Job Adjustments in March 2015 Update

[Protey]

I'm liking the adjustments (yea new enhancing spell for RDM!), like the set enfeebling duration of enfeebles, what I don't get is why is the potency of Blind based on MND? That is an INT enfeeble. Or is SE making it so magic accuracy is based on INT and potency on MND?

[Zeargi]

I'm liking the adjustments (yea new enhancing spell for RDM!), like the set enfeebling duration of enfeebles, what I don't get is why is the potency of Blind based on MND? That is an INT enfeeble. Or is SE making it so magic accuracy is based on INT and potency on MND?


I think they mean the Target's MND stat as for a resist.

But I'm kind of excited for the SMN stuff. Woot, No more wearing the Twilight Cloak for Impact~!! :D

[Alhanelem]

Do the changes to Poison / Poison II affect anyone casting these spells or only red mages? Does it also affect poisonga? Do the changes also apply to monsters casting the spells?

[Protey]

Do the changes to Poison / Poison II affect anyone casting these spells or only red mages? Does it also affect poisonga? Do the changes also apply to monsters casting the spells?

was wondering that myself. they put it as a sub bullet under RDM, so one might think it only applies to RDM.

[Akihiko_Matsui]

Hail, adventurers! Matsui here with an update for you.

I would like to inform you that, based on your feedback, we have begun to consider balance adjustments for melee jobs, specifically the thief and samurai, in the March version update.

We are currently looking at adjusting balance in the following two ways:



The addition of a new spell known as “Ardor”
The adjustment of certain dagger weapon skills


I would like to share with you the thought process behind these adjustments.


The addition of Ardor
In our preview of job adjustments several days prior, we made mention of a new magic spell known as “Ardor.” We elected to add this spell in order to decrease the gaps in damage dealt between the various melee jobs.

As noted in that topic, Ardor increases skillchain damage based on the number of successful melee hits up until the time the weapon skill is activated.

Jobs that often go for long periods of time without using weapon skills will receive stronger bonuses, thereby decreasing the damage gap that currently exists.



The adjustment of certain dagger weapon skills
One topic keeps popping up where we hear players discussing the thief: skillchain damage when using weapon skills with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

These skills are particularly effective in content such as Wanted battles, where it‘s possible for thieves to accumulate TP in advance and when combat ends in a short period of time, but we believe that this is one of the job’s strengths.

Not all content enables players to accumulate TP in advance the way Wanted battles do, and other melee classes are competitive with thieves in extended combat scenarios.

As such, we wish to avoid adjusting Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, as doing so would be tantamount to destroying part of the thief job’s identity.

However, in its current state thief damage output is on par with or even surpasses that of other melee jobs even in long duration combat, and upon looking at melee jobs as a whole, we cannot deny that thieves are located at the top of the charts in a wide variety of content.

Ardor has an incredibly strong synergy with thieves, who autoattack quite frequently, and thus we expect that their skillchain damage would increase to numbers even higher than they currently are. As such, we believe it necessary to somewhat reduce the potency or certain dagger weaponskills in order to maintain balance with other jobs.

We are currently considering adjusting the following four weaponskills.



Shark Bite
Mercy Stroke
Mandalic Stab
Rudra’s Storm


These adjustments are meant to normalize damage between melee jobs, and there are some adjustments that can be viewed as nerfs when taken on the individual job level, so we wished to communicate these details to you in advance as we continue to thoroughly discuss this matter.

[MilkMansKid]

Hail, adventurers! Matsui here with an update for you.

I would like to inform you that, based on your feedback, we have begun to consider balance adjustments for melee jobs, specifically the thief and samurai, in the March version update.

We are currently looking at adjusting balance in the following two ways:



I would like to share with you the thought process behind these adjustments.


The addition of Ardor
In our preview of job adjustments several days prior, we made mention of a new magic spell known as “Ardor.” We elected to add this spell in order to decrease the gaps in damage dealt between the various melee jobs.

As noted in that topic, Ardor increases skillchain damage based on the number of successful melee hits up until the time the weapon skill is activated.

Jobs that often go for long periods of time without using weapon skills will receive stronger bonuses, thereby decreasing the damage gap that currently exists.



The adjustment of certain dagger weapon skills
One topic keeps popping up where we hear players discussing the thief: skillchain damage when using the weapon skills Sneak Attack and Trick Attack

These skills are particularly effective in content such as Wanted battles, where it‘s possible for thieves to accumulate TP in advance and when combat ends in a short period of time, but we believe that this is one of the job’s strengths.

Not all content enables players to accumulate TP in advance the way Wanted battles do, and other melee classes are competitive with thieves in extended combat scenarios.

As such, we wish to avoid adjusting Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, as doing so would be tantamount to destroying part of the thief job’s identity.

However, in its current state thief damage output is on par with or even surpasses that of other melee jobs even in long duration combat, and upon looking at melee jobs as a whole, we cannot deny that thieves are located at the top of the charts in a wide variety of content.

Ardor has an incredibly strong synergy with thieves, who autoattack quite frequently, and thus we expect that their skillchain damage would increase to numbers even higher than they currently are. As such, we believe it necessary to somewhat reduce the potency or certain dagger weaponskills in order to maintain balance with other jobs.

We are currently considering adjusting the following four weaponskills.



These adjustments are meant to normalize damage between melee jobs, and there are some adjustments that can be viewed as nerfs when taken on the individual job level, so we wished to communicate these details to you in advance as we continue to thoroughly discuss this matter.

All I see here is THF this THF that did you forget that this is a bigger nurf to DNC and BRDs (simple fix change their respective mythic wses to current RS lvls, yes I also now for mythic holders of those 2 jobs it would make them even stronger but not many people actually have them so ) which aren't at the crazy dmg lvls THFs are atm? Also I see you mention SAM then go into no detials so are they or are they not also getting hit with a nurf? Because if there not all you doing is turning it back into what was pre ws update and SAM only then.

[larrymc]

All I see here is THF this THF that did you forget that this is a bigger nurf to DNC and BRDs which aren't at the crazy dmg lvls THFs are atm? Also I see you mention SAM then go into no detials so are they or are they not also getting hit with a nurf? Because if there not all you doing is turning it back into what was pre ws update and SAM only then.

In a sense you are correct, they are going back to pre-ws update - which was "SAM only". And to address that gap between SAM vs everything else they introduce Ardor which boosts jobs that have more attack rounds between weaponskills (2 handed jobs - thf, dnc, nin, blu, etc). It just depends on how potent Ardor will be for those jobs.

[Selindrile]

I would like to inform you that, based on your feedback, we have begun to consider balance adjustments for melee jobs, specifically the thief and samurai, in the March version update.

I live in terror of the inevitable nerfbat.

[Smokenttp]

Without knowing the potency it will be pretty hard to guess but i am not sure if i agree with this, lets assume a scenario that with the new spell it gets as powerfull as it is today this will generate the following:

1- You will need an rdm in your party to deal heavy damage.

2- Depending on the job you will need someone to open the skill chain for you (nerfing the whole purpose of the update wich was to give those jobs more freedom in solo situations) and that is ignoring the main issue at hand (thf) , since thf only gets those real high damage under sneak and trick attack buffs and adjusting the wses will weaken other jobs dmg output (unless you walk with a rdm).

As mentioned earlier i am not sure if its the best aproach,if you need to weaken thf i would rather you power up sneak and/or trick attack and put then under higher cooldown (or you could divide then into sneak attack = the damage ja with higher damage potential + higher cooldown and trick attack the hate control ja with lower or no damage boost at all under a lower cooldown but transfer all the hate like snarl maybe? not sure about it) then lowering the damage on those ws, i mean if you take a look at the axes they are low because of the bst adjustments and all but the ws ended up all quite weak so unless you are a bst you have no reason to use an axe (dual wield axes run are sad), i am not sure if people will use lets say dnc for exemple at all if to funcion well they need a rdm to buff your damage, i mean if you where going with a rdm anyway its all well but what if the rdm is actually not part of your startegy? its a party slot right there and i know even tough this is a way to push back rdm into parties you could consider some other things as well like making possible for it to substitute in a certain extent an already existing job in case no one can find then to play with (see sugestions bellow).

3- Well the spell do absolutely NOTHING if you can not skill chain.

So having this in mind even if the potency for ardor is extremely high im not sure if this is the best way to deal with the current nerf issue (sneak/trick attack damage) but it might be indeed a good way for other jobs to try to catch up a bit.


Now for some off topic sugestions since matsui is watching this post, could you please consider adding some sort of occult amem (rebalancing this would be nice as well like giving it in lower levels , for more jobs naturally and adjusting poetncy) for healing magic as well? (giving it to both hybrid jobs and whm with the higher potency version on whm and a lower poetency on hybrids but let then have occult amem as well, also consider some form of tp switching ja between smn avatars and player).

The reason is that mages get some pretty interresting utility wses like shattersoul but barely use it because they have to stay safe.

As for rdm enfeenbling magics could you actually consider giving some more distract like debuffs for rdm with more things that geo has (not as potent as geo and i know its really hard to balance those but i would love to see things like a direct defense/acc/magic defence/attack/magic attack down line of debuffs on rdm as well (give it 2 tiers like with distract making tier 1 subjob level and tier 2 stronger on higher levels the same way you did with distract)).

I do realise some of those are covered with blind , bio , dia etc and that they can stack with those as well as with the geo equivalent but this would put rdm back in track as an enfeenbling user as well as giving some interresting tools as a subjob option.

And finally could you consider a buff on crusade( the nin version as well)? this was a step on the right direction with the tanking issue but i think that the potency is still a bit low.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for your attention.

[Conini]

Rudra’s Nerf.
Can’t really say I’m shocked… in fact, I’m surprised this didn’t come sooner.
(Inb4 they’re not going to nerf sam)
What strikes me as odd is to nerf the entire series of decent weaponskills for a job rather than simply nerf SaTa and Climactic Flourish, if it really needed that type of balance. Climactic doesn’t do as much damage as a SaTa’d weaponskill, on that note. So is this update really just to nerf non-mythic DNC? I suppose we’re going back to the Mesozoic era where the only way a DNC could keep up in content
(Without having a RDM casting on them? I’m just going to pretend I didn’t read about “Ardor”- you mean the skillchain damage we can’t do because no one cares about skillchains and would rather ruin it because they feel like parsing while losing is far better than winning the content while losing the parse is far greater?)
Is to have a mythic, due to the fact that Pyrrhic without mythic is NOWHERE on-par to Rudra’s spamming. Nice, I thought that was the entire thing about Adoulin- getting away from a huge gap between Mythic and Non-Mythic. Because let’s face it- Winning the DMG Chart > Skillchaining to Victory it won’t happen in this day and age- unless this new content revolves around skillchaining (which still kills content for non-mythic DNC).

[Scooter]

Leave Rudra's alone! Thief finally gets a spot in content after being dead for years. Nothing really requires treasure hunter anymore and thief fell to the wayside along with dancer and was forgotten. You boost a job to put it on par with other jobs and it finally is and now you wanna hit it with the nerf bat? Your ruining the damn game doing these things. Rudra's is fine where it is leave it alone! Go mess with beast or something.

[Tidis]

Since when does BST get in pt content? Anyway, while disappointed with the Rudra's nerf, it perhaps is a bit powerful but only when stacked which is the conundrum SE has themselves in, they don't want to nerf SATA so they're left with Rudra's, frankly it doesn't need a huge nerf but I can see the argument for a small nerf.

[Sephiran]

Rudra’s Nerf.
Can’t really say I’m shocked… in fact, I’m surprised this didn’t come sooner.
(Inb4 they’re not going to nerf sam)
What strikes me as odd is to nerf the entire series of decent weaponskills for a job rather than simply nerf SaTa and Climactic Flourish, if it really needed that type of balance. Climactic doesn’t do as much damage as a SaTa’d weaponskill, on that note. So is this update really just to nerf non-mythic DNC? I suppose we’re going back to the Mesozoic era where the only way a DNC could keep up in content
(Without having a RDM casting on them? I’m just going to pretend I didn’t read about “Ardor”- you mean the skillchain damage we can’t do because no one cares about skillchains and would rather ruin it because they feel like parsing while losing is far better than winning the content while losing the parse is far greater?)
Is to have a mythic, due to the fact that Pyrrhic without mythic is NOWHERE on-par to Rudra’s spamming. Nice, I thought that was the entire thing about Adoulin- getting away from a huge gap between Mythic and Non-Mythic. Because let’s face it- Winning the DMG Chart > Skillchaining to Victory it won’t happen in this day and age- unless this new content revolves around skillchaining (which still kills content for non-mythic DNC).

I actually did not predict a nerf to Rudra's because it's not exactly optimal to bring multiple THF's to the overwhelming majority of content in which Treasure Hunter plays a roll. As stated by Camate some years back, varying levels of Treasure Hunter in simultaneous application detrimentally affect the trait.

Personally, I was hoping for a buff to Resolution, Victory Smite, and similar damage-oriented weapon skills to even things out in events where Treasure Hunter was irrelevant. However, this doesn't seem so likely anymore and I can see Savage Blade getting nerfed in April now. Ultimately, the ramifications of this are minor at best. Though I don't have SAM unlocked, I hope they don't nerf Fudo lest clearing PUG Wopket runs becomes exponentially more frustrating. If Fudo is nerfed though, it won't be the worst thing in the world since RDM isn't exactly hard to incorporate into Delve. It's merely a matter of keeping Ardor on SAM's.

Regardless, it's a good thing I swear by Chant du Cygne, Knights of Round, and Resolution.

[Smokenttp]

the reason i set bst as an exemple is because they said that the axe weapon skills would recive an smaller buff due to the bst pet skill chain update, and that kinda indirectly affected other jobs that use axe , that does not mean that bst is invited to anything or that any other job will bother to use axes anyway and this dagger ws nerf situation is a very similar, they will nerf the damage potential on all jobs that use dagger when the problem is not actually on the dagger ws itself but in two job abilities,this will actually do more harm then good (as the root of the problem will still be the same).

[Scooter]

It just burns me, they finally make a ws that makes a couple jobs relevant again and then they like "oh can't have that!" Thief and dancer had nothing really going for them in any of the new content. With the advent of chest drops this only made it even worse for thief. Dancer while very self sufficient brought next to nothing in the way of damage to be relevant, same with thief. Using sa/ta to get a fraction of the damage that say war or sam could put out made the job laughable for anything other then basic dynamis/salvage farming. Leave it alone SE.

[Aeromehl]

In the end, it really doesn't matter. SE stopped caring about this game a long time ago. All they want is money, and they get that by constantly changing which jobs people need to play and gear. "oh a new set of gear comes out completely replacing EVERYTHING i've done up until now". or "Let's give them weapon skill buffs so they'll level/gear another job... THEN TAKE IT AWAY" S.E.: "yes, we have them for another month at least mwuahahahaha". I use to love this game. Now I simply play it out of boredom. Please read this SE and understand, WE DO NOT WANT OTHER-JOB-BUFF-DEPENDENT weapon skills. Understand that? Got it?

[Zeargi]

While I'm sure many people that don't play THF will be happy if they do change those WS, but I for one will not be. People CAN get TP beforehand for things. Maybe not 100% of the time, but Meditate is open to ANYONE that subs SAM and The Icarus Wing is still an item in the game. THF requires specific placement, someone moves (Either Mob or another player) then those lovely numbers disappear quite quickly. Not to mention THF is a glass cannon, one major hit like that and if it isn't dead THF is going to die themselves, because capped evasion+ means nothing in the end-game. This spell isn't going to help anyone, it's just going to pigeon hole more people. As it already stands, A vast majority of people are so afraid to do things without a BRD, now they're going to have to have a BRD AND a RDM? This game has become so Cookie Cutter Strategy wise, that is disgusting... Rather than bring down something that will also hurt DNC, whom I rarely see now... Why not bring the others up to meet them. Where are BSTs? Yes, this SC helped them, but still not invited! Where are the SMNs? Why is that they have to sacrifice so much to even get close to the numbers that others do? Where are WARs? They're the weapons specialist! Why have they been so neglected? DRG, DRK, and PUP? There are more than just 6 jobs in this game....

[evanwimbish]

Even though rdm is one of my main, this is a very stupid update because it's going to limit my bards damage with rudras. Why not just increase the potency of other ws or add new weaponskills which take place. Why does SE quickly tAke good things away. (Embrava, 1spell blu job traits ect)


Why would you give ardor to a job which rarely is played in main party and expect everyone to use it?

Redmages are usually used x1 in an alliance IF so... Why not give ardor to bard (since all it really does is schertzo/march) or corsairs or even white mage or scholar! Having to put a redmage in the party and ardor the melee is only going to stress out a redmage because of the many other enfeebs or enhancements it has to cast.

SE is probably going to make this a 3 min spell , party (not alliance) (which probably won't accession )spell which in worse case scenario will need 2-3 rdm per alliance, and even if the spell is worth while it still won't make up for the 3 other jobs which are heavily played in alliances damage being nerfed


If it HAS to be nerfed, don't cut it down so drastically such with other content, try by 30% , I agree that 80k rudras were a bit high - however it's not like EVERYONE was exploiting the 80k Dmg. And the effort to S/T rudras wasn't always guaranteed anyways if the target moved or if ur soloing ect.

I think SE is probably concerned with dancers empy head effecting the march update! Which I was kinda looking forward to :(

[dasva]

Recognizes thf and sam are OP... nerfs daggers buffs sam. Not sure if trolling or it's aht urghan era sam love all over again. Whelp time to get onto the several other jobs capable of doing ws that are just as high or higher that are completely ignored and back to using thf just for th (ie almost never)

[Ethereal]

Fun while it lasted..

[V-1000]

This is totally messed up, Rudra is the only ws DNC has that even decent, i don't own a mythic nor will il be able anytime soon Pyrrhic is useless Exen is even worse, and now because of a few people complaining about their dd jobs not being able to spike dmg like we can SE will destroy not only THF but DNC and by extension BRD in the process. this is so not fair!!!! other dd jobs have been on top for years and no one cared but the second DNC & THF start to shine, a few envious people who cant share the top spot start complaining and SE decides to destroy the only few good ws a THF has? for DNC Rudra's is the only good WS if you don't own a mythic…. am i suppose to go back to Evisceration which is mediocre at best?? thats messed up! now in order to even do normal good dmg i will need to attach myself a RDM to my side in order to be consider for content again <-- BEYOND FURIOUS THIS IS BS

[Bigrob33]

Shouldn't we wait to see exactly what the adjustment is before pulling out the torches and pitchforks? I know SE at times seems to overreact and nerf stuff into oblivion, but I'd wait a bit longer until they post some actual details. Just my thoughts.

[V-1000]

By the time it happens it will be too late to object: : read the statement well RDM+ THF I Assume by extension any Dagger job can produce similar or even higher numbers then they do now meaning this nerf will be really bad unless you carry a pocket size RDM player/trust to whatever content you try. also when has a nerf ever been good? its always a job/ability killer.

[Protey]

Why would you give ardor to a job which rarely is played in main party and expect everyone to use it?

Redmages are usually used x1 in an alliance IF so... Why not give ardor to bard (since all it really does is schertzo/march) or corsairs or even white mage or scholar! Having to put a redmage in the party and ardor the melee is only going to stress out a redmage because of the many other enfeebs or enhancements it has to cast.(

Ardor is not a party only spell, rdm will not have to be in the main party.

[FrankReynolds]

Terrible Terrible terrible idea. Come up with a new mechanic for the spell instead of basing it on the number of hits and nerfing thf/dnc/brd. You guys have officially earned my undying hatred with this one. THF DNC and BRD are right where they need to be. Fix the other jobs.

[Alhanelem]

Rudra's is ridiculously OP and it needs the nerf. I don't know about those other ones, I never see them used. Some other magic WS can get pretty crazy too, though not as much as rudra's.


THF DNC and BRD are right where they need to be. Fix the other jobs.
No, dont know, and yes. But lets improve the WS that don't get used instead of keeping an OP WS OP. Any thief I've ever talked to ingame agrees its OP (and yes, they've been abusing it)

[FrankReynolds]

Rudra's is ridiculously OP and it needs the nerf. I don't know about those other ones, I never see them used. Some other magic WS can get pretty crazy too, though not as much as rudra's.


No, dont know, and yes. But lets improve the WS that don't get used instead of keeping an OP WS OP. Any thief I've ever talked to ingame agrees its OP (and yes, they've been abusing it)


How is it OP when other jobs are still out DDing the jobs that use it on a regular basis? You have to look at damage as a total. You can't just look at the WS number. I'm tired of seeing people complain about the spike damage. Spike damage is and always has been THfs saving grace. It's what the job is supposed to do. It has crap damage without it. THF and DNC are at the top right now, so some other jobs could use a slight boost, but we don't need to relegate THF and DNC back to being solo only jobs. I'm tired of playing SAM or MNK for everything. I can still bring those jobs to any event that I used to bring them to and nobody complains right now. But if they nerf Rudra's, THF is back to salvage and dynamis only and DNC is back to well... nothing really at all. And let's be honest. Without an RME update salvage and dynamis won't even be a thing for much longer.

And let's not ignore how stupid it is to make a job's usefulness depend completely on a single spell that they will almost never have cast on them.

[Zeargi]

Rudra's is ridiculously OP and it needs the nerf. I don't know about those other ones, I never see them used. Some other magic WS can get pretty crazy too, though not as much as rudra's.


No, dont know, and yes. But lets improve the WS that don't get used instead of keeping an OP WS OP. Any thief I've ever talked to ingame agrees its OP (and yes, they've been abusing it)


There's a small difference in being OP vs OP because of something else. That's like said you shouldn't use a Brew because it maxes out your stats. Rudra's is a sextuple hit WS. If all of them hit then yes it's going to do high damage, but just like any other Multi-hit, I've seen it also do 3-4k. THF is all about positioning, if people are dumb, then it doesn't do "OMGLEETDMG". For a change people are starting to work as a team again, using game mechanics that had almost been all but tossed aside. SAM can do equally fine with the crap ton of JA it has to augment WS/SC/Save TP. And yet nothing of theirs is being changed.

[Protey]

Without an RME update salvage and dynamis won't even be a thing for much longer.

salvage will always be a thing because of the utility of yagrush and carnwenhan.

[V-1000]

They all seem to forget besides the fact its a multi hit ws, its usually done at 300tp and both jobs needs SA+TA if on THF & Building Flourish and Clicmatic if on DNC to hit high numbers its not like THF or DNC are doing 20k+ ws at 100tp with no use of 1-2 abilities to boost them…..its a fair trade off to hit high numbers.

[Smokenttp]

actually rudra is a single hit ws (2 hits if dualwielding wich you probably will be anyway but the ftp (the sextuple damage multiplier) is not replicated on the 2 hit) and as stated before without any ja boosting rudras damage its not op at all and its actually on par with other strong ws like savage blade or even fudo(again without any job ability suport), as for the other ws it does give less damage then rudra but do get close enough (especially using the apropriate weapon for then) even shark bite actually can pull some good number with the apropriate ja setup nowadays.

[Rubeus]

I disagree with nerfing rudra's storm, mandalic stab, mercy stroke -- these WS are already tied uniquely as rewards for work done to get them. But we all know it depends on what the Japanese forums are saying. It's not like they care what the U.S. opinion is on the subject.

EDIT: I say this because the last time I recall having a poll in the forums where they "asked us what we thought" where it WASN'T a yes/no button poll -- that I can recall -- was a few years back during the "what beastmaster pet would you like? *Please note we cannot supersize your order and our shake machine is down." -- the US community had some really good ideas and was largely ignored.

tl;dr: PLEASE implement discussions like this in the form of button-able polls that you have to log-in to the forums in order to participate in. With a comments section for alternative ideas. That way the whole gets represented, not just the community the native developers can largely HAVE a discussion with. Besides, it would be nice to see Bayohne around more anyway.

[Ulth]

There's a small difference in being OP vs OP because of something else. That's like said you shouldn't use a Brew because it maxes out your stats. Rudra's is a sextuple hit WS. If all of them hit then yes it's going to do high damage, but just like any other Multi-hit, I've seen it also do 3-4k. THF is all about positioning, if people are dumb, then it doesn't do "OMGLEETDMG". For a change people are starting to work as a team again, using game mechanics that had almost been all but tossed aside. SAM can do equally fine with the crap ton of JA it has to augment WS/SC/Save TP. And yet nothing of theirs is being changed.

Umm... that's not how Rudra's storm works (http://i.lvme.me/v8ccqht.jpg). It has a multiplier based on tp. That is why it is good for sneak/trick/climactic. You use it with one of those abilities when you have around 2000tp so the multiplier is 15, so the damage of your main hit gets multiplied by 15, then that damage gets adjusted for being a crit.

Anyway I'm not optimistic about this adjustment. Since mandalic stab, mercy stroke, and shark bite are all pretty bad maybe those will actually get a boost. But again dagger damage isn't actually that good. Thief and dancer need weapons skills with high ftps because the base damage of daggers is much lower. Other one hand jobs deal with this with multi hit weapon skills like cdc, but multi hit weaponskills don't benefit from our signature job abilities for dealing damage as only the first hit in a round is crited.

Also people seem to be forgetting that these are not done at 1000tp and are comparing our ws at 2000tp and upset that when we use one with twice as much tp it does twice as much damage as theirs. For years thieves have been complaining about how long sneak attack timers are because you would get 1000tp before the timer was up. Now that we have a weaponskill that synergies with holding onto our tp for one big guaranteed hit It actually works well, and they want to ruin that...

And the last thing I should mention is with rudra's nerfed wtf are we supposed to use when we are solo? None of the other dagger weaponskills are worth using. Am I just supposed to white damage my way through salvage?

[Ramzi]

My SAM on a Wopket run can get enough TP to WS before the previous Fudo animation even finishes... constantly, the whole fight. Each Fudo does 4-8k. THF can spike a WS twice per minute. Which is OP again? C'mon SE... like others have said, THF weaponskills are where they should be. Buff the other jobs to bring them up to THF levels, don't nerf THF.

[Alhanelem]

How is it OP when other jobs are still out DDing the jobs that use it on a regular basis? You have to look at damage as a total.If you ask me, those people who aren't doing higher total damage when they're busting out 5 digit rudras all the time on everyday stuff (and in some circumstances, close to 6) and high 4s against the stronger stuff must be doing something wrong if their total damage is lower. I've been through multiple D mission fights where we're chugging along slowly and then a massive chunk of the mob's HP just vanishes.

I'm hopeful however that they won't go too far and be cautious with the adjustment instead of flat out nerfing it into the ground, because THF deserve their place in the party for more than just TH.



And the last thing I should mention is with rudra's nerfed wtf are we supposed to use when we are solo? None of the other dagger weaponskills are worth usingWell perception is everything. Are they not worth using because Rudra's is a thing or are they genuinely out of balance? They could buff other dagger WS at the same time.

[Kensagaku]

Even if they nerf Rudra's (which I'm not for or against; I don't play dagger-wielding jobs as a main so I don't have a strong opinion), why are they nerfing Mandalic Stab, Mercy Stroke, and Shark Bite? None of them are particularly broken from what I've seen. Sure, some of them can put out decent stacked damage, but they're nowhere in the field of Rudra's. If SE is so determined to nerf, give Rudra's a minor bat rather than a full-out nerf and leave the other WS alone.

[Zeargi]

Umm... that's not how Rudra's storm works (http://i.lvme.me/v8ccqht.jpg). It has a multiplier based on tp. That is why it is good for sneak/trick/climactic. You use it with one of those abilities when you have around 2000tp so the multiplier is 15, so the damage of your main hit gets multiplied by 15, then that damage gets adjusted for being a crit.

Anyway I'm not optimistic about this adjustment. Since mandalic stab, mercy stroke, and shark bite are all pretty bad maybe those will actually get a boost. But again dagger damage isn't actually that good. Thief and dancer need weapons skills with high ftps because the base damage of daggers is much lower. Other one hand jobs deal with this with multi hit weapon skills like cdc, but multi hit weaponskills don't benefit from our signature job abilities for dealing damage as only the first hit in a round is crited.

My apologizes, I miss read the games description. I saw the Sextuple DMG, and perceived it as a Mutlihit much like Shattersouls or Predator Claws.. Either way, I'm on your side. I'm not gonna lie and say I know everything term that's been added.

[Ladynamine]

Hail, adventurers! Matsui here with an update for you.

I would like to inform you that, based on your feedback, we have begun to consider balance adjustments for melee jobs, specifically the thief and samurai, in the March version update.

We are currently looking at adjusting balance in the following two ways:



I would like to share with you the thought process behind these adjustments.


The addition of Ardor
In our preview of job adjustments several days prior, we made mention of a new magic spell known as “Ardor.” We elected to add this spell in order to decrease the gaps in damage dealt between the various melee jobs.

As noted in that topic, Ardor increases skillchain damage based on the number of successful melee hits up until the time the weapon skill is activated.

Jobs that often go for long periods of time without using weapon skills will receive stronger bonuses, thereby decreasing the damage gap that currently exists.



The adjustment of certain dagger weapon skills
One topic keeps popping up where we hear players discussing the thief: skillchain damage when using the weapon skills Sneak Attack and Trick Attack

These skills are particularly effective in content such as Wanted battles, where it‘s possible for thieves to accumulate TP in advance and when combat ends in a short period of time, but we believe that this is one of the job’s strengths.

Not all content enables players to accumulate TP in advance the way Wanted battles do, and other melee classes are competitive with thieves in extended combat scenarios.

As such, we wish to avoid adjusting Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, as doing so would be tantamount to destroying part of the thief job’s identity.

However, in its current state thief damage output is on par with or even surpasses that of other melee jobs even in long duration combat, and upon looking at melee jobs as a whole, we cannot deny that thieves are located at the top of the charts in a wide variety of content.

Ardor has an incredibly strong synergy with thieves, who autoattack quite frequently, and thus we expect that their skillchain damage would increase to numbers even higher than they currently are. As such, we believe it necessary to somewhat reduce the potency or certain dagger weaponskills in order to maintain balance with other jobs.

We are currently considering adjusting the following four weaponskills.



These adjustments are meant to normalize damage between melee jobs, and there are some adjustments that can be viewed as nerfs when taken on the individual job level, so we wished to communicate these details to you in advance as we continue to thoroughly discuss this matter.


Because you know:

It's NERF or Nothin'!

Seriously, You are taking away DNC's 1 good ws that can do decent damage. But why am I not suprised.

[Scooter]

Thf and Dnc have always been at the lower end of the dd pool, never getting invites to anything except for thf when th was needed. Now they are useful jobs that actually get invites and your gonna nerf them back into non existence? Leave it alone, for 12 years thf has been crapped on by this game and dnc for what 6-7? They are finally usable. If your thf is beating your sam then I got some bad news about your sam.

[Crevox]

I said it before, I'll say it again. Rudra's needed a nerf.

Thank you SE.

[Ulth]

Well perception is everything. Are they not worth using because Rudra's is a thing or are they genuinely out of balance? They could buff other dagger WS at the same time.

They aren't worth using because the amount of damage done while just auto attacking during the time is about the same, unless you get really lucky with crits on evisceration. Why do you think you never see thieves using anything other than Rudra's? There is a reason for it.

[Falseliberty]

WHY IS MERCY STROKE AND MANDALIC STAB GETTING NERFED...!?!
I'm gonna go to a furniture store today and flip every dam table in the joint then play homeless bum homerun derby.


P.S. then steal all the polar bears and hide all the maple syrup in canada

P.S.S ME NO LIKE THING SE... to everyone else happy friday

[Ulth]

You know what would be a good thing? If they actually told us what their plans for the ftp was before they have the update. Then we could idk maybe give them some sort of feed back on what is too high and what is too low instead of causing a panic and rioting.

[JeanPaul]

While I'd agree there's certainly a gap between the damage WSs can do, it seems to me the issue for the development team is really skillchain damage, something that heavily favors jobs like SAM (in frequency) and THF (in potency). One way to manage this would be to temporarily reduce the skillchain damage for a weaponskill as it is used repeatedly in a skillchain.

Example: A Samurai uses Tachi: Fudo alone to make Light skillchains repeatedly. While the first skillchain would do full damage, repeated skillchains using Fudo would grow weaker, gradually restoring to their full damage over time if the SAM alters his strategy. During this time, the SAM would probably want to use other weaponskills for their skillchain damage, or instead open a skillchain for another player using a different weapon altogether.

The potency/duration of this effect could be affected by the level of the skillchain, and how many weaponskills were used in conjunction. As such, a low level skillchain consisting of 2 weaponskills would not hinder the long-term skillchain damage as heavily as a 6-step skillchain that closes with a powerful Rudra's Storm and Darkness. This would not only increase the strategic value of other weaponskills, but encourages teamwork with other jobs as well, such as WAR or DRK who have a variety of weapon and skillchain options.

[Jsmooth]

They said THF and SAM in the opening statement, but never mentioned SAM again????? What is SE going to do to make other 2h dd jobs on par with SAM. ( war,drk,drg ).


They need to close the gap on 2h jobs. They need to discuss what they are doing about SAM, not just THF.

[Jebas]

Little early for April Fools isn't it?

[geekgirl101]

Slow claps to all the SAMs who cried that THFs were doing higher damage than they were. Waiting now to hear SAMs start crying how mages can nuke mobs to death with tier 1 spells with no time delay or mana spent and begging for SE to throw the nerf bat at them.

[dasva]

Slow claps to all the SAMs who cried that THFs were doing higher damage than they were. Waiting now to hear SAMs start crying how mages can nuke mobs to death with tier 1 spells with no time delay or mana spent and begging for SE to throw the nerf bat at them.

The sad part was sam was still keeping up with thf... now sounds like thf will basically just use evisceration assuming it ever gets used.

I'm having a really hard time understand nerfing the other ws as well. Mandalic is miles behind rudra's to the point where even with mythic it isn't as much dmg as rudra's. Mercy stroke with relic (which isn't exactly optimal dagger to use) is merely on par with some decent 2hd weaponskills at 1000 tp... but gains nothing as you gain tp. And sharkbite even at 3000 tp will get smashed by pretty much any other ws that anyone uses right now at 1000 tp

[Ataraxia]

[QUOTE=Akihiko_Matsui;542969]Hail, adventurers! Matsui here with an update for you.

I would like to inform you that, based on your feedback, we have begun to consider balance adjustments for melee jobs, specifically the thief and samurai, in the March version update.


Important message for Akihiko_Matsui I know this is a little late but please reconsider and do more testing. If you bring down dagger weapon skill than you are making sword, axe and katana on top of the list. I don't think it's a good idea to Nerf thief weapon skill because right now the job is very popular and many people love to play thief. Thief can't clear content without the help of Bard and White Mage and it is the same for all other melee job. The adjustment to weapon skills that need major improvement are shark bit and aeolian edge along with other elemental weapon skills for sword, axe, katana, club, great axe, great sword, and staff.


I am really concern about Ardor spell because this will make Rdm getting all the attention to every content and that is not good. I know SA and TA make thief a good damage dealer but that's just how the job works.

Improve accuracy of melee and weapon skill damage:

Monk
Samurai
Dark Knight
Warrior
Dragoon
Rune Fencer


I say NO to Ardor spell! Please let's not take a step backward for FFXI future with nerf but a step going forward and making it better allowing other job to close the cap.

Yes! To:

Regen III and IV spell for Red Mage and Paladin.
Cure III and IV spell for Run Fencer.
Regen spell duration double for White Mage Only.
Sch, Blm, Geo, Run, PLd have their own haste spell since there is haste II now.

[Ataraxia]

The sad part was sam was still keeping up with thf... now sounds like thf will basically just use evisceration assuming it ever gets used.

I'm having a really hard time understand nerfing the other ws as well. Mandalic is miles behind rudra's to the point where even with mythic it isn't as much dmg as rudra's. Mercy stroke with relic (which isn't exactly optimal dagger to use) is merely on par with some decent 2hd weaponskills at 1000 tp... but gains nothing as you gain tp. And sharkbite even at 3000 tp will get smashed by pretty much any other ws that anyone uses right now at 1000 tp

I guess you are correct about that because I don't think they compare the damage by spamming weapon skills at 1000 tp but they judge it because it's SATA + 3000 TP. Shark Bite is a fail weapon skill and need improvement not Nerf. People judge Thief too soon because they are really good at closing weapon skill chain damage and I thought that was the whole point of FFXI was to work as a team / save TP to perform weapon skills.

[Ulth]

I guess you are correct about that because I don't think they compare the damage by spamming weapon skills at 1000 tp but they judge it because it's SATA + 3000 TP. Shark Bite is a fail weapon skill and need improvement not Nerf. People judge Thief too soon because they are really good at closing weapon skill chain damage and I thought that was the whole point of FFXI was to work as a team / save TP to perform weapon skills.

I know right? I was having so much fun with my ninja friend. He would open with blade ten, I would make darkness with my rudra's and because he got so much tp from the extra shuriken attacks he would have enough tp to close with blade hi. It was perfect mission accomplished, nin and thf were both fun to play.

[Janethetaru]

Bite me. Nerfing rudra's is a terrible idea. For the first time thf and dnc aren't laughed at and are actually considered DD, especially DNC. I'm for leveling the playing field, but how about you just buff the 2h weapon skills? I don't care if you nerf sneak attack and trick attack effects to rudra's storm, but unstacked ws should remain the same. The rudra's buff was a bigger boon to DNC and BRD than to THF. THF was already good, and DNC was laughed at. DNC is competitive now, and suddenly because a few haters complained you want to screw that all up? I don't think so.

[Alhanelem]

Why do you think you never see thieves using anything other than Rudra's? There is a reason for it.
Because it's OP? If there's an obvious always best option, of course everyone is going to use it. But if the other WS are as bad as you say, then they need help.

[Lyandra]

Ardor is not a party only spell, rdm will not have to be in the main party.

Actually that may not be the case, according to S-E's post regarding Ardor:


• Ardor (RDM Lv.64, affects a single ally)

The wording of "ally" indicates it can't be cast on just anyone, such as any player outside of your party, just like Erase. And with that being the case, it also can't be cast across alliances, just like Erase. That said, it's pretty much guaranteed it will be within your own party only.

(Unless it has some weird job-specific mechanics like SCH and Regen spells, then it could be cast across alliances. But it's just speculation at this point - until the spell is released, there's no way to state for fact it is or is not party-exclusive.) :p

[Crevox]

I don't think so.

I think so, cause it's happening.

Regardless of SATA, Rudra's is too strong. It's silly how grossly OP it is compared to every other weaponskill in the game.

This needed a nerf, and I'm glad SE realized it and still has it in them to nerf things that are OP.


Regen III and IV spell for Red Mage and Paladin.
Cure III and IV spell for Run Fencer.
Regen spell duration double for White Mage Only.
Sch, Blm, Geo, Run, PLd have their own haste spell since there is haste II now.

You need to stop making suggestions. This is the worst list of spell adjustment suggestions I've ever seen.


I am really concern about Ardor spell because this will make Rdm getting all the attention to every content and that is not good.

Heaven forbid Red Mage be a desirable job.

90% of the people in this thread have little to no idea of the balance of the game right now in end game, or across all the jobs. I would wager that most of them do not even do Delve, high level Incursion, or D/VD battlefields, yet are trying to convince the development team that they know better about the balance of the game than the devs do. The bad spell suggestions above are a good example, but a lot of the posts here are good too.

[Selindrile]

salvage will always be a thing because of the utility of yagrush and carnwenhan.

Then so will Dyna for Aegis/Gjaller, but at the same time, currency prices are crashing, Alex prices are going up (but that's more because of the bannings thus lower supply than higher demand)

[Celoria]

I think so, cause it's happening.

Regardless of SATA, Rudra's is too strong. It's silly how grossly OP it is compared to every other weaponskill in the game.

This needed a nerf, and I'm glad SE realized it and still has it in them to nerf things that are OP.



You need to stop making suggestions. This is the worst list of spell adjustment suggestions I've ever seen.



Heaven forbid Red Mage be a desirable job.

90% of the people in this thread have little to no idea of the balance of the game right now in end game, or across all the jobs. I would wager that most of them do not even do Delve, high level Incursion, or D/VD battlefields, yet are trying to convince the development team that they know better about the balance of the game than the devs do. The bad spell suggestions above are a good example, but a lot of the posts here are good too.

Except SE will just take yet another rdm only spell and give it to smn and geo somehow.

Rdm is nothing but a stun whore and haste/flurry bitch. Even with this new spell all SE has done is add another single spell to rdm rotation. If rdm is to be a desirable job again SE needs to fix the enfeebling magic. Not make B.S. spells like Ardor and nerf rudra because sam's are crying. (I actually know koga sams that actually quit playing the game because of Rudra.)

Simple bridge the gap would be to slightly reduce the bonus that SA/TA and rudra get and beef up other 2hand ws. like reso.... Get rid of that trash -15% attk on ws. Beef up war again, bring ukko back to normal it would fit the game now. Of course it didn't then.

The only thing this update is going to do is make it "sam only" shouts all over again. At least right now I see shouts for any DD, thf mostly but anything is taken with at least 1 thf in pt.

[dasva]

I guess you are correct about that because I don't think they compare the damage by spamming weapon skills at 1000 tp but they judge it because it's SATA + 3000 TP. Shark Bite is a fail weapon skill and need improvement not Nerf. People judge Thief too soon because they are really good at closing weapon skill chain damage and I thought that was the whole point of FFXI was to work as a team / save TP to perform weapon skills.

The real funny part? Sharkbite right now is already worse than rudra's was pre buff... ya know back when no one cared about it.

[dasva]

I think so, cause it's happening.

Regardless of SATA, Rudra's is too strong. It's silly how grossly OP it is compared to every other weaponskill in the game.

This needed a nerf, and I'm glad SE realized it and still has it in them to nerf things that are OP.
And yet sams were still keeping up and yet I can hit just as high ws dmg with several other ws

[Selindrile]

Also did nobody notice:

“Ardor.” We elected to add this spell in order to decrease the gaps in damage dealt between the various melee jobs.

Makes 0 sense logically.

"In order to decrease the gaps in damage dealt across jobs, we decided to add a spell to a non-melee job that won't be there in all situations, and that when they are, they will most likely put the jobs that are currently on top further on top. (becuase these are the main skillchainers in current content, due to weaponskill and skillchain distributions)."

And they're nerfing Rudra's in part because of how it would interact with Ardor, instead of this, maybe try not adding Ardor, giving Rdm another spell, and reevaluating how other DD jobs work.

[Crevox]

Except SE will just take yet another rdm only spell and give it to smn and geo somehow.

Maybe, but this is an assumption. The only spell RDM got unique and lost to someone else was SMN, but both RDM and Garuda have always been the best hasters. GEO's haste is no different than march in reality, and Flurry II remains a RDM only thing.


If rdm is to be a desirable job again SE needs to fix the enfeebling magic. Not make B.S. spells like Ardor and nerf rudra because sam's are crying.

I wouldn't say Ardor is B.S., considering it sounds like a powerful buff.

Enfeebling Magic is a bit more potent than most people believe or would have you believe. Slow II and Paralyze II are very crippling, and Slow II stacks with Elegy. Addle is a very strong debuff, Distract II and Frazzle II are also huge in affecting accuracy, etc. The problem is just these things are often overlooked, people do not gear properly for them/even use them as RDM, and people would rather have another buffer. Ardor will help RDM a lot, in addition to the Blind/Poison adjustments, job point categories, etc.

If people would stop being potato and start using the nukes available to them, RDM can also do some pretty good damage, on top of all the support they're bringing, but for some reason people are afraid of casting nukes on monsters.


"sam only" shouts all over again.

Except SAM is getting nerfed too, and it hasn't been that way for a while. A lot of DD jobs are viable now, whether or not the community realizes it. SE has been doing a great job of balancing things with the new gear, augments, job points, gifts, and other changes. The only real big difference that is painfully obvious is skillchain damage. Regardless of that, all content in the game can be cleared without Samurais.


thf mostly but anything is taken with at least 1 thf in pt.

Yeah, no. People bandwagoned onto THF because Rudra's became OP, and now it's getting nerfed, and everyone is flipping out about it. People should learn to just play the jobs they want to play instead of trying to jump onto whatever is the most OP.

[Celoria]

And yet sams were still keeping up and yet I can hit just as high ws dmg with several other ws

I admit SA/TARudra is strong as hell and needed something, however if you are keeping up with thf, then you play with some trash thf's. Unstacked Kolento and I were popping 15k-20k Rudra everywhere from lolpandwarden, to yorcia skirmish, delve, high tier bcnm and incursions


Maybe, but this is an assumption. The only spell RDM got unique and lost to someone else was SMN, but both RDM and Garuda have always been the best hasters. GEO's haste is no different than march in reality, and Flurry II remains a RDM only thing.



I wouldn't say Ardor is B.S., considering it sounds like a powerful buff.

Enfeebling Magic is a bit more potent than most people believe or would have you believe. Slow II and Paralyze II are very crippling, and Slow II stacks with Elegy. Addle is a very strong debuff, Distract II and Frazzle II are also huge in affecting accuracy, etc. The problem is just these things are often overlooked, people do not gear properly for them/even use them as RDM, and people would rather have another buffer. Ardor will help RDM a lot, in addition to the Blind/Poison adjustments, job point categories, etc. If people would stop being potato and start using the nukes available to them, RDM can do some pretty good damage, on top of all the support they're bringing, for some reason people are afraid of casting nukes on monsters.



Except SAM is getting nerfed too, and it hasn't been that way for a while. A lot of DD jobs are viable now, whether or not the community realizes it. SE has been doing a great job of balancing things with the new gear, augments, job points, gifts, and other changes. The only real big difference that is painfully obvious is skillchain damage. Regardless of that, all content in the game can be cleared without Samurais.



Yeah, no. People bandwagoned onto THF because Rudra's became OP, and now it's getting nerfed, and everyone is flipping out about it. People should learn to just play the jobs they want to play instead of trying to jump onto whatever is the most OP.

Reason I say Ardor is B.S. is because it just keeps rdm a rotation whore and doesn't really help rdm best category, enfeebling magic.


I am a rdm, I have all the enfeeble gear you could want, very rarely will those enfeebles do more than just land on an nm. I think one time I saw para II proc more than 4 times before it wore off in yorcia delve. Whenever I endgame on rdm, I drop every debuff I own on anything we fight, yes it helps some, but not enough. 9:10 times you won't see a notiable difference.

If sam is getting nerfed as well let me be the first to say, "Hallelujah!" I much rather drk than any other DD job. Why a 224 dmg weapon is even in the same ballpark as a 268+30/40 dmg and acc/attk +DA is beyond me. (Then again 115 dmg daggers trash everything.) Let me not even start on scythe weapons and ws.

As for thf being OP and people bandwagon, yes that is true, however the people that are freaking out the most are the ones that were thf long before thf was a DD. The bandwagon thf's have no validity to anything they cry about in my opinion. BUT! I repeat, if you take one decent thf to delve that is pretty much the only DD you need. Hell you can take a whm/nin hexa strike as long as that thf can SA/TA you will have plenty of DD for the run. (Aside Bird and Tiger)

[Zeargi]

90% of the people in this thread have little to no idea of the balance of the game right now in end game, or across all the jobs. I would wager that most of them do not even do Delve, high level Incursion, or D/VD battlefields, yet are trying to convince the development team that they know better about the balance of the game than the devs do. The bad spell suggestions above are a good example, but a lot of the posts here are good too.

You really believe that this is the only thing out of balance? When People for Delve have to stun-lock crap because just 1 TP move, just 1 can end a run? Or that EVERYTHING 'requires' a BRD or it can't be done. There is hardly anything balanced about this game. WAR was the original tank, now it's next to impossible to use it because it can't survive. We have a 'Magical Tank,' but still won't get invited instead of PLD. We had a 'Blink Tank' but that went out the door because EVERYTHING AoEs. We have SMN, GEO, and COR, but do they get invited, usually not. DRG, DRK, BST, or PUP over SAM, MNK, or RNG, not a chance. All people see is this big number from stacking abilities and then suddenly people start this horrible idea that THF can't do that. I enjoy partying with THFs as my SMN because I can contribute to help them. SAM just goes bat S*** crazy with WS, I mean look at the Gilgamesh Trust. But this game was horrible out of balance LONG before this Rudra's Storm WS upgrade. I stand by what I said, rather than bring Rudra's down, bring the others up to meet it. These are 'Legendary WS' and they should be badass, They're birthed from Weapons that are suppose to be the highest ranking weapons of their class.

[Crevox]

You really believe that this is the only thing out of balance?

No. Did I ever say that? No, I didn't. But hey, I'm glad they're nerfing the biggest outlier.


When People for Delve have to stun-lock crap because just 1 TP move, just 1 can end a run?

Some people do this, sure, but it is by no means required.

The only boss this is done on is Tojil, by the way, and that is because of Incinerating Lahar which inflicts Weakness. You can survive this without stunning it, however for pug groups, preventing it from happening is the safest strategy.

Remember when I said that people who don't even do Delve or understand it are trying to suggest balance changes? I think that's you right now.


Or that EVERYTHING 'requires' a BRD or it can't be done.

BRD is an extremely powerful support, and the community acknowledges this. In all reality, haste is just such a powerful buff, that capping haste from buff sources (magic haste) is extremely useful, on top of the MP refresh it provides to the healer with ballads, enfeebles, extra healing/erases, etc. The main reason BRD is brought to anything is because of March and Lullaby, but everything else BRD does is also fantastic.

Could you go without a BRD? Sure, but it would be a bad idea in many cases, because you'd be missing out on all that extra haste. GEO works instead of BRD now too, though, people are just slow to catch on and people have a hard time learning how to play GEO for some reason.


We have a 'Magical Tank,' but still won't get invited instead of PLD.

Why do you keep blaming the game for what is the community's fault? RUN can tank everything in the game except the most difficult content. However, VERY few people play RUN, and when they do, they often do a very bad job at it. It's a much harder job to play than Paladin. Thus, people don't even bother shouting for RUN, because:

1. It's very unlikely there's even going to be one that wants to join as a RUN
2. If it does want to join, it's probably not geared or doesn't know how to play the job properly
3. It just introduces a huge risk because of the two above points

Besides that, PLD is just often stronger in general; certainly not required to be stronger in most cases, but still.


We had a 'Blink Tank' but that went out the door because EVERYTHING AoEs.

You're correct, NIN could use some buffs in this department, or content needs to be adjusted to stop eating so many shadows. SE has already acknowledged this and implemented a lot of new content (Unity NMs, maybe vagary) where Ninjas could tank much more comfortably. However, again, do you see any Ninjas? Because I don't see anyone playing Ninjas. They can DD pretty well, even better if SE decides to fix Blade: Kamu like they said they were going to recently, it's just that people don't want to play it because it's not OP THF Rudras/people don't like Ninja.


We have SMN, GEO, and COR, but do they get invited, usually not.

COR and GEO are used in tons of content; COR is not used a replacement to BRD due to lack of lullaby and hastes. GEO is extremely powerful, but there is still a lack of people playing it, and a lot of people do quite poorly at it. I've invited many random GEOs, and none of them nuke or enfeeble, and even though I tell them exactly what buffs/debuffs I desire, they have a hard time doing it for some reason.

SMN is getting buffs, but is actually a decent buffing job now. They just have a hefty gear requirement (in addition to a lot of swapping around gear required) and are a bit unorthodox to play with buff/favor juggling, but the buffs we're getting is actually helping that. I just wish some of their weaker buffs would scale up a bit better (Noctoshield, Shining Ruby, etc).

Regardless of all these things, and all that you've stated, Rudra's was still overpowered, and still needed a nerf.

[dasva]

I admit SA/TARudra is strong as hell and needed something, however if you are keeping up with thf, then you play with some trash thf's. Unstacked Kolento and I were popping 15k-20k Rudra everywhere from lolpandwarden, to yorcia skirmish, delve, high tier bcnm and incursions

Or maybe you are playing with trash sams and apparently only go in super buffed? Those numbers are far from typical of typical thfs. 20k unstacked on non piercing weak stuff is ridiculously high even assuming really good sets and capped pdif and 3000 tp. And congratulations in the time it took you to get that a good sam just did a 5 step skillchain for more. Which brings me to a point I've made before... the ws wasn't meant to be used with capped pdif as the jobs that get it aren't ones that do that easily. The only time/reason thfs are topping out like that are because of ridiculous overbuffing that completely nullifies the inherent greater attack most 2hders get.

A better solution would be to make those things matter again. Maybe address how OP Geo is. And again if I got the right buffs/debuffs I can hit even higher dmgs with at least 4 different ws of the top of my head. 1 or 2 of which I believe I can self lvl 3 without having to /sam.

[dasva]

Except SAM is getting nerfed too, and it hasn't been that way for a while.
Except nothing SE posted talked about a nerf for sam...

[Crevox]

Except nothing SE posted talked about a nerf for sam...


we have begun to consider balance adjustments for melee jobs, specifically the thief and samurai, in the March version update.

They talked about the dagger changes, yeah, but they simply didn't say what they were doing to SAM yet. They clearly are "considering" doing something, we just don't know what it is yet.

[PlumbGame]

I feel the direction SE is going with the rudras nerf wasn't directly because they currently feel rudras is too OP, but given the power behind closing a darkness in the update with ardor will make content designed around people really now just using thiefs only for closing darkness. I can't say for certainty but that seems to be the implications of the community reps response. I think there is many variables not being looked at. Any serious player in this game knows how powerful thief currently is, BUT, they also know that thief isn't raining superior to ALL dds. Along what the community rep pointed out, it usually seems OP given the health pool of certain mobs being obliterated by a rudras making darkness. On content though that is actually relevant that other jobs have more up time, you would see more equalization among a few DDs. The issue now arises because they are balancing content around ardor. Why are they using 1 spell a job gets to balance our DD jobs? It's a poor way to balance. Not only are people still not going to bring a rdm to everything, even if they did, the average player base doesn't have the capacity to coordinate skillchains or should be required (considering the direction of the game) of them to take advantage of ardor on a thief, really resulting in nerf to the job overall, though I don't think that was the original intention. SE seems to want us to bring rdms and wants us to also SC, which would probably keep us at the same level, but again, unrealistic to expect from everyone.

Ardor needs to be adjusted, or skillchain damage needs to be adjusted. The issue isn't rudras itself and created a lot more versatility in end game content which I think might phase thf out. I'm not super worried, especially since it hit me the adjustments could be towards the ftp at 2k+ tp since given the little info we know about ardors, thiefs AAing to 3k tp and closing darkness left and right is probably what is overpowered. If they don't want jobs doing as much SC damage and don't want to nerf SCs because of the nerf that would be to sam, nerf SCs and give sam bigger SC bonuses.

Anyways, please reconsider the nerf to rudras and find other alternatives (which I would personally suggest buffing other DD jobs).

[dasva]

They talked about the dagger changes, yeah, but they simply didn't say what they were doing to SAM yet. They clearly are "considering" doing something, we just don't know what it is yet.

Considering something doesn't mean doing something. Not that long ago they were also considering adjusting 2hd weapons to balance with 1hd and we are seeing how that played out... for all you know ardor is there answer in balancing sam as laughable as that is

[Crevox]

I agree that balancing the other melee jobs around a spell is kind of silly, and maybe they should reconsider that part, but it still doesn't change the fact that Rudra's Storm did too much damage.


The issue isn't rudras itself and created a lot more versatility in end game content which I think might phase thf out.

There was no "versatility." Everyone started playing THF because Rudra's Storm was overpowered. Now it's getting nerfed. Yay.


(which I would personally suggest buffing other DD jobs).

I would rather not all the content in the game be melted like Rudra's Storm is doing to it right now. Then you're gonna say "but but but Samurai is strong too!" and my response is relax, they said they were adjusting Samurai as well.


Considering something doesn't mean doing something. Not that long ago they were also considering adjusting 2hd weapons to balance with 1hd and we are seeing how that played out... for all you know ardor is there answer in balancing sam as laughable as that is

You're right, and by your logic, they might not even nerf Rudra's. They are "considering" those dagger changes just like they are "considering" SAM changes.


Not that long ago they were also considering adjusting 2hd weapons to balance 1hd

Source? Also, they did buff 2 handed weapons, considering the huge damage augments they get from skirmish.

[Zeargi]

Some people do this, sure, but it is by no means required.

The only boss this is done on is Tojil, by the way, and that is because of Incinerating Lahar which inflicts Weakness. You can survive this without stunning it, however for pug groups, preventing it from happening is the safest strategy.

Remember when I said that people who don't even do Delve or understand it are trying to suggest balance changes? I think that's you right now.

Could you go without a BRD? Sure, but it would be a bad idea in many cases, because you'd be missing out on all that extra haste.

Why do you keep blaming the game for what is the community's fault? RUN can tank everything in the game except the most difficult content.

Besides that, PLD is just often stronger in general; certainly not required to be stronger in most cases, but still.



You're correct, NIN could use some buffs in this department, or content needs to be adjusted to stop eating so many shadows. SE has already acknowledged this and implemented a lot of new content (Unity NMs, maybe vagary) where Ninjas could tank much more comfortably. However, again, do you see any Ninjas? Because I don't see anyone playing Ninjas. They can DD pretty well, even better if SE decides to fix Blade: Hi like they said they were going to recently


COR and GEO are used in tons of content; COR is not used a replacement to BRD due to lack of lullaby and hastes. GEO is extremely powerful, but there is still a lack of people playing it, and a lot of people do quite poorly at it. I've invited many random GEOs, and none of them nuke or enfeeble, and even though I tell them exactly what buffs/debuffs I desire, they have a hard time doing it for some reason.

SMN is getting buffs, but is actually a decent buffing job now. They just have a hefty gear requirement (in addition to a lot of swapping around gear required) and are a bit unorthodox to play with buff/favor juggling, but the buffs we're getting is actually helping that.

You say I keep blaming the community and that's partly true, but not entirely. Yes, I've done delve. I've done Tojil, Dakuwaqa, and Muyingwa, still haven't won, but that's usually from timing out. I know most of the bosses game mechanics that I can find (Delve 2 Mobs have little info posted for some reason) It's easy to read up on them, but what good is reading going to do when there's nothing you can do to compare to another job? You don't see Ninjas any where? (They're doing their job right then, but jokes aside.) Could it be not because people don't want to play them, but because they CAN'T play them. The general mechanic for a job that designed to avoid damage is Broken as hell, and SE knows this. So why play something that can't be used to it's greatest potential. PUP, it has the equal output as MNK. They CAN deal great Damage, but MNK wins out because it has more HP. COR, it can sleep things, it has Light shot, but can use it twice, but because their dice roll doesn't actually 'haste' they get the shaft most of time. SMN is the Master of Crowd Control when it come to Mobs that Don't share enmity. Even when comes to buffs, the only thing that SMN can't give is decent ACC+. RUN is somewhat difficult, I'll give you that, but players that ACTUALLY play don't get that chance, because as YOU SAID: "except in the most difficult content"... Which is 80% of the end-game they can't handle that. This stupid spell isn't going to do ANYTHING to help these other jobs that need help. and Nerfing Rudra's is going to kill people that want to play DNC. This game as 22 jobs, and more than half of them can't do things from peoples stubbornness, lacking capacity, or from just lack of survivability.

[PlumbGame]

I agree that balancing the other melee jobs around a spell is kind of silly, and maybe they should reconsider that part, but it still doesn't change the fact that Rudra's Storm did too much damage.



There was no "versatility." Everyone started playing THF because Rudra's Storm was overpowered. Now it's getting nerfed. Yay.



I would rather not all the content in the game be melted like Rudra's Storm is doing to it right now. Then you're gonna say "but but but Samurai is strong too!" and my response is relax, they said they were adjusting Samurai as well.



You're right, and by your logic, they might not even nerf Rudra's. They are "considering" those dagger changes just like they are "considering" SAM changes.



Source? Also, they did buff 2 handed weapons, considering the huge damage augments they get from skirmish.

I think you are quoting multiple people in one response without who you are quoting and it is quite confusing. I don't know if we are playing the same game, but I have never, not once, since the update done anything that was all thiefs (granted I play with people who excel to the self-proclaimed OP rudras on other jobs). I understand the benefits again of it on something like wanted, which was already even pointed out on the communities rep to blowing stuff like that up, but when you do actual end game content where things don't die in 5s whether you are a thief or not, you will see other jobs like blu and dnc and sam etc equally parsing. Again, this is all based solely you aren't playing with bad players, because lets face it, some people obviously play jobs bad. I've watched thiefs who do 30k+ rudras parse under almost all other DDs in the end of a parse, so..... You also seem confused on how fast content is dying as if people weren't already doing content at the same speed before rudras updates. I've seen groups of people for example do delve just as fast before rudras was the in thing, as people were doing it with rudras afterwards.

Also Thanks for telling me what I'm going to say I guess?

[Crevox]

Your walls of text are very hard to read. Can't you space it out a little?


but because they CAN'T play them.

Uhhh, I don't think there's anything stopping people from trying to play Ninjas. Worst thing that could happen is they get turned down from a group invite, but again, that's not SE's fault.


The general mechanic for a job that designed to avoid damage is Broken as hell, and SE knows this.

No, it actually functions quite well on a lot of content, just not everything, and not enough to turn you into a "blink tank" that can sit there and soak everything the mob throws at you. A lot of DDs still sub NIN for the shadows in battlefields and stuff, and for a DD NIN, it works even better. With the addition of Utsusemi: San, this only got better.


but MNK wins out because it has more HP.

I don't think I've ever heard of a situation where someone denied a PUP because it doesn't have the HP of a Monk...


COR, it can sleep things, it has Light shot, but can use it twice, but because their dice roll doesn't actually 'haste' they get the shaft most of time.

You're right, but they're a fantastic buffer when haste is not needed, thus in conjunction with a GEO or BRD (which, it is used for). CORs go to Yorcia delve, Marjami delve, and sometimes even Kamihr delve, for a few examples.


SMN is the Master of Crowd Control

I'm not even going to touch this.


Which is 80% of the end-game they can't handle that.

No, the most difficult content would be *some* VD battlefields, super tanking on something like Divine Might, and extremely high level Incursion. RUN has no problem in delves or any battlefield lower than VD.


and Nerfing Rudra's is going to kill people that want to play DNC.

DNC is a DD support, not a full on DD job. The support they provide is actually quite high and very useful; they shouldn't be able to deal the absurd amounts of damage they currently do, which is because of how strong Rudra's is. Odds are if people are playing DNC right now, they're going to keep playing it after the update.


This game as 22 jobs, and more than half of them can't do things from peoples stubbornness, lacking capacity, or from just lack of survivability.

This is just false as well. The majority if not all the jobs in the game are actually in a much better state now than ever; the community is just extremely slow to catch on. They're all usable in modern day content. There will always be some content that favors some jobs over others (THF on Wopket is just bad because of his intense pierce resist) but that's beside the point.

[Rubeus]

source is top of page 6, crevox. Also, you've made your opinion clear that you're in disagreement. Can we keep the thread going with more voices and their opinion as well?

[Zeargi]

I'm not even going to touch this.

You don't have to, I'll be happy to school you on the art, seeing how you and I share the same main job. Seeing how Delve seems to be the topic that keeps popping up. I'll use that as the example. People have this tendency to sack pull all the mobs near the mega boss. But a SMN can purge Enmity of all those aggroed mobs with a well place AoE Bloodpact. As long as they are touched by something else I.E.: A Bard's Horde Lullaby. Then all the enmity is then placed on to the Avatar and a simple drag and release will mean less fighting hassle for the party. You're welcome.

[Crevox]

source is top of page 6, crevox. Also, you've made your opinion clear that you're in disagreement. Can we keep the thread going with more voices and their opinion as well?


I have my pages set higher, and I was asking for a source where SE said they were buffing 2 handed jobs.

As for your other comment, yeah sure, sorry. I just don't like all these false statements by people who have no real experience to even understand what they're saying, saying things like stun locking out all delve bosses, Slow is useless because of Elegy, etc.


You don't have to, I'll be happy to school you on the art, seeing how you and I share the same main job. Seeing how Delve seems to be the topic that keeps popping up. I'll use that as the example. People have this tendency to sack pull all the mobs near the mega boss. But a SMN can purge Enmity of all those aggroed mobs with a well place AoE Bloodpact. As long as they are touched by something else I.E.: A Bard's Horde Lullaby. Then all the enmity is then placed on to the Avatar and a simple drag and release will mean less fighting hassle for the party. You're welcome.

This is actually the wrong way to do it, but this is useless anyways. Even in something like Yorcia Weald delve, pulling a boss away from the rest of the trash near it is difficult (hard to get close to the boss) and often pointless. You either assault your pet onto the boss (you have to be within a certain range of the boss and NOT the trash) or you assault a trash mob, the boss links, and then you release your pet. Even if you do that, that trash mob you assaulted is STILL going to come with the boss; you're just going to avoid pulling the rest, so ultimately, you still get ONE unless you managed to get in range of the boss (while risking face pulling).

For Yorcia, you have to kill the trash anyways because it's in the way between you and the next boss, so pulling the boss away from it is useless (you could've just slept them). You could do it so you don't HAVE to sleep them, and I do, but again, this is not really all that useful, cause you're going to kill them anyways. When it comes to the mega boss, you need to be in range of the boss to even do this, which means walking THROUGH the trash to get to it, or sicking your pet on the trash to get to the boss, but whenever your pet "Assaults" something, once it dies or is released, the mobs will aggro on you afterward.

In the end, the most optimal thing you get out of doing this is avoiding killing a couple trash mobs. The reason I said "I'm not going to touch this" is because this strategy is so very situational on the placement of the mobs and is such a minor gain that it's not even worth mentioning, let alone as a "plus" for the job.

[PlumbGame]

I have my pages set higher, and I was asking for a source where SE said they were buffing 2 handed jobs.

It wasn't directly said, but was definitely implied. The quote has been used not just several times in this thread but other threads.

Can we please stop with the "I'm right you are wrong" comments you keep using like you are the only one in these forums that actually does end game.

[FrankReynolds]

I don't think I've ever heard of a situation where someone denied a PUP because it doesn't have the HP of a Monk...

I don't remember the last time someone even asked to come pup instead of monk. There's probably a reason for that.


DNC is a DD support, not a full on DD job. The support they provide is actually quite high and very useful; they shouldn't be able to deal the absurd amounts of damage they currently do, which is because of how strong Rudra's is. Odds are if people are playing DNC right now, they're going to keep playing it after the update.

You are grossly exaggerating both the desirability of DNC in a party situation and the damage of Rudra's. DNC is at best tolerated in end game content regardless of their supposedly Very high usefulness. They have only begun to be accepted because their damage is finally on par with other DD's. I can probably count on my fingers the number of times I've seen a DNC in end game content (that wasn't me) prior to the rudra's update. They can add all the utility they want to DNC and any other job for that matter, but it isn't community snobbery keeping those jobs down. It's the content and the jobs themselves. The content simply doesn't require anything that a DNC or THF can do except damage. Everything else is covered by jobs that are already going to be there like bard and whm.

You need to go get a spread sheet or a calculator or something. THF/DNC are not head and shoulders above the rest like you seem to think they are and your droning on about Epeen 3000TP Stacked weapon skills is getting ridiculous. Even if they were, it's not hurting anyone. There's not a single event where people will turn you down if you aren't on THF or DNC right now. Go look through the chat log in town. The only difference now is that instead of shouting for SAM, MNK or RNG, people just shout for a DD. Which is how it should be.

[Crevox]

It wasn't directly said, but was definitely implied. The quote has been used not just several times in this thread but other threads.


Still looking for a source, and "implied" means nothing because everyone keeps saying that SE "promises this" and "promises that" when they've literally never "promised" anything.


I don't remember the last time someone even asked to come pup instead of monk. There's probably a reason for that.


Because not many people play PUP?


You are grossly exaggerating both the desirability of DNC in a party situation

This is, again, a fault of the community. The support DNC provides is very useful, with steps being very potent, etc. Simply because the community cannot properly gauge this (it is not as obvious as bard songs) and debuffs are a lot harder to "feel" does not mean they are not effective.


There's not a single event where people will turn you down if you aren't on THF or DNC right now.

Ever heard of Wopket? The big tree with like 90% pierce resist that THF and DNC can't touch? Yeah, that guy. Yorcia delve is a no no for these jobs, and no pug dares touch Marjami with melee jobs.


Can we please stop with the "I'm right you are wrong" comments you keep using like you are the only one in these forums that actually does end game.


I mean, if I'm wrong, feel free to say so, but I don't think I've said anything that was false, besides the possible subjective things (rudra's being too strong). I'm correcting misinformation.

Either way, like I said, I'm going to stop posting so others can share their opinion, as I've already stated mine (Rudras is getting nerfed AWESOMEAWESOMEAWESOME). Just don't be surprised if I reply when someone posts something at me.

[PlumbGame]

Take whatever you want however you want. I'm just stating its been quoted several times. Spend 5 seconds and use the search feature.

I should also make claims that you are making false statements with no experience or you wouldn't say rudras is overpowered and that no other jobs compete type comments. It seems your experience is wanted?

[FrankReynolds]

Because not many people play PUP?

...and why do you suppose that is?




This is, again, a fault of the community. The support DNC provides is very useful, with steps being very potent, etc. Simply because the community cannot properly gauge this (it is not as obvious as bard songs) and debuffs are a lot harder to "feel" does not mean they are not effective.

They aren't effective though. The situations where they aren't beaten by another jobs debuffs or outright damage are rare enough to make it more sensible to just bring another job. It takes a fair amount of time to apply those steps and they come at the cost of delay and lowering the DNCs damage output not to mention that most things die before you see any significant benefit. Sambas are almost never needed in party content where you will have capped haste from spells and songs anyways and curing means not using saber dance, which is a huge hit to damgage. It's been thoroughly explained on these forums. Go look it up.








I mean, if I'm wrong, feel free to say so.

You are. Smarter people than you and me have mathed this out. THF and DNC damage potential is not far ahead if at all. Nerfing them will do nothing for anyone. DRK, BST, WAR etc. will still have the same deficiencies. They won't go away just because thief sucks again.

[Crevox]

You are. Smarter people than you and me have mathed this out. THF and DNC damage potential is not far ahead if at all. Nerfing them will do nothing for anyone. DRK, BST, WAR etc. will still have the same deficiencies. They won't go away just because thief sucks again.

Can you provide a link to this? You've mentioned it a lot, I'd like to finally see it. I think this thread is most relevant for it, anyways.


...and why do you suppose that is?


Due to false interpretations of job balance, community hating on a job, and difficulty of the job? Yes, it was weaker, but it just got buffed quite a bit, and more soon.

[Ulth]

Because it's OP? If there's an obvious always best option, of course everyone is going to use it. But if the other WS are as bad as you say, then they need help.

Okay so daggers have a much lower base damage than say a great katana. A lot of people use this as a reason to say that jobs like thf and dnc shouldn't be allowed to deal as much damage as jobs like sam. But the dps of daggers and great katanas are actually pretty close. That is because daggers have a much lower delay. Only weaponskills don't take into account delay and always take the same amount of time. Because of this low damage weapons need some sort of boost to their weapon skills. That's why weapons with lower delay have more multi hit ws. But because the ftp of weapon skills kept going up multi hits soon fell to the wayside, but SE brought them back by increasing the ftp of them and having them apply to all hits. Only evis didn't get as much as a boost as say cdc. At first look they seem pretty even cdc is less hits so it gets a higher ftp and wsc than evis, but the reason a sword ws has less hits than a dagger one is because swords have a higher delay and a higher base damage, so really the ftp of evis should be higher like cdc's is.

Another thing that changed a lot of how thf works is it used to deal with it's super low base damage by added extra damage from the dex bonus from sneak attack. Only now that everything has such a high ftp and it gets added after the ftp the dex bonus is pretty much nothing. This needs adjusted to be added before ftp much like how ftp is applied to all hits in a multi hit ws. If they did that then rudra's wouldn't need to have such a crazy ftp for thf to do normal damage. I don't know who actually used thf for stuff like delve before the one hand update, but thfs damage then was not okay at all.

Another problem thf was having preupdate rudra was the way ftp scaled at 2000 and 3000 tp. because everything now is done with capped delay you get 3000 tp waiting for timers. This is why for the longest time thfs we asking for faster timers on sa/ta. ftp at 2000 had never been 2x the amount of ftp 1000, let alone above it. That is what was nice about rudra's after the update is how well ftp scaled at higher tps. Having tp work like that fixed the issue with timers.

The amount of damage a stacked rudra's does at 2000tp right now is not OP. It takes a good deal of work, and is dependent on 2 1 minute timers. For one thing the average is greatly exaggerated It's not 30k-45k or what ever people are saying it is. It's actually something like 18k-22k and in that 30 seconds between those any sam could do 3 8k fudos. I'm actually fine with unstacked rudra's taking a hit, but not stacked ones. That's why if they nerf rudra's they need to give some bonus to sneak attack, trick attack, and climatic flourish like having their added damage added in before the ftp.

[Celoria]

Or maybe you are playing with trash sams and apparently only go in super buffed? Those numbers are far from typical of typical thfs. 20k unstacked on non piercing weak stuff is ridiculously high even assuming really good sets and capped pdif and 3000 tp. And congratulations in the time it took you to get that a good sam just did a 5 step skillchain for more. Which brings me to a point I've made before... the ws wasn't meant to be used with capped pdif as the jobs that get it aren't ones that do that easily. The only time/reason thfs are topping out like that are because of ridiculous overbuffing that completely nullifies the inherent greater attack most 2hders get.

A better solution would be to make those things matter again. Maybe address how OP Geo is. And again if I got the right buffs/debuffs I can hit even higher dmgs with at least 4 different ws of the top of my head. 1 or 2 of which I believe I can self lvl 3 without having to /sam.

Yes that is why everything dies so much faster now with thf in pt, because shit sams and not good thfs, or because thf messed up the poor wittle sam's sc. Face it, 2 thf sc rudra in delve and a nm dies, vs a sam having to ws multiple times. 35k rudra + 35k rudra = 35k+ darkness, that will smoke a few 8-14k fudo (assuming sam can hit 14k) and getting their 20-25k double light. You say bad sam's, that is bullshit. Any half witted thf with optimal gear will smoke sam's even lolkoga. Delve clear times have been reduced since thf, not increased. Like I said, you play with shit thfs.

Also that stupid shit about a sam can 5 step in the time it takes thf to get 1 20k ws is stupid too, maybe you need to learn to gear thf too. Thf can self sc darkness as /war just tp gear alone in the gear we have now with buffs, but all jobs get buffed anyway. As for all this "over buffing" I get stuck with brds that have to cater to lolsam DD and dealing with the idiot brd that can't figure out how to separate songs, so I end up way over cap on -delay, which does 0 good. So all this "over buffing" you think thf is getting is garbage most thf actually lose out on dmg output because pt's cater to sam and don't know thf only needs haste II and 1 March song to cap -delay. Hell I solo darkness on thf with trust song and koru haste II. You are possibly a shit thf, and know shit thfs if you think that sam is even remotely close to sam in parse.



Another problem thf was having preupdate rudra was the way ftp scaled at 2000 and 3000 tp. because everything now is done with capped delay you get 3000 tp waiting for timers. This is why for the longest time thfs we asking for faster timers on sa/ta. ftp at 2000 had never been 2x the amount of ftp 1000, let alone above it. That is what was nice about rudra's after the update is how well ftp scaled at higher tps. Having tp work like that fixed the issue with timers.

The amount of damage a stacked rudra's does at 2000tp right now is not OP. It takes a good deal of work, and is dependent on 2 1 minute timers. For one thing the average is greatly exaggerated It's not 30k-45k or what ever people are saying it is. It's actually something like 18k-22k and in that 30 seconds between those any sam could do 3 8k fudos. I'm actually fine with unstacked rudra's taking a hit, but not stacked ones. That's why if they nerf rudra's they need to give some bonus to sneak attack, trick attack, and climatic flourish like having their added damage added in before the ftp.

If your thf are holding tp til 300% they are seriously gimping their own dmg, also they should be alternating the SA and TA for max dmg, starting with TA to keep hate on someone else so they can use SA a few times before pulling hate and needing bully to SA again. Also you seem to think thf can't hit 8k rudra unstacked, those 30k-45k rudras are NOT exaggerated. The avg is yes. But again with 2 thf in pt you only need one SA and TA each before most nm's are dead. With the exception of megabosses. Sam with 3 8k fudo, vs thf with 2 20k ruda and a 10k rudra... and that is WAY low end dmg for thf. Then timers down on SA and thf still pulls 10k+ rudra's fast enough to self sc.

[Rubeus]

as regards the 2-handed update (in addition to the other update that boosted 1-handed weapon accuracy to 99% and normalized TP): Originally Posted by Camate:
As the one-handed weapon adjustments just took place very recently, we would like to monitor the balance between them and two-handed weapons for a while before we look into two-handed weapon adjustments.

Furthermore, as mentioned during Freshly Picked Vana’diel 14, the team would first like to prioritize pet and elemental magic adjustments."

BGwiki's rudra's storm entries provide a nice ftp breakdown and testings, but as far as DD parsing goes, I'll have to look that up some other time. I can tell you from experience in delve with my LS that BST can easily outperform THF by using cloudsplitter and chaining with their pets. But as far as non-anecdotal evidence, I'll have to figure out what keywords that falls under.

[machini]

Oh, and I'd like to also add that DNC isn't actually in demand on my server. People go for THF. Even with Rudra's being "OP", very few people actually want anything but THF.

The problem is the userbase's inability to understand anything with complexity, anything that's not fudofudofudofudo or MNK MNK MNK.

[dasva]

You're right, and by your logic, they might not even nerf Rudra's. They are "considering" those dagger changes just like they are "considering" SAM changes.



Source? Also, they did buff 2 handed weapons, considering the huge damage augments they get from skirmish.

Um no you are missing the point entirely. There is a world of difference between saying you are going to do xyz and we are considering possibly making doing something. If you can't discern the difference between a definite we are doing this and a we are thinking about doing something I don't know what to tell you.

And source? It was quoted the page before you quoted me or just do a dev note search. And everyone got huge dmg augments from skirmish.

[Crevox]

Um no you are missing the point entirely. There is a world of difference between saying you are going to do xyz and we are considering possibly making doing something. If you can't discern the difference between a definite we are doing this and a we are thinking about doing something I don't know what to tell you.

They didn't say they were going to do it though, they said they were "considering" it. They are "currently looking at adjusting" it in the way they stated, and they have "have begun to consider these balance adjustments" for THF and SAM. They simply did not tell us what they were "considering" for SAM. There was no definites, and this is proven further at the end of they post when they said "we wished to communicate these details to you in advance as we continue to thoroughly discuss this matter" because they are still discussing it.

None of this is set in stone. They are still talking about it, however, they were kind enough to let us know ahead of time what they were planning because they are seeking feedback on it.

And based on the quote:


As the one-handed weapon adjustments just took place very recently, we would like to monitor the balance between them and two-handed weapons for a while before we look into two-handed weapon adjustments.

They did not state they were going to make two-handed weapon adjustments. They said they were going to monitor the balance, and then "look into" adjustments. This does not mean there will be adjustments; there may be, there may not be. They are going to look into it. It could happen, or it could not. It depends on how they feel about the balance after "monitoring" it.

This is why I ask for quotes and sources, because people misinterpret.


And everyone got huge dmg augments from skirmish.

Except that two handers roll higher damage values than one handers. This is a especially noticeable buff for Monks and Puppetmasters, who got the two handed damage roll variant on their fists (+36 DMG).

[dasva]

Yes that is why everything dies so much faster now with thf in pt, because shit sams and not good thfs, or because thf messed up the poor wittle sam's sc. Face it, 2 thf sc rudra in delve and a nm dies, vs a sam having to ws multiple times. 35k rudra + 35k rudra = 35k+ darkness, that will smoke a few 8-14k fudo (assuming sam can hit 14k) and getting their 20-25k double light. You say bad sam's, that is bullshit. Any half witted thf with optimal gear will smoke sam's even lolkoga. Delve clear times have been reduced since thf, not increased. Like I said, you play with shit thfs.

Also that stupid shit about a sam can 5 step in the time it takes thf to get 1 20k ws is stupid too, maybe you need to learn to gear thf too. Thf can self sc darkness as /war just tp gear alone in the gear we have now with buffs, but all jobs get buffed anyway. As for all this "over buffing" I get stuck with brds that have to cater to lolsam DD and dealing with the idiot brd that can't figure out how to separate songs, so I end up way over cap on -delay, which does 0 good. So all this "over buffing" you think thf is getting is garbage most thf actually lose out on dmg output because pt's cater to sam and don't know thf only needs haste II and 1 March song to cap -delay. Hell I solo darkness on thf with trust song and koru haste II. You are possibly a shit thf, and know shit thfs if you think that sam is even remotely close to sam in parse.

Now you are just making shit up. First off skill chain multipliers are way higher than that. Sounds like you play with shit sams that just fudo all the things.

Except you were saying 20k unstacked which means saving tp. There is no way you are getting to 3000 tp in the 10 seconds required to self skillchain. Also what the heck does "tp gear alone in the gear we have now with buffs" even mean? But keep on making shit up and taking what I say out of context. Like how I specifically talked about att with overbuffing and you now go on about -delay. You are still clearly getting overbuffed on the attack end to get those dmgs you claim (though I'm starting to think more and more you are making stuff up). Those dmgs are clearly the result of capped pdif and to do that on thf on mobs with 1500-2k def that means huge amounts of attack and/or huge amounts of -def which like I said completely kills the built in benefits of most 2hdd DDs. Also I find it hilarious that you call me a shit thf when you clearly puts more than enough dual wield to cap -delay when getting properly haste and can't understand the simple concept of swapping out some dual wield gear when you get more haste.

Also 35k ws? Get on my level bro

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/f43a8ee9e6d1f6d3004593acd28c5d4e.png

[Alhanelem]

They didn't say they were going to do it though, they said they were "considering" it. They are "currently looking at adjusting"This is usually Cryptic SE PR Speak for "we're going to do this." They wouldn't have made post if they weren't actually planning to change something.

[Crevox]

Also 35k ws? Get on my level bro

Hurray for Indi-Acumen, Geo-Malaise, possible MAB gear, probably other buff/debuff stacking for a magical light weapon skill on a mob that takes extra damage from light.


This is usually Cryptic SE PR Speak for "we're going to do this." They wouldn't have made post if they weren't actually planning to change something.


Oh yes, they are certainly planning on doing it. However, it may still change based on the feedback they receive, and the final details of the adjustments (which weaponskills, how they will be nerfed, values, etc) may still change.

However, either way, their current desire and motivation to make the changes is clear, so we can expect them to be pushing forward to handle this somehow.

[dasva]

They didn't say they were going to do it though, they said they were "considering" it. They are "currently looking at adjusting" it in the way they stated, and they have "have begun to consider these balance adjustments" for THF and SAM. They simply did not tell us what they were "considering" for SAM. There was no definites, and this is proven further at the end of they post when they said "we wished to communicate these details to you in advance as we continue to thoroughly discuss this matter" because they are still discussing it.

None of this is set in stone. They are still talking about it, however, they were kind enough to let us know ahead of time what they were planning because they are seeking feedback on it.
You are right somewhat I did miss the whole thing was prefaced by a maybe.. .that said there is a certain greater amount of definitiveness to we are doing a certain something than a maybe something.


And based on the quote:



They did not state they were going to make two-handed weapon adjustments. They said they were going to monitor the balance, and then "look into" adjustments. This does not mean there will be adjustments; there may be, there may not be. They are going to look into it. It could happen, or it could not. It depends on how they feel about the balance after "monitoring" it.

This is why I ask for quotes and sources, because people misinterpret..

Except that was exactly how I interpreted it. What your saying just goes back to what I was saying about what looks into and consider means. I was merely comparing it to how when some say something that non definitive and vague that it could easily not happen. Same with that tiny sam blurb.


Except that two handers roll higher damage values than one handers. This is a especially noticeable buff for Monks and Puppetmasters, who got the two handed damage roll variant on their fists (+36 DMG).Actually from what I've seen it's more complex than just 2hd vs 1hd. You will actually see different amounts on different weapons. Like swd getting more than dagger. And this is how it should be because each weapon type had huge varying amounts of dmg already capable so giving them the same flat amount would've actually been a gimp to the higher dmg ones. By giving the weapons that already had a higher base dmg a even higher amount they maintain to an extent the balance of dmg between them.

Look at it this way if you had a 10 dmg weapon and 1 dmg weapon that attack 10 times as fast the dmgs would be somewhat balanced. But then if you added 1 dmg to each but kept the delays the same you would've only increased the 10 dmg weapon users dmg by around 10% while the 1 dmg weapon would've doubled. A very extreme example to be sure but it's just to illustrate the point I was making.

[dasva]

Hurray for Indi-Acumen, Geo-Malaise, possible MAB gear, probably other buff/debuff stacking for a magical light weapon skill on a mob that takes extra damage from light.
Possibly mab gear? I mean sure it was a hobbled together ws set but at least give me enough credit to somewhat gear it right lol. And yes there was acumen and malaise from a mule though since I was just rolling with me and a mule I couldn't get any other debuffs/buffs at the time. Though looking into getting an Idris which along with being much stronger malaise/acumen will allow me to throw on light weather and light shot for a bit more dmg plus I have a real ws set now so I should be able to hit the display cap with just that if not maybe I can find a run to add another 30%. I'm fairly certain I can hit the display cap even on a non weak monster with enough buffs/debuffs. A friend did 60k cloudsplitter to Tojil doing similar things as can several other magical ws. But that's precisely the point I was trying to make. When you super buff/debuff for something you can pull of crazy numbers. You take away all those external att buffs/-def debuffs and rudra's is fairly mediocre just like most magical ws are fairly meh without the right + mab buffs/-mdb debuffs. But if Rudra's OPness is going to come from obviously buffed up att then it's perfectly logical for me to buff my ws with things that will boost it.

[machini]

This is usually Cryptic SE PR Speak for "we're going to do this." They wouldn't have made post if they weren't actually planning to change something.

Yeah, something that people who have no experience with languages other than English might not understand is that, even when translated into English, there is such a thing as nuance. Sometimes, indirect statements are to be interpreted as direct statements of action.

What might be considered passive-aggressive speech in English could very well be proper, polite ways of making statements in other languages.

An example you might be familiar with: No work is to be done, by Jews, on the Sabbath. There is a great deal of argument about what constitutes 'work' in that context. There are also Jews who take it more seriously than others, to the point where they pre-tear pieces of toilet paper for use, for example, because the act of tearing a piece of toilet paper off the roll is considered "doing work".

Some Jews employ "shabbos goy", people whose entire job is to do things for the Jew that the Jew himself is not permitted to do on their Sabbath, as it constitutes 'work'. Such as turning on an air conditioner, turning the lights on in a room, etc, etc. However, in my experience as such, the person desiring the light switch flicked, the AC turned on, a phone call made, etc, must phrase it as a request, or otherwise indirectly. "It sure is hot in here" for "I would like the AC on" or "I can hardly see" for "Please turn on the lights."

As to why it's like that, don't ask me. Not everyone takes it to that extreme.

That's a very specific example, but such constructs can occur in other languages. For example, instead of saying, "I want to talk about the merger", one might say, "It's possible that later a discussion might occur wherein business arrangements could be discussed."

A friend who lives and works in Japan tells me that Japanese speech is often, when literally translated into English, indirect or nebulous. The language employs many set phrases for situations, and the language and the culture are inextricably bound up together in how they deal with politeness. For people who are raised or otherwise well educated on or in the culture these things require no explanation. When translating from one language into another language, wherein speakers of the new language have different cultural expectations on speech, action, and directness, nuance is often lost.

An example with languages I actually have direct knowledge of, in Latin, you never talk about the dead. If someone has died, you do not say, "Commodus has died". You instead say, "Commodus has gone to the ancestors" or "Commodus has gone to the majority", just as in English people sometimes will say, "My grandma has passed on" instead of "My grandma is dead."

[Ulth]

Yes that is why everything dies so much faster now with thf in pt, because shit sams and not good thfs, or because thf messed up the poor wittle sam's sc. Face it, 2 thf sc rudra in delve and a nm dies, vs a sam having to ws multiple times. 35k rudra + 35k rudra = 35k+ darkness, that will smoke a few 8-14k fudo (assuming sam can hit 14k) and getting their 20-25k double light. You say bad sam's, that is bullshit. Any half witted thf with optimal gear will smoke sam's even lolkoga. Delve clear times have been reduced since thf, not increased. Like I said, you play with shit thfs.

Also that stupid shit about a sam can 5 step in the time it takes thf to get 1 20k ws is stupid too, maybe you need to learn to gear thf too. Thf can self sc darkness as /war just tp gear alone in the gear we have now with buffs, but all jobs get buffed anyway. As for all this "over buffing" I get stuck with brds that have to cater to lolsam DD and dealing with the idiot brd that can't figure out how to separate songs, so I end up way over cap on -delay, which does 0 good. So all this "over buffing" you think thf is getting is garbage most thf actually lose out on dmg output because pt's cater to sam and don't know thf only needs haste II and 1 March song to cap -delay. Hell I solo darkness on thf with trust song and koru haste II. You are possibly a shit thf, and know shit thfs if you think that sam is even remotely close to sam in parse.



If your thf are holding tp til 300% they are seriously gimping their own dmg, also they should be alternating the SA and TA for max dmg, starting with TA to keep hate on someone else so they can use SA a few times before pulling hate and needing bully to SA again. Also you seem to think thf can't hit 8k rudra unstacked, those 30k-45k rudras are NOT exaggerated. The avg is yes. But again with 2 thf in pt you only need one SA and TA each before most nm's are dead. With the exception of megabosses. Sam with 3 8k fudo, vs thf with 2 20k ruda and a 10k rudra... and that is WAY low end dmg for thf. Then timers down on SA and thf still pulls 10k+ rudra's fast enough to self sc.

Who taught you math Lou Costello (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS2aEfbEi7s)? I said every 30 seconds thf can do 1 stacked rudra for about 18-22k and in that time sam could do 3 8k fudos, which you through some magic math turned into 2 20k rudra and 1 10k rudra, but still sam with only 3 fudos. And I know you can hit 30k with rudra's. You should see how much damage it does to Manananggal in Abyssea Tahrongi with 3000 tp, and 3 atmas.

What are you even doing in here? You clearly don't know what you are talking about. You should just stop. Trying to trick SE into thinking thf is too powerful won't change how bad drk sucks.

[Alhanelem]

Yeah, something that people who have no experience with languages other than English might not understand is that, even when translated into English, there is such a thing as nuance. Sometimes, indirect statements are to be interpreted as direct statements of action.

What might be considered passive-aggressive speech in English could very well be proper, polite ways of making statements in other languages.

An example you might be familiar with: No work is to be done, by Jews, on the Sabbath. There is a great deal of argument about what constitutes 'work' in that context. There are also Jews who take it more seriously than others, to the point where they pre-tear pieces of toilet paper for use, for example, because the act of tearing a piece of toilet paper off the roll is considered "doing work".

Some Jews employ "shabbos goy", people whose entire job is to do things for the Jew that the Jew himself is not permitted to do on their Sabbath, as it constitutes 'work'. Such as turning on an air conditioner, turning the lights on in a room, etc, etc. However, in my experience as such, the person desiring the light switch flicked, the AC turned on, a phone call made, etc, must phrase it as a request, or otherwise indirectly. "It sure is hot in here" for "I would like the AC on" or "I can hardly see" for "Please turn on the lights."

As to why it's like that, don't ask me. Not everyone takes it to that extreme.

That's a very specific example, but such constructs can occur in other languages. For example, instead of saying, "I want to talk about the merger", one might say, "It's possible that later a discussion might occur wherein business arrangements could be discussed."

A friend who lives and works in Japan tells me that Japanese speech is often, when literally translated into English, indirect or nebulous. The language employs many set phrases for situations, and the language and the culture are inextricably bound up together in how they deal with politeness. For people who are raised or otherwise well educated on or in the culture these things require no explanation. When translating from one language into another language, wherein speakers of the new language have different cultural expectations on speech, action, and directness, nuance is often lost.

An example with languages I actually have direct knowledge of, in Latin, you never talk about the dead. If someone has died, you do not say, "Commodus has died". You instead say, "Commodus has gone to the ancestors" or "Commodus has gone to the majority", just as in English people sometimes will say, "My grandma has passed on" instead of "My grandma is dead."I don't know what that was all about,but I was simply referring to personal experience with official posts in the past that used similar statements. Generally, when they say something like "we're looking into this" it usually means they ARE going to do it (when is anybody's guess) - what they're "looking into" is how to go about it.

[machini]

I don't personally think it makes much sense that daggers do more damage than great axes, weaponskill or otherwise.

Ask a lumberjack if he would like to chop down trees with a knife. Heavy weapons do more damage in real life, halberds and soforth were used by countercavalry divisions to cleave horses basically in half, and put the mounted knights down into the mud. You didn't see those mountcleaving divisions using knives. Knives are traditionally more effective and damaging when used by assassins, dipped in poison, to stab in the unprotected back, or to cut throats, again usually by unexpected rear attack.

Obviously FFXI is not real life, and has its own system with weaponskills, which are not the same as reality, where attacks are basically analog single strikes. So I do allow for the game/fantasy/FFXI weaponskill factor, and soforth, but even so it somehow doesn't seem right when a weapon that is basically a glorified toothpick, deals more damage than an enormous heavy countercavalry great axe.

I really do not mean to be rude, but there is so much wrong with what you think real warfare is like that I cannot even begin to address all the wrong points.

I have seriously sat here for ten minutes now typing, deleting, typing and then deleting, over and over, various responses to you. I am trying very hard not to be insulting, but I have a very bad feeling that you have gotten almost all of your knowledge in life about these things from movies, video games, and the (recent) History Channel.

Cavalry were rare. Heavy Calvary more so. Horses were expensive to feed, to train, and to keep. Those able to afford not just a horse, but a heavy war horse, trained to function in battle (which is pretty much the exact opposite of what horses want to do in that situation), but also armor and weapons for themselves (to be considered 'knights'), were the top of the top in the military at the time.

Getting a "mounted knight[] down into the mud", as you put it, was quite different than what you seem to think it was. A knight, clad in plate, trained for long years to its use, was far, far more mobile than most people seem to think they were. You could run, jump, climb, roll, and do cartwheels in plate armor. It was both far lighter, and far less cumbersome to wear, that most people think it was.

The best way to deal with an armored opponent wearing anything heavier than a soft leather is to beat them to death. Axes and swords are less use against your traditional plate-armored knight than hammers, maces, and the occasional warpick. Mail and Plate are excellent at negating the main danger posed by bladed weapons, which is being cut by them. Once this advantage of a bladed weapon is negated, the only use it really has is "how heavy is this thing so I can beat you to death with it". You wanted something like a mace, or a hammer, that let you put a large amount of force on a very small area. The pick follows the same idea. These were weapons that were most effective against the armored knight, because you could dent the armor in to them, or poke straight through it like someone (sufficiently strong) could do with an icepick to a tin can.

If you actually managed to get the armored knight close to you, to where longer weapons were no avail, you actually would use a dagger to kill them. You would shove it into their throat, under their chin, down past their collarbone into their common carotid, under their arm, into their groin, or any other spot where the armor did not protect that was next to impossible to hit on an upright, moving opponent with any degree of accuracy.

What was most likely to happen is you would beat the shit out of each other with something large, blunt, and heavy, and then once you had concussed your opponent sufficiently, they'd lay there until the battle was over, at which time you would see if they were alive. If they were, you'd decided whether they were worth ransoming, or if you should just kill them.

The commonly conceived 'long sword' or western military tradition was not a main armament. It served a purpose similar to a handgun does for the modern military today. It was your secondary, backup weapon. Archers had swords to use when the enemy closed in on them, a knight would carry a sword in case they lost their other weapon, cavalry carried swords because a cutting weapon was smarter to use on horseback when running down fleeing foes (which, that, and harassing the enemies flanks and attacking lighter formations, was what you used them for, other than sheer terror and shock value). Even then, the knight would still carry a dagger for closer, more intimate combat with others, and because they were actually quite useful, and used as utensils when eating.

You state that "heavy weapons do more damage in real life", but that is simply a function of mass and acceleration. Assuming you can wield it, a 2 pound hammer is going to do more damage to someone than a one pound hammer, just as an 8 pound sledge will do still more. And against any armored opponent, you would be better off beating them to death than trying to cut them (which mail and plate make impossible), or stab them (which is not impossible but incredibly difficult with either mail or plate).

Axes could be useful, but they fall into the same category as your typical two-handed sword in this case: it is not useful for its ability to cleave, cut, or hack. It is useful because it is a large, heavy object that you can put a great deal of force behind.

Final Fantasy XI is a video game. A fantasy video game. Reality has no place in it. Or are you going to start complaining about magic, next, since that's also "unrealistic"?

If you have real issues with Rudra's Storm's mechanics, and how it makes DNC and THF alternatives to eternal SAM and MNK spam, say them. But don't try to bring up "it's unrealistic" when you don't even know what "realistic" is.

[machini]

@Alhanelam, I wasn't replying specifically to you, I just quoted your post to add on to it. No intent to single you out, sorry if I did.

[V-1000]

Any job that can self chain will usually do a lot more dmg on average due to skillchain power, that right there makes people mad because some jobs cannot do this at all unless /sam and thats still pretty limited. i believe in balance but most DD hit hard on reg hits and ok on ws and most dagger type jobs hit low on reg hits but big ws,i dont undestand why people want dd to hit hard and do huge ws and want dagger types jobs to hit for low and do small ws aswell.. that to me does not seem like balance to me the issuse with Rudra on dagger jobs is that THF & DNC have ws boosting abilities, if rudra was a sword or katana ws i bet no one would be complaining cause a NIN has no sneak/trick atk nor building/climactic flourish. so they would never be able to do 20k ws, we also cant spam it atleast not on DNC, sure we can hit 20k+ ws but thats only possible after saving 300tp and having to use both Cli/build Flourish then i wont be able to re use until both timers are up, the ws itself ins't the issue dmg without using abilities or saving tp to 300 is low thats why we never ws at 100tp its not worth it. its the fact that only these 2 jobs seem to be able to get high numbers on their ws due to them being able to boost their ws that is making people complaint. but other jobs can do high ws dmg and they don't need to use 2 abilities nor wait to 300tp to do so, i would suggest that SE took a look at every weapon and find the ones that are lacking in power and boost atleast 1 ws from each category so it does ok dmg but DNC & THF will still be on top because we are using 2 abilities and capping TP, so lets say every weapon has atleast 1 ws that on 300tp can do 15k you cant expect DNC & THF to do 15k aswell after using 2 abilities to boost ours, our dmg will be higher still because of those abilities which is what people somehow fail to grasp we are using up 2 abilities and saving tp to get this high numbers vs reg dd who are spamming theirs at 100tp with no abilities to boost them somehow expecting to hit high numbers….but when don't, they get mad because they don't see the same numbers. your not either saving tp nor trading anything in exchange we are…….its not that daggers are stronger than other heavier weapons is that only these 2 dagger jobs can boost their dagger ws VIA ABILITIES that make them hit harder, if these jobs did not had these abilities our Rudra's would never be doing more then the heavier dd counterparts. its not the ws nor daggers alone its combination of a weapon with 2 abilities that make Rudra so strong if a DRK or a WAR had /sneak/trick-building/clismatic work the same way it does for DNC & THF then i bet everyone would be mad at them. the nerf is aim at the ws itself but its not the ws nor the daggers is the fact that these 2 jobs an boost and average ws to make it impossible to gauge when all tp/timer req are meet.

[PlumbGame]

Your sam sucks.

This nerf though is still bringing up an entirely different issue that people aren't addressing. The balance of DDs using ardor, around SC dmg. This isn't just a possible nerf towards rudras, SE is trying to balance jobs around ARDOR.

[machini]

Your sam sucks.

This nerf though is still bringing up an entirely different issue that people aren't addressing. The balance of DDs using ardor, around SC dmg. This isn't just a possible nerf towards rudras, SE is trying to balance jobs around ARDOR.

To whom are you responding?

[Protey]

Actually that may not be the case, according to S-E's post regarding Ardor:



The wording of "ally" indicates it can't be cast on just anyone, such as any player outside of your party, just like Erase. And with that being the case, it also can't be cast across alliances, just like Erase. That said, it's pretty much guaranteed it will be within your own party only.

(Unless it has some weird job-specific mechanics like SCH and Regen spells, then it could be cast across alliances. But it's just speculation at this point - until the spell is released, there's no way to state for fact it is or is not party-exclusive.) :p

when it is party only they say "party member".

[machini]

Actually, I think I have figured out what the problem is in regards to THF, how it's the same problem with SAM, and why they're doing what they're doing.

Consider the following:

Shark Bite, Mercy Stroke, Mandalic Stab, and Rudra's Storm are being adjusted.
Shark Bite has Fragmentation, Mercy Stroke has Gravitation, Mandalic Stab has Fusion, and Rudra's Storm has Distortion.

When the Empyrean WSes were originally designed, being able to use Rudra's Storm and being able to use Mercy Stroke at the same time were mutually exclusive. This meant that the only job that could use all four of the level 2 skillchain properties was SAM, with Kaiten for Fragmentation, Rana for Gravitation, Kasha for Fusion, and Gekko for Distortion.

When Empyrean WSes were made unlockable, this gave THF access to all level 2 skillchain properties. Combined with the buffs you get to Mercy Stroke from Mandau, something THF, but not DNC, can use, along with the buffs to other dagger WSes, well.

People like to go on and on about Rudra's dealing large damage stacked, silly self darknesses, but the real major damage is in those indefinitely long self skill chains that SAM and, now, THF are able to do combined with heavy hitting weapon skills...

This is why those four WSes are being adjusted, and why THF and SAM are being adjusted. Not DNC or BRD, even though both can use Rudra's Storm, even though DNC can spam Rudra's better than THF can, because neither can easily access the Fusion property.

However, if a single SAM or THF is the only one skillchaining, and it's very easy these days to get TP gain high enough to allow near constant self skillchaining, that means they can very quickly get ridiculously high damage output.

I bet that's what this is about.

[Alhanelem]

(which I would personally suggest buffing other DD jobs). i know this was a while back but its important to note:

Nobody likes nerfs, especially if it's to their favorite thing. But you can't just buff everything else up to the strongest thing, because that creates a power creep issue where eventually you hit a cieling where you can't buff things anymore without serious reprecussions, and the entire game gets trivialized. Sometimes nerfs are necessary.

[Crevox]

i know this was a while back but its important to note:

Nobody likes nerfs, especially if it's to their favorite thing. But you can't just buff everything else up to the strongest thing, because that creates a power creep issue where eventually you hit a cieling where you can't buff things anymore without serious reprecussions, and the entire game gets trivialized. Sometimes nerfs are necessary.

Yeah, this is why I would rather have nerfs. There's like a couple VERY STRONG things and then everything else is somewhat balanced with each other. If they just nerf those VERY STRONG things we're all good and balanced. I'd rather they do that than buff EVERYTHING else so that everything is too easy.

[PlumbGame]

You guys are hugely mistaken as if rudras is getting some kind of nerf that will put it onto lvls of jobs like dark night, therefore "balancing". Not only will there still be huge discrepancies between jobs that are vastly under performing, but there may be discrepancies between jobs that were on the same lvl as thf and thf after nerf. It is poor game design to nerf everything to balance when there hasn't just been a month or 2 of imbalance, but years. It throws things off when you all the sudden can't do content at the same rate that you were for long periods of time. This isn't the case here, because again, there was already DD jobs on the same level as rudras, so the content will still be cleared just as fast, but the idea that your guys comments revolve around nerfing everything into the ground to balance is sickening, but hey, I shouldn't be shocked since its obvious from your comments that you don't have much experience with where DDs are, so you assume rudras is just reining supreme over everything.

[Janethetaru]

It has come to my attention that many people voicing their displeasure with the idea of a rudra's storm nerf are being reported (by sams) and banned from the forums. This is unacceptable. No amount of samurai butthurt will silence the resounding chorus of the masses that do not want a rudra nerf. As I have said before, if you want to achieve more balance, a buff to 2hand weapon skills is more appropriate. DRK and DRG have been laughed at for too long, and DRK should be about the best DD in the game.

[Dale]

Anyone who laughs at Dragoons just hasn't grouped with a well-played dragoon before.

They can self skill chain - do large amounts of damage - and single target heal very efficiently. It's a powerful job. It's just in many cases the wyvern isn't utilized effectively in combat.

I can't comment much on Dark Knight - only to say the few I do know aren't very satisfied with it so I have no reason to dispute the malcontent toward Dark Knights. It could be justified.

From what I understand of the developer's post - the addition of the spell Ardor is going to increase the power of thieves. So that may help counter-balance these nerfs to dagger weapon skills. These changes may not be as dramatic as those affected fear.

[dasva]

Anyone who laughs at Dragoons just hasn't grouped with a well-played dragoon before.

They can self skill chain - do large amounts of damage - and single target heal very efficiently. It's a powerful job. It's just in many cases the wyvern isn't utilized effectively in combat.

I think part of the problem comes from they gave them that huge boon from having a lvld wyvern out which it needed but in a lot of situations having one out fully lvld for the whole fight isn't necessarily easy. Should add some kind of ja that just automatically fully lvls the wyvern. And then get rid of the attack penalties on the polearm ws

[Kensagaku]

There is a JA that fully levels the wyvern, it's called Spirit Link with 5/5 Empathy merits.

[Kylos]

SE should boost WAR DRK and DRG (without Mythics) to be closer to Samurai, that way the mighty SAM/Rudras combination won't be as necessary or apparent. Having a balance between DD jobs would make it more about the skill and equipment possessed by the player, not the job itself.

I already made a post about this and suggested ways that WAR DRK and DRG could be updated. I shouldn't be ridiculed because I want to join a party on DRK. I have THF and I've been using it as my main DD over my Ragnarok DRK for months now.The job I always considered my farming job is also my main DD. I can't see any content where someone would prefer my Relic DRK over my THF with no RME weapon.

Edit: We have Rune Fencer using Great Sword, but Scythe on Dark Knight hasn't been relevant in high-end content for many years. Scythe should be considered a weapon DRK can use just as efficiently as Great Sword even if you don't have access to a Liberator.

[Tidis]

The biggest problem for me is that the game hasn't been properly balanced in respect to DDs since the 75 days, outside of specifics like a RNG strat or resistances like Wokpet to piercing, when people are doing events it should be a case of SAM can I have it or as I sometimes see THF SC can I have it? As a result, THF and SAM are probably overdue a nerf, SAM needing a bigger one than THF but both not particularly huge, at the same time they should be boosting GA, GS and Polearm WS to benefit WAR, DRK and DRG who are certainly the DD jobs lagging behind, Mythic DRGs being the exception. Wouldn't hurt to boost Scythe either, just to give DRK a bit of variety.

[dasva]

There is a JA that fully levels the wyvern, it's called Spirit Link with 5/5 Empathy merits.

Doesn't that take multiple activations to fully lvl it up though? Like it takes 200 xp per lvl for a max of 5 lvls and Empathy says 200 xp per merit level past the first so max 800. Though I suppose a 1.5 minute wait isn't too bad.

[Watts101]

Ok so the original post stated quite specifically that the reason for any WS adjustments is because adding ardor's SC damage increase to the current SC damage of SA/TA dagger WS's would put it higher than the the Dev team wants to see, this is because ardor is based around the number of hits before WS activation. Thief triple attacks a lot, new gear has them Tripling even more frequently! An adjustment to reduce the SC damage possible with ardor in affect makes sense. I don't think anyone wants to be able to do 99k Skillchains on 130+ content it'll be over before it began. My tidbit take it for what its worth:

Dagger/Weaponskill Suggestion: adjust Rudra's storm's 2000-3000 tp mod down about 3.0 that would put it at approx. 12.0 ftp mod at 2000 and 16.5 ftp mod; those are still very high mods for the WS. which gives it similar mods, but still superior, to sword FTP mods. I.E. Savage Blade.

Perform similar tweaking of the other dagger weaponskills if necessary. I don't want to see DNC BRD or THF suddenly disappear from being invited to content. Dagger needed the power boost for a long time. If it needs balancing, keep the balancing of the weapon to a minimum. The same goes for SAM and Fudo. Adjust the WS slightly, but leave it wholly intact. The player base enjoys the power of these weaponskills!

After making these minor adjustments, Turn your attention to other weaponskills. Elemental Weaponskills: should be approached as a source of alternative damage for the weapon class, this could help various DD jobs to be able to perform effectively even when they are fighting a monster that is strong to their primary damage type. for example: Raiden thrust on Polearm could be adjusted for higher thunder based elemental Damage. Or you could always introduce new elemental Weaponskills for all the weapons, with modifiers that are consistent and effective replacement options to their physical counterparts; That would be fun.

Back on Topic, when reducing the power of a weapon keep the reduction to a minimum. while increasing the damage of other weapons to close the gap, be a bit more generous. If the adjustment over shoots the intended Balance reduce the power but conservatively until you achieve balance on all Weapons. This way the job power hierarchy is centered on the Abilities of the player and their ability to manipulate a Jobs abilities and traits, Not simply on the power of ANY single weaponskill. Everyone should be able to play and feel powerful, but for the large number of endgame players, which XI has, player skill and experience should allow ANY job to shine and out compete another job if used properly. A DRG used properly should be able to outperform a SAM and vice versa, or a DNC should be able to make a DRK cry, but it shouldn't be easy, it should rely on using the Job and its abilities effectively, I feel this form of game play is intended in current battle system but I don't feel like it's achieved. Players only use whatever Job currently has the easiest access to high levels of power, but everyone has their favorite job that they want to take and can't, because it doesn't have easy access to high levels of power comparable to the other powered up jobs.

Ardor Suggestion: If Possible; consider capping the SC potency for single handed weapons a bit lower than 2 handed weapons, I don't know if the game mechanics allow for such a differentiation. In theory, this would allow for single hander's to get full effect of the spell for their weapon class; while allowing 2- handed weapons to be able to spike their SC damage a bit higher since the amount of time to achieve full potency is also higher.

Ardor should be only one step in closing the gap between job class damage. RDM is already a very busy Job, and shouldn't be responsible for closing the damage gap of ALL job classes if the spell isn't area of affect and every DD job wants the spell thats one more buff that RDM is having to single target on multiple DD's that ALL want to perform at the highest level possible. At the least, please make Ardor Accession-able with a 5-10 minute duration.

ok, thats my tidbit. I'm sure there are holes in the thought process but I do strongly believe that no job should be on top by a large margin, all DD roles should be competing for the top DD role because of player skill, teamwork, gear, and experience. Adjustments should be made with evening out the playing field and letting players determine if they can be the top DD, regardless of Job.

[Smokenttp]

Ok so the original post stated quite specifically that the reason for any WS adjustments is because adding ardor's SC damage increase to the current SC damage of SA/TA dagger WS's would put it higher than the the Dev team wants to see, this is because ardor is based around the number of hits before WS activation. Thief triple attacks a lot, new gear has them Tripling even more frequently! An adjustment to reduce the SC damage possible with ardor in affect makes sense. I don't think anyone wants to be able to do 99k Skillchains on 130+ content it'll be over before it began. My tidbit take it for what its worth:

Dagger/Weaponskill Suggestion: adjust Rudra's storm's 2000-3000 tp mod down about 3.0 that would put it at approx. 12.0 ftp mod at 2000 and 16.5 ftp mod; those are still very high mods for the WS. which gives it similar mods, but still superior, to sword FTP mods. I.E. Savage Blade.

Perform similar tweaking of the other dagger weaponskills if necessary. I don't want to see DNC BRD or THF suddenly disappear from being invited to content. Dagger needed the power boost for a long time. If it needs balancing, keep the balancing of the weapon to a minimum. The same goes for SAM and Fudo. Adjust the WS slightly, but leave it wholly intact. The player base enjoys the power of these weaponskills!

After making these minor adjustments, Turn your attention to other weaponskills. Elemental Weaponskills: should be approached as a source of alternative damage for the weapon class, this could help various DD jobs to be able to perform effectively even when they are fighting a monster that is strong to their primary damage type. for example: Raiden thrust on Polearm could be adjusted for higher thunder based elemental Damage. Or you could always introduce new elemental Weaponskills for all the weapons, with modifiers that are consistent and effective replacement options to their physical counterparts; That would be fun.

Back on Topic, when reducing the power of a weapon keep the reduction to a minimum. while increasing the damage of other weapons to close the gap, be a bit more generous. If the adjustment over shoots the intended Balance reduce the power but conservatively until you achieve balance on all Weapons. This way the job power hierarchy is centered on the Abilities of the player and their ability to manipulate a Jobs abilities and traits, Not simply on the power of ANY single weaponskill. Everyone should be able to play and feel powerful, but for the large number of endgame players, which XI has, player skill and experience should allow ANY job to shine and out compete another job if used properly. A DRG used properly should be able to outperform a SAM and vice versa, or a DNC should be able to make a DRK cry, but it shouldn't be easy, it should rely on using the Job and its abilities effectively, I feel this form of game play is intended in current battle system but I don't feel like it's achieved. Players only use whatever Job currently has the easiest access to high levels of power, but everyone has their favorite job that they want to take and can't, because it doesn't have easy access to high levels of power comparable to the other powered up jobs.

Ardor Suggestion: If Possible; consider capping the SC potency for single handed weapons a bit lower than 2 handed weapons, I don't know if the game mechanics allow for such a differentiation. In theory, this would allow for single hander's to get full effect of the spell for their weapon class; while allowing 2- handed weapons to be able to spike their SC damage a bit higher since the amount of time to achieve full potency is also higher.

Ardor should be only one step in closing the gap between job class damage. RDM is already a very busy Job, and shouldn't be responsible for closing the damage gap of ALL job classes if the spell isn't area of affect and every DD job wants the spell thats one more buff that RDM is having to single target on multiple DD's that ALL want to perform at the highest level possible. At the least, please make Ardor Accession-able with a 5-10 minute duration.

ok, thats my tidbit. I'm sure there are holes in the thought process but I do strongly believe that no job should be on top by a large margin, all DD roles should be competing for the top DD role because of player skill, teamwork, gear, and experience. Adjustments should be made with evening out the playing field and letting players determine if they can be the top DD, regardless of Job.

kinda agree with this if you are going to nerf it keep it in an aceptable amount and dont forget about the other jobs who have acess to the same tools as well as they will also take a hit from it only one small addenum tough no job should be responsible for cosing gaps in damage for other jobs (not espcifically rdm altough i said previously it might be a good idea after thinkig about it troughly seemed a pretty bad way to handle things) , this gap should not exist in the first place you already have an diverse damage system physical divided in 3 categories magical in 9 (neutral elemental?) so thats the only thing that should be keeping jobs apart is the resistence to certain types of damage , in wich every job should have (already have but its cureently improperly balanced) an way to counter it being in form of equiping another weapon or just plain using elemental ws. the function of support jobs is not closing gaps but rather boosting overall damage.

[Ramzi]

I'd also like to point out that most RPG type games give dagger a crit multiplier to make up for how weak it is. Look at Dark Souls 2. Dagger is weak, but swings fast, doesn't use a ton of stamina, and when you do a backstab with it (TA/SA equivalent) it does insane damage. But positioning is everything here, and SATA is on a timer, to keep it balanced. So it's not like Dagger isn't working as intended, they just buffed it a bit too much. Also what about situations where a RDM isn't in the party? THF will be nerfed for no reason. Maybe changing the properties of Ardor itself would be a better solution than messing with the WS because of it.

[Dale]

Your reply and Machini's earlier reply to me, are why this forum has threads with 5000 thread views and only 100 thread replies. Players don't want to express opinions or relate their empirical experiences, or just engage in friendly casual chat on this forum because of the hostility and bitterness that is unleashed on perfectly innocent posts. I know many people who've quit this forum because of this.

And it is not BS either, at all. My WAR is powerful, but will do ws that are lower than my Thf Rudras, even though I have zero jobpoints and average gear on my Thf. Obviously there is some overlap and variation, but in terms of just hitting the ws button without any tactical modifiers, I see Rudras doing over 10k a lot and Upheaval doing 8k a lot.

Again, like I originally said, it is only my opinion, I feel it is strange to see this happen ingame, even allowing for videogame fantasy etc. it seems odd to me. And it goes against my decades of real-life RPG on actual battlefields with actual armor and actual weapons, when my group goes to the real-world D&D battle meets. They would laugh me out of town if I said I was going to vanquish a heavily armored Paladin using my pen-knife.

Just my opinion, and no need for the hostility. :mad:

I agree. It's probably the reason this forum has a lack or activity when compared to other game forums I've participated in.

You made a good point. Rudra's Storm offers high-end damage with little investment. Other jobs have to work much harder to accomplish similar numbers.

[Ulth]

Most videogames are unrealistic and tend to give small weapons extra power to make players happy, and you won't see that in realistic / historical / purist RPG etc. Its something the mainstream has adopted to make it so people can play their favourite class and favourite weapons, and still have a kill rate that rivals heavier weapons and more proficient battlefield jobs.

My problem with Rudras is not really about backstab / critical / laceration damage / SATA etc. it is about how I take my THF out in average 119 gear, and just roll out Rudras without food, without sneak attack, without any kind of tactical play, I just hit the WS while facing the mob and it does a one-hit attack for like 17000 damage. Then I go out on my WAR, which has far better gear than my THF, my WAR has 180 jobpoints, HQ food, berserk/warcry up, stacked DA and VIT etc. and see the Upheaval four-hit attack clock at 14500 damage.

And my issue with it is that it makes the game feel broken, when a one-hit attack from a low quality knife does more than a four-hit attack from a greataxe, when I have way better gear on WAR and skirmish gaxe with the dmg+34 aug, versus my absolute basic Thf gear. And again, this is not backstab or tactics or laceration or SA, it is just me facing the mob and hitting it with rudras and it > my WAR gaxe ws.

Very interesting point I would love to hear your opinions on the merits of apples versus oranges as well. Sounds like for these examples of weaponskill damages you used both at 3000 tp. Which really isn't a good measure of the two since from what I can tell the ftp of upheaval doesn't transfer across all 4 hits. So you effectively compared upheaval at it's worst efficiency to to rudra's at it's second best efficiency. What's even more funny is you are probably also using a target that you already have attack capped on making all the war atk boost abilities and HQ food a null point.

As for equipment and job points, I have at least 210 job points of thf, and the relic dagger. Want to know what that counts for? A whole lot of nothing. The only good job point category on thf is larceny duration, and that is so situational I can only think of using it for 10 extra seconds of mighty strikes on Brash Gramk-Droog. And my mandau currently sits in my mog house gathering dust because I use the second best dagger for unstacked rudra's, the shark dagger, probably the same one you use.

[FrankReynolds]

My problem with Rudras is not really about backstab / critical / laceration damage / SATA etc. it is about how I take my THF out in average 119 gear, and just roll out Rudras without food, without sneak attack, without any kind of tactical play, I just hit the WS while facing the mob and it does a one-hit attack for like 17000 damage. Then I go out on my WAR, which has far better gear than my THF, my WAR has 180 jobpoints, HQ food, berserk/warcry up, stacked DA and VIT etc. and see the Upheaval four-hit attack clock at 14500 damage.

And my issue with it is that it makes the game feel broken, when a one-hit attack from a low quality knife does more than a four-hit attack from a greataxe, when I have way better gear on WAR and skirmish gaxe with the dmg+34 aug, versus my absolute basic Thf gear. And again, this is not backstab or tactics or laceration or SA, it is just me facing the mob and hitting it with rudras and it > my WAR gaxe ws.

Since you're going to straight up lie, I'll go ahead and do that too. I don't think it's fair that I have to save up 3000 tp and then stack SA/TA just to hit a 20k+ rudras's, while meanwhile my war can just auto-attack and crit for 3-4k nonstop without even doing a weapon skill. It makes the game feel broken when my wars normal white damage is higher than my thfs weapon skills. They need to nerf war.

[Stompa]

I agree. It's probably the reason this forum has a lack or activity when compared to other game forums I've participated in.

You made a good point. Rudra's Storm offers high-end damage with little investment. Other jobs have to work much harder to accomplish similar numbers.

I'm glad other people have noticed similar things that I noticed, thankyou for this. :)

[FrankReynolds]

>BRD can sleep entire rooms full of mobs instantly, has the ability to buff party haste attack defense, and to impair enemy attacks etc., party movement speed up, and many other useful support role functions.

BRD will never be doing those things and dealing damage. The two roles are mutually exclusive and therefore irrelevant to the discussion.


>DNC can cure for 1000hp+ without using mp

This takes away their means of doing damage and renders them a support role. No one ever invites them to do this. Irrelevant to the conversation.


or risking interrupt

Unless they are paralyzed, amnesiaed, stunned, etc. Things which happen quite frequently on the front line and rarely on the back. But again, they will have Saber dance up if they are there to DD. If they don't, their damage will fall behind other DDS.


and without the danger of a mage job taking hate,

But with the danger of taking hate and / or dieing themselves. ALso just to make sure that you got it... they will have Saber dance up if they are there to DD. If they don't, their damage will fall behind other DDS.



has high evasion,

Nothing can be evasion tanked any more. Try again.



mob debuffs,

Again, eats into DD abilities while buffing other DDS and still doesn't warrant an invite.



dualwield,

Because they need it. They can't wield a GK.


party movement speed up,

Who cares?


party haste, etc.

Haste will be capped by support jobs rendering this useless. Try again.


>THF can obtain multi-million gil drops from mobs,

So can any other job.


pick locks, can steal enemy items/bonuses,

HAH HAH HAH! good one.



can steal enemy SP (including Manafont-Meteor),

Yes, that been so game changing... This is so funny. You are seriously killing me.



can flee,

I don't think that has been part of any strategy in like 5 years. Even then the strategy was flee and go die somewhere. You should do stand up.


blah blah blah...

>WAR can hit mobs and damage them and provoke and retaliation and massive double attack and massive critical hits and use any damage type and make any skill chain and rock massive defense and a bunch of other stuff.... Thats all.



So there's your apples and oranges right there. Bon appetit. If you still think its fair that those support role jobs have all those bonuses AND have a dagger WS that just pumps out 15k+ damage like its no big deal, while WAR has zero of those useful support abilities and has gaxe skills that hover around 8k a lot of the time, then obviously we have different understandings of game balance.

You do have a different understanding. See, I think that being able to shoot rainbows out of your behind doesn't matter at all if the only thing people want is a DD and you aren't it. None of that stuff you listed about these jobs matters in the least which is why no one was bringing them to events until they started doing better damage. And all the comparisons in the world won't change that fact. Support roles are already taken by bard, whm, rdm, geo and cor. No one wants a support thf or dnc and no one wants a DD bard.


Re; upheaval, I use it because it is consistent, Ukkos tends to veer around too much, also I think Upheaval is a cool WS and I never had any problems with it until my THF started spamming 10k+ while naked and facing the mob.

Yeah, and my level one war does 1,000,000 damage per hit while weakened.


Re; white damage, if you look at damage per round rather than per hit, WAR greataxe isn't really more than a THF with dual-wield plus triple-attack plus critical hit gear, or DNC/war with dualwield and critical hit gear, you are getting a similar amount to my WAR with its slow greataxe attacks. Also factor in high-evasion mobs, those are unforgiving for heavy weapons, if we miss we wait for ages to attack again, but with triple-attack dualwield daggers, if you miss you are hitting again before you even notice.

Sounds nice, but that's not how that works. a 50% hit rate is a 50% hit rate regardless of how fast you swing.


I never said I hate THF/BRD/DNC, I have played all those jobs for years, and I farmed Rudras on WOE dagger in 2011, long before the free login items/ lower NM respawn/#ofcoins requirement reductions, and back then we didn't have ilvl so the WOE mobs were just killing me all day long as I farmed the 300~ items.

So if anything I am a long term Rudra's user, dating back four years. I was just making a friendly comment, saying it doesnt seem right that this WS outperforms my Greataxe so consistently, on jobs that have access to powerful cures, horde lullaby, TH etc. and then ontop of all that these support jobs get a WS that is more powerful than a straight DD gets, when that DD job has no other abilities at all except doing damage.

Where were you 10 years ago when sneak attack -> viper bite was all the rage? Why weren't you screaming for nerfs then?

[Ulth]

I'm not going to talk about brd and dnc, because no one cares about brd's damage, and even if rudra's is nerfed into the ground dnc is still going to be doing better numbers than war and drk with Pyrrhic Kleos.

But you are really grasping at straws if you think placebo hunter and aura steal is enough for thf to be considered support instead of damage dealing. Warcry gives attack for the party, Bloodrage gives +20% crit rate to the party. Then there is tomahawk which lowers a mobs pdt by 25%. Ukko's Fury does slow, Full Break lowers the target's attack, defense, accuracy and evasion... Which one of these jobs were support again? Because it sounds a lot like that's what war does. Drk too what with all their enfeebling dark magic, and absorb attribute which is like aura steal only not tied to a 5 minute ja timer.

Thf is a damage dealing job. Or it originally was. One of the oldest tricks in the book was for thf, a tank, and another dd to do this. The tank would use a weaponskill. The DD would skillchain and pull hate away from the tank. Then the thf would close with a SATA off the tank for, (at the time) massive amounts of damage.

Back then getting 100 tp actually took about a minute, so everything worked out.

Then tp rates went up you could get 100 tp in half the time so thf alternated between sa and ta.

Then there was a long dark history for thf when it would just tag with th and then have to side on the side lines and be bored.

Now thf can actually contribute, and isn't the best DD, but is the best skillchain closer, as it should be.

I know that war has had some tough times too like when Ukko's got nerfed, but acro set can get +3% crit rate, and +3% crit damage on every peice, so might be something to look into.

Oh and the reason the OF is not very active is because there are other forums where people don't get banned for pointing out what is causing the fishing crash to happen. (nb4 banned for this post)

[Ramzi]

Most videogames are unrealistic and tend to give small weapons extra power to make players happy, and you won't see that in realistic / historical / purist RPG etc. Its something the mainstream has adopted to make it so people can play their favourite class and favourite weapons, and still have a kill rate that rivals heavier weapons and more proficient battlefield jobs.

My problem with Rudras is not really about backstab / critical / laceration damage / SATA etc. it is about how I take my THF out in average 119 gear, and just roll out Rudras without food, without sneak attack, without any kind of tactical play, I just hit the WS while facing the mob and it does a one-hit attack for like 17000 damage. Then I go out on my WAR, which has far better gear than my THF, my WAR has 180 jobpoints, HQ food, berserk/warcry up, stacked DA and VIT etc. and see the Upheaval four-hit attack clock at 14500 damage.

And my issue with it is that it makes the game feel broken, when a one-hit attack from a low quality knife does more than a four-hit attack from a greataxe, when I have way better gear on WAR and skirmish gaxe with the dmg+34 aug, versus my absolute basic Thf gear. And again, this is not backstab or tactics or laceration or SA, it is just me facing the mob and hitting it with rudras and it > my WAR gaxe ws.

Except that would literally never happen in end game content so why mention it at all? 17000 without stacked using average gear? No, just no. Stop lying to prove a point. My THF has good gear, and I've never done a 17k Rudra without SA or TA. It certainly isn't going to happen with average gear. Show me a screenshot of the battle log and I'll believe you but until then, I call 100% complete BS.

[Nebo]

I love it when people argue about job potential and THF needing nerfs that wouldn't know what a job's DD potential actually is if it kicked them in the groin and called their mother obscenities.

"My gimp THF spam 17K rudra to the face.....my WAR are 14k NOooooooooooooooooooooooooo" It's sad. There is a small army of players crying this nonsense.

Don't waste your breath trying to explain to them the math. SE is going to do what SE is going to do. Judging by their past responses regarding job balance considerations (solo and unbuffed situations/NOT endgame), I'd say its reasonable to assume the operating dev team making these "balance" changes isn't qualified in the least to do so. Nor do they make them based on actual numbers/tests.

Really, SE? "Skill Chain damage is unbalanced....let's add a spell that boosts SC damage even further and nerf THF WS damage into the ground!" /SElogic

THF WS damage is not the problem. In fact, we really need that WS damage to keep up with other melee. Our melee damage is not great and unstacked WS at 1000% tp are also comparatively weak.

To get big numbers, mr THF has to hold tp past 1000 (other DD's dont), position itself behind a constantly moving monster or player (other DD's dont) and wait ~35 seconds (possible more average over time due to missses and other considerations) between uses of Sa/Ta (other DD's don't).

What you get, is big numbers much less often. Higher individual WS numbers less often =/= higher total WS damage. Whereas other DD can spam WS at the haste cap. Haste does not do the same thing for THF WS damage that it does for other melee.

The ONLY situation where THF cosistently outdamages other DDs, is when they can close dark/light after holding TP, and you have to then attribute all that SC damage to the THF (which you really shouldn't becuase it requires other players for both the WS and the positioning).

SKILLCHAIN damage is what needs addressed. Not THF WS damage. This update is like putting a bandaid over a shotgun wound. Nerfing THF WS damage and making it depend on RDM for Ardor to close SC's is a mistake that will push the job back to irrelevance. You should not do this.

GG, FFXI, GG.

[Stompa]

Except that would literally never happen in end game content so why mention it at all? 17000 without stacked using average gear? No, just no. Stop lying to prove a point. My THF has good gear, and I've never done a 17k Rudra without SA or TA. It certainly isn't going to happen with average gear. Show me a screenshot of the battle log and I'll believe you but until then, I call 100% complete BS.

It was on La Theine Leige, when I was helping my friend farm empyrean items. I was there to help, because helping people is what I spend most of my FFXI time doing. Because I'm a helpful friendly player, or a "liar" and all the other cheap nasty insults that you and the other uptight hostile FFXI Forum characters call me, just for making a passing comment about my own opinion based on my actual experiences.

It was 17k with reforged af1 set, and alluvion dagger, with no augments on it. I think the atmas were probably crit and the TP was not 3000. I don't have screenshots. I don't have photos of me being born either, does that mean I don't exist?

The problem is that when you people have an agenda, in this case preserving your broken freaky wacked-out off the scale Rudras damage, and you get really hostile when anybody seems to have a different opinion. That is the problem. It is not the opinions of others that are the source of conflict, but the lengths you will go to to protect your precious Rudras from criticism.

I see Rudras do 10k+ all day long without SA, and similarly I see Upheaval do 6~9k all day. So that is what I am seeing, and then you can go and spin on it can't you.

[Kassaiemi]

It was on La Theine Leige, when I was helping my friend farm empyrean items. I was there to help, because helping people is what I spend most of my FFXI time doing. Because I'm a helpful friendly player, or a "liar" and all the other cheap nasty insults that you and the other uptight hostile FFXI Forum characters call me, just for making a passing comment about my own opinion based on my actual experiences.

It was 17k with reforged af1 set, and alluvion dagger, with no augments on it. I think the atmas were probably crit and the TP was not 3000. I don't have screenshots. I don't have photos of me being born either, does that mean I don't exist?

I don't particularly have a horse in this race beyond using DNC to farm Salvage or solo old content (and I'll probably get by just fine with spamming Pyrrhic and Evisceration if Rudra's gets fully gutted), but seriously, you're comparing Abyssea content to "endgame"? Throw out the oranges, this is comparing apples to a Ford Model T.

I mean, I can force 40k Rudra's on Megamaw Mikey with Building/Climactic flourishes and 3k TP. I also have 273 DEX, +50% crit chance, +60% crit damage (Razed Ruins, Gnarled Horn, Sanguine Scythe), and a pDIF that isn't exactly unfavorable compared to say, Tojil's 1800 defense. Nevermind the fact that the level difference calculation is much more in your favor in Abyssea than it is in Woh or on a 128 Unity NM.

So, yeah, let's nerf Rudra's because I can steamroll old content? I'm not going to deny it's a good WS, but your example is pretty bad.

Edit for overestimation (was basing my stats off my RNG, which is much better geared) and picture.
http://puu.sh/gDZgU/105bcac3ae.png

I'd also like to point out that my average hit in Abyssea is ~600 damage with this particular combination, and at 58 TP per hit, that means I have to do approximately 34000 damage with auto attacks just to get to that stacked Rudra's that takes five finishing moves and a 90 second cooldown in the form of Climactic Flourish (before you say (3000/58)*600 is less than that, I also have to spend ~4 AA worth of TP on steps).

[Ramzi]

It was on La Theine Leige, when I was helping my friend farm empyrean items. I was there to help, because helping people is what I spend most of my FFXI time doing. Because I'm a helpful friendly player, or a "liar" and all the other cheap nasty insults that you and the other uptight hostile FFXI Forum characters call me, just for making a passing comment about my own opinion based on my actual experiences.

It was 17k with reforged af1 set, and alluvion dagger, with no augments on it. I think the atmas were probably crit and the TP was not 3000. I don't have screenshots. I don't have photos of me being born either, does that mean I don't exist?

The problem is that when you people have an agenda, in this case preserving your broken freaky wacked-out off the scale Rudras damage, and you get really hostile when anybody seems to have a different opinion. That is the problem. It is not the opinions of others that are the source of conflict, but the lengths you will go to to protect your precious Rudras from criticism.

I see Rudras do 10k+ all day long without SA, and similarly I see Upheaval do 6~9k all day. So that is what I am seeing, and then you can go and spin on it can't you.

I assumed you weren't going to use Abyssea as a measuring point for how OP a WS can be ^_^; ESPECIALLY if you are using RR atma, which.... why wouldn't you be? This totally distorts the data, and it's also not end game content which I was referring to in my post. Do an unstacked Rudras for 17k on an incursion boss, or a Difficult battlefield, or basically any Adoulin NM and then you can make a case for it being broken.

LOL.... Abyssea.

Also I didn't intend to come off as hostile, but when I see people make posts like yours where they are talking about rolling over NM's and doing huge damage with no effort or gear, I look at my own results and think... well what am I doing wrong? Am I missing the secret sauce? WTF? My THF has really good gear. No R/E/M but that's about all I'm missing (oh and I'm not spending 20 mil on 2 ramuh+1 rings- I'll leave that for the suckers) but you get my point. I macro in all my Crit dmg + gear for rudras, and on a 3000TP WS I might see 10k... maybe, depending on the target defense. So when you say you do 70% more than the best I've seen, sure it will make me question it.

Now if you had said it was in Abyssea from the beginning, you wouldn't have even got a response from me. Context....

[Stompa]

No I never said I was talking about endgame, in w/e context you want to define that as. My friend said to me the other day, "the trouble with endgame, is it doesn't exist." which made me laugh. I like laughing, I'm a happy laughing cripple girl, who doesn't want all the venomous s___ that I get on this forum.

In my original post here, a short one paragraph post, with jokes and friendly happy fun stuff, I said basically I PERSONALLY have trouble understanding how a dagger would do more than a great axe, ask a lumberjack if he wants to cut down trees with a knife, etc. It was a casual fun comment, which on any other forum would be taken as such. But not here oh no.

Then I got a full page of hatred about how nobody could afford cavalry horses in history, etc. and Frank dissecting my posts into tiny contextless sections instead of replying in a Grown Up way.

And all I was saying, is I see Rudras doing more than Upheaval.

I see this in Aby, and I see this outside Aby. I see it in Dyna, and in VW etc. I see it a lot in my farming jobpoints. Rudras does do more than Upheaval, a lot. And this seems odd to me because knives are like little mosquito stingers, and my Svarga is like a bus loaded full of big people. And my point, which was just a friendly and casual observation, got all this mad hostility.

You know what, if SE made Rudra's do 500k base damage tomorrow, I would not care. Not one bit. I would still play my WAR coz she looks funny in her big helmet bashing stuff with that fat gaxe. It makes me happy to watch it. So I don't care, I only play THF under duress when my friends say "bring your THF." I will play WAR and PUP, and I don't care about Rudras nerf or if they make it even more powerful I was just saying it always seems odd to me when a dagger does more than a greataxe, and for this I got the full flame grilled trollburgers menu.

[Crevox]

I understand some people here are not so happy about Rudra's Storm getting changed, but there's really no need for hostility at all.

Can we please discuss this maturely and kindly? Stompa is one of the most positive people here; just because you might disagree with something she posts doesn't mean you need to jump down her throat. Let's try to be constructive.

[Kassaiemi]

I understand some people here are not so happy about Rudra's Storm getting changed, but there's really no need for hostility at all.

Can we please discuss this maturely and kindly? Stompa is one of the most positive people here; just because you might disagree with something she posts doesn't mean you need to jump down her throat. Let's try to be constructive.

If I come across as hostile it's not my intent, I'd rather not see DNC and THF fade back into oblivion because people are unhappy that their large numbers are smaller than some well geared DNC's large numbers. And using Abyssea as a benchmark of balance is quite silly no matter how you cut it.


No I never said I was talking about endgame, in w/e context you want to define that as. My friend said to me the other day, "the trouble with endgame, is it doesn't exist." which made me laugh. I like laughing, I'm a happy laughing cripple girl, who doesn't want all the venomous s___ that I get on this forum.

In my original post here, a short one paragraph post, with jokes and friendly happy fun stuff, I said basically I PERSONALLY have trouble understanding how a dagger would do more than a great axe, ask a lumberjack if he wants to cut down trees with a knife, etc. It was a casual fun comment, which on any other forum would be taken as such. But not here oh no.

Then I got a full page of hatred about how nobody could afford cavalry horses in history, etc. and Frank dissecting my posts into tiny contextless sections instead of replying in a Grown Up way.

And all I was saying, is I see Rudras doing more than Upheaval.

I see this in Aby, and I see this outside Aby. I see it in Dyna, and in VW etc. I see it a lot in my farming jobpoints. Rudras does do more than Upheaval, a lot. And this seems odd to me because knives are like little mosquito stingers, and my Svarga is like a bus loaded full of big people. And my point, which was just a friendly and casual observation, got all this mad hostility.

You know what, if SE made Rudra's do 500k base damage tomorrow, I would not care. Not one bit. I would still play my WAR coz she looks funny in her big helmet bashing stuff with that fat gaxe. It makes me happy to watch it. So I don't care, I only play THF under duress when my friends say "bring your THF." I will play WAR and PUP, and I don't care about Rudras nerf or if they make it even more powerful I was just saying it always seems odd to me when a dagger does more than a greataxe, and for this I got the full flame grilled trollburgers menu.

Other people were talking about endgame and you jumped in with your 17k Rudra's, you can understand the logical leap we collectively made, yes?

I understand wanting to play a job you enjoy, that's why I'm not a fan of the popular majority's (vocal minority's?) cries for a Rudra's nerf, as my best friend dearly loves playing Dancer, but nobody ever wants a Dancer. They see that the Dancer does less damage than their MNKs, their THFs, their SAMs, and that's enough reason for them not to bring a DNC. Nevermind that the DNC can pop off a Divine Waltz when healing gets really tight and prevent a wipe, or pop fan dance and tank if necessary, or, or, or. They just see that a THF parses higher and that's all that matters to them. That's why I don't want to see dagger jobs crippled just because "it's funny that a knife hits harder than a two handed axe." But hey, they're (supposedly) not touching Pyrrhic, so maybe DNC will come out on top anyways.

As a slight aside, it seems to me more that WAR needs buffs than other jobs need to be nerfed, since the fact alone that SAM can self skillchain with great ease makes it a far better job than WAR, barring the job being completely gutted. And there's not very much incentive to bring a WAR right now unless they're topping the DPS charts, because the job has very little utility outside of "bash face with axe."

[Nebo]

It was on La Theine Leige, when I was helping my friend farm empyrean items. I was there to help, because helping people is what I spend most of my FFXI time doing. Because I'm a helpful friendly player, or a "liar" and all the other cheap nasty insults that you and the other uptight hostile FFXI Forum characters call me, just for making a passing comment about my own opinion based on my actual experiences.

One of two things is true here:

A) You are arguing dishonestly about weaponskill damage balance by citing Abyssea numbers...

or

B) You actually think that this is a relevant argument for the discussion at hand, and are therefor unqualified to be speaking about job balance considerations in the first place.


Either way, it is harmful to the discussion at hand and *hostile* to the THF job since it is getting nerfed into the ground based on the outcry of the uninformed/uneducated/unqualified masses.

PS: This discussion isn't just about Rudra. They are nerfing them all. Even sharkbite. Let that sink in....THF is not even going to be current level SHARK BITE strong after this nerf. Are you people serious with this garbage?

[Finuve]

WAR, SAM, DRK, DRG

Many jobs dont have utility outside of bash face. SAM skillchaining doesnt somehow give them more utility, its just extension of their damage.
DRG I guess has some extra survivability

DRK is back onto the lowest place on the totem pole. Its a lot of fun getting stuck on my Tsurumaru SAM instead of my relic DRK

[Nebo]

WAR, SAM, DRK, DRG

Many jobs dont have utility outside of bash face. SAM skillchaining doesnt somehow give them more utility

Actually it does. SC's are a grouping mechanic that were designed to provide synergy with mages and melee. Giving mages more MACC and damage is most certainly utility.

All of those jobs you listed also have many more relevant utlity options than you are arguing (especially that relic DRK). Which is either dishonest, uninformed or biased.

See the pattern/problem here?

[Nebo]

My oppinion is that chicken babies are born from oak tree parents (hatched from acorns). That doesn't seem right to me since birds also live in the trees. We should cut down the forest.

[Nebo]

There is help available for you, specially-trained caring people who want to help you get well.

That is comforting. God knows I need it.

I wonder if there is someone that could help you actually understand the math? Or game mechanics? Or endgame job balance issues? Or any of the subjects you are commenting on.

[Mooserocka]

I'm still newer to the game. I decided to main dancer. I didn't know about rudra right away. I didn't get invited to anything. Now that I have rudra I'm invited to stuff. I'm hoping they don't kill it and it's still viable. Dnc will prob never be in anything now. Without rudra my damage was horrible. On dnc rudra isn't an op ability with how high the cd is for climactic. This really is not right for people that love dancer and bard. I was getting tired of seeing 80 percent of the community as thieves. Maybe for thief it was needed but for dancer and bard we're screwed.

[Kassaiemi]

WAR, SAM, DRK, DRG

Many jobs dont have utility outside of bash face. SAM skillchaining doesnt somehow give them more utility, its just extension of their damage.
DRG I guess has some extra survivability

DRK is back onto the lowest place on the totem pole. Its a lot of fun getting stuck on my Tsurumaru SAM instead of my relic DRK

Skillchains are tremendous, SAMs being able to reliably self skillchain is why everyone does Yorcia with 2x SAMs, because the Light chain removes Wopket's aura quickly and easily (and he's weak to slashing, but). SAMs also get every L2 skillchain property, so they can chain anything any time easily, and as was mentioned earlier, a SAM with sufficient TP generation can indefinitely L2 skillchain. Or two SAMs with slightly less TP gen can do the same, if coordinated. Honestly I think Machini's theory that THF WSes are being nerfed precisely because THFs can infinitely chain like SAMs can has merit, as far as we can tell there's no actual cap to how high the bonus damage for a skill chain can go -- everything dies too quickly.

Additionally, SAMs also have the ability to use Namas/Apex Arrow, adding to their versatility on some fights like Pil, for instance.


I'm still newer to the game. I decided to main dancer. I didn't know about rudra right away. I didn't get invited to anything. Now that I have rudra I'm invited to stuff. I'm hoping they don't kill it and it's still viable. Dnc will prob never be in anything now. Without rudra my damage was horrible. On dnc rudra isn't an op ability with how high the cd is for climactic. This really is not right for people that love dancer and bard. I was getting tired of seeing 80 percent of the community as thieves. Maybe for thief it was needed but for dancer and bard we're screwed.

Fortunately, at 1k TP, Pyrrhic Kleos with Terpsichore is better damage than Rudra's at 1k TP currently, so it'll be even better after whatever nerfs we get. Unfortunately, that means going through the work and effort to get a Terpsichore.

[Ulth]

I understand some people here are not so happy about Rudra's Storm getting changed, but there's really no need for hostility at all.

Can we please discuss this maturely and kindly? Stompa is one of the most positive people here; just because you might disagree with something she posts doesn't mean you need to jump down her throat. Let's try to be constructive.

Yeah and Stompa just happens to agree with you. At best she just doesn't know what she is talking about, and at worst she is intentionally misguiding people. When comparing her two ws damages she listed all the things she was using to buff her war, and then claimed her thf was gimp and under geared. Now Pillager's isn't best in slot, but it is far from under geared, and believe it or not, but the +50 dex from atma of the razed ruins is quite the boon when using a ws with an 80% dex mod. Now I'm willing to believe that she isn't intentionally lying and just doesn't know that attack caps at a 2.25 ratio, and that her atma was giving her the stats most crucial to rudra's storm damage, but these still invalidate the point she was trying to make.

Anywho, I don't actually know much about how much damage war is doing at the moment, so I went to the ffxiah guide for war, aka the people who do. The first pages are out of date, so if you want to get a good feel for war damage you need to go to the last few pages. Turns out acro armor is a huge buff to war, probably drk and drg too. Drg was already hot on sam's tail, but now so are war and drk. So your war is gimp, not your thf. Thf doesn't need a nerf. Thf is only best DD is there are other jobs to open skillchains for it to close, and that's only if you attribute the skillchain damage to the thf and not as part of some group effort.

[Nebo]

If you don't understand why people are arguing with you, I'll explain.

You are using this subjective, somewhat flawed observation:


all I said was my Rudras were hitting for larger numbers than my Upheaval, quite often.

To declare this, as an objective, universal truth:


daggers do more damage than gaxes.

Forgetting the fact that you arent taking into account WS frequency, Melee damage, buff levels, targets, your own skill level and gear variances relative to job maximums, etc and focusing only on singlular WS numbers....you cannot make staments like that and expect people to take them seriiously. Regardless of whether or not you are right, the argument is flawed.

For example: My BLM regularly out damages my SAM. Therefor Magic Spells > Great Katana damage. I feel this is not right that some silly spells should do more damage than sharp pointy things. BLM needs a nerf.

[Nebo]

Again, I was posting my own experiences.

Except you weren't. You were using your personal experiences to say that daggers (in general) deal more damage than great axes and that this (general) situation doesn't make sense. One is personal, one is not. Can you really not see the difference?

And just as an aside, you are not being attacked. Only your arguments. Regardless of any retorts from your end implying that I need help ::D (THAT would be a personal character attack. Calling someone a patronizing person is a personal character attack, etc).

I don't know you, you don't know me. I'm not overly interested in your oppinion of my character and neither should you be.

[Ulth]

Or, worse still, you are a very very patronising person.

Or maybe all I said was my Rudras were hitting for larger numbers than my Upheaval, quite often. And that I felt on a personal level that it doesn't make sense that daggers do more damage than gaxes.

If you want to keep dragging this on and on, I'm happy to repeat the above points another hundred times, if that is how you get your jollies, lets do it. My initial comment was just a casual fun comment about how I dont see how daggers can routinely cause more harm than a gaxe, I did not say ; "SE please kill Rudras Storm." I have never suggested anything of the sort. I just casually voiced my opinion, and six pages later I'm still getting insulted by really arrogant and patronising comments. Notice that at no point have I speculated on the intelligence or worthiness of anyone else, and yet that is exactly what you just did. How arrogant.

Thanks patronizing was the tone I was aiming for. I could have been a lot meaner in my replies, but please feel free to keep waving around your victim card. And as it turns out great axes routinely cause more damage than daggers. And here I was thinking it was just great katanas, polearms, and swords. Dnc still has great axes beat, but that is with Pyrrhic Kleos not Rudra's.

Here is my point. Thf does it's damage less often, but has higher ws numbers. That's its special thing. Which means bigger skillchain closers. That is why they are worried about adding the spell ardor, because it plays right into thfs hand. They think adding ardor to rdm will make it more desired as a job, but if to do it they nerf thf it will just make both jobs less desired, because without thf no one will want ardor anyway.

[Manux]

stop crying you fan lovers for thf we all knew this was going to happen.

[Ataraxia]

Hail, adventurers! Matsui here with an update for you.

I would like to inform you that, based on your feedback, we have begun to consider balance adjustments for melee jobs, specifically the thief and samurai, in the March version update.

We are currently looking at adjusting balance in the following two ways:



I would like to share with you the thought process behind these adjustments.


The addition of Ardor
In our preview of job adjustments several days prior, we made mention of a new magic spell known as “Ardor.” We elected to add this spell in order to decrease the gaps in damage dealt between the various melee jobs.

As noted in that topic, Ardor increases skillchain damage based on the number of successful melee hits up until the time the weapon skill is activated.

Jobs that often go for long periods of time without using weapon skills will receive stronger bonuses, thereby decreasing the damage gap that currently exists.



The adjustment of certain dagger weapon skills
One topic keeps popping up where we hear players discussing the thief: skillchain damage when using weapon skills with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

These skills are particularly effective in content such as Wanted battles, where it‘s possible for thieves to accumulate TP in advance and when combat ends in a short period of time, but we believe that this is one of the job’s strengths.

Not all content enables players to accumulate TP in advance the way Wanted battles do, and other melee classes are competitive with thieves in extended combat scenarios.

As such, we wish to avoid adjusting Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, as doing so would be tantamount to destroying part of the thief job’s identity.

However, in its current state thief damage output is on par with or even surpasses that of other melee jobs even in long duration combat, and upon looking at melee jobs as a whole, we cannot deny that thieves are located at the top of the charts in a wide variety of content.

Ardor has an incredibly strong synergy with thieves, who autoattack quite frequently, and thus we expect that their skillchain damage would increase to numbers even higher than they currently are. As such, we believe it necessary to somewhat reduce the potency or certain dagger weaponskills in order to maintain balance with other jobs.

We are currently considering adjusting the following four weaponskills.



These adjustments are meant to normalize damage between melee jobs, and there are some adjustments that can be viewed as nerfs when taken on the individual job level, so we wished to communicate these details to you in advance as we continue to thoroughly discuss this matter.



hello I like to share this video with Akihiko_Matsui, Dev team and all FFXI community. This is not my video but i found them in youtube. Since akihiko matsui take people opinion about thief seriously than maybe these video will open his eye more.


Kamihr Drifts Delve 1-5 + Utkux 8-18-2014[/B]

18-22 minute Clear 6/6 SAM, MNK, BRD, COR, BLM, WHM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcUlB5f_ELw


I don't think a Thief can clear that in a short amount of time.


Yorcia Weald Delve 1 - 5 + Wopket 6-20-2014

Clear 20 minute 4/6 SAM, BRD, WHM, WHM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_60Fermz30


As you can see in that video SAM is extremely good. Fudo, Fudo, Fudo spam seems to be a lot better than THF. So if a THF can do that in less than 20 minute than please do and Nerf it but I highly doubt it.

Japanese group SAM, DRK, SCH, BRD, COR, WHM clear that in less than 15 minute but don't have links since maybe it was taken down. :/



Now for the best video in the internet have to offer! =)


Delve Yorcia Weald 1-5 + Wopket 3-14-2015

Clear less than 12 minute. 4/6 SMN, GEO, RDM, RUN


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvqyMyZM1qY


Thank you for the recent update February because some job do amazing things. Mythic Geo and Mythic SMN you gonna love them.

Since job like RNG, DRG, THF, DNC share Piercing and they nerf Thief so I guess that means RNG and DRG will be at the top dmg of the list. PUP and BST recently got an update and no one knows how strong those job are but I'm sure they are better than a thief in Solo. It's true that a THF does do really well in wanted battle but those are 15 minute timer to kill an NM. The question I have for the dev team is can a THF or DNC clear the new delve content in that amount of time less than 20 minute?

[scaevola]

I'm still newer to the game. I decided to main dancer. I didn't know about rudra right away. I didn't get invited to anything. Now that I have rudra I'm invited to stuff. I'm hoping they don't kill it and it's still viable. Dnc will prob never be in anything now. Without rudra my damage was horrible. On dnc rudra isn't an op ability with how high the cd is for climactic. This really is not right for people that love dancer and bard. I was getting tired of seeing 80 percent of the community as thieves. Maybe for thief it was needed but for dancer and bard we're screwed.

Evisceration and PK aren't getting nerfed, 7 FMs mean you can close every self-sc with Striking Flourish, and Charis Casaque is getting an ilvl version. DNC is going to be fine.

[Nebo]

You posted a box with only the comment about trees laying eggs, nothing on-topic, just gibberish.

I just figured if everyone else was doing it, I should follow suit.

It actually explained in detail my whacky oppinions about where chicken babies come from and how that situation is not balanced due to the fact that most birds live in the trees anyway. This clearly made no sense to me so the only logical conclusion I could come up with was to cut down the forest to correct the imbalance.

Truthfuly, that post directly relates to this thread (possibly more so than any argument you have made thus far).


And calling somebody patronising, when they are being patronising is not an insult

Calling someone you believe to be an a**hole an "a**hole" is still tossing an insult in thier direction.

[Ulth]

That isn't something to proud of. Being friendly to other players is far better.

We can all be mean, but I would prefer to save my mean side for people that really deserve it in real-life, rather than fellow gamers who are also complete strangers on the net. To just toss out insults and proclaim that you have the capacity to be far meaner to me, is just nasty. You don't know me at all and yet you feel you have the right to insult me and patronise me. Your most recent was the line about me waving a victim card, which is hurtful, if you knew me in real life then you would regret saying those words to me, for sure. Because I am a real victim (by any standards), but I go to work everyday with a cheerful grin and don't wave any victim cards.

But I know two dozen people from my friends / LS group, people who used to post on this forum and they do not post here now, and the reason is because of the pedantic, nit-picking, spiteful childishness, and breathtaking arrogant behaviour towards total strangers.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/02/violin-steve-buscemi.gif

[Crevox]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/46265-%E8%B5%A4%E3%81%AE%E6%96%B0%E9%AD%94%E6%B3%95%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%80%E3%83%BC%E3%81%A8%E3%80%81%E4%BE%8D%E3%81%A8%E3%80%81%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E3%83%95%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6%E3%80%82?p=543839#post543839

New post from Matsui, we can expect an official translation soon, but my summary I am getting from it:

-The weaponskill update was supposed to increase the variety of weaponskills used. Rudra's Storm became too strong, and it is difficult to balance because of it. Thus, it should be reduced in power slightly.
-Dancer weaponskill damage became second only to Thief, despite being a supportive job. There are also some comments about Bard on the same topic.
-Notes about Samurai I don't feel comfortable stating due to being unsure, plus ardor, Red Mage, and skillchain damage.
-Because Vagary is being implemented this update, doing the changes at the same time was the best choice, so that the difficulty of the content would not change after the nerfs.
-Warrior will be looked at with adjustments to job abilities and traits, Dark Knight will be looked at for new abilities. They are planning on increasing the power of magic bursts in the March version update, and add a new ability to Black Mage at some point to help its damage.

Do not take this as 100% accurate. Wait for an official translation before flipping.

[Protey]

yea I looked at it on google translate. It looks like ardor is going to be a level 64 spell. He also seemed to be saying something about changing ardor to be an enfeebling spell instead of an enhancing spell. Also it seems that the bonus of ardor will be of using two different weapons (no self skillchaining).

"New Ada is a going to be the effect of bonus to about cooperation damage often persons and weapons species that participate in the collaboration ride, other players rather than continue the cooperation alone, damage when it is in conjunction with other weapons species I will now increase. (this is the part where it seems you have to have two different weapons)

Available job, there is no change to the learning level, is expected to red Mage becomes available learning at Lv64.

In addition, from strengthening magic to the party members, because of the plan to change to weakening magic with a certain period of time to effect monster,
Have gotten feedback, than red Mage will have done the call back each time of cooperation?
Please be assured about the concern that. (this is the part where it seems they want to change it to enfeebling magic)

However, by this change, implementation of Ada in one version up late expected from March version up,
In March version up time, it is scheduled to be carried out in advance only adjustment of weapon skills.

It will be in the form of so-called weak only adjustment is preceded, Please let me tell you this intention in the next."

[Nebo]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-%28NO-DISCUSSION%29?p=6374361&viewfull=1#post6374361

Unofficial BG translation

The tests performed by the development team has shown us that Samurais are very powerful damage dealers who can in many cases exceed other jobs. However, the weapon skill Tachi: Fudo varies greatly in performance depending on the attack/defense ratio against the monster, carries certain risks with the need to stand in front of the monster for damage bonuses, etc, meaning Samurais wanting to push the weapon skill do its full potential will need lots of support from their parties. (Fudo is incredibly powerful against enemies lower level than the player, however our foremost goal is to balance high level content)

Between this statement and the one about INT/MND...man they are REALLY out of touch with the game play. The current dev team really needs to consult players that know how these things work.

Honestly, do you really think that people are complaining that Fudo is over powered in low level content? You guys really need to start testing these things with endgame support enhancements with BRD COR GEO RDM, etc. 95% of endgame content is played under those conditions. As a damage dealer you are weighted by your job's damage potential under support buffs. This is specifically why pet jobs are so bad and why pre Rudra's buff THF couldnt compete in damage under high haste values, even if the THF can WS for high numbers every ~35 seconds.

In endgame content there is ALWAYS food and support role jobs used that enhance attack, delay reduction and enfeebles monsters defenses to the point that other jobs cannot compete with Samurai. You also need to consider that Fudo spam is one of the weaker tactics. You need to look at SAM's soloing a 5 step light Skillchain under these support enhancements.

Please reconsider your position and consult with people that play the game and know how it works.

If I were you, I would consider even removing the ability to self skillchain altogether and possibly adjust skillchain properties of certain WS to encourage a wider variety of jobs to complete skillchains. It should be a strategic, job selection, party cooperation mechanic don't you think?

[Ulth]

Kincard translated it well for those interested in reading. http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-%28NO-DISCUSSION%29?p=6374361&viewfull=1#post6374361

What a joke. Fudo is fine because sam needs help capping attack? like the same couldn't be said of every other job. Also they have to worry about their positional based bonus, Overwhelm. I can't imagine how hard it must be for them.

Well I tired. I tried to let them know the truth about thf's dps, but it seems the misinformation has made it's way all the way to the top. Hopefully vagary will have a TH based drop system so I can still go. Back to tagging and sitting around doing nothing.

[Camate]

I'm liking the adjustments (yea new enhancing spell for RDM!), like the set enfeebling duration of enfeebles, what I don't get is why is the potency of Blind based on MND? That is an INT enfeeble. Or is SE making it so magic accuracy is based on INT and potency on MND?

We originally had plans to change the way the system works by changing the properties of Blind so that MND would affect its potency. The basis of this change was to reduce the amount of equipment you need to procure to make enfeebling spells more effective. However, after giving consideration to other factors, such as the need for INT for magical accuracy, we've decided to push back this adjustment as it would cause players to need both MND and INT to boost the efficacy of Blind.

[Nebo]

Delve Yorcia Weald 1-5 + Wopket 3-14-2015

Clear less than 12 minute. 4/6 SMN, GEO, RDM, RUN


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvqyMyZM1qY


Thank you for the recent update February because some job do amazing things. Mythic Geo and Mythic SMN you gonna love them.


This just in...I just watched this video.....HOLY CRAP!

SMN is the new god of everything. 99999 flaming crush and 99999 light Skillchain (display cap) one shotting delve 2 NMs? Whaaaaaaaat!? They killed Wopket in ~8 seconds. What are my eyes seeing?


Yeah THF definitely needs a nerf. :rolleyes:

[Malthar]

All I see is that Papesse uses windower and you just told on him.

[Nebo]

All I see is that Papesse uses windower and you just told on him.

I didnt post the video (he's obviously not that concerned about it posting videos to youtube), but if that is all you saw, you need your eyes checked :eek:

[Ophannus]

The way it should be is, if you let SAM have strong SC potential, then let WAR and DRK have high WS damage, and DRG have high WS frequency. Every DD should specialize in one or two aspects of damage, yet SAM specializes in all of them with no weakness. For example. DRG has pretty high WS frequency due to Jumps, but DRG has flaws in WS attack power. WAR and DRK have decent WS power but gain TP slower compared to SAM and DRG. SAM weapon skills harder, more frequently and skillchains better. You need to bring other DDs' WS power above and beyond Samurai's -- especially WAR and DRK as they are jobs that sacrifice defense and/or HP for increased power. The concept should be RISK=REWARD. WAR and DRK use risky abilities like Berserk and Last Resort to increase their power but risk taking hate and dying. SAM WS just as hard, if not harder than DRK and WAR, but have no penalties to defense or HP and Hasso and Hagakure don't produce the same kind of volatile enmity as Soul Eater and Last Resort do. WAR and DRK should be glass cannons that when their abilities are used, have the strongest attack power and WS damage in the game. SAM should have weaker WS in comparison because they can WS much more frequently and skillchain better. DRG should be somewhere in between as they have poor skillchain weapon skills but they have pet bonuses.


Long story, short:
SAM: Leave as is.
DRK: Increase Scythe and Greatsword power, predominantly 1-hit WS so they have similar risks as Fudo(chance to miss completely), Souleater potency increased, Last Resort potency increased. High Risk=High Reward.
WAR: Increased attack power from Berserk, like +40-45%, increased power of Retraint. Maybe a trait or JA that allows WS to ignore some defense.
DRG: Abolish Drakesbane's attack penalty. It has a 4.0 modifier with a small chance to crit, the -20% attack penalty it has is much too harsh, lower high jump timers and increase potency and frequency of Conserve TP. Maybe add in a job ability that allows additional hits of multi-hit weapon skills to give the same TP as the first hit, 5min recast. It would harken back to the days of when DRG could gain back 60-70% TP from Penta Thrust.

Higher delay weapon types: Scythe, Gaxe, Great Sword, Polearm should have stronger Weapon Skills than Great Katanas. Great Katana and by extension SAM's role should be moderate melee DPS damage with powerful(but not the best) weapon skills and high skilchain prowess. WAR and DRK should have powerful WS on par with Fudo, but when using JAs that increase risk like Berserk/Last Resort/Soul Eater, damage should be UNPARALLELED. DRG's WS should be stronger than Samurais but weaker than Warrior and Dark Knights, given that Polearms are weaker than Great Axes and Scythes and can't Skillchain as well, yet DRGs have other tools like hate reduction and a pet.

[Manux]

This just in...I just watched this video.....HOLY CRAP!

SMN is the new god of everything. 99999 flaming crush and 99999 light Skillchain (display cap) one shotting delve 2 NMs? Whaaaaaaaat!? They killed Wopket in ~8 seconds. What are my eyes seeing?


Yeah THF definitely needs a nerf. :rolleyes:

because of one smn you saw on youtube and now you want a nerf for smn lol (lets not forget that smn is a Mythic user)
Is this guy for real we saw a lot more thf that are overpowered compared to smn.
Its ok if we see a drk/war/drg on youtube will nerf it as well :rolleyes:

[Nebo]

because of one smn you saw on youtube and now you want a nerf for smn lol

Is this guy for real we saw alot more thf that are overpowered compare to smn.

Where did I ask for a SMN nerf? Also when we talk about job nerfs, its about job potential. I'm happy to point out that the THF job (mythic or otherwise) cannot do that kind of damage on that content level and that no one is crying SMN nerf.

Whether or not people play a job to its potential (or how many) has no bearing on what that job's potential actually is.

My greater point is that most of the people crying that THF is OP, are really unqualified to be making those assertions (unfortunately, even the dev team in this case). Mostly becuase they have no idea what other jobs are really capable of and are basing these remarks off their own experiences...where 99% of the time they are just incapable of pushing whichever job to its potential in the first place.

The problem? The dev team seems to take its queues to where jobs stand by the amount of complaining they hear from the playerbase. They don't seem to have a real grasp on how the mechanics actually play out or what endgame groups really look like.. Virtually all groups take some combination of BRD COR GEO RDM etc. Capping Attack on SAM/WAR with proper food using a STR mod WS (increases STR/VIT ratio, WS Mod, and Attack) is trivial. The fact that the dev team does not know powerful this is at all content levels is worrisom. Especially when these jobs can exponentially increase their damage with haste and other powerful support buffs.

It doesnt matter at all if a melee job is balanced without support buffs or on low level content. If they can't compete with full support buffs (capped delay reduction, acc, att/def ratio, etc) on endgame content, they aren't getting invited. You'd think that if they played the game, they'd know that by now.

[Gobbo]

We originally had plans to change the way the system works by changing the properties of Blind so that MND would affect its potency. The basis of this change was to reduce the amount of equipment you need to procure to make enfeebling spells more effective. However, after giving consideration to other factors, such as the need for INT for magical accuracy, we've decided to push back this adjustment as it would cause players to need both MND and INT to boost the efficacy of Blind.

What about Distract and Frazzle? Don't these spells work in the same manner since they are Black Magic spells with Potency based on MND?

[Camate]

Greetings, everyone.

I’d like to share a comment from Producer Matsui as a follow-up to his recent post.



Matsui here.

I’ve spoken to the lead and checked up on the major feedback and questions we have been receiving, so I’d like to comment on these points.


Weapon skills other than Rudra’s Storm
Dagger weapon skills have a high damage multiplier, and regardless of what TP amount you choose to use it, it will still elicit a high amount of damage.

The weapon skill adjustments in June and December of 2014 strived to shine light on weapon skills that were not being used as much anymore and also to increase the range of options available. However, as a result, the stats for weapon skills with TP damage modifiers became much more prominent.

I would like to do everything I can to preserve the special characteristic of these weapon skills that allow you to deal large amounts of damage when you save TP; however, if we continue onward with the current multiplier, I feel it would be difficult to create balance with the other types of weapons. Due to this, I believe it is necessary to slightly reduce the multiplier.




Effects towards dagger wielding jobs such as bard and dancer
Bard, in addition to dealing damage through weapon skills, is a support-type job that aids their party through their songs. Currently, I feel that they possess a sufficient amount of capabilities in parties, and as such there are no plans to make adjustments for their melee damage.

With the job trait that allows them to increase skillchain damage as well as Climatic Flourish, dancer is currently in position right after thief as a job that can deal solid weapon skill damage. They also have a high amount of utility with their other abilities, and we do not have any plans of making adjustments to dancer based on the current damage output of Rudra’s Storm.




Isn’t samurai overpowered because their self-skillchain with Tachi: Fudo is very powerful?
Even when it comes to the values that were measured while the development team was conducting play testing, the amount of damage dealt by self-skillchaining with Tachi: Fudo exceeded that of other damage dealing jobs in many cases, and it’s a fact that samurai is currently an extremely powerful damage dealer.

However, while Tachi: Fudo is the great katana weapon skill of choice at the moment, in addition to requiring the entire party’s support to elicit the sought-after high damage, the damage also largely varies due to the attack-defense ratio between you and the monster, and standing in front of the monster to gain the bonus of Overwhelm is a risk. (Tachi: Fudo is still very powerful when fighting enemies that are lower than your own level, but job balance adjustments are made based on fighting high level monsters.)

Considering these factors as well as samurai’s job design which doesn’t give them much in terms of abilities that affect the entire party, I feel that lowering samurai’s damage dealing capabilities would severely limit the situations they can be useful, and as such we will not be making any adjustments as of the March version update.

We will continue to monitor the balance between samurai and other damage dealing jobs, and we will continue to look into adjustments based on the feedback we receive.




The frequency of recasting Ardor and its effect on two-handed weapon jobs
As a result of proceeding to make adjustments to the stats of Ardor, we’ve determined that its effects on two-handed weapons other than great katana are not sufficient enough and the damage output has not been equalized enough. Due to these reasons, we are in the midst of revamping the effect of Ardor.

We are planning to make the revamped Ardor have an effect where a skillchain damage bonus will be given depending on the amount of players that participate in the skillchain and the amount of weapon variety present. This means that it will be possible to achieve higher damage when skillchaining with other players and other weapon types compared to skillchaining by yourself.

There will be no changes to the jobs that can use this spell or the level it is learned, so we are still planning to make it a red mage spell that can be learned at level 64.

Furthermore, we’ve been receiving feedback concerned that red mages will have to recast this spell on party members every time the party wants to perform a skillchain, but we are planning to change this spell from an enhancing magic spell cast on party members to an enfeebling spell that is cast on monsters, so please do not worry about this.

However, due to these aforementioned changes, we will have to push back the implementation of Ardor to the version update that takes place after March, and we will only be making the weapon skills adjustments ahead of time in the March version update.

This means that we will be performing a so-called “nerf” ahead of time, but please allow me to explain the reasoning in the next section.




Weapon skill adjustment timing
In the March version update, in addition to the job adjustments being discussed, we will also be implementing new high-difficulty battle content known as Vagary.

In the event that we were to delay the weapon skill adjustments along with Ardor, the weapon skill adjustments would take place after Vagary has already been implemented, and it would result in very different situations for players who challenged this high-difficulty content before the adjustment and those who challenge it after, even though the adjustments are slight.

Due to this, in order to prevent players who plan on challenging this content right away from gaining an advantage, I feel it’s necessary to implement the weapon skill adjustments at the same time that we implement Vagary.




Damage dealing capabilities of warrior, dark knight, and black mage
Separately from the addition of Ardor, I feel that adjustments are needed for warrior and dark knight, whose primary role is to deal damage with their two-handed weapon similar to samurai, as well as black mage whose elemental magic spells do not receive a bonus from Ardor.

We’re currently looking into adjusting existing abilities and job traits for warrior, and adding new abilities to dark knight.

In regards to elemental magic, we’re planning to make adjustments that increase the potency of magic bursts in the March version update. Additionally, we’re looking into adding new black mage abilities and boosting their damage dealing capabilities.

As we’re still in the discussion stages of adjustments other than the magic burst adjustment, there is a possibility that the details will change, but we’ll be announcing information on topics and the forums in the future.


Thank you so much for all the feedback and thoughts on this matter, and I hope you continue to provide your feedback on it moving forward.

[Nebo]

lol

SAM = not OP (because capping attack is hard :rolleyes:) and who wants to play with BRD/COR/GEO/RDM anyway?

THF = OP because strategically and positionally skillchaining cooperatively with other jobs in your party creates damage!

I know its an old game, but you developement bros should try playing it sometimes. Its kind of fun!

[Ulth]

Where did I ask for a SMN nerf? Also when we talk about job nerfs, its about job potential. I'm happy to point out that the THF job (mythic or otherwise) cannot do that kind of damage on that content level and that no one is crying SMN nerf.

Whether or not people play a job to its potential (or how many) or not has no bearing on what that jobs potential actually is.

My greater point is that most of the people crying that THF is OP, are really unqualified to be making those assertions. Mostly becuase they have no idea what other jobs are really capable of and are basing these remarks off their own experiences...where 99% of the time they are just incapable of pushing whichever job to its potential in the first place.

Pretty much this. Thf isn't op, just lots of people like playing it. Lots of love goes into finding best in slot thf's sets. You should see how heated the debates get on ffxiah. And even if you think it's easier to gear thf to do okay damage, when it comes to balance that should be adjusting the upper limit of the job, and the upper limit of thf is far from op. I don't like having my favorite job being the bandwagon job right now, but I don't want it to be nerfed into nothing.

I must say though after watching the video I'm very impressed with that 4 man group. Run served multiple purposes, tank, opening skillchains, and used gambit to make the mobs weaker to fire. The geo's Malaise also helped with the extra magic damage. I didn't pay much attention to the cor, but I'm half surprised they didn't have them go /nin for Hyoton: Ni. Also that was the best smn I ever seen. I guess that is to be expected from a mythic smn.

[PlumbGame]

Samurai Fantasy 11. I knew their original comments were to nerf thief so sam could stay supreme. Too bad their logic for not nerfing sam falls into the same category as thief. If I were to SA rudras on something like an incursion boss, don't I risk the same potential for death as samurai standing in front of a boss for overwhelm bonuses since I normally have threat, how about a thief having to properly time TA rudras as to not get severely hurt from a TP move? Doesn't it require a parties support for me to do darkness uninterrupted?

[MilkMansKid]

Total BS. I'd say more but it wouldn't matter anyway as we can see from that post.

[Alhanelem]

Pretty much this. Thf isn't op, just lots of people like playing it. Lots of love goes into finding best in slot thf's sets. You should see how heated the debates get on ffxiah. And even if you think it's easier to gear thf to do okay damage, when it comes to balance that should be adjusting the upper limit of the job, and the upper limit of thf is far from op. I don't like having my favorite job being the bandwagon job right now, but I don't want it to be nerfed into nothing.

I must say though after watching the video I'm very impressed with that 4 man group. Run served multiple purposes, tank, opening skillchains, and used gambit to make the mobs weaker to fire. The geo's Malaise also helped with the extra magic damage. I didn't pay much attention to the cor, but I'm half surprised they didn't have them go /nin for Hyoton: Ni. Also that was the best smn I ever seen. I guess that is to be expected from a mythic smn.
THF is OP (or more accurately, Rudra's is OP). You're only saying it's not OP because you're a THF.

[Nebo]

THF is OP (or more accurately, Rudra's is OP). You're only saying it's not OP because you're a THF.

As much as I dislike this non-argument, I'll reply with another one. You only think THF is OP because you are a lolPUP :D (j/k)

Also they aren't nerfing just Rudra. They are nerfing all major THF WS...which would be fine if, comparatively, our melee damage wasn't weak, unstacked WS weren't weak, and meaningful WS damage wasn't dependant on positional requirements AND restricted by recast timer bottlnecks (Hint: this means haste doesn't do for THF nearly what it does to increase other DD's overall WS damage).

Like our OP Samurai bretherin we have to take risks to stay in front of the mob to TAWS and then to inevitably take hate when we spike hate SAWS. And of course, because its tough to position mobs and players in certain content, we don't even get to exploit SA/TA on recast in many events (people like to quote every ~30 seconds...in practice, it is never that often on average). Did I mention our defense and HP are crap?

Here's the thing, most DDs are bad DDs. That's not intended to be insulting. It's just the reality. So when most DD's make less than ideal food/gear/buff choices, hold tp when they shouldn't, have poor timing, etc the forced crit (effective ATT increase) from SA/TA Rudra seems AMAZING. There are quite a lot of people that operate in that low-mid range (there are also quite a lot of players unaware that they fall into this range), and to them, RUDRA is OP.

But when DDs play to their full potential, cap Att/Def ratio, cap acc, gear intelligently, use proper buffs/food/macros/skill/timing etc, then you start to see how OP the THF job itself really isn't.

The only part of this equation that really deserves any mathematical mention at all is skillchain damage, and THF isn't even the best job at creating high SC damage. In addition, you still (mostly) need other players to open skillchains and position SA/TA so attributing all that skillchain damage soley to the THF is not something I agree with. I don't see anything OP at all about rewarding parties with extra damage for such strategic and positional requirements (attached to fairly long recast timers) either.

At any rate, to solve this issue, they are adding a RDM spell (becuase that'll fix everything :rolleyes:) to increase SC damage even further and nerfing THF into the ground to compensate. Not an intelligent choice.

Meanwhile SAM being Over powered is working as intended :cool: (capping attack is hard for the dev team aparently?) and SMN is two-shotting Wopket in 8 seconds flat by closing light skillchains with Flaming Crush :eek: ...no one really plays with support jobs anyway so that shouldn't be too Over powered... right?:rolleyes:

[Zeargi]

Meanwhile SAM is working as intended and SMN is two shotting Wopket...no one really plays with support jobs anyway so that shouldn't be too OP, right?

And yet they don't get invites.

[Nebo]

And yet they don't get invites.

Most people are unaware that SMN is capable of this. Most people are happy to regurgitate things they read on the internet and only use strategies that someone else thought up. Most people think THF is over powered and nerfing it into the ground like this is a good idea.../shrug :confused: ...what can you do?

[Ulth]

And yet they don't get invites.

I think you mean they don't get shouted for. Which is good because if you shout for a smn you would probably get one with only the 115 sachet and no ilvl armor.

btw just watched a video of that smn doing 143 incursion. Diabolos and lots of fudo spams, but I don't see any rudra's being used. Go figure.

[Crevox]

The reason SMN does not get invites and that SMN is not often considered "OP" is because that setup requires very specific buffs, debuffs, and coordination. Flaming Crush is nowhere near as good unless that specific setup is used with those specific buffs and debuffs, and then Flaming Crush is the only attack that becomes strong at all.

If you were to want to use Flaming Crush like that, you would have to have the very specific setup of jobs, buffs, debuffs, and skillchain setup. It would not easily be applicable to a pug, as the entire group is formed around the SMN doing that. All of the other Summoner abilities remain the same, with Flaming Crush being the only one that really benefits (all the others do only slightly higher damage than normal). In addition, Papesse is basically best in slot for all items for SMN, which requires a mythic weapon, many expensive augments, etc, which is a huge reason the damage is so high as well. This is on top of all the other gear swaps and equipment not used specifically for Flaming Crush.

It also does not work on many monsters, for many reasons, however it does work there. In addition, there are many ways that strategy can easily go wrong, and it's not easily done due to the coordination required between party members and boss mechanics getting in the way.

Flaming Crush, or the abilities/debuffs that buff it to be so strong may need a nerf, yes, but it's not as simple as you think. This does not change the fact that Rudra's needs a nerf, and is getting a nerf.

[Nebo]

Dealing damage with SAMs requires specific buffs and setups too. Its not as if putting a COR GEO and RUN in a party is all that hard. The only difference is melee burn strategy is more popular. I don't necessarily agree that flaming crush needs a nerf either.

But to be clear: This is not a Rudra nerf. This is a Thief nerf. They are targeting all THF skillchain closing SA/TA WS. Mandalic Stab, Rudra Storm, Mercy Stroke and Shark Bite (for reasons unknown) are all getting the nerf bat. Not becuase they need nerfed, not becuase THF WS damage is too high, but becuase of skillchain damage and how strong it would be with the addition of ardor.

It is very very very very very much the wrong adjustment to make. Killing THF WS damage instead of adjusting Skillchains is a mistake. This is going to kill the job again. They should really reconsider this thing.

[Crevox]

Its not as if putting a COR GEO and RUN in a party is all that hard.

It's not even just that. The synergy of how they are using their abilities that causes all this is very well timed and in a strict order. Either way, if these jobs were in a party with other DD, the other DD would not be receiving the benefit at all, because the COR is rolling ONLY for the SMN, and only 1/2 of the GEO buffs benefit the DD. The RUN doesn't benefit them at all, and actually, the DD can easily screw up the strategy due to the specific timing and order of weaponskills to create skillchains. All of this makes it very unfriendly to pugs, on top of the massive gear requirement from the SMN.

It's not just "buff up, go spam Flaming Crush" like it is for Rudra's or Fudo. There's a lot more that goes into it, and even more so because it varies from mob to mob, and getting 4 skilled players to pull it off is not so easy.

It's not like this is the only strategy to do this, either. There are many other niche strats with other jobs that can do crazy stuff. When a group of skilled players get together and perfectly synergize, stuff like this happens. People are extremely naive to balance and job power in this game. Most haven't even released how strong BST is now, how strong nukes actually are, how strong random abilities like Immanence are, etc.

[Nebo]

As you can see, that SMN had no need for any other DD's in that party. I'm hard pressed to think of any strategy with any DD setup that could kill Wopket as fast as they did with just 1 SMN closing Skillchains.


It's not just "buff up, go spam Flaming Crush" like it is for Rudra's or Fudo.

lol. Whaaaaat? For THF, it is not like that for Rudra's at all. If you are doing that with Rudra's you aren't touching any conventional job's DD potential. You have to position and coordinate with other party members for SA/TA. You have to coordinate double darkness skillchains and you have to hold tp.

This is precisely why I am being so vocal about this subject. A lot of people crying for the nerf don't have their facts (or numbers) straight.

[Crevox]

You have to position and coordinate with other party members for SA/TA. You have to coordinate double darkness skillchains and you have to hold tp.

This is precisely why I am being so vocal about this subject. A lot of people crying for the nerf don't have their facts (or numbers) straight.

I do not consider using SATA to be difficult, at all. Using a job ability on cooldown to time it with a weaponskill and minorly moving to adjust to the position of the enemy is extremely simple. Also, using a weaponskill after someone else (skillchaining) is one of the most basic combat concepts in this game, and if you think that's hard, well, I dunno what to say.


As you can see, that SMN had no need for any other DD's in that party.

You're right, but the party is not so easy to setup, because you need 4 skilled people of those specific jobs that are all well informed on the plan, the ability order for each NM, cooldowns, and more. People are like "why don't people invite SMN if it is so op" because you can't just invite a SMN and expect it to pull numbers like that.

I'm pretty sure the GEO also had Idris (GEO ergon weapon), on top of using Bolster. It's extremely stacked conditions from skilled players (remember, the SMN had Nirvana too).

[Nebo]

I do not consider using SATA to be difficult, at all. Using a job ability on cooldown to time it with a weaponskill and minorly moving to adjust to the position of the enemy is extremely simple. Also, using a weaponskill after someone else (skillchaining) is one of the most basic combat concepts in this game, and if you think that's hard, well, I dunno what to say.

lol You just went from "mindlessly spamming Rudra's" to positioning and skillchaining are not hard. But judging by your response its pretty clear you don't have a lot of THF experience with constantly spinning mobs at the hate cap or players that love to move their character and figdet around constantly for no aparent reason.

Truthfully, it does take some coordination to set up SATA, play cooperatively and create double darkness skillchains for the THF to close. Is it hard? Not especially. Is it easy to do with the quality of most PUGs? (the basis of your argument) Not really.

I don't know what super skill you are trying to argue it takes for the COR and GEO to throw up buffs (something they do in every content) and then for the RUN to throw up Gambit before he opens resolution for the SMN to close light with flaming crush? None of that was hard at all.

And that specific strategy could be expanded on with weaker SMNs and GEO. Same RUN tank same buffs, just more SMNS constantly taking turns closing hate free light SC. Call it PLD RNG strat V2.0

[Crevox]

You just went from "mindlessly spamming Rudra's" to positioning and skillchaining are not hard.

I don't consider using these job abilities as requiring any effort. It's basically mindless, yes.

[Nebo]

:rolleyes:Something about that argument is basically mindless...thats for sure.

[Crevox]

:rolleyes:Something about that argument is basically mindless...thats for sure.

We are allowed to have different opinions on the difficulty of using 1 or 2 abilities and slightly moving around. Again, there is no need to resort to insults.

[Nebo]

We are allowed to have different opinions on the difficulty of using 1 or 2 abilities and slightly moving around. Again, there is no need to resort to insults.

I agree. It's just that lots of people have vocal oppinions about things they don't specifically understand. I find that to be insulting, particularly because its Thief's neck on the chopping block as a result.

[Crevox]

I agree. It's just that lots of people have vocal oppinions about things they don't specifically understand. I find that to be insulting, particularly because its Thief's neck on the chopping block as a result.

Even when things are understood, there is still disagreement and different opinions. Yeah, I don't play THF, but my friend I do a bunch of content with does, and he believes Rudra's Storm is too strong. I am in agreement with him, not just because of seeing him play, but after being partied with so many different thieves in so many different pieces of content.

At the end of the day, it's just something we disagree on, and that's how it is. SE will have to take both of our feedback into account.

[Ulth]

I do not consider using SATA to be difficult, at all. Using a job ability on cooldown to time it with a weaponskill and minorly moving to adjust to the position of the enemy is extremely simple. Also, using a weaponskill after someone else (skillchaining) is one of the most basic combat concepts in this game, and if you think that's hard, well, I dunno what to say.



You're right, but the party is not so easy to setup, because you need 4 skilled people of those specific jobs that are all well informed on the plan, the ability order for each NM, cooldowns, and more. People are like "why don't people invite SMN if it is so op" because you can't just invite a SMN and expect it to pull numbers like that.

I'm pretty sure the GEO also had Idris (GEO ergon weapon), on top of using Bolster. It's extremely stacked conditions from skilled players (remember, the SMN had Nirvana too).

You should consider trying it before forming an opinion on whether it's easy or not. Have you even ever played thf once?

edit: didn't see the post where you said you don't play thf

[Crevox]

You should consider trying it before forming an opinion on whether it's easy or not. Have you even ever played thf once?


No, but does the difficulty of playing it really matter? The situation I'm describing involves cooperation, high equipment, and strategy from multiple players. THF is using 1 or 2 abilities followed by a weaponskill.

I know about the conditions for SATA. I watch my friend do it all the time, I hear him complain about when the mob or party members move, I hear him complain when things don't go right, I hear people complain to me when I run in circles around the monster, etc. I have even joked that I run around in circles around the monster on purpose so people can play "time the taru" with Trick Attack (no, not actually on purpose).

This all doesn't change the fact that Rudra's Storm does too much damage. Again, this is subjective, of course.

[Ulth]

No, but does the diffculty of playing it really matter? The situation I'm describing involves cooperation, high equipment, and strategy from multiple players. THF is using 1 or 2 abilities followed by a weaponskill.

I know about the conditions for SATA. I watch my friend do it all the time, I hear him complain about when the mob or party members move, I hear him complain when things don't go right, I hear people complain to me when I run in circles around the monster, etc. I have even joked that I run around in circles around the monster on purpose so people can play "time the taru" with Trick Attack (no, not actually on purpose).

This all doesn't change the fact that Rudra's Storm does too much damage. Again, this is subjective, of course.

Yep party members move, mobs move, people stand on the very edge of attacking range so we can't attack from behind them, and they stand with their backs flush to the wall. Hate caps after our first SA, so our second SA is used with bully, at that point it might as well be on a 3 minute timer. There is also bind, the status effect that everything seems to love to do, and knock back. Lots of fun easy times with thf when these are going on. And do you know what all this headaches gives us? Still not the best dps in the game, and I'm honestly fine with not being the best, but I don't know why everyone wants thf to be the worst. Honestly right now I think the only jobs who didn't pull a head of thf with the addition of allvion armor is nin and drk, and i haven't even seen anyone spreed sheet drk yet.

[Ulth]

In this thread there have been people saying [paraphrased] "I don't play WAR, don't use Upheaval, but I read something on FFxiah about it that says its really powerful ws, so that must be the truth."

I read this and lolled because I do Upheavals every day in [gear VIT+170] all 119 attack gear and a Svarga DMG+34, and I use torques/belts for ws, and it rolls out these 2500 damage ws on EP mobs sometimes, more often 6~9k on EP mobs. But it is funny that people who never used the ws or play the job, are telling me that my Upheavals are weak because of my weak War gear, and they know this for sure coz some random person on FFxiah said so.

Swings and roundabouts, hypocrisy galloping free.

Boy you sure have an axe to grind. I don't really have time for anymore of your nonsense though. What with all the stunts you have pulled in this thread already.

[Mooserocka]

Skillchains are tremendous, SAMs being able to reliably self skillchain is why everyone does Yorcia with 2x SAMs, because the Light chain removes Wopket's aura quickly and easily (and he's weak to slashing, but). SAMs also get every L2 skillchain property, so they can chain anything any time easily, and as was mentioned earlier, a SAM with sufficient TP generation can indefinitely L2 skillchain. Or two SAMs with slightly less TP gen can do the same, if coordinated. Honestly I think Machini's theory that THF WSes are being nerfed precisely because THFs can infinitely chain like SAMs can has merit, as far as we can tell there's no actual cap to how high the bonus damage for a skill chain can go -- everything dies too quickly.

Additionally, SAMs also have the ability to use Namas/Apex Arrow, adding to their versatility on some fights like Pil, for instance.

Mythic

Fortunately, at 1k TP, Pyrrhic Kleos with Terpsichore is better damage than Rudra's at 1k TP currently, so it'll be even better after whatever nerfs we get. Unfortunately, that means going through the work and effort to get a Terpsichore.

Mythic wouldn't be an option for me . But yea I'm just hoping they don't kill it to much. And the reason they gave about climactic sure it's great but has a long cd. Maybe if they shortened it dancer would be relevant? Even with rudra people always want a thief over you. Without it will probobly be the same .

[Ulth]

Mythic wouldn't be an option for me . But yea I'm just hoping they don't kill it to much. And the reason they gave about climactic sure it's great but has a long cd. Maybe if they shortened it dancer would be relevant? Even with rudra people always want a thief over you. Without it will probobly be the same .

You don't need a Terpsichore to do good damage on dnc, it does help though. If you want to learn how to dnc or any job you should check out the guides on ffxiah. The front post of most of them don't get updated anymore because those who originally wrote them have since left the game, but flipping to the last pages in the topic will have current information.

[Kassaiemi]

In this thread there have been people saying [paraphrased] "I don't play WAR, don't use Upheaval, but I read something on FFxiah about it that says its really powerful ws, so that must be the truth."

I read this and lolled because I do Upheavals every day in [gear VIT+170] all 119 attack gear and a Svarga DMG+34, and I use torques/belts for ws, and it rolls out these 2500 damage ws on EP mobs sometimes, more often 6~9k on EP mobs. But it is funny that people who never used the ws or play the job, are telling me that my Upheavals are weak because of my weak War gear, and they know this for sure coz some random person on FFxiah said so.

Swings and roundabouts, hypocrisy galloping free.

You get those 2500 Upheavals sometimes because it's a four hit WS, and with the 95% hit rate cap, you only have an 81% chance of actually landing all four hits even if you ARE hit capped. So sometimes you only land one or two hits and it does next to nothing. Rudra's and Fudo are both more consistent because they are single hit WSes, and Rudra's has a 99% hit cap (there's also something weird where it still hits even when it "misses" but it does 1/10th the damage it should have -- the only time I've seen a full up Rudra's miss is when it's absorbed by a shadow).

Martial Mastery WSes in general are bad if you have any other options -- quested WSes are usually better, i.e. Evisceration more often than not out damages Exenterator, especially because it's a WS capable of critting, and frankly, R/E/M WSes should be tuned so they blow MM WSes out of the water.

You can use Upheaval if you like it, but it's still not as good an option as Ukko's. Ukko's benefits more from multi-attacks because it has fewer base swings (there's a cap of 8 attacks per round/WS -- DA/TA/QA doesn't benefit Asuran Fists at all, for instance), higher fTP until you hit 3k TP, is capable of critting, and has a far more favorable stat scaling for you.

If you were interested in making comparisons that are actually fair, you'd compare Upheaval to Exenterator, and I can tell you, my Exenterator at 5/5 generally caps at 5-6k damage at the absolute maximum (read: in Abyssea, with Abyssea buffs), so your Upheaval is still doing far better.

What I really want to know is why you feel a WS that everyone can easily get for 20 merits should do comparable damage to a weapon skill that involves a few million gil worth of items at the bare minimum to acquire, and historically required completing an Empyrean weapon. You keep saying you just "think it's funny" but you're backhandedly arguing that you feel your Upheaval should do as much damage as Rudra's, or that the inverse should be true, and frankly it's more than a little irritating.

[darkhorror]

Your lead should be fired if he thinks this is how you go about "balancing"

[Skeelo]

Before the game is completely dead, can we please let drg be top dd for a while, so i can go out with a bang? Been 100% dedicated to this job like an idiot and have been repeatedly let down.

[bazookatooth]

In this thread there have been people saying [paraphrased] "I don't play WAR, don't use Upheaval, but I read something on FFxiah about it that says its really powerful ws, so that must be the truth."

I read this and lolled because I do Upheavals every day in [gear VIT+170] all 119 attack gear and a Svarga DMG+34, and I use torques/belts for ws, and it rolls out these 2500 damage ws on EP mobs sometimes, more often 6~9k on EP mobs. But it is funny that people who never used the ws or play the job, are telling me that my Upheavals are weak because of my weak War gear, and they know this for sure coz some random person on FFxiah said so.

Swings and roundabouts, hypocrisy galloping free.

I got bored and decided to test this. I had to level my GA to 357 to get upheaval since I don't play war. I grabbed whatever 119 gear that I had from sam and threw it on war/dnc and went out and fought la'thein liege. I don't have any gear swaps set up or even know how to gear for upheaval because I didn't bother to check. I used atma of the apocalypse/razed ruin/voracious violet and was able to consistently get 10k-12k upheavals with just one merit in it.

[bazookatooth]

Yes. I did a 28k Upheaval on Turul too. Thats Aby though.

Ok, I kill EP capacity points mobs and Upheaval does around 3~8k. I kill EP capacity mobs on Thf and Rudras does around 4~10k. Sometimes it goes off the charts and just oneshots the mob.

But thankyou for continuing to take my original post out of context entirely, missing the whole point I was making about general concepts re; heavy weapons vs. light weapons, and how while I uderstand its a game and has its own game rules on these things, I am still surprised every time my dagger dishes out even similar damage to my great axe.

I'm surprised how far people will go to take things out of context, even levelling jobs and skilling weapons just to argue against a fictional point that I never even made in the first place.

I baked a cake with your face on it and wrote your name on my pencilcase coz I <3 U :)

I just noticed that people seemed to be arguing that one or the other doesn't play the job in question and should have no opinion on it, so I thought I'd actually play both jobs and put this to rest so that people can go back to more constructive conversations. The reality is that anecdotal evidence is pretty useless considering that tons of people run parses on this game and there are easily available spreadsheets that tell you exactly what each job can do against each target under each different kind of buff / debuff situation.

So basically, me (or anyone else) saying "I did X amount of damage with X weapon skill" really has no place in the conversation other than to muddy the waters.

As for the size of the weapons, my dagger is bigger than a taru taru Great axe so logically I should do far more damage with it. But that's neither here nor there because the word "Fantasy" is right in the title of the game, meaning that none of this is supposed to be realistic.

[Stompa]

I just noticed that people seemed to be arguing that one or the other doesn't play the job in question and should have no opinion on it, so I thought I'd actually play both jobs and put this to rest so that people can go back to more constructive conversations. The reality is that anecdotal evidence is pretty useless considering that tons of people run parses on this game and there are easily available spreadsheets that tell you exactly what each job can do against each target under each different kind of buff / debuff situation.

So basically, me (or anyone else) saying "I did X amount of damage with X weapon skill" really has no place in the conversation other than to muddy the waters.

As for the size of the weapons, my dagger is bigger than a taru taru Great axe so logically I should do far more damage with it. But that's neither here nor there because the word "Fantasy" is right in the title of the game, meaning that none of this is supposed to be realistic.

I agree that it is fantasy, and I said so in my very first post in this thread, it is a videogame and fantasy etc.

As for muddying the waters, not really, it is a general discussion forum not a Science Conference. If people want to post up and say they still find it amusing and odd when light weapons out-damage heavy weapons, they are perfectly within their rights to do so.

If a forum only allows people with maths degrees to post nothing but spreadsheets, and anyone else posting casual fun comments based on personal experiences, gets relentlessly and mercilessly trolled for it, in the most tenacious and pedantic manner possible, then what you will have is most people leaving that forum and all you will have left on the forum is like five maths graduates comparing spreadsheets. If that is what you want, good luck to you.

I'm more of an "inclusivity" kind of person, I think anyone, child or adult, amateur or pro, should be allowed to post whatever they want so long as it is on topic and not offensive. I noticed people talking about dagger ws being op in this thread, and I just chimed in with lol I do have trouble visualising dagger outdamaging greataxe - ever, at all.

And if your dagger really is bigger than a taru gaxe, I should really like to see your dagger. Not that this inaccurate point is relevant anyway, since I was comparing different weapons I used on my character, where the dagger is a tiny light weapon and the gaxe is a large heavy weapon. I'm sure somebody can find new ways to attack my original point, but I'm so bored of defending my perfectly innocent original post, I bid you all farewell.

:p

[bazookatooth]

I agree that it is fantasy, and I said so in my very first post in this thread, it is a videogame and fantasy etc.

As for muddying the waters, not really, it is a general discussion forum not a Science Conference. If people want to post up and say they still find it amusing and odd when light weapons out-damage heavy weapons, they are perfectly within their rights to do so.

If a forum only allows people with maths degrees to post nothing but spreadsheets, and anyone else posting casual fun comments based on personal experiences, gets relentlessly and mercilessly trolled for it, in the most tenacious and pedantic manner possible, then what you will have is most people leaving that forum and all you will have left on the forum is like five maths graduates comparing spreadsheets. If that is what you want, good luck to you.

I'm more of an "inclusivity" kind of person, I think anyone, child or adult, amateur or pro, should be allowed to post whatever they want so long as it is on topic and not offensive. I noticed people talking about dagger ws being op in this thread, and I just chimed in with lol I do have trouble visualising dagger outdamaging greataxe - ever, at all.

And if your dagger really is bigger than a taru gaxe, I should really like to see your dagger. Not that this inaccurate point is relevant anyway, since I was comparing different weapons I used on my character, where the dagger is a tiny light weapon and the gaxe is a large heavy weapon. I'm sure somebody can find new ways to attack my original point, but I'm so bored of defending my perfectly innocent original post, I bid you all farewell.

:p

But you didn't just make a fun innocent post. You made a post suggesting that something negative should be done to some very popular jobs that would hurt a lot of people and devalue the effort they've put into those jobs. In another time or place, that comment would have probably come off just as you intended, but in this discussion, people's enjoyment is on the line. I think that we can both agree that whatever your intention was in making that post, it didn't come off as amusing to the people who fear that they will lose the ability to play their favorite jobs and it's probably better to just move on and stop trying to defend it.

For what it's worth, I think discourse is a really good way to learn and build. The forums would be relatively useless if everyone just waited for the devs to disseminate info and then applauded them for it. So let's all try and learn something from this.

[Calatilla]

SAM has always been SE`s baby, so they're not going to nerf that job even if it could pop out 99k Fudo's naked. Rudra's needs toning down a bit I suppose but I don't understand their decision to nerf other dagger weaponskills as well.

I just hope they don't kill THF outright by nerfing them into the ground, which imo is unwarranted. But with SE's track record and their opinion on Treasure Hunter being THF's most powerful Trait I don't hold out much hope for the job after this adjustment.

[Atomic_Skull]

The weapon skill adjustments in June and December of 2014 strived to shine light on weapon skills that were not being used as much anymore and also to increase the range of options available. However, as a result, the stats for weapon skills with TP damage modifiers became much more prominent.

I would like to do everything I can to preserve the special characteristic of these weapon skills that allow you to deal large amounts of damage when you save TP; however, if we continue onward with the current multiplier, I feel it would be difficult to create balance with the other types of weapons. Due to this, I believe it is necessary to slightly reduce the multiplier.

Mercy Stroke is not modded by TP so why is it being nerfed then?

[Nebo]

Mercy Stroke is not modded by TP so why is it being nerfed then?

Lack of competence, mostly....possibly mixed with a distinct lack of experience with actual gameplay.

[Atomic_Skull]

Lack of competence, mostly....possibly mixed with a distinct lack of experience with actual gameplay.

I think the real reason may be a demented notion that they can roll back the dagger buff and revive THF as an "enmity control" job re:


enmity will have an increase cap and enmity gained from damage dealt will be adjusted, making a party's enmity levels easier to manage.

They're also postponing Ardor while still nerfing THF so that excuse was an obvious lie. But then they're not going to just come out and say "sorry guys no job can be allowed to come close to SAM"

I have a bad bad feeling that after this nerf THF will end up actually weaker than it was before the 1H buff.

My prediction for post nerf dagger WS:

Rudra's Storm ftp 1.0 / 2.2 / 4.0

Mercy Stroke ftp 2.0

Shark Bite ftp 1.0 / 2.0 / 2.5

Mandalic Stab ftp 0.7 / 1.2 / 2.0

I hope I'm wrong but I have a bad feeling I'm not far off.

[Nebo]

Either way its bad for us. I suspect it won't be that severe, but any kind enmity "contol" on THF is largely based on damage dealt with Trick Attack, which is getting lowered along with the enmity generated from physical damage. So our ability to plant hate on a tank is getting efffectively double nerfed. Slightly less so vs other DD's but relative to mages and tanks it will likely be even more irrelevant than before.

A lot depends on the "how much" for a lot of these updates.

[Atomic_Skull]

I really don't see why Mercy Stroke needs to be nerfed, it was only increased from ftp 3.0 to ftp 5.0 it's not TP modded and it's not like the greeter moogle is handing out free Mandaus to every bandwagon THF.

I worry that rather than going back to the pre buff situation where Mercy Stroke was stronger than Rudras at 100% TP and Rudra's only overtook it after 200% they'll keep the current relationship where Rudras is stronger than Mercy Stroke always with the addition that you now have to have 200% TP with Rudras to do decent damage so that Mercy Stroke ends up being a useless WS.


As far as one shotting wanted battles, there are lots of jobs you can sub THF to and do that with. DRK/THF and Torcleaver for example.

[Nebo]

Or SMN with proper buffs, or several others, etc.

It's probably something like they want to keep a similar heirarchy of SA/TA dagger WS so they are nerfing them all to keep their current relative power level.

IE: Arbitrary reasoning that isn't based on actual game play but is being implemented based on some random policy or overarching lore edict that doesn't make much sense. Just like so many other decisions they've made in the past (PUP being on mage gear etc.)

It's either that or we are royally screwed. Something like our new power level will be something lower than current level shark bite...

edit:

BRB, leveling SAM

[Atomic_Skull]

Or SMN with proper buffs, or several others, etc.

It's probably something like they want to keep a similar heirarchy of SA/TA dagger WS so they are nerfing them all to keep their current relative power level.

IE: Arbitrary reasoning that isn't based on actual game play but is being implemented based on some strategic or overarching lore edict that doesn't make much sense. Just like so many other decisions they've made in the past (PUP being on mage gear etc.)

It's either that or we are royally screwed. Something like our new power level will be something lower than current level shark bite...

edit:

BRB, leveling SAM

Yup I'm pretty sure they're going to do to THF what was done to RNG back in 2005.

[mekia]

I think that we got the utter useless Th13 should show us what SE wants from THF's. Was fun while it lasted to be top for the first time since start of the game.
At least can use the Taeon gear for MNK >.>

[Atomic_Skull]

Well they removed any reason to not just spam Rudras at 100% TP but at least Mercy Stroke it useful again thanks to the Relic +40% Ws boost making it better for spamming than Rudras.

[Ulth]

Well they removed any reason to not just spam Rudras at 100% TP but at least Mercy Stroke it useful again thanks to the Relic +40% Ws boost making it better for spamming than Rudras.

Good news for relic holders I guess, bad news for people who put the time in to make a mythic. Mandalic stab got nerfed down below nerfed shark bite. Not that shark bite was actually nerfed. idk what SE has been smoking but it was not 4.81/7.11/8.81 before the update. Must be the same case with blade: kamu in that they thought they changed it but left it the same.

Typical SE though, they overreacted and over nerfed.

[Nebo]

Well they removed any reason to not just spam Rudras at 100% TP but at least Mercy Stroke it useful again thanks to the Relic +40% Ws boost making it better for spamming than Rudras.

Well they did it. Mouthbreathers win!

For THF, Evisceration is stronger now than anything at 1000 TP (50% DEX and ~10FTP and can Crit). I'm still not sure Mandau will be worth using with a bit of regular over TP and moonshade but maybe it won't ba AS inferior as it was pre update.

Either way this is bullsh*t. They nerfed them too much. Consider THF job dead again.

[darkhorror]

Looks to me like they simply put rudras in line with the rest of the 1hand ws's similar to rudras. So looks like they actually did a good job balancing it compared to other jobs.

[Ulth]

Looks to me like they simply put rudras in line with the rest of the 1hand ws's similar to rudras. So looks like they actually did a good job balancing it compared to other jobs.

Yeah they took the Empyrean dagger ws and put it's damage somewhere between Calamity, a level 60 axe skill, and Mistral Axe, a level 66 axe skill. When they should have had Sharkbite like that, Mandalic Stab somewhere around Savage blade level, and then Rudra's 20%-30% stronger than Mandalic. Mercy Stroke is not salvageable.

[dasva]

Good news for dncs... Pyrrhic Kleos is still plenty strong

[machini]

Good news for dncs... Pyrrhic Kleos is still plenty strong

Please don't say that.

[Atomic_Skull]

Mercy Stroke is not salvageable.

Currently the damage on Mercy Stroke is about the same as Evisceration on average but Evisceration spikes higher. Mercy Stroke would be worthwhile if they had left the multiplier at 6.0 and if the critical hit bonus was at least 20% (rather than 5%) and lasted as long as empyrean and mythic aftermaths instead of 20 seconds.

[Ulth]

Currently the damage on Mercy Stroke is about the same as Evisceration on average but Evisceration spikes higher. Mercy Stroke would be worthwhile if they had left the multiplier at 6.0 and if the critical hit bonus was at least 20% (rather than 5%) and lasted as long as empyrean and mythic aftermaths instead of 20 seconds.

Yeah, and to use it you need to use Mandau, which is nice looking with it's golden shine, but has horrible base damage. To fix it they would need to do something about how relic weapons are pretty much garbage compared to skirmish and delve. That however is a whole other can of worms. R/M/E weapons and JSE armor not holding up to the augments on skirmish stuff.

[Atomic_Skull]

Yeah, and to use it you need to use Mandau, which is nice looking with it's golden shine, but has horrible base damage. Base damage is low but the very low delay still makes it one of the highest DPS daggers. Equip a mandau and jugo +1 and with max haste you'll attack faster than a MNK under the effect Hundred Fists, so fast that your attack speed outpaces the attack animations. Also it has a 13% triple damage effect. Increasing the multiplier on Mercy Stroke would solve the problem of base delay on WS. You can only use Mercy Stroke with Mandau so it couldn't be abused with a higher DMG low delay dagger like Iptam.

The aftermath is pathetic though and needs to be improved. 20% critical hit rate starting at 60 seconds at 100% TP would be just about perfect. Also the extra damage proc on relics needs to be fixed so it can proc on the second and third hits of a double or triple attack.

[Singforu]

Base damage is low but the very low delay still makes it one of the highest DPS daggers. Equip a mandau and jugo +1 and with max haste you'll attack faster than a MNK under the effect Hundred Fists, so fast that your attack speed outpaces the attack animations. Also it has a 13% triple damage effect. Increasing the multiplier on Mercy Stroke would solve the problem of base delay on WS. You can only use Mercy Stroke with Mandau so it couldn't be abused with a higher DMG low delay dagger like Iptam.

The aftermath is pathetic though and needs to be improved. 20% critical hit rate starting at 60 seconds at 100% TP would be just about perfect. Also the extra damage proc on relics needs to be fixed so it can proc on the second and third hits of a double or triple attack.

no. hundred fists breaks the delay cap.

[dasva]

Currently the damage on Mercy Stroke is about the same as Evisceration on average but Evisceration spikes higher. Mercy Stroke would be worthwhile if they had left the multiplier at 6.0 and if the critical hit bonus was at least 20% (rather than 5%) and lasted as long as empyrean and mythic aftermaths instead of 20 seconds. Sorta depends on buffs. If you can get crit buffs or enough multi attack it starts to go a bit more in favor of evisceration