The importance of job points

[Byrth]

Allow me to summarize it for you in the immortal words of one Kevin Chang:
http://i.imgur.com/Ig3TNfs.jpg

[Stompa]

Maybe I need to go to 'Adventurers Anonymous' meetings or something, because I actually found it quite fun and not especially difficult to get two jobs to 80+ jobpoints. Not super-easy, and really quite grindy, but not like omg I'm a special snowflake now coz I battered some mobs and made some numbers go up, for a month or so.

Maybe I can go to Adventurers Anonymous meetings and have a big Group Hug with other Adventurers who also quite enjoy just killing random mobs for hours and not really thinking its a big deal.

[FrankReynolds]

At this point I would be satisfied if everyone just agreed to never use the words "Fallacy" or "Fallacies" again without being absolutely certain that they know what the word means and that they are using it in the proper context.

[Protey]

I just can't wrap my head around why some people want to make what's essentially leveling into the content that separates the special snowflakes from the unwashed masses. There is room for content for the "dedicated," but this is not the place for it. Would the game really have been better if only a fraction of the population could reasonably make it to level 99 and everyone else was stuck at 98 or at some arbitrary point in between? Leveling, meriting, and Job Points should be content for everyone to enjoy at a reasonable pace. Find some other way for people who need validation from their gaming experience to get their psychological needs met. Don't make me or anyone else shoulder that load.

oh, what does this remind me of from 75 cap era.... Maat fight! It's a gated requirement, if you can't complete the gate for some reason, then don't do whatever non-existent content until you get yourself better. It will likely be a very, very long time before JP/Gifts are necessary to complete content as people have completed level 143 content at level 119 without Gifts. And as such people should have progressed by that time to having JPs and Gifts in whatever jobs they play the most. You might argue "what about new people?" people had to level to 75 at 75 cap before they could do end-game, no difference. Do the gated requirement or don't expect to be able to do all content. This isn't a pay to play game. Earn your accomplishments and access to end game.

[FrankReynolds]

oh, what does this remind me of from 75 cap era.... Maat fight! It's a gated requirement, if you can't complete the gate for some reason, then don't do whatever non-existent content until you get yourself better. It will likely be a very, very long time before JP/Gifts are necessary to complete content as people have completed level 143 content at level 119 without Gifts. And as such people should have progressed by that time to having JPs and Gifts in whatever jobs they play the most. You might argue "what about new people?" people had to level to 75 at 75 cap before they could do end-game, no difference. Do the gated requirement or don't expect to be able to do all content. This isn't a pay to play game. Earn your accomplishments and access to end game.

The content in question is a time sink, not a challenge of skill. You can have all the job points and still suck. Stop pretending that you are good at the game because you earned some points.

[Protey]

The content in question is a time sink, not a challenge of skill. You can have all the job points and still suck. Stop pretending that you are good at the game because you earned some points.

another fallacy from you. nowhere did i say that one is good at the game because you earned some points. i said it was gated content. learn2read.

[FrankReynolds]

another fallacy from you. nowhere did i say that one is good at the game because you earned some points. i said it was gated content. learn2read.


...then don't do whatever non-existent content until you get yourself better

You don't even understand the implications of the things that you say. How can you possibly expect me to learn2read them?

[Camiie]

oh, what does this remind me of from 75 cap era.... Maat fight! It's a gated requirement, if you can't complete the gate for some reason, then don't do whatever non-existent content until you get yourself better.

Limit Breaks were always a stupid idea. Leveling IS the gate to content. Gating the gate is just absurd.


It will likely be a very, very long time before JP/Gifts are necessary to complete content as people have completed level 143 content at level 119 without Gifts. And as such people should have progressed by that time to having JPs and Gifts in whatever jobs they play the most.

On what do you base this assumption? You have no idea what SE's plans are, and even if you did they seem to change from day to day.


You might argue "what about new people?" people had to level to 75 at 75 cap before they could do end-game, no difference. Do the gated requirement or don't expect to be able to do all content. This isn't a pay to play game. Earn your accomplishments and access to end game.

You're making this into an either/or scenario. You seem to think that if the rate of CP is pushed upwards in any way shape or form that it's akin to having all categories maxed out for free. Have you forgotten how the rate of XP has been increased over the years while the XP needed per level has been lowered? Are you going to say that someone who leveled to 75 and merited during ToAU didn't "earn it" while someone who did so during Zilart/COP did? Are you going to say that people who used FOV/GOV or Campaign to XP didn't "earn it?" Did YOU use any of these methods? Did YOU benefit from XP rate increases, XP requirement reductions, new camps, etc.? I guarantee you did, so I guess that means you haven't "earned it" any more than anyone else has.

[PlumbGame]

I just can't wrap my head around why some people want to make what's essentially leveling into the content that separates the special snowflakes from the unwashed masses. There is room for content for the "dedicated," but this is not the place for it. Would the game really have been better if only a fraction of the population could reasonably make it to level 99 and everyone else was stuck at 98 or at some arbitrary point in between? Leveling, meriting, and Job Points should be content for everyone to enjoy at a reasonable pace. Find some other way for people who need validation from their gaming experience to get their psychological needs met. Don't make me or anyone else shoulder that load.

I'm confused. Everyone that puts the time into gaining JPs do obtain them at a reasonable pace. I think this topic needs to be clarified more, because people are acting as if JPs are hard to obtain or really time consuming. I'll say what I said again in an earlier thread which seemed to be looked over so people could straw man the argument some more. I was able to get roughly 15 jps an hour during a double CP campaign (which these happen quite frequently). This was with 2 plds, no cor, a smn, me on thf, and a brd. That takes roughly 7 1/2 hours to cap out 2 categories of JPs. Give you all the current gifts. 7 1/2 hours....................... You are seriously trying to say that you can't make a pt over the last how long has jps been in now? And get some freaking JPs? This is why people are against the idea of making JPs easier. They are already being handed out. Just stop sitting in town thinking you should get them, or prioritizing everything over obtaining any. So who are the special snowflakes again?

Protey just ignore FrankReynolds, he doesn't even play. He also has been given the actual definition of things like fallacy, not his made up ones, and still chooses to claim how ignorant we are for not wanting JPs to be easier. Will probably save some time and discussion for people who really can provide legit reasons that JPs should be easier without bouncing back and forth with his idiocy.

Let me do some more math. Most double CPs seem seem last roughly 2weeks. Even if you were to only obtain 5 JPs an hour which you can do even solo. It would take 22hours to cap out 2 entire categories, give you all current gifts, and you would only have to spend roughly 1.5 hours everyday during the double CP to get that far. Now given that JPs weren't just added yesterday, and the plethora of double CP campaigns, again, you guys are saying you couldn't of had at least gotten the JPs you wanted by now, it's too hard? It's unfair?

[Camiie]

People need to quit acting like double CP campaigns and 50% capes from Incursion are the norm, because they are not. Yes when you've tripled (campaign+cape+ring) the rate of CP then yeah it does indeed seem fine. When the rate is normal it does not. That's my point. Normal is glacial. The normal rate needs to rise. Does that make it clear?

[FrankReynolds]

Protey just ignore FrankReynolds, he doesn't even play. He also has been given the actual definition of things like fallacy, not his made up ones, and still chooses to claim how ignorant we are for not wanting JPs to be easier. Will probably save some time and discussion for people who really can provide legit reasons that JPs should be easier without bouncing back and forth with his idiocy.

Okay, according to your math, it will take me 130 hours straight of JP farming with a group during a double CP campaign to cap my jobs on just my main character or 374 hours if I do it solo. And that's assuming that your math is actually correct. That's probably longer than it takes to level all those jobs. God forbid I miss the campaign. There's probably not a single other upgrade that I could do to my character that would take longer than that.

And you copied and pasted a the definition of fallacy but you still aren't using it in the proper context, so no points for you.

[Stompa]

People need to quit acting like double CP campaigns and 50% capes from Incursion are the norm, because they are not. Yes when you've tripled (campaign+cape+ring) the rate of CP then yeah it does indeed seem fine. When the rate is normal it does not. That's my point. Normal is glacial. The normal rate needs to rise. Does that make it clear?

I play two chars and neither of them obtained the lucky CAP backpiece from incursion coffers, I popped around 250 coffers total, and got a lot of dead mob pieces and also for some reason, endless SCH capes from the boss coffers (SE wants me to play SCH lol).

My Mithra mule got 87 Jobpoints on her WAR, with no cape at all. Nebula got 81 Jobpoints on Pup with no cape at all. Both characters did around 70% of battles during the double CAP events, and 30% during normal base CAP times and it didn't make my head explode like in Scanners, or anything like that.

Both my chars used the sparks ring, again around 70% of the time, and again when I was using no ring and just getting plain old CAP, I didn't start having the rotating-head effect like in The Exorcist.

You can now buy a cape on the AH for 180k~ that gives CAP+25%. It is probably quite hard to use the AH armor selection feature, and buy the cape, and then equip it too. Will the suffering never end? Also it is hard to obtain the sparks CAP rings, how are you supposed to get 5k sparks? What am I, Wonder Woman?

And you get multiple 5% CAP bonuses as you climb higher up the tiers of CAP gifts on your job. But to get those, you have to <gasp!> go out and kill mobs, which is obviously very difficult and upsetting.

I also have a 1% CAP bonus from my mog garden white-rabbit, Parsnips. Although I can see how hard and challenging it is to log in and trade moko grass to a fluffy rabbit once a day. So maybe that is yet another cruel and exclusive barrier of eliteness that locks most players out.

[Camiie]

I never complained about having to kill things for CP. So anything you said relating to that you can scratch off the list.

Again you relied mainly on double cap events to get the bulk of your CP. Thus again the numbers are skewed. There's no guarantee they'll continue into perpetuity and players shouldn't have to rely on a random special event to make meaningful progress in the game. You might as well say that 30,000 Alex is easy to get since it's a prize in Mog Bonanza.

We're talking about the new form of XP/Merits. If ANYTHING should be content for the masses it's that. If ANYTHING should be piss easy and flow like water at Niagra Falls, it's that. Pick a different type of content to prove your dedication through, as if anyone but you cares how much more love you have for a job than someone else does.

[PlumbGame]

People need to quit acting like double CP campaigns and 50% capes from Incursion are the norm, because they are not. Yes when you've tripled (campaign+cape+ring) the rate of CP then yeah it does indeed seem fine. When the rate is normal it does not. That's my point. Normal is glacial. The normal rate needs to rise. Does that make it clear?

Double CP campaigns aren't the norm? I'm pretty sure everyone has access to double CP campaigns..... lol. Also take note that you basically openly admit to not taking advantage of all opportunities to gain CP then complain you have none.

There is almost a double CP campaign every month for roughly 2 weeks. It might as well be the norm at the rate we get them, I guess I do feel that, since the majority of my JPs have been obtained during those events.

[Camiie]

Double CP campaigns aren't the norm? I'm pretty sure everyone has access to double CP campaigns..... lol. Also take note that you basically openly admit to not taking advantage of all opportunities to gain CP then complain you have none.

Um... you're just flat out lying now. I never said anything of the sort. Not even anything you could misconstrue. I have a 40% CP cape which I basically full time. I have a CP ring. I go for CP whenever I have free time, whether there is a campaign or not, because I also have to farm merits for LS events. I already told you how many JPs I have on my jobs.


There is almost a double CP campaign every month for roughly 2 weeks. It might as well be the norm at the rate we get them, I guess I do feel that, since the majority of my JPs have been obtained during those events.

Yes that rate of CP should be the norm. Thank you.

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs4/200H/i/2004/257/3/3/Roger_Smith_or____Spotight__by_RogersGirl.jpg

[Stompa]

I never complained about having to kill things for CP. So anything you said relating to that you can scratch off the list.

Again you relied mainly on double cap events to get the bulk of your CP. Thus again the numbers are skewed. There's no guarantee they'll continue into perpetuity and players shouldn't have to rely on a random special event to make meaningful progress in the game. You might as well say that 30,000 Alex is easy to get since it's a prize in Mog Bonanza.

We're talking about the new form of XP/Merits. If ANYTHING should be content for the masses it's that. If ANYTHING should be piss easy and flow like water at Niagra Falls, it's that. Pick a different type of content to prove your dedication through, as if anyone but you cares how much more love you have for a job than someone else does.

I didn't farm CAP to "prove" anything, or to be a "special snowflake" etc. I farmed CAP to improve my two favourite jobs, to make those jobs stronger and to customise them to my personal play style. I put a lot of my jobpoints into brackets that are probably less useful in big alliance events, and more useful on solo, this is because I like soloing, so I tailored my jobpoints to my solo play style.

Also in my last post I mentioned that when I was farming CAP with no ring and with no double-CAP event, it really wasn't a problem and didn't make me go into some kind of emotional tailspin or anything. With no ring and no cape and no x2 event, farming CAP was not crazy hardship or anything, it was OK.

The reason I did a lot of my CAP runs during x2 CAP events is simply because I wanted to go out and kill mobs and there happened to be an event on at that time. I would be just as happy to have farmed my CAP on base flat no-bonuses mode. So the numbers are not "skewed" as you say, I would have gone out and killed mobs and got CAP anyway without any bonuses, and gone home afterwards in just the same happy mood. I like killing monsters lol, if I have to kill extra monsters that works fine too.

Obviously we have different opinions, and that is why Forums exist, so that everyone can say what they think. My own opinion is that the flat base rate of CAP is not too low at all, and that there are now so many CAP bonus options easily available, that there is really not any problem with obtaining CAP. :)

[PlumbGame]

Um... you're just flat out lying now. I never said anything of the sort. Not even anything you could misconstrue. I have a 40% CP cape which I basically full time. I have a CP ring. I go for CP whenever I have free time, whether there is a campaign or not, because I also have to farm merits for LS events. I already told you how many JPs I have on my jobs.



Yes that rate of CP should be the norm. Thank you.

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs4/200H/i/2004/257/3/3/Roger_Smith_or____Spotight__by_RogersGirl.jpg

May be "flat out lying" but the implication definitely stands that you talk like you don't have exp capes, or take advantage of CP campaigns or use rings from previous comments. There is no misconstruing, but if you take a stances where you imply certain things, expect judgements directed towards those implications.

[FrankReynolds]

May be "flat out lying" but the implication definitely stands that you talk like you don't have exp capes, or take advantage of CP campaigns or use rings from previous comments. There is no misconstruing, but if you take a stances where you imply certain things, expect judgements directed towards those implications.

What was implicated was that the system is a pain even for good players with benefits like capes.

[Protey]

Protey just ignore FrankReynolds, he doesn't even play. He also has been given the actual definition of things like fallacy, not his made up ones, and still chooses to claim how ignorant we are for not wanting JPs to be easier. Will probably save some time and discussion for people who really can provide legit reasons that JPs should be easier without bouncing back and forth with his idiocy.

Yea pretty much. On multiple occasions he has told blatant falsehoods, attacked a person rather than what they say, flaws in his logic, and spouted irrelevant nonsense. I'm pretty sure he is just trolling. How do you stop a troll? you ignore him. So I call on the other people here to do the same.

[Protey]

Limit Breaks were always a stupid idea. Leveling IS the gate to content. Gating the gate is just absurd.

do you have some kind of legitimate argument or just your opinion?


On what do you base this assumption? You have no idea what SE's plans are, and even if you did they seem to change from day to day.

well the biggest jump in the history of the game was when SoA came out. Even if they did that same kind of jump again, it would still be less than what has been beaten, and we would have Gifts this time, more JPs, and whatever additions they may come up with.


You're making this into an either/or scenario. You seem to think that if the rate of CP is pushed upwards in any way shape or form that it's akin to having all categories maxed out for free. Have you forgotten how the rate of XP has been increased over the years while the XP needed per level has been lowered? Are you going to say that someone who leveled to 75 and merited during ToAU didn't "earn it" while someone who did so during Zilart/COP did? Are you going to say that people who used FOV/GOV or Campaign to XP didn't "earn it?" Did YOU use any of these methods? Did YOU benefit from XP rate increases, XP requirement reductions, new camps, etc.? I guarantee you did, so I guess that means you haven't "earned it" any more than anyone else has.

It is an either/or scenario. Do the gate, or don't do the content. Same as with being able to wear gear... do the gate (level up) or don't be able to wear the gear. Why should anyone's progression be so easy? We are at extremely high level and it should be extremely time consuming to go up even a little bit. It shouldn't be getting CP easier, it should be getting CP harder. I've spent a total of about 6 hours intentionally farming CP. All the rest I got from doing day-to-day activities. I have 183 JP. They are too easy to get.

[FrankReynolds]

Yea pretty much. On multiple occasions he has told blatant falsehoods, attacked a person rather than what they say, flaws in his logic, and spouted irrelevant nonsense. I'm pretty sure he is just trolling. How do you stop a troll? you ignore him. So I call on the other people here to do the same.

It's pretty amusing that you have "attacked a person rather than what they say' by telling a person who just admitted to "flat out lying" in their last post not to listen to me because of my "Blatant falsehoods".

I would love for you to ignore me. Nothing could better validate my point of view than having no one to refute it.

[Camiie]

do you have some kind of legitimate argument or just your opinion?

I dunno. I called something stupid. Of course it's an opinion, and it's just as legitimate as yours.


well the biggest jump in the history of the game was when SoA came out. Even if they did that same kind of jump again, it would still be less than what has been beaten, and we would have Gifts this time, more JPs, and whatever additions they may come up with.

So even if it's exactly the same it's completely different? What?


It is an either/or scenario. Do the gate, or don't do the content. Same as with being able to wear gear... do the gate (level up) or don't be able to wear the gear.

It can't be either/or because no one has proposed removing the gate. I've only proposed making it more realistic to scale for the casual player.


Why should anyone's progression be so easy? We are at extremely high level and it should be extremely time consuming to go up even a little bit. It shouldn't be getting CP easier, it should be getting CP harder. I've spent a total of about 6 hours intentionally farming CP. All the rest I got from doing day-to-day activities. I have 183 JP. They are too easy to get.

Your numbers sound utterly impossible, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I'm way too nice. Ok so, CP is too easy to get. Fine. Let's set an absolute limit of 1 CP per mob and make each JP worth 60,000. All rings, capes, campaigns, and COR roll bonuses are no more. ROE no longer gives CP. New content that can only realistically be defeated by 18 players with capped JPs and gifts will be released next month. Enjoy.

[Protey]

I dunno. I called something stupid. Of course it's an opinion, and it's just as legitimate as yours.

alright, then i'll ignore it as you aren't going to try and justify it.


So even if it's exactly the same it's completely different? What?

i'll explain further: before SoA monsters were what, level 105 at most? Then we get to SoA where delve is at 119 (initially anyway). So about a 14 level jump. Delve is now what, level 122? I forget, but somewhere around there. So let's say we jump another 14 levels, that's 136. People beat level 136 incursion without much trouble and without the need for JPs and Gifts. But even if they were to realease content like that, we will have JPs, Gifts, and w/e extra improved gear that they release.


It can't be either/or because no one has proposed removing the gate. I've only proposed making it more realistic to scale for the casual player.

why does anyone have to propose removing the gate? why should it be more realistic for the casual player but remove something from the not casual players?


Your numbers sound utterly impossible, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I'm way too nice. Ok so, CP is too easy to get. Fine. Let's set an absolute limit of 1 CP per mob and make each JP worth 60,000. All rings, capes, campaigns, and COR roll bonuses are no more. ROE no longer gives CP. New content that can only realistically be defeated by 18 players with capped JPs and gifts will be released next month. Enjoy.

wow, exaggerate much? but if that were to happen would be one hell of a goal. though i don't know how any such content could possibly exist since some JPs and Gifts have no bearing whatsoever on defeating things.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

Hate to be the ring leader that gets the thread going in the right direction again but I've been watching this thread arguing and discussing about the arguments more and more or even more then really discussing what this thread is really about in helping job points thread adding ideas that further benefit new ideas to job point categories in which aren't included in the game for the creators to implement into the game for the batter even if they don't hit the nail right on the head in trying to do so from our suggestions. It's just one of the directions the thread should be doing more instead of arguing at one another which doesn't help job points in the end of real life reality, thanks! ;)

Honestly, the way I've typed this out has begun to sound a lot alike of arguing folks here to my demise.....:cool:

[PlumbGame]

Facts on this topic right now.

JPs are easy to obtain.
Some players want to be able to AFK in town and get them.
Some players not playing the game currently are hoping for change in their endeavors of still not playing the game.
You guys complained to much when you should of been watching Superbowl.

FrankReynolds still trying to validate his stance by telling everyone else they are liars or saying he/she said this and blah blah blah. Needs less straw manning and personal attacks and more valid reasons to bring about change to JPs except being lazy.

[FrankReynolds]

Facts Opinions on this topic right now

JPs are easy to obtain.

Obviously they aren't or this discussion wouldn't be here.


Some players want to be able to AFK in town and get them.

No one asked for anything even remotely near that, but by all means keep pretending that they did if it makes you feel better. I'll gladly keep pointing out that it's a lie every time you say it.


Some players not playing the game currently are hoping for change in their endeavors of still not playing the game.

I am playing the game. You just aren't as good at cyber stalking as you think you are. While you're stalking people on the webz though, you should take a look at the person who started this thread before posting any further nonsense about lazy people who don't play the game wanting free easy mode character upgrades.


You guys complained to too much when you should of been watching Superbowl.

Laptops, cell phones, tablets etc. FTW.


FrankReynolds still trying to validate his stance by telling everyone else they are liars or saying he/she said this and blah blah blah. Needs less straw manning and personal attacks and more valid reasons to bring about change to JPs except being lazy.

Says they guy (you) making personal attacks against me, straw man arguments (Implying that anyone who doesn't like the current system is lazy) lying and admitting to it...

[detlef]

I don't really think there is any harm in making CP easier. I've put in a lot of work capping JP on two of my jobs but it doesn't mean I'm done. They're going to add more JP categories and they have said that the eventual cap will be 30 upgrades per category. I don't particularly want to keep accruing CP at the existing rate when the caps are raised.

If/when they decide to raise the JP caps higher than 10, I would hope that CP rates are increased somehow. Either new camps with higher level enemies or simply more CP/kill. I don't want to be stuck earning JP for only a handful of jobs because that's all I have time for.

[PlumbGame]

Obviously they aren't or this discussion wouldn't be here.



No one asked for anything even remotely near that, but by all means keep pretending that they did if it makes you feel better. I'll gladly keep pointing out that it's a lie every time you say it.



I am playing the game. You just aren't as good at cyber stalking as you think you are. While you're stalking people on the webz though, you should take a look at the person who started this thread before posting any further nonsense about lazy people who don't play the game wanting free easy mode character upgrades.



Laptops, cell phones, tablets etc. FTW.



Says they guy (you) making personal attacks against me, straw man arguments (Implying that anyone who doesn't like the current system is lazy) lying and admitting to it...

Can't argue with the facts, don't even understand the point of your post.

[Olor]

I'm confused. Everyone that puts the time into gaining JPs do obtain them at a reasonable pace. I think this topic needs to be clarified more, because people are acting as if JPs are hard to obtain or really time consuming.

No, sorry, I don't think spending my whole evening's gaming time to gain one or two points solo is "a reasonable pace." I recall someone doing the math awhile ago and it worked out to OUTRAGEOUS amounts of time to cap CPs, especially if a person likes to play more than one job or is on a job that doesn't get invited to CP parties/other content that drops them.

I think that this is the crux of the argument. Some folks think that the amount of time is reasonable. Other folks don't. This is a valid thing to disagree about, especially given the fact that people have different amounts of playtime, and given how the developers have gone from saying "oh no these are no biggie, don't grind for them" to "you'll need these to equip gear and get spells for your job!"

It's too bad that we can't just have a rational discussion about content like this without folks suggesting that those of us who would like to spend more time having fun and less time mindlessly grinding are asking for hand-outs.

[Raydeus]

Disregarding all the bs from past pages, could we get Camate or Grek to talk about specifics of how progression will be handled in the future with Job Points?

Because while I have little interest in grinding them and just acquire them at my own pace (I don't think I've got more than 20 across the jobs I play) if the devs add spells and abilities to them and I suddenly find myself forced to do the job point grind to do content then I'm just not going to do it. It's simply too boring and unrewarding in today's XI for me to bother grinding points, and the ilvl XIV-nonsense is more than enough barely rewarding grind for me thank you very much.

[PlumbGame]

No, sorry, I don't think spending my whole evening's gaming time to gain one or two points solo is "a reasonable pace." I recall someone doing the math awhile ago and it worked out to OUTRAGEOUS amounts of time to cap CPs, especially if a person likes to play more than one job or is on a job that doesn't get invited to CP parties/other content that drops them.

I think that this is the crux of the argument. Some folks think that the amount of time is reasonable. Other folks don't. This is a valid thing to disagree about, especially given the fact that people have different amounts of playtime, and given how the developers have gone from saying "oh no these are no biggie, don't grind for them" to "you'll need these to equip gear and get spells for your job!"

It's too bad that we can't just have a rational discussion about content like this without folks suggesting that those of us who would like to spend more time having fun and less time mindlessly grinding are asking for hand-outs.

I have given the realistic math twice now in the past few pages. It is not unrealistic. Again, during CP campaigns, even getting 5jps an hour, which is super realistic and solo-able (this is ignoring most parties, at least the ones I've seen hitting 15+ an hour), you would have to only spend 22 hours to cap out completely 2 categories, and give you all current gifts + 15 more extra JPs. If you think this is unreasonable, even given the time since JPs have been out, you are seriously mistaken. Even WoW, touted for being the most casual game on the planet has significantly more time consuming things than this. I know people who never CP partied and are almost never online and play less than some of the time frames you guys have given and have more JPs.

It's blatantly obvious you haven't been reading the thread, so before you construe thoughts that people are just suggesting people are lazy, go back, read a little bit, and you will see how many people imply to being lazy and wanting handouts.

[Camiie]

Facts on this topic right now.

JPs are easy to obtain.

Subjective. Not a fact.


Some players want to be able to AFK in town and get them.

Nothing of the sort has been requested anywhere in game or on the internet ever.


Some players not playing the game currently are hoping for change in their endeavors of still not playing the game.

Irrelevant.


You guys complained to much when you should of been watching Superbowl.

Grammatically incorrect.


FrankReynolds still trying to validate his stance by telling everyone else they are liars or saying he/she said this and blah blah blah. Needs less straw manning and personal attacks and more valid reasons to bring about change to JPs except being lazy.

Hypocrisy.


Cammiie is part of that incredibly vocal minority campaigning continually and tirelessly for easy this, easy that, accessible this, accessible that. Absolutely nothing will come of trying to discuss a topic with him/her. He/she's always right.

Other than you purposefully misspelling my name, I really have no problem with how you just characterized me.

[PlumbGame]

Subjective. Not a fact.



Nothing of the sort has been requested anywhere in game or on the internet ever.



Irrelevant.



Grammatically incorrect.



Hypocrisy.



Other than you purposefully misspelling my name, I really have no problem with how you just characterized me.

I'm starting to think you are FrankReynolds.

[Camiie]

I'm starting to think you are FrankReynolds.

Well at least you're starting to think.

[PlumbGame]

Well at least you're starting to think.

Because I don't agree with you wanting hand-outs? This is part of the issue in this thread. You guys are mad that people like me keep pointing out the simplicity of the JP system. GG on your part though I guess? You seriously think people were going to just all come into this thread agreeing that the JP system is unfair or hard or time-consuming? You sure act like it.

[Crevox]

No, sorry, I don't think spending my whole evening's gaming time to gain one or two points solo is "a reasonable pace."

But why solo? Why not group? Then you can get much more, per hour, instead of two for an entire night. It's like trying to solo at level 20 or something way back in the day, it's monumentally slower than grouping.

Either way, I'm neutral on this. I do wish people would stop the childish arguing, insults, and namecalling though and have an intelligent discussion. People are allowed to have different opinions.

[Camiie]

But why solo? Why not group? Then you can get much more, per hour, instead of two for an entire night. It's like trying to solo at level 20 or something way back in the day, it's monumentally slower than grouping.

With the way server pops are these days, I can see why many feel like they have to solo their JPs more often than not.

[Olor]

With the way server pops are these days, I can see why many feel like they have to solo their JPs more often than not.

I play BST, I solo my points because the few JP party shouts I see are asking for BRD or WHM or a DD that actually does damage.

Why don't you form your own parties?

Because I have no idea where the good camps are and I'd rather not spend my limited game time shouting in town for people that are reasonable enough to party with a BST regardless of whether said BST is making the party or you know, even knows where to go.

PS: Also being a BST means I don't have an optimal CP gain cape (actually most people probably don't) so... yeah LOL at 5JP an hour EVER solo.

***

All of this is mostly irrelevant though because regardless of the speed, I find farming JP to be eye-numbingly boring. It makes my ears bleed. I'd rather watch someone breed pokemon. That's how boring it is. If it was fun or offered some other reward other than feeling like I am wasting my life, the speed might be fine.

What I'd *like* to see more than anything is increased JP gain from doing content. Heck, even content that has a main reward of getting JP would be pretty okay - especially if it could also be used to make gil. As long as that content is less soul destroyingly boring than "grind mobs."

Of course in order for that to help we'd need to see jobs a bit more balanced, but... excuse me if I don't have a lot of hope of BST being useful or desireable ever for any content.

[Crevox]

Because I have no idea where the good camps are

You can ask in game or on any of the forums. There are multiple capable camps people go to, such as Woh Gates Map #2 from Marjami obelisk in the southwest room, killing bats.

You can scout it out beforehand too, and even solo them to try them out.


for people that are reasonable enough to party with a BST

No one has questioned my job as a SMN, not once, making my own party. I doubt others would for BST either, people are more interested in joining the party.


Also being a BST means I don't have an optimal CP gain cape

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/27603/aptitude-mantle

Not too big of a difference from an Incursion cape if you can't get an Incursion party, and you can spend some more for the +1 version if you want some more CP. The non-HQ cape is pretty cheap, and most people who do Incursion don't even have a cape >40% anyways, it's still kinda uncommon/rare. The 25% cape works just fine.


excuse me if I don't have a lot of hope of BST being useful or desireable ever for any content.

BST works perfectly fine for CP parties and a lot of other things. People just don't bring it because it's not omgsuperthebest. If you're a good BST, make your own parties and show it.


With the way server pops are these days, I can see why many feel like they have to solo their JPs more often than not.


Both Olor and I are on Asura, so I know there are more than enough people wanting to join a CP party. I get an absolute overflow of people trying to join when I shout, and it forms into a line.

[Stompa]

No, sorry, I don't think spending my whole evening's gaming time to gain one or two points solo is "a reasonable pace." I recall someone doing the math awhile ago and it worked out to OUTRAGEOUS amounts of time to cap CPs, especially if a person likes to play more than one job or is on a job that doesn't get invited to CP parties/other content that drops them.

I think that this is the crux of the argument. Some folks think that the amount of time is reasonable. Other folks don't. This is a valid thing to disagree about, especially given the fact that people have different amounts of playtime, and given how the developers have gone from saying "oh no these are no biggie, don't grind for them" to "you'll need these to equip gear and get spells for your job!"

It's too bad that we can't just have a rational discussion about content like this without folks suggesting that those of us who would like to spend more time having fun and less time mindlessly grinding are asking for hand-outs.

I think we used to spend our "whole evening's gaming time" just levelling jobs slowly to 75, and obtaining merits slowly. That is the core game FFXI, it is a long-term game, with "deferred gratification" and a slow long-term progression system.

They did eventually buckle to pressure and allow people to get xp and merits super-quickly, around 2010, but for the first six years or so the core FFXI game was about slow progress, ie. spending your evening game time notching up a few more points on your character's development.

So what I'm saying is that really this has always been the nature of FFXI, it is about spending your whole evening and making small progress as part of a long-term character building system. The progress overall is many times faster today than it ever was, with ilvl and trusts and RoE FoV Gov etc. but ultimately FFXI is a long-term RPG system.

As for the "I can't possibly get job points capped on all my jobs" type of thing, I don't think it was ever intended to be <That way.> I think JobPoints are similar to the old 75 days when most people had one or two main jobs at 75, and were slowly trying to max merits on those couple of main jobs. So again I think Jobpoints are true to the original FFXI game, as opposed to the sort of weird aby mutant creature it became later.

Job Points do represent a sort of minor nod to the past, with a slightly slower pace than what was allowed in Aby xp burns etc. Jobpoints are more true to the original FFXI game than any other additions of the past five years. In that Jobpoints do take time, and do involve chipping away at the progress a little bit every night, with a long term view to improving your character gradually - which is what FFXI started out as in the beginning, and what so many people were doing when FFXI was at its most popular.

[PlumbGame]

I think we used to spend our "whole evening's gaming time" just levelling jobs slowly to 75, and obtaining merits slowly. That is the core game FFXI, it is a long-term game, with "deferred gratification" and a slow long-term progression system.

They did eventually buckle to pressure and allow people to get xp and merits super-quickly, around 2010, but for the first six years or so the core FFXI game was about slow progress, ie. spending your evening game time notching up a few more points on your character's development.

So what I'm saying is that really this has always been the nature of FFXI, it is about spending your whole evening and making small progress as part of a long-term character building system. The progress overall is many times faster today than it ever was, with ilvl and trusts and RoE FoV Gov etc. but ultimately FFXI is a long-term RPG system.

As for the "I can't possibly get job points capped on all my jobs" type of thing, I don't think it was ever intended to be <That way.> I think JobPoints are similar to the old 75 days when most people had one or two main jobs at 75, and were slowly trying to max merits on those couple of main jobs. So again I think Jobpoints are true to the original FFXI game, as opposed to the sort of weird aby mutant creature it became later.

Job Points do represent a sort of minor nod to the past, with a slightly slower pace than what was allowed in Aby xp burns etc. Jobpoints are more true to the original FFXI game than any other additions of the past five years. In that Jobpoints do take time, and do involve chipping away at the progress a little bit every night, with a long term view to improving your character gradually - which is what FFXI started out as in the beginning, and what so many people were doing when FFXI was at its most popular.

Although I definitely approve of some content reminding me of my Nostalgia I disagree that Job Points are similar to the old days. They are the same idea as merits, but the rate of exp to gain them is significantly higher than EXP was back then. I feel the need to mention this (again), not because of you, but because you will probably get attacked that people don't want the old days as a valid excuse to change something that is already not like the old days.

I do think the JPs are also being overlooked as possibly a way to constantly be able to progress your character through EXP. I think this is why it may be crucial to not ever design content around the need for these, though they are easy to get. As far as we know, they aren't, so some of the over exaggeration by certain players isn't really merited as they seem to be making it out to be.

[dasva]

No, sorry, I don't think spending my whole evening's gaming time to gain one or two points solo is "a reasonable pace." I recall someone doing the math awhile ago and it worked out to OUTRAGEOUS amounts of time to cap CPs, especially if a person likes to play more than one job or is on a job that doesn't get invited to CP parties/other content that drops them.

As outrageous as those times are they are only the tip of the iceberg. Remember they are adding 2 more categories next update (and from the sounds of it making them more important/necessary to get) which will increase the amount needed to cap by 33%. But wait there's more... eventually they might increase the cap to 30 per category which assuming progression remains the same will require over 8 times as much as to cap as they are now at 10

[dasva]

I think we used to spend our "whole evening's gaming time" just levelling jobs slowly to 75, and obtaining merits slowly. That is the core game FFXI, it is a long-term game, with "deferred gratification" and a slow long-term progression system.
Yeah but here's the crux you could merit on any job and the amounts needed to upgrade were much smaller and the upgrades much larger for the most part.

For example a good pt was getting 2 merits an hour alternately I soloed a lot on blm getting a little over 1 an hour. Took 74 merits to do job specific stuff hard to factor in other things since it was highly job dependent and some categories could be borrowed by other jobs but that means it could take less than 40 hours to cap a job outside of things like stats/skill which you might have already had and could be done on any job.

Meanwhile a good pt is what 2-3 jp an hour normally? But it takes 330 to cap jp (as of right now it stands to increase by a lot) so ends up being much slower than merits were.

You also have to remember that the game is about vertical progression now while back then it was about horizontal and marginal increases. So spending a lot of time on merits made sense considering other improvements were often slower and more marginal... now though in the time it takes you to cap 1 job a new set of jp have come out as well as a few new sets of armor to get as well as some new battle system to explore/learn

[Malithar]

Meanwhile a good pt is what 2-3 jp an hour normally? But it takes 330 to cap jp (as of right now it stands to increase by a lot) so ends up being much slower than merits were.

You also have to remember that the game is about vertical progression now while back then it was about horizontal and marginal increases. So spending a lot of time on merits made sense considering other improvements were often slower and more marginal... now though in the time it takes you to cap 1 job a new set of jp have come out as well as a few new sets of armor to get as well as some new battle system to explore/learn

Try 8+ at least during non campaign (honestly, past two months we've spent MORE time with campaign than without), if not closer to 15-20 when running with an optimal group with cape, campaign, and Cor.

The bolded is important for all this talk of the old days and such. Back then, you'd spend hours just grinding merits to improve a job. Now, you grind exp for an hour, cap sparks, cap accolades, cap merits, all while getting JPs to better your job. The merits go towards BCs, sparks towards pages or gil, accolades towards Wanted for gear or gil. We're able to multitask in that way far better than we ever could. All this talk of hours and hours for JPs is silly when you need those hours and hours to be able to do other content too, unless you're of the mind that Delve and Skirmish are all that exist, and even then, you're earning those same things in there, just at a much slower pace.

Think of it as 4 birds with one stone. Besides only being applicable on the job you're earning them on, what's the honest downfall?

[dasva]

Try 8+ at least during non campaign (honestly, past two months we've spent MORE time with campaign than without), if not closer to 15-20 when running with an optimal group with cape, campaign, and Cor.

The bolded is important for all this talk of the old days and such. Back then, you'd spend hours just grinding merits to improve a job. Now, you grind exp for an hour, cap sparks, cap accolades, cap merits, all while getting JPs to better your job. The merits go towards BCs, sparks towards pages or gil, accolades towards Wanted for gear or gil. We're able to multitask in that way far better than we ever could. All this talk of hours and hours for JPs is silly when you need those hours and hours to be able to do other content too, unless you're of the mind that Delve and Skirmish are all that exist, and even then, you're earning those same things in there, just at a much slower pace.

Think of it as 4 birds with one stone. Besides only being applicable on the job you're earning them on, what's the honest downfall?

well yeah I meant like base rate not double campaign throwing out rings capes and and cor. I'll count those as the standard when they make them the standard... speaking of which given how often they do that and given how people feel about how slow it is why not just make the double campaigns permanent.

You also have to remember you have a good group to do stuff and don't play much during NA prime time on a server with good everything but NA population lol. Check the shouts for every jp pt I see there are 5-10 abyssea xp pts. And neither are what I'd call common. So most people aren't logging on and capping merits, sparks and accolades in an hour. And I think you know that given how limited the number of good camps are compared to the amount of competition you end up facing. For those it's working for it's great for the rest it's not so much.

[Malithar]

All I play during is NA time now, I switched to a 1st shift job about 2 months ago. And yeah, you're right, most still do their merits in Aby. That's moronic. :/ There's plenty that are interested in JPs enough to try though, and that's all it takes. Rings and capes are the standard though. If you're too cheap to spend 100k or whatever for +25% JPs, then there's not much help anyone can give you. Ring, same deal, if 5k Sparks or using your Red Pells when they roll around on a Vocation is too much, idk what to say. Cor, fair enough, won't always find one. Should still try though.

As far as parties, I've gotten numbers like that in less than ideal parties. It's really not that hard, you just need to gauge which camp is best for what you have. Lack buffers? Hit up Dho or a gates basement area with acc sets/food. Buffers? Hit up Woh Gates various camps, worms + rabbit loop is very lucrative if you can maintain it. Lack a good healer? Make sure buffers are prepared to pitch in, have a Dnc come, etc. Hell, I've kept a Dho Gates pugil/crab party alive as Geo/Rdm with a Geo-Regen + cures. We had to camp towards the middle of the area and pull towards us, but it still provided decent CP rates even though it wasn't ideal. My most lucrative one was what most would consider a bad party: 2x Blu War Geo Whm and a roll only Cor. Pulled in just under 17 JPs in an hour at the bat camp.

I agree that JPs work great for the one's who can make it work. But I'd argue that the one's who can't make it work just aren't trying. They hide behind "no one would take me" "no one wants to do them" "there's no benefit" "it's not worth it" etc. Time, fair enough. But you'd have the same complaint no matter how they set them up, unless it became nearly a handout as some in the thread have jumped to calling it. We've had tons of 2x rate campaigns. If you haven't capitalized on those, then full timing 2x rate won't change your mind.

[dasva]

A cape yes. But obviously some will be much better than others. True the ring is only 5k but it's 5k for a little over 1 jp so as fast as you are talking about it actually adds up fast. There is also the whole gearswapping before kills that can make things better for some who can do it easier with less errors this is especially true of mages who are more likely to cast or idle in non ilvl gear.

Anyways I was getting at your experience isn't the norm. As far as the hiding Idk... I have tried to make one or 2 which resulted in shouting for awhile and not much interest. I've also tried to join a couple and been told brd, cor, whm, geo or gtfo... except that really weird one a couple weeks ago where the guy was making some 18 person pt lol. So I started doing most mine while doing other stuff as you said. It's a lot slower but well I need the balyd anyways. But man if you got one going I want in!

[Stompa]

Yeah but here's the crux you could merit on any job and the amounts needed to upgrade were much smaller and the upgrades much larger for the most part.

For example a good pt was getting 2 merits an hour alternately I soloed a lot on blm getting a little over 1 an hour. Took 74 merits to do job specific stuff hard to factor in other things since it was highly job dependent and some categories could be borrowed by other jobs but that means it could take less than 40 hours to cap a job outside of things like stats/skill which you might have already had and could be done on any job.

Meanwhile a good pt is what 2-3 jp an hour normally? But it takes 330 to cap jp (as of right now it stands to increase by a lot) so ends up being much slower than merits were.

You also have to remember that the game is about vertical progression now while back then it was about horizontal and marginal increases. So spending a lot of time on merits made sense considering other improvements were often slower and more marginal... now though in the time it takes you to cap 1 job a new set of jp have come out as well as a few new sets of armor to get as well as some new battle system to explore/learn

I agree with you about the obtaining merits on any job, and this has been my only criticism of Jobpoints since the start. On the one hand I can understand the Lore and logic of Jobpoints being so specialised that SE made them available only on the job you earned them on, this makes sense to me in a purely logical RPG kind of way, but it has problems when it is translated to practical gaming.

As I said early on in this thread, I actually feel bad when I go help my friends on my WHM. I have helped them on my WHM for over ten years and I never felt bad about it, but I do now. Because I am getting jobpoints for divine seal and stuff, and on a utility job that I only play to help people, and that I can play perfectly well without jobpoints or godly gear. I have great admiration for serious WHMs who play it as Main, I am not criticising the job or people who play it as Main at all, only that I don't care about it one bit and so all the job points I would get by helping my friends on my WHM, are wasted Jobpoints to me.

So it really is a case of Jobpoints locked into the job you are playing, makes a lot of sense on paper, as Lore and basically common sense. But the system breaks down when it reaches ground level, and you end up earning points on jobs you don't care about, while your Main job does not progress. It is to the point I will go fishing or something instead of just rushing to help my friends on my WHM, and this is a new experience for me as I have always previously been happy to switch to WHM and support my friends' event.

[PlumbGame]

All I play during is NA time now, I switched to a 1st shift job about 2 months ago. And yeah, you're right, most still do their merits in Aby. That's moronic. :/ There's plenty that are interested in JPs enough to try though, and that's all it takes. Rings and capes are the standard though. If you're too cheap to spend 100k or whatever for +25% JPs, then there's not much help anyone can give you. Ring, same deal, if 5k Sparks or using your Red Pells when they roll around on a Vocation is too much, idk what to say. Cor, fair enough, won't always find one. Should still try though.

As far as parties, I've gotten numbers like that in less than ideal parties. It's really not that hard, you just need to gauge which camp is best for what you have. Lack buffers? Hit up Dho or a gates basement area with acc sets/food. Buffers? Hit up Woh Gates various camps, worms + rabbit loop is very lucrative if you can maintain it. Lack a good healer? Make sure buffers are prepared to pitch in, have a Dnc come, etc. Hell, I've kept a Dho Gates pugil/crab party alive as Geo/Rdm with a Geo-Regen + cures. We had to camp towards the middle of the area and pull towards us, but it still provided decent CP rates even though it wasn't ideal. My most lucrative one was what most would consider a bad party: 2x Blu War Geo Whm and a roll only Cor. Pulled in just under 17 JPs in an hour at the bat camp.

I agree that JPs work great for the one's who can make it work. But I'd argue that the one's who can't make it work just aren't trying. They hide behind "no one would take me" "no one wants to do them" "there's no benefit" "it's not worth it" etc. Time, fair enough. But you'd have the same complaint no matter how they set them up, unless it became nearly a handout as some in the thread have jumped to calling it. We've had tons of 2x rate campaigns. If you haven't capitalized on those, then full timing 2x rate won't change your mind.

We've had roughly 50days total of double CPs (this is including the one starting tomorrow) since the creation of JPs in march 2014 (look at the date, should be able to grind plenty since then WITHOUT double CP even). Roughly 36mins have to be spent a day during double CPs @ 10jps an hour (which is SUPER realistic and lower than what a lot of parties can do) to cap out an entire job. So time consuming though.

[Camiie]

As for the "I can't possibly get job points capped on all my jobs" type of thing, I don't think it was ever intended to be <That way.>

Just because it's "working as intended," doesn't necessarily mean that's how it should be. The devs are FAR from infallible in both intent and execution.


I think JobPoints are similar to the old 75 days when most people had one or two main jobs at 75, and were slowly trying to max merits on those couple of main jobs. So again I think Jobpoints are true to the original FFXI game, as opposed to the sort of weird aby mutant creature it became later.

How many "main jobs" I have and wish to max out should be for me to decide. The devs should really keep their intentions out of it.


Job Points do represent a sort of minor nod to the past, with a slightly slower pace than what was allowed in Aby xp burns etc. Jobpoints are more true to the original FFXI game than any other additions of the past five years. In that Jobpoints do take time, and do involve chipping away at the progress a little bit every night, with a long term view to improving your character gradually - which is what FFXI started out as in the beginning, and what so many people were doing when FFXI was at its most popular.

I don't want the past. I never asked for the past to rear it's ugly head again. It was dead and buried and I desperately wanted it to stay that way. The game is more fun to me now than at any point in the past except maybe for Abyssea. But now I have to suffer so that SE can appease a few people who are stuck with nostalgia goggles on. I don't mind the existence of the JP system. Although I think it really should have been an extension of the merit system, which wasn't broken, and no one I know of had any problem with.

[Stompa]

How many "main jobs" I have and wish to max out should be for me to decide. The devs should really keep their intentions out of it.



Well not really, they made the game and we are playing it, their intentions are part of the bundle. They have to walk a sort of trapeze to make the game appeal to most people, because not everyone thinks the same, so the Devs intentions have to encompass the whole spectrum of players. A lot of players do like challenges and grind and stuff lol.

A lot of players liked the old FFXI a lot, it was an incredibly popular and busy game back then with crowded servers. So you personally hated the old game and now you sneer at people with their "nostalgia goggles" etc. just because those people really liked the old game. You would have to explain to me why the old game had thousands of players on each server, if the game sucked back then. Today, with your easymode game that you wanted so much, we are getting like 300 ppl on our server lol. So obviously the old game you hated, was more busy and therefor more popular.

I like a lot of the updates they've made to the game, which have improved it. Level-synch and homepoint warps, mog gardens, etc. those are very good things. But that doesn't mean that the old game was horrible as you are suggesting.

It is ludicrous to suggest that all players including casual players with fairly small play-time (such as me) should be able to reach the pinnacle of ultimate achievement on all 20+ jobs, ie. capped Jobpoints, and in short time too. If everyone had capped Jobpoints on all jobs, it would no longer be meaningful, it would just be the uniform norm.

I have accepted that I will work on Jobpoints on the two jobs I play most, because I have limited game time and want to do crafting and stuff too. Jobpoints are a specialisation system to really give your favourite jobs some extra sparkle, its not like you need to have max capped Jobpoints on 20 jobs, and if you want to be so special on 20 jobs, then you should work 20x harder than somebody who just wants to make their one main job special. Nobody is stopping you capping Jobpoints on all jobs, it just means you have to grind full-time for absolutely ages, because you want to be the ultimate max power on every job in the game. I'm happy being powerful on a few jobs, and okay on the rest, as I don't play FFXI on extended playtime mode.

[PlumbGame]

Just because it's "working as intended," doesn't necessarily mean that's how it should be. The devs are FAR from infallible in both intent and execution.



How many "main jobs" I have and wish to max out should be for me to decide. The devs should really keep their intentions out of it.



I don't want the past. I never asked for the past to rear it's ugly head again. It was dead and buried and I desperately wanted it to stay that way. The game is more fun to me now than at any point in the past except maybe for Abyssea. But now I have to suffer so that SE can appease a few people who are stuck with nostalgia goggles on. I don't mind the existence of the JP system. Although I think it really should have been an extension of the merit system, which wasn't broken, and no one I know of had any problem with.

So they should also just make all your jobs lvl 99 then by your implications. They should also just give you RMEs. It shouldn't be up to the devs (lol seriously, apparently the devs should keep their intentions of what to put in the game out of it) to decide what I should or shouldn't have. If I choose to have a free mythic, it should be my choice.

Also, GG on ignoring the realistic time frames I give consistently, to support your "ludicrous" ideas of the difficulty to obtain JPs.

[Meyi]

Hmm, the speed of which some people claim to gain Job Points still baffles me, even with explanations. My LS kills monsters quickly, but even then it seems slow, and sometimes dull. And I want to help them gain their Job Points with a job that will kill faster (THF), but I also want to be selfish and progress on my favorite job (BLM). It can be a difficult decision for me sometimes and I can see the appeal that some people are claiming to make Job Points like merits, in which they can be exchanged on any job.

How would people feel about a 2:1 exchange ratio? For people who do get points on one job (like WHM) but really want the points on another job that is less beneficial to the group.

What I would like to see are some ways to get capacity points in original zones*. Especially with level sync. I have friends who want to level, and since Abyssea is pretty much nonexistent anymore, I want to help them level up, but at the same time, I don't want to gain slow merits when I can easily cap out merits in half an hour in Dho Gates. The cap points wouldn't have to be great, but it'd be nice to even get 100 a monster.

(* Edit: when I said original zones, I was thinking something like garrison for higher levels.)

[FrankReynolds]

The game was one of only a handful of MMOs back then, there were even fewer available on consoles which is what most people were playing on and the only one from the Final Fantasy series. That gave it a virtual lock for people who wanted this sort of thing for a very long time. The population began dropping drastically long before any "easy mode" stuff was added to it. I've been through 4 server merges on my various characters. The only one (that I experienced) that happened after the release of abyssea was Hades -> Cerberus and Hades was already hurting long before Abyssea came out. It's also been over ten years. That's a long time for anyone to play the same game with the same graphics regardless of how good the game is. Then there is the fact that a large portion of the populace went from being teenagers to having college / jobs / kids / wives etc that get in the way of games that require the kind of time and attention this game requires.

TLDR; a lot of the population problem probably has nothing to do with how easy the game has or hasn't gotten. SE doesn't ask why when you cancel, so there's really no way to know for sure.


So they should also just make all your jobs lvl 99 then by your implications. They should also just give you RMEs. It shouldn't be up to the devs (lol seriously, apparently the devs should keep their intentions of what to put in the game out of it) to decide what I should or shouldn't have. If I choose to have a free mythic, it should be my choice.

That's not at all what was implied. Your hyperbole and twisting of words is really getting out of control.


Also, GG on ignoring the realistic time frames I give consistently, to support your "ludicrous" ideas of the difficulty to obtain JPs.

According to your math I need to farm JP for somewhere between 130 and 375 hours during double CP campaigns to cap JP before they add more categories and expand the current ones which will probably double that.

You use a strange definition of "realistic".

[Protey]

What I would like to see are some ways to get capacity points in original zones. Especially with level sync. I have friends who want to level, and since Abyssea is pretty much nonexistent anymore, I want to help them level up, but at the same time, I don't want to gain slow merits when I can easily cap out merits in half an hour in Dho Gates. The cap points wouldn't have to be great, but it'd be nice to even get 100 a monster.

you can. here is one example: go to Gustav Tunnel. Go kill the turtles and worms that are down there. they are around level 100-102 and give CP. Grab page from book to get more exp too. can do the same thing in boyahda tree with crawlers/flies/crabs. pretty sure there are other places as well.

[Meyi]

you can. here is one example: go to Gustav Tunnel. Go kill the turtles and worms that are down there. they are around level 100-102 and give CP. Grab page from book to get more exp too. can do the same thing in boyahda tree with crawlers/flies/crabs. pretty sure there are other places as well.

Yeah, I thought about that after I hit post. That's why I edited to add I was thinking something like garrison, an instanced event where people can pop monsters and slaughter them. For zones like Qufim, Yuhtunga Jungle, etc.

[PlumbGame]

The game was one of only a handful of MMOs back then, there were even fewer available on consoles which is what most people were playing on and the only one from the Final Fantasy series. That gave it a virtual lock for people who wanted this sort of thing for a very long time. The population began dropping drastically long before any "easy mode" stuff was added to it. I've been through 4 server merges on my various characters. The only one (that I experienced) that happened after the release of abyssea was Hades -> Cerberus and Hades was already hurting long before Abyssea came out. It's also been over ten years. That's a long time for anyone to play the same game with the same graphics regardless of how good the game is. Then there is the fact that a large portion of the populace went from being teenagers to having college / jobs / kids / wives etc that get in the way of games that require the kind of time and attention this game requires.

TLDR; a lot of the population problem probably has nothing to do with how easy the game has or hasn't gotten. SE doesn't ask why when you cancel, so there's really no way to know for sure.



That's not at all what was implied. Your hyperbole and twisting of words is really getting out of control.



According to your math I need to farm JP for somewhere between 130 and 375 hours during double CP campaigns to cap JP before they add more categories and expand the current ones which will probably double that.

You use a strange definition of "realistic".

/comfort

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[Olor]

As for people saying "oh well it used to be like this..."

I quit when it was final grindy XI... and came back when the game became fun. The fact that exping used to take a long time or w/e is completely irrelevant to this conversation, which is about a game that has evolved and has a lot of players who specifically returned when the game got rid of that soul sucking nonsense.

Frankly if you love grinding that much, level a new job without trusts or exp rings or books etc.

[detlef]

A lot of people accepted FFXI for what it was back in the day because MMOs were just like that. When you signed on to play, you knew that was what you were going to get. People have different expectations now, and there are many other options if FFXI can't provide what they are looking for.

People are arguing two extremes right now and it's just silly. No, JP aren't THAT easy to get right now, but you can make real progress if you actually set out to do it seriously. Killing aquans at Biv #2 in Marjami is not doing it seriously. Even solo or in a PT or 2 or something, you should be able to get a couple JP in an hour. As I stated earlier in the thread, when you farm CP you don't just get CP. You get CP, merit, sparks, and accolades. Going out to farm will help you in many ways besides just CP.

With that said, people aren't wrong when they say the process could be easier. I agree with this as well. SE really needs to provide more camps with more reasonable CP rates more of the time (or all the time). This will become more necessary as gifts become more important and more JP categories are introduced.

Also, please don't fill the Gates zones with Dullahans, Craklaws, and Efts. That's just insulting. Nobody wants to fight that crap ever. And the argument that people want things handed to them is stupid and lazy, please come up with something better.

[Olor]

I pretty much agree with everything you said there detlef, even though I know people would probably consider me on one side of that extreme. Really though, I just don't think mob grinding is fun. It's not 2004 anymore. Game devs can do better than that. This is some lazy content.

[detlef]

I pretty much agree with everything you said there detlef, even though I know people would probably consider me on one side of that extreme. Really though, I just don't think mob grinding is fun. It's not 2004 anymore. Game devs can do better than that. This is some lazy content.Well don't get me wrong though, I actually like doing CP. I like the idea behind it and I think the process currently fills a void where you are focusing on improving gear instead of improving your character's traits and abilities directly. So I do enjoy this grind to some extent.

I just think that there should be more incentive to do it. To some extent there is because you're building up other useful currencies for other events as you farm CP. But I'm in favor of making double CP the permanent rate and I think accolade rates should be doubled permanently as well. Generally I believe JP are something that casuals should be able to cap out 1-2 of their favorite jobs in a straightforward manner if they put some effort into it. But it should allow really hardcore players to be able to cap out all their jobs if they desire. So we're not there yet but that's what I'm hoping to see. SE is going to keep expanding the system though, so I think everybody's going to have to accept some grinding though... I guarantee that as the system is expanded, it will become easier to get JP.

[Stompa]

As for people saying "oh well it used to be like this..."

I quit when it was final grindy XI... and came back when the game became fun. The fact that exping used to take a long time or w/e is completely irrelevant to this conversation, which is about a game that has evolved and has a lot of players who specifically returned when the game got rid of that soul sucking nonsense.

Frankly if you love grinding that much, level a new job without trusts or exp rings or books etc.

Grinding exp slowly in 2004 is relevant to the conversation, because people were complaining about grinding CAP slowly. My point was just that the core game was always that way, so if anything CAP represents a minor nod to the original game.

Your main job BST was the first job I ever took past lvl 30, I solo'd BST75 in 2004~2005, it was incredibly challenging to solo that job. You literally couldn't do it the same way today, because BST has Stout Servant now, and because SE changed the exp rate for EP/DC mobs so you are getting lots more exp for low end mobs. In the old days those mobs gave like 12xp lol, and jugpets died super fast without Stout Servant. So you had to charm and solo T/IT mobs all day.

You describe killing mobs on BST for jobpoints, as extremely boring. And one thing about BST in 2004 is that it wasn't boring - you were living on your nerves and having to charm mobs / kite / die (lol) constantly, gauge the pets' survival time, find replacement mobs, avoid links, avoid aggro. Mis-charms had to be dealt with by having back-up plans. You had to know all the maps, where all mobs popped, pinning areas, and soforth. You needed to play Bst with great skill just to get lvl 75. And it was stressful, and very very exciting. There was nothing boring about it. It was fun and exciting because it was difficult and required skill and nerves of steel lol. And you felt super super happy when you finally got 75.

In response to the "people quit because the game was hard back then," I'm sure that this is true. But I also know hundreds of people who quit at the start of Aby, when mules were leeching Fell Cleave parties and you saw mules rocking Maat's Cap after like a month of being AFK in FCs. I know a lot of people who were working on Maat's Cap on my BST Linkshell using the /bst charm update, and you could level all other jobs solo on /BST. A lot of other people had levelled jobs normally in parties for years, and were like 90% of the way to Maat's Cap. And then suddenly Aby FC arrive and mules are getting all jobs 99 while afk, lol. I know absolutely loads of people who quit FFXI at that point, because they felt all the effort they had put into levelling multiple jobs in xp parties for years, was being basically ridiculed. Obviously the hat isn't that great, but it was like a long-term project and a milestone symbol of how you had spent ages levelling different jobs.

I think long-term projects are very important, and the reason I like Jobpoints is they do offer something that I can work on over a long timescale. I really don't like stuff that you know you can finish in a few days. To me, short-term stuff is what is really boring, not killing millions of mobs for long-term goals. It was exciting when I saw my friend get Maat's Cap in 2009, using the /bst solo levelling system. It was boring when hundreds of mules got Maats Cap from Aby FC zombiemode afking. Stuff that is hard to get is fun, stuff that any mule can just leech is boring.

[Olor]

I played BST back then... there was some charm to it (har har har)

But as a person who has many interests in life, I simply did not have time for a game that punished me for wanting to play it.

It's unfortunate that anyone would advocate for the game to return to that. It's cheap, lazy game development.

And if you want something that is pointless and shiny and takes a long time, there is afterglow. That's the sort of thing that can be like "Maat's cap" - not basic job improvements (especially for jobs in dire need of them)

I'm sorry but basic character development should not be for masochists only.

Hell, I don't even complain that I can't have a mythic, especially now that some of the gap has closed between REM and dropped weapons.

I'm fine with content that's for people with more time/patience than me, but basic job traits/spells etc should not be locked behind miles of tedious grinding.

As I said earlier, if this was a couple accuracy or something I could deal with it.

Also I really don't care how fast others can get stuff, that's not my issue (as long as they aren't hacking or something) - I don't understand why it bothers people that other people can also get stuff, it really is a bizarre way of thinking about things. If people quit over others getting maat cap or w/e that's just nonsense.

Similarly I can't understand people here saying I GET 30 JP an HOUR! Complaining about others saying "hey, can we ease this up a bit so I can get some too?"

[PlumbGame]

I think some of the people jumping into this thread to give their 2cents now are completely degrading one side by claiming we are saying people want hand outs when they never said that yet people like FrankReynolds did say that.

The issue again, for me, since I have to repeat for the people not reading, and will probably have to repeat it again tomorrow, isn't if JPs are easy/hard to obtain. If they make it easier, all it does is allow me to get them faster than they already are. The issue has been people who are asking to make it easier because they want to do something like dyna vs CPing (which is funny because no matter how easy they make it you still have an issue in this case). Basically, people making false presumptions to validate the need to nerf something already so easy to gain.

Now there is legit reasoning to not design JPs around being required for end game etc, but there isn't valid reasoning at all in this thread so far as to the rate of gaining JPs.

[PlumbGame]

Show me where I implied anything of the sort. You won't. You can't. I didn't. You're lying... again.

All I ever said was that the JP system, as currently implemented doesn't fit in well with the current style of content and should be adjusted to be more in line with it. It also doesn't fit with the small and continually dwindling community.



You're not even coherent at this point.



If they're so realistic then prove them.

Can't tell if serious.

[PlumbGame]

I'm very sorry, my intention was never to insult you. Please accept my humble and sincere apology.

You shouldn't apologize, whether you mean it or not doesn't matter. They will still use it to try and validate their personal attacks.

[Protey]

It's unfortunate that anyone would advocate for the game to return to that. It's cheap, lazy game development.

No it's not, but I don't think you really even gave serious thought to this. If you had you would know that as we rose in levels they had to continuously balance jobs and decide when to give newer, more powerful spells, gear, and weapon skills. They had to balance so it wouldn't become too easy with our new found capabilities. They then also had to consider the mobs as well with the increasing levels so as to not be too easy and not too hard. They also had to come up with multiple camps and different mobs for people to be able to level up on. To say it's cheap, lazy game development is ignorance on your part.


I'm sorry but basic character development should not be for masochists only.


I'm fine with content that's for people with more time/patience than me, but basic job traits/spells etc should not be locked behind miles of tedious grinding.

Yes it should. It's ridiculous to think that one should be able to become super powerful, learning spells, weapons, etc all in one day (I so wish they would have made abyssea level 75 minimum). It should take a really long time, and the higher up you go, it should take even longer exponentially.


Hell, I don't even complain that I can't have a mythic, especially now that some of the gap has closed between REM and dropped weapons.

i think this mentality is part of your problem. anyone can have a mythic.


Also I really don't care how fast others can get stuff, that's not my issue (as long as they aren't hacking or something) - I don't understand why it bothers people that other people can also get stuff, it really is a bizarre way of thinking about things. If people quit over others getting maat cap or w/e that's just nonsense.

quitting is a bit much, but getting really upset is not. I know i would be very upset if tomorrow they started handing out mythics to players who have only done one day's of work to get it. It's called devaluing one's efforts.


Similarly I can't understand people here saying I GET 30 JP an HOUR! Complaining about others saying "hey, can we ease this up a bit so I can get some too?"

because we don't want the game to be easier than what it already is for us. easier for you = less enjoyment for us. And no, don't be ridiculous in thinking it has anything to do with watching you suffer. We don't care about you, everyone just cares about their own enjoyment. And yes, people do get enjoyment out of grinding.

[Meyi]

It's called devaluing one's efforts.


I personally disagree. It's still a huge accomplishment for any individual to achieve. I was one of the first BLMs on Bismarck to have Meteor (because I paid the huge price tag for it), but I'm happy that other BLMs can readily access the spell, too. It's a game, meant to be fun and to set challenges and goals for yourself and then meet them. Every person has a different comfort zone.


[I]t was slightly grindy and it reminded me of the old game. And that I personally liked the old game, and the grindyness and tiered stratified progression system.

I just wanted to say that I too was part of the BST to 75 bandwagon (who completely valued BST sub abilities, and also joined BST social LSes to hang out with the introverts of MMOs, haha!). And I used to love the grind of XP parties -- leveling up jobs was my favorite thing to do in the game, way back in the day.

But that was also when I was 15. I'm 26 now. I have a full time job, I have chores, I have critters to take care of, and I have people in my life requesting my time. I don't have as many hours to give the game as I used to.

Honestly I'm okay with Job Points. I wish I could personally achieve them faster (because I feel gimp and underpar without them), just like I wish I could have all the gear I want already. I take huge breaks (1-4 months at a time), and when I come back, all my friends have nice gear, while I'm still wearing inferior pieces. So that alone is the reason I wish I could achieve things faster. Otherwise, I enjoy the ride and appreciate the game for what it is: a way to pass time while recharging my inner battery, chatting with people I'm emotionally close to while partaking in a world that has been a significant part of my life.

I personally feel Job Points are a little slow. As someone else mentioned, I'd like to see double effect for them become permanent. Or, other ways to earn capacity points (again, I think they should be available for level syncs, or some kind of event would be fun too).

I don't know how people do 2 an hour, or 4 an hour, or 30 an hour. Well, maybe my LS can do 2 an hour, but I don't think I can do that solo. It certainly seems slow. And maybe part of the reason why it seems slow is that every upgrade means waiting even longer 'til the next.

What I'm tired of seeing is people getting their subligars in a pinch because some casual players asked for a reduction in time consumption. Nobody here asked for anything to be given to them. That's an immature conclusion. If you want your opinion to be heard, you have to listen first.

[Protey]

I don't know how people do 2 an hour, or 4 an hour, or 30 an hour. Well, maybe my LS can do 2 an hour, but I don't think I can do that solo. It certainly seems slow. And maybe part of the reason why it seems slow is that every upgrade means waiting even longer 'til the next.

as it should be.


What I'm tired of seeing is people getting their subligars in a pinch because some casual players asked for a reduction in time consumption. Nobody here asked for anything to be given to them. That's an immature conclusion. If you want your opinion to be heard, you have to listen first.

it's not an immature conclusion, your thinking about it is. I'm not going to go into every instance that has been mentioned in this thread, but here is one example: some people have been asking for more CP per kill. Those extra CP they would be getting, without having done anything to obtain it, that is having something given to them.

[detlef]

it's not an immature conclusion, your lack of thinking about it is. I'm not going to go into every instance that has been mentioned in this thread, but here is one example: some people have been asking for more CP per kill. Those extra CP they would be getting, without having done anything to obtain it, that is having something given to them.You're pretty much arguing that SE shouldn't ever make things easier. Did you complain when they allowed us to enter Salvage and Assault solo? What about when they reduced most Phantom Gem fights to 10 merits? Or made Einherjar daily? Does it upset you when double CP campaign comes around because people are getting extra CP without having done anything to obtain it?

[Protey]

You're pretty much arguing that SE shouldn't ever make things easier. Did you complain when they allowed us to enter Salvage and Assault solo? What about when they reduced most Phantom Gem fights to 10 merits? Or made Einherjar daily? Does it upset you when double CP campaign comes around because people are getting extra CP without having done anything to obtain it?

going into salvage/assault solo you still do the work. going into einherjar daily, you still do the work. I've already advocated more than once for SE to do away with CP campaigns.

[detlef]

I've already advocated more than once for SE to do away with CP campaigns.Wow. Okay then.

[Olor]

Basically they want everyone else to quit the game so they can be alone in the server and be better than all the non existent players!

[FrankReynolds]

It's worth noting that dude has almost certainly abyssea burned several of his jobs to 99 (irony). It's also worth noting that while he claims to love the grind, he doesn't seem to have many job points. Either he doesn't actually like farming JP like he says, or he's lying about how OMG easy they are for him. By all accounts, he should have capped and been done with them by now based on the (highly dubious) math in this thread and his own accounts of how much he loves farming. And, according to his own arguments, he should have gotten bored upon completing his JP farming and quit the game.

[PlumbGame]

What I'm tired of seeing is people getting their subligars in a pinch because some casual players asked for a reduction in already casual time consuming things. Almost all the baddies here have asked for everything to be given to them including free lvl 99s and RMEs and that SE should just stay out of it. That's an immature conclusion. If you want your opinion to be heard, you have to listen first.

Fixed.

10chars

[FrankReynolds]

Fixed.

10chars

Still trying to pretend that people said things that they didn't I see. You know that people can just look back through the thread and see that no one asked for anything relating to free levels and RMEs right?

[PlumbGame]

Still trying to pretend that people said things that they didn't I see. You know that people can just look back through the thread and see that no one asked for anything relating to free levels and RMEs right?

Except they did.

[Raydeus]

Still trying to pretend that people said things that they didn't I see. You know that people can just look back through the thread and see that no one asked for anything relating to free levels and RMEs right?

Why are you guys still feeding him though? He is obviously trolling.


PS > Like I said before, I'd rather have Camate or Grek tell us what exactly is the future of Job Points and if the grind will become mandatory eventually in order to do some content. Specially with these spells and abilities being added instead of just stat/ability boosts.

[Protey]

Why are you guys still feeding him though? He is obviously trolling.


PS > Like I said before, I'd rather have Camate or Grek tell us what exactly is the future of Job Points and if the grind will become mandatory eventually in order to do some content. Specially with these spells and abilities being added instead of just stat/ability boosts.

yes he is quite the troll. and i agree, i would like for them to state directly whether they will be needed to complete content. though i'm thinking in order for such content to exist they would probably have to do a whole new expansion with a huge vertical jump in level of mobs.

[PlumbGame]

Why are you guys still feeding him though? He is obviously trolling.


PS > Like I said before, I'd rather have Camate or Grek tell us what exactly is the future of Job Points and if the grind will become mandatory eventually in order to do some content. Specially with these spells and abilities being added instead of just stat/ability boosts.

Are you talking about FrankReynolds being a troll? Or are you stating anyone disagreeing with making JPs easier is a troll?

[PlumbGame]

The only person who said it was you. You are arguing with your self now.

Makes sense.

[dasva]

Guys don't you all know that lowering any requirement is the same as giving things away for free!

[PlumbGame]

Guys don't you all know that lowering any requirement is the same as giving things away for free!

When players say they want them for free, you are right. Hence the pinnacle of the most recent arguments. People feeling they deserve things like new BLM spells for FREE.

[Tidis]

When players say they want them for free, you are right. Hence the pinnacle of the most recent arguments. People feeling they deserve things like new BLM spells for FREE.

Alright I'm calling you out, quote someone who said they wanted job points for free, don't worry, I'll wait.

[Stompa]

I just wanted to say that I too was part of the BST to 75 bandwagon (who completely valued BST sub abilities, and also joined BST social LSes to hang out with the introverts of MMOs, haha!). And I used to love the grind of XP parties -- leveling up jobs was my favorite thing to do in the game, way back in the day.

But that was also when I was 15. I'm 26 now. I have a full time job, I have chores, I have critters to take care of, and I have people in my life requesting my time. I don't have as many hours to give the game as I used to.

Honestly I'm okay with Job Points. I wish I could personally achieve them faster (because I feel gimp and underpar without them), just like I wish I could have all the gear I want already. I take huge breaks (1-4 months at a time), and when I come back, all my friends have nice gear, while I'm still wearing inferior pieces. So that alone is the reason I wish I could achieve things faster. Otherwise, I enjoy the ride and appreciate the game for what it is: a way to pass time while recharging my inner battery, chatting with people I'm emotionally close to while partaking in a world that has been a significant part of my life.

I personally feel Job Points are a little slow. As someone else mentioned, I'd like to see double effect for them become permanent. Or, other ways to earn capacity points (again, I think they should be available for level syncs, or some kind of event would be fun too).

I don't know how people do 2 an hour, or 4 an hour, or 30 an hour. Well, maybe my LS can do 2 an hour, but I don't think I can do that solo. It certainly seems slow. And maybe part of the reason why it seems slow is that every upgrade means waiting even longer 'til the next.

What I'm tired of seeing is people getting their subligars in a pinch because some casual players asked for a reduction in time consumption. Nobody here asked for anything to be given to them. That's an immature conclusion. If you want your opinion to be heard, you have to listen first.

Thanks for replying to my post. I really lolled at your Bst "introverts" comment. The steely-eyed children of the wilderness lol.

I agree with the general points you made about getting older, having jobs, being casual etc. I do have FFXI switched on for long periods of time, but mostly it is in the background while I work, and I will play for 15 minutes here and there to stop myself going tunnel-vision from staring at my work page. I am certainly a casual player these days. But was still able to get jobpoints, just on a slower timeframe, and only by prioritising Jobpoints above other things.

But the point is that you can be casual player, enjoy the game, and still cap your main job's Jobpoints, slowly. But it can be done. The only thing a casual player can't do is burn through all new content in the first days after release. It takes us longer, but we can still enjoy the content and still achieve success if we are persistent and stay locked-on to the things that are important to us.

The problem with making content easier to appeal to casual players, is that more extended-playtime people will also have their content made easier. So with Jobpoints for example, it was intended to be a "high level advanced progression system" (paraphrased) and so it should be challenging for casual players to max their Jobpoints on their main job. This automatically means that it will be extra-challenging for those players who want to max Jobpoints across the whole job spectrum. If you make it easier for the casual player to max Jobpoints on his single main job, that means you make it easier for players who play for huge amounts of time, to max out points on every single job. This would unbalance the game further and it would be even more unfair than if the content was challenging for everyone.

[dasva]

When players say they want them for free, you are right. Hence the pinnacle of the most recent arguments. People feeling they deserve things like new BLM spells for FREE.

And yet I constantly see that you are saying you want them for free in response to just being lowered

[Olor]

If you make it easier for the casual player to max Jobpoints on his single main job, that means you make it easier for players who play for huge amounts of time, to max out points on every single job. This would unbalance the game further and it would be even more unfair than if the content was challenging for everyone.

Yes... but that's okay cause each of us can only play 1 job at a time... so if I have 1 or 2 jobs maxed out, and that's what I bring to the party I am exactly equal (at that time) to anyone else with their job maxed out. It doesn't matter if they have 22 jobs maxed out as long as the job I am on is maxed out. Hardcores have always been able to offer more job flexibility etc and that is okay, I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

As it is many hardcores have maxed out several jobs and many casuals don't have any jobs maxed so it's actually more imbalanced than making it a bit easier to obtain (especially solo) for the causal players. All it does is narrow the gap somewhat.

What I'd like to see:

-Double CP rates become standard CP rates
-Solo or other more causal opportunities to gain high percentage CP mantle or the like (seems weird/its bad design that SE actually made it easier for hardcore players to cap out CP than for casuals with hard to get mantle)
-increase "capacity ring" bonus to "vocation ring" levels or let us buy vocation rings.
-increase the amount of CP gained solo (I can see the argument against this one and am willing to admit this is purely selfish since I find it hard to party with my fave job)
-allow CP gain in older areas under level sync (crazy, I know, encouraging people to level together!)

[Protey]

Guys don't you all know that lowering any requirement is the same as giving things away for free!

indeed it is. i'll give an example: say you go to make a mythic. first day you farm 100 alex. before you go onto the next day to farm another 100 alex SE announces it will only take 100 alex to make a mythic. In essence, you just got 29,900 alex for free (not to mention almost all of the mythic).

[Zeargi]

I was thinking of a random idea, People seem to still complain about gaining the JP on certain jobs and we all know some are more desired than others. Why not have a Key item that you can get from the Moogle in Jeuno: Soul of [Insert Job Name]? With this KI, all JP gained would go to that job, and can only be gained for jobs that are lvl. 99. You have to physically go back to Jeuno to return it if you want a new one or return the KI to earn JP as usual. Just a thought, that way it's still similar to how merits are gained, but not deluded enough to make it so all your jobs gain CaP all at once. I'm mean, I still do the slow an steady thing and just kill things outside of West Adoulin.

[PlumbGame]

CP is doable now, no question. But your buddy Protey is so against increasing CP gains that he is actually opposed to double CP campaigns.

I've farmed enough JP to cap 2 jobs on my main without botting anything, so I have a pretty good idea of how things are right now. Right now it takes 95 JP to cap all gifts and 330 JP to cap all 6 categories to 10/10. We know that each upgrade costs one more JP than the last and that additional JP categories are coming this month. SE has also stated that they envision an eventual cap of 30.

Now again, I think things are fine now but only because the general populace is generally apathetic about JP (and therefore there's less competition for camps) and the caps are still relatively low. As they expand the system further, I think it will become necessary to make CP easier. It's not the same as reducing Mythics from 30k alex to 100. It's not dboxing RME to players. It is just something that makes sense, if not now then in the near future.

There is always a necessity for change as a game advances, but don't act like these responses have been directed towards a futuristic look at the job point system. This is directed at the now and present, and in fact, The Feb update. We aren't talking about future development for the game, again, the pinnacles of the most recent arguments have been directly related towards people not wanting to do JPs to get the new BLM spells, which resulted in an overall argument of the JP system. It's safe to assume, even more so looking at the ease of obtaining merits now, that this won't be the rate at CPs are gained forever, but given what we have from JPs and Gifts in current time, there is no logical reasoning (well maybe there is, but none have actually been provided, unless FrankReynolds calling us stupid and wrong = logical reasoning) behind increasing the rates of gaining CP other than the fact of people being lazy. Considering that people have already mentioned wanting to prioritize other content over actual CP farming, the implication stands, hence the arguments in the first place. Which if these people would actually read, know that my stance has always been directed as basically admitting to being lazy (inb4 same people ask for quotes again, are given them, still deny ever being said).

Also, Protey isn't my buddy and I don't even know the guy. Is this another issue in this thread that people just claim whatever they want?

I've also pointed out the easy in obtaining 330 jps at least during double CP campaigns, which actually, already pointing out to cammiee(sp, don't care to look up name), should probably just be permanently on since I'm willing to bet the majority of CP farming really only happens during these. I know that's when I do mine.

I think there is another problem stemming with JPs where people want to be able to obtain them on all jobs no matter what job they are on. I hope this feature will never be implemented. I very much enjoy the thought of people having to play the job they want JPs on. Obviously it will be easier to obtain JPs on some jobs than other jobs, but this is the case in ALL video games in general of certain jobs/classes/set ups/whatever being better at something vs another. It is almost impossible to fine tune jobs to such perfection that they are equal across the board.

[detlef]

There is always a necessity for change as a game advances, but don't act like these responses have been directed towards a futuristic look at the job point system. This is directed at the now and present, and in fact, The Feb update. We aren't talking about future development for the game, again, the pinnacles of the most recent arguments have been directly related towards people not wanting to do JPs to get the new BLM spells, which resulted in an overall argument of the JP system. It's safe to assume, even more so looking at the ease of obtaining merits now, that this won't be the rate at CPs are gained forever, but given what we have from JPs and Gifts in current time, there is no logical reasoning (well maybe there is, but none have actually been provided, unless FrankReynolds calling us stupid and wrong = logical reasoning) behind increasing the rates of gaining CP other than the fact of people being lazy. Considering that people have already mentioned wanting to prioritize other content over actual CP farming, the implication stands, hence the arguments in the first place. Which if these people would actually read, know that my stance has always been directed as basically admitting to being lazy (inb4 same people ask for quotes again, are given them, still deny ever being said).I'd welcome perma-double CP right now. It's definitely coming in the future, but I don't see why they couldn't implement it now. People who don't want to touch CP farming even during the double CP campaigns are still going to avoid it. I'll be out there regardless.


I've also pointed out the easy in obtaining 330 jps at least during double CP campaigns, which actually, already pointing out to cammiee(sp, don't care to look up name), should probably just be permanently on since I'm willing to bet the majority of CP farming really only happens during these. I know that's when I do mine.I assume you're capped on JP on at least one job right? You'd have to be the way you've been talking. At least Protey's been making Mythic weapons and can use that as a reason for not working on JPs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't FFXIAH default to showing JP so you'd have to hide them manually?



I think there is another problem stemming with JPs where people want to be able to obtain them on all jobs no matter what job they are on. I hope this feature will never be implemented. I very much enjoy the thought of people having to play the job they want JPs on. Obviously it will be easier to obtain JPs on some jobs than other jobs, but this is the case in ALL video games in general of certain jobs/classes/set ups/whatever being better at something vs another. It is almost impossible to fine tune jobs to such perfection that they are equal across the board.I'm probably on board with having to be on a specific job to earn JP. Unless you're absolutely shooting for max CP/hour, jobs can be pretty flexible for a CP group. I don't sense much pushback from the community on this one. Yeah some jobs got left out of merit PTs back in the day but having all the bandwagon BRDs and SAMs wasn't much better. With trusts you can conjure up your own support jobs anyway.

[Stompa]

Yes... but that's okay cause each of us can only play 1 job at a time... so if I have 1 or 2 jobs maxed out, and that's what I bring to the party I am exactly equal (at that time) to anyone else with their job maxed out. It doesn't matter if they have 22 jobs maxed out as long as the job I am on is maxed out. Hardcores have always been able to offer more job flexibility etc and that is okay, I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

As it is many hardcores have maxed out several jobs and many casuals don't have any jobs maxed so it's actually more imbalanced than making it a bit easier to obtain (especially solo) for the causal players. All it does is narrow the gap somewhat.

What I'd like to see:

-Double CP rates become standard CP rates
-Solo or other more causal opportunities to gain high percentage CP mantle or the like (seems weird/its bad design that SE actually made it easier for hardcore players to cap out CP than for casuals with hard to get mantle)
-increase "capacity ring" bonus to "vocation ring" levels or let us buy vocation rings.
-increase the amount of CP gained solo (I can see the argument against this one and am willing to admit this is purely selfish since I find it hard to party with my fave job)
-allow CP gain in older areas under level sync (crazy, I know, encouraging people to level together!)

Yeah my post wasn't actually complaining that some people play extended time and some people play an hour or two a day. My post was more about the essence of Jobpoints, which is that they are advanced customisation of your job. They are not supposed to be the same as going from level 15 to 16 in a Dunes party.

Jobpoints are the pinnacle of achievement in a given job, they SHOULD BE hard to get because they represent a Specialised Mastery of a particular job. So if the extended playtime person, wanted to get super flying godhood status on every job in the game, he should totally have to work crazy hard to do so. Because in RPG tradition, there are Masters of a specific class, but it would be super rare to see a Master of all classes, and that person would be a Demi-God at the very least.

It is easy to overlook this important point, when we start to break FFXI down into just number-crunching. These particular numbers (CAP) are not the same as other numbers, they represent an ultra-high level of proficiency and specialisation which mark the person as a true Master of that job. So they should be hard to cap out. That makes them more meaningful.

And it really isn't impossible for a casual player to choose a main job, and solo with trusts to get capacity points for a few hours on their evening game time. If you do that with dedication, you will have a main job with capped jobpoints eventually, and be a Master of that job in the roleplaying setting. It would take a few months if you were really casual. But you could do it. If Jobpoints are made too easy, the Mastery will become Standard, which would make people feel less happy about their accomplishments.

Merit points are a good comparison, I felt very proud of the merits I earned in the pre-aby days, but then when aby arrived and any naked mule could cap merits while AFK in their pyjamas, I felt less proud of my own merits that I had worked hard for in TOAU and even earlier. Because that mastery I had worked hard for in some really fast-paced merit parties (I was the stressed-out WHM in those parties lol), this achievement had now become something that mules could get while they were literally asleep in their little starting-gear pyjamas at flux 8 altepa[a]. :p

[PlumbGame]

I assume you're capped on JP on at least one job right? You'd have to be the way you've been talking. At least Protey's been making Mythic weapons and can use that as a reason for not working on JPs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't FFXIAH default to showing JP so you'd have to hide them manually?

Yes, capped on JP points for thief, and working on Burtgang and just finished Aegis if this is the info you looking for? Not exactly sure how to set FFXIAH to display job points, honestly I think it was about 2 weeks ago I finally sycned my account there? I'm pretty sure I enabled to show everything. When I was at the options all the things say no on whether to hide or not. So I can't tell you why they don't show.

Though I don't know what any relevance this has with our discussion except trying to take a cheap shot at me, especially since not having all JPs and claiming they are easy to get just shows even more that they should be easy to get when someone on the side of the lower end of JPs even thinks they are easy.

[detlef]

Edit: Deleted because you just won't get anything through your thick skull.


Yes, capped on JP points for thief, and working on Burtgang and just finished Aegis if this is the info you looking for? Not exactly sure how to set FFXIAH to display job points, honestly I think it was about 2 weeks ago I finally sycned my account there? I'm pretty sure I enabled to show everything. When I was at the options all the things say no on whether to hide or not. So I can't tell you why they don't show.

Though I don't know what any relevance this has with our discussion except trying to take a cheap shot at me, especially since not having all JPs and claiming they are easy to get just shows even more that they should be easy to get when someone on the side of the lower end of JPs even thinks they are easy.Oh I thought you were BSing. And people were taking shots at each others accomplishments based on FFXIAH profiles so it seemed kosher (at least in this thread).

If you argue JP should be a certain way, your viewpoint has more credibility when you've already put in the hours farming them. So I respect your opinion a little more now.

[dasva]

indeed it is. i'll give an example: say you go to make a mythic. first day you farm 100 alex. before you go onto the next day to farm another 100 alex SE announces it will only take 100 alex to make a mythic. In essence, you just got 29,900 alex for free (not to mention almost all of the mythic).

indeed it isn't. i'll give an example: say you go to make a mythic. first day you farm 100 alex. before you go onto the next day to farm another 100 alex SE announces it will only take 29900 alex to make a mythic. In reality, you still only have 100 alex (not to mention almost all of the mythic still to make).

[Protey]

indeed it isn't. i'll give an example: say you go to make a mythic. first day you farm 100 alex. before you go onto the next day to farm another 100 alex SE announces it will only take 29900 alex to make a mythic. In reality, you still only have 100 alex (not to mention almost all of the mythic still to make).

indeed it still is. you just got 100 alex for free as it takes 100 less than what it did before. instead of having left to farm 29,900 you only have to farm 29,800.

[PlumbGame]

Yeah now read that again and see how it is highly subjective. Nice try though trying to make your opinion fact. Now read back to where you said they actually said it not that you purposefully read more into there statements

What?

Also, I did FACTUALLY gain 20jps an hour, it isn't my opinion that I did it and that it may be possible.

[PlumbGame]

Oh I thought you were BSing. And people were taking shots at each others accomplishments based on FFXIAH profiles so it seemed kosher (at least in this thread).

If you argue JP should be a certain way, your viewpoint has more credibility when you've already put in the hours farming them. So I respect your opinion a little more now.

Aww ok, the only reason FFXIAH got brought up is because when you argue with people you tend to maybe try and do some research on them (past posts etc...) at least I do. So Protey I think it was used FFXIAH to research the FrankReynolds guy a little and the site is pretty accurate when it comes to using the AH and stuff obviously, and from all relevant info on this FFXIAH profile, he doesn't even play. Granted he may never sell stuff on the AH (highly unlikely) etc.. So was tossed around that his opinion is irrelevant since he doesn't even play the game, which he actually hasn't refuted at all making it even worse imo, but whatever.

[FrankReynolds]

What?

Also, I did FACTUALLY gain 20jps an hour, it isn't my opinion that I did it and that it may be possible.

I'm curious as to what / where you were killing. Maybe you would get more people on your side if you told us how exactly that we can get 10,000 CP a minute.


indeed it still is. you just got 100 alex for free as it takes 100 less than what it did before. instead of having left to farm 29,900 you only have to farm 29,800.

Not exactly game breaking.

[dasva]

What?

Also, I did FACTUALLY gain 20jps an hour, it isn't my opinion that I did it and that it may be possible.

Whoa there cowboy you need to stop taking things purposefully out of context and/or mixing up one quote with another or combining them or flat out interjecting your own opinion as fact. Reread what I wrote again and what I quoted and what that was in response to and try to find where your jp/hr was even mentioned

er edit: nvm doesn't seem you can as that whole quote train seems gone now including what you just quoted... how weird. Regardless it was in reference you your whole saying those people implied they wanted it for free

[dasva]

indeed it still is. you just got 100 alex for free as it takes 100 less than what it did before. instead of having left to farm 29,900 you only have to farm 29,800.

And yet you still have exactly the same amount... it's almost like you weren't given anything but just had the requirements lowered...

But thanks for showing everyone that this isn't really about handouts you just oppose lowering any requirements ever

[Meyi]

What?

Also, I did FACTUALLY gain 20jps an hour, it isn't my opinion that I did it and that it may be possible.

Care to elaborate how, so that those of us who are complaining about slow job points can gain them faster and agree with you?

[Alhanelem]

-Double CP rates become standard CP ratesYES.


Vocation RingYes!


-allow CP gain in older areas under level sync (crazy, I know, encouraging people to level together!) No. There's plenty of encouragement in better CP gains to party already.


Care to elaborate how, so that those of us who are complaining about slow job points can gain them faster and agree with you? Spam that powerful BLU aoe spell (i cant remember the name but like every blu is using it to aoe burn) on the worms and bunnies in woh gates. it wrecks them. I was there once and some blu came in and AOE'd like 6 worms down at once.

[Siviard]

YES.

Yes!

No. There's plenty of encouragement in better CP gains to party already.

Spam that powerful BLU aoe spell (i cant remember the name but like every blu is using it to aoe burn) on the worms and bunnies in woh gates. it wrecks them. I was there once and some blu came in and AOE'd like 6 worms down at once.

That would be Subduction, sir. And I can attest to what he's saying, I was in the same party with him earlier today and we saw this BLU absolutely demolishing multiple mobs at a time with it.

[Singforu]

And yet you still have exactly the same amount... it's almost like you weren't given anything but just had the requirements lowered...

But thanks for showing everyone that this isn't really about handouts you just oppose lowering any requirements ever

requirements lowered = given stuff.

[Singforu]

Not exactly game breaking.

he was making a point, you obviously missed it.

[dasva]

requirements lowered = given stuff.

I love this magical land where you can be given stuff and still not have any more of said stuff

[Singforu]

Alright I'm calling you out, quote someone who said they wanted job points for free, don't worry, I'll wait.

people requesting lowering of requirements is asking for free. even if the entirety of it isn't free, a portion of would still be free.

[Singforu]

I love this magical land where you can be given stuff and still not have any more of said stuff

/headdesk

just because you don't get the whole thing for free doesn't mean you aren't getting part of it for free.

[dasva]

/headdesk

just because you don't get the whole thing for free doesn't mean you aren't getting part of it for free.

/doubleheadesk

Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean you got a handout or got something for free. The 2 have entirely different meanings and connotations. At best you could call this a sale or keeping up with the time, adjusting for changes in the market, deflation etc. I mean even the smallest flat screen used to cost tons but now they are cheap and no one other than the salemen would say they are giving them away

[Tidis]

I would wager that the majority of players haven't capped a job of their job point categories, it's all well and good saying, "Look how amazing I am, I already capped my job points, why are these people complaining, CP rate is fine, they just want handouts", you are part of the minority, it is in SE's best interest to have their content be as inclusive as possible, job points isn't inclusive in it's current form and will definitely be the case if they raise the category caps beyond 10 each.

You see it as an accomplishment fine, you have it, you're already reaping the rewards for being the early adopters to a broken system, you get all the job gifts and all the superior gear right now, while players like me will probably wait and just casually obtain Job Points until an inevitable nerf to Job Points happens and it will.

[Singforu]

/doubleheadesk

Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean you got a handout or got something for free. The 2 have entirely different meanings and connotations. At best you could call this a sale or keeping up with the time, adjusting for changes in the market, deflation etc. I mean even the smallest flat screen used to cost tons but now they are cheap and no one other than the salemen would say they are giving them away

/tripleheadesk

yes it does mean if something is cheaper you got a handout or something for free. Go buy a car. The salesman sells it to you for one dollar. If you don't think you just got 99% of that car for free you are deluding yourself.

[Singforu]

I would wager that the majority of players haven't capped a job of their job point categories, it's all well and good saying, "Look how amazing I am, I already capped my job points, why are these people complaining, CP rate is fine, they just want handouts", you are part of the minority, it is in SE's best interest to have their content be as inclusive as possible, job points isn't inclusive in it's current form and will definitely be the case if they raise the category caps beyond 10 each.

You see it as an accomplishment fine, you have it, you're already reaping the rewards for being the early adopters to a broken system, you get all the job gifts and all the superior gear right now, while players like me will probably wait and just casually obtain Job Points until an inevitable nerf to Job Points happens and it will.

except that's not what is happening. looking at the people arguing that CP rate is fine, they don't have capped JP. JP is inclusive in its current form. Everyone can get them. Just because you don't get them in one day doesn't make them exclusive. The only "nerf" of JP I see happening that hasn't already happened is even more capacity rate gain from higher levels of gifts. Since they have already shown getting a rate increase at 5, 25, 55, and 95 i'm going to go out on a limb here and say the next ones will be at 145, 205, 275, and 355.

[FrankReynolds]

/tripleheadesk

yes it does mean if something is cheaper you got a handout or something for free. Go buy a car. The salesman sells it to you for one dollar. If you don't think you just got 99% of that car for free you are deluding yourself.

There's a huge difference between paying what something is worth and getting something for free. It can easily be missed when you use terms like "99% off" in your analogies because that is a gross exaggeration of what people actually want. taking 99% off of a $30,000 car is about as close to free as one could hope. Taking %50 off of a $30,000 car is a great deal, but It's still a $15,000 car. And if most people didn't really think the car was worth anywhere near $30,000 to begin with, it's probably actually the correct price.

Using hyperbole like 99% off a car or 100 alex Mythics is a great argument technique if people don't know any better, but we do know better and no one asked of that.

[dasva]

/tripleheadesk

yes it does mean if something is cheaper you got a handout or something for free. Go buy a car. The salesman sells it to you for one dollar. If you don't think you just got 99% of that car for free you are deluding yourself.

Right because everyone here is asking for 99% off right? Try again with without the strawmen

[detlef]

Oh no Singforu found this thread.

[Singforu]

Right because everyone here is asking for 99% off right? Try again with without the strawmen

it's not a strawman, but yours is. any # will do, doesn't matter the amount. I will bring it back to JP though for you that can't figure out the similarities of asking something as reducing price is same as getting something for free:

say you are getting 100 CP a kill. It would take 300 kills to get a JP.
SE then makes it so you get 300 CP a kill.
In 300 kills you are getting 3 JP. That's 2 JP for free for the work of only doing 1.

[Singforu]

There's a huge difference between paying what something is worth and getting something for free. It can easily be missed when you use terms like "99% off" in your analogies because that is a gross exaggeration of what people actually want. taking 99% off of a $30,000 car is about as close to free as one could hope. Taking %50 off of a $30,000 car is a great deal, but It's still a $15,000 car. And if most people didn't really think the car was worth anywhere near $30,000 to begin with, it's probably actually the correct price.

Using hyperbole like 99% off a car or 100 alex Mythics is a great argument technique if people don't know any better, but we do know better and no one asked of that.

it was an example to prove a point, which clearly went over your head.

[Olor]

YES.

Yes!

No. There's plenty of encouragement in better CP gains to party already.


Thanks for taking the time to consider my suggestions.

Honestly even if just the two you liked were implemented it would make CP a lot more reasonable.


can't figure out the similarities of asking something as reducing price is same as getting something for free

We can't "figure it out" because it's ludicrous. My boots were $100 off. That doesn't mean I got them for free. That's just so many facepalm I can't even count them.

Honestly, its fine to disagree with others. If you really really like how grindy CP is, that's fine. You have a right to that opinion. I don't understand it, because there are enough CP in enough categories that you could grind them for years even if they vastly increased the rate of gain, but again, that's an opinion and a preference and you have a right to it.

But you don't have a right to redefine reality.

[Singforu]

We can't "figure it out" because it's ludicrous. My boots were $100 off. That doesn't mean I got them for free. That's just so many facepalm I can't even count them.

what's facepalm is that you don't realize that you got $100 for free.

[Seillan]

Thanks for taking the time to consider my suggestions.

Honestly even if just the two you liked were implemented it would make CP a lot more reasonable.


We can't "figure it out" because it's ludicrous. My boots were $100 off. That doesn't mean I got them for free. That's just so many facepalm I can't even count them.

Honestly, its fine to disagree with others. If you really really like how grindy CP is, that's fine. You have a right to that opinion. I don't understand it, because there are enough CP in enough categories that you could grind them for years even if they vastly increased the rate of gain, but again, that's an opinion and a preference and you have a right to it.

But you don't have a right to redefine reality.

I agree. I might be more on the side of preferring long-term progression (as my earlier post pointed out), but the argument that getting something for less = getting something for free is just straight up nonsense. My troll senses are tingling.

[dasva]

it's not a strawman, but yours is. any # will do, doesn't matter the amount. I will bring it back to JP though for you that can't figure out the similarities of asking something as reducing price is same as getting something for free:

say you are getting 100 CP a kill. It would take 300 kills to get a JP.
SE then makes it so you get 300 CP a kill.
In 300 kills you are getting 3 JP. That's 2 JP for free for the work of only doing 1.

I don't think you know what the words you are using mean. So yes I can't figure it out because it's simply not what those words mean. You purposefully exaggerated something in a way no one was suggesting to make it look like your point worked. But if you did a reasonable amount no one would agree with you. No one says about how their Safeway club card gives them stuff for free.

A discount isn't getting something free it's getting something cheaper. There is a reason why our language has these separate words and terms and it isn't redundancy and there is a difference. If they truly meant the same thing then there would be absolutely no stigma towards asking for free stuff nor would it even be considered a derogative as it is now and as it is being used in this thread.

[dasva]

what's facepalm is that you don't realize that you got $100 for free.

What's more facepalm is you still don't know what the definition of free is. But here is Merriam try to see which one fits your definition



1

a : having the legal and political rights of a citizen

b : enjoying civil and political liberty <free citizens>

c : enjoying political independence or freedom from outside domination

d : enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another

2

a : not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being : choosing or capable of choosing for itself

b : determined by the choice of the actor or performer <free actions>

c : made, done, or given voluntarily or spontaneously

3

a : relieved from or lacking something and especially something unpleasant or burdensome <free from pain> <a speech free of political rhetoric> —often used in combination <error-free>

b : not bound, confined, or detained by force

4

a : having no trade restrictions

b : not subject to government regulation

c of foreign exchange : not subject to restriction or official control

5

a : having no obligations (as to work) or commitments <I'll be free this evening>

b : not taken up with commitments or obligations <a free evening>

6

: having a scope not restricted by qualification <a free variable>


7

a : not obstructed, restricted, or impeded <free to leave>

b : not being used or occupied <waved with his free hand>

c : not hampered or restricted in its normal operation

8

a : not fastened <the free end of the rope>

b : not confined to a particular position or place <in twelve-tone music, no note is wholly free for it must hold its place in the series — J. L. Stewart>

c : capable of moving or turning in any direction <a free particle>

d : performed without apparatus <free tumbling>

e : done with artificial aids (as pitons) used only for protection against falling and not for support <a free climb>

9

a : not parsimonious <free spending>

b : outspoken

c : availing oneself of something without stint

d : frank, open

e : overly familiar or forward in action or attitude

f : licentious

10

: not costing or charging anything


11

a (1) : not united with, attached to, combined with, or mixed with something else : separate <free ores> <a free surface of a bodily part> (2) : freestanding <a free column>

b : chemically uncombined <free oxygen> <free acids>

c : not permanently attached but able to move about <a free electron in a metal>

d : capable of being used alone as a meaningful linguistic form <the word hats is a free form> — compare 5bound 7

12

a : not literal or exact <free translation>

b : not restricted by or conforming to conventional forms <free skating>

13

: favorable —used of a wind blowing from a direction more than six points from dead ahead


14

: not allowing slavery


15

: open to all comers

[Olor]

I agree. I might be more on the side of preferring long-term progression (as my earlier post pointed out), but the argument that getting something for less = getting something for free is just straight up nonsense. My troll senses are tingling.

See, I respect this. Just like I respect the fellow who disagreed with me about getting CP while synced down on a 99 job. That's cool. We have different views of things, but we recognize the difference between an opinion and redefining words.

[Singforu]

I don't think you know what the words you are using mean. So yes I can't figure it out because it's simply not what those words mean. You purposefully exaggerated something in a way no one was suggesting to make it look like your point worked. But if you did a reasonable amount no one would agree with you. No one says about how their Safeway club card gives them stuff for free.

A discount isn't getting something free it's getting something cheaper. There is a reason why our language has these separate words and terms and it isn't redundancy and there is a difference. If they truly meant the same thing then there would be absolutely no stigma towards asking for free stuff nor would it even be considered a derogative as it is now and as it is being used in this thread.

no i didn't exaggerate to make it look like my point worked. i could have used 99%, 50%, 25%, or even 1%. try another strawman. and thank you for proving my point by mentioning "reasonable amount" and "Safeway club card". Amount doesn't matter, 99% free or 1% free, it's still partially free.

you saying you don't think i don't know what the words mean doesn't make it so. I use words as they are defined. I gave an example of how 2 JP were given with only the work for 1. That is free as in the definition of: "not needing to be paid for" because you only paid for 1 JP and not the other 2 JP.

A discount is getting something for free. I'll use Olor's example of $100 off on her boots. Say she has $300 in her pocket and goes to buy a pair of $300 boots. When she gets to the store to her surprise they offer to give it for $100 off. So she leaves the store with a $300 pair of boots and $100 still in her pocket. Net gain: $100.

[detlef]

Here's another analogy. Let's say you have two coupons. One is for a free cookie. The other is a buy one cookie, get one free. Can we see the difference now? Getting a cookie without paying anything versus getting an extra cookie if you pay full price?

Double CP campaign means if you put in the work for CP you get extra. It's not the same as just free CP without putting in the work.

[scaevola]

what's facepalm is that you don't realize that you got $100 for free.

that's

uh

gosh

i hope you never have to buy a used car, buddy

[FrankReynolds]

it was an example to prove a point, which clearly went over your head.

No, I got it. It was just wrong and you purposely used skewed numbers in an attempt to make it sound like people were asking for much more than they are.

[dasva]

no i didn't exaggerate to make it look like my point worked. i could have used 99%, 50%, 25%, or even 1%. try another strawman. and thank you for proving my point by mentioning "reasonable amount" and "Safeway club card". Amount doesn't matter, 99% free or 1% free, it's still partially free.

you saying you don't think i don't know what the words mean doesn't make it so. I use words as they are defined. I gave an example of how 2 JP were given with only the work for 1. That is free as in the definition of: "not needing to be paid for" because you only paid for 1 JP and not the other 2 JP.

A discount is getting something for free. I'll use Olor's example of $100 off on her boots. Say she has $300 in her pocket and goes to buy a pair of $300 boots. When she gets to the store to her surprise they offer to give it for $100 off. So she leaves the store with a $300 pair of boots and $100 still in her pocket. Net gain: $100.

Yeah sorry calling BS. You don't go to the huge extreme of 99% off on a whim. If you really thought those other percentages would've helped your argument you would have used them. Is English not your first language? Because that isn't what strawman means either. Nor do my examples come close to proving your point. And there is no such thing as partially free

Clearly you don't. Because guess what you still worked for those JPs you just happened to get more out of them but you still had to work for them. The value of work (like most values) is subjective. Increasing the value placed on that work does in no one shape or form count as getting free stuff because you still have to work for it. If it was really without cost or payment you would have just gotten it and yet no you still have to go out farm... almost like there was still a cost just a lower one. By that logic a raise free money. Heck by that insane leap of logic inflation is actually free money for everyone! And if they raise the requirements it's stealing!

Net gain? She left that store with $200 less than when she entered. What she "gained" was a greater amount of value per amount of money she spent but she didn't gain a single dollar.

[Singforu]

Yeah sorry calling BS. You don't go to the huge extreme of 99% off on a whim. If you really thought those other percentages would've helped your argument you would have used them. Is English not your first language? Because that isn't what strawman means either. Nor do my examples come close to proving your point. And there is no such thing as partially free

Clearly you don't. Because guess what you still worked for those JPs you just happened to get more out of them but you still had to work for them. The value of work (like most values) is subjective. Increasing the value placed on that work does in no one shape or form count as getting free stuff because you still have to work for it. If it was really without cost or payment you would have just gotten it and yet no you still have to go out farm... almost like there was still a cost just a lower one. By that logic a raise free money. Heck by that insane leap of logic inflation is actually free money for everyone! And if they raise the requirements it's stealing!

Net gain? She left that store with $200 less than when she entered. What she "gained" was a greater amount of value per amount of money she spent but she didn't gain a single dollar.

You can call it BS all you want, it doesn't matter, because the % doesn't help nor hinder my point at all. The amount doesn't matter, don't know how many times i need to repeat that. And it's you that doesn't seem to have english as a first language. Attacking a Strawman is creating the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition and then to refute or defeat that false argument. That is what you did. The point being argued in generality of that reducing requirements equaled getting something for free. You said "You purposefully exaggerated something in a way no one was suggesting to make it look like your point worked" when other people's suggestions had nothing to do with the argument. It was whether or not reducing requirements equaled getting something for free in any situation. So yes, you did a strawman. Your statement implied mine was correct only because of the % I used. The amount doesn't matter. And yes there is such things as partially free. I will give an example: SE makes it so you don't have to do nyzul tokens to obtain a mythic. Part of your mythic (the nyzul tokens part) is now free. The whole thing isn't, just that part.

No you didn't work for those JP. you worked for the first one. You got the other two for free. The value of work for JP is already defined, it isn't subjective. Your saying that increasing the value on that work does in no one shape or form count as getting free stuff because you still have to work for it is ludicrous. You are doing less work for 3 JP than what is normally required. There is a base work/CP already established. If you double the CP gain rate, you are doing 1/2 the work to obtain the same amount. If you triple the CP gain rate, you are doing 1/3 the work to obtain the same amount.

She goes and sell that $300 dollar boots for $300. She now has $400. Items of value = dollars = items of value.


Well, I'd love to stay and argue with your silliness some more; however, you can reply all you want, but I won't see it. I am going on vacation (I'm sure you won't miss me) to Antarctica soon and so I need to pack and get ready to go.

Square Enix - please don't make any decisions based off what is said in this thread over the next 2.5 weeks, thanks!


=P

[detlef]

Okay but buying 10 coffees and getting the 11th free is not the same thing as getting a free coffee. Yeah, you didn't have to pay anything for that 11th coffee but you also had to buy 10 coffees to make it happen.

[FrankReynolds]

Think of it like this. When a company doesn't pay enough, people quit and / or decline their job offers. Why? Because the pay isn't in line with the value of the work performed. So they offer more money. It's not free money. People still have to work for it.

The same thing applies here. People don't feel that the pay is equal to the work. They don't want free CP. They want CP quantities balanced to their value. There's always gonna be that one guy who just loves the work so much that he doesn't care if he gets paid at all, but the rest of the world doesn't work that way.

There is no "free" money. Just some people demand more for their effort.


Okay but buying 10 coffees and getting the 11th free is not the same thing as getting a free coffee. Yeah, you didn't have to pay anything for that 11th coffee but you also had to buy 10 coffees to make it happen.

And they probably charged you more for the first 10 cups to compensate for that "free" one :p

[elqplau]

I don't party I solo my jobs i don't aby burn or book burn. ..didn't sumner burn either i figured y burn something then have to spend time skilling it lol...now there are books to skill with but do u kno the job? not really

[Meyi]

Amount doesn't matter, 99% free or 1% free, it's still partially free.

Yeah except we all know 2% fat milk tastes better than 1%. :P

Sometimes amount truly matters.


Net gain: $100.

No, just not as big of a loss. In order to have gained she would have needed to have been paid to take the boots. With your example (of the boots costing $300), she would only be -$200 instead of -$300, but would still have less money after leaving the store than she had had before entering.

Saving money and gaining money are two different things. Sales and discounts are savings, not profits.

[Urteil]

How can you all not understand that this is here to rectify the Abyssea mistake of allowing every job to be burned to 99.
Its so obvious it makes this entire thread pointless.


Start grinding your JP and stop posting in this thread. Or quit XI.

[Tidis]

How can you all not understand that this is here to rectify the Abyssea mistake of allowing every job to be burned to 99.
Its so obvious it makes this entire thread pointless.


Start grinding your JP and stop posting in this thread. Or quit XI.

I suppose you're right, perhaps you should petition SE to delete every account that hasn't farmed 50 job points on a job by now, the gear is clearly labelled superior and therefore only the superior players should remain.

Oh right, SE wouldn't have much of an MMO left if they had a "Grind JP or quit" philosophy.

[Grekumah]

Greetings,

We have received several questions in regards to Superior gear, so we'd like to explain the concept for Superior in general.

Superior gear was introduced to allow powerful item level gear to be created by crafters, which horizontally expands ways to increase your item level.

As many of you already know, equipment introduced post Adoulin were given item levels. The concept here is to have players obtain equipment with item levels corresponding to the difficulty of the current content, and having their stats increase according to these item levels.

However, there are various ways to play FFXI, and there are those who enjoy their time in Vana'diel without participating in high-level end game content.

We considered introducing high level items without the EX trait which could be purchased through the auction house or synthesized by high skilled crafters; however, if we introduced this powerful gear without restrictions, it would have allowed players to simply purchase powerful item level gear from crafters or the auction house.

This goes against the concept of players completing specific tasks to increase the strength of their jobs and growing their character.

For this reason, we introduced the Gift system where players can obtain gifts by accumulating job points, which is similar to leveling up. With the introduction of the Gift system we were able to add in Superior gear which has become another route for players to gain item levels without going through end game content.

Superior gear is designed so that Superior 1 allows players to aim for gear with item level 119 so that they might challenge the end game content, and Superior 2 opens up equipment with even greater stats. We would like players who don't have the opportunity to participate in end game content to use superior gear as another way to increase your item level and grow your character.

[Gwydion]

Greetings,

We have received several questions in regards to Superior gear, so we'd like to explain the concept for Superior in general.

Superior gear was introduced to allow powerful item level gear to be created by crafters, which horizontally expands ways to increase your item level.

As many of you already know, equipment introduced post Adoulin were given item levels. The concept here is to have players obtain equipment with item levels corresponding to the difficulty of the current content, and having their stats increase according to these item levels.

However, there are various ways to play FFXI, and there are those who enjoy their time in Vana'diel without participating in high-level end game content.

We considered introducing high level items without the EX trait which could be purchased through the auction house or synthesized by high skilled crafters; however, if we introduced this powerful gear without restrictions, it would have allowed players to simply purchase powerful item level gear from crafters or the auction house.

This goes against the concept of players completing specific tasks to increase the strength of their jobs and growing their character.

For this reason, we introduced the Gift system where players can obtain gifts by accumulating job points, which is similar to leveling up. With the introduction of the Gift system we were able to add in Superior gear which has become another route for players to gain item levels without going through end game content.

Superior gear is designed so that Superior 1 allows players to aim for gear with item level 119 so that they might challenge the end game content, and Superior 2 opens up equipment with even greater stats. We would like players who don't have the opportunity to participate in end game content to use superior gear as another way to increase your item level and grow your character.

You said nothing that we don't already know. You said nothing that we couldn't already infer from the name "Superior 1" vs "Superior 2" ..... :(

[Malthar]

Grekumah,

You guys really should turn over development to us, the players, because the devs seem to get more clueless as time goes on.

Seriously, though. It would be a win-win for all those involved. SE can lease FFXI to a group of devs/players voted on by the FFXI community, probably the windower folks. They would in turn develop FFXI for minimal compensation and charge the player base enough so that SE can make a decent profit and pay for the server hosting. Yes, yes, I know how you guys feel about unofficial third party software, but from what I've heard, they've done a darn good job improving the play-ability of FFXI. Being an XBOX player, and considering the ultimate demise of FFXI on XBOX, I would like to see most of what is implemented in windower standard in FFXI. The development team has been following this trend anyway. And yes, I know the development environment is from the PS2 standpoint, and to continue maintaining FFXI a whole new environment would have to be put together and the code revamped and that would be as difficult as making a new MMO from scratch, but the player base dev community can actually make that happen! You can lease the game and the concept, the player base dev community would rejuvinate FFXI to come up to 2015 standards, and all SE would have to do is to make sure the general theme of FFXI is adhered to and reap in the dough! It's a win-win!

So how about it? Lease FFXI and concept to the player base development community so that we, the players, can have a better game with better expansions, and SE can have a cash cow with virtually zero maintenance. It's a win-win!

[Rainehx]

Grekumah,

You guys really should turn over development to us, the players, because the devs seem to get more clueless as time goes on.

Seriously, though. It would be a win-win for all those involved. SE can lease FFXI to a group of devs/players voted on by the FFXI community, probably the windower folks. They would in turn develop FFXI for minimal compensation and charge the player base enough so that SE can make a decent profit and pay for the server hosting. Yes, yes, I know how you guys feel about unofficial third party software, but from what I've heard, they've done a darn good job improving the play-ability of FFXI. Being an XBOX player, and considering the ultimate demise of FFXI on XBOX, I would like to see most of what is implemented in windower standard in FFXI. The development team has been following this trend anyway. And yes, I know the development environment is from the PS2 standpoint, and to continue maintaining FFXI a whole new environment would have to be put together and the code revamped and that would be as difficult as making a new MMO from scratch, but the player base dev community can actually make that happen! You can lease the game and the concept, the player base dev community would rejuvinate FFXI to come up to 2015 standards, and all SE would have to do is to make sure the general theme of FFXI is adhered to and reap in the dough! It's a win-win!

So how about it? Lease FFXI and concept to the player base development community so that we, the players, can have a better game with better expansions, and SE can have a cash cow with virtually zero maintenance. It's a win-win!

Hilarious notion!

If this where the case it would be weeks till you had every decent item in the game available at the mog house for free, have you read the posts on the forum of people asking for things to be given to them? yeah lets do what the playerbase wants. The game would be dead in a month, mission accomplished?

Its really frustrating how the few try to change the game for them, regardless of the effect on others who have played for many many years and are quite content, the ones who are likely to play even after updates stop because they enjoy the game, not just prancing about displaying there recent shinnies. the ones SE should try to keep not drive away.

I wouldn't do it, if I found this game so incompatible to myself I wouldn't play, not try to make it worse for others to my benefit, and what a dwindling few we now seem to be.

[Malthar]

Read my post again, and this time read it intelligently without jumping to conclusions, then edit your post.

[Stompa]

Hilarious notion!

If this where the case it would be weeks till you had every decent item in the game available at the mog house for free, have you read the posts on the forum of people asking for things to be given to them? yeah lets do what the playerbase wants. The game would be dead in a month, mission accomplished?

Its really frustrating how the few try to change the game for them, regardless of the effect on others who have played for many many years and are quite content, the ones who are likely to play even after updates stop because they enjoy the game, not just prancing about displaying there recent shinnies. the ones SE should try to keep not drive away.

I wouldn't do it, if I found this game so incompatible to myself I wouldn't play, not try to make it worse for others to my benefit, and what a dwindling few we now seem to be.

I really love a lot of recent improvements that SE have made to FFXI.

Especially armor/job lockstyle changes, which is something that I've been hoping for since 2004, as it never made any sense to me that some jobs can't wear certain types of gear. So I really like the new lockstyle changes that allow WAR to wear Freestyle armors, for example, even though it is for purely cosmetic effect, that is still a huge improvement and makes the game far more enjoyable and logical to me.

Honestly I think SE have added so many cool new features and improvements to FFXI, over the last 18~ months, I think they've done a great job. And I'm really looking forward to the Goddess Gala and the Rhapsodies which are going to happen this year. So I'm really happy with all the new stuff from the last few years, and quite excited about the Big Finale content too.

On the subject of jobpoints/SU, as I said before, I love jobpoints and the idea of SU is a great idea, but I wish they'd made SU gear totally JSE, so if you earn 100 jobpoints for WAR, which you have to earn on WAR only, that unlocks SU 1&2 brackets on WAR only, but then the SU gear is for multiple jobs and isn't really connected to WAR abilities. So I think SU should have been JSE, but I still really love Jobpoints and I think the Gifts system is a really great idea. It is one of many extremely positive changes that have been added in the last 18 months, and I do really thank SE for the effort they've put into keeping FFXI enjoyable despite the dwindling playerbase.

[AtrixWolfe]

Grekumah,

You guys really should turn over development to us, the players, because the devs seem to get more clueless as time goes on.

Seriously, though. It would be a win-win for all those involved. SE can lease FFXI to a group of devs/players voted on by the FFXI community, probably the windower folks. They would in turn develop FFXI for minimal compensation and charge the player base enough so that SE can make a decent profit and pay for the server hosting. Yes, yes, I know how you guys feel about unofficial third party software, but from what I've heard, they've done a darn good job improving the play-ability of FFXI. Being an XBOX player, and considering the ultimate demise of FFXI on XBOX, I would like to see most of what is implemented in windower standard in FFXI. The development team has been following this trend anyway. And yes, I know the development environment is from the PS2 standpoint, and to continue maintaining FFXI a whole new environment would have to be put together and the code revamped and that would be as difficult as making a new MMO from scratch, but the player base dev community can actually make that happen! You can lease the game and the concept, the player base dev community would rejuvinate FFXI to come up to 2015 standards, and all SE would have to do is to make sure the general theme of FFXI is adhered to and reap in the dough! It's a win-win!

So how about it? Lease FFXI and concept to the player base development community so that we, the players, can have a better game with better expansions, and SE can have a cash cow with virtually zero maintenance. It's a win-win!

Not to rain on your parade because I enjoy your enthusiasm and putting it out there, but I don't really think that would be the best idea, I can detail why:
1) FFXI unlike many MMOs broke the mold and decided to lead rather than follow. It has many original ideas and is unlike any other MMO I have ever played, this is because SE bets on their own ideas and takes reasonable risks. They did the same with XIV but it was incomplete at launch and flopped, and now it has to be a follower rather than a leader, copying popular game design and asking the players what they would want. This is a fine way to make a game, don't get me wrong, but it is not a great way to make something unique and wonderful the world never has seen before, like FFXI.
2) Communities can get very out of control very quickly. While open source makes things easier to develop and get lots of work on it has the very big issue of without someone making the shots on what gets worked on in what priority and coming up with original ideas, giving players unexpected things than it will slowly become simply something the players (not all of them but the loud minority usually or those with ties to those in charge) wish to see. This will ostracize many.
3) Drama is inherent whenever you get a group of people with conflicting interests and have them try to work together, not to mention differing ideologies and best practices for dev... at that point it would become meteoric. Throw in different people wanting to be in charge and feeling they should be in charge and I see it as nothing but a nightmare.
4) SE has already made the decision to move the game to a native app, in other words a game built from the ground up with new dev tools, for android and iOS. I highly doubt they will ever jeopardize the success of that project by making a competing version. If they're smart though, which I hope they do, they will allow characters people have poured 14 years into, to continue to exist. That is a lot of time, gone. And they will alienate their core audience if they don't keep the characters alive.

I realize many players have justifiable reasons to be upset with SE. One can look at the outstanding bug list, the balance issues and so on, though I will say on balance that a perfectly balanced game rarely exists and is rarely interesting, balance changing is part of what keeps the game engaging and alive. I think they do a great job for their team size however, in the amount of content they develop. If SE seems somewhat disconnected from players, just remember, that's the reason FFXI is unique in the first place. This core group of people are allowed to exercise their own ideas. Which is rare in development of any kind. Catering to player wishes is what FFXIV has ended up having to do, but it's not the higher road. To me, it is like the artsy movie that comes out and sweeps up a ton of awards, versus the summer movie fodder meant to be crowd pleasers. If you just ask a ton of people what they want to see and go on that, you'll get the fun, but unmemorable summer action flick, forgotten before the summer is even out. If you give a core group of talented artistic people the ability to exercise their unique vision, sometimes you get a home run that lasts. FFXI if anything has lasted, and I think their development cycle though often a frustration and seems disconnected from players, is the same place that all the things we love and care about in FFXI came from. You can't have one without the other. Handing it over to a community would not be a good decision, they already have plans to remake the title for phones and tablets, and the best we can hope for now is the preservation of years and days of game-play in the form of character data.

I also wish to clarify, hoping my metaphors made clear my points above, I don't think FFXIV is going anywhere anytime soon, and it is not completely the forgettable summer action flick, more a balance between that and some core ideas of SE's own. I feel you do feel that compromise though when you play, and it holds your hand much the same way WoW and other popular MMO's that it was modeled after do. One could argue that FFXI in some ways modeled itself after everquest, which is true, but it took such a unique different direction.