Incursion: a possible solution for the Augmented Capes

[Zhronne]

I have a short analysys and a proposed solution to share on which I'd like to gather more opinions and, possibly, to stimulate the community reps' attention.


1. Why do the Augmented Capes have such randomness?
Without any form of randomness included, people would have been done with Incursion since long and wouldn't be interested in doing it anymore.
Thanks to the fact players have no control at all over capes and their stats, people keep doing the event.
This keeps players busy and avoids a scenario where they stay afk in towns whining about being bored having nothing to do: "Hey devs give us something to do!"
This demand would put additional pressure on devs to create and release new content, which is not sustainable atm given their current task force.
The way Incursion is now instead makes the event long lasting and it is hence beneficial for the health of the game and its players.
tl;dr A certain degree of randomness is necessary and unavoidable


2. What is the current level of randomness in the system?
There are several layers

First there's a random chance for a cape to drop from Incursion Coffers. (other random items/gil can drop as well)
Then there's a chance for that cape to be one of those you want, out of the 22 possible.
Then there's a chance for that cape to have one of more augments on it, out of the four possible ones on each cape.
Last, there's a chance for that augment to have an interesting value, out of the possible range each specific augment has

Players have no degree of control over this. The only things they can choose are

fighting one of the 5 bosses instead of the megaboss. Each of the 5 bosses have a specific set of possible capes they can drop from their specific coffers. Megaboss can drop them all.
raising the difficulty, which will generate a higher amount of coffers being dropped after a boss is defeated (more coffers > more chance that there will be a cape in one of them


3. What are the problems in this?
The degree of control players have over this is non-existant.
Despite what we said about specific bosses vs Megaboss, it's usually not time-efficient to farm specific bosses, given how the chance of a cape being inside a coffer is higher on the megaboss (megaboss NQ coffers have roughly the same chance as specific bosses HQ coffers).
Raising difficulty makes the odds slightly better, but in the long run it doesn't really change the frustration that can come out of the event for players.

This also create other issues.
First: In the ergonomy of FFXI, job specific augments have always been particularly precious and almost game-changing. Aside from small exceptions, they've always been relegated to fixed stats on job specific equipment. Likewise random augments have mostly been on generic stats, before Incursion.
Second and last: it creates additional and unnecessary strain on players inventories. And we all know how already delicate the situation is. (for instance you could get multiple capes of the same type, each with different augments, and you might want to keep them all to use in different situations, hence increasing the amount of wasted space in your inventory)


4. What could a possible solution be?
We already said how randomness is a necessity and taking it out wouldn't be beneficial.
In light of this, I propose the addition of a new NPC.
It will work similarly to how the Skirmish NPC works.
This NPC will accept a specific augmented cape in trade. After that you can trade the NPC another augmented cape of any type, and this will give you a chance to re-roll the stats on the first cape you traded.
You will then see a preview of the re-rolled stats, and you'll be prompted wether to accept the new one or keep the old one.

I feel such a solution would mantain the randomness of the event and hence the long-lasting appeal of it, but at the same time give a more acceptable degree of control to players while mantaining the philosophy of the event sustainable for both players and developers.



Thanks for reading, please discuss.

[Olor]

I like this suggestion.

[Camiie]

I too think you're on to something here. In the past SE was notorious for inserting too many layers of randomness into their loot systems. Just when it seemed like they were getting away from that with Delve's point system and the newer Skirmish's orbs and stones, they backslide hard with Incursion. I dare say it makes Voidwatch jealous with its trash to treasure ratio.

[Crevox]

As I've said before, I've done quite a lot of Incursion, doing the final tier of Gramk-Droog, etc. I've also formed/joined many Liij-Vok farm parties.

I've gotten about 5 summoner capes so far, and all of them have had +0 or +1 Blood Pact damage, and I still have yet to see a single one with Blood Pact delay reduction. The highest skill I've seen is +4.

Farming it just feels like a waste of time. You could farm for hours and not even see a single cape, and even if you do, it will likely end up being garbage. Yet, for some jobs (Summoner) the stats on it are so good and are such an upgrade over MANY other items that you really don't have a choice. Then you get to join parties and see everyone else get the capes you need. That is, IF you can even get a party, because farming something like Liij-Vok does not appeal to many people, resulting it in being difficult to even get a party together, and then kill him a reasonable number of times. Then you have the super randomness as stated in the opening post.

Sigh. Please change this.

[Camiie]

For two of the jobs I play often, SMN and RNG, I haven't even seen one augmented cape of any quality. An LS member mentioned in chat that he tossed two poor ones the other night. I would have been glad even for those. If the randomness is supposed to be encouraging me to continue to do the event, then it's backfiring hard. Is this going to be the new old Dynamis where people waited 3 years for a RDM hat? About the only saving grace is I'm not forced to lot against everyone else.

[Olor]

Things like this are so random you'd almost rather lot against someone else. If all those capes were in the pool and you could seacom one, you'd have a better chance of getting one that's at least for the job you want.

[dasva]

I'd like to add that instead of just augmented capes that would be nice if you could trade in unaugmented ones too though maybe make it harder... like need 3 of the same kind or something

[Urteil]

Let every augmented cape be traded at shady Velkk for a randomized cape of the job you are currently on or select. This way, every cape is a chance at one you want.

[Martel]

My preference, would be a cape combining system.

Let's say you have two augmented capes of the same type. You trade one to the NPC to be used as the base. Then the second to be used as the material. The base would maintain is full current augments.

In the case that both capes had the same type of augment, the potency would be increased by a small increment for each matching aug. +1 for things with low caps like str+. Maybe 2~ for stuff that caps at 20 like indi effect duration.

In the case that the material has an augment the base doesn't, that augment would be added to the base at a reduced potency. Probably half or less.

This method would retain a fair bit of the RNG, since you have to farm enough capes of the proper augs to build your cape up. But it removes the total frustration of having to try to roll that 0.0001% chance of the right cape with perfect augs. This way you can build up you cape slowly over time. Benefiting slightly every time you manage to get a cape for your jobs.

You might think this would make ppl finished too fast, but I don't. The RNG is still very much there... After god knows how many skirmish MB runs, I've still NEVER seen a Phalanx+ augment on PLD cape at all. Much less a +5. So even if this system had been implemented from the start, I'd still be working on it. I'd just be a hell of a lot less pissed off. And have better capes for my other jobs. -.-;

The down side, is that this is a bit more complicated to implement than a simple trade in for a reroll system. But hey, that doesn't matter. SE isn't gonna implement either of these anyway, so the difficulty for the devs is a non-issue. lol

[Zhronne]

because farming something like Liij-Vok does not appeal to many people
Yes.
But as I stated before, Megaboss NQ crates have roughly the same chance of content being a cape as normal bosses' HQ crates.
When you factor that in, most likely you'll get more chances to get what you want from Grammk's coffers, despite the larger pool, compared to farming specific bosses for a specific type of cape.


@Martel
Cape combining would be the best but I'm afraid:
1) it would be technically challenging for them to develop because they didn't create the capes augment system that way
2) as much as I'd love it, it would give players too much control over the randomness, which I hate, but evidentely it's intended to be part of this system. It's unreasonable to expect them to change that much.

The suggestion I made instead, or very similar ones, I can see as "possible" if they ever want to bother with doing something about it, it would be pretty simple to implement, it would give us a less frustrating and higher degree of control over capes, but at the same time it would keep a high enough level of randomness, that devs seem to love so much.
I just tried to suggest something I could see realistically being implemented, not the system of my dreams, of course =/

[Martel]

Honestly, I think expecting the devs to do anything about this at all is what's unrealistic. And sure, The reroll is more likely, because it's easier.

But I really doubt the combination system would be any kinda of real challenge to a professional programmer. I think even I could code something in lua that would spit out new cape augs, given the old augs. And I'm no more than an rank amateur at coding. Sure you'd need more that just that. there's got to be a interface. A way of storing the augments on the traded capes on a NPC(Synergy and skirmish NPCs hold both your old and new augs for viewing, so there's precedent for this). A way to get back your first cape if you don't trade a second, etc. But I don't really see any of that as a massive challenge either. But hey, amateur. What do I know?

But since we're both dreaming of a change that won't happen, I say may as well dream big. If we get any improvement at all, I'll be happy. But I'd rather tell SE what I want, over what scraps I think they might throw me.

[Crevox]

Yes.
But as I stated before, Megaboss NQ crates have roughly the same chance of content being a cape as normal bosses' HQ crates.
When you factor that in, most likely you'll get more chances to get what you want from Grammk's coffers, despite the larger pool, compared to farming specific bosses for a specific type of cape.

Even if this is accurate, it goes from being a 1/5 to get the cape you want to being a 1/22.

Is that really worth it?

You might say like, oh, well you can get any of the other capes too, so you might get one for another job you want, but I literally only care about the SMN cape. The GEO cape might be nice (even though I have one already), but I don't care enough to bother. I only want the SMN cape.

[Protey]

could be worse, could have no augments at all. plus the event gives a ton of exp and CP. I like it.

[Zhronne]

Honestly, I think expecting the devs to do anything about this at all is what's unrealistic.
Alas, I concur.
Unless a massive drama were to outburst somewhere, but it's clearly not the case here.
Despite the odds (furtherly lower because they seem to have little concern for feedbacks coming from the non-JP playerbase, sadly) I still thought it was worth the 5 mins it took me to write it down, nothing to lose in trying, no?

[Zhronne]

Even if this is accurate, it goes from being a 1/5 to get the cape you want to being a 1/22.
I'm no math expert, but I think it's different than that.
Allow me to make a silly example using fake numbers. Let's say this is the (fake) table with rates. It shows the chance a coffer will have a cape (of any suitable type) inside.

NQ Boss => 5%
HQ Boss => 10%
NQ Mega => 10%
HQ Mega => 15%

Now you have to consider how many crates each killed NM drop. Let's say ilevel 129, I don't remember how many crates 129 drop, let's say 7 since it's just an example I'm making.
These 7 will be split between NQ and HQ, depending on luck and TH. I dunno about average but let's say uhm 5 NQ and 2 HQ?
So a more accurate comparison would be:

5x 5% + 2x 10% ==> * 1/5 (chance of being a cape you want)
versus
5x 10% + 2x 15% ==> * 1/22 (chance of being a cape you want)

Another important aspect you might consider outside of these numbers, is that if you're fighting MB you won't have to bother to find people specifically interested in that specific NM and who also have the jobs you need.
Anybody will be interested in MB.



tl;dr
Not saying it's completely worthless to target a specific boss, especially if you have the good conditions/friends to spam it.
But do not rule out MB runs like I used to do.
I used to think like you but had to change my mind after reading reports from Malithar and other people on BG forums.
Now I kinda prefer to spam MB runs honestly. It's just faster, more efficient, and in the end I manage to make more runs (i.e. even more chances) thanks to the time I save setting the group up.

[Ramzi]

Has anyone else already obtained all the rare/ex equipment from incursion that they want, and are only after capes now? I know thats the situation I'm in. Just got the final pieceI was looking for- Meko Harness, last week on a 127 MB win. Felt like the rare/ex equipment dropped like rain, while the capes are so rare, and when you do get a cape it's trash or not for the job you want.

Last run I did manage to get a RNG cape with I think AGI and STR mods, plus maybe subtle blow? Can't remember. Not great anyway, but better than NQ. On that same run 3 different LS mates said they got BLU capes, and I've yet to get one, and it's the job I play the most.

RNG sucks. (random number generator, not Ranger lol)

[Malithar]

Mega Boss spam runs are surely the way to go. You give up your reduced job pool for specific capes for a vastly increased cape drop rate, while gaining people that are more interested since you're not targeting only 4ish capes. There's the money aspect as well, as little as it may be anymore; Arise is still a good half mil on most servers AFAIK.

Doubt we'll see any changes in the short term to Incursion, but eventually things will need to be changed I think. Some capes are simply "better" pieces for the jobs, like Wars, it's just a better DD cape. But Smn? You get BPII -3 in a slot where none was available, while gaining many other important avatar stats. Geo gets a direct +20% up time to Entrust. Pld gets Phalanx +5. Rdm gets a large increase to buff duration. Pup gets Automaton TP+500. The effects are too specific and too powerful to be forever locked behind RNG and finding other interested individuals IMO, but they'll stay locked behind that for awhile longer no doubt.

[dasva]

Not only locked behind RNG but RNG that requires you to redo a whole event just to reroll. People groan but at least somewhat put up with skirmish because you don't have to do a skirmish run everytime you want to try for another aug (that and there are more close equivalents). Plus it's not even necessarily specific stats that make some of these capes so good. Some just stack so much good they become great. Look at rng with no augs it's decent but then with augs it can become itself +empyrean cape which is still good and even some snapshot which doesn't exist elsewhere in slot. Or run... combine augments with original stats and you get a cape great for DDing and tanking with 8 DT a bunch of acc, DA and mab. Bst is another example. Right now for bst pet capes you have to decide between stats like pdt, acc or att. With the augments you can get all 3 except that pdt becomes DT. Really you can make an argument for almost every cape and why it shouldn't be so frustrating to get

[Zhronne]

Not only locked behind RNG but RNG that requires you to redo a whole event just to reroll.
Exactely!
Which is kinda the point of the suggestions we made.

[Zhronne]

So in the new patch there will be an NPC allowing to augment JSE capes with arcane glyphics.
Wonder how much this will turn out to be something similar to what was originally requested in the opening post of this thread ;)

[Sapphires]

Would have preferred a system like this, combined the random system with a progression based one:
Make mecisto mantle no longer a wearable cape, add a player stat called 'CP Bonus'.

1st Turn in your best CP cape (+48%) to set your base stat, requires all KI+megaboss KI of any content level.
NPC sets your CP bonus stat is now +48.00%

2nd and all capes after the 1st add 1/100th onto your existing base rate
Turn in another cape (+27%),
NPC increases your CP bonus stat to +48.27% (+0.27% not 27% since it is not 1st cape turnin)

Now all 'cp capes' are useful and worth something, you get incremental progression and getting lucky on augment is still worth something.
Would give incursion more longevity and nq coffers more worthwhile to spam opening.

They could then make that CP bonus stat cap out at +100% or whatever.

*The 1st step setting the base CP bonus stat could also be repeated by an NPC menu option, if somehow you previously had a lower rate like +30% due to bad cape luck.
This would let someone who later gets a +50% cape to 'upgrade' their base rate past their current best.

[Ramzi]

Would have preferred a system like this, combined the random system with a progression based one:
Make mecisto mantle no longer a wearable cape, add a player stat called 'CP Bonus'.

1st Turn in your best CP cape (+48%) to set your base stat, requires all KI+megaboss KI of any content level.
NPC sets your CP bonus stat is now +48.00%

2nd and all capes after the 1st add 1/100th onto your existing base rate
Turn in another cape (+27%),
NPC increases your CP bonus stat to +48.27% (+0.27% not 27% since it is not 1st cape turnin)

Now all 'cp capes' are useful and worth something, you get incremental progression and getting lucky on augment is still worth something.
Would give incursion more longevity and nq coffers more worthwhile to spam opening.

They could then make that CP bonus stat cap out at +100% or whatever.

*The 1st step setting the base CP bonus stat could also be repeated by an NPC menu option, if somehow you previously had a lower rate like +30% due to bad cape luck.
This would let someone who later gets a +50% cape to 'upgrade' their base rate past their current best.

Except there's really nothing wrong with the CP mantle system. Not sure what you're suggesting. Keep opening coffers and eventually you'll get a 50% or something close to it.

JSE cape system is extremely broken. One lucky coffer can instantly elevate you above others. A RUN in my LS opened a coffer with a RUN JSE cape with +5% DA, plus other great stats. Probably a one in a million of getting something that good. With so much randomness, no one can ever be on the same level with other players no matter how much time and effort is put in. That's why changes were needed and I'm glad SE recognized it.

[Sapphires]

The point of a system getting rid of CP capes is so we can go back to using our JSE capes when doing CP parties, I dont want the -1 inventory for a +CP% cape. The current system should be trashed and made a levelable stat instead.
I've had a cape with 48% forever and a system that levels up and grows to higher % well past 50% would be better and give a reason to go back and do more incursion.

Its beyond stupid I have to make equipment sets with a mecisto mantle in them just for a party setting to maximize CP/hr because monsters can die while I am in my tp set or weaponskill set.

[dasva]

Also the idea that you have to fulltime an item (you could try switching before mob dies but you will miss it often enough that I wouldn't) to increase your cp gain is kinda bad especially when that full timing lowers your dps (unless you a support job but you already have problems with getting hit in non ilvl or lower ilvl gear) therefore lowering cp gain. Sure overall cape helps but it hurts some too

[Zhronne]

Except there's really nothing wrong with the CP mantle system.
I find it wrong from several points of view.
First we should know why they decided to create it. Was it because they thought CP/hr rate was a bit low and they wanted to raise it a bit?
Then they should have done it for all players, at the same rate.
As it stands now it's a big bonus only for people who do incursion or for those lucky enough to get a 50% cape (trust me I do a lot of incursion and I still haven't seen one better than 42%. A friend's mule got a 50% one on his first Incursion run).
This is pretty unfair imho. If they judge the rate being too low, they should raise it for everybody evenly.

Secondly there's the inventory issue. Basically you're forced to gimp yourself (unable to use the back slot) to partially compensate for the low value of CP/Hr that you get from killing mobs.

I use my cape, but I can't say I like it or that it's an elegant game design solution, quite the other way around.

[Camiie]

Thank goodness! I thought I was the only one who found the CP cape system absurd all the way around.

[Ramzi]

I must have misunderstood the post then. I meant there's nothing wrong with how you get CP+ mantles. Do incursion and eventually you'll get a decent one. I agree it's a pain to have to equip it in place of better gear.

I also agree that it's almost like admitting the CP rate is too low. But they are also admitting that by holding double CP events ever couple of weeks.

[dasva]

See but content shouldn't be the gateway to what is effectively a leveling system. To gear and maybe quest/mission/storyline progression sure. But not to lvl grinding. It's very odd way of doing things. You grind out your character to do events not grind out your character to do events so you can grind out your character better.

Could you imagine if back in the day when xping sucked they had made a +50% xp cape... but it only dropped off of dynamis nms? And then had similar bad droprates and horribly RNG when it came to getting good amounts on it

[Grekumah]

Thanks for the detailed suggestion Zhronne.

Let me share some information with you since we are planning to make adjustments to job specific capes and arcane glyptics in the February version update.

In the February version update, we’re going to add a new NPC which will add arcane glyptics to job specific capes by trading the cape and a new item which will be added in the update.

This NPC will have the same arcane glyptics as the ones attached to the job specific capes that drop from Incursion. It’ll also be possible to re-add arcane glyptic to job specific capes that already have arcane glyptics.

With the addition of this feature, it’ll be relatively easier to obtain job specific capes with arcane glyptics. We’re also planning to increase the drop rate of the job specific capes from Incursion to go along with this change. We’ll have more details in the patch notes and we’re also planning to introduce this in Freshly Picked Vana’diel.

[detlef]

Cautiously optimistic.

[dasva]

Wait I thought we already knew that.... now what really depends on what is needed to re-aug and how it drops. If it's from incursion... you've not really solved anything unless it has some boss droprates and/or sellable. Even then it could just end up like skirmish rng a huge ie gil sink