1 million subscribers

[Pixela]

Square made an announcement a few days ago that FFXI, FFXIV and Dragonquest 3 combined have 1 million subscribers.

How many do you think each title has? My guess is 300k for D3, FFXI 100-200k and FFXIV about 550k

http://www.pcgamer.com/square-enixs-mmos-arent-doing-great-but-theyre-not-dying/

[PlumbGame]

Square made an announcement a few days ago that FFXI, FFXIV and Dragonquest 3 combined have 1 million subscribers.

How many do you think each title has? My guess is 300k for D3, FFXI 100-200k and FFXIV about 550k

http://www.pcgamer.com/square-enixs-mmos-arent-doing-great-but-theyre-not-dying/

Hmm IDK, FFXIV's main page a few months back advertised having more than 2.4 million subs. So I'd like to think FFXIV was a little higher.

[Pixela]

Hmm IDK, FFXIV's main page a few months back advertised having more than 2.4 million subs. So I'd like to think FFXIV was a little higher.

That was registered players not subscribers, but yeah might be a little higher than 550k.

[Dazusu]

FFXI 100-200k

Very generous of you. Try <80K.

[Pixela]

Very generous of you. Try <80K.

I would say at least 100k is the minimum honestly, that's about 6.2k subscribers per server which given the 24/7 nature of the game sounds about right to me.

[Zenoxio]

No, Square made no such recent announcement. Read the article.


Correction: Square Enix's annual report was released on March 31, 2014, when the company's fiscal year ended. We apologize for the error.

Nearly a year old.

[Pixela]

No, Square made no such recent announcement. Read the article.



Nearly a year old.

I think you need to read it again, Square did make this announcement and they used these figures themselves. They decided to use the figures from last March for whatever reason but it's obvious they aren't much different now or they would of used the more upto date ones which they have access to.

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2015/01/01/square-enix-annual-report-talks-ffxiv-hitman-go-tomb-raider-and-the-future
http://news.yahoo.com/square-enix-annual-report-mentions-future-titles-2015-230935823.html
http://www.business2community.com/tech-gadgets/square-enix-annual-report-mentions-future-titles-2015-details-01111664

[Alhanelem]

Square made an announcement a few days ago that FFXI, FFXIV and Dragonquest 3 combined have 1 million subscribers.

How many do you think each title has? My guess is 300k for D3, FFXI 100-200k and FFXIV about 550k

http://www.pcgamer.com/square-enixs-mmos-arent-doing-great-but-theyre-not-dying/
never heard of this announcement but Dragon Quest 3 is not an MMO. You're thinking of Dragon Quest X (on Wii, Wii U, and PC). So something's not quite right here.

FFXIV has been very successful, not merely "not dying."

Also, as noted, that financial report was released early last year, which means it includes very little data on FFXIV because that game was in its infancy at the time the report was likely being worked on. FFXIV has been out for nearly a year if not a full year, since the report data was probably compiled.

[Bluestar2kx]

I don't know much about dragon quest, but I'd say those numbers are waaaaaaaayy out of date, FFXIV's lodestone page used to state clearly 2.5m subscribers.

So I would say thats where XIV is now, give or take a few thousand. I would bet it's going to keep increasing in the next few years.
FFXI I would estimate is around 120k active accounts. Likely stay around the same population for the next few years.
Can't speak to DQ as I know little about it as I said.

So yeah, definitely not dying.
Though FFXI isn't growing much, but that's better then declining.

[Pixela]

I don't know much about dragon quest, but I'd say those numbers are waaaaaaaayy out of date, FFXIV's lodestone page used to state clearly 2.5m subscribers.

So I would say thats where XIV is now, give or take a few thousand. I would bet it's going to keep increasing in the next few years.
FFXI I would estimate is around 120k active accounts. Likely stay around the same population for the next few years.
Can't speak to DQ as I know little about it as I said.

So yeah, definitely not dying.
Though FFXI isn't growing much, but that's better then declining.

The 2.5m number was never correct because it was never subscribers, that's why they removed it and why they gave the numbers they did last week.

The numbers are from last March because those are the numbers Square CEO chose to give, so I presume they are lower now (even if marginally lower) or they simply would not of used them.

[Bluestar2kx]

The 2.5m number was never correct because it was never subscribers, that's why they removed it and why they gave the numbers they did last week.

The numbers are from last March because those are the numbers Square CEO chose to give, so I presume they are lower now (even if marginally lower) or they simply would not of used them.

I can't believe those are accurate.
The fiscal year being quoted was dated march 31st 2014, this is not march, nor 2014, so those numbers are useless. Their next fiscal year report is listed to be after march of 2015.

So nothing you've listed or Pc gamer (why their linking to an almost year old report in 2015 is beyond me), is new, or even accurate almost a year later. Until march we likely won't have accurate numbers of current subscriptions to SE mmos and their operating costs and profit margins.

Pc gamer likely just did it for click bait because everyone's mad at SE for not remaking FFVII and instead doing some weird re-release of a re-release.

[Alhanelem]

aye, its nearly time for the next fiscal report to come out, so why PC Gamer or anyone here wants to have debates about old numbers is beyond me.

[Pixela]

aye, its nearly time for the next fiscal report to come out, so why PC Gamer or anyone here wants to have debates about old numbers is beyond me.

They are using the numbers Square used last week, not the medias fault Square decided for whatever reason to use those numbers is it?

If things have changed so much why would they use them?

[Bluestar2kx]

They are using the numbers Square used last week, not the medias fault Square decided for whatever reason to use those numbers is it?

If things have changed so much why would they use them?

Where is this statement that this is even current information somehow magically released just now?
And the reason why they might use this to any degree is because 2015's report is not out yet, what are they suppose to do? Pull numbers out of their butt and call it fact without having all of them? No, they'll reference last years report on anything that isn't complete yet for 2015's report, which again, is coming in a few months.

I've also seen nothing recent to counter SE's claim of 2.5m FFXIV subscriptions. Esp since their worlds are heavily populated, and they have well over 20 servers active.

So yes, it is the media's fault for reporting on this like it happened yesterday, when it's clearly marked that this is almost year old information. The media is trying to make hype out of dated information and presenting it as "just released", when it's not, and from the thread, so are you, unless you can back it up in some other fashion then irrelevant internet sites. I'm sure me and others reading this thread want a link to a statement by SE themselves, not old info reposted to gaming sites.

[Malithar]

So yes, it is the media's fault for reporting on this like it happened yesterday, when it's clearly marked that this is almost year old information. The media is trying to make hype out of dated information and presenting it as "just released", when it's not, and from the thread, so are you, unless you can back it up in some other fashion then irrelevant internet sites. I'm sure me and others reading this thread want a link to a statement by SE themselves, not old info reposted to gaming sites.

You're really being a blind fan boy you know? It's like the words "Square Enix released this information less than a week ago themselves" is beyond your comprehension. Whether the information is accurate as of this moment or not is really of no relevance, because that's the info they used, again, less than a week ago. They reported it to the media. They sat down and said "this is what we got, this is our plans" etc. None of this was drummed up, false reporting, etc.

As far as "pulling numbers out of their butt" maybe the company I work for is just ages ahead in this digital age we live in, but I can pull up the balances, credits, debits, time that accounts have been opened, pending orders, processed orders, etc, all while ordering and sorting them in many numbers of ways for over 50,000 accounts within seconds. I'd expect that if an international company wanted to give accurate up to the minute numbers, they would. Obviously, for one reason or another, they didn't. Wouldn't hurt if you understood the difference between "accounts" and "active subscribers" as well, vastly different numbers.

[Bluestar2kx]

*shrugs*
As if I care.
But whatever. We'll find out in 3 months who is really right and who is really wrong.

Arguing semantics here with this information is pointless.

p.s. Yes i know the difference. FFXI has 3m+ accounts. But only about 120k subs. Simple yeah? But readily available information doesn't dispute my point of FFXIV, could always login to XIV and prove me wrong.

[Alhanelem]

They are using the numbers Square used last week, not the medias fault Square decided for whatever reason to use those numbers is it?

If things have changed so much why would they use them?
Changed or not it doesnt make much sense to use them when they are probably already in the midst of preparing their next financial report. Though it's worth noting, one of the articles linked above has them stating "over 1 million subscribers" rather than the "nearly 1 million subscribers" which suggests either they're using data from some later point in time, twisting the numbers, or misstated the original numbers.

Oh, and I'll give you one guess which game is responsible (or most responsible) for the increase from "nearly" to "over" one million.


You're really being a blind fan boy you know? It's like the words "Square Enix released this information less than a week ago themselves" is beyond your comprehension.A more accurate way of stating this is "Square Enix commented on / discussed information that was previously released nearly a year ago less than a week ago themselves." They threw a number around, but that number was based on data from long before that. Again, why they would comment on old data when new data is due to be released in the next few months is beyond me.

[Pixela]

As of right now the official word is that all 3 games have 1 million subs combined (which is very generous given the company is using old figures), they would not of used old numbers when trying to speak to share holders if they had ballooned since then.

Simply put, when a CEO of a company uses 1 year old figures when they can easily use numbers that are available to him now that are more recent there is a reason.

As I stated in the OP, I would think XIV has around 550k Dragon quest has around 300k and FFXI probably has around 100 to 150k. I highly doubt those numbers have changed much, or at least not in a positive direction. No CEO would of used old numbers if they were worse than what they have right now, and don't say a CEO of a company can't get upto date figures until March that is silly. Also if the figures in march turn out to be a lot less you can expect them to be very vague so don't hold your breath.

Either way it's nice to see thta XIV isn't the juggernaut XIV players suggest it is and that it's just another MMO in their arsenal. FFXI is as relevent and important to Square as it always was, which proves it will be heavily supported for many, many years to come.

[PlumbGame]

As of right now the official word is that all 3 games have OVER 1 million subs combined

/10characters

[Seillan]

FFXI is as relevent and important to Square as it always was, which proves it will be heavily supported for many, many years to come.

Let's hope they can allocate some of that support to their broken billing department.

[Alhanelem]

As of right now the official word is that all 3 games have 1 million subs combined (which is very generous given the company is using old figures), they would not of used old numbers when trying to speak to share holders if they had ballooned since then.You say this as if you think they're trying to mask lower numbers but in fact they implied the number has increased given the change from "nearly 1 million" to "over 1 million".

[Pixela]

You say this as if you think they're trying to mask lower numbers but in fact they implied the number has increased given the change from "nearly 1 million" to "over 1 million".

Well the important part is that it's around 1 million combined, whether they are trying to hide lower numbers or not is another matter really. It is still fishy that a CEO would talk to the media and share holders and use figures from last march when he has no real need to do so (there is no way in hell that he could not get more recent figures), the reason he did so it up for personal opinion.

It's possible the over 1 million is adding on the chinese release numbers (from what I gather XIV flopped pretty badly in China) to give a total but we don't really know for sure other than currently it's around 1 million for everything.

As I stated before though the real thing to take away from this in regards to FFXI is that it's still important and still brings in a large share of their monthly revenue. Many have the mindset that XIV is a juggernaut and XI doesn't really matter anymore, this pretty much stomps on that idea and shows why XI is still incredibly relevent to the company.

[Alhanelem]

I doubt that he would use figures that haven't been officially released in a financial report that isn't due out for another 2 months.

[Pixela]

I doubt that he would use figures that haven't been officially released in a financial report that isn't due out for another 2 months.

Why? If the reality was 3 or 4 million he would of cleared it and used those figures, you act like it's hard to get current figures for the CEO of a company talking to share holders at a very important time. This is the CEO addressing a very important crowd, if the company had significantly higher numbers he would of used them. If they were greatly better than last March there is no way he would of not used them or given far better numbers (even with the SE norm of being vague).

You may not like the numbers but they are what they are, all their titles together have around 1 million paying users as of last week.

[Alhanelem]

Why? If the reality was 3 or 4 million he would of cleared it and used those figures,Why? because if a new financial report is due out soon, it would make a lot more sense to wait for that to be released to make any sort of announcements or proclamations regardless of what the numbers are.

[Kimble]

Hmm IDK, FFXIV's main page a few months back advertised having more than 2.4 million subs. So I'd like to think FFXIV was a little higher.

I believe FFXIV has been off and on with subs. I, myself, subbed every month. After beta on PS3 and moving to PS4, I subbed every month when they began subs (about September or October 2013) until I stopped in December 2014 in favor of FFXI again.

Many people in chat on FFXI also mentioned how they let their FFXIV subs expire.

[Pixela]

Why? because if a new financial report is due out soon, it would make a lot more sense to wait for that to be released to make any sort of announcements or proclamations regardless of what the numbers are.

The statement the CEO made last week was at the end of year financial report to the people he answers to, the shareholders and keep in mind that the current guy recently took over because the last one failed.

If the figures were higher he would of stated them at this point and it's frankly stupid that you are arguing he wouldn't just because they want to hold the numbers back for the official report. There is no way in hell he would of not painted the best possible picture he could at this event, if that required him giving paying users numbers a little early he would of done it.

This was not a press release only, it was an end of year announcement to the shareholders at a time when the company was reeling from massive losses that lead to the last CEO quitting in disgrace.

[PlumbGame]

I believe FFXIV has been off and on with subs. I, myself, subbed every month. After beta on PS3 and moving to PS4, I subbed every month when they began subs (about September or October 2013) until I stopped in December 2014 in favor of FFXI again.

Many people in chat on FFXI also mentioned how they let their FFXIV subs expire.

I no longer play FFXIV either, and the last time I did, there did seem to be a lot less pop than normal.

[Alhanelem]

If the figures were higher he would of stated them at this point and it's frankly stupid that you are arguing he wouldn't just because they want to hold the numbers back for the official report.I dont think he would be holding anything back, because as we've noted, they have a financial report coming up in two months (as stated for the 328479324th time. It is unlikely that report is actually already completed, and therefore unlikely that the numbers he is using in the quotation are very recent.


I no longer play FFXIV either, and the last time I did, there did seem to be a lot less pop than normal. There isn't less pop but more people stacking on the most populated servers- there are many that are currently at official capacity and are locked down to CC at most hours of the day (you have to make a character early in the morning to get on). Even though these servers are technically over capacity as a result, you have this syndrome of everyone wanting to be on the most populous server even though 1) that's not necessary for a good game experience and 2) too many people on a server is not always a good thing. The Duty Finder system in XIV enables players to get their boss fights etc. done regardless of their own server's population.

Also it is very common, especially with power gamers, to play the crap out of a game when a new patch comes out, and if they conquer everything there is to conquer before the next patch comes out, they gradually play less. It happens here too, and it happens in every big MMO, thus you see higher pops when a patch is new and lower pops late into the patch before the next one comes out. The only bad thing that can say is that it's taking them longer than optimal to release patches (but they're only human and can only work so fast)

I currently have active subscriptions to both games and often am playing one during downtime in the other. :p

[Pixela]

I dont think he would be holding anything back, because as we've noted, they have a financial report coming up in two months (as stated for the 328479324th time. It is unlikely that report is actually already completed, and therefore unlikely that the numbers he is using in the quotation are very recent.

There isn't less pop but more people stacking on the most populated servers- there are many that are currently at official capacity and are locked down to CC at most hours of the day (you have to make a character early in the morning to get on). Even though these servers are technically over capacity as a result, you have this syndrome of everyone wanting to be on the most populous server even though 1) that's not necessary for a good game experience and 2) too many people on a server is not always a good thing. The Duty Finder system in XIV enables players to get their boss fights etc. done regardless of their own server's population.

Also it is very common, especially with power gamers, to play the crap out of a game when a new patch comes out, and if they conquer everything there is to conquer before the next patch comes out, they gradually play less. It happens here too, and it happens in every big MMO, thus you see higher pops when a patch is new and lower pops late into the patch before the next one comes out. The only bad thing that can say is that it's taking them longer than optimal to release patches (but they're only human and can only work so fast)

I currently have active subscriptions to both games and often am playing one during downtime in the other. :p

They don't have vastly more players now than they did in March, the CEO does not need a financial report to be finalised to be able to know how many paying players they have lol These are numbers he can work out within days at any time if he gives the order for them to be calculated. He gave the numbers he did out of choice.

It's kinda silly to assume an mmo would have more players now than it did last march honestly anyway, that's not how these games work. Even if it makes people feel better to think it is, it's just not reality.

[Alhanelem]

It's kinda silly to assume an mmo would have more players now than it did last march honestly anyway, that's not how these games work. Even if it makes people feel better to think it is, it's just not reality. I'm not sure what exactly you find about it that's silly. Also their total subscribers did increase unless you want to tell me that he didn't just get new numbers and instead just made them up. So unless he's just flat out lying, it actually IS reality.

The fact you're being so general about MMO populations is also silly- If a game does well, of course its population will increase. Unless the game is bad, it is not at all reasonable to see a game's potential peak population more than a year out. I don't think WoW peaked until a couple years in. I dn't know why people "feel" anything about the numbers. They're just numbers, and while they're interesting to look at, it's really not that important. There are too many MMOs out there for them to all have several million subscribers (p2p) or active accounts (f2p). To make a decision about what game you're going to play based on sales or population statistics or to judge it based on them is beyond silly. I've played many fun MMOs with smaller total populations than XI.

While that nearly or over 1 million number doesn't sound high, It's still higher than a pretty long list of MMOs to have come out in the last several years.

So just for funsies, I'll take a stab at the original question. Let's be a little generous and assume that "over 1 million" means 1.1 million total subscribers to SE MMOs. My breakdown would be:

30k DQXO (This game is only avialable in Japan and South Korea)
70k FFXI (possibly generous, taking current concurrent users and multiplying it since not all players are active at the same time or play everyday, plus mule accounts)
~1m FFXIV (They were prolcaiming over 3.2 million "players" on the Lodestone at one point, assuming that number is accounts created, I don't think a sub conversion rate of one third is overly generous)

XIV is also approaching its first expansion in 3-4 months, and as with any MMO that will trigger a number of resubs and new accounts.

[Pixela]

I'm not sure what exactly you find about it that's silly. Also their total subscribers did increase unless you want to tell me that he didn't just get new numbers and instead just made them up. So unless he's just flat out lying, it actually IS reality.

The fact you're being so general about MMO populations is also silly- If a game does well, of course its population will increase. Unless the game is bad, it is not at all reasonable to see a game's potential peak population more than a year out. I don't think WoW peaked until a couple years in. I dn't know why people "feel" anything about the numbers. They're just numbers, and while they're interesting to look at, it's really not that important. There are too many MMOs out there for them to all have several million subscribers (p2p) or active accounts (f2p). To make a decision about what game you're going to play based on sales or population statistics or to judge it based on them is beyond silly. I've played many fun MMOs with smaller total populations than XI.

While that nearly or over 1 million number doesn't sound high, It's still higher than a pretty long list of MMOs to have come out in the last several years.

MMO populations simply don't increase this way and not by silly large numbers as people seem to be implying (yes, even if they are good) even if they add lots of new content and expansions. Modern mmo players get bored quick and leave an mmo at a faster rate than new ones join, there is simply way too much competition these days.

A film doesn't make more money a year later than it did at launch, a game like destiny or Assassins Creed Unity don't sell better after free dlc and patches than it did during launch and an mmo doesn't have more players a year later.

Square said a while back that DQXO had 300k subs, and FFXIV had 500k. If FFXIV really did have a large increase they would of said it because there is a huge amount of prestige in doing something that difficult in the modern mmo world, especially in one that is linked to their most important franchise.

[Alhanelem]

MMO populations simply don't increase this way and not by silly large numbers as people seem to be implyingWithin an MMOs first year ( or longer if it's really successful) yes, they do indeed increase that way, unless the game is a flop.

Also, we aren't talking about "silly large numbers here." They suggested a modest increase ("nearly 1 million" to "over 1 million." I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that we're exaggerating the numbers or misinterpreting them.



Square said a while back that DQXO had 300k subs, and FFXIV had 500k.FFXI never had 500k subscribers. They had 500k ACCOUNTS, and that was several years ago. There is no way DQXO has 300k active subs. FFXIV has more servers than both games combined and there are easily thousands on each compared to several hundred on the XI servers. A simple search of each zone will reveal that (cant /sea all it doesn't give a total number), and that doesn't count the number of people in instances (which is a lot since its a heavily instance based game)

DQX is only available in a very localized area so I'm pretty confident that "300k" is accounts not subs as well. as previously mentioned, the last time the numbers were given FFXIV had at least 3.2 million accounts.

So if you want to (insert negative verb here) on FFXIV, at least use current data and understand what data you're using when you do it.


Many have the mindset that XIV is a juggernaut and XI doesn't really matter anymoreWhile XIV almost certainly is a juggernaut compared to the other two games in terms of the share of that statistic, as long as the games are profitable, they are all benefitting SE's bottom line and should all be considered "important."

I guess you must hate XIV or something- it barely takes 5 minutes of playing it to see that there are far more players on each server than in XI. then you can go peruse the server list here: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/worldstatus/

[Pixela]

Within an MMOs first year ( or longer if it's really successful) yes, they do indeed increase that way, unless the game is a flop.

Also, we aren't talking about "silly large numbers here." They suggested a modest increase ("nearly 1 million" to "over 1 million." I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that we're exaggerating the numbers or misinterpreting them.

FFXI never had 500k subscribers. They had 500k ACCOUNTS, and that was several years ago. There is no way DQXO has 300k active subs. FFXIV has more servers than both games combined and there are easily thousands on each compared to several hundred on the XI servers. A simple search of each zone will reveal that (cant /sea all it doesn't give a total number), and that doesn't count the number of people in instances (which is a lot since its a heavily instance based game)

DQX is only available in a very localized area so I'm pretty confident that "300k" is accounts not subs as well. as previously mentioned, the last time the numbers were given FFXIV had at least 3.2 million accounts.

So if you want to (insert negative verb here) on FFXIV, at least use current data and understand what data you're using when you do it.

While XIV almost certainly is a juggernaut compared to the other two games in terms of the share of that statistic, as long as the games are profitable, they are all benefitting SE's bottom line and should all be considered "important."

They said all 3 mmo titles combined had around 1 million. Also please tell me any mmo released in the last 5 years that has gained subscribers over a 1 year period, it just doesn't happen and you can't name one. MMO titles have player retention issues because of massive competition and lots of new titles and as such it's a decrease over time, the success of a title is how fast or slow the decrease is.

If you think Square are not liars then DQXO had 300k subscribers and FFXI did have 500k SUBSCRIBERS (FFXIV barely beat the best FFXI managed but cost vastly more to create so FFXI will always remain the most profitable FF title ever). If you're going to argue this much you should go check your facts.

Please don't go linking servers, most of those servers are very quiet and let's not forget that SWG had 4 times as many servers. You don't count servers, you count the words from Square themselves.

As I said, FFXIV is a moderate success (and if you calculate in the massive losses from v1, not even that) but FFXI and DQ are both still huge money makers which makes them very important to Square and will be supported for many many years to come. Which is good news!

[Alhanelem]

"They said all 3 mmo titles combined had around 1 million." They said in their march 2014 financial report that they had "nearly 1 million." They later stated in one of the linked articles above that they now have "over 1 million." That by itself implies an increase. Are you trying to suggest that DQX and FFXI are responsible for that increase and not FFXIV?


Also please tell me any mmo released in the last 5 years that has gained subscribers over a 1 year period, it just doesn't happen and you can't name oneEvery MMO starts with zero players, therefore every MMO gains subscribers over its first year period, unless it doesn't last that long. If you want to skip past the first initial influx, I'm willing to bet that most MMOs that did not die (either outright or essentially) within that year saw an increase from their first month at the end of their year. XIV had been out for maybe 4 months when SE likely began to compile the data for its financial report (which, if you look at how elaborate the report is, it probably took weeks to create with all the data finalized). Considering that it has been successful enough to have not just one but three fan events, something that XI never had, I'd say the odds are pretty damn good that there was an increase between then and now.

On my server in XIV, I can find more people in one zone than Shiva on XI has in both of the game's most populous cities (which comprise several zones) combined, and that number by itself represents around a third of shiva's population.

If you'd like, I'll continue counting up the players to show you how much whatsit your argument is full of. :)


Please don't go linking servers, most of those servers are very quiet and let's not forget that SWG had 4 times as many servers. You don't count servers, you count the words from Square themselves.Dude, you're talking out your behind. "most of those servers are very quiet?" No, they're not. SE closes servers to character creation when they have too many people online. There are more servers closed to character creation at this very moment than XI has period.

I'm really not sure how you're deluding yourself into thinking that DQX and FFXI are more successful than FFXIV, but whatever you're taking to make yourself feel that way, I want some of it!

If you search in XIV, you can look in each of 8 different regions (the three city regions, and the 5 field regions) On my server all of them except one return well over 200 users, that's 1600 players not counting the ones that are in instances (which can't be searched directly), and this isn't even prime time. Every single Legacy world is like that, and many others are as well. Additionally, 16 worlds are currently locked to character creation, and this isn't really a peak time for either the JP or NA datacenters.

/sea all in Shiva/XI just turned up 705 players for me. Hyperion/XIV I'm still adding it up as you can't /sea all but my estimate is probably not to far off (again excluding players in instances)

Clearly you don't play the game since you really don't have the slightest idea how many people are on a server.

So please, keep telling yourself DQX and XI have the lion's share of players. Don't get me wrong. I love XI and I'm sure DQX is great too. I wouldn't be here posting if I didn't have an FFXI sub. But you really need to face facts.

Your comments just have so much fanboyism injected in them... I literally am playing both games at the same time right now. I think that's a pretty good indication I like them both and can look at them objectively. So I'm going to stop things here and let the other people reading this stuff decide.

[Pixela]

Every MMO starts with zero players, therefore every MMO gains subscribers over its first year period, unless it doesn't last that long. If you want to skip past the first initial influx, I'm willing to bet that most MMOs that did not die (either outright or essentially) within that year saw an increase from their first month at the end of their year. XIV had been out for maybe 4 months when SE likely began to compile the data for its financial report (which, if you look at how elaborate the report is, it probably took weeks to create with all the data finalized). Considering that it has been successful enough to have not just one but three fan events, something that XI never had, I'd say the odds are pretty damn good that there was an increase between then and now.

On my server in XIV, I can find more people in one zone than Shiva on XI has in both of the game's most populous cities (which comprise several zones) combined, and that number by itself represents around a third of shiva's population.

If you'd like, I'll continue counting up the players to show you how much whatsit your argument is full of.

I'm glad you agree with me that no mmo would have more players a year later (I'm assuming you agree since you posted pretty much nothing to argue against it). Did you really try to make an argument about an mmo starts with 0?..

The truth is that FFXI has a way to count total servers players, FFXIV does not. Of course FFXIV has more players than FFXI though, nobody ever argued anything else because it's 12? years old now (I already said an mmo loses players as it ages). You just got upset that I pointed out it's not a juggernaut and simply a modest success. Is that so horrible for you to hear? FFXIV is currently doing as well as FFXI did when it was new, just a pity it cost such a vast amount more to make...


Dude, you're talking out your behind. "most of those servers are very quiet?" No, they're not. SE closes servers to character creation when they have too many people online. There are more servers closed to character creation at this very moment than XI has period.

I'm really not sure how you're deluding yourself into thinking that DQX and FFXI are more successful than FFXIV, but whatever you're taking to make yourself feel that way, I want some of it!

If you search in XIV, you can look in each of 8 different regions (the three city regions, and the 5 field regions) On my server all of them except one return well over 200 users, that's 1600 players not counting the ones that are in instances (which can't be searched directly), and this isn't even prime time. Every single Legacy world is like that, and many others are as well. Additionally, 16 worlds are currently locked to character creation, and this isn't really a peak time for either the JP or NA datacenters.

/sea all in Shiva/XI just turned up 705 players for me. Hyperion/XIV I'm still adding it up as you can't /sea all but my estimate is probably not to far off (again excluding players in instances)

Clearly you don't play the game since you really don't have the slightest idea how many people are on a server.

So please, keep telling yourself DQX and XI have the lion's share of players. Don't get me wrong. I love XI and I'm sure DQX is great too. I wouldn't be here posting if I didn't have an FFXI sub. But you really need to face facts.

Your comments just have so much fanboyism injected in them... I literally am playing both games at the same time right now. I think that's a pretty good indication I like them both and can look at them objectively. So I'm going to stop things here and let the other people reading this stuff decide.

Yes, most of those servers are very quiet. Most people want to transfer to the few busy servers which causes congestion on those few servers, this isn't news to anyone that actually plays the game and wants to be truthful. Is this really that hard to understand?! o.O

You seem to be taking this oh so personally and I'm not sure why, even going to the point of trying to give peak numbers form one game to off-peak in another XD

As I said in the OP, FFXIV probably has around 400-500k, DQ probably around 300k and FFXI has around 100-200k. I'm just telling it like it is and what the CEO told us all last week.

It's good news to post on the FFXI forum, FFXI is still a major money maker and still makes up a large share of their monthly paying users. Many think FFXIV is massive, but it's not and that's good news for us XI players because it means we are still very important to the company.

[Alhanelem]

I'm glad you agree with me that no mmo would have more players a year later (I'm assuming you agree since you posted pretty much nothing to argue against it). Did you really try to make an argument about an mmo starts with 0?..
If you think that quotation constitutes an agreement of any kind, well, I can't really say what I'd like to say because it would be against the forum rules, but you're wrong.

Yes, all MMOs start with 0. All games of all time start with 0. There's no players until somebody buys it. I also explicitly stated that we can skip past the initial sales if you want, but seems like you ignored that.


Yes, most of those servers are very quiet. Most people want to transfer to the few busy servers which causes congestion on those few servers, this isn't news to anyone that actually plays the game and wants to be truthful. Is this really that hard to understand?! o.OFalse. Everyone wants to move to the most populated server even if their own server has plenty of players on it. It happens in every MMO ever.


You seem to be taking this oh so personally and I'm not sure why, even going to the point of trying to give peak numbers form one game to off-peak in another XDI'm not taking this personally, but you are twisting some vague numbers to mean whatever the hell you want them to mean and not presenting any actual truth. Any numbers brought up, you respond with vague statements.


As I said in the OP, FFXIV probably has around 400-500k, DQ probably around 300k and FFXI has around 100-200k. I'm just telling it like it is and what the CEO told us all last week.You're not "telling it like it is." You're just making up numbers. The closest I could possibly come to agreeing with anything in that statement is the notion that DQX might have more players than XI. That's possible, but I'm also considering the fact that XI has a worldwide release where as DQX is only available in two countries.

FFXI does not have 100-200k active subscriptions. Unlike with the other two games, its pretty easy to make a ballpark estimate based on concurrent users. There is no way to bend or twist XI's active subscribers to that kind of a number.

You see, there's a confusion here between "subscribers" and "accounts." Accounts is everyone who's ever bought the game and played it for any amount of time. Subscribers are currently paying customers. That is, total accounts minus accounts with no active subscription. A couple years after its release, XI bragged about having 500,000 players, which was later revealed to be accounts, not subscribers. XIV's lodestone at one point proclaimed 2.5 million players (again, not subscribers) Actual subscribers would probably half that at best, more likely 25-33%. DQX we don't really have much info on. please do cite this article where SE can be quoted as saying that game has 300,000 *subscribers* (not accounts). Back up your vague claims with verifiable sources. I at least came up with ballpark figures by counting up the people I actually see playing in the game.

Remember, subscribers, not accounts. The CEO in both cases of stating "1 million" referred to subscribers (because that's what's giving them money). make sure that whatever numbers you're pulling refer to subscribers.

[Pixela]

If you think that quotation constitutes an agreement of any kind, well, I can't really say what I'd like to say because it would be against the forum rules, but you're wrong.

Yes, all MMOs start with 0. All games of all time start with 0. There's no players until somebody buys it. I also explicitly stated that we can skip past the initial sales if you want, but seems like you ignored that.

Well I assume you agreed because you had no counter to my post and just posted pretty much nothing.

As I said, no modern MMO grows its sub base and you can't put any valid argument against me. So aside from what you seem to specialise in (just posting WORDS) I see no other conclusion.


False. Everyone wants to move to the most populated server even if their own server has plenty of players on it. It happens in every MMO ever.


It's not false, it's fact but you don't like it so it just becomes false XD There are very many underpopulated servers and a few over populated ones. Have you even tried to play on some of the JP servers? They are really low pop.


I'm not taking this personally, but you are twisting some vague numbers to mean whatever the hell you want them to mean and not presenting any actual truth. Any numbers brought up, you respond with vague statements.

I'm not twisting numbers, you are. When I call you out on your rubbish numbers you totally ignore it from that point on because you know you're wrong. Also stop stating vague numbers when the CEO of the company stated them to share holders and the media. You not liking them does not equal to "twisting vague numbers". All numbers I have given have been stated in financial reports, media reports and CEO statements.


You're not "telling it like it is." You're just making up numbers. The closest I could possibly come to agreeing with anything in that statement is the notion that DQX might have more players than XI. That's possible, but I'm also considering the fact that XI has a worldwide release where as DQX is only available in two countries.

FFXI does not have 100-200k active subscriptions. Unlike with the other two games, its pretty easy to make a ballpark estimate based on concurrent users. There is no way to bend or twist XI's active subscribers to that kind of a number.

The rock solid numbers are all 3 MMO titles have 1 million combined, that DQx has around 300k and that FFXI has around 100-150k players. That leaves 500-600k for FFXIV.

FFXI very much could (and probably does have) have 100-200k subs, keep in mind that FFXI servers are worldwide so has many peaks to count and FFXIV is regional so only has one peak. unless you think just over 6k subscribers per FFXI server is crazy and out of reality? I doubt many others would agree since as I said there are NA peak, JP peak and EU peak to count and they don't all play at the same time either.

As I say, to have a basic idea of a FFXI server population you have to count player numbers at each prime time (you know, those crazy worldwide servers) and then you still don't have a good number because a lot of players don't play every day or are subbed but not currently playing.


That is, total accounts minus accounts with no active subscription. A couple years after its release, XI bragged about having 500,000 players, which was later revealed to be accounts, not subscribers. XIV's lodestone at one point proclaimed 2.5 million players (again, not subscribers) Actual subscribers would probably half that at best, more likely 25-33%. DQX we don't really have much info on. please do cite this article where SE can be quoted as saying that game has 300,000 *subscribers* (not accounts). Back up your vague claims with verifiable sources. I at least came up with ballpark figures by counting up the people I actually see playing in the game.

I'm counting subscribers, not accounts. FFXI peaked at 500k subscribers and DQ at 300k (and the fact this game has 300k subs for one region says a lot about XIV), these numbers are really easy to find in official announcements so I'm not sure why you're arguing against them at all.

[Alhanelem]

As I said, no modern MMO grows its sub base and you can't put any valid argument against me.Every modern MMO grows its sub base for some amount of time, and you can't just dismiss any argument you dont like as not valid. Every MMO had to start from somewhere. They didn't have their thousands or millions of subscribers the very first second of release. Depending on how successful that MMO is, it may grow for a short time or it may gro from longer. The point is, every population curve starts at 0, increases up to a certain peak over some period of time, and then eventually declines.


It's not false, it's fact but you don't like it so it just becomes false XD There are very many underpopulated servers and a few over populated ones. Have you even tried to play on some of the JP servers? They are really low pop.It's not a fact because you have no data. There is no data, no statistics have been provided by anyone other than subjective comments.


FFXI peaked at 500k subscribersthat was accounts, not subscribers.

and DQ at 300kYou still havent posted a source that explcitly states this.

(and the fact this game has 300k subs for one region says a lot about XIV)You can't infer anything whatsoever about XIV from that comment one way or another.


these numbers are really easy to find in official announcements so I'm not sure why you're arguing against them at all. If they're so easy to find you should have no problem posting your sources.


I'm not twisting numbers, you are. When I call you out on your rubbish numbers you totally ignore it from that point on because you know you're wrong.I havent posted any rubbish numbers. The only numbers I've given (that I didn't explicitly state as guesses) were the two numbers given by the CEO ("nearly 1 million" in the 2014 financial report, and the article linked earlier in the thread where it was said "over 1 million").


As I say, to have a basic idea of a FFXI server population you have to count player numbers at each prime timeI'm aware of this and factored that in (all times, actually- not just prime times.)

You're just making baseless attacks and not backing up what you say with sources. You also talk like you are some kind of authority figure and that everyone should just believe what you say without question because since you said it, it must be fact!

When you stop pulling numbers out of nowhere and post actual links to actual reliable sources, then maybe people reading this can take it with something less than a giant mountain of salt.

Your next post better contain some good links to good sources.

[Pixela]

It's not a fact because you have no data.

All 3 games combined have 1 million subscribers, this is according to the CEO of the company.

FFXI peaked at 500k subscribers (FINAL FANTASY XI has a robust community of 500,000 subscribers and more than 1.7 million player characters).

DQ peaked at 300k subscribers from an interview in 2013 with the director of that game.

I can link them but why should I baby feed you? Go google it yourself.


You can't infer anything whatsoever about XIV from that comment one way or another.

Well if one MMO has 300k for one region and another has around 500-600k for the world I kinda can.


I'm aware of this and factored that in (all times, actually- not just prime times.)

You're just making baseless attacks and not backing up what you say with sources.

Sure you did XD So are you saying that 6k subscribers per FFXI server is out of the realms of possibility? Given they are worldwide and that many players only play on certain days etc.

I'm not making attacks, I'm simply stating numbers. Just because you don't like them does not make my post attacks lol

[Alhanelem]

Still waiting for those links. :)

Burden of proof is on you to back up your claims. It's not my responsibility. If you can't google it yourself and paste the link here, that tells me you don't have one.

Your comments have no validity until you back them up with sources.

You know, I've been through so many arguments on this forum where someone makes a radical claim without data or links to sources, and when I ask for them, they fail to deliver. It's a classic scenario, and I find it quite amusing to witness. It's up to the person making a claim to prove it. You can't expect your audience to go find the proof for you.

Until the proof is delivered, I'll be off enjoying my video games :)

[Kimble]

Still waiting for those links. :)

Burden of proof is on you to back up your claims. It's not my responsibility. If you can't google it yourself and paste the link here, that tells me you don't have one.

Your comments have no validity until you back them up with sources.

You know, I've been through so many arguments on this forum where someone makes a radical claim without data or links to sources, and when I ask for them, they fail to deliver. It's a classic scenario, and I find it quite amusing to witness. It's up to the person making a claim to prove it. You can't expect your audience to go find the proof for you.

Until the proof is delivered, I'll be off enjoying my video games :)

Or.... You can just google the information they are saying instead of getting a headache about it...lol... That's what I do.

[Alhanelem]

Or, you can go ahead and provide the proof to your claims :) Should be just as easy for you as you say it is for me.

You're not the first person to fail to back up their claims when I ask for proof, so dont feel bad. :)

[Pixela]

Still waiting for those links. :)

Burden of proof is on you to back up your claims. It's not my responsibility. If you can't google it yourself and paste the link here, that tells me you don't have one.

Your comments have no validity until you back them up with sources.

You can have a long wait then, I'm not going to baby feed you.

For anyone else reading this they can easily type the words I posted below into google and find the links.

"FINAL FANTASY XI has a robust community of 500,000 subscribers and more than 1.7 million player characters"
"Dragon Quest X 400k subscribers"

So as I said in OP, 1 million subscribers for all 3 titles. 300k for DQX, 100k-150k for FFXI and 550-600k for FFXIV.

Actually I was wrong, DQx peaked at 400k subs instead of 300k. Edited above accordingly.

FFXI is still very important, FFXIV is a modest success but the thing to take away is basically that XIV is not as big a deal as some thought and it's still the mmo division as a whole that is important to the shareholders and success of the company. I've seen some people post how they thought XI could shut down because XIV has millions of subs and is only 2nd to WoW, this shows that not to be the case and only combined do the sub numbers become noteworthy.

[Kimble]

You can have a long wait then, I'm not going to baby feed you.

For anyone else reading this they can easily type the words I posted below into google and find the links.

"FINAL FANTASY XI has a robust community of 500,000 subscribers and more than 1.7 million player characters"
"Dragon Quest X 300k subscribers"

So as I said in OP, 1 million subscribers for all 3 titles. 300k for DQX, 100k-150k for FFXI and 550-600k for FFXIV.

FFXI is still very important, FFXIV is a modest success but the thing to take away is basically that XIV is not as big a deal as some thought and it's still the mmo division as a whole that is important to the shareholders and success of the company. I've seen some people post how they thought XI could shut down because XIV has millions of subs and is only 2nd to WoW, this shows that not to be the case and only combined do the sub numbers become noteworthy.

Yeah, that's why I said he could have googled it instead of trying to be crabby about it.

[Alhanelem]

You can have a long wait then, I'm not going to baby feed you.I'm not asking to be baby fed, I'm asking for proof of claims. You make claims, you have to provide proof. It's not my responsibility to prove your claims.

If you can paste the headlines, you can paste the links. Why is that so hard for you? Data without sources is useless, and I won't believe a word you say until you post links. You call it baby feeding, I call it making stuff up or refusing to prove claims.

Failiure to post links is faliure to prove your argument.

[Pixela]

Yeah, that's why I said he could have googled it instead of trying to be crabby about it.

He is too busy playing his games I guess :P


I'm not asking to be baby fed, I'm asking for proof of claims. You make claims, you have to provide proof. It's not my responsibility to prove your claims.

If you can paste the headlines, you can paste the links. Why is that so hard for you?

You're asking to be babyfed, anyone else can easily find all the information that proves you wrong from what I've provided. That's enough for me since you already know I'm right.

[Alhanelem]

You're asking to be babyfed, anyone else can easily find all the information that proves you wrong. That's enough for me since you already know I'm right. If anyone can easily find it, so can you. I know you're wrong, and you are wrong until you prove otherwise.

It is up to the person making a claim to prove that claim is true. I'm not going to prove your claims for you. Call it whatever you want, you're still wrong til you prove otherwise.

Your claims would not hold up in a court, and they would not hold up here. If you're on trial and asked to produce evidence, you can't tell them to just google it.

just like every thread before this with unproven claims, it ends the same way- the claimant doesn't provide the proof. putting words in your opponents mouth doesn't help either.


I've seen some people post how they thought XI could shut down because XIV has millions of subs and is only 2nd to WoW, this shows that not to be the case and only combined do the sub numbers become noteworthy.Just in case anyone thinks so, I've not made any claim of this sort, and I know full well the number on the lodestone was accounts not subs as I explained many times before. The only reason we have a problem in this thread is because you are unwilling to provide sources to back up your numbers, purely because you want to call the act of doing so some derogatory term when clearly you either 1) don't actually have sources, or 2) you're just too lazy to press CTRL V and CTRL P.

[Kimble]

If anyone can easily find it, so can you. I know you're wrong, and you are wrong until you prove otherwise.

It is up to the person making a claim to prove that claim is true. I'm not going to prove your claims for you. Call it whatever you want, you're still wrong til you prove otherwise.

Your claims would not hold up in a court, and they would not hold up here. If you're on trial and asked to produce evidence, you can't tell them to just google it.

just like every thread before this with unproven claims, it ends the same way- the claimant doesn't provide the proof. putting words in your opponents mouth doesn't help either.

lol @ you for such a statement!!! If you know s/he's wrong, where is your proof saying they are wrong?

[Alhanelem]

lol @ you for such a statement!!! If you know s/he's wrong, where is your proof saying they are wrong?
The proof is in the lack of proof submitted by the claimant. I cite all of his posts as proof because he hasn't provided any actual evidence to the contrary other than numbers he has refused to provide sources for. It

As soon as he provides the sources and I confirm they're valid, this thread will be over :)

it is the responsibility of the person making a claim to prove it. It is not the responsibility of the people challenging the claim to prove their opponent's argument is true, because that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

You keep trying to turn it around on me, but anyone with any logical sense will reject his claims until he provides the proof for them. Why should every reader have to google it? Any ordinary person who makes a claim and has proof can provide it and has no qualm about doing so. It is not "baby feeding" to prove your own argument. All you have to do is prove it and I'll believe it.

[Malithar]

Christ, lets argue for pages over who's priority it is to Google numbers so we can nitpick and argue about other things.

FWIW Alhan, your numbers are just as trashy as anyone's. FFXI a few hundred subscribers per server?


FFXIV has more servers than both games combined and there are easily thousands on each compared to several hundred on the XI servers.

Derp? I'd pick out more but this thread is so silly. CEO used old numbers (anyone's guess as to why), numbers are reported, fan boys argue about validity of numbers provided by CEO, queue multiple pages nit picking over who should have to Google for accurate numbers. Seriously winning there brah.

[Bluestar2kx]

Wow.... I can't believe everyone is still arguing about this, as well as arguing over arguing.

Just wait until the report in April.
Life will go on still whether this is resolved now or not. (And it won't be resolved.)

But we can at least all seem to agree, FFXI is important to SE, of course, it's been printing them money since 2005, so that isn't hard to get.

Just let it go.
(no pun intended)

[Alhanelem]

FWIW Alhan, your numbers are just as trashy as anyone's. FFXI a few hundred subscribers per server?Quote me? Shiva has ~700 players online right now. I don't recall saying "a few hundred subscribers per server." 700, a number I provided earlier directly from the /sea all command, is more than "a few hundred." So, I don't know where I said that, but I will qualify it to "players online per server," because that's what was actually intended.


fan boys argue about validity of numbers provided by CEOI'm not a fanboy- but I certainly am looking down the barrel of a hater. How can you call me a fanboy when I'm clearly here posting with a valid subscription and in fact am currently playing this game right now? I'd be kidding myself to think that XI is as big of a player as he is arguing, however. Some simple search commands are all it takes to see the difference.

The numbers I'm questioning aren't the CEO's (although the numbers are out of date now, they were at least at one time accurate)- It's this person's breakdown of those numbers. None of the alleged data he has comes from the exact same time as the CEO's announcement nor do they come directly from him (unless he can prove otherwise). All I'm asking for is proof of these numbers for each game that he is presenting as fact but without evidence. I really don't think that's much to ask, but getting that information out of him is like pulling teeth it seems. The fact that he's so unwilling to prove his own argument is one of the primary reasons I find it quesitonable.

Another random bit info, take it for what you will, is the amount of RMT spamvertisements I see in each game. In XI, I haven't seen one since I resubbed. in XIV I get several each day (including like half a dozen in the last 30 mins or so). If you can glean anything from that, since its the same Special Task Force that combats RMT in both games, it's that the RMT find XIV to be a more lucrative business. If you want proof, I'll be happy to post screenshots of my chatlogs from both games :)

[Byrth]

100-150k subscribers for FFXI is kind of a large range for a company to have when estimating how many people pay them for a product. It would also indicate there are 6250~9375 accounts per server right now, which requires you to assume almost a 200-350% "dark account" rate of people who are paying for a service they hardly use.

On Lakshmi, a rough current population breakdown gives us:
Total: 699
In Town: 405
In areas surrounding Adoulin: ~100, only 9 people in [U] areas
Bots: 25 (at least - just counting ones I know of in Boyahda Tree and other zones)
Other: ~170, spread throughout the ~280 uncounted areas.

There are always about 500 people left online when the servers go down, so I feel it's actually pretty safe to assume about 400 people are just near-perennially afk. At JP times, we spike up to ~1100 on Lakshmi. Subtracting that same afk population, we get a total of 300+700+400 = 1400. Assuming half of the players log in every other day, we'd be up to ~2000. It still requires a 200% "dark account" rate (people who log in less than every other day) to push you up to even 6000 accounts per server. I'd be amazed if they still had that many absentminded subscribers considering how hard it is to consistently pay them for FFXI.

[FrankReynolds]

And just to be clear here, the odds of any company accepting regular online payments not having an accountant who runs the numbers every single day are slim to none. I guarantee you that they can pull a subscriber count from every service in a matter of minutes. Accounting software has been capable of this sort of thing since the 70s.

[Alhanelem]

And just to be clear here, the odds of any company accepting regular online payments not having an accountant who runs the numbers every single day are slim to none. I guarantee you that they can pull a subscriber count from every service in a matter of minutes. Accounting software has been capable of this sort of thing since the 70s.
Those numbers tend to be kept close to their chests regardless of how good or bad they are. Good, accurate information is not easy to come by because they arent often the ones to provide it (And it's not so much that they give out wrong numbers but more that they aren't given often enough).

[Clou777]

i think ffxi has a total of 100 players across all servers all of which have a buttload of mules on different accounts

[Alhanelem]

i think ffxi has a total of 100 players across all servers all of which have a buttload of mules on different accounts
that's not as big of an exaggeration as we'd like it to be. :p

[Pixela]

Quote me? Shiva has ~700 players online right now. I don't recall saying "a few hundred subscribers per server." 700, a number I provided earlier directly from the /sea all command, is more than "a few hundred." So, I don't know where I said that, but I will qualify it to "players online per server," because that's what was actually intended.

I'm not a fanboy- but I certainly am looking down the barrel of a hater. How can you call me a fanboy when I'm clearly here posting with a valid subscription and in fact am currently playing this game right now? I'd be kidding myself to think that XI is as big of a player as he is arguing, however. Some simple search commands are all it takes to see the difference.

The numbers I'm questioning aren't the CEO's (although the numbers are out of date now, they were at least at one time accurate)- It's this person's breakdown of those numbers. None of the alleged data he has comes from the exact same time as the CEO's announcement nor do they come directly from him (unless he can prove otherwise). All I'm asking for is proof of these numbers for each game that he is presenting as fact but without evidence. I really don't think that's much to ask, but getting that information out of him is like pulling teeth it seems. The fact that he's so unwilling to prove his own argument is one of the primary reasons I find it quesitonable.

Another random bit info, take it for what you will, is the amount of RMT spamvertisements I see in each game. In XI, I haven't seen one since I resubbed. in XIV I get several each day (including like half a dozen in the last 30 mins or so). If you can glean anything from that, since its the same Special Task Force that combats RMT in both games, it's that the RMT find XIV to be a more lucrative business. If you want proof, I'll be happy to post screenshots of my chatlogs from both games :)

You are the text book definition of a fanboy, a FFXIV fanboy. Nobody else would of accused me of "baseless attacks" in regards anything I posted, which implies you took it VERY personally. Quite how you think anyone will think you aren't is kinda funny.

Also are you really using the excuse that XIV is a huge success because they let bots, hackers and RMT run rampant? I guess WoW can't be a success then?

In my first post I pointed out that FFXIV probably has more subs than FFXI and DQX combined so quite how that is an attack is beyond me.

As I said, FFXIV probably has around 500k-600k subs (including China now), DQX probably around 300 and FFXI caps it off with around 100k.


Those numbers tend to be kept close to their chests regardless of how good or bad they are. Good, accurate information is not easy to come by because they arent often the ones to provide it (And it's not so much that they give out wrong numbers but more that they aren't given often enough).

So basically you're asserting that the CEO of a company that recently had massive losses and drastic cuts in the share prices (which lead to the last CEO quitting in disgrace) would give a speech to shareholders and the press knowingly (even though it would be incredibly easy to get upto date numbers) giving old figures (which you and others presume are much lower) just to keep them secret? As poor as many of the business decisions Square make I don't think even they would be that backward.

There are very few reasons any competent CEO would use figures this old, I can think of a few though.


100-150k subscribers for FFXI is kind of a large range for a company to have when estimating how many people pay them for a product. It would also indicate there are 6250~9375 accounts per server right now, which requires you to assume almost a 200-350% "dark account" rate of people who are paying for a service they hardly use.

On Lakshmi, a rough current population breakdown gives us:
Total: 699
In Town: 405
In areas surrounding Adoulin: ~100, only 9 people in [U] areas
Bots: 25 (at least - just counting ones I know of in Boyahda Tree and other zones)
Other: ~170, spread throughout the ~280 uncounted areas.

There are always about 500 people left online when the servers go down, so I feel it's actually pretty safe to assume about 400 people are just near-perennially afk. At JP times, we spike up to ~1100 on Lakshmi. Subtracting that same afk population, we get a total of 300+700+400 = 1400. Assuming half of the players log in every other day, we'd be up to ~2000. It still requires a 200% "dark account" rate (people who log in less than every other day) to push you up to even 6000 accounts per server. I'd be amazed if they still had that many absentminded subscribers considering how hard it is to consistently pay them for FFXI.

I think it's honestly a bit much to assume that 400 players AFK almost 24/7. That's a large number of players that would leave their computer on all day and night for no real reason isn't it? I can accept that many would goto work and leave it on to bazaar items but even then, 400 people (x16 servers) that would leave their computes on 24/7 is a bit of an over-estimation in my eyes. You also didn't count EU and just NA and JP and didn't take into account that Lakshimi is on the lower end of the population charts.

As I said, it's within reason to assume that FFXI still has 100k subscribers. That's an average of 6k overall subs per server, which given dark subs and difficulty in actually finding out how many do play regularly isn't out of the question.

[Kawar]

Square made an announcement a few days ago that FFXI, FFXIV and Dragonquest 3 combined have 1 million subscribers.

How many do you think each title has? My guess is 300k for D3, FFXI 100-200k and FFXIV about 550k

The way i look at it i do not mind as long as ffxi stays online.

[Alhanelem]

You are the text book definition of a fanboy, a FFXIV fanboy. Nobody else would of accused me of "baseless attacks" in regards anything I posted, which implies you took it VERY personally. Quite how you think anyone will think you aren't is kinda funny. Yes, anybody else would have, because thats what they were- baseless attacks, attacks without a basis. And I took it personally because you were talking to me specifically. How else was I supposed to take it? Considering you've been unwilling to prove your own case, from where I stand there's no basis for anything you've said. All it would take is a very simple task that you refuse to perform because you don't see it as your responsibility to make a case for your own arguments.



As I said, FFXIV probably has around 500k-600k subs (including China now), DQX probably around 300 and FFXI caps it off with around 100k. You're underestimating XIV and overestimating XI. DQX's numbers I don't even have anything to make a remotely educated guess on but that sounds like an awful lot for a game that's mostly only in Japan. There's also a lot of probablys in that sentence- If only you were willing to show me what you were basing those guesses on. But I forgot, you don't "babyfeed," so I guess I'll never know. One would think you'd be eager to prove how wrong you think I am.

I've asked multiple times for the argument to be proven- something that you could do simply and easily. I on the other hand have offered to provide evidence for my conclusions but you dismissed them without even allowing that. You're basically breaking every rule of a good logical argument, and you want me to accept what you say as truth.


I think it's honestly a bit much to assume that 400 players AFK almost 24/7.He might be exaggerating the number slightly but not by much. I can go to any of the 3 lower areas of jeuno by the guide stone and find more bazaaring characters than the game will display at one time in each of them. There are also a pretty large number of such players outside the moghouse and near the AH and certain home points in Audolin. I haven't tried counting them but when you factor in afk people that may be in other locations, I don't think "400" is a ridiculous number. Of course, every online game has a lot of people AFK, but FFXI's rate may be higher since being AFK can make you money.

[FrankReynolds]

I would say that probably 30 of the 60 people online in my link shell are afk at any given time. I personally have 2 characters that are logged in 24/7, so 400 might not be that far off.

[Pixela]

Yes, anybody else would have, because thats what they were- baseless attacks, attacks without a basis. And I took it personally because you were talking to me specifically. How else was I supposed to take it? Considering you've been unwilling to prove your own case, from where I stand there's no basis for anything you've said. All it would take is a very simple task that you refuse to perform because you don't see it as your responsibility to make a case for your own arguments.

No they would not, and they surely would not of used the word attacked either. You made a few comments "attacking" FFXI, nobody took offense at them as you did to this "attack" on FFXIV.


i think ffxi has a total of 100 players across all servers all of which have a buttload of mules on different accounts

that's not as big of an exaggeration as we'd like it to be.

I really don't know why you're pushing that I didn't provide links like it means something, you know I'm correct and the links are easily obtainable so you are just being childish (admittedly I was being too but only because you were being incredibly lazy). You post so many things that are either flat out wrong because you are unwilling or unable to fact check with google.

I think the only reson you had to not find the information on your own when it's easily available with google is that you thought making me post the links was a +1 to you, I see no other reason you refused to take 5 seconds to find them (you already did but this is just a back and fourth at this point).


You're underestimating XIV and overestimating XI. DQX's numbers I don't even have anything to make a remotely educated guess on but that sounds like an awful lot for a game that's mostly only in Japan. There's also a lot of probablys in that sentence- If only you were willing to show me what you were basing those guesses on. But I forgot, you don't "babyfeed," so I guess I'll never know. One would think you'd be eager to prove how wrong you think I am.

I've asked multiple times for the argument to be proven- something that you could do simply and easily. I on the other hand have offered to provide evidence for my conclusions but you dismissed them without even allowing that. You're basically breaking every rule of a good logical argument, and you want me to accept what you say as truth.

You spend a lot of time arguing and writing large posts yet don't bother to get or check any facts at all so quite how you would know how many players anything has is beyond me, it also does not surprise me that you have no idea that DQx is incredibly popular in japan (there are a few JP only titles that have large player numbers). This information is easily obtained yet you chose not to see it (or admit to it) because you think it adds some kind of weight to your argument I suppose.

If you can find me any number that shows a sub base for FFXIV that is higher than 600k I'll look at it and concede you might have a case that I'm underestimating it, maybe it's your turn to post a link?

Let's use a little common sense though, if FFXIV really has grown then it would of been forced to add more servers to handle more players. The game was struggling to handle 600k players during the first month with the servers with constant log-in queues on almost every server.

As an example though, a game that did have a large base of 1.5 million subscribers (SWTOR). It had 208 servers to be able to handle that many subscribers. Let's assume a game has 500k subscribers, how many servers would that be if it followed that player to server ratio above? Now check how many servers FFXIV has. I can see the refusal to use a calculator coming next.

Again though, the main argument that was given by the CEO (not me) was that all 3 games have around 1 million subscribers at this point in time. A CEO would not of used old numbers if new ones were significantly better now, especially not considering his audience and the state of the company.

Best case scenario for FFXIV is, FFXI 80k, DQX 300k (100k below it's highest point) which puts FFXIV at 620k Does that make you feel better instead of 500-600k?

Again as I said before, that would still make FFXI the most profitable FF title ever given the same timelines.


He might be exaggerating the number slightly but not by much. I can go to any of the 3 lower areas of jeuno by the guide stone and find more bazaaring characters than the game will display at one time in each of them. There are also a pretty large number of such players outside the moghouse and near the AH and certain home points in Audolin. I haven't tried counting them but when you factor in afk people that may be in other locations, I don't think "400" is a ridiculous number. Of course, every online game has a lot of people AFK, but FFXI's rate may be higher since being AFK can make you money.

Well the point was just because someone will afk or bazaar it does not follow they will bazaar 24/7 or between 2 prime time slots. Many players AFK or bazaar, they still log when it's time to sleep or whatever. I've played FFXI for many years and I knew very few that would afk 24/7. When they goto work or when they playing on a console maybe but not leave their pc on all night and day.

This is why it's so hard to calculate how many subscribers FFXI has just by eyeballing, the game has worldwide servers with multiple peak hours and it's really hard to give an accurate number of AFKs that would be online during all of those peaks. Unless you actually write down names and be thorough you can't just assume 400 people per server afk for massive amounts of time.

To say 400 people per server never log and then take that number from 3 prime time slots for each server is a little too harsh imo.

[Alhanelem]

you know I'm correctSorry, no, I don't know you're correct, because you haven't given me what I need to believe you're correct, and not only that you're claiming to have it but refusing to provide it. You can keep on dreaming that I believe the things you say but until you link to your evidence your words are full of hot air.

I don't know why you can't grasp the concept that a logical argument must be backed by evidence. If you don't provide evidence, your argument is fallacious.



This is why it's so hard to calculate how many subscribers FFXI has just by eyeballing, the game has worldwide servers with multiple peak hoursActually it's easier, because without one definitive peak time, it's easier to estimate an average of people online at all times of day (rather than just basing it on one time of day), since you can look at any given time and assume that, within a certain margin of error, that many people are on much of the time and not just when you looked. Plus, it's really not hard at all to just take samples at every hour of the day and come up with a fairly accurate number.

[Pixela]

Sorry, no, I don't know you're correct, because you haven't given me what I need to believe you're correct, and not only that you're claiming to have it but refusing to provide it. You can keep on dreaming that I believe the things you say but until you link to your evidence your words are full of hot air.

I don't know why you can't grasp the concept that a logical argument must be backed by evidence. If you don't provide evidence, your argument is fallacious.

Well this argument only works if the person isn't playing a childish push and pull game, so that goes out the window. If I tell you it's raining and you ask for proof, me saying "well look out the window behind you" that is still offering valid proof. I don't have to take a photo of the rain, timestamp it and bring 2 witnesses to qualify as proof. Offering enough information to very easily find it (which I did) is proof enough.



Actually it's easier, because without one definitive peak time, it's easier to estimate an average of people online at all times of day (rather than just basing it on one time of day), since you can look at any given time and assume that, within a certain margin of error, that many people are on much of the time and not just when you looked. Plus, it's really not hard at all to just take samples at every hour of the day and come up with a fairly accurate number.

What, your "logic" is genuinely baffling to me. How does that make sense at all? if you have regional servers you just go on at 5am and check player numbers then to get a really good indication of AFK player numbers, how many players would be online at 5am on a regional server? As such you can calculate AFK players much easier than a server that is active 24/7 by different regions. If you have a worldwide server (which is Euro, North and South America, Japan, Australia, the middle east). They all have different players logging on and logging off 24/7. Unless you actually listed every name at each prime time slot, add them together and then subtracted duplicates you can't say how many are afk 24/7. 400 just seems way too high to be sensible, 400 people per server don't leave their computers online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for no reason. Bazaars aren't really a good reason these days, I farm dynamis/limbus and a lot of other things and it rarely takes more than a few hours to sell everything each day.


Plus, it's really not hard at all to just take samples at every hour of the day and come up with a fairly accurate number.

For someone that can't muster enough energy to do a google search I would say that's probably incredibly hard.

[Alhanelem]

Two pages later, still no proof of your argument. I wonder how many more pages it will take.


For someone that can't muster enough energy to do a google search I would say that's probably incredibly hard. It's not hard at all. It's just not MY responsbility to prove YOUR argument. I've said this probably 200 times now. You don't seem to understand how arguments work, perhaps you should take a course on it, then you'll understand why YOU, and no one else, needs to prove YOUR arguments for them to be accepted.

Your continued refusal to do something that you yourself claim is super easy to do is evidence to me that you don't actually have any proof.

You can't make assertions in court without presenting evidence, why should I accept assertions without evidence here?


If I tell you it's raining and you ask for proof, me saying "well look out the window behind you" that is still offering valid proof.That's not the same situation as this at all. And if this were a court of law, you'd have to show the court that it's raining, not ask the defendant to do it. It's more like telling the judge to go find the evidence at the crime scene of a murder. It's not his responsibility to go fetch the evidence, the prosecution has to present it. You are the prosecution in this case. You need to open the window and show me it's raining, not ask me to do it.

And I'm not angry, by the way. I just want you to produce the evidence. You'd think i was asking you to go pull some dangerous daredevil stunt or something.

[Pixela]

It's not hard at all. It's just not MY responsbility to prove YOUR argument. I've said this probably 200 times now. You don't seem to understand how arguments work, perhaps you should take a course on it, then you'll understand why YOU, and no one else, needs to prove YOUR arguments for them to be accepted.

Your continued refusal to do something that you yourself claim is super easy to do is evidence to me that you don't actually have any proof.

You can't make assertions in court without presenting evidence, why should I accept assertions without evidence here?


Why do you keep using a court analogy? This is a silly and petty argument between us on a computer game forum. Anyone else reading that wanted to prove or disprove what was written probably has already found it so this is just you and me arguing back and fourth about information I fact checked being unreal to you until I post a link to it, even though you are more than capable of finding it with less effort than you take to write a reply to me. The truth is, if I was wrong and you knew I was wrong you would of proved me wrong long ago. You can't so this is all you have to argue about.

At this point it's just the principal of it to you and/or being stubborn. It's still funny to see how far we can take the non-argument, the bumping is nice though since my aim was for XI players to know these numbers that they may of missed.


That's not the same situation as this at all. And if this were a court of law, you'd have to show the court that it's raining, not ask the defendant to do it. It's more like telling the judge to go find the evidence at the crime scene of a murder. It's not his responsibility to go fetch the evidence, the prosecution has to present it. You are the prosecution in this case. You need to open the window and show me it's raining, not ask me to do it.

And I'm not angry, by the way. I just want you to produce the evidence. You'd think i was asking you to go pull some dangerous daredevil stunt or something.

Court analogy again, there is a difference between proving a fact to a court and 2 people arguing about nonsense on a forum. Especially when you can find the exact same information I can within minutes.

I'm not angry either, if this wasn't entertaining or serving my purpose I would of stopped arguing with you over nothing a long time ago.

Again though the facts are that all 3 Square MMO titles have less than 1 million subscribers combined (according to the CEO of Square enix last week), that you can work out bare minimum figures for each one with a fair degree of accuracy and that those numbers are around:

FFXI 100k
FFXIV 600k
DQX 300k

Whether you think those numbers are good or not is upto you, the fact of the matter though is that if not for Square and FFXIV players taking a misleading announcement (player numbers/accounts) and getting people assured that FFXIV wrongly had 2.5 to 3 million subscribers very few people would now be so dissapointed and surprised that XIV has as "few" subs as it actually does. Being honest or at least not trying to fool people is the key to how people meet facts (that they are forced to divulge) at a later date. This now defunked false argument is as silly as people asserting that the director stated he would close the game down before going f2p, that again is false but widely held belief about FFXIV.

The misleading numbers have since been taken off their website a couple of months ago, probably due to the time of releasing the facts to shareholders looming closer.

Personally I think that 600k or so subs for FFXIV is poor for many reasons, even though it was more than enough for FFXI.
Initial Budget
2nd expensive relaunch/dev cycle
companies current situation and share price
SE history of dissatisfaction with moderate successes (tomb raider/kain and lynch)
Player retention issues in all modern games compared to 12 years ago.
Having to release in more regions than FFXI to maintain those numbers.
Twice and possibly 3 times as many server stations with all the costs that go along with that.

Having said that the numbers are not awful, they just seem awful because expectations were put incredibly high. Well above what they could of ever delivered on (even with Chinese release it seems).

[PlumbGame]

There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy. I can't believe that someone would really stray away from their argument by basically calling someone a fanboy, therefore they win. I also can't believe someone would care so much to be called one. Who cares. If you are playing this game, you are technically a fanboy, or you wouldn't be playing it.

Also, how come your numbers keep getting lower. First it was over 1mil, then it was just at 1mil, now it's lower than 1mil. They actually stated that it was over 1mil, but ultimately, who cares. The advertisement for FFXIV use to say over 2.4subs, not characters either. Maybe that's not where it's at now, maybe that's lower than it's at, but that's what it said, but still, who cares.

[Alhanelem]

This is a silly and petty argument between us on a computer game forum.Well, I agree with that.
The only reason we're having this argument is you're too concerned with what you want to call "babyfeeding" when what I'm actually asking of you is to support your argument with sources. You can't convince me of anything without data and the sources of that data, and I will maintain until the end of time that it's your responsibility to prove your argument, because thats how a logical argument works. That's really all there is to it- If you don't want to prove your argument, then I can't consider what you say to be valid.

All you have to do is link me to your sources. If you don't want to do that, then you don't actually want to convince me that your "facts" and figures are accurate. Which, there's nothing wrong with that, you just have to understand that without doing that I won't consider you to be correct since I currently don't believe that you are.


Also, how come your numbers keep getting lower. First it was over 1mil, then it was just at 1mil, now it's lower than 1mil.There were two different numbers given by the CEO in two different locations at two different times. The 2014 Fiscal Year financial report for SE stated that their MMOs had "nearly 1 million" subscribers. In one of the articles linked on the first page, which has a much later date, the CEO states that they now have "over 1 million subscribers." Since this quote came after the financial report, this would suggest that their total subscriber base has increased by some amount. However, he poster that this argument has been going on with has asserted that MMOs "simply don't grow that way." and that there is no way any MMO could have more subscribers 1 year in than it had shortly after launch. He then offered his guess at how many players of that nearly or over 1 million players belong to each of SE's three MMOs. He threw some numbers around- numbers that I suspect are "accounts" not "subscribers." but so far he hasn't provided any sources for his claims.

The only site I've found that tries to keep track of how many subscribers (p2p) or active accounts (f2) each game on the market has, mmodata.net , hasn't been updated in over a year, and they didn't have any data for FFXIV or DQX at that time. Of course we don't know where their numbers come from and they could be bunk anyway, so I'm not using them, but those are the only charts I found.


There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy. I can't believe that someone would really stray away from their argument by basically calling someone a fanboy, therefore they win. I also can't believe someone would care so much to be called one. Who cares. If you are playing this game, you are technically a fanboy, or you wouldn't be playing it.The main reason someone would be offended is just that there is an implication of bias. Personally I would argue that I play and enjoy both FFXI and FFXIV and thus I'm not really biased towards one or the other. You're 100% right though, you can't just dismiss someone's opinion because you think they're a big fan.

TL;DR when you call someone a fanboy, you are probably saying so because you think their judgement is clouded by their being a fan.

[Pixela]

There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy. I can't believe that someone would really stray away from their argument by basically calling someone a fanboy, therefore they win. I also can't believe someone would care so much to be called one. Who cares. If you are playing this game, you are technically a fanboy, or you wouldn't be playing it.

Also, how come your numbers keep getting lower. First it was over 1mil, then it was just at 1mil, now it's lower than 1mil. They actually stated that it was over 1mil, but ultimately, who cares. The advertisement for FFXIV use to say over 2.4subs, not characters either. Maybe that's not where it's at now, maybe that's lower than it's at, but that's what it said, but still, who cares.

There is a big difference between a fan and a "fanboy" A fanboy will protect their object of affection if you dare say anything against it. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant to them, it becomes personal if you say anything negative.

The actual wording he used was nearly 1 million for all 3, so it's less than. Less or around both work though. Again this wasn't read from the financial reports by the media, it was a statement read out by the CEO to shareholders and the media.

Jan 02, 2015

Three major MMO titles - Final Fantasy 14: A Realm Reborn which began operation last August, Dragon Quest 10, which was launched in August 2012, and Final Fantasy 11, which has entered its thirteenth year of operation-maintain nearly 1,000,000 paying subscribers all together, and have established a solid revenue base," reads a statement from president and representative director Yosuke Matsuda.

FFXIV never had millions of subscribers, it has 2.5 million registered accounts which was said to be subscribers by some people but it was never actual subscriber numbers and they never said it was (They implied some things but they never actually said it). Registered accounts/registered players is a pretty useless figure, almost every mmo you can mention has millions of them. That, and you have to keep in mind that registered accounts/sales figures of FFXIV was bloated due to the numbers applying to not only ARR but V1 too (and free trials and some betas). It's really not a useful number unless you plan to mislead.

[Alhanelem]

It's really not a useful number unless you plan to mislead. I agree with this part (that accounts is not a useful number); but the issue I have with what you've been saying about player numbers is the 500k for FFXI, which is years ago and even then it was accounts not subscribers. That's one of the things I'm waiting for you to prove me wrong on, and the other thing would be the 300k for DQX, which I also believe is accounts not subscribers. One of the reasons for this is a lot of games in Japan only don't even sell 300k copies, so I find 300k subscribers to be a very questionable number. The game has recently expanded to South Korea if I recall correctly, but I don't think that's enough to produce 300k subscribers.

I'm searching for the original announcement about playercount that was posted on the official site to verify my own claim, but their news archive goes back to 2005 and I'm fairly sure the announcement was made before that.


it has 2.5 million registered accountsActually, while the number IS unimportant, the last number that was shown before they changed the button to just say "BUY NOW!" was 3.2 million. Since then, they've stopped showing that number though.

I just can't comperehend why you can't be bothered to back up your own argument. I'm really not asking for much here. That should send a signal to people that what you're saying should be either questioned (if they're the type to participate in an argument) or ignored (if not inclined to participate).



Again though the facts are that all 3 Square MMO titles have less than 1 million subscribers combined (according to the CEO of Square enix last week)You're actually wrong here:
"Matsuda goes on to play the importance of the company’s MMO presence in Final Fantasy XIV and Dragon Quest (http://www.ign.com/games/dragon-quest/android-20024630) X, along with Final Fantasy XI (http://www.ign.com/games/final-fantasy-xi/xbox-360-794369), which is now in its thirteenth year. All three MMOs attract over 1,000,000 paying members each month, resulting in what Masuda refers to as a “solid revenue base.”"

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2015/01/01/square-enix-annual-report-talks-ffxiv-hitman-go-tomb-raider-and-the-future

Edited with link (from the first page of this thread), because I can actually provide one, unlike you.

[PlumbGame]

There is a big difference between a fan and a "fanboy" A fanboy will protect their object of affection if you dare say anything against it. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant to them, it becomes personal if you say anything negative.

The actual wording he used was nearly 1 million for all 3, so it's less than. Less or around both work though. Again this wasn't read from the financial reports by the media, it was a statement read out by the CEO to shareholders and the media.

Jan 02, 2015


FFXIV never had millions of subscribers, it has 2.5 million registered accounts which was said to be subscribers by some people but it was never actual subscriber numbers and they never said it was (They implied some things but they never actually said it). Registered accounts/registered players is a pretty useless figure, almost every mmo you can mention has millions of them. That, and you have to keep in mind that registered accounts/sales figures of FFXIV was bloated due to the numbers applying to not only ARR but V1 too (and free trials and some betas). It's really not a useful number unless you plan to mislead.

I don't think you are listening to me. I'm not claiming how many users they had, THE FFXIV SITE USE TO SAY OVER 2.4 MILLIONS SUBS, not characters.

[Alhanelem]

I don't think you are listening to me. I'm not claiming how many users they had, THE FFXIV SITE USE TO SAY OVER 2.4 MILLIONS SUBS, not characters.Unfortunately Pixela is indeed correct on this one point; The image on the Lodedstone said "OVER X MILLION PLAYERS! BUY NOW!" (the number was changed a few times). Given that the CEO of the company said they had *cough* somewhere in the vincinity of *cough* one million subscribers to their MMOs, it is clear that "PLAYERS" was unique accounts, not subscribers. Though I dispute much of his information, since I have seen these things myself I know there is some truth in this part.

[PlumbGame]

who














cares

[Pixela]

Honestly I don't know why you're arguing to strongly that FFXI never had 500k subscribers, what it peaked at is not what it has now so it just seems a pointless thing to argue over given the point of the thead.

However I guess I'll give a little and post the link.


Accommodating players in North America, Europe and Japan, FINAL FANTASY XI is the first massively multiplayer online role-playing game capable of simultaneous multiplayer cooperation across three different platforms. Now in its sixth year of service, FINAL FANTASY XI has a robust community of 500,000 subscribers from around the world. The series continues to evolve and expand, offering newcomers and fans alike an immersive, engrossing and engaging universe to traverse, defend and explore.

http://release.square-enix.com/na/2009/03/16_01.html

[Alhanelem]

HE POSTED A LINK! OH MY GOD! CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER MASS HYSTERIA!

Interesting that the announcement came so far out. Thanks for backing up the claim, though it does call another into question, your asseriton that games never grow in subscribers past the initial launch. I'm uncertain why they would make a press release touting their number of subscribers six years out if they had more prior. The announcement made earlier in the game's lifespan had a similar number of accounts rather than subscribers, which suggests to me that the game had to have peaked somewhere between the early announcement that was on the official site and that 2009 press release.
That said I'm going off memory here since the pre-2005 news is no longer available on the official site, so I will hold back from asserting it as a fact.

This doesn't address your 300k subscribers claim (or current players guess for XI) for DQX but it is a welcome thing nonetheless. If you would mind indicating where you got that number, that would be very much appriciated.

[Pixela]

HE POSTED A LINK! OH MY GOD! CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER MASS HYSTERIA!

Interesting that the announcement came so far out. Thanks for backing up the claim, though it does call another into question, your asseriton that games never grow in subscribers past the initial launch. I'm uncertain why they would make a press release touting their number of subscribers six years out if they had more prior. The announcement made earlier in the game's lifespan had a similar number of accounts rather than subscribers, which suggests to me that the game had to have peaked somewhere between the early announcement that was on the official site and that 2009 press release.
That said I'm going off memory here since the pre-2005 news is no longer available on the official site, so I will hold back from asserting it as a fact.

This doesn't address your 300k subscribers claim (or current players guess for XI) for DQX but it is a welcome thing nonetheless. If you would mind indicating where you got that number, that would be very much appriciated.

It doesn't actually since I said modern MMO titles don't grow in subscribers year on year, all older titles started slow and built but that doesn't happen anymore because everyone rushes at them at launch and then gets bored.

FFXI had 2 things going for it, it launched before Warcraft and staggered every release with around a year break between each release.

[Alhanelem]

It doesn't actually since I said modern MMO titles don't grow in subscribers year on year, all older titles started slow and built but that doesn't happen anymore because everyone rushes at them at launch and then gets bored.That's really just an opinion / ancedotal (aka eyeballing) observation though, you don't have anything to support that. A "modern MMO" can still gain subscribers after launch if it's actually good. The real problem is a lot of the "Modern MMOs" recently have been total crap or failed to listen to their players at all fueling disinterest, thereby forcing a free to play switch which usually doesn't help (but also prevents measurement of success by number of subscribers).

Besides that, "modern MMO" is a very vague statement. Where do we draw the line? Many MMOs today derive a lot of things from World of Warcraft (many of which WoW did not invent and rather got from Everquest), but WoW came out not long after FFXI. So what's your argument? Is every MMO after WoW "Modern?" Because in my opinion, with so many later games bearing a lot of similarities to WoW, it has to be considered modern, and that game most certainly did grow (and grow, and grow) for multiple years.

It's worth noting that FFXIV has vastly more subscribers than it did when the original version launched. When you consider that, we have an (admittedly rare/never before) example of a game that started out pretty badly but became more successful later.

[FrankReynolds]

It actually says "nearly 1,000,000 paying subscribers all together" in the annual report. Not sure why the author of that article decided to embellish. http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/pdf/ar_2014_01en.pdf

[Pixela]

That's really just an opinion / ancedotal (aka eyeballing) observation though, you don't have anything to support that. A "modern MMO" can still gain subscribers after launch if it's actually good. The real problem is a lot of the "Modern MMOs" recently have been total crap or failed to listen to their players at all fueling disinterest, thereby forcing a free to play switch which usually doesn't help (but also prevents measurement of success by number of subscribers).

Besides that, "modern MMO" is a very vague statement. Where do we draw the line? Many MMOs today derive a lot of things from World of Warcraft (many of which WoW did not invent and rather got from Everquest), but WoW came out not long after FFXI. So what's your argument? Is every MMO after WoW "Modern?" Because in my opinion, with so many later games bearing a lot of similarities to WoW, it has to be considered modern, and that game most certainly did grow (and grow, and grow) for multiple years.

It's worth noting that FFXIV has vastly more subscribers than it did when the original version launched. When you consider that, we have an (admittedly rare/never before) example of a game that started out pretty badly but became more successful later.

Every MMO that has launched in the past 5 years (especially those that follow the WoW formula) has lost players from the first month and gone free to play within a couple of years. This happens for very basic reasons and it happens every time without fail.

They start big and decline.

FFXIV and ARR are different titles in real terms, it was a relaunch and really doesn't count in the way you're trying to argue.

The actual point again is that the game has not gained subs above and beyond what it had last march (even with the Chinese release it seems), because no CEO of a company in the trouble Square Enix is would knowingly give inferior numbers to share holders. What ever minor points you want to try and pursue and pick apart you can't argue that away.

[Bluestar2kx]

Every MMO that has launched in the past 5 years (especially those that follow the WoW formula) has lost players from the first month and gone free to play within a couple of years. This happens for very basic reasons and it happens every time without fail.

They start big and decline.


Those basic reasons are actually pretty big and telling reasons in the industry: they all mimic Wow. A model of get to cap fast, get all the gear fast, and you're done in a month or two.
XIV sort of follows this but isn't entirely as stale like most MMO's.

For most MMO's, populations rise and fall throughout the months, esp between patches, but on average, good MMO's, tend to gain more followers then they lose in that time frame. FFXI was like that for a long time. And with FFXIV server populations still very high and sometimes still using queues, I'm inclined to believe XIV is slowly gaining subscribers, rather then bleeding them like Rift, SWTOR, Aion, and countless others.

Just because something typically happens without fail, doesn't mean patterns can't be broken by something exceptional, they aren't set in stone like math rules are. XIV could be the exception of this decade, or it could be the same old thing. There's absolutely nothing concrete until the fiscal report in april, not even recycled words from last years report.

Why you two keep arguing about this is beyond me.
Just let go until the report comes out this year. It's that simple, then everything will be solved.

[Elemmire]

Those basic reasons are actually pretty big and telling reasons in the industry: they all mimic Wow. A model of get to cap fast, get all the gear fast, and you're done in a month or two.
XIV sort of follows this but isn't entirely as stale like most MMO's.

For most MMO's, populations rise and fall throughout the months, esp between patches, but on average, good MMO's, tend to gain more followers then they lose in that time frame. FFXI was like that for a long time. And with FFXIV server populations still very high and sometimes still using queues, I'm inclined to believe XIV is slowly gaining subscribers, rather then bleeding them like Rift, SWTOR, Aion, and countless others.

Just because something typically happens without fail, doesn't mean patterns can't be broken by something exceptional, they aren't set in stone like math rules are. XIV could be the exception of this decade, or it could be the same old thing. There's absolutely nothing concrete until the fiscal report in april, not even recycled words from last years report.

Why you two keep arguing about this is beyond me.
Just let go until the report comes out this year. It's that simple, then everything will be solved.

I'd say FFXIV entirely follows that formula and is stale. What kills most MMOs for me is the item level crap that leads to elitism bs. That kills an MMO for me more than anything :\

[Alhanelem]

I'd say FFXIV entirely follows that formula and is stale. What kills most MMOs for me is the item level crap that leads to elitism bs. That kills an MMO for me more than anything :\ If that kills the game for you, why are you still here? FFXI has all that stuff now.

You don't need item levels for elitism. The elitism was just as bad if not worse in FFXI's early days. Everyone screams for horizontal progression but the only real difference with that and standard progression is you need to stuff your inventory full of a lot more items to perform the best. The only benefit is any one single item doesn't become obsolete as quickly. So I don't really feel like one is really better than the other.

One of the things that keeps an MMO fresh for me is PvP, even if it's just a sidegame/minigame. Even if I've experienced everything in a patch, the PvP is always fun to play since it's not predictable the same way AI is. This is one thing FFXIV is doing well with Frontline. I loved ballista in FFXI, it's a true shame nobody does it anymore. If it was more pick-up-and-play-able and some other minor issues were addressed, it would have lasted a lot longer. As it stands its in dire need of an update to really be playable since it hasnt been touched in years. The new jobs in SoA can't even play in 60 cap which has always been the most popular mode because their AF is lv99.