The balance of damage-dealing jobs.

[Kylos]

I have played this game since 2004, and in that time I have seen damage-dealing (DD) jobs swing back-and-forth in a never-ending war of superiority. For most of FFXI's life, Samurai and Monk can be seen as the two jobs who have consistently held their own. In the older days of the game, jobs like Dark Knight and Dragoon were hard to level, as no one wanted them. Players felt those jobs were harder to play for the average user, and that would lead to favoritism over other DD jobs. (the terms, LOLdrk and LOLdrg spring to mind). It got somewhat acceptable for Dark Knight when Resolution was introduced. During the days of Voidwatch, a Resolution spamming Dark Knight was amazing. It trumped other options, and we saw a flood of new Ragnaroks because of it.

Dark Knight has been my main job since 2005, and I have tried my best to create a reputation as a Dark Knight. Too many DRKs in the past have given the job a bad reputation, but it was helped by the Resolution update. It was so cool to see other players on Dark Knight .. although I was wary of the passion those players had for the job. My father, he plays on the Xbox, and he decided to make Warrior his main job. When Abyssea came out, we decided to make Empyreans together (yes, I made a Redemption despite its hilarious stats). We then built our own relic weapons, the Bravura and Ragnarok. I made my relic, got it to 95 ... then the very next day, Delve was introduced! I had just spent millions of gil on the job, only for it to be usurped by Bereaver. I kept my Ragnarok in my storage for many months, until finally, item level 119 reforging was introduced for relics .. and everything was right again. I enjoyed being a damage dealer, and especially a Dark Knight, because you don't see many of them around. My father and I would take our heavy DD jobs to events, and have a lot of fun doing so.

My second job has always been THF. I always wanted THF to have more power, to be somewhat closer to the heavy DD, so it wasn't just a Treasure Hunter job. The enmity side of the job died out many years ago, and although I liked using THF to make money, the job is actually quite boring .. aside from using Flee. So I used THF to further my other jobs, and used Dark Knight as my main damage dealing job.

And then it happened. BANG! Rudra's Storm update. Now we see Samurais, Dancers and Thiefs EVERYWHERE. MNK is still around (just), but where are the other jobs? Warrior, Dark Knight and Dragoon. Three DD jobs with HEAVY gear, with HEAVY two handed weapons. Yet .. my weaponskill averages for Torcleaver/Resolution come out at around 3-4k in Woh Gates. A THF or DNC can easily do 10k+ WS averages. HOW does a Thief or Dancer (barely wearing anything and wielding two small daggers) do MORE damage than a Warrior, Dark Knight and Dragoon without even trying? Just by looking, you can see how that does not make logical sense.

Here is a comparison between those jobs and my DRK:
I made a Woh Gates Capacity points party last night. For the first time in many months, I decided to gear my Dark Knight up and take it out for a spin. With Bard buffs, I was told I was keeping up with the THF in the party .. but I was still slightly behind (and I ain't no slouch). The Sneak Attack/Trick Attack Rudras Storms (often with skillchain) kept the THF ahead of me rather easily. My father, who is 50 years old and plays the Xbox with a controller,(and is not known as the quickest player ever) was playing Dancer. He was slightly behind me with bard buffs, and he wasn't even trying to keep up. He plays the game rather casually, and he doesn't care to beat anyone, he just plays to relax.

And it got worse. We lost the bard, and I replaced the bard with a geomancer. It was impossible then, no matter how hard I tried, no matter how much accuracy I stacked, I could not keep up with the THF. My father, playing Dancer, started beating me on damage. The big scary looking Dark Knight with a Relic Great Sword could not beat a THF (delve daggers probably) and a DNC (Izhiikoh/Sabebus) on damage. I was told at the end of our party that my father had beaten me this time. He was happy to come out ahead for a change (because he never does), but I was left thinking .. why is my Dark Knight so weak?

My father told me he hasn't played Warrior for a long time, and misses playing it. I look around in today's game, and I don't see many Warriors, Dark Knights or Dragoons. It's filled with Thiefs, Dancers and Samurais. A mythic Samurai is supremely broken, and is still by far the best DD job in the game. The ONLY way a DRK WAR or DRG can compete is to have a Mythic Weapon. Why should any player who loves their heavy DD job be forced to build a Mythic to be accepted? It's not fair to those players.

I hate the Rudra's Storm update, I really do. And I hate how powerful Samurais are (the good ones who know how to use a Mythic) compared to other DD. The average weaponskill for these jobs are pitiful in comparison to Rudra's Storm. This rant needs to end, so I will give some suggestions:

Dark Knight - Make Endark II instant cast. Endark is NOT fun to use, it takes a lot of time away from damage dealing. Also lower the dread spikes cast, or make it instant. These two spells make it much harder for a DRK to be consistent. Also make Torcleaver stronger than Resolution. Apocalypse is COMPLETELY useless since the introduction of Trust.
Warrior - Either buff the weaponskills, or make the job exceptionally harder to kill. The biggest downfall for Warrior is its lack of survivability. Give Warriors much more defense in general, that way a Warrior can remain constant in battle, whereas other DD jobs might struggle to stay alive. Put Ukko's Fury back to how it used to be.
Dragoon - Fix the wyvern and lower the recast on Call Wyvern a LOT (seen this comment an incredible amount of times). Make jumps much more powerful/useful. Make the job more appealing by giving the ability to customize the wyvern. Adjust weaponskills for the job.


At the moment we have three jobs not using the heaviest looking gear, but deliver the heaviest numbers. Change this so I can play my Dark Knight (and my dad his Warrior) without feeling like we are costing the party. No player should be forced to build a Mythic to be considered on their favourite DD job for anything in today's game. Aside from all that, I like all the recent updates to the game. I just wish I wasn't stuck on THF or Corsair 99% of the time. I play this game to be a Dark Knight, I don't really care about other jobs, I always have the most fun on DRK. Give us something, and I don't mean Endark II .. I mean, REALLY give us something. Balance in this game would be a beautiful thing.

[V-1000]

In a way i do feel you and what trying to say, i am all up for DRK WAR and DRG boost in some way its been long overdue specially DRG's poor ws : : i do however have to disagree with you on Rudra's Storm, my main job is DNC and i am no average DNC but i am no mythic weapon user either, i am a 119 full relic set user with Izhiikoh and Sabebus on average at 100 tp i mainly do 3-5k-7-8k ish depending on the monster's lv, the only way i can reach 10k+ ws on anything over easy prey mandies in ceizak is by using building flourish and or climactic flourish to add to that, i almost always have to ws at 300tp to hit those high numbers, i dont think its fair your comparing your most likely 100tp ws vs a DNC or a THF at 300tp on top of that we are using 1 or 2 abilities to boost the ws it does not come for free like most people assume and certainly not at 100tp by closing ws we can deal massive dmg sc darkness DNC can do this on their own with reverse flourish or /SAM automatically doing more dmg. you cant compare a job who can SC with one who cant, also any jobs who closes a ws creating darkness or light will do more dmg on average, ive seen THF do 27k ws with sneak/trick +300tp and get a 32k darkness but ive also seen my best friend chain my 4k Shattersoul with his DRK and get a 35-44k darkness that ive mb water V for 17K, if we could spam 20k+ ws at 100 tp with no ability boost id agree with you but we have to save tp to 300 and use 1 or 2 abilities to make those omg ws dmg you are witnessing, also how come when a job like DNC and or THF that before Rudra's came along were pretty much always left out the dd spots finally get to shine, to be on top for once everyone has a negative opinion about it, even SE agree that these 2 jobs were also consider damage dealers therefore they needed something to actually deal dmg with, take a look at all our other ws, they all suck, Rudra is the only ws we can spike that high and the only viable way to deal dmg in Adoulin areas and you want to take that away from us because your DRK cant spikes his ws? i agree with you, that those jobs you mention need a boost both in offense and defense but mainly your atk speed 2 handed weapons are so slow anyone with a dagger/katana/sword even axe will most likely out dd you on reg dmg. but i don't think killing DNC and THF's only viable ws is the right thing to do, i like finally having my DNC get invited to events for once as a dmg dealer and again its not fair that because we get to be on top for a change everyone is trying to force a nerf on Rudra so that these to jobs can go back to being obsolete……... find another option that doesn't involved killing 2 job to make yourself feel better about yours. no offense intended.

[V-1000]

Also heavy set gear is more for def than dmg, wearing something heavy has nothing to do with how much dmg you can do it just means you have more defense than any other job. did not really mention SAM on last post, they can spam ws every couple of sec but no one seems to be bother by it but the second DNC and THF got something good everyone /bark SAM and MNK have been on top for years and people did not really cared as those were jobs fav by the players even if they were overpowered…. this Rudra's Storm WITCH HUNT is just BS! and needs to stop.

[dasva]

Part of it isn't so much as how powerful they are as how powerful they are perceived or how commonly they get the buffs/debuffs to make them powerful... Like for example heavy DDS have usually excelled at having abundance of attack... well now a lot of groups are running with lots of +att/-def buffs/debuffs making the heavy dds att irrelevant.

I've seen and done 60k ws with cloudsplitter and trueflight and those are generally ws that are laughed at. And I still haven't finished my builds. But this requires magic buffs/debuffs which most aren't willing to do. Though even without it I was able to end a self light a few tims with my pet for a good 6-10k cloudsplitter then magic burst it for another 3-4k (no pet mab sets :( ) in yorcia delve the other day with no magic buffs/debuffs

[V-1000]

Well Kylos it seems your wish just came true, just saw the upcoming nerf to Rudra's storm thanks to people like you my DNC will now go back to being useless ty for this…..freaking people man… as long as their jobs are on top they don't complaint but when someone else's is its a crime. i knew this would happen if people keep bringing it up over and over.

[Ladynamine]

Well Kylos it seems your wish just came true, just saw the upcoming nerf to Rudra's storm thanks to people like you my DNC will now go back to being useless ty for this…..freaking people man… as long as their jobs are on top they don't complaint but when someone else's is its a crime. i knew this would happen if people keep bringing it up over and over.

where's the proof?

EDIT: Nevermind. found it. there goes dnc's only decent damaging ws. good thing i got all my gear from skirmish before all of this happened. now yorcia weald will truly be mage only when it comes to alluvion skirmish.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/46258-Job-Adjustments-in-March-2015-Update?p=542969&viewfull=1#post542969

[Traxus]

I've full cleared 3/3/3 alluvion yorcia with 2 players, so I think you can manage to bring whatever jobs you want to a 6man group.

[Ladynamine]

I've full cleared 3/3/3 alluvion yorcia with 2 players, so I think you can manage to bring whatever jobs you want to a 6man group.

exactly...but tell that to all of my server....they think its mage only xD ....friend of mine and me did it as dnc, dnc, whm w/ friend duo-boxing whm and dnc.

[Ulth]

He probably was using blu, which completely owns that event. Blu is actually a top tier dd with a ton of versatility, but they won't have to worry about getting nerfed. Because 90% of blus are terrible, 99% of players don't know how blu works, it by far the hardest job to gear and get spells for, and 73.6% of all statistics are made up.

[Traxus]

Blu is probably best, but I've been going sch because I need JP on that job. Anyone that can cure/haste valiants to do book (smn or rdm is best for haste 2) + any nuker should be able to clear ~t3 if you know what you're doing. I haven't tried to solo or duo t4/5 so idk if they're any harder.

[Kylos]

Pretty sure SE didn't start considering nerfs to dagger weaponskills because of this post, and it's not what I wanted anyway. I wonder how many people cared to read and understand my original post.

For those who say that "dancer and thief still need to do something to get their massive WS", you seem to forget that I have Thief, and I was THF last night in Woh Gates, and I was absolutely destroying. You have to be completely blind to not notice the massive DPS difference between DNC/THF in comparison to DRK/WAR/DRG (without Mythic).

Important: Any numbers listed below were under the effects of BRD buffs, on Woh Gates level (119+) monsters. Your damage may vary greatly depending on buffs/equipment/target/ability. These numbers are estimates from eyeballing.

I could do Evisceration at 1000 tp whenever I didn't have SA/TA, often doing over 2-3k and getting skillchains. I was doing Rudras Storms of 10-20k (without skillchains) just by using TA or SA with it. I don't always ws at 1750 if I have SA/TA ready. It helps but it's not necessary. I was using /dnc as well, just to keep debuffs off.

Also, why are people waiting til 3000TP to use Rudras!?? You either use Evisceration at 1000, or Rudra's at 1750 (unstacked). Either will do great damage. A Rudras Storm at any TP level paired with Climactic or Sneak Attack will do great damage. DON'T SAVE TP TO 3000! You may see your DPS skyrocket as a result. You are wasting time saving that much TP, unless you are about to pop something.

My DRK gets NOWHERE NEAR the numbers my THF does. Same mobs, similar buffs, Thief completely kills worms and bunnies, whereas my DRK struggles ... unless I have Torcleaver + Sekkanoki ready. All I could do on DRK was set the THF up for skillchains. On THF I was by far the most damaging DD we had last night (and we took three THFs), and despite that, I was surviving seriously well because the mobs didn't last long.

I didn't come here to say "NERF THE ONE HANDERS!", I came here to say, "BOOST THE TWO HANDERS!" (except Sam) to the point where it becomes more balanced. I don't want SE to buff WAR DRK and DRG so hard that everyone stops playing SAM THF and DNC.

I want to add that I have never liked how powerful Samurai is. SAM put jobs like DRK WAR and DRG out in the cold well before the Rudras update. This is why I am asking for a boost to DRK WAR and DRG, to bring them closer (or on the same level) as Samurai. These jobs should be just as, or slightly (and I mean SLIGHTLY, not MILES MORE) more powerful than one handers. I have always been against how powerful Samurai is with their unlimited skillchains.

Nerfing Rudras Storm and other dagger WS will not fix Dark Knight, Warrior or Dragoon, so I am firmly AGAINST the nerf. Sorry for caps locking certain words, but the game frustrates me. Square Enix cannot see the differences in damage-dealing jobs and how they can be balanced so people will (and be accepted) play any DD job. I should never have the feeling that I am killing the parties damage output because of my job.

I considered making a Dark Knight guide lately for another forum. You know what the response was? I was told to make a guide about dropping DRK and picking up SAM instead. That may have been absolutely hilarious to some, but to me, it was insulting. I love Dark Knight, I shouldn't be ridiculed because I want to play it, or teach others how to play it.

[Zarchery]

The talk of "balance" among damage dealing jobs has been going on since the start of the game. It reminds me of that science fiction trope where someone goes back in time to change history, but ends up causing unintended and unforeseen consequences. So that person goes back again to fix THOSE things, but causes MORE problems. And the cycle repeats itself, and things just keep getting worse until the time traveler gives up.

It's like an endless broken record. "This job is broken. Please fix it. This other job is overpowered. Please weaken it." People act like Square Enix isn't doing anything about it. But they have been doing things about it for over a decade. It's just that like the time traveler, they are trying to fix an unfixable problem. Some damage dealing jobs will always be more popular than others.

[saevel]

So can we start dancing around a giant burning effigy of a thief?

Anyone with half a brain saw this nerf coming, it was simply too powerful and opened up an abusive mechanic that many players immediately jumped on. It was similiar to the old school RNG situation except at least SE didn't let it get out of hand.

As for you DNC's, RS isn't even your best WS though it does have the best SC properties for abuse.

[Ulth]

So can we start dancing around a giant burning effigy of a thief?

Anyone with half a brain saw this nerf coming, it was simply too powerful and opened up an abusive mechanic that many players immediately jumped on. It was similiar to the old school RNG situation except at least SE didn't let it get out of hand.

As for you DNC's, RS isn't even your best WS though it does have the best SC properties for abuse.

That sums it up nicely. People with half a brain saw it coming, people with all their brain know that thf still isn't best DD. But no, people are mad at thf, not at sam, not at dnc, not at blu. Why is this? because everyone has thf leveled, because everyone needs to farm something at some point. Not many people are as enthusiastic about dnc as someone like Bryth is, and blu is by far the most difficult job to gear, but everyone has a decent thf to solo salvage and dynamis. They don't even realize that there are people who like to play thf, and are happy they can do something with their favorite job now. Just a bunch of crabs in a bucket, if they can't have fun with their favorite job why should anyone else.

[FrankReynolds]

People really need to stop shouting "X job can do a 20k weapon skill! Nerf all the things!" and look at the actual Damage over time. There's a lot of jobs that are competitive / better than thief at the moment.

Never mind the fact that there's nothing in the game that you even need that kind of damage to beat. I'm not saying that other jobs couldn't use a buff, but honestly, there's really no reason that anyone wouldn't invite those jobs as they are other than specific monster gimmicks like piercing damage or w/e. I did a pick up delve with beast, monk, and a pup as DDS last night and no one batted an eye. That's on a server where I've spent the last several years on thf being told things like "What are you gonna do? Tickle it to death?" or "Sorry, we don't need treasure hunter for this...".

[Jassik]

BLU isn't hard to gear or play, it is just much less forgiving to players who compromise for inventory, time, or Gil.

[Ulth]

BLU isn't hard to gear or play, it is just much less forgiving to players who compromise for inventory, time, or Gil.

lol, blu isn't harder to gear you just need to spend more time on it, more gil on it, and devote more inventory to it. What is harder about that?

[Malthar]

"What are you gonna do? Tickle it to death?"

That's why bst got the colibri pet. Oh wait! The colibri doesn't even get feather tickle. /troll

[Sandmaste]

Those of you who are saying other DD's can do more DoT then a THF atm might be correct, but the problem is due stacked WS numbers of over 20k and even higher SC's, the THF job is now being abused.

There are some tough Unity fights out there, but not when you have a couple of thf's and a job to open Darkness. Even the toughest of NM's are brought down in very little time.

W're not talking fodder mobs in CP party's, we're talking the DoT on some pre-boss and Boss NM's that are not designed to be taken down in the very short period of time that they currently are.

[FrankReynolds]

Those of you who are saying other DD's can do more DoT then a THF atm might be correct, but the problem is due stacked WS numbers of over 20k and even higher SC's, the THF job is now being abused.

There are some tough Unity fights out there, but not when you have a couple of thf's and a job to open Darkness. Even the toughest of NM's are brought down in very little time.

W're not talking fodder mobs in CP party's, we're talking the DoT on some pre-boss and Boss NM's that are not designed to be taken down in the very short period of time that they currently are.

DPS is DPS. Quick deaths are a product of bad monster design. They would be brought down quickly regardless of thief because (yes I'll repeat it) there are other jobs that do just as much damage. You could completely remove thief and dancer from the game and guess what.... Those monsters would still be killed incredibly easy.

[Ulth]

I would argue that quick deaths zerg strategies are more of a ffxi staple at this point, only difference now is thfs are the ones doing it instead of drks.

[Traxus]

The only job that competes with thf on those quick fights (aka everything now) is dnc, and they are both doing that much damage/trivializing content for the same reason: rudras. Maybe other jobs could match thf|dnc dps if the fights lasted several minutes (and by other jobs we really just mean sam), but if everything dies in less than one, that dps is irrelevant.

Yeah, you could multiply monsters HP a few times over so fights last longer, but that would accomplish nothing besides making those monsters disproportionately harder to kill for setups that don't involve thf|dnc|sam. Than you could also buff every other DD job to make up for it, but that's a whole lot of hoops to go through when simply nerfing skillchains and dagger WS accomplishes the same thing.

[Ulth]

No seriously Frank is right, even if they nerf thf, dnc, and sam into oblivion the community would come up with some other cheap tactic for a zerg fight for unity. It's how the game works, since it's not a battle field there is ample time to prepare for zergs too. The next best zerg would probably involve geos, and either cor or rngs using some combination of trueflight, leaden salute, and wildfire.

[Kylos]

How can anyone say Dark Knight, Warrior and Dragoon (without Mythic Weapons) do just as much damage than a good THF or DNC? I ain't seeing that, all I see is SAM THF and DNC.

My Dark Knight and Thief has 119 gear. Aside from a lack of a RME weapon on my THF, the gear progression is about equal. I do better damage on my THF/DNC than I do on my DRK/SAM ... unless my DRK receives zero debuffs and has full support, while my THF struggles to use SA for whatever reason. THF/NIN beats DRK/NIN as well, especially when you skillchain with the other Rudras Storm users. I need to be exceptionally fast on Dark Knight to keep up with a good THF if we both have buffs.

I just can't see any DRK WAR or DRG doing more damage. Please point me to a player who is not part of an endgame LS and sporting a Mythic, then have them jump server and I will see how they fair against my THF.

Like I have said many times now, SE should not nerf Rudras or Samurai (and I have disliked the power of Samurai much longer than Rudras), they should balance the DD jobs for a change. I know this seems to be an impossible task, but it would be nice if it was attempted. Diversity makes the game more fun to play. I don't want to see a standard party of SAM THF DNC GEO BRD WHM (or something similiar) every single time.

SE shouldn't be nerfing everything at this point. Just learn how to boost other jobs to be competitive. Is that really so hard to do? I have lived with the fact that Dark Knight has been neglected for many years in favour of other DD. I could accept the fact that Samurai was supremely broken with a Mythic. I was hoping it would be fixed at some point, to bring WAR DRK and DRG back into the game, but it never happpened. At this point you might as well delete WAR DRK and DRG from the game because no one needs them for anything, except to mess around on in their spare time.

Sad, but true.

I wanted to add one final example. Did Tenzen on Difficult the other day. A Warrior with Conqueror decided to come /sam. Even with /sam, he was still unable to do more damage than me. How does a WAR/SAM with a mythic and buffs not beat a THF/NIN with Izhiikoh and Sabebus? Baring in mind that I was tanking most of the time and unable to utilize Sneak Attack.

[FrankReynolds]

How can anyone say Dark Knight, Warrior and Dragoon (without Mythic Weapons) do just as much damage (or more) than a good THF or DNC? I ain't seeing that, all I see is SAM THF and DNC.

My Dark Knight and Thief has 119 gear. Aside from a lack of a RME weapon on my THF, the gear progression is about equal. I do better damage on my THF/DNC than I do on my DRK/SAM ... unless my DRK receives zero debuffs and has full support, while my THF struggles to use SA for whatever reason. THF/NIN beats DRK/NIN as well, especially when you skillchain with the other Rudras Storm users. I need to be exceptionally fast on Dark Knight to keep up with a good THF if we both have buffs.

I just can't see any DRK WAR or DRG doing more damage. Please point me to a player who is not part of an endgame LS and sporting a Mythic, then have them jump server and I will see how they fair against my THF.

Like I have said many times now, SE should not nerf Rudras or Samurai (and I have disliked the power of Samurai much longer than Rudras), they should balance the DD jobs for a change. I know this seems to be an impossible task, but it would be nice if it was attempted. Diversity makes the game more fun to play. I don't want to see a standard party of SAM THF DNC GEO BRD WHM (or something similiar) every single time.

SE shouldn't be nerfing everything at this point. Just learn how to boost other jobs to be competitive. Is that really so hard to do? I have lived with the fact that Dark Knight has been neglected for many years in favour of other DD. I could accept the fact that Samurai was supremely broken with a Mythic. I was hoping it would be fixed at some point, to bring WAR DRK and DRG back into the game, but it never happpened. At this point you might as well delete WAR DRK and DRG from the game because no one needs them for anything, except to mess around on in their spare time.

Sad, but true.

Honestly, thf isn't as far ahead as you think. I think your're spending most of your thf time on things that thf is already naturally good at. And let's be honest. those three jobs could use some love, but THF and DNC have had a pretty crap run over the last 10 or so years. I think people need to just let them have their moment. I for one spent way too many years being told to tag the mob once and then drop party lol. At least DRK, WAR and DRG get to stay in the whole fight.

They could probably solve this whole problem by just nerfing skillchain damage and applying a bonus to the jobs that should have it appropriately instead of nerfing the weapon skills themselves and ruining solo damage and entire jobs in the process.



I wanted to add one final example. Did Tenzen on Difficult the other day. A Warrior with Conqueror decided to come /sam. Even with /sam, he was still unable to do more damage than me. How does a WAR/SAM with a mythic and buffs not beat a THF/NIN with Izhiikoh and Sabebus? Baring in mind that I was tanking most of the time and unable to utilize Sneak Attack.

I tried that once. He spams weapon skills with debuffs on you. If you don't have shadows, you get paralyzed, slowed and stunned a lot. That fight really leans in favor of jobs that can make use of /nin well. AKA anything that uses a single hand weapon and evades fairly well so that they don't spend all their time putting up shadows or being debuffed. I think thf and monk were pretty much the best for that even before the update.

[Ulth]

Aside from a lack of a RME weapon on my THF, the gear progression is about equal.

I'm getting really tired of hearing this. With the exception of ghorn, aegis, and annihilator there really aren't relic weapons that stand the test of time. Unless you have vajra, your next best option for thf is Izhiikoh. The one you are using. I don't know what relic you are using for drk, but chances are you are better off using one of the Alluvion Weapons if you aren't going to make a mythic. I honestly don't know though I haven't done the math, but generally the Alluvion 2h Weapons are good because of their high delay, and high base damage, which gets even higher with good augments. A drg with Olyndicus is pretty damn fierce. However again I have not done the math for the others. Really if you plan on redoing the drk guide it might be something to look into. Another thing is party support that cater to the needs of drk, war, and drg. For example, An 11 on miser's roll with the +5 ring gives save tp +325. That and fighter's roll should have those jobs pumping out weapon skills like a tsuru sam.

[Jassik]

lol, blu isn't harder to gear you just need to spend more time on it, more gil on it, and devote more inventory to it. What is harder about that?

Hard indicates that there is some skill or rarity restriction in getting the equipment, this couldn't be farther from the truth. There is very little current BLU equipment that requires clearing difficult content or is very rare. The rarest of the ideal gear for BLU involves random augments (which every job has to deal with), optional dynamis torques for some spells, optional movement speed and refresh pieces. I wouldn't say there is anything hard about AF quests or trading augment stones. The hardest part of gearing BLU is knowing what gear to get.

[Kylos]

I'm getting really tired of hearing this. With the exception of ghorn, aegis, and annihilator there really aren't relic weapons that stand the test of time. Unless you have vajra, your next best option for thf is Izhiikoh. The one you are using. I don't know what relic you are using for drk, but chances are you are better off using one of the Alluvion Weapons if you aren't going to make a mythic. I honestly don't know though I haven't done the math, but generally the Alluvion 2h Weapons are good because of their high delay, and high base damage, which gets even higher with good augments. A drg with Olyndicus is pretty damn fierce. However again I have not done the math for the others. Really if you plan on redoing the drk guide it might be something to look into. Another thing is party support that cater to the needs of drk, war, and drg. For example, An 11 on miser's roll with the +5 ring gives save tp +325. That and fighter's roll should have those jobs pumping out weapon skills like a tsuru sam.

Well I tried augmenting the Macbain but have yet to get decent augments. Also I prefer using my Ragnarok .. my first and only relic weapon .. so I decided to save gil to augment the equipment instead. It's possible to get some pretty nice weapons out of it, but only if you are lucky or have the gil to back it up. Thief also gets Ipetam, which is amazing with the right augments. Like I said before, I don't want to gimp THF and DNC, I just want the other DD jobs to have more of an even playing field. If those DD jobs are not going to get more ways to skillchain, their normal damage should be boosted instead to compensate. A Mythic SAM could still be the best DD. THF and DNC could still be used for high tier fights and unity.

All it would do is change a leaders /yell (Looking for members) SAM to /yell (Looking for members) DD. SAM gets invited because it can reliably skillchain on all content, and some content requires certain skillchains in quick succession. This is very convenient for SAM, but not so convenient for the DD jobs without Rudras.

At this point in the game, if someone asked me which DD I wanted them on, SAM THF or DNC would be the first three, just because of the skillchain abuse. They need little support to do great damage.

[Ulth]

Ipetam is more of a tricky weapon to know if it's better overall for thf or not. Because of it's high delay for a dagger you are trading tp rate for ws damage. You need some solid augments on it to make it better than Izhiikoh. On the other hand I'm pretty sure even an unaugmented Macbain is better than Ragnarok.

[saevel]

Hard indicates that there is some skill or rarity restriction in getting the equipment, this couldn't be farther from the truth. There is very little current BLU equipment that requires clearing difficult content or is very rare. The rarest of the ideal gear for BLU involves random augments (which every job has to deal with), optional dynamis torques for some spells, optional movement speed and refresh pieces. I wouldn't say there is anything hard about AF quests or trading augment stones. The hardest part of gearing BLU is knowing what gear to get.


This is something a lot of people don't get. BLU is an incredibly complex job that can be amazing or completely suck depending largely on the player. Because BLU's JT's are configurable along with it's assortment of other abilities, it's possible to construct it to be virtually any job. It can be as offensive or defensive as you need, a laser focused DD or a generalist self-supporter, but it can't do all these things at once. The player needs to carefully chose the right subjob matched with the right spell load out matched with the appropriate gear selection and macros then they need to employ all this in combat whilst making snap judgements that can have a large effect on the usefulness of that BLU. It's got a very high skill - power curve unlike SAM, MNK or THF (after RS buff). It's the reason I love playing BLU and it's the reason it's virtually impossible for BLU to ever become a bandwagon job. A hundred people suddenly gearing BLU according to proth's guide will still produce a hundred sh!tty BLU's who will be unable to actually do well. It takes time a lot of experience to learn to play effectively.

[saevel]

Ipetam is more of a tricky weapon to know if it's better overall for thf or not. Because of it's high delay for a dagger you are trading tp rate for ws damage. You need some solid augments on it to make it better than Izhiikoh. On the other hand I'm pretty sure even an unaugmented Macbain is better than Ragnarok.

It's not. I have DMG +36 Atk/Acc +15 DA+4 on my Macbain and Rag is still stronger depending on what your doing. Spamming Resolution favors Rag while Torc favors Macbain, largely it's centered around how much Store TP is required to achieve the appropriate x-hit. That last TP/delay update had a very good effect on Rag making it really easy to get 6-hit with a ton of multi-attack to spare, weapons over 500 delay on the other hand didn't get much improvement and require sacrificing some multi-attack for enough store TP. For WS damage, my well augmented Macbain is only ~17% stronger on resolution even though it's base DMG is so high.

[Kylos]

Bumping this. Please make more melee-friendly content which does not favour skillchain + Magic Burst, pets, or rangers. Please make WAR DRK and DRG useful in some way, make them unique, and able to survive against tough content easier without support. As long as the "heavy" DD do not dish out enough damage, and as long as the vast majority of content dies easily (and safely) to magic bursts and ranger/pet strategies, those of us who love playing these jobs (except Samurai) will never get the chance to play them outside of old/casual content.

Please make (some) NM/regular monsters which are resistant to skillchains, magic bursts, sleeps, and take extra melee damage. Don't just make them resistant, but make many of them appear (in fast waves) so you simply cannot have a bunch of Paladins/Pets kill them slowly. It should be rewarding to bring heavy DD jobs, and for a long time, it's been nothing but an inconvenience.

I have not played Dark Knight regularly since Delve I. Also please make Scythe "usable" again. Aside from Liberator, you could delete the weapon type from the game and it would not effect DRK in the slightest. I've been asking about Scythe since Resolution was introduced, but sadly .. never heard anything from SE about it. Rune Fencer has Great Sword, so why can't Dark Knight have Scythe?

WAR should have Ukko's Fury put back to how it used to be, and DRG just needs a new WS in general. All three jobs should have ways to survive and take status effects off without using dancer sub job. I don't want all content to be melee-friendly, but at least give us something aside from Delve or Skirmish.

[Olor]

A hundred people suddenly gearing BLU according to proth's guide will still produce a hundred sh!tty BLU's who will be unable to actually do well. It takes time a lot of experience to learn to play effectively.

I love BLU and it's one of the jobs I've put the most effort into gearing, but I still suck at it compared to what it can do. So I agree with this sentiment. It's a really tough job to master.

[Kylos]

Bumping again. While pet jobs, mages and rangers have a place in most content, heavy damage dealing jobs like DRK WAR and DRG do not have a place in the majority of content.

I'll continue to gear my Dark Knight as long as the game remains active, but for the love of Altana .. give us a reason to play these jobs, and not at the expense of other jobs. Sometimes I feel like I am the only person seriously bothered by this. I understand the need to play more than one job so you can get content done, and I do that, but the game is at its best when I play on my DRK.

I have been playing the job over a decade, but for the last few years it has become my least used job. Please give me a reason to play it anywhere except a Capacity Points party, or old content.

[Kylos]

Are you tired of watching your pets have all the fun? Are you tired of standing back and using ranged attacks and elemental magic to stay safe? Perhaps you want to get stuck in there with a melee damage-dealing job? But then you realize, melee DD jobs don't work because they require a lot of support and end up dead from AoE and status effects. The job you once played every day for years, suddenly became a job you want to play, but no one will take. You want to keep it up-to-date, but what's the point if you can't play it?

I still feel this way about DRK. While I could use DRK for absolutely everything, it's not feasible. I would still struggle to stay alive against Escha NM, and instead of using an optimal setup using pets, rangers, or black mages, the melee setup would crumble before you can say "Wooo, look at me go!". Does anyone else feel like they can't use their favourite melee jobs anymore? Perhaps you're a SAM, and the only useful thing you can do is pop Perfidien and Plouton in Vagary. What happened to the almighty Samurai? What happened to the days when WAR was regarded a top tier DD? Did DRG ever get its time in the sun outside of Colibri camps?

So this is another bump. I know, shame on me. I only do so because SE REFUSES to acknowledge the fact that most melee DDs are useless in today's game. What's the point in playing DD when you can throw some Beastmaster pets at it? Why play melee DD when you can stand back and do damage as a Ranger and live through it? Why do melee DDs have such a hard time fighting in range, while pets, rangers and black mages can happily carry on with little-to-no repercussions? Yes, Beastmaster got a "nerf" by having their range shortened considerably, BUT IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING, because people still throw Beastmasters at it, you just have to "not suck", and have some damage taken- equipment.

So I ask once again, for the sake of all those who love to get stuck in when they damage deal, click that little "Like" button down there, because apparently, SE only takes notice of threads with lots of likes. Unless you really want to keep playing BST, RNG, or BLM for everything. Again, I'm looking for a balance, I don't want melee DD jobs to take over the game so BST, RNG and BLM are left out (No more nerfs please), all I ask is .. throw us a bone or two. Give us something .. so I can be happy at this point of the games life.

[Olor]

Hey I agree DRK/WAR/DRG could all use a boost but could you stop attacking pet jobs?

Anyway the game is seriously unbalanced at this point and it is a real shame.

[Urthdigger]

Are you tired of watching your pets have all the fun? Are you tired of standing back and using ranged attacks and elemental magic to stay safe? Perhaps you want to get stuck in there with a melee damage-dealing job? But then you realize, melee DD jobs don't work because they require a lot of support and end up dead from AoE and status effects. The job you once played every day for years, suddenly became a job you want to play, but no one will take. You want to keep it up-to-date, but what's the point if you can't play it?

I still feel this way about DRK. While I could use DRK for absolutely everything, it's not feasible. I would still struggle to stay alive against Escha NM, and instead of using an optimal setup using pets, rangers, or black mages, the melee setup would crumble before you can say "Wooo, look at me go!". Does anyone else feel like they can't use their favourite melee jobs anymore? Perhaps you're a SAM, and the only useful thing you can do is pop Perfidien and Plouton in Vagary. What happened to the almighty Samurai? What happened to the days when WAR was regarded a top tier DD? Did DRG ever get its time in the sun outside of Colibri camps?

So this is another bump. I know, shame on me. I only do so because SE REFUSES to acknowledge the fact that most melee DDs are useless in today's game. What's the point in playing DD when you can throw some Beastmaster pets at it? Why play melee DD when you can stand back and do damage as a Ranger and live through it? Why do melee DDs have such a hard time fighting in range, while pets, rangers and black mages can happily carry on with little-to-no repercussions? Yes, Beastmaster got a "nerf" by having their range shortened considerably, BUT IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING, because people still throw Beastmasters at it, you just have to "not suck", and have some damage taken- equipment.

So I ask once again, for the sake of all those who love to get stuck in when they damage deal, click that little "Like" button down there, because apparently, SE only takes notice of threads with lots of likes. Unless you really want to keep playing BST, RNG, or BLM for everything. Again, I'm looking for a balance, I don't want melee DD jobs to take over the game so BST, RNG and BLM are left out (No more nerfs please), all I ask is .. throw us a bone or two. Give us something .. so I can be happy at this point of the games life.

Gonna have to agree there. Been trying to catch up and beat the SoA missions... but my only level 99 jobs are MNK, DNC, and NIN. So, it's basically been a bad time.

[Jile]

If you don't already have the rhapsodies ki's for 5 trusts I'd recommend that first. A couple of the fights might still be painful but possible at least. Wish you were on Phoenix, I'd lend a hand :(

[Kuroganashi]

The Balance on the DD Jobs are MESSED UP When a PLD out DD a MNK >.> and when my NIN does way better than a SAM MNK DRG DRK PLD RNG BLU on WS DMG >.> and Skillchain / MB

They should revise those and make sure that : MNK DRG DRK SAM are back at the TOP DDs Followed by other jobs and PLD on last row >.> PLD not a DD but a Tank , so I dont understand why a PLD doing 10 K WS and a MNK doing only 3 K

ya.......... not just me but alot of ppl doing shit dmg on MNK >.> Even TOP Players with 119 Relic , Mythic , Emp still not doing the DMG they supposed to.

PLD just isn't supposed to do 10 K >.>

MNK should be doing 7~11 K Victory Smites not 3~5 K

Also EMPERYAN WEAPON SKILLS Must be back to its Former GLORY !

When we see a Savage Blade out DD a CDC >.> it makes you wonder WTF

or Raging Fists doing better than Victory Smite >.>

Blade: Ku and Shun out DD HI

Sidewinder out DD Jishnu's Radiance >.>

Not to mention the Freaking Shoha out DD FUDO >.> WTF !

so ya........ need to make EMP Better and need to bring back DD Jobs to being DD >.> and Tank to being TANKS <,<

My NIN Rapes most DD nowdays <,< doing 8~18 K WS (Depending on mob) and 1 WS each 7 seconds or less <,< Solo skillchain > Solo MB !

so please Revise jobs and make them able to be useful again >.>

ALOT of ppl QUIT cuz they feel they are useless now, be nice to have MNKs DRGs DRKs SAMs back at top :D

Thank you :D

[bazookatooth]

Hey I agree DRK/WAR/DRG could all use a boost but could you stop attacking pet jobs?

Anyway the game is seriously unbalanced at this point and it is a real shame.

I agree. They seriously need to look at the amount of damage / debuffs that anything on the front line takes. I mean you can still do most things with DD jobs that can reasonably sub /nin like THF, DNC and BLU, but really all of them need some sort of defensive buffs. The difference in difficulty between throwing DDs at something or just nuking it is silly at this point.

[Krysten]

Mnk and PUP need a boost as well

[machini]

Just gonna say this: virtually no DDs should be complaining about taking too much damage. Slap on some damn -DT gear, and you should stop dying.

If losing 15% of your damage output means you don't spend 50% of the fight eating dirt, you are winning.

[Kuroganashi]

Mnk and PUP need a boost as well

Agreed !!!!!!!!!! MNK !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Zarchery]

Water finds its own level. Balance is not a thing created by the developers. It is an incidental creation of the playerbase. They have been chasing this sasquatch called "balance" since 2002. A handful of DD jobs will always be favored over another. The wheel keeps spinning.

I'm just wondering what DD jobs you guys use when you create your parties for current trendy activity.

[Rwolf]

At this point I'd like to see better debilitating enfeebles to make it easier for melee to be on the front lines. Attack Down, Accuracy Down that matters, Magic Attack Down, M.Acc Down. Unshackle the elemental DoTs so Bio can be applied with Dia. With things like Impact and the potency of helixes I don't see where it is game breaking any more to apply multiple elemental DoTs if someone was thinking of doing it that way.

Buffs as well like Phalanx II being hands down better than Accessioned Phalanx from the start. Bard songs like Paeon that have an actual decent regen or heal on impact + regen. Carols and resist songs that are worth not using that song slot. Also for the love of all that is Altana, Barlight and Bardark, there's so many mobs that this would benefit now.

I think we are well past the argument of it being too overpowered to ignore mob mechanics because they are already being circumvented with Rangers, nukers, pets and nullifying geomancers. It's too late in the game winding down content updates to really be nerf balancing all the safe strategies. Instead there just needs to be more options to support melee in range to close the gap but not eliminate reasons you'd use ranged attackers.

It doesn't matter how much players should just "get good" with their melee DD in farming and toggling defense sets when the common consensus is just to avoid it to begin with.