Two-Handed WS Update?

[Unctgtg]

Sorry if this is somewhere else so correct me if I am wrong. Well with the huge boost to basically a lot of 1 handed WSs to completely take two handed weapons out of the game, was just wondering when we will be seeing our update?

[Mitruya]

And fixing Drakesbane ... in fact I'm not sure if DRG benefitted at all from the last WS update.

[Tennotsukai]

Poor drg...Idc about war or run, and I believe sam needs no more buffs. I really think something needs done about drakesbane.

[dasva]

I wouldn't really say 1hd as much as a couple of swd and dagger ws. Axe and club and kat overall dmg barely budged. Mostly meh ws got upgraded to be near the top and the tops got like 2% increase. This update was incredibly disproportionate.

That said swd and dagger ws are really just more on par with the good 2hd ws (read gswd gkt ws) it's just cdc can spike thanks to crits and thf can and will save to 2000-3000 and force crit it and wear + crit dmg inflating the numbers but lowering frequency.

And as already said sam is too buff as is. It does almost as much at 1000 tp and constantly does self 5 step skillchains for massive dmg which you can't really do much about to balance other DDs to that unless you undo the skillchain update. Or you first give other weapons better skillchain elements (gkt is the only weapon that has a ws of each of the lvl 2 elements heck a lot only even have 2 preventing doing more than 2 step skillchains) AND balance the amount of tp gain/save tp between jobs. Give save tp weapons for everyone!

[Atomic_Skull]

Crie moar plz 2H tears are delicious.

[detlef]

Crie moar plz 2H tears are delicious.Coming from the world's biggest crybaby? Haha.

[jbtexan]

raising the ws dmg for dagger is one thing, but SE basically made rundras storm stupidly, pathetically, retardedly OP. i just watched a group of thfs take achuka down in less than 5 mins spamming RS with sc. there needs to be a balance there and its not there. even sam has limits for a reason.

[Ramzi]

raising the ws dmg for dagger is one thing, but SE basically made rundras storm stupidly, pathetically, retardedly OP. i just watched a group of thfs take achuka down in less than 5 mins spamming RS with sc. there needs to be a balance there and its not there. even sam has limits for a reason.

LOL what limits does SAM have? They can do 3-4 Fudo in the time it takes THF to build TP for a Rudra.

[Ulth]

raising the ws dmg for dagger is one thing, but SE basically made rundras storm stupidly, pathetically, retardedly OP. i just watched a group of thfs take achuka down in less than 5 mins spamming RS with sc. there needs to be a balance there and its not there. even sam has limits for a reason.

lol Achuka? people were killing him in under 5 minutes long before the dagger update. This is nothing new. Hurkan might go down in 5 minutes now though, bird being weak to piercing after all. But to me that is a good thing, tired of people bitching about how supposedly hard he is.

[Byrth]

If you have remotely competent support, Hurkan has been a 5 minute fight ever since the last colonization changes. He does very little damage, takes a lot of damage, and it's easy to drop his aura if you have a lot of melee on him.

[dasva]

Not sure I'd call thfs waiting for 1750 tp "spamming" ws especially if comparing it to sams actually spamming

[Selindrile]

And waiting for JAs to be up often enough, that said, when they're doinitrite and have party coordination, they're outparsing said Sams on most targets, I'm not opposed to that, just saying they are admittedly ahead of the game, damage wise.

[Camate]

As the one-handed weapon adjustments just took place very recently, we would like to monitor the balance between them and two-handed weapons for a while before we look into two-handed weapon adjustments.

Furthermore, as mentioned during Freshly Picked Vana’diel 14 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45544-Freshly-Picked-Vana-diel-14-Digest?p=535925&viewfull=1#post535925), the team would first like to prioritize pet and elemental magic adjustments.

[Olor]

the team would first like to prioritize pet and elemental magic adjustments.


Oh my, thank you thank you thank you. Please think of people doing 35K damage weapon skills when you make these adjustments. Doing 500-1000 damage on a 30+ second timer with my crappy bunny is not going to net me a party slot. Especially since axe doesn't have a good WS like sword and dagger

:(

[Jile]

As the one-handed weapon adjustments just took place very recently, we would like to monitor the balance between them and two-handed weapons for a while before we look into two-handed weapon adjustments.

I'm glad that by the wording of that, the main focus is adjusting up the dmg on two handed weapons rather than undoing the glorious boost to dagger. Thanks! :)



the team would first like to prioritize pet and elemental magic adjustments.

While making these pet-adjustments please take another look at those 'new' foods that were made. I'm sure they were intended to give far more benefits to pets than the previous foods but they're a step in the wrong direction, worse than previous foods by far.

[Finuve]

As the one-handed weapon adjustments just took place very recently, we would like to monitor the balance between them and two-handed weapons for a while before we look into two-handed weapon adjustments.

Furthermore, as mentioned during Freshly Picked Vana’diel 14 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45544-Freshly-Picked-Vana-diel-14-Digest?p=535925&viewfull=1#post535925), the team would first like to prioritize pet and elemental magic adjustments.
why do you have to monitor balance when the math alone will handle it for you...many 1 handed and 2 handed jobs are still completely weak, scythe for instance is still garbage, and everyone still pales compared to SAM

[Ulth]

Oh my, thank you thank you thank you. Please think of people doing 35K damage weapon skills when you make these adjustments. Doing 500-1000 damage on a 30+ second timer with my crappy bunny is not going to net me a party slot. Especially since axe doesn't have a good WS like sword and dagger

:(

I love how these reported numbers of rudra's keep getting higher and higher it's like some sort of hysteria. I admit I have has some fun built to 3000tp and stacked a rudra's storm with sneak attack and assassin's charge to hit numbers like that, but it isn't the average more like an outlier.

[Olor]

I love how these reported numbers of rudra's keep getting higher and higher it's like some sort of hysteria. I admit I have has some fun built to 3000tp and stacked a rudra's storm with sneak attack and assassin's charge to hit numbers like that, but it isn't the average more like an outlier.

I wasn't just talking about rudras, I am talking about other DDs and massive skillchain damage (my bunny currently can't even open a skill chain with its 750 damage foot kick)... also... I'd happily take any abilities that allowed me to hit anywhere near those numbers... heck I'd just be over the moon for some method of even getting 20K spike damage, I'd stack abilities all day for that... Sorry but for a pure DD (BST has no other function) we sure suck at DDing. I can hit my one hour and if my pet doesn't get terrored or paralyzed I might be able to get 5K damage out of it... that's if I am doing nothing at all but hitting my JA... meaning my own damage is negligible to non-existant.

Whatever number you want to use for Rudras I'd love to be able to get the same unstacked damage with my axes... it's currently not happening. I am very happy for thf and dnc that they got a boost... anyway, I don't see why you are complaining that people are mentioning outlier numbers... they happen. We know they happen... either way I am not getting anywhere near those numbers on bst ever even in ideal conditions.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the devs to keep that kind of spike damage in mind when they look at my pets especially since (Like sneak attack etc) their abilities are limited by timers, so even if my bunny was doing 15K foot kicks, it would still be fairly negligible in terms of overall damage that other jobs can put out in the same amount of time.

What I don't want to see is a 10 per cent boost and then calling it a day when others got MASSIVE improvements.

[Alhanelem]

I'm glad that by the wording of that, the main focus is adjusting up the dmg on two handed weapons rather than undoing the glorious boost to dagger. ThanksYou're reading too far into that. Largely because it is in no way a promise that they arent' going to adjust the ridiculously OP Rudra's.

Not every balance problem should be fixed (and in fact most should not) by turning everything else up to match the power of something that is more effective than intended. That's a terrible balancing policy - It leads to severe power creep issues and it is possible that eventually you get to a point where there's simply no room to adjust things upward anymore because of a long chain of buffing everything else to the most powerful thing every time you discover a balance issue.

Nobody likes nerfs, but sometimes they are necessary for good balance.

[dasva]

And waiting for JAs to be up often enough, that said, when they're doinitrite and have party coordination, they're outparsing said Sams on most targets, I'm not opposed to that, just saying they are admittedly ahead of the game, damage wise.

Depends on setup. Sams can do there thing without another DD and in fact another DD will lower there dmg often so comparing a setup with a couple of thfs to one with a sam and another DD yeah thfs win. But I'd imagine sam +5 support jobs vs a couple of thfs and there support might be different

[Afania]

Nobody likes nerfs, but sometimes they are necessary for good balance.

This, I'm not sure why'd everyone enjoy massive dmg boost without scaling up the difficulty of the content. It's not exactly fun to finish the content faster than original design. Fudo is already OP, buffing 2h weapon for even more OP fudo is just....absurd.

[Numquam]

How about old magical BLU spells. I miss spamming Cursed Sphere. :(

[Orestes]

This is very true. The first WS update made current end-game content almost a joke with SAM's. If SE had never touched Fudo, and left SC damage alone, things would've been a lot more balanced overall.

The same could be said for Rudras. It makes no sense why they even touched it.

[Afania]

This is very true. The first WS update made current end-game content almost a joke with SAM's. If SE had never touched Fudo, and left SC damage alone, things would've been a lot more balanced overall.

The same could be said for Rudras. It makes no sense why they even touched it.

To summarize the job buff history in past 2 years:

SE over buffed SAM because every pt used to MNK x3 for everything, since MNK did good dmg and has good survive-ability with high HP. So they said they're buffing every DD jobs to be competitive to MNK. Then they made SAM OP so every pt invite SAM instead of MNK. Then 1h jobs complained about not getting invite as DD so they over buffed THF DNC and BLU as well. SE also over buffed GEO because GEOs complained about the lack of invite.

Every once a while certain jobs gets super OP buff and became bandwagon jobs, I wonder which job gonna win the lottery ticket next.

[Ulth]

To summarize the job buff history in past 2 years:

SE over buffed SAM because every pt used to MNK x3 for everything, since MNK did good dmg and has good survive-ability with high HP. So they said they're buffing every DD jobs to be competitive to MNK. Then they made SAM OP so every pt invite SAM instead of MNK. Then 1h jobs complained about not getting invite as DD so they over buffed THF DNC and BLU as well. SE also over buffed GEO because GEOs complained about the lack of invite.

Every once a while certain jobs gets super OP buff and became bandwagon jobs, I wonder which job gonna win the lottery ticket next.


As the one-handed weapon adjustments just took place very recently, we would like to monitor the balance between them and two-handed weapons for a while before we look into two-handed weapon adjustments.

Furthermore, as mentioned during Freshly Picked Vana’diel 14 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45544-Freshly-Picked-Vana-diel-14-Digest?p=535925&viewfull=1#post535925), the team would first like to prioritize pet and elemental magic adjustments. Are you just not reading posts? Looks like pet jobs are next followed by black mage.

You keep saying OP, but OP compared to what? Oh no now more jobs can be used instead of the only perfect set ups that were allowed before, how will we survive in this terrifying new world.

If the old way was the only job that could be used was mnk, then sam was added, and now thf, dnc, and blu, aren't they taking steps in the right direction?

Also geo has not been over buffed, brd has them beat by a mile.

[Afania]

Also geo has not been over buffed, brd has them beat by a mile.

Tbh I can't continue this job balance discussion with you after reading this statement. Since how you view the word OP seems completely different from mine.

[Ulth]

Tbh I can't continue this job balance discussion with you after reading this statement. Since how you view the word OP seems completely different from mine.

Does OP not mean overpowered to you? If one job has less power than the other how is it overpowered but the other not? Or is your point both brd and geo are overpowered and fucking everything is overpowered and everything needs nerfed, because if that is your point then you should try some higher level content. Maybe hand in some KI and get to incursion level 143.

[Afania]

Does OP not mean overpowered to you? If one job has less power than the other how is it overpowered but the other not? Or is your point both brd and geo are overpowered and fucking everything is overpowered and everything needs nerfed, because if that is your point then you should try some higher level content. Maybe hand in some KI and get to incursion level 143.


I don't really understand what are you trying to say here, and I don't think you get what I mean. Are you trying to say "if you think the NM in endgame content dies too fast you should do incursion 143?". IMO incursion 143 isn't even relevant in this discussion since it doesn't give real reward....AFAIK ilv130 gives better loot/hr.

I also don't understand how'd BRD beat GEO by miles. Idris is probably one of the most OP weapon in this game.



You keep saying OP, but OP compared to what? Oh no now more jobs can be used instead of the only perfect set ups that were allowed before, how will we survive in this terrifying new world.

If the old way was the only job that could be used was mnk, then sam was added, and now thf, dnc, and blu, aren't they taking steps in the right direction?


I didn't say THF DNC BLU shouldn't get invite, they should. But I think WAR and DRK should do more dmg than THF DNC and BLU. I think THF DNC and BLU should be able to get invite without the need to do top dmg, while certain jobs such as WAR DRK MNK SAM gets invite by doing top dmg.

If THF DNC BLU doesn't get invite due to the lack of dmg, then it's dev's job to fix that by giving them useful abilities. But atm WAR DRK seems quite behind other jobs, and they generally don't get invite, unless your friend let you play them if you want to play the personal experience card.

So IMO, that's not the right direction.

I also have to point out, your statement "If the old way was the only job that could be used was mnk, then sam was added," was completely incorrect. Before Fudo update both MNK and SAM were used, after fudo update it was SAM or bust. That fudo update made any none SAM DD less desirable.

[Ulth]

I don't really understand what are you trying to say here, and I don't think you get what I mean. Are you trying to say "if you think the NM in endgame content dies too fast you should do incursion 143?". IMO incursion 143 isn't even relevant in this discussion since it doesn't give real reward....AFAIK ilv130 gives better loot/hr.

I also don't understand how'd BRD beat GEO by miles. Idris is probably one of the most OP weapon in this game.



I didn't say THF DNC BLU shouldn't get invite, they should. But I think WAR and DRK should do more dmg than THF DNC and BLU. I think THF DNC and BLU should be able to get invite without the need to do top dmg, while certain jobs such as WAR DRK MNK SAM gets invite by doing top dmg.

If THF DNC BLU doesn't get invite due to the lack of dmg, then it's dev's job to fix that by giving them useful abilities. But atm WAR DRK seems quite behind other jobs, and they generally don't get invite, unless your friend let you play them if you want to play the personal experience card.

So IMO, that's not the right direction.

Do you think they won't increase the damage of WAR and DRK? You said it yourself that they were increasing the damage of all jobs to be comparable to mnk.

[Afania]

Do you think they won't increase the damage of WAR and DRK? You said it yourself that they were increasing the damage of all jobs to be comparable to mnk.

It's not that I'm worry about they're not buffing WAR and DRK, it's about the relative balance.

Even if they increase WAR and DRK's dmg to MNK lv, it's still not enough. They need to be stronger than THF BLU DNC to deserve a DD spot.

And if they buff WAR DRK stronger than THF BLU DNC, that means current endgame content gets even less challenging(interesting).

Unless ilv goes up by another 50, it seems like a wrong direction to make every content THAT easy.

You can argue that incursion 143 is still hard, but it also doesn't give any meaningful reward since lower lv incursion still drops same loot.

SE should have just nerf fudo/SC dmg/rudra IMO.

[Ulth]

It's not that I'm worry about they're not buffing WAR and DRK, it's about the relative balance.

Even if they increase WAR and DRK's dmg to MNK lv, it's still not enough. They need to be stronger than THF BLU DNC to deserve a DD spot.

And if they buff WAR DRK stronger than THF BLU DNC, that means current endgame content gets even less challenging(interesting).

Unless ilv goes up by another 50, it seems like a wrong direction to make every content THAT easy.

You can argue that incursion 143 is still hard, but it also doesn't give any meaningful reward since lower lv incursion still drops same loot.

SE should have just nerf fudo/SC dmg/rudra IMO.

Why should they be stronger? Do you think feint and conspirator are more beneficial than warcry, blood rage, and tomahawk? Maybe that Provoke is inferior to Accomplice and Collaborator. All jobs have something more to them than just dealing damage, but thf, blu, dnc, war, and drk are all damage dealers.

[Snprphnx]

Considering the 2-Hand update that buffed the crap out of Acc, atk, and WSs occured a LONG time before they did the same for 1-Hands, can we please stop crying over this and let a different job besides SAM win a parse?

[Atomic_Skull]

People need to realize that except for Rudras daggers suck for damage otherwise. They need that damage spike to be competitive with other DD's because their white damage is terrible.

[dasva]

And it's not really that great unstacked

[Atomic_Skull]

And it's not really that great unstacked

The only way to "fix" Rudras the way the 2H crybabies want without screwing over every other job that can use it would be to remove the DEX and AGI bonus from Sneak Attack and Trick Attack (which would also require a complete overhaul of merit and job points) or just take Rudras away from THF.

Only a very skilled, very well equipped THF that has total party cooperation can outparse SAM, and only an average to terrible SAM at that. SAM can just faceroll on the keyboard in AH gear and still win most parses. THF is a highly technical job that has to jump through flaming hoops to put out that kind of damage.

I think the real problem is two handers hate that the joke job of FFXI is now putting up bigger numbers than them even if their overall damage is the same or less.

[Byrth]

No, the DEX and AGI bonus contribute a trivial amount of damage to Rudra's as it is currently. You're free to do the math, but I doubt it would be over 5% of the total damage. Their main benefit is to force a critical hit.

[Atomic_Skull]

No, the DEX and AGI bonus contribute a trivial amount of damage to Rudra's as it is currently. You're free to do the math, but I doubt it would be over 5% of the total damage. Their main benefit is to force a critical hit.

If that is true then DNC/THF is actually better than THF because they have Sneak Attack and Trick Attack in addition to Climactic Flourish.

[Byrth]

Trick Attack doesn't force a crit until THF gains the Assassin trait (level 60) and /THF also doesn't give access to Bully so SA is much less viable.

We can perhaps revisit this epeen contest after Charis Tiara +4 comes out, but for the moment THF is the better skillchain closer (at least with Vajra).

[dasva]

Now if they put the dex/agi bonus onto base dmg like a wsc it would be rather interesting... or they could but the dex/agi bonus into /thf which iirc it was back before NA release. Wont change much but would be funny too see people /thf again lol.

[Ulth]

Now if they put the dex/agi bonus onto base dmg like a wsc it would be rather interesting... or they could but the dex/agi bonus into /thf which iirc it was back before NA release. Wont change much but would be funny too see people /thf again lol.

It would be nice if they did something like that to make the added damage more relevant. Especially since that is two of thf's job point categories. 10/10 job points in it would only give you something like 50 extra damage, which isn't very much in the grand scheme of things. It also makes it pretty pointless to gear for agi when using trick attack. You need something like 10 agi to be worth 1 point of dex at 2000tp.

If they had did something like that they wouldn't have needed to boost rudra's ftp so high in the first place, but they still would have needed to change one of the other ws so there would be a good unstacked dagger ws. However none of this even matters any more, hindsight 20/20 yadda yadda.

[Atomic_Skull]

Now if they put the dex/agi bonus onto base dmg like a wsc it would be rather interesting...

uh..


If this ability is used by a Thief, the next strike will also receive a bonus of 1 base weapon damage for every point of DEX the player has when the attack hits.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sneak_Attack

[Metaking]

dont forget what the gloves do for that as well >.>;

[Ulth]

uh..



http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sneak_Attack

Yeah it says base damage, but it's actually added after the ftp of a weapon skill.

[dasva]

uh..



http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sneak_Attack

Uh....

"For Sneak Attack with Thief main, the calculation is WD = ( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP + DEX"

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage


If it really was just added to base dmg that would basically double the strength of a lot of strong 1 hit ws

[darkhorror]

If they keep Rudra's where it is they should just go back and look at all the RME, Quest, and Merit WS. Use people who know the math of the WS's and how the caps work, knows what gear would be used, and abilities to boost them.