A "Grip"-type item for H2H users?

[Dzspdref]

I don't know if this has been addressed lately, but I can assume it HAS been asked. If/When (or if ever) is there going to be made a grip-like item for people that use H2H weapons (MNK, PUP, etc...) like those using G.Sword, G.Axe, G.Katana got that equipment slot filled? As of right now, it is just a blank empty hole for all of us PUPs (and MNKs). Any thing in development for that point?

[Protey]

no. h2h has weapon on each fist.

[Mitruya]

And yet there are some nice ammo pieces that PUP can equip but can't. It'd be great if we could have that for the grip slot. Or maybe turn in our current animator to the puppet workshop like you do for attachments, and let repair oil be used straight out of our inventory like mulsums, freeing up the range/ammo slot for gear. PUP has a C+ rating in Throwing also, lol.

[Protey]

that won't happen for pup either. as i said before, h2h has weapons already in both hands. SE really should have the same icon in both slots on equipment screen; too lazy to program it i guess.

[Blah]

Well then I guess it's simple: Ask for H2H to be fixed so that it appears in both main and offhand. If we get the ol' "There be no plans" then ask for an offhand equipment of some kind. It is also weird that they don't let us have our animator and ammo (or jugs and ammo and other such things) equipped at the same time but claim that as pet jobs we are expected to multitask.

[Testyz]

I would just like to point out that 2h weapons are also in both hands...

[Protey]

I would just like to point out that 2h weapons are also in both hands...

think about how you are actually holding the weapon though. you are putting a grip onto the handle of the weapon and then you are placing your hands onto that (this is known as the "hilt").

[Selindrile]

think about how you are actually holding the weapon though. you are putting a grip onto the handle of the weapon and then you are placing your hands onto that (this is known as the "hilt").

"Handwraps" You know that peice of cloth martial artists or boxers wrap around their knuckles, could easily go over gloves and yet under H2H weapons, and be perfectly logical then by your argument.

[Protey]

"Handwraps" You know that peice of cloth martial artists or boxers wrap around their knuckles, could easily go over gloves and yet under H2H weapons, and be perfectly logical then by your argument.

edit: that is true, but then that wrap would be taking the slot away from the h2h. We'd need separate slots (4 to be exact). Otherwise we are making it so we only punch with 1 fist.

Or make it so we can synthesize a wrap onto the h2h

[Selindrile]

Or, not not do any of that, and let you mentally realize you're combining them both, like you do with the grip, you don't wield the grip in one hand and the weapon in the other either.

[Protey]

Or, not not do any of that, and let you mentally realize you're combining them both, like you do with the grip, you don't wield the grip in one hand and the weapon in the other either.

i edited my post, but it'd take 4 slots. 2 h2h weapons, 2 wraps.

[Selindrile]

These "wraps" are no more specifically in your off hand than the grip, I don't see why it would take any more slots than just mentally allowing it to happen as you do with the grip, the H2H weapon is just logically in both hands, as is your 2H, you wrap the "wraps" in your sub around each hand under the H2H, just as you attach it to the Greatsword or whatever.

There is such a thing as close enough in game terms, for Goodness sake we clearly wear several armor pieces that have belts showing, and then have a belt slot that doesn't show, we just have to get close enough logically to feel somewhat immersed, and having a H2H sub item would not detract from immersion for 99.99% of the playerbase, and would provide far more than that with a positive experience.

I realize you're probably trolling ;p but still feel the need to point it all out in case anyone takes you seriously.

[Protey]

These "wraps" are no more specifically in your off hand than the grip, I don't see why it would take any more slots than just mentally allowing it to happen as you do with the grip, the H2H weapon is just logically in both hands, as is your 2H, you wrap the "wraps" in your sub around each hand under the H2H, just as you attach it to the Greatsword or whatever.

There is such a thing as close enough in game terms, for Goodness sake we clearly wear several armor pieces that have belts showing, and then have a belt slot that doesn't show, we just have to get close enough logically to feel somewhat immersed, and having a H2H sub item would not detract from immersion for 99.99% of the playerbase, and would provide far more than that with a positive experience.

I realize you're probably trolling ;p but still feel the need to point it all out in case anyone takes you seriously.

a 2H weapon is 1 weapon. H2H is two weapons. I am not trolling. Look at your character with H2H, it clearly is two weapons.

[Malithar]

a 2H weapon is 1 weapon. H2H is two weapons. I am not trolling. Look at your character with H2H, it clearly is two weapons.

Look at your character's 5 fingers on each hand, yet we can only wear 2 rings. Look at the cloak that you're wearing, now look at your model. Where is it?! It doesn't matter that H2H is "two weapons" because it only takes up one slot. There's nothing (except for some spaghetti code and "balance concerns") stopping SE from adding grips to the offhand slot for H2H. If H2H actually took up both slots like you suggest, then sure, there'd be changes that needed to be made to make it possible. That's not the case though. SE could decide tomorrow to flip the switch and say grips can function with H2H and one handed weapons now. There'd be 0 immersion concerns unless you're just wanting to be a twat and not come to terms with what applying a grip to a handle of any weapon would consist of.

[Protey]

Look at your character's 5 fingers on each hand, yet we can only wear 2 rings. Look at the cloak that you're wearing, now look at your model. Where is it?! It doesn't matter that H2H is "two weapons" because it only takes up one slot. There's nothing (except for some spaghetti code and "balance concerns") stopping SE from adding grips to the offhand slot for H2H. If H2H actually took up both slots like you suggest, then sure, there'd be changes that needed to be made to make it possible. That's not the case though. SE could decide tomorrow to flip the switch and say grips can function with H2H and one handed weapons now. There'd be 0 immersion concerns unless you're just wanting to be a twat and not come to terms with what applying a grip to a handle of any weapon would consist of.

No, it's not being a twat, it's clearly 2 weapons and it should be taking up 2 slots. The only way H2H should be allowed to have wraps, grips, or w/e is if dual-wielding 1Hers can too.

[Selindrile]

Hand slot items are clearly two gloves. Feet slot items are clearly two boots, why are you not up in arms about them taking up two slots, one for each hand/foot? I apologize if you're honestly this obtuse, but it really comes off as trolling.

Balance and logistics wise, perhaps Mnk should've been allowed to equip a weapon on each hand, and have had H2H weapons work more like 1H weapons, but that's not the way they designed it, they're far more likely to add something in the sub slot than redesign how H2H weapons work now, honestly the real argument for doing something like this is just so that monks can get the visceral enjoyment of having another slot filled with something useful, so stop being ridiculous and argue an actual point.

Reasons to create a sub item for H2H users:
1.) Give H2H users the mental enjoyment of using that slot.
2.) Provides design opportunities for the dev team to do something new.
3.) Give H2H users a slight buff, they are actually falling behind most in the DD department, though whether it's really called for overall or not is debatable as they do have some good upsides.

Reasons against creating such an item.
1.) Inventory cost. (My inventory is at all time crisis levels.)
2.) Development priority cost. (what would the time spent on these items been spent on instead)
3.) You could make a balance argument that Mnks are still strong and therefore do not need another item, though personally I think this is debatable, and I'd argue that they could use a minor buff.

[Protey]

Hand slot items are clearly two gloves. Feet slot items are clearly two boots, why are you not up in arms about them taking up two slots, one for each hand/foot? I apologize if you're honestly this obtuse, but it really comes off as trolling.

Balance and logistics wise, perhaps Mnk should've been allowed to equip a weapon on each hand, and have had H2H weapons work more like 1H weapons, but that's not the way they designed it, they're far more likely to add something in the sub slot than redesign how H2H weapons work now, honestly the real argument for doing something like this is just so that monks can get the visceral enjoyment of having another slot filled with something useful, so stop being ridiculous and argue an actual point.

Reasons to create a sub item for H2H users:
1.) Give H2H users the mental enjoyment of using that slot.
2.) Provides design opportunities for the dev team to do something new.
3.) Give H2H users a slight buff, they are actually falling behind most in the DD department, though whether it's really called for overall or not is debatable as they do have some good upsides.

Reasons against creating such an item.
1.) Inventory cost. (My inventory is at all time crisis levels.)
2.) Development priority cost. (what would the time spent on these items been spent on instead)
3.) You could make a balance argument that Mnks are still strong and therefore do not need another item, though personally I think this is debatable, and I'd argue that they could use a minor buff.

It's not obtuse and it's not trolling. why should H2H get a wrap/grip, but not dual wielders?

edit: and yes technically SE should have put 2 hand slots and 2 feet slots. What all of your arguments sound like to me is you are trying to take advantage of poor programming on SE's part. They should have had the same icon in the main and sub slot. If for some reason they do decide to allow H2H a wrap/grip, then they better figure a way for dual wielders to have it too. Because both are swinging two weapons.

[Selindrile]

Same reason 2handers do, variability, ability to customize more about their TP set with that other slot, as 1handers can with two weapons and 2handers can with grips, and technically, H2H users are not swinging two weapons, they're swinging the same weapon at least two times, technically speaking, it's one item, much like boots, or gloves, even though the icon shows two. The graphic could consist of forty two visually distinct items, and it would still be one technically, a necklace that consists of 7 beads is not seven items, it it one.

[Protey]

Same reason 2handers do, variability, ability to customize more about their TP set with that other slot, as 1handers can with two weapons and 2handers can with grips, and technically, H2H users are not swinging two weapons, they're swinging the same weapon at least two times, technically speaking, it's one item, much like boots, or gloves, even though the icon shows two. The graphic could consist of forty two visually distinct items, and it would still be one technically, a necklace that consists of 7 beads is not seven items, it it one.

no h2h is swinging two weapons, when you are engaged against a target your left fist swings and then your right fist does. If it was one weapon, only one fist would swing. Another way we know that it is 2 weapons is that Spharai will only proc when the main hand hits, never the secondary hit.

[Selindrile]

No h2h is swinging one weapon with both hands, not unlike 2h, it is the exact same item, the left fist swings with this item, then the right fist swings with this item, each process points at the same object in the code, looking at it from a programming perspective, which is the most basic level we can get to in FFXI terms.

Also, the triple damage will not activate on double or triple attacks from the main hand either, that doesn't mean it was swung somehow in the offhand either lol, it simply means only the first attack in the attack round has the capability of proccing, it happens to always be one hand, because that hand always attacks first.

[Protey]

No h2h is swinging one weapon with both hands, not unlike 2h, it is the exact same item, the left fist swings with this item, then the right fist swings with this item, each process points at the same object in the code, looking at it from a programming perspective, which is the most basic level we can get to in FFXI terms.

by that reasoning, you are taking off your weapon from one hand, and putting it on your other hand between each swing. Which isn't a very reasonable thing.


Also, the triple damage will not activate on double or triple attacks from the main hand either, that doesn't mean it was swung somehow in the offhand either lol, it simply means only the first attack in the attack round has the capability of proccing, it happens to always be one hand, because that hand always attacks first.

Put a mandau in your offhand on THF, it will not proc.

[Selindrile]

by that reasoning, you are taking off your weapon from one hand, and putting it on your other hand between each swing. Which isn't a very reasonable thing.

By that reasoning, I realize that the process that determines my attacks references a single item regardless despite it being attributed to different hands, because it is a computer simulation, and logistically for immersion, I realize that it is considered pieces of something working in unison accomplishing a goal, a cart with two wheels is considered one cart, a weapon with two pieces can still be considered one weapon.


Put a mandau in your offhand on THF, it will not proc.

Multiattack with a Mandau in your main hand on Thf, it will not proc on any attack except the first despite it being the same hand because again, it is not your first attack of the round. Also Verethragna's a weird thing to point out because it's aftermath only makes your off-hand deal multiple damage, apparently.

Also I'll point out, to right FFXI with your vision of immersion:
1.) Seperate hand slots so you can wear a different glove on each hand.
2.) Seperate feet slots so you can wear a different shoe on each foot.
2.) Seperate H2H weapons so you can put one on each hand.

So creating two more item slots and changing the way all H2H weapons work, and probably need to make kick attacks specific to which shoe is being worn when kicking, and I'm not sure how you feel about perhaps making gloves more important to H2H damage when not wielding H2H weapon, or if each weapon attack should reference a specific glove, but then again I'm not really sure how my shoes or belt is helping my main hand attack in this scenario. But I'm sure we'd have a lot of wrongs to right!

For the OP and myself and most people in general:
1.) They create new sub items that give monks another slot to use, because people enjoy the feeling of using all their equipment slots.

Which do you think is more reasonable and likely to happen from our dev team, lol.
I also apologize if TL;DR, I sometimes enjoy ranting. :D

[FrankReynolds]

...Which isn't a very reasonable thing.


Neither is the fact that I can fit 99 arrows in the same space that only fits 1 stone. It's a game. It doesn't have to make sense. Even though, in this case it does.

[FrankReynolds]

It's not being butt hurt, it's called stop taking advantage of poor programming and trying to get something for free that doesn't belong.

There is nothing poor about the programming. They considered h2h a single slot, so they put it in one slot. attachments to h2h weapons belong just as much as any other attachment. You just don't like them.


edit: and as for your argument about footwork mode.... then add something that attaches to your foot.

okay, how about some socks that behave exactly the same way a grip would? :)

[Protey]

There is nothing poor about the programming. They considered h2h a single slot, so they put it in one slot. attachments to h2h weapons belong just as much as any other attachment. You just don't like them.

It has nothing to do with like or dislike. It has to do with what makes logical sense. It most definitely is bad programming. They put a single weapon slot for a weapon that is two weapons. H2H is holding a weapon in each of their hands. Dual Wielders hold a weapon in each of their hands. H2H shouldn't get something extra when dual wielders don't. I can see why they did it though, it's lazy programming. They would have to have put in extra rules just for H2H.

[FrankReynolds]

It has nothing to do with like or dislike. It has to do with what makes logical sense. It most definitely is bad programming. They put a single weapon slot for a weapon that is two weapons. H2H is holding a weapon in each of their hands. Dual Wielders hold a weapon in each of their hands. H2H shouldn't get something extra when dual wielders don't. I can see why they did it though, it's lazy programming. They would have to have put in extra rules just for H2H.

or..... h2h weapons are smaller and fit in the same amount of space that a single dagger, katana, axe etc. fit.

Your reasoning is ridiculous. I can carry 160 great axes if I want. I have two gloves in one slot. two boots in one slot. yet a ring takes an entire slot.

There is no real logic as to what you can carry and where other than: That is how they chose to make it.

EDIT: I got bored and decided to look it up. They did say they were thinking about adding a grip type item at one point, but I guess they never got around to it.

"We are currently looking into methods of utilizing the sub slot for hand-to-hand. We’ll take into consideration the balance of other weapons and will look to implement it at the right time. " (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11515-Job-Adjustment%EF%BD%93-Manifesto-MNK?p=166818&viewfull=1#post166818)

[Protey]

or..... h2h weapons are smaller and fit in the same amount of space that a single dagger, katana, axe etc. fit.

Your reasoning is ridiculous. I can carry 160 great axes if I want. I have two gloves in one slot. two boots in one slot. yet a ring takes an entire slot.

There is no real logic as to what you can carry and where other than: That is how they chose to make it.

you didn't pay attention to what i wrote. i didn't say anything about inventory, and i didn't say anything about the size of the weapon. so your response is ridiculous.

[FrankReynolds]

you didn't pay attention to what i wrote. i didn't say anything about inventory, and i didn't say anything about the size of the weapon. so your response is ridiculous.

I read everything you wrote. I don't need your permission to bring inventory or the size of the weapon into the discussion. They are relevant to the discussion without having to be brought up by you.

You honestly have no real argument other than personal preference. And that's fine. But it doesn't make you right.

[Protey]

I read everything you wrote. I don't need your permission to bring inventory or the size of the weapon into the discussion. They are relevant to the discussion without having to be brought up by you.

You honestly have no real argument other than personal preference. And that's fine. But it doesn't make you right.

you said my reasoning was ridiculous and brought those up in the same line. what you did is called Strawman. It is a logical argumentation fallacy.

My argument is very sound. It's that you are choosing to not look at what is right in front of your eyes. There is one icon for h2h, but you wield two weapons; just like there is one icon for feet, but you wear two sune-ate. you can't argue with that. it is a fact. you have been trying to make an attempt to argue against that, and I don't see why. has nothing to do with personal preference. it's can i see my character, yes i can, he has one weapon on one fist and another weapon on the other. you are just choosing not to see it so you can try and make an argument to get something you want.

[FrankReynolds]

... is called Strawman. It is a logical argumentation fallacy.

What do they call it when you misrepresent your own argument? Like for instance when you just really don't want them to add something, but instead you argue that two weapons must take two item slots, while completely ignoring the other pairs of items that do not take two item slots...

Calling my argument a strawman is a strawman in and of itself. INCEPTION!


My argument is very sound. It's that you are choosing to not look at what is right in front of your eyes. There is one icon for h2h, but you wield two weapons; just like there is one icon for feet, but you wear two sune-ate. you can't argue with that. it is a fact. you have been trying to make an attempt to argue against that, and I don't see why. has nothing to do with personal preference. it's can i see my character, yes i can, he has one weapon on one fist and another weapon on the other. you are just choosing not to see it so you can try and make an argument to get something you want.

I see that my character has two weapons. I also see that he has two heavy metal boots that are far larger than a dagger or a katana and certainly larger than some four finger rings, but somehow still only take one item slot. Where is the justice in that? Why aren't you demanding that they add more item slots for each boot? Could it be because you are faking this incredibly specific case of OCD regarding item slots? Could it be that you just don't want H2H jobs to have something nice?

Grips are technically a part of the weapon anyways. They shouldn't require any item slots at all. The only reason that they do is to allow for more customization in gear sets. Face it man. You have no logical argument. It's all emotion.

[Protey]

So basically, the whole game should be reprogrammed to be completely realistic but in lieu of that you'd just like to make sure that H2H players don't get a grip like item. We both know that isn't going to happen. They aren't going to completely recreate the entire gear system to satisfy your OCD. What they can easily do though is add a grip type item for h2h.

btw, attacking a person rather than their argument is a logical argumentation fallacy as well. And also, yet again, you did not pay attention to what I said. I CLEARLY in my last post quoted myself THREE TIMES saying that I wasn't opposed to H2H getting a grip like item as long as dual wielders did too. So I will say it again.... you see only what you want to see rather than what is the truth. And I never said they should recreate the game... how you take what someone says and completely twist it makes me wonder about your mental state. I just said that it was an example of poor programming. The game should have been that way in the first place. But since it isn't, we have to deal with it the way it is. Which I am fine with too.... I'm not the one trying to change the mechanics of the game... you are. And I am willing to accept the change.... but only if it is fairly distributed... which brings us to this:


Dual wielders don't get grips because A) there is no slot for said grip and adding the slots would be a big undertaking and B) because they already get better stat options than grips offer from their secondary weapon.

You're not a programmer for SE, neither am I. For all we know it would take as much effort to allow H2H to have grips as it would be to make it so dual wielders could have grips. As for B... that doesn't make sense, they wouldn't be dual wielding if you took weapon off for grip.


While we're at it though, let's roll with your idea. I'd love it if they gave h2h double the stats too. I'd love to get the stats from two h2h items instead of just one. I'm on board with your idea. Let's split up the h2h slots instead of adding grips. I want to dual wield tinhaspas.

It wouldn't make a difference though, because you already hit with both hands as if you are "dual wielding" two weapons. Think of a NIN with two Pamuns. Same thing. You only get the katana skill of that weapon in that particular hand. They don't stack.

[Catmato]

For all we know it would take as much effort to allow H2H to have grips as it would be to make it so dual wielders could have grips. How could you possibly believe that? There's an available slot for grip with H2H.

[Protey]

How could you possibly believe that? There's an available slot for grip with H2H.

because they would have to do programming to change the rules in how the slots behave. If it was something simple, they would have done it by now since they had promised to do it years ago.

[Catmato]

We are currently looking into methods of utilizing the sub slot for hand-to-hand. We’ll take into consideration the balance of other weapons and will look to implement it at the right time.


promisedI don't think you know what that word means.

[Bigrob33]

Something to think about that I hadn't seen brought up. When a dual wielding job equips two weapons, the bonus attributes effect both main and sub weapons. Just like a grip does for 2h weapons. H2h users don't get this luxury . The only exception to this rule is off-handing a R/E/M as far as I know.
I see both sides but I agree with everyone that is for a grip for h2h users.

[FrankReynolds]

btw, attacking a person rather than their argument is a logical argumentation fallacy as well.


So I will say it again.... you see only what you want to see rather than what is the truth.

...how you take what someone says and completely twist it makes me wonder about your mental state.

See what you did there? You keep trying to point out "logical fallacies" and it's just drawing attention to the ones in your arguments.


And also, yet again, you did not pay attention to what I said. I CLEARLY in my last post quoted myself THREE TIMES saying that I wasn't opposed to H2H getting a grip like item as long as dual wielders did too.

Okay, as long as dual wielders lose all the stats from their second weapon, that sounds fair. I mean you don't want them getting a bonus that no one else gets right? Seems like a waste of time just to end up with the same result though.


And I never said they should recreate the game... how you take what someone says and completely twist it makes me wonder about your mental state.

The fact that it upsets you that much when people take your arguments to their logical conclusions makes me wonder about your mental state. People are talking about adding the ability to equip items in an empty item slot that behaves in exactly the same way as other items used in the exact same empty item slot and your argument is "no, they should't do that unless they reprogram everything and create more item slots (that will often be left empty by other jobs) in order to give a bonus to jobs that don't actually need it because they already get stats from that slot".

I'm sure that you would love for people to say "oh yeah, I guess that isn't fair to not add a grip for dual wielders..." unfortunately most people realize that the reason dual wielders don't already have a grip is because:

Hur DUr! they have another weapon.


I just said that it was an example of poor programming. The game should have been that way in the first place.

Says you. You seem to have a shaky grasp of what the word "Should" means. It works exactly how they wanted it to. If they wanted h2h items to take two slots, they would have either just done that.


You're not a programmer for SE, neither am I. For all we know it would take as much effort to allow H2H to have grips as it would be to make it so dual wielders could have grips.

LMAO. Sure...


As for B... that doesn't make sense, they wouldn't be dual wielding if you took weapon off for grip.

The point was that they don't need grips because most secondary weapons already offers better stats than grips do.


It wouldn't make a difference though, because you already hit with both hands as if you are "dual wielding" two weapons. Think of a NIN with two Pamuns. Same thing. You only get the katana skill of that weapon in that particular hand. They don't stack.

And we're just pretending that DEX+7 Attack+23 Evasion+12 isn't there?

[Mystaticromance]

Grip for H2H is perfectly logical. The overwrap is a great example of how to implement a H2H (See how I didn't just say MNK/PUP???) enhancement. It also feels very naked to only have the main slot used when basically every other job can utilize the off-hand slot for something.

[Ophannus]

I just don't see why a job that dual wields nearly 180 DMG fists on each hand with a delay of like 70 or 80, needs something else in their sub slot, also Black Belt is still a top tier belt that other DDs can't compare to. Sure it may be overrated now with things like Windbuffet and such, but being able to reach half the haste cap in a single slot is pretty boss. MNK has a lot going for it and maybe it could use some other buffs here and there, but I don't think an extra gear slot and a new category of equipment solely for 2 jobs is the right answer. To be fair, grips at least accomodate more than just SAM WAR DRG DRK, mages that uses staves also benefit highly from grips. Handwraps would only benefit MNK and PUP. The ridiculousness of SAM, THF, DNC aside, MNK is still top tier. The only handwraps I would tolerate would be like HP+10, or like DEX+2. Anything reaching the level of what grips offer(which still is pretty lackluster compared to the crazy offhand weapons 1h jobs get) would be unfair since 2h weapons are ridiculously slow and the WS are awfully weak(compared to new 1h buffs, and Fudo).

[FrankReynolds]

I just don't see why a job that dual wields nearly 180 DMG fists on each hand with a delay of like 70 or 80, needs something else in their sub slot, also Black Belt is still a top tier belt that other DDs can't compare to. Sure it may be overrated now with things like Windbuffet and such, but being able to reach half the haste cap in a single slot is pretty boss. MNK has a lot going for it and maybe it could use some other buffs here and there, but I don't think an extra gear slot and a new category of equipment solely for 2 jobs is the right answer. To be fair, grips at least accomodate more than just SAM WAR DRG DRK, mages that uses staves also benefit highly from grips. Handwraps would only benefit MNK and PUP. The ridiculousness of SAM, THF, DNC aside, MNK is still top tier. The only handwraps I would tolerate would be like HP+10, or like DEX+2. Anything reaching the level of what grips offer(which still is pretty lackluster compared to the crazy offhand weapons 1h jobs get) would be unfair since 2h weapons are ridiculously slow and the WS are awfully weak(compared to new 1h buffs, and Fudo).

When's the last time you heard of someone using a black belt outside of a -PDT set? They made it so that every job can hit the haste cap almost by default. Black belt is a macro piece now if it's used at all.

[Singforu]

When's the last time you heard of someone using a black belt outside of a -PDT set? They made it so that every job can hit the haste cap almost by default. Black belt is a macro piece now if it's used at all.

salvage before can get cap haste in other slots.