Suggestion to make Puppetmaster desirable for parties.

[sweetidealism]

Puppetmaster has gotten a lot of fantastic boosts lately. Unfortunately, it still has not made us competitive.

I know that the dev team has previously stated that there are no plans to make a new automaton, but if they ever decide to MAKE plans, then this is what I'd like to see:

Please add a "Geomancer" style automaton head.

Outfitting one's automaton with this head will extend the effects of equipped attachments to nearby party members when the appropriate maneuvers are used. It can be used with any automaton frame. This would allow for a variety of effects that could potentially let Puppetmaster finally be sought after for parties.

Going down the list, we could potentially see the following buffs derived from relevant attachments:

When a FIRE maneuver is used:
Tension Spring: Attack up
Attuner: Monster Defense down?
Inhibitor: Store TP up
Strobe: Enmity up

When an EARTH maneuver is used:
Armor Plate: Defense up or Physical Damage Taken down
Barrier Module: Increased shield block rate
Schurzen: Allows Scherzo/Earthen Armor/Migawari to trigger more easily?

When a WATER maneuver is used:
Mana Jammer: Magic Defense Bonus up or Magic Damage Taken down
Mana Channeler: Magic Attack Bonus up and Recast Time up
Percolator: Skill gain rate up
Stealth Screen: Enmity down
Steam Jacket: Increases resistance to magic damage of a certain element after taking damage

When a WIND maneuver is used:
Accelerator: Evasion up
Drum Magazine: Snapshot up, Ranged Accuracy down
Scope: Ranged Accuracy up
Turbo Charger: Haste

When an ICE maneuver is used:
Loudspeaker: Magic Attack Bonus up
Mana Booster: Fast Cast up
Power Cooler: MP Costs down
Tranquilizer: Magic Accuracy up

When a THUNDER maneuver is used:
Coiler: Double Attack up
Dynamo: Critical Hit Rate up
Galvanizer: Counter rate up
Stabilizer: Accuracy up
Volt Gun: Enthunder
Target Marker: Monster Evasion down?

When a LIGHT maneuver is used:
Auto-Repair Kit: Regen
Optic Fiber: A little of every equipped attachment!
Vivi-Valve: Increased Cure Potency

When a DARK maneuver is used:
Mana Conserver: Conserve MP
Mana Tank: Refresh
Smoke Screen: Evasion up, Accuracy down

These effects would be considered separate from Geomancy and should stack with similar Geomancy effects from a Geomancer, but should NOT stack with effects from another Automaton.

Naturally, the potency of the extended attachment effects would have to be less than the bonus the automaton itself receives or it would likely end up being too much. All the same, a support style automaton head fashioned after Geomancer would be a great boon to Puppetmasters looking to participate in large scale endgame events. Thanks for your consideration. :D

[Roja323]

Not gonna happen (like this) at least, it would be too over powered.

1) What we need is a melee frame (mnk/sam/thf/war/drg etc) that is meant to do melee dmg. VE and SS just dont do the amount of dmg we need.
2) Gear sets that max pet haste without gimping the master
3) Pets to take significantly reduced dmg from ae if the ae hits the master. (EG ae hits me + pet, pet takes 5% of the dmg, i still take w/e dmg i would have taken)

[Mitruya]

1) A little mini-SAM or mini-DRG would be awesome.
3) Yesss, this so much. For all pet jobs probably. I wonder how the new Armor Plate III will do.

[Roja323]

Well unless armor plate 3 is DT instead of PDT its kinda a wash honestly.
AP 1 5/7.5/10/15
AP2 10/15/20/25
AP3 15/20/25/30 (probable)

At best your using all 3 with 0 maneuvers for -30% pdt...if they increase the elemental capacity enough to allow all 3 (or even 2+3) on any of the dd frames

You still need mana jammer 3, and even then you wont cap -mdt unless you are using a mage frame that happens to have shell on itself.

[Zeargi]

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2015/045/a/d/automaton_drg_by_zeargi-d8i08db.jpg

Got bored, drew this. Tried to stay true to the original design.

[Zeargi]

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2015/046/f/1/automaton_blu_by_zeargi-d8i4z7l.jpg

Got bored again, BLU Automaton. >_>

[sweetidealism]

Not gonna happen (like this) at least, it would be too over powered.

1) What we need is a melee frame (mnk/sam/thf/war/drg etc) that is meant to do melee dmg. VE and SS just dont do the amount of dmg we need.
2) Gear sets that max pet haste without gimping the master
3) Pets to take significantly reduced dmg from ae if the ae hits the master. (EG ae hits me + pet, pet takes 5% of the dmg, i still take w/e dmg i would have taken)

#1 might get fixed by the upcoming update. Let's wait and see on that one.
#2 we're absolutely in agreement on. For instance, I took thurandaut ring, but I wish it did ANYTHING for the master.
#3 would also be very welcome.


Got bored, drew this. Tried to stay true to the original design.

Rad.

Anyway, there's a big problem with just adding another DD option instead of fixing the ones we have currently. Pure damage is great and all, but we otherwise provide very little utility. Sharpshot provides defense down with armor shatterer, and with attachments might do a few other neat things, but it can all be done more easily and potently by other jobs. Compare that to the top desired DDs, currently Monk, Samurai, Ranger, and Thief. Each offers unique things that no other DD can do (at least, as effectively.) The reason I suggested a geomancer style automaton is because it would let us finally fill a niche, and a highly desirable niche at that: support.

Valoredge will never be an effective tank because it can't have hate pinned on it with RNG or THF, and can't be cured by other players.
Sharpshot falls short on damage as has been pointed out. (Again, hopefully this is rectified in the coming update.)
Soulsoother still does not quite have the tools to be a main healer, and even if it did I wouldn't trust its AI.
Spiritreaver is in desperate need of more magic damage and an attachment that makes it cast back to back but never any spell beyond a tier I.
Stormwaker is great now but it's for solo only and this is a thread about becoming desirable in parties.
Harlequin remains useless and forgotten and will likely stay that way.

Even if all of those problems are fixed, we're still lacking a real niche for party play. That's where the Geomancer style pet comes in. Everyone loves buffs. It doesn't have to be overpowered in the slightest. Simply being able to add support as a possible role at all would be incredible for Puppetmasters everywhere.

[Zeargi]

Even if all of those problems are fixed, we're still lacking a real niche for party play. That's where the Geomancer style pet comes in. Everyone loves buffs. It doesn't have to be overpowered in the slightest. Simply being able to add support as a possible role at all would be incredible for Puppetmasters everywhere.

PUP falls into the same boat that SMN does, but PUP is an awesome DD in it's own right, the only problem is that it lacks the massive HP Pool that MNK gets. But as a pet job, the pet falls far behind in that category. Even if PUP got a GEO style frame, I don't think it'd win spots as in most cases the support wouldn't be drastic enough to merit its use. Because still as it stands no other Support job comes close to touching BRD. Which is why it's hard for other non-heavy hitters to find their spots. The Harlie could be useful again if it got an upgrade of sorts. and I'm hoping that these new attachments will help, but I don't think that they'll be enough. But I drew these picture just for fun. I had planned to draw a SAM, BRD, and maybe SMN Automaton. But I agree that something need to be done, more for pet jobs in General to get us back on the list of being thought of.

[sweetidealism]

PUP falls into the same boat that SMN does, but PUP is an awesome DD in it's own right, the only problem is that it lacks the massive HP Pool that MNK gets. But as a pet job, the pet falls far behind in that category. Even if PUP got a GEO style frame, I don't think it'd win spots as in most cases the support wouldn't be drastic enough to merit its use. Because still as it stands no other Support job comes close to touching BRD. Which is why it's hard for other non-heavy hitters to find their spots. The Harlie could be useful again if it got an upgrade of sorts. and I'm hoping that these new attachments will help, but I don't think that they'll be enough. But I drew these picture just for fun. I had planned to draw a SAM, BRD, and maybe SMN Automaton. But I agree that something need to be done, more for pet jobs in General to get us back on the list of being thought of.

Even if my thread accomplishes nothing else, I will be glad that it inspired you to draw these awesome automatons, haha.

[Glamdring]

There's also something SE cannot do, remove the bias against pet jobs in the minds of the people who draw up "official" strategies. Pup is a utility job when you get down to it. We have the master providing pretty decent melee numbers, roughly what a DD nin puts out lately, then our auto is doing other stuff-exactly what being dependent on setup-over and above what we do for DPS. Couple that with what we are doing off our sub-job and that's quite alot of stuff coming from 1 slot of a 6 man party max. Good luck ever getting those guys to notice however that the pup is putting up good DPS and his soulsoother auto is debuffing the mob, keeping the whm's MP up by sharing the load and thanks to mana converter can never run out of MP itself-I've run in alot of parties that way in my LS and believe me, it's damn handy.

as to adding new heads or frames, I don't see that as the answer. The root of the current problem will never be addressed until the ilevel scaling to 119 is fixed, and +89 to each ability stat isn't getting that job done, any new frame or head will still suffer from lagging behind just as badly as our current autos do. Even Tier 3 attachments don't cover for the fact a player on the auto's job is running +109 or higher on core stats AND is using gear that adds +240 accuracy or the like. I mean, I'm not one of those mathy types who is going to run everything through parsers and all that but just looking at those numbers it should be readily apparent to even the dimmest bulbs amongst us that in modifiers used to calculate output our auto is way to hell and gone behind players-and they used to be essentially Even Matches.

[Roja323]

Glamdring is 100% right:
They add food - we are still 300 acc away from a decent auto
They increase auto base acc/atk - we are still 200 acc away from a decent auto
They add t3 attachments - (guess) but we are still 100 acc away from a decent auto.

Divinator needs to be more than just 90 to stats, it needs to be the equivalent of our pet wearing full i119 gear (+200 acc, atk, max worn haste etc) for the melee frame. Even i117 players in full sparks gear have better stats than our pet.

If their goal is like 80/20(p), then maybe with the update to t3 attachments well make that mark, but our pets will never be 50/50 or even 60/40(p).

I know you say new heads arent needed, but rng frame and VE frame are both kinda aweful at melee dd, and having to use ve head + rng body just to force it to melee 1x per my 8 swings seems sad. I want a native dual wield/h2h pet ;-/ something that hits more often and for harder. I mean im hitting 8x for 500 by the time my pet hits 1x for 200-300

[Glamdring]

I wasn't condemning new frames/heads, just stating that until the ilevel part is fixed a new frame and/or head will be just as weak as what we have now. once that is done, THEN we can discuss all the new frames and/or heads anyone could want. I'll be happy to chime in then. I agree, our dedicated melee DD frames-valoredge and harlequin-are inadequate to the task due to attack speed but there is no point bringing new ones in until they will hit for more than 30-40 per swing. Given its relative fragility I actually want my sharpshot out of melee range, if anything I want its ranged damage range to be increased to rng/cor/throwing range, as I want our casters to cast from blm range, as things stand endgame AoE means I'm using Deus Ex entirely too often.

[Alhanelem]

We've been asking for new heads/frames for years. I'm convinced at this point its not going to happen.

That said, this isn't really a problem that needs solving. PUP is already doing pretty well, since they've been buffed up the wazoo in several recent patches. The real problem is just LOLPUP stigma that persists in spite of the improvements. Pet accuracy could still be better as has been noted above; but I'd be reaching to complain about too much else. Honestly they could solve that problem and any others in 2 seconds by allowing regular buffs/spell effects to apply to pets (all pets, not just automatons) instead of requiring specialized buffs- of which BRD would be in the best position to use because of pianissimo, but BRD gets none.

You can get the accuracy where it needs to be right now with a COR, but you're only going to be able to do this if all of your DDs are pet users.


and having to use ve head + rng body just to force it to melee 1x per my 8 swings seems sad. You know I keep seeing people do this and it bugs me; they all but eliminated the accuracy down on the Drum Magazine (it has very little impact on ranged accuracy anymore) and nobody uses it. accuracy + haste2 attachment+drum magazine,some wind manuvers and your automaton is shooting like a machine gun (okay, slight exaggeration) with melees between each shot, getting a good TP gain rate. I've had many people tell me melee head gets you superior DPS, but I'm not seeing it, measuring about the same as other similarly geared PUPs in the same content at the same time. I'm sure some elitist will tell me I'm wrong about all this but remember when you use the melee head, you're also losing ranged attack rate. I've always thought PUPs using valor head/sharpshot body were just doing it to avoid having to move their pets around.

[Roja323]

Drum magazine depends on your definition of minimal. -6 delay/-33 racc with 1 wind up. Not aweful, but see how it plays out.

Drum magazine -
-16/-33/-60/-87 (-racc)
-2/-6/-8/-15 (-second dly)

With RNG head with shiromochi, master wearing optimal master gear;
Turbo 1/turbo 2/scope2/drum magazine
979 acc/1113 atk/ 1021 racc/1175 ratk/ 32% haste / 14sec rattk

tc1/tc2/sc1/sc2
979 acc/ 1113 atk/ 1077 racc/ 1175 ratk/ 32% haste/ 20sec rattk

MELEE head rng
sc2/tc1/tc2
989 acc/1129 atk/ 1043 racc/1154 ratk/. 32% haste/ 36sec rattk (more racc then rng with drum magazine)

1) With drum magazine, RNG will rattak 2x as offten as MEL-Rng, but has 20 less racc

2) both RNG and MEL-RNG have the same base dly (400) and benefit from haste equally, but melee rng will have more acc both with rng and with melee

3) MEL-RNG will always run in to attack...always, and will chase the mob.. If at any time you are in a circumstance where your pet is not always right next to the mob, MEL-RNG >>>>RNG. Attack per 14seconds vs 10 attacks is a no brainer.


Until we can get more gear like regin mittens where me and my pet get 5% haste 20acc etc, you will always gear for master > pet, and in those cases i will go with the pet that is garunteed to chase and has higher acc.