dagger ws too OP?

[jbtexan]

does anybody else get POED when u go to wildskeeper reive for bayld farming and u get a bunch of thieves and dancers spamming 23-25k rundras and kill boss in less than five mins? SE, methinks, unintentionally screwed the pooch on this one. this totally ruins wkr bayld farming as 5 mins isnt nearly enuff time to cap out your bayld. doing 23k dmg against a wkr boss is just stupid and retarded, since you dont make any bayld and plus, you ruin the gameplay. by the time somebody shouts, you see the shout, get ur access ki, tele there, boss is already dead. went to 3 wkrs that started at over 90 percent. by the time i got it, got past the lag, got trusts out, boss was already dead and i wasted the fee for the ki. overpowering dagger weaponskills to this extent is one of the stupidest things that SE has ever done. i mean, dagger of all weapons. the weapon that does the least dmg. COME ON SE! pop your heads out and look at what you did. sheesh:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Jile]

SE. Thank you for making this adjustment to dagger, please don't change anything regarding dagger! Everyone who plays THF love the new dmg!

SE. Please, do make similar changes to other weapons.

<Take care>

[jbtexan]

i dont mind SE upping the damage, but they need to tone down rundras storm. no point going to a reive when u got a bunch of thfs spamming rs for that much dmg. time and a place for that kind of dmg and reives arent the time or place for a number of reasons. and i might point out that this is gonna get a lot of ppl pissed at thfs doing so too. its gonna be like back in the day when everybody would get pissed when a bst came around to level or skill.

[Tidis]

I would say THF and DNC aren't quite "spamming" 25k Rudra's, they still rely on SA (1min recast) or CF (1:30 recast) respectively to deal 25k, also right now we're in the wkr event so more people are doing wkr = boss living less time.

What I'd suggest if lag + boss health being an issue, kill the other mobs, you get credit either way and it's probably easier to churn out damage on the other mobs anyway.

[Jile]

I do understand your frustration. I also see THF being invited 95% more often to relevant content after the Rudra's update. While I do feel other damage needs brought 'up' to the standard Rudra's now sets, it would be deplorable to take this gift to THF's back as fast as they gave it.

This sounds awful but... if you want WKR to last longer, take a group of friends/ls-mates and quietly and slowly take one down instead of waiting on shouts.


its gonna be like back in the day when everybody would get pissed when a bst came around to level or skill.

BST upset people due to a lack of others interest in inviting them to their parties so BST would dominate party areas due to unsociability of others. This is a bit different as in most situations THF is much more highly desired because of this change.

I do understand your concern and I do hope they don't adjust-down this boost either.

[jbtexan]

i had already thought of that tidis. problem is, when u stack up 6 or 7 thfs on a boss, and if each one SA +RS for say, 23kish plus 10k on average for skillchain, ur looking at over 100k dmg easily for that many ppl. and thats just with SA. one min countdown, and there they go again. ergo, boss lasts about 5 mins. thats barely enuff time for one evaluation and then the bit u get at the end. im not villifying anybody using RS on wkr, its just annoying when u try to farm bayld since wkr are the best option for doing so atm aside from impuratars. not only are they limiting they rewards they get, it limits the rewards other players get. you know what i mean?

[Byrth]

I like the Dagger WS update for a few reasons:
1) I am about a week from completing all of the RME daggers.
2) It encourages skillchaining and collaboration between different DD jobs (as opposed to just using SAM on everything).
3) People let me come Dancer to stuff again.

However, current content is obviously not designed for it, as demonstrated by your WKRs and every Unity NM. I would love to have a buff like this eventually, but I think SE needed to increase monster HP before doing this.

[Ramzi]

I think you're probably exaggerating a bit here. First off, just because THF can do more dmg, doesn't mean they are invincible. If someone is dishing out 25k rudra's chances are they will be dead shortly after. If you have a large enough group for that not to matter, then chances are the boss would have died fast anyway regardless of the THF WS update. You do know SAM was able to Fudo spam all along right? They are still the most powerful job in the game.

[Alhanelem]

You can't just buff everything else to the strongest thing. Nerfs suck, but you can't fix every balance problem by making everything else stronger, that just trivializes the game.

When PUP automatons were able to do 10k damage with magic mortar back at lv 75, they nerfed that on the quick fast. This is no different if you ask me, though any fix probably wont come until the new year.

[Ramzi]

Doubt they will nerf Rudra's but I guess if enough people complain they might look at it. Without the buff from SA/TA it's not THAT OP. At 1000TP my average is probably 5-7k dmg depending on the target. Even if you try to stack it, sometimes it messes up due to monster turning, or TA missing, etc.

I will say the RS buff has completely trivialized Arch Dynamis Lord. Used to take us the full 2 hours to get TE's then kill 20 or so ADL's. Our last run we popped 22 ADL in 1:15, then farmed 2 more and killed them with 10 mins left on the clock.

[Afania]

IMO it's just wrong to buff Fudo to OP level, then buff Rudra to OP lv, what's next? Our dmg just go up infinitely without the need to increase ilv.

1h DD shouldn't be on par/beat 2h DD as well. Almost all the 1h DD job offers something more than dealing dmg, what does 2h DD offer besides DRG's angon and DRK's stun?

I vote for a nerf, yeah.

[PlumbGame]

i dont mind SE upping the damage, but they need to tone down rundras storm. no point going to a reive when u got a bunch of thfs spamming rs for that much dmg. time and a place for that kind of dmg and reives arent the time or place for a number of reasons. and i might point out that this is gonna get a lot of ppl pissed at thfs doing so too. its gonna be like back in the day when everybody would get pissed when a bst came around to level or skill.

No point in going to a reive? Are you trying to solo the reive? Because I don't know about you but when I got to a reive I try to kill it as fast as I can and gtfo with my loot.

[Zeargi]

To be truthful, the 25k Rudra's are also a combo of Gear swaps in most cases. Also 25k of dmg to what? The roots or other Mobs in that reive, because that shouldn't be a good gauge. I mean my SMN can do 5k with Retribution and 11k with Volt Strike with a level 115 Avatar(Not constantly, but between 9-11.5.)

[jbtexan]

read my earlier posts on this thread. i was talking about wildkeeper reives and bosses.

[Byrth]

WKRs are kind of a bad example because they have crap for defense and actually take extra damage at high colonization rates (which are essentially a constant now). IIRC my summoner can pump out ~10 13k Heavenly Strikes in under a minute with SP abilities and other JAs.

[Ulth]

IMO it's just wrong to buff Fudo to OP level, then buff Rudra to OP lv, what's next? Our dmg just go up infinitely without the need to increase ilv.

1h DD shouldn't be on par/beat 2h DD as well. Almost all the 1h DD job offers something more than dealing dmg, what does 2h DD offer besides DRG's angon and DRK's stun?

I vote for a nerf, yeah.

You would have a valid point if the jobs that use those weapons skills did bring something to the table other than damage. And no Treasure Hunter doesn't count. Thf's enmity control flat out doesn't work, I honestly get more use out of flash than accomplish and collaborator. As for dancer I don't know for sure but I remember seeing Bryth post something about how little steps matter when they changed the timers to 5 seconds, and he knows his dancer. Bards can use rudra's too, but they aren't dropping 25k+ weapons skills. It's almost like what makes that weapons skill good is a unique ability of thf and dnc. Also can't help but notice the lack of outrage for the buff to one handed sword weaponskills, even though you claim that one handed jobs shouldn't beat out two handed. I guess that doesn't matter for your favorite job blu.

[dasva]

Also you shouldn't be comparing ws dmgs of 1 ws at effectively 2000+ tp to other ws at 1000+ while claiming the guy doing 2000 tp ws is "spamming"

[Selindrile]

Spamming is a bad word for it, admittedly, and I'm not actually calling for a nerf, that said, Thfs _ARE_ outparsing any other similarly geared player on another job at least in pretty much every event I've been to lately.

That's not to say I'm complaining, I enjoy the positioning and timing mechanics it encourages in party play as was pointed out earlier, and Thf and more importantly Dnc one could say deserve this buff after being underdogs for so long.

[Camiie]

IMO it's just wrong to buff Fudo to OP level, then buff Rudra to OP lv, what's next? Our dmg just go up infinitely without the need to increase ilv.

1h DD shouldn't be on par/beat 2h DD as well. Almost all the 1h DD job offers something more than dealing dmg, what does 2h DD offer besides DRG's angon and DRK's stun?

I vote for a nerf, yeah.

You say 1h DD bring other things to the table, but what you're not getting is that those things must have value to matter. No party leader cares about hate control, haste samba, waltzes, or pets because none of these things help in current content. I truly wish that weren't the case, but reality is reality. Their utility wasn't being utilized so they had to be given something beneficial that mattered. Damage is surely that.

[Afania]

I guess that doesn't matter for your favorite job blu.

I like BLU, but I'd rather play a game with good job variety and balance, not a game with a few OP jobs that completely pwns all other jobs, even if those OP jobs are my favorite jobs. In the case of BLU, it's completely different from other DD, so that's job variety. Due to the versatility it has, it shouldn't outparse other DD jobs, that's balance.

Good game design and job balance > My personal job preference.


You would have a valid point if the jobs that use those weapons skills did bring something to the table other than damage. And no Treasure Hunter doesn't count.

Treasure hunter doesn't count, treasure hunter doesn't count. Everytime when we have a DD hierarchy discussion, and we talk about how useful THF are because it's used in dyna/incursion/all higher tier BC, the only reply we got was "treasure hunter doesn't count, THF dmg suck, buff THF dmg plz". I don't understand, what makes TH doesn't count?

Since THF is already used for TH(which is an undeniable fact), it wouldn't make sense if THF can parse high AND TH.


As for dancer I don't know for sure but I remember seeing Bryth post something about how little steps matter when they changed the timers to 5 seconds, and he knows his dancer.

I think you misunderstood??? If anything changing step to 5 sec recast is an improvement, not a nerf. You can reach 23% def down faster, thus it's higher avg def down(and higher pt output over all).

I haven't check spreadsheet for a while, and I don't have access to them atm, so I can't post numbers just yet.....but last time when I checked, if I remember correctly, 23% def down+ the dmg from DNC and 2 other DD> 3 DD, unless your attack is capped.

Now that DNC probably beats most of the weaker 2h DD such as WAR, which is just too OP period.


You say 1h DD bring other things to the table, but what you're not getting is that those things must have value to matter. No party leader cares about hate control, haste samba, waltzes, or pets because none of these things help in current content. I truly wish that weren't the case, but reality is reality. Their utility wasn't being utilized so they had to be given something beneficial that mattered. Damage is surely that.

No pt leader cares about hate control, but they care about TH. Again, I love how ppl purposely filter out the benefit of TH when we talk about THF, so they feel like making THF stronger than WAR is legit.

Nobody cares about haste samba and waltz, but def down from steps does matter.

Those really makes a difference, and the reality is DRK WAR suck, there are no reason to use them in an event since they're not strong enough, and they can't step like DNC, TH like THF, nor sleep/terror/cure/haste/defense down like BLU.

That is not balance, that's bad design.

[Camiie]

WAR and DRK may not be God-tier, but I've never been turned away from any current events on WAR nor seen it happen to any other WARs or DRKs. Conversely I've never seen anyone care about steps or anything else a DNC/BST/NIN brings.

BLU has been utilized yes, even before the update. I guess that means they didn't need any boosts? And yes I'll give you that THFs have been wanted for TH, but they've had to pay a huge price for that ability in the name of "balance." Now SE is finally lowering that price and people are losing their shit. I guess people want THFs to go back to the old days where they were only allowed to poke the HNM du jour once and then go hide in a corner.

[Afania]

WAR and DRK may not be God-tier, but I've never been turned away from any current events on WAR nor seen it happen to any other WARs or DRKs. Conversely I've never seen anyone care about steps or anything else a DNC/BST/NIN brings.

BLU has been utilized yes, even before the update. I guess that means they didn't need any boosts? And yes I'll give you that THFs have been wanted for TH, but they've had to pay a huge price for that ability in the name of "balance." Now SE is finally lowering that price and people are losing their shit. I guess people want THFs to go back to the old days where they were only allowed to poke the HNM du jour once and then go hide in a corner.


AFAIK ppl with DRK WAR SAM leveled, they're on SAM 100% assuming all jobs equally geared and no personal preference toward 1 specific job. Ppl with THF SAM leveled, they can play both. Personally, I haven't seen many DRK WAR in endgame event since fudo update.

The reason why nobody cares about steps is probably it's harder to find a decent DNC, and it's much easier to /shout for a SAM. That doesn't mean steps suck.

I really don't understand though, you play WAR, and you'd rather let DNC THF pwn WAR all over and still be fine with it. I'm fine with BLU being 2nd tier DD, but if I'm a WAR I wouldn't be happy with WAR being 2nd tier.

[PlumbGame]

AFAIK ppl with DRK WAR SAM leveled, they're on SAM 100% assuming all jobs equally geared and no personal preference toward 1 specific job. Ppl with THF SAM leveled, they can play both. Personally, I haven't seen many DRK WAR in endgame event since fudo update.

The reason why nobody cares about steps is probably it's harder to find a decent DNC, and it's much easier to /shout for a SAM. That doesn't mean steps suck.

I really don't understand though, you play WAR, and you'd rather let DNC THF pwn WAR all over and still be fine with it. I'm fine with BLU being 2nd tier DD, but if I'm a WAR I wouldn't be happy with WAR being 2nd tier.

But by your own arguments earlier, WAR shouldn't be buffed, because they have warcry, and that brings something beneficial to the party, so therefore they shouldn't be doing significant amounts of dmg.

Really though I think thf is probably one of the most played jobs in FFXI now and days. I don't know why they would buff it and not really other jobs right now, but that could be a reason. I'm just hoping this buff is in the right direction and other DD jobs get buffed up to equivalent levels. Realistically, every DD job should be similar on damage, even though SE doesn't want to do that.

Also, lol at BLU being 2nd tier.

[Oakrest]

Duh, THF is a DD tank - having the best treasure hunter option simply won't suffice. With all it's enmity abilities, massive native evasion and from gear, and ability to hit some of the highest WS numbers (as well as white damage via haste/weapon delay) it's clear that THF is meant to be both a DPS and tank. SE is just reminding us how stupid we are for leveling any other job!

[Olor]

You say 1h DD bring other things to the table, but what you're not getting is that those things must have value to matter. No party leader cares about hate control, haste samba, waltzes, or pets because none of these things help in current content. I truly wish that weren't the case, but reality is reality. Their utility wasn't being utilized so they had to be given something beneficial that mattered. Damage is surely that.

Amen. Seriously, I don't see why people are crying about more jobs being usable in content. If this means people feel like they can invite a thf or a dnc instead of another SAM, well then, yay, awesome, more people can play the jobs they like best.

It's funny to see people saying this reduces job diversity after watching months of either MNK MNK MNK WHM BRD SCH or SAM SAM SAM WHM BRD SCH or RNG RNG PLD WHM BRD SCH or some such... seriously.

SAM is still good. Now other jobs are good too. Why cry about it?

[Comeatmebro]

At the top end of the spectrum, with nice gear and nice buffs, SAM still beats THF and the difference is not huge. Effective use of skillchains and SA+TA can make THF the best DD in the game, poor use of skillchains or SA/TA will cause it to lag behind other equally geared DD. I see nothing wrong with this, it's a lot more effort to play THF and effectively SA/TA/Skillchain than it is to spam fudo on SAM(5 step sc is a different story, but THF isn't really in the same league for 1-DD situations). The problem is at the middle-lower end, when you're underbuffed or undergeared.

Generally, in a WKR, the mob of randoms are using trust buffs at most and likely wearing mediocre gear.. they're wsing in the 1-3k range and doing negligible white damage. Due to the nature of sneak attack, even in godawful gear with essentially no buffs a SA rudras is going to do significant and guaranteed damage. A shit THF who can effectively SA(trivial, especially with bully available) is going to do anywhere from 70% to 150% more damage than a shit SAM/MNK/whatever.

Whether it really needs to be scaled back is questionable, it could have been intended as a way for lower end players to increase their usefulness while they catch up. It's not really that much of a threat to balance if you assume everyone has 119 gear and uses swaps effectively(so it doesn't trivialize current tier content any more than it already was), but if you're looking at 117 players without swaps it seems completely absurd.

[Xantavia]

Treasure hunter doesn't count, treasure hunter doesn't count. Everytime when we have a DD hierarchy discussion, and we talk about how useful THF are because it's used in dyna/incursion/all higher tier BC, the only reply we got was "treasure hunter doesn't count, THF dmg suck, buff THF dmg plz". I don't understand, what makes TH doesn't count?

Since THF is already used for TH(which is an undeniable fact), it wouldn't make sense if THF can parse high AND TH.
The devs have always said TH is what makes thf unique, and that trait makes up for not getting any other buffs. But as time goes on, they are giving out more TH stuff to other jobs. THF's defining party role as stated by SE is becoming less important as they allow others to have it. At this point, the only reason TH would count is because a THF can raise it to a higher level, but you can still get some of the benefits without a single thf or /thf in sight.

[Ulth]

I like BLU, but I'd rather play a game with good job variety and balance, not a game with a few OP jobs that completely pwns all other jobs, even if those OP jobs are my favorite jobs. In the case of BLU, it's completely different from other DD, so that's job variety. Due to the versatility it has, it shouldn't outparse other DD jobs, that's balance.

Good game design and job balance > My personal job preference.



Treasure hunter doesn't count, treasure hunter doesn't count. Everytime when we have a DD hierarchy discussion, and we talk about how useful THF are because it's used in dyna/incursion/all higher tier BC, the only reply we got was "treasure hunter doesn't count, THF dmg suck, buff THF dmg plz". I don't understand, what makes TH doesn't count?

Since THF is already used for TH(which is an undeniable fact), it wouldn't make sense if THF can parse high AND TH.



I think you misunderstood??? If anything changing step to 5 sec recast is an improvement, not a nerf. You can reach 23% def down faster, thus it's higher avg def down(and higher pt output over all).

I haven't check spreadsheet for a while, and I don't have access to them atm, so I can't post numbers just yet.....but last time when I checked, if I remember correctly, 23% def down+ the dmg from DNC and 2 other DD> 3 DD, unless your attack is capped.

Now that DNC probably beats most of the weaker 2h DD such as WAR, which is just too OP period.



No pt leader cares about hate control, but they care about TH. Again, I love how ppl purposely filter out the benefit of TH when we talk about THF, so they feel like making THF stronger than WAR is legit.

Nobody cares about haste samba and waltz, but def down from steps does matter.

Those really makes a difference, and the reality is DRK WAR suck, there are no reason to use them in an event since they're not strong enough, and they can't step like DNC, TH like THF, nor sleep/terror/cure/haste/defense down like BLU.

That is not balance, that's bad design.

Treasure hunter doesn't count because half the time it doesn't do anything. It may help in merit fights, and incursion, but drops are guaranteed in delve, and I don't think it does anything for walk of echos either. Even then anything past TH3 matters so little that it isn't worth it. So a ranger with one bounty shot can get about the same drops as a thief all with better hate control and the safety of attacking from out of AoE range. That's why a lot of people forgo thieves in AA fights for more rangers. As for incursion there isn't such a steep cost for entering so they could just do runs faster to make up for a lack of treasure hunter. That is why Treasure Hunter doesn't matter. It doesn't do a whole heck of a lot. Don't get me wrong it is super useful if you need to farm drops from mobs, but matters little with smaller sample sizes.

Also I need to point something out for people who don't know much about playing thief.

For Rudra's, you should do something between 1000 and 1750 unstacked. If you're going to stack it, you should probably do 1750 and shouldn't feel bad about TPing a bit over waiting on timers, particularly if you're going to be able to skillchain.

If you are playing cooperatively with other players and attribute all the skillchain damage to whoever closes it, THF is the best DD in the game right now.

This right here. This is why I like playing thief. I like working as a team. Without anyone to trick attack with, or hold hate while you sneak attack thf's damage is a fraction of what it is. With people helping it's the best in the game. That's balance, and rewarding players for team work.

[Camiie]

AFAIK ppl with DRK WAR SAM leveled, they're on SAM 100% assuming all jobs equally geared and no personal preference toward 1 specific job. Ppl with THF SAM leveled, they can play both. Personally, I haven't seen many DRK WAR in endgame event since fudo update.

I have WAR and SAM leveled and geared and it's my call which I come as. My friend has DRK and was never turned away when a DD was needed either. Is SAM better? Sure. Is WAR plenty good for anything that needs a DD? It is. The same couldn't be said for the 1-hander DDs before the update and some of them still don't have a spot even now. The drop off from WAR and DRK to the 1-handers was more substantial than the drop off from SAM to WAR and DRK. And that's not even taking MNK into account.


The reason why nobody cares about steps is probably it's harder to find a decent DNC, and it's much easier to /shout for a SAM. That doesn't mean steps suck.

Oh here we go... Now you're going to tell us that there's never been a problem with DNC as a job, it's just that only 3 people in the entire world know how to play it right. /sigh If it's so hard to squeeze damage out of the job that only a select few can figure out how to do it, then don't you think that is a sign of a big problem?


I really don't understand though, you play WAR, and you'd rather let DNC THF pwn WAR all over and still be fine with it. I'm fine with BLU being 2nd tier DD, but if I'm a WAR I wouldn't be happy with WAR being 2nd tier.

Yeah you really don't understand. I don't want the DDs to be tiered at all. I don't want it to matter one bit which melee job one brings. I want my WAR and someone else's THF to be on the same level without either of us being dragged downward.

[Olor]

Yeah you really don't understand. I don't want the DDs to be tiered at all. I don't want it to matter one bit which melee job one brings. I want my WAR and someone else's THF to be on the same level without either of us being dragged downward.

Amen. Seriously this.

[dasva]

AFAIK ppl with DRK WAR SAM leveled, they're on SAM 100% assuming all jobs equally geared and no personal preference toward 1 specific job. Ppl with THF SAM leveled, they can play both. Personally, I haven't seen many DRK WAR in endgame event since fudo update.
.I would say it had more to do with the skillchain dmg update. That was an insane game changer especially since not only is sam the easiest job to get tp fast enough to keep wsing in time but it's the only job that has a ws of each of the 4 lvl 2 elements making them the only ones that can do the whole 5 stepping thing for massive dmg that can't be resisted anymore

[V-1000]

[QUOTE=jbtexan;535951]does anybody else get POED when u go to wildskeeper reive for bayld farming and u get a bunch of thieves and dancers spamming 23-25k rundras and kill boss in less than five mins? SE, methinks, unintentionally screwed the pooch on this one. this totally ruins wkr bayld farming as 5 mins isnt nearly enuff time to cap out your bayld. doing 23k dmg against a wkr boss is just stupid and retarded, since you dont make any bayld and plus, you ruin the gameplay. by the time somebody shouts, you see the shout, get ur access ki, tele there, boss is already dead. went to 3 wkrs that started at over 90 percent. by the time i got it, got past the lag, got trusts out, boss was already dead and i wasted the fee for the ki. overpowering dagger weaponskills to this extent is one of the stupidest things that SE has ever done. i mean, dagger of all weapons. the weapon that does the least dmg. COME ON SE! pop your heads out and look at what you did. sheesh:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:[/QUOTE

The problem concerning WKR is not THF or DNC doing Rudra's itself, even if you had no THF OR DNC WKR content is dependant on the number of players who show up, same effect would happen if you had max amount of players attacking the mob, mob would die just as fast. People need to stop bitching about the 1 handed weapon skill update, we are not the only jobs who got boosted we are just the only ones that can boost our ws higher using other ja, the only reason you dont see other 1 handed weapons do this damage its because they all lack abilities to boost them, THF has Sneak and trick attack not to mention their weapon skill boost on Sandung or whoever that is spelled, and the new adoulin rings that plays a huge role on ws power. I am a 119 item level DNC and the only time my ws ever reach the 20k is under Clismatic flourish and building flourish steps also play a good roll on weakening a mob down ALSO ONLY HAPPENS when we ws at 3000 TP, for this to happen using just 1 ja alone and a mere 1000 tp will not cut it, will never even reach 10K we are spending other JA and that much tp to make that happen jobs like DNC also gets skillchain bonus trait explaining your impossible to Gauge chain damage, we are not just spamming 25-30K at 1000 tp.. on regular basis i do 6k rudra when trip/crit proc 9k if we didn't use those extra ja we would not do as much damage so i think its a fair trade off…...if every ws skill 25k+ without any boost to it id agree with you but we are sacrificing stuff to boost that damage. would be unfair to nerfed that just because of WKR….all they need to do is boost the bosses hp and that fixes your issue with wkr same needs to happen for unity. not murder our only viable ws vs new content, when lowest damage weapon in the game gets a good boost to it everyone complaints but no one cares about Sam spam power….i call that bs no offense. just cause 1 ws can do that much under certain circunstances/boost it does not mean it should be killed off, so why do you wanna take from us the only ws we got that can do decent damage which we have to boost using other ja to make it that high?? how is that fair.

also ilv 119 PUP
regarding PUP yeah great job they did there, now my magic mortar is a total joke now id take wyverns 600ish breath over that ws any day hits for 350 or less on average since auto heals himself constanly when low hp, magic frames pup have lame ws we haven't even gotten another past 75 and that wasnt a nerf that was murder useless ws even when pet has low hp assuming he survives long enough and its in range to hit.

clearly you have no knowledge of either jobs and therefore its easy to complaint about it them pup pets sucks and THF/DNC's need to waste other abilities to reach that kind of power doesn't come free.

Sorry if i sounded rude, but you really need to play this jobs to understand why this is so infuriating people like you will end up ruining DNC and THF again.

WKR ins't the only way you can farm bayld either.

[Alhanelem]

average since auto heals himself constanly when low hp,Even if you do get him to use it with low HP, its not really good anymore. It was so difficult to create the perfect conditions for the uber magic mortar back in the day that I was kind of suprised that they nerfed it. The WS has been garbage ever since, so I'm not sure why you'd even try messing with it.

Anyway, Rudra's is OP, no other WS can really touch it even when you consider that you need to set it up for it to do that much damage. I can understand why you'd be all like "people like this is why we can't have nice things", but good game balance trumps a job being OP all of a sudden even after years of being mediocre at best.

[Nebo]

Anyway, Rudra's is OP, no other WS can really touch it even when you consider that you need to set it up for it to do that much damage. I can understand why you'd be all like "people like this is why we can't have nice things", but good game balance trumps a job being OP all of a sudden even after years of being mediocre at best.

Neither THF nor Rudra's is OP right now. I'm sorry but this needs to be said. For THf to get these kinds of numbers they have to hold TP, wait on ~60 second recast timers and fulfill positional requirements that are often difficult to fulfill. No other DD really has to jump through these kinds of hoops to pump out decent dps.

Unstacked and at 1000TP there is absolutely nothing OP about Rudra's Storm. The fact that SE finally made it tactically viable to hold tp, line up JA's and wait to close skillchains is something that THF desperately needed. And it fits with the job...wait for that perfect opportunity to strike and deal massive damage...lets be clear about this NO ONE IS AT THE DELAY REDUCTION CAP SPAMMING 20-30K Rudras....no one.

The Job is still well behind SAM BLU DNC etc interms of flat out DPS potential. This "Nerf Rudra's" witch hunt ignorance needs to stop. Seriously. You should all be crying NERF BLU before that happens. smh

[Ulth]

I would say it had more to do with the skillchain dmg update. That was an insane game changer especially since not only is sam the easiest job to get tp fast enough to keep wsing in time but it's the only job that has a ws of each of the 4 lvl 2 elements making them the only ones that can do the whole 5 stepping thing for massive dmg that can't be resisted anymore

Little off topic, but Rudra's has distortion, Evisceration has gravitation, Exenterator had fragmentation, and Mandalic Stab has fusion. Thf has all level 2 elements, but only time I can self skillchain is with reives and the homestead dagger. Even then it goes much better with just rudra's into rudra's, but before the update I would do rudra's > evis > rudra's.

[Afania]

But by your own arguments earlier, WAR shouldn't be buffed, because they have warcry, and that brings something beneficial to the party, so therefore they shouldn't be doing significant amounts of dmg.


The real question is, does war cry make up the gap between WAR and SAM? Yes? Invite the WAR. No? No invite for WAR.



Also, lol at BLU being 2nd tier.

BLU was definitely 2nd tier before CDC update, behind SAM, which was the 1st tier. Not sure why'd it need that much dmg when it can already do a lot more than just dmg.



At the top end of the spectrum, with nice gear and nice buffs, SAM still beats THF and the difference is not huge. Effective use of skillchains and SA+TA can make THF the best DD in the game, poor use of skillchains or SA/TA will cause it to lag behind other equally geared DD. I see nothing wrong with this

It is wrong because THF already guarantee a pt slot, while certain jobs don't.


I have WAR and SAM leveled and geared and it's my call which I come as. My friend has DRK and was never turned away when a DD was needed either. Is SAM better? Sure. Is WAR plenty good for anything that needs a DD? It is. The same couldn't be said for the 1-hander DDs before the update and some of them still don't have a spot even now.

Personal experience, that has nothing to do with job balance. I've joined incursion/delve pt on BLU before the update, my THF friend have joined delve/incursion pt before the update. We still do more dmg than 95% of PUG SAM.

If you want to use personal experience such as "I got invite np, thus I don't care if THF DNC is competing for the pt slot", I can do the same....I got invite np before the update, thus BLU and THF were just fine.



Yeah you really don't understand. I don't want the DDs to be tiered at all. I don't want it to matter one bit which melee job one brings. I want my WAR and someone else's THF to be on the same level without either of us being dragged downward.

If THF can do exactly the same dmg as WAR, I'd just invite a THF instead of WAR to incursion and delve. More airlixir without sacrificing the kill speed, why not.

You're the one that really don't understand, unless SE disable TH, it's simply not possible to accomplish true job balance. We're still going to pick DDs, in this case we're going to pick a DD that can do top dmg AND give more drops.

[Nebo]

If THF can do exactly the same dmg as WAR, I'd just invite a THF instead of WAR to incursion and delve. More airlixir without sacrificing the kill speed, why not.

You're the one that really don't understand, unless SE disable TH, it's simply not possible to accomplish true job balance. We're still going to pick DDs, in this case we're going to pick a DD that can do top dmg AND give more drops.

If THF can do similar dmage as WAR, you have the option to invite your friend, that actually enjoys playing a job instead of forcing him to go SAM/WAR/MNK/BRD/WHM or GTFO.

If its not a DPS crutch, he can come what he likes. You don't actually need a THF for TH and you are overselling the value of Main THF TH here by quite a lot...especially beyond TH2..which every job can get without sub and jobs like RNG can bring with bounty shot. And even if what you are saying here was a valid concern (hint: its not)...you wouldn't stack THFs for drops. You only need one for TH

The real point is this: If a THF is at lolDPS status, then its not an option. It's not a job. Its 3 pieces of gear. Now your friend CANNOT come THF to this event because TH mules come out.

[Afania]

If THF can do similar dmage as WAR, you have the option to invite your friend, that actually enjoys playing a job instead of forcing him to go SAM/WAR/MNK/BRD/WHM or GTFO.

If its not a DPS crutch, he can come what he likes. You don't actually need a THF for TH and you are overselling the value of Main THF TH here by quite a lot...especially beyond TH2..which every job can get without sub and jobs like RNG can bring with bounty shot. And even what you are saying here was a valid concern...you wouldn;t stack THFs for drops. You only need one for TH

The real point is this: If a THF is at lolDPS status, then its not an option. It's not a job. Its 3 pieces of gear. Now your friend CANNOT come THF to this event because TH mules come out.

THF was still a viable DD before this update, and TH is a nice bonus that worth the sacrifice of some DPS. I've used THF in none yorcia delve and I didn't notice a huge difference between a THF and a none SAM DD.

With this update there are no reason to use a none SAM DD over THF anymore. Even before the update it wasn't a 3 pieces of gear job.



If THF can do similar dmage as WAR, you have the option to invite your friend, that actually enjoys playing a job instead of forcing him to go SAM/WAR/MNK/BRD/WHM or GTFO.



You get it all wrong, if a THF can do same dmg as WAR, anyone with THF and WAR equally geared would have to play THF, unless the target resists piercing or unless that person has personal preference toward 1 specific job. Nothing has changed.

Further more, according to what Comeatmebro just said, dagger jobs > WAR DRK now. Balance.

[Afania]

Amen. Seriously, I don't see why people are crying about more jobs being usable in content. If this means people feel like they can invite a thf or a dnc instead of another SAM, well then, yay, awesome, more people can play the jobs they like best.

It's funny to see people saying this reduces job diversity after watching months of either MNK MNK MNK WHM BRD SCH or SAM SAM SAM WHM BRD SCH or RNG RNG PLD WHM BRD SCH or some such... seriously.

SAM is still good. Now other jobs are good too. Why cry about it?

I'm fine with ppl invite THF DNC instead of another SAM. I'm not fine with jobs that's designed to be DD, such as WAR DRK falls behind them.

[Nebo]

I'm fine with ppl invite THF DNC instead of another SAM. I'm not fine with jobs that's designed to be DD, such as WAR DRK falls behind them.

There's part of your problem there. THF and DNC are DD jobs. If you really want to get technical about it, WAR was "designed" to be a tank. Start the game with sword and shield, got JA's like provoke and defender.

THF, on the other hand, was the best DD in the game at release, for quite the same reason it's strong now.

That whole argument of "X job wasn't designed to be a DD" doesnt have any merit. DNC CAN throw out cures with TP but it cannot realistically main heal a party at a high level. It has a side utility in that regard. Just like DRK has Side utility in Black Magic, unique WS. WAR has Tank JA's, and Enfeebling WS, mastery over many weapon types etc.

[Nebo]

You get it all wrong, if a THF can do same dmg as WAR, anyone with THF and WAR equally geared would have to play THF, unless the target resists piercing or unless that person has personal preference toward 1 specific job. Nothing has changed.

You are the one getting it all wrong lol. There is no reason to force anyone to come THF. You don't need a THF at all to get meaningful TH levels. If your group leader doesnt understand how useless high TH levels are, you don't need more than one THF to get THF main level TH.

This is also glancing over all the events where TH is not relevant...and the only other thing of value a THF can possibly bring is damage.

I don't understand. Are you saying you only ever bring one DD to events? Or that One hand jobs getting a DPS boost that they desperately needed somehow invalidates 2 Hander DD?

[Comeatmebro]

directly multiplying your result, even at a minimal level, is far from useless

as much as idiots love to quote 'sandung < atoyac, you lose a greater fraction of your damage than the increase to your drops' and the ilk, there are much less easily measurable benefits available(because you most likely arent spamming that mission bc back to back with capped merits, you're doing one run with the people you shouted for, a miniscule chance at an extra drop can provide more benefit than finishing 3 seconds sooner)

but when there's no sacrifice, afania is right, there's no reason to choose a comparable DD without TH..

[Vinedrai]

I don't understand why most people are so adamant against DDs being able to dish out identical amounts of damage. In the worst case scenario, one or two jobs will still have very slightly more potential in a given situation than the rest and will be prioritized. How is that any different than the current situation in the end? On the bright side however, people would get to enjoy more jobs. I am afraid that the dev team isn't capable of achieving that, considering their current policy of "let's dish out some ridiculous buffs and hope people relate", but why bash people who wish for that?

Edit: They were never good at job balancing, forcing players to go with the most foolproof setups to save time and resources. They chose the easy route and basically told players to deal with it, instead of prioritizing job balance and encouraging them to try out different setups. I know it isn't an easy task, there are too many jobs etc. but who would rather see, for example, chocobo racing updates while one job shits all over the rest.

[Nebo]

directly multiplying your result, even at a minimal level, is far from useless

as much as idiots love to quote 'sandung < atoyac, you lose a greater fraction of your damage than the increase to your drops' and the ilk, there are much less easily measurable benefits available(because you most likely arent spamming that mission bc back to back with capped merits, you're doing one run with the people you shouted for, a miniscule chance at an extra drop can provide more benefit than finishing 3 seconds sooner)

but when there's no sacrifice, afania is right, there's no reason to choose a comparable DD without TH..


People say Atoyac > Sandung A: Becuase it is true lol, and B because you can cap gear TH witohut using a dagger at all. There is literally no good reason to use a Sandung once you have TH gear.

And the scenario you and Afnia are describing does not exist. The delusion now that THF & DNC > all DD's is wrong. The delusion that THF's are crapping out 30K Rudra's non stop is wrong. The delusion that people will replace all DD's in a party with a THF to "cap TH" is ludicrous.

The plain fact is daggers got a DPS buff becuase they needed one. The one thing I will agree with is that there is less of a reason to bring another DD over a THF ...or vice versa. The fact that there is no reason NOT to bring a THF in a dps slot is the entire point of all this. You seem to think that is a bad thing. You are mistaken.

You have the option to invite whichever DD responds to your shout now. You have more viable DD options today than you did before the update. If you are a group leader this is good news. And if you are getting responses for DD shouts saying "o/ WAR" and your response to that is "Nah bro I'm stacking THF"...you're an idiot.

[Alhanelem]

I don't understand why most people are so adamant against DDs being able to dish out identical amounts of damage. In the worst case scenario, one or two jobs will still have very slightly more potential in a given situation than the rest and will be prioritized. How is that any different than the current situation in the end? On the bright side however, people would get to enjoy more jobs. I am afraid that the dev team isn't capable of achieving that, considering their current policy of "let's dish out some ridiculous buffs and hope people relate", but why bash people who wish for that?

Edit: They were never good at job balancing, forcing players to go with the most foolproof setups to save time and resources. They chose the easy route and basically told players to deal with it, instead of prioritizing job balance and encouraging them to try out different setups. I know it isn't an easy task, there are too many jobs etc. but who would rather see, for example, chocobo racing updates while one job shits all over the rest.
League of legends has like 150+ characters and that game is better balanced than this.

[PlumbGame]

I don't understand why most people are so adamant against DDs being able to dish out identical amounts of damage. In the worst case scenario, one or two jobs will still have very slightly more potential in a given situation than the rest and will be prioritized. How is that any different than the current situation in the end? On the bright side however, people would get to enjoy more jobs. I am afraid that the dev team isn't capable of achieving that, considering their current policy of "let's dish out some ridiculous buffs and hope people relate", but why bash people who wish for that?

Edit: They were never good at job balancing, forcing players to go with the most foolproof setups to save time and resources. They chose the easy route and basically told players to deal with it, instead of prioritizing job balance and encouraging them to try out different setups. I know it isn't an easy task, there are too many jobs etc. but who would rather see, for example, chocobo racing updates while one job shits all over the rest.

This basically. Back in the days I found the "inbalance" was ok imo, because you didn't have this content scaling etc, that made people only want to bring 6 people, but 6 of the best jobs, but also because of the design of the game then, every job seemed to have use in some situation. The direction of the game though I feel has changed that and I feel every job should be balance equally, which I'm hoping this last update is an indication of that direction they are going by doing so.

[mekia]

THF and DNC are now equal with other DD's. I actually see THF's and DNC's do events now and not just SAM SAM SAM MNK. Very good update which thfs needed since 2004.

[Afania]

THF and DNC are now equal with other DD's. I actually see THF's and DNC's do events now and not just SAM SAM SAM MNK. Very good update which thfs needed since 2004.

Of course THF, BLU and DNC are happy, of course WAR and DRK(the real DDs) aren't. IMO that's just wrong. Making certain jobs OP so they get invite is not the same as balance. Making every job has a use is the real balance. By making THF DNC BLU OP isn't going to accomplish that goal.



This basically. Back in the days I found the "inbalance" was ok imo, because you didn't have this content scaling etc, that made people only want to bring 6 people, but 6 of the best jobs, but also because of the design of the game then, every job seemed to have use in some situation. The direction of the game though I feel has changed that and I feel every job should be balance equally, which I'm hoping this last update is an indication of that direction they are going by doing so.


This last update didn't achieve job balance, just because THF DNC BLU get invite because they deal more dmg than WAR and DRK, doesn't mean it's balanced.


Or that One hand jobs getting a DPS boost that they desperately needed somehow invalidates 2 Hander DD?

Yes, unless you want to play "I get invite on WAR because I don't care about my dmg" card as well.

[Camiie]

As a WAR I'm happy. Did a Tenzen fight the other day. My friend went THF and I went WAR/NIN using Axe/Sword. I parsed right behind her. Now I'm sure some will pop on here and start lobbing insults about us personally or our gear or the content we chose to do. Anyone who wants to do so can just go ahead and f--- themselves. The point is we both came on the jobs we wanted to come on, we had fun, and we came real close to the record. Is that not how the game is supposed to work?

[Nebo]

Of course THF, BLU and DNC are happy, of course WAR and DRK(the real DDs) aren't.

lol Afania, get over yourself. THF DNC BLU ARE DD jobs. If you want to argue that WAR and DRK are behind the eight ball now, fine. They've been massively behind SAM for a long time now also.

There is so much wrong in most of your posts....I'm just done arguing with you. It's like trying to convince a brick wall to magically transform into a toaster...using only your words.

Enjoying blissful ignorance.

[Afania]

lol Afania, get over yourself. THF DNC BLU ARE DD jobs. If you want to argue that WAR and DRK are behind the eight ball now, fine. They've been massively behind SAM for a long time now also.


And now they're behind THF DNC BLU. I don't understand why you think THF DNC BLU parse top is right, WAR DRK doesn't parse top isn't. WAR and DRKs are DD jobs as well. But the only argument you had was "WAR DRK've been behind SAM for a long time, just let them be."


As a WAR I'm happy. Did a Tenzen fight the other day. My friend went THF and I went WAR/NIN using Axe/Sword. I parsed right behind her. Now I'm sure some will pop on here and start lobbing insults about us personally or our gear or the content we chose to do. Anyone who wants to do so can just go ahead and f--- themselves. The point is we both came on the jobs we wanted to come on, we had fun, and we came real close to the record. Is that not how the game is supposed to work?

How you have fun and how you play your job wasn't the point of this discussion though. You can play the DD RDM, DD BRD, DD GEO or DD WHM if you have fun and want to. I don't think anyone would care to stop you from playing DD X jobs.

I'm saying that WAR should parse higher than DNC THF BLU, not the other way around. Whether you get invite or not on WAR or how you have fun on WAR was not the point. You kept playing the personal experience card because your friend accepts a DD that does less dmg, that doesn't apply to everyone. We all want to play the job we want to play, and the fact is I haven't seen one single WAR DRK in endgame for months, most of my LS mate that used to play WAR DRK already bandwagon SAM since fudo update and now they bandwagon THF, and they still don't play WAR and DRK.

[Afania]

There's part of your problem there. THF and DNC are DD jobs. If you really want to get technical about it, WAR was "designed" to be a tank. Start the game with sword and shield, got JA's like provoke and defender.

THF, on the other hand, was the best DD in the game at release, for quite the same reason it's strong now.

That whole argument of "X job wasn't designed to be a DD" doesnt have any merit. DNC CAN throw out cures with TP but it cannot realistically main heal a party at a high level. It has a side utility in that regard. Just like DRK has Side utility in Black Magic, unique WS. WAR has Tank JA's, and Enfeebling WS, mastery over many weapon types etc.

The point is that WAR can't really tank in endgame, enfeebling doesn't land very well AFAIK.

But TH and steps works just fine in endgame. I agree that waltz and enmity control are not useful, but TH and steps still makes a difference.

If they make WAR tank viable in endgame, at least WAR would have a legit reason to do less dmg, but it doesn't.

If they want to make DNC THF top DD, fine. Just remove steps and TH, for the sake of job balance.

[Byrth]

I have a pretty well geared DNC and have gotten to go DNC to party content only a handful of times in the last two years. The worst part is that the few times I did go DNC, the party would have been better off if I was on another job. Even now I'm only able to make a marginal argument for DNC over melee-BRD, but at least I'm finally able to make that argument.

As far as DNC goes, you're dramatically overstating the importance and viability of Steps. They're great in a subsection of content where fight times are long, the monsters have very high defense, and you can stack them with other forms of defense down. The rub is that any job can sub DNC and provide steps (like a melee Bard), so you're not really talking about "steps" as much as "steps level 6-10." Steps Level 6-10 are only viable in even longer fights and only matter when the monsters have even higher defense. Basically, it was perfectly reasonable to not want a DNC in your party for the vast majority of content back when we weren't very competitive as DDs.

As far as TH goes, I did go THF much more often than DNC over the last 2 years, but I rarely asked for THFs when leading groups.

[dasva]

Even as far as defense goes you have other option which while in different slots add up to enough that steps shouldn't matter. I mean geo + drg + light shotted dia is already -95% def. I doubt there is any nm in the game that you'd need more def down and even if you did /dnc can take you all the way to 100%

[zataz]

not that i really care about what any of u think i will say my rdm is loving this update >.>

[Afania]

I have a pretty well geared DNC and have gotten to go DNC to party content only a handful of times in the last two years. The worst part is that the few times I did go DNC, the party would have been better off if I was on another job. Even now I'm only able to make a marginal argument for DNC over melee-BRD, but at least I'm finally able to make that argument.

As far as DNC goes, you're dramatically overstating the importance and viability of Steps. They're great in a subsection of content where fight times are long, the monsters have very high defense, and you can stack them with other forms of defense down. The rub is that any job can sub DNC and provide steps (like a melee Bard), so you're not really talking about "steps" as much as "steps level 6-10." Steps Level 6-10 are only viable in even longer fights and only matter when the monsters have even higher defense. Basically, it was perfectly reasonable to not want a DNC in your party for the vast majority of content back when we weren't very competitive as DDs.

As far as TH goes, I did go THF much more often than DNC over the last 2 years, but I rarely asked for THFs when leading groups.

You're comparing DNC v.s BRD in terms of usefulness, if that's the case almost all of DD aren't as useful as BRD. Many well geared SAM in my LS has to play BRD 95% of the time, including the ones with Koga. BRD/DNC also isn't a standard pt setup for most of the pt on my server, unless your WHM can cover every required support alone. If you want to compare the usefulness of DD jobs, why don't you compare with WAR.

IMO higher tier BC and incursion NM lasts long enough to worth the use of steps.

I think it's ok for a DNC to get a dmg boost, but IMO it's a bit too strong atm. Now SE has to buff every none SAM DD for them to catch up, which seems like a nightmare because we wouldn't know which job getting buff gonna be even more OP than current SAM.


Even as far as defense goes you have other option which while in different slots add up to enough that steps shouldn't matter. I mean geo + drg + light shotted dia is already -95% def. I doubt there is any nm in the game that you'd need more def down and even if you did /dnc can take you all the way to 100%

If you want to build your pt that way and somehow let the fight end before angon wear, of course you can argue that steps aren't useful. How often do you see DRG GEO COR all in 1 pt though.

[Atomic_Skull]

2H being ranked lower than 1H damage is just the direction that SE has decided to take with the game. If you don't like playing SAM or WAR nobody is stopping you from playing THF or DNC.

Hey wait a minute that sounds awfully familiar now doesn't it?

[Afania]

2H being ranked lower than 1H damage is just the direction that SE has decided to take with the game. If you don't like playing SAM or WAR nobody is stopping you from playing THF or DNC.

Hey wait a minute that sounds awfully familiar now doesn't it?


I don't play SAM, WAR, THF nor DNC. I'm just tired of our WS number gets bigger each update and every NM takes less and less time to die.

[FrankReynolds]

I don't play SAM, WAR, THF nor DNC. I'm just tired of our WS number gets bigger each update and every NM takes less and less time to die.

That's how the game has worked since day 1. Hard content gets easier over time. Then they release new hard content. You should have quit 10 years ago if this was ruining the game for you.

All your other arguments basically just boil down to wanting 1 handed jobs to suck because in your head 2 handers are better.

[Afania]

That's how the game has worked since day 1. Hard content gets easier over time. Then they release new hard content. You should have quit 10 years ago if this was ruining the game for you.



Hard content gets easier in every MMO....but only as ilv goes up or better gear release. In this game hard content gets much easier without getting higher ilv.




All your other arguments basically just boil down to wanting 1 handed jobs to suck because in your head 2 handers are better.

If you bother to read the discussion, you'd know that isn't the case at all. 1h jobs don't suck and they don't need to be the best DD in this game.

[Atomic_Skull]

If you bother to read the discussion, you'd know that isn't the case at all. 1h jobs don't suck and they don't need to be the best DD in this game.

I'm going to say the same thing that people have been telling me for 10 years when I complained that THF needed more damage. Play a 1H job if you hate 2H jobs that much.

And I won't lie after 10 years of THF being the butt monkey of FFXI 2H tears are delicious.

[dasva]

If you want to build your pt that way and somehow let the fight end before angon wear, of course you can argue that steps aren't useful. How often do you see DRG GEO COR all in 1 pt though.

Well if you want to build your party around a dnc and let the fight drag on long enough to get more than 5 steps on then of course you can argue steps are useful. How often do you see a dnc in any party? :p

Also the moves I talked about were debuffs they don't have to be in any pt just on the same mob. You also don't need them all that was just going fully loaded. In reality the -70% you can get just from geo and cor both highly used support jobs that you do see in the same pt fairly often should bring any nms def down enough for everyone to cap... and guess what that cor or geo can /dnc and get in there and add another 13% if necessary.

[Alhanelem]

I'm going to say the same thing that people have been telling me for 10 years when I complained that THF needed more damage. Play a 1H job if you hate 2H jobs that much.

And I won't lie after 10 years of THF being the butt monkey of FFXI 2H tears are delicious.
No job should be able to do 40-50k in one shot, whether it's THF or any other, and whether or not they've sucked for however long.

PUP had a one trick pony ability just like that and it got nerfed to hell, so I expect the same will happen here.

[PlumbGame]

No job should be able to do 40-50k in one shot, whether it's THF or any other, and whether or not they've sucked for however long.

PUP had a one trick pony ability just like that and it got nerfed to hell, so I expect the same will happen here.

What content is a THF doing 40-50k that doesn't have some sort of special circumstance? Thfs are not running around doing 50k to everything they see. Sorry.

[Malithar]

No job should be able to do 40-50k in one shot, whether it's THF or any other, and whether or not they've sucked for however long.

http://i.imgur.com/UnxoKWp.png

That's a Geo. Yeah, sure, retarded lengths were taken, 3000 TP, Bolster, Malaise, Acumen, and used while it was casting. More for the lawls. :P

The design of Thf, and rogue type jobs as a whole in most games, has always been burst damage. They attack fast, though typically for low damage, then then unleash Back Stabs, Ambushes, Sneak Attacks, combos, etc. You have to stop thinking of these instances in the sense of "omg 30-50k damage?!? OP!!" and look at how things have progressed. Some boss type NMs have 1+ million HP, properly executed SCs can do 20-50k+ themselves (though Sam is typically the only job capable/given credit of being capable of this), and perhaps largest of all, the difference between buffed DDs and unbuffed DDs. SE specifically said these changes were going into place to make 1 handed DDs competitive when they are poorly buffed. While I wouldn't advocate for it in game, I'd be interested in seeing spread sheet numbers of how Thf compares to other DDs when buffs are light/non-existent.

It's not so much that these instances are over powering, but rather that's the direction the game is going. All of this content is being made easy with these updates, jobs are being boosted to unprecedented degrees. Whether that's to make way for a new "easy mode" version of the game, or to give us these "fun" damage numbers only to re-balance us around them in the future is still to be seen.

WoW went through something very similar over the years. This last update, they "nerfed" everything, almost like starting over. I don't play so I don't know the details, but they felt that players doing 500k damage in a single attack was meaningless since you stopped paying attention to the numbers past the x00,000, the rest of the 0s were meaningless. Similar to that, when a character's HP was represented in the hundreds of thousands, there was a lot of numbers that didn't matter. So they reset everyone's stats (numbers) to a new meaningful number, and rebalanced around it. Maybe you logged on one day to find you had 15k HP instead of 500k HP, but you were no longer getting hit for 300k either, but maybe 6-7k. Maybe your Fireball now did 10k damage instead of 400k damage, but trash mobs still died in two of them, etc.

These numbers are a representation of power creep though, rather than singular instances of a job being broken. Maybe we'll all be pushing out total DPS like this in the not so distant future, but NMs will regularly have 5+ mil HP and such. I don't really mind, the game has been a sandbox MMO for a good long while now. We'll always have situations where job x, WS y, gear z is considered OP by the player base.

[Afania]

What content is a THF doing 40-50k that doesn't have some sort of special circumstance? Thfs are not running around doing 50k to everything they see. Sorry.


They're not pulling out 40k~50k every WS, but I've seen rudra did 99999 SC. Reset SA TA, do that twice, not a lot of NM can survive that.



http://i.imgur.com/UnxoKWp.png

That's a Geo. Yeah, sure, retarded lengths were taken, 3000 TP, Bolster, Malaise, Acumen, and used while it was casting. More for the lawls. :P

The design of Thf, and rogue type jobs as a whole in most games, has always been burst damage. They attack fast, though typically for low damage, then then unleash Back Stabs, Ambushes, Sneak Attacks, combos, etc. You have to stop thinking of these instances in the sense of "omg 30-50k damage?!? OP!!" and look at how things have progressed. Some boss type NMs have 1+ million HP, properly executed SCs can do 20-50k+ themselves (though Sam is typically the only job capable/given credit of being capable of this), and perhaps largest of all, the difference between buffed DDs and unbuffed DDs. SE specifically said these changes were going into place to make 1 handed DDs competitive when they are poorly buffed. While I wouldn't advocate for it in game, I'd be interested in seeing spread sheet numbers of how Thf compares to other DDs when buffs are light/non-existent.

It's not so much that these instances are over powering, but rather that's the direction the game is going. All of this content is being made easy with these updates, jobs are being boosted to unprecedented degrees. Whether that's to make way for a new "easy mode" version of the game, or to give us these "fun" damage numbers only to re-balance us around them in the future is still to be seen.

WoW went through something very similar over the years. This last update, they "nerfed" everything, almost like starting over. I don't play so I don't know the details, but they felt that players doing 500k damage in a single attack was meaningless since you stopped paying attention to the numbers past the x00,000, the rest of the 0s were meaningless. Similar to that, when a character's HP was represented in the hundreds of thousands, there was a lot of numbers that didn't matter. So they reset everyone's stats (numbers) to a new meaningful number, and rebalanced around it. Maybe you logged on one day to find you had 15k HP instead of 500k HP, but you were no longer getting hit for 300k either, but maybe 6-7k. Maybe your Fireball now did 10k damage instead of 400k damage, but trash mobs still died in two of them, etc.

These numbers are a representation of power creep though, rather than singular instances of a job being broken. Maybe we'll all be pushing out total DPS like this in the not so distant future, but NMs will regularly have 5+ mil HP and such. I don't really mind, the game has been a sandbox MMO for a good long while now. We'll always have situations where job x, WS y, gear z is considered OP by the player base.

This game isn't wow, the HP/dmg didn't have drastic change for past 10 years, except abyssea era and SoA, and most of the low lv contents are relevant for 10 years for this reason. I won't feel like FFXI is FFXI anymore if we all running in 10k HP doing 50k dmg every WS, and 1 shot everything in older content.

[Malithar]

This game isn't wow, the HP/dmg didn't have drastic change for past 10 years, except abyssea era and SoA, and most of the low lv contents are relevant for 10 years for this reason. I won't feel like FFXI is FFXI anymore if we all running in 10k HP doing 50k dmg every WS, and 1 shot everything in older content.

I'm not comparing it to WoW, just saying the situation they find themselves in is one that WoW just recently went through to an extreme level. That's great that it won't "feel like FFXI" to you, but that's what we're heading for. Throwing on the nostalgia-goggles won't exactly help. Hell, I'm pretty sure I've seen you say the exact same thing to people on FFXIAH or here, that the game has changed, different jobs are capable, new strategies emerged, blahblah. Times change, and for better or worse, that's the direction they're taking the game.

[Byrth]

Rudra's can do 40-50k damage at 3000 TP with SA or TA and good gear + defense down on the monster. It may also require Vajra.

Having one or two melee make a multi-step Darkness skillchain (closed by THF) is currently a good way to do damage. The 99,999 nature of the damage is due to a "new" multiplier that SE added during the last patch. Here's a more thorough explanation: http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Skillchain#Skillchain_Damage

Basically, you randomly get up to a 1.5x multiplier when you finish the skillchain. So sometimes you'll see freak high skillchains (you got the multiplier) and sometimes not. It's possible that we could force this multiplier if we investigated it more (perhaps by using threnodies and Ninjutsu), but no one has done it yet AFAIK.

[Afania]

I'm not comparing it to WoW, just saying the situation they find themselves in is one that WoW just recently went through to an extreme level. That's great that it won't "feel like FFXI" to you, but that's what we're heading for. Throwing on the nostalgia-goggles won't exactly help. Hell, I'm pretty sure I've seen you say the exact same thing to people on FFXIAH or here, that the game has changed, different jobs are capable, new strategies emerged, blahblah. Times change, and for better or worse, that's the direction they're taking the game.

I'm fine with SE taking the game to a different direction, as long as it has a direction. Atm it feels like SE just randomly buff underdog jobs to OP lv to please ppl with those jobs. What is the role of DNC? Shouldn't it be a support DD that does more dmg with steps+ dmg from itself? If that's their direction, make the buff or other support aspect of the job more useful, not buff the dmg and make it stronger than DRK WAR.

If SE wants to make X job solo job, then make that job very good at solo, and give them some content that shines. If SE wants to make Y job support DD hybrid, then don't turn that job into a DD job.

Now it's like: X job is good at solo so it doesn't get invite in group content, Y job is a support DD hybrid so it doesn't get invite when there's support in pt, let's make every job in this game top DD job then!"

Sounds like no direction. A few months ago they didn't say a thing about their plan to make THF DNC BLU top DD in this game, I guess the direction has changed. It happens a lot recently, the design direction of job point system changed, and the design direction of 1h job changed. It just....change a lot. I suppose I should just QQ for my jobs in this game and hope for a random OP buff as well.

[dasva]

No job should be able to do 40-50k in one shot, whether it's THF or any other, and whether or not they've sucked for however long.
Here's lolbst with a magical ws that has mediocre stats when they don't even have access to hardly any mab

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/34c4ff3859147e35ed58861192f9aae4.png


Also already said but need context on setup and content. And everyone can do 50k plus on the right content. Heck I was doing 60k+ before we even got to 99

[Atomic_Skull]

Sounds like no direction. A few months ago they didn't say a thing about their plan to make THF DNC BLU top DD in this game, I guess the direction has changed. It happens a lot recently, the design direction of job point system changed, and the design direction of 1h job changed. It just....change a lot. I suppose I should just QQ for my jobs in this game and hope for a random OP buff as well.

You mean like they did with 2H back in 2008?

[FrankReynolds]

Hard content gets easier in every MMO....but only as ilv goes up or better gear release. In this game hard content gets much easier without getting higher ilv.

That is so that players are adequately geared when the next level of content comes out. It's well documented in numerous dev posts.


If you bother to read the discussion, you'd know that isn't the case at all. 1h jobs don't suck and they don't need to be the best DD in this game.

Says you. There have been points in the game where dual wielding jobs were the preferred DD classes and there was nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with dual wield jobs being good DDs. You just prefer 2h jobs. That's your opinion. I've yet to see anything suggesting that 2 hand jobs being the best is in any way necessary or better in any way.

[Tennotsukai]

I'm sorry everyone, but ever since that 1h update thf has been top dd parser in every event I've been to. Sam is close to top as well. Perhaps, what needs done is just more tweaking of the ws's. I honestly don't feel sam, mnk, rng, dnc, or thf need anymore buffs. They all have good dps or something that benefits them like hateless dmg, high hp, or something or other. Jobs like war, drg, drk, nin, pup, & blu need help. I know someone may think blu is good, but dnc destroys them now and they're both versatile jobs.

[Nebo]

It doesn't suprise me that people see more THF winning parses now. Those that endeavor play THF to its DD potential have always had to work harder than other DD's to put out good numbers. Generally, I find the ones that do are obsessing over spread sheets about their gear sets, vs various targets, optimal food, etc. They always had to go that extra mile to prove that they could provide relevant DPS to a group. They always feel like they have something to prove when occupying a DD slot.

A THF like that, just jumped straight to the front of the pack in terms of DPS because they finally gave us a WS that works synergistically with our JA's and skillchaining instead of punishing us. I would point to the fact that several other DD jobs are ahead of both THF and DNC right now in terms of DPS potential, but people just see the big rudra number that comes with holding TP and stacking JA's that have recast timers.

All that big WS damage does is servve to mitigate the fact that we cannot just unleash powerful WS at 1000TP as we wish without concern for position or recast timers like other DDs can. We have to pick our moment and our shot. There is nothing wrong with rewarding that type of strategic DPS play. Other DDs can spam much more powerful WS than our unstacked WS in that time frame.

What's really broken about all of this is the skill chain component. BTW, SAM is still winning that game by a mile. They can solo that shit all day long. Although I suspect that a mythic THF with AM 3 and buffs could replicate this to some degree now.

All this to say, THF is a DD, DNC is a DD, BLU is a DD, WAR is a DD, DRK is a DD, SAM is a DD, MNK is a DD, etc. They all have utility aspects to them. The point is that when a DD has DPS that is not competetive, their utility no longer matters. There is no amount of utility that can overcome that lack of dps. So it's optimal that they can all deal comparable damage, offer different utility aspects and cater to different play styles to appeal to a variety of players.

It appears to me that they are starting to realise this and move in that direction. I am more hopeful than I have ever been with recent updates and conversations about pet jobs, etc. This is the best time I've had in FFXI in a very long time.

[Nebo]

I know someone may think blu is good, but dnc destroys them now and they're both versatile jobs.

I don't know who told you this, but someone lied to you. BLU > DNC atm

[Zarchery]

Let's just make every attack, weapon skill, and spell in existence do the same amount of damage to every mob all the time. Then we will finally achieve true balance. There is no other way.

[Tennotsukai]

I don\\'t know who told you this, but someone lied to you. BLU > DNC atm

Yup, a reputable player from ffxiah blu forums. Still though, thf dominates now

[dasva]

Of course in situations where SA/TA become difficult to use dps drops sharply

[Atomic_Skull]

It doesn't suprise me that people see more THF winning parses now. Those that endeavor play THF to its DD potential have always had to work harder than other DD's to put out good numbers. Generally, I find the ones that do are obsessing over spread sheets about their gear sets, vs various targets, optimal food, etc. They always had to go that extra mile to prove that they could provide relevant DPS to a group. They always feel like they have something to prove when occupying a DD slot.


Meanwhile SAM can just faceroll and still outparse virtually any job save for THF now.

[Afania]

What's really broken about all of this is the skill chain component. BTW, SAM is still winning that game by a mile.

If you read OP's concern, it's mostly because of SC(although he didn't actually mention SC)

We have someone posted 60k rudra SS in this thread, and I've seen rudra did 99999 darkness SC.

In theory, rudra+ SC can do over 150k dmg if you engage with 3k TP.....which is perfectly doable with regain roll.

Now if you have 2 THF doing 2 darkness SC, that's 300k dmg.

Now if you use wildcard to reset JA and give them 3000 TP again, you can do that twice.

Leaden+ 1st THF's rudra= darkness. Leaden + 2nd THF's rudra= darkness. Wildcard and repeat this process again, that's 600k dmg in 1.5 min with THF THF COR as 3 DD setup.

I haven't try this personally, but if it's doable then it sounds insanely broken. Simply because, if you use a different 3 DD setup, such as DRK DRK DRK, you aren't going to deal 600k dmg in 1.5 min unless there are tricks/gimmicks that I don't know about.

Of course you can argue that "600k dmg in 1.5 min? Big deal. SE can just add NM with 2 million HP."

The issue is that you're going to have THF THF COR still kill this 2M HP boss much faster than a different DD setup, such as DRK x3.

I don't know if this is intentional, if it's not intentional, then it's an exploit.

If it's intentional, then it's clearly a design flaw.




There is no amount of utility that can overcome that lack of dps.

This is simply not true. Before Leaden gets 100% AGI mod, I usually only parse around 60%~80% of another DD in delve on COR. Sometimes even lower than 60% if the DD is really, really elite. Even then I still get /tell for invite very often, simply because chaos+defense down from COR can make up the remaining 40% dmg gap. Therefore 1 COR 2 DD> 3 DD, even if the COR doesn't outparse the 3rd DD.

Utility CAN overcome the lack of DPS, period. Anyone believe otherwise is just...biased.



All your other arguments basically just boil down to wanting 1 handed jobs to suck because in your head 2 handers are better.


I love how this discussion turned into "you're just a THF or 1h hater" "You just want SAM to be the best" if I think rudra needs a nerf. If you bother to check this forum and BG, I've been saying that SAM and it's solo SC mechanics is clearly a design flaw and it needs a nerf. When some ppl abuse indi-malaise for 70k+ leaden salute on AH, I said it needs a nerf as well.

So, I'm not a 2h DD hater even if I said SAM solo SC mechanics needs a nerf. I'm not a COR or magical DD hater even if I said Indi-malaise mechanics needs a nerf. But if I think rudra spike dmg is a design flaw, I'm somehow a 1h DD hater?

The amount of bias in this thread is beyond my comprehension.

SE has been nerfing certain game mechanics that made clearing the content too easy for past 10 years, DRK was nerfed, SCH was nerfed, WAR was nerfed, and many other jobs....I don't understand why can't rudra get a nerf.

[dasva]

Meanwhile sams do that skillchaining except they 5 step and do it with no other DDs in the pt without need for 1hrs just constantly throwing out skillchains with no waits inbetween and have been doing so since the skillchain update

Also there is no way a thf thf cor combo is going to survive long enough to get that tp let alone be able to do ws anywhere near that powerful powerful with that lack of support on anything that worthwhile

[Afania]

Meanwhile sams do that skillchaining except they 5 step and do it with no other DDs in the pt without need for 1hrs just constantly throwing out skillchains with no waits inbetween and have been doing so since the skillchain update

Also there is no way a thf thf cor combo is going to survive long enough to get that tp let alone be able to do ws anywhere near that powerful powerful with that lack of support on anything that worthwhile

AFAIK 1 SAM 5 steps isn't going to do 600k dmg in 1.5 min, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though, since I don't play SAM.

I'm not sure what do you mean by THF THF COR, isn't going to "survive long enough" to get that much TP since you have 3 more PT spot for healer/support? I also tossed out a scenario to get TP with very little downtime: Enter the BC or pop the NM with 3000 TP, get 3000 TP again with wildcard.

[Nebo]

I don't understand

QFT


why can't rudra get a nerf.

Because it doesn't need one.


I haven't try this personally

See point one.

[Afania]

Because it doesn't need one.


I'm so posting 99999 darkness SC SS from rudras next time when I see one. Maybe I should make a THF rudras +SC one shot video as well.

[dasva]

AFAIK 1 SAM 5 steps isn't going to do 600k dmg in 1.5 min, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though, since I don't play SAM.

I'm not sure what do you mean by THF THF COR, isn't going to "survive long enough" to get that much TP since you have 3 more PT spot for healer/support? I also tossed out a scenario to get TP with very little downtime: Enter the BC or pop the NM with 3000 TP, get 3000 TP again with wildcard.

Thf isn't going to do 50k dmg on anything regardless of buffs or tp on something that isn't weak to physical/piercing and if we are going that route guess what I've seen groups that go 5 support 1 sam in yorcia delve because the sam can kill nms in 30 seconds. And a 2 step level 3 on a mob with higher level than you will only do 35% more dmg than the closing ws without some kind of magic weakness (not counting things like skillchain bonus obis elemental staffs etc) so that 99999 was a definite fluke

Normal numbers for 3000 SA or TA rudra's without dmg weaknesses are more like 20-25k. Hell I barely get 60k (admittedly not the best geared) in abyssea against piercing weak mobs with +100% crit dmg atmas on stuff I know I'm capping attack on. So a rudra rudra skillchain assuming you can actually get both of them SA and/or TA (in a fight of any length this might require unengaging for a short time to allow the other thf to definitely have hate) you'd expect a total dmg about 80k. More if you can obviously throw in some extra buffs/debufs with other support or like I think you were suggesting having the cor start the skillchain so the first rudra's does dark and the 2nd does double dark (not counting the cor dmg that would be more like 130k)

Now I admit I don't hang with great sams much but I normally see the around 8k for kasha and 10-12k for fudo/Shoha (someone with better numbers can pipe in) but using those much lower ws numbers than rudra's a normal 5 step skillchain for sam would do 140k and be done in all of about 20-30 seconds and then if the mob is alive do it again. And since you only need 1 dd could easily throw another support in there like say smn for crystalline blessing tp bonus to up that dmg a lot. And this is just delve gkt without any special jas being used someone with Kogarasumaru could do much better and when they are up things like meditate, Sengikori, and Hagakure will greatly increase dmgs all on 3 min timers

The survive thing was because you were seeming to imply just 2thf + cor was going to wreck stuff which it wont

[Byrth]

5 Support? Psssht. We were doing 15 minuteish runs with 4 support and a SAM. I know it has been beaten with 2 support and a SAM.

[Afania]

Thf isn't going to do 50k dmg on anything regardless of buffs or tp on something that isn't weak to physical/piercing and if we are going that route guess what I've seen groups that go 5 support 1 sam in yorcia delve because the sam can kill nms in 30 seconds. And a 2 step level 3 on a mob with higher level than you will only do 35% more dmg than the closing ws without some kind of magic weakness (not counting things like skillchain bonus obis elemental staffs etc) so that 99999 was a definite fluke


Since the previous setup I mentioned has a COR, you get additional 35% SC bonus from rolls. If you can somehow cap attack without /WAR(which seems doable with idris GEO 2hr COR etc), /DNC gives another 8%. 99999 isn't as out of reach as it seems.



Now I admit I don't hang with great sams much but I normally see the around 8k for kasha and 10-12k for fudo/Shoha (someone with better numbers can pipe in) but using those much lower ws numbers than rudra's a normal 5 step skillchain for sam would do 140k and be done in all of about 20-30 seconds and then if the mob is alive do it again.

Is that 10k~12k avg? If your SAM is averaging 10k~12k fudo/shoha, I'm not convinced that THF SATA 3000 TP is only 20~25k under the same buff on the same target. Since I've seen much higher SATA 3k TP rudra than 20k~25k on mobs without weakness, but in most of the situation SAM usually won't avg 10k~12k fudo/shoha unless a GEO 2hr or fighting wopket.

Btw, I'm not sure why's sam being pulled into this discussion again. I've been saying SAM SC mechanics needs a nerf over and over again, on BG and on this forum. There's no point to defend for the OPness of rudra by using SAM/fudo as an example. Both WS has serious design flaws that needs a nerf. You guys are trying to justify a flawed design with another flawed design.

[Nebo]

Btw, I'm not sure why's sam being pulled into this discussion again. I've been saying SAM SC mechanics needs a nerf over and over again, on BG and on this forum. There's no point to defend for the OPness of rudra by using SAM/fudo as an example. Both WS has serious design flaws that needs a nerf. You guys are trying to justify a flawed design with another flawed design.

All you are really saying is that Skillchains need adjustment(I agree with this). And a 99999 skillchain is a result of a double darkness and exploiting a damage bonus (piercing, +MDT, etc) like a lot of the largantua SS you see. Rudra's storm is not an OP WS. It's actually quite mediocre without holding TP and stacking with JA's. That's the main point you are missing. Other DD's can just SPAM many powerful WS without concern for position or recast timers at the delay reduction cap in the same timeframe that a THF could pull off one powerful stacked Rudra. Of Course that singular WS number is going to be bigger, but the opportunities to do them are also more limited.

It also bears repeating that many jobs are still ahead of THF in terms of DPS potential. Cry BLU nerf, CRY SAM nerf, cry something that makes actual sense....or just stop crying. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

[dasva]

Since the previous setup I mentioned has a COR, you get additional 35% SC bonus from rolls. If you can somehow cap attack without /WAR(which seems doable with idris GEO 2hr COR etc), /DNC gives another 8%. 99999 isn't as out of reach as it seems.

Yeah the sams can also get that roll so nice try. And they benefit more than thf would from several other rolls namely save tp and DA rolls


Is that 10k~12k avg? If your SAM is averaging 10k~12k fudo/shoha, I'm not convinced that THF SATA 3000 TP is only 20~25k under the same buff on the same target. Since I've seen much higher SATA 3k TP rudra than 20k~25k, but in most of the situation SAM usually won't avg 10k~12k fudo/shoha unless a GEO 2hr or fighting wopket..Wtf does geo have to do with it? All they are doing is lowering def and thf is more likely to need that that sam especially with shoha. And Wopket? I've seen waaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher sam dmg than that.

3000 SA rudra's with capped pdif on a dmg neutral target with 300 dex and +25% crit dmg is mathed out to ~30k dmg. So your "much" higher is definitely a dmg weak mob and I use thf a lot now and 20-25k is much closer to the norm on neutral mobs. But sure let's go with 30k and give you a 8% skillchain bonus your rudra rudra dark goes up to 103k.

A Fudo with 300 str, also capped pdif with overwhelm with delve gkt on a dmg neutral mob with average effective tp of 1800 (fairly easy since they can get to 1000 before animation ends combined with 550 tp bonus) with only on average 1 extra hit (mythic sams will be much higher) is 9.5k fudo and 5.5k shoha so guess I'm just seeing a lot of dmg weak stuff. Adjusting for that the 5 step skillchain will only be 93k.

Slightly less but much more repeatable so while your thfs are waiting for tp/timers and trying to get into position/turn the mob your sam or other DDs are spamming their ws. And these ws are significantly more buffable since they will increase with tp a lot and the relatively low ftp helps make extra hits do more. And if we are going to bring in your spike dmg I'm going to bring in sam jas to boost that a dmg


Btw, I'm not sure why's sam being pulled into this discussion again. I've been saying SAM SC mechanics needs a nerf over and over again, on BG and on this forum. There's no point to defend for the OPness of rudra by using SAM/fudo as an example. Both WS has serious design flaws that needs a nerf. You guys are trying to justify a flawed design with another flawed design.

Sam is being pulled in to show that other jobs can do it to and do so with what is now mediocre ws dmg to show that the real problem was the skillchain update. And if you think Fudo is OP idk what to tell you as I can outdo fudos dmg with rdm cdcs. I posted a 50k+ cloudsplitter the past page which I'm pretty sure I could beat with trueflight on my rng and leaden salute is better than that now especially with the newish hairpin. I think byrth gets 30k vidohunirs solo on blm

Also if you want to get into realllly big numbers go sam + thf instead of just sam or thf thf. The game might only display 99999 but the dmg goes higher and you will hit skillchains waaaaaaaay higher than that

[dasva]

5 Support? Psssht. We were doing 15 minuteish runs with 4 support and a SAM. I know it has been beaten with 2 support and a SAM.

Wasn't that 2 support sam triboxed too?

[Ulth]

The game might only display 99999 but the dmg goes higher and you will hit skillchains waaaaaaaay higher than that

Wait, is this true? I figured it was like other final fantasy games where there is a damage cap that can't go over a certain number.

[Zeargi]

I'm pretty sure this is true. I remember seeing a picture of something using Benediction after receive a crap ton of DMG, but the amount healed was greater than what was displayed.

[Afania]

Cry BLU nerf, CRY SAM nerf, cry something that makes actual sense....or just stop crying. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

And I did? Funny thing is when I mentioned the above 2 jobs shouldn't be as strong as they currently are, and for some reason you completely missed it. Go back to previous pages, see what I said about SAM and BLU. When I mentioned your beloved THF you complained about "you have no idea what you are talking about", you're just....unable to accept other's opinion as long as it's about THF.

[Afania]

3000 SA rudra's with capped pdif on a dmg neutral target with 300 dex and +25% crit dmg is mathed out to ~30k dmg. So your "much" higher is definitely a dmg weak mob and I use thf a lot now and 20-25k is much closer to the norm on neutral mobs. But sure let's go with 30k and give you a 8% skillchain bonus your rudra rudra dark goes up to 103k.

A Fudo with 300 str, also capped pdif with overwhelm with delve gkt on a dmg neutral mob with average effective tp of 1800 (fairly easy since they can get to 1000 before animation ends combined with 550 tp bonus) with only on average 1 extra hit (mythic sams will be much higher) is 9.5k fudo and 5.5k shoha so guess I'm just seeing a lot of dmg weak stuff. Adjusting for that the 5 step skillchain will only be 93k.

Slightly less but much more repeatable so while your thfs are waiting for tp/timers and trying to get into position/turn the mob your sam or other DDs are spamming their ws. And these ws are significantly more buffable since they will increase with tp a lot and the relatively low ftp helps make extra hits do more. And if we are going to bring in your spike dmg I'm going to bring in sam jas to boost that a dmg

Sam is being pulled in to show that other jobs can do it to and do so with what is now mediocre ws dmg to show that the real problem was the skillchain update. And if you think Fudo is OP idk what to tell you as I can outdo fudos dmg with rdm cdcs. I posted a 50k+ cloudsplitter the past page which I'm pretty sure I could beat with trueflight on my rng and leaden salute is better than that now especially with the newish hairpin. I think byrth gets 30k vidohunirs solo on blm


1)I've seen 30k+ in incursion, do they have dmg boost mechanic? Feel free to tell about it if I missed anything.

2)The situation I talked about wasn't a situation that'd need to wait for JA recast. You engage NM with JA, reset JA, zerg, by the time you finished zerging NM's already dead.

3)Ok, SAM is OP, but that wasn't my point, see the post above.

[dasva]

Wait, is this true? I figured it was like other final fantasy games where there is a damage cap that can't go over a certain number.

There was a guy who screenshotted doing a 113559 barrage to Volatile Matamata that he claims took it from 46% to 0 by itself and that mob has a little over 2 mil hp... so that would be around 1 mil dmg but not as much showed. And previously when the display cap was around 63k people were clearly going over it and it would just roll around and they'd one shot mobs with 65k+ hp

[dasva]

1)I've seen 30k+ in incursion, do they have dmg boost mechanic? Feel free to tell about it if I missed anything.

2)The situation I talked about wasn't a situation that'd need to wait for JA recast. You engage NM with JA, reset JA, zerg, by the time you finished zerging NM's already dead.

3)Ok, SAM is OP, but that wasn't my point, see the post above.

1) I forgot the randomizer which could add another 15% but I didn't because you can't rely on that especially considering I was already relying on rolling high pdif with capped cRATIO while for the sam I was figuring average pdif with capped cRATIO. Again you are clearly talking random spikes or dmg weak mobs not averages

2) Fine let's not wait. I'll throw meditate in there to boost several ws, Hagakure to give the last fudo a 1000 tp bonus and Sengikori to give the last skillchain another 25% dmg.

3) Not just sam look how OP rng is let's ban trueflight too!!! I mean I don't even play it and just threw random gear I mostly got from my thf on it imagine if I geared and had day and weather and iridescence bonus. And had a better geo. And more agi from a brd and whm. And cor to add another 20% from qd and mab roll. And run to give another 30% dmg with gambit!!! And find someone to give me killer effects for even moar! And leaden salute is slightly stronger


http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/f43a8ee9e6d1f6d3004593acd28c5d4e.png

[Byrth]

It's clearly possible to go over the display cap for damage and that's kind of too bad, but it's unlikely that SE will increase it again. I think they're stretching their space a bit thin. For instance, did you know that spike damage is still capped at 9,999?

If they wanted to increase the damage cap further, they'd have to reduce the maximum number of targets that are displayed per action.

[Atomic_Skull]

I don't understand why can't rudra get a nerf.

Because it's fine the way it is.

[Demonjustin]

I don't understand why can't rudra get a nerf.Because it's fine the way it is.If only explaining things were so simple.

[Afania]

3) Not just sam look how OP rng is let's ban trueflight too!!!

Malaise needs a nerf, yeah.



Because it's fine the way it is.

Lol, coming from someone with a "problem SAM?" and an epeen rudra SS in the signature, sounds pretty ironic to me.

[Alhanelem]

There was a guy who screenshotted doing a 113559 barrage to Volatile Matamata that he claims took it from 46% to 0 by itself and that mob has a little over 2 mil hp... so that would be around 1 mil dmg but not as much showed. And previously when the display cap was around 63k people were clearly going over it and it would just roll around and they'd one shot mobs with 65k+ hp

The maximum you can see *before day/weather multipliers* is 99999 (used to be 9999). However, multipliers added at the end can result in a displayed number that goes over 9999. When using Odin on NMs when it came out, I would frequently see it do 9999 damage when used at the start of a fight; but sometimes, if it was darksday or dark weather, I would see numbers over 10000. The 9999 cap was later increased to 9999 as ways of doing that much damage increased, i believe.

I've also seen (back before Audolin came out) weapon skills that did 9999 damage but resulted in a skillchain that did more than 10000. It's an awkward design in any case, because it was definitely dealing more damage than the 9999 stated.

[dasva]

The maximum you can see *before day/weather multipliers* is 99999 (used to be 9999). However, multipliers added at the end can result in a displayed number that goes over 9999. When using Odin on NMs when it came out, I would frequently see it do 9999 damage when used at the start of a fight; but sometimes, if it was darksday or dark weather, I would see numbers over 10000. The 9999 cap was later increased to 9999 as ways of doing that much damage increased, i believe.

I've also seen (back before Audolin came out) weapon skills that did 9999 damage but resulted in a skillchain that did more than 10000. It's an awkward design in any case, because it was definitely dealing more damage than the 9999 stated.

Are you sure 9999 was the display cap because 9999 was the cap on the ability of Zantetsuken before modifiers not display cap. And isn't it still that way? Also back in abyssea era it was somewhere between 60-65k and if you did more it would just wrap around so a 70k ws would say it only did 5k or something like that. I have a few screenshots somewhere of 1 shotting Shinryu with "15k" wildfires

Also what do you mean multipliers on the end? Most damage calcs are mostly a bunch of multipliers and in the case of magic dmg several things come after day/weather.

[Comeatmebro]

dasva is correct, display cap was 65535 not 9999

[Sixtythree]

I can't help but feel like some of the argument isn't so much the actual use and utility of the job and more based off of "daggers and dancers shouldn't out-damage my battle axe."

[Ritsuka]

does anybody else get POED when u go to wildskeeper reive for bayld farming and u get a bunch of thieves and dancers spamming 23-25k rundras and kill boss in less than five mins? SE, methinks, unintentionally screwed the pooch on this one. this totally ruins wkr bayld farming as 5 mins isnt nearly enuff time to cap out your bayld. doing 23k dmg against a wkr boss is just stupid and retarded, since you dont make any bayld and plus, you ruin the gameplay. by the time somebody shouts, you see the shout, get ur access ki, tele there, boss is already dead. went to 3 wkrs that started at over 90 percent. by the time i got it, got past the lag, got trusts out, boss was already dead and i wasted the fee for the ki. overpowering dagger weaponskills to this extent is one of the stupidest things that SE has ever done. i mean, dagger of all weapons. the weapon that does the least dmg. COME ON SE! pop your heads out and look at what you did. sheesh:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


First people cry that now the game is hard now there crying that its to easy make up your mind women!

[Alhanelem]

Are you sure 9999 was the display cap because 9999 was the cap on the ability of Zantetsuken before modifiers not display cap.I remember seeing DRKs being able to do 9999 under specific circumstances during TOAU, and if they skillchained, the skillchain would do more than 9999.

[Metaking]

qurtubs or whatever those undead were called took double dmg(also had double or triple hp i believe), and then the sc would do double that, remember seeing a 8k light from cannonball, and considering how weak even with sata blu magic was back then, i could defiantly see a dark sata spiral hell for stupid dmg back then... cant really think of much back then tho, that could have actually survived that kinda dmg tho...

[dasva]

I remember seeing DRKs being able to do 9999 under specific circumstances during TOAU, and if they skillchained, the skillchain would do more than 9999.

Perhaps I don't remember ever doing that much back then... either way right before it was changed to 99999 it was more around 65k which was easily doable in abyssea

[Camiie]

I can't help but feel like some of the argument isn't so much the actual use and utility of the job and more based off of "daggers and dancers shouldn't out-damage my battle axe."

Also people are wrapped up in what they thought was SE's design philosophy. That it's ok for jobs to be one-ability or one-event wonders. That hybrids shouldn't actually be good at anything. Some players' (virtual) world view has been turned on its head and they aren't handling it well.

[Byrth]

Perhaps I don't remember ever doing that much back then... either way right before it was changed to 99999 it was more around 65k which was easily doable in abyssea

65536 is probably what it was.

[Kimble]

From what I've been experiencing, people who still do VWNMs hesitate to bring multiple THFs.

There was an argument in one group I was in. There were four THFs who had Kaggen's HP down to under 8% after all THFs used Rudra about a second after we spawned Kaggen.

After the first four pops and never capping red or getting White proc, the group disbanded.

[dasva]

Well that's just people being stupid lol. I mean you've always been able to kill way before you could proc but you didn't unless you wanted too.

[Crevox]

Personally, I would like to see a Rudra's Storm nerf. It's gotten to the point where nothing in the game is difficult as long as you have Bards, Thieves, or Dancers. Yes, even Bards are doing it, because it does such large amounts of damage even for them, it's a waste not to.

It sucks going up to a boss and just doing absolutely terrible damage compared to them because all they have to do is just use Rudra's over and over again. Everything dies extremely quickly. I joined a Valkurm Imperator party, and naturally we have a Thief, and he kills it from 50% health to 0% with one Rudra's. Joined Walk of Echoes, hey look, another Thief, once again doing extremely large amounts of damage with Rudra's.

Rudra's trivializes all the content, because everything is solved by just throwing daggers at it, and you know you can never really match up to them in damage because it's just that much stronger than everything else. It's not even like it requires good gear to do so, or requires specific group comps; it's just extremely strong all the time. And no, I don't want other jobs buffed up to its strength either, because it is just way too powerful. Everything dies way too fast and easy with it.

This isn't fun. Joining any content with people who use Rudra's just makes it boring.

[Camiie]

This isn't fun. Joining any content with people who use Rudra's just makes it boring.

To each their own, because it's great fun to me! I adore dual wielding and attacking quickly. It's been a long time since that's actually been worth doing. I've never understood why FFXI and other MMOs tend to put such heavy penalties on it. That's ruined quite a few games for me. If I hadn't found enjoyment in other jobs it would have ruined FFXI for me too.

[Tidis]

From what I've been experiencing, people who still do VWNMs hesitate to bring multiple THFs.

There was an argument in one group I was in. There were four THFs who had Kaggen's HP down to under 8% after all THFs used Rudra about a second after we spawned Kaggen.

After the first four pops and never capping red or getting White proc, the group disbanded.

Tell them to stop being stupid and not WS unless they need to proc or red is capped, VW stuff dies fast, Rudra's just makes it faster, ideally you should just have 1 DD holding it until red is proc'd then melt it.

[Ulth]

From what I've been experiencing, people who still do VWNMs hesitate to bring multiple THFs.

There was an argument in one group I was in. There were four THFs who had Kaggen's HP down to under 8% after all THFs used Rudra about a second after we spawned Kaggen.

After the first four pops and never capping red or getting White proc, the group disbanded.

When it comes to VW I don't even fight. I sit back turned away waiting to hear them call out "Job ability thf" or "Full attack!" If the only person meleeing the mob isn't a war or nin with a 1 damage weapon, you are doing it wrong.

Personally, I would like to see a Rudra's Storm nerf. It's gotten to the point where nothing in the game is difficult as long as you have Bards, Thieves, or Dancers. Yes, even Bards are doing it, because it does such large amounts of damage even for them, it's a waste not to.

It sucks going up to a boss and just doing absolutely terrible damage compared to them because all they have to do is just use Rudra's over and over again. Everything dies extremely quickly. I joined a Valkurm Imperator party, and naturally we have a Thief, and he kills it from 50% health to 0% with one Rudra's. Joined Walk of Echoes, hey look, another Thief, once again doing extremely large amounts of damage with Rudra's.

Rudra's trivializes all the content, because everything is solved by just throwing daggers at it, and you know you can never really match up to them in damage because it's just that much stronger than everything else. It's not even like it requires good gear to do so, or requires specific group comps; it's just extremely strong all the time. And no, I don't want other jobs buffed up to its strength either, because it is just way too powerful. Everything dies way too fast and easy with it.

This isn't fun. Joining any content with people who use Rudra's just makes it boring.

Valkurm Imperator is weak to piercing. Gear actually matters a whole lot for rudra damage, it matters even more for being able to tp efficiently. Thief damage is highly based on the group set up; if there are no other melee jobs, there is no one to trick attack off or to hold hate while you sneak attack, so damage is basically halved. Please stop spreading misconceptions.

Playing thf well is not as simple as everyone seems to think. I know because since the update everyone has been playing thf, and a lot aren't that good at it. I'm only okay at it, and I do at least double what the bandwagon thfs are doing. thf just seems crazy op because the people who were good at it before the update were working with a disadvantage and now have the advantage.

[dasva]

Personally, I would like to see a Rudra's Storm nerf. It's gotten to the point where nothing in the game is difficult as long as you have Bards, Thieves, or Dancers. Yes, even Bards are doing it, because it does such large amounts of damage even for them, it's a waste not to.

It sucks going up to a boss and just doing absolutely terrible damage compared to them because all they have to do is just use Rudra's over and over again. Everything dies extremely quickly. I joined a Valkurm Imperator party, and naturally we have a Thief, and he kills it from 50% health to 0% with one Rudra's. Joined Walk of Echoes, hey look, another Thief, once again doing extremely large amounts of damage with Rudra's.

Rudra's trivializes all the content, because everything is solved by just throwing daggers at it, and you know you can never really match up to them in damage because it's just that much stronger than everything else. It's not even like it requires good gear to do so, or requires specific group comps; it's just extremely strong all the time. And no, I don't want other jobs buffed up to its strength either, because it is just way too powerful. Everything dies way too fast and easy with it.

This isn't fun. Joining any content with people who use Rudra's just makes it boring.

Well then you better be asking for a nerf on like half the magical ws out there since they can go as high lol.... Pretty sure I can get several of the 1hd physical ones can go almost that high as well. Oh and barrage while we are at it. sam for it's constant skillchaining

[Camiie]

Besides, don't you have to stack abilities like SA, TA, or Climactic Flourish to get those huge numbers out of Rudra's?

[Crevox]

if there are no other melee jobs, there is no one to trick attack off or to hold hate while you sneak attack, so damage is basically halved. Please stop spreading misconceptions.

Playing thf well is not as simple as everyone seems to think. I know because since the update everyone has been playing thf, and a lot aren't that good at it. I'm only okay at it, and I do at least double what the bandwagon thfs are doing. thf just seems crazy op because the people who were good at it before the update were working with a disadvantage and now have the advantage.

Yeah, you can trick attack or sneak attack, and that just makes the damage even higher. The damage is still stupidly high regardless of whether or not you do that.

Yes, Valkurm Imperator is one example, but there are many other fights I've done with Thieves where they simply just melt everything. It really doesn't matter what it is; use Rudra's, thing dies. Sure you can be a good thief and actually know how to use your JA's, but the fact is that you don't have to, because Rudra's still melts everything regardless.


Gear actually matters a whole lot for rudra damage, it matters even more for being able to tp efficiently.

Of course it does, like everything else, but the point is that it's absurdly strong even without the proper gear. That just makes it even better.


Well then you better be asking for a nerf on like half the magical ws out there since they can go as high lol.... Pretty sure I can get several of the 1hd physical ones can go almost that high as well. Oh and barrage while we are at it. sam for it's constant skillchaining

Under special cases, magical weaponskills can hit very high damage, yes. If special cases are applied to Rudra's, then we get the OP skillchain damage and Rudra's damage screenshots too. A lot of things can become very strong under optimal conditions. The thing is that Rudra's do not require optimal conditions to be strong, and IF those optimal conditions are granted to Rudra's, then it's even way further beyond in strength.

SAM is the only thing that can compete with the dagger jobs right now, yes. SAM and fudo and skillchaining has always been stronger than everything else, however, Rudra's has taken that a huge step further, and too far. Instead of buffing thieves to the strength of Samurai, they took it past that.


Besides, don't you have to stack abilities like SA, TA, or Climactic Flourish to get those huge numbers out of Rudra's?


That's the thing; no, you don't have to. Most of the thieves I party with don't use any of those. They don't have to. If they do, it's even better yeah, and even more OP, but even without it, it's still way stronger than it should be.

All the content I join nowadays is just a bunch of thieves spamming Rudra's. Some Thieves do TA, some do SA, whatever, doesn't matter. They just all walk up to the mob and mash Rudra's at the enemy until it dies. Yaaaay. So exciting. So much skill.

[FrankReynolds]

Yes, Valkurm Imperator is one example, but there are many other fights I've done with Thieves where they simply just melt everything.



Thieves aren't "Melting" anything that samurais and monks weren't already melting. Samurais still out parse most thieves in general. Rudras hasn't changed the difficulty of the content at all. Just the jobs that can do it. Stop spreading FUD.

[Crevox]

Well, I've been doing Delve, Incursion, battlefields, unity fights, walk of echoes, and more since the update. Since then it's been a lot of thieves, and from my experiences with all of them, what I said is true. You may have a different view and opinion, but so far, that's been my experience.

[FrankReynolds]

Well, I've been doing Delve, Incursion, battlefields, unity fights, walk of echoes, and more since the update. Since then it's been a lot of thieves, and from my experiences with all of them, what I said is true. You may have a different view and opinion, but so far, that's been my experience.

It's math man. Thieves aren't capable of that much more damage (if any) than samurais. It's not an opinion. It's a fact. Things die just as fast without a thief. Nothing has changed except the job that people are on when they do the content. Anything beyond that is in your head.

[Crevox]

I have seen the math the other way around too. See how that works?

You are entitled to your own opinion and I am to mine. I've made my opinion on the matter clear, so that's all I needed to say.

[FrankReynolds]

I have seen the math the other way around too. See how that works?


No. Math doesn't work that way. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own math.

[Byrth]

I have 291 DEX in my Rudra's Storm set, which gives me about 340 base damage. It has about 10.45 fTP at 1250 TP (Moonshade) including offhand and additional attacks for me (no AM3). This gives it 3553*pDIF damage.

Assuming SAM has 300 STR in their Tachi: Fudo set and is using Kogarasumaru, about 490 base damage. It has about 5.5 fTP at 1250 TP (Moonshade) including additional attacks (AM3). This gives it 3207*pDIF damage with Overwhelm.

So in terms of raw damage, Rudra's should actually do more damage than Tachi: Fudo if used at 1000 TP unstacked. However if you remember back to the YGK days, SAM's main strategic advantage was their high WS rate, multiple skillchain properties, and the attack bonus on their important WSs. Fudo lacks that attack bonus, but the job still pumps out WSs and now also has Skillchain Bonus.

[Crevox]

No. Math doesn't work that way. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own math.

You and the other people liking your posts should actually do the math instead of just saying so. You're all in a delusion hoping that Rudra's doesn't get nerfed instead of actually being concerned about the balance of the game, just being happy that you're OP. Beyond that, many of the people posting don't actually have enough experience with end game and other jobs to even make a proper judgment on it, they just like being strong.

I am really, really hoping it does get nerfed, but it probably won't be. SE never seems to nerf anything.

The damage, described by Byrth above, is very high. That combined with SA, TA, Assassin's Charge, whatever else Thief has, even more. I'm also pretty sure it scales better in damage at 3000 TP than Fudo does, resulting in even more damage (Rudra's is 19.5 at 3000, Fudo is 8.0, Rudra's scales up harder). Beyond that, they also bring TH and the utility of the enmity control, Feint, Conspirator... blah blah. There's just no reason for Rudra's to do so much damage on top of everything else Thief already has going for it.

We also can't forget the 99% accuracy of daggers, and how much stronger Rudra's is than every other dagger weaponskill, thus making them almost useless in comparison in the majority of scenarios.

[FrankReynolds]

You and the other people liking your posts should actually do the math instead of just saying so. You're all in a delusion hoping that Rudra's doesn't get nerfed instead of actually being concerned about the balance of the game, just being happy that you're OP. Beyond that, many of the people posting don't actually have enough experience with end game and other jobs to even make a proper judgment on it, they just like being strong.

I am really, really hoping it does get nerfed, but it probably won't be. SE never seems to nerf anything.

The damage, described by Byrth above, is very high. That combined with SA, TA, Assassin's Charge, whatever else Thief has, even more. I'm also pretty sure it scales better in damage at 3000 TP than Fudo does, resulting in even more damage (Rudra's is 19.5 at 3000, Fudo is 8.0, Rudra's scales up harder). Beyond that, they also bring TH and the utility of the enmity control, Feint, Conspirator... blah blah. There's just no reason for Rudra's to do so much damage on top of everything else Thief already has going for it.

We also can't forget the 99% accuracy of daggers, and how much stronger Rudra's is than every other dagger weaponskill, thus making them almost useless in comparison in the majority of scenarios.

The damage over time is what matters. Not who can hit the highest one time epeen weapon skill number during a fight. That's why monk has always been competitive despite low ws numbers and frequency in comparison to samurai. Thief has always been a job that relied on spike damage and it can do that again now. There's more to the game than who has the highest weapon skill number.

And come on... Enmity control?...Treasure hunter?... /SMH

[dasva]

You and the other people liking your posts should actually do the math instead of just saying so. You're all in a delusion hoping that Rudra's doesn't get nerfed instead of actually being concerned about the balance of the game, just being happy that you're OP. Beyond that, many of the people posting don't actually have enough experience with end game and other jobs to even make a proper judgment on it, they just like being strong.

I am really, really hoping it does get nerfed, but it probably won't be. SE never seems to nerf anything.

The damage, described by Byrth above, is very high. That combined with SA, TA, Assassin's Charge, whatever else Thief has, even more. I'm also pretty sure it scales better in damage at 3000 TP than Fudo does, resulting in even more damage (Rudra's is 19.5 at 3000, Fudo is 8.0, Rudra's scales up harder). Beyond that, they also bring TH and the utility of the enmity control, Feint, Conspirator... blah blah. There's just no reason for Rudra's to do so much damage on top of everything else Thief already has going for it.

We also can't forget the 99% accuracy of daggers, and how much stronger Rudra's is than every other dagger weaponskill, thus making them almost useless in comparison in the majority of scenarios.

I don't think you understand how this stuff works at all....

AC isn't going to add that much percentage wise especially if you SA/TA and at one point was actually a dps loss to use it though not sure it still is. And without SA/TA thf ws at 1000 tp are doing only similar dmg to what others are doing while not doing it as often/fast as jobs like sam

Not sure what your point in scaling as neither job would want to save that much tp other than to activate AM3 or maybe to store before a fight. But as far as which one scales better between 1250 and 3000 yes rudra's is bit better but it's not as crazy as you make it seem with those numbers they both gain a lot percentage wise. Meanwhile in the time you took to save up the same has made a self 5 step skillchain.

Also I wouldn't call it so much stronger than every other dagger ws. The jobs with mythic daggers do similar dmg with their weapons sometimes better sometimes worse. Mercy stroke does more at 1250. Evisceration also does a lot of the time which is nice when SA or TA aren't up

Edit: You know what also scales well and can get 99% acc? Savage blade. 5.0 ftp at 1000 14.5 at 3000. And at warrior making use of fencer and tp bonus earring will be having an effective tp of at a minimum 1800, with warcry up 2500. Which means throwing out ws with 13ftp as soon as they hit 1000 tp

[PlumbGame]

I have seen the math the other way around too. See how that works?

You are entitled to your own opinion and I am to mine. I've made my opinion on the matter clear, so that's all I needed to say.

o·pin·ion
əˈpinyən/
noun
noun: opinion; plural noun: opinions

a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.




fact
fakt/
noun
noun: fact; plural noun: facts

a thing that is indisputably the case.

[Atomic_Skull]

Yeah, you can trick attack or sneak attack, and that just makes the damage even higher. The damage is still stupidly high regardless of whether or not you do that.

Yes, Valkurm Imperator is one example, but there are many other fights I've done with Thieves where they simply just melt everything. It really doesn't matter what it is; use Rudra's, thing dies. Sure you can be a good thief and actually know how to use your JA's, but the fact is that you don't have to, because Rudra's still melts everything regardless.

Unstacked Rudra's does the same or less damage as Torcleaver, Victory Smite, Ukko's etc. You're just spreading blatant lies because of how desperately you want Rudra's nerfed.

[Sixtythree]

Rudra's shouldn't be nerfed, the WS itself isn't broken. Please also note that adjusting Rudra's Storm also impacts Dancer. I'll keep out of this discussion but if THF's spike damage rubs you the wrong way then other aspects of that job should be adjusted, not the WS itself.

[dasva]

Most of the dmg spiking from thfs is the forced critting... really brd/thf could put out almost as much assuming they can get similar levels of dex, crit dmg and attack.

Dncs can actually do it themselves just Climactic Flourish has a 1.5 minute recast (though it does add 20% to the critted hit) and also adds stat dmg on similar to sneak/trick attack. Though Striking flourish can also be used and only has a 30 second recast though it's only 50% chance to crit

[Ritsuka]

You and the other people liking your posts should actually do the math instead of just saying so. You're all in a delusion hoping that Rudra's doesn't get nerfed instead of actually being concerned about the balance of the game, just being happy that you're OP. Beyond that, many of the people posting don't actually have enough experience with end game and other jobs to even make a proper judgment on it, they just like being strong.

I am really, really hoping it does get nerfed, but it probably won't be. SE never seems to nerf anything.

The damage, described by Byrth above, is very high. That combined with SA, TA, Assassin's Charge, whatever else Thief has, even more. I'm also pretty sure it scales better in damage at 3000 TP than Fudo does, resulting in even more damage (Rudra's is 19.5 at 3000, Fudo is 8.0, Rudra's scales up harder). Beyond that, they also bring TH and the utility of the enmity control, Feint, Conspirator... blah blah. There's just no reason for Rudra's to do so much damage on top of everything else Thief already has going for it.

We also can't forget the 99% accuracy of daggers, and how much stronger Rudra's is than every other dagger weaponskill, thus making them almost useless in comparison in the majority of scenarios.

SE doesn't nerf anything? What crack are you smoking ? They nerf a bunch of stuff >.> Ranger use to do 500 a shot back at level 75 wayyyyy before those high stat gear. A lot of people quit over it and stop playing ranger. That was in 2004 or 5 ish.

[Urteil]

Absolutely.

[Meyi]

Please don't nerf. THF has never really had a time to shine and I think it really deserves this. I'd much rather see all the other jobs boosted up to this level, rather than see THF be nerfed.