View Full Version : March update and enmity
PlumbGame
03-15-2015, 01:17 PM
Will we be seeing an update to enmity caps, or a possible removal of the caps in the March update?
I feel this is something that needs to be looked at and adjusted. Tanks should not be losing threat unless a DD specifically does something to warrant said threat. It shouldn't be based off a cap nor should DDs strats revolve around things like turning (except on hate drop mechanics) or throwing relics rangers at everything or stuff like conspirator considering how fast another DD job can hit cap, especially thief. I shouldn't have to as a DD carry around full PDT sets because I know that I will be tanking due to caps (though I do anyways).
This isn't fun game play. At least to many people I know, I shouldn't speak for everyone. I should be able to bring a job like PLD to ALL content and not worry about something bouncing around between all the DDs and me.
DD jobs keep getting more and more powerful, but nothing is changing with enmity. It's making it not only hard to be a tank, but hard to enjoy being a DD. I still do enjoy it none-the-less, but I think about how much fun it would be if I didn't have to worry about ripping every WS I do or repeated multi-hits.
I doubt they will have enough time to address this issue before the upcoming update, but I also agree that there needs to be adjustment to the enmity situation. I don't think it's feasible to remove the caps because the values stored for it can only go so high. An easier solution might be to look into how enmity is calculated.
Manux
03-16-2015, 04:47 AM
or introduce threat meter for pld and the group party to see.
Alhanelem
03-16-2015, 05:36 AM
SE still seems to believe that no changes to the enmity system are needed even as damage outputs have increased by several orders of magnitude and all dps are at or near cap hate all the time unless they hold back a LOT.
Jassik
03-16-2015, 06:07 AM
Do you think anyone would go back to standard party setups even if they fixed enmity? As long as mp is unlimited and DD's can survive, nobody will choose to take longer to accomplish the same end. Simple party checklist: can DD's survive... Yes, bring SAM... No, PLD/RNG start...
I don't think a threat meter would help the problem at hand. I can tell when I have 20k total enmity without a bar. The problem is enmity builds too fasts, and is near impossible to get rid of without using an ability to remove it, or dying. If DDs backed off enough to not be capped on enmity then they wouldn't do enough damage before timing out. I say to prevent this from needing adjusted in the future the formula for determine cumulative enmity for damage dealt should be based around how much total hp the target has rather than some hypothetical 240 delay sword at the targets level.
That being said I wouldn't mind having a threat meter though. It sounds like a useful tool for knowing when to use abilities like enmity douse. Libra could just do something useful instead like display basically a /checkparam of the target.
Malthar
03-16-2015, 06:33 AM
I've got it! Increased enmity decay food!
But make sure it also has acc and attack on it, or it probably won't be worth it.
Manux
03-16-2015, 07:44 AM
I've got it! Increased enmity decay food!
But make sure it also has acc and attack on it, or it probably won't be worth it.
Yeah thats a good idea but only will buy if it makes a big difference.
Also I would rather prefer it as an ability for PLD since its a tank class or make Sentinel decay after the next Sentinel recast so that we only need to provoke it once or flash it once to take back hate.
The only way adding an ability to pld would work is if it took enmity away from other players like accomplice, or added enmity to a third category that takes total enmity up above 20k. The reason tanks can't hold hate is because everyone apart from relic rngs doing anything will have capped cumulative and volatile enmity. If everyone is capped everyone's total enmity is equal so the person targeted by the target is the person to make the last aggressive action to it, like hitting it. When I do something like an AA fight on thf I don't even use sneak attack. All my weaponskills are done with trick attack on the pld, and I still cap hate with just auto attacks. Even with losing enmity from shadows, status effects, and having my hp thrown into the red I pull hate with auto attacks. That is how bad the enmity situation is.
Manux
03-16-2015, 10:22 PM
The only way adding an ability to pld would work is if it took enmity away from other players like accomplice, or added enmity to a third category that takes total enmity up above 20k. The reason tanks can't hold hate is because everyone apart from relic rngs doing anything will have capped cumulative and volatile enmity. If everyone is capped everyone's total enmity is equal so the person targeted by the target is the person to make the last aggressive action to it, like hitting it. When I do something like an AA fight on thf I don't even use sneak attack. All my weaponskills are done with trick attack on the pld, and I still cap hate with just auto attacks. Even with losing enmity from shadows, status effects, and having my hp thrown into the red I pull hate with auto attacks. That is how bad the enmity situation is.
u got a point
Malthar
03-17-2015, 01:46 AM
AoE enmity absorb spell/ability on a 10 min timer.
AoE enmity absorb spell/ability on a 10 min timer.
you mean like Caper Emissarius? Sch's SP2
If they were to make enmity static on a single player it would have negative impacts on the over-all gameplay. Considerations for survival (such as strategy, sub jobs or gear etc.) need to be a decisive factor else the game devolves into tedious wow-style gameplay.
When I do something like an AA fight on thf I don't even use sneak attack. All my weaponskills are done with trick attack on the pld, and I still cap hate with just auto attacks. Even with losing enmity from shadows, status effects, and having my hp thrown into the red I pull hate with auto attacks. That is how bad the enmity situation is.
Assuming you are correct: this is not the case through-out the game and isn't reflective of the enmity situation as a whole. Generally the system works well and better than most other games. The more likely reason you are pulling hate with just your auto attacks (which I agree should not happen) is because the tank isn't generating enough enmity to effectively compete with you. That would still be the case rather the enmity caps were raised or not. Though I can't be sure because I wasn't there: it is more likely your problem occurs because you were consistently hitting the archangel with your auto attacks and your tank was consistently missing with his.
The obvious solution is for you to un-equip your daggers and miss too. I'm kidding of course. But the real problem here is that to reliably survive higher level battlefields Paladins must neglect their melee stats and focus almost entirely on mitigation which severely hampers their offense. A constraint the other more damage oriented melee jobs feel no need to oblige as evidenced by the OP: I should not have to have a full -pdt set because I'm a DD.
This approach creates an imbalance in the group and the tank suffers. Why should only the Paladin or the tank generally have to take the extra time and effort to defend their character against higher level attacks?
I can assure you the pld had plenty of enmity from the two rng's decoy shots and my trick attacks. And this is the enmity situation as a whole. I just use AA as an example because it's the only event where I actually see plds and a tanking strategy is used. Other end game events like avatars, delve, skirmish, and incursion we forgo tanks and just use support to keep the front line DDs alive. Why don't we use tanks in those? because tank strategies only work when the DD generate no enmity, like with rngs, and in those event all the worst attacks can be prevented. By the time a mega boss is at 3/4 hp everyone has capped enmity and it spins like a top.
As for why tanks need tanking sets? It's because it's in the job description, like why I have damage sets on my damage dealing jobs. Going above and beyond on pld would be making good damage dealing sets, just like going above and beyond on thf is a -dt set. I do understand the plight of pld though. That's why I'm in support of improvements to enlight, and have my fingers crossed that Creed reforged will be good for tanking and tp.
Alhanelem
03-17-2015, 08:48 AM
is because the tank isn't generating enough enmity to effectively compete with you.The problem here is everyone caps hate pretty easily. So for the tank to keep hate, he has to generate hate immediately after someone else generates hate, rinse repeat endless cycle. As long as all of his actions are generating enough enmity to bring him to max, you can avoid the mob spinning like a pinata, but it's pretty silly that there's no way to have more solid control of hate than that other than have the DDs stop doing their job for X time every so often.
Ophannus
03-17-2015, 04:57 PM
The problem with enmity is this:
High damage should be punished with a lot of hate because if DDs can deal high damage without threat of being hit, DDs can be as liberal as they want. If DD actions produce very little hate, then all a PLD or tank has to do is use a few JA/Spells and they lock hate on them for most of the fight, whilst DDs have nothing to fear except AoEs. This is how many MMO actually work and it's actually a poor system. Damage dealing should be risky, higher damage=higher risk of pulling hate. Pull hate too often or for two long and risk getting killed. On the other hand, enmity from damage dealing, while actually 50% of what it used to be 3 years ago(they nerfed it), the damage scaling has increased tremendously in the last 3 years due to 26% haste gear being plentiful and the linear exponential growth of ilvl stats/base DMG.
Where do you draw the line of balance between making high damage punishable and risky, but also foster strategy and tactics so the tank has the resources to get and maintain hate. If they let tanks surpass the hate cap, then DDs will never be able to pull hate as long as the tanks stay at least 1enmity above the cap. That would be a broken system because once a PLD is beyond the cap, DDs could zerg as they please without fear of stealing hate, mages can drop high enmity nukes or spam cures with reckless abandon. SE would counter this probably with frequent hate-reset TP moves or instant-death attacks.
One way to fix this is to vastly increase mob's single target attacks but buff the DEF/ATT formula such that PLDs take reduced damage versus these huge attacks, but a WAR or DRK get rocked for huge damage if they pull hate. It would usher in careful DDing, bringing THFs, subbing /NIN, and even evasion tanking because perhaps even with an Ochain PLD, perhaps the mob hits too hard that you'd need an Evasion tank, with Utsusemi, Blind and Accuracy Down attacks.
elqplau
03-18-2015, 02:46 AM
The problem with enmity is this:
High damage should be punished with a lot of hate because if DDs can deal high damage without threat of being hit, DDs can be as liberal as they want. If DD actions produce very little hate, then all a PLD or tank has to do is use a few JA/Spells and they lock hate on them for most of the fight, whilst DDs have nothing to fear except AoEs. This is how many MMO actually work and it's actually a poor system. Damage dealing should be risky, higher damage=higher risk of pulling hate. Pull hate too often or for two long and risk getting killed. On the other hand, enmity from damage dealing, while actually 50% of what it used to be 3 years ago(they nerfed it), the damage scaling has increased tremendously in the last 3 years due to 26% haste gear being plentiful and the linear exponential growth of ilvl stats/base DMG.
Where do you draw the line of balance between making high damage punishable and risky, but also foster strategy and tactics so the tank has the resources to get and maintain hate. If they let tanks surpass the hate cap, then DDs will never be able to pull hate as long as the tanks stay at least 1enmity above the cap. That would be a broken system because once a PLD is beyond the cap, DDs could zerg as they please without fear of stealing hate, mages can drop high enmity nukes or spam cures with reckless abandon. SE would counter this probably with frequent hate-reset TP moves or instant-death attacks.
One way to fix this is to vastly increase mob's single target attacks but buff the DEF/ATT formula such that PLDs take reduced damage versus these huge attacks, but a WAR or DRK get rocked for huge damage if they pull hate. It would usher in careful DDing, bringing THFs, subbing /NIN, and even evasion tanking because perhaps even with an Ochain PLD, perhaps the mob hits too hard that you'd need an Evasion tank, with Utsusemi, Blind and Accuracy Down attacks.
Sounds like wat RDM used to beable to do
The problem here is everyone caps hate pretty easily. So for the tank to keep hate, he has to generate hate immediately after someone else generates hate, rinse repeat endless cycle. As long as all of his actions are generating enough enmity to bring him to max, you can avoid the mob spinning like a pinata, but it's pretty silly that there's no way to have more solid control of hate than that other than have the DDs stop doing their job for X time every so often.
My notion is if one player could maintain hate at all times - especially on the more difficult boss fights - it would have a negative effect on the gameplay and strategy. Which is why on games like WoW and Final Fantasy 14 they must constantly add gimmicks to boss encounters to make them more interesting. That is because the actual flow of combat is so predictable and shallow. I don't want to see that happen to this game.
I believe when the party is balanced and well-played solid hate control is possible. But as I alluded to previously - if all the melee are decked out in full damage gear and wholly neglecting their defenses on a difficult boss encounter they are most likely going to die because no amount of flash or provoke is going to save them unless they hold back.
My notion is if one player could maintain hate at all times - especially on the more difficult boss fights - it would have a negative effect on the gameplay and strategy. Which is why on games like WoW and Final Fantasy 14 they must constantly add gimmicks to boss encounters to make them more interesting. That is because the actual flow of combat is so predictable and shallow. I don't want to see that happen to this game.
I believe when the party is balanced and well-played solid hate control is possible. But as I alluded to previously - if all the melee are decked out in full damage gear and wholly neglecting their defenses on a difficult boss encounter they are most likely going to die because no amount of flash or provoke is going to save them unless they hold back.
One player can maintain hate at all times. They use it for the more difficult boss fights. It's the pld rng strategy. I feel it has a negative effect on gameplay. All of delve is extremely gimmicky.
I can assure you the pld had plenty of enmity from the two rng's decoy shots and my trick attacks. And this is the enmity situation as a whole. I just use AA as an example because it's the only event where I actually see plds and a tanking strategy is used. Other end game events like avatars, delve, skirmish, and incursion we forgo tanks and just use support to keep the front line DDs alive. Why don't we use tanks in those? because tank strategies only work when the DD generate no enmity, like with rngs, and in those event all the worst attacks can be prevented. By the time a mega boss is at 3/4 hp everyone has capped enmity and it spins like a top.
As for why tanks need tanking sets? It's because it's in the job description, like why I have damage sets on my damage dealing jobs. Going above and beyond on pld would be making good damage dealing sets, just like going above and beyond on thf is a -dt set. I do understand the plight of pld though. That's why I'm in support of improvements to enlight, and have my fingers crossed that Creed reforged will be good for tanking and tp.
Where I think we disagree is you seem to think mitigation armor is meant only for tanks and to wear such armor is not in the job description of any damage dealer. But so far in my experiences on this game - especially for melee jobs who have to fight up close and have less tools for shedding enmity - mitigation can be important for them too. Especially if they intend to play aggressively.
I do recognize this is less of an issue with you since you play a thief and have evasion/shadows as a form of defense. So these comments aren't really aimed at you specifically.
I would not describe creating a damage set for Paladin as going above and beyond. You pretty much have to if you want to tank any fight where mitigation is not necessary to survive - else you won't be able to compete with the damage other jobs are throwing out. Flash and cure (provoke too if you sub warrior) will only do so much and won't close the gap if the damage differences are too great between you and the other party members. So if paladins have to create a damage set to play their role on lower level fights I don't see why damage dealers should not be expected to create a defensive set to play their role on higher level fights. To me that is fair and that is what I was trying to point out.
One player can maintain hate at all times. They use it for the more difficult boss fights. It's the pld rng strategy. I feel it has a negative effect on gameplay. All of delve is extremely gimmicky.
Through the use of a strategy they can. That was my point. So I think you misunderstood my post.
If all a tank had to do was walk into a fight and spam flash/provoke/cure and never lose hate it would prevent the group from having to implement any kind of strategy to control hate. This is the way it is on other games. I prefer the way it is on this game - where hate is an actual factor that must be considered and strategized around.
The problem with enmity is this:
High damage should be punished with a lot of hate because if DDs can deal high damage without threat of being hit, DDs can be as liberal as they want. If DD actions produce very little hate, then all a PLD or tank has to do is use a few JA/Spells and they lock hate on them for most of the fight, whilst DDs have nothing to fear except AoEs. This is how many MMO actually work and it's actually a poor system. Damage dealing should be risky, higher damage=higher risk of pulling hate. Pull hate too often or for two long and risk getting killed. On the other hand, enmity from damage dealing, while actually 50% of what it used to be 3 years ago(they nerfed it), the damage scaling has increased tremendously in the last 3 years due to 26% haste gear being plentiful and the linear exponential growth of ilvl stats/base DMG.
Where do you draw the line of balance between making high damage punishable and risky, but also foster strategy and tactics so the tank has the resources to get and maintain hate. If they let tanks surpass the hate cap, then DDs will never be able to pull hate as long as the tanks stay at least 1enmity above the cap. That would be a broken system because once a PLD is beyond the cap, DDs could zerg as they please without fear of stealing hate, mages can drop high enmity nukes or spam cures with reckless abandon. SE would counter this probably with frequent hate-reset TP moves or instant-death attacks.
One way to fix this is to vastly increase mob's single target attacks but buff the DEF/ATT formula such that PLDs take reduced damage versus these huge attacks, but a WAR or DRK get rocked for huge damage if they pull hate. It would usher in careful DDing, bringing THFs, subbing /NIN, and even evasion tanking because perhaps even with an Ochain PLD, perhaps the mob hits too hard that you'd need an Evasion tank, with Utsusemi, Blind and Accuracy Down attacks.
I like your idea to buff the DEF formula and give Paladins a trait to take less damage from huge attacks. Because as things are now: stacking -mdt/-pdt/-damage is really the only significant way to defend yourself against a lot of the damage on this game through gear.
I would prefer that wearing heavy armor with high defenses would accomplish the same effect. This would also keep the parties more balanced and aid with the enmity issues as there would no longer be a need for the designated tank in the group to gimp themselves offensively with loads of mitigation gear.
Thfs don't use evasion anymore. Unless the mob is so weak everything it does tickles, there isn't enough evasion gear in the game to make it viable just like with capping defense. Even then just too many moves are unavoidable. I have a pdt set and an mdt set. It's what I use to tank in skirmish, delve, and incursion.
The enmity problem is a lot worst than just having DDs back off now and then so they don't get hate. Sure they are doing way more damage than before ilvl, but the high damage has to be done because the mobs have higher hp, and people would time out otherwise. The problem is enmity hasn't scaled right with ilvl. Lots of things haven't scaled right with ilvl. I would say no amount of strategy can fix that, but rngs can fight without generating any enmity, so there is at least one. It's not insane to expect some adjustment to how enmity works when it's not working right.
Thfs don't use evasion anymore. Unless the mob is so weak everything it does tickles, there isn't enough evasion gear in the game to make it viable just like with capping defense. Even then just too many moves are unavoidable. I have a pdt set and an mdt set. It's what I use to tank in skirmish, delve, and incursion.
The enmity problem is a lot worst than just having DDs back off now and then so they don't get hate. Sure they are doing way more damage than before ilvl, but the high damage has to be done because the mobs have higher hp, and people would time out otherwise. The problem is enmity hasn't scaled right with ilvl. Lots of things haven't scaled right with ilvl. I would say no amount of strategy can fix that, but rngs can fight without generating any enmity, so there is at least one. It's not insane to expect some adjustment to how enmity works when it's not working right.
I'm no expert on thieves: but I've seen them last out against some extremely hard hitting monsters using shadows and what I assumed to be their high evasion. Now I'll admit the thief was one-shotted once he got hit - so mitigation is still probably wise to have. But clearly something they have is capable of providing a good alternative. Because I saw one the other day going toe to toe with a notorious monster that was nailing me for 600+ damage with its regular hits in full -pdt gear.
But anyway: this is neither here nor there. If you say evade is no longer good I have no appetite to argue with you about. You actually play a thief so are in a better position to say.
Back on point: what you see as a problem with the enmity system I see more as a problem with party balance. I believe the system itself works well. The problem occurs on higher level fights when the designated tank is compelled to wear mitigation gear to survive and other players do not - giving them a distinct advantage in terms of offense that the provided hate tools can't overcome.
Nothing you have suggested has been insane. I just think you are aiming your criticisms in the wrong area is all. Because it's not the system itself that is flawed as I see it. It's the imbalances brought about due to tanking gear vs damaging gear. And this issue has been present on this game for many years now - long before the ilvl was scaled.
PlumbGame
03-19-2015, 05:19 AM
It is the system that is flawed. The issue has not been present for years, in the 75 days on MOST content, a tank with TAs for example would never lose threat. Sure, it happened, but not like it does today. It was much more enjoyable for both side, and is not a tanking gear vs damaging gear problem. I assume you keep missing the issue presented in this thread of capped threat?
I'm no expert on thieves: but I've seen them last out against some extremely hard hitting monsters using shadows and what I assumed to be their high evasion. Now I'll admit the thief was one-shotted once he got hit - so mitigation is still probably wise to have. But clearly something they have is capable of providing a good alternative. Because I saw one the other day going toe to toe with a notorious monster that was nailing me for 600+ damage with its regular hits in full -pdt gear.
But anyway: this is neither here nor there. If you say evade is no longer good I have no appetite to argue with you about. You actually play a thief so are in a better position to say.
Back on point: what you see as a problem with the enmity system I see more as a problem with party balance. I believe the system itself works well. The problem occurs on higher level fights when the designated tank is compelled to wear mitigation gear to survive and other players do not - giving them a distinct advantage in terms of offense that the provided hate tools can't overcome.
Nothing you have suggested has been insane. I just think you are aiming your criticisms in the wrong area is all. Because it's not the system itself that is flawed as I see it. It's the imbalances brought about due to tanking gear vs damaging gear. And this issue has been present on this game for many years now - long before the ilvl was scaled.
Yorium armor from Alluvion skrimish Yorcia. With it war, drk, and pld can all have a tp set with plenty of offense and damage mitigation. Weapon skill sets would be better made from acro though, unless the weaponskill in question is highly vit based.
Hate still builds too fast, and very few jobs have abilities that can deal with it. Thf is supposed to be able to control hate, but those abilities fall flat. TA only helps the tank cap hate faster, where as the hate stealing moves are only good for really bad times when the choices are the whm dying or the thf taking their place. Normally the latter only happens when dealing with hate reset moves that target the DDs.
Alhanelem
03-19-2015, 05:51 AM
Through the use of a strategy they can. That was my point. So I think you misunderstood my post.
If all a tank had to do was walk into a fight and spam flash/provoke/cure and never lose hate it would prevent the group from having to implement any kind of strategy to control hate. This is the way it is on other games. I prefer the way it is on this game - where hate is an actual factor that must be considered and strategized around.
Actually this isn't the way it is in most other games. Usually as long as the tank is playing his job properly, other jobs won't pull hate against him. The other party members dont need a "strategy" to avoid overtaking the tank in hate, and any blame for loss of hate control falls squarely on the tank. DPS roles shouldn't have to restrain their DPS except as part of a monster's ability or mechanic that requires them to.
It is the system that is flawed. The issue has not been present for years, in the 75 days on MOST content, a tank with TAs for example would never lose threat. Sure, it happened, but not like it does today. It was much more enjoyable for both side, and is not a tanking gear vs damaging gear problem. I assume you keep missing the issue presented in this thread of capped threat?
This issue has been present for years though. I've read these same exact criticisms about the enmity system for as long as I can remember.
The likely reason it seems more prevalent now is because powerful gear just got released. As a result: damage dealers are doing more damage than ever: thus widening the offense gap between players wearing damage gear vs players wearing mitigation gear.
I understand that you think that the issue is capped threat. But I really don't think raising that would fix the problem you are describing.
The enmity system itself works well: and you can demonstrate that yourself by slapping your paladin into a competitive damage dealing set. Damage dealers won't end up tanking with auto attacks then - and combat will function more appropriately.
Yorium armor from Alluvion skrimish Yorcia. With it war, drk, and pld can all have a tp set with plenty of offense and damage mitigation. Weapon skill sets would be better made from acro though, unless the weaponskill in question is highly vit based.
Hate still builds too fast, and very few jobs have abilities that can deal with it. Thf is supposed to be able to control hate, but those abilities fall flat. TA only helps the tank cap hate faster, where as the hate stealing moves are only good for really bad times when the choices are the whm dying or the thf taking their place. Normally the latter only happens when dealing with hate reset moves that target the DDs.
Yorium gauntlets have -2% PDT on them. That is the only piece that has any innate mitigation on them - and it's physical not overall damage. So to describe the Yorium set has having plenty of damage mitigation is inaccurate in my opinion.
The most -damage I have seen through duskslit augments is -3%. These stones are expensive and not easy to farm. Even if a Paladin has already managed to get ahold of enough of these stones to fully augment the entire Yorium set with mitigation it would still only offer -15% damage taken, -17% if it's physical . That's not very good and you will likely die as a tank if that's all you have when fighting higher level notorious monsters. Not to mention this would also require the tank to give up the nice stat boosts (STR + DEX) that is possible on the armor.
Hate may or may not build too fast. But what I am trying to describe to you is that wouldn't be a real problem nor would the enmity caps if the offensive gap between the designated tank (the player wearing mitigation gear) and the players wearing damaging gear wasn't so great. That's what causes enmity to get out of control and renders the tank's hate tools (flash/provoke etc.) ineffective.
Actually this isn't the way it is in most other games. Usually as long as the tank is playing his job properly, other jobs won't pull hate against him. The other party members dont need a "strategy" to avoid overtaking the tank in hate, and any blame for loss of hate control falls squarely on the tank. DPS roles shouldn't have to restrain their DPS except as part of a monster's ability or mechanic that requires them to.
I think you misunderstood my post.
That is what I was saying: that on most other games the tank simply spams some optimized rotation and keeps hate through-out the fight. It's rare for another party member to actually get hit - and when they do it's thought to be the tank's fault and not part of the expected gameplay.
Where we fundamentally disagree is you like this approach and I don't. I find this kind of combat shallow and prefer it when there are enmity caps or a similar mechanic in place that causes the enemies to mix it up between party members. It improves the gameplay and makes combat more interesting.
In other words: I like that the boss will turn and attack the player who just busted off a huge skill chain.
PlumbGame
03-19-2015, 08:08 PM
I think you misunderstood my post.
That is what I was saying: that on most other games the tank simply spams some optimized rotation and keeps hate through-out the fight. It's rare for another party member to actually get hit - and when they do it's thought to be the tank's fault and not part of the expected gameplay.
Where we fundamentally disagree is you like this approach and I don't. I find this kind of combat shallow and prefer it when there are enmity caps or a similar mechanic in place that causes the enemies to mix it up between party members. It improves the gameplay and makes combat more interesting.
I think you are missing the point. IN THIS GAME tanks simply spams some optimized rotation, then hits a caps, that EVERY DD hits with simplicity also, preventing a tank from being............ a tank, and considering that PLD was not designed for damage, it should be able to................ tank. It does not make the combat more interesting, it does not make the combat more fun. Carrying damage taken gear to take up the already limited inventory space isn't "interesting" or "improving" on the gameplay, or not dpsing for extended periods of time to lose enmity just to get it back on a few round of auto-attacks of a WS is not interesting or improving, it's actually a lazy way for SE to ignore the tanking problem. What would be interesting is DDs being able to perform MAX damage and a tank being able to compete to hold threat.
It would also play a more strategic roll in hate control because without a capped threat people would have potential to do more max dmg making them more inclined to make sure the tank has the threat.
I think you are missing the point. IN THIS GAME tanks simply spams some optimized rotation, then hits a caps, that EVERY DD hits with simplicity also, preventing a tank from being............ a tank, and considering that PLD was not designed for damage, it should be able to................ tank. It does not make the combat more interesting, it does not make the combat more fun. Carrying damage taken gear to take up the already limited inventory space isn't "interesting" or "improving" on the gameplay, or not dpsing for extended periods of time to lose enmity just to get it back on a few round of auto-attacks of a WS is not interesting or improving, it's actually a lazy way for SE to ignore the tanking problem. What would be interesting is DDs being able to perform MAX damage and a tank being able to compete to hold threat.
It would also play a more strategic roll in hate control because without a capped threat people would have potential to do more max dmg making them more inclined to make sure the tank has the threat.
I just disagree with your description of how the enmity system works on this game.
When the party is balanced and well played - it is possible for the tank to control hate. The enmity system on this game does not prevent a tank from being utilized.
Paladins were designed to do damage. They have an A+ in sword, weapon skills etc. They just weren't intended to do as much damage as some of the other jobs.
Where we agree is I don't really think having to wear -damage gear brings anything of value to this game. I would prefer they just make Defense the new mitigation and stop forcing tanks to gimp their offense and enmity by having to put it on. This is especially the case since other jobs are so resistant to wearing it themselves. It also leads to a lot of problems - like the one this thread is talking about.
Selindrile
03-19-2015, 08:51 PM
When the party is using rangers that are well played - it is possible for the rangers to control hate. The enmity system on this game does not prevent a tank from being utilized when all the dds are rangers.
I fixed this for you.
PlumbGame
03-19-2015, 10:11 PM
I just disagree with your description of how the enmity system works on this game.
When the party is balanced and well played - it is possible for the tank to control hate. The enmity system on this game does not prevent a tank from being utilized.
Paladins were designed to do damage. They have an A+ in sword, weapon skills etc. They just weren't intended to do as much damage as some of the other jobs.
Where we agree is I don't really think having to wear -damage gear brings anything of value to this game. I would prefer they just make Defense the new mitigation and stop forcing tanks to gimp their offense and enmity by having to put it on. This is especially the case since other jobs are so resistant to wearing it themselves. It also leads to a lot of problems - like the one this thread is talking about.
Sadly it doesn't matter that you disagree with my description of how enmity works. It is how it works.
Sadly it doesn't matter that you disagree with my description of how enmity works. It is how it works.
Not for me it isn't.
So does the game then have two separate enmity systems? One for you and one for me? It must: because that is the only way I can explain it.
I fixed this for you.
Cute. But you didn't fix it :)
You do not need rangers to utilize tanks in this game.
Alhanelem
03-20-2015, 01:15 AM
I think you misunderstood my post.
That is what I was saying: that on most other games the tank simply spams some optimized rotation and keeps hate through-out the fight. It's rare for another party member to actually get hit - and when they do it's thought to be the tank's fault and not part of the expected gameplay.
Where we fundamentally disagree is you like this approach and I don't. I find this kind of combat shallow and prefer it when there are enmity caps or a similar mechanic in place that causes the enemies to mix it up between party members. It improves the gameplay and makes combat more interesting.
In other words: I like that the boss will turn and attack the player who just busted off a huge skill chain.The approach is good because it rewards people for doing their job to the best of their capability, and doesn't punish DDs for doing so. It does NOT mean that other party members never get hit, because these games generally have a lot more area attacks than XI which everyone has to deal with, not just the tank(s). You make it sound a lot simpler than it actually is. Often the mechanics can make it difficult for the tank to do their job right which does make it hard on hate control. There's also usually still hate resets and some games have mechanics where mobs have a special capability to ignore the hate list and go after a different target.
The only difference here is that each role is responsible for doing its own role and not anyone else's. It isn't fun as a DD to have to hold back, especially in this game where the reason is because of an arbitrary limitation (the hate cap), and especially an arbitrary limitation that wasn't a problem until a few years ago. The game was a lot better in terms of battle tactics back several years ago when the hate cap wasn't nearly as much of an issue and as long as you let the tank get some hate before engaging you were fine. Tanks can't really do their job very well without DPS constantly standing idle because of the hate cap. In the early years we didn't have to do that (much).
Right now, DDs may as well do as much damage as possible purely due to that flaw- they're going to make the mob spin even if they aren't doing max DPS because they simply WILL hit the hate cap unless they literally do nothing at all. That's not the tank's fault, because the tank's hate is at maximum possible.
The approach is good because it rewards people for doing their job to the best of their capability, and doesn't punish DDs for doing so. It does NOT mean that other party members never get hit, because these games generally have a lot more area attacks than XI which everyone has to deal with, not just the tank(s). You make it sound a lot simpler than it actually is. Often the mechanics can make it difficult for the tank to do their job right which does make it hard on hate control. There's also usually still hate resets and some games have mechanics where mobs have a special capability to ignore the hate list and go after a different target.
The only difference here is that each role is responsible for doing its own role and not anyone else's. It isn't fun as a DD to have to hold back, especially in this game where the reason is because of an arbitrary limitation (the hate cap), and especially an arbitrary limitation that wasn't a problem until a few years ago.
I don't because such a feature may as well not exist if doing so will usually kill you. If the optimal strategy is to generally avoid performing optimally, that just doesn't make sense to me. The game was a lot better in terms of battle tactics back several years ago when the hate cap wasn't nearly as much of an issue and as long as you let the tank get some hate before engaging you were fine.
As I said - we just have a fundamental disagreement here about what constitutes fun gameplay.
You seem to prefer the wow/FF 14 approach. I prefer the system on this game where hate is less predictable and damage dealers have to be on their guard and respect what they are attacking because it might turn around and attack them back.
We'll just have to agree to disagree about this.
bazookatooth
03-20-2015, 04:21 AM
Just nerf all forms of damage back to 75 levels. Problem solved ;P
PlumbGame
03-20-2015, 04:32 AM
Not for me it isn't.
So does the game then have two separate enmity systems? One for you and one for me? It must: because that is the only way I can explain it.
There has been much testing on enmity since..... forever. I'll take the results of the tests over random guy A who plays PLD and thinks PLD shouldn't tank and that his fun and interacting gameplay is revolved around DDs tanking.
Alhanelem
03-20-2015, 07:58 AM
You seem to prefer the wow/FF 14 approach. I prefer the system on this game where hate is less predictable and damage dealers have to be on their guard and respect what they are attacking because it might turn around and attack them back.Unpredictably dying isn't much fun. Everything should always go smoothly if everyone in the party is skilled, knows what they're doing, and knows how a given encounter works. You might like dying to RNG(randomness, not Ranger), but most people don't. In FFXIV, if I die I know it's because I screwed up, in most cases. You're only punished for making mistakes, not for doing your job to the best of your ability.
But totally outside of this, where I won't agree to disagree because it's a bad system, the current system is itself broken because it doesn't work correctly due to not being adjusted for increasing power elvels of all jobs as we went up to 99 and ilvl territory. We are still working with a system based around being level 75 that has not been updated in any way since. At 75, you only pulled hate if the tank was performing badly or you landed an unusually powerful attack. Now, anyone can pull hate with anything - Cures, buffs, damage, whatever you can think of - because anyone can hit the hate cap WITHOUT EVEN TRYING. Tell me with a straight face that isn't broken. You don't even have to pull off a big skillchain or do something really threatening. You will pull hate just from performing your job at an ordinary level doing nothing remarkable.
I love XI, still do, but this has been one of the most broken aspects of the game for years. You don't even know who to blame when you die half the time because even the most skilled player tanking can't keep the mob off you. If the mob spins like a top no matter what people do, it's just a big game of russian roulette. Why even have a tank if they can't tank?
Selindrile
03-21-2015, 12:03 AM
Why even have a tank if they can't tank?
Because they can if the only DDs you use are careful rangers, sheesh!
In all seriousness though, the enmity system is more than a little out of date, multiply the current cap by say, 5000, make provoke grant you either it's current amount of enmity if you are on the top of the enmity list, or that, plus the the difference in enmity between you and the next highest member on the hate list.
Yes, that would make tanking "easier" (and not the impossibility it is now, outside of rangers) but it's still very possible to out aggro your tank very quickly even with that system, the buff to provoke would be there primarily so that if you ever had a tank die, or another had to take over, or recover after death, it wouldn't be impossible for them to do so. (with such a high enmity cap)
Because they can if the only DDs you use are careful rangers, sheesh!
In all seriousness though, the enmity system is more than a little out of date, multiply the current cap by say, 5000, make provoke grant you either it's current amount of enmity if you are on the top of the enmity list, or that, plus the the difference in enmity between you and the next highest member on the hate list.
Yes, that would make tanking "easier" (and not the impossibility it is now, outside of rangers) but it's still very possible to out aggro your tank very quickly even with that system, the buff to provoke would be there primarily so that if you ever had a tank die, or another had to take over, or recover after death, it wouldn't be impossible for them to do so. (with such a high enmity cap)
Indeed doing risky things can back fire fast. I remember the first time I did AA Hume. I saw him pop mighty strikes in the first 10 seconds of the fight and thought to myself that would be fun to larceny. AA Hume was not amused, and I got a 5 minute time out.
There has been much testing on enmity since..... forever. I'll take the results of the tests over random guy A who plays PLD and thinks PLD shouldn't tank and that his fun and interacting gameplay is revolved around DDs tanking.
This is why I'm always hesitant to get involved in this enmity debate. It always devolves into comments like this.
I never said DD's should tank. I do however like it that they pull threat when they do a lot of damage - and I would like to keep it that way. I never said Paladins shouldn't tank. But I don't want them to always have the threat while everyone else just mindlessly spams their most damaging rotations. I had enough of that gameplay on WoW.
So I like the way the enmity system on this game works. I understand that you don't. We just disagree.
Unpredictably dying isn't much fun. Everything should always go smoothly if everyone in the party is skilled, knows what they're doing, and knows how a given encounter works. You might like dying to RNG(randomness, not Ranger), but most people don't. In FFXIV, if I die I know it's because I screwed up, in most cases. You're only punished for making mistakes, not for doing your job to the best of your ability.
But totally outside of this, where I won't agree to disagree because it's a bad system, the current system is itself broken because it doesn't work correctly due to not being adjusted for increasing power elvels of all jobs as we went up to 99 and ilvl territory. We are still working with a system based around being level 75 that has not been updated in any way since. At 75, you only pulled hate if the tank was performing badly or you landed an unusually powerful attack. Now, anyone can pull hate with anything - Cures, buffs, damage, whatever you can think of - because anyone can hit the hate cap WITHOUT EVEN TRYING. Tell me with a straight face that isn't broken. You don't even have to pull off a big skillchain or do something really threatening. You will pull hate just from performing your job at an ordinary level doing nothing remarkable.
I love XI, still do, but this has been one of the most broken aspects of the game for years. You don't even know who to blame when you die half the time because even the most skilled player tanking can't keep the mob off you. If the mob spins like a top no matter what people do, it's just a big game of russian roulette. Why even have a tank if they can't tank?
Tanks can tank. They just can't tank if they are wearing full mitigation gear with a gimped offense while all the other melee in the group are decked out in their most powerful DD gear. That's the problem. It creates a party imbalance that prevents the tank from being able to require threat.
Enmity caps aren't the problem and raising them wouldn't stop what you are referring to from happening. It might just a little longer for it to happen is all.
PlumbGame
03-22-2015, 11:09 AM
Not repeating myself again. There is just so many times you can repeat yourself to a wall before you realize that the wall can't hear you and won't change.
bazookatooth
03-22-2015, 11:56 AM
Tanks can tank. They just can't tank if they are wearing full mitigation gear with a gimped offense while all the other melee in the group are decked out in their most powerful DD gear. That's the problem. It creates a party imbalance that prevents the tank from being able to require threat.
Enmity caps aren't the problem and raising them wouldn't stop what you are referring to from happening. It might just a little longer for it to happen is all.
Paladins also can't tank if they take off full mitigation gear and gimp their defense. They just can't tank. The only way they can tank is if other people don't do much damage. Which means that a paladin doing their job requires a concerted effort by all other front line jobs to not do their job.
You don't get to call your self a good tank if your best skill is convincing people not to do damage. The game needs higher emnity caps and better emnity mitigation abilities. Doing nothing is not hate control. It's doing nothing.
There are ways for tanks to gain hate without taking crazy damage and there are ways for DDS to deal max damage without surpassing the tank's emnity. They just don't exist in FFXI.
The best method would be to give DDs methods of shedding emnity without gimping their damage output. That way instead of doing nothing in order to keep hate on the tank, they would do.... something to keep hate on the tank.
The game needs higher emnity caps and better emnity mitigation abilities.
I don't think the cap should be increased. I think the formula for enmity generated by damage needs to be adjusted for higher level combat. The values for stored values can only go so high, and I think the devs said something about it only being able to store numbers 4 times what it is now.
Paladins also can't tank if they take off full mitigation gear and gimp their defense. They just can't tank. The only way they can tank is if other people don't do much damage. Which means that a paladin doing their job requires a concerted effort by all other front line jobs to not do their job.
You don't get to call your self a good tank if your best skill is convincing people not to do damage. The game needs higher emnity caps and better emnity mitigation abilities. Doing nothing is not hate control. It's doing nothing.
There are ways for tanks to gain hate without taking crazy damage and there are ways for DDS to deal max damage without surpassing the tank's emnity. They just don't exist in FFXI.
The best method would be to give DDs methods of shedding emnity without gimping their damage output. That way instead of doing nothing in order to keep hate on the tank, they would do.... something to keep hate on the tank.
I agree with you there are many fights that require full mitigation gear to tank. I've already said that if you browse up and read my posts. Not all of them. But there are many out there that do: and these are the fights that the Paladin is going to have difficulty tanking. Especially if the other members in the group do not follow suit and wear mitigation gear themselves. I've said this dozens of times. And that is the real problem here.
I've never advocated for anyone to do nothing or for tanks to try and convince people not to do damage. The only suggestion I have put out there is for other front line DD jobs to wear mitigation gear as well as the tank on difficult fights (and I mean during the whole fight, not just when the monster is looking at them). That would help alleviate the enmity problems. But of course they will never do that: because too many people out there see it as their sole responsibility to do MAXIMUM DAMAGE. Who cares if it gets them killed or makes it super difficult on the tank - because if it does it's the game's fault, the tank's fault.... or the enmity system is just broken.
I disagree with you on the best method to fix this issue. Raising enmity caps would not fix anything. Allowing front line DDs to easily shed enmity while doing max damage would make combat too static. However: if they were to buff defense and make that the new mitigation that is one way this problem could be fixed. Because in truth: all front line jobs benefit from a healthy amount of mitigation on this game to help them survive difficult fights. Not just the tank.
But that's not the way most people will play it. Players are just too stuck in their ways from playing other games and believe only the tank needs to worry about defense and everyone else should just be able to go crazy without any regard for their own safety. So as I say: they should just ditch the whole mitigation gear concept because all it does is make a bad situation even worse and further disadvantages the designated tank.
I don't think the cap should be increased. I think the formula for enmity generated by damage needs to be adjusted for higher level combat. The values for stored values can only go so high, and I think the devs said something about it only being able to store numbers 4 times what it is now.
This isn't a bad idea. Lowering the amount of enmity generated by damage on higher level fights would help with this problem. But it's not a consistent solution and would prefer a fix that didn't have to be singularly applied.
Not repeating myself again. There is just so many times you can repeat yourself to a wall before you realize that the wall can't hear you and won't change.
I feel the same way so don't worry. :)
Kawar
03-22-2015, 11:57 PM
or introduce threat meter for pld and the group party to see.now this is an idea i wish we had for years really. It would make my job as pld a little easier. not much but a little.
This isn't a bad idea. Lowering the amount of enmity generated by damage on higher level fights would help with this problem. But it's not a consistent solution and would prefer a fix that didn't have to be singularly applied.
It's already done like that for levels 50-99. https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Enmity#Enmity_from_Damage_Dealt
If it is done for levels 99+ it isn't done drastically enough considering how fast damage damage shoots up for levels above 99.
Also I'm going to try and explain this simply and clearly so you can understand. The problem is not that other jobs are hitting enmity cap before pld. The problem is that everyone is hitting the cap too easily. This garbage you are spouting about damage mitigation gear being the problem is not the problem. I have no trouble at all hitting enmity cap in my damage mitigation gear. Iuitl +1 5/5, twilight torque, patricius ring, shadow ring, and shadow mantle. I'm trying to get a defending ring to replace the shadow one, but what can you do. WoE event is going on might even snag up a flume belt. But even if I did have the best in slot for damage taken for thf I would still have no trouble with capping enmity. And once I have hate there is no way to lose it other than to die, because in order to shed cumulative enmity back to zero you have to lose more than 5 times your max hp in damage, or lose 400 shadows, and even then you still have 10000 time volatile enmity.
Mookies75
03-23-2015, 02:01 AM
To the people saying locking hate to one char would make the game too easy because DD don't have to worry about threat and taking damage...
Do you even play this game in it's current state? Boss AoE, Boss AoE everywhereeeeeeeeeeeee... Boss AoE all the things, all the people, all the tarus, 24/7.
I'd rather we be given the ability to bring different party setups than have to be a relic RNG or SAM or MNK or some other similar gimmick to go somewhere. I'm not saying threat should be locked down. But if a tank is actively trying to keep hate, he shouldn't have it ripped off of him by someone who can pull good numbers.
Alhanelem
03-23-2015, 02:35 PM
Tanks can tank.No they can't. Offense is irrelevant. Tanks can't tank when everyone can cap their hate and the only way to control it is to either die or nearly die or stand around and do nothing (for some unknown period of time, because the only way to accurately gauge your enmity is to have a scholar in the party). Tanks can cap their hate, so this issue has nothing to do with tanks doing enough damage or flashing or provoking or doing whatever to get hate enough.
Enmity caps aren't the problem and raising them wouldn't stop what you are referring to from happening.Enmity cap is PART of the problem, not the whole problem. There really shouldn't be a (hard) cap at all, and the enmity generation system should be designed such that the only cap is what is maximially obtianable by your actions (and enmity falloff would put an effective, rather than hard, limit on it- have enmity loss increase as hate gets higher). In such a system, only an unusually threatening action (e.g. a huge hit or skillchain) would swing the monster unless the tank is undergeared and/or doing a poor job, which is how it should be. Tanks will keep hate by consistently performing threatening actions, and having appropriate gear to mitigate their enmity loss (thereby attaining a higher enmity level). The only thing DDs need to do to avoid taking hate is to time their biggest actions to coincide with a tank performing a large enmity gain.
In this system, hate control is determined primarily by the skill and gear of the tank and secondarily by DPS jobs coordnating their attacks to coincide with the tank's actions, rather than having to stop entirely or taking a ton of damage.
Roja323
03-23-2015, 07:22 PM
in a suprise twist.
emnity cap is increasing
enmity from damage is decreasing
PlumbGame
03-24-2015, 12:15 AM
Good to the changes!
Alhanelem
03-24-2015, 01:09 AM
Tah-dah!!!
This garbage you are spouting about damage mitigation gear being the problem is not the problem..
It's not garbage.
That is the problem. The enmity caps weren't the problem. Or at least no the main problem.
To the people saying locking hate to one char would make the game too easy because DD don't have to worry about threat and taking damage...
Do you even play this game in it's current state? Boss AoE, Boss AoE everywhereeeeeeeeeeeee... Boss AoE all the things, all the people, all the tarus, 24/7.
I'd rather we be given the ability to bring different party setups than have to be a relic RNG or SAM or MNK or some other similar gimmick to go somewhere. I'm not saying threat should be locked down. But if a tank is actively trying to keep hate, he shouldn't have it ripped off of him by someone who can pull good numbers.
Not all bosses have AoE. Those who do - ranged players can usually stand outside of them. So the people suggesting that locking hate behind one character would make this game (I wouldn't use the word easy - I would use the world dull) still have a point.
Instead of trying to turn this game into WoW or Final Fantasy 14 I would prefer to keep this game's enmity systems unique. That's why I play this game instead of other ones after all. Because it's different. I like that players get retaliated against when they pull good numbers.
in a suprise twist.
emnity cap is increasing
enmity from damage is decreasing
Enmity from damage decreasing will help.
Will it help enough to make tanks wearing full mitigation gear compete for enmity against those wearing full damage gear? We'll see. I hope it does.
Enmity cap is PART of the problem, not the whole problem. .
Fine.
Let me say they are not the main problem then. They may contribute to some small and lesser degree. Which is why if you saw them just raise the enmity caps without addressing the enmity gap between offensive and defensive players nothing would change and the same problem would persist. Regardless that you think offense is irrelevant: I am telling you it isn't. Because the enmity generated from offense was the reason tanks wearing mitigation gear could not compete for threat.
Put a Paladin in full damage gear on a fight where mitigation is not necessary and he or she will tank just fine so long as the other party members do not play recklessly. It would not matter if the entire group was at the dreaded enmity cap or not. You can go test that out for yourself with a Paladin friend of yours if you do not believe me.
The problem is and has been mitigation gear and how it gimps the tank's offense and renders them impotent offensively when compared to others. This is also why this is only a real issue on fights where mitigation gear is a factor. I can tank lower tier fights all day long without any issue with competent damage dealers so long as I do not have to turn my Paladin into a wet noodle with tons of -damage crap. If enmity caps were truly the cause: then that would not be the case.
To put it simply: characters geared to do damage create way more enmity than characters geared to mitigate damage. This change may help fix that.
Roja323
03-25-2015, 03:18 AM
Honestly the biggest issue is the cap is low, DD reach it quickly, and then have no way to get rid of it.
Lowering enmity from damage will only delay the same outcome. Eventually you will get to a point where everyone is capped, and then we are at the same place as before.
We either need a way for tanks to absorb enmity from the party
Enmity from damage to be insanely low
Or more dd need a way to constantly douse their enmity,
Thf have trick attack (have it transfer % of current enmity as well)
rng has decoy shot (decrease reuse 3 min so it can be kept up and make current enmity decay faster)
drk - Add a huge -enmity affect to dread spikes
mnk - Give monks feign death (plays dead for 1-2 seconds and drops x % of enmity, 60s reuse)
drg has high jump (drops 50% enmity every 120 seconds-> lower to 30s reuse)
Pup can ventriloquy
The abilities are there, they just need to be tweaked to make more sense in modern combat. Pup is the only that can really control their hate 100%. And most people wont even bring one and their combined dmg with master + pet is > mnk. Honestly the only DD that shouldn't be able to lower their enmity is SAM, if they are gonna be king of dd they should have no way to lower their enmity.
Honestly the biggest issue is the cap is low, DD reach it quickly, and then have no way to get rid of it.
Lowering enmity from damage will only delay the same outcome. Eventually you will get to a point where everyone is capped, and then we are at the same place as before.
We either need a way for tanks to absorb enmity from the party
Enmity from damage to be insanely low
Or more dd need a way to constantly douse their enmity,
Thf have trick attack (have it transfer % of current enmity as well)
rng has decoy shot (decrease reuse 3 min so it can be kept up and make current enmity decay faster)
drk - Add a huge -enmity affect to dread spikes
mnk - Give monks feign death (plays dead for 1-2 seconds and drops x % of enmity, 60s reuse)
drg has high jump (drops 50% enmity every 120 seconds-> lower to 30s reuse)
Pup can ventriloquy
The abilities are there, they just need to be tweaked to make more sense in modern combat. Pup is the only that can really control their hate 100%. And most people wont even bring one and their combined dmg with master + pet is > mnk. Honestly the only DD that shouldn't be able to lower their enmity is SAM, if they are gonna be king of dd they should have no way to lower their enmity.
It depends what your goal is.
It is not SE's intent that only the tank should ever have threat. If it were: they would simply give the Paladin a much higher enmity cap then everyone else.
Enmity caps are there to ensure other players can draw hate as well. Raising them will not stop this from happening either so long as they are uniform across the party. It just means it might happen a little later than usual. So I got no issues with them raising the enmity caps so long as it's done for everyone on an equal basis. Hate needs to be shared through-out the group - else strategy suffers as a result because there would be no purpose to concern yourself with anything else other than offense making for a shallow combat system. I don't find the AoE argument to be a convincing counter to this point of view either.
But there is a legitimate problem here where players geared to mitigate damage (usually tanks) simply cannot compete for threat. It's impossible - and as others have pointed out: what point is there to being a tank if they cannot tank? So something did need to happen on that score.
I would have preferred they just scrap the whole concept of mitigation gear entirely. But it's possible reducing the enmity caused from damage will do the trick. We'll see.
But yeah: if are wanting to be able to go all out on damage without having to worry about the boss turning around to kill you these changes probably won't do it for you. And in my opinion: that's a good thing.
PlumbGame
03-25-2015, 04:39 AM
It's not garbage.
That is the problem. The enmity caps weren't the problem. Or at least no the main problem.
It seems you are the only one around here..... or anywhere that feels this way.
It seems you are the only one around here..... or anywhere that feels this way.
As I said Plumb, I can go into a lower tier fight with my damage gear on and tank just fine so long as DD's play smart. Enmity caps still exist on lower tier fights.
The issue of tanks being unable to tank doesn't happen unless they have to equip a lot of mitigation gear which hampers their offense to such a degree they cannot compete for enmity. In short: offense generates too much enmity for players geared defensively to match.
I'm not against raising the enmity caps. Perhaps they were too low. But they just aren't the cause for tanks being unable to tank. SE seems to recognize this which is why are lowering the enmity caused by damage too instead of just raising the enmity caps.
I'm not against raising the enmity caps. Perhaps they were too low. But they just are not the cause for tanks being unable to tank.
The low enmity caps are exactly the reason that tanks cannot tank.
At any rate, offensively VS defensively blah blah doesnt really have much to do with it either. In the short term, tank abilities and WS don't have enough enmity generation keep up with the massive super powers that have been given to DD's over the years. In the (not so)long term, everyone hits the cap.
Whether or not a tank can DD offensively vs other DDs' should not really be a major part of the "keeping enmity" equation. But none of that matters at all if you are all hitting the cap and mobs are spinning like a top.
When it doesn't matter at all how *good* a tank is, he can't keep hate off of competant DD's, sh*t is broken. A *good* tank should be able to keep hate off *Good* DD's all the time without them having to hold back. I mean the gear/skill check should be there so that bad tanks fail and groups die, but I see no reason why this should not be the case.
The low enmity caps are exactly the reason that tanks cannot tank.
.
No they aren't. Else I would not be able to tank any of the lower tier fights either - as enmity caps are just as low in those as they are in the higher level fights.. Yet I do. You and others keep refusing to accept that the enmity gap brought about by offensive imbalances is a problem.
I almost wish that SE would only raise the enmity caps and keep the enmity generated by damage the same so you could witness it for yourself and see that the exact same problem would end up happening.
Whether or not a tank can DD offensively vs other DDs' should not really be a major part of the "keeping enmity" equation. .
It might shouldn't be but it is. I agree with you that a defensively geared Paladin should be able to compete for enmity with an offensive geared DD. But they can't. And that's the problem.
No they aren't. .
Yes they are. You are wrong. Offensive imbalances are also not the issue. You are wrong about that too.
Yes they are. You are wrong. Offensive imbalances are also not the issue. You are wrong about that too.
No they aren't. You are wrong. Offensive imbalances are an issue. Which is why SE is lowering the amount of enmity generated by damage to help mediate the problem. You are wrong about that too.
:)
Offensive imbalances are an issue. Which is why SE is lowering the amount of enmity generated by damage to help mediate the problem.
Again, the issue is not offensive imbalance. There should be no such offensive balance between DD's and tanks. The issue is a tank job vs DD enmity generation imbalance, which should have very little (if anything) to do with PLD offense, and has already been covered.
At any rate, even addressing that imbalance perfectly would do nothing at all without an enmity cap raise (the major issue). And I have very serious doubts that they raised it enough to have a meaningful impact on the current situation.
For example, fixing which of these two would cure the situation faster? Balancing PLD vs DD enmity generation? Or vastly raising the enmity cap?
I'll give youa hint: One allows tanks to tank immediately with no further changes, and the other doesn't.
Again, the issue is not offensive imbalance. There should be no such offensive balance between DD's and tanks. The issue is a tank job vs DD enmity generation imbalance, which should have very little (if anything) to do with PLD offense, and has already been covered.
At any rate, even addressing that imbalance perfectly would do nothing at all without an enmity cap raise (the major issue). And I have very serious doubts that they raised it enough to have a meaningful impact on the current situation.
For example, fixing which of these two would cure the situation faster? Balancing PLD vs DD enmity generation? Or vastly raising the enmity cap?
I'll give youa hint: One allows tanks to tank immediately with no further changes, and the other doesn't.
We have different ideas as to what being a tank is.
If your notion of being a tank is to always have threat then yes - enmity caps are probably your biggest obstacle.
My point of view is that the designated tank should look only to be an effective manager of threat - not hoard it indefinitely. Enmity caps do not prevent tanks from accomplishing this. What does: is when they have to dump all of their offense for mitigation purposes rendering them noncompetitive at generating threat.
That's why on battles where I am not forced to sacrifice my offense I am able to effectively tank so long as party members play wisely. My goal here is only to allow tanks to be an effective party member. Not to enable them to constantly keep hate while damage dealers recklessly cut lose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_%28gaming%29
A tank (also known as a meat shield) is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in mobas, real-time strategy games, role-playing games, Fighting Games and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, healing by other party members, evasiveness and misdirection, or self regeneration.[1]
Tanks are often represented as large or heavily armored.
Role in games
"Tanking" occurs when the unit is intended to be the one taking damage (typically by being dangerous or detrimental, or using a game mechanic that forces it to be targeted), and secondly, to ensure that they can survive this damage through sheer health points or mitigation.
Why is it that you think a TANK should have comparable offensive capabilities to a DD? Or that Generating threat should be tied to to this offensive ability?
What, then, would be the point of having seperate jobs for DD's and Tanks?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_%28gaming%29
Why is it that you think a TANK should have comparable offensive capabilities to a DD? Or that Generating threat should be tied to to this offensive ability?
What, then, would be the point of having seperate jobs for DD's and Tanks?
You are missing my point.
I do not necessarily think that a tank should have to have comparable offensive capabilities to a DD. What I am saying is that currently they do have to maintain a healthy offense if they want to have any hopes of competing for threat. Hopefully when SE reduces the amount of enmity generated by damage this issue will be alleviated.
In a perfect world I would like for Paladins to be able to wear full mitigation gear and still effectively compete for enmity and be an effective tank. But as things are now: that is exceedingly difficult to do because of the amount of enmity offense generates and the fact a Paladin in full mitigation gear has so very little of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_%28gaming%29
Why is it that you think a TANK should have comparable offensive capabilities to a DD? Or that Generating threat should be tied to to this offensive ability?
What, then, would be the point of having seperate jobs for DD's and Tanks?
The answer is simple. He is unsatisfied with the size of his e-peen on pld and wants it to do more damage. He is just trying to manipulate this issue to suit his needs.
The answer is simple. He is unsatisfied with the size of his e-peen on pld and wants it to do more damage. He is just trying to manipulate this issue to suit his needs.
Ulth, I am going to resist the urge to say something unpleasant to you.
This has nothing to do with my epeen or a desire to do more damage. This has to do with realizing the fact that you need to maintain a healthy offense to compete for threat on this game as a tank in the current system. I am just being realistic and identifying the problem.
Perhaps reducing the amount of enmity damage generates will fix this and make wearing mitigation gear less of a disadvantage in terms of enmity creation. In which case I will cease to have an issue and happily wear it regardless of what it does to my damage.
PlumbGame
03-25-2015, 06:23 AM
No they aren't. You are wrong. Offensive imbalances are an issue. Which is why SE is lowering the amount of enmity generated by damage to help mediate the problem. You are wrong about that too.
:)
Lol. Thank you by the way providing data to prove the years of studying and understanding the enmity system wrong. I'm also glad you saw SE changing enmity as somehow supporting your false statements.
Stop trying to validate your opinion as fact by trying to state "we have diffences in opinions" in every response you do when we actually give you facts.
Lol. Thank you by the way providing data to prove the years of studying and understanding the enmity system wrong. I'm also glad you saw SE changing enmity as somehow supporting your false statements.
Stop trying to validate your opinion as fact by trying to state "we have diffences in opinions" in every response you do when we actually give you facts.
Rather you want to admit it or not Plumb: the fact SE is lowering the amount of enmity generated by damage highlights that offensive imbalances as it relates to enmity creation is an issue and I'm not imagining it. SE recognizes it and is trying to fix it. Why you continue to think the fact paladins had to dump most of their offense to wear mitigation gear didn't add to this problem continues to be a mystery to me. Of course it did. That should be common sense.
So you can laugh and try to insult me all you want. But it is an issue and I'm glad they are trying to address it.
The only one trying to validate their opinions here is you. I need no validation. I already know what the problem is and why tanks were having a hard time being effective. But you can continue to believe it was all about the enmity caps and offense imbalances had nothing to do with it if you want. But it did. And that's a fact.
The bottom line is Paladins wearing mitigation gear just didn't have the offense capabilities to compete for threat in a system that favors offense for enmity. This is has been a growing problem for years now. It just finally hit its peak and SE is finally going to do something about it.
Rather you want to admit it or not Plumb: the fact SE is lowering the amount of enmity generated by damage highlights that offensive imbalances as it relates to enmity creation was an issue.
Except that offense isn't (and shouldn't be) the issue. They recognize that there is an enmity generation imbalance which is why they opted to decrease the enmity generated by damage (thereby increasing the relative enmity value for PLD abilities). If they really thought offensive imbalance was the issue (they don't), they would have upped PLD offense instead of this change.
It seems like you kind of get it but keep insisting that offense is the cause. It isn't. The reason I keep bringing this up is because you seem to want the imbalance (regardless of your impression of the cause) to change. If so, you should be lobbying to increase enmity from abilities or have an enmity mod attached to PLD WS (that is much less based on damage), rather than enmity based on dps. That is a losing battle on PLD.
Lol. Thank you by the way providing data to prove the years of studying and understanding the enmity system wrong. I'm also glad you saw SE changing enmity as somehow supporting your false statements.
Stop trying to validate your opinion as fact by trying to state "we have diffences in opinions" in every response you do when we actually give you facts.
Yeah Plumb! you think it's easy for a pld to cap DT and ACC? That they could just wear this set (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/333753) and augment the Yorium with -3% DT, ACC/ATK +20, and DA +3%? Clearly that is the problem with enmity not caps.
/s
PlumbGame
03-25-2015, 12:06 PM
Rather you want to admit it or not Plumb: the fact SE is lowering the amount of enmity generated by damage highlights that offensive imbalances as it relates to enmity creation is an issue and I'm not imagining it. SE recognizes it and is trying to fix it. Why you continue to think the fact paladins had to dump most of their offense to wear mitigation gear didn't add to this problem continues to be a mystery to me. Of course it did. That should be common sense.
So you can laugh and try to insult me all you want. But it is an issue and I'm glad they are trying to address it.
The only one trying to validate their opinions here is you. I need no validation. I already know what the problem is and why tanks were having a hard time being effective. But you can continue to believe it was all about the enmity caps and offense imbalances had nothing to do with it if you want. But it did. And that's a fact.
The bottom line is Paladins wearing mitigation gear just didn't have the offense capabilities to compete for threat in a system that favors offense for enmity. This is has been a growing problem for years now. It just finally hit its peak and SE is finally going to do something about it.
No one is insulting you. I'm merely asking for evidence to support your case the the enmity system is not what years of testing have shown it to be.
Your examples do not support that there is not a cap, all you are basically claiming is that when sitting at capped enmity, if you have "DD" gear on, you can potentially multi hit, allowing the last hit on the boss to hopefully be directed towards you, because outside of that, no one has a clue where you are going with your comments, because you sit at cap enmity in or not in DD gear or mitigation gear or w/e.
you could always read posts ike http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/30629-Enmity-System-Explanation-and-Planned-Adjustments to help you better understand how everyone just sits at caps etc...