[dev1003] Hand-to-hand fighters got the brunt end of the stick on triggers!D:

[Krystal]

*/shocked*

ya..i'm making a thread supporting abyssea..please die of shock trolls....(no really..please die of shock....-_-; ) XD

anyways.....

Monks and puppetmasters specifically are the focus of this topic since they use hand-to-hand weapons more than any other job in the game.

My Puppetmaster is currently level 90 hand-to-hand practically capped. yay right? well while that's all good and great i can't help but notice that hand-to-hand weapons have absolutely no triggers for atma drops. this imo just isn't right. some of us have worked our butts off to get these jobs up to try and farm our own atma only to find out we can't trigger anything! it's even worse when your in a party farming for atma and you get saddled with the Time Extension farming party even though you obviously a DD job. or worse case...they don't want you to come at all! i have spoken to many players who love to play their Puppetmaster jobs and their Monk jobs but are forced to either sit out or switch jobs when it comes to atma hunting. My suggestion is this span out the range of types of weapons that can trigger both red and blue triggers so WE ALL CAN PLAY OUR PART and not be saddled to the side or not invited along due to our lack of higher level jobs that use the weapons needed for said trigger.

[Frost]

Are you kidding me?

Mnk can cover every single blunt trigger but Hexa-strike.

Mnk + Whm on blunt time can trigger blue 100% of the time.

[Alkalinehoe]

What the hell are you talking about? MNK can do all but one (hexa strike) for blue !! stagger during blunt time. That in itself is already pretty broken. And no one cares about lolPUP.

[Krystal]

Are you kidding me?

Mnk can cover every single blunt trigger but Hexa-strike.

Mnk + Whm on blunt time can trigger blue 100% of the time.

i'm speaking more about atma's in this thread than blue triggers. but the main purpose of this thread is to suggest spreading out the range.

[Fiarlia]

...Why did you put a [dev1003] in the topic title?

And your topic title also says "Hand-to-hand fighters got the brunt end of the stick on triggers!D:" How the hell is this about Atmas? What, proc'ing red? Well, make friends with a WAR and a NIN, or come as one of those two jobs yourself.

Regardless, you're still not getting the "brunt end of the stick" on triggers... just not the ones YOU want... I swear, next you'll complain about not being able to proc grellow on PUP when you're going after seals for your AF3+1...

Seriously, just stop complaining and whining about everything.

[RAIST]

umm... you do have other weapons you can use.

For red stagger, you need elemental WS damage. There are no H2H WS that are purely elemental. But..... there is staff (MNK can natively proc with it) and Club (have to /WHM or PLD, etc). Pup can also use Daggers and Club--again, have to set the right subjob to have access to the right WS.

I've done this many times on my MNK. Just need to think outside the box a little people.

[Kaida]

mnk/war with a event polearm can proc red.


It's never polearm they said but it was!

[Seha]

You can proc dagger with pup subing dnc or nin. Club subing war. It's not really a problem.

[Runespider]

i'm speaking more about atma's in this thread than blue triggers. but the main purpose of this thread is to suggest spreading out the range.

If they did spread out procs they would spread out blue procs more too, meaning mnk couldnt solo proc almost every blunt proc. so yeah no, lets leave it as it is thank you.

[Kaida]

I wanna know is why ranged ele attacks are not reds -.-

[Bhujerba]

I agree with the OP to a point, the weakness system is kinda lackluster, certain jobs got the most benefit from it and made them more appealing, when SE was finally trying to do away with that since 2010.

There is a problem OP, Red weakness for example is triggered by elemental WS's which would be very weird to introduce an Elemental WS for H2H users just for weakness proc'ing when they naturally don't have one iirc, I believe they should have taken that into account when they first designed the system.

Increasing the number of WS's/spells/etc that can trigger weakness's is also not an option IMO, because that will only make proc'ing rarer, for example if they add COR Quick draw ability to proc Yellow weakness, that's for COR would be very nice but for the rest of the community, it would be horrible because now you have to account for exclusive job ability that may be difficult to be available.

[PizzaTheHut]

...Why did you put a [dev1003] in the topic title?

Agreed. Stop using dev tags improperly people...

Again: Please be sure to utilize the "dev tag" system when commenting on subjects from the "In Development" forum.

As the "In Development" forum threads indicate:
"To hold a discussion and/or submit feedback on [each] topic, please use "dev****" as a tag"
Look for your topic of interest in the "In Development" forum.

Not that hard to understand. When I see a topic like this with a dev tag in front of it I'm assuming theirs new news and this is the official discussion topic.

Stop putting tags on your threads that have nothing to do with the topics in the "In development" section just to grab attention.

[HFX7686]

What? MNKs have a sweet nighttime deal, as others have pointed out. This is such a pointless topic.

[SNK]

*/shocked*

ya..i'm making a thread supporting abyssea..please die of shock trolls....(no really..please die of shock....-_-; ) XD

anyways.....

Monks and puppetmasters specifically are the focus of this topic since they use hand-to-hand weapons more than any other job in the game.

My Puppetmaster is currently level 90 hand-to-hand practically capped. yay right? well while that's all good and great i can't help but notice that hand-to-hand weapons have absolutely no triggers for atma drops. this imo just isn't right. some of us have worked our butts off to get these jobs up to try and farm our own atma only to find out we can't trigger anything! it's even worse when your in a party farming for atma and you get saddled with the Time Extension farming party even though you obviously a DD job. or worse case...they don't want you to come at all! i have spoken to many players who love to play their Puppetmaster jobs and their Monk jobs but are forced to either sit out or switch jobs when it comes to atma hunting. My suggestion is this span out the range of types of weapons that can trigger both red and blue triggers so WE ALL CAN PLAY OUR PART and not be saddled to the side or not invited along due to our lack of higher level jobs that use the weapons needed for said trigger.

Are you seriously confused? MNK and WHM can cover a huge range of triggers for Blue during blunt hours. This kinda thread is pointless and please don't use the Dev Tags for posts like this. It's annoying.

[Alhanelem]

What the hell are you talking about? MNK can do all but one (hexa strike) for blue !! stagger during blunt time. That in itself is already pretty broken. And no one cares about lolPUP.
You know what? I care. PUP is not LOL anymore. It can stand with the other DDs easily. I don't agree there is a problem (as far as the OP), and the only HTH MNK has that PUP doesn't is Asuran, but I will take issue with anyone who labels PUP "LOL." It's childish, immature, and just plain false.

MNK and PUP both get access to the same awesome WS, victory smite. PUP can solo light with it, MNK can't. And it doesn't do significantly less damage when used by PUP. MNK's significantly higher attack speed is made up for by the presence of the automaton, which now isn't lost for extended periods of time if it dies anymore.

With the advent of abyssea, DRK's lack of a crit WS on its primary weapon pretty much lands it the title of weakest job in there. But I still don't use the term 'lol'.

[Kagato]

*/shocked*

ya..i'm making a thread supporting abyssea..please die of shock trolls....(no really..please die of shock....-_-; ) XD

Just because someone is anti-abyssea doesn't make them trolls. People who value a different opinion than you aren't trolls. This opening sentence was being more of a troll than anti/pro-abyssea people.

[RaenRyong]

H2h is good enough...

[Malamasala]

I'm pretty sure you aren't supposed to be able to do everything alone. A couple of things should require party members.

[Flunklesnarkin]

This has to be a troll thread..

mnk + whm are the best possible combination for farming armor / weapon drops (blue weakness triggers)

[Rambus]

I'm pretty sure you aren't supposed to be able to do everything alone. A couple of things should require party members.

like NIN/PLD convering 10/13 red?

The trigger system I am confused on, was it suppose to encourage PT play or try to be a game of see what job can proc the most?

SCH is left out
MNK is left out of red (though MNK is not left out of abyssea it is most damanded job so i cam confused aboout this topic)
RNG is left out (has 6 blue?)
COR is left out ( has I dont know blue because i think it has some dagger and mark) can do some extra red and blue depending on sub.
PUP is left out
DRG is left out ( only has 2 blue no one else can do)
PLD is left out ( only has 1 blue no one else can do)
RDM is left out ( ohh dagger and sword something a lot can do, some are sub depdent)
DRK is left out ( though DRK is decent rep for war when you cannot get one)

procing is left mainly to MNK,NIN, and WAR. toss in a WHM for good measure ( need one for healing) then a BLM for yellow and you have a lot covered right there. pulled in blunt time? np for this group, who cares about lol piercing mode.

If SE made new procs:
orange, green, purple, android green, anti flash white. aqua, aquamarine, Bule ball, blue gray, blue-green, blue violet, byzantium, etc .....I am sure these few jbos would find a way to do it

[Alhanelem]

I want them to get rid of procs altogether, so that there's no pointless waiting around for this artificial incentive to slow down a fight. It's rare that these weaknesses are actually exploited to gan an advantage in the fight, it's always for the extra drops. Please, just let us kill our monsters as fast as we are able and not waste time for no good reason. It's no fun to be a DD and just stand there and watch until the mages get the yellow proc, nor is it fun for the mages to just sit around and wait for the DDs to get the blue/red procs.

[Alkalinehoe]

You know what? I care. PUP is not LOL anymore. It can stand with the other DDs easily. I don't agree there is a problem (as far as the OP), and the only HTH MNK has that PUP doesn't is Asuran, but I will take issue with anyone who labels PUP "LOL." It's childish, immature, and just plain false.

MNK and PUP both get access to the same awesome WS, victory smite. PUP can solo light with it, MNK can't. And it doesn't do significantly less damage when used by PUP. MNK's significantly higher attack speed is made up for by the presence of the automaton, which now isn't lost for extended periods of time if it dies anymore.

With the advent of abyssea, DRK's lack of a crit WS on its primary weapon pretty much lands it the title of weakest job in there. But I still don't use the term 'lol'.

Nope. Still lolPUP!


I want them to get rid of procs altogether, so that there's no pointless waiting around for this artificial incentive to slow down a fight. It's rare that these weaknesses are actually exploited to gan an advantage in the fight, it's always for the extra drops. Please, just let us kill our monsters as fast as we are able and not waste time for no good reason. It's no fun to be a DD and just stand there and watch until the mages get the yellow proc, nor is it fun for the mages to just sit around and wait for the DDs to get the blue/red procs.
You act like procs don't do anything. If everything you do in Abyssea is procless I feel bad for you.

[Alhanelem]

Nope. Still lolPUP!You're either ignorant, or you're intentionally trolling me to get a charge out of it. I'm hoping and expecting it's the latter, but either way it's not appriciated and I won't hesitate to report you if you're intentionally trying to get on my nerves.

You act like procs don't do anything. If everything you do in Abyssea is procless I feel bad for you. Nothing I do in abyssea is procless. I'm saying I wish procs didn't exist. I don't care that they do something. instead of making us beat around the bush to get a few more drops, just increase the d**n drop rate.

The reason I hate procs is they are an extremely artificial way to drag out a fight and stop people from killing things quickly.

[Alkalinehoe]

You're either ignorant, or you're intentionally trolling me to get a charge out of it. I'm hoping and expecting it's the latter, but either way it's not appriciated and I won't hesitate to report you if you're intentionally trying to get on my nerves.
Yes, I posted my comment before yours in hopes that you would read it and get on your nerves. Makes perfect sense. It was a small joke that went over your head. I never intended it for it to get on anyone's nerves, but I think it's pretty funny now that you did.


Nothing I do in abyssea is procless. I'm saying I wish procs didn't exist. I don't care that they do something. instead of making us beat around the bush to get a few more drops, just increase the d**n drop rate.

Why? If that were the case mostly everything could be done WHM+MNK or WHM+THF without any consequence at all. Going for 100% procs all the time makes more jobs appealing, and ultimately necessary for being more efficient. It's this reason why BLU/BRD/BLM/WAR/NIN are a very valuable asset in Abyssea, apart from damage dealing/support.

[Seha]

Oh please... /leave thread.

[Alhanelem]

Why? If that were the case mostly everything could be done WHM+MNK or WHM+THF without any consequence at all. Going for 100% procs all the time makes more jobs appealing, and ultimately necessary for being more efficient. It's this reason why BLU/BRD/BLM/WAR/NIN are a very valuable asset in Abyssea, apart from damage dealing/support. It doesn't make more jobs appealing. Only a couple people are needed to cover almost all the procs. And the fact that they're "more appealing" because they're needed to cast 1 spell or use 1 weaponskill (and that's the only real reason they're there) I think is a problem.

I maintain procs exist largely as a means to slow down fights and counter "zerging." If they want to slow down fights, they should do it by making them more challenging instead of going "we'll let you get more drops, but only if you get a random person to trigger a random weakness with 1 random spell/weaponskill."

In essence, they could have made more jobs appealing by designing monsters that required their abilities, or by making fights more challenging in general, but instead, we get weakness procs.

[Rambus]

Yes, I posted my comment before yours in hopes that you would read it and get on your nerves. Makes perfect sense. It was a small joke that went over your head. I never intended it for it to get on anyone's nerves, but I think it's pretty funny now that you did.



Why? If that were the case mostly everything could be done WHM+MNK or WHM+THF without any consequence at all. Going for 100% procs all the time makes more jobs appealing, and ultimately necessary for being more efficient. It's this reason why BLU/BRD/BLM/WAR/NIN are a very valuable asset in Abyssea, apart from damage dealing/support.

pretty much this, you want abyssea to be singled down to 2 jobs or 6?

[Alkalinehoe]

It doesn't make more jobs appealing. Only a couple people are needed to cover almost all the procs. And the fact that they're "more appealing" because they're needed to cast 1 spell or use 1 weaponskill (and that's the only real reason they're there) I think is a problem.

I maintain procs exist largely as a means to slow down fights and counter "zerging." If they want to slow down fights, they should do it by making them more challenging instead of going "we'll let you get more drops, but only if you get a random person to trigger a random weakness with 1 random spell/weaponskill."

In essence, they could have made more jobs appealing by designing monsters that required their abilities, or by making fights more challenging in general, but instead, we get weakness procs.
On some mobs getting staggers is pretty challenging (compared to normal mobs), ICs, Shinryu, anything that casts often, etc. Especially when the stagger is a really long spell or doesn't land very well (Tornado/1k Needles). I don't think the jobs that are asked to come proc weakness are there only for the weakness. When I'm called BLU to events I usually DD and help stun things, makes the fight go by a lot faster/safer.

There are still difficult battles in Abyssea, low manning panko is pretty fun especially when he pops his 2hr. Fighting Shinryu/Rani without brew is the same.

If anything procs encourage zerging. My shell usually procs red weakness below 50% and zerg it down. It makes the fight much much safer and faster.

[Alhanelem]

If anything procs encourage zerging. My shell usually procs red weakness below 50% and zerg it down. It makes the fight much much safer and faster. But you don't proc red weakness only, unless it's only for a key item. And it can still take time to get the red proc, which means more waiting. If you need more than one proc, red is always last. Which means you've already spent time waiting around for those 2 people to get the yellow and blue.



There are still difficult battles in Abyssea, low manningWell, that's part of the problem IMO. Most battles with a few exceptions are not difficult unless you intentionally make them difficult (e.g. by low manning or imposing some artificial restriction on yourself for fun's sake).

I just hate the artificial and generic nature of procs. I would rather the mob be challenging and take time because of its behaviors and characteristics, not because of a bland, artificial-feeling mechanic globally applied to all NMs in abyssea.

[Alkalinehoe]

But you don't proc red weakness only, unless it's only for a key item. And it can still take time to get the red proc, which means more waiting. If you need more than one proc, red is always last. Which means you've already spent time waiting around for those 2 people to get the yellow and blue.

Well, that's part of the problem IMO. Most battles with a few exceptions are not difficult unless you intentionally make them difficult (e.g. by low manning or imposing some artificial restriction on yourself for fun's sake).
With the discernment Abyssite it shouldn't take that long. And I hope your mages could proc Yellow/Blue in the first 50% of it's HP. We usually never have an issue with that except. Not to mention you aren't likely to go after all three staggers at once.

[Alhanelem]

And I hope your mages could proc Yellow/Blue in the first 50% of it's HP.Normally yes, though there are some mobs where it's not as easy, and there are also some times where the game just doesn't give the hint until almost everything has already been tried.

Like I said, it's just personal taste about the system. It is an artificial mechanic (versus say, a mob having resistance to magic, or a weakness to ranged attacks) that is applied in a generic manner (same effect on all mobs, same method of applying on all mobs). I just don't like it, and I disagree with the notion that it encourages job variety, because some jobs are very limited in their ability to trigger anything (as has already been mentioned) while other jobs can do almost all of them.

[Krystal]

Just because someone is anti-abyssea doesn't make them trolls. People who value a different opinion than you aren't trolls. This opening sentence was being more of a troll than anti/pro-abyssea people.

lol i think you mistook me for someone who liked abyssea..i don't like it but i've grown to deal with it...

[SNK]

MNK is left out of red

Almost.....

You forget MNKs can use Staves as well.

[Alhanelem]

lol i think you mistook me for someone who liked abyssea..i don't like it but i've grown to deal with it...
So far you haven't established that you like anything except for "old" dynamis. Why don't you tell us what you DO like?

[Alkalinehoe]

So far you haven't established that you like anything except for "old" dynamis.

She also likes 3k/hr exp parties.

[Rambus]

Almost.....

You forget MNKs can use Staves as well.

blarg >< club red yeah opps point is,... errr hmmm

point is why should a few jobs be left to procing? I can understand something that does not require 18 jobs but so many seems left out.

[Vold]

Yeah well you know what? I hope those that are taking advantage of the current Abyssea situation finishes the task because at this rate of where this thread is going it won't be long before we're back to 18 man LS alliances to get anything done. Then I'm sure some months after that change people will be complaining about not getting anywhere with low mans and how it was better before...

You know what the problem is? It's not that a handful of jobs can dominate procs. It's that SE used a pattern for them and we figured it out. Make pearl and azure totally random like red appears to be(I will bet the farm there is a pattern to it too, albeit wicked but a pattern nonetheless) That's about the best you can do. We don't need more of them. We just need them to be random. Even though I rather they not be fricking random but if I had to choose between random and more, I choose random.

[Dazusu]

please die of shock trolls....(no really..please die of shock....-_-; )

You're talking to yourself there, right?

You're one of those people who need to just stop posting. Everything you do post is troll bait, and it's never constructive.

[Cream_Soda]

MNK and PUP both get access to the same awesome WS, victory smite. PUP can solo light with it, MNK can't. And it doesn't do significantly less damage when used by PUP. MNK's significantly higher attack speed is made up for by the presence of the automaton, which now isn't lost for extended periods of time if it dies anymore.
The maton doesn't come close to making up for the gap between mnk and pup. Mnk is miles ahead.

[RAIST]

blarg >< club red yeah opps point is,... errr hmmm

point is why should a few jobs be left to procing? I can understand something that does not require 18 jobs but so many seems left out.

Huh? Every job can proc something. Some may not be able to do all the red on a particular weapon natively and need to set a certain subjob, but they all can proc red with at least ONE weapon that they have a skill in. The problem doesn't appear to be with the system, but with the player(s).

We can low man things in the LS, but we try to grab as many people as possible in a reasonable amount of time to spread out the proc so we can kill faster. 6+ people can get their TP to fire off all the WS a lot faster then just 2 people so we can move into full attack mode and kill crap easier/faster. If someone has discernment it's even better--don't have to wait for someone to switch to the right weapon to build TP after the fight starts if you already have someone standing by with the TP on that weapon already.

Preperation goes a long way towards increasing productivity.

[Alhanelem]

The maton doesn't come close to making up for the gap between mnk and pup. Mnk is miles ahead.
Oh, I forgot, MNKs can solo light and occasionally smite back to back. MNK has an edge, but is not "miles" ahead.

[Cream_Soda]

Oh, I forgot, MNKs can solo light and occasionally smite back to back. MNK has an edge, but is not "miles" ahead.
Yes, it is, lol. Pup is a mid tier job atm. Not close to being top tier.

[Alhanelem]

Yes, it is, lol. Pup is a mid tier job atm. Not close to being top tier.
These "tiers" only exist in your elitist la-la land. The game is well balanced enough (not that there aren't issues) that to lump jobs into a "low" "mid" and "high" tier is ludicrous.

[Cream_Soda]

These "tiers" only exist in your elitist la-la land.

It doesn't matter if you want to call the word tier or not give it a word at all. The fact remains that you have a lot more potential for dealing damage as a monk than you do as a puppetmaster.

That's not saying that all monks will beat all pups. Player skill is definitely a factor, which is why I used the key word, potential. Potential being the job's maximum output. You don't always get that output, it's up to the player and how well they do their job.

Both jobs being played at their max potential, however, pup falls far behind.

The reason I use "tier" is a comparison for max potentials. It has nothing to do w/ elitism, it has to do w/ math and where things actually stand.

I don't mind taking a pup along at all, but I'm not going to play along w/ some illusion that its on competitive terms w/ mnk, war, nin, etc.

[SNK]

It doesn't matter if you want to call the word tier or not give it a word at all. The fact remains that you have a lot more potential for dealing damage as a monk than you do as a puppetmaster.

That's not saying that all monks will beat all pups. Player skill is definitely a factor, which is why I used the key word, potential. Potential being the job's maximum output. You don't always get that output, it's up to the player and how well they do their job.

Both jobs being played at their max potential, however, pup falls far behind.

The reason I use "tier" is a comparison for max potentials. It has nothing to do w/ elitism, it has to do w/ math and where things actually stand.

I don't mind taking a pup along at all, but I'm not going to play along w/ some illusion that its on competitive terms w/ mnk, war, nin, etc.

Couldn't agree with this post even more.

[Alhanelem]

I would agree with it if I trusted Cream_Soda as the one to know every job's "max" potential. But I don't.


It has nothing to do w/ elitism, it has to do w/ math and where things actually stand. Theorycraft all too often fails when you put it into practice. You can't math everything out and then go in the game and have it all perform exactly to your calculations. It is dangerous to rely on numbers without actually doing it. For instance, I remember you telling me that Stringing Pummel should beat Victory Smite on paper, but it doesn't.

[Andylynn]

Player skill is definitely a factor
I disagree with this little line. This game is about proper gear, and atma. A 'skilled' perle war with a bhuj and Raging Rush is not going to out DD a boob with AF3+2 and Ukon :|.

[Alhanelem]

I disagree with this little line. This game is about proper gear, and atma. A 'skilled' perle war with a bhuj and Raging Rush is not going to out DD a boob with AF3+2 and Ukon :|.
Now I'm at odds with Cream a lot, but I have major issues with this. Player skill is a major factor. Gear is not begin-all-end-all. Atma is only in abyssea and will not be a part of any new endgame in the future. Abyssea is essentially a playground for power. People who do not play intelligently absolutely will outperform people who do. Skilled players are also more able to attain the better gear that you say is so essential.

[Andylynn]

Now I'm at odds with Cream a lot, but I have major issues with this. Player skill is a major factor. Gear is not begin-all-end-all. Atma is only in abyssea and will not be a part of any new endgame in the future. Abyssea is essentially a playground for power. People who do not play intelligently absolutely will outperform people who do. Skilled players are also more able to attain the better gear that you say is so essential.

Tell that to the people who just get it handed to them;


By Bahamut.Raenryong 2011-04-03 15:09:32
Also, on a random side note: full aurore JP Kannagi. There are at least two on Bahamut :{

Gear IS the end all be all, it doesnt take any variety of skill to play a job that can one shot pretty much anything, and skill will not make the difference between a clown geared better than the 'intelligent' average joe.

[Alhanelem]

Gear IS the end all be all, it doesnt take any variety of skill to play a job that can one shot pretty much anything, and skill will not make the difference between a clown geared better than the 'intelligent' average joe. I don't know any job that can pretty much one shot anything without any thought or effort. And I remind you that abyssea isn't the entire game. I can oneshot many regular mobs in abyssea on PUP, but if I was a terrible player I would not have reached the point where that would become possible.

You need to do work (or at least, normal people need to do work) to attain this so called begin all end all gear. If you don't have player skill, you're not going to reach the point where you can one shot normal mobs *in abyssea* without thinking.

[Fiarlia]

Call me crazy but I always thought that someone who is skilled will be able to gear their job(s) well, or at the very least know how to do so and work towards it.

Odds are that if someone has excellently geared their job, they're likely to be pretty skilled at it too. And I know this doesn't always hold true, but I'd hardly believe that someone with piss poor gear (like the Kannagi with full Perle you mentioned) is skilled.

Skill isn't restricted to just how well you can press buttons. >.>

[Andylynn]

I don't know any job that can pretty much one shot anything without any thought or effort. And I remind you that abyssea isn't the entire game.

WAR,MNK, NIN, DRG, sometimes SAM with their Fudo.

Saying it isn't is kind of ignorant, most content outside of Abyssea is -dead.- And even if you do do something else, Empyrean weaponskills are still for the most part deadly outside as well.

[Alhanelem]

Skill isn't restricted to just how well you can press buttons. >.> Basically, this. Most people can speak much more eloquently than me :p


WAR,MNK, NIN, DRG, sometimes SAM with their Fudo. Fudo is not a naturally aquired weapon skill. You need to do work for it. You will not make things like this happen without skill and intelligence.

This is not WoW- As much a difference as gear makes, you do not need badass gear to be functional. You need smarts. Only when you have that can you get the badass gear you're talking about (without leeching, anyway).

The empyrean WS are not as disporportionately good otuside of abyssea. Outside, they're just a small step above in most cases. The reason these weapon skills are so good is they're either 1) physical crit WS boosted up the wazoo with Razed Ruins atma, or 2) the best magical WS, boosted up the wazoo with <element> attack up atma.

[Andylynn]

Skill isn't restricted to just how well you can press buttons. >.>
Implying that mmos take any remote degree of difficulty to begin with.. all one is doing is pressing corect buttons at correct times. It really does not take any kind of superior intellect or higher functioning capability in order to find a pUG, or solo an NM in order to get 'amazing gear.'

[Alhanelem]

Implying that mmos take any remote degree of difficulty to begin with.. Clearly you haven't been around this game long enough to know about degree of difficulty. It's different in abyssea- Elsewhere, you can't just put all your enemies to the sword and watch them die. You need a strategy, a plan for winning. You need people who know what they're doing. The game doesn't just play itself.

Go find some unskilled players and take them to fight Rani. Watch as the melees heal it by WSing at the wrong time and mages by not timing their nukes properly. Watch them wipe hard. Then come back to me and tell me you don't need any skill.

[Kuishen]

Hey look. Another person who doesn't know how to use Dev Tags. Automatically makes the entire topic not worth reading, because if they can't comprehend how to use a very simple system, they can't be in a position to suggest changes to the game.

[Andylynn]

Clearly you haven't been around this game long enough to know about degree of difficulty. It's different in abyssea- Elsewhere, you can't just put all your enemies to the sword and watch them die. You need a strategy, a plan for winning. You need people who know what they're doing. The game doesn't just play itself.

The game never was difficult to begin with, and almost every strategy from anecdotes past involved throwing bodies at NMs such as AV. There was no difficulty, no strategy, just extreme time consumption and zerging. Vets keep talking about 'Abyssea made the game easy.' But it was always easy, it just helped ease the necessity of time investment. (You don't learn anything from exp parties, so trying to claim leveling made people skilled back them is a farse too.)

[Alhanelem]

The game never was difficult to begin with, and almost every strategy from anecdotes past involved throwing bodies at NMs such as AV.Like I said, you clearly haven't been around the game long enough. You've clearly not fought and won every BCNM, every CoP misison before their nerf, clearly didn't beat any of the major HNMs when they were new. The game WAS difficult. It's certainly not as difficult now, but you're insane if you really believe what you're saying.


(You don't learn anything from exp parties, so trying to claim leveling made people skilled back them is a farse too.) You absolutely, positively do. Do you really believe that if Joe Schmoe uses a powerleveling service, or leeches in abyssea or summoner burns to get to 90 as fast as possible, that you're going to be able to depend on them in a fight? You're really crazy. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I just can't believe what i'm seeing here.

All fights require some kind of a thought process, however easy or hard they appear to be. You cannot simply walk up to every NM in the game, hit the attack button, and win. Certain levels of intelligence, hand-eye coordnation and timing, and logic are essential. Many people lack these things to varying degrees and screw up fights. You may come back and call them basic necessities, but they are skills that are learned by playing.

[Andylynn]

Like I said, you clearly haven't been around the game long enough. You've clearly not fought and won every BCNM, every CoP misison before their nerf, clearly didn't beat any of the major HNMs when they were new. The game WAS difficult. It's certainly not as difficult now, but you're insane if you really believe what you're saying.

It works both ways, there was nothing hard about any of that. FFXI was just a gigantic time sink 'back in the day.' There was no degree of difficulty and vets need to get their heads out of the clouds, that 2008 and prior was not as hard as they claim it to be.

[Fiarlia]

Implying that mmos take any remote degree of difficulty to begin with.. all one is doing is pressing corect buttons at correct times. It really does not take any kind of superior intellect or higher functioning capability in order to find a pUG, or solo an NM in order to get 'amazing gear.'

Where did I say it was difficult? No, this game isn't difficult, though strangely a very large amount of people do have a difficult time with it. And yes, it is possible for unskilled people to get gear through numbers or trying over and over again. I'm not arguing that at all, especially since I agree - not only that but you provided some evidence to support the idea (the Kannagi with Perle).

But just because the game is not that hard does not mean that people cannot be skilled at it. Obviously this must be the case as there are people who are not skilled, again, which you provided evidence for.

The "effort" that Alhanelem is talking about in this argument (being able to one-shot stuff - and requiring some sort of effort to be able to do so) boils down to skill. It just so happens that some of that skill might possibly be in gearing yourself well. An unskilled person will likely not be able to one-shot stuff, at the very least, not reliably or regularly because an unskilled person will likely not have the gear to do so.

In all honesty I think you're both a bit off, but Alhanelem is only off by a little. The reason I say you're off is because there are some unskilled players out there that exist that have friends who are well skilled and get the good gear as well and would be able to one-shot mobs. Though on the other hand it stands to reason that if they're hanging out with the skilled players constantly they've likely got at least some skill, though it might pale in comparison to their friends. After all, how many really good players will let REALLY bad players tag along with them all the time? But, in Abyssea, it's possible that through the use of PUGs and enough time, even the really stupid people could manage to get ahold of good gear (as evidenced by that Kannagi Perle NIN). Now, granted, I don't think for a second that a Kannagi Perle NIN can one-shot mobs, but it stands to reason that if they can get a Kannagi, they can likely PUG their way to enough gear to actually do it. It might be unlikely, since their lower skill would likely not lead them to choose to go after the best gear, but still feasible regardless of the likelihood.

Andylynn gets a smaller paragraph, since it's much easier to address why he's off. Despite how easy the game may be, there is still skill involved, even if you only choose to see it in the form of gear choice (for the argument of one-shotting). Gear is not the end-all-be-all for getting stuff done because those who have the good gear required to do so are usually skilled - seeing as how they know how to properly gear their jobs. And besides, if you honestly tell me that every person you've ever seen with good gear has been good at the game (again, I understand it's a fundamentally easy game, but I'm not here to play semantics, you should know what "good at the game" means - any argument focusing on this portion is ignoring the actual conversation at hand) then you're lying.

[Alhanelem]

It works both ways, there was nothing hard about any of that.Lol? really? OK, that's it, we're talking to a wall. You have NOT done any of those things. You could not just waltz into these things and win. You could not just "waste enough time" and suddenly be able to win something you couldn't before. Any individual fight is not a "time sink." The game as a whole is the time sink. Before the new level caps, it doesnt matter how much time you had sunk into the game. The best most awesome gear was not an instant win button for fights. It absolutely was as hard as they claim to be.

You just came in here and said "oh, it's an MMO, it wasn't hard, you just have to waste enough time." Sorry. it doesn't matter how much time you spent, you still needed skills and smarts.

I spent a long time doing salvage. i got nearly the entire set of the best gear for my job. Funny how the enemies didn't start just dropping dead before me... I must not have sunk enough time idling in Whitegate...

(edited) Fiarlia is basically spot on. As far as I'm concerned, equipping yourself properly, macroing the right gear to use at the right time and such is a part of being a good, skilled player. Nowhere did I say gear isn't important, but it is just a part of the grand scheme of things.

[Andylynn]

You absolutely, positively do. Do you really believe that if Joe Schmoe uses a powerleveling service, or leeches in abyssea or summoner burns to get to 90 as fast as possible, that you're going to be able to depend on them in a fight? You're really crazy. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I just can't believe what i'm seeing here.
And honestly, what do you learn auto attacking a monster over and over, pressing a macro occasionally. And what if they did this from 19-75 on Qufim, E Ronfaure, and Yuhtunga? Can you honestly tell me you can depend on them to know their job? Can you tell me theyre properly skilled? This happens a ton too, someone syncs in low lvel areas til they can Abys, and then how can you honestly say they learned anything? EXP parties teach you nothing, the game is not hard, and you are misguided.


It absolutely was as hard as they claim to be.
BS, it was always about who could invest the most time into their job.

[Alhanelem]

what do you learn auto attacking a monster over and overWho said auto attacking is what taught you anything? as usual, you're missing the point. You do learn things as you play. You cannot just create a level 90 character (assuming you could) and instantly start wiping the floor with everything. The first thing you learn is that auto attacking a monster over and over and hitting a macro occasionally aren't enough to win. You learn that sometimes you need more than that, and it matters what you choose and when. I think the main problem here is you assume every basic skill is just automatically known by every player the moment they press the play button for the first time. If no skill ever needed to be learned, then people would never, ever die while leveling up. But people do.

Hey you! black mage over there! Go up to that Wivre over there and press attack! OK now, you must be thirsty. Go get a drink! Don't worry, you'll have won by the time you get back!


EXP parties teach you nothing, the game is not hard, and you are misguided You are the one who is misguided. Your first EXP parties teach you many basic skills. You may learn about elemental weaknesses, damage types, how your stats affect what you do, how different effects interact like how that bio you cast will keep that add you cast it on from being slept, how certain mobs will kick your ass while you're fighting by aggroing if you don't pay attention... You don't REQUIRE a classic 6 man EXP party to learn these things, but it's where you will most likely learn them. No one is automatically aware of all of these things when they start playing. These are things that must be learned and aquired.
There are TONS and TONS of things you can only learn by either playing the game and finding out the hard way, or by reading guides and compilations of information. These are skills too. Not every skill is like catching in the outfield in baseball or intercepting passes in football.

[Fiarlia]

You absolutely, positively do. Do you really believe that if Joe Schmoe uses a powerleveling service, or leeches in abyssea or summoner burns to get to 90 as fast as possible, that you're going to be able to depend on them in a fight? You're really crazy. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I just can't believe what i'm seeing here.

I take issue with this. And I hate to say it but I agree with Andylynn on this aspect. Without trying to derail this further and getting into a discussion about why leeching is or is not okay, I'll just keep it personal. You and I have spoken enough, and you may have seen me post in other topics, but I feel it's reasonable for me to assume that you would not think of me as a bad player. I have leeched multiple jobs to 90 through Abyssea. I've researched those jobs, gotten the spells (if applicable), usually had gear to level into (top notch as well) and if not, didn't use the job until I did have it, skilled weapons, and so on and so forth. This should not be possible, as if we had never interacted at all, I would be included in the "Joe Schmoe" category; a random person you know nothing about.

The only time I can see this argument holding any water whatsoever is for a brand new player. Yet even then, I would only yield that it would be a good idea for them to experience leveling the old way, but I certainly wouldn't think it impossible that they could become good without doing so.

I generally like you as you provide well constructed arguments/thoughts/posts backed by logic and/or fact and don't seem to be an idiot in the slightest, but the blanket statement that you made above just stands out as not well thought out.

[Andylynn]

Gear is not the end-all-be-all for getting stuff done because those who have the good gear required to do so are usually skilled - seeing as how they know how to properly gear their jobs.
This is the most wrong thing here, having good gear does not mean you knew it was good.
#1 there are lots of examples of LS having handed gear to people just because the LS needed the role fufilled.
Refer back to the full pink kannagi nins.

#2 you could just be following a cookie cutter that someone told you was best. It doesn't mean you know what you are doing, it means you saw what worked for someone else, and just copied it.

#3 gear always makes the man, and it does not take a single ounce of skill to get that gear half the time.

[Fiarlia]

Read my entire post, I addressed those points.

Edit:

Well, maybe not clearly the last, so I'll elaborate. If it required zero skill, everyone would have it. Just because something can be achieved with little to no skill does not mean that zero skill is needed.

Second edit:

Also, you said "it does not take a single ounce of skill to get that gear half the time." Logically then, the other half of the time, at least some skill is required. Even if it's not by the person who actually gets the gear (ohaifriends).

[Alhanelem]

I have leeched multiple jobs to 90 through Abyssea. I've researched those jobs, gotten the spells (if applicable)You shouldn't be taking issue with this. I am only referencing the hypothetical person who ONLY did this. Did you level up your very first job by leeching? I really don't think you did. This was in no way intended as an attack on you. I myself have raised multiple subs through abyssea (though not any job fully to 90) but I had already been through all those experiences before. You couldn't have had gear to level into if you didn't already spend some time on at least one job to get it. It doesn't bother me that someone does this when they've already been through hell and back.

Finally, you did take the time to do the necessary research and learn the necessary skills. Not everyone who leeched did. Some people did it just to get a job to 90 and say they had it. What I'm trying to say is that doesn't automatically mean they know how to play their jobs. Nowhere did I say that you didn't, though.


having good gear does not mean you knew it was good.What? So you're saying people go for gear and say "I want this" without knowing what it does? Of course you know something you have is good or not. That said, this goes back to intelligence. There are good players and bad players, and it's not purely because of what gear they're wearing or what atmas they've earned so far. There is more to it than that. I don't care what you say. You're wrong if you think those two things are the ONLY things that matter.


gear always makes the man, and it does not take a single ounce of skill to get that gear half the time. And there you go. The other half of the time, it does take skills. And usually, that half of the time is the first one.

[Andylynn]

It's called a figure of speech... this is like talking to a wall, enjoy believing what you believe.

[Alhanelem]

this is like talking to a wall, enjoy believing what you believe. I couldn't agree more. Enjoy believing what you believe, as false as it is.

[Andylynn]

I couldn't agree more. I enjoy believing what I believe, as false as it is.

I'm glad you finally admit it.

[Fiarlia]

No, I didn't interpret it as an attack on me personally, the purpose of that initial paragraph was to illustrate I'd be in the "Joe Schmoe" category and not fit the bill you listed, though apparently I did misunderstand what you meant by Joe Schmoe.

I still believe that someone who only leveled through Abyssea is capable of being good though, though I do agree it'd be beneficial (though still not required) for them to experience leveling in other ways. In my point of view though, all it does is let them ease into the game, rather than become immersed with a truckload of info with little firsthand experience to the simpler mechanics. This is assuming an intelligent person, of course.

[Alhanelem]

I'm glad you finally admit it.
Oh, you're SO funny. Because what you are trying to tell people is just plain preposterous. Editing people's text to make it look as if they were saying something else is real mature, too. Just when you think the topic is over, you provoke further response.


No, I didn't interpret it as an attack on me personally, the purpose of that initial paragraph was to illustrate I'd be in the "Joe Schmoe" category and not fit the bill you listed, though apparently I did misunderstand what you meant by Joe Schmoe.

I still believe that someone who only leveled through Abyssea is capable of being good though, though I do agree it'd be beneficial (though still not required) for them to experience leveling in other ways. In my point of view though, all it does is let them ease into the game, rather than become immersed with a truckload of info with little firsthand experience to the simpler mechanics. This is assuming an intelligent person, of course. If it helps, just put abyssea out of the picture, and say someone just handed you an account, never having played before, with every job at level 90. You wander your way into a gorup fighting NMs. The probability that such a person is going to be of much help is fairly low UNLESS they did their homework, read up on stuff beforehand, and practiced around before doing anything big. That said, that person can still learn everything they need to learn. But they might be a problem for the first few people they meet.

I'm leaving this thread now, confident that the skills I picked up as I played will continue to serve me in the future, because if I didn't learn them, I'd still be training piles of mobs all over the place and wondering why they're attacking me.

[Fiarlia]

If it helps, just put abyssea out of the picture, and say someone just handed you an account, never having played before, with every job at level 90. You wander your way into a gorup fighting NMs. The probability that such a person is going to be of much help is fairly low UNLESS they did their homework, read up on stuff beforehand, and practiced around before doing anything big. That said, that person can still learn everything they need to learn. But they might be a problem for the first few people they meet.

This I can agree with. Only reason I mentioned anything about it before was because I both misunderstood your original post, and because it was a blanket statement. Long as you're willing to admit that some people can handle it fine, I'm completely willing to admit that some people can't and would be better served having done it themselves. I'm certainly the kind of person who would research if I'd been (basically) handed an account and never played before, but I realize I'm in the minority (just looking at most of the posts around this forum is enough proof of that lol).

[Alkalinehoe]

Oh, you're SO funny. Because what you are trying to tell people is just plain preposterous. Editing people's text to make it look as if they were saying something else is real mature, too. Just when you think the topic is over, you provoke further response.

If it helps, just put abyssea out of the picture, and say someone just handed you an account, never having played before, with every job at level 90. You wander your way into a gorup fighting NMs. The probability that such a person is going to be of much help is fairly low UNLESS they did their homework, read up on stuff beforehand, and practiced around before doing anything big. That said, that person can still learn everything they need to learn. But they might be a problem for the first few people they meet.

I'm leaving this thread now, confident that the skills I picked up as I played will continue to serve me in the future, because if I didn't learn them, I'd still be training piles of mobs all over the place and wondering why they're attacking me.
What I don't get is that why you think people can't learn this at 90 without exping the "hard way." Why can't a 90 go out for a few hours and learn the game mechanics on their own? Why must it always be in an exp party? Doesn't make sense to me, but then again, none of your posts do anyways.

[Alhanelem]

What I don't get is that why you think people can't learn this at 90 without exping the "hard way." Why can't a 90 go out for a few hours and learn the game mechanics on their own?Funny, because I already said they can do that in the very post you quoted. I even said previously that you don't absolutely have to use a classic 6 man covering all bases party to learn things, it's probably the most likely or most effective place. So it makes complete sense. There you go, one of my posts made sense to you without you even realizing it!

The whole point is that some time is required to learn various skills, no how you level up; while miss dragoon-with-sparkly-floor says no skills are required.

[Alkalinehoe]

Funny, because I already said they can do that in the very post you quoted. I even said previously that you don't absolutely have to use a classic 6 man covering all bases party to learn things, it's probably the most likely or most effective place. So it makes complete sense. There you go, one of my posts made sense to you without you even realizing it!

The whole point is that some time is required to learn various skills, no how you level up; while miss dragoon-with-sparkly-floor says no skills are required.
IDK man, you contradict yourself so many times it's hard to distinguish what your actual point of view is. BTW, thought you weren't coming in this thread anymore?

[Alhanelem]

IDK man, you contradict yourself so many times it's hard to distinguish what your actual point of view is. BTW, thought you weren't coming in this thread anymore?
What can I say, I'm easily provoked. It's my weakness, one that a certain person has been exploiting.
The important part is you're having fun right? otherwise you wouldn't bait me into posting.
But now I'm done. :p

[Alkalinehoe]

What can I say, I'm easily provoked. It's my weakness, one that a certain person has been exploiting.
The important part is you're having fun right? otherwise you wouldn't bait me into posting.
But now I'm done. :p
Somehow, I don't believe you.

*squinty eyes*

[katz]

I read a lot about lol pup this and lol pup that mainly because people are not intelligent enough to recognize the potentials in this job. You only see what the master does and lol at it. My automation can trigger all the colours you need. I can make it a pld or a mage or a ranger. Its the automaton that you should be concentrating on not your own weapon skills. you can get tp swop the tp to the automaton and then make it weapon skill the mob. Puppet is a complex job and way too many people under estimate its capabilities. Name one other job that can process all the colors

[Krystal]

It doesn't matter if you want to call the word tier or not give it a word at all. The fact remains that you have a lot more potential for dealing damage as a monk than you do as a puppetmaster.

That's not saying that all monks will beat all pups. Player skill is definitely a factor, which is why I used the key word, potential. Potential being the job's maximum output. You don't always get that output, it's up to the player and how well they do their job.

Both jobs being played at their max potential, however, pup falls far behind.

The reason I use "tier" is a comparison for max potentials. It has nothing to do w/ elitism, it has to do w/ math and where things actually stand.

I don't mind taking a pup along at all, but I'm not going to play along w/ some illusion that its on competitive terms w/ mnk, war, nin, etc.

puppet master can be on par with a monk in terms of damage output with the help of their automation. they also have better survivability than monk to boot thanks to that factor also. now if you want to get down to the idea of hand-to-hand skill caps. then yes monk does outdo puppet master in that field. but lets face it... weapon skill levels don't have too much of an impact along the lines of damage as the weapons and gear the puppet master or monk uses does. weapon skill levels DO play a factor but a small factor at best after you obtain a high enough level to hit mobs. Race also plays a small factor as all races have different stat caps not to mention merits altering those caps slightly. Player skill itself is also a BIG factor. a skilled puppet master is going to do ten times better than a poorly skilled Monk no matter the gear.

[Kazen]

puppet master can be on par with a monk in terms of damage output with the help of their automation. they also have better survivability than monk to boot thanks to that factor also. now if you want to get down to the idea of hand-to-hand skill caps. then yes monk does outdo puppet master in that field. but lets face it... weapon skill levels don't have too much of an impact along the lines of damage as the weapons and gear the puppet master or monk uses does. weapon skill levels DO play a factor but a small factor at best after you obtain a high enough level to hit mobs. Race also plays a small factor as all races have different stat caps not to mention merits altering those caps slightly. Player skill itself is also a BIG factor. a skilled puppet master is going to do ten times better than a poorly skilled Monk no matter the gear.

Someone else can have a field day with this, I'm going to bed. The underlined part shows that you have no clue about anything when it comes to monk and I doubt you know anything about H2H tiers.

[Greatguardian]

Hand-to-Hand skill is the only skill in the game where every single point does make a big difference. This is because Hand-to-Hand's base damage rating is a function of Skill (In particular, Base Damage = (Skill * .11) + 3). Monk's higher Skill does directly translate to having a higher damage weapon in each fist even if both jobs equip the same weapon.

Monk also severely outclasses Puppetmaster in terms of Damage Mitigation; even without PDT gear, a Monk will be negating around 65-70% of all attacks launched against them. Puppetmaster has greater recovery capabilities if they use a WHM Automaton, but they take significantly more damage as they are both unable to natively mitigate incoming damage, and are unable to equip the vast majority of -PDT gear (the only real options being Twilight Torque, Umbra Cape, and Goliard Trews). For what it's worth, MNK also has a sizable edge in Max HP. If both classes are Solo, a PUP may last longer fighting weak things because they don't have a 5 minute timer on their only healing ability. However, fighting anything strong, or with any sort of support in the picture, MNK is significantly more durable.

Damage output is also fairly poorly skewed against Puppetmaster at the moment as well. Automaton frames cannot properly take advantage of Razed Ruins (let alone Haste/buffs), and without new weaponskills do fall sharply behind their master inside Abyssea. Monk has natively better base damage, one of the best Offensive/Defensive abilities in the game (Counterstance), and a fairly brutal gear selection. Victory Smite, while accessible by both jobs, is also a significantly bigger improvement over Ascetic's Fury than it is over Stringing Pummel. There's no real question that Monk is a significantly stronger DD than Puppetmaster right now when both jobs are played by intelligent people.

That said, any good player is going to do better than any bad player any day of the week. I'm not sure where that's ever been called into question. The only thing that people seem to debate on this board is what defines a good player. 9 times out of 10, a good player is going to have better gear than a bad player anyways. Not because the gear makes them a good player, but because getting good gear is not difficult for a good player; they know what to pursue, and how to pursue it. Or, if they don't, they ask. It's really not that big a deal. The most popular threads in the entire FFXI section of BG are "What's better?" and the "Random Question Thread".

[Krystal]

Someone else can have a field day with this, I'm going to bed. The underlined part shows that you have no clue about anything when it comes to monk and I doubt you know anything about H2H tiers.

oh yes....CHAKRA SAVE THE DAY! or....or..better yet! MY LOLGUARD SKILL WILL! or how about my line up of self buffs that are practically USELESS! oh and lets not forget...since my hand-to-hand is higher than yours that automatically makes me do uber damage! who cares if my gear sucks! who cares if i get killed faster than heck because i have little or no way to heal myself...MY HAND-TO-HAND SKILL IS TEN TIMES BETTER THAN PUPPET MASTER!!!!

.............

seriously.....quit trying to trollbait this thread for one thing...and two,i know what i am talking about here. i have played FFXI long enough to know how weapon skill levels impact damage and hit accuracy. so go jump off a cliff.-_-;

[Krystal]

Hand-to-Hand skill is the only skill in the game where every single point does make a big difference. This is because Hand-to-Hand's base damage rating is a function of Skill (In particular, Base Damage = (Skill * .11) + 3). Monk's higher Skill does directly translate to having a higher damage weapon in each fist even if both jobs equip the same weapon.

Monk also severely outclasses Puppetmaster in terms of Damage Mitigation; even without PDT gear, a Monk will be negating around 65-70% of all attacks launched against them. Puppetmaster has greater recovery capabilities if they use a WHM Automaton, but they take significantly more damage as they are both unable to natively mitigate incoming damage, and are unable to equip the vast majority of -PDT gear (the only real options being Twilight Torque, Umbra Cape, and Goliard Trews). For what it's worth, MNK also has a sizable edge in Max HP. If both classes are Solo, a PUP may last longer fighting weak things because they don't have a 5 minute timer on their only healing ability. However, fighting anything strong, or with any sort of support in the picture, MNK is significantly more durable.

Damage output is also fairly poorly skewed against Puppetmaster at the moment as well. Automaton frames cannot properly take advantage of Razed Ruins (let alone Haste/buffs), and without new weaponskills do fall sharply behind their master inside Abyssea. Monk has natively better base damage, one of the best Offensive/Defensive abilities in the game (Counterstance), and a fairly brutal gear selection. Victory Smite, while accessible by both jobs, is also a significantly bigger improvement over Ascetic's Fury than it is over Stringing Pummel. There's no real question that Monk is a significantly stronger DD than Puppetmaster right now when both jobs are played by intelligent people.

That said, any good player is going to do better than any bad player any day of the week. I'm not sure where that's ever been called into question. The only thing that people seem to debate on this board is what defines a good player. 9 times out of 10, a good player is going to have better gear than a bad player anyways. Not because the gear makes them a good player, but because getting good gear is not difficult for a good player; they know what to pursue, and how to pursue it. Or, if they don't, they ask. It's really not that big a deal. The most popular threads in the entire FFXI section of BG are "What's better?" and the "Random Question Thread".

i've solo'd in abyssea many times with my puppet master against VT mobs and did a good job if i do say so myself. i did say weapon skill levels do play a small part. i don't know of any monk that can live against a VT mob in abyssea minus using temp items to save their tails.

[Gokku]

i've solo'd in abyssea many times with my puppet master against VT mobs and did a good job if i do say so myself. i did say weapon skill levels do play a small part. i don't know if any monk that can live against a VT mob in abyssea minus using temp items to save their tails.

LOL ok you must play with crap monks, look if i can solo pallid percy and berstuk on monk/blm while and NOT stunning mudslide because i have 3000 hp and echo drops. any 1/2 decent monk can solo any none casting mob/nin or /war minus a few mob types with WS's that will wreck your face if you have counterstance.

[Cream_Soda]

i've solo'd in abyssea many times with my puppet master against VT mobs and did a good job if i do say so myself. i did say weapon skill levels do play a small part. i don't know of any monk that can live against a VT mob in abyssea minus using temp items to save their tails.
Then you obviously don't know any good monks. I can solo a good number of NMs, yet alone VT mobs, lol. Even then, which job can deal more damage is based on solo how?


puppet master can be on par with a monk in terms of damage output with the help of their automation. they also have better survivability than monk to boot thanks to that factor also. now if you want to get down to the idea of hand-to-hand skill caps. then yes monk does outdo puppet master in that field. but lets face it... weapon skill levels don't have too much of an impact along the lines of damage as the weapons and gear the puppet master or monk uses does. weapon skill levels DO play a factor but a small factor at best after you obtain a high enough level to hit mobs. Race also plays a small factor as all races have different stat caps not to mention merits altering those caps slightly. Player skill itself is also a BIG factor. a skilled puppet master is going to do ten times better than a poorly skilled Monk no matter the gear.
and a skilled monk is going to do x20 better than a poor pup, what's your point? A mnk of top quality vs a pup of top quality is always going to favor the mnk, however.




I disagree with this little line. This game is about proper gear, and atma. A 'skilled' perle war with a bhuj and Raging Rush is not going to out DD a boob with AF3+2 and Ukon :|.
I said its a factor, but did not mention how much of a factor.

Now lets look at a noob who holds tp and doesn't ws until 300 tp every time, is the last person to engage every fight, etc.

Again gear shows your max potential, and skill is how much of that potential you can bring out. The larger the gaps in potential, the more skill difference that is required. The lesser the gap in gear, there is less skill difference required.

In the end, Skill + gear > either of the two alone.


I would agree with it if I trusted Cream_Soda as the one to know every job's "max" potential. But I don't.

Theorycraft all too often fails when you put it into practice. You can't math everything out and then go in the game and have it all perform exactly to your calculations. It is dangerous to rely on numbers without actually doing it. For instance, I remember you telling me that Stringing Pummel should beat Victory Smite on paper, but it doesn't.
That was when the mods for smite were not yet correct (ftp values and str mods were both incorrect). Using the incorrect numbers is going to give you incorrect results. The math was done based on those numbers, so gave diff results. (which is why testing is checked more than once by more than one person, before being set in stone and the initial testing is used for estimation purposes)


I disagree with this little line. This game is about proper gear, and atma. A 'skilled' perle war with a bhuj and Raging Rush is not going to out DD a boob with AF3+2 and Ukon :|.
So to touch on this again, I already talked about potential. Af3+2 and Ukon has a huge amount of potential, which means there'd have to be an godly amount of diff in the players to make that comparison happen, aka it probably won't.

Now look at someone w/ af3+1 and ukon vs someone w/ af3+2 and ukon. The af3+2 player has a higher potential, but the person w/ af3+1 can still easily win. This is a situation where both gear and skill take place.

[Krystal]

LOL ok you must play with crap monks, look if i can solo pallid percy and berstuk on monk/blm while and NOT stunning mudslide because i have 3000 hp and echo drops. any 1/2 decent monk can solo any none casting mob/nin or /war minus a few mob types with WS's that will wreck your face if you have counterstance.

considering 80% of mobs in abyssea use some sort of AOE attack that counterstance can not negate i have a hard time believing this. now if they fight aginst a mob who is basically sucky or one that more or less only physical attacks then sure..they can live easily.

[Cream_Soda]

considering 80% of mobs in abyssea use some sort of AOE attack that counterstance can not negate i have a hard time believing this. now if they fight aginst a mob who is basically sucky or one that more or less only physical attacks then sure..they can live easily.
Mounted champion is 20/tic regen and there's /dnc to help w/ curing or /nin to negat some of those attacks all together (w/ multiple shadows).

[Gokku]

pick a mob you can solo but think a monk cant im logged in now and will go solo it

[Greatguardian]

i've solo'd in abyssea many times with my puppet master against VT mobs and did a good job if i do say so myself. i did say weapon skill levels do play a small part. i don't know of any monk that can live against a VT mob in abyssea minus using temp items to save their tails.

Like Cream Soda said, my MNK can solo a pretty large slew of NMs, let alone EXP mobs (I can one-shot most of those =/ even at IT level). You're leaving out Mnk's best defensive buff when you're talking about mitigating damage, which is Counterstance. Forgetting guard, evasion, better PDT access, and a higher HP count, Mnk doesn't even get hit by 70%~ of all attacks directed against it (and all of those attacks translate to more damage dealt to the NM/Mob).

Not only that, but Mnk has significantly lower TP feed; to the point where most T1 NMs and definitely every EXP mob won't get a single TP move off before it dies. TP feed makes no real difference when you have even a single healer present, but since we're talking about solo survivability, it does play a role.

As for the skill thing, I'm not sure what I've said went through properly.

For every Combat Skill that is NOT Hand-to-Hand, Skill = Attack and Accuracy.

For Hand to Hand, Skill = Attack, Accuracy, and Weapon Damage.

This is why all Hand-to-Hand weapons have "D:+X" instead of "D:X" on them like regular weapons. The weapons only add damage to the base damage of each fist, which is determined by your Hand-to-Hand skill.

A 90 PUP with Verethragna and 362 H2H Skill (full merits, full AF3+2, Cirque Neck instead of Faith since I'm told that's better) has a D: 77 weapon in each fist.

A 90 MNK with Verethragna and 391 H2H Skill (full merits, full AF3+2, Faith neck) has a D: 81 weapon in each fist.

The Attack/Accuracy advantage is nice, but it's the Damage increase that gives Monk the advantage from H2H Skill.

[RaenRyong]

oh yes....CHAKRA SAVE THE DAY! or....or..better yet! MY LOLGUARD SKILL WILL! or how about my line up of self buffs that are practically USELESS! oh and lets not forget...since my hand-to-hand is higher than yours that automatically makes me do uber damage! who cares if my gear sucks! who cares if i get killed faster than heck because i have little or no way to heal myself...MY HAND-TO-HAND SKILL IS TEN TIMES BETTER THAN PUPPET MASTER!!!!

.............

seriously.....quit trying to trollbait this thread for one thing...and two,i know what i am talking about here. i have played FFXI long enough to know how weapon skill levels impact damage and hit accuracy. so go jump off a cliff.-_-;

You should try closing your mouth and reading/learning sometimes.

[Krystal]

Like Cream Soda said, my MNK can solo a pretty large slew of NMs, let alone EXP mobs (I can one-shot most of those =/ even at IT level). You're leaving out Mnk's best defensive buff when you're talking about mitigating damage, which is Counterstance. Forgetting guard, evasion, better PDT access, and a higher HP count, Mnk doesn't even get hit by 70%~ of all attacks directed against it (and all of those attacks translate to more damage dealt to the NM/Mob).


Not only that, but Mnk has significantly lower TP feed; to the point where most T1 NMs and definitely every EXP mob won't get a single TP move off before it dies. TP feed makes no real difference when you have even a single healer present, but since we're talking about solo survivability, it does play a role.

As for the skill thing, I'm not sure what I've said went through properly.

For every Combat Skill that is NOT Hand-to-Hand, Skill = Attack and Accuracy.

For Hand to Hand, Skill = Attack, Accuracy, and Weapon Damage.

This is why all Hand-to-Hand weapons have "D:+X" instead of "D:X" on them like regular weapons. The weapons only add damage to the base damage of each fist, which is determined by your Hand-to-Hand skill.

A 90 PUP with Verethragna and 362 H2H Skill (full merits, full AF3+2, Cirque Neck instead of Faith since I'm told that's better) has a D: 77 weapon in each fist.

A 90 MNK with Verethragna and 391 H2H Skill (full merits, full AF3+2, Faith neck) has a D: 81 weapon in each fist.

The Attack/Accuracy advantage is nice, but it's the Damage increase that gives Monk the advantage from H2H Skill.

that's a mere 10 point dmg diff. does not make that big a diff. now their counterstance ability is formidable i'll give it that but it won't save them when a mob is dealing roughly 400 a hit when they do hit which by those estimates is about every other hit. also pup has the ability to shift hate between itself and it's automation and can do this roughly every 2mins with merits if i am correct they also have the ability to switch HP which can be used ever other min if i am correct which can save the master or the auto using these abilities at the right time is key for a pup to survive.. so if a pup were to shift hate back and forth as well as HP as long as the auto is kept healed with oils which can be merited down to roughly 2mins i think...(i need to double check these numbers but i'm almost sure i am right on this.) a puppet master has equal if not better survivability than monk does. even more so if the puppet master subs monk at 90.(counterstance gained at 45)

[Gokku]

that's a mere 10 point dmg diff. does not make that big a diff. now their counterstance ability is formidable i'll give it that but it won't save them when a mob is dealing roughly 400 a hit when they do hit which by those estimates is about every other hit. also pup has the ability to shift hate between itself and it's automation and can do this roughly every 2mins with merits if i am correct they also have the ability to switch HP which can be used ever other min if i am correct which can save the master or the auto using these abilities at the right time is key for a pup to survive.. so if a pup were to shift hate back and forth as well as HP as long as the auto is kept healed with oils which can be merited down to roughly 2mins i think...(i need to double check these numbers but i'm almost sure i am right on this.) a puppet master has equal if not better survivability than monk does. even more so if the puppet master subs monk at 90.(counterstance gained at 45)
yap yap yap pick a mob so i can shut you up

[Greatguardian]

I don't think I've ever been hit for 400 damage in a single attack at level 90. 100-150? 200-250 for a crit? Maybe higher if we start bringing up stronger NMs but not by that much.

When an NM is dead in 60 seconds it really doesn't matter how much damage it might do on the off chance it actually manages to hit me. Even if it does, and even if Temp Items are completely removed from the equation (Uh, Hi, you're using Oils so those should be plenty fair game <_<), my skimpy Chakra set easily heals over 650HP + Invigorate for another 240 HP.

Estimating that Mnk takes 1 in 3 hits is also off, since Mnk has Perfect Counter to add to the mix. Perfect Counter will stay active for its entire duration until the Monk's native Counter trait misses an attack. Then, and only then, will Perfect Counter use itself and counter the attack. It artificially boosts our Counter rate, and causes our Counters to deal bonus damage to enemies (Forced critical + AF3+2 head enhancement).

[Krystal]

yap yap yap pick a mob so i can shut you up

Dynamis Xcabard zone boss. i myself did not solo this but i saw a galka puppetmaster solo it using /nin for shadows and +2 emp gear on a run just last friday. don't believe me? than fine don't. i know what i saw. but i'd love to see a monk solo that....oh and please make sure to vid it so i can watch you get pwn'd.

[RaenRyong]

#1 how is Dynamis-Xarcabard inside Abyssea
#2 why would someone solo a boss after you've just got them that far?
#3 I don't believe this solo but am open to be proven otherwise... you would no way kill it before Yin/Yang got spawned and stuff. I don't see how your puppet could possibly keep up with that.

[Gokku]

Dynamis Xcabard zone boss. i myself did not solo this but i saw a galka puppetmaster solo it using /nin for shadows and +2 emp gear on a run just last friday. don't believe me? than fine don't. i know what i saw. but i'd love to see a monk solo that....oh and please make sure to vid it so i can watch you get pwn'd.

right so a single pup pulled all TE's all dragons killed yin/yang then went and solo'd Dynamis lord. and i solo'd AV with monk/thf and got full drops. now pick a mob or shut up you know your wrong.

lemme clear up how i know your full of it. lets say a pup did solo all the way to DL killed yin/yang and started attacking DL , no taking in all pup's JA's lets say the pups automaton can hold Dl for 60 secs each summon, and the pup could get out of range and never be hit with sleepga or a TP move. how is the pup going to tank / take hate and put it on his automaton once DL summons yin/yang again ?

[Krystal]

I don't think I've ever been hit for 400 damage in a single attack at level 90. 100-150? 200-250 for a crit? Maybe higher if we start bringing up stronger NMs but not by that much.

When an NM is dead in 60 seconds it really doesn't matter how much damage it might do on the off chance it actually manages to hit me. Even if it does, and even if Temp Items are completely removed from the equation (Uh, Hi, you're using Oils so those should be plenty fair game <_<), my skimpy Chakra set easily heals over 650HP + Invigorate for another 240 HP.

Estimating that Mnk takes 1 in 3 hits is also off, since Mnk has Perfect Counter to add to the mix. Perfect Counter will stay active for its entire duration until the Monk's native Counter trait misses an attack. Then, and only then, will Perfect Counter use itself and counter the attack. It artificially boosts our Counter rate, and causes our Counters to deal bonus damage to enemies (Forced critical + AF3+2 head enhancement).

i've gotta see your monk in action because if your monk is as good as you say it is..monks on alexander SUCK BIG TIME. what server you on? i may create a character on there temp to see how you run you're monk.

[RaenRyong]

i've gotta see your monk in action because if your monk is as good as you say it is..monks on alexander SUCK BIG TIME. what server you on? i may create a character on there temp to see how you run you're monk.

Arki Azbarimon Banderbear Cheech Evilmagus Fionne Francisco Gavriel Ikutaki

list of Verethragna owners on Alexander. I'm not saying you need Vereth to be good at MNK but there seem to be no shortage of good ones around. Are you just basing on what you see in lolpickupexp parties?

[Krystal]

right so a single pup pulled all TE's all dragons killed yin/yang then went and solo'd Dynamis lord. and i solo'd AV with monk/thf and got full drops. now pick a mob or shut up you know your wrong.

i did not say he solo'd the TE dragons i said he solo'd the Dynamis lord. everyone else was handling those as well as yin and yang once dead he solo'd the lord. we also handled the weaker versions he summoned afterward.

[Gokku]

i did not say he solo'd the TE dragons i said he solo'd the Dynamis lord. everyone else was handling those. and the weaker versions he summoned afterward.

so he didnt solo DL at all he had help you've proven my point now pick a mob you seem scared to do so and one that YOU can solo and think a monk cant

[Greatguardian]

i did not say he solo'd the TE dragons i said he solo'd the Dynamis lord. everyone else was handling those as well as yin and yang once dead he solo'd the lord. we also handled the weaker versions he summoned afterward.

Is it really fair to say he's soloing Dynamis Lord if people are taking the Dragons...? Last I recalled, the Dragons share hate with DL anyways so it's impossible to move them away. Also, I'm on Cerberus. I always post under my character name, and my FFXIAH profile's open.

Edit: From Wiki,

Ying & Yang share the enmity with the Dynamis Lord, making them extremely difficult to take away for long enough to finish the fight without major casualties.

[Krystal]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dynamis_Lord this is what dyna lord can do...ALONE. soloing him is NOT easy. or would like to prove me wrong? would love to see it..even have your dyna group take care fo the yin and yang as well as the TE dragons. and you take him on your own like the pup did.

[RaenRyong]

How did he solo him? Basic fight details?

[Krystal]

Is it really fair to say he's soloing Dynamis Lord if people are taking the Dragons...? Last I recalled, the Dragons share hate with DL anyways so it's impossible to move them away. Also, I'm on Cerberus. I always post under my character name, and my FFXIAH profile's open.

Not impossible...HARD yes...but not impossible. we basically focused on killing yin and yang then the weaker versions while he pummeled the hell out of the boss. not saying the DL didn't go after a few members i said solo'd..not kept hate..lol

[Greatguardian]

That's definitely not a solo then, lol.

[Gokku]

Not impossible...HARD yes...but not impossible. we basically focused on killing yin and yang then the weaker versions while he pummeled the hell out of the boss. not saying the DL didn't go after a few members i said solo'd..not kept hate..lol

A. youve yet to pick a mob
B. what your posting isnt a solo then if i had my ls tanking for me while i went ape shit on any mob of course i could "solo" it

[Krystal]

How did he solo him? Basic fight details?

Shifting hate between himself and his auto, auto oils, using desu ex automa OFTEN, using shadows to absorb most damage, and HP switching when his HP got low if he had no time to switch up frames. as far as i could tell he had to have no time to switch up attachments as he was switching between is auto's tank frame and whm frame often to self heal then hit again. could not see much more as i had filters on and was focusing on helping the party kill the dragons.

[Krystal]

That's definitely not a solo then, lol.

a solo in my book! since he was the target most of the time!

[Gokku]

ok then ive solo'd DL since when ever we zerg it im the target the WHOLE time sooo pick a mob~

[RaenRyong]

by that logic mnk can solo anything

[Krystal]

A. youve yet to pick a mob
B. what your posting isnt a solo then if i had my ls tanking for me while i went ape shit on any mob of course i could "solo" it

he was the target of the DL 90% of the battle.

[Gokku]

still yet to back up your claim , something tells me you cant solo shit on pup

[Krystal]

still yet to back up your claim , something tells me you cant solo shit on pup

three things: one: How old are you again? two: I've been awake all night and i am going to bed after this post. and three: This is totally off topic.

i'm going to assume you reply is:"ha so i thought. you can't solo on pup for shit and monk is better!"

keep thinking that...it just might come true one day....:D

[Gokku]

three things: one: How old are you again? two: I've been awake all night and i am going to bed after this post. and three: This is totally off topic.

i'm going to assume you reply is:"ha so i thought. you can't solo on pup for shit and monk is better!"

keep thinking that...it just might come true one day....:D

since you wanna pull RL card , im 22. second youve posted plenty of times yet nothing you said had any valid proof or was true. third you claimed you could solo not me , you then failed to prove anything and when i requested you pick a mob you ignored it and try'd to use some fake "solo". so i ask you "How old are you again?" and ive been up all night also doesnt mean a thing if your full of it your full of it.

[Cream_Soda]

Solo debate aside, solo still doesn't determine which job deals more damage.

[Fiarlia]

10/10 would read again.

[RaenRyong]

Solo debate aside, solo still doesn't determine which job deals more damage.

Even when solo, the Puppetmaster itself doesn't deal 100% of the damage!







yes, i'm joking

[Alhanelem]

Solo debate aside, solo still doesn't determine which job deals more damage.
Want to fight and argue with me back over at FFXIclopedia, where there's no Krystal anymore? :p

Really, Kyrstal, please just stop- Can't you see its you vs everyone else?

[Sama]

Are you kidding me?

Mnk can cover every single blunt trigger but Hexa-strike.

Mnk + Whm on blunt time can trigger blue 100% of the time.

I think he meant red trigger which MNK has nothing to do with.

[Cream_Soda]

I think he meant red trigger which MNK has nothing to do with.
Mnk/war gets
Earth crusher, seraph strike, seraph blade, red lotus blade, raiden thrust, sunburst which is over half of all red triggers.

Edit: forgot sunburst

[Alhanelem]

Mnk/war gets
Earth crusher, seraph strike, seraph blade, red lotus blade, raiden thrust, sunburst which is over half of all red triggers.

Edit: forgot sunburst
At first I was wondering what kind of drugs you're on, but then I realized you can get high enough skill with subjob to use Raiden Thrust and you can use the event pitchfork to do it. :p But of course, that means any job can do it.

[Afrohatch]

Did someone really just say they watched a PUP solo Dynamis Lord

[RAIST]

yeah.. but it wasn't really solo...others were taking on the mobs with shared hate, and didn't keep hate on DL the full time, so can't say they soloed it--maybe they did the bulk of the tanking on that one particular mob, but it wasn't truly solo.

And technically, a pet job isn't really soloing unless their pet is the only one doing all the fighting and taking all the damage...but, that's just arguing semantics I guess....

[Alhanelem]

Don't get me wrong, I think that PUP is way better than most people give it credit for, but that's still a ridiculous story. There's no way someone could solo dynamis lord without some kind of support.

[SNK]

A PUP solo'd Dynamis Lord?


lol Ok...