Merits > Job Points!

[Kimble]

Would it be wise for developers to allow us to spend Merits for Job Points?

I would even accept something ridiculous like 40 Merits in exchange for one Job Point.

Why? Because I noticed some people, even for Capacity Points parties, are STILL picky with what jobs come. A buddy of mine loves his Rune Fencer, but he has to resort to going to fight high-Level mobs (although they check Easy Prey in areas like Kuftal or Bohyada Tree).

As COR using Exp Roll and using all DD Trusts for faster kills, Chains were still under 140 Capacity Points when I tried it.

On a side note, if NIN can DD effectively now, why are they still not used in Seeker content when a DD is needed?

[Crevox]

On a side note, if NIN can DD effectively now, why are they still not used in Seeker content when a DD is needed?

Because very few people play NIN. A NIN never asks me to join the party.

If you want to farm capacity points, the best place to do so is in the Gates areas of Adoulin, or Incursion.

[Singforu]

Would it be wise for developers to allow us to spend Merits for Job Points?

I would even accept something ridiculous like 40 Merits in exchange for one Job Point.

Why? Because I noticed some people, even for Capacity Points parties, are STILL picky with what jobs come. A buddy of mine loves his Rune Fencer, but he has to resort to going to fight high-Level mobs (although they check Easy Prey in areas like Kuftal or Bohyada Tree).

As COR using Exp Roll and using all DD Trusts for faster kills, Chains were still under 140 Capacity Points when I tried it.

On a side note, if NIN can DD effectively now, why are they still not used in Seeker content when a DD is needed?

No it would not be wise. Job Points are another type of leveling. Think of leveling your job 1-99. Would it have been acceptable to have been able to level your NIN from 1-99 by getting experience points on COR?

[Tennotsukai]

The faster we can jp the better. I'm fully for merits to jp exchange.

[Alhanelem]

yeah faster is better! how about a button on the main menu that just gives you job points whenever you press it!

(Want faster job point grinding yes, but meripo is a seperate system and it should stay that way. Just boost the CAP gain rate, make chains better, or cut down the amount of CAP needed for a point)

[Tennotsukai]

I've ran out of reasons to use merit points. I have everything I need from these new fights. If they implemented this, then I would once again have a reason to merit. I'm not saying 1 merit = 1 jp. At the best, 30 merits = 1 jp. It's just something I can expend my merits on.

[dasva]

No it would not be wise. Job Points are another type of leveling. Think of leveling your job 1-99. Would it have been acceptable to have been able to level your NIN from 1-99 by getting experience points on COR?

Yeah but I can get 1-99 from any number of ways not just killing high level monsters. Not to mention the amount of good cp pt camps is extremely limited which would be a problem if so many people weren't turned off by cp farming in the first place. Maybe if they made all the things that give xp also give CP that would be different...

[Singforu]

Yeah but I can get 1-99 from any number of ways not just killing high level monsters. Not to mention the amount of good cp pt camps is extremely limited which would be a problem if so many people weren't turned off by cp farming in the first place. Maybe if they made all the things that give xp also give CP that would be different...

CP farm areas taken? Go to incursion; it's even customizable to how difficult you want it to be.

Even lower level mobs like level 95 give CP. Sure it's not a lot, but you wouldn't expect lower level mobs to give you a lot of exp either. It's supposed to be more difficult to get CP because basically what SE is doing is instituting a level "soft cap". When you have a soft cap, it takes a ridiculous amount to go up even the smallest amount of improvement (at least in other games that I have played that had a soft cap). If SE didn't do it this way then there would be no more progression except through ilevel gear. Should you be able to increase CP gain rate by stuff like CP rings? sure, we have exp rings too, makes sense. There should probably also be CP pages (like Miratete's Memoirs). Should we be able to convert merits to CP? no way.

[Tennotsukai]

CP farm areas taken? Go to incursion; it's even customizable to how difficult you want it to be.

Even lower level mobs like level 95 give CP. Sure it's not a lot, but you wouldn't expect lower level mobs to give you a lot of exp either. It's supposed to be more difficult to get CP because basically what SE is doing is instituting a level "soft cap". When you have a soft cap, it takes a ridiculous amount to go up even the smallest amount of improvement (at least in other games that I have played that had a soft cap). If SE didn't do it this way then there would be no more progression except through ilevel gear. Should you be able to increase CP gain rate by stuff like CP rings? sure, we have exp rings too, makes sense. There should probably also be CP pages (like Miratete's Memoirs). Should we be able to convert merits to CP? no way.

Maybe exchange merits for CP pages then?

[detlef]

Maybe exchange merits for CP pages then?Be able to buy Vocation Rings with Merit Points?

[Alhanelem]

I've ran out of reasons to use merit points. I have everything I need from these new fights. If they implemented this, then I would once again have a reason to merit.You get CP from the exact same things as merits though. Therefore, since you want CP, you still have reason to go out and get it. By being able to convert merits just because you're allegedly done with the high tier battles (which of course we know there will be more) you're able to get far more CP than people who aren't "done" with them, which doesn't seem fair to me. You essentially get to double dip.

[dasva]

CP farm areas taken? Go to incursion; it's even customizable to how difficult you want it to be.

Even lower level mobs like level 95 give CP. Sure it's not a lot, but you wouldn't expect lower level mobs to give you a lot of exp either. It's supposed to be more difficult to get CP because basically what SE is doing is instituting a level "soft cap". When you have a soft cap, it takes a ridiculous amount to go up even the smallest amount of improvement (at least in other games that I have played that had a soft cap). If SE didn't do it this way then there would be no more progression except through ilevel gear. Should you be able to increase CP gain rate by stuff like CP rings? sure, we have exp rings too, makes sense. There should probably also be CP pages (like Miratete's Memoirs). Should we be able to convert merits to CP? no way.

idk I can make pretty decent xp off of lowish level stuff... and then there is RoE, GoV/FoV and assignments for tons. I get it's supposed to be harder but at this level it's fake difficulty. I mean it already takes 9.9 cp to cap just one job. Job specific merits take 740k xp. And cp gain rate is much lower on the good mobs. That alone makes it harder. You said this is like leveling well then let's make this actually like leveling

Edit: Also another problem is the whole penalty for ilvl difference needs to go away

[Kimble]

No it would not be wise. Job Points are another type of leveling. Think of leveling your job 1-99. Would it have been acceptable to have been able to level your NIN from 1-99 by getting experience points on COR?

The problem is that if a PUP is being discriminated again, he won't see an increase on making his job that much better/funner for him. Using my homie's Rune Fencer, for example, would mean no access to Job Point traits.

[Singforu]

Maybe exchange merits for CP pages then?

Can't exchange merits for exp pages, so no.

[Singforu]

Be able to buy Vocation Rings with Merit Points?

can't buy exp rings with merits, so no.

[Singforu]

Edit: Also another problem is the whole penalty for ilvl difference needs to go away

yes, that is quite annoying. Since it's a level based off gear instead of actual level. oh, oh.... mob is about to die... switch gear mages, just for the death. darnit! was too slow. DDs, stop killing so fast!

[FrankReynolds]

By being able to convert merits just because you're allegedly done with the high tier battles (which of course we know there will be more) you're able to get far more CP than people who aren't "done" with them, which doesn't seem fair to me. You essentially get to double dip.

People who aren't done meriting feel the same way about players who are done with merits being able to spam high level fights. People who aren't finished leveling feel the same way about people who are 99 being able to get merits instead of exp.

What's the difference?

[Selindrile]

can't buy exp rings with merits, so no.
Can't exchange merits for exp pages, so no.

WAT

While I don't really care about buying JP with merits, I have plenty of HTB to use merits on as it is, would rather just see JP come quick, this reasoning is.... just ridiculous.

Effectively what you're saying is: "Because you can't exchange one form of exp for another form of exp you shouldn't be able to exchange it for a form of capacity."

And if you want to get technical, you can buy a KI with merits which upon defeating you get a number of CP, so, in a roundabout way, you can already can exchange it for a form of capacity.

Personally, I think making capacity come in larger amounts and more places is the way to go, but /shrug, to each their own.

[Alhanelem]

People who aren't done meriting feel the same way about players who are done with merits being able to spam high level fights. People who aren't finished leveling feel the same way about people who are 99 being able to get merits instead of exp.

What's the difference?
Since I get more merits than I know what to do without trying (there's some things I haven't capped yet but its so low priority that it bothered me not at all to do high tier battles), it doesn't really take long to get the core stuff out of the way and I don't feel its the same situation. The point is, they're seperate systems. Nobody cried about not getting EXP at lv75 before merits came out. Why does everything always have to have a use? You still need to go out and farm capacity points, so its not true that you don't have any reason to go out and farm anymore. Just pretend the EXP isn't there or something.

I totally agree with basically everyone around here that capacity points are too slow. However, that is something that should be adjusted directly rather than through some roundabout method.

[Singforu]

WAT

While I don't really care about buying JP with merits, I have plenty of HTB to use merits on as it is, would rather just see JP come quick, this reasoning is.... just ridiculous.

you seem to be mixing ideas in the same sentence. but to not assume, i will ask: what does you having HTB to use merits on, or you preferring to see JP come quick, have to do with my argument: since JP is another form of leveling, and that merits can't be converted to exp rings/pages that they shouldn't be able to be converted to the equivalent JP?


Effectively what you're saying is: "Because you can't exchange one form of exp for another form of exp you shouldn't be able to exchange it for a form of capacity."

exactly. because capacity is a form of exp.


And if you want to get technical, you can buy a KI with merits which upon defeating you get a number of CP, so, in a roundabout way, you can already can exchange it for a form of capacity.

you still had to kill something, so no, you didn't exchange merits for capacity.


Personally, I think making capacity come in larger amounts and more places is the way to go, but /shrug, to each their own.

to what limit? as someone else suggested, do you want a button on the main menu that when you press it gives you JP? I believe we should have the same access to JP as we do EXP. Anything beyond that is unacceptable. So yes, I advocate more places of getting CP than what is currently present (i.e.: CP pages you get from doing a quest), but within the restriction i just mentioned.

[Singforu]

People who aren't done meriting feel the same way about players who are done with merits being able to spam high level fights. People who aren't finished leveling feel the same way about people who are 99 being able to get merits instead of exp.

What's the difference?

People who aren't done meriting shouldn't be feeling that way about those who get to kill high level fights, because it isn't double dipping; you're choosing to use merits on fights which isn't character progression. The same thing for those not finished leveling to those getting merits... it's not double dipping, you're only getting character progression once (those less than 99 can do the same thing by changing the mode from exp to merits).

[FrankReynolds]

People who aren't done meriting shouldn't be feeling that way about those who get to kill high level fights, because it isn't double dipping; you're choosing to use merits on fights which isn't character progression. The same thing for those not finished leveling to those getting merits... it's not double dipping, you're only getting character progression once (those less than 99 can do the same thing by changing the mode from exp to merits).

Those fights drop 119 gear. Are you saying that going from 99-119 isn't progression? Because that's not how the developers describe it.

[Selindrile]

you seem to be mixing ideas in the same sentence. but to not assume, i will ask: what does you having HTB to use merits on, or you preferring to see JP come quick, have to do with my argument: since JP is another form of leveling, and that merits can't be converted to exp rings/pages that they shouldn't be able to be converted to the equivalent JP?

It's a mix of related ideas, certainly, to explain while I don't really have a strong opinion on the OP's statement. I was saying I would be unlikely to spend merits on Job Points as I spend them on HTBs. This statement was saying that even though I don't strongly support the OPs suggestion, I still think your argument was ridiculous.




exactly. because capacity is a form of exp.

In a manner, but you missed the entire point, you can't exchange exp for exp rings or for exp scrolls because it would be moot. Exchanging it into CP or JP would not. There are plenty of ways to change most forms of currency into gil, and even ways for you to exchange one type of currency into different denominations used for different things of it's own type which have different uses, and of course vouchers that change into most types of currency.




you still had to kill something, so no, you didn't exchange merits for capacity.

See the same argument when you say you can't exchange it for JP rings, or heck, could even say "You still had to use a Capacity Scroll, so no, you didn't exchange merit points for capacity.


to what limit? as someone else suggested, do you want a button on the main menu that when you press it gives you JP? I believe we should have the same access to JP as we do EXP. Anything beyond that is unacceptable. So yes, I advocate more places of getting CP than what is currently present (i.e.: CP pages you get from doing a quest), but within the restriction i just mentioned.

To a logical limit that makes the majority of the player base happy enough to keep playing, but busy enough not to run out of things to do, which is the only logical thing to strive for in MMO design. I believe we currently gain JP too slowly, I can't state a concrete number, but I do believe doubling the amount of CP we obtain would do such, even over the long haul, could it be raised past that? Probably, but I wouldn't hazard an exact guess where the cut off point is for too much or too little exactly, but I feel we're a far cry away from that at the moment.

[Singforu]

Those fights drop 119 gear. Are you saying that going from 99-119 isn't progression? Because that's not how the developers describe it.


it's artificial progression. goes away as soon as you switch gear or a mob/environment gives you encumberance.

[Singforu]

It's a mix of related ideas, certainly, to explain while I don't really have a strong opinion on the OP's statement. I was saying I would be unlikely to spend merits on Job Points as I spend them on HTBs. This statement was saying that even though I don't strongly support the OPs suggestion, I still think your argument was ridiculous.

My argument goes like this: the argument given for exchanging merits to JP is "I want". I contend that that is not a valid argument (which is why I put forth the quip about a Job Point button). I put forth that there is no precedence for the exchange (which is acceptable until a valid argument is given to change so). You on the other hand didn't put any valid arguments. So what is ridiculous is your reply.


In a manner, but you missed the entire point, you can't exchange exp for exp rings or for exp scrolls because it would be moot.

No it wouldn't. Don't know why you are thinking this unless you are situation biased with all jobs capped.



There are plenty of ways to change most forms of currency into gil, and even ways for you to exchange one type of currency into different denominations used for different things of it's own type which have different uses, and of course vouchers that change into most types of currency.

comparing apples and oranges. exp is not currency. and you used as an example changing currency into gil, gil is currency.




See the same argument when you say you can't exchange it for JP rings, or heck, could even say "You still had to use a Capacity Scroll, so no, you didn't exchange merit points for capacity.

correct, it's not exchanging merit points for capacity, it's exchanging it for CP scrolls/rings. Still doesn't mean one should be allowed to exchange merits for them. There is no precedence of exchanging merits for exp scrolls/rings, and as such there should be no exchanging of merits for CP scrolls/rings.

[FrankReynolds]

it's artificial progression. goes away as soon as you switch gear or a mob/environment gives you encumberance.

And your weapon merits go away as soon as the monster casts blind. What's your point?

[Singforu]

And your weapon merits go away as soon as the monster casts blind. What's your point?

you didn't seriously just say that. i will reply just in case to humor you. your weapon merits do not go away as soon as a monster casts blind. you still have the skill. for instance, for those weapon skills that require you to have a certain skill level, even if a monster casts blind you will still be able to use those weapon skills even if you were right at the skill level required because your skill in that weapon does not go down. if you meant the accuracy down effect from blind.... you still have the attack from the skill. i suppose next you'll add a mob casts bio to reduce your attack as well. neither of these are acceptable as an argument, that is looking at the secondary effects of the skill and not the skill itself. If you didn't have those merits, the effects of blind on your accuracy would have been even more so. One cannot say blind is negating those merits, it is negating your overall accuracy.

the point was that you brought up gear as progression as an argument against what I said, so I countered your argument with it isn't actual progression; it's temporary based on putting on gear of which is quite often swapped out for non ilevel by mages and removed completely by mobs/environment situations. This is the equivalent of de-leveling and re-leveling a dozen levels instantly, which is a preposterous notion. Hence, calling it artificial progress and should not be counted as a valid argument against the double dipping argument.

[FrankReynolds]

you didn't seriously just say that. i will reply just in case to humor you. your weapon merits do not go away as soon as a monster casts blind. you still have the skill. for instance, for those weapon skills that require you to have a certain skill level, even if a monster casts blind you will still be able to use those weapon skills even if you were right at the skill level required because your skill in that weapon does not go down. if you meant the accuracy down effect from blind.... you still have the attack from the skill. i suppose next you'll add a mob casts bio to reduce your attack as well. neither of these are acceptable as an argument, that is looking at the secondary effects of the skill and not the skill itself. If you didn't have those merits, the effects of blind on your accuracy would have been even more so. One cannot say blind is negating those merits, it is negating your overall accuracy.

the point was that you brought up gear as progression as an argument against what I said, so I countered your argument with it isn't actual progression; it's temporary based on putting on gear of which is quite often swapped out for non ilevel by mages and removed completely by mobs/environment situations. This is the equivalent of de-leveling and re-leveling a dozen levels instantly, which is a preposterous notion. Hence, calling it artificial progress and should not be counted as a valid argument against the double dipping argument.

It's all the same. Losing stats because a monster casts a spell. The mechanism doesn't matter. the outcome is reduced skill, ability etc.