep--think you can spam FOV there at 42 for some decent xp too. Or just find someone to make them. easy mats to obtain, and it's only 48 smith/13 bone to make them. But considering you are only 8 levels from T.M. hooks......meh

[erevan]

Well thank you to the very few who tried to help come up with solid ideas for making an adjustment to the way the game has progressed. Its just too bad that most have to turn it into my way your way crap.

Why not have a way for the NPC's, that people sell items too, to let them put it up either the AH or a "NPC AH"? But this would work for the lower level gear/weapons, but I can't see it working for much above lvl 20-25.

[Kuvo]

So you're asking us to discuss a problem, but at the same time demanding that we don't discuss the essential mechanisms of the subject?

Cool story bro.


You seem full of angst, calm down. If you're going to present something so loudly, make sure it's something that you actually understand a little bit.



The problem isn't with the game's economy as much as it is with the game's direction. The AH is bare because no one is playing the game that the AH was built around. Calling the situation complicated is almost an understatement, and I don't know that there is an obvious solution. What needs to happen is a draw away from Abyssea and into vanilla areas of the game.


Some things to consider:

-Adjusting level sync to much more isolated applications. Maybe it should only work within five levels of the sync'd level. Maybe this could scale somehow with progression too, since level populations have never been equally distributed. This would help to bring back traditional parties.

-Raising the level cap in Abyssea to 76.

-Maybe include some kind of statistic bonus for gaining EXP in the game's 'native dimension' whereby players leveling in the traditional way may come out slightly stronger than players who don't. Like gaining .001 STR per Incredibly Tough monster in zones outside of Abyssea. These bonuses could be job dependent or even mob dependent. This shouldn't be too crazy, but something where a DRK who leveled in the traditional way might expect to have 5 more STR at level 99 than one who didn't.

-Some kind of 'rebirth' concept applied to 99 jobs where a player can choose to reset it to level 1 while granting a very significant boost to the job's potential. Abilities, stats, traits, w/e.

These are just as bad ideas as the "Jump to conclusions mat"...

The issue remains to be less of lower level equipment on the AH because players aren't doing low level things. The majority of players (according to the last SE poll) have characters lvl 75 what this tells me is not many people are either doing beginning content or there aren't enough new players to support the demand for low equipment or materials for that matter.

Level sync had a large hand in this because I know when I sync with another player and I'm the higher of the two I just keep my equipment on even though it has little to no effect on the lower level. I would never waste gil on buying the best low level stuff just to gain a little bit of exp now that i can sync down and keep the same gear i have on now. Sure it looks strange to see a dunes party with all AF and relic weapons doing 10-20 hits of damage but thats just how it is.

Combining all AH will help for sure cause now when I do pick up low level equipment instead of tossing it or NPCing it for a loss, i can now put it on a mule character or just put it up on AH and I know it has a better chance to sell.

[xiozen]

Like these, perhaps?

Selbina:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Herminia
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Torapiont
(NPC's selling scrolls here also)

Mhaura:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Runito-Monito
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Mololo

Kazham:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Khifo_Ryuhkowa
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tahn_Posbei

Norg:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Jirokichi
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Achika
(NPC's selling scrolls and NIN tools here also)

If you actually read up on what they offer, the really expensive gears are pieces you wouldn't be able to equip if you are partying for xp out there. An example: in Kazham, the Battle Bow for 40k gil is a level 40 item from NPC, +1 sells for 20k in AH--and guess what, a Battle Bow +1 is up for sell in Jueno as I type this. The lower level stuff that you would be able to equip when xping in those areas is lower priced, and sells for less or on par to what you might spend to get similar gears in the AH. Level 24 Spear for 16-18k from NPC, The +1 version of that same spear sells for 20k in the AH.

So...all I see lacking here is that you can't get the +1/hhigh end pieces from the AH. Yeah, you may be spending the +1 price for the NQ version....but, you would be spending that gil in the AH and it really wouldn't be a gamebreaker to have the +1's at those levels--you're only talking a minor difference of DPS rating from 515 to 545 in the case of those two spears. It is basically going to take you the same number of hits to kill the same mob with each weapon, and you are only talking an 11 point difference in delay (1/6 a second per swing).

Once again....the option to buy adequate gear for reasonable prices from NPC's already exists out there.

Thanks for the info. I admit, I didn't look, guilty as charged. Well that sorta blows my idea outta the water. Hmm, perhaps then if SE increased the amount of gil world-wide that NPCs' bought stuff from players at... I believe the NPC buy-back prices in the original areas have not been really adjusted or modified since the game was brought on-line. I think perhaps at this later stage the buy-back prices should be consistent with the economy. For example: A pair of bronze leggings buy-backed for 50 gil... bump it up to 500 gil etc... then the Auction house for the same item can be bought for 1k...etc... I don't know... just brainstorming.

[Glamdring]

@Glamdring
I don't mean any disrespect, but using PUP as an example in a thread about new players is kinda out there. To unlock PUP, you had to hit level 30 and get to Aht Urghan, then quest the job. Also, by that time, you should have access to materials and crafters to make you some gears by then.

All that hardly qualifies as something a new player would have done. This whole "problem" is centered around new people entering the game who don't have the resources available like someone who has been playing a while.

Edit:: oh, and have you looked into getting some T.M. Hooks? Level 50 item you can get from CP(16k CP from Windy, Rank 5)--either your own or a friend? Might take some doing to get a 70+ Bonecrafter to +1 them for you, but even as NQ piece they are pretty solid. I forget the other CP pieces.. seems to me there were some level 30-ish ones from Bastok you couled get to use now.

Edit #2: eh.. my bad.. brain fart--those are level 10 that upgrade to level 15. About on par with damage per hit as lynx, but swing slower. Could try your luck at getting the Mythril from chests in altep--think you can spam FOV there at 42 for some decent xp too. Or just find someone to make them. easy mats to obtain, and it's only 48 smith/13 bone to make them. But considering you are only 8 levels from T.M. hooks......meh

Yeah, I have looked into all of that. Unfortunately, the Mythril Claws are a craft only (I don't care about HQ), and pup weapon choice is really fairly sparse. I didn't see any need to go into the level 30ish weaps as they weren't any better than lynx (lower delay on lynx compensates for slightly lower damage). If a smithing buddy is on tonight I'll try to have him synth the mythril (I have all the materials, just not the levels to make myself). The Adargas require a material that is never available, and not much luck on exocets (0/3 with 90 thf and TH5).

As to the new player comment, Pup is really screwed on gear choice with mage gear but no native casting skill. Currently using my full mercenary captain set, I'll get the lvl 50 JSE from Brygid and switch to my crow set for the rest, subbing in AF as I reach levels. But the fact remains, there was better gear than what I have coming up that pup could use, if it were ever available; the fact that I have 4 90s doesn't say anything about what I did have that was usable for pup. I think I'm going to switch to /rdm to capitalize on the gear choices I do have until my AF, although my elf MP stinks, especially from sub only.

Basically, this was just an example. If you 1st went up the ladder as a war but want to play blm or rng or whatever you generally can't use the gear that got you to 30 in the 1st place. Your only real option is the weaker NPC sold stuff with the occasional quested piece (friar's rope, rse, etc.) or to just camp the AH in hopes of grabbing whatever when it might show up (I did that for a repeating X-bow to make my sharpshot, took 9 days) and THAT is the part that is so frustrating. The same for consumables, but npcs are a bit more viable there.

[Olor]

Just curious....was this an issue in 2002 when the game was first released? Just how did players make it back then?

Food for thought....discuss amongst yourselves....

I can't speak for JP release but... just after NA release when I first played...

No, it wasn't because there was almost always 1-17 pieces of every NQ non-useless gear on the AH in Jueno. Now when I look for a knife for my DNC most of the time there is exactly 1 knife of any type I can buy from 20-30 on the AH. This is a real issue (as evidenced by even the developers acknowledging it).

Heck back then you could even buy relevant gear for your job into the 30s in your LOCAL AH.

I will say it again - my preferred solution is increasing the number of skill-ups from crafting to give more people an incentive to start doing it.

[Mirage]

There are lots of NPCs selling low-mid level gear, but many items (specially in the mid-level range) are unreasonably priced compared to their stats. Of course, it can be problematic to price NPCs well when you also have a free, player-controlled market on the side.

I think it would be a good idea to revise the prices of at least some of the items for sale, and perhaps also which items are sold.

[RAIST]

I can't speak for JP release but... just after NA release when I first played...

No, it wasn't because there was almost always 1-17 pieces of every NQ non-useless gear on the AH in Jueno. Now when I look for a knife for my DNC most of the time there is exactly 1 knife of any type I can buy from 20-30 on the AH. This is a real issue (as evidenced by even the developers acknowledging it).

Heck back then you could even buy relevant gear for your job into the 30s in your LOCAL AH.

I will say it again - my preferred solution is increasing the number of skill-ups from crafting to give more people an incentive to start doing it.

yeah.. DNC kinda got the short end of the stick on weapons like PUP. I stuck to H2H till like 35 I think it was--didnt' even touch daggers on it until I could use my Fed/Wind. Kukri and bone/bone +1.

If you can get access to the Windy CP gears, may be worth it to grab the Merc. Capt. Kukri. These upgrade easily to Wind./Fed. Kukri when you level up some more. They will hold you well until Bone/Bone +1. Those weapons are ~35-45 craftable items--should be able to find someone that can make them for you. The Bone Knives may be a bit tricky (bonecraft), but upgrading the CP knives are smithing.

[chubrocka]

Why not have a way for the NPC's, that people sell items too, to let them put it up either the AH or a "NPC AH"? But this would work for the lower level gear/weapons, but I can't see it working for much above lvl 20-25.


Great idea!!!

[Jar]

Oh no one said that most gear in towns is affected my conquest <_< making alot of it unattainable for long amounts of time..

[Inflicter]

Your right, and I agree with this post and it also seems to me SE is only trying to keep the original players happy! and to keep them in the game. and not focused on bringing in new players and their concerns as you stated!

[RAIST]

/sigh.... prices at NPC's may seem unreasonable now when you look at the market history, but you have to remember you are seeing prices of items in the AH from when the market was dying out. People were undercutting the piss out of some items just to unload them so they could reclaim inventory space. I have some 500k+ items that I bought during this stage that were worth closer to 1 mill+ for the longest time. I am still holding some of them because I can't even get 200K for them now. Some items I bought for 100k I NPC'ed because the AH wouldn't even bring in a better price now.

Point is, the NPC prices are reasonable for their stats according to the markets that existed for a LOOONG time. Hence, no one feels it is worth it to craft and sell stuff for 5-20k now for a minimal profit and slow rate of return when adequate gear is available from NPC's. There is far better stuff for them to sell if they are needing gil (which, for the most part they don't need a lot now).

There really isn't a major benefit to these higher end gears now, considering the short time you will be in them anyway. Now, something like a Scorpion Harness (NQ/HQ) or Hauberk (NQ/HQ)--that's a differnt story, and definately an exception. But in general, for the most part, until you hit 30-40, most of the gear is so similar in stats that only a few pieces stand out--and even then they are eclipsed within 10 levels or less by something better. With the low TNL's up to level 50 or so, you are racing through gear anyway. TNL at level 50 is still only 7700xp. If you are soloing with Glacier page 5 FOV and nabbing 990xp reward at the end of each page it is over 2k xp for every 11 mobs--and you only need about level 40 gear to solo them effectively ( I did it with level 30-40 gears BEFORE the first of the recent level caps). If you aren't doing the solo thing and are managing to team up and get chain kills, it goes by really quick--7700xp is less than 40 Even Match mobs worth of solo XP, if you are chaining tougher mobs you are getting more than 200xp/kill on average and requiring even fewer mobs.

You guys just need to get past the need/want to have the top end gear all the time. It is really pointless when you are frlying through the levels and ditching them before they get any notable dings on them.

Here's a handy site where you can look at your gear options per job, organized by slot then level...in case you don't already have some sort of guide already.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/dyn/items/job.html

It loads kind of slow, but it has a lot of info and is easy to read--shows you the stats on each item in the list. Unfortunately it doesn't link directly to the AH site like the wiki does--but it does tell you how/where you can get them (column on right tells you if it's quested/purchased/crafted, click the item name and you get the details on how to obtain it). For instance if you click on the level 21 Beetle Harness, you get the crafting recipe as well as a link to the Vendor that sells it in Kazham and the average NPC price for it (10,833). Now you can check the AH site if you want to see what it goes for in Jueno for your server (which, happens to be 5k each, a little more than twice a day, 2 currently in stock on my server--HQ version is 15k, selling on average once every other day and only gives you 1 DEF and 1 EVA over the NQ):
http://www.ffxiah.com/

If you look at the numbers on that peice, it is at best only going to turn around 30k per day if there is only ONE crafter making them, and if that crafter manages to HQ 100% (which, btw never happens. Back when things were more active, the NQ sold around 9-10k (priced just under the NPC prices) and the HQ was upwards of 20k each, and they sold much faster as well.

THAT is why you don't see a lot of stuff on the AH now--the demand tanked on them. If enough people were asking for items to be crafted again, then they would be making them. For an example, a year ago, I couldn't sell Tsurara and holy water on the AH for a decent price--made more selling them to NPC's. Now, demand is up and I make a considerable profit on them. Meanwhile, items for the early gobbybag quests take a long time to sell--for the same or less than to the NPC at times. So, when I come back with a lot of cermet chunks--I put one on the AH, and pawn the rest. Often times, that cermet comes back to me, and I NPC it.

Some of us have actually tried to sell some of this stuff, and it just simply ISN'T MOVING. Sooooo.... either everyone starts asking people to make these items so they get a better feel for what is in demand and start putting it up again, or just buck up and get by with the NPC gears or craft your own stuff--just like the pioneers did when the game first went to market.

Edit: Just logged in and a pair of Ebon Gauntlets finally sold....I've been listing them since I dinged 90 WAR and DRK the first weekend in March. Granted, we had the server downtime--but I've relisted them at lest 3 or 4 times. They sold for a measly 90k. Just look at what is required to make them:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ebon_Gauntlets

Yield: Ebon Gauntlets
DEF: 24 HP +7 Accuracy +3 Attack +3
Lv. 71 WAR / PLD / BST / DRK / DRG

Smithing (90-95), Goldsmithing (??)
Fire Crystal
■2 x Dark Adaman Sheet
■1 x Scintillant Ingot
■1 x Iridium Ingot
■1 x Studded Gloves

These things require mats and crafting skills used to make Relic armors--someone with 90+ Goldsmithing and another person with 90+ Smithing have to make items to make these gloves.

[Glamdring]

as I said, increase number of AH slots, don't have sales expire and lower the fees. Another option, did you sell whatever to the npc? then let me buy whatever FROM that NPC! (gonna be a pain to check every NPC merchant in the game for a pair of mythril claws tho'). Of course, you could make the guild NPCs by anything made by that craft instead of just a few items in limited quantity; crafter gets SOME gil, players have whatever available when they need, even if the price is kinda "are you serious?! Do you know a good cardiologist?!"

[Olor]

Some of us have actually tried to sell some of this stuff, and it just simply ISN'T MOVING. Sooooo.... either everyone starts asking people to make these items so they get a better feel for what is in demand and start putting it up again, or just buck up and get by with the NPC gears or craft your own stuff--just like the pioneers did when the game first went to market.

OR - SE can adjust the game to fit with the times. Your "buck up or go home" attitude is a terrible way to keep new players - and if you want the game to be around and healthy for longer - that kind of attitude is not the way to do it. I seriously don't understand why you are against making things easier on new players - I guess you have never leeched a job in Abyssea - not ever, not once, right?

If you have you have no right to complain that new players want stuff handed to them while you and other established players sit back and get free exp while watching movies or doing whatever it is you do while you leech exp.

Also, most truly new players won't have their airship pass for Kazham by the time they can equip the beetle harness. But I guess they should go solo those beastmen strongholds in level 10 gears, amirite?

Back in the day people used to also be doing those things and you could team up. Now, not so much. And if you couldn't get your pass to go to go buy your beetle harness, there were some on the AH (at less cost than the NPC).

When I first got to the level I could use the beetle harness - there were none up on the AH. If I had been a truly new player (not a reroller) that alone could have been the dealbreaker for me.

People quit games over not being able to get gear. It is a true fact. Seeing an AH empty of lower level gears/not having an easy/affordable way of buying them from NPC makes the game seem like it is dying - and there are a lot of people out there that just are not interested in playing a dying mmo - especially with an established playerbase that has a sense of entitlement for themselves while demanding new players get no help at all.

[chubrocka]

as I said, increase number of AH slots, don't have sales expire and lower the fees. Another option, did you sell whatever to the npc? then let me buy whatever FROM that NPC! (gonna be a pain to check every NPC merchant in the game for a pair of mythril claws tho'). Of course, you could make the guild NPCs by anything made by that craft instead of just a few items in limited quantity; crafter gets SOME gil, players have whatever available when they need, even if the price is kinda "are you serious?! Do you know a good cardiologist?!"


Yes I agree Like I said. I personaly dont have any issue with gear at any level. Im part of the problem too. I never sold off my gear after i had my first capped level and started on another. I think though if the NPC option was there to hold the gear and be resold that people sell off to them, then the lower HQ gear wouldnt dissapear. This works now in this area of game.. years ago it would have been a nightmare on the economy. I also want to sasy that this isnt making the game easier in doing this its adapting to the game and its movement since abby (Im still not sure if they made abby to kill off the game).

To finish... All I know is If we as players dont push SE and ourselves to keep new blood going we will lose our game, I will do anything i can to make that not happen. I promote FFXI more now to people then i ever did before... Im trying my best to do my part.. think about it. if everyone who plays got 1 person to sign up and took them in, in game. helped polish them, guide them, then they to would promote it and we could start a HUGE grass movement and totally revive FFXI and then SE would have to listen!!!!!

[RAIST]

OR - SE can adjust the game to fit with the times. Your "buck up or go home" attitude is a terrible way to keep new players - and if you want the game to be around and healthy for longer - that kind of attitude is not the way to do it. I seriously don't understand why you are against making things easier on new players - I guess you have never leeched a job in Abyssea - not ever, not once, right?

If you have you have no right to complain that new players want stuff handed to them while you and other established players sit back and get free exp while watching movies or doing whatever it is you do while you leech exp.

Also, most truly new players won't have their airship pass for Kazham by the time they can equip the beetle harness. But I guess they should go solo those beastmen strongholds in level 10 gears, amirite?

Back in the day people used to also be doing those things and you could team up. Now, not so much. And if you couldn't get your pass to go to go buy your beetle harness, there were some on the AH (at less cost than the NPC).

When I first got to the level I could use the beetle harness - there were none up on the AH. If I had been a truly new player (not a reroller) that alone could have been the dealbreaker for me.

People quit games over not being able to get gear. It is a true fact. Seeing an AH empty of lower level gears/not having an easy/affordable way of buying them from NPC makes the game seem like it is dying - and there are a lot of people out there that just are not interested in playing a dying mmo - especially with an established playerbase that has a sense of entitlement for themselves while demanding new players get no help at all.

First off, if you are going to quote me, quote me properly: " buck up and get by with the NPC gears or craft your own stuff", not "buck up or go home"

And, there is no need to put the game in beginner mode when it is already in easy mode. I suffered with out access to a decent AH until I hit Jueno--that was at level 18 WHM. I remember it very clearly. I got invited to a party by someone I had been in dunes with and had friended me. I had no LS yet, just 2 people on my friends list. They took me through koroloka tunnel and I had no idea wth we were going. They had a PL and it was crazy xp. Hit 21 and the PL offered to take me to get the altep crystal. Partied up and off we went. Then he asked if I had the other crystals. I didn't have them all, and then asked if I had choco yet, which I didn't. He walked with me all the way to Jueno. I was still in cheap gears I got from Bastok Vendors at level 21 WHM.

And no, I dind't leech jobs through abyssea. I soloed/partied all of my 10 level 90 jobs to 75-78 but 1 before joining abyssea parties on them, and that one job was level 60. While I did go join an aby party at 60 on BST, I didn't leech in the sense that I sat on my butt. Well, truth be told, I did have to AFK to run some errands for about 2 hours when they first started. Otherwise, I was using jug pets, curing with my /DNC because I had regain atmas, used ACC food and fired off WS so that when my axes uncapped after a while I would skillup. I walked out of there at 90 BST with 292 skill and had learned Bora Axe.

And, you don't have to have an airship pass to get an item from kazham. I run there all the time to get mats and pick up stuff for people while I am there. The chat and delivery systems are wonderful things. It is also a simple item that is crafted from very common items with a level 36 crafting cap. Again, you can easily get these crafted if you just ask around.

As for people not teaming up, that is just a farse. At least in my experience. I leveled DRG, WAR, DRK, BST fromn 60 up via level synchs and such post abyssea release. When I was taking DRG, DRK, and WAR up to 75-78, I continuosly got invited to parties. I was level-synching down to fight in W. Ron., Dunes, Qufim, Kazahm Jungles, and even TAU areas. People just need to take the initiative and team up--put stuff in your /seacom and put your flag up, ask the LS/friends list, send tells, and/or shout. If you can't form a full party, you can low-man things and do the easier FOV pages--or even solo. XP in general just comes so much easier now there really isn't much point in just sitting around in town hoping for a blind invite these days.

If they are quitting the game over a lack of gear...then they are obviously not seriously seeking it out, and thus this game is certainly not for them. This game is a MMORPG, emphasis on the MMO part. It takes teamwork on varying levels to progress in this game. That is how it was designed, and that is what makes it unique. If you want to play a game like WoW or Runescape... by all means, go play those games. This is Final Fantasy XI Online.

[Olor]

And, you don't have to have an airship pass to get an item from kazham. .

Pray, how do you run to Kazham without the Kazham airship pass?

[chubrocka]

Pray, how do you run to Kazham without the Kazham airship pass?


Originally Posted by RAIST
And, you don't have to have an airship pass to get an item from kazham. .


Lmfao... now i really laughed out loud on that... Olor, he means things from kazham are sold outside of area lol. Not being in the zone. Great funny though 8).



olor what sever are you on???

[Olor]

Why does it matter what server I am on?

[Olor]

Lmfao... now i really laughed out loud on that... Olor, he means things from kazham are sold outside of area lol. Not being in the zone. Great funny though 8).



Oh, der. I fail.

[RAIST]

Pray, how do you run to Kazham without the Kazham airship pass?


And, you don't have to have an airship pass to get an item from kazham. I run there all the time to get mats and pick up stuff for people while I am there. The chat and delivery systems are wonderful things

. . .

I've heard of selective hearing... but selective reading?

[Olor]

. . .

I've heard of selective hearing... but selective reading?

Yeah, I deserve to be mocked now. Free pass.

:)

[chubrocka]

lets get back on topic huh....

[Flunklesnarkin]

What was the topic.. ways acquire gear without crafting or gil ... hmmmm.. very interesting OP >_>

seems almost like they want some hand out system

[blowfin]

seems almost like they want some hand out system

Thread tl;dr for you.

People just want to have a decent range of gear available to buy at low levels. It's nothing to do with wanting handouts. It's nothing to do with people being lazy. There's obviously a problem or we wouldn't be having the AH merges. It's that simple.

"Suck it up and level a craft, or be happy with shite from the NPC's" are both incredibly short sighted suggestions which ignore the fact that this problem has been developing for a couple of years now. While I'm sure low level players don't want all +1 gear, they certainly deserve something better than being naked unless they spend hours and hours gathering gear, until they get to level 20/Jeuno.

[Karbuncle]

Level 1~20 Gear, The Normal kind, Non-HQ, Can all be purchased from Starter-Cities for incredibly cheap.

You have places like the Tenshodo Shops in Starter cities selling low level (Up to soil i think) Gi-armor sets, Normal shops selling Up to (realistically) level ~14/15 armor sets, and so on. Conquest Points buy some of the better armors for low levels too. Its all Available pretty easily.

Post Jeuno (20+) theres almost always at least 1 of the item in stock you want. maybe not always. But a lot of the time theres at least some NQ instock.

Some of the more Obscure items, like say, Shade armor, usually isn't in stock. But I never seem to have problems finding gear on Asura, But if its bad other places i feel for new players. However some of them also need to understand for gear 1~20, The best place to look is generally Starter-City Shops, not the AH. I know Bastoks shops sell up to the Doublet-Class Armor (level 11) rather cheap, I know also Leather armor (Some good stuff early on) is purchasable very cheap. Most low level armor is pure DEF anyway.

After the Auction House Mergers, I think a lot of the problems will be eased, But rather its liked or not, the only real way to increase the supply to Auction house is to do something to make crafting low level armor more appealing.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Idk.. i soloed 17 of my subjobs to 37 way back when using the fov system... and gear at that level doesn't make a huge difference

I used the bronze / linen / w/e other trash was from the vendor or conquest tally merchant..

I can only imagine it being easier now with the exp boost and repeatable fov's...

bottom line is anybody who feels the need to blow a ton of gil on armor at that level has serious epeen issues.

system is fine.. if there was an actual demand for low level gear it would be on the AH.

and if it is a new player.. they really don't care too much about being in bronze / linen / conquest armor... its only old players with epeen issues that hate that >_>

I'm pretty sure armor/weapons also drops from the brown caskets as well.

[Olor]

system is fine..

If the system is fine I don't think we would have a developer in this very thread saying they are aware of the issue and are looking at ways to correct it.

[Fiarlia]

If the system is fine I don't think we would have a developer in this very thread saying they are aware of the issue and are looking at ways to correct it.

No offense, but there's certainly been times when the development team has been wrong in the past. Not saying they are now, just saying that when they say something like that, don't necessarily take it as 100% fact or a word from God or some such.

[Flunklesnarkin]

If the system is fine I don't think we would have a developer in this very thread saying they are aware of the issue and are looking at ways to correct it.

That is a horrible logical fallacy >_>

I'm going to assume you don't use your brain to make a living.

[blowfin]

No offense, but there's certainly been times when the development team has been wrong in the past. Not saying they are now, just saying that when they say something like that, don't necessarily take it as 100% fact or a word from God or some such.

I'm just taken aback by the number of people in this thread who don't seem to think that new players having a good range of gear available is a good thing. Any arguments that have been made are very weak when the auction houses in starter cities are basically empty.


That is a horrible logical fallacy >_>

Pot, Kettle? It's no worse than your blinding gem of wisdom about supply and demand on the previous page.

He's entirely correct by the way too.

[Karbuncle]

I'm just taken aback by the number of people in this thread who don't seem to think that new players having a good range of gear available is a good thing. Any arguments that have been made are very weak when the auction houses in starter cities are basically empty.

I think everyone believes the Auction house Merge is a wonderful thing.

I just don't think everyone believes we need to spoon feed new players gear. As the Dev Said, If the Auction house Merger isn't enough, They'll find other ways to resolve it. However i think the Auction house merge will solve a good Chunk of Issues.

Though Really, Level 1~15 People should buy armor from NPCs, Its cheaper and easier than AH. Past that I think this Merge will be a good idea.

[Olor]

I just don't think everyone believes we need to spoon feed new players gear. .

Well, I, for one, haven't been advocating for new players to be spoon fed. I've been suggesting making crafting easier to level (by increasing skill ups) because atm it is too expensive for a new player to get into (and would also provide incentive for older players to give it a whirl if they haven't yet). And increasing the number of affordable items available from npcs.

Neither of those things "spoon feeds" gear to new players.

[blowfin]

Though Really, Level 1~15 People should buy armor from NPCs, Its cheaper and easier than AH. Past that I think this Merge will be a good idea.

Well that the issue right there really. The AH should be the first option for people, certainly once you get to the second tier of equipment (leather gear etc.).


I just don't think everyone believes we need to spoon feed new players gear.

Ditto, working for it is very rewarding and a good exercise for people. You can get just as much satisfaction saving for and buying low level gear as much of the gear at end game. However, having nothing to work towards because supply is non-existent is a real turn off for new players. At least IMHO.

[Flunklesnarkin]

[QUOTE=blowfin;67080]I'm just taken aback by the number of people in this thread who don't seem to think that new players having a good range of gear available is a good thing. Any arguments that have been made are very weak when the auction houses in starter cities are basically empty.

Supply and demand is a logical fallacy ..

no.. just stop now ;o

[Fiarlia]

I'm just taken aback by the number of people in this thread who don't seem to think that new players having a good range of gear available is a good thing. Any arguments that have been made are very weak when the auction houses in starter cities are basically empty.

Pretty sure this isn't the first time I've had to remind you (and if not you, others arguing on the same side as you): I'm not against doing a little something to help. In fact, I've stated that multiple times. The only thing I've been arguing is the necessity. Why? Because it's not necessary, not at all.

As many have pointed out, there are plenty of ways to acquire gear - many often better than the AH. And for any way that costs gil, there's been many examples of how easy earning gil really is. There've been logical arguments showing all of this stuff, time and again. And most everyone on this side of the fence believes that some sort of help would be nice, despite the lack of necessity. For some people it may stop at the merging of the Auction Houses. For others there may be a few extra steps that would be a good idea (perhaps increasing drop rate of gear from mobs that already drop it and/or increasing the number/type of mobs that drop gear for low level).

Regardless of how much you may or may not want to admit it, the desire to "fix" or "not fix" the "problem" boils down to an opinion. People like OP/blowfin/Olor are of the opinion that helping would be a good thing. People like myself and Karbuncle share this opinion (gasp!), though may be reserved on how much helping would turn into a bad thing (spoon feeding etc).

We're not arguing opinions, we're arguing the facts: the most prominent being that it's simply not necessary, as getting gear for low levels is easy through a variety of avenues and means. Supporting the ways to travel said avenues is also easy. Hence all the examples to support this.

The post made on behalf of the dev team (from the community rep) is also an opinion. Because no matter how much they want to help, it does nothing to change how easy getting gear currently is.

[Karbuncle]

Well, I, for one, haven't been advocating for new players to be spoon fed. I've been suggesting making crafting easier to level (by increasing skill ups) because atm it is too expensive for a new player to get into (and would also provide incentive for older players to give it a whirl if they haven't yet). And increasing the number of affordable items available from npcs.

Neither of those things "spoon feeds" gear to new players.

Good ideas yes. Though I don't think making it easier will make it less costly to level. In fact it might make some items become more expensive due to increased demand, kinda defeating the purpose. But we wouldn't know till we tried.


Well that the issue right there really. The AH should be the first option for people, certainly once you get to the second tier of equipment (leather gear etc.).



Ditto, working for it is very rewarding and a good exercise for people. You can get just as much satisfaction saving for and buying low level gear as much of the gear at end game. However, having nothing to work towards because supply is non-existent is a real turn off for new players. At least IMHO.

Mmm, While i believe AH should be the first place to go. The Low-Level Armor shops in the cities are there for a reason. Just because you should be able to get them at the AH, doesn't make those Shops any more useful, or any less Available. They're there and should be used. That solves basic NQ Gear to ~15. Past that i agree theres a shortage of armor, I noticed it in a few things, I had to camp the AH for a few days for a pair of Battle gloves for instance.

[RAIST]

um... ok... some people are getting it, but some aren't. Some of you keep going back to gear not being in the AH of the starter citeis, and keep ignoring the prospect of acceptable gear being available from the NPC's--even when a specific example is given.

Again....please... provide some specific examples of not being able to find gear you need in a starter city. Several have stated that you can find reasonably priced, adequate gear from NPC's that will take you all the way to Jueno, where you are more likely to find higher teir gear in that AH (which WILL be a mute point once the AH's merge).

[blowfin]

Short and simple: if you think the auction house merge is a good thing we're on the same page. New players have already been spoon fed enough with the exp increase IMHO.

For me it boils down to this: We had a wide range of gear available to us on the Auction house back in the "olde days". Why shouldn't new players these days have the same? For me saving for and buying stuff of the Bastok AH was something I got a massive kick out of, you simply can't do that these days. The depth offered by that part of the game is long gone.

Again: The "craft it yourself" or "buy it from an NPC" arguments are short term, player driven solutions that ignore the actual problem and lack perspective.

[Fiarlia]

Again: The "craft it yourself" or "buy it from an NPC" arguments are short term, player driven solutions that ignore the actual problem and lack perspective.

Glass is half full vs. glass is half empty. This is only a matter of perspective, as I see it as there already being plenty of legitimate, acceptable methods already in place within the game itself.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Short and simple: if you think the auction house merge is a good thing we're on the same page. New players have already been spoon fed enough with the exp increase IMHO.

For me it boils down to this: We had a wide range of gear available to us on the Auction house back in the "olde days". Why shouldn't new players these days have the same? For me saving for and buying stuff of the Bastok AH was something I got a massive kick out of, you simply can't do that these days. The depth offered by that part of the game is long gone.

Again: The "craft it yourself" or "buy it from an NPC" arguments are short term, player driven solutions that ignore the actual problem and lack perspective.

Thinking you will be low level forever and spending a ton of time on that gear is short sighted ;o

[Selzak]

um... ok... some people are getting it, but some aren't. Some of you keep going back to gear not being in the AH of the starter citeis, and keep ignoring the prospect of acceptable gear being available from the NPC's--even when a specific example is given.

Again....please... provide some specific examples of not being able to find gear you need in a starter city. Several have stated that you can find reasonably priced, adequate gear from NPC's that will take you all the way to Jueno, where you are more likely to find higher teir gear in that AH (which WILL be a mute point once the AH's merge).
This isn't just about the starter cities and level 1-15 gear. There's an economic issue going on in the game where the vast majority of content outside of (and especially before) Abyssea has become completely neglected.

I've had to go 10+ levels with underequipped jobs while soloing in Qufim, for example. I happen to have a link to FFXIclopedia handy on my laptop so that I can find out if an NPC has what I need...and even then I've still been stuck without the appropriate gear.

It should be not be a novel thing to join an EXP party at level 40 with level 40 gear, and then put some of that gear on the AH when you get back and buy that shiny new BCNM weapon that you can finally equip. The game just does not roll that way anymore and it's more of a get to(wearing whatever you can scavenge) level 30 so you can throw it into the Abyssea machine and out pops a new job. This has had a drastic impact on the game (no one cares about levels 1-75/89 because you're not playing with anyone else anyway) that happens to show up very obviously on the AH. This is a bad thing, and I think it is the main argument going on whether or not everyone recognizes it.

For the sake of argument, though, let's pretend that we're all just imagining this problem and that all of these things are obtainable through NPC's. Still, I shouldn't need to travel across Vana'diel every 5 levels hoping that the previous week's conquest tally fell in my favor.

[blowfin]

Glass is half full vs. glass is half empty. This is only a matter of perspective, as I see it as there already being plenty of legitimate, acceptable methods already in place within the game itself.

I agree. I'm saying other people might not. Can you wrap your mind around the idea that i'm not just out for myself? I know it's a hard concept to understand on these forums.


Thinking you will be low level forever and spending a ton of time on that gear is short sighted ;o

Why would you think that? Are all your posts cheap shots at people? Personally I just think it would be nice for people below level 20 to actually be able to purchase rings, neck, and whatever else off the starter city Auction houses, if they want to. I certainly wasn't able to when I last took a job from 0-20.

[Olor]

Several have stated that you can find reasonably priced, adequate gear from NPC's that will take you all the way to Jueno, where you are more likely to find higher teir gear in that AH (which WILL be a mute point once the AH's merge).

http://www.ffxiah.com/browse/2/daggers

Okay let's say you are a level 40 dancer... on catsith... Which dagger are you going to buy? There isn't a single dagger for sale on the AH between level 31 and level 43. You already have the BEST level 25 daggers... but you are out there trying to solo - and it is getting really hard cause your level 25 daggers don't do so well against level 40 prey...

How can anyone argue this isn't a problem?

[svengalis]

There is conquest points gear and race specific gear that can all be gotten for free for low levels. Race specific gear can be worn until af. I put gear on the ah all the time and it doesn't sell so I npc it.

[Fiarlia]

I agree. I'm saying other people might not. Can you wrap your mind around the idea that i'm not just out for myself? I know it's a hard concept to understand on these forums.

Herp derp, I've got nothing else constructive to say so I'll say nothing and give an insinuated insult, is that what you meant to say? Cause that's how it read.

Really though, where on earth did you get the idea that I said you were out for yourself? And if I didn't agree that some others might not agree, why would I bother mentioning it's a matter of perspective in the first place. If I really thought that my point of view was the only way, I surely wouldn't leave room to include the opinion and/or views of anybody else (in other words, I'd have not said perspective, I've have simply said you were wrong). What I don't understand is that despite us being on the same page about a number of things you feel the need to dole out subtle insults and attempt to white-knight against the "bad guys."

Grow up.

[RAIST]

Crafting shouldn't be so easily dismissed as too hard and too expensive. There are countless guides out there that walk you through easy leveling paths that PAY FOR THEMSELVES. You get a lot of the materials needed to start crafting as you start xping. And the level 7-12 gears become craftable at low levels, and you can start upgrading some of the first tier of CP gears shortly after you take your first test in those crafts. While it's not perfect by any means... it IS an option that people are just dismissing too easily.

Here is just one example of how easy and beneficial crafting can be. I have a level 15 leather craft, and the only thing I actively pursued for it was my first test item--it was leveled as a subcraft to other stuff I was making to WEAR as I leveled up. With just that level 15 leather I can already make the entire level 7 leather set (fully craftable at level 9, some of it can be done from level 0), and the full level 17 Lizard set (some of which is done by upgrading the level 7 gear). These sets area also available for a reasonable price from the NPC's as well, btw.

Someone could reasonably take up leather early on largely with mats that drop as they are xping and buying mats from NPC, make pieces for themselves, friends, to sell in the AH--making gil, increasing circulation, skilling up, and making higher level gear that increases more circulation and skillups, and so and so and so forth. It is structured this way for a reason--so that you can craft as you xp, and enhance the player economy.

EACH craft follows a similar pattern, supporting differnt sections of the job base. You can pick the craft track that supports your job path and roll with it. I was making my own shihei before I even unlocked NIN because I leveled RNG to 30, crafting my own crap along the way.

[Selzak]

Thinking you will be low level forever and spending a ton of time on that gear is short sighted ;o
No one thinks that they will be low level forever. It's simply a matter of enjoying the experience as you go and maximizing your character's ability as you progress.

Thinking FFXI will be around forever and spending a ton of time on any gear is short sighted ;o


I know it hurts to lose all of that free EXP, but raising the cap on Abyssea to 76 would go a long way in fixing this problem.

[blowfin]

Herp derp, I've got nothing else constructive to say so I'll say nothing and give an insinuated insult, is that what you meant to say? Cause that's how it read.

Really though, where on earth did you get the idea that I said you were out for yourself? And if I didn't agree that some others might not agree, why would I bother mentioning it's a matter of perspective in the first place. If I really thought that my point of view was the only way, I surely wouldn't leave room to include the opinion and/or views of anybody else (in other words, I'd have not said perspective, I've have simply said you were wrong). What I don't understand is that despite us being on the same page about a number of things you feel the need to dole out subtle insults and attempt to white-knight against the "bad guys."

Grow up.

Really? You've wasted several thousand words covering points that, if you actually read my posts in this thread, you didn't need to mention to me. But hey, just blanket everyone who even mildy disagrees with you in the same bucket. I assume it`s much easier to rationalise.


I know it hurts to lose all of that free EXP, but raising the cap on Abyssea to 76 would go a long way in fixing this problem.

One of the reasons the cap is set at 30 is the issue that`s being discussed in this thread. We`d all be leveling half naked to 75 if we couldn`t enter at 30.

[Sparthos]

No one thinks that they will be low level forever. It's simply a matter of enjoying the experience as you go and maximizing your character's ability as you progress.

Thinking FFXI will be around forever and spending a ton of time on any gear is short sighted ;o


I know it hurts to lose all of that free EXP, but raising the cap on Abyssea to 76 would go a long way in fixing this problem.

Forward ever, backward never.

The cat is out of the bag, the horses have bolted, the rubicon has been crossed and there is no going back. If SE pulls an "Abyssea is for 70+ only", people will quit because frankly setting up a grind as a roadblock for content already beaten to death is silly.

SE took a gamble on Abyssea and this is one of the unintended (?) consequences. Either SE can create low/midlevel content of challenge, completely leave pre75 content to rot or somehow through a high level content involve the AH more readily.

Either way, the solution is never to take away something that wasn't an exploit to begin with.

[Selzak]

Forward ever, backward never.

The cat is out of the bag, the horses have bolted, the rubicon has been crossed and there is no going back. If SE pulls an "Abyssea is for 70+ only", people will quit because frankly setting up a grind as a roadblock for content already beaten to death is silly.

SE took a gamble on Abyssea and this is one of the unintended (?) consequences. Either SE can create low/midlevel content of challenge, completely leave pre75 content to rot or somehow through a high level content involve the AH more readily.

Either way, the solution is never to take away something that wasn't an exploit to begin with.
I guess you haven't been around long enough to see half of the jobs on the game be nerfed at some point?

While I agree that there would be some backlash (I've taken advantage of Abyssea leeching myself, especially for subs), I think that the overall balance of the game has been damaged far too much to just count our losses. This is different because it effects everyone and not a single job, but the game's history does include comparable situations that at least provide some insight into how big the impact would be.

Taking Abyssea away completely, yeah that would cause a lot of harm. Taking away the ability to readily leech a job from 30-90 would only upset people who already take this game so seriously that they probably wouldn't quit anyway. At the end of the day, the game would be much better off if it was structured so that people actually play in parties for the bulk of a job's progression again.

You do bring up a good point when you talk about content that has already been beaten to death, and this is why more needs to be done (ontop of raising the cap on Abyssea) to revamp but not eliminate the traditional experience. Whether that is incentive based, new content, or all of the above...people need reasons to do it. The EXP boost was great, but not quite enough.

[RAIST]

http://www.ffxiah.com/browse/2/daggers

Okay let's say you are a level 40 dancer... on catsith... Which dagger are you going to buy? There isn't a single dagger for sale on the AH between level 31 and level 43. You already have the BEST level 25 daggers... but you are out there trying to solo - and it is getting really hard cause your level 25 daggers don't do so well against level 40 prey...

How can anyone argue this isn't a problem?

Thank you, an example we can discuss.

You have the Best 25 daggers... would that be the upgraded CP item?

Federation Knife - 13 dmg, 180 delay, 2 ACC, 5 Attack (4.33 DPS)
Crafted as HQ synth, Smithing (26): Fire Crystal, Merc. Knife (2000 CP, Rank2 Windy), Iron Ingot


Simpler options:

lvl 30 Merc. Capt. Kukri (4000CP , Windy Rank2): 13 dmg, 194 delay, 3 ACC (4.02 DPS)

lvl 31 Mythril Knife: 12 damage, 195 delay (HQ is 13 dmg, 190 delay) (3.69/4.11 DPS)
Smithing(34): Fire crystal, Mythril Ingot, Chestnut Lumber
Estimated cost to synth: @10k if mats from AH, less if some farmed/crafted
NPC sells for @ 14,500 in Upper Jueno (Coumuna)

lvl 34 Mythril Kukri: 14 dmg, 200 delay (HQ is 15 dmg, 194 delay) (4.20/4.64 DPS)
Smithing (42): fire crystal, Mythril Ingot, Oak Lumber, Raptor skin
Estimated cost to synth: @ 11k if mats from AH, less if some are farmed/crafted.

lvl 34 Wind. or Fed. Kukri: 14 dmg, 188 delay, 3 ACC, 5ATT outside nation control
(HQ is 15 dmg, 182 delay, 3 ACC, 7ATT ouside nation control)(4.47/4.95DPS)
Smithing (38): Merc. Capt. Kukri, Steel Ingot
Estimate cost to synth: @4100 if kukri bought with CP(20k gil from AH), rest from AH

There are more advanced synths also with harder to obtain mats, or requiring additional synths to complete. Here is one example:

lvl 30 Thug's Jambiya: 13 delay, 210 delay, 1 dex (hq: 14 dmg, 194 delay, 2 dex)(3.88/4.33 DPS)
requires 3 crafts to make, mats run about 22k on Caitsyth, but can be farmed/crafted for less

There are also things like Archers Knife and Chiroptera dagger that can be farmed.

Most of these knifes are close in ther DPS ratings. Only 3 exceed your current weapon, one of which sacrifices your ACC/ATT bonus and requires an HQ synth to make. The only guaranteed improvemnt is to get the level 30 CP item and have it crafted to the level 34 Wind/Fed Kukri. This is an easy synth to get someone to do if you can get the mats to send, but you are looking at spending upwards of 4k per knife for less than a 10% increase in DPS.

Which begs the question, is it worth it to you to upgrade now, or wait to hit 46 and invest in the bone knives (which btw you might actually get for free while leveling):

lvl 46 bone Knife: 17 dmg, 195 delay, (light -5), 3 ACC, 3 ATT (523 DPS)
(HQ is 18 dmg, 190 delay, (light 05), 5 ACC, 5 ATT (568 DPS)
Bonecraft (41): wind crystal, Walnut Lumber, Giant Femur
Estimated cost on caitsyth: @1800 if mats from AH
***can also appear in chest in Xarcabard and W. Altepa Desert***

tldr: there is a CP knife that can easily be upgraded for as low as 4k on your server if you can get the mats and the knife. Otherwise, almost every other dagger available to you until 46 is on par or lower DPS rthan your current weapon. The dagger at 46 can be obtained while you are leveling in W. Altepa for free, or you can easily get it crafted for around 2k worth of mats on your server.

[Selzak]

Thank you, an example we can discuss.

You have the Best 25 daggers... would that be the upgraded CP item?

Federation Knife - 13 dmg, 180 delay, 2 ACC, 5 Attack (4.33 DPS)
Crafted as HQ synth, Smithing (26): Fire Crystal, Merc. Knife (2000 CP, Rank2 Windy), Iron Ingot


Simpler options:

lvl 30 Merc. Capt. Kukri (4000CP , Windy Rank2): 13 dmg, 194 delay, 3 ACC (4.02 DPS)

lvl 31 Mythril Knife: 12 damage, 195 delay (HQ is 13 dmg, 190 delay) (3.69/4.11 DPS)
Smithing(34): Fire crystal, Mythril Ingot, Chestnut Lumber
Estimated cost to synth: @10k if mats from AH, less if some farmed/crafted
NPC sells for @ 14,500 in Upper Jueno (Coumuna)

lvl 34 Mythril Kukri: 14 dmg, 200 delay (HQ is 15 dmg, 194 delay) (4.20/4.64 DPS)
Smithing (42): fire crystal, Mythril Ingot, Oak Lumber, Raptor skin
Estimated cost to synth: @ 11k if mats from AH, less if some are farmed/crafted.

lvl 34 Wind. or Fed. Kukri: 14 dmg, 188 delay, 3 ACC, 5ATT outside nation control (4.47/4.95DPS)
(HQ is 15 dmg, 182 delay, 3 ACC, 7ATT ouside nation control)
Smithing (38): Merc. Capt. Kukri, Steel Ingot
Estimate cost to synth: @4100 if kukri bought with CP(20k gil from AH), rest from AH

There are more advanced synths also with harder to obtain mats, or requiring additional synths to complete. Here is one example:

lvl 30 Thug's Jambiya: 13 delay, 210 delay, 1 dex (hq: 14 dmg, 194 delay, 2 dex)(3.88/4.33 DPS)
requires 3 crafts to make, mats run about 22k on Caitsyth, but can be farmed/crafted for less

There are also things like Archers Knife and Chiroptera dagger that can be farmed.

Most of these knifes are close in ther DPS ratings. Only 3 exceed your current weapon, one of which sacrifices your ACC/ATT bonus and requires an HQ synth to make. The only guaranteed improvemnt is to get the level 30 CP item and have it crafted to the level 34 Wind/Fed Kukri. This is an easy synth to get someone to do if you can get the mats to send, but you are looking at spending upwards of 4k per knife for less than a 10% increase in DPS.

Which begs the question, is it worth it to you to upgrade now, or wait to hit 46 and invest in the bone knives (which btw you might actually get for free while leveling):
lvl 46 bone Knife: 17 dmg, 195 delay, (light -5), 3 ACC, 3 ATT (523 DPS)
(HQ is 18 dmg, 190 delay, (light 05), 5 ACC, 5 ATT (568 DPS)
Bonecraft (41): wind crystal, Walnut Lumber, Giant Femur
Estimated cost on caitsyth: @1800 if mats from AH
***can also appear in chest in Xarcabard and W. Altepa Desert***
...Are you saying that because something is obtainable in the game, that the AH is irrelevant? You could make that argument about absolutely every item in the game that can be sold, and all you'd really be saying is that it's no biggie if the game's economy is dead- just go farm, make, camp, CP everything yourself!

Are players (especially new players) expected to have a 40+ craft before their first job is level 40, or switch nations just to get a new weapon for the next few levels?

[Olor]

Are players (especially new players) expected to have a 40+ craft before their first job is level 40, or switch nations just to get a new weapon for the next few levels?

Thank you... so much.

I mean seriously. Yes, these things are technically obtainable - but gimme a break. Most players don't want to spend their first month on an MMO farming/crafting.

I hope SE doesn't listen to people who claim new players that don't want to level every craft to 60 before leveling up their character are just lazy - or this game is gonna die fast.

[blowfin]

All the examples in the world of how to acquire items arent going to change the fact the the Auction Houses are empty.

[Olor]

All the examples in the world of how to acquire items arent going to change the fact the the Auction Houses are empty.

No, no no... According to RAIST people should just level Smithing to 30+ in order to get a knife... nevermind that the materials to level the smithing are probably not very affordable/available. If someone doesn't want to spend 100K leveling a craft so they can have a knife over lvl 25 to solo with... they are lazy!

And then when someone wants some level 30-40 gears to go with that knife they should go level clothcraft and leatherworking to do so... as well.

Yeah. I mean come on. That's just not reasonable. The learning curve in XI is steep enough - having no gear on the auction house drives away new players.

[RAIST]

...Are you saying that because something is obtainable in the game, that the AH is irrelevant? You could make that argument about absolutely every item in the game that can be sold, and all you'd really be saying is that it's no biggie if the game's economy is dead- just go farm, make, camp, CP everything yourself!

Are players (especially new players) expected to have a 40+ craft before their first job is level 40, or switch nations just to get a new weapon for the next few levels?


No, no no... According to RAIST people should just level Smithing to 30+ in order to get a knife... nevermind that the materials to level the smithing are probably not very affordable/available. If someone doesn't want to spend 100K leveling a craft so they can have a knife over lvl 25 to solo with... they are lazy!

And then when someone wants some level 30-40 gears to go with that knife they should go level clothcraft and leatherworking to do so... as well.

Yeah. I mean come on. That's just not reasonable. The learning curve in XI is steep enough - having no gear on the auction house drives away new players.

Where did I say that HE had to craft it? I said the he could GET it crafted. Have you never seen shouts for crafting assistance? Has no one in your LS ever asked if someone can craft something for them? Did you not even see that I stated that it is an easy synth to get someone to help you with? Here... let me point it out for you:


Most of these knifes are close in ther DPS ratings. Only 3 exceed your current weapon, one of which sacrifices your ACC/ATT bonus and requires an HQ synth to make. The only guaranteed improvemnt is to get the level 30 CP item and have it crafted to the level 34 Wind/Fed Kukri. This is an easy synth to get someone to do if you can get the mats to send, but you are looking at spending upwards of 4k per knife for less than a 10% increase in DPS.

and, btw, I never said the AH was irrelevant. In fact... in that post it is VERY relevant, as for each recipe I quoted estimations for BUYING THE MATS ON CAITSITH'S AH. The point is the AH is not the ONLY WAY TO ACGUIRE GEAR. It dind't even take me 10 minutes to pull up all that information, only needed 2 links:

http://www.ffxiah.com/browse/2/daggers
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/dyn/items/job19.html

[Selzak]

Where did I say that HE had to craft it? I said the he could GET it crafted. Have you never seen shouts for crafting assistance? Has no one in your LS ever asked if someone can craft something for them? Did you not even see that I stated that it is an easy synth to get someone to help you with? Here... let me point it out for you:



and, btw, I never said the AH was irrelevant. In fact... in that post it is VERY relevant, as for each recipe I quoted estimations for BUYING THE MATS ON CAITSITH'S AH. The point is the AH is not the ONLY WAY TO ACGUIRE GEAR. It dind't even take me 10 minutes to pull up all that information, only needed 2 links:

http://www.ffxiah.com/browse/2/daggers
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/dyn/items/job19.html
Who's arguing that the AH is the only way to acquire gear?

Btw thanks for pointing something out that was contextually pointed to only one of your examples. How about this one that was posted first:

lvl 34 Mythril Kukri: 14 dmg, 200 delay (HQ is 15 dmg, 194 delay) (4.20/4.64 DPS)
Smithing (42): fire crystal, Mythril Ingot, Oak Lumber, Raptor skin
Estimated cost to synth: @ 11k if mats from AH, less if some are farmed/crafted.
...or any of the others, really? It's odd that you'd mention it specifically for one random example if you meant to imply it for all of them.

Even if you did mean to imply that we should have all of them synthed, it's still only noting that items are obtainable (in a way that is much less direct than the system that players are meant to exchange items through but is currently bare).

I don't think anyone here was asking how to obtain the items that aren't on the AH. The issue is that in a healthy economy many of those items should be there and that you shouldn't have to jump through hoops (this includes /shouting for someone who's high enough in a particular craft and who might be willing to use the materials that you looked up online to build your level 32 dagger).

[blowfin]

The point is the AH is not the ONLY WAY TO ACGUIRE GEAR.

The point is that if the AH had decent stock levels, it's a far more efficient and convenient way to get your gear than crafting it yourself or having someone else craft it for you. I'm sure people are well aware that there are other means of getting gear. You're pretty much insulting people's intelligence by repeatedly implying they don't know you can craft weapons and armor.

[Flunklesnarkin]

use conquest gear.... quit being a noob and look it up

[blowfin]

use conquest gear.... quit being a noob and look it up

How do i shot conquest?

[RAIST]

Who's arguing that the AH is the only way to acquire gear?

Btw thanks for pointing something out that was contextually pointed to only one of your examples.

Maybe you haven't been reading all the posts here, but a large part of this thread is complaining about the lack of gear in the starter and Jueno AH's, and the flat out refusal to consider NPC gears, or the concept of either crafting something themsleves or requesting crafting assistance for the items they want. Ever stop to think that if crafters start seeing a lot of shouts/tells/lschat requesting gears in certain sets or certain level ranges that they might actually start to provide some of it?

And the context has been consistent. People just refuse to accept the fact that things are already in place for new players, they just refuse to use it. I'm not the only one that has been trying to point it out...please forgive those of us that have actually been trying to inform people of the alternative options to getting adequate gear from the AH.

I have been trying to provide examples and links to information for those that may not have it already. Throughout this entire thread, only TWO people have given something specific for us to explore to compare/contrast the options available.

What is the solution being pushed in this thread? Changing the entire Vendor, or crafting, or AH system (or a mix of them)? What is my solution? Learn how to use the EXISTING SYSTEM to meet your goals....just what is so bad about that?

[RAIST]

The point is that if the AH had decent stock levels, it's a far more efficient and convenient way to get your gear than crafting it yourself or having someone else craft it for you. I'm sure people are well aware that there are other means of getting gear. You're pretty much insulting people's intelligence by repeatedly implying they don't know you can craft weapons and armor.

It's not that I think they don't know.. they just write it off like it's not an option, when in fact it is common practice.

[Selzak]

What is my solution? Learn how to use the EXISTING SYSTEM to meet your goals....just what is so bad about that?
If you genuinely think that the people in this thread don't know how crafting or conquest points work, then nothing is bad about it. Thanks for your help, we understand now.

However, it isn't a solution it's a remedy. We're discussing something that is broken and you're telling us how to live without it. No one is arguing with you if you're just telling us that items are obtainable before they go on the AH, and I'm not sure that you've informed anyone of anything that they didn't already know- but if that was your intention, then I apologize for having the wrong impression about your posts.

[Sparthos]

I guess you haven't been around long enough to see half of the jobs on the game be nerfed at some point?

SE quit nerfing jobs when they took the new approach where players actually mattered. The age of harsh nerfs because the devs didn't forsee events playing out are over. Besides the RDM sleep/dispel/bind "nerf", everything has been steady improvement for all jobs.


While I agree that there would be some backlash (I've taken advantage of Abyssea leeching myself, especially for subs), I think that the overall balance of the game has been damaged far too much to just count our losses. This is different because it effects everyone and not a single job, but the game's history does include comparable situations that at least provide some insight into how big the impact would be.

There are various things SE could do besides imposing a nerf in Abyssea. Alternatives are superior to pointless nerfs that only further force older players out the door. You want to give people multiple options instead of taking away options.

-Make certain zones of Campaign like Bastion - fast EXP, low time investment. Cater certain areas to fit certain level caps.

-Create NPCs that warp players directly to ENMs/BCNMs, lower resets to 1/day and reward EXP for clearing BCNMs.


Taking Abyssea away completely, yeah that would cause a lot of harm. Taking away the ability to readily leech a job from 30-90 would only upset people who already take this game so seriously that they probably wouldn't quit anyway. At the end of the day, the game would be much better off if it was structured so that people actually play in parties for the bulk of a job's progression again.

Party play is over. Even before Abyssea, the idea of an EXP party was on its knees. Either SE revamps the old systems to make them of any use or they will continue to sit idle. The greater problem is at the top end where content is lacking rather than at the bottom where very few people care.


You do bring up a good point when you talk about content that has already been beaten to death, and this is why more needs to be done (ontop of raising the cap on Abyssea) to revamp but not eliminate the traditional experience. Whether that is incentive based, new content, or all of the above...people need reasons to do it. The EXP boost was great, but not quite enough.

The problem in XI atm is twofold. You have a lack of being able to the cap without leeching that could and should be addressed via adjustments to old systems and the greater problem of introducing new content to keep people playing.

In a top heavy game, priority should be towards all new content. A nerf on Abyssea access benefits no one and would not make people use the current slow systems, it'd just simply be the middle finger to quit the game.

[Mirage]

What is the solution being pushed in this thread? Changing the entire Vendor, or crafting, or AH system (or a mix of them)? What is my solution? Learn how to use the EXISTING SYSTEM to meet your goals....just what is so bad about that?

You don't need to change the entire vendor system to revise the prices on some of their gear, and what they carry. That, along with the merging of AHs, is probably going to sort out most of the problems.

[Olor]

I guess the question is - do you want this game to be friendly to absolutely new players y/n?

Cause if you want it to be friendly to new players, saying "look up the ingredients on a third party site then shout in Jeuno (which you may never have even been to) for a crafter high enough to make it" is counter-intuitive.

As far as I can tell people arguing against much needed adjustments on the grounds that someone could craft it... well, they might as well be arguing the game never needs new players ever.

This isn't 2003 anymore. People expect certain things from a non free-to-play mmo. Look at XIV - half the reason it is a complete mess is because SE thought they could pull the same crap they pulled in 2003 in 2010. The fact is, they can't. That's why they aren't charging subs - because people logged in when the game went live and couldn't buy anything but a level 1 weapon and weren't really interested in waiting three months for the crafters to catch up to demand.

[Leviticus]

Crafters won't make something that isn't worth their time to make. It's simple economics. Demand is low for low tier items, so there's no necessity or incentive to make them...
...There's two options available: Make it yourself, or offer crafters something worth their while to spend their time to make said item.

One of the major problems with crafting is the difficulty in finding even BASIC materials which makes materials expensive on the AH or tedious to obtain, which makes crafting not worth it, which makes making money difficult, which makes crafting no longer worth it because the market players (for example: new players or players on new jobs wanting low level gear) don't have enough money.
Inventory stacking issues aside for carrying the materials, crafting materials are just too difficult and/or tedious to get a hold of to make even the simplest items.

[GamerGuy]

It is true that first the variety of ammunition disappeared (poison bolts for example) and just last night I could not find any decent armor for nin42 to level up my subjob now that main is almost 90. Is this a result of fewer players and/or fewer players who craft? If so, the pending server merger may be all we need. If that is not enuf, we need to ask the development team to give us some relief in the next upgrade (u know, the equivalent of a Federal bailout...lol) by lowering the crafting requirements or raising how many items can be created with the same old ingredients or even stock the NPC's or AH themselves with items or make the drops more valuable or put more items in the treasure chests, the same way that they have made getting exp and skillups easier to get. Any other ideas?

[Olor]

GamerGuy it all depends on the server - merges will help - so will merging AH's together - however - I am of the belief more needs to be done, namely - increasing skill ups on crafts (preferably to at least 0.1 per synth) - which would encourage more players both old and new to level up crafting and/or putting more gear at a fair price on NPCs.

The truth of the matter is players of a modern mmo expect to be able to get gear when they need it - camping the auction house or having to beg a crafter to make what they need are just not on for most gamers. If that is what they need to do to be decently geared - they will quit and play rift or a game where the population is not all at max level/uninterested in new players

[blowfin]

Any other ideas?

There's plenty of them in here.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4771-Craft-Skill-Limitations

[Karbuncle]

The idea of all these other Systems, NPCs, Conquest Points, Etc, is to Mesh with the Auction house. They are a collaborative effort in collecting Armor. They are there for the strict purpose that if you can't find what you want on AH, Chances are if you look around you will find the armor at an NPC or at a Conquest Points NPC. All these things are there to obtain armor, Utilize all of them!

Auction house should always be a primary stop when looking for armor, But SE has Secondary Stops, and beyond. The Conquest NPCs and Shops are there for when the AH Isn't providing. And really, Most crafters are pretty nice people, Not all of them mind you, but most are willing to craft some small item for a new player if the new player asks nice enough. Its just a matter of finding one. FFXIAH used to have a "Find a Crafter" option on their item pages, IDK if they do anymore.

You can always use the AH to buy the materials, and find a crafter to help you. you could even HQ. FFXI is a collaborative effort between Community, AH, NPC, Crafters, Etc etc. You must utilize all of them, Not rely solely on one. For instance, The other day i needed a pair of Tigerfangs for my Automaton Frame, None in stock. I Bought the Items off AH to craft it, and went to farm a Scorpion Shell cause none in stock. Came back with 2 Shells, The First on HQ'd so i couldn't use it, Second one NQ'd and i put it to use. They person did not ask for a reward, But i let them keep the HQ and gave em 50k for being helpful. You don't have to tip, I did cause they were very nice, friendly, and even waited for me to get a Scorpion shell. Crafters are nice people, don't be afraid to ask for help. (BTW, I shouted in port jeuno for the crafter)

The auction House Merge should help, But its also up to to the player to get the item they want. Buy ahead too. For instance, I just purchased a pair of T.M Hooks +2 (Check Asura Server: Mule WilliamRiker) for 100k, My PUP is only 33, But when i get to 50 I'll have them ready. I prepared ahead. If i didn't get them when i got to that level, I would have bought a NQ, AH or NPC, and had it crafted. HQ or NQ it would be nice to use.

[Ravenmore]

Its been said so much before but if it wasn't for the easy leveling of abyssea most people wouldn't have even touch alot of the jobs. When jobs like rdm and whm main role expected by the player base from 1 to 75 is cure/buff why do it two times. DDs play the same in parties, engage biuld tp WS repeat. Tanks engage spam spells or voke to get hate if you even bother to invite one in the first place. Alot of these jobs people had already had at 37+. So really what logic are people using when they say making abyssea 70 or what ever going to help low lvl gear, cause even if they did make it that way would it really increase people crafting low gear when gil is so easy to get its just not worth the time to make the gear.

[Vaash]

SE could always auto add like 1 of every piece of gear every set time, up to a certain limit. It could be for a certain level group or maybe certain days of the week will add certain things to the AH.

[Octaviane]

"Some people in this thread seem to believe that new players have the intelligences of 5 year olds. I'm sure if they wanted to know something they would look it up. Most people have access to the Internet....especially people who are playing an online game".

I hate to say it, but there are a lot of players exactly like this. How many times the questions are asked "how do I do this", "what do I need for that", "where do I have to go", "I don't have a map", "what do I need to do for this quest/mission", etc, etc.

Before I bought a laptop, I printed everything out that I thought I might want to do on any given day or if I knew our LS was going to do something.

There is plenty of information out there for anyone to use. Imagine what is was like for the first ever players of FFXI, no wiki guides, nothing.

[RAIST]

The truth of the matter is players of a modern mmo expect to be able to get gear when they need it - camping the auction house or having to beg a crafter to make what they need are just not on for most gamers. If that is what they need to do to be decently geared - they will quit and play rift or a game where the population is not all at max level/uninterested in new players

Sounds like a personal problem, and not a game design problem.

If this were as big an issue as you guys are making it, FFXI woulkd have never gotten off the ground in the first place.....

[blowfin]

Sounds like a personal problem, and not a game design problem.

If this were as big an issue as you guys are making it, FFXI woulkd have never gotten off the ground in the first place.....

*COUGH* there is obviously an issue or they wouldn`t be merging the auction houses. It`s been mentioned countless times in this thread. I mean you can deny it all you like, but it doesn`t change the fact that we even got a post from the development team saying exactly that. Please stop implying people are lazy, either intentionally or unintentionally. It`s getting really old, and it`s making you look very rude.

Also, regarding your second statement. Expectations from MMO`s were far different when this game first got released. This is not 2003 anymore. New and returning players will be driven away by empty auction houses in 2011, its that simple.

[Olor]

Sounds like a personal problem, and not a game design problem.

If this were as big an issue as you guys are making it, FFXI woulkd have never gotten off the ground in the first place.....

Times have changed. It is not 2002 anymore. The expectations of MMO players have changed.

Witness XIV. I'll tell you straight that a good number of the people that quit almost immediately did so because it was difficult to find the gear they wanted.

And I will also say - that 75% of not being able to find the gear (in the first two weeks to a month especially) was due not to the horrific market system (which was horrific) - but because crafters hadn't gotten high enough to make it yet. So even if there had been an AH (for the sake of argument lets pretend there was) - there would have been very few (if any) of the item up - so players would be SoL (like FFXI today on many servers for newer players).

It should have been obvious to people that they shouldn't expect to be well geared right away in a game where most equipment was made by players because the crafters would need to get high enough to make the items. They didn't care. I had one friend who couldn't find bone hora for his pugilist and pretty much quit on the spot.

Knowing why the items aren't there doesn't lessen the frustration of being unable to gear your character properly. And no, telling someone to spend 100,000 in gil (and probably 1 week or more of playtime - not counting time spent farming gil/mats) leveling a craft to make a single piece of equipment is not a very good answer either - and it is totally senseless to oppose changes if established players don't think it is worth their time to help make the market work.

If you don't want to make what we have work - then don't oppose development changes which would adapt the market to the current reality for new players.

[Olor]

And honestly - which is more lazy - wanting to be able to spend the money you worked hard to earn on gear so you can work your character up in level and become part of the gaming community?

Or having a craft/multiple crafts leveled and REFUSING to supply the market for a small profit because it is easier to buy things with cruor and then npc them?

The hypocrisy is stunning.

[Karbuncle]

And honestly - which is more lazy - wanting to be able to spend the money you worked hard to earn on gear so you can work your character up in level and become part of the gaming community?

Or having a craft/multiple crafts leveled and REFUSING to supply the market for a small profit because it is easier to buy things with cruor and then npc them?

The hypocrisy is stunning.

Brofist

(/^_^)/\(^_^\)

[blowfin]

Or having a craft/multiple crafts leveled and REFUSING to supply the market for a small profit because it is easier to buy things with cruor and then npc them?

Well, no profit at all, or a loss is probably more accurate. However that does raise an interesting point. Why should new players be expected to level up through the crafting system when its clear theres no market demand for most low and mid level gear apart for a single use on yourself?

Either way, another nail in the coffin for crafting being a good solution.

[Karbuncle]

Well, no profit at all, or a loss is probably more accurate. However that does raise an interesting point. Why should new players be expected to level up through the crafting system when its clear theres no market demand for most low and mid level gear apart for a single use on yourself?

Either way, another nail in the coffin for crafting being a good solution.

Most people i know who took up crafting didn't do it until they had a good high-farming job. Because its incredibly expensive and slow.

So even in a perfect world, Crafting as a Solution for new players is flawed. The Gil/items required for such things would be near unobtainable for new players. Really I think when people bring up leveling the craft to make the armor as a solution its insulting to new players. When i bet 99% of the people suggesting that probably didn't even know what crafting was until they were ~30+ >___>

[blowfin]

Most people i know who took up crafting didn't do it until they had a good high-farming job. Because its incredibly expensive and slow.

So even in a perfect world, Crafting as a Solution for new players is flawed. The Gil/items required for such things would be near unobtainable for new players. Really I think when people bring up leveling the craft to make the armor as a solution its insulting to new players. When i bet 99% of the people suggesting that probably didn't even know what crafting was until they were ~30+.

Even another Nail~

Yup. From memory I looked at leveling crafts to make my own armor when I first started. Then I promptly decided that GS and Smithing (i started in Bastok) wouldnt reap any rewards until id invested a heap of gil, and that id rather kill things with my mate instead of farting about for weeks with synthing.

And that was in a healthy economy...

[RAIST]

Peopel with crafting mules probably started crafting at higher levels, but I know many that started it early like I did. I don't have a mule. I decided on day one that I wouldn't. I started crafting early--as I saw it's potential to save gil. I was determined to be as self sufficient as I could. I did it with items I got off mobs for the most part. It's not that hard if you do it right--there are even guides to walk you through doing it and earning gil. That was a choice I and many others made in the past, others apparently are not choosing too now. That makes it personal. Sorry if you think it's rude to say that... but it is factually true. So, as for the taking up crafting argument, new players starting new crafts and posting results in the starter AH's would be a good start to fixing the issue, just like it did in 2002. That is a viable player solution to a player generated issue--sorry if that again sounds rude, but it is true.

As for the veterans crafting--they no longer had an incentive to make the items, so they stopped. I stopped selling cermet chunks because they kept coming back. I made a few pots--they didnd't sell...and so and so and so forth. So, now I just npc the shards because I get more that way then I can in the AH. I've been trying to list drops for a profit above NPC prices in the AH--and they come back, so I just NPC them-=-those that can't be NPC'd, I bazaar for a while until I need th space and drop them. If people aren't wiling to buy for the price expected, than the item is eventually no longer produced/farmed and put on the AH. Pure and simple. If players need something--they need to let the players know so it can be provided by the players again. Plain and simple. Either they need to front the items, or be willing to pay a price for market sustainablility. Judging by the general tone of this thread...niether of those conditions exist. Again, that is a personal choice of the players--again, making it more a personal problem.

The lack of an AH in FFXIV was not what killed the enthusiasm for it. It was one of many things that disappointed would be players. Granted, it is an issue, but one that made it unplayable? If people were willing to adjust, they would have played it. As I have stated before--the wonkiness of the UI and various restrictions frustrated me...so close to FFXI, yet enough different to mess with my head, so I opted to go back to FFXI. My issue with that game was base playability moreso than the fact I'd have to make my own crap--that just adds an extra dimension to the play style. My issues were with the raw mechanics and functions in the game that I just wasn't ready to commit to learning at the time--maybe when I'm done with FFXI I'll take it up, but not going to do both at one time. I could do both just fine, and learn to like it. Them adding an AH, or streamlining the UI won't bring me back to it--I am just choosing not to right now. Personal choice.

And the merger of the AH wasn't done specifically for the new breed of players. This has been requested from the playerbase for YEARS. It is more to streamline the system requested by and being implemented more for the existing playerbase. They just recently realized there appears to be a decline in the markets to the point it is creating angst among new players. The decision to do this was under consideration long before this debate cropped up. A lot of things had to run through the process in the dev. circles before they got the go ahead on this.

Regardless if you are pro/con to tweaking things--consider this. If it is sooooo bad, and new players are leaving in droves over it.... why are we regularly picking up new players in our LS, and why do I routinely see people trying to form Dunes and Qufim parties (and not veteran players I might add--people in dunes without subjobs)? It would appear that in spite of the difficulty, people are managing to find gear and get along somehow...

[Karbuncle]

Admittedly I did not read the entire post and i apologize. But i just wanna comment on the last paragraph.

I think you're focusing entirely too much on "Its easy enough shut up noob" than thinking about how it would improve the quality of new players, and their experience in FFXI. If you check my jobs on FFXIAH, I have all of them ~30+, Most of them 90. I party at low levels often and you would not believe how often i hear players saying they enjoy the game, But its too hard to find good gear, Or its too hard to find a good item to farm, or simply asking the party wheres a good spot to farm/etc cause they can't find good ways to make gil, or the armor they want isn't in stock and they cannot find a crafter willing to do it without expecting a large tip.

Yes, Some people persevere, These are people who probably have friends/help. Not everyone plays this game immediately having friends/Linkshells/etc to guide them to the right shops, Show them how to farm, give them gil/items. There are probably just as many new players who end up quitting by ~lv20 because Stuff was too hard and no one would help them, as there are new people you find joining your LS.

I'm not saying its "SUPER HARD BRO", I'm only saying an Improvement to Low-level gear systems, how to obtain armor, Or even adding armor like the Suggestion in the other thread about low level gear, Can only serve to Improve the QUALITY of players that level range, and how much they Enjoy the game.

I don't feel its such a catastrophe if new players can get gear easier than us, Or have a simpler time getting armor without having to resort to bribbing a crafter, Praying they're high enough rank in Conquest or paying someone to spend their CP (which fat chance If you're a level15 Bastokan WHM in bastok, you're going to randomly find a Windurstian willing to pony up for Windy gear for your Mage job), or just plain being forced to NQ it up with Crappy NPC Gear, which btw, does not include Rings, Earrings, back, Belt, or Neck armor. (For the most part!)

It Is hard for new players who do not have friends, or Linkshells to help them a long, A system in place to aid those low level players should be considered. It won't harm, Why does it matter if its gets implemented or not.

Truthfully I wish that they had Implemented a System like the one suggest here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5164-Idea-to-solve-the-low-level-gear-problem.

When i was Getting my Maat's Cap, i would not have had to camp the AH 3 days in advance just to get the item i wanted.

[Olor]

I'm not saying its "SUPER HARD BRO", I'm only saying an Improvement to Low-level gear systems, how to obtain armor, Or even adding armor like the Suggestion in the other thread about low level gear, Can only serve to Improve the QUALITY of players that level range, and how much they Enjoy the game.

I don't feel its such a catastrophe if new players can get gear easier than us, Or have a simpler time getting armor without having to resort to bribbing a crafter, Praying they're high enough rank in Conquest or paying someone to spend their CP (which fat chance If you're a level15 Bastokan WHM in bastok, you're going to randomly find a Windurstian willing to pony up for Windy gear for your Mage job), or just plain being forced to NQ it up with Crappy NPC Gear, which btw, does not include Rings, Earrings, back, Belt, or Neck armor. (For the most part!)



This is exactly it - I don't understand the resistance to making things a bit easier on new players. The hardest part of the game shouldn't be finding an appropriate weapon for your job at your level - the challenge should be in the gameplay not in trying to navigate a byzantine economy.

[RAIST]

again... all of that is a player issue, not a game design issue. We are dealing with limited resources for development, and there are likely much more important things to work on that the players have no control over. This IS something the PLAYERS can fix...the call should be more for veterans to assist. A large number of us are trying already, just not enough.

If these new players are the type to just quit when it gets hard, then a lot of them will drop off when they get to TAU levels if they aren't leeching in abyssea. So, you are just lobbying to delay the inevitable.

[Karbuncle]

again... all of that is a player issue, not a game design issue. We are dealing with limited resources for development, and there are likely much more important things to work on that the players have no control over. This IS something the PLAYERS can fix...the call should be more for veterans to assist. A large number of us are trying already, just not enough.

Your arguments up to now have been quite rational, but the idea that anything we do on here is going to someone convince thousands of crafters to start pumping the AH Full of low level gear is an absurdity. The reality is there will never be enough crafters making unprofitable slow selling low level armor to completely erase the "problem". I'm not saying we need a solution right now, but As i said in one of my previous posts in this thread or the other one."...Again",

"I Think we should wait until the Auction house Merging and see how it playes out. If there is still the problem/complaints about it from new players, We should consider an alternative solution away from "Crafting"."

To which i found the Solution offered in the other thread would be a decent idea. It involves a current hot-item in low leveling (Fields of Valor) and has realistic implementations.

But anyway, One of the Reps has been going around to a lot of the popular threads saying basically "We're working on a lot of stuff now, Theres no development time to implement a lot of suggestions right now.". or thats what i get. It seems like we can't expect anything we suggest here to be added until next year, or when the current Roadmap ends.

So i'm game with not continue this discussion any further. You in? We can continue it 12 months from now :P

[blowfin]

Your arguments up to now have been quite rational

We're 23 pages in, there's hardly anything rational about his arguments anymore when they've been taken apart by countless people, yet he keeps coming back saying the same thing.

[Karbuncle]

We're 23 pages in, there's hardly anything rational about his arguments anymore when they've been taken apart by countless people, yet he keeps coming back saying the same thing.

I quite enjoy attempting to keep my conversations with a certain sense of Nice-ness :|

[RAIST]

We're 23 pages in, there's hardly anything rational about his arguments anymore when they've been taken apart by countless people, yet he keeps coming back saying the same thing.

IDK about being taken apart, but whatever...I just believe in taking a more proactive stance rather than sitting around waiting for someone else to do it for me. And I'm not the only one with this outlook--the very first reply in the thread was pretty much just defiant to the OP. Mine was trying to show what is out there, and what is coming. Since then I've been trying to show how people can make the existing system work--and I've been constantly attacked for it. Nevermind that it is a system that is known to work for those who pursue these option, as supported by others in the thread.

I'm just stating facts about the game--showing what is available, so people can see just exactly what options already exist to compare and contrast to what others are proposing, and make an informed decision. There is no denying that there are already options currently available to provide adequate gear.

This debate has come about simply because people stopped freely offering their wares on the AH, and there is a small group of people still expecting them to do it for free, a loss, or next to nothing--there is no reason to think that those items cannot still be made by SOMEONE in the game, just either no one is providing the incentive to make them or simply isn't asking nicely. When my perspective on the issue has been challenged with an example, I have gathered up the information and presented the facts. At least I am providing details and links for people to actually SEE what is out there already and not just saying:

Make it profitable for crafters to craft.

If you don't want to pay more money than what is obviously not attracting sales on AH, don't complain!

Again, this was the the very first reply in the thread. I put forth the effort to actually support the idea of using other options already in the game, and I get attacked for it--continually throughout the thread. It's almost as if they think it is someone else's responsibility to gear their toons and not themselves. If this is the general attitude of the in-game personalities of some of these players, that might explain why some may be having trouble getting assistance...but that is a whole other debate.

And speaking of some info, here is something I just looked up in the Jueno data on accounts that have been actively trading the last 30 days (for the most part, since the servers came back online). I searched each craft skill individually for people in Recruit Rank (11-20). This is the crafting skill range to make a ton of gear up to round level 15-17. It was just my server first, then out of curiosity, I looked it up against all servers:

69 smith (2000+ all servers)
16 cloth (560 all servers)
29 alch (1061 all servers)
48 wood (1455 all servers)
50 Gold (1309 all servers)
32 leather (868 all servers)
28 bone (901 all servers)
28 Cook (944 all servers)

That is a lot of people with a good foundation for crafting low level gears, with potential to easily move on to 20+ stuff for skillups if they want to take them further. Up to level 20, you are able to turn a lot of raw mats into items used to make higher tier stuff (cotton>thread>cloth>gear). It's possible the numbers are just as good or even better at higher levels as a lot of higher craft items require subcrafts in the 20+ range as well. So...I did another search for getting something more specific made:

Lvl 29 Seer's Tunic set: A single player must have 29 Bone, 25 Leather, 26 Cloth to be at or above the caps to make every one of these pieces.
57 (1778 all servers)

At the time of searching, I found 2 NA people listed as online at roughly 4:30 AM Eastern. On my server alone, there are up to 76 people getting close to being able to make at least 1 of these pieces for skillups, and over 2000 across all servers.

And here's another one I forgot about from earlier in the thread: the level 46 Bone Knife (41 Bonecraft). Level 38 onecraft can make reliably (38-40 can make easily with support and get skillups)
88 (2000+ all servers)

This begs the question: if you don't want or can't get vendor/cp items, is it really all that hard to find someone who can make stuff for lower level jobs?

[Karbuncle]

{DisclaimerII: Please not a lot of time i reference the word "You" or the like in this argument. This does not necessarily apply to "You" but "You as a general public" not you specifically}

Not all new players have the gil to fork over 50k for some +1 Armor because crafter don't feel its profitable enough.

I have a hard enough time spending that on the best leg armor for low levels (Republic Subligar). Which is still amazing and fast selling, Yet rarely is on the auction house... Its nearly 200% profit too...

I'm sorry but "Pay more of blow me" isn't a good argument when it comes to new players. Most will not have the gil to pay for all this, and there is where the problem is. Yes i know "GO FARM YOU'RE LAZY" again why do you care if new players can more easily access meaningful gear without hours of farming and hoping its on the AH?

I'll say this again so i don't get to far ahead of myself:

I think we should wait until the AH Merger, See if that solves the problem. If it doesn't and it still persists, we should look into solutions that move away from the AH and crafters.

Sometimes the solution isn't "Fill the crafters pockets with more gil". I'm not saying i want them to put this stuff up for little-to-no-profit, Thats insane. I'm only saying if this merger doesn't fix it. The solution needs to be found away from Crafting, Not toward it. Cause as you there yourself claim, the very first post is probably reflected on 90% of crafters. Until low-level players are willing to pay out-the-ass for low level gear, There won't be a market.

Edit: while you can /sea across 2500 people and find 2 people online with the craft you need. Did you happen to send either a tell and say "Hey, I"m a new player in bastok mines. Can you come here to bastok, Craft something, for little to no profit?"

I bet if you had, You would either be Ignored or gotten "I'm Busy". I don't deny you're the type of guy who would go out of their way to help others, So Am i. Go look at the "Fay Crozier" page on FFXIAH and come back. I crafted dozens of those, FOR FREE, back when they were more than 200% profit.

But as its plainly obvious by the man you yourself quoted, unless We're ready to be extorted, Low level armor is going to remain scarce. We need to look away from crafting. Cause I cannot blame crafters for wanting to make a profit, I can't, But some/all new players won't have the gil to pay out the-behind for These things, so we'd be back to square one.

Yes, I know its a "player" problem, but it doesn't mean it cannot warrant a Dev-Solution. Its no skin off my back if new players don't have to jump through hoops to gear up, Why is it to you?

[Ravenmore]

Low level crafted gear offers little over what you can buy off NPC/CPs. Only till you get to higher level does gear make a differance. Food makes up for alot more then gear will at low level, which once the merge happens will be easy to get at any level.

[Greatguardian]

If low level players want to decrease the cost of armor, they can increase the supply of the materials. Not only will they earn some gil, but their gil will go further if it becomes less of a headache to craft armor.

We're not working in a vacuum. The primary cause for increased shelf price and lower supply of Armor is the increased material price, which directly stems from a decrease in supply caused by RMT no longer flooding the market. Making crafting viable for a profit does not always mean paying increased prices for finished goods; it can also directly translate to decreasing the costs of materials.

Granted, there are more efficient ways to make gil even at low levels compared to harvesting/mining. However, the indirect benefit to gathering becomes the decreased cost of goods. Sure, everyone on a server can farm beehive chips and make gil quickly (this is an example, I don't know what the heck those sell for any more), but their increased income is going to be spent buying inflated goods. It's a conscious choice that the market makes.

With that said, I also agree that the AH merge may be vastly beneficial to this process. If for no other reason than the fact that players in starter cities will now be able to list materials bought from Guild NPCs instantly on the Jeuno AH.

[Bookong]

I really think SE should make an NPC in each of the dedicated areas to sell gear around that level.

For example:
Nations 1-30?
Selbina/Mhaura 10-20
Jeuno 20-50
Norg/Rabao etc 50-60.
and so on

Make them affordable, but reduce the sellable price so people cant exploit.

I find it very difficult to get gear as a new player.

*this*! just for the basics. there is plenty of rare/ex to help fill in gaps and give buffs, but a solid base of plain gear to help new players get powered up so they can be strong enough to earn the nicer stuff would be great. Gil may not matter when you get to endgame, but it's an uphill battle early in the game.

[Karbuncle]

Low level crafted gear offers little over what you can buy off NPC/CPs. Only till you get to higher level does gear make a differance. Food makes up for alot more then gear will at low level, which once the merge happens will be easy to get at any level.

This is flat out untrue, Its because this armor is so rare that makes it ALL the more precious. and its not only about craftable armors. Its just crafting happens to be the hot-topic. I'm also talking more about armor in general not being on the Auction house. Like the following.

Compound Eye Circlet.
Brass hairpins +1
Sage's Circlet
Kingdom bandana
Republic Circlet
Bone Armor+1 set
Beetle Armor+1 set
Republic Cap
Chache-nez
Traveler's Hat
Garrison armor set (Hey, a tie in to the "low-end content till high-end content" Thread)

Thats just up to level 20, and only looking through head armor. Each one of those has Stats that are important to low levels, HP, MP, INT, Etc. All may seem insignificant, but at those levels its because of their scarceness that they're so valuable, and in todays world, half of those armors are rarely ever on the Auction house.

Some legs off the top of my head.

Federation Slops
Baron's Armor set
Mage's Slacks.

Thats up to level ~20 as well

For Body... Items like:

Campaign Level 1 Armor .
Kenpogi +1 (offers DEX+1)
Power Gi
Republic Harness
Kingdom Vest
Kingdom Tunic
Priests Robe

This doesn't even account for Accessories. Black Neckerchief, Spike Necklace, Bone/Beetle Earrings+1, STR/DEX/ETC Rings, Belts like Priests Rope, Warriors Belt/+1, Brave Belt, Besieger's Mantle, etc. some of those offer amazing benefits to low level players. Food goes a long way, So does armor with meaningful stats. Look at items like "Mighty Ring" with Attack+5 Enchantment. or the Acc+2 Enchantment DEX ring. Amazing benefits.

Gear does make a difference at that level, Especially gear that offers DEX/STR/INT/MP/HP because at low levels that makes a lot of difference. The best level 20BLM in the best INT gear he can get will out-nuke a new player forced to buy NQ-NPC crap by 10's of Damage. while that seems laughable low, you have to consider the Average nuke at that level is ~20-50 Damage. The difference between 20~50 and 40~70 is significant that level, as much as at level 90 the difference between 200~500 and 400~700 is.

I know when i leveled BLM i made it my goal to deck myself out, Black Silk Neckerchief, HQ Armor with a little bit of INT+1 on it, I had to camp Ah days in advance to find this armor, and even then I had trouble getting a lot of it. But i could out-nuke a newb BLM who was forced into NQ Gear cause he didn't have the resources i had (Millions of gil, Friends, Etc) by 20~30 Damage a nuke or more. The difference is noticeable, especially because of how rare it is that level.

[Karbuncle]

With that said, I also agree that the AH merge may be vastly beneficial to this process. If for no other reason than the fact that players in starter cities will now be able to list materials bought from Guild NPCs instantly on the Jeuno AH.

I think this will be a monumental step, My only argument is that if this doesn't fix it completely, Our solution needs to be found away from crafting/relying on the AH for low level players. I think us Established players take friends, linkshells, Gil, Ability to farm, Knowledge of farming spots all for granted.

Even the best knowledgeable player right now who starts as a newb, will still need to be level ~20 and in Jeuno to make a meaningful profit on anything, enough to pay the prices Crafters want from low level armor.

I feel like the Merger will solve a lot however.

[Ravenmore]

Again all those stats can be made up for in food except lol eva for that lvl. cream puffs 7 int and you can't out level it same with sushi meat dishs what not. Really there not that many new players, most of the low level players are returning players that should know bout food farming and the like. There will be fewer and fewer new players so why waste the dev time for something that not a big concern with all the options that all ready in game.

[Karbuncle]

Again all those stats can be made up for in food except lol eva for that lvl. cream puffs 7 int and you can't out level it same with sushi meat dishs what not. Really there not that many new players, most of the low level players are returning players that should know bout food farming and the like. There will be fewer and fewer new players so why waste the dev time for something that not a big concern with all the options that all ready in game.

You seem to act as if those stats don't stack with food. They do, Actually. I can still eat Sushi if i'm wearing Mighty Rings. I can still eat Cream Puffs If i wear silk neckerchief. Just because food makes up for things at low levels doesn't mean those armors are any less important. For instance at low levels accuracy is still an issue. You could use Mighty Rings and Eat Sushi, or use the DEX+1(Acc2.Enhc) Rings and eat meat if you have some of the other HQ Armor.


Just because new players are in the minority doesn't mean they should be ignored. We've already through the last 23 pages discussed how the current systems in place are difficult or impossible to use for Low Level genuinely new players, then the only other option is NQ junk.

I'm not asking they divert all their resources to something like this, but they've fixed Low-level things in the past. Fields of Valor, Low-level Skill ups, the Double-Exp system (to a point), Signet-Bonuses, Etc. So it is possible to introduce a new means for low level players to find armor.

I want to once again reiterate, I Feel the Auction house Merger will solve 99% of Complaints, I'm only saying if it turns out it doesn't, resources (not a large amount) should be diverted to devising a way to make it easier for new players. Even if they're in the minority, They deserve attention just like High-level players do.

[Olor]

Again all those stats can be made up for in food except lol eva for that lvl. cream puffs 7 int and you can't out level it same with sushi meat dishs what not.

The person in HQ +INT gear who is also eating food... will still majorly out-damage the NQ noob wearing crap gear... and I have to point out for a new player it is WAY more cost effective to get stats from gear than from consumables - cause even if they level through their gear quickly - they can resell it. Money sunk into food is gone forever. A stack of cream puffs costs 11K and is only 6 hours worth of stat boosts.

Even myself with friends who have given me a lot would probably choose to eat apple pies, at 2K a stack. I just can't make enough money yet (I'm not in Abyssea) to keep up with food costs approaching 2K an hour.

[Olor]

As an aside - this thread is making me want to level blm

[Ravenmore]

Why buy HQ I went from level 1 sch to 20 in one day with wearing level 1 rse gear. I just went from level 1 mnk to 12 in a hour 1/2 both of these were solo. Low level exp comes so fast now wasteing gil on low level gear is not logical. Even at 20 gear choice if rare to find anything worth the gil that you'll level out of in a few hours of game play. Not to mention that you can get food from FoV books.

[Olor]

Yeah raven noobs should just level on easy prey in lvl 1 rse until 30 - and then leech till 90. Hell they shouldn't even bother with a subjob - no one will notice.

[Ravenmore]

EPs put out 130 exp so why bother trying to find a party before level 20. Hell before the exp increase I and many I know soloed rite by the dunes. I took one job though the dunes that was enough for me.

[Karbuncle]

EPs put out 130 exp so why bother trying to find a party before level 20. Hell before the exp increase I and many I know soloed rite by the dunes. I took one job though the dunes that was enough for me.

I solo'd to 30~40+ on almost every single one of my jobs when i got my Maats cap, But I know that wouldn't have been possible on some of those jobs without proper gear. Especially if i wanted to move from getting ~75 exp/kill to 100~200+ (I leveled back before the Exp increase...). So i see your point.

Right no however, i Am leveling PUP, And i can say for sure if it wasn't for Items i had to camp the AH for like Aega's Doublet, Battle Gloves, Beetle+1 Earrings, Mighty Ring(Found this on Mannalol), etc, it would be 100x harder than it is now.

I can find all the items above though because I'm not stuck to bastok, and I have the resources (Gil, friends, Etc), but i can see that some of the new players in this game are usually stuck in junk armor, having hard times soloing/etc on things i can easily take out, simply because they are stuck in NQ junk, while i sit in the best armor for the level.

I feel like i need to continue to say it, I think the AH merger will fix a lot of problems, But if it doesnt, Thats when we should look into these other solutions.

[Olor]

yeah I am looking forward to the merger in a big way...

[blowfin]

This begs the question: if you don't want or can't get vendor/cp items, is it really all that hard to find someone who can make stuff for lower level jobs?

Yes. If you don`t have CP, chances are shouting in jeuno for a crafter ain`t really gonna be an option for you.