Is FFXI getting a cash shop?

[Pixela]

So now that FFXIV is getting a cash shop and looking "cool" will cost money are Square going to go the same way with FFXI?

[Shirai]

Depending on the success of the cash shop in XIV XI might also see something similar. In the end it just means extra money for Square Enix and its shareholders.

That said, XIV is full of little vanity items that XI doesn't have and likely won't get either, like the minions, extra mounts and equipment dyes.
On the other hand XI has had a plethora of extra in game bonus items that came with the purchase of specific merchandise like the Tidal Talisman and other things where several world regions were excluded because said items weren't available for them. (Australia and Europe come to mind, but a lot of stuff was also available only to Japanese players)
SE could decide to open a little shop for those items, we don't know.

All in all, I've said the same when I still played XIV when they opted the idea there, as long as they aren't adding any pay to win items/options and/or are starting their own "legit" RMT business I won't object.

[Pixela]

Depending on the success of the cash shop in XIV XI might also see something similar. In the end it just means extra money for Square Enix and its shareholders.

That said, XIV is full of little vanity items that XI doesn't have and likely won't get either, like the minions, extra mounts and equipment dyes.
On the other hand XI has had a plethora of extra in game bonus items that came with the purchase of specific merchandise like the Tidal Talisman and other things where several world regions were excluded because said items weren't available for them. (Australia and Europe come to mind, but a lot of stuff was also available only to Japanese players)
SE could decide to open a little shop for those items, we don't know.

All in all, I've said the same when I still played XIV when they opted the idea there, as long as they aren't adding any pay to win items/options and/or are starting their own "legit" RMT business I won't object.

Pay to win is in the eye of the beholder, pay to win means buying items that are outright better than anything available in-game. They can get around that by adding one in-game mount that is faster than most others but which is really hard and grindy to get, and then making all cash shop items as fast as that.

Almost no MMO is p2w, XP boosts, gold boosts and dungeon timer reset scrolls are all pay for convenience. There are lots of things that many of us would find bad that aren't p2w so people need to stop using that term.

[Shirai]

Pay to win is in the eye of the beholder, pay to win means buying items that are outright better than anything available in-game. They can get around that by adding one in-game mount that is faster than most others but which is really hard and grindy to get, and then making all cash shop items as fast as that.

Almost no MMO is p2w, XP boosts, gold boosts and dungeon timer reset scrolls are all pay for convenience. There are lots of things that many of us would find bad that aren't p2w so people need to stop using that term.

Pay to win or pay for convenience... It's apples and oranges and I'm not here to debate semantics but merely to give my personal opinion about the cash shop.
As I said, I don't mind if there's going to be a shop where they specifically sell ingame items like the Moogle cap, Tidal talisman, Orchestrion scores without having to buy/import actual merchandise.
Heck, they can even add Coeurl and Tiger mounts for all I care. They're not game breaking items that give one a huge advantage over others.

If they however start selling things like "Dynamis access timer resets", ilevel 1xx gear/weapons and the like... Well, let's just say they'll probably see another decline in player population.

[Numquam]

I would pay so they would let me cross-dress.

[Finuve]

I'd quit if they added one

[Shirai]

I'd quit if they added one

To be fair, you'd better prepare for departure.
If the concept proves, in any way, successful in Final Fantasy XIV it is very likely that they will do the same for this game.

Chances are that it will be.

In the end only one thing counts, money, cold hard money.

[Tidis]

I'd have no problems with SE adding a payed service as long as it was basically a case of things like "Oh you can't get a Delve win, here buy this Nahtirah Hat", as long as players paying for stuff don't get an advantage I couldn't really care, hell, it might even improve good players who for whatever reason haven't been able to get x,y,z piece of gear. I know a major complaint will be bad players getting gear they won't know how to use but bad players will probably continue to be bad players no matter what gear they get and if not, they'll improve a little.

[Dale]

I'd quit if they added one

I don't blame you.

I already pay monthly to play this game. That should be sufficient and I don't want to have to pay extra on the side for more inventory space or cool cosmetics. Though I doubt I would quit if they added one. But I still wouldn't like it.

Also I know several people already who want to play this game but don't due to the costs. The monthly fee may not seem like much to some of us. But for those with a family trying to get by on minimum wage it can be burdensome. So I think the last thing this game needs is more costs associated with playing it.

Plus I should point out that cash shops never seem to improve the quality of the game either. So the cash incurred from them doesn't go into development.

[Poo]

...I don't want to have to pay extra on the side for more inventory space...



This is essentially what the original hardware security token was.

You paid 10 dollars and doubled your inventory.

It was exceedingly popular, as would be any future paid inventory expansion were they to go that route--which I find very doubtful they would.

I would go so far as to say I'd be willing to pay $1 a month for 80 more Sack/Satchel-like slots versus the money I currently pay for a mule which I don't actually use beyond harvesting login points and mailing junk to.

[Dale]

This is essentially what the original hardware security token was.

You paid 10 dollars and doubled your inventory.

It was exceedingly popular, as would be any future paid inventory expansion were they to go that route--which I find very doubtful they would.

I would go so far as to say I'd be willing to pay $1 a month for 80 more Sack/Satchel-like slots versus the money I currently pay for a mule which I don't actually use beyond harvesting login points and mailing junk to.

To reinforce your point the extra money you pay monthly for a mule character isn't much different than the retainers from Final Fantasy 14.

[Raydeus]

Unless they add an HD texture pack and a proper DX9 (preferably 11) client upgrade to the cash shop I have no interest whatsoever in it.

But I wouldn't mind if other players spent more money on XI either. As long as they don't go retarded about it's implementation and don't cut content from the game's updates to sell it in the cash shop I couldn't care less about it.

Edit >
I'm talking exclusively vanity items here, if they ever added something as stupid as Login points, R/M/E weapon items, etc. they better make the game F2P because there's no chance in hell I'd pay a sub on top of that.

[Dale]

Unless they add an HD texture pack and a proper DX9 (preferably 11) client upgrade to the cash shop I have no interest whatsoever in it.

But I wouldn't mind if other players spent more money on XI either. As long as they don't go retarded about it's implementation and don't cut content from the game's updates to sell it in the cash shop I couldn't care less about it.

Edit >
I'm talking exclusively vanity items here, if they ever added something as stupid as Login points, R/M/E weapon items, etc. they better make the game F2P because there's no chance in hell I'd pay a sub on top of that.

I feel close to the same way. Cosmetic items I can live with (though I still wouldn't like it). But if they turn the game into P2W and allow players to start purchasing items that give them advantages in terms of actual gameplay I would have a real problem with it. Because I don't believe this sort of thing belongs in a subscription-based game.

[Pixela]

A cash shop should not exist in a p2p title at all, everything is supposed to be paid for with that subscription. All the wages, all the overheads etc.

If they start adding extra things to buy then it will influence development meetings, cosmetics or not. The point of a cash shop is to sell that new item, they aren't going to make design choices with actual content that hurt sales.

To use an analogy, it's like a company in a small town that makes roads (running the mmo and making it the best they can) and opens another side venture making soft tyres (cash shop). If they realise they can make a lot of money from tyres if the roads are less perfect and more bumpy do you really think they will make those roads as perfect as they can be? or will the boss in charge of everything make the roads less perfect so they can ensure people buy those special tyres and have a softer ride? It's common sense how it works.

That's why I hate cash shops, not for what they are but for how they influence development. There are so many ways a cash shop is negative to a game like this, in terms of lowering the aesthetic of items available ingame (They will have meetings about, will these new ingame items hurt cash shop sales because they look nicer etc), to taking development time away from content to make cash shop items (cause they sure won't take on new staff for that) and finally do hurting lore because they will start adding things like baseball caps and things.. As I said above, the cash shop becomes a factor in all design decisions from that point on and that's not a good thing.

The sad mentality of most mmo players is that cash shops make people spend a huge amount of money and they are easily manipulated by peer pressure.

[Dale]

A cash shop should not exist in a p2p title at all, everything is supposed to be paid for with that subscription. All the wages, all the overheads etc.

If they start adding extra things to buy then it will influence development meetings, cosmetics or not. The point of a cash shop is to sell that new item, they aren't going to make design choices with actual content that hurt sales.

To use an analogy, it's like a company in a small town that makes roads (running the mmo and making it the best they can) and opens another side venture making soft tyres (cash shop). If they realise they can make a lot of money from tyres if the roads are less perfect and more bumpy do you really think they will make those roads as perfect as they can be? or will the boss in charge of everything make the roads less perfect so they can ensure people buy those special tyres and have a softer ride? It's common sense how it works.

That's why I hate cash shops, not for what they are but for how they influence development. There are so many ways a cash shop is negative to a game like this, in terms of lowering the aesthetic of items available ingame (They will have meetings about, will these new ingame items hurt cash shop sales because they look nicer etc), to taking development time away from content to make cash shop items (cause they sure won't take on new staff for that) and finally do hurting lore because they will start adding things like baseball caps and things.. As I said above, the cash shop becomes a factor in all design decisions from that point on and that's not a good thing.

The sad mentality of most mmo players is that cash shops make people spend a huge amount of money and they are easily manipulated by peer pressure.

Agreed. I've never seen a cash shop contribute in a positive way to any game.

[Stompa]

FF14 always felt like a pewpewpew arcade game to me, I filed 14 under the "rpg-themed arcade game" as it never felt I was playing an actual rpg, it was just an arcade game in an rpg-styled world. So I don't have issues with them selling things in that game, as it isn't a realistic rpg world anyway. Any game with "!" over peoples head directing you to the next quest, which will level you up and give you the correct armor for your new lvl, is not an atmospheric rpg it is just a slightly convoluted arcade game. If people want to buy stuff in that game, it matters not to me because I'm only interested in roleplaying games.
FFXI's realism comes from the vast gulf between the gil and gear a lvl one adventurer has, the 100~ gil items that mobs drop for the new players, and the enormous stratified heirarchy that lies ahead/above that new player, with the hugely expensive compulsory-devotion weapons at the end game. This enormous gulf, and crossing it, is what makes the realism of a true RPG. You are not supposed to have Hero Gear, until you have been a Hero for a long time. If you are a new adventurer, you should be proud of being a new adventurer, and enjoy your slow and exciting journey towards the realms of Heroes. That is the core meat and bones of roleplaying 'fighting fantasy' games. If you add an option that turns new adventurers into Heroes using a credit card, the game ceases to be a realistic roleplaying 'fighting fantasy' game, not just for the player who is buying progress, but for everyone else in that virtual world.

[Deirdre]

FF14 always felt like a pewpewpew arcade game to me, I filed 14 under the "rpg-themed arcade game" as it never felt I was playing an actual rpg, it was just an arcade game in an rpg-styled world. So I don't have issues with them selling things in that game, as it isn't a realistic rpg world anyway. Any game with "!" over peoples head directing you to the next quest, which will level you up and give you the correct armor for your new lvl, is not an atmospheric rpg it is just a slightly convoluted arcade game. If people want to buy stuff in that game, it matters not to me because I'm only interested in roleplaying games.
FFXI's realism comes from the vast gulf between the gil and gear a lvl one adventurer has, the 100~ gil items that mobs drop for the new players, and the enormous stratified heirarchy that lies ahead/above that new player, with the hugely expensive compulsory-devotion weapons at the end game. This enormous gulf, and crossing it, is what makes the realism of a true RPG. You are not supposed to have Hero Gear, until you have been a Hero for a long time. If you are a new adventurer, you should be proud of being a new adventurer, and enjoy your slow and exciting journey towards the realms of Heroes. That is the core meat and bones of roleplaying 'fighting fantasy' games. If you add an option that turns new adventurers into Heroes using a credit card, the game ceases to be a realistic roleplaying 'fighting fantasy' game, not just for the player who is buying progress, but for everyone else in that virtual world.


This is really well said. I resubbed in Vana'diel last week, I missed the living world that it is. In the however many years I played previous to Seekers, there was always tons of gear that I never got and knew I never would--and that's ok. If I had wanted it THAT badly I could have sold my soul to a HNMLS or raised gil or whatever. The option should always be in-game, and it should be up to you if you wish to take that or not. No to cash shops. I don't care if they're selling pink starting level 1 RSE or 119 weapons, no cash shops in Vana'diel. This is one of (maybe the only?) Sub based MMO without one; and it's one of the only that feels like a living, breathing world. Let's keep it that way.

[Lsd25]

Hah a living breathing world, some people surely are pathetic but i don't know what to expect after seeing some of the fools that went to final fantasy 14 fan fest truely the dregs of society.

Get used to it, if the shop works well for 14 and im sure it will they will add one to 11 to keep pumping more profit from the game and tbh i don't see the fuss vaniety items who really gives a damn, no one forces you to buy them so stop moaning about it. If you don't want to use the shop don't but i'm sure plenty would.

[Deirdre]

Well it's very simple--the argument of "no one forces you to buy anything" is immaterial. If you SEE someone running around looking like Cloud, you are affected by it. You want it in a 'modern MMO' like XIV, fine. XI is an old style MMO and in general, that's how the playerbase seems to like it. Cause let's be honest, if you are looking for a SE MMO that offers all the modern stuff, ARR is very easy to like. It's much prettier, if nothing else.

[Jeanna]

Wow does it pretty well, all they sell are mounts and pets, and a few plushies, none of which really effect actual game play at all. They also have paid race/gender/faction changes. It's also made them a toooooooooooon of money. Their first store bought mount made them millions in the first couple hours.

Espeically if some of the money goes back into stuff like improving the game, future x-pacs, possibly customer support, something similar would be nice for ffxi.

[Deirdre]

Wow does it pretty well, all they sell are mounts and pets, and a few plushies, none of which really effect actual game play at all. They also have paid race/gender/faction changes. It's also made them a toooooooooooon of money. Their first store bought mount made them millions in the first couple hours.

Espeically if some of the money goes back into stuff like improving the game, future x-pacs, possibly customer support, something similar would be nice for ffxi.

Well, as FFXIV forums are convinced that cash shop money will go to fund other SE projects, that works out wonderfully, because their money can then go to funding XI, just as XI's money went to funding the original 1.0 :) ...we know that won't happen; and odds are excellent, excess cash shop money from XI would go to FF15 or FF16 or random phone game. XI has a higher sub fee than just about any MMO out there, and it's a game that doesn't require an enormous amount of support. What does that translate to? Not getting a lot of money funneled that way if it turns a higher profit than normal for a given month.

[Jeanna]

Wow also has a paid character boost (60 bucks gives you a level 90 - current max level is 90 with the new x-pac coming out bumping it 95) which is something I'm a bit on the fence about. There's a bit of an argument there that it's an advantage. It's not like it's hard to level in either game though, ffxi especially as most people just leech in abyssea or other places and aren't really learning anything as they level up. I'd personally probably pay for some max level jobs on some of my chars if they ever offered it in 11.

[vienne]

Hah a living breathing world, some people surely are pathetic but i don't know what to expect after seeing some of the fools that went to final fantasy 14 fan fest truely the dregs of society.

Get used to it, if the shop works well for 14 and im sure it will they will add one to 11 to keep pumping more profit from the game and tbh i don't see the fuss vaniety items who really gives a damn, no one forces you to buy them so stop moaning about it. If you don't want to use the shop don't but i'm sure plenty would.

Every thread has its obvious troll, I probably shouldnt bite, but I will.
Some people have played this game for many years and not all are people who have no life with every obtainable piece of gear out there. And no its not about seeing others buying X piece of gear with rl money for which themselves have worked so hard for... xi with a cashshop just wouldnt be xi. XI has many years on the counter without a cashshop i'd prefer it as it is cause little chance the money will be used on the game itself.
Also dont forget those "Pathetic people" you are referring too also are the ones who pay a sub for the same content you are playing, which deems you equally pathetic (you even get extra pathetic points for insulting everyone who has a heart for this game, maybe you can go spend them at your nearest cash shop).

[Pixela]

Wow does it pretty well, all they sell are mounts and pets, and a few plushies, none of which really effect actual game play at all. They also have paid race/gender/faction changes. It's also made them a toooooooooooon of money. Their first store bought mount made them millions in the first couple hours.

Espeically if some of the money goes back into stuff like improving the game, future x-pacs, possibly customer support, something similar would be nice for ffxi.

I've played a lot of mmos, I've never seen one mmo that added more content after adding a cash shop (Wow, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC etc). They make more money but it does not go back into the development of the game, if anything it gets less money going back into the game. The game turns into a reason to keep people around to buy cash shop items (like a shopping mall adding plants and seats etc) instead of keeping people around to play and enjoy the game.

A) they put more effort into making cash shop items over all else
B) they seem to lose respect for the players and see them as nothing but sheep after a cash shop is added
C) they start pushing the boundries with the cash shop to see how far they can push it, and this is a long way because there are always a lot of people that want xp boosts and content lockout removals
C) actual game development becomes a factor in cash shop sales, shall they add this new mount that looks cool and detracts from the cash shop mounts? hmm no put that new mount in the cash shop and make a lesser looking one for content reward.

There is no world where a cash shop is a good thing for an mmo unless it's near death and it's the only way to save it from closing, even then it damages it to the point an avid fan may not like what it devolves into.

As was said, when FFXI was at it's most profitable they took most of the money it was making and fed it into FFXIV. They also took away ffxi devs to work on it, these 2 things along with releasing an mmo directly competing with it led to this games major decline. So if you really think anything they do will improve the game you should think again. It's never that simple.

[Stompa]

Every thread has its obvious troll, I probably shouldnt bite, but I will.
Some people have played this game for many years and not all are people who have no life with every obtainable piece of gear out there. And no its not about seeing others buying X piece of gear with rl money for which themselves have worked so hard for... xi with a cashshop just wouldnt be xi. XI has many years on the counter without a cashshop i'd prefer it as it is cause little chance the money will be used on the game itself.
Also dont forget those "Pathetic people" you are referring too also are the ones who pay a sub for the same content you are playing, which deems you equally pathetic (you even get extra pathetic points for insulting everyone who has a heart for this game, maybe you can go spend them at your nearest cash shop).

I like the way that was their first post on the forums, they created a new forum account, and in their very first paragraph they call other players ; "pathetic" & "fools" & "moaning" & "dregs" !

Also they miss the point, the immersive online game / cybernetic ecology / virtual world - in terms of being atmospheric and believable & a "living breathing world" - the point is that all forms of entertainment ; books, plays, movies, games - these all require something called "a willing suspension of disbelief." This basically means that you have to be able to remove yourself from cynicism and your Earthly surroundings, and allow the medium to absorb you and take you to another place. If the book/movie/game is very good, this will help to draw you in, but it still requires a certain open mindedness on the part of the viewer, to be able to let go and accept the movie or game or w/e as a possible real world. Suspend your disbelief, and allow the medium to give you new beliefs, just for a few hours. This is what all imagination and fantasy work, and role playing has always been about.

I don't see why the "real" world is more enticing than Vanadiel anyway, the real world is traffic jams to drive in, dishes to wash, jobs to work etc. I find that world less worthy of my belief, than a world with knights in shining armor who battle ferocious dragons. I can choose where to place my belief, and I choose RPGs over Earth any day. But that is only my opinion, and I would never call people with other opinions, those bad words that the troll just did.

[Comeatmebro]

putting down others for being enthusiastic about their hobbies just reveals your own lack of self confidence

go back to high school if you want to bully people, your antics won't upset any adults

[Finuve]

I'm not trying to bully anyone i just seen a bunch of nerds fawing on the ff14 fan fest twitch.tv i was forced to watch and i'm sure it's going to be more of the same in London on the weekend.

Also 11 is on it's last legs the server population is at an all time low and yet you still have people on here claiming it's a "living breathing world" it's just pathetic and i really fear for those kind of peoples safety once the game finally shuts down.

I took a step back recently and stopped playing as much and it really is sad to see how serious some people take this game and i honestly hope the servers shut down within the next year.you expect these people not to be passionate about something they have been involved in for 5-12 years? You're delusional. You are also ridiculous for thinking these people can't handle normal life without XI.

With every single modern MMO being absolute $%&! its not surprising to see people clinging to XI and being passionate about whats still there, that doesnt mean once it actually dies these people will be suicidal, they just will probably quit playing MMOs, find another hobby, have a few nostalgia trips on message boards.

[Blazeoffury]

I agree it really is time for the game to be given an end date. It has gotten old stale, boring. Watching the playerbase wank themselves silly over redoing af/relic armor to 119 it's time for this old dog to be taken out back and given the old yellow treatment.

[Pixela]

I agree it really is time for the game to be given an end date. It has gotten old stale, boring. Watching the playerbase wank themselves silly over redoing af/relic armor to 119 it's time for this old dog to be taken out back and given the old yellow treatment.

These games rarely ever shut down until they become totally unprofitable, given that ffxi still has a large playerbase that's not going to happen for a long time.

They don't just wake up one day and decide to close them, there won't be an end date simply because you think it's stale. If you don't like what the game is then why are you here? There are still more than enough people around to keep ffxi running for a long time (especially in Japan), it may even outlive XIV...at least as a p2p title.

[Blazeoffury]

Well with the state of the na servers right now i wonder how long it is until it becomes unprofitable to sustain na gms, na translation teams etc sure you maybe right about the game living for a long while yet in Japan at least they still have solid numbers online the na/eu not so much and sooner or later they will pull the plug on it.

[Pixela]

There are really no NA teams as such, there are JP and there are English speaking. NA and EU has more than enough players to sustain the minor costs for a small GM/CS team (which work on XI and XIV btw).

The costs for this game are in the dev teams salaries, little else is noteworthy. The "gms" are just customer service agents, the old GM teams are pretty much gone. Cs agents aren't exactly high paid staff.

[Stompa]

I agree it really is time for the game to be given an end date. It has gotten old stale, boring. Watching the playerbase wank themselves silly over redoing af/relic armor to 119 it's time for this old dog to be taken out back and given the old yellow treatment.

In my office here are ZX Spectrums, ZX80s, C64s, Amstrads and Amigas, all built/bought by me in the 1980s. Also are around 500 cassette/disk games that are from the 1980s. Some of those games are still Cult Games, with fanclubs and active players - after 30 years. FFXI being online and actively updated for 12 years is an achievement, for sure. But 12 years is nothing if you are talking about players wanting to play the game.

If people like me are still playing 2D platformers and fractal games from 1983, and there are fanclubs full of players still enjoying these extremely simple and linear and depthless games after more than 30 years, what makes you think that game fans will not want to play a far more interesting and massive-depth game like FFXI, after only 12 years? FFXI has far more content and is a lot more fun to play than those 30 year old games, so what makes you think it won't have fans in ten years from now?

[Blazeoffury]

I'm sure fans like you will always exist i'm not going to deny that but this is an mmo, i guess they might have 1 na server then for people like you to play on but with how good ff14 is getting now and it's only going to improve i expect more of us to jump to 14 in the end.

[Comeatmebro]

same run-on sentences, attempt to use words above your education level, server, and 'if i can't enjoy it, you guys need to stop enjoying it' attitude

why bother posting on 2 accounts, it's transparent and nobody really cares

[Stompa]

I'm sure fans like you will always exist i'm not going to deny that but this is an mmo, i guess they might have 1 na server then for people like you to play on but with how good ff14 is getting now and it's only going to improve i expect more of us to jump to 14 in the end.

Seriously, if you enjoy FF14, that makes me totally happy. I really hope you have a great time playing it. Same with all games, and all players, I hope they find joy in their favourite games. 14 is a good game, it is just not my type of game.

The point here is that Lsd25 and yourself, are coming to the forum to say you hope this game dies. Lsd25 went further and said that gamers playing these games are fools and losers etc., and that he feels they are mentally ill enough to jump off bridges if the game stops running. These are bitter and toxic things to go around saying about people who just enjoy playing a computergame after work or school.

These are just insulting things to say, and I personally question your motivation, why would you take the time to come to a forum for a game you don't even like and say you want the game to die, and just flame the players and insult those attending Fan Events too.

I personally don't enjoy fishing, or golfing. But I don't go to Golf Forums and Fishing Forums and call the people there fools and losers and w/e, and say I hope their game dies soon. If they enjoy their game, thats great - I'm happy for them lol.

What surprises me is that this thread about basically having a cash-for-items system, people arrived in the thread and started all this player-hating stuff, and "we hope the game dies soon" stuff, which is totally off topic 100% and also not really a sign of a healthy mind. I like FFXI, when it is available I will pay for it. Other people like other games, I hope they enjoy those games. New games will arrive with better graphics and better playability than FFXI, but so long as this game is even available on a single server for die hard fans, I will pay for it, because I am a big fan of this game. I know a lot of other people who feel the same. If it stops existing, I will raise a glass of fine scotch, and toast the end of a great game. And then I will go play new games, or some of my back catalogue lol.

But at no point have I ever wished for any game to fail, or die ASAP, nor have I gone out of my way to insult the fans of games or try to make them feel bad just because they have a hobby they feel great affection for.

[Afania]

Another FF14 fanboy I see. I've been wondering why 14 fanboy often has strong hatred toward this game that they must kept trying to convince others to quit.

[Pixela]

I'm sure fans like you will always exist i'm not going to deny that but this is an mmo, i guess they might have 1 na server then for people like you to play on but with how good ff14 is getting now and it's only going to improve i expect more of us to jump to 14 in the end.

I've played pretty much every mmo there is, I still came back to ffxi after a 2 year break from FFXI after playing them.

FFXI still offers something these other "pretty" mmo titles don't, they are all pretty much WoW in disguise. If you dont' want to play that kinda of game then you won't want to play a ff skinned version of it. All those other titles have one major failing, they are dungeon grinders and very little else.

FFXIV hasn't been shown to have many more players than FFXI had at peak, and yes I've looked at subscription numbers given for both games. FFXIV barely bettered FFXI peak subscriber numbers.

[Blazeoffury]

Ok i'm done here. If you think ffxi is going to keep going then fine, I think 14 will keep on taking players the better it gets and that's all i have to say, carry on with your crying over a possible vaniety shop.

[Seillan]

same run-on sentences, attempt to use words above your education level, server, and 'if i can't enjoy it, you guys need to stop enjoying it' attitude

why bother posting on 2 accounts, it's transparent and nobody really cares

Haha, I was thinking this too. They also "both" just happen to be on the same server too with next to no prior post count...

I'm surprised he didn't like his own posts :p. Talk about a "dreg of society."

[Seillan]

Ok i'm done here. If you think ffxi is going to keep going then fine, I think 14 will keep on taking players the better it gets and that's all i have to say, carry on with your crying over a possible vaniety shop.

And nothing of value was lost that day.

[Pixela]

Ok i'm done here. If you think ffxi is going to keep going then fine, I think 14 will keep on taking players the better it gets and that's all i have to say, carry on with your crying over a possible vaniety shop.

Apples and oranges, it's never going to get better than it is. It will just add more of the same kinda of content that most xi players don't like. Dungeon grinding, over and over and over...and little else. FFXI is made to appeal to players that like everquest type systems in a ff skin, FFXIV is made to appeal to players that want a wow type system with a ff skin. If you don't like the wow style of mmo then you will never want to play XIV long term.

Square want both games to run and be profitable, FFXI gets more updates than XIV does for a reason. XIV was never meant to replace XI, they were always meant to run side by side and attract different audiences or for the players to play both. Which is why you can finish all your weekly content on XIV in a weekend and have nothing left to do for the rest of the week.

You talk like most of us haven't played other mmo titles and we don't know about XIV or something, many of us have played it and/or other titles and left it behind as unsatisfactory. XIV players have this mindset that they can show us the light and we will all quit and play their game. No we aren't ignorant to the game, we just don't like it.

[Comeatmebro]

His post on this page was actually trying to save it, some crap like.. 'if you had any brain youd know i switched to my main because people thought i was trolling'. Guess he realized how stupid that sounded and edited it.

[Blazeoffury]

No i just couldn't be bothered to fight with you over it so i edited it but as you want to bring it up i'll happily repeat it for you.

There is no winning with you people because if i post on a level 1 char it's considered trolling regardless if what i said is how i feel, so i signed onto my main char and continued on to then have someone as "smart" as you point out that it was stilll me, well no fucking shit Sherlock that's exactly why i logged onto this account.

[Seillan]

I love seeing a troll get humiliated by being caught in an act like this. There is seriously no greater satisfaction. The desperate backpedaling only makes it better, lol.

[Blazeoffury]

I love seeing a troll get humiliated by being caught in an act like this. There is seriously no greater satisfaction. The desperate backpedaling only makes it better, lol.

Omg lol caught in the act. I signed onto my main account so people would stop with the trolling comments you dolt. My points still stand and i stand by them, people are crying over a possible vaniety shop, it's not pay to win who cares. The game is on it's way out a little bit slower than i would personally like but anyone who denys this is in complete denial about the server numbers and a lot of the rehashed content we are getting, not all content but a lot is rehashed. The way some of the fans were acting at the 14 fan fest was cringe worthy at best and down right creepy at worst.

[Zephrose]

Honestly, FFXI would benefit from adding a Cash Shop. People already buy enough gil on the servers as it is, whether they admit to it or not. By adding a shop, it would cut the middle man and allow you to get the advantage you've been looking for.

Yeah, some people might think that's absurd and totally plays to the rich, but have you ever played any mobile games lately? A couple come to mind such as Puzzle and Dragons and Brave Frontier. Yeah, you can go about playing the games legitimately and say how cool you are for doing it. But who has the time for that any more. If I spend just a few dollars to give me a boost to completion, I'd take that in a heart beat. I mean really, who wants to waste a minimum of 5 months on completing a Mythic anymore, especially if they have a limited time to play in the first place.

Vanity and Promotional items are a given for the shop. But adding a shop to help out in those crunch times would be fantastic.

[Dale]

No i just couldn't be bothered to fight with you over it so i edited it but as you want to bring it up i'll happily repeat it for you.

There is no winning with you people because if i post on a level 1 char it's considered a troll regardless if what i said is how i feel, so i signed onto my main char and continued on to then have someone as "smart" as you point out that it was stilll me, well no fucking shit Sherlock that's exactly why i logged onto this account.

Posting on a level 1 character is not an example of trolling I agree. There is a tendency on forums to pile on when weakness is sensed. It's that pack dog mentality and always happens when a lot of animals congregate (yes, people are still animals in my estimation). But your posts are needlessly hostile. But that's ok. I can take it.

But I like to think Final Fantasy 14 will never replace Final Fantasy 11 because they are two fundamentally different games. 14 is more like an arcade-type game - as was described so aptly by another poster - where as Final Fantasy 11 retains at least some of the genre's traditional roots.

That being said though: it's impossible to deny that Final Fantasy 14 has hurt Final Fantasy 11's population. The game was an absolute ghost town shortly after its re-release. Though many players have left Final Fantasy 14 and returned home (I am one of them).

But it's likely many of us still have friends who play 14 and that will remain an incentive for some of us to back regardless of how lacking we find the game. In truth: I really do think the ideal solution would be to combine both games into a single subscription plan. I think it would benefit both games to do so. Just to be clear though:

14 is a shameless copy-cat of World of Warcraft. That's all it is. WoW with moogles. And SE frankly should be ashamed of it. But those are just my opinions :)

Anyway - the cash shop is a bad idea. No one wants Pay-to-Win and it would alienate far more players than it would attract. Cosmetic items I suppose could be thought of as a harmless gesture to boost revenue. A lot of us including myself wouldn't like it. But I doubt anyone would quit over it as long as it stayed purely cosmetic.

[Finuve]

Honestly, FFXI would benefit from adding a Cash Shop. People already buy enough gil on the servers as it is, whether they admit to it or not. By adding a shop, it would cut the middle man and allow you to get the advantage you've been looking for.

Yeah, some people might think that's absurd and totally plays to the rich, but have you ever played any mobile games lately? A couple come to mind such as Puzzle and Dragons and Brave Frontier. Yeah, you can go about playing the games legitimately and say how cool you are for doing it. But who has the time for that any more. If I spend just a few dollars to give me a boost to completion, I'd take that in a heart beat. I mean really, who wants to waste a minimum of 5 months on completing a Mythic anymore, especially if they have a limited time to play in the first place.

Vanity and Promotional items are a given for the shop. But adding a shop to help out in those crunch times would be fantastic.everything you said sounds awful (including sold vanity gear), and I still havent gotten my relic past 95.

[Seillan]

Omg lol caught in the act. I signed onto my main account so people would stop with the trolling comments you dolt. My points still stand and i stand by them, people are crying over a possible vaniety shop, it's not pay to win who cares. The game is on it's way out a little bit slower than i would personally like but anyone who denys this is in complete denial about the server numbers and a lot of the rehashed content we are getting, not all content but a lot is rehashed. The way some of the fans were acting at the 14 fan fest was cringe worthy at best and down right creepy at worst.

Ah, so people that switch accounts so they won't be accused of trolling tend to use that account to agree with themselves as if they're different people, or did you forget you posted this gem?


I agree it really is time for the game to be given an end date. It has gotten old stale, boring. Watching the playerbase wank themselves silly over redoing af/relic armor to 119 it's time for this old dog to be taken out back and given the old yellow treatment.

Haha, this is just too effing good. Please, keep it coming. /popcorn

[Blazeoffury]

Yeah so what ? As i said you dolt i switched to my main so i could post without the trolling accusations and it was pretty obvious to anyone reading the whole topic it was me. Don't worry i'll write a disclaimer next time and say it's me.

I'm admitting it was me, I would have just denied it flat out if i was trying to hide it you funny little creature.

This is also really quite funny becuase you are doing the same thing you disagree with posting on a low level account to hide who you really are whilst trying to cause trouble but again none of it bothers me it just further proves to me why i pretty much destest the kind of people who play mmos.

[Seillan]

Yeah so what ? As i said you dolt i switched to my main so i could post without the trolling accusations and it was pretty obvious to anyone reading the whole topic it was me. Don't worry i'll write a disclaimer next time and say it's me.

I'm admitting it was me, I would have just denied it flat out if i was trying to hide it you funny little creature.

This is also really quite funny becuase you are doing the same thing you disagree with posting on a low level account to hide who you really are whilst trying to cause trouble but again none of it bothers me it just further proves to me why i pretty much destest the kind of people who play mmos.

You only admit it because you got caught. You're not very bright are you?

And no, I'm not posting on a low level account. This is my only active FFXI account and as such, I'm posting on it. I'm not so pathetic that I need to troll on alt accounts to give my opinions some sense of validation.

Keep it coming though, really. Each one of your posts makes your initial "dregs of society" comment that much more ironic :p.

[Zephrose]

everything you said sounds awful (including sold vanity gear), and I still havent gotten my relic past 95.

One line replies like this are very constructive to conversations such as this. I commend your critical thinking and focus to this thread.

On topic though, why WOULD a Shop be a good or bad thing to have around? Honestly, who still plays this game long enough to get anything come? You have to play for at least three hours daily to get anything important done. That includes logging in, running around town, doing the event(s) you wanted to touch, and then settling down to log off. Who has time from this any more?

[Dale]

One line replies like this are very constructive to conversations such as this. I commend your critical thinking and focus to this thread.

On topic though, why WOULD a Shop be a good or bad thing to have around? Honestly, who still plays this game long enough to get anything come? You have to play for at least three hours daily to get anything important done. That includes logging in, running around town, doing the event(s) you wanted to touch, and then settling down to log off. Who has time from this any more?

If you don't have time to play an MMORPG though the better solution would be just not to play one. Not to play one anyway and then ask a shop be opened up so you can buy all of the progress you don't have time for.

That's like joining a football team but saying I don't have time for practice so let me buy my touchdowns. How do you think the other players on the team putting in all those hard hours practicing would feel about that?

[Seillan]

If you don't have time to play an MMO though the better solution would be just not to play one. Not to play one anyway and then ask a shop be opened up so you can buy all of the progress you don't have time for.

That's like joining a football team but saying I don't have time for practice so let me buy my touchdowns. How do you think the other players on the team putting in all those hard hours practicing would feel about that?

Exactly. That "Who has time for this any more?" type of reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me in the context of an mmorpg. These games are designed to take time; that's part of the draw. I have limited time too these days, but I enjoy the time I'm able to get something accomplished in game, even if it's only little by little. The last thing I'd ever want to see was the ability to just take out my credit card and buy everything that I was too lazy to earn myself. If that's what you ("You" being general for those that would prefer buying their progress) want, this genre doesn't seem like the best fit for you.

[Dale]

Exactly. That "Who has time for this any more?" type of reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me in the context of an mmorpg. These games are designed to take time; that's part of the draw. I have limited time too these days, but I enjoy the time I'm able to get something accomplished in game, even if it's only little by little. The last thing I'd ever want to see was the ability to just take out my credit card and buy everything that I was too lazy to earn myself. If that's what you ("You" being general for those that would prefer buying their progress) want, this genre doesn't seem like the best fit for you.

It doesn't make any sense to me either so you're not alone.

[Zephrose]

If you don't have time to play an MMORPG though the better solution would be just not to play one. Not to play one anyway and then ask a shop be opened up so you can buy all of the progress you don't have time for.

That's like joining a football team but saying I don't have time for practice so let me buy my touchdowns. How do you think the other players on the team putting in all those hard hours practicing would feel about that?

That's one way to think about it. However, marketing in games does not think about it that way. They could care less about your practice and more about your touchdowns. So instead of giving you the touchdowns, they give you the boost to perform the touchdown and still make you feel like you've done well within the game. Some players might think that's cheeky, and for sure it is, but not everyone has the same dedication to put into the game. They want to enjoy it, but in a different way.

One way to think of it in this case, how does this give an advantage to other players? Does them getting the item over you hurt your odds at getting the item? Does them getting the boost make them more likely to get stuff done over you? I haven't found an answer to either of these questions to prove them getting any help would make them "Better" than you.

If this was a PvP based game, I might think differently. However, it is not such and any external growth to your own does not effect you.

[Deirdre]

Goodness, look at the firestorm I started by phrasing something as "a living, breathing world" before I went to bed.

Not that it matters, but just to clarify, I am very aware that Vana'diel isn't real, to the poster who was so deeply concerned for my mental health. But I've been playing FFXIV, which is a pure themepark game. Ie, you log in, get your gear, get out with no real impetus (not the monk JA) to explore around or do anything else but the latest event. That's fine, that's how themeparks are. XI, in contrast, IS designed to be as close to a second home, or even "a living world" by MMO standards, a more sandbox game that allowed you to find something to do the majority of the time, even if the event wasn't new. Hopefully that clarifies my mental health :)

[Dale]

That's one way to think about it. However, marketing in games does not think about it that way. They could care less about your practice and more about your touchdowns. So instead of giving you the touchdowns, they give you the boost to perform the touchdown and still make you feel like you've done well within the game. Some players might think that's cheeky, and for sure it is, but not everyone has the same dedication to put into the game. They want to enjoy it, but in a different way.

One way to think of it in this case, how does this give an advantage to other players? Does them getting the item over you hurt your odds at getting the item? Does them getting the boost make them more likely to get stuff done over you? I haven't found an answer to either of these questions to prove them getting any help would make them "Better" than you.

If this was a PvP based game, I might think differently. However, it is not such and any external growth to your own does not effect you.

It may not be PvP-based, but there are PvP activities. Not to mention there are other types of competition outside of direct PvP - such as competition for monsters etc. where advantages bought from cash shops could certainly come into play. But anyway - I was never trying to frame the debate in terms of the semantics regarding the word advantage.

From a marketing perspective - if a game wants to advertise itself as a pay-to-win style game then that is fine. But that is quite a different matter than to later implement it in on a game where this style of play was never expected or marketed as. A game where players have already spent enormous amounts of time to gather the best equipment only to find out later they could have simply donated some of their paycheck for the week to acquire it. That is almost like a slap in the face. No let me rephrase. That is a slap in the face.

So in other words: I guess what I'm simply saying to you is if a person enjoys that style of game and wants to play a pay-to-win game they should go out and buy a pay-to-win game. Not buy Final Fantasy XI and then ask for it to be turned into a pay-to-win game just to suit them.

[Stompa]

No i just couldn't be bothered to fight with you over it so i edited it but as you want to bring it up i'll happily repeat it for you.

There is no winning with you people because if i post on a level 1 char it's considered trolling regardless if what i said is how i feel, so i signed onto my main char and continued on to then have someone as "smart" as you point out that it was stilll me, well no fucking shit Sherlock that's exactly why i logged onto this account.

Not true, if you posted on a level one char with its very first Post Number One, and wrote some positive constructive feedback / criticisms, my reply would have been "welcome to the Forums" etc. and I would have replied to the salient points you made in your post in a friendly adult manner, as between equals. The reason you got called a troll is because that account had zero posts, and with your very first post you called fans of this game "dregs" and "fools" etc. That is the classic definition of troll, they are literally flame-spewing on their very first post. Like "I only made this account to post this tirade of bitterness on post number one," lol.

Back on topic though, and being as I am in two ancient linkshells founded in 2004, along with some newer linkshells, I can confirm that none of the established playerbase wants to see Creditcard Leapfrogging added to this game. I feel certain that SE would lose a lot of subscriptions if they added a direct pay-cash-for RME / content clears type of system. FFXI has been changed a lot over the years, but it has never been changed in such a fundamental drastic way. Giving people trusts and homepoint warps and sparks, is not the same as giving them a system where they can use Daddy's mastercard to buy Mythics or w/e. Just listening to the chatter on my LS's, I think the game would lose a lot of loyal fans if this change came to pass. Because it would fundamentally change the FFXI effort-reward structure, and thus make it a different game entirely. So SE would have to balance out the income from selling core content wins/gear, with the money they will lose when the actual play-games-on-legitmode people walk out in disgust.

But again, I don't mind people getting special event stuff like Tidal Talisman etc. I havent used my Talisman at all since the Nashmau home-point-warp was added lol, and I used that body to warp for years before the HP-nexus system arrived. These are fun quirky gift items and I think SE should add them to the management page for purchase. But no currencies / content progress / serious items, because that would upset players who spent years working on those things.

[Zephrose]

It may not be PvP-based, but there are PvP activities. Not to mention there are other types of competition outside of direct PvP - such as competition for monsters etc. where advantages bought from cash shops could certainly come into play. But anyway - I was never trying to frame the debate in terms of the semantics regarding the word advantage.

From a marketing perspective - if a game wants to advertise itself as a pay-to-win style game then that is fine. But that is quite a different matter than to later implement it in on a game where this style of play was never expected or marketed as. A game where players have already spent enormous amounts of time to gather the best equipment only to find out later they could have simply donated some of their paycheck for the week to acquire it. That is almost like a slap in the face. No let me rephrase. That is a slap in the face.

So in other words: I guess what I'm simply saying to you is if a person enjoys that style of game and wants to play a pay-to-win game they should go out and buy a pay-to-win game. Not buy Final Fantasy XI and then ask for it to be turned into a pay-to-win game just to suit them.

Thank you for your point of view. And I agree, there are other parts of the game that could be considered competitive but in my observation and 12year knowledge of that game, there would be little obstruction to a player receiving such boosts... If SE were to implement the scaling right.

I also believe there is a lot of ambiguity to the "Cash Shop" idea from the player perspective. Just because there is going to be a shop that allows player to get items, does not mean these items will give the same intense advantage players are making them out to give. A good example of over reacting can be seen in the AA weapons, GK and Scythe. Yes they allow the wielder to use the respective WS but they still have to work for those WS in skill and their stats are no combat relevant.

To touch on the Play-to-win style of gaming. I never came in here asking for it nor did I specify how boosts or products would effect players. I simply stated in my first post that it would be a neat idea and gave a couple ideas of what I thought would be cool to see from it. If the shop is pure novelty, it wont change my perspective on the game.

[Dale]

Thank you for your point of view. And I agree, there are other parts of the game that could be considered competitive but in my observation and 12year knowledge of that game, there would be little obstruction to a player receiving such boosts... If SE were to implement the scaling right.

I also believe there is a lot of ambiguity to the "Cash Shop" idea from the player perspective. Just because there is going to be a shop that allows player to get items, does not mean these items will give the same intense advantage players are making them out to give. A good example of over reacting can be seen in the AA weapons, GK and Scythe. Yes they allow the wielder to use the respective WS but they still have to work for those WS in skill and their stats are no combat relevant.

To touch on the Play-to-win style of gaming. I never came in here asking for it nor did I specify how boosts or products would effect players. I simply stated in my first post that it would be a neat idea and gave a couple ideas of what I thought would be cool to see from it. If the shop is pure novelty, it wont change my perspective on the game.

My last points were meant generally. I was never accusing you of wanting to see Pay-to-Win on FF XI. Since you felt the need to defend yourself about that I should point that out.

A novelty shop would annoy me. I won't lie about that because I feel the money I pay each month should be sufficient and grant me equal access to all the content. So if they were to start adding exclusive items players can shop for on the side for it would feel like a lame gimmick to me.

The only way I could ever support something like that is if the items were purely cosmetic in nature and the developers swore an oath that all proceeds from it would go directly into development and not extra drinks in the bar after work. I would also need to see immediate results as well to confirm they were telling the truth. Then I might could hold my nose and support it.

[Dale]

Goodness, look at the firestorm I started by phrasing something as "a living, breathing world" before I went to bed.

Not that it matters, but just to clarify, I am very aware that Vana'diel isn't real, to the poster who was so deeply concerned for my mental health. But I've been playing FFXIV, which is a pure themepark game. Ie, you log in, get your gear, get out with no real impetus (not the monk JA) to explore around or do anything else but the latest event. That's fine, that's how themeparks are. XI, in contrast, IS designed to be as close to a second home, or even "a living world" by MMO standards, a more sandbox game that allowed you to find something to do the majority of the time, even if the event wasn't new. Hopefully that clarifies my mental health :)

I agree with you. So if you are mentally insane so am I.

FF XI is immersive and draws me into the environments as if I were there. Where as on Final Fantasy 14 I feel like I'm just rushing from point A to point B over and over again just so I can say I'm done. There is no sense of a living world as you described it.

The graphics on 14 may be sharper and more colorful. But if all I want is better graphics I'll simply walk outside. I live near a national park with waterfalls, rivers and mountains. What truly matters is a game's ability to hold my attention and allow me to escape into a different world I care about being in. And 11 does this far better than 14 does.

[Zephrose]

My last points were meant generally. I was never accusing you of wanting to see Pay-to-Win on FF XI. Since you felt the need to defend yourself about that I should point that out.

A novelty shop would annoy me. I won't lie about that because I feel the money I pay each month should be sufficient and grant me equal access to all the content. So if they were to start adding exclusive items players can shop for on the side for it would feel like a lame gimmick to me.

The only way I could ever support something like that is if the items were purely cosmetic in nature and the developers swore an oath that all proceeds from it would go directly into development and not extra drinks in the bar after work. I would also need to see immediate results as well to confirm they were telling the truth. Then I might could hold my nose and support it.

I assume you find the Tidal Talisman (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11290/tidal-talisman), Moogle Cap (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/16118/moogle-cap), Nomad Cap (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/16119/nomad-cap), etc... are all gimmicks too? These are all purchased items you can't get anywhere else other than the purchased ticket or Real world merchandise. What if they were to add more of these like item to the game for a fee? Would it be any different? Sounds more like your argument to the idea is out of jealousy rather than practicality.

Another point I was subtly trying to make is Time is Money. If I can justify paying for an item that would equate to the time spent getting it, I will pay for the item in time up front. Because as we all know, Time equals Money, right? So why can't I just give my time in advance?

[Dale]

I assume you find the Tidal Talisman (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11290/tidal-talisman), Moogle Cap (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/16118/moogle-cap), Nomad Cap (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/16119/nomad-cap), etc... are all gimmicks too? These are all purchased items you can't get anywhere else other than the purchased ticket or Real world merchandise. What if they were to add more of these like item to the game for a fee? Would it be any different? Sounds more like your argument to the idea is out of jealousy rather than practicality.

Another point I was subtly trying to make is Time is Money. If I can justify paying for an item that would equate to the time spent getting it, I will pay for the item in time up front. Because as we all know, Time equals Money, right? So why can't I just give my time in advance?

Yes, you are right Zephrose. I am jealous of the moogle cap. You have figured me out. :p

Sarcasm aside, a gimmick is just a trick to make money. I think the term applies. And even if you do not, that certainly doesn't make me jealous.

Anyway: I already explained this. This game was not sold as a pay-to-win game. It would be a slap in the face to players who spent vast amounts of time and effort to acquire the best gear only to let players buy it with some of their pay-check and skip all of that hard work.

As I said earlier: if someone feels they don't have the necessary time to play a game then they simply shouldn't play it. That makes a lot more sense then playing the game then asking for the developers to let them buy what other players have just because they don't have the time to put in the same effort.

[Seillan]

Another point I was subtly trying to make is Time is Money. If I can justify paying for an item that would equate to the time spent getting it, I will pay for the item in time up front. Because as we all know, Time equals Money, right? So why can't I just give my time in advance?

If this is seriously how you want to "play" (and I use that word very loosely here) an online game, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of F2P grinders and facebook games that would gladly accommodate you and your wallet. Let XI be one of the last games with some integrity and without a nickel and diming philosophy for those of us that prefer actually playing the game and earning the rewards we get.

[Dale]

If this is seriously how you want to "play" (and I use that word very loosely here) an online game, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of F2P grinders and facebook games that would gladly accommodate you and your wallet. Let XI be one of the last games with some integrity and without a nickel and diming philosophy for those of us that prefer actually playing the game and earning the rewards we get.

Exactly. There are plenty of pay-win-games out there on the market. There is no good reason to bring it here also.

Diversity and options is good for any market place.

[Poo]

If this is seriously how you want to "play" (and I use that word very loosely here) an online game, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of F2P grinders and facebook games that would gladly accommodate you and your wallet. Let XI be one of the last games with some integrity and without a nickel and diming philosophy for those of us that prefer actually playing the game and earning the rewards we get.

*slow clap*

[Zephrose]

If this is seriously how you want to "play" (and I use that word very loosely here) an online game, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of F2P grinders and facebook games that would gladly accommodate you and your wallet. Let XI be one of the last games with some integrity and without a nickel and diming philosophy for those of us that prefer actually playing the game and earning the rewards we get.

If you don't believe you're being nickle and dimmed as of now for playing the game, you are delusional. The game charges you 12.99 a month for something that is hardly of value any more. Hell, I know players that are paying more then that just to get more log-in points/goods. Is that not the same things but in a different way? Essentially you are paying 12.99 a month for a single character to purchase items with log-in points. Is that hard work? Is that truly in-game effort to get something spectacular? You can look at it in different ways really. The Cash Shop approach just puts everything up front and available in a different venue.


Exactly. There are plenty of pay-win-games out there on the market. There is no good reason to bring it here also.

Diversity and options is good for any market place.

Yeah, I understand there are plenty of pay-to-win games out there. But I disagree on "There is no good reason to bring it here also". I would think quite the opposite to this in fact. I'm sure players would love it more than you'd think. Just because there are a handful of you here saying "No, please no..." doesn't mean others are not silently cheering on SE to implement it. Like Abyssea, I believe the shop would add another good facet to this game that players can leverage.

Diversity is good in the market place yes, but why not apply within something that already exists? Just a little effort is needed to get it off the ground. :)

[Stompa]

Essentially you are paying 12.99 a month for a single character to purchase items with log-in points.

No lol. You're paying 12.99 monthly subs for all of Vanadiel. An immersive online world, full of fun quests, epic missions, a very playable core battle engine, crafting, fishing, in-game friendships formed over many years, community fun. Etc. etc. etc.

The log in points were just another fun new system that were added to the package of experiences we call Vanadiel. Nobody was paying their main account just for log in points. We were paying for FFXI, and then log in points were added as a bonus. I would continue to pay subs if log in points stopped forever. So would everyone on my LS. So your idea that we are paying subs for log in points, and therefor we would all gladly have a cash shop, is madness.

How about all those people who spent years and years building RME, in pre ilvl grind with blood sweat and tears. Do you think they will be happy when some five year old kid buys that same RME with his dad's Visacard, in a five minute shopping process.

SE have made the game easier so you can farm those epic items on solo or in smaller groups. Surely that is enough of a concession, without making those items available in a one click shopping visit.

SE have already added ilvl 119 weapons and armor in the game which you can obtain fairly easily, and at low cost. This means that all players can have ilvl 119 weapons and armor, without feeling they need to spend ages farming RME items and currencies. There is no need for players to get RME to be useful in events. There is no need for players to buy gil, breaking the Rules of the game, and cheating the ingame role playing system, just to take part in the game at 119 standard.

Buying gil is cheating, you are playing a character in a RPG world, that character has to craft and farm and contribute to the Vanadiel economy, in order to obtain the exclusive legendary RME items. Buying gil opens a portal between that atmospheric roleplaying world, and the world of Earthly currencies. In real terms it is as though your character mysteriously got many millions of gil appear out of nowhere, without working for that money in the roleplaying game setting. This totally devalues the roleplaying game system. A cash shop would be the same, but without the official recognition that this process is cheating. Imo that would kill the game stone dead.

Again I agree with making Gift/ Event costumes like Tidal etc available again for more people, I paid for it because I wanted the Tidal Pendant real world item. And my Tidal Pendant purchase never undermined the hard work and devotion that people have put into their RMEs, not did it undermine the realism of a roleplaying world where characters have to earn their own money without it magically appearing in sudden mountains of gil from outside Vanadiel. A Cash-for-serious-gear/currency shop would undermine the years of work people put into gearing their chars by actually playing the game with an rpg adventurer spirit. A cash shop would kill that adventurer spirit dead.

[Seillan]

No lol. You're paying 12.99 monthly subs for all of Vanadiel. An immersive online world, full of fun quests, epic missions, a very playable core battle engine, crafting, fishing, in-game friendships formed over many years, community fun. Etc. etc. etc.

The log in points were just another fun new system that were added to the package of experiences we call Vanadiel. Nobody was paying their main account just for log in points. We were paying for FFXI, and then log in points were added as a bonus. I would continue to pay subs if log in points stopped forever. So would everyone on my LS. So your idea that we are paying subs for log in points, and therefor we would all gladly have a cash shop, is madness.

How about all those people who spent years and years building RME, in pre ilvl grind with blood sweat and tears. Do you think they will be happy when some five year old kid buys that same RME with his dad's Visacard, in a five minute shopping process.

SE have made the game easier so you can farm those epic items on solo or in smaller groups. Surely that is enough of a concession, without making those items available in a one click shopping visit.

SE have already added ilvl 119 weapons and armor in the game which you can obtain fairly easily, and at low cost. This means that all players can have ilvl 119 weapons and armor, without feeling they need to spend ages farming RME items and currencies. There is no need for players to get RME to be useful in events. There is no need for players to buy gil, breaking the Rules of the game, and cheating the ingame role playing system, just to take part in the game at 119 standard.

Buying gil is cheating, you are playing a character in a RPG world, that character has to craft and farm and contribute to the Vanadiel economy, in order to obtain the exclusive legendary RME items. Buying gil opens a portal between that atmospheric roleplaying world, and the world of Earthly currencies. In real terms it is as though your character mysteriously got manymillions of gil appear out of nowehere, without working for that money in the rpg setting. This totally devalues the roleplaying game system. A cash shop would be the same, but without the official recognition that this process is cheating. Imo that would kill the game stone dead.

Again I agree with making Gift/ Event costumes like Tidal etc available again for more people, I paid for it because I wanted the Tidal Pendant real world item. And my Tidal Pendant purchase never undermined the hard work and devotion that people have put into their RMEs, not did it undermine the realism of a roleplaying world where characters have to earn their own money without it magically appearing in sudden mountains of gil from outside Vanadiel. A Cash-for-serious-gear/currency shop would undermine the years of work people put into gearing their chars by actually playing the game with an rpg adventurer spirit. A cash shop would kill that adventurer spirit dead.

You said everything I was going to say and more, Stompa. To think that being charged a single monthly fee of a measly 13 dollars (which is two dollars less than just about any other subscription mmo, btw), for the hundreds or even thousands of hours worth of stuff to do in the game, somehow equates to "nickel and diming" is not only delusional (using your word here Zephrose) it's just plain silly, imo. Playing a subscription based mmorpg is one of the cheapest forms of entertainment and easily one of the best bangs for your buck that you can find -- and that's hardly arguable. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for online games that use micro-transaction systems that are designed to keep your wallet open at all times. Maybe that's what you want, but it sure as hell isn't what I -- nor I imagine what most other players of this game -- want.

[Zephrose]

Still don't think you understand the concept of time is money here but that's OK. Jealousy can make you do strange things at times.

And I still stand by my statement to the monthly payment. Yes you gain access to the full game, of course you do. But so do F2P games... Yes you have to pay for some extra resources but so do you in ffxi, it's called a subscription which gives you more time to play. The terms are different but in core fundamentals they are the same. They both allow you to play the game for a longer period and at the height of its enjoyment. Again, delusional...

So what if it's something I am suggesting. Not like the Devs will ever have plans to make it happen. :D

http://procrasti-nation.eu/wp-content/uploads/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg

[Stompa]

Still don't think you understand the concept of time is money here but that's OK. Jealousy can make you do strange things at times.


Time is time.

If you want to play FFXI with 119 gear you can do this without the ultra-exclusive gear. If you want to obtain this RME gear, you are accepting a Long Term Challenge. When you accept any challenge, you are accepting the rules of that challenge, as well as the known hardships involved in that challenge. Nobody is forcing you to do it. But if you choose to accept the challenge, you have to accept the rules of the challenge. In the case of RME that involves a large amount of time, if you are playing by the rules.

I've been on the HMP stage of my empy forever lol. But I keep chipping away at it. And one day when my empy is finished, I will rejoice and dance for joy. Because I accepted the challenge and I beat the challenge, I beat it on legit mode without cheating, even though it took me a LONG TIME lol. Playing by the rules and overcoming challenges is what being a gamer is all about.

:)

[Stompa]

You said everything I was going to say and more, Stompa. To think that being charged a single monthly fee of a measly 13 dollars (which is two dollars less than just about any other subscription mmo, btw), for the hundreds or even thousands of hours worth of stuff to do in the game, somehow equates to "nickel and diming" is not only delusional (using your word here Zephrose) it's just plain silly, imo. Playing a subscription based mmorpg is one of the cheapest forms of entertainment and easily one of the best bangs for your buck that you can find -- and that's hardly arguable. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for online games that use micro-transaction systems that are designed to keep your wallet open at all times. Maybe that's what you want, but it sure as hell isn't what I -- nor I imagine what most other players of this game -- want.

I totally agree, and you really make great points. Especially the "bang for your buck" part. I keep meeting FFXI players who used to spend so much money on alcohol, rave parties, sports event tickets and offical merchandise (lol). They were paying a fortune to basically wreck their health, or sit in stadiums watching some dudes in the far distance getting paid $quadrillions to toss a ball around. Then they discovered Vanadiel, and found that for just small payment per month, they could be entertained and excited and meet new friends all the time. I know people who have said Vanadiel saved their lives, it made them stop drinking or living reckless real-world lifestyles. And it gave them a hobby which was constructive and fun, for the price of a few beers per month.

[Zephrose]

Time is time.

If you want to play FFXI with 119 gear you can do this without the ultra-exclusive gear. If you want to obtain this RME gear, you are accepting a Long Term Challenge. When you accept any challenge, you are accepting the rules of that challenge, as well as the known hardships involved in that challenge. Nobody is forcing you to do it. But if you choose to accept the challenge, you have to accept the rules of the challenge. In the case of RME that involves a large amount of time, if you are playing by the rules.

I've been on the HMP stage of my empy forever lol. But I keep chipping away at it. And one day when my empy is finished, I will rejoice and dance for joy. Because I accepted the challenge and I beat the challenge, I beat it on legit mode without cheating, even though it took me a LONG TIME lol. Playing by the rules and overcoming challenges is what being a gamer is all about.

:)

Time is Time... you make me giggle... I can see why you're stuck on HMPs.

I mean, I'm not going to stop you from wasting your time.
http://rs1img.memecdn.com/The-time-you-enjoy-wasting-is-not-wasted-time_c_95219.jpg

[Seillan]

Still don't think you understand the concept of time is money here but that's OK. Jealousy can make you do strange things at times.

And I still stand by my statement to the monthly payment. Yes you gain access to the full game, of course you do. But so do F2P games... Yes you have to pay for some extra resources but so do you in ffxi, it's called a subscription which gives you more time to play. The terms are different but in core fundamentals they are the same. They both allow you to play the game for a longer period and at the height of its enjoyment. Again, delusional...

So what if it's something I am suggesting. Not like the Devs will ever have plans to make it happen. :D

http://procrasti-nation.eu/wp-content/uploads/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg

Ha, jealousy. Yes, I'm jealous of people that need to throw money at any obstacle they face in life because they lack the fortitude to accomplish something the hard way like the rest of us -- or simply because they're effing lazy. Makes perfect sense.

And you'd have a point if both models were actually equal, which is rarely, if ever, the case. If you think that a "piece meal" RMT model is going to give you a better deal -- or hell, even an equal one -- compared to a flat rate subscription of 13 dollars a month, I have various bridges to sell you. There may be exceptions to that rule, but in my experience, they are few and far between.

[Stompa]

Time is Time... you make me giggle... I can see why you're stuck on HMPs.

I mean, I'm not going to stop you from wasting your time.


Well yes time is time lol. You can choose to spend your *time* playing a roleplaying game, set in an atmospheric virtual world online, and playing your RPG character. You can choose to spend your time just messing around in that world, having fun and using the normal 119 weapons that are readily available for fairly low effort and gil. Or you can choose to spend your time working on long term goals like RME.

Money is money, and you can choose to play Failga IV games that allow the purchasing of progress. You can savour that empty hollow feeling as you buy another Hero item, that you didn't battle any monsters to get, or have fun memories of farming with your ingame friends.

In the meantime I will look forward to completing my empy, battling monsters, going on adventures with friends while trying to finish my weapon.

And by the way, your slur missed the mark. The reason I haven't finished empy is because I spend my gil on other things too, like crafting and upgrading armor sets. And I help on the LS, do a lot of stuff that isn't going to get me either gil or empy upgrade items. I'm sure if I went /fanaticmode and just put all my time and gil into my empy, it would have been finished a while ago. But I want to play many aspects of the game, such as helping other players and perfecting my crafting skills.

I'm not playing FFXI just to finish a weapon, but it is a long term goal of mine, and I really will get a physical adrenaline hit when that finished weapon is in my hand. And I will feel excited to obtain it, not *despite* it took so long and so much effort - *because* it took so long and so much effort.

[Seillan]

Time is Time... you make me giggle... I can see why you're stuck on HMPs.

I mean, I'm not going to stop you from wasting your time.
http://rs1img.memecdn.com/The-time-you-enjoy-wasting-is-not-wasted-time_c_95219.jpg

Honestly, with your philosophy, I seriously question why you would ever even humor the idea of playing in a genre like this. What are these games exactly, if not fun, wastes of time? They have always been just that, and they will always -- at least to a point -- be just that. They are designed to take time and to reward people that work for things. If you want every, single thing handed to you up front, there are plenty of genres out there that pander to your tastes. Or, like I mentioned earlier, plenty of F2P grinders and the like that would love you and your loose wallet.

[Dale]

Yeah, I understand there are plenty of pay-to-win games out there. But I disagree on "There is no good reason to bring it here also". I would think quite the opposite to this in fact. I'm sure players would love it more than you'd think. Just because there are a handful of you here saying "No, please no..." doesn't mean others are not silently cheering on SE to implement it. Like Abyssea, I believe the shop would add another good facet to this game that players can leverage.

Diversity is good in the market place yes, but why not apply within something that already exists? Just a little effort is needed to get it off the ground. :)

Because if they were to make all games pay-to-win then players who wanted to avoid those types of games would have no where to go. That's why it's not good to make all products the same. It has the opposite effect of adding diversity to the market.

And I suspect if they added Pay-to-Win to this game you would see what population they have left almost completely disappear. Because I think Final Fantasy XI survives largely because of old-school players who appreciate the more traditional aspects of MMORPG. And pay-to-win isn't going to appeal to them at all.

[Zephrose]

Never have I said a Pay-to-Win game was the right thing to do and is what SE needs to add to FFxi. I was merely throwing the idea around here to see what you guys thought of it. Obviously you three really don't like the idea, so I'll try to shift this back to the original question. What are you're thoughts on a Cash Shop with just Vanity/Novel items being sold?

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/23996705.jpg

[Dale]

Never have I said a Pay-to-Win game was the right thing to do and is what SE needs to add to FFxi. I was merely throwing the idea around here to see what you guys thought of it. Obviously you three really don't like the idea, so I'll try to shift this back to the original question. What are you're thoughts on a Cash Shop with just Vanity/Novel items being sold?

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/23996705.jpg

Fair enough. I'll refer to my earlier post to answer your question:

The only way I could ever support something like that is if the items were purely cosmetic in nature and the developers swore an oath that all proceeds from it would go directly into development and not extra drinks in the bar after work. I would also need to see immediate results as well to confirm they were telling the truth. Then I might could hold my nose and support it.

That's how I feel about the vanity/novel shop.

[Camiie]

They'd have to develop a working payment system before they can have a cash shop.

[Deirdre]

Vanity or not, I do not like the idea in XI. For two different reasons--the first is that XI has a certain style, and the majority of armor is 'realistic'. Not all, but the majority looks like it would be protective. A lot of vanity in games seems to be either hilariously flashy gear or out of universe (Cloud's armor, Squall's SeeD gear, Tidus's whatever-the-heck-he-wore) that wouldn't fit in Vana'diel well.

The second reason, frankly, is we pay XI and expect all content to be available. If you want a neat hat, I don't want to ever have to go "So does that drop from something mean, or did you simply buy it?" I say no to cash shop in any form.

[Zephrose]

Vanity or not, I do not like the idea in XI. For two different reasons--the first is that XI has a certain style, and the majority of armor is 'realistic'. Not all, but the majority looks like it would be protective. A lot of vanity in games seems to be either hilariously flashy gear or out of universe (Cloud's armor, Squall's SeeD gear, Tidus's whatever-the-heck-he-wore) that wouldn't fit in Vana'diel well.

The second reason, frankly, is we pay XI and expect all content to be available. If you want a neat hat, I don't want to ever have to go "So does that drop from something mean, or did you simply buy it?" I say no to cash shop in any form.

If you think a lot of armor in this game looks realistic compared to other games out there, you're daffy. This game has its subtleties but then it again it has subligars too. And have you seen those on Galka legs... DAMN!

As for the going out and purchasing something more than the monthly sub... Don't purchase anything more. No one is telling you to go out and buy something more than what you think it is worth. Some people enjoy spending extra for things like Mog hat or Gobby suit. The items dont give the players anything extra aside from looks.

Who knows, the shop may also have race/name/face/hair changes as well. I mean, people have been asking for that a lot. Would that not be cool to have?

[Blah]

I'd quit if they added one

Oooooops I guess I'M the only one that thought he was referring to the cross dressing post above him. (Which I kinda want to see but don't want to see) :eek:

[Rainehx]

They'd have to develop a working payment system before they can have a cash shop.

(burn)

Personally the notion that inputting CC numbers and paying, rather than playing the game to advance is moronic, its a game... to play it is the whole idea is it not?

From the issues of players being fully equipped but having no idea how to play a job, to the devs becoming lazy and just adding stuff to the "cash shop" rather than making exiting challenging content for said drop is not great prospect.

The only way it would work for me personally is if they had either a rmt'er icon viewable to distinguish the rmters, or separate servers.

[Spectreman]

I think subscription based games should NEVER have a cash shop. Where is this going to end?

[Finuve]

I think subscription based games should NEVER have a cash shop. Where is this going to end?dunno, modern MMO design has dictated that people that enjoy vanity items should have to pay for them instead of collecting in game, and juggernauts like WoW have decided that the leveling process is no longer a worthwhile part of the game and just let you buy your way past it.

[Shirai]

Where is this going to end?

When a cash shop added to it will no longer provide enough extra revenue to keep it up.
Keep in mind that, as I have mentioned before, your money is more important to the company than your petty protests.

And looking at the amount of $24,- Odin horses I see pass by on my Guildwork feed, paired with the plethora of messages of people getting caught in the log in queue the cash shop has already proven more successful in FFXIV than the protests of people saying that they will quit the game over it.
I'm pretty sure that they've already considered adding one to this game, and with the success of the one implemented for XIV implementation is just a matter of time.

[Zephrose]

When a cash shop added to it will no longer provide enough extra revenue to keep it up.
Keep in mind that, as I have mentioned before, your money is more important to the company than your petty protests.

And looking at the amount of $24,- Odin horses I see pass by on my Guildwork feed, paired with the plethora of messages of people getting caught in the log in queue the cash shop has already proven more successful in FFXIV than the protests of people saying that they will quit the game over it.
I'm pretty sure that they've already considered adding one to this game, and with the success of the one implemented for XIV implementation is just a matter of time.

This. +1

A few people squabbling about "No Cash Shop" isn't going to stop them from adding one when literally hundreds of thousands of players are going to race to the shop for exclusive merchandise anyways. Square Enix loves you, sure. But they love your wallet more. That's just business for you. That's not to say they wont treat you nice and wipe your precious little booty for the right price. :)

[Deirdre]

If you think a lot of armor in this game looks realistic compared to other games out there, you're daffy. This game has its subtleties but then it again it has subligars too. And have you seen those on Galka legs... DAMN!

As for the going out and purchasing something more than the monthly sub... Don't purchase anything more. No one is telling you to go out and buy something more than what you think it is worth. Some people enjoy spending extra for things like Mog hat or Gobby suit. The items dont give the players anything extra aside from looks.

Who knows, the shop may also have race/name/face/hair changes as well. I mean, people have been asking for that a lot. Would that not be cool to have?

I simply meant the armor STYLE. The graphics of course are behind brand new games, but the majority of armor that you purchase tends to have protective layers of mail or leather, not giant exposed boobs that are miraculously protected by the aura of the armor or whatever XD.

I agree with face and hair options, but why should we PAY for it? Why shouldn't we earn that in a quest if SE really wants to offer it? Give us a barber NPC that we have to escort from jeuno at level capped 20, fine, but I'd prefer that we didn't get in the habit where the answer was always "put it on the cash shop!".

[Draylo]

Sorry but they are a business so they will want to make money. Look at all the idiots buying 24 dollar Odin mounts and 40+ dollars on two accounts so they can get their own 2 seat chocobo in FFXIV. The model works unfortunately because of people like that.

[Seillan]

Sorry but they are a business so they will want to make money. Look at all the idiots buying 24 dollar Odin mounts and 40+ dollars on two accounts so they can get their own 2 seat chocobo in FFXIV. The model works unfortunately because of people like that.

Well hopefully, considering that the FFXI playerbase is largely older and "set in their ways", maybe they'll refrain from adding a shop here out of fear of backlash. I'm pretty sure the Japanese FFXI playerbase wouldn't be to keen on it either.

Ultimately though, I guess if the shop ever becomes a necessary evil to keep the game from getting shut down, it'd be the better alternative I suppose.

[Finuve]

Sorry but they are a business so they will want to make money. Look at all the idiots buying 24 dollar Odin mounts and 40+ dollars on two accounts so they can get their own 2 seat chocobo in FFXIV. The model works unfortunately because of people like that.I pretty much blame those people for how awful the MMO genre is anymore.

It boggles my mind that people accept getting their wallets pillaged so horribly in a subscription based game

[Shirai]

Well hopefully, considering that the FFXI playerbase is largely older and "set in their ways", maybe they'll refrain from adding a shop here out of fear of backlash.
I doubt it, I really do.
To be fair, the whole "set in their ways" died long ago, the game has changed and so has a lot of the playerbase and the ones truly set in their old ways quit and moved on long ago.


I'm pretty sure the Japanese FFXI playerbase wouldn't be to keen on it either.
Sorry, but I have to YOINK those rose tinted glasses off.
You are grossly underestimating the willingness of the Japanese when it comes to paying extra for useless trinkets related to something they like, physical or digital doesn't matter.

[Malithar]

Well hopefully, considering that the FFXI playerbase is largely older and "set in their ways", maybe they'll refrain from adding a shop here out of fear of backlash. I'm pretty sure the Japanese FFXI playerbase wouldn't be to keen on it either.

Have to very much disagree. Check out Decazoom Mk-XI (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Decazoom_Mk-XI) and Escritorio (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Escritorio), two of the more recent includes with physical merchandise in Japan. Yes, that's an all jobs gun + camera, and an all jobs polearm that looks like a giant quill pen. Neither are within "lore" as some may say, they're very much out of place in the game. While things like these, the Tidal Talisman, various hats and clubs they've given away over the years, etc, were not available directly from a cash shop, they did require further purchases to acquire. Whether it's due to this generation of gamers or whatever you may want to blame, a vast number have no issue with shelling out extra to get something extra, cosmetic or otherwise.

I'd be more surprised if SE doesn't add a cash shop at this point.

[Comeatmebro]

As long as it stays cosmetic, all good. Can always dat swap all the cash shop stuff to something really shitty looking!

[Dale]

I doubt it, I really do.
To be fair, the whole "set in their ways" died long ago, the game has changed and so has a lot of the playerbase and the ones truly set in their old ways quit and moved on long ago.


I'm going to have to disagree somewhat because I believe Seillan is making a point I agree with.

A lot of us have been turned off by modern trends in the MMORPG genre and returned home to FF XI. Quite a few of the older players I once knew still play this game, and all of them attempted to get into Final Fantasy 14 but just couldn't. So I really do think the only thing keeping Final Fantasy XI alive at this point is its appeal with older more traditional RPGers who are set in their ways and refuse to change to go along with this new generation of gamers. And to abandon that and give in to modern trends would doom this game I believe.

This game has changed over the years. You are right about that. But it still retains much of its original design and plays very differently to the modern MMORPG. This game still has long term goals and an emphasis on hard work - rewarding the player based on their in-game efforts rather the thickness of their wallet. So I think if they start adding a lot of the modern-day bells and whistles - like cash shops for example - they will be walking a very thin line and risk alienating the very people keeping this game alive.

[Dale]

Sorry but they are a business so they will want to make money. Look at all the idiots buying 24 dollar Odin mounts and 40+ dollars on two accounts so they can get their own 2 seat chocobo in FFXIV. The model works unfortunately because of people like that.

This is a niche game though. It will never be able to compete with newer games by using similar tactics.

To be successful in today's market you have to either copy WoW (like Final Fantasy 14 did), become F2P/P2W - or offer a unique experience that appeals to a smaller audience that's willing to pay for something different. I just don't see where a Final Fantasy XI would fit in if it started trying to become more like Final Fantasy 14. I just think it's a bad move.

[Zephrose]

I doubt it, I really do.
To be fair, the whole "set in their ways" died long ago, the game has changed and so has a lot of the playerbase and the ones truly set in their old ways quit and moved on long ago.


Sorry, but I have to YOINK those rose tinted glasses off.
You are grossly underestimating the willingness of the Japanese when it comes to paying extra for useless trinkets related to something they like, physical or digital doesn't matter.

To Shirai's point, the Japanese very much like their cosmetic and novelty items for just about anything. Software and Game developers just took it a step further and added this point of sale to their digital products. And not to alienate any cultures, but people around the world have picked up this habit as well.


I'm going to have to disagree somewhat because I believe Seillan is making a point I agree with.

A lot of us have been turned off by modern trends in the MMORPG genre and returned home to FF XI. Quite a few of the older players I once knew still play this game, and all of them attempted to get into Final Fantasy 14 but just couldn't. So I really do think the only thing keeping Final Fantasy XI alive at this point is its appeal with older more traditional RPGers who are set in their ways and refuse to change to go along with this new generation of gamers. And to abandon that and give in to modern trends would doom this game I believe.

This game has changed over the years. You are right about that. But it still retains much of its original design and plays very differently to the modern MMORPG. This game still has long term goals and an emphasis on hard work - rewarding the player based on their in-game efforts rather the thickness of their wallet. So I think if they start adding a lot of the modern-day bells and whistles - like cash shops for example - they will be walking a very thin line and risk alienating the very people keeping this game alive.

I've found a lot of people who dislike other MMOs are those who dislike being outside of their comfort zone. Moving to a new game with no friends and a new system of play. This can make a new player feel very uncomfortable and alienated. These same people believe the game they are trying new is just not for them and then go back to something they know well and are comfortable in. And in honesty, this is just human nature. No one likes to be outside of their comfort zone. It's just like being a kid in school and then having to move. The feeling of being in a different place is scary. I relate a lot of this nature to people moving from FFxi to FFxiv. But this is for a different topic.


This is a niche game though. It will never be able to compete with newer games by using similar tactics.

To be successful in today's market you have to either copy WoW (like Final Fantasy 14 did), become F2P/P2W - or offer a unique experience that appeals to a smaller audience that's willing to pay for something different. I just don't see where a Final Fantasy XI would fit in if it started trying to become more like Final Fantasy 14. I just think it's a bad move.

And this is why I think them adding a Cash shop might make them a bit more money before they have to kill the game. Give you all the goodies in/out of game so you can feel like you are a part of the grandeur that is FFxi.

[Stompa]

And this is why I think them adding a Cash shop might make them a bit more money before they have to kill the game. Give you all the goodies in/out of game so you can feel like you are a part of the grandeur that is FFxi.

That feeling of 'being part of the FFXI grandeur' occurs when you log in and play FFXI. You don't have to pay extra money in a giftshop to have that feeling.

Also on "kill the game" some people in the player community have been saying "FFXI is dying" since early 2005. So I will really wait for an official SE announcement before I start thinking the game is dying or about to be killed.

Its worth remembering that FFXI has paid for FF14 to remain on life-support for such a long time. Not the other way around.

[Zephrose]

That feeling of 'being part of the FFXI grandeur' occurs when you log in and play FFXI. You don't have to pay extra money in a giftshop to have that feeling.
That feeling is simply subjective. Some players feel the full feeling of grandeur is to have all elements to the product. Others simply feel it by being a part of it. This can be taken many different ways. Big business likes giving the consumer the option to taken on novelty items to give them that full effect. Yeah, it might cost a bit more money to obtain, but obviously a lot of people are OK with this.

Good example of this was when the mini-stories were released. SE made those add-ons purely independent of the main game. Yes, you can use the items they give you, but you didn't have to buy them at all. And infact, there was an up roar about those being looked at in the same light. "Why should I have to pay for more of something to keep up with the next person when I already pay you 12.99/month..." This is just the way SE has done business for years... It's nothing new.


Also on "kill the game" some people in the player community have been saying "FFXI is dying" since early 2005. So I will really wait for an official SE announcement before I start thinking the game is dying or about to be killed.

Never said the game was going to die soon. But that lack of player base really does make you wonder where it's going.


Its worth remembering that FFXI has paid for FF14 to remain on life-support for such a long time. Not the other way around.

True. Thank you for the reminder of older days. But may I remind you what is keeping FFxi a live to this day? Must be those hundreds of thousands of subscribers it has still.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/55731154.jpg

[Stompa]

Some players feel the full feeling of grandeur is to have all elements to the product. Others simply feel it by being a part of it. This can be taken many different ways.


You get "the elements to the product" by "simply being a part of it."

In the quote above you have chosen to separate playing the game and obtaining items from that game. But this is your predilection, and has no bearing on the nature of gaming.

Role-playing games have been around since the 1970s, computergames started shortly after. RPG and other games have always been about playing the game in order to make progress. The concept of playing the game to make progress is a 30+ year old concept. The concept of just paying money for progress is a new concept by comparison.

FFXI is a very unique game, it has charted hitherto unsailed waters, being the first seriously popular long running mainstream RPG, which retains a lot of the old RPG values. There are no maps for where FFXI has travelled, or is going to travel. That is because it is sailing alone on uncharted seas. Therefor speculation on its fate is just that - speculation. We can't look back on the history of games and compare FFXI to other games, because no other game has done what FFXI did, and continues to do.

I have already agreed that things like Tidal and Moogle cap etc. would be nice additions for new players or players who missed the original purchase. I have no problem with shops for fun gift items. I have a problem with shops selling progress, or currency, or items that people have poured years of effort into obtaining. You are skating around that issue a lot, you seem to want to be able to buy HQ gear or progress from a cash shop, but you are very obtuse and vague about this. I would say that this is contra to the FFXI adventurer spirit and roleplaying culture, which is about working towards goals with likeminded adventurers, not just clicking a BUY button in a cash shop.
:cool:

[Zephrose]

You get "the elements to the product" by "simply being a part of it."

In the quote above you have chosen to separate playing the game and obtaining items from that game. But this is your predilection, and has no bearing on the nature of gaming.

Role-playing games have been around since the 1970s, computergames started shortly after. RPG and other games have always been about playing the game in order to make progress. The concept of playing the game to make progress is a 30+ year old concept. The concept of just paying money for progress is a new concept by comparison.

FFXI is a very unique game, it has charted hitherto unsailed waters, being the first seriously popular long running mainstream RPG, which retains a lot of the old RPG values. There are no maps for where FFXI has travelled, or is going to travel. That is because it is sailing alone on uncharted seas. Therefor speculation on its fate is just that - speculation. We can't look back on the history of games and compare FFXI to other games, because no other game has done what FFXI did, and continues to do.

I have already agreed that things like Tidal and Moogle cap etc. would be nice additions for new players or players who missed the original purchase. I have no problem with shops for fun gift items. I have a problem with shops selling progress, or currency, or items that people have poured years of effort into obtaining. You are skating around that issue a lot, you seem to want to be able to buy HQ gear or progress from a cash shop, but you are very obtuse and vague about this. I would say that this is contra to the FFXI adventurer spirit and roleplaying culture, which is about working towards goals with likeminded adventurers, not just clicking a BUY button in a cash shop.
:cool:

I don't even know where to start with the above history lesson you are trying to give me. Where there are some points to your argument, there also seems to be some points missing from the same timeline and overall business you are trying to defend. I won't go into detail here as it would be too long of a response. Just know that FFxi is not the first to do A LOT of what it has here.

As for me walking a fine line... Is that not what we are suppose to do when asking questions? I have made no insinuations of adding a F2P or P2W game mechanic. I have simply stated it would be neat to have a cash shop and what else they might add to it. The thought of adding additional items such as ingame currency and such was an idea to play around with. Take it as you will. Just remember, assuming makes an ass of u and me.

[Stompa]

I don't even know where to start with the above history lesson you are trying to give me. Where there are some points to your argument, there also seems to be some points missing from the same timeline and overall business you are trying to defend. I won't go into detail here as it would be too long of a response. Just know that FFxi is not the first to do A LOT of what it has here.

As for me walking a fine line... Is that not what we are suppose to do when asking questions? I have made no insinuations of adding a F2P or P2W game mechanic. I have simply stated it would be neat to have a cash shop and what else they might add to it. The thought of adding additional items such as ingame currency and such was an idea to play around with. Take it as you will. Just remember, assuming makes an ass of u and me.


Just know that FFxi is not the first to do A LOT of what it has here.


No FFXI wasn't the first, but it is the longest running single game in the true RPG style, which is mainstream and popular. Other RPG games have had games-series spanning decades, but not a single game running this long and being mainstream / popular.

FFXI was not the first, the first was D&d tabletop pens paper dice games in the 1970s. They had statistics and jobs etc. which FFXI borrowed heavily from. I played Dungeon Master for the first time in 1980, for a tabletop roleplaying group. Four of our original D&d group from 1980 are still playing tabletop roleplaying, and I still sit as Dungeon Master for them, after 34 years. One of the things about sitting as DM is that you learn to respect Rules, Balance, Fair Play, and trying to keep the game atmospheric and playable for a long time. These things are ingrained into me and are the reason why talk of a FFXI gear shop fills me with dread.

I did not allow our roleplaying group to treat me like a Cash Shop, and pay me $10 when they wanted to level up or obtain a powerful weapon. If I had tried to do this, the people buying stuff would have got bored quickly, and the rest of the group would have quit the group in disgust, and probably punched me on the way out of the door too. But because progress was orderly and fair and effort/skill based, our RPG group still plays after all this time, and we have great fun doing so.

Square Enix is the Dungeon Master for the FFXI roleplaying game, they are expected to uphold rules and fairness and maintain an atmospheric and exciting journey, just like Dungeon Masters have done since the 1970s.


I don't even know where to start with the above history lesson you are trying to give me
I wasn't giving you a history lesson. I was replying to your post, by citing examples to show how "cash shops" are very new and have no "track record." We can list many popular and successful games of the last 30+ years which existed without cash shops and where players had to play the game long time to make progress. Those games were successful and popular for decades, and we can show this historically.

Cash shop games are fairly new and have very little track record. We cannot say what the long-term effects of cash shops will be in those games. We can however say that people are still re-playing old games from the 1980s and 1990s, games which were successful and popular without a cash shop, and may well have been dead and buried long time ago if they'd had a cash shop.

:cool:

[Zephrose]

No FFXI wasn't the first, but it is the longest running single game in the true RPG style, which is mainstream and popular. Other RPG games have had games-series spanning decades, but not a single game running this long and being mainstream / popular.

Hate to pop your bubble... Oh what am I say, I love popping your bubble. You might want to look at this link. http://www.gamingclimax.com/mmorpg-articles/mmorpg-top-10/top-10-mmos-that-have-been-around-the-longest/

You might want to reconsider your train of thought. To think that FFxi is the longest running RPG style, which is mainstream and popular, is almost delusional.


FFXI was not the first, the first was D&d tabletop pens paper dice games in the 1970s. They had statistics and jobs etc. which FFXI borrowed heavily from. I played Dungeon Master for the first time in 1980, for a tabletop roleplaying group. Four of our original D&d group from 1980 are still playing tabletop roleplaying, and I still sit as Dungeon Master for them, after 34 years. One of the things about sitting as DM is that you learn to respect Rules, Balance, Fair Play, and trying to keep the game atmospheric and playable for a long time. These things are ingrained into me and are the reason why talk of a FFXI gear shop fills me with dread.

I did not allow our roleplaying group to treat me like a Cash Shop, and pay me $10 when they wanted to level up or obtain a powerful weapon. If I had tried to do this, the people buying stuff would have got bored quickly, and the rest of the group would have quit the group in disgust, and probably punched me on the way out of the door too. But because progress was orderly and fair and effort/skill based, our RPG group still plays after all this time, and we have great fun doing so.

Square Enix is the Dungeon Master for the FFXI roleplaying game, they are expected to uphold rules and fairness and maintain an atmospheric and exciting journey, just like Dungeon Masters have done since the 1970s.

There you go again with the history lesson. Relating DnD to FFxi is like relating DnD to every known RPG in existence. Obviously DnD of old did not have a cash shop... you're comparing apples to oranges. If you want to play DnD so much, stop with FFxi and go jump on DnD 5.0, which sucks more balls than anything else out there.



I wasn't giving you a history lesson. I was replying to your post, by citing examples to show how "cash shops" are very new and have no "track record." We can list many popular and successful games of the last 30+ years which existed without cash shops and where players had to play the game long time to make progress. Those games were successful and popular for decades, and we can show this historically.

Cash shop games are fairly new and have very little track record. We cannot say what the long-term effects of cash shops will be in those games. We can however say that people are still re-playing old games from the 1980s and 1990s, games which were successful and popular without a cash shop, and may well have been dead and buried long time ago if they'd had a cash shop.

:cool:

You can call it what you will, history lesson or citing old concepts and business models, you are still referring to something that is in the past.

Obviously cash shops are new. They have only been around for the last 4 years or so. With the mobile/social markets thriving at the moment, companies are finding ways to give consumers products they enjoy. Even MMOs, which are social by nature, are looking into adding shops with similar products.

Yes, some are pay-to-win type games and they have their own nitch. But as I have stated before, I did not say they should add any of those types of products to the catalog.

And lastly, DAMN Stompa... you old... Good to see old retired people still play MMOs.

http://rs1img.memecdn.com/Cool-story-bro_o_94023.webp

[vienne]

Good example of this was when the mini-stories were released. SE made those add-ons purely independent of the main game. Yes, you can use the items they give you, but you didn't have to buy them at all. And infact, there was an up roar about those being looked at in the same light. "Why should I have to pay for more of something to keep up with the next person when I already pay you 12.99/month..." This is just the way SE has done business for years... It's nothing new.

I dont know why you take this as an example, paying 12,99 for an add-on isnt exactly the same as buying a mount (I dont know what it costs but i thought it was around the rediculous price of 24 in the ffxiv cashshop) the add-ons when they were released for lvl75 content did give you a nice bit of missioning to do. You werent getting the reward if you didnt complete the storyline.

Personally the bottomline for me is that we pay for a product and we expect everything is in that product, I dont want SE to throw extras out there in a cashshop while we already pay quite a bit for an 11 years old game knowing its not going to go back into xi. Its like milking an old cow.

PS. Calling people retarded on here is really low, your point would sound alot more valid if you could discuss in a civilized manner.

[Zephrose]

I dont know why you take this as an example, paying 12,99 for an add-on isnt exactly the same as buying a mount (I dont know what it costs but i thought it was around the rediculous price of 24 in the ffxiv cashshop) the add-ons when they were released for lvl75 content did give you a nice bit of missioning to do. You werent getting the reward if you didnt complete the storyline.

Personally the bottomline for me is that we pay for a product and we expect everything is in that product, I dont want SE to throw extras out there in a cashshop while we already pay quite a bit for an 11 years old game knowing its not going to go back into xi. Its like milking an old cow.

PS. Calling people retarded on here is really low, your point would sound alot more valid if you could discuss in a civilized manner.

Why wouldn't it be an excellent example. It was around the same time they were testing out cash shop mechanics anyways.

I remember buying the addons and completing the content in three days, one day for each addon. There was no challenge, there was no special twist to the world, other than Shantoto, and the items awarded were Huge when gained. Which forces the need to buy the addons. Otherwise you'd feel left out and behind for not having the BiS piece.

So yeah, I think the addons are a great example for this discussion as they were an attempt at what is currently on topic.

PS.
http://rs1img.memecdn.com/no-dark-sarcasm-in-the-classroom_c_3376349.jpg

[Finuve]

Why wouldn't it be an excellent example. It was around the same time they were testing out cash shop mechanics anyways.

I remember buying the addons and completing the content in three days, one day for each addon. There was no challenge, there was no special twist to the world, other than Shantoto, and the items awarded were Huge when gained. Which forces the need to buy the addons. Otherwise you'd feel left out and behind for not having the BiS piece.

So yeah, I think the addons are a great example for this discussion as they were an attempt at what is currently on topic.

the addons included new storylines, challenges, and a reward that actually required playing the game to get. This wasnt as grand as a full expansion pack, but was an addition to the game in a meaningful way.

MMOs these days would rather take the gear from these expacs, strip the stats from them, and sell them for $10 a piece. These MMOs can also !$%# right off.

You are clearly a terrible person though, so I'm not sure why I'm responding.

[Zephrose]

You are clearly a terrible person though, so I'm not sure why I'm responding.

Clearly. :D

I'd be more worried about yourself than what you thought of me. :cool:

[Finuve]

Clearly. :D

I'd be more worried about yourself than what you thought of me. :cool:me? I'm fine

[Stompa]

Hate to pop your bubble... Oh what am I say, I love popping your bubble. You might want to look at this link. http://www.gamingclimax.com/mmorpg-articles/mmorpg-top-10/top-10-mmos-that-have-been-around-the-longest/

You might want to reconsider your train of thought. To think that FFxi is the longest running RPG style, which is mainstream and popular, is almost delusional.

There you go again with the history lesson. Relating DnD to FFxi is like relating DnD to every known RPG in existence. Obviously DnD of old did not have a cash shop... you're comparing apples to oranges. If you want to play DnD so much, stop with FFxi and go jump on DnD 5.0, which sucks more balls than anything else out there.

You can call it what you will, history lesson or citing old concepts and business models, you are still referring to something that is in the past.

Obviously cash shops are new. They have only been around for the last 4 years or so. With the mobile/social markets thriving at the moment, companies are finding ways to give consumers products they enjoy. Even MMOs, which are social by nature, are looking into adding shops with similar products.

Yes, some are pay-to-win type games and they have their own nitch. But as I have stated before, I did not say they should add any of those types of products to the catalog.

And lastly, DAMN Stompa... you old... Good to see old retired people still play MMOs.



D&d was the first. FFXI has very similar attribute system to D&d, also To-Hit etc., also Rogue/Thief and Knight/Paladin etc. all bear striking similarity to D&d. Obviously not the same, but you can see the direct influence from one system to the other.

Most D&d computer games suck. I liked Baldur's Gate series a lot, but that was about it.

My tabletop group plays a doctored version of the core AD&D rulebooks, we don't play the new systems from 1990 onwards. We like the original core game. I write my own Hero Modules for my RPG group to play. They are playing their advanced characters that they've played for over thirty years, which makes storylines very complex. One of the player characters has been hunted by the same NPC villain since 1981 lol.

I build modules which are thousands of pages long, for my friends to adventure through. We are currenly playing a very enjoyable module about a collapsing monarchy, it is high level battles and emotional NPCs. Full of intrigue and courtly drama, lol.

Please don't post links to websites to somehow make your points. Please pick out specific points from those sites and quote them in context. FFXI is the longest running online RPG, in the true RPG style. The term "role playing game" here meaning the player can add more personality to their character than just name/race/gear.

RPGs have storyline, customisable character traits, and the opportunity to express your character's personality in the interactive roleplaying world. Most games are too linear and restrictive to allow a player to use their imagination and play a fully-formed character.

WOW etc. are more in the "fighting fantasy arcade game" genre than in the "roleplaying game" genre.

FFXI by contrast, a person is (for example) crafting stacks of cloth or more complex weaving products, to place on the market, so that customers will have their produce, and doing so dressed in their Weavers Apron which denotes that they are part of the union, working in their moghouse which has spinning wheels and fine raiments and other clothcrafter furnishings.

This person is roleplaying a clothworker, and this person has a list of customers in the world who will send them messages when they require some fine cloth products. They might play a Thief who has a quiet and observant personality, so doesn't talk much in events or on LS. Their character has a dark past, and prefers to stay silent most of the time and observe the actions of others. They feel more comfortable working the loom and handling cloth. This is roleplaying a detailed character, and it is possible in FFXI.

If you are going to reply to this, please refrain from personal insults about my age or anything else.

[Draylo]

That website is garbage lol. GUNZ more successful than FFXI? He must be delusional and you too.