The importance of job points

[Byrth]

Making job points more important without making them substantially easier to obtain is a bad idea that is going to bottleneck endgame. You can't adapt a game for casuals and then require them to farm job points for 100 hours in order to make 1 of their 22 jobs functional.

[Alhanelem]

Was someone talking about making job points more important? I'm confused, becuase your post seems like a reply to something but it's a new topic.

I don't think there are any plans to make job points more critical to the functioning of a job than they are currently (which is not very); other than the cap will eventually go up to 30 points per stat. And by that time, capacity points will probably be generating faster.

[Mefuki]

From Matsui in the Freshly picked Vana'diel:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45061-Freshly-Picked-Vana-diel-13-Digest?p=531805#post531805

"Character growth elements using job points
We’re currently developing character growth elements that will allow you to enhance your job depending on the number of capacity points you spend. To start off, we’ll be adding a system for capacity point bonuses and additional job traits; however, in the future this will be used to learn new spells as well."

[Mitruya]

Making job points more important without making them substantially easier to obtain is a bad idea that is going to bottleneck endgame. You can't adapt a game for casuals and then require them to farm job points for 100 hours in order to make 1 of their 22 jobs functional.

Not to mention most jobs aren't invited to the content that rewards the most capacity points.
And if I grind and grind on my PUP, will I FINALLY be invited? I doubt it.

[Alhanelem]

well damn.... Maybe they'll finally release Banish IV and Banishga III for WHM, after having teased them on the test server years ago...

At any rate, the FPV you quoted above pretty much says they'll be making capacity points easier by the time those things happen.

[Jeanna]

JP are already pretty terrible, I'd almost prefer if they didn't add more somehow. Farming them is a complete nightmare for anyone who plays legit.

[Jerbob]

Farming capacity points is one of the most boring things currently available to do in the game, and it's highly inaccessible to "non-optimal" jobs.

As I recall, we were promised with the introduction of capacity points that no major job enhancements or fixes would be made available through the use of JP. SE have already gone back on their word on this several times. I do not want to be forced into earning capacity points so that I can have access to essential job features like spells or traits.

IF capacity points can be earned at a reasonable rate for every single job, and in parallel with the vast majority of other activities, in such a way that actively farming them is completely unnecessary, THEN it might work. However, I am not remotely interested in actively farming capacity points in order to access job balancing and upgrade features. It is soul-destroyingly boring, if you can access it at all.

This concerns me quite a bit.

[Alhanelem]

Farming capacity points is one of the most boring things currently available to do in the game,You're right! about as boring as leveling up. Funny how nobody seemed to realize this. :p

I'm all for getting new spells/abilities with the system, but they have to be balanced. Not so crappy that you wouldn't want them, but not something that provides what ends up being critical functionality, unless you get all of that functionality with the first point.

Getting a few job points is no big deal. But needing a crap ton of them before the spell/ability is usable with the current rate of CP gain is. It just takes too long right now, and job inequality in content makes some jobs much harder to get points on than others.

[Zarchery]

I'm a bit of a job points fiend and I don't mind farming them. On MNK, I have 58 job points spent and 154 in the bank ready for use. On WHM I have 2 and on THF I have 3. I soloed most of my MNK job points because a good job points party is rare. I think if I had any desire for any other kind of job points, I'd be sunk.

I should hope that if there are spells and job traits unlockable, then at the least they'd stop this nonsense of having to be on the job to get capacity points for it.

[Alhanelem]

I'm a bit of a job points fiend and I don't mind farming them. On MNK, I have 58 job points spent and 154 in the bank ready for use. On WHM I have 2 and on THF I have 3. I soloed most of my MNK job points because a good job points party is rare. I think if I had any desire for any other kind of job points, I'd be sunk.

I should hope that if there are spells and job traits unlockable, then at the least they'd stop this nonsense of having to be on the job to get capacity points for it.
The only reason I mind them being job specific is because of the level of job discrimination in the playerbase. Otherwise, I already would rather earn things for a job on that job. I'd rather earn my PUP gear playing PUP, my GEO gear playing GEO, etc. The problem is many of the jobs I want to play won't be accepted by parties.

[Protey]

i don't know what you guys are talking about. job points are easy to get (and i do mean legit). go to incursion. i see all kinds of jobs in incursion, from blm to rdm to smn and of course the dd meatheads. about the only job i have yet to see in incursion is bst. In incursion I get 1 to 2 Job Points per run. use the capacity point increase cape from incursion and pop a capacity ring. boom instant JPs for the taking in the low low time of 45 minutes of incursion.

i am pretty sure all of you who are complaining already knew of incursion, so get off your lazy asses instead of wasting that precious time complaining here.

[Zarchery]

i don't know what you guys are talking about. job points are easy to get (and i do mean legit). go to incursion. i see all kinds of jobs in incursion, from blm to rdm to smn and of course the dd meatheads. about the only job i have yet to see in incursion is bst. In incursion I get 1 to 2 Job Points per run. use the capacity point increase cape from incursion and pop a capacity ring. boom instant JPs for the taking in the low low time of 45 minutes of incursion.

i am pretty sure all of you who are complaining already knew of incursion, so get off your lazy asses instead of wasting that precious time complaining here.


And like any other means of acquiring job points, it requires convincing some poor sucker to be willing to jump on a job they need no capacity points on, and essentially donate their time for nothing.

[Byrth]

This incoming system is going to be based on the total number of job points spent. So 56 job points solo is great, but it caps at 330 *right now*. That's 5 times as much.

[Protey]

And like any other means of acquiring job points, it requires convincing some poor sucker to be willing to jump on a job they need no capacity points on, and essentially donate their time for nothing.

pessimistic much? do a shout, have LS run, etc. people get merits in there too which they can use on high tier battlefield fights. there is no need as you put it to "convincing some poor sucker to be willing to jump on a job they need no capacity points on, and essentially donate their time for nothing".

[Camiie]

At what point did ratcheting character progression back to 2004 levels seem like a good idea?

[Alhanelem]

At what point did ratcheting character progression back to 2004 levels seem like a good idea?
Well, a suprising number of people have asked for leveling up to be slow like the good ol' days...

I understand the nostalgia value, but most of us people who were playing back when FFXI was new are no longer able to devote that level of time to grinding anymore.

I don't really care much if the people with tons of time to spare can get it done really fast, the parameters for this should be set for the average user- not the most casual or the most hardcore of players.

[Stompa]

I really like the idea of job points, for years I've been wanting a Specialist Class where you can take your favourite job in your own personal favourite direction, to higher and higher levels of specialised proficiency.

Obviously it is still a fairly new system and is open to the "organic development process" in future. However my main problem with Job Points is not the huge amount of "xp" required, or time/grind etc. w/e this doesn't really bother me so much. What I don't like is that you have to attend events on the job you want to get points on. So for example, maybe my LS needs a WHM for job points party, I am happy to be their WHM and I am ok at playing that job for extended lengths of time if my LS requires it, but I don't want divine seal bonuses etc. I want to spend the Job Points on my main jobs in developing them a la Specialist Class in other RPGs.
So I would like to see Job Points untethered, let those Job Points run free across the open fields. Let me use the Job Points I get while being a nice person and playing WHM for my LS, let me use those points on jobs that I actually like. Apart from that, I do really like the whole concept of job points a lot.

[Alhanelem]

What I don't like is that you have to attend events on the job you want to get points on.Personally, this is what I actually LIKE about the system; the real problem is not the system itself but job inequality. I *want* to earn things for my job on that job. I don't really understand why anyone would prefer not to do that. If there was better balance in the demand for each job in content, and better balance in each job's solo capability (Trust has alleviated this somewhat), this design wouldn't be an issue at all.

[Stompa]

Personally, this is what I actually LIKE about the system; the real problem is not the system itself but job inequality. I *want* to earn things for my job on that job. I don't really understand why anyone would prefer not to do that. If there was better balance in the demand for each job in content, and better balance in each job's solo capability (Trust has alleviated this somewhat), this design wouldn't be an issue at all.

I agree with your point, about how it would be nice to play my favourite job in all the Job Points runs, and feel I'm getting special points for that job.

Obviously Merit Points are the original old-school system, and they can be farmed on any job and spent on anything. My original point here was that my LS requires me to go WHM or RDM for job points runs, and so I end up with lots of what I consider wasted job points, points for a job I don't play except under duress. I don't want divine seal bonuses etc. lol. I want more job points on PUP and WAR. But often we are short of healers and that means I'm getting divine seal etc. job points. I don't think that is fair at all. If I am going WHM to help out and be useful and friendly, and imho playing Whm is kind of joyless and stressful, I don't feel I'm being rewarded for my effort when I can't use those points on something I actually want and need.

[Camiie]

The only job I seem to be able to get bunches of job points for is SAM, and it's not like the job even needs them. Meanwhile the jobs I have that are already underpowered become even more so by comparison. The strong get stronger and the weak get relatively weaker. The job imbalance gap widens even further, even if it is just a little.

[Alhanelem]

I agree with your point, about how it would be nice to play my favourite job in all the Job Points runs, and feel I'm getting special points for that job.

Obviously Merit Points are the original old-school system, and they can be farmed on any job and spent on anything. My original point here was that my LS requires me to go WHM or RDM for job points runs, and so I end up with lots of what I consider wasted job points, points for a job I don't play except under duress. I don't want divine seal bonuses etc. lol. I want more job points on PUP and WAR. But often we are short of healers and that means I'm getting divine seal etc. job points. I don't think that is fair at all. If I am going WHM to help out and be useful and friendly, and imho playing Whm is kind of joyless and stressful, I don't feel I'm being rewarded for my effort when I can't use those points on something I actually want and need.
You only grind points with your LS? No one else has a healer job? Maybe I'm judging too hard, but some linkshell friends if they don't let you use the jobs you need / want to use. I've only ever grinded solo since job points came out, I joined one party one time but it didn't last very long

[Stompa]

You only grind points with your LS? No one else has a healer job? Maybe I'm judging too hard, but some linkshell friends if they don't let you use the jobs you need / want to use. I've only ever grinded solo since job points came out, I joined one party one time but it didn't last very long

I solo'd a lot of job points, but I like to party with my LS when they do extended JP farms during double-JP times. Other people have healer jobs but are not always online/free to join the party. And I am a nice person, I like to help people and make people happy. So if they need a healer I will go. My point is really that I find WHM extended grinds to be a fairly miserable experience, and yet I do it to help my friends out. I feel that this kindness on my part should be rewarded, by allowing me to spent those job points on other jobs. Its like I'm being penalised for being helpful and a useful member of the group.

But apart from that small gripe, I really do think Job Points are a great idea, and I'm so glad SE finally added a way to specialise our favourite jobs and make them more personalised to our individual preferences.

[Alhanelem]

OK, I figured I was looking at it the wrong way :)

[Jeanna]

Second to include that a bit of a fix to JP in general would be like merit points, to allow job points to be accrued and used on any job, not just the job they were accrued on.

My main char is a Yag whm and it's not really fair, ideal or realistic to tell my LS to let me come thf or whatever else to delve and incursion, etc for the obscene amount of runs it'd take me to cap all the stuff I want on other jobs.

I get a lot of JP on whm with nothing left to really spend them on and it's kind of a bummer :/

[Zarchery]

Well I look forward to this update. This happened this morning:

http://mstabosz.com/jobpoint200a.jpg

[Tidis]

Well that's just ridiculous, how do you get your job points?

[Zarchery]

Well that's just ridiculous, how do you get your job points?

I'm a little leery about blabbing in an open forum and losing my camp. I probably provided more information than I should have by including the mob name in the screenshot. I think it's taken about 2 months to get those 200, and maybe like 250 hours solo. We're still in double capacity points until the 25th. I got a Vocation Ring (double capacity points, 12 charges, max bonus of 12,000 capacity points per charge) whenever Red Mog Pells are given out, and I think there was another Vocation Ring given out for some event about a year ago.

I always have either Capacity Ring or Vocation Ring active when killing. If neither is available (Capacity Ring reuse is 60 minutes but I usually blow through it in 30-40 minutes), I find some other way to kill time during the gap. I always fire off a Capacity Ring charge just before logging off to go to bed or work or anywhere else where I'll be away for 30 minutes or longer. Since the reuse timer keeps counting down even if you're logged off, this ensures I can "double dip" and get 2 charges back to back. If I do this and I'm left with 1 charge, I can "triple dip" (1 charge before logging out, use 1 charge when that is used up, toss ring and get a new one for 1 more charge after). Theoretically you could just toss your Capacity Ring after each charge and buy a new one; I usually gained sparks fast enough to do this, but I have an inherent aversion to being wasteful.

I still need about 210 more. It's not shown in the screenshot, but that 200 is in addition to 58 I already spent. I'm 10/10 on Chakra and 2/10 on Dodge. The Dodge job points I'd take back if I could; I got them from a party shortly after the job point system was introduced and Chakra wasn't available yet. I'm pretty Chakra obsessed and currently get 1328 healing when I use it with VIT merits, Chakra job points, and Chakra gear. Devs said they were going to raise the per category cap on job points from 10 to 30, so I'd like to get 30/30 Chakra if they do.

[Alhanelem]

I'm a little leery about blabbing in an open forum and losing my camp. I probably provided more information than I should have by including the mob name in the screenshot. I think it's taken about 2 months to get those 200, and maybe like 250 hours solo.It's kind of a jerky thing to do to keep things like that a secret. It can't be the only great farming spot, anyway.

[Tidis]

It's interesting you got them in ra'kaznar when supposedly Woh Gates should have the highest capacity point gain, I have considered sharpening up my accuracy sets and hitting Woh Gates again as a dual box, currently if I farm jop points, I do it in Dho.

[detlef]

It's kind of a jerky thing to do to keep things like that a secret. It can't be the only great farming spot, anyway.The mob is in the screenshot, what more do you want? How lazy could you be?

[Protey]

It's interesting you got them in ra'kaznar when supposedly Woh Gates should have the highest capacity point gain, I have considered sharpening up my accuracy sets and hitting Woh Gates again as a dual box, currently if I farm jop points, I do it in Dho.

doesn't matter how good your acc set is. you aren't going to have anywhere near a decent hit rate (i consider decent over 90%) duoing in woh gates. well.... maybe if your duo partner is a top notch bard subbing cor (getting lucky or 11 roll), use Kuyin Hathdenna, use riverfin soup, and have some kind of acc+ JA or trait. That might do it, will have to try it out.

[Alhanelem]

The mob is in the screenshot, what more do you want? How lazy could you be?
I know that, I'm just saying, withholding this sort of information because you don't want other people to discover it is rather unsavory. Yes, we can do the math. It just strikes me as very elitist to discover these kinds of things and brag that you know about them while not helping other people do the same.

Word will get out about good camps eventually, you're just doing a disservice to others by trying to hinder it.

[Zarchery]

I know that, I'm just saying, withholding this sort of information because you don't want other people to discover it is rather unsavory. Yes, we can do the math. It just strikes me as very elitist to discover these kinds of things and brag that you know about them while not helping other people do the same.

Word will get out about good camps eventually, you're just doing a disservice to others by trying to hinder it.

The thing is, there are 4 bat camps in Outer Ra'Kaznar, and each can only really accommodate 1 person. If my Ra'Kaznar camp becomes popular, I get crowded out. I'm not really under a moral obligation to share information that harms me.

[Zarchery]

It's interesting you got them in ra'kaznar when supposedly Woh Gates should have the highest capacity point gain, I have considered sharpening up my accuracy sets and hitting Woh Gates again as a dual box, currently if I farm jop points, I do it in Dho.

Woh Gates is better, if you have a group that includes a Bard for double Madrigal. The mobs there are somewhere around level 125 and have crazy evasion. My job point hunting was mostly solo, against fat bats that are roughly level 117.

[Demonjustin]

Is there really a difference between Dho and Woh Gates when it comes to Capacity gain? I never noticed one myself, they seemed exactly the same, so I just always stuck with the Crabs and Pugs in Dho...

[Malithar]

Is there really a difference between Dho and Woh Gates when it comes to Capacity gain? I never noticed one myself, they seemed exactly the same, so I just always stuck with the Crabs and Pugs in Dho...

For solo, it kinda depends on your job/gear and how high you can go. The higher level the mobs, the higher the CP gain, regardless of the level difference or area, except special instances, like Incursion NMs. Exp on the other hand has a base cap of 2450 iirc, and that's hit as low as Dho, if not lower.

For anyone interested in CPs, I highly recommend checking out the new areas of the Gates and Cirdas maps. Extremely fast repops, tons of mobs, and there's a very wide birth of choice when it comes to your targets. All areas AFAIK are 121-123 mobs, with a couple of 124s thrown in. Some are obviously less ideal then others, such as Sih Gates massive Dullahan and Umbril area, but most have a lot of mob choices.

Got this tonight in just 1 hour. Party was 2x Blu War Geo Cor (rolls only) Whm. Was wearing a +50% CP mantle. The final stretch was plagued with a bad roll from the Cor, most kills were in the neighborhood of 1800-1980ish CP, no CP ring for those numbers.

http://i.imgur.com/BoaHLRM.png

Not going to say CPs don't have their issues, but dedicating an hour to getting 15-20 JPs isn't that bad, IMO. As long as the cost per JP doesn't increase past 10 (ie, the assumed 11, 12.... 30 for final tier cost), and events in the future continue to award decent CPs that it'd work out decently. I think it'd be a fixed system if 2x CP gain became permanent. Get them at an ok pace doing content, solo at a decent pace, or group up and grind them out ala old school meripos to really knock them out quickly.

[Zarchery]

How do you get to those new areas? I went all over Sih, Woh, and Moh Gates and didn't find anything new.

[Malithar]

There's crystal structures in many of SoA's outdoor areas that have been there since launch. These now take you to the 2nd maps. In order to use the ports, you need to have completed the WKR in that zone and acquired the Aged Naakual Crest.

Crystals are at:

Ceizak - G-10 - Sih Gates
Marjami - F-11 - Woh Gates
Yorcia - I-10 - Cirdas Caverns
Foret - H-11 - Dho Gates
Morimar - H-5 - Moh Gates

On the opposite side of the 2nd map is also another crystal structure that will warp you directly into Ra'kaznar Inner Court. Specifically the one in Cirdas is useful for getting to the Ra'kaznar Turris for some of the final missions. Others may be useful someday if Ra'kaznar gets some more uses added to it.

[Dale]

I actually like the Job Point system.

It provides a long-term way to improve your character so I don't get bored and always have something to do. So I'm all for SE adding more features to this system. This is coming from a casual player also. It's nice to actually have a reason to go fight more challenging monsters.

In any case: it's a lot more enjoyable than working on Relic and Empyrean upgrades which are so tedious and boring it makes me contemplate quitting.

The Job Point system is basically just the old merit system anyway - before merits were basically force fed down your throat so fast you choke on them.

[Malthar]

Oh no... Dale's on here too?! He reminds me of Bob in "What About Bob?"

[Stompa]

The thing is, there are 4 bat camps in Outer Ra'Kaznar, and each can only really accommodate 1 person. If my Ra'Kaznar camp becomes popular, I get crowded out. I'm not really under a moral obligation to share information that harms me.

Like nobody on your server already noticed you soloing millions of bristlehair bats lol. They probably call you Batman behind your back!

:p

[Grekumah]

I'm a bit of a job points fiend and I don't mind farming them. On MNK, I have 58 job points spent and 154 in the bank ready for use. On WHM I have 2 and on THF I have 3. I soloed most of my MNK job points because a good job points party is rare. I think if I had any desire for any other kind of job points, I'd be sunk.

I should hope that if there are spells and job traits unlockable, then at the least they'd stop this nonsense of having to be on the job to get capacity points for it.

The concept of job points is meant to be like you are leveling a specific job past level 99 and due to this we are not considering to make it so you can save up job points on a separate job than the one you would like to use them on.

[GoltanaBuukki]

Except that the grind of obtaining Job points is considerably WORSE than levelling up traditionally, or even meritting. Capacity Points aren't rewarded as often as they should, and as much as they should. You can repeat certain Seeker's of Adoulin fights, and you are rewarded 20,000 Bayld. You can do certain BCNMs and are rewarded thousands of gil for a 2min fight. There are even Besieged events that, although extremely brief, yield upwards of 15,000 EXP and scaled Imperial Standing. VW provides significant EXP bonuses, as well as cruor, for just beating a monster halfway dead. Why is there no event currently that adds a significant amount of CP? Or better yet, why don't all events that generate some in-game currency have a CP tag attached to it as well?

People are complaining about having to earn these Job Points, and you are claiming its supposed to be like levelling beyond 99. You expect all of these jobs to solo their points if they are not accepted as the "optimal" job? Its ludicrous. No player in their right mind would ever bring a BST or PUP to incursion, and currently, thats the best event for CP.

[Protey]

Except that the grind of obtaining Job points is considerably WORSE than levelling up traditionally, or even meritting. Capacity Points aren't rewarded as often as they should, and as much as they should. You can repeat certain Seeker's of Adoulin fights, and you are rewarded 20,000 Bayld. You can do certain BCNMs and are rewarded thousands of gil for a 2min fight. There are even Besieged events that, although extremely brief, yield upwards of 15,000 EXP and scaled Imperial Standing. VW provides significant EXP bonuses, as well as cruor, for just beating a monster halfway dead. Why is there no event currently that adds a significant amount of CP? Or better yet, why don't all events that generate some in-game currency have a CP tag attached to it as well?

People are complaining about having to earn these Job Points, and you are claiming its supposed to be like levelling beyond 99. You expect all of these jobs to solo their points if they are not accepted as the "optimal" job? Its ludicrous. No player in their right mind would ever bring a BST or PUP to incursion, and currently, thats the best event for CP.

My LS has brought PUP to incursion. The only job that hasn't been brought is BST, and that's because pretty much no one in my LS plays it. If your LS isn't allowing you to bring those jobs... tell them to stop being di*ks. Now if you are attempting high level incursion i can see not bringing those jobs.... but that isn't a valid argument against as that level of incursion is for the trophy of saying look at what we accomplished, it's not for CP farming.

And as to your complaint of how obtaining Job Points is considerably worse than leveling up traditionally.... every game I've played where there was a soft cap (cuz that's pretty much what this is) it gets ridiculously hard to go up even one level. We are at the pinnacle of levels, it shouldn't be easy to go up higher. If it were up to me, it would be even more difficult.

[Zarchery]

Except that the grind of obtaining Job points is considerably WORSE than levelling up traditionally, or even meritting. Capacity Points aren't rewarded as often as they should, and as much as they should. You can repeat certain Seeker's of Adoulin fights, and you are rewarded 20,000 Bayld. You can do certain BCNMs and are rewarded thousands of gil for a 2min fight. There are even Besieged events that, although extremely brief, yield upwards of 15,000 EXP and scaled Imperial Standing. VW provides significant EXP bonuses, as well as cruor, for just beating a monster halfway dead. Why is there no event currently that adds a significant amount of CP? Or better yet, why don't all events that generate some in-game currency have a CP tag attached to it as well?

People are complaining about having to earn these Job Points, and you are claiming its supposed to be like levelling beyond 99. You expect all of these jobs to solo their points if they are not accepted as the "optimal" job? Its ludicrous. No player in their right mind would ever bring a BST or PUP to incursion, and currently, thats the best event for CP.

I remember in the early days of Adoulin, people did a lot of Delve without the goal of killing the boss or even the lesser NMs, and people went in solely to farm plasm. Are the Incursion runs you're doing leaving out jobs like Puppetmaster because they have an eye on beating the boss? I haven't done much Incursion (maybe 3 runs since it came out) so I'm not super familiar with the process, but as I recall the regular mobs died pretty quickly and gave a decent amount of capacity points. Is there a bonus in capacity points for killing the NMs and clearing the zone? Have you (or has anyone) clocked the rate of capacity point gain if you go into Incursion solely for the purpose of job points, with no intention of fighting any NMs?

But really guys, you shouldn't get bent out of shape over this. The improvements are fairly minor and you can live without. Just because something exists doesn't mean you must have it.

[Zarchery]

Like nobody on your server already noticed you soloing millions of bristlehair bats lol. They probably call you Batman behind your back!

:p

Well there is one fella, named Deadlier, who I'm sure notices. We run into each other a lot. He's working on an Ergon weapon of some sort and I think he's farming the reives for HP Bayld. I get a lot of it incidentally and sell it to him at a discount as thanks for him helping with those annoying reives.

[Glamdring]

I'm with Protey, XP/Merits are entirely too easy. however, since their only real use is pop items for Ouryu as an example I'm fine with that. But I like having a system again where it's work but your reward-the job point-is guaranteed, instead of luck-based like getting a good augmented JSE cape from incursion. That said, the job point rewards are EXTREMELY lackluster compared to the work involved in getting them. Both the point categories themselves and the gifts shown for cumulative points.

[Demonjustin]

If it were up to me, it would be even more difficult.Here's my problem with the entire system however, it's not difficult, it's boring and grindy. I find entertainment in difficulty, I love when things are hard enough to encourage me to think, form new strategies, and persevere through obstacles, in order to overcome them all and achieve my goals. This isn't difficult, it's rather the opposite, I can kill mobs in Dho Gates for hours on end without ever feeling any sort of challenge, rather I feel as though the only thing being challenged is my patience on how long I can sit in one spot fighting similar things before I smash my keyboard through my monitor. It feels like a waste of time, mindless and pointless in every way to me that doesn't truly make me stronger except via artificial stats, and that's a method of growth I truly hate in games quite frankly. I'll contend it's time taking, that it's a grind, but not that it's difficult, as time taken to achieve something and difficulty are very separate things to me.

[Stompa]

Well there is one fella, named Deadlier, who I'm sure notices. We run into each other a lot. He's working on an Ergon weapon of some sort and I think he's farming the reives for HP Bayld. I get a lot of it incidentally and sell it to him at a discount as thanks for him helping with those annoying reives.

Lol I was only joking anyway. I know how it is when you find a nice secluded camp, you always hope it won't get congested in the future. Also I have great admiration for you, because of the enormous amount of Job Points you solo'd. Thats like what my Japanese friend calls a "Strong Challenger!"

Its cool that you give that guy a discount on the Happy Baylds too. I am giving mine away for free now to one of my best friends coz she has got the GEO addiction on /OCDmode lol.

On the other posters comments re; CAP content/jobs like pup etc. it is true that I am soloing most of my CAP on Puppetmaster. My friend group got the capes they wanted a while ago and stopped doing Incursion. I never got my Pup cape or War cape, but I got some uber Sch capes for the job I only play when I absolutely have to lol.

And I don't do WoE anymore, for CAP or anything else. Long story. Go there, let us not.

But SE have announced that they are adding CAP to other content, so you will not be so restricted to the Incursion factor. That is good news, although I don't mind grinding solo CAP on Pup, because it is my main job for the simple reason that I feel happy when I play it lol. So playing it for however many hours of CAP grind is fine by me, but it will be nice to be able to do various CAP content, just to stop me going /tunnelvision and a bit weird.

[Zarchery]

I actually just did an Incursion run specifically for job points. I got about 18,322 in 45 minutes. Might've gotten more but I forgot to use my Mecistopins Mantle or Capacity Ring until halfway through. They come at about the same rate as I get them solo in Outer Ra'Kaznar. Also we had a lot of links, which were slept.... but then people split off and attacked different mobs anyway.

I feel like they come in at about the same rate as Aht Urghan era merits, or exceptional pre-75 levelling parties in the old days. So it's fine by me really. I think people are just spoiled by Abyssea, where they can just take a nap and get as much XP and merits as they want while someone else AOE kills monsters.

It also feels like people are putting out some contradictory complaints here. On the one hand they're like "This isn't fair now I need job points to play my job but it's too hard to get job points on my job!" and on the other it's like "Job points are so hard to get and the rewards from them so awful and not worth the effort." The former complaint I think is unfounded because the boosts, while nice, are not make-or-break for any job. If you're not getting invites it's because those jobs are unpopular and you don't have the reputation to get invited in spite of that. The latter complaint is silly because if you think that job points aren't worth the effort, the obvious solution is to not do them.

[Ophannus]

Grinding? In an MMO? Who would have thought.

Job points take longer than merits because merits 1) are not fixed, they can be removed and changed whilst job points are per anent. 2) merits are expended for level caps, unlocking weapon skills, phantom gems.

Job points are a decent mid-long term growth which can't be capped in 30min. It takes about a week of grinding in CP parties at 3-4 hours per day to get 50-70CP, or about as long as it took to get a job from 1-75 back before abyssea.

[Protey]

Grinding? In an MMO? Who would have thought.

Job points take longer than merits because merits 1) are not fixed, they can be removed and changed whilst job points are per anent. 2) merits are expended for level caps, unlocking weapon skills, phantom gems.

Job points are a decent mid-long term growth which can't be capped in 30min. It takes about a week of grinding in CP parties at 3-4 hours per day to get 50-70CP, or about as long as it took to get a job from 1-75 back before abyssea.

i think you mean 50-70 JP, lol.

[Rainehx]

The concept of job points is meant to be like you are leveling a specific job past level 99 and due to this we are not considering to make it so you can save up job points on a separate job than the one you would like to use them on.

This tickles me, I distinctly remember when SE where asked about job balancing Job Points where mentioned. "we will be using the job point system to continue to balance the jobs"

But rather than say making DRK equal to monk, a Dark has to find a cap point party so already thats twice the work a monk has to do because everyone wants a monk for DD, then they have to build those points everyday over time hoping to get more invites in the hope of getting close to a monk without any job points.

So basicly do 10x the work to be equal, Is this really working as intended? This is really job balancing? lol

Im just gad im the monk in that situation, and don't ever see myself using the "lesser" jobs now at all.

Im not saying the whole system is terrible, but to make someone work very hard to just be mediocre at a job is crazy, either scrap the job or make the lesser jobs on par before the cap points/gifts system calculations

[DerianX]

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make reforged Empyrean be Su2. ;)

[Artharian]

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make reforged Empyrean be Su2. ;)


Oh please no........

Art.

[Jile]

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make reforged Empyrean be Su2. ;)

Oh please no........

Art.

Oh jeeze, please no....

[Camiie]

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make reforged Empyrean be Su2. ;)

What the hell would be "lucky" about that?

[Protey]

it'll probably be HMPs, riftcinders, etc. to reforge empyrean armor. would bring back the market for those items (which would be nice for those wanting to make 99 dardaubla)

[Zarchery]

it'll probably be HMPs, riftcinders, etc. to reforge empyrean armor. would bring back the market for those items (which would be nice for those wanting to make 99 dardaubla)

???

There's already plenty of market for them. One of the big issues of the game today is that the market demand outstrips supply.

[Tennotsukai]

I feel bad for whoever is on whm or other support jobs that solo their jp farming. It must take them forever to max out a category. :(

[Demonjustin]

What the hell would be "lucky" about that?Sadomasochism for the win!

[Afania]

I feel bad for whoever is on whm or other support jobs that solo their jp farming. It must take them forever to max out a category. :(


Those jobs can get JP without the need to solo anyways, they always get invite to incursion/CP pt/delve pt.

[Jile]

Those jobs can get JP without the need to solo anyways, they always get invite to incursion/CP pt/delve pt.

The point though is its very lopsided toward a few jobs getting relatively easy points and other jobs stranded in solo-town.

[Protey]

The point though is its very lopsided toward a few jobs getting relatively easy points and other jobs stranded in solo-town.

no it's not. go do incursion, any job is acceptable to go to that unless you are doing the high levels. Go shout for a PUG incursion if for some reason your LS leaders are a**holes and won't let you come on BST, PUP, or w/e.

[Protey]

???

There's already plenty of market for them. One of the big issues of the game today is that the market demand outstrips supply.

There is not "plenty of market" for them. About the only market for them is Dardaublas. People don't make the other empyreans because those weapons suck. And people don't go above 90 on ochain either. Yes, you'll find one or two nutbars out there that really want to take those weapons to 119, but they would have a better weapon spending less effort elsewhere. Those one or two people can hardly be considered "plenty of market".

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

So I was just wondering, how is everyone liking the new gift system using spent job points? I wonder what they would have done if they had implemented into the merit system before job points even existed?

[Tennotsukai]

So I was just wondering, how is everyone liking the new gift system using spent job points? I wonder what they would have done if they had implemented into the merit system before job points even existed?

I'm actually really close to finishing all my gifts, so I'm kind of surprised to say I'm okay with it. I'm just worried how many points will be needed for these new abilities/spells in the future.

[Camiie]

So I was just wondering, how is everyone liking the new gift system using spent job points? I wonder what they would have done if they had implemented into the merit system before job points even existed?

It sucks because so far I haven't been able to make any meaningful progress with job points. Finding a JP party or people to join one is pretty much impossible in my experience. Soloing them is extremely slow and tedious even with an ongoing campaign, decent cape, and ring. For me, the community just isn't there to support this type of content. It might have been fine when there were 3k people on the server but now that it's between 500 and 800 with most of those being afk, it just doesn't work unless you have 5 buddies who are always on.

[Jile]

So I was just wondering, how is everyone liking the new gift system using spent job points? I wonder what they would have done if they had implemented into the merit system before job points even existed?

Given there seem to be so many people with schedule's like mine, where I come on to do Dynamis and perhaps a bcnm or two and that's about the extent of my available playtime - I'll have to see how this progresses over the next few years it takes me to max out a job. If I still played like I did in 2005 I'd be done with a job or two by now but far too many people have placed life over the game, like myself and won't get full benefit from this 'gift' for a long, long time.

[Olor]

It sucks because so far I haven't been able to make any meaningful progress with job points. Finding a JP party or people to join one is pretty much impossible in my experience. Soloing them is extremely slow and tedious even with an ongoing campaign, decent cape, and ring. For me, the community just isn't there to support this type of content. It might have been fine when there were 3k people on the server but now that it's between 500 and 800 with most of those being afk, it just doesn't work unless you have 5 buddies who are always on.

This is my experience as well. I have actually been going out of my way to farm JP on BST and I think I have 6 so far? And that is with spending like 1/2 of my playtime on JP farming. Granted I don't play much (probably because solo grinding JP is boring... but also some family busyness)... but still. They need to add more JP to more content because it's BS trying to get them on a job no one wants to invite to anything... which just makes the job suck even more.

[Dale]

no it's not. go do incursion, any job is acceptable to go to that unless you are doing the high levels. Go shout for a PUG incursion if for some reason your LS leaders are a**holes and won't let you come on BST, PUP, or w/e.

Yep. That's 90% of this game's problem right there - a$$holes who go out of their to discriminate against others based on what job they choose to play. People shouldn't confuse actual game issues with player attitudes because that's something SE can't fix.

[Olor]

I am sorry... but yeah bst "can" do incursion but I don't think someone is being an a-hole if they would rather take a DD that does 2-4 times as much damage. IT IS A GAME ISSUE. All DDs should be able to put out comparable levels of damage one way or another. Even if say BST was really good in unbuffed situations and crappy in buffed situations (they could easily do this by massively boosting pets, which don't get buffs) it would be more fair than it is now where bst is pretty much never better unless you want to tickle something to death with a low chance of getting hurt.

[Camiie]

Yep. That's 90% of this game's problem right there - a$$holes who go out of their to discriminate against others based on what job they choose to play. People shouldn't confuse actual game issues with player attitudes because that's something SE can't fix.

Those are player attitudes that are based on mathematics, and that's something only SE can fix.

[Jile]

Those are player attitudes that are based on mathematics, and that's something only SE can fix.

Yes and no. While the math may support leaving a BST /sitting in Jeuno twiddling their thumbs people could always invite anyone and have some fun instead.

....and then I step back into reality and realize that's not going to happen outside my social linkshell lol. Damage>sociability is the reality of XI.

[Olor]

Yes and no. While the math may support leaving a BST /sitting in Jeuno twiddling their thumbs people could always invite anyone and have some fun instead.

....and then I step back into reality and realize that's not going to happen outside my social linkshell lol. Damage>sociability is the reality of XI.

eh, to be fair, it's not really a lot of fun sucking either. I'd like my job to be within striking distance of other jobs with the same function.

[Alhanelem]

Except that the grind of obtaining Job points is considerably WORSE than levelling up traditionally, or even meritting.Some people have complained about how fast and easy it is to level up now; so rather than slow that down directly, they make their new advancement system grindy to compensate. Not necessarily saying that CP aren't too slow, but EXP is extremely fast these days. capaicty points should take longer to earn than EXP, although they do perhaps take too much longer. The good news is that as you gain more, future job points will be earned a bit more quickly due to the cumulative capacity point bonuses you earn.

[Camiie]

Some people have complained about how fast and easy it is to level up now; so rather than slow that down directly, they make their new advancement system grindy to compensate. Not necessarily saying that CP aren't too slow, but EXP is extremely fast these days. capaicty points should take longer to earn than EXP, although they do perhaps take too much longer. The good news is that as you gain more, future job points will be earned a bit more quickly due to the cumulative capacity point bonuses you earn.

Which means that jobs that are already slow to earn CP will get it even slower by comparison! Gifts only serve to widen the disparity. The gift that keeps on taking.

[Alhanelem]

Which means that jobs that are already slow to earn CP will get it even slower by comparison! Gifts only serve to widen the disparity. The gift that keeps on taking.
That's a defect of job design not a defect of gifts or job points. The jobs that are slow to earn CP are slow to earn EXP as well. Should harder-to-level jobs require less EXP to level up? No, they should balance the jobs better so that in a solo situation they can still perform acceptably. FFXIV solves this problem for healers with Cleric Stance, which weakens healing spells to boost damage output. Trust should have in theory eliminated this soloing disparity, but it doesn't because the DPS trusts are woefully inadequate, something that SE needs to address. (I believe afflatus solace and misery were intended to be something similar to a cleric stance / healer stance thing, but it really falls flat as misery's boost to damage spells is pretty paltry and dependent on a number that changes frequently)

If you form a party for job points, all these problems go out the window anyway. Everyone in your party is earning them at the same rate, ignoring gifts. Remember how we used to get EXP? in a party. You can still do that with CP, you know. The job growth disparity only exists while playing solo.

Farming in a party is a lot faster, and so many people beg for old-school EXP parties and stuff. Yet despite this begging, not a lot of people do it when it's totally possible. I did a party in Woh Gates and it was several orders of magnitude faster than soloing, especially for the jobs that are not as good at soloing.

[Camiie]

If you form a party for job points, all these problems go out the window anyway. Everyone in your party is earning them at the same rate, ignoring gifts. Remember how we used to get EXP? in a party. You can still do that with CP, you know. The job growth disparity only exists while playing solo.

Farming in a party is a lot faster, and so many people beg for old-school EXP parties and stuff. Yet despite this begging, not a lot of people do it when it's totally possible. I did a party in Woh Gates and it was several orders of magnitude faster than soloing, especially for the jobs that are not as good at soloing.

You must have missed the earlier posts where I noted the difficulty of joining or creating a CP party due to the severe lack of active server population. Combine that with the aforementioned job balance issues and... well a lot of us are pretty much having to earn all our CP solo. Like with many things SE has put out over the years there are too many layers of complexity than are necessary between me and my goals.

[Alhanelem]

You must have missed the earlier posts where I noted the difficulty of joining or creating a CP party due to the severe lack of active server population.The thing is, that makes everything harder, not just earning CP or EXP. But what I see is not simply a lack of people but rather disinterest. I often ask people and they're like nah I want to do this that or the other content instead (even though nobody I know is capped on job points).

Again, what you're illustrating is not a defect in the job point system itself- The job point issue is at worst a symptom of a larger problem. A problem that could be fixed by either or both of two things:
1) A server merge, which I'm on the fence about since news of a server merge just fuels "game is dying" discussion
2) Job adjustments to make less-solo-capable jobs more independent and/or buffing DPS trust NPCs to be halfway decent instead of garbage.

[PlumbGame]

Is content being designed around not needing Job Points, but having job points will eventually turn into a huge advantage? Because it sounds like from recent community rep responses that the gifts system is going to be expanded to include many new potentials for the job you are gaining them on, but I thought the original idea was to basically be an extra feature to advance your character without job points being "required", but the route they are going seems like they are going to be required.

[Alhanelem]

I don't get the fuss about it being "required" or not. Obviously they aren't vital at the moment, but the system is very clearly designed to be a "level up past 99" system. If there is never content where they are necessary, then they would, to some degree, trivialize the game. That being said, just like EXP, they will gradually make them easier as they become more expected.

To me this is like complaining that leveling to 99 is required after they raised the level caps. What point is there in adding new advancement features if you don't in any way need them? I also distinctly remember some people complaining about the job point system because the bonuses are insignificant. You can't have your cake and eat it too here. They're either going to be worthless and therefore not required for anything, or they will be useful and required by something - if not directly by the content, than by players who minmax and expect everyone who plays with them to be the best.

[PlumbGame]

There is no fuss, at least from me. I'm just trying to figure out there idea behind job points and the direction they are going with them. I would love to have "prestige" system essentially where you can make your character stronger to beat content that much easier for actually playing the job vs just gearing it with whatever job, which I almost viewed the job points/gift system as, but like I said, from adjustments that seem they are going to add to them, I wonder if they are going to become a necessity, not because of the players, but because SE will create content around it, for example higher ilvl requiring more ACC.

It even sounds like for example the gift system will eventually be even giving jobs new JAs/Spells etc. So it's really going to be interesting to see what unfolds.

[Alhanelem]

It sounded more like enhancements to existing abilities rather than new ones to me, but I could easily be mistaken.

[Byrth]

It sounded more like enhancements to existing abilities rather than new ones to me, but I could easily be mistaken.

You're mistaken. They've explicitly stated several times that they're going to introduce new spells and abilities through the Gift system, which you even acknowledged in an earlier post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45079-The-importance-of-job-points?p=531922&viewfull=1#post531922).

Again, I do not think that widening the gap between casuals and hardcores benefits anyone. There already aren't enough people logging in to play with. We don't need them amplifying this by disqualifying everyone that doesn't play 20 hours a week from current content. There just aren't that many of us anymore.

And yes, I'm aware that they've said these rewards are just designed to be an unnecessary boon to hardcores who don't need the game to be any easier. That's just not how it works, though. We'll end up with difficulty creep making them required to land spells on D fights. A BLM that has spent 55 JPs on Magic Accuracy has 21 more MAcc than one that has no JPs thanks to Gifts. They can hem and haw about how unnecessary Gifts are for current content, but 21 MAcc is an NQ elemental staff. That's not insignificant.

[Protey]

You're mistaken. They've explicitly stated several times that they're going to introduce new spells and abilities through the Gift system, which you even acknowledged in an earlier post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45079-The-importance-of-job-points?p=531922&viewfull=1#post531922).

Again, I do not think that widening the gap between casuals and hardcores benefits anyone. There already aren't enough people logging in to play with. We don't need them amplifying this by disqualifying everyone that doesn't play 20 hours a week from current content. There just aren't that many of us anymore.

And yes, I'm aware that they've said these rewards are just designed to be an unnecessary boon to hardcores who don't need the game to be any easier. That's just not how it works, though. We'll end up with difficulty creep making them required to land spells on D fights. A BLM that has spent 55 JPs on Magic Accuracy has 21 more MAcc than one that has no JPs thanks to Gifts. They can hem and haw about how unnecessary Gifts are for current content, but 21 MAcc is an NQ elemental staff. That's not insignificant.

there's a difference on required to have JPs and that of needing a GEO to increase your magic acc or RDM using Frazzle 2. So far there is no such content that exists. Even the highest levels of incursion were beaten without Gifts. If a BLM is having trouble landing spells... throw in a GEO or RDM to your party. When that no longer suffices, then people can bitch and moan. Until then, stop the o, the world is falling. I'm sick of it from all of you. Just play the game, when you have a legitimate gripe about something that actually exists, then by all means, speak up.

[Alhanelem]

This alleged "widening of the gap" is actually a good thing. The game was/is so ridiculously top heavy that short of adding new contsant constantly there's nothing they could do because everybody was max level with max merits, there was absolutely no reason to grind anything anymore (except for gil/currencies). the other suggestions i've seen (like level sync to anything) posed to deal with this type of problem really wouldn't be effective because people would still have little reason to go out to those places other than for nostalgia, but nostalgia alone won't progress your character.

[Byrth]

The gap is huge right now. Perhaps you can't tell because you're only looking at one side.

[Olor]

You're mistaken. They've explicitly stated several times that they're going to introduce new spells and abilities through the Gift system, which you even acknowledged in an earlier post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45079-The-importance-of-job-points?p=531922&viewfull=1#post531922).

Again, I do not think that widening the gap between casuals and hardcores benefits anyone. There already aren't enough people logging in to play with. We don't need them amplifying this by disqualifying everyone that doesn't play 20 hours a week from current content. There just aren't that many of us anymore.

And yes, I'm aware that they've said these rewards are just designed to be an unnecessary boon to hardcores who don't need the game to be any easier. That's just not how it works, though. We'll end up with difficulty creep making them required to land spells on D fights. A BLM that has spent 55 JPs on Magic Accuracy has 21 more MAcc than one that has no JPs thanks to Gifts. They can hem and haw about how unnecessary Gifts are for current content, but 21 MAcc is an NQ elemental staff. That's not insignificant.

Thank you Byrth, well said, especially the bolded part.

Over time JP will create a huge barrier for any new or returning player - just making it less likely this game survives in the long term. I don't understand the devs thinking here, especially with the huge disparity in the JP earning capability of different jobs. As it is my eyes bug out when I see people saying they have like 100 JP for a job or something when I've spent my precious and limited login time to specifically farm them and I think I have less than 10 total across all jobs...

[Alhanelem]

The gap is huge right now. Perhaps you can't tell because you're only looking at one side.
If I'm looking at one side it's not the top, I can tell you that much. And it's good that the gap is huge. It is healthy for a game to have players in lots of different states. FFXI became redonkulously top-heavy keeping the level cap the same for so long.

And I'm not talking about the job balance gap, to get that out of the way. THAT still needs a lot of work. Support classes and/or trusts need some adjustments to allow those jobs to be more independent. Greater incentive to party grind like the old days is needed. It's effective, but apparently not effective enough to get people to do it.


I'm aware that they've said these rewards are just designed to be an unnecessary boon to hardcores who don't need the game to be any easier. That's just not how it works, though.You are the one putting the negative spin on this. They did not say "these rewards are designed to be an unnecessary boon to hardcores who dont need the game to be any easier."

Job points are for everyone, not just hardcores. I have resubbed for one month, played a few hours a day and gotten several job points. JOB POINTS ARE NOT A HARDCORE SYSTEM.

So no, Byrth's post is not well said. If it was, then we should be removing experience points and levels from the game too, because capacity points and EXP are essentially the same and earned exactly the same way. If Job points are hardcore, than so is leveling up. All I see in his post is whining, and little about improving or adjusting the system.

I guess people have forgotten that XI is simply a harder MMO than most.

Arguing that Job Points and Gifts, which are essentially extra levels after 99, shouldn't be required is like arguing that leveling up shouldn't be required.

[Tennotsukai]

there\\'s a difference on required to have JPs and that of needing a GEO to increase your magic acc or RDM using Frazzle 2. So far there is no such content that exists. Even the highest levels of incursion were beaten without Gifts. If a BLM is having trouble landing spells... throw in a GEO or RDM to your party. When that no longer suffices, then people can bitch and moan. Until then, stop the o, the world is falling. I\\'m sick of it from all of you. Just play the game, when you have a legitimate gripe about something that actually exists, then by all means, speak up.

Oh I have a legitimate gripe. Tourbillion and Barbed Crescent are broken. Let's all head over to the blue mage section and support them :)

[Camiie]

All I see in his post is whining, and little about improving or adjusting the system.

MY improvement to the system would be to make each job point worth 10,000 CP rather than 30,000. Also any mob 99+ should give a 1:1 ratio of CP to XP. There ya go. A solution sans whining.

[Afania]

MY improvement to the system would be to make each job point worth 10,000 CP rather than 30,000. Also any mob 99+ should give a 1:1 ratio of CP to XP. There ya go. A solution sans whining.

If JP only worth 10k instead of 30k plus mobs giving same amount of CP as EXP, I(and probably my entire LS and most of my friends) would be sitting in town with every category capped on all of my jobs and nothing to do....you know, wasting $12 a month.

That's not an improvement, that's shortening the game's life span.

[Camiie]

If JP only worth 10k instead of 30k plus mobs giving same amount of CP as EXP, I(and probably my entire LS and most of my friends) would be sitting in town with every category capped on all of my jobs and nothing to do....you know, wasting $12 a month.

That's not an improvement, that's shortening the game's life span.

What shortens a game's lifespan more is putting too many goals out of reach of players with limited playtime which constitutes the majority of any MMO's player base. If JPs are too hard to make meaningful progress with, then people are going to sit around town with no categories capped and nothing to do... you know wasting $12 a month.

[Zarchery]

What shortens a game's lifespan more is putting too many goals out of reach of players with limited playtime which constitutes the majority of any MMO's player base. If JPs are too hard to make meaningful progress with, then people are going to sit around town with no categories capped and nothing to do... you know wasting $12 a month.

So set a goal that you don't find difficult. I get job points so easily that I'm sitting here with 200 in the bank wondering what I'm going to spend them on because the existing categories aren't so great.

You're just bitter because you can't cap job points while sitting around AFK in Abyssea, and actually have to put some effort into getting them.

[Camiie]

So set a goal that you don't find difficult. I get job points so easily that I'm sitting here with 200 in the bank wondering what I'm going to spend them on because the existing categories aren't so great.

You're just bitter because you can't cap job points while sitting around AFK in Abyssea, and actually have to put some effort into getting them.

The one who seems bitter is you, and ignorant of me and my style of play, but do keep going because you making yourself look like a fool is amusing to me.

[Zarchery]

Having spent 110 job points on Monk, maxing 2 categories and getting all gifts, here's what I have:

+100 base HP recovered for Chakra
+20 Evasion when Dodge is effective
+5 Physical Defense
+8 Physical Attack
+6 Physical Evasion
+6 Physical Accuracy
+5 Magic Accuracy
+5 Guarding Skill
The ability to equip certain pieces of gear that I'm not using anyway.

Yeah.... real game breaker. I'm so mega super duper powerful that I feel sorry for the people who don't have all my earth shattering single digit bonuses.

The strangest thing about these bonuses is that if I didn't just tell you about them, you wouldn't know I had them. Heck I could just as easily lie and say that I have them and you wouldn't know the difference.

You people are so weird. You're all fine and dandy and having a good time in this game until something new exists that you can't have easily. Even if that thing isn't so good. Then you get all bent out of shape because you can't have it. You're like children who get jealous because one of your classmates got a fancy new toy and you don't have it.

[Zarchery]

What shortens a game's lifespan more is putting too many goals out of reach of players with limited playtime which constitutes the majority of any MMO's player base. If JPs are too hard to make meaningful progress with, then people are going to sit around town with no categories capped and nothing to do... you know wasting $12 a month.

Actually, regardless of how difficult job points are to get, those people could:

--Build a relic weapon
--Build a mythic weapon
--Level a new job
--Gear a new job
--Do Skirmish
--Do Delve
--Do Incursion
--Do SCKNM fights on various difficulty levels
--Do high level mission battles on various difficulty levels
--Do coalition assignments
--Do any of the other dozens of other things to do that aren't job points

Your reasoning is so ridiculous. Most of the people in my linkshell don't bother with job points, but they seem to be keeping themselves occupied nonetheless.

[Demonjustin]

You're just bitter because you can't cap job points while sitting around AFK in Abyssea, and actually have to put some effort into getting them.Ah... such a stupid argument. While I can't speak for others, I hate the JP system as well and don't actually farm them due to the grind involved. My hate isn't derived from an inability to leech it or from having to put effort into it, I simply hate boring shit. Defend JPs however you want, but at the end of the day the obtainment rate while doing other meaningful content isn't fast enough and if you go out of your way for them it's a boring as hell grind. That's not something I'm about to subject myself to, so I just don't do it. Simply because I don't do it doesn't mean I won't advocate for changes that would make it enjoyable enough for me to do it.

[Kimble]

Making job points more important without making them substantially easier to obtain is a bad idea that is going to bottleneck endgame. You can't adapt a game for casuals and then require them to farm job points for 100 hours in order to make 1 of their 22 jobs functional.

I like long progression in MMOs. Remember when a relic weapon took a very long time AND the Alliance had to be on time? Yeah, stuff like that made the game better to me.

Otherwise, you'd be done with stuff quick, then stand around looking pretty until next update. Try playing FFXIV: A Realm Reborn. You'll see what I mean.

[Camiie]

I like long progression in MMOs. Remember when a relic weapon took a very long time AND the Alliance had to be on time? Yeah, stuff like that made the game better to me.

Otherwise, you'd be done with stuff quick, then stand around looking pretty until next update. Try playing FFXIV: A Realm Reborn. You'll see what I mean.

But you didn't need a relic to do endgame back then.

The writing is already on the wall for SE to begin designing content around people having JPs and the corresponding gifts even though few players have made meaningful progress on them. A small handful of vocal forum goers are making it sound a lot easier than it actually is for the rank and file player. John Q Linkshell Leader and his Merry Band of Sycophants and Dual Box Bots are not reflective of the community as a whole. I want SE to understand that before they let things get out of hand.

[Protey]

But you didn't need a relic to do endgame back then.

The writing is already on the wall for SE to begin designing content around people having JPs and the corresponding gifts even though few players have made meaningful progress on them. A small handful of vocal forum goers are making it sound a lot easier than it actually is for the rank and file player. John Q Linkshell Leader and his Merry Band of Sycophants and Dual Box Bots are not reflective of the community as a whole. I want SE to understand that before they let things get out of hand.

such doom and gloom. Guess you are forgetting that people beat Incursion level 143 without Gifts. Yes they had very top notch players to do so, but that is to be expected as there is no other content in existence of that level. Nor is anyone even remotely required to do Incursion at level 143, it was purely a "see what we can do" thing. Until such level of content becomes the standard for new content (without raising our ilevel) one shouldn't be complaining.

If by chance content did come into existence that required a ton of JPs and Gifts, it would be alliance level content. go make some CP parties and get them.

If your argument is that you are casual and don't have the means to go get all those JPs/Gifts yourself.... guess what, there isn't casual content that requires said ton of JPs and Gifts, it would be for alliance level. So what's the concern?

And if your argument is that you should be able to be casual and yet do all content... that's like saying back at 75 cap you should be able to go kill HNMs showing up as level 70 because you hadn't beaten Maat yet. Of course you aren't going to get invited to attend said event. There is a certain level of competency to complete content, not just in skill in pushing your macros, but equipping gear that is acceptable, and being at the appropriate level. If you want to stay casual, so be it. Don't expect to do all content.

[Zarchery]

This game has been in North America for what, 11 years? That's about how long malcontents have been griping "the end is just around the corner because of [INSERT MALCONTENT'S PERSONAL PET PEEVE HERE]"

[Zarchery]

Ah... such a stupid argument. While I can't speak for others, I hate the JP system as well and don't actually farm them due to the grind involved. My hate isn't derived from an inability to leech it or from having to put effort into it, I simply hate boring shit. Defend JPs however you want, but at the end of the day the obtainment rate while doing other meaningful content isn't fast enough and if you go out of your way for them it's a boring as hell grind. That's not something I'm about to subject myself to, so I just don't do it. Simply because I don't do it doesn't mean I won't advocate for changes that would make it enjoyable enough for me to do it.

Ok fair enough, just as long as you don't get a huffy sense of entitlement for job points.

I agree it could be pretty boring and the only reason I have so many is because my personality is wired in a certain way to enjoy it, and also I'm kind of Chakra obsessed and really want them. I want them as a personal goal, but I don't pretend to need them.

[Byrth]

Y'all are confused if you think I haven't capped out the job points of every job that I play with any regularity.
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth#jobpoints

I made this thread and continue to post these posts because I can see that progression down this path will hurt the game.

[Alhanelem]

It won't hurt the game. This progression path is no different than any other progression path in any MMO in history: Collect points from killing things, grow stronger. That's all you're doing. That's all you did the first time you played the game. If that hurts the progression path, than virtually all MMOs ever created are defective in a core element of their design.

This is all ignoring the fact that, as someone on the previous page pointed out, even if you've maxed out all current job points and obtained all gifts on a job, the difference between you and another player is not really visible except to a particularly discerning eye. You aren't going to be seeing any hardcore players dictating "must have X Y Z job points earned to join" in their party shouts anytime soon.

[Camiie]

Now you'll be able to become stronger by spending job points on specific job point bonuses, and receive further bonuses through Gifts based on how many job points you've spent!
We're also looking into adding abilities and spells earned through Gifts to make it feel like you are leveling up past level 99.
Gift Bonuses
In addition to Gifts that boost your base traits, we plan to add further bonuses to abilities and spells.
I believe some players may have felt that the Gifts that were added this time only provided a small boost; however, the current set of Gifts is only the beginning.

We'll be adding more Gifts that will stack with each other little by little to produce more noticeable effects.

We’ve heard that some players believe that Gifts are necessary in order to tackle certain content, but based on the current set of Gifts, there is no need to make adjustments to certain content. Please think of Gifts as something that makes the content easier, rather than something necessary.

In future, if there's a demand for more challenging content, we'll consider adding content with a difficulty which requires the boosts from Gifts.

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45544-Freshly-Picked-Vana-diel-14-Digest?p=535924#post535924

Note that last line. If past experience with SE means anything then you can bet your bottom dollar that what he says they're only considering is something they're actually working on right now. The dev team is downright dishonest at times when it comes to future plans.

I'm not ignoring what he said above it, but that deals with current content. What I'm looking at is the future, and unless they make CP far more available, then the future looks bleak. If you don't believe me then the fact that someone like Byrth has a similar notion should tell you something.

[Zarchery]

So you're getting all bent out of shape over something that doesn't actually exist?

[Camiie]

So you're getting all bent out of shape over something that doesn't actually exist?

No one is "bent out of shape." Yet another baseless accusation. What I'm trying to do is discourage what I feel is a bad design strategy before irreversible damage is done. Meanwhile, you're just being a dick without provocation.

[Afania]

What shortens a game's lifespan more is putting too many goals out of reach of players with limited playtime which constitutes the majority of any MMO's player base. If JPs are too hard to make meaningful progress with, then people are going to sit around town with no categories capped and nothing to do... you know wasting $12 a month.

I find this logic not very convincing and logically flawed.....if someone with limited playtime can't cap job point due to the lack of playtime, they probably have too much stuff to do in this game, thus they can go do something else. Job point isn't the only content in this game.

How'd they end up wasting $12 a month if they have too much stuff to do in this game?

[Protey]

If you don't believe me then the fact that someone like Byrth has a similar notion should tell you something.

Appeals to authority are a logical argumentation fallacy.

His opinion and reasoning is no more acceptable than any other player's.

[Protey]

No one is "bent out of shape." Yet another baseless accusation. What I'm trying to do is discourage what I feel is a bad design strategy before irreversible damage is done. Meanwhile, you're just being a dick without provocation.

this is a game. there is no such thing as "irreversible damage". SE has made things in this game one way, then come back and reversed them later on.

[Zarchery]

No one is "bent out of shape." Yet another baseless accusation. What I'm trying to do is discourage what I feel is a bad design strategy before irreversible damage is done. Meanwhile, you're just being a dick without provocation.

"Bent out of shape" is an idiom meaning to get needlessly and excessively worried. Which is what you're doing by making silly accusations like "job points are going to become so necessary to everyone that they're going to start quitting in droves".

[Camiie]

I find this logic not very convincing and logically flawed.....if someone with limited playtime can't cap job point due to the lack of playtime, they probably have too much stuff to do in this game, thus they can go do something else. Job point isn't the only content in this game.

How'd they end up wasting $12 a month if they have too much stuff to do in this game?

Be sure to stretch properly before performing such intricate mental gymnastics. A person who has a couple hours to play in an evening decides they'd like to work on JPs. There's no parties so they decide to solo. In their two hours of play they don't even get 1 JP. After doing this a few times with no relief in sight they get frustrated and either give up on JPs, thus giving themselves less to do in game and defeating the purpose of JPs, or they quit. Sound healthy for the game? To me it doesn't.


Appeals to authority are a logical argumentation fallacy.

His opinion and reasoning is no more acceptable than any other player's.

So my opinions are just as good as anyone else's? Sweet! Thanks!


this is a game. there is no such thing as "irreversible damage". SE has made things in this game one way, then come back and reversed them later on.

Such as?


"Bent out of shape" is an idiom meaning to get needlessly and excessively worried. Which is what you're doing by making silly accusations like "job points are going to become so necessary to everyone that they're going to start quitting in droves".

Don't put things in quotes that I didn't say. Also you're still attacking me personally with baseless assumptions and adding nothing to the conversation. Seriously that's all you ever seem to do is personally attack people you disagree with. Is that why you're here? Try not being a jerk and actually have a conversation. You can do that, right?

[Kensagaku]

Be sure to stretch properly before performing such intricate mental gymnastics. A person who has a couple hours to play in an evening decides they'd like to work on JPs. There's no parties so they decide to solo. In their two hours of play they don't even get 1 JP. After doing this a few times with no relief in sight they get frustrated and either give up on JPs, thus giving themselves less to do in game and defeating the purpose of JPs, or they quit. Sound healthy for the game? To me it doesn't.

Bwuh? They need to ask the community for better camps then. Just recently I've been shown a camp in the Woh subgates that is quite handy; using two Capacity ring charges (one right as I was logging off to maintain the buff but tick down the cooldown, one after the first wore), on my DRG/RDM I had gotten two JPs in about 50 minutes, give or take. While my Dragoon is my "main" job so to speak, it's a little behind in gear, since I use my BLU for most things solo and I'm usually on GEO for my linkshell events. While I'm not running around in sparks gear, I'm not 5/5 AF1/2 119, no RME, and I don't have "uber" pieces like +1 avatar rings. I have some Delve boss gear (Yaoyotl Helm, Upukirex, and K'ayres Ring come to mind), but for the most part if I have a moderately good Dragoon and can hit 2 JP in an hour with some tactical Capacity Ring usage, then a casual player should be able to get at least a single job point in their "two hours of play" provided they are pointed in the right direction. So progression should always be there and present.

It's kind of funny, I keep seeing counter-arguments about this sort of thing. For a long while it was "I don't want to play the 'pray for your drop' game, I want to see at least some sort of progression, even a little at a time!" Okay, here's job points. You earn a little CP doing things all over, from Unity to Incursion, even in Dynamis if you farm (former) DCs you'll get some small amount. Lookie, general progression that adds up over time. People wanted to build things up over time, rather than hoping they get a chance at some form of upgrade, be it gear or, in this case, small bonuses to their character. Yet now that this content is available, people are complaining about wanting easier, faster ways to get it, when it's already a fairly easy system even solo. Farm CP at Kamihr Drifts or Marjami Ravine if your gear isn't quite up to date, do RoE objectives such as reives (especially with the WKR campaign going on!). Once you get your gear/skills up, progress to the subgates; Dho is quite inviting with a nice fly/worm camp right at the entrance of the subzone and and Eft/Fly/Crab camp a bit further in, and it's not far from the Yorcia Skirmish entrance. Woh subgates has a fantastic bat camp in the SW corner for piercing jobs, one that I personally enjoy.

I know this is a slight tangent to the overall purpose of the thread, but my point is that while they originally promoted JPs to be unnecessary, small boons (and indeed, in the end many of them are), as they become more relevant (the suggestion that spells and such would come from them) there are also many more ways to earn them. I'm far from capped on my jobs, but that's because I get bored going and EXPing solo. I still have the ability to progress myself, as long as I'm willing to take up some of my time. While I would have liked it better had they not tied new abilities to JP, and just made them small boosts to improve a job you highly enjoy, at least even if they become more relevant I know I am able to keep up and progress with it, because they've made a fairly wide range of options to do it with.

[Protey]

So my opinions are just as good as anyone else's? Sweet! Thanks!

You're welcome. Mind you, opinions are just that... opinions. They have no weight. Only facts do.




this is a game. there is no such thing as "irreversible damage". SE has made things in this game one way, then come back and reversed them later on.

Such as?

Here is one recent example:


Greetings,

While keeping game balance in mind, we do not have any plans to introduce items that combine elemental gorgets, belts, grips, etc. By separating them by element, we were able to give them very powerful effects, and the team would like you to switch out your equipment if you wish to receive effects from different elements.


Since we've been making adjustments to weapon skills, the timing is just about right for a way to combine all of your elemental gorgets, obis, and belts, so the team will be exploring the ways in which to make this happen.

[Zarchery]

Be sure to stretch properly before performing such intricate mental gymnastics. A person who has a couple hours to play in an evening decides they'd like to work on JPs. There's no parties so they decide to solo. In their two hours of play they don't even get 1 JP. After doing this a few times with no relief in sight they get frustrated and either give up on JPs, thus giving themselves less to do in game and defeating the purpose of JPs, or they quit. Sound healthy for the game? To me it doesn't.


Yeah, they don't get a good rate of job points in the limited time they have, so they do something else. They're still getting their 12 bucks a month worth, and people who do have more time and are also interested in job points also get their 12 bucks a month worth.




Don't put things in quotes that I didn't say. Also you're still attacking me personally with baseless assumptions and adding nothing to the conversation. Seriously that's all you ever seem to do is personally attack people you disagree with. Is that why you're here? Try not being a jerk and actually have a conversation. You can do that, right?

I'm being perfectly civil, aside from my initial statement about whining because you can't cap job points while asleep. You're taking maximum umbrage because you're stubborn and have a major league chip on your shoulder. But there's only so much restraint that can be shown when you're being as obdurate as you are. Unless your idea of having a conversation is just having other people fawn over you and tell you how brilliant your ideas are.

I was paraphrasing this post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45079-The-importance-of-job-points?p=536266#post536266) when you got all huffy and started insisting that because people can't do one particular piece of content because they're too busy, they'll be too bored to play (instead of just doing the dozens of other pieces of content). Then you just said the same thing again in the very same post I'm replying to right now.

Please explain, right now, why anyone should have to go about obtaining job points if they don't have time or don't want to. And don't give me some nonsense like "Square Enix might make content that requires them". Because until a lot of people start including "must have this job point ability" or "must have this many job points" that's a strawman.

[Byrth]

It's easier to change something before it has been implemented than afterwards, so your insistence on current conditions is inane.

[Protey]

I don't even see why people are even complaining about the possibility of some content requiring JP/Gifts. If you can't do that content because you don't have them, so what? Back at 75 cap days you couldn't do HNMs if you were still stuck at level 70 because you hadn't beat Maat. JPs are just another form of level progression (albeit a very very minor progression atm). Get your levels that are needed if you want to do some whatever made up content that doesn't even exist yet. As it stands right now there is no such content. If it were up to me though... new content would be made ridiculously harder compared to content that is out now. Stuff is way too easy. I miss the epic CoP battles. I want to have fights where you can't just stun the NMs TP moves, but actually have to come up with a strategy to beat them. If it gets to a point where we need to have JP/Gifts, so be it. If you don't have them.... tough, don't come to the content or figure out a way to do the content without them. Heaven forbid you have to use your brain to figure out how to get past a difficult situation.... it's almost like we're playing a game.

[Afania]

Be sure to stretch properly before performing such intricate mental gymnastics. A person who has a couple hours to play in an evening decides they'd like to work on JPs. There's no parties so they decide to solo. In their two hours of play they don't even get 1 JP. After doing this a few times with no relief in sight they get frustrated and either give up on JPs, thus giving themselves less to do in game and defeating the purpose of JPs, or they quit. Sound healthy for the game? To me it doesn't.



2hr of playtime a day= casual, :confused::confused::confused:.

A couple of hours to play in the evening isn't casual, it's probably 4 times more hardcore than me. I play around 30 min a day, 5~6 days a week and I have farmed hundreds of JPs with no problem. If someone with 2hr of playtime a day has "limited playtime", I don't know what to say. Perhaps we have POV toward being casual?

2hr of playtime is also more than enough to make a CP pt, mind you. I've done a plenty of 1hr CP pt np.

You said ppl can't get 1 JP in 2hr solo, serious? Sounds like exaggerating. That's like less than 15k CP/hr, which is much lower(like 1/3 or 1/4) than most avg solo CP rate without double CP campaign according discussion on forums. In fact certain job/setup/camp can probably solo 90k~100k/hr np without campaign bonus now.

You don't like JP grind, I get it. But why do you need to exaggerate the solo CP rate/hr just to win this internet argument? Further more, ever since JP introduced I've never heard of anyone quit BECAUSE JP takes time. If you can't cap JP due to the lack of playtime, go do something else.

[Afania]

I'm not ignoring what he said above it, but that deals with current content. What I'm looking at is the future, and unless they make CP far more available, then the future looks bleak. If you don't believe me then the fact that someone like Byrth has a similar notion should tell you something.

If I understand Byrth's opinion correctly(feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), he was saying "The gap between hardcore and casual player's performance shouldn't be huge". Basically he was against the fact that JP makes such a huge difference in terms of performance. He didn't say a thing about "we should be able to cap JP faster" unless I missed something.

If I understand your opinion correctly(again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), you were asking SE to lower JP cost, making every category faster to cap, thus shortening the game's lifespan.

If that's the case then your opinion is not the same as Byrth's opinion at all. Byrth's opinion still keeps hardcore busy with stuff to grind, it's just that hardcore player's performance isn't that much ahead. Your opinion is to ask every hardcore to sit in town and have nothing to do because everything is faster to cap.

[Byrth]

My opinion is compatible with Camiie's. They're just two approaches to solving the same problem

My view is that if something is important for performance, it should be equally accessible to hardcore and casual players. The more SE puts in to the job point system, the more important they are for performance. Back when JPs were just an extra 30 INT for your Avatar during Astral Flow, I didn't really care that they were hard to get. However, now JPs are an extra ~20 MAcc, gear access, and 30 INT for your Avatar during AF. They become more important every update and SE is clearly not planning to stop.

Thus they need to either make it easier for casuals to get job points or keep job point boosts trivial.

[Afania]

Thus they need to either make it easier for casuals to get job points or keep job point boosts trivial.

If that's the case then your opinion isn't the same as Camiie's.

What I wanted to say was, those 2 approaches can solve the same problem, but it would lead to very different results. The former approach shortens the game's lifespan, because hardcore would sit in town with nothing to do if JP are too fast to cap. The latter retains the game's life span, hardcore gets the option to spend their time, and casual won't be too far behind them. I'm against the idea of 10k CP per JP, but I don't mind if hardcore has 1% better performance than casuals, as long as they have something to spend their time on if they want to.

[Tidis]

How the hell do you play 30mins a day and get 100s of JP?

[Afania]

How the hell do you play 30mins a day and get 100s of JP?


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/40657-Mar-18-2014-%28JST%29-Version-Update

Job point was out since march 2014, now it's almost 2015. ATM I can solo over 90k CP/hr without double CP campaign bonus, add double campaign bonus, do the math?

I also said "around 30 min a day", so that's avg number, sometimes I play less than 30 min, sometimes I play more than 30 min. If I play less than 30 min I just solo, if I have more than 30 min of playtime I save them for double CP campaign or join CP pt.

I solo for CP 98% of time so I don't have to spend time on /shout nor camp for /shout, when I log on I went straight to camp instead of afk in town doing nothing, then I log off near camp and log back on the right spot so I save time walking to the camp. If someone else occupied my camp I just log off, do rl stuff then come back later.

[Byrth]

265 days / 2 = 132.5 hours at 3 JP/hr = ~400 job points

Assuming that "hundreds" means >200, tossing in a few double campaigns, and assuming the other things you're saying are true, then you've spent about half your FFXI playtime since the patch soloing job points. That sounds miserable. Just set up a good CP party a few times during the double CP campaign and get >10 JP/hr.

[Afania]

265 days / 2 = 132.5 hours at 3 JP/hr = ~400 job points

Assuming that "hundreds" means >200, tossing in a few double campaigns, and assuming the other things you're saying are true, then you've spent about half your FFXI playtime since the patch soloing job points. That sounds miserable. Just set up a good CP party a few times during the double CP campaign and get >10 JP/hr.

Lol you think I haven't try CP pt?

Most of the time I actually get around the same CP/hr in pt as solo, sometimes less CP/hr in a pt. I need to look for ppl and DD that won't have acc issue, I need to wait for ppl afk/disband mid run and so on. I also don't play on NA prime time, that makes the process of making a pt takes much longer. More than half of the DD from PUG parse terribly low as well. In the long run a CP pt is actually not more efficient than solo, for my timezone at least. In reality CP pt is often not >10 JP/hr because the time it takes to deal with /shout counts. Not to mention the risk of competition......in a pt if the camp was occupied we'd have to change camp, the time it takes to find/move to another camp counts. If I solo I can just log off, do rl stuff and come back later. IMO it's just a more efficient way to use my time.

I don't mind spending half of my time solo for CP anyways, I have pretty much every gear I want in this game except 1 unity NM drop, afterglow and better augment on JSE cap.

If I don't spend half of my playtime solo for CP, I'd spend half of my playtime on building an afterglow or do incursion and get nothing...in that case I'd rather grind for CP instead. There are simply not much else to do in this game besides CP grind anyways.

[Camiie]

If that's the case then your opinion isn't the same as Camiie's.

I'm completely on board with him.


What I wanted to say was, those 2 approaches can solve the same problem, but it would lead to very different results. The former approach shortens the game's lifespan, because hardcore would sit in town with nothing to do if JP are too fast to cap.

Some people are always going to consume content faster than the norm. You can't design an integral aspect of character development with them in mind. That ruins the game for everyone who isn't like them. What you do for the rapid consumers is produce prestige items that they can put all their excess game time toward. That gives them something to do without putting something simple like leveling up out of the reach of the common man.


The latter retains the game's life span, hardcore gets the option to spend their time, and casual won't be too far behind them. I'm against the idea of 10k CP per JP, but I don't mind if hardcore has 1% better performance than casuals, as long as they have something to spend their time on if they want to.

And that would be fine, and that's the direction that SE seemed to be going in at the outset. Now they're throwing in more and more bonuses and even access to certain armor and soon spells as well. I'd like to let them know how terrible an idea that is before things get out of hand.


Bwuh? They need to ask the community for better camps then. Just recently I've been shown a camp in the Woh subgates that is quite handy; using two Capacity ring charges (one right as I was logging off to maintain the buff but tick down the cooldown, one after the first wore), on my DRG/RDM I had gotten two JPs in about 50 minutes, give or take.

OK so where exactly is this Woh Gates camp then? The thing with the community is that many of its members are extremely loathe to share their camps with others. You can ask but you'll generally get silence, ridicule, or lectured on how the secret of the camp must be kept to maintain its integrity.

[Alhanelem]

JP are not as hard to get as the naysayers here are making out; job point bonuses are not as great as they're making out either. You can farm JPs in your spare time if you're not a hardcore player.

The funny part is merit points weren't that easy when they were new and i never saw people complain about it like this (for these reasons at least).

[Tidis]

JP are not as hard to get as the naysayers here are making out; job point bonuses are not as great as they're making out either. You can farm JPs in your spare time if you're not a hardcore player.

The funny part is merit points weren't that easy when they were new and i never saw people complain about it like this (for these reasons at least).

You could go on an optimal job and get merit points for any job, there was only ever a limited scope of jobs that got invited to merit point parties back in the day but because the merit points you got carried across jobs, it didn't matter.

[Alhanelem]

Which only perpetuated bad job balance, since it wasn't critical that they make the less popular jobs able to compete in parties. Now that we have job points job balance is more important and they are, to some degree, taking steps to improve it.

Also you're forgetting that merit points aren't all job specific, the bulk of your merit points are spent on boosts that apply regardless of job.

Job points, in combination with ilvl gear, are intended as "leveling up past 99". You couldn't earn EXP on one job to level up another now, could you? How did those jobs you say can't get job points level up? If you can get to level 99 on the job, you can earn job points on the job. I see no problem here.

[Metaking]

@Camiie
more than likely he is talking about one of the 3 butterfly camps, but unless your a drg or a thf with a really boss acc set and nearly full 119 gear you should not go there, but for where it is, just enter woh gates from bev 4 in Marjami, head ummm i think north past the frog camp(which is actually a great camp if you can sleep them) tell you run into a big room full of acrux(great blm and smn camp) and wide scan one of the rooms joined to that one should be full of efts and butterflys, stretched over 3 rooms, that is the camp you would be looking for. Now if you have a party tho, there is a great camp in woh gates basement near the highwing helm nms spawn point, room full of big bats that have oddly low evasion for there level a bit of def tho, and its kinda funny there cp chain duration is waaaay longer than exp chain duration, and it can build quite high i can rember but i think it was double cp at the time, and was getting 2.5k a kill once the chain got a rolling so i guess normal they would be 1.2k, throw a cor in there and wait for another double cp tho, and yea....

On the issues of gaining cp tho, i would prefer more events like incursion were you get alot of CP simply doing the event, i do think nms in incursion and any new events should probably give half a point at least, and the megaboss like a full point.

[Malithar]

You could go on an optimal job and get merit points for any job, there was only ever a limited scope of jobs that got invited to merit point parties back in the day but because the merit points you got carried across jobs, it didn't matter.

How many jobs are we honestly left with anymore that aren't capable of performing suitably well on essentially trash mobs? I've found myself surprised by most jobs as of late really. They don't all have to perform at a Sam-SC-machine level, if anything, having such a perfected setup hurts you as you end up clearing rooms before respawns roll around, killing your CP chain.

[Alhanelem]

Even club and staff wielding jobs can put on a 119 weapon, and use their merit or other good WS and do sufficient damage to chain mobs that any average person would consider soloing. offensive trusts may not be great but they can still help.

[Camiie]

JP are not as hard to get as the naysayers here are making out; job point bonuses are not as great as they're making out either. You can farm JPs in your spare time if you're not a hardcore player.

The funny part is merit points weren't that easy when they were new and i never saw people complain about it like this (for these reasons at least).

So you really don't see any differences in the way the two systems work that would cause people to not mind merits while despising JPs?


Even club and staff wielding jobs can put on a 119 weapon, and use their merit or other good WS and do sufficient damage to chain mobs that any average person would consider soloing. offensive trusts may not be great but they can still help.

Where would you recommend a SMN go solo for safe max JP/hr?

[Malithar]

Where would you recommend a SMN go solo for safe max JP/hr?

Woh Gates western side where the Umbrils are. I'd be surprised if Flaming Crush from a geared Smn didn't one shot them.

[Byrth]

Summoners get resisted to shit in Woh Gates without a god tier MAcc build. Either way, it's certainly not a safe place for them to solo.

Go to Outer Ra' South quadrant on the first floor. There's a mix of DC Leeches and Acuex. Sub Scholar (with a nuking build) and nuke things to death with Fire and Ice. It's not as good as other magic DDs there, but it's the best easy camp I've found for SMN.

[Malithar]

Focus + Malaise spoils me on soloing Umbrils, tend to forget the issues with MAcc besides in BCs. :( MAcc really that harsh without a strict build, to the point you'd be forfeiting to much damage to kill? Agree with that Acuex room in Outer though, it's very nice and casual. No aggro from any of the mobs, but still gotta watch for links.

[Camiie]

I appreciate the advice. That sure doesn't sound like the smooth and easy JP some people on here are describing though. I mean it's not like the average SMN probably has a nuking set even if they should. Not an attack on you Byrth. I'm not hating the player, just the game.

[Byrth]

Well, Flaming Crush is hybrid damage so it's going to do crap damage to Umbrils even if it hits because Avatar Ratio will be really low.

I did try to do Shiva/Ifrit on Acuex in Woh Gates, though, and typically I couldn't one-shot them even if I didn't resist. IIRC Acuex are weaker to Fire than Ice, and I think I could land Meteor Strike pretty regularly for full damage but not Heavenly Strike. Also, they sound link so they're kind of a pain in the ass. I know that parties of summoners do the Acuex camps there, but if Camiie is looking for easy then that's really not the way to go.

Edit:
Without nuking, SMN is left going /SAM and trying to melee + BP things to death. They would probably be best off targeting some low tier camp (like Stryx south of Waypoint #4 in Marjami), because Flaming Crush damage drops off pretty fast against higher level monsters. Summoner's damage output has always been horrible, but I bet they can still get 1 JP/hr with meleeing, which isn't that unusual for a melee job. In comparison, I can get 2-3 JPs/hr with nuking without bonuses, but I do have a full set of Hagondes +1 with pretty good MAB augments.

[Kensagaku]

OK so where exactly is this Woh Gates camp then? The thing with the community is that many of its members are extremely loathe to share their camps with others. You can ask but you'll generally get silence, ridicule, or lectured on how the secret of the camp must be kept to maintain its integrity.

People can be dumb like that, but I do understand that crowded camps get annoying. >.> I have to deal with a PLD occasionally Ochain/AE burning all the bats in my spot, and it annoys me, but I just steal some of his mobs; if he's gathering them all up, then he can spare a few. If I had a little more confidence I'd just Sonic Thrust the lot of 'em for killshots... but I'd prolly find myself dead. xD

Anyway, I mentioned it but as it was a little snippet, I'll say it again. If you go to the Woh Gates subzone (by subzone, I refer to the secondary Gates zone that you use a crystal to teleport to rather than walking), and then go to the southwest corner, there is a large room filled with bats that con VT-IT. You'll have to use some acc gear and prolly food (I use pizza myself; long duration, atk/acc), but there's tons of mobs. They don't link, but they do sound aggro, so you have to be careful. Oh, and watch out for the true sight hippogryphs on the way, they're nasty.

As a note, despite the claim that people are so hush-hush with their camps, I found this up on the ffxiah forums. >_> Someone asked for good CP camps for THF, and someone brought up that it was a good piercing camp. So asking on various forums is prolly a good way to go. I know there was one person around here who was like "omg my bat camp" but most people don't seem to get all secretive, from what I've seen.

[Byrth]

Guess I'll bump this topic now that we have confirmation that next update will include high tier elemental magic from Gifts.

I'm of two minds about this:
1) We really do need upgraded elemental magic. - I really feel that they either should have directly adjusted elemental magic (like last time), or made a more permanent change that causes it to scale based on iLevel or haste level or main weapon base damage or something, so that we don't have to abandon all the lower tier spells if the new ones are good (or ignore the new ones if they aren't better than the lower tier spells).
2) They shouldn't lock advancement behind Job Points. - If you think about it, our rate of gaining JPs now is about the same as merits at 75. It only cost 18 merits to unlock all the AMIIs or Tier 2 debuffs, though, and it will almost certainly cost more than 50JPs to unlock these Gift spells. It's more grindy than it used to be and the playerbase is less dedicated than we were.

So I'm kind of half-hoping the spells are good and half hoping they're bad. Ideal for me would be if the spells are strategically useful, but not overpowered (like AMIII for BLM), which would allow the update to be followed by another update that actually fixes the elemental magic damage issue.

[Camiie]

Merits and JPs should be about adding to what's already a completely functional job, not trying to fix what's broken about it. If a job is attack starved you don't fix that through JPs and Gifts, you give it Attack Bonus traits beginning at whatever level range it starts falling behind. If a job needs stronger spells just to compete with other forms of DPS, you put the scrolls on vendors and make them super cheap.

I feel like I shouldn't even have to say this. It should just be common sense. As a contractor you don't fix someone's house by telling the owner to go out himself and add on a garage to prop the rest of the house up. You and your employees work to repair the structure and foundation.

[Ulth]

I would think the easiest way to fix spell damage is to increase the amount of magic attack and damage on their ilvl stuff.

[Protey]

about the only way i see magic damage from nukes being viable again is if SE makes NMs that take reduced physical damage, but high magic damage. however, that magic damage will only be from spell magic damage, not from things like formless strikes or skill chains. would be rather nostalgic to bring back the magic burst days. So I suppose they would make it so the magic damage is only high when magic bursting.

[dasva]

Or could take away spell lock... which should be done anyways. Kinda unfair that players effectively are stunned everytime something is cast on them/they cast something but mobs nope. Just the other day had a mob chainspell nuke me and I couldn't do anything until it was done. And not being able to cast something for a couple of seconds after casting another spell even when you are chainspelling is really killing nuking dps. I mean players can melee for no mp cost or button pressing needed several hits a second

As far as spells I hope blm gets an AM III that is basically has stats more like T1-2 nukes in terms of dmg, costs, cast/recast times but with the -resists (maybe bump that up) and the low fixed enmity

[zataz]

just wanna say i farm for 4 hours 2 nights a week with my ls people coming w/e (im cping my pld lol) we have a good time and normally end up with 20 per run its not to terrible

[PlumbGame]

I agree wholeheartedly with much feedback here, though they said they were going to now treat JPs basically as lvling your character pass 99. With that in mind new things like spells should reflect that idea. If they keep there original mind set in mind where JPs were suppose to be extra benefits to your character that weren't necessary, then things like new spells shouldn't require JPs.

I feel as though some of the most recent feedback is directly related that people should be able to have everything without committing more time towards "lvling" your job, IE BLM for new spells, and it is completely warranted since there original ideas were to not make JPs so necessary.

I personally enjoy the idea of it and would further like to see it enhanced to potentially benefit those people who spend more time on X job. People spending more time getting things like JPs on something like BLM should have potentially more power than joe on the corner that just hit 99. Mind you, again, this is all purely off them recently mentioning JPs/Gifts being similar to advancing past lvl 99.

[Camiie]

It would have been nice if they'd been honest with us up front about their intentions for the system. I highly doubt that they changed their minds and 180'd their design philosophy out of the blue. Even if they did do something so irresponsible they should at least have said so and apologized for it.

It's pretty rotten to send players down one path by telling them JPs are something they shouldn't be worried about, to then send them down the opposite path that this is the new primary means of advancement. Some, I guess, saw the writing on the wall and maxed everything out right away. Others took SE's comments at face value and focused on what they thought were more important things. Now the latter group is behind the advancement curve because of their (misplaced?) faith in the dev team.

At the very least I think this drastic swerve in philosophy should net us an extended Double CP Campaign so that people who believed the initial hype can try to get caught up. I truly believe the CP rate needs to be permanently nudged upward since the importance of JPs will soon greatly increase, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

[Protey]

It would have been nice if they'd been honest with us up front about their intentions for the system. I highly doubt that they changed their minds and 180'd their design philosophy out of the blue. Even if they did do something so irresponsible they should at least have said so and apologized for it.

It's pretty rotten to send players down one path by telling them JPs are something they shouldn't be worried about, to then send them down the opposite path that this is the new primary means of advancement. Some, I guess, saw the writing on the wall and maxed everything out right away. Others took SE's comments at face value and focused on what they thought were more important things. Now the latter group is behind the advancement curve because of their (misplaced?) faith in the dev team.

At the very least I think this drastic swerve in philosophy should net us an extended Double CP Campaign so that people who believed the initial hype can try to get caught up. I truly believe the CP rate needs to be permanently nudged upward since the importance of JPs will soon greatly increase, but I'm not holding my breath for that.


wow, think you are entitled much? Doesn't matter that they changed the purpose of JP, things change all the time, just deal with it. Since SE has shown that they take the suggestions on the forums and do make changes I can't let things like this slide, because instant gratification people like you are ruining the game. We are at extremely high level and as such it should take a ridiculous amount of effort to go up even a slight nudge. So SE, please stop these double CP campaigns. Make these people work for their gains, don't just hand it to them. CP is already way to easy to get as is without any campaigns. The people who say otherwise are just lazy. If they really wanted the JPs, they'd go work for them. Watch the abyssea burned noobs cry and say "this is a game it shouldn't be work" lol. Like they have never leveled a job before. They just paid someone to do it for them.

[PlumbGame]

I'm actually confused on the philosphy that if people knew they were going to be important they would of been grinding CPs over what exactly? Sitting in town afk? I am astonished on the idea that people would frown so negatively upon the idea of bring jobs to a new level. Shall we just sit at 99 and have all new designs revolved around progression of your character via lvls thrown at us? I would also like to be able to talk to an NPC that gives me free RMEs every day.

[Tidis]

What people are saying is that when Job Points were announced, they were stated to be bring small improvements to jobs and wouldn't be required, as a result many people, myself included have rarely actively farmed CP, my most job pointed job is THF with 22 job points. The gripe we have now, and something many of us predicted, is that SE are going back on what they initially said job points would be and giving them increasing importance for each job, hell look at BLU, they were pretty useful from the get-go.

This one is directed at PlumbGame, you have a very bad example, it's not a case of farm job points or afk in town, it's a case of farm job points or farm dynamis or farm salvage or do delve or do high tier battlefields etc. There is so much content available right now that gives better reward for time spent than farming job points.

[Alhanelem]

What people are saying is that when Job Points were announced, they were stated to be bring small improvements to jobs and wouldn't be required, as a result many people, myself included have rarely actively farmed CP"required" or not, why wouldn't you want them? and even new spells and abilities aren't "required" if you can already beat the content without them. A new tier of black magic isnt really needed to be added in the first place since all black magic was rebalanced to make lower tiers more DPS efficient. Abilities, it will depend on what they offer mechanically. Regardless it's silly for you to avoid working on an obviously-intended-as-character-advancement system just because you thought it might not be "required." Shouldn't you be wanting them anyway, required or not?

I'm really sick of people fussing over this, its like if they never specifically said that, nobody would be complaining. I have only about as many job points on my main as you and you don't see me complaining about it.

[Byrth]

A new tier of black magic isnt really needed to be added in the first place since all black magic was rebalanced to make lower tiers more DPS efficient.

Kind of off topic, but this isn't true. If you have a good fast cast set and can withstand the MP cost of nuking, higher tier spells are much better. People that spam Tier 1s either don't know what they're doing or don't have any kind of fast cast set (or, most likely, both).

[Roja323]

Erm Just no

T1 nuke does 1.6k (ish), instant cast (0.1 with FC), near instant recast, 4 mp cost (stone)-- 400dmg/mp
T4 nuke does 3.5k (ish), 6 sec cast (1.2s with FC), 30s recast (cant spam it), 112 mp cost (stone) 31dmg/mp

Explain to me how chain casting a t1 nuke to infinity at over 10x the dmg/mp efficiency is worse than doing a few t4 every 15 seconds? Yes you can get more total dmg out in a minute, but you will also be out of mp all the time, while spaming t1 you will never run out of mp, and can always use the nuke the target is weak to.

[Olor]

well Roja

a) Most important content is zerg content so the necessity of constantly having MP is lower - you don't need to maintain MP for hours - just for the duration of the content
b) Most important content includes buffers - no one is bringing nukers anywhere without a BRD or some other kind of refresher - it's easy to have more than 10 MP a tick without gear included

[Zarchery]

It's actually incredibly easy to cap job points on any given job and get all the gifts. I did it on all 7 of my level 99 jobs in a few minutes. All I had to do was lie. Since there is literally no way at all for anybody to see the small stat increases that job points and gifts give you, this is just as good as actually getting the job points from the perspective of other players. This relentless squawking of "job points are too hard to get and now it's not fair because I'm required to get them" is all hogwash.

[Alhanelem]

a) Most important content is zerg content so the necessity of constantly having MP is lower - you don't need to maintain MP for hours - just for the duration of the content
T1 nuke does 1.6k (ish), instant cast (0.1 with FC), near instant recast, 4 mp cost (stone)-- 400dmg/mp
T4 nuke does 3.5k (ish), 6 sec cast (1.2s with FC), 30s recast (cant spam it), 112 mp cost (stone) 31dmg/mpIf this is even remotely close to believeable, the low tier nuke is doing more damgae per second than the high tier nuke; making the higher tier nuke more for when you suddenly need to do a lot of damage (e.g. due to a sudden damage vulnerability, weakness proc, etc).

They specifically made lower tier nukes scale better with magic damage +, this is what causes them to be more efficient. Prior to ilvl and magic damge+ gear, high tier was always the way to go. But things have changed, as far as I can see.

It is worth noting that yes, you only need to be just efficient enough to last through the content; but the lower tier spell isn't merely more efficient, it is more effective over time.

[Alhanelem]

It's actually incredibly easy to cap job points on any given job and get all the gifts. I did it on all 7 of my level 99 jobs in a few minutes. All I had to do was lie. Since there is literally no way at all for anybody to see the small stat increases that job points and gifts give you, this is just as good as actually getting the job points from the perspective of other players. This relentless squawking of "job points are too hard to get and now it's not fair because I'm required to get them" is all hogwash.
The reason people are bringing this up again is becuase they plan to offer new spells/abilities with gifts. I'm still not bothered though. It's a post lvl cap progression system, just like merit points were at 75, therefore it was almost a certainty they would do something like this.

I really dont see the reason for the fuss about speed though. You can get a job point today faster than you could get a merit point when they were brand new.

[Byrth]

Erm Just no

T1 nuke does 1.6k (ish), instant cast (0.1 with FC), near instant recast, 4 mp cost (stone)-- 400dmg/mp
T4 nuke does 3.5k (ish), 6 sec cast (1.2s with FC), 30s recast (cant spam it), 112 mp cost (stone) 31dmg/mp

Explain to me how chain casting a t1 nuke to infinity at over 10x the dmg/mp efficiency is worse than doing a few t4 every 15 seconds? Yes you can get more total dmg out in a minute, but you will also be out of mp all the time, while spaming t1 you will never run out of mp, and can always use the nuke the target is weak to.

The issue here is that you haven't accounted for the forced delay that accompanies any magic action (3 seconds) and seem to care about MP cost and recast. In reality, using mostly your numbers and ignoring MP cost and damage/MP (both irrelevant stats if you can support the MP expenditure, which is what I stipulated):


T1 nuke does 1.6k (ish), 0.5*.2 = 0.1
T4 nuke does 3.5k (ish), 6*.2 = 1.2s

So you've set up:
T1: 1600/3.1 = 516 DPS
T4: 3500/4.2 = 833 DPS

Therefore we seem to agree that T4 spells have higher DPS than Tier 1 spells, which is all that I stated.


If for some reason you want to exclusively spam one tier of spell, Tier 4s start out at 30 second recast. 25% gear Haste, which you probably have accidentally in your iLevel nuking gear, and Haste spell bring it down to 18 seconds, which means that you need to cycle between ~4 of them to never leave the tier.

If you want to talk about MP costs, Spaekona's Coat +1 or Seidr Cotehardie give 2% elemental damage back as MP. 1600*.02 = 32, so Stone is free in your case. 3500*.02 = 70, so Stone IV costs 42 MP per cast and will be free on many conserve MP procs ~20% of your casts). Therefore, 5 casts will take 168 MP and will take 21 seconds (7 ticks). 168/21 = 8 MP/tick. I don't know if your refresh set is good enough to hit that solo, but it's possible and you have to admit it's not unreasonable.

If you want to argue that we're talking exclusively about single-element fights, you're still best off casting high tier nukes and then going down to lower tiers only when your recast isn't up or MP doesn't permit.

The only time Tier 1s are the best is if you want to just sit there and brainlessly cast the same single spell over and over. (and even then they might lose to Tier 2s.)

[PlumbGame]

directed at PlumbGame, you have a very bad example, it's not a case of farm job points or afk in town, it's a case of farm job points or farm dynamis or farm salvage or do delve or do high tier battlefields etc. There is so much content available right now that gives better reward for time spent than farming job points.

I do those everyday and have over 200 jps on thief.

[Tidis]

I do those everyday and have over 200 jps on thief.

Wow because during the week I have at most 6hrs playtime and that would be if I literally got home and played the game until bed, realistically there's food, social activities and maybe even other games, a movie, a bit of TV, so most nights I probably have 2-3 hours playtime and I play catch up at the weekend but you seem to be able to do everything everyday, are you unemployed, work part-time?

[Alhanelem]

The issue here is that you haven't accounted for the forced delay that accompanies any magic action (3 seconds)You can definitely cast tier 1 black magic less than 3 seconds after it finishes casting, unless I have a really funny idea of what "3 seconds" is.


So you've set up:
T1: 1600/3.1 = 516 DPS
T4: 3500/4.2 = 833 DPS

Therefore we seem to agree that T4 spells have higher DPS than Tier 1 spells, which is all that I stated.Again, unless i've gone crazy, it takes more than 4.2 seconds to recast a tier IV spell. That also doesn't factor in the casting time, because you can't start casting until the recast is up. Even with a large amount of haste and fast cast 4.2 seconds from the first spell hitting to the second spell hitting seems way too low.

[Rwolf]

Both post-99 systems are a mess in how they were implemented (Item Level & Job Points). There's nothing wrong with the idea of creating a way for players to progress and ascend, to stagnate too much would make players lose interest. I think most of community agrees on this.

Concerning specifically Job Points, I feel they could have done a better job in communicating their intent. While I realize no one (or company) is perfect, from a constructive criticism standpoint they could stand to be more clear with their future vision of level increases - even if it changes in a matter of months from being a casual edge to a new level progression system.

My personal concerns with Job Points are "fixing" jobs with them. I say fix in quotes because I'm not trying to say these jobs have zero use, but they do have flaws which have been brought up by the community. If there is an overarching issue with a job, it should be directly applied to the job itself. Some jobs have gotten that treatment directly in the past year to correct things (GEO, DRG, PUP, SMN, NIN, etc.) They didn't require additional grinding beyond being level 99. They were just remedied, and I would feel the exact same way if these were added merit points which are easier to accumulate.

Some commonly voiced issues I've seen is pet stats not being enough for content through accuracy, attack or survivability. Also Blue Mage, with additional effects of spells have poor accuracy and set point issues (especially now with the growing set number rate). However, unlike the other jobs it was applied to job points. Blue Mage in particular isn't some helpless job, but that doesn't affect the validity of expecting it to be directly applied to the job.

I can understand the concern of some players that they might be also trying to fix Elemental Magic falling behind with Job Points/Gifts given the announcement of these spells shortly after announcing they are making adjustments to Elemental Magic next. This is a case where it would be beneficial for SE to be a little more clear with communication and explain their plans for Elemental Magic, just as they did with the previous Elemental Magic update.

I'm all for 6 man parties again if that's their agenda for Job Points/Gifts. However, they need to balance jobs more so they are desirable to take to Job Points parties and you aren't stuck with the same bandwagon of jobs. While it might not be the case yet as you pretty much try to take whoever will do them right now. If they continue in the aspect of making it a true level expansion system, players will start to optimize and exclude when desirability rises, like any other content.

(geez... that was a long post. sorry)

[Alhanelem]

I don't think job points are a "mess." the only thing people are crying about is 1) speed and 2) "wah wah they said it wasnt "important"!"

In fact Job points are very superior to merit points in that the only limiting factor is time. You're not imposed arbitrary limitations on what you can upgrade (you can get all of the upgrades given enough time).

The best way to get them is to form parties, but they can still be earned solo with trusts. It's a throwback to the good ol days in a way. Form a good party and you can really rack 'em up. Trusts help any job be able to obtain them, even those that typically arent the best at soloing.

Personally though, I think the doubled rate should be the standard rate. :p but its still doable. I think the upcoming additions are good because more people will start caring about job points and there will be more farming parties out there.

[PlumbGame]

Wow because during the week I have at most 6hrs playtime and that would be if I literally got home and played the game until bed, realistically there's food, social activities and maybe even other games, a movie, a bit of TV, so most nights I probably have 2-3 hours playtime and I play catch up at the weekend but you seem to be able to do everything everyday, are you unemployed, work part-time?

Ok, I see the issue. You feel because you don't have the time, you should be given everything. That isn't how MMOs work. I hate to break it to you.

Time to start making priorities in your FFXI career or don't advance your character through JPs. Should you instantly have lvl 99 characters also because you choose to do dyna vs lvling them?

[Rwolf]

I personally think the implementation is a mess not the idea, but you're welcome to your opinion. I shouldn't speak for others, it's ignorant. I will say I haven't seen much resistance to a new grind. I have seen resistance to adding "fixes" or how the implementation and communication of Job Points has been handled.

I agree that the doubled rate should be the standard rate. I personally think they are trying to add too many other ways to compensate (campaigns, rings, capes, gifts, COR roll) for the natural low amount. Adding so many options to boost the speed of content they just added not long ago, seems to be a sign to just naturally boost the base gain. I'm personally OK with change of importance. My concerns are base CP rate with too much augmenting methods and leaving job issues out of job points.

[Raydeus]

Ok, I see the issue. You feel because you don't have the time, you should be given everything. That isn't how MMOs work. I hate to break it to you.

Time to start making priorities in your FFXI career or don't advance your character through JPs. Should you instantly have lvl 99 characters also because you choose to do dyna vs lvling them?

Now I'm curious, exactly how many hours do you play every day?

[dasva]

You can definitely cast tier 1 black magic less than 3 seconds after it finishes casting, unless I have a really funny idea of what "3 seconds" is. It's really easy to not really notice small amounts of time. Try chainspell stuff you'll only get about 20 casts before it wears off and that is with actually instant casting/recast. The forced delay for ja, ws, and magic has been highly documented for years. It's why I suggested one improvement for really mages in general was to get rid of it. Though if they got rid of ja forced delays dnc would gain a lot... and given they recently got rid of it for maneuvers they clearly can. Also getting rid of it for the aftershot for ranged would be huge and basically the main thing holding back ranged dmg right now as we can get almost as much snapshot as melees get haste but have this stupid forced wait after that nothing lowers


Again, unless i've gone crazy, it takes more than 4.2 seconds to recast a tier IV spell. That also doesn't factor in the casting time, because you can't start casting until the recast is up. Even with a large amount of haste and fast cast 4.2 seconds from the first spell hitting to the second spell hitting seems way too low.

You should've read what he wrote after that. Since you didn't I'll paraphrase: there are 6 T4 nukes, cycle thru them and you'll never run into recast issues. That 4.2 is accounting for the cast time and the forced delay

[PlumbGame]

Now I'm curious, exactly how many hours do you play every day?

My play time is irrelevant to the entitlement players think they deserve. If you don't farm JPs, that isn't SE's fault. I farmed 20 JPs in 1 hour of a CP party the other day. That is apparently more CP than most the people complaining in this thread have. Yet they don't have the time? 1 hour is a lot of time? Choosing to dyna or some sort of content over farming JPs warrants handouts?

That being said, make sure my position is clear. I don't care if there is a change or not to the rate JPs are gained. IDC if they give players spells that require JPs or not. I do care that players are trying to validate their laziness to receive benefits.

[Camiie]

The reason people are bringing this up again is becuase they plan to offer new spells/abilities with gifts. I'm still not bothered though. It's a post lvl cap progression system, just like merit points were at 75, therefore it was almost a certainty they would do something like this.

I really dont see the reason for the fuss about speed though. You can get a job point today faster than you could get a merit point when they were brand new.

You're going by the assumption that things were perfectly fine back then and that things haven't improved significantly in the meantime. I prefer content follow today's pace rather than the pace of yesteryear, so I'm going to push for that. I don't want the old FFXI back in any way shape or form.


My play time is irrelevant to the entitlement players think they deserve. If you don't farm JPs, that isn't SE's fault. I farmed 20 JPs in 1 hour of a CP party the other day. That is apparently more CP than most the people complaining in this thread have. Yet they don't have the time? 1 hour is a lot of time? Choosing to dyna or some sort of content over farming JPs warrants handouts?

That being said, make sure my position is clear. I don't care if there is a change or not to the rate JPs are gained. IDC if they give players spells that require JPs or not. I do care that players are trying to validate their laziness to receive benefits.

Actually I have 50 JPs on my DNC, 20+ on my WAR, and a smattering on other jobs. I can get them pretty fast even though I know I'm way behind some people. That's not really the point. SE lied to us. Not changed their minds. They lied. They should do something to make up for lying to their customers.

Also if JPs are the new primary form of progression then they need to flow at a rate that better represents the present day pace of the game, and not the pace of the game from 7 years ago. It's fine IMO to have some limitations on them such as where they can be obtained, but the rate before bonuses kick in is just too low for something that's only going to become more and more valuable as time goes on and something that scales the way they do.

[PlumbGame]

You're going by the assumption that things were perfectly fine back then and that things haven't improved significantly in the meantime. I prefer content follow today's pace rather than the pace of yesteryear, so I'm going to push for that. I don't want the old FFXI back in any way shape or form.

Progression via the idea of lvls isn't ok? You prefer handouts? Because that is what you imply. You don't want to work for your JPs, so you think its unfair that you wouldn't have access to same things JPs provide to a player that has worked for JPs. It's obvious you don't want old FFXI back because you obviously want to sit in town all day and win the game. You farm JPs now faster than MOST partys if not ALL partys could get merits back in the days. For you to say otherwise would imply that you obviously know how to play with other people in an MMO (in your case actually some kind of solo game where you get everything doing nothing) and should have no issues farming JPs in the first place making your points irrelevant.

Giving the actual proof of the population vs the population now and days, it is actually warranted that things were better then than now. I don't know what kind of proof you could provide to say otherwise but till you do it's pretty obvious that more people enjoyed the previous years of FFXI than not, though it's not really relevant for this topic so really shouldn't be discussed.

Again, JPs are gained at a faster pace, just because you are apparently doing it wrong, doesn't mean they aren't.


Actually I have 50 JPs on my DNC, 20+ on my WAR, and a smattering on other jobs. I can get them pretty fast even though I know I'm way behind some people. That's not really the point. SE lied to us. Not changed their minds. They lied. They should do something to make up for lying to their customers.

Also if JPs are the new primary form of progression then they need to flow at a rate that better represents the present day pace of the game, and not the pace of the game from 7 years ago. It's fine IMO to have some limitations on them such as where they can be obtained, but the rate before bonuses kick in is just too low for something that's only going to become more and more valuable as time goes on and something that scales the way they do.

I'm sorry, but you are not new here. You are mad that they lied to you? Then why didn't you quit "7 years ago"? SE, just like every other MMO, reserves the right to change there mind about anything they want. Also, given the time frame that they mentioned this would happen, I'm sure there has been plenty of time to build up a plethora of CP. They didn't just yesterday say that JPs are going to be more important and all the sudden hit us with a patch tomorrow.

Let's say you are in a party that obtains 10CP an hour. That takes 11 hours to cap out 2 entire catagories, and give ALL the current gift rewards. 11 hours...... and it actually gives you 15 more JPs than needed. Again...... 11 hours...... IDK what world you live in, but that is significantly faster than the game "7 years ago". That is 3.3mil exp from CP........

[Roja323]

The issue is assuming mp isnt Limiting, which is fine for single target bcnm/high level fights, but stuff like CP parties/delve its 100% not even close to possible.

A mage with 0 mp after 1 fight is doing 0 dps, so on anything where you have to keep your mp for more than 1 blown load, t4 is not practical, even if it is higher DD. In a 1 and done burn, sure, go for t4s, but if I invite a mage to a cp party and they do great DPS for 1 fight and sit out the next 10, theres no point in having them there.

[FrankReynolds]

Giving the actual proof of the population vs the population now and days, it is actually warranted that things were better then than now. I don't know what kind of proof you could provide to say otherwise but till you do it's pretty obvious that more people enjoyed the previous years of FFXI than not, though it's not really relevant for this topic so really shouldn't be discussed.

TLDR; there are thousands of reason why people quit and yours is probably pretty low on that list.

I used to play like 8+ hours a day back when the game came out (been playing since JP release). The game was tedious and annoying, but I really didn't have much else to do when I got off work at midnight and I lived at my moms house. Now I don't even get to play a lot of days. On the other hand, I used to live at my moms house, work late and get paid crap. Now I have a hot wife, a huge house (and a couple vacation homes) and an @ $500k income. I also have a crapload more games to play now. FFXI has gotten a lot better, or I would have cancelled it a long time ago. So, no. Saying that the game was better back then and that is why people quit is not warranted.

As I'm sure you already know, 99% of the stuff that was in the game back then is still in the game now. If you / they really liked the game the way it was, you'd still be playing it that way.

It's not black and white. Just because people don't like the way something has changed doesn't necessarily mean that they liked the way it was before either.




Progression via the idea of lvls isn't ok? You prefer handouts?

This seems to be the argument in every thread on this forum.

"Oh, you don't like the way XXXX works? You just want everything handed to you!"

I don't really see how you can say that something is super easy and shouldn't be changed without admitting that you yourself enjoy hand outs. If you honestly don't think that earning JPs is difficult, then why do you care what happens to them at all? Do you enjoy things that aren't challenging? Are handouts only okay when they work for you?

[Byrth]

Did you ignore the part of the post where I calculated it would only take ~8 refresh to maintain tier 4 spam with your damage numbers?

[Raydeus]

My play time is irrelevant to the entitlement players think they deserve. If you don't farm JPs, that isn't SE's fault. I farmed 20 JPs in 1 hour of a CP party the other day. That is apparently more CP than most the people complaining in this thread have. Yet they don't have the time? 1 hour is a lot of time? Choosing to dyna or some sort of content over farming JPs warrants handouts?

That being said, make sure my position is clear. I don't care if there is a change or not to the rate JPs are gained. IDC if they give players spells that require JPs or not. I do care that players are trying to validate their laziness to receive benefits.

That's a lot of writing just to avoid giving a direct answer.

[Roja323]

Did you ignore the part of the post where I calculated it would only take ~8 refresh to maintain tier 4 spam with your damage numbers?

I have 8mp idle refresh and cannot maintain t4 nukes, so your math is off. I guess if your a blm who doesnt swap weapons and can use a staff ws to refill mp, sure..... but as a geo who is constantly using indi/geo spells, if i do anything other than t1's i will be out of mp after 1 boss and might not be able to keep up indi/geo on the next boss.

Numbers are great on paper, but go out and try to prove it before you open your mouth.

[Byrth]

I have capped job points on GEO and BLM. Use those equipment pieces I wrote about.

[PlumbGame]

This seems to be the argument in every thread on this forum.

"Oh, you don't like the way XXXX works? You just want everything handed to you!"

I don't really see how you can say that something is super easy and shouldn't be changed without admitting that you yourself enjoy hand outs. If you honestly don't think that earning JPs is difficult, then why do you care what happens to them at all? Do you enjoy things that aren't challenging? Are handouts only okay when they work for you?

Are you even reading what people are saying in this thread? They literally are saying they think its unfair that they would have to farm JPs to advance their characters.


That's a lot of writing just to avoid giving a direct answer.

Cool story. Stop trying to derail the topic.

[Protey]

This seems to be the argument in every thread on this forum.

"Oh, you don't like the way XXXX works? You just want everything handed to you!"

More like: Person A doesn't like the way XXXX works so Person A is going to complain to try and make it multiple times easier regardless of how that effects the worthiness of playing the game because Person A is an instant gratification person.


I don't really see how you can say that something is super easy and shouldn't be changed without admitting that you yourself enjoy hand outs. If you honestly don't think that earning JPs is difficult, then why do you care what happens to them at all? Do you enjoy things that aren't challenging? Are handouts only okay when they work for you?


I'll make an educated guess as an answer for PlumbGame, but don't take my response as his words: he is not for changing something that is easy into even easier.

Personally, I want Job Points to be even more difficult to get. So yes I want change, make them even more of a grind. Why? Because we are of such a high level that it should require an enormous amount of effort just to go up even a small amount.

[Alhanelem]

You should've read what he wrote after that. Since you didn't I'll paraphrase: there are 6 T4 nukes, cycle thru them and you'll never run into recast issues. That 4.2 is accounting for the cast time and the forced delay Cycling through them is potentially considerably less effective depending on the target.


You're going by the assumption that things were perfectly fine back then and that things haven't improved significantly in the meantime.No, I don't think merit points were particularly defective when they were new. But what we have here is something that happens in every MMO: A new progression system is initially slow or difficult, and it gradually gets eased over time. The same thing is already happening with job points. They started horrendously slow with no way to boost them whatsoever. Then they added chains, added bonus rings, did periodic campaigns, added gifts that boost CP gain, added capes that boost CP gain, and I'm sure they're not done yet. EXP got easier over time, merits got easier over time, JP will get easier over time. It's natural and normal for new systems.

[Stompa]

More like: Person A doesn't like the way XXXX works so Person A is going to complain to try and make it multiple times easier regardless of how that effects the worthiness of playing the game because Person A is an instant gratification person.




I'll make an educated guess as an answer for PlumbGame, but don't take my response as his words: he is not for changing something that is easy into even easier.

Personally, I want Job Points to be even more difficult to get. So yes I want change, make them even more of a grind. Why? Because we are of such a high level that it should require an enormous amount of effort just to go up even a small amount.

I agree with you Protey. There is a clue in the term "Job Points" they are career-related. And jobs in real life, you (generally) get the rewards based on your input. If I chose to flip burgers for a living, I shouldn't stand around complaining because I don't get the same rewards as a Brain Surgeon gets. The Brain Surgeon had to put decades of study into his job before he was even qualified for it lol. And I see FFXI Job Points as a similar deal, its the same as real life where jobs are based on a tiered punishment/reward system. If you want the rewards for that higher tier job, you have to put in the qualifying effort.

Similiarly, it is a lot easier to progress in a real-life career job if you have a passion for / interest in that particular field of work. I feel the same about job-points, I actually didn't mind farming job-points on the two main jobs I play most, for the simple reason I am interested in the mechanics of those jobs and I enjoy playing them.

Also I think you're right about the difficulty, although I expect this to balance out when we are on the higher brackets of job points, and you are looking at 500~1000 job-points to cap your job. I think that will only be possible if you are completely devoted to your job and prepared to play it as a virtual career. I think it makes a positive change from the "day out at the Zoo" type of afk/leech progression we saw in Aby.

[Zarchery]

What I think is particularly odd about this argument is that the "job points are becoming critical to playing the job because they said they'd add new spells and job abilities!" argument is being made with absolutely no clue what those spells and job abilities are, or how good they are. It's like arguing about the quality of a movie that hasn't been released.

I don't know why "this thing exists" equates to "this thing is important". If job points are too hard for you don't do job points. It absolutely disgusts me that people think "this thing exists, I like it, so I deserve to have it!"

[Protey]

Also I think you're right about the difficulty, although I expect this to balance out when we are on the higher brackets of job points, and you are looking at 500~1000 job-points to cap your job. I think that will only be possible if you are completely devoted to your job and prepared to play it as a virtual career. I think it makes a positive change from the "day out at the Zoo" type of afk/leech progression we saw in Aby.

yea, SE said they'd like to bring JP to level 30. If they continue the same progression, that would mean 465 JP to cap one category. I'm loving just the thought of it.

[Camiie]

Once people start comparing their video game characters to real life careers that's a good sign we've gone completely off the rails of reason and crashed head on into Absurdity Station.

[FrankReynolds]

More like: Person A doesn't like the way XXXX works so Person A is going to complain to try and make it multiple times easier regardless of how that effects the worthiness of playing the game because Person A is an instant gratification person.

Person A pays just as much for the game as everyone else. What makes the game worthy of playing for person A is of just as much value as what person B likes. Unfortunately, person B only seems to like things if they bother person A. As can be clearly deduced by the the complete and utter lack of even one single "I wish job points were more important and took far more work to earn" posts.


Personally, I want Job Points to be even more difficult to get. So yes I want change, make them even more of a grind. Why? Because we are of such a high level that it should require an enormous amount of effort just to go up even a small amount.

Yeah, I'm sure that you very genuinely feel that way. That's why instead of asking the devs to do anything even remotely like that, you are here calling people lazy. /s


Are you even reading what people are saying in this thread? They literally are saying they think its unfair that they would have to farm JPs to advance their characters.

It is unfair. People didn't want to grind JP. They were told that they wouldn't need to, so they didn't. Now they're being told that not only did they need to, but they are way behind. People tend to get pissed about stuff like that. It's an incredibly basic concept.




Personally, I think they should have just expanded the merit point system. The game is starting to become a mess of random points and currencies.

[Zarchery]

It is unfair. People didn't want to grind JP. They were told that they wouldn't need to, so they didn't. Now they're being told that not only did they need to, but they are way behind. People tend to get pissed about stuff like that. It's an incredibly basic concept.

But they don't need to. Who is saying that?

When the system came out, it was "here are job points, here is how you get them, here are the bonuses you get from them".

Now it's the same message but the bonuses are different. What do you think are the consequences of NOT doing job points now? What do you think were the consequences a year ago when the system was introduced?

[Protey]

Person A pays just as much for the game as everyone else. What makes the game worthy of playing for person A is of just as much value as what person B likes. Unfortunately, person B only seems to like things if they bother person A. As can be clearly deduced by the the complete and utter lack of even one single "I wish job points were more important and took far more work to earn" posts.


Yeah, I'm sure that you very genuinely feel that way. That's why instead of asking the devs to do anything even remotely like that, you are here calling people lazy. /s

As is typical with your posts, you make up whatever garbage you want and state it as if it is fact. Eat crow:


And as to your complaint of how obtaining Job Points is considerably worse than leveling up traditionally.... every game I've played where there was a soft cap (cuz that's pretty much what this is) it gets ridiculously hard to go up even one level. We are at the pinnacle of levels, it shouldn't be easy to go up higher. If it were up to me, it would be even more difficult.


... If it were up to me though... new content would be made ridiculously harder compared to content that is out now...


...We are at extremely high level and as such it should take a ridiculous amount of effort to go up even a slight nudge. So SE, please stop these double CP campaigns. Make these people work for their gains, don't just hand it to them. ...



It is unfair. People didn't want to grind JP. They were told that they wouldn't need to, so they didn't. Now they're being told that not only did they need to, but they are way behind. People tend to get pissed about stuff like that. It's an incredibly basic concept.

Another one of your blatant falsehoods. You are changing your definition of NEED in the same paragraph. If by NEED you are referring to content, then there is still no NEED. If by NEED you are referring to gaining extra things through CP, then there has always been a NEED.



You really should stop posting, except for the one or two gullible people that are liking your posts, people are wise to your falsehoods.

[FrankReynolds]

But they don't need to. Who is saying that?

When the system came out, it was "here are job points, here is how you get them, here are the bonuses you get from them".

Now it's the same message but the bonuses are different. What do you think are the consequences of NOT doing job points now? What do you think were the consequences a year ago when the system was introduced?

There were virtually no consequences when they were introduced. They were introduced as something that would have little to no bearing on how well the job performed. A small bonus that could be acquired through normal participation in events people were already doing. Now, they are an event in and of themselves and they make a considerable difference for some jobs. Not only that, but they are an event where a lot of people / jobs have to solo. If what they say now is true, that difference will only get bigger and bigger.

It's fine if you just want to keep them how they are, but it's pretty silly to pretend that you don't know why people are upset.

[PlumbGame]

There were virtually no consequences when they were introduced. They were introduced as something that would have little to no bearing on how well the job performed. A small bonus that could be acquired through normal participation in events people were already doing. Now, they are an event in and of themselves and they make a considerable difference for some jobs. Not only that, but they are an event where a lot of people / jobs have to solo. If what they say now is true, that difference will only get bigger and bigger.

It's fine if you just want to keep them how they are, but it's pretty silly to pretend that you don't know why people are upset.

I'd like to point out that many jobs actually benefit a decent (not decent, but can take advantage of a lot of JPs) amount from JPs, though they have never been NEEDED and considering the only content to come with feb patch is Aluvion Skirmish, they will probably still not be needed. Can we stop creating fallacies to support whatever is being complained about. If most of you complaining went and spent time JPing instead of complaing you would probably have more JPs. Time is money, stop wasting it.

[FrankReynolds]

I'd like to point out that many jobs actually benefit a decent (not decent, but can take advantage of a lot of JPs) amount from JPs,


Now, they are an event in and of themselves and they make a considerable difference for some jobs.


though they have never been NEEDED and considering the only content to come with feb patch is Aluvion Skirmish, they will probably still not be needed.

Well since they aren't needed, I guess you have no reason to be arguing one way or the other. Seeing as you don't need the job points, I guess what happens with job points won't matter to you at all. You can just go out and kill things mindlessly forever....

That is unless you actually want job points. In which case you have no business telling someone else that they shouldn't have them.


Can we stop creating fallacies to support whatever is being complained about. If most of you complaining went and spent time JPing instead of complaing you would probably have more JPs. Time is money, stop wasting it.

I can farm JP and do this at the same time. That's how boring it is. I'm also watching netflix.

[dasva]

I have 8mp idle refresh and cannot maintain t4 nukes, so your math is off. I guess if your a blm who doesnt swap weapons and can use a staff ws to refill mp, sure..... but as a geo who is constantly using indi/geo spells, if i do anything other than t1's i will be out of mp after 1 boss and might not be able to keep up indi/geo on the next boss.

Numbers are great on paper, but go out and try to prove it before you open your mouth.
blm isn't geo which was precisely what his numbers. The whole 2% convert thing is friggin huge and game changing. To the point where a blm can spam T2 with 0 refresh gear and never run out. Not to mention you aren't spamming 250 mp buff/debuffs on blm. But yes in that very specific situation no geo it might not be quite as good. Especially if you aren't getting any refresh buffs.

Now back to all things blm and any situation where on geo where either you aren't constantly having to recast indi/geo (though I can't see any reason you would constantly cast indi) or ones where you can full circle your loupan your mp is a lot better. Alternatively you could take advantage of that same 2% brokenness with Seidr Cotehardie. Sure your nukes wont be as much dmg as with normal nuking body but as you've already said continued nuking is better than a little bit of dmg

And I might suggest that before you try to "prove" someone's numbers are wrong with an anecdote to make sure you read what he actually wrote so you don't end up arguing against a completely different situation especially if you want to be so antagonistic about it

[Zarchery]

There were virtually no consequences when they were introduced. They were introduced as something that would have little to no bearing on how well the job performed. A small bonus that could be acquired through normal participation in events people were already doing. Now, they are an event in and of themselves and they make a considerable difference for some jobs. Not only that, but they are an event where a lot of people / jobs have to solo. If what they say now is true, that difference will only get bigger and bigger.

It's fine if you just want to keep them how they are, but it's pretty silly to pretend that you don't know why people are upset.

What are these considerable differences? How are any of them so considerable that they become an absolute requirement? Some of them are GOOD, yes. I love the extra 500 HP curing I get from Chakra from having 10/10 Chakra job points on Monk. I did that because I enjoyed farming the job points and I enjoy maximizing the strength of Chakra. But if I hadn't done this, I'd still be a functioning Monk.

In Spring of 2012, they added Arise and Meteor scrolls for WHM and BLM. Arise is a great spell: 3 minute weakness, full HP raise, and reraise effect. Meteor is kinda crummy unless you can get other Black Mages to chain cast with you. Because of the scarcity, they cost 25 million gil. I like my WHM and put a lot of pride into being a good WHM, but I wasn't going to spend 25 million on a single spell. But on your reasoning, because Arise existed, and was actually good, it was now "required", and I was obligated to farm gil to raise the 25 million. I didn't do that. I didn't get the spell until about a year later when the price came down under 5 million (now it's even cheaper). I still functioned as a WHM just fine.

This is what infuriates me about this thread. People are saying "I don't want to farm job points and I thought I wouldn't have to but now Square Enix is changing the system to make it so I have to!!!!".... but nobody provides any actual evidence of how the job points are required. It's all just "job points exist, and I want them, so they are required". You still didn't answer my question. I asked "what are the consequences of not having job points"? Instead you acted all huffy and dodged the question by pretending it was rhetorical.

Job points are no more "required" than something like Ginsen or Tinhaspa or Jugo Kukri or any Mythic weapon. They're pretty much just like merit points only harder to get.

[Protey]

Well since they aren't needed, I guess you have no reason to be arguing one way or the other. Seeing as you don't need the job points, I guess what happens with job points won't matter to you at all. You can just go out and kill things mindlessly forever....

Your guess would be wrong. Just because one doesn't need something doesn't mean one shouldn't be concerned with it. I will give you an example: I don't need to eat New York Strawberry Cheesecake, but I like the way it tastes and so it would concern me if suddenly people tried to have the taste of it changed. The same thing goes with JP, you don't need them, but they provide a benefit and so even though one doesn't need them, one can be concerned with them.


That is unless you actually want job points. In which case you have no business telling someone else that they shouldn't have them.


Him saying not needing does not equal not wanting. Nor did he say anything of not wanting them. And nowhere did he say that people shouldn't have them. This is just more of you making up falsehoods and stating it as if it is fact.

[FrankReynolds]

What are these considerable differences? How are any of them so considerable that they become an absolute requirement? Some of them are GOOD, yes. I love the extra 500 HP curing I get from Chakra from having 10/10 Chakra job points on Monk. I did that because I enjoyed farming the job points and I enjoy maximizing the strength of Chakra. But if I hadn't done this, I'd still be a functioning Monk.

But you wouldn't have done it without the job points. Because getting something good for your monk is fun and wacking monsters endlessly is not.


This is what infuriates me about this thread. People are saying "I don't want to farm job points and I thought I wouldn't have to but now Square Enix is changing the system to make it so I have to!!!!".... but nobody provides any actual evidence of how the job points are required. It's all just "job points exist, and I want them, so they are required". You still didn't answer my question. I asked "what are the consequences of not having job points"? Instead you acted all huffy and dodged the question by pretending it was rhetorical.

Nothing is required. You can stand around a starter zone wacking level one mobs for all eternity because you don't actually NEED to level up or gear or anything. Saying people don't need them is meaningless. If you don't need them then you shouldn't care how I get them.

This all boils down to people wanting things. You want job points to remain the same. Other people want to max out their characters without having to farm (as much) JP to do it.

The only difference is that you can wack monsters until they shut down the servers if that's what you like, regardless of the existence of job points or any changes to them. There are no consequences for you either way. Even if they make every monster give 1,000,000 JP, The monsters remain and you are free to kill them as much as you want. Or if you wanted, you could just take off some gear to make them harder again.

People who don't want to kill the same monsters for ever and a day don't have that freedom. They have to give up on maximizing their character if they don't like it.

If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them.



Your guess would be wrong. Just because one doesn't need something doesn't mean one shouldn't be concerned with it. I will give you an example: I don't need to eat New York Strawberry Cheesecake, but I like the way it tastes and so it would concern me if suddenly people tried to have the taste of it changed. The same thing goes with JP, you don't need them, but they provide a benefit and so even though one doesn't need them, one can be concerned with them.

And if that cheesecake suddenly cost $10,000 a slice would that make it taste any better? No. The only purpose it would serve for you would be keeping other people from having cake.


Him saying not needing does not equal not wanting. Nor did he say anything of not wanting them. And nowhere did he say that people shouldn't have them. This is just more of you making up falsehoods and stating it as if it is fact.

Next time your parents / significant other / boss ask you for something, tell them "You don't need that" and see how that works out for you.

[PlumbGame]

But you wouldn't have done it without the job points. Because getting something good for your monk is fun and wacking monsters endlessly is not.



Nothing is required. You can stand around a starter zone wacking level one mobs for all eternity because you don't actually NEED to level up or gear or anything. Saying people don't need them is meaningless. If you don't need them then you shouldn't care how I get them.

This all boils down to people wanting things. You want job points to remain the same. Other people want to max out their characters without having to farm (as much) JP to do it.

The only difference is that you can wack monsters until they shut down the servers if that's what you like, regardless of the existence of job points or any changes to them. There are no consequences for you either way. Even if they make every monster give 1,000,000 JP, The monsters remain and you are free to kill them as much as you want. Or if you wanted, you could just take off some gear to make them harder again.

People who don't want to kill the same monsters for ever and a day don't have that freedom. They have to give up on maximizing their character if they don't like it.

If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them.




And if that cheesecake suddenly cost $10,000 a slice would that make it taste any better? No. The only purpose it would serve for you would be keeping other people from having cake.



Next time your parents / significant other / boss ask you for something, tell them "You don't need that" and see how that works out for you.

Stop taking things out of context to support your fallacies some more. Lvling up in the game is essential to basically play the game since the majority of content revolves around end game. JPs are not needed have not been needed and still are not needed to play your jobs for ALL END GAME.

EDIT: Removed some stupid stuff as to hopefully not create tensions though you don't make any sense and your analogies are awful.

[Olor]

And if that cheesecake suddenly cost $10,000 a slice would that make it taste any better? No. The only purpose it would serve for you would be keeping other people from having cake.


Thank you for digging down to the core of the argument.

[Raydeus]

Cool story. Stop trying to derail the topic.

What are you so afraid of? Just tell how many hours you play a day so we can have a better context for what you are saying about this topic.

[Stompa]

I think the core issue that is dividing people here seems to be the disparity between "casual easy content / box-ticking content" and "achievement-based advanced content."

Currently there are a lot more things that fall into the former category. Just about everything outside Seekers areas can now be solo'd with ilvl gear and trusts, including former mega boss HNM etc. and formerly difficult missions. Almost all mobs outside SoA are too weak or incredibly easy prey. 99.9% of NMs outside SoA present no challenge at all for a solo player with ilvl gear and trusts. RME can be pretty much solo'd with a few stages requiring groups (HMP etc.) but the vast majority is easy and soloable. WKR, skirmish and most delve are also not overly difficult.

There is actually very little content that falls into the second category, the "devotion-based advanced content." I would argue that attaining high levels of Job-Points is intended to, and succeeds in, providing an advanced long-term building process for people who want something they can achieve and feel proud of. Not so much now with the current Job-Points maximum brackets, but in the future when Su2 Su3 Su4 gear arrive and the brackets are expanded and require mindboggling amounts of CAP to max out. Those future expansions to the Job Points group brackets, could pose a serious and advanced long-term challenge for those that want it.

And I can only see this as a very good thing. Because if you like super easy short-term content, you've got just about everything in the world that falls into that category lol. Don't complain because other people who have long wanted an advanced long-term character development process, and a sense of pride in their job accomplishments, have now got that option.

[PlumbGame]

What are you so afraid of? Just tell how many hours you play a day so we can have a better context for what you are saying about this topic.

24/7

10chars

[dasva]

24/7

10chars

27/7 or gtfo

[Zarchery]

Nothing is required. You can stand around a starter zone wacking level one mobs for all eternity because you don't actually NEED to level up or gear or anything. Saying people don't need them is meaningless. If you don't need them then you shouldn't care how I get them.

This all boils down to people wanting things. You want job points to remain the same. Other people want to max out their characters without having to farm (as much) JP to do it.If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them..

I would never call anyone lazy for not having job points. I would call them lazy for demanding that they get to have them without doing anything. What the Hell does it matter how much somebody wants something? That is such an infuriating sense of entitlement to say "I want this! I don't want to put in any effort! Gimme!" You sound like a 5 year old.

I don't want to go around beating on mobs for nothing in return. I want to beat mobs for progression. When I get job points, I want it to mean something. I want it to mean that I put effort into obtaining something I am proud of. What the Hell is the point of even playing a video game if everything is just given to you effortlessly?

Again, you keep dodging the question. The topic here is on the importance of job points. As in, are job points becoming so important that you must have them to function in the game? What is the consequence of not having capped job points? The only consequence any of you guys can come up with is "I don't have capped job points!"

The consequence of not going through the effort to obtain a mythic weapon is that you don't have a mythic weapon.
The consequence of not having Delve wins is that you don't have access to certain useful pieces of gear.
The consequence of not getting to Sea is that you can't reforge artifact and Dynamis armor.

The consequence of ALL this is the same: if you don't actually put in the effort to obtain a goal, you don't get the benefits of that goal. You said you had a high paying job and several homes. I'd like those things. Can I have them while I just sit at home all day goofing off? It shouldn't make any difference to you if you still have them. And going by your logic... I deserve those things and it's unfair if I don't have them.

What kind of game do you want? Something where you just log on and get everything because you don't want to put in any effort? Why can't these people just do the 6000 other things that require minimal effort and can be soloed? Honest to God, you sound like a child bickering because mommy gave big brother a fancy new toy.

And you know what? I actually think there IS room for improvement in the job points system. I'm not actually totally with Protey on this. I'd like to see something like the +75% XP bonus Expertise Ring purchasable with login points, but for Capacity Points. I'd like to see them cut down the crazy evasion on those VT/IT mobs in the Gates zones so that you don't need a BRD/COR/GEO to roll (no matter how much accuracy I stack on my level 119 Monk I still can't get these things to check as anything but high evasion without adding on sushi... and even with sushi they're still high evasion if I don't stack accuracy gear). I'd actually love to see Double Capacity Points be a scheduled thing, say 7 to 10 days a month, instead of a random occurrence.

But here's the thing about making things easier..... they're still too hard for some people who lack patience. If you cut down the number of CP per job point to 10,000, you KNOW that people would demand it to cut down to 5,000 or 1,000. If you made double CP permanent, that would become the new normal and people would want more. People still complain about levelling being too slow even though XP and limit points are thrown at us left and right.

What I don't think is that job points are anything more than a "nice thing to have" like a mythic weapon or Tinhaspa or Jugo Kukri or Emet Harness. You don't get any of these things unless you put in some effort.

[Camiie]

I think the core issue that is dividing people here seems to be the disparity between "casual easy content / box-ticking content" and "achievement-based advanced content."

Currently there are a lot more things that fall into the former category. Just about everything outside Seekers areas can now be solo'd with ilvl gear and trusts, including former mega boss HNM etc. and formerly difficult missions. Almost all mobs outside SoA are too weak or incredibly easy prey. 99.9% of NMs outside SoA present no challenge at all for a solo player with ilvl gear and trusts. RME can be pretty much solo'd with a few stages requiring groups (HMP etc.) but the vast majority is easy and soloable. WKR, skirmish and most delve are also not overly difficult.

There is actually very little content that falls into the second category, the "devotion-based advanced content." I would argue that attaining high levels of Job-Points is intended to, and succeeds in, providing an advanced long-term building process for people who want something they can achieve and feel proud of. Not so much now with the current Job-Points maximum brackets, but in the future when Su2 Su3 Su4 gear arrive and the brackets are expanded and require mindboggling amounts of CAP to max out. Those future expansions to the Job Points group brackets, could pose a serious and advanced long-term challenge for those that want it.

And I can only see this as a very good thing. Because if you like super easy short-term content, you've got just about everything in the world that falls into that category lol. Don't complain because other people who have long wanted an advanced long-term character development process, and a sense of pride in their job accomplishments, have now got that option.

I thought that's what 119 Afterglow RMEs were for. Job Points isn't your answer to being a special snowflake looking down upon the unwashed masses. Eventually SE will stop adding to the system, and/or up the CP rate (much to Protey's chagrin) and even half-assers will cap out just like most people have with merits. If you want to stand out you need something more skill based or something that requires a dedicated group. You need gated content, not a mindless grind.

[Zarchery]

Nothing in this game is skill based. Stop acting like it is. All new content becomes difficult at first, then someone develops a popular strategy, and everybody copies it, and suddenly it's easy.

I don't look down on anyone because of the job points I've accumulated. I look with pride upon myself because it's something I achieved with effort because SE gave me the option to achieve something. Unlike Camiie, who seems to believe that this is somehow wrong, and that "this thing exists" = "I am entitled to this thing".

I have asked over and over again, but the question is endlessly dodged. If job points are a mindless grind you do not like, why do you just not hunt for job points? It seems the answer is "because then there is something I don't have!!!! That's not right!"

Funny.... a year ago we were all fine not having any of these things.

[Stompa]

I thought that's what 119 Afterglow RMEs were for. Job Points isn't your answer to being a special snowflake looking down upon the unwashed masses. Eventually SE will stop adding to the system, and/or up the CP rate (much to Protey's chagrin) and even half-assers will cap out just like most people have with merits. If you want to stand out you need something more skill based or something that requires a dedicated group. You need gated content, not a mindless grind.

Yes Afterglow is indeed another advanced long-term project, for most people.

However. You can BUY afterglow with enough gil. And while farming gil does take effort, it is also luck based, you might have a LS which spams high value events and you get lucky on the drops all the time. You might win the mogbonanza and get rich. Many people have.

The point is that you can't buy maxed Job Points. There is no luck involved. It is all effort. Luck only plays a small part in Job Points, relating to the practical issues such as "having a LS that lets you play your main job to Job-point runs." My own LS prefers that I go on Whm, as I have played Whm for them since 2004 and am considered a "safe pair of hands" ie. reliable on Whm. This means in practical terms that I had to go solo my Job-points on my main jobs (Pup and War) because I don't want to tell my LS that they need another Whm when they are relying on me to be their Whm.

And afterglow makes your weapon "complete" while it does not in any way change your actual character. So afterglow is not the same category as Job Points at all. The former can be bought with gil, partly through luck, and does not actually involve your character's personal development.

For many years I and many others have asked for "specialist classes" which are advanced versions of your main job, where you can refine your chosen job qualities to higher levels and to match your unique individual play-style. Merit-points were a little bit too limited and cookie-cutter to actually offer a seriously customised advanced job. Job points offer a very good potential path to creating the advanced job / specialist class.

As for "eventually SE will stop adding to the system" well they kept adding to merit-points for almost a decade, even if it was minor alterations, the point is that merit-points were still an active system for many years, despite merits being very limited in many respects. And so why should we not expect SE to keep adding to Job-points for many years too? When job-points (unlike merits) really does offer the potential to be an 'open-door' type of customisable character development, with greater potential choice and customisability.

And I never said it was skill-based, unless you are farming CAP solely from IT++ mobs, in which case your personal game skills will enable the party to maintain momentum. The option of soloing CAP on EP mobs does not require skill, merely persistence, and allows people on low-pop servers with empty linkshells, to obtain CAP at a slower pace. But it still requires devotion to your job. You can't solo millions of EP mobs for CAP unless you care about advancing your job.

I will ignore the "you look down on other people" because it is not true, and it is also a remarkably cheap shot.

My point, which you missed, was that FFXI in 2015 is largely "box ticking", and that maxing your Job-points represents a "box that can't just be ticked." Less so now, but in later stages I would expect maxing your job points to be a great undertaking, and only something you could do if you really cared about your job and were prepared to work on it for long periods of time.

Get new character, solo it to lvl 30 with trusts ; tick box.
Get lvl 99 and capped merits in Aby, in short time ; tick box.
Get AF set in a few hours, upgrade in a few weeks to 119 ; tick box.
Get Alluvion 119 weaps and augment, in a few weeks ; tick box.
Solo ZM COP TOAU WOTG without breaking a sweat ; tick box.
Get free stuff from login / goblin box / special freeby events ; tick box.
Obtain quadrillions of Capacity Points to customise your character development further ; ti....omg a box I can't just tick. Cry wail weep. :mad:

[Seillan]

I was going to add my own two gil but Stompa has pretty much stated my feelings on this -- and much more thoroughly at that.

I will say that I'm having a hard time understanding why some people that play rpg games like this seem to have such a problem with grind heavy character progression -- something that's practically always been an integral part of them. Hell, I'm the type of player that likes to see near unobtainable forms of progression that take years of effort to even come close to achieving (AC1 and 2 probably came closest to achieving that, as well as EQ with the AA grind.) It's not because I want to "look down on the unwashed masses" or because I want to be a "special snowflake" (which is a ridiculous insult imo, since I see nothing wrong with games giving us a way to differentiate ourselves; in fact, I greatly prefer it), it's because I love being able to progress my character at all times. I never want to be "finished" because those incremental additions to my character keep me invested and engaged. The more I work at it, the more I feel my character is my own. I mean, just look at mmorpgs with relatively quick level and gear caps and without any form of alternate advancement. What happens when people "finish" their characters there? They either roll an alt and do it all over again or they quit the game until the next expansion. I remember seeing this happen all the time on the WoW forums. People with nothing to do to better their characters, who had exhausted all content, and were left fiddling around with their garrionsville. That's not the kind of thing I'd personally like to see in FFXI.

If job points really aren't necessary for any of the previous or even current content, then what's the harm of having them as one of the long term sources of progression? It's that very kind of prospect that has kept my interest in this game -- even during the period I wasn't able to play at all -- and it will likely keep me playing for the long term. A feat most others in the genre have failed at in recent years. This kind of game should always be about the journey, not the destination.

[Protey]

But you wouldn't have done it without the job points. Because getting something good for your monk is fun and wacking monsters endlessly is not.

So what, if you want something you should have to earn it. Period.


Nothing is required. You can stand around a starter zone wacking level one mobs for all eternity because you don't actually NEED to level up or gear or anything. Saying people don't need them is meaningless. If you don't need them then you shouldn't care how I get them.

Wrong. Just because something isn't needed doesn't mean one shouldn't care about it. Also, it isn't about how you get them, it's about how everyone gets them.


The only difference is that you can wack monsters until they shut down the servers if that's what you like, regardless of the existence of job points or any changes to them. There are no consequences for you either way. Even if they make every monster give 1,000,000 JP, The monsters remain and you are free to kill them as much as you want. Or if you wanted, you could just take off some gear to make them harder again.

Here you go making up garbage again. It's not about being able to kill monsters, it's about achieving something. So yes there are consequences. If JP are just handed out, it ceases to be an accomplishment.


People who don't want to kill the same monsters for ever and a day don't have that freedom. They have to give up on maximizing their character if they don't like it.

Tough. People who don't want to put in effort to obtain something don't deserve it. They can do without. If your real life situation doesn't allow you to have time, then tough, deal without it. If your real life didn't allow you enough play time to go cap exp from 1-99 on multiple jobs would you suggest that they get it just by buying the game?


If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them.

Wrong. You are taking away worthiness of the game. That would be yet another achievement that was just handed out instead of earned. And please don't state garbage like your worthiness is not the same as other's worthiness. It's still making an accomplishment not an accomplishment.


And if that cheesecake suddenly cost $10,000 a slice would that make it taste any better? No. The only purpose it would serve for you would be keeping other people from having cake.

What does raising the price of the cheesecake have to do with what we were arguing about? Nothing. We were talking about your statement of not needing something means you shouldn't be concerned with it is false. Since that was lost on you I will give another example: I don't need my appendix, but I would be very concerned whether it bursts or not. Also, just to humor your non-relevant remark, raising the price of the cheesecake does not keep others from having the cake, they just have to (like everyone else) spend more time to be able to get it. If they don't have the time, tough, just because something exists doesn't mean you are entitled to it, nor should you get it easily.



Next time your parents / significant other / boss ask you for something, tell them "You don't need that" and see how that works out for you.

It works out just fine, because like we are trying to do here, we explain why it isn't needed. Then the person (except you for some reason) realizes it is a want, not a need. Also, none of them play this game so how is what you are saying even relevant? That's right, it isn't.

[Protey]

If most of you complaining went and spent time JPing instead of complaing you would probably have more JPs. Time is money, stop wasting it.

I'm beginning to wonder if he (Mrkillface aka FrankReynolds) even plays the game anymore. Looking at FFXIAH he has 2 JP and hasn't bought or sold anything from AH since September.

edit: added specifically who I was referring to.

[Tidis]

Why are you people equating "We would like CP easier to obtain" to mean "We want CP for doing nothing"

[Protey]

Why are you people equating "We would like CP easier to obtain" to mean "We want CP for doing nothing"

why? because of comments like this:


If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them.

[Protey]

And you know what? I actually think there IS room for improvement in the job points system. I'm not actually totally with Protey on this. I'd like to see something like the +75% XP bonus Expertise Ring purchasable with login points, but for Capacity Points.

Actually, I did say before that CP should have the same way of obtaining as EXP. For instance I suggested that there should be a crafted ring as well for CP just like the Resolution Ring.

[FrankReynolds]

I would never call anyone lazy for not having job points. I would call them lazy for demanding that they get to have them without doing anything. What the Hell does it matter how much somebody wants something? That is such an infuriating sense of entitlement to say "I want this! I don't want to put in any effort! Gimme!" You sound like a 5 year old.

Gross exaggeration. No one said or demanded that.


I don't want to go around beating on mobs for nothing in return. I want to beat mobs for progression. When I get job points, I want it to mean something. I want it to mean that I put effort into obtaining something I am proud of. What the Hell is the point of even playing a video game if everything is just given to you effortlessly?

Another gross exaggeration. No one asked for it to be given to them. And let's be honest here. Killing weak mobs is easy. The only achievement you are unlocking is longer log in time.


Again, you keep dodging the question. The topic here is on the importance of job points. As in, are job points becoming so important that you must have them to function in the game? What is the consequence of not having capped job points? The only consequence any of you guys can come up with is "I don't have capped job points!".

If you're not sure what job points do, go look it up. I think we all know that they aren't going to continue adding more powerful items and stats to the job point system without increasing the difficulty of content. That would be incredibly dumb. You can stop pretending that they aren't. We also know that being a requirement from a technical standpoint has nothing to do with being able to beat the content. It's about actually getting into groups to do the content in the first place. Just because you can beat <XXX> on a butt naked white mage doesn't mean anyone is going to let you come.


The consequence of not going through the effort to obtain a mythic weapon is that you don't have a mythic weapon.
The consequence of not having Delve wins is that you don't have access to certain useful pieces of gear.
The consequence of not getting to Sea is that you can't reforge artifact and Dynamis armor.

The consequence of ALL this is the same: if you don't actually put in the effort to obtain a goal, you don't get the benefits of that goal.

If you look back, you'll notice that they decreased the requirements for all those events because people were discouraged by them. Games that aren't fun don't make money. Insane difficulty and / or time sinks only hold the interest of a very small demographic. For many people, everything about FFXI fits that definition.

In all honesty, they should be rewarding stuff like that with aesthetic items that are functionally the same, but with unique appearances and / or titles instead. It doesn't make sense to reward people who like a challenge with things that make everything less challenging.


You said you had a high paying job and several homes. I'd like those things. Can I have them while I just sit at home all day goofing off? It shouldn't make any difference to you if you still have them. And going by your logic... I deserve those things and it's unfair if I don't have them.

Oddly enough, that's exactly how I got them. I learned how to manage servers, websites, networks etc. while playing video games late at night. Goofing off.

There are base requirements in life that society deems necessary just like there are in the game. You don't need a car or a house or nice clothes to survive. You can go all "naked and afraid" and sleep in a hut made of pine needles. But nobody is going to want to hang out with you. That's where job points are headed. No one wants to play with the guy who is way behind in performance. Even if he is good enough to beat the content. Because, people don't want a group that can beat the content. They want a group that will beat the content and fast.


What kind of game do you want? Something where you just log on and get everything because you don't want to put in any effort?

Yes, because that's the only choice. There is absolutely no way that they could ever just lessen the requirements. That would be impossible. They have to either keep them exactly the same or remove the requirements entirely. there is no other choice. There can be no middle ground. If they even gave one more CAP per kill, the whole game would implode. /SMH


Why can't these people just do the 6000 other things that require minimal effort and can be soloed? Honest to God, you sound like a child bickering because mommy gave big brother a fancy new toy.

Why can't you?


And you know what? I actually think there IS room for improvement in the job points system. I'm not actually totally with Protey on this. I'd like to see something like the +75% XP bonus Expertise Ring purchasable with login points, but for Capacity Points. I'd like to see them cut down the crazy evasion on those VT/IT mobs in the Gates zones so that you don't need a BRD/COR/GEO to roll (no matter how much accuracy I stack on my level 119 Monk I still can't get these things to check as anything but high evasion without adding on sushi... and even with sushi they're still high evasion if I don't stack accuracy gear). I'd actually love to see Double Capacity Points be a scheduled thing, say 7 to 10 days a month, instead of a random occurrence.

I agree, but I'd rather see them become what they said they were going to be. A bonus that would accrue just by regularly playing the job. Not something that you had to specifically go do for hours and hours. You keep complaining about people wanting something for nothing, but in this case that's exactly what it was supposed to be. These weren't advertised as a challenge like a relic or something. They were advertised as something that would just happen as natural progression from playing the jobs.


But here's the thing about making things easier..... they're still too hard for some people who lack patience.

Maybe, but I think there's a happy middle ground somewhere and this ain't it.


What I don't think is that job points are anything more than a "nice thing to have" like a mythic weapon or Tinhaspa or Jugo Kukri or Emet Harness.

It literally took me 10 minutes to get my tinhaspa.

Please see the countless threads / posts / discussions / websites complaining about certain gear / stats being "Required" by group leaders even though they aren't actually necessary to win the fight. It's about efficiency. Not just winning.


I have asked over and over again, but the question is endlessly dodged. If job points are a mindless grind you do not like, why do you just not hunt for job points? It seems the answer is "because then there is something I don't have!!!! That's not right!"

Because having job points makes new content easier. Being able to do content more easily makes you more desirable to groups and other players. Being desirable gets you invited to events, parties, link shells etc. . All of these things make the game more enjoyable. Sometimes you have to do things you don't like to get things that you do like. The problem is when the part that you don't like outweighs the part you do. You can't make all the people happy all the time, but they can certainly do better than this.

[Olor]

And please can we stop ignoring that JP are way harder to get on some jobs than others... and ironically those are the jobs that the devs are "fixing" with job points rather than just fixing the jobs...

Honestly there are so many straw men in here it's a wonder anyone can breathe. No one is suggesting we all just should log in and be handed max job points -

What people are saying is this system was sold as a tiny little bonus you got for playing your fave jobs. Except, instead they are adding what should be core class abilities or class fixes to this horrendous grind. FFXI is already the most grindy game ever - we really didn't need this as a new required grind.

And yeah yeah before people say "they won't be required" that's nonsense and we all know it. Christ we could all beat voidwatch without the minor bonuses for atmacites but group leaders still shouted for people that had maxed out certain ones.

Honestly if it was just an extra 5 accuracy or something I wouldn't worry about it, but the difference between a BST pet with 2% extra haste or one with 30% haste is pretty huge. These aren't minor differences, especially for a job that needs all the help it can get.

I don't work somewhere where I can grind job points all day and I have other hobbies I want to engage in after work. I came back to FFXI because I could have fun playing it casually. If it's going to turn into PLEASE GRIND 500 HOURS KILLING MOBS MINDLESSLY BEFORE YOU CAN JOIN CONTENT... ughhh no thanks.

Anyway we should all be concerned about it because whenever devs put a system this grindy in place it is not because they are planning to add a lot of new content. But hey if you think it's worth paying a 15+ sub per month to kill the same mob over and over again with no variation or even actual content...

[Crevox]

And please can we stop ignoring that JP are way harder to get on some jobs than others

Personally, when I shouted to make a Woh Gates CP party (which I did a lot during the event, and more to fill missing spots), I just shout (job) (anything) and just go with whatever we get. The party fills up very fast and we're out there within 5-10 minutes. Any time we ever do poorly (which is rare) it's because the players are undergeared or underskilled. I've had DRKs, multiple PUPs, no WHM, no BRD, whatever. I've also had RUNs and even a PLD (though the PLD was sub nin and dual wielding Burtgang and Excalibur). I never had a BST ask to join. The most common job, was, of course, THF, but there was also a lot of BLU.

We just go with what we get, and usually get at least get 300k CP/hr during the event. The only time it was lower is when people keep AFKing or, like I said, the players are not good, not because of the jobs. It was also a good source of sparks and accolades, and a lot of Sacred Kindred Seals. I made pretty good gil just off the sparks.

Granted, as a SMN, I am fulfilling the roles we're missing, but a lot of players can do that. If we're missing heals, I just play healer. We always have buffs (Hastega II/etc), so we're in decent shape there. Dancers can heal too (or anyone can sub dancer), we had PUPs bringing white mage automatons, lots of jobs can provide other useful buffs, etc. We had people subbing Corsair just to do Corsair's Roll, the same can be done with mage jobs for haste, hunter's roll for accuracy if you need it (sushi is fine), whatever.

If you want to get CP, just make a party. The public shout parties might deny you, but that's just because the person making the party wants a specific setup. You can still make sure you get at least one person who can heal or buff, and there's multiple viable camps. I just finished pretty much all my job point categories on Summoner within 3 days during the event, missing only one category that I don't really care about (and already have enough stored to max the two new ones).

And yeah, getting CP can kinda take a while, but it just depends on how much you want and how much time you want to spend. Like I said, I was getting 300k/hr (375k+ with corsair) with random party setups, which is around 10 job points per hour. That's about 6 hours to max one category. They definitely need to add more ways to get CP (new alluvion skirmish maybe) but Incursion and delve are pretty good too (my GEO has all gifts just off of doing delve). The system is a little grindy and takes a while, but you can finish it all up for a job (or the categories you care about) pretty quickly if you just push it during a CP event.

[Urteil]

Today I saw somebody leveling in Woh gates or Sih gates or some adoulin shit. The character names were Hyuran and Miqoten. It was at that point I realized that this game will be here forever.

[Protey]

If you're not sure what job points do, go look it up. I think we all know that they aren't going to continue adding more powerful items and stats to the job point system without increasing the difficulty of content. That would be incredibly dumb. You can stop pretending that they aren't. We also know that being a requirement from a technical standpoint has nothing to do with being able to beat the content. It's about actually getting into groups to do the content in the first place. Just because you can beat <XXX> on a butt naked white mage doesn't mean anyone is going to let you come.

Then you won't be able to do the content. Make yourself better to the point where you are accepted. Or, /gasp, make your own party.



If you look back, you'll notice that they decreased the requirements for all those events because people were discouraged by them. Games that aren't fun don't make money. Insane difficulty and / or time sinks only hold the interest of a very small demographic. For many people, everything about FFXI fits that definition.

Precisely why people are trying to prevent people like you from making it less grindy. If you want a less grindy game, go play something else, there are many out there. Stop trying to make FFXI less like FFXI.



There are base requirements in life that society deems necessary just like there are in the game. You don't need a car or a house or nice clothes to survive. You can go all "naked and afraid" and sleep in a hut made of pine needles. But nobody is going to want to hang out with you. That's where job points are headed. No one wants to play with the guy who is way behind in performance. Even if he is good enough to beat the content. Because, people don't want a group that can beat the content. They want a group that will beat the content and fast.

Oh, you are psychic now. You've already foreseen all this new content that requires a certain level of JPs and that people won't get invited. Oh and mysteriously you are somehow unable to make your own parties.


Yes, because that's the only choice. There is absolutely no way that they could ever just lessen the requirements. That would be impossible. They have to either keep them exactly the same or remove the requirements entirely. there is no other choice. There can be no middle ground. If they even gave one more CAP per kill, the whole game would implode. /SMH

They should go the other way, give less CP per kill. And do away with all these double CP campaigns.



I agree, but I'd rather see them become what they said they were going to be. A bonus that would accrue just by regularly playing the job. Not something that you had to specifically go do for hours and hours. You keep complaining about people wanting something for nothing, but in this case that's exactly what it was supposed to be. These weren't advertised as a challenge like a relic or something. They were advertised as something that would just happen as natural progression from playing the jobs.

And one can still get them just by natural progression from playing the jobs. You don't have to go get them. Your argument is void.



Please see the countless threads / posts / discussions / websites complaining about certain gear / stats being "Required" by group leaders even though they aren't actually necessary to win the fight. It's about efficiency. Not just winning.

So go make your own party. Or are you incapable of making things happen for yourself?

[Crevox]

This happened a lot in my parties:



Player: hi can I come drg?
Crevox: sure, of course
Player: wow ok ty




Player: hi i have brd, whm, thf
Crevox: bring whichever you want
Player: can i come drk?
Crevox: sure, if that's what you want to bring, that's fine
Player: ok ty

[Protey]

What you people fail to realize is that the game is a journey, not an end point. When you make things easier to get, you make it so people don't want to play. Why? because there is nothing to do. That is why you have people only logging on for new content, which is rare. By having long term goals with grindy requirements, there is something to do. If some of you have it your way we'll be capped out on JPs/Gifts in no time and then what, SE will have to come out with new content. Now I'm pretty sure everyone does want new content, but without grindy requirements the new content will be beaten in short order and people will have nothing to do again. So SE has to come out with even more new content. However, that is not something that can be done in a short amount of time. Also, by coming out with new content over and over again in a relatively short time we have things like what happened with Skirmish gear. I know I was a bit peaved with spending 90 million gil on using stones then having to do it all over again with the +1 gear a short time later. So stop advocating for making things less grindy.

[Stompa]

What you people fail to realize is that the game is a journey, not an end point. When you make things easier to get, you make it so people don't want to play. Why? because there is nothing to do. That is why you have people only logging on for new content, which is rare. By having long term goals with grindy requirements, there is something to do. If some of you have it your way we'll be capped out on JPs/Gifts in no time and then what, SE will have to come out with new content. Now I'm pretty sure everyone does want new content, but without grindy requirements the new content will be beaten in short order and people will have nothing to do again. So SE has to come out with even more new content. However, that is not something that can be done in a short amount of time. Also, by coming out with new content over and over again in a relatively short time we have things like what happened with Skirmish gear. I know I was a bit peaved with spending 90 million gil on using stones then having to do it all over again with the +1 gear a short time later. So stop advocating for making things less grindy.

I can vouch for the problem of making things too easy and how that results in people quitting the game. The LS I am on has always been your typical "new player LS" and we have always picked up any new player we find, and helped them with the stuff they need, things that other more snobby LS refer to in the derogatory term "no needy noobs." Our LS has been around forever and has always been happy to take them and their needyness lol.

One thing I noticed in the years 2010~2014, and more noticeably after SoA arrived, was that we had a steady flow of new players joining all the time, and they leeched aby sandsweepers from lvl 30~99 plus capped merits, all in short time, and all while wearing their New-Adventurer pyjamas, often not using a single /ja, /ma or /ws for those whole 69 levels plus hundreds of merits.

What happened was that they ended up standing in Adoulin on lvl 99 (capped merits) barely a fortnight after joining the game, and within a month they were saying stuff like "omg not more delve / WKR / skirmish" and "I'm so bored" and "I quit." The LS saw many of these new players join the game and reach endgame stage within a few weeks, and then quit the game in boredom a few weeks later.

And the difference between new players arriving on the LS in 2004~2009, they took ages to get lvl 75 and they dreamed of one day having capped merits. And they didn't quit. Those players stayed on for years, not weeks. And made lots of friends on the journey too.

And because the levelling process had given these new players the "journey" mindset which you mentioned, this made them more enthusiastic about other journeys in FFXI such as crafting/missions/quests/RME etc. This is very different to the new players our LS saw leeching Aby in their pyjamas and then saying how bored they were and quitting after a fortnight. So I think you are right, when the journey is taken away, people end up standing around at the destination and just kicking dust.

Also if the double CAP events are going to be really really frequent, like more frequent than normal capacity times, they should just call those double-events "normal CAP" events and other times "half CAP" events lol. Next week, a special rare event, half capacity points! :p

[FrankReynolds]

Make yourself better to the point where you are accepted.

Why do you think people are asking for lower requirements on the JP system? They want to be better...


Precisely why people are trying to prevent people like you from making it less grindy. If you want a less grindy game, go play something else, there are many out there. Stop trying to make FFXI less like FFXI.

I'll do what I want. I've been playing this game since the JP release and I'll keep trying to make it better for me and other people like me until they shut it down whether you like it or not. Deal with it.


Oh, you are psychic now. You've already foreseen all this new content that requires a certain level of JPs and that people won't get invited.

No, I just possess adequate mental faculties to recognize a trend that hasn't changed in over ten years of FFXI.


Oh and mysteriously you are somehow unable to make your own parties.

Yes. People who don't have experience because they don't get invites have a much harder time actually leading groups. Leading a bunch of failed runs adn / or constantly asking someone else to lead your party quickly leads to people not joining your groups.


And one can still get them just by natural progression from playing the jobs. You don't have to go get them. Your argument is void.

You don't have to get them either. You can waste time killing bunnies all day without the JP system. Your argument is void.


So go make your own party. Or are you incapable of making things happen for yourself?

I'm very capable. I'm just not a dick to people who aren't.

[Alhanelem]

No, I just possess adequate mental faculties to recognize a trend that hasn't changed in over ten years of FFXI.Like the trend of merit point abilities being required? Nobody ever really complained about that, so there's no reason to complain about it now. The only basis for the complining i see currently is "But SE said JP/gifts were going to be a minor thing!" - and this is really the only valid reason to complain, because they said one thing and maybe (i dont really agree) did another. If they never said that, there would be zero basis for the complaint, as it is extremely obvious that job points are a character progression/customization system, just as merit points were, so its not fair to complain about things that are common to both now when they didn't complain in the merit point days.

[FrankReynolds]

Like the trend of merit point abilities being required? Nobody ever really complained about that, so there's no reason to complain about it now. The only basis for the complining i see currently is "But SE said JP/gifts were going to be a minor thing!" - and this is really the only valid reason to complain, because they said one thing and maybe (i dont really agree) did another. If they never said that, there would be zero basis for the complaint, as it is extremely obvious that job points are a character progression/customization system, just as merit points were, so its not fair to complain about things that are common to both now when they didn't complain in the merit point days.

Really? People never complained about merits? Seriously? So you're telling me that if I go to any FFXI fan site that there aren't going to be hundreds of old threads full of people complaining about how only four jobs ever get invited to merit parties and what a pain in the ass it was to get merits on just about anything but red mage, samurai, dragoon or bard? I just imagined myself going bard and red mage to merit parties for like 8 years? That didn't happen?

Because I could have sworn that people were complaining about that stuff a lot, for years. And that was with a system where you could actually earn the points for all your jobs on whatever job that people wanted you to be on.

Or did you mean that there weren't thousands of posts about how XXXX job is required to have some crappy skill merited that they really don't like using? Or how they have to sacrifice skill on the job they like because everyone expects them to put the merits in some other job they hate? Because I'm pretty sure that there has been plenty of complaining about the merit system.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen you posting in some of those very same threads quite a bit...

[PlumbGame]

Really? People never complained about merits? Seriously? So you're telling me that if I go to any FFXI fan site that there aren't going to be hundreds of old threads full of people complaining about how only four jobs ever get invited to merit parties and what a pain in the ass it was to get merits on just about anything but red mage, samurai, dragoon or bard? I just imagined myself going bard and red mage to merit parties for like 8 years? That didn't happen?

Because I could have sworn that people were complaining about that stuff a lot, for years. And that was with a system where you could actually earn the points for all your jobs on whatever job that people wanted you to be on.

Or did you mean that there weren't thousands of posts about how XXXX job is required to have some crappy skill merited that they really don't like using? Or how they have to sacrifice skill on the job they like because everyone expects them to put the merits in some other job they hate? Because I'm pretty sure that there has been plenty of complaining about the merit system.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen you posting in some of those very same threads quite a bit...

There was 1 period in time when people preferred X jobs for BIRD parties. Merits existed outside this time frame and smart people knew of many different merit spots than just birds to satisfy their merit hunger. Just because you didn't know about them doesn't mean they didn't exist. I knew of several party setups that existed in things like trolls, you have blm burn parties on puddings etc... Hell, I knew many many MANY people not using ideal setups for bird parties and still doing merits at the same rate.

Anyways, more fallacies, again, to support your ignorant claims/stances. Sadly I'm starting to get confused a bit on your stance because you seem to just be arguing for the sake or arguing now. Fact is realistic time frames have been given and many people with 100s of JPs have given their 2 cents on how easy they are to obtain already in all actuality. So your points are pretty moot there, unless you are talking about wanting to gain JPs solo and just as fast across the board on all jobs, I would have to remind you this is an MMO where usually you play with other people. Hard idea right?

Again, JPs have not been needed, are not needed, and as far as our knowledge will still not be needed to clear content. Unless magically the alluvion skirmish coming out for yorcia requires only blms with new tier spells, which I'm pretty confident to say will not be required, which was really the basis of the most recent arguments was not having access to these new tier spells. That being said, there has also been SIGNIFICANT amount of time with SEVERAL double CP campaigns to save up enough jps etc. You should shoot SE an email and ask them to lvl your jobs to 99 for choosing to do something like dyna with the time available to play the game. This seems to be the direction of your fallacies. Maybe while you are at it you can get a free relic or a mythic. Maybe you tell them you spend so much time farming alex you haven't been able to farm dyna, so you shouldn't have to work for a relic.

[FrankReynolds]

There was 1 period in time when people preferred X jobs for BIRD parties. Merits existed outside this time frame and smart people knew of many different merit spots than just birds to satisfy their merit hunger. Just because you didn't know about them doesn't mean they didn't exist. I knew of several party setups that existed in things like trolls, you have blm burn parties on puddings etc... Hell, I knew many many MANY people not using ideal setups for bird parties and still doing merits at the same rate.

Heh... So I guess by saying that you knew how to merit better than me, that's supposed to somehow erase all those complaints from all those people over all those years huh? Just by saying that, it somehow means that they were all really satisfied and happy? Interesting logic... Terrible, but interesting.

For what it's worth, I had WHM, BRD, SAM, MNK, RDM, NIN and WAR with capped merits and all relevant HNM / endgame gear with the exception of relics on my main character and a second character (The one I play now since I lost my original JP Character) with RDM, BLM, WHM, BLU, DNC, THF, MNK, BST and NIN and most end game gear and merits as well back at 75 cap so you can save the tough talk.

But, skill level or knowledge is irrelevant. The fact is that thousands of people did have a problem with the merit system. Myself included. Just because I was good at it doesn't mean that I liked it.


Anyways, more fallacies, again, to support your ignorant claims/stances.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. See implying that me not being good at XXXX activity somehow means that thousands of people collectively lied about not liking that activity for for years for no reason is a logical fallacy. Me sucking at the game doesn't have anything to do with other peoples enjoyment of the merit system.


Sadly I'm starting to get confused a bit on your stance because you seem to just be arguing for the sake or arguing now. Fact is realistic time frames have been given and many people with 100s of JPs have given their 2 cents on how easy they are to obtain already in all actuality.

I could say that "getting rich as a plus size model in a panda bear costume for Superbowl beer commercials is easy! I did it and you can too!". Hell, it might even actually be easy. But that doesn't mean that people are going to run out, buy a panda suit and quit their day jobs. Telling people something is easy doesn't make them hate it any less. Again, look up the meaning of fallacy.


So your points are pretty moot there, unless you are talking about wanting to gain JPs solo and just as fast across the board on all jobs, I would have to remind you this is an MMO where usually you play with other people. Hard idea right?

Again. Telling people to just go get some friends isn't going to make it happen. You seem to have a really difficult time differentiating between what you think people should do and what people actually want / can do.


Again, JPs have not been needed, are not needed, and as far as our knowledge will still not be needed to clear content. Unless magically the alluvion skirmish coming out for yorcia requires only blms with new tier spells, which I'm pretty confident to say will not be required, which was really the basis of the most recent arguments was not having access to these new tier spells.

Right.... So in the future, they will just keep making us more powerful with job points, but they will keep the content the same level. That way everything will be super easy. Okay. That sounds plausible.


That being said, there has also been SIGNIFICANT amount of time with SEVERAL double CP campaigns to save up enough jps etc. You should shoot SE an email and ask them to lvl your jobs to 99 for choosing to do something like dyna with the time available to play the game. This seems to be the direction of your fallacies. Maybe while you are at it you can get a free relic or a mythic. Maybe you tell them you spend so much time farming alex you haven't been able to farm dyna, so you shouldn't have to work for a relic.

Or maybe I just tell them that I don't like the job point system.

Because all that other nonsense that you just said... wait for it... logical fallacies. Me not wanting to farm JP doesn't mean that you work harder than me or that I want everything for free or that I am lazy. It means exactly what I said. I don't like the JP system.

[PlumbGame]

fal·la·cy
ˈfaləsē/
noun
noun: fallacy; plural noun: fallacies

a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument.
"the notion that the camera never lies is a fallacy"
synonyms: misconception, misbelief, delusion, mistaken impression, error, misapprehension, misinterpretation, misconstruction, mistake; More
untruth, inconsistency, myth
"the fallacy that the sun moves round the earth"
Logic
a failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.
faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument.
"the potential for fallacy which lies behind the notion of self-esteem"




Do you even read what you right? You just compared 11 to the superbowl? You also stated you need friends to apparently exp? Is this RL? This guy for real?

[FrankReynolds]

Do you even read what you right? You just compared 11 to the superbowl?

You get to learn all sorts of new words today. Congratulations!

"hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/Submit
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."

A good way to think of a hyperbole’s usage is to imagine it going through a realm of impossibility to reach possibility. (J. Ritter) As an example we can look at an exaggeration such as, “The class felt like it was six thousand hours long.” In reality, no class is six thousand hours long, but through the context the reader can understand that the speaker is telling them that the class felt extremely long. Through that same example, the theory that a hyperbole is inserting a lie on a set of truths is very easily understandable as well. The six thousand hours exaggeration is a lie that was entered into the context, which was otherwise true.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole)



You also stated you need friends to apparently exp? Is this RL? This guy for real?


I would have to remind you this is an MMO where usually you play with other people. Hard idea right?

[PlumbGame]

Bad analogies are bad.

[Kensagaku]

At what point does a discussion about a game mechanic turn people to do little besides insult one another? It's been pretty predominant in this thread of late, and it's gone from a debate to a series of personal attacks. Chill, and remember that it's a game.

As for the JP system, to an extent I like what it is. Is it time-consuming? Sure. It's way improved from initial, though, where most of your choices were 2-400 CP/kill at Outer Ra'Kaznar and parties at 1-2 Woh Gates camps, maybe a shot at Dho. Now there are the subgates, where with a chain and a CP mantle (and there's no excuse if you don't do Incursion now, there's a crafted one) you can see up to 6-700 in a chain, and more with a CP ring, which is available via easily-farmed sparks. Four zones, and I'm fairly certain there are decent camps in them. I've only farmed in Dho and Woh subgates myself because usually one or the other is open, so I can't say 100%, but I'm pretty sure there are camps in the other two.

One improvement I think that would make the system nicer is to either make the CP Bonus Gifts a little more potent (say 10% each one, versus 5%, which really adds to the incentive to farm at least a few JP to get some early-on CP Gifts) or else make them a bit more frequent. A lot of gifts have a 5-JP gap between them, though there are some larger gaps where there is possibility for more. Likely these are actually set aside for future gifts like JAs, JTs, and spells, but we never know until they are actually filled. I think improving the rate at which players can... well, improve the rate of CP gaining would likely help those who have little time but a desire to get some JP without hindering those who choose to take more time doing JP and get a lot more for it.

[PlumbGame]

Because all that other nonsense that you just said... wait for it... logical fallacies. Me not wanting to farm JP doesn't mean that you work harder than me or that I want everything for free or that I am lazy. It means exactly what I said. I don't like the JP system.


TLDR; there are thousands of reason why people quit and yours is probably pretty low on that list.

I used to play like 8+ hours a day back when the game came out (been playing since JP release). The game was tedious and annoying, but I really didn't have much else to do when I got off work at midnight and I lived at my moms house. Now I don't even get to play a lot of days. On the other hand, I used to live at my moms house, work late and get paid crap. Now I have a hot wife, a huge house (and a couple vacation homes) and an @ $500k income. I also have a crapload more games to play now. FFXI has gotten a lot better, or I would have cancelled it a long time ago. So, no. Saying that the game was better back then and that is why people quit is not warranted.

As I'm sure you already know, 99% of the stuff that was in the game back then is still in the game now. If you / they really liked the game the way it was, you'd still be playing it that way.

It's not black and white. Just because people don't like the way something has changed doesn't necessarily mean that they liked the way it was before either.





This seems to be the argument in every thread on this forum.

"Oh, you don't like the way XXXX works? You just want everything handed to you!"

I don't really see how you can say that something is super easy and shouldn't be changed without admitting that you yourself enjoy hand outs. If you honestly don't think that earning JPs is difficult, then why do you care what happens to them at all? Do you enjoy things that aren't challenging? Are handouts only okay when they work for you?

Hmm the implication here, so which is it? You are lazy or you aren't lazy?

[PlumbGame]

At what point does a discussion about a game mechanic turn people to do little besides insult one another? It's been pretty predominant in this thread of late, and it's gone from a debate to a series of personal attacks. Chill, and remember that it's a game.

As for the JP system, to an extent I like what it is. Is it time-consuming? Sure. It's way improved from initial, though, where most of your choices were 2-400 CP/kill at Outer Ra'Kaznar and parties at 1-2 Woh Gates camps, maybe a shot at Dho. Now there are the subgates, where with a chain and a CP mantle (and there's no excuse if you don't do Incursion now, there's a crafted one) you can see up to 6-700 in a chain, and more with a CP ring, which is available via easily-farmed sparks. Four zones, and I'm fairly certain there are decent camps in them. I've only farmed in Dho and Woh subgates myself because usually one or the other is open, so I can't say 100%, but I'm pretty sure there are camps in the other two.

One improvement I think that would make the system nicer is to either make the CP Bonus Gifts a little more potent (say 10% each one, versus 5%, which really adds to the incentive to farm at least a few JP to get some early-on CP Gifts) or else make them a bit more frequent. A lot of gifts have a 5-JP gap between them, though there are some larger gaps where there is possibility for more. Likely these are actually set aside for future gifts like JAs, JTs, and spells, but we never know until they are actually filled. I think improving the rate at which players can... well, improve the rate of CP gaining would likely help those who have little time but a desire to get some JP without hindering those who choose to take more time doing JP and get a lot more for it.

Sorry, it just gets to the point when does the brick wall listen and stop spewing nonsense. You try to phrase things without literately calling them an idiot but then they just don't get it. Usually discussions result in heated sides because you get passionate people about a subject, in this case, people passionate about the JP system not just giving everything away to people who only have roughly 20 total JPs since the system was implemented because they openly admit they want handouts.

[Tidis]

Sorry, it just gets to the point when does the brick wall listen and stop spewing nonsense. You try to phrase things without literately calling them an idiot but then they just don't get it. Usually discussions result in heated sides because you get passionate people about a subject, in this case, people passionate about the JP system not just giving everything away to people who only have roughly 20 total JPs since the system was implemented because they openly admit they want handouts.

You're probably the biggest example of a brick wall since you stick to this whole nonsense argument that anyone who wants JP to be easier equates to them wanting handouts, what people have suggested is things like, the double points campaign should be the permanent amount, CP chains should last longer, base CP levels should be higher. They're all fair suggestions, it wouldn't trivialise the content or make it a handout at all, it would still take a long time to cap Job points on all jobs you want to be relevant, especially if they do increase the cap to 30 per category.

At the same time people get frustrated because there are people out there who bot their Job Points and then brag about how easy it is to get JP, I'm not saying everyone does it, that would be ridiculous but it paints a massive negative stigma to farming JP.

[PlumbGame]

You're probably the biggest example of a brick wall since you stick to this whole nonsense argument that anyone who wants JP to be easier equates to them wanting handouts, what people have suggested is things like, the double points campaign should be the permanent amount, CP chains should last longer, base CP levels should be higher. They're all fair suggestions, it wouldn't trivialise the content or make it a handout at all, it would still take a long time to cap Job points on all jobs you want to be relevant, especially if they do increase the cap to 30 per category.

At the same time people get frustrated because there are people out there who bot their Job Points and then brag about how easy it is to get JP, I'm not saying everyone does it, that would be ridiculous but it paints a massive negative stigma to farming JP.

I stopped reading after you told me I equate people to wanting handouts when the post before last I literally quoted him implying he enjoys handouts.

If you took 5 seconds to read the thread instead of jumping down someones throat you would know that my position isn't on weather JPs are easy or hard to obtain, and I could care less. Make them easier to obtain I just get them faster. I do care though, especially playing this game since NA release, when a player now and days blatantly wants this or that just for the sake of them being lazy. Which has been implied, and flat out said, by people in this thread.

[Tidis]

I stopped reading after you told me I equate people to wanting handouts when the post before last I literally quoted him implying he enjoys handouts.

Yeah just read that, he never said that, now you're just making stuff up to defend your argument.

[PlumbGame]

I'd also like to requote this


I'm beginning to wonder if he (Mrkillface aka FrankReynolds) even plays the game anymore. Looking at FFXIAH he has 2 JP and hasn't bought or sold anything from AH since September.

edit: added specifically who I was referring to.

The dude trying to validate how horrible the system is isn't even playing the game. Now granted he could be an alt, or he literally logs on and just sits in town, but even his shells have him as inactive.


Yeah just read that, he never said that, now you're just making stuff up to defend your argument.

Good one.

I'll quote this for you to hopefully help you understand what an implication is.

im·pli·ca·tion
ˌimpləˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: implication; plural noun: implications

1.
the conclusion that can be drawn from something, although it is not explicitly stated.

2.
the action or state of being involved in something.


Basically, he said it, but he didn't, which if he is as intelligent as he tries to portray, he wouldn't, to try and pull what you are pulling by stating he never said it. The last thing he said not only implied that he enjoys handouts (and this is ignoring the implication of that in most of his responses in this thread), but he tried to straw man the argument.

[FrankReynolds]

Bad analogies are bad. I'm bad at understanding analogies

Fixed that for you.


Hmm the implication here, so which is it? You are lazy or you aren't lazy?

I don't see any implication of being lazy in there. Is there some hidden text that I missed? While we're on the subject though, do you honestly believe that if I spend my time doing assaults and you spend yours farming JP that I am somehow lazy while you are not? Do you have a special keyboard that makes it harder to hit the weapon skill macro whenever it senses that you are doing JP? Where can I get one of those?


I'd also like to requote this

The dude trying to validate how horrible the system is isn't even playing the game. Now granted he could be an alt, or he literally logs on and just sits in town, but even his shells have him as inactive.

Those sites are horribly inaccurate. One of the shells that FFXIAH lists was broken like 2-3 years ago. But thanks for checking in on me. It's good to have fans. It is true that I haven't been on that character much lately though. I've been busy gearing and farming currencies on my other characters. Mrkill does just sit in town all day most days.

But hey, when you have no logical argument, just attack the person instead.


Basically, he said it, but he didn't, which if he is as intelligent as he tries to portray, he wouldn't, to try and pull what you are pulling by stating he never said it. Basically the last thing he said not only implied that he enjoys handouts (and this is ignoring the implication of that in most of his responses in this thread), but he tried to straw man the argument.

I do enjoy hand outs. I didn't ask for any though. I argued for a system to behave as advertised and / or at least be less boring and time consuming to complete. Like I suggested before, you wanting to push buttons in a different area of the game than where I like to push buttons doesn't make you any more or less lazy than I am. You'll have to come up with a new way to insult me.

You said that getting JP was easy by your standards. Then you called people who wanted getting JP to be easy by their standards lazy. Implying that it's only okay for things to be easy for you, not for other people. Calling that a straw man won't make it any less true.

[Alhanelem]

Really? People never complained about merits?Really. They didn't. Yes, people complained about specific things like "c'mon SE, un-cap the weapon skill merits" or "cmon SE, let me get everything!" But not about the system as a whole.

But did people complain about how long they took? Did they complain about how much abilities cost? In other words, the stuff people are complaining about here? No, not really. Did they complain about how important or unimportant merits were? No, not really. Complaints about merits were pinprick on the surface of what is the *$%&ing about job points.


I'm pretty sure that I've seen you posting in some of those very same threads quite a bit... I've posted opposing threads complaining about the caps on merit groups. Those arent threads complaining that merits as a whole are bad and that merits are earned too slow and are too important / too unimportant. This whole thread is primarily about job points being a terrible grind and being too important/unimportant, things that were (almost) never complained about with the merit system which is, in most ways other than the rate of earning, extremely similar.

[FrankReynolds]

Really. They didn't. Yes, people complained about specific things like "c'mon SE, un-cap the weapon skill merits" or "cmon SE, let me get everything!" But not about the system as a whole.

But did people complain about how long they took? Did they complain about how much abilities cost? In other words, the stuff people are complaining about here? No, not really. Did they complain about how important or unimportant merits were? No, not really. Complaints about merits were pinprick on the surface of what is the *$%&ing about job points.

People complained about merits for years, but for slightly different reasons? Okay... and then what? You brought them up. You said people didn't complain. They did complain though. A lot. For a long time.

[PlumbGame]

Please provide the 100s of old threads complaining about the merit system that has a majority of the populace agreeing the merit system was garbage. Thank you.

[Alhanelem]

People complained about merits for years, but for slightly different reasons? Okay... and then what? You brought them up. You said people didn't complain. They did complain though. A lot. For a long time.
No. They didn't complain a lot. They complained very little by comparison, nothing like what I'm seeing here now. Most people liked merit points outside of minor grievances. You're just bending this to mean what you want it to mean. People are complaining about job point issues where merit points worked the same and people didn't complain much. Please dig up the alleged slew of threads where people complained that (SPECIFICALLY) merits take too long and that they are (or aren't) important. I'd really like to see them.

As per the above poster, you can't because it didn't really happen.

[Protey]

Why do you think people are asking for lower requirements on the JP system? They want to be better...

Without having to do much to obtain being better.


I'll do what I want. I've been playing this game since the JP release and I'll keep trying to make it better for me and other people like me until they shut it down whether you like it or not. Deal with it.

yes, you and others like you are doing so well at making the game better that when SE did what you advocate for it caused massive amounts of people to leave the game. Good job.


No, I just possess adequate mental faculties to recognize a trend that hasn't changed in over ten years of FFXI.

more falsehoods from you. PUG don't ask what JPs or merits one has.


Yes. People who don't have experience because they don't get invites have a much harder time actually leading groups. Leading a bunch of failed runs adn / or constantly asking someone else to lead your party quickly leads to people not joining your groups.

wow, really. because the concept of gathering people together to figure something out just doesn't cross your mind? you know, like when content first comes out? and heaven forbid people actually look at wikis and forums to figure things out. I think you don't consider obvious possibilities, or possibly even omit them on purpose, and are just here to argue for the sake of arguing.


You don't have to get them either. You can waste time killing bunnies all day without the JP system. Your argument is void.

your statement does not disprove what i said. so no, my argument is not void. you just state irrelevant things.


I'm very capable. I'm just not a dick to people who aren't.

as is typical with someone who can't give legitimate arguments, you resort to immature name calling.

[PlumbGame]

There definitely is something wrong with this FrankReynolds guy because it's rare I agree with Alhanelem on about anything. Good job universe!

[FrankReynolds]

Without having to do much to obtain being better.

Which in this case is what SE said would happen...




yes, you and others like you are doing so well at making the game better that when SE did what you advocate for it caused massive amounts of people to leave the game. Good job.

Cool story bro. Too bad it's not true.




more falsehoods from you. PUG don't ask what JPs or merits one has.

No, they just never invite you again when you suck because you don't have them.


wow, really. because the concept of gathering people together to figure something out just doesn't cross your mind? you know, like when content first comes out? and heaven forbid people actually look at wikis and forums to figure things out. I think you don't consider obvious possibilities, or possibly even omit them on purpose, and are just here to argue for the sake of arguing.

lol yeah, the wiki will make you a born leader.


your statement does not disprove what i said. so no, my argument is not void. you just state irrelevant things.

Likewise.


as is typical with someone who can't give legitimate arguments, you resort to immature name calling.

If the shoe fits I guess...

[Protey]

Which in this case is what SE said would happen...

more fallacies from you. SE said they'd like to make it so that by going out and doing different types of content you will naturally earn a good amount of capacity points. They didn't say without having to do much to obtain them.


Cool story bro. Too bad it's not true.

it is very true. a LOT of people left because the game got to easy... just what you are advocating even more for.


No, they just never invite you again when you suck because you don't have them.

No, the sucking is from not knowing how to play your job properly because you are an instant gratification person and just aby burned your job. Suck less, learn2play.


lol yeah, the wiki will make you a born leader.

The wiki and forums will tell you how to complete content. If you can't follow what it says, you have a personal issue. It's not hard to get people who also want to complete content and say "hey, since we all don't know what we are doing, let's read up on how to do it and do some trial and error until we get it right."


Likewise.

Your response makes no sense as I post legitimate responses to what you say. You make up things that are irrelevant to the conversation and post them.


If the shoe fits I guess...

thank you for admitting that you are incapable of giving a legitimate argument.

[detlef]

It's weird but I agree with the people with whom I usually disagree vehemently. With trusts, CP are doable on absolutely any job. It really is just a matter of how badly you want it. Yeah they're grindy, and you have to be on the job you want CP for, but the changes represent permanent improvements to your character. You don't have to pick and choose which categories to spend JP on, you can spend it on all of them. It's a long term goal for people who like grindy long term goals.

Now, there are concerns. As people have said, SE did make it sound like they would be bonuses and not be all that powerful to the point where they'd make a difference. I do think they misled us there because it's pretty clear with the SU1 designation and JA/spells unlocked by JP that they will make a difference.

But the other complaint with JP was that they weren't worth doing because the bonuses were so minor. So while I agree that it may or may not have been SE's plan all along (and probably in conflict with their original vision and/or official statement on the matter), it's probably better for the game if JP are actually worthwhile and improve your character. Why is that important? Well, I think that since ilvls were introduced, only our gear was getting stronger while our characters were the same. I would like to see a greater emphasis on our characters getting stronger, not just our gear.

CP as it is now is already pretty accessible to anybody, you just have to really want it. I do think that it's a little more difficult than it has to be though. There aren't enough good CP camps for 6-man PTs. There are too many afk botters. If the 10th upgrade costs 10 JP, that doesn't bode well for when they raise the cap for each category. Plus it takes a pretty Herculean effort to cap multiple jobs. I think SE will gradually make CP easier though.

It's not as bad when you view the big picture. When you XP, you get merits, CP, accolades, and sparks. You can spend the accolades on Wanted fights which earn you gear, merits, CP, and sparks. You spend the merits on hard mode BCs for gear and AF/relic upgrades. And you can spend the sparks on NPCables or whatever. It all works together.

[Alhanelem]

Well, you know when an argument has gone down the crapper as soon as posts are being picked apart line by line or sentence by sentence. (I've been guilty of this enough times to know). If one post contains like 10 quotations, best not to bother with it. :p

[Urteil]

This is how we will reach the highest levels of advancement.
It reminds me of Armor Grades from Lineage 2.


JP aren't going anywhere, quit now if you don't like them.

[Tidis]

This is how we will reach the highest levels of advancement.
It reminds me of Armor Grades from Lineage 2.


JP aren't going anywhere, quit now if you don't like them.
Something I'm sure SE would love to happen to their cash cow.

[PlumbGame]

Something I'm sure SE would love to happen to their cash cow.

Well apparently the biggest complainer of the last 10ish + pages isn't even playing in the first place, so don't know if it matters either way.

[FrankReynolds]

Well apparently the biggest complainer of the last 10ish + pages isn't even playing in the first place, so don't know if it matters either way.

Are you talking about yourself?

[Camiie]

I just can't wrap my head around why some people want to make what's essentially leveling into the content that separates the special snowflakes from the unwashed masses. There is room for content for the "dedicated," but this is not the place for it. Would the game really have been better if only a fraction of the population could reasonably make it to level 99 and everyone else was stuck at 98 or at some arbitrary point in between? Leveling, meriting, and Job Points should be content for everyone to enjoy at a reasonable pace. Find some other way for people who need validation from their gaming experience to get their psychological needs met. Don't make me or anyone else shoulder that load.