So now what?

[Zekander]

Now that SMN finally has Hastega II (along with a slew of other moderately useful buffs) is RDM still needed for anything?

As far as I can tell, without Haste II, RDM only uses now are as a sub par stun gun (when you can't find a SCH), Flurry II in RNG parties (though it is often more effective to simply add another RNG), and for debuffs (which have always had dubious utility).

I haven't noticed it yet, but it seems obvious that people will start preferring SMN over RDM for buffing parties, especially considering that a well geared SMN can easily deal more damage then a RDM can in addition to buffing the party.

So what happens now? Is there anything we can do to ensure RDM stays a viable party member, or do we just let it slide into solo obscurity?

[Tennotsukai]

I'm betting that SE will come out with new spells and abilities for rdm via jp's. Their way of fixing jobs.

[Zekander]

Any ideas on what those spells and/or abilities could be? ^^

[Jile]

A diffusion-style one minute /JA would be a nice start, PhalanxII-ga / HasteII-ga in effect would be nice.

[Zekander]

SE seems pretty adamant about not giving RDM aoe capabilities, so while it would be nice, it's highly unlikely.

Honestly I don't know what would make RDM desirable in parties. Some new, unique enfeebles would be nice, but enfeebles are rarely useful enough to warrant a party slot.

Personally I would like to see some more melee capability, but again, that's not gonna help us get into parties.

[Shirai]

Changing Temper so that it can be casted on party members would already be a great help... ಠ_ಠ

[dasva]

Giving us debuffs that are anywhere near as powerful as pretty much every other job that has debuffs would also help... especially considering how our sp2 only helps us land a debuff.

Changing all of our self only buffs into either AoE or party buffs would help too considering almost all of our self only buffs can be AoEd by someone else

Maybe some item(s) that vastly increase potency of buffs/debuffs similar to brd or geo or even cor has now

[Olor]

A diffusion-style one minute /JA would be a nice start, PhalanxII-ga / HasteII-ga in effect would be nice.

RDM can have diffusion when blus get composure. Also Diffusion is on a 10 minute timer :(

[Protey]

Now that SMN finally has Hastega II (along with a slew of other moderately useful buffs) is RDM still needed for anything?

As far as I can tell, without Haste II, RDM only uses now are as a sub par stun gun (when you can't find a SCH), Flurry II in RNG parties (though it is often more effective to simply add another RNG), and for debuffs (which have always had dubious utility).

I haven't noticed it yet, but it seems obvious that people will start preferring SMN over RDM for buffing parties, especially considering that a well geared SMN can easily deal more damage then a RDM can in addition to buffing the party.

So what happens now? Is there anything we can do to ensure RDM stays a viable party member, or do we just let it slide into solo obscurity?



wow, so much doom and gloom. smn still doesn't catch up to what rdm can do. smn hastega2 is for same party only, most people don't want to swap out their whm or cor (hate it when mob is unhittable because hate went onto cor when he dropped) to get that smn in every few minutes. RDM can buff outside of party (not refresh/regen, but the other buffs yes). I'd like to see a smn get hate and tank Podarge when the PLD dies. I'd like to see the smn make it so the melee don't have to put on accuracy gear during Wopket's flash move.

Now i'm not going to downplay smn, they are the best zerg job there is (unless the mob lives longer than smn 1 hour, then sam will catch up). and yes smn has some nifty tricks like being able to get rid of adds real easy. they also have some decent debuffs/buffs. however... having to swap them in all the time is really annoying and most people won't want to do that, not when you can have the outside rdm cast haste2 on you.


edit: and don't downplay how much damage a rdm can do. i do around the same as a mnk in delve (10-14% of wopket for instance).

[kylani]

wow, so much doom and gloom. smn still doesn't catch up to what rdm can do. smn hastega2 is for same party only, most people don't want to swap out their whm or cor (hate it when mob is unhittable because hate went onto cor when he dropped) to get that smn in every few minutes. RDM can buff outside of party (not refresh/regen, but the other buffs yes). I'd like to see a smn get hate and tank Podarge when the PLD dies. I'd like to see the smn make it so the melee don't have to put on accuracy gear during Wopket's flash move.

Now i'm not going to downplay smn, they are the best zerg job there is (unless the mob lives longer than smn 1 hour, then sam will catch up). and yes smn has some nifty tricks like being able to get rid of adds real easy. they also have some decent debuffs/buffs. however... having to swap them in all the time is really annoying and most people won't want to do that, not when you can have the outside rdm cast haste2 on you.


edit: and don't downplay how much damage a rdm can do. i do around the same as a mnk in delve (10-14% of wopket for instance).

I love FFXI, but when the fact that RDM can haste outside of a party while another job has to buff then swap out, makes me all kinds of sad/disappointed in the game.

[Zekander]

Yes, I failed to mention that SMN has to be in party to buff while RDM doesn't, but if that's the only thing making RDM more useful then SMN then that is sad...

Any job can tank NMs in delve/incursion/whatever, I do it on WHM all the time. I've never done it on RDM before simply because during normal operation (IE buffing and debuffing) RDM is extremely low hate, and quickly getting your hate up when the tank dies requires spamming Cure IV, which requires your WHM to either be dead or to know ahead of time to let you cure when the tank dies. So this is obviously not a common occurrence.

Finally, you simply cannot use Wopket as an example of RDM damage potential because Wopket is vulnerable to slashing damage (which few other NMs are) so comparing your damage to a MNK on Wopket is severely skewing the results. The fact is that RDM is one of the worst jobs at dealing damage by any means under almost all other circumstances.

[Protey]

Yes, I failed to mention that SMN has to be in party to buff while RDM doesn't, but if that's the only thing making RDM more useful then SMN then that is sad...

Any job can tank NMs in delve/incursion/whatever, I do it on WHM all the time. I've never done it on RDM before simply because during normal operation (IE buffing and debuffing) RDM is extremely low hate, and quickly getting your hate up when the tank dies requires spamming Cure IV, which requires your WHM to either be dead or to know ahead of time to let you cure when the tank dies. So this is obviously not a common occurrence.

Finally, you simply cannot use Wopket as an example of RDM damage potential because Wopket is vulnerable to slashing damage (which few other NMs are) so comparing your damage to a MNK on Wopket is severely skewing the results. The fact is that RDM is one of the worst jobs at dealing damage by any means under almost all other circumstances.

why is it sad? they both have utility. rdm is just preferred because they don't have to swap into the DD party.

and no, not any job can tank NMs in delve. try having a BRD or a COR tanking an NM... they'll die very shortly. it's also not good for most jobs to tank because that move that Podarge does that kills the PLD? yea it can kill just about everyone else. When it hits you for damage, it will gain TP. A RDM can pretty much not give any TP whatsoever waiting for that PLD to recover.

I don't know why you think RDM is extremely low hate... can't count how many times I have taken hate from NMs in delve. Do a 7k WS that has a 18k SC... hate city. Got to say... <3 Sanguine Blade for curing myself.

RDM is not one of the worst jobs at dealing damage by any means under almost all other circumstances. I think you don't play the job or don't know how to play it effectively. RDM has this sword WS known as Requiescat that bypasses physical damage resistances. We destroy NMs that normal DD have a hard time with. Go try out CDC too. RDM is doing some great damage with the latest update.

Another thing... smn enfeebles and buffs are limited to at best about once every 35 seconds for each. RDM has no such limitation.

[Zekander]

So you sub WAR i'm guessing, since RDM has no native access to Sanguine Blade. Any time Requiscat would have a use, a MNK with Formless Strikes would have it dead before you got TP ready, not to mention the fact that many other jobs also have access to this weaponskill. Yes the latest update helped RDM considerably, but it also helped many other jobs (some more then others, hi2u Rudra's), but I'll concede that RDM has moved up, before the update I would say that RDM was considerably worse then WHM for melee DD. However, club WS didn't get as much of a boost as sword WS did so now RDM is comfortably leading WHM and GEO, but still lags far behind most other jobs. Not that I even want RDM to be a prime DD mind you, I simply want RDM melee to be an accepted option. I would love for there to be a reason for RDM to be on the front lines other then direct damage.

Not sure how you are getting those WS numbers on anything stronger then trash mobs. Guessing you were fully buffed by at least a BRD, meaning you were in the main party taking up that slot that you say SMNs have no right to. Also in order to make that SC you need to rely on another player to open for you, not that that is hard but other jobs can make their own skillchains (hello mr.BLU).

Your final point is mostly irrelevant since their long buff duration allows SMN to maintain several buffs easily, though admittedly it makes it hard to do both enfeebling and buffing, it does not however hinder their DPS significantly. The only time this might be an issue is when fighting a mob that strips all buffs, but even then not really because it would take a RDM quite some time to rebuff the party anyway. This is also ignoring Avatar's Favor which can supply an additional AOE Temper, Refresh, or other buffs that RDM does not even have access to and is also immune to dispel to boot.

[Protey]

Any time Requiscat would have a use, a MNK with Formless Strikes would have it dead before you got TP ready.

This is blatantly false. Have you ever done delve?



RDM is comfortably leading WHM and GEO, but still lags far behind most other jobs. What do you consider lagging far behind? On average RDM does 80-85% the damage of a mnk in delve (not just wopket). Are we going to have #s like zomg koga sam? not even close. Let's see what other jobs we can compare to: PLD - RDM clearly wins, though PLD should be around the same damage if they didn't have to perform their job. BRD - with rudras brd should be pulling ahead. BLM - RDM ahead unless the mob is weak to magic damage and doesn't have high magic evasion. SCH - a 2hr SCH will probably pull ahead with that massive DoT they can do assuming NM isn't resistant. BST - hard to tell, I don't party with BST, lol, but I'm thinking it should be somewhat close. PUP - does less than a mnk, so should be a little bit closer probably 85-90%. COR - hard to tell... usually COR is shooting in the back, though I have seen a melee COR; typically not that great of a DDer, but like RDM can be if work at it, however kind of hard for them to do damage as they need both melee and ranged buffs unless they are just sitting in the back shooting. I'm going to say about even assuming they get the buffs they need, though they'll pull ahead on piercing weak mobs. BLU - the other sword wielder... zerging an NM the BLU will win for sure as their JAs promote this well. Otherwise they are slightly ahead of RDM. RUN, like PLD will do less damage than a RDM unless it doesn't have to tank and just focus on DD. DRG, RNG, THF, DNC, WAR, NIN, DRK - clearly these jobs will outperform a RDM... the degree is up for debate as it is dependent on the mob and resistances it possesses if any at all. So I ask again... what do you consider lagging far behind? And I will also say this.... a live RDM will outperform a dead DD (assuming the mob isn't almost dead).


Not that I even want RDM to be a prime DD mind you, I simply want RDM melee to be an accepted option. I would love for there to be a reason for RDM to be on the front lines other then direct damage.

It already is accepted... at least whenever I go RDM it is. Maybe you haven't proven yourself so the people you roll with don't accept it? What other reason is there to be on the front lines other than to do direct damage? I understand WHM being there on Ircinraq for the sleepga it does and hate reset, I also understand the GEO buff, but other than that people are on the front lines to do damage.


Not sure how you are getting those WS numbers on anything stronger then trash mobs. Guessing you were fully buffed by at least a BRD, meaning you were in the main party taking up that slot that you say SMNs have no right to.

Your analysis is incorrect. 99% of the time I am not in the main party. The BRD has to go to each party to buff anyway, so might as well get DD buffs while there. And also is why I do less damage than my potential as I don't have a dedicated WHM. I have to cure myself. I have to spam remedies to remove paralysis (which sucks if it gets paralyzed over and over). I have to waste melee time to use Panaceas. So even with all this I still put out good damage (between 10-14% of delve bosses, and no, not just wopket).


Your final point is mostly irrelevant since their long buff duration allows SMN to maintain several buffs easily, though admittedly it makes it hard to do both enfeebling and buffing, it does not however hinder their DPS significantly. The only time this might be an issue is when fighting a mob that strips all buffs, but even then not really because it would take a RDM quite some time to rebuff the party anyway. This is also ignoring Avatar's Favor which can supply an additional AOE Temper, Refresh, or other buffs that RDM does not even have access to and is also immune to dispel to boot.

I can recast haste2 about every 5 seconds, so I don't think that is really quite some time, though for the last one casted on I can see that time with it down can seem like forever. And your argument about buff duration on SMN buffs is irrelevant because they have to wait 35+ seconds for each buff, and if the fight lasts longer than the 4? minutes of the buff (obviously buff duration is dependent on how much smn skill the particular smn has, but also the more buffs that are on the party, the shorter duration the ones that are already on will have left) that means the SMN has to stay in the main party. and who wants to keep the smn in the main party when it is taking up the slot of a DD? Also your argument about avatar's favor.... it goes away when your avatar dies, which will happen a lot as almost everything high end does aoe damage.

[Selindrile]

Protey, while I don't completely disagree with you, I have several nitpicks:

Requiescat is rarely actually useful after the CDC buffs, there's a few situations, but, they're few and far between, often you're better off with CDC even accounting for the reductions, though I agree, on these situations, RDM meleeing with Requiescat can be useful.

Can't say I've heard any numbers I felt were concrete enough to say how much a Rdm does VS other melee, that said, they can certainly do enough damage to consider meleeing worthwhile, however, the question is "Does this melee damage justify the detriment to your other jobs?" obviously this depends on the NM, as you have different responsibilities.

Not everyone swaps bards all the time, few people seem to these days, or very frequently in my experience, Rdm solo in the off party, only swaps to give march for the Delve1 boss, if your group does, more power to you, but don't expect an unbuffed Rdm to do as much.

Delve1: You're probably stunning, people bring a Rdm because they can stun solo and also haste2 and dia3, maybe refresh, and handle Mata/other specific debuffs on certian mobs, saving a party slot/bard buff slot. Meleeing may interfere with your stunning duties, especially if selectively stunning, I wouldn't do it, but if you feel it's worth it, more power to you. On stun-not-crucial mobs, sure, why not.

Delve2: Haste2/Dia3/Frazzle2/Distract2, specific nukes on specific mobs, debuff removal, on some of these mobs I'd prioritize missing aoe debuffs and removing them from others, something complicated by receiving these debuffs yourself by being on the front line.

Haste2 recast every 5 seconds? With March and without composure, cast on yourself, probably, but cast on someone else and maximizing duration (IE: Abyssea Gear + Composure, probably looking at more like 8~12 seconds)

As for it competing with a party slot with Rdm, situational but it's not a completely foreign concept, Smn could swap parties to keep everyone hastega'd and gives the added bonus of other buffs in certain situations, provides you a great way to deal with trash mobs in Delve (pet sleepga pull) at the cost of Dia3/Distract2/Frazzle2, and a reliable low cooldown stun if that's needed. So not always a viable swap, but situationally, I could see it.

[Zekander]

Selindrile has the right of it, the situation is complicated.

And yes I am prone to exaggeration, but so are you it would seem. You never really answered my question as to how you got those numbers, even on trash mobs and dual wielding seeing a 7k CDC is fairly rare and a skillchain of more then 200% WS damage even with skillchain bonus from /DNC I've simply never seen.

You have a BRD that is willing to swap parties solely to give you melee buffs, that's great for you, I don't. You have friends who allow you to melee in high end content, that's great for you, I don't. You are most certainly going to rebuff this with 'lulz get better friendz' but you have to realize that 90% of the playerbase do not share your glorified opinion of RDM and I am simply asking that we try to work together to change that.

[Protey]

Delve1: You're probably stunning, people bring a Rdm because they can stun solo and also haste2 and dia3, maybe refresh, and handle Mata/other specific debuffs on certian mobs, saving a party slot/bard buff slot. Meleeing may interfere with your stunning duties, especially if selectively stunning, I wouldn't do it, but if you feel it's worth it, more power to you. On stun-not-crucial mobs, sure, why not.

Delve2: Haste2/Dia3/Frazzle2/Distract2, specific nukes on specific mobs, debuff removal, on some of these mobs I'd prioritize missing aoe debuffs and removing them from others, something complicated by receiving these debuffs yourself by being on the front line.

Haste2 recast every 5 seconds? With March and without composure, cast on yourself, probably, but cast on someone else and maximizing duration (IE: Abyssea Gear + Composure, probably looking at more like 8~12 seconds)

i never go as stunner in delve.

i don't go for maximizing duration on haste2, i do a mix of recast and duration so as to get the buffs up quickly.

[Protey]

Selindrile has the right of it, the situation is complicated.

And yes I am prone to exaggeration, but so are you it would seem. You never really answered my question as to how you got those numbers, even on trash mobs and dual wielding seeing a 7k CDC is fairly rare and a skillchain of more then 200% WS damage even with skillchain bonus from /DNC I've simply never seen.

You have a BRD that is willing to swap parties solely to give you melee buffs, that's great for you, I don't. You have friends who allow you to melee in high end content, that's great for you, I don't. You are most certainly going to rebuff this with 'lulz get better friendz' but you have to realize that 90% of the playerbase do not share your glorified opinion of RDM and I am simply asking that we try to work together to change that.

what food are you using? and i'm /war. Also, we always roll with a 4-song (5 with clarion call) bard. maybe you don't, I don't know the specifics of your situation.

as to counter your argument of 2nd paragraph: tell your brd to stop being lazy; it's not just to give me melee buffs, it's to give the other people in the party their buffs too.

[dasva]

You have a BRD that is willing to swap parties solely to give you melee buffs, that's great for you, I don't. You have friends who allow you to melee in high end content, that's great for you, I don't. You are most certainly going to rebuff this with 'lulz get better friendz' but you have to realize that 90% of the playerbase do not share your glorified opinion of RDM and I am simply asking that we try to work together to change that.
That's partly because 99.99% of them are terribad. I love to melee on rdm but I can count the times I've been in high level content where an rdm meleeing helped the group more than him not meleeing on 0 hands. And almost everytime they did it almost caused a wipe.

[Zekander]

I usually use Sole Sushi for high end content. We only have 3 song bards in our group, and we typically run with 7 so the RDM is the only one in the outside party. And yes, most of RDMs who choose to melee don't know what they are doing, and most of the ones who do know what they are doing feel that meleeing isn't worth it. That is what I would like to change, there will always be bad players, I want to give the good ones more options.

[Protey]

I usually use Sole Sushi for high end content. We only have 3 song bards in our group, and we typically run with 7 so the RDM is the only one in the outside party. And yes, most of RDMs who choose to melee don't know what they are doing, and most of the ones who do know what they are doing feel that meleeing isn't worth it. That is what I would like to change, there will always be bad players, I want to give the good ones more options.

try riverfin soup.

[Glamdring]

rdm, or any mage for that matter, can melee and still perform their duties, although geo and bard have to seriously think about it due to the need for positioning when trying to work buffs. The real barrier isn't the "you're just feeding the mob TP" argument-wth do you think the melee DD are feeding it, milkbones?-it's the lack of durability of mages meleeing. yes, rdm has some sweet damage mitigation spells, but reapplying them means taking time from our normal buff/debuff cycles, and frankly working those cycles keeps us from putting out melee damage a significant part of the time. now, given the lack of durability and the increased chance of interruption from being in melee range-not to mention all the boss mobs with AoE debuff moves like silence, para, terror, etc. it generally isn't worth it for mages to get in the melee groups, even if we can put up good numbers by picking our WS properly for the mob; it also makes us more of an MP sponge than the standard melee DDs. Sure we can try to self-heal, but again that breaks us from our buff/debuff cycle.

I'll readily admit I am not anywhere near a top-flight rdm-of the 12 ilevel 119 jobs I currently have it's about #10 on the priority list for getting gear, and with ilevel gear is of paramount importance. But I still seem to be better off /whm and spamming buffs/debuffs with back-up healing during any downtime-few and far between with our lack of AoE buffing. That's one of the main reasons sch gets preferential treatment over rdm and it seems that is intentional by SE to see that sch keeps it's appeal when designing a pt. with the additional concern of keeping geo relevant it's even less likely that we will get AoE.

What's the answer? damned if I know. The most logical with SE's stated intention of keeping us as buffers/debuffers is to drastically increase the effectiveness of those spells from rdm over other jobs-the trade being we have to cast 6 times to haste a whole pt. and yet they keep worrying that doing so will upset the balance and kill other jobs. Methinks they underestimate the concern of pt designers about that 6 casts to buff the pt issue, it's a lot more of an issue for designers than SE seems to think in my experience.

[Protey]

yes, rdm has some sweet damage mitigation spells, but reapplying them means taking time from our normal buff/debuff cycles, and frankly working those cycles keeps us from putting out melee damage a significant part of the time.

what are you even talking about. there are 4 damage mitigation spells for rdm... protect, shell, phalanx, and stoneskin. Protect/Shell you apply once every what, 40 minutes or so? phalanx you apply same time as you do refresh 2, which is once about every 12 minutes. stoneskin takes all of 2 seconds to apply. being in off party you only have one buff you are doing... either haste 2, or flurry 2. Maybe, if you are bringing an extra mage in your party a refresh2. How do those 4 mitigation spells even remotely come close to taking time from buff/debuff cycles? I don't know about your buff/debuff cycles, but we have this ability called composure, and this gear called empyrean that makes our buffs last longer on others. We also have this trait and gear called fast cast. Most fights will end before your buffs on others even wear off. So other than a couple debuffs, you should be able to melee the entire time.



now, given the lack of durability and the increased chance of interruption from being in melee range-not to mention all the boss mobs with AoE debuff moves like silence, para, terror, etc. it generally isn't worth it for mages to get in the melee groups, even if we can put up good numbers by picking our WS properly for the mob; it also makes us more of an MP sponge than the standard melee DDs. Sure we can try to self-heal, but again that breaks us from our buff/debuff cycle.

lack of durability? are you kidding? rdm is one of the most durable jobs there is. increased chance of interruption? aquaveil is your friend. if you are fighting a mob that does knockback, put your back to the wall. debuffs on you? remedies/panacea. MP sponge? what are you talking about, RDM cures itself. RDM is more durable than standard melee DDs too, so don't know where you are getting that nonsense. How does healing ourselves break buff/debuff? cures takes all of 1 second to cast, or as my favorite, cure myself with sanguine blade.

[Dale]

lack of durability? are you kidding? rdm is one of the most durable jobs there is. increased chance of interruption? aquaveil is your friend. if you are fighting a mob that does knockback, put your back to the wall. debuffs on you? remedies/panacea. MP sponge? what are you talking about, RDM cures itself. RDM is more durable than standard melee DDs too, so don't know where you are getting that nonsense. How does healing ourselves break buff/debuff? cures takes all of 1 second to cast, or as my favorite, cure myself with sanguine blade.

I agree. Anyone who thinks Red Mage is fragile just hasn't explored their defense potential before. They have access to such great gear and spells they can sustain themselves very effectively while still maintaining a healthy offense in the process.

I also agree that melee shouldn't interfere with our buff/debuff cycles. If anything interferes with that, it's going to be using our heals to keep others alive.

[Glamdring]

I was addressing a rdm who is meleeing in a party, not an alliance and still trying to do all the buffer/debuffer roles. a party is not likely to have 2 or 3 buffers/debuffers. and I disagree that all we are cycling is pro, shell, phalanx and stoneskin. I at least am hasting, and/or flurrying the party and refreshing any casting jobs as well as regening on the melees, not to mention, blinding, slowing, paralyzing, dispelling, silencing and dia/bio the mob, the occasional bind and/or gravity, frazzle and/or distract, sleeping adds and back-up healing. If all I was worried about is myself then yes, those 4 spells, plus haste, temper, likely ice spikes and aquaveil would be sufficient, and an enspell 2, generally enblizzard to make my spikes proc more, and of course a refresh 2 on me. but in a party I at least am working my ass off to maximize my contribution-hell, I might even cast a nuke.

I realize this might be a foreign concept to some but there is in fact content that doesn't involve swapping in people to beat it, and there are even rdms who would like to be more than a situational swap guy, in fact a full-fledged, full-time contributing member of the party.

As to damage mitigation when meleeing, um, we get hit a lot unless we are fighting weak prey, aquaveil is stripped by damage-not sure of the exact amount but getting hit will take it down eventually. and of course if we are meleeing in a party then we are mixed in with the DD, who are happily feeding the mob TP which end-game mobs seem to take a perverse joy out of using in AoE TP moves that will be hitting us, and likely stripping our shadows, stoneskin, phalanx and possibly even the aquaveil in 1-2 moves max. If I'm still doing my job for the party it doesn't leave me a whole lot of time to rebuff my defensive spells.

I don't know, maybe you guys only play in content where you swap players in and out, but I just don't see us as being nearly effective in our primary casting role when we are in the mob's grill, even if we can WS for nice effect.

[Protey]

I was addressing a rdm who is meleeing in a party, not an alliance and still trying to do all the buffer/debuffer roles. a party is not likely to have 2 or 3 buffers/debuffers.

name an instance when this happens.


and I disagree that all we are cycling is pro, shell, phalanx and stoneskin.


yes, rdm has some sweet damage mitigation spells, but reapplying them means taking time from our normal buff/debuff cycles, and frankly working those cycles keeps us from putting out melee damage a significant part of the time.

you can disagree all you want, but you are wrong. you said "damage mitigation spells".


I at least am hasting, and/or flurrying the party and refreshing any casting jobs as well as regening on the melees

since when is rdm in the main party? i can count all of the times on 1 hand, unless you are counting back at 75 cap days doing colibri meripo, or are you just talking about exp/cp parties? If by some chance you aren't in an alliance, that means there is only three DD for you to haste. So that isn't taking up much time. nor is the refreshing of the whm. the other slot is most likely a brd.



not to mention, blinding, slowing, paralyzing, dispelling, silencing and dia/bio the mob, the occasional bind and/or gravity, frazzle and/or distract, sleeping adds and back-up healing.

the only time you need to do all that is in alliance content on difficult NMs. For single party do Dia3, if even that. Single party stuff almost everything dies too fast to enfeeble.


If all I was worried about is myself then yes, those 4 spells, plus haste, temper, likely ice spikes and aquaveil would be sufficient, and an enspell 2, generally enblizzard to make my spikes proc more, and of course a refresh 2 on me.

bolded: ok, you can stop talking now. go learn, come back when you have read why those don't go together. you would also do gain STR or DEX, btw. why would you need your spikes to be proccing? are the sam, thf, mnk not alive?



As to damage mitigation when meleeing, um, we get hit a lot unless we are fighting weak prey, aquaveil is stripped by damage-not sure of the exact amount but getting hit will take it down eventually.

why are you tanking? did the sam, thf, mnk die?


and of course if we are meleeing in a party then we are mixed in with the DD, who are happily feeding the mob TP which end-game mobs seem to take a perverse joy out of using in AoE TP moves that will be hitting us, and likely stripping our shadows, stoneskin, phalanx and possibly even the aquaveil in 1-2 moves max.

why are you using shadows on mobs that do AoE? why are you losing phalanx? and aquaveil? you do know there is this thing called casting when you aren't getting hit right? NMs that are doing AoE don't do so every 1/2 a second, they are very slow at it. And what do we have that enables us to cast between those moves? you got it, Fast Cast. Time your spells like you're supposed to. We also have this thing called PDT set, but you will only wear that when the other DD are. now here's the thing.... if you are on the front lines you are just like the other DD that need to get cured. So what does that mean? the WHM is casting curaga! That whm isn't spending even one more mp on you.


If I'm still doing my job for the party it doesn't leave me a whole lot of time to rebuff my defensive spells.

suck less and you will.


I don't know, maybe you guys only play in content where you swap players in and out, but I just don't see us as being nearly effective in our primary casting role when we are in the mob's grill, even if we can WS for nice effect.

The only jobs I know of that get swapped out are BRD/COR/GEO. why do you have this whacked notion that casting is our primary role? we are ALL roles whenever we want to be. Most of the time we do not need to cast. You cast your buffs before fighting an NM, cast a couple debuffs that are appropriate for that NM, and spend the rest of the time meleeing. If something goes wrong, you switch roles.