Dagger Weaponskill Damage Increase

[Nebo]

First, let me say THANK YOU. I'm skeptical, but hopeful, that these weaponskills will see a meaningful increase in damage.

In endgame events, with support enhancements, a large bottleneck for Thief weaponskill damage has always been long recast timers for Sneak Attack, Trick Attack & Bully. Additionally, the lead time and at times difficult/impossible to fulfill positional requirements for these abilities drags average WS damage even lower over the course of a fight.

So having weaponskills to unleash that aren't terribly weak (relative to other DDs) without being combined with cumbersome job abilities that were designed based on 2004 grouping mechanics (that are no longer used or relevant) would be a most welcome change.


The potency of the following weapon skills will be increased.

Dancing Edge / Shark Bite / Evisceration / Mercy Stroke / Mordant Rime /
Pyrrhic Kleos / Rudra's Storm / Vorpal Blade / Savage Blade /
Knights of Round / Death Blossom / Expiacion / Rampage / Calamity /
Mistral Axe / Decimation / Onslaught / Bora Axe / Ruinator / Blade: Jin /
Blade : Ku / Blade: Metsu / Blade: Kamu / Blade : Hi / Blade: Shun /
True Strike / Judgement / Hexastrike / Black Halo / Randgrith /
Realmrazer / Exenterator / Chant du Cygne

The TP Bonuses for the following weapons will be increased.

Mandalic Stab / Rudra’s Storm / Savage Blade / Expiacion / Calamity /
Mistral Axe / Blade: Ten / Judgement / Black Halo / Mystic Boon

Bonuses for the following weapon skills that only applied at initial ranks will now be applied to all ranks.

Dancing Edge / Evisceration / Pyrrhic Kleos / Vorpal Blade / Swift Blade /
Rampage / Decimation / Blade: Jin / Blade: Ku / Hexastrike / Exenterator /
Chant du Cygne

The maximum accuracy of one-handed weapons equipped as the main weapon will be increased from 95% to 99%.

Could we possibly get some clarification as to specifically what this means:

Bonuses for the following weapon skills that only applied at initial ranks will now be applied to all ranks.

Is this referring to FTP across all hits? Acc bonus? Crit Bonus? Something else?

[Ulth]

Provided they do the tp bonuses like I think they will, Sneak Attack and Trick Attack timers should be fine. In optimal conditions I get about 2750 tp in 30 seconds which means with my mooncharm I can drop 3000 tp Rudra's with every SA/TA. All they need to do is make it so the ftp at 3000 is 3x the ftp at 1000. I especially hope they make it the case with Mandalic Stab. Eventually I plan on getting around to making a Vajra and want a good reason to have the 3000 tp aftermath.

Evisceration I'm also looking forward to getting a boost. In a lot of cases you don't really have the time to set up a SA/TA ws, like with fodder mobs in delve. It will be nice to have a ws option for them. Also I'm sure it will be nice for soloing, and will shave a couple minutes off my salvage time.

The position thing can be cumbersome. Even more since so many mobs use knockback and bind. I can't tell you how many times I go for a trick attack only to have the mob push the person I was using behind me. It would be nice if flee would overwrite bind, and could not be overwritten by bind. Also if your flee is used with af feet, it should be a higher tier. As is I've tried to use it to overwrite some gravities only for it to fail. Another position problem is because hate caps out and the mob turns to you every time you hit. I know I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but thief could use better enmity control.

[Nebo]

Provided they do the tp bonuses like I think they will, Sneak Attack and Trick Attack timers should be fine. In optimal conditions I get about 2750 tp in 30 seconds which means with my mooncharm I can drop 3000 tp Rudra's with every SA/TA.

I have to disagree about the timers being fine. With all the various forms of haste that can be combined (even solo), 1 WS every 30 seconds....even saving tp to 3000 is unacceptably slow. You would still be holding tp for timers. Apart from that, I have very serious doubts that SE would ever make a 3000 TP rudras = 3x the damage of a 1000 Tp Rudra's.

Imo, the recast time and positional aspect of these abilities needs another look. I might have less of an issue if it was only one of those two...but both?...and combined with pre December 2014 WS damage values? That is pretty unreasonable in today's FFXI landscape.

Perhaps these WS damage increases will make this less of an issue so that dagger WS that aren't combined with Sneak and Trick attack will actually be viable. I remain skeptical....hopeful, but skeptical

[Ulth]

I don't see anything wrong with using a weapon skill every 30 seconds as long as it does about the same damage as the total number of weapon skills another job is using. For example a monk uses his tp at 1000 every time, the thief uses his tp at 3000. Assuming their tp gain rate is similar every time the thief weapon skills the monk would have weaponskilled three times. Only since the thief is using its weapons skill with SA/TA its weapon skill average damage is three times that of a monk's. To me that is fair, and I'm fine with it. The only down side is it's not that useful on the mobs where it does more damage than they have hp. That is where I'm hoping evisceration comes in.

And you can lower the timers on SA/TA but then you wouldn't have 5 into triple attack. It would be nice if they increased the merit cap for that so we could merit all three, but I doubt that will happen. As for the position thing, It would be nice if bully lasted long enough for a second sneak attack; maybe they could add some gear that does this, or do it with job points, but I was hoping the job points would be something like increasing the killer effect. I also would like it if they increased the range of weaponskills a little more since too many players stand right on the edge of combat range, but maybe this will work itself out when the player base finds out thief damage is pretty on point as long as they get all their SA/TA's.

All in all I like how thief works right now. I like waiting and being opportunist. Not only do I wait for my timer to be up but sometimes I wait a little longer to get a darkness skill chain for double damage. I like having to work as part of a team for my damage. I only wish people would work as a team back. Too often do I get someone who moves out of my trick attack, because they can't stand to have me blocking their view of themselves for 5 seconds. Only people who seem okay with it tends to be paladins, because they need all the hate they can get, and bards, because they don't pay enough attention when they go refresh songs.

[Nebo]

I don't see anything wrong with using a weapon skill every 30 seconds as long as it does about the same damage as the total number of weapon skills another job is using. For example a monk uses his tp at 1000 every time, the thief uses his tp at 3000. Assuming their tp gain rate is similar every time the thief weapon skills the monk would have weaponskilled three times.

IN end game situations, with endgame support enhancements, I think there are often many things wrong (dps wise) with only being able to put out a respectable weaponskill once every ~30 seconds. The TP gain and weaponskill ratio you are talking about would also be higher than 3 (DD WS) to 1 (THF SA/TA WS). At the delay reduction cap, many DD's get 1000 TP before the animation for their previous WS is done. You would also be holding TP even at 3000 (lost damage to opportunity cost) to wait for recast timers. THF average WS damage to another DD would not be even 3 to 1 let alone the ratio it would take to catch up to this playstyle.


All in all I like how thief works right now. I like waiting and being opportunist. Not only do I wait for my timer to be up but sometimes I wait a little longer to get a darkness skill chain for double damage.

Waiting to hit Darkness is not double damage for a few reasons. The main problem I find in this point here is the opportunity cost for damage that you are losing by holding TP like this. Which there is nothing wrong with. It's fune to line up, wait and SATA WS go boom to close darkness. That's cool. But in many cases (not always) you are dealing less damage than you could be to do that.

[Ulth]

Weapon skills have animation lock. During those time you do not auto attack. If a DD does get 1000 tp before the animation is over it's because of some sort of regain or save tp, so by many DD's you mean just SAM. And yeah I know that the example I used was not the actual ratios, it was an example. It would be some coincidence if the actual data had nice whole numbers like that. As for skill chaining I did say sometimes. Sometimes there are a bunch of cor, and I only have to wait like a second or two before a Leaden Salute goes off. I keep my eyes on their tp if one is coming up I'll wait, if not I won't. If there are nothing but mnk, sams, and rngs I will just go. Maybe I will get lucky and it will be a distortion. As for my play style I like to think I do alright, I expect to do even better after the update.

[Nebo]

Weapon skills have animation lock. During those time you do not auto attack. If a DD does get 1000 tp before the animation is over it's because of some sort of regain or save tp, so by many DD's you mean just SAM.

Wepoonskill lock does not last the entirety of most weaponskill animations. You do autoattack during them, espcially at high haste values, but they don't get anmiated. It's not just due to regain and save tp but also due x-hit builds at the delay reduction cap (endgame buffs). It's not just SAM that can do this.

[Roja323]

Its honestly semantics:

1) While you ws there is a period of time were attack turns off
2) During some ws, your animation will continue after #1 is over, at which point you will start swinging again

By and large, though you need a save tp weapon, max haste (or just high haste), and a few other things.

It is not incorrect to say this is mostly a sam thing though. As a monk/war with homestead, on a reive, i have 400 save tp, max haste, and crap tons of da/ta/qa, and by the time i finish my VS animation im usually at 6-700 tp already, but its not physically possible for jobs like mnk or thf to get enough tp in that brief 1-2 second window to be ready to ws again. A sam with tsu? Sure, an x hit build war or drk or drg , maybe (if they use homestead weapons on a reive).

[Ulth]

I have very serious doubts that SE would ever make a 3000 TP rudras = 3x the damage of a 1000 Tp Rudra's.

Looks like you were right. They didn't make the ftp at 3000 x3 the amount at 1000... they made it x3.25.

[Nebo]

Looks like you were right. They didn't make the ftp at 3000 x3 the amount at 1000... they made it x3.25.

I have never been more happy to be wrong.

[Grekumah]

As some of you may have already noticed in the version update notes, Dancing Edge, Exenterator, and Chant du Cygne were removed from the list of weapon skills that received potency increases. The original plan was to both increase their potency as well as have their bonuses apply to the each hit of the weapon skill; however, after testing this further the team came to the conclusion that only making the latter adjustment would reach the improvements they wanted and they decided to not improve the potency as well.

Apologies that this was not clarified beforehand and we appreciate your understanding.

[Selindrile]

Yeah... I mean... that's.... but.. Rudra's Storm.... and... now... Thf....

Sad BLU is Sad. :(

[Byrth]

As some of you may have already noticed in the version update notes, Dancing Edge, Exenterator, and Chant du Cygne were removed from the list of weapon skills that received potency increases. The original plan was to both increase their potency as well as have their bonuses apply to the each hit of the weapon skill; however, after testing this further the team came to the conclusion that only making the latter adjustment would reach the improvements they wanted and they decided to not improve the potency as well.

Apologies that this was not clarified beforehand and we appreciate your understanding.

Thanks for this note. Additionally, it seems that True Strike and Blade: Kamu were not affected by the patch despite still being on the list in the update notes. Was this also intentional?

[Tidis]

Yeah... I mean... that's.... but.. Rudra's Storm.... and... now... Thf....

Sad BLU is Sad. :(

Rudra's is still mediocre, don't dress it up to be stronger than it actually is.

Shh...don't make them think it needs a nerf!

[Protey]

Yeah... I mean... that's.... but.. Rudra's Storm.... and... now... Thf....

Sad BLU is Sad. :(

why sad? on RDM last night I was doing 8k CDCs with 18k darkness SC to Largantua. A BLU should be able to put out similar #s.

edit: that was without songs/rolls/GEO either. Hate being in the outside party, lol.


Inb4 shouts to nerf RDM.

[Ramzi]

why sad? on RDM last night I was doing 8k CDCs with 18k darkness SC to Largantua. A BLU should be able to put out similar #s.

edit: that was without songs/rolls/GEO either. Hate being in the outside party, lol.


Inb4 shouts to nerf RDM.

What gears are you using to pull off 8k CDC with RDM? Does Temper affect CDC damage? My BLU is decently geared (not top end, but not mediocre either) and I was only doing 4-6k CDC on VT mobs in Doh Gates the other night.

Or is Largantua just weak?

[Protey]

What gears are you using to pull off 8k CDC with RDM? Does Temper affect CDC damage? My BLU is decently geared (not top end, but not mediocre either) and I was only doing 4-6k CDC on VT mobs in Doh Gates the other night.

Or is Largantua just weak?

since i didn't have buffs i was in full accuracy gear. i probably just got a couple DA procs on the two or three 8k CDCs I did. I know when I tested in normal WS gear on mandies outside of adoulin i was averaging between 6.5-7k

[Ramzi]

Ok and those mandies are EP so a bit different than the mobs I was fighting. I saw some RDM melee setups on FFXIAH and there does appear to be some decent gear available for RDM- not as good as BLU has but ok. With Natures meditation, and the better gear, and sword skill, a RDM really shouldn't be keeping up with a blu.

I think the reason that poster was sad was because people are reporting 12-24k Rudras where we are lucky to get a 10k CDC under optimal conditions. THF's are doing it without breaking a sweat. I haven't tested my THF yet but I will this weekend.

[Protey]

Ok and those mandies are EP so a bit different than the mobs I was fighting. I saw some RDM melee setups on FFXIAH and there does appear to be some decent gear available for RDM- not as good as BLU has but ok. With Natures meditation, and the better gear, and sword skill, a RDM really shouldn't be keeping up with a blu.

I think the reason that poster was sad was because people are reporting 12-24k Rudras where we are lucky to get a 10k CDC under optimal conditions. THF's are doing it without breaking a sweat. I haven't tested my THF yet but I will this weekend.

well, SA/TA does help with those rudras #s.

[Ulth]

Yeah unstacked and at 1000tp rudra's storm does 6k to 10k and I think that mostly has to do with extra hits. The only reason it's so powerful is because of thf and dnc's unique job abilities that forces crits, and it's even more powerful since it only gets better with more tp allowing us to negate the draw backs of our timers. This effectively fixes the thing we have been bitching about since abyssea. Also it should be noted that those huge 24k+ rudras are not done at 1000tp, those are somewhere about 2000-3000 tp area. Unless that thf has a vajra in which case they have earned that crazy damage.

[Selindrile]

My CDCs are far from bad, 6k~12k I'd say though getting over 10k is rare, I'm just sad because Thf pulled so far ahead, and we didn't follow up there with them, it's not like Blu is bad, it's pretty close to Sam atm, when both are geared similarly, and not counting SC damage. But Thfs with gear a bit behind me now, are pulling ahead of everyone pretty handily, not the end of the world, just wish we would've skyrocketed like them.

Is just some envy, I saw a 30k Rudra's, and was like, I wanna do that ; ;, lol.

[Ataraxia]

As some of you may have already noticed in the version update notes, Dancing Edge, Exenterator, and Chant du Cygne were removed from the list of weapon skills that received potency increases. The original plan was to both increase their potency as well as have their bonuses apply to the each hit of the weapon skill; however, after testing this further the team came to the conclusion that only making the latter adjustment would reach the improvements they wanted and they decided to not improve the potency as well.

Apologies that this was not clarified beforehand and we appreciate your understanding.


Keep up the good work Grekumah. All people that play Thief and Dancer really love this update. =)
Paladin and Blue Mage is super fun to play now and more powerful than before.

[Ataraxia]

30k Rudra's storm is at 3000 tp i think the only job that can reach that high of damage is Thief with mythic dagger.

Dasva post in bg-wiki.

Expiciaon: D130 weapon. 22 fstr. 210 str. 221 dex 226 int. 175 wsc. 327 base dmg w/ sa

1000 TP: 3851, 3730, 3772, 3898, 3806

2000: 9543, 9673, 9397, 9619, 9341

3000: 12541, 12434, 11845, 12400, 11973

Savage blade: D130 weapon. 22 fstr. 210 str 174 mnd.. 192 wsc. 344 base dmg w/ sa

1000 TP: 4197, 4037, 4294, 4246, 4210

2000: 11024, 10703, 11016, 10844, 10685

3000: 14592, 14660, 14248, 14356, 14676


Savage Blade use to suck so bad but now it's good.

[Protey]

Savage blade: D130 weapon. 22 fstr. 210 str 174 mnd.. 192 wsc. 344 base dmg w/ sa

1000 TP: 4197, 4037, 4294, 4246, 4210

2000: 11024, 10703, 11016, 10844, 10685

3000: 14592, 14660, 14248, 14356, 14676


Savage Blade use to suck so bad but now it's good.

with #s like that, you will do more overall damage saving to 3000 TP (2750 with moonshade), as 14.5k from 3000 TP is about 3.45 times greater than 4.2k from 1000TP

[Byrth]

Well, those were all single-hits because they were SA'd. In reality Savage Blade is 2 hits single wielding or 3 hits dual wielding + additional attacks. Best bang for your buck is actually 2000 TP (10.25 fTP), but even that waypoint is questionably better than 1.0:
4 + 2 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate) = fTP per 1000 TP at 1000 TP
(10.25 + 2 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate))/2 = fTP per 1000 TP at 2000 TP
6 + 2*X = 6.125 + X
X = 0.125

So if you are Dual Wielding and have some combination of DA, TA, and QA that gets you at least an extra 0.125 swings per hand, you are better off WSing at 1000 TP than 2000 TP. Also, Moonshade Earring will skew this even further towards 1000TP, as you can see below.



Rudra's is even more heavily weighted towards the 2000 TP anchorpoint:
6 + 1 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate) = fTP per 1000 TP at 1000 TP
(15 + 1 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate))/2 = fTP per 1000 TP at 2000 TP

7 + 2*X = 8 + X
X = 100%
So you would need +100% Multi-attack to make it better to WS at 1000 TP than 2000 TP. Also, this is assuming equal weighting between the hits which is only true for unstacked Rudra's. Stacked Rudra's will even more lopsidedly favor 2000 TP.

The story changes with Moonshade factored in:
8.25 + 1 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate) = fTP per 1000 TP at 1000 TP with Moonshade
(15 + 1 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate))/1.75 = fTP per 1000 TP at 1750 TP with Moonshade

9.25 + 2*X = 16/1.75 + 2*X/1.75
6*X/7 = -12.5%
Because Moonshade offers such a significant fTP boost at 1000 TP, it shifts the balance greatly in favor of WSing sooner.



It should be noted that the above analysis ignores the time that it takes to WS. If you WS less frequently, you are subject to less WS delay. When I just plug everything in to the spreadsheet, I get optimal net DPS at 1606 TP (Dancer vs. Tojil) with Moonshade and Terpsichore AM3.
1000 TP = 1807.9
1606 TP = 1895.4
1750 TP = 1864.5
There is only a 5% DPS difference between 1000 and 1606 TP, however, while previously the difference would have been massive. These WSs made our jobs easier to play, and lazy DDs won't be as heavily penalized as previously.

[Vinedrai]

Rudra's is even more heavily weighted towards the 2000 TP anchorpoint:
6 + 1 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate) = fTP per 1000 TP at 1000 TP
(15 + 1 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate))/2 = fTP per 1000 TP at 2000 TP

7 + 2*X = 8 + X
X = 100%
So you would need +100% Multi-attack to make it better to WS at 1000 TP than 2000 TP. Also, this is assuming equal weighting between the hits which is only true for unstacked Rudra's. Stacked Rudra's will even more lopsidedly favor 2000 TP.

The story changes with Moonshade factored in:
8.25 + 1 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate) = fTP per 1000 TP at 1000 TP with Moonshade
(15 + 1 (DW) + 2*X (2*Multi-attack rate))/1.75 = fTP per 1000 TP at 1750 TP with Moonshade

9.25 + 2*X = 16/1.75 + 2*X/1.75
6*X/7 = -12.5%
Because Moonshade offers such a significant fTP boost at 1000 TP, it shifts the balance greatly in favor of WSing sooner.

So basically should we ws at 1000 unstacked and 1750 stacked or 1000 regardless of SA/JA if we have moonshade?

[Byrth]

For Rudra's, you should do something between 1000 and 1750 unstacked. If you're going to stack it, you should probably do 1750 and shouldn't feel bad about TPing a bit over waiting on timers, particularly if you're going to be able to skillchain.

If you are playing cooperatively with other players and attribute all the skillchain damage to whoever closes it, THF is the best DD in the game right now.

[Ulth]

My CDCs are far from bad, 6k~12k I'd say though getting over 10k is rare, I'm just sad because Thf pulled so far ahead, and we didn't follow up there with them, it's not like Blu is bad, it's pretty close to Sam atm, when both are geared similarly, and not counting SC damage. But Thfs with gear a bit behind me now, are pulling ahead of everyone pretty handily, not the end of the world, just wish we would've skyrocketed like them.

Is just some envy, I saw a 30k Rudra's, and was like, I wanna do that ; ;, lol.

CDC > Sinker Drill > Rudra's

blu + thf = bff

[Nebo]

My CDCs are far from bad, 6k~12k I'd say though getting over 10k is rare, I'm just sad because Thf pulled so far ahead, and we didn't follow up there with them, it's not like Blu is bad, it's pretty close to Sam atm, when both are geared similarly, and not counting SC damage. But Thfs with gear a bit behind me now, are pulling ahead of everyone pretty handily, not the end of the world, just wish we would've skyrocketed like them.

Is just some envy, I saw a 30k Rudra's, and was like, I wanna do that ; ;, lol.

A lot of people crying nerf (not saying you are but this is a growing trend and its scaring me lol) for Rudra's I think are just eyballing that singular 30k number and feeling like THFs are crapping those out non stop. Unstacked vs VT Woh Gates bats, for example, at ~1000TP even with /WAR, RCB and RDM/BRD Trusts is in the range of 6-9K average.

To get a 30k Rudra a THF has hold TP, use JA's with recast timers and fulfill positional requirements. What this update did was make it more worth while to do this, rather than being punished for it. Before, a stacked ws did roughly the same damage as a comparably geared DD WS which, imo, is pretty unreasonable given the hoops you have to jump through to make them work.

Now THF has a decent unstacked WS and one that actually performs well as legit spike damage and a meaningful skillchain closer when combined with our JA's. A change like this is exactly what the job needed, imo.

[Selindrile]

All fair, and my complaint is more of a wishful whine, and admittedly so, I just am envious seeing Thfs with weaker gear than I outparse me, that's all, but it's not like I'm crying foul, not really, Thfs with better gear have been outparsed by people with worse gear for a long time previously, fair is fair, I just wish we would've rode the wave up as high as Thf did, s'all.

I'm not calling for a nerf, or even a CDC buff really, that's just casual envy talking.

My actual complaints and desires focus more around Blu's utility, reducing set point costs so we can bring utility to a group along with our DD setup, enhancing buff durations so we don't have to reapply so insanely often what would otherwise be good buffs, etc.

[dasva]

Yeah at 1000 tp rudras not only isn't that great but isn't the best dagger ws. That said it's buff was still a lot better than what club/axe got. Swd was at least a decent upgrade

[Tidis]

At 1000tp I'd say it still beats the likes of Evisceration and Extenerator, I don't have the mythic or relic WS, laziness ftw but I assume Mercy Stroke is ahead of Rudra's at 1000TP but Rudra's quickly overtakes it as you approach 1750tp (or 2000 for you non TP bonus Moonshaders).

[Nebo]

At 1000tp I'd say it still beats the likes of Evisceration and Extenerator, I don't have the mythic or relic WS, laziness ftw but I assume Mercy Stroke is ahead of Rudra's at 1000TP but Rudra's quickly overtakes it as you approach 1750tp (or 2000 for you non TP bonus Moonshaders).

Eh, with Moonshade and the constant over TP (you'll almost never ws right at 1000 TP), it's close enough to say you can comfortably Rudra's all the things. For most intents and purposes it's the best unstacked WS for THF.

A couple ppl I know with Vajra say that Mandalic Stab is slighty behind but allows more SC options so it depends on which SC you are closing.

I'm seeing reports on FFXIAH so far that Mandau is even behind Iz/Atoyac atm...which is sad if it's true. But I don't know if the dust has truly settled with the new numbers and updated spread sheets yet?

[Ulth]

All fair, and my complaint is more of a wishful whine, and admittedly so, I just am envious seeing Thfs with weaker gear than I outparse me, that's all, but it's not like I'm crying foul, not really, Thfs with better gear have been outparsed by people with worse gear for a long time previously, fair is fair, I just wish we would've rode the wave up as high as Thf did, s'all.

I'm not calling for a nerf, or even a CDC buff really, that's just casual envy talking.

My actual complaints and desires focus more around Blu's utility, reducing set point costs so we can bring utility to a group along with our DD setup, enhancing buff durations so we don't have to reapply so insanely often what would otherwise be good buffs, etc.

That mostly has to do with gear that is good for sneak attack and trick attack. When you are gearing for that you want all the crit damage you can get, so for ilvl your options are af reforged +1 or Espial. Espial is easy to get, so to you it seems like they are under geared but really they are using the second best armor set for it.

But I do agree blu needs a little more things done. Chain Affinity needs a shorter recast, as does diffusion. And blu could also do with some extend spell duration gear.

[Selindrile]

I am aware of and gear options and what stats affect which abilities, I'm saying I have more optimal gear, they have considerably lesso and outparse me.

That said, previous to this update the reverse was true, Thfs with more optimal gear than I were out parsed by nearly all DDs, unless the gear disparity was quite notable.

Anyway, I'm aware, and I'm not calling for a Rudra's nerf, nor am I claiming a CDC buff is necessary (though I'll admit I had high hopes, but they took it off the buff list last minute, which made me sad) I just am idly wishing CDC had been buffed more, that's all.

But yeah, Blu could definitely do with some quality of life utility things like buff duration, which would marginally help their DD (not having to reapply Nature's Meditation as often for example) but certainly wouldn't be a huge buff DD wise, would just make it more enjoyable to play, considerably.

[dasva]

At 1000tp I'd say it still beats the likes of Evisceration and Extenerator, I don't have the mythic or relic WS, laziness ftw but I assume Mercy Stroke is ahead of Rudra's at 1000TP but Rudra's quickly overtakes it as you approach 1750tp (or 2000 for you non TP bonus Moonshaders).

Unstacked evisceration usually wins for me at 1000 tp. And stacked MS will win depending on overflow. Of course when you do stacked Rudras you want to do it at 1750 so depending on your haste you might not be able get an extra 1000 tp ws between the SA TA rudras. Actually even unstacked you'd never want to do rudras at 1000 since even without stacking you're better off at 1750 since dmg more than doubles. Man stab is also pretty good enough so that if you are hurting on attack it can pull ahead

[Atomic_Skull]

They need to buff Mercy Stroke a little, it used to be that MS was better at 1000 tp while Rudras was better at 2000TP and higher. Now Rudras is just clearly better by a wide margin at any TP. Either that, or buff the relic aftermath on Mandau so that the lower damage from Mercy Stroke is justified, +5% critical hit rate for 20 seconds doesn't make MS a viable WS when Rudra's is available.




A couple ppl I know with Vajra say that Mandalic Stab is slighty behind but allows more SC options so it depends on which SC you are closing.


Mandalic has a large attack bonus which justifies it's lower damage.

[dasva]

They need to buff Mercy Stroke a little, it used to be that MS was better at 1000 tp while Rudras was better at 2000TP and higher. Now Rudras is just clearly better by a wide margin at any TP. Either that, or buff the relic aftermath on Mandau so that the lower damage from Mercy Stroke is justified, +5% critical hit rate for 20 seconds doesn't make MS a viable WS when Rudra's is available.
They did buff MS. At true 1000 tp it's actually decently better than Rudra's... but since everyone and there mother picks tp bonus earring and there is overflow realistically anytime you use it Rudra's will be about the same to better because MS gets nothing from extra tp while that extra from the tp bonus earring literally increases Rudra's dmg by 37.5%. This is further compounded by the fact that since going from 1000-2000 increases rudras dmg by 150% and thf/dnc have medium recast jas that increase dmg that you wont want to rudra's at 1000 anyways

[Classikal]

They did buff MS. At true 1000 tp it's actually decently better than Rudra's... but since everyone and there mother picks tp bonus earring and there is overflow realistically anytime you use it Rudra's will be about the same to better because MS gets nothing from extra tp while that extra from the tp bonus earring literally increases Rudra's dmg by 37.5%. This is further compounded by the fact that since going from 1000-2000 increases rudras dmg by 150% and thf/dnc have medium recast jas that increase dmg that you wont want to rudra's at 1000 anyways

What they should do is just make aftermath a static buff for just having the weapon main-handed. And change Mercy Stroke to "Damage varies with TP". That would help Mercy Stroke a lot. At least than Mercy Stroke wouldn't suffer from the 1000 TP "damage cap", so to speak.

[Ulth]

What they should do is just make aftermath a static buff for just having the weapon main-handed. And change Mercy Stroke to "Damage varies with TP". That would help Mercy Stroke a lot. At least than Mercy Stroke wouldn't suffer from the 1000 TP "damage cap", so to speak.

I'm more concerned about the mythic weaponskill over the relic one. Granted that the damage of Mandalic Stab is head and tails over Mercy Stroke, and I don't think it should be better than Rudra's all the time, but it should at least be better if you have the mythic dagger. Like at 1000 tp their ftp is pretty close. Mandalic Stab has 5.0 and Rudra's is 6.0, but with Vajra's +30% damage for Mandalic stab it's more like 6.5. So like that without Varja it's worst, but with it, it's better. Only at 2000 tp Mandalic barely has any improvement, while Rudra's shoots up like a rocket.

I do like what they have done with Rudra's though. Before it pretty much all weaponskills had the best damage per tp at 1000tp, but the way they made the ftp at 2000 2.5 times as much as the ftp at 1000 makes it so thf can hold tp for timers and skillchaining. To me this has made the game much more enjoyable. I recently did a Marjami ravine delve. The set up was whm, brd, thf, nin, mnk, rdm. On the MB nin opened with Blade: Hi, thf closed with Rudra's, and the rdm magic burst earth. It was a beautiful display of teamwork, and I loved it.

[Byrth]

Well, even with Mythic boost it's not totally clear cut. A current Mandalic Stab set could easily have 16% TA, which would be 1.32 swings/hand. With Mythic AM3, it would be 1.86 swings on the main hand. Overstating additional attacks/round benefits Mandalic in this comparison, so I'm giving both AM3 and going with a highish estimation of additional attack amount.

Mandalic 1000 TP = (5+(8.5-5)/4+0.86+1.32)*1.3 = 10.47 fTP total with +66% attack boost
Rudra's 1000 TP = (6+(15-6)/4+0.86+1.32) = 10.43 fTP total with 20% more DEX mod

So depending on mob defense, Mandalic might be better or Rudra's might be better. Against most current content with reasonable buff levels for the content, I'd guess that Rudra's is better despite the fact that's not being used properly (going at 1000 TP) in this example. Mandalic kind of got the short end of the stick this update, but it's good that it got buffed so it's less painful to activate AM3 with. It's still respectable, but Rudra's is just crazy.

[Ulth]

Wait, does the Mythic boost apply to extra hits? Also do extra hits really matter that much when 2/3 of the damage before ftp is WSC?

[Byrth]

Mythic boost does apply to all hits.

WSC also is thought to contribute to all hits, including extra hits.

[Classikal]

Deleted post and moved it to its own thread.