Do you think one day there will be a MMORPG where helping others....

[Spectreman]

Benefits yourself?

Like here we have endgame gear being sold while in other MMORPGs we have similar things.

I imagine how a newbie might feel after getting 117 gear and realizing he has no chance of either joining an endgame ls and will have to amass 50mil gil at least to buy delve wins.

I know thats utopia but wouldn't it be nice if the game rewarded veterans for helping others with these things?

[Pixela]

Well you don't have to buy those wins, you don't have to do high tier delve or have that gear at all.

The majority of players of this game don't do those fights, the majority of players have never and never will do the top tier endgame content of FFXI or any other mmo.

The truth of the matter is the merc thing is only as popular as it is because people pay it, if they refused there would be no buyers and nobody would do it. Desperation would lead to more linkshells being made and more doing it. The merc system ruins games but it's hard to stop it once it starts.

[Spectreman]

Well you don't have to buy those wins, you don't have to do high tier delve or have that gear at all.

The majority of players of this game don't do those fights, the majority of players have never and never will do the top tier endgame content of FFXI or any other mmo.

The truth of the matter is the merc thing is only as popular as it is because people pay it, if they refused there would be no buyers and nobody would do it. Desperation would lead to more linkshells being made and more doing it. The merc system ruins games but it's hard to stop it once it starts.


Yea this is not about making veterans look bad by selling endgame content, not at all. It was just myself thinking if there will be a MMORPG in the future that promotes helping to a level where those things don't need to exist at all.

[Ris]

Yea this is not about making veterans look bad by selling endgame content, not at all. It was just myself thinking if there will be a MMORPG in the future that promotes helping to a level where those things don't need to exist at all.

The problem is game designers want there to be a hierarchy of players. They don't like selling... because it helps players get gear they "shouldn't" be able to get. Just look at interviews of the devs...

[Siviard]

After extensive research and an in-depth investigation, I have discovered why you are having such difficulty. Especially take note of the BOLDED portion.


Character:Silvervalkyrie
World:Asura
Main Class:THF Lv 50

In order to remedy your situation, I highly recommend you move to a different server.

[Spectreman]

The problem is game designers want there to be a hierarchy of players. They don't like selling... because it helps players get gear they "shouldn't" be able to get. Just look at interviews of the devs...

Yea, without players selling most of these players would never have a shot at endgame at all.

[Spectreman]

After extensive research and an in-depth investigation, I have discovered why you are having such difficulty. Especially take note of the BOLDED portion.

hehe this is not my main ^^


In order to remedy your situation, I highly recommend you move to a different server.

I was thinking about new players when they reach the 117 gear. I'm always worried if FFXI can retain new players cause without them the game will die.

[Raydeus]

Well, having the game rewarding players for helping newbies and newbies paying for Merc services are pretty much the same thing, the only thing that changes is who is paying the bill.

One way I see to encourage players to take newbies along would be by increasing drop rates on completion when someone without the win is in the alliance, maybe even guaranteeing a drop per newbie. Alternatively they could add special items that normally wouldn't drop there but will drop if a player without the win is in the alliance with increased drop rate for each newbie you bring along.

However choosing the rewards would be a pain because people will undoubtedly resort to leveling alts in order to obtain the special rewards, which may or may not mean newbies wont be invited anyway unless some elegibility restrictions are put in place.

In other words I'm glad I'm not a dev and I don't have to deal with this kinda thing. But I hope something like this will happen in the game (and MMOs in general) someday.

[Draylo]

How do you think ANYONE got past 117 gear level? Did they buy it too? Why can't those people team up and get a win on their own? You realize how laughably easy Delve is now in a low man setting, especially since beads are 100% drop rate? You can lock out three Nms, kill the two easiest ones and then you have 30m to kill one mega boss NM. I can't understand how it is so hard for people now. If that is the case, just level BRD and you won't even need ilevel gear lol.

[Raydeus]

How do you think ANYONE got past 117 gear level? Did they buy it too? Why can't those people team up and get a win on their own? You realize how laughably easy Delve is now in a low man setting, especially since beads are 100% drop rate? You can lock out three Nms, kill the two easiest ones and then you have 30m to kill one mega boss NM. I can't understand how it is so hard for people now. If that is the case, just level BRD and you won't even need ilevel gear lol.

Mainly because newbies don't know any of things you are talking about. They don't know how easy or difficult is, nor how many people they actually need or what party compositions to take, on top of being in a PUG to begin with. Etc. etc.

And that is the point, if you are on an alt and already did all this stuff on another character of course it's going to be much easier for you to do it a second time. But if you are new to it or even new to end game in a MMOG then you don't have the experience to make it the less painful way. So you are going to stumble around while you learn. And how many PUGs are willing to spend that much time experimenting like that? In that case you are better off with a LS, but then we go back to the original issue.


PS > And telling people to level up another job just to get it done is the kind of stuff that makes people drop games like this one, specially considering who would realistically want to take a newbie that rushed BRD to 99 just to get the content done, someone who barely knows how to play the job and probably don't even like it to begin with. That's just the type of nonsensical reply you give to someone you just want to dismiss if you ask me.

[mattkoko]

Mainly because newbies don't know any of things you are talking about. They don't know how easy or difficult is, nor how many people they actually need or what party compositions to take, on top of being in a PUG to begin with. Etc. etc.

And that is the point, if you are on an alt and already did all this stuff on another character of course it's going to be much easier for you to do it a second time. But if you are new to it or even new to end game in a MMOG then you don't have the experience to make it the less painful way. So you are going to stumble around while you learn. And how many PUGs are willing to spend that much time experimenting like that? In that case you are better off with a LS, but then we go back to the original issue.


PS > And telling people to level up another job just to get it done is the kind of stuff that makes people drop games like this one, specially considering who would realistically want to take a newbie that rushed BRD to 99 just to get the content done, someone who barely knows how to play the job and probably don't even like it to begin with. That's just the type of nonsensical reply you give to someone you just want to dismiss if you ask me.

Also, don't forget that when it first came out, pretty much everyone was doing it. Now that it is older content, newer people are going to have even more trouble. It's not like we get new people coming in at all times like we used to back in the games prime. I actually did have to take up Dray's route to level another job, and in this case it was whm (A job I swore I would never level up until these days) because even when these events where hot, once people got some 119 gear, it quickly became, 119 or gtfo unless your a brd or whm. And this is why Ilevel breaks the game and in my opinion is a horrible design. Back in the 75 days or even when the cap was 99 with no item level, if you took a couple months off, you wouldn't need to change your entire gear set in order to get into something. Even if you took a break when cap was 75 and came back when the cap was 99, all you had to do was level to 99 and get some decent gear even if it was just AH gear and it would be somewhat acceptable. This is not the case anymore. Now, if you took a break during the abyssea era or earlier and came back with item level, yea you get get 117 gear pretty easy, but in order to get 119, you have to be 119.

[Comeatmebro]

group with other 117s

everyone who did it as it was new was using full alliance only in gear that was at best i105 equivalent(yea it had the huge base damage, but without iskill it wasn't -that- far ahead of relics)

now it scales to your group size and you're handed gear that stomps on what the people who originally beat it had to use

if you can't do it, you aren't trying hard enough, the content is a complete joke now(by design, they even said they'd weaken content over time)

[VoiceMemo]

Benefits yourself?

Like here we have endgame gear being sold while in other MMORPGs we have similar things.

I imagine how a newbie might feel after getting 117 gear and realizing he has no chance of either joining an endgame ls and will have to amass 50mil gil at least to buy delve wins.

I know thats utopia but wouldn't it be nice if the game rewarded veterans for helping others with these things?

It really depends on what LS your in. A good LS can make or break your endgame experience. I run a linkshell that I like to call a retirement shell. Where a shell of older players that have played for a while, but no longer can devote the time as they did when they were younger, because of job/family/kids. We still do endgame events but at a slower pace than other shells. Shells like this do exist on asura, you just have to find them.

[mattkoko]

group with other 117s

everyone who did it as it was new was using full alliance only in gear that was at best i105 equivalent(yea it had the huge base damage, but without iskill it wasn't -that- far ahead of relics)

now it scales to your group size and you're handed gear that stomps on what the people who originally beat it had to use

if you can't do it, you aren't trying hard enough, the content is a complete joke now(by design, they even said they'd weaken content over time)

In my opinion, any design of content that relies on it being made into a "complete joke" just after a few months of being out is a poor design.

And I understand and agree with what you are saying that now it is possible, but when I came back after a year off, even when the content was hot, as I said, I still had to level whm to get into anything. Because by the time I caught up to where everyone was before the update to 119, they already had their 119 stuff and were shouting for only 119 jobs. This is where new players and returning players may have trouble. Which is why I think it is a poor design. Because the same cycle will happen when 129 comes out. Because if you don't get first dibs on the new stuff with in the first week or 2, you will be sol until they make it into a "complete joke" again. Unless you are a part of an ls that is willing to help and is flexible. I am lucky that one of my LSes was still running when I came back.

[Afania]

Benefits yourself?

Like here we have endgame gear being sold while in other MMORPGs we have similar things.

I imagine how a newbie might feel after getting 117 gear and realizing he has no chance of either joining an endgame ls and will have to amass 50mil gil at least to buy delve wins.

I know thats utopia but wouldn't it be nice if the game rewarded veterans for helping others with these things?


FYI FFXI used to give out incentives to veterans for helping others by making veterans needing help for everything they do as well.

Can't open gates in certain zone? Need help!
Need help with tele.
Need help with killing certain NM and get items.
Need help with building an Abyssea weapon.

You can't solo most of the content, and you get gear by lotting drops but not points, so you need to ask others to help if you want the drop. You can't go to most of the places, so you need to ask friend/ls mate for tele. Because everyone would need help at one point of time, so they need to "do others a favor" in order to get help when they need it.

Now that everything is either solo friendly, and every participant gets nearly equal chance for items, there are zero incentive to help others for free. When you do content, everyone gets stuff, so only those who needs stuff would come.

I have been playing since lv 75, despite many ls also merc items at lv 75, I always feel the community was a lot closer and helpful at lv 75. Back then if one person needs joyeuse, nearly entire LS would come and help that person claim it, even though only 1 person out of many can get the item, rest of the lsmate get nothing.

Now if you ask someone to help with event, they wouldn't come unless they get something out of it.

Yeah, why help others if you don't need their help? Wanting FFXI to become a more solo friendly MMO = less incentive to help others.

P.S Btw, you don't need 50M to get all 6 delve wins.

[Afania]

group with other 117s

everyone who did it as it was new was using full alliance only in gear that was at best i105 equivalent(yea it had the huge base damage, but without iskill it wasn't -that- far ahead of relics)

now it scales to your group size and you're handed gear that stomps on what the people who originally beat it had to use

if you can't do it, you aren't trying hard enough, the content is a complete joke now(by design, they even said they'd weaken content over time)

Lol @ grouping with other 117s. Other 117s would just buy win or lv a mage and leech win, making the server less competent 117 to choose from/group with. From what I've seen, 98% of the ppl aren't going to "try hard" with other 117 and wipe several times for a win. Seriously, stop comparing FFXI in 2013 July to FFXI in 2014, we can "try hard" in 2013 because we had to, in 2014 there are zero incentive to do it the hard way.

[Malithar]

Seriously, stop comparing FFXI in 2013 July to FFXI in 2014, we can "try hard" in 2013 because we had to, in 2014 there are zero incentive to do it the hard way.

Going to take a logic leap and say for the people who need the clears, the incentive is there. The problem lies in the community and posts like this that act like doing such content in 115-117 gear is not possible or "too hard" to bother with. They get convinced that they'll never ever see these completions short of buying them.

While I don't mind it for the business, I hope they realize it's plenty doable.

[Afania]

Going to take a logic leap and say for the people who need the clears, the incentive is there. The problem lies in the community and posts like this that act like doing such content in 115-117 gear is not possible or "too hard" to bother with. They get convinced that they'll never ever see these completions short of buying them.

While I don't mind it for the business, I hope they realize it's plenty doable.


Clearing delve1 in full party of 117 gear is doable, it's just completely not worth the effort. The risk of failing is too high, it'd take several tries to get win, 1/1 is highly unlikely. In PUG there are generally very little trust in the pt, if there's 1~2 fail the entire pt would disband with players blisting each other, thus making it harder for a group of static practice the run and fix their mistakes.

In June/July 2013 most of the group that have cleared delve1 did not 1/1 tojil/shark. Some group may managed to 1/1 ceizak after they've cleared tojil/shark, but I don't know many group/ls that cleared Tojil/shark on their first try at that time.

Since most of the groups couldn't clear delve1 at that time, their only chance is to stick with their LS, kept practicing the run, fix their mistakes and eventually got clear.

This isn't happening in PUG, PUGs disband and point fingers at each other after failure. They're not going to stay with the pt and gain experience together.

Note that delve1 clear cost 3M on my server, once I even undercut to 1M when I made a pt. It doesn't take more than a couple of hours to farm 1~3M to buy win. You can make enough gil with 1 salvage+ 1 dyna.

The time you may spend to /shout for a stunner/BRD/WHM, make a pt of 6, and waste time after a fail run, rep ppl that left the pt and go again, you're more likely to spend more time than doing 1 salvage+1 dyna.

So why would you take risk at making a pt that may fail, when you can spend same amount of time to farm gil and get 100% win?

You are correct that "Need the clear" is an incentive, except when more efficient option exists, most ppl would go with a more efficient route, which is to spend 2.5hr to farm gil, buy win and get it done with.

[Comeatmebro]

risk of failing is only as high as the players incompetence, you can find full guides for what needs to be done and none of it's very hard

sch sch | whm brd cor geo mnk mnk with nobody wearing anything but sparks gear and no accessories could 1/1 tojil if they took the time to read a strategy

[Zarchery]

I can tell this is going to become one of those 80 page long threads with lots of bickering and personal attacks.

[mattkoko]

I can tell this is going to become one of those 80 page long threads with lots of bickering and personal attacks.

Oh yea!? Well you suck! Only my opinion counts! Just kidding.

[Zarchery]

Oh yea!? Well you suck! Only my opinion counts! Just kidding.

I HATE YOU AND ALL YOU AND YOUR DESCENDENTS STAND FOR IN PERPETUITY THROUGHOUT TIME ALSO SOMETHING SOMETHING HITLER.

[Afania]

risk of failing is only as high as the players incompetence, you can find full guides for what needs to be done and none of it's very hard

sch sch | whm brd cor geo mnk mnk with nobody wearing anything but sparks gear and no accessories could 1/1 tojil if they took the time to read a strategy


Apparently you've never make PUG(and didn't read my point)......of course you can 1/1 tojil in spark gears if you play with 6 Comeatmebro.

[Spectreman]

This topic is not about FFXI so Draylo and Afania stay on topic please or i will report you. This is a General Discussion about a possibility of a MMORPG with new mechanics towards endgame interaction between veterans and newbies. FFXI was just an example of how bad it became. I'm not asking for solutions in FFXI.

This is a debate about the future of MMORPGs and FFXI is not the main theme. If your troll finger can't understand that at least refrain yourself from derailing this topic. This isn't a topic for veterans to show how awesome they are. Next time i see a personal attack here or trolling i will report.

[Afania]

This topic is not about FFXI so Draylo and Afania stay on topic please or i will report you. This is a General Discussion about a possibility of a MMORPG with new mechanics towards endgame interaction between veterans and newbies. FFXI was just an example of how bad it became. I'm not asking for solutions in FFXI.

This is a debate about the future of MMORPGs and FFXI is not the main theme. If your troll finger can't understand that at least refrain yourself from derailing this topic. This isn't a topic for veterans to show how awesome they are. Next time i see a personal attack here or trolling i will report.

I presented a logical opinion about what makes veteran willing to help newer player, which is to stop making solo content, and I used FFXI as an example to support my reason, and I'm a troll?? Can you please explain which post I've made in this thread are showing off how awesome I am? Just because I use FFXI as an example to support my opinion about the game mechanic I'm derailing? FFXI isn't MMORPG?

Also I don't personal attack strangers on forum, saying Comeatmebro plays with 6 Comeatmebro isn't personal attack, it's repeating his own statement about the amount of char he plays with. I have valid reasons to point that out as well, since my post was about how time consuming it is to find 6 ppl in PUG, and how farm gil to buy win being more efficient, then he popped and told us how easy it is as a player mostly play with mules, effectively missing my point.

You may find my post sounds blunt on the forum all the time, but that's because I'm too lazy to fix my sentence to make it sound nice, so all my opinions are presented in a way that's straight to the point. All the forum post I've made as far as I remember are just stating facts and presenting opinions, I have 0 interest in personal attack ppl I don't even know irl.

[mattkoko]

This topic is not about FFXI so Draylo and Afania stay on topic please or i will report you. This is a General Discussion about a possibility of a MMORPG with new mechanics towards endgame interaction between veterans and newbies. FFXI was just an example of how bad it became. I'm not asking for solutions in FFXI.

This is a debate about the future of MMORPGs and FFXI is not the main theme. If your troll finger can't understand that at least refrain yourself from derailing this topic. This isn't a topic for veterans to show how awesome they are. Next time i see a personal attack here or trolling i will report.

I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, but if this thread is not about improving FFXI, then this entire thread is not on topic. This is a FFXI forum, not a general MMORPG forum. The entire point of this forum is to discuss solutions on making ffxi a better game. It is hard to keep posts on topic when this entire thread isn't on topic. If you want to talk about the future of MMORPGs in general, perhaps you should make a thread like this in a forum about general MMORPGs. By the way, I do not mean this as a personal attack in the slightest and I am in no way trying to give you attitude so I am sorry if I come off that way. Just pointing out the facts is all.

[Dale]

Benefits yourself?

Like here we have endgame gear being sold while in other MMORPGs we have similar things.

I imagine how a newbie might feel after getting 117 gear and realizing he has no chance of either joining an endgame ls and will have to amass 50mil gil at least to buy delve wins.

I know thats utopia but wouldn't it be nice if the game rewarded veterans for helping others with these things?

If you think this game is inaccessible now you should have seen it 10 years ago. It ate newbies for dinner and spat them back out in little pieces. So this game has definitely moved in the direction you think it should.

I'm having a hard time understanding your point though. To get gear past 117 -119 gear - all you need to do is run a few battlefields and make some gil. It doesn't require a massive endgame LS or the assistance of veterans. So if you could clarify what you mean it might would help me to understand your beef.

[Stompa]

My friend who returned to the game (on a new account) just solo'd Pup level 1-->99, solo'd all his LB's (except lvl95 which we duo'd), solo'd all the xp for 99 levels, solo'd AF quests, etc.etc. He did all this using Trusts, money from RoE, XP from RoE, FOV GOV book page XP in all the old areas, etc. Now he can solo COP ZM TOAU WOTG missions. He has already started saving REM chapters from sparks, to upgrade his AF to lvl 119.

He doesn't want Delve gear, so the "paying for delve wins" doesn't apply. He wants reforged AF 119, and the Ohtas weapon from Oboro. The former is soloable (slowly lol), and the latter is easy enough to get a party for the BC win and then just farm gil to pay for the items.

So it is true that there was a pay-off between making the game more soloable, and people not needing to help eachother, and that has obviously had knock-on effects with linkshells and soforth. But the whole QOL /soloable updates arrived in response to plummeting server numbers, so I can only say thankyou to SE for making the changes that allow returning players to solo content (if they want to or have to). It was a good solution to the lower numbers of people in the game, people who in the past would have helped you with LB3 or farming AF coffers or w/e. The fact that it is soloable, and my friend solo'd to 99 without even unlocking Aby, and was able to just xp without leeching, was able to make gil while xping by selling sparks weaps, etc. is a very good change of system that SE added to compensate for lowering server numbers.

He does remember the old game, and he prefers the new system, because he is not dependent on other people and he can play the game on his own timeframe, log in and just play, instead of log in and wait for party / wait for a veteran to help you get stuff / make progress.

Obviously I wouldn't say no to getting free stuff for helping new players, but tbh I enjoy helping them for free, and more importantly they don't need help like they used to, at all.

[Toushin]

I've been playing FFXI since 2001 so from then til now I remember all the help it took to get me here. Now I know the FFXI now is nothing like it used to be (curse you COP), so I get that SE made it easier to solo, but I still get random /tells in game asking me for help either asking to help unlock job classes, limit breaks, getting blu spells, blue proc, etc the list goes on. I don't mind lending a hand I just look to it as paying it forward so it doesn't bother me helping people out as long as i'm there and not afk. The only thing i ask of them is to help someone else out when they are in a situation they can do so.

[Ramzi]

This topic is not about FFXI so Draylo and Afania stay on topic please or i will report you. This is a General Discussion about a possibility of a MMORPG with new mechanics towards endgame interaction between veterans and newbies. FFXI was just an example of how bad it became. I'm not asking for solutions in FFXI.

This is a debate about the future of MMORPGs and FFXI is not the main theme. If your troll finger can't understand that at least refrain yourself from derailing this topic. This isn't a topic for veterans to show how awesome they are. Next time i see a personal attack here or trolling i will report.

Is this a joke? It's a FFXI board but NO TALKING ABOUT FFXI!!!!

Ok then, I point you to FFXIV: ARR. SE adjusted dungeon content so participating in random dungeons rewards players with more exp and mythology/soldiery tokens. It can be done once per day for each category, and the rewards are (were anyway) worth the effort, especially if you lucked out and got a primal fight which lasts 5 minutes, and rewarded you with tens of thousands of exp points.

Not sure if this same type of reward system would work in FFXI, but say there was extra incentive for a player to do an Ark Angels fight if there was a first time player in the group. Maybe they would be guaranteed 3 extra chapters for winning.... might be incentive enough to get people to help. I know it would for me. But in order to implement this, it would require some kind of party search function so you know who is looking to do these fights, and give you a mechanism to join them. (the shout/yell system just wouldn't work).

Oh my bad, I'm off topic....damn, and I thought I was providing constructive feedback.

[kylani]

Benefits yourself?

Like here we have endgame gear being sold while in other MMORPGs we have similar things.

I imagine how a newbie might feel after getting 117 gear and realizing he has no chance of either joining an endgame ls and will have to amass 50mil gil at least to buy delve wins.

I know thats utopia but wouldn't it be nice if the game rewarded veterans for helping others with these things?

I wish new folks could experience the entire game, not just jump into endgame. I know Trusts help new players accomplish things that we didn't used to be able to, and I'm glad for it, but at the same time, there was nothing like doing the missions and quests with other people, everyone working together, failing until you get a strat down, and that wonderful feeling when you finally do succeed. I wish there was a way to help new folks experience the game like that.

I never have understood the point of hiring mercs to begin with. Why even play if you are just playing to hire mercs. Why pay to 'win' endgame when there is so much to enjoy if you take your time and explore and enjoy the content.

If anything, I wish other games were half as good at FFXI at providing such variety of great content.

[Dale]

I wish new folks could experience the entire game, not just jump into endgame. I know Trusts help new players accomplish things that we didn't used to be able to, and I'm glad for it, but at the same time, there was nothing like doing the missions and quests with other people, everyone working together, failing until you get a strat down, and that wonderful feeling when you finally do succeed. I wish there was a way to help new folks experience the game like that.

I never have understood the point of hiring mercs to begin with. Why even play if you are just playing to hire mercs. Why pay to 'win' endgame when there is so much to enjoy if you take your time and explore and enjoy the content.

If anything, I wish other games were half as good at FFXI at providing such variety of great content.

I sympathize. But sadly this new generation of gamers are too used to having things given to them. The old days of MMORPGs when players were dependent on one another to overcome obstacles are probably a thing of the past. And most modern titles treat partying as merely a mechanical function where strangers are just lumped together based on simplistic roles and strategies. It's a boring and very shallow system and I have no idea what these new gamers see in such games. I feel more like a cog in some wheel rather an individual role playing in a fantasy world with other players.

The trust idea was a good compromise I suppose. It allows players to solo while still experiencing a semblance of group-based tactics. But in the end, I really have to ask what is the point of playing an MMORPG if you want to solo most of the time? It kind of defeats the whole purpose of an MMORPG if you ask me.

I believe the original Final Fantasy XI did it right in this respect. Soloing was possible. But it was difficult and dangerous so grouping was always preferred. Luckily there is enough left over from the old system that keeps this game more group-oriented than the newer titles. Still I'm with you on this though, and still prefer it as it was in the elder days when Vanadiel felt like a dangerous wilderness you had to respect, rather one you could easily stomp across alone.

[kylani]

I sympathize. But sadly this new generation of gamers are too used to having things given to them. The old days of MMORPGs when players were dependent on one another to overcome obstacles are probably a thing of the past. And most modern titles treat partying as merely a mechanical function where strangers are just lumped together based on simplistic roles and strategies. It's a boring and very shallow system and I have no idea what these new gamers see in such games. I feel more like a cog in some wheel rather an individual role playing in a fantasy world with other players.

The trust idea was a good compromise I suppose. It allows players to solo while still experiencing a semblance of group-based tactics. But in the end, I really have to ask what is the point of playing an MMORPG if you want to solo most of the time? It kind of defeats the whole purpose of an MMORPG if you ask me.

I believe the original Final Fantasy XI did it right in this respect. Soloing was possible. But it was difficult and dangerous so grouping was always preferred. Luckily there is enough left over from the old system that keeps this game more group-oriented than the newer titles. Still I'm with you on this though, and still prefer it as it was in the elder days when Vanadiel felt like a dangerous wilderness you had to respect, rather one you could easily stomp across alone.

I'm actually in an odd camp where I loved the old days, but I don't want them back like they were. I like things as they are now. Sure there were great times, but there were bad too. I was lucky to be RDM when RDM was considered a must, but I had friends who loved DRG and MNK and RNG when it was hard for them to get in a party with those jobs. We leveled together when we could, but I worked so I was only on in the evenings and weekends. The folks I met were often students who played various times or from Japan or Taiwan. We had great fun, but getting together was often a pain. Fortunately, I met some friends with the same schedule in our LS so we formed a static to do COP and helped each other with missions as well as other LS members. There is absolutely nothing preventing that kind of play today except the player base doesn't choose to do it.

Most of my friends that left, left because it was so hard getting groups and getting things done. So I don't think trying to force folks to play together works. For some it may, and it may be the best experience ever, but in this day and age, people will leave the game if they can't get things done on their own. Who wants to play a game that you can't play on your own schedule? I don't think any game could make this work any better than FFXI did/does, and FFXI still lost people because they got frustrated. I don't know that any game designer can conquer this problem. The problem is really the player base. Absolutely nothing prevents people playing like they used to, except players don't want to do it.

I love grouping, but all of my friends have moved on. So what have I done since I came back this past month? I actually started leveling a new character with Trust and enjoying all this new stuff, and have been having a blast because the quests are still fun, and I'm enjoying being able to do things I couldn't do by myself back when I was a new player. Just because it's an MMO doesn't mean I can't enjoy playing it solo. There are still MMO elements that I like. This weekend, I answered a shout for a crafted item, teamed up with another player in Valkurm, did some BCNM/KNMs with a friend. I love this game, whether soloing or doing things with others. I'm enjoying, anything and everything I choose to do.

I don't think a game designer can make people want to play with/help others. If they set up a system where people got rewarded for helping, it would turn into some kind of farming thing. 'Hey, let me help you so I can get 'so and so'. I feel like people have to want to help because they want to help. I like to think, most people enjoy the good feeling you get from helping others. If anything, encouraging casual link shells would be the only thing I can think of that might help people meet and work together. I really miss the first LS I had where we did help each other or just talked in ls even when we were all doing our own thing.

[Ris]

Yea, without players selling most of these players would never have a shot at endgame at all.


I was thinking about new players when they reach the 117 gear. I'm always worried if FFXI can retain new players cause without them the game will die.

You've touched on what is really an important issue, but I don't think there's a (good) technical solution to it. In the end it's a social issue...

Usually when a game community becomes very conscious of its own mortality, that's when high end players start taking an interest in bringing in newbies. But... I think by the time FFXI would become small enough that that could actually happen, it will probably not be a profitable game for Square Enix anymore.

Even a large, successful game like FFXIV could benefit if there was a good (technical) solution to this problem. I've known some and heard of many others becoming less active and eventually quitting because they can't get past T5 or get a SCoB static... leaving them directionless, not necessarily because they lack 'skill' either. The game does well despite this but imagine what it could be if there was a way to solve this problem...

Making things solo friendly really isn't that great of an answer to this problem but when the vast majority of the playerbase just doesn't care... well, it's better than leaving things as is.

An alternative is to make "manpower" as important as character skills/gear/progression... EVE online does this, and it's why even a fresh newbie gets lots of attention from recruiters... but I think that would be hard to apply to a fantasy MMO that's more traditionally RPG-like.

Sorry for the wall of text! ^^;

[Dale]

I'm actually in an odd camp where I loved the old days, but I don't want them back like they were. I like things as they are now. Sure there were great times, but there were bad too. I was lucky to be RDM when RDM was considered a must, but I had friends who loved DRG and MNK and RNG when it was hard for them to get in a party with those jobs. We leveled together when we could, but I worked so I was only on in the evenings and weekends. The folks I met were often students who played various times or from Japan or Taiwan. We had great fun, but getting together was often a pain. Fortunately, I met some friends with the same schedule in our LS so we formed a static to do COP and helped each other with missions as well as other LS members. There is absolutely nothing preventing that kind of play today except the player base doesn't choose to do it.

Most of my friends that left, left because it was so hard getting groups and getting things done. So I don't think trying to force folks to play together works. For some it may, and it may be the best experience ever, but in this day and age, people will leave the game if they can't get things done on their own. Who wants to play a game that you can't play on your own schedule? I don't think any game could make this work any better than FFXI did/does, and FFXI still lost people because they got frustrated. I don't know that any game designer can conquer this problem. The problem is really the player base. Absolutely nothing prevents people playing like they used to, except players don't want to do it.

I love grouping, but all of my friends have moved on. So what have I done since I came back this past month? I actually started leveling a new character with Trust and enjoying all this new stuff, and have been having a blast because the quests are still fun, and I'm enjoying being able to do things I couldn't do by myself back when I was a new player. Just because it's an MMO doesn't mean I can't enjoy playing it solo. There are still MMO elements that I like. This weekend, I answered a shout for a crafted item, teamed up with another player in Valkurm, did some BCNM/KNMs with a friend. I love this game, whether soloing or doing things with others. I'm enjoying, anything and everything I choose to do.

I don't think a game designer can make people want to play with/help others. If they set up a system where people got rewarded for helping, it would turn into some kind of farming thing. 'Hey, let me help you so I can get 'so and so'. I feel like people have to want to help because they want to help. I like to think, most people enjoy the good feeling you get from helping others. If anything, encouraging casual link shells would be the only thing I can think of that might help people meet and work together. I really miss the first LS I had where we did help each other or just talked in ls even when we were all doing our own thing.

I'm going to have to defend old school FFXI here in that no one was forced to group in the old days. Soloing was possible and enjoyable in my opinion. I even soloed on Dark Knight so your friend could have done it if he had put in the effort. It was just a lot easier and less dangerous in groups. And I believe you need that incentive to group up else people won't' do it. Why bother putting a group together for something you can easily do yourself? That's not being anti-social or anything. It's just common sense really. And you have only to look at the multitude of newer MMORPGs to see this, because they are largely played as solo games as a result. And it's had its effect on this game as well, as I rarely see groups out in the open world now an days. It's usually just soloist running around with trusts.

I believe Final Fantasy XI 's original design failed not because soloing was difficult or that much of the content required groups, but because of their endgame. The NM camping was tedious and boring and that's why I left and all of my friends did. That and the economy was brutal and dominated by gold sellers. Luckily that style of NM camping has mostly been abandoned and the economy is in much better shape. But I do believe the original game had the right balance between solo and group play and I wish they would bring it back.

[Olor]

risk of failing is only as high as the players incompetence, you can find full guides for what needs to be done and none of it's very hard

sch sch | whm brd cor geo mnk mnk with nobody wearing anything but sparks gear and no accessories could 1/1 tojil if they took the time to read a strategy

Oh give me a break. Any sch that was good enough to stun in delve already has the clear. I did delve runs with people with 119 gear/relics etc that still failed - so to say full 117 party would clear all delves with NP, in a PUG ... is just silly.

Is it technically possible? Sure. Is it likely? No.


This topic is not about FFXI so Draylo and Afania stay on topic please or i will report you.

All topics in a FFXI general forum should be about FFXI.

[kylani]

I'm going to have to defend old school FFXI here in that no one was forced to group in the old days. Soloing was possible and enjoyable in my opinion. I even soloed on Dark Knight so your friend could have done it if he had put in the effort. It was just a lot easier and less dangerous in groups. And I believe you need that incentive to group up else people won't' do it. Why bother putting a group together for something you can easily do yourself? That's not being anti-social or anything. It's just common sense really. And you have only to look at the multitude of newer MMORPGs to see this, because they are largely played as solo games as a result. And it's had its effect on this game as well, as I rarely see groups out in the open world now an days. It's usually just soloist running around with trusts.

I believe Final Fantasy XI 's original design failed not because soloing was difficult or that much of the content required groups, but because of their endgame. The NM camping was tedious and boring and that's why I left and all of my friends did. That and the economy was brutal and dominated by gold sellers. Luckily that style of NM camping has mostly been abandoned and the economy is in much better shape. But I do believe the original game had the right balance between solo and group play and I wish they would bring it back.

Sorry if I implied my friends never soloed. We did a lot of variety, including soloing/duoing, and my DRG friend ended up with Maat's cap before he left. There really wasn't any content we couldn't do when we all got on, and we did a lot solo, duo, etc. But back then, there weren't other MMOs, and when you get on to play a game, and spend much of your time waiting/scheduling to play, it's not hard to see why folks would go to other games when they became available.

I'd give anything for my friends to give FFXI another try now, but they're not willing to give up their lives again, and it's hard to convince them otherwise. Today it's different. Back then, just to do limit breaks, you needed help. Our LS scheduled runs when folks needed help, but it's frustrating when you want to play all week, and need to wait till Saturday to get your LB done or hope you can get help if you shout, but the whole mechanic was frustrating in general. Doesn't mean we didn't do it, and that the accomplishment didn't mean more when you finally hit your goals. I'll never forget getting rank 10, Sky, finally beating the Promies and getting into Lufaise Meadows, etc, and am glad I went thru it, but I can't imagine doing it again. I think it's wonderful there are more options now, even if you don't get that same satisfaction.

Personally, I always enjoyed doing whatever I was doing, crafting, soloing (anything /bst was fun to me, and I liked getting exp while farming for my crafting). But people are different, and I think the changes that have been made over the years have been great. I sure hated dying in the old days, I'd lose more exp than I gained some days beasting, but the world had a scarier, more dire feel than today. No one cares about dying anymore. So while I like the changes, it doesn't mean there weren't trade offs. I really miss having to worry about what folks around you were doing, and loved being on watch for sleeping adds, etc, but most folks seemed to like not having to worry about trains from others ruining their exp party, etc. I feel for MMO designers. You can't please everyone. I've tried many games, but FFXI always brings me back.

[Dale]

Sorry if I implied my friends never soloed. We did a lot of variety, including soloing/duoing, and my DRG friend ended up with Maat's cap before he left. There really wasn't any content we couldn't do when we all got on, and we did a lot solo, duo, etc. But back then, there weren't other MMOs, and when you get on to play a game, and spend much of your time waiting/scheduling to play, it's not hard to see why folks would go to other games when they became available.

I'd give anything for my friends to give FFXI another try now, but they're not willing to give up their lives again, and it's hard to convince them otherwise. Today it's different. Back then, just to do limit breaks, you needed help. Our LS scheduled runs when folks needed help, but it's frustrating when you want to play all week, and need to wait till Saturday to get your LB done or hope you can get help if you shout, but the whole mechanic was frustrating in general. Doesn't mean we didn't do it, and that the accomplishment didn't mean more when you finally hit your goals. I'll never forget getting rank 10, Sky, finally beating the Promies and getting into Lufaise Meadows, etc, and am glad I went thru it, but I can't imagine doing it again. I think it's wonderful there are more options now, even if you don't get that same satisfaction.

Personally, I always enjoyed doing whatever I was doing, crafting, soloing (anything /bst was fun to me, and I liked getting exp while farming for my crafting). But people are different, and I think the changes that have been made over the years have been great. I sure hated dying in the old days, I'd lose more exp than I gained some days beasting, but the world had a scarier, more dire feel than today. No one cares about dying anymore. So while I like the changes, it doesn't mean there weren't trade offs. I really miss having to worry about what folks around you were doing, and loved being on watch for sleeping adds, etc, but most folks seemed to like not having to worry about trains from others ruining their exp party, etc. I feel for MMO designers. You can't please everyone. I've tried many games, but FFXI always brings me back.

Some of the changes are nice. I don't miss the massive experience penalty on death for example. But the problem when an MMORPG appeals to the players who want to be able to easily solo everything or at least most things is the game turns into a mostly solo RPG game with a chat window. And playing with others turns into more of an endgame option rather a core function of the game itself.

I understand your point about not being able to please everyone. But I think the real problem is that gamers who want to primarily solo flock to play multi-player games for some odd reason then complain when they actually have to play with others to progress. Because it should be expected in my opinion at least that on an MMORPG that you will need to group up with others to accomplish things. That should be common sense in my estimation. But instead they don't seem to accept this and demand the game be changed to suit their solo play style and that harms the game for people like me who primarily play multi-player games for the multi-player aspects. Because if I wanted to play a game designed for solo play I would simply go play a solo game.

I differ with you in one respect, and that is I could imagine myself beating the Promies and getting to Lufaise Meadows again. In fact I almost crave it, and feel MMORPGs are at their best when friends have to come together to overcome great challenges they couldn't do alone. Because I loved old school FFXI and it remains by far my best experience with any MMORPG.

As I pointed out to you in my earlier post, I don't believe it was the game's challenge and group-oriented content that causes its original design to fail. I believe it was the boring and tedious nature of its endgame and the brutalization of its economy by gold sellers. Now I could be wrong about that. But I know that's why I quit the original game. Because I loved the original's focus on challenging group-play. It's why I stuck around for the many years that I did. And if I really enjoy something, I can usually find a way to fit it into my life. Though I'll admit the scheduling could be a pain at times. But as long as the content is kept at reasonable numbers it was worth the effort to me. And planning an event for 5 other friends to beat the promies and get to Lufaise Meadows wasn't that bad. Now managing larger events which required alliances is another matter and I'm with you on that.

[Malithar]

Oh give me a break. Any sch that was good enough to stun in delve already has the clear. I did delve runs with people with 119 gear/relics etc that still failed - so to say full 117 party would clear all delves with NP, in a PUG ... is just silly.

Of course they have the clears, they worked at it, just as most others have. There's absolutely nothing stopping a player or group from learning how to stun and doing the content, 117 gear or otherwise. You don't even need Sch, could be Rdm, Geo, 2x Drks, etc. Laziness and competence typically don't mix well when someone has a goal in mind.

[Afania]

Of course they have the clears, they worked at it, just as most others have. There's absolutely nothing stopping a player or group from learning how to stun and doing the content, 117 gear or otherwise. You don't even need Sch, could be Rdm, Geo, 2x Drks, etc. Laziness and competence typically don't mix well when someone has a goal in mind.


The point isn't whether ilv 117 pt being doable or not, the point is that if you're an ilv 117 player with 0 delve clear experience, besides getting LS/friends to help, paying someone else for delve1 clear is hands down the most efficient solution.

Of course you can clear with an inexperienced full pt of ilv117 if you really want to, it's just that you can probably accomplish the same result faster by farm gil and buy win.

Winning a delve1 is also a bit more than "competence", 80% of them is also communication and team work. It's quite unfair to blame the failure on "laziness and incompetence" You can play perfect in your ilv 117 gears, but nothing will change if communication doesn't work.

One example is, my friend who often trio-box foret delve1, suddenly failed the same zone twice in a row when he invited 2 friends to the pt. Because he tend to sleep MB after pull, then buff the pt. While other ppl are used to buff first then pull MB and zerg. Without proper communication the result was pulled MB, someone woke MB when mages were buffing, mayhem--->wipe mages---> /rage warp.

There's nothing wrong with playstyle/gear/skill in this case(we've been clearing this zone before SoA skill update, cleared hundred times literally, if we had playstyle/gear/skill issue we wouldn't be able to), it's the difference between one /p chat sentence before pull.

If you only play with same friends or just multi-box delve1 zones solo, then you probably won't understand the tricky part of communication/team work, which often become an issue when you play with strangers. When this issue kicks in, even experienced veterans can get a slap in the face.

If this issue can happen between friends who've been clearing/selling delve1 for 1+ year, surely it'll happen a lot often between new/returning player wearing ilv117 gears with 0 clear experience. Learning how to stun needs time, learning how to DD properly needs time, learning how to deal with moves needs time, learning how to communicate in /p chat needs time and experience, and /shouting and rep members also needs time. Slowly, hours passed and the ilv117 players may still not have win. By the time you finally get win, you're lotting gears against 5 other members.

You can get everything done in 2.5hr or less solo if you buy win, and you get to lot all the gears that comes with free 70k plasm, which probably worth more than 1~3M itself.

No matter how I see it, making a pt full of ilv117 players with 0 win experience aiming for 1/1 is certainly a lot time consuming than pay 1~3M to alt tab youtube video, get all the ex/rare drop + 70k plasm and get it done with.

And it's certainly not the "incompetence" aspect that's affecting the decision to buy win instead of making an ilv 117 pt. IMO, it's a lot smarter to buy win in this case.

Personally, I just find it ironic that Comeatmebro made the comment about "it's doable!". It's a lot more convincing to hear someone who've really 1/1 delve1 with 6 returning player with 0 delve experience, instead of a player who plays with 6 mules and 1 year of delve experience making such comment.

Anyways, who cares, if I'm a returning player, I'd buy win. I have goals in mind, I'm not afraid of challenges. I just prefer faster and more efficient way to get things done, which is to pay 1~3M and lot all the gears, leech 70k plasm and watch youtube video while doing so. In this case, laziness/competence has nothing to do with it.

[Olor]

If this issue can happen between friends who've been clearing/selling delve1 for 1+ year, surely it'll happen a lot often between new/returning player wearing ilv117 gears with 0 clear experience. Learning how to stun needs time, learning how to DD properly needs time, learning how to deal with moves needs time, learning how to communicate in /p chat needs time and experience, and /shouting and rep members also needs time. Slowly, hours passed and the ilv117 players may still not have win. By the time you finally get win, you're lotting gears against 5 other members.


I agree 100% with Afania here, which doesn't happen often. People just assuming that first of all you're going to be able to get another 5-6 people through shouting who are at least semi-decent... then that those people are going to be willing to fail a few times... that no one is gonna rage quit then shout in Jeuno about what an idiot the leader is for not getting a win the first time... or post on your FFXIAH page about what a moron you are because you made a mistake when you've never done the run before... or w/e

Sorry, but that's just fairy tale talk. It doesn't work that way in this game. I personally don't mind leading a run if I have the strategy down and I am confident and know what I need to win. But to expect a party full of people who have never done content, especially when the strats aren't even really easy to find anymore (they are buried in bg threads or w/e a lot of the time unlike say, abyssea days where it was all in the wiki)... people who don't know which direction to go or how to properly beat the monsters... yeah....

Not realistic.

I know people did it with lesser gears before, but they were also willing to fail. Personally, I am willing to fail, but not if it comes with people calling me a moron or getting all ragey. Frankly, I think it would be fun to try and I have tried with people who weren't all ragey and it was fun.

But most people don't want to do that. And I don't want to be around people who are mean and can't relax. It's why I don't do delve runs even though my bard is more than adequate for the task (not supremely awesome but I've contributed to a win, so I know I can't be unbearably bad)

I just don't like the angry ragey stressy feels it brings out in people.

[Mitruya]

Not to mention groups are punished for taking too many people. So there's no chance for players to catch up now that everyone lowmans/multiboxes. And god forbid a newbie/returnee has leveled and geared the wrong jobs.
As far as I can tell, Delve shouts have disappeared on my server (at least during the times I pay attention to it). It's also old news now, along with the BCNMs that nobody seems to bother with.
To stay on topic, future MMOs should not do such things to discourage letting in lesser geared/less experienced players. Also the tag system in ToAU is another example of discouraging help.

[Camiie]

So where are new players going to get these millions upon millions of gil for their clears? Gil selling websites? I guess FFXI is now (unofficially) pay-to-win. Might as well go ahead and open up that cash shop, SE. The players have spoken. This is the kind of game they want.

[Olor]

So where are new players going to get these millions upon millions of gil for their clears? Gil selling websites? I guess FFXI is now (unofficially) pay-to-win. Might as well go ahead and open up that cash shop, SE. The players have spoken. This is the kind of game they want.

It's certainly not what I want. Nope.

I just don't know how to fix it even at this point. It's gotten so that I don't want to do almost anything that's current because the expectations are so high and people are so tense about it. It isn't very much fun. A big part of it is just ... most of my friends have left the game.

[Seillan]

It's certainly not what I want. Nope.

I just don't know how to fix it even at this point. It's gotten so that I don't want to do almost anything that's current because the expectations are so high and people are so tense about it. It isn't very much fun. A big part of it is just ... most of my friends have left the game.

It's sad but it seems as though elitism has truly permeated the genre, through and through. I'm hard pressed to find an online game anymore where the focus at end game is actually on fun. It's all about getting every tiny little incremental upgrade that you can now -- and that's it. And if you're not optimally efficient, every single second of you play time, then you're "bad" and you should feel bad, apparently. It's for that reason that I typically avoid end game in mmos; jaded players ruin it by taking it too damn seriously for the sake of pixels.

All that said, I still plan to have as good of a time as possible in FFXI; once I finally get some time to play it, heh. Can't wait for some vacation time.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

I know that the OP intended for this thread to cover more than just FFXI, but IMO this is an issue that FFXI is facing at this very moment, and it's only more noticeable on servers with small populations. As a new player, it's difficult to even find people, let alone make friends. Most people have already completed the content and are just AFK selling stuff so they get a relic/mythic weapon. It seems like no one has time for new players.

[Olor]

It's sad but it seems as though elitism has truly permeated the genre, through and through. I'm hard pressed to find an online game anymore where the focus at end game is actually on fun. It's all about getting every tiny little incremental upgrade that you can now -- and that's it. And if you're not optimally efficient, every single second of you play time, then you're "bad" and you should feel bad, apparently. It's for that reason that I typically avoid end game in mmos; jaded players ruin it by taking it too damn seriously for the sake of pixels.

All that said, I still plan to have as good of a time as possible in FFXI; once I finally get some time to play it, heh. Can't wait for some vacation time.

Well if you just want to derp around sometime look me up on Asura. Promise I'll laugh if we derp it up. Cause really, why call it "playing" if it's not fun?

Really my best times on the game were getting tipsy with friends, doing stuff for fun, sometimes messing it up.

[Mitruya]

Oh my gosh guys, yes, exactly. People are so uptight about efficiency they can't bother to play with you. All I do is play Monstrosity now and SE can't even bother to update it.
"Oh, you're lolPUP? Can you come another job?"
"Oh, you don't have so-and-so gear already? This content is beyond your level."
"This content is piss easy, suck less." (i.e. cheats)
And of course there's the usual response - "Go solo it with a pet job or Trusts."

[Dale]

The social atmosphere of anything is only as good as the people you're with. So most of these issues people are having in regards to elitism isn't really an issue with Final Fantasy XI. It's more of a problem with the company you keep. And you can't really fault the game for this. SE can't force the people who play their games to treat others with respect.

What I will say though is I have noticed the easier a game becomes the ruder the people become. When you actually have to rely on others to succeed in a game people tend to respect one another more because everyone they meet is a potential ally they are in need of. And people are less likely to be jerks to someone they need. I know this sounds cynical. But I believe it to be the truth nonetheless. But there will always be jerks.

So I caution players who are asking for things to be made easier and more accessible on this game because they are experiencing a lot of bad attitudes and other players are unwilling to help them. Because I believe doing this would only make this problem worse. And eventually this game will slide into the same pitfall most other MMORPGs have (and this one as well to an extent) where the game just turns into basically a solo game with an option to group up at the end so players don't have to interact with one another at all or at least as little as possible.

In short: making the game easier so players do not have to depend on one another will not make this game or the community better.

This game already has a level sync option in place. High levels can obtain merit points when helping out lower level characters get experience. I have also noticed that when doing battlefields everyone gets automatic rewards now just for participating. So I think SE has gone out of their way to encourage people to help one another. Their mistake was in lowering the challenge so players have to depend on one another less, and as a result this decreases the value and need of having allies. As a result there is less incentive to groom new players into the ranks.

My best advice is to build a circle of friends on the game who are interested in accomplishing the same things as you are. Don't depend on shouts for your events and take the time to talk to others. I'm sure there are people out there who would be willing to join you regularly for delves. Because in the end that's the only way you are going to enjoy this game. If you depend on shouts or bribing people with gil to get things done you are going to be miserable.

[Mitruya]

^Agreed. The more lowman-friendly things have become, the more you have people turning their nose up at teaming with you for anything. And as Olor has said, people will flat out yell at you for mistakes or losses.
I have not really been one of those who has asked for easy-mode. I just want to see job-balance/content-balance so everyone feels like they can participate. I thought the solo-Nyzul and 6 man-Delve changes were pretty dumb since it encourages more exclusion and multi-boxing.
Populations are dwindling, linkshells are dwindling (and really, when does it benefit you to go 18-man anymore?), and the people I knew who just played for fun seem to have disappeared.
There's no way new or returning players can catch up to endgame standards. I DO think you can partially fault the game designers who probably use psychology to encourage the addiction of playing (therefore encouraging greed and selfishness). Also, while I agree that everyone gets rewards from battlefields, I have seen complaints elsewhere of people doing new BCNMs 20+times and not getting anything. I assume this is like VW all over again, always getting crap and never what you're after. Not to mention it's the same old BS of RNG or SAM or GTFO.

[Seillan]

The social atmosphere of anything is only as good as the people you're with. So most of these issues people are having in regards to elitism isn't really an issue with Final Fantasy XI. It's more of a problem with the company you keep. And you can't really fault the game for this. SE can't force the people who play their games to treat others with respect.

What I will say though is I have noticed the easier a game becomes the ruder the people become. When you actually have to rely on others to succeed in a game people tend to respect one another more because everyone they meet is a potential ally they are in need of. And people are less likely to be jerks to someone they need. I know this sounds cynical. But I believe it to be the truth nonetheless. But there will always be jerks.

So I caution players who are asking for things to be made easier and more accessible on this game because they are experiencing a lot of bad attitudes and other players are unwilling to help them. Because I believe doing this would only make this problem worse. And eventually this game will slide into the same pitfall most other MMORPGs have (and this one as well to an extent) where the game just turns into basically a solo game with an option to group up at the end so players don't have to interact with one another at all or at least as little as possible.

In short: making the game easier so players do not have to depend on one another will not make this game or the community better.

This game already has a level sync option in place. High levels can obtain merit points when helping out lower level characters get experience. I have also noticed that when doing battlefields everyone gets automatic rewards now just for participating. So I think SE has gone out of their way to encourage people to help one another. Their mistake was in lowering the challenge so players have to depend on one another less, and as a result this decreases the value and need of having allies. As a result there is less incentive to groom new players into the ranks.

My best advice is to build a circle of friends on the game who are interested in accomplishing the same things as you are. Don't depend on shouts for your events and take the time to talk to others. I'm sure there are people out there who would be willing to join you regularly for delves. Because in the end that's the only way you are going to enjoy this game. If you depend on shouts or bribing people with gil to get things done you are going to be miserable.

Well, my point on "elitism" wasn't meant to single out XI; it's just a personal observation of the genre as a whole through my near 14 years of playing within it. Throughout my experience with games like Everquest back in the day, I don't think I ever came across someone crunching numbers or making note of optimal dps (or if they were, they at least didn't rub it in your face if you didn't perform to their standards.) Hell, even during my year or so of playing WoW during the pre-BC days, I was never ridiculed for my choices on gear or my talent spec (and I was definitely never kicked from a group for making a mistake or not knowing the perfect rotation.) I attribute that to the fact that the genre was still relatively new to most people so everyone was in that "I'm a total noob" phase, thus there wasn't as much of an experience gap. Things were still new and exciting and playing the game was still about fun. Now when I look at the end game atmosphere of just about any given mmorpg that I've been high enough to participate in (even newer ones) -- now that everything has been done to death, most of the secrets have been revealed, strategies for just about everything have been posted on a respective wiki page, etc -- I see a bunch of jaded veterans that only seem to find contentment with, as I mentioned above, incremental stat increases, increasing efficiency to a point of obsessive compulsion, and (for some apparently) berating others for not "doing it right."

Obviously I can't really speak for XI directly as I'm nowhere near endgame but I've seen it enough through other games. It's gotten to the point that I really don't do PUGs anymore or god forbid, pick up raids and the like. The environment just seems too stressful/hostile now for my taste and so much is expected even of new players -- at least from my own observations (YMMV.) I just wish people that followed that thought process could look back and remember that everyone starts new at some point and that these games should be about enjoyment and socialization -- not solely about raising your character's proficiency by another .001%.

You're totally right though; these games are always a million times better when played with friends and others that share a similar ideology in regards to fun. It's just a shame that the climate has changed to a point where people are actually hesitant to join PUGs anymore out of worry of being shat all over if they don't perform to some perfectionist standard -- and that's assuming they're even playing a "not worthless" class to begin with. I haven't looked into joining a linkshell yet, but you can rest assured I'll be going for one of the most "casual" I can find. I play these games for fun, not for competition (although, in fairness, I can understand that's a preferred play style for many.)

(*Ahem* Sorry for the rant.)


Well if you just want to derp around sometime look me up on Asura. Promise I'll laugh if we derp it up. Cause really, why call it "playing" if it's not fun?

Really my best times on the game were getting tipsy with friends, doing stuff for fun, sometimes messing it up.

I seriously may have to take you up on that :). My friend and I will hopefully have more time to play in the coming weeks, so maybe we'll catch you around. I'm all about derping it up, heh.

[kylani]

I've been thinking about this way too much.

Old school FFXI was pretty demanding. There was a mix of nice, helpful, and your more hard core players even back then. I feel like, over time, the people who enjoyed the game but were more casual left due to the demands of the game. The people I played with all wanted to earn good gear, but we mainly enjoyed the challenges and had fun doing content, whether we won or failed miserably. We used the jobs that we wanted to play, not the cookie cutter jobs that even back then others demanded, and we all had fun. I can remember folks telling us we couldn't win certain missions with our group setup, but we had leaders who liked strategy and figured out ways to win. It was awesome winning our own way.

But the game took a LOT of time, and people have lives, and the game could be incredibly frustrating at times. Folks rage quit, moved, had kids, got married, etc. I think the folks that have stayed tended to be the more hard core generally.

Now that the game is much more accessible/casual friendly, I there is a mix of new problems.
A) I think maybe there just aren't enough new people or not enough leader types. It is so easy to get decent higher level gear now than it was. New folks should be geared up in no time and ready to start harder content, but they need enough folks to team up and need to look up the strategies.

B) People can auto level to 99 so fast, and get decent gear so easily, they've never had to really work before, don't know how to team up, don't have patience when they lose.

C) Many veterans who would help have been burned so many times they've stopped trying. I've seen people with amazing gear that have no idea how to play their job. Failing isn't a big deal, but its frustrating when people aren't interested in learning and just want a win handed to them and they make things much harder than they should be. Leroy Jenkins didn't just happen in Wow.

When I rejoined a few years ago, my son and I enjoyed duoing in Abyssea to work on our gear. We'd invite folks that needed seals or mobs we were working on, and it was amazing what adding a few people who have no idea how to play can do to a plan. We're fairly easy going and found humor in most of it, but eventually we began not inviting folks because they just wouldn't listen to the strat no matter how much we went over it beforehand. Their actions were often so random and wasted pop items that took a bit of work to farm.

By the same token, another duo invited us to team up on a boss neither of us could win, and they turned out to be amazing friends and strategists, and we ended up joining their ls and doing tons of new content we wouldn't have if we hadn't run into them. It seems pretty hit or miss meeting folks though.

The problem seems to be more of a varying player base issue than a game issue to me. There is so much that CAN be done, but what people want to do to achieve goals varies widely, and meeting folks with the same mindset even harder. If you can just find like-minded people, you should be able to play and enjoy any job nowadays. I don't know why people are in such a hurry that they want the most efficient party set up for everything. Playing the job you love and figuring out how to win can be so much more satisfying.

[Olor]

I seriously may have to take you up on that :). My friend and I will hopefully have more time to play in the coming weeks, so maybe we'll catch you around. I'm all about derping it up, heh.

Awesome, hope you do. Three people can do an awful lot in this game, especially if they are willing to play around a bit and learn. Look forward to it. Shoot me a tell if you need help as well.

[Dale]

I've been thinking about this way too much.

Old school FFXI was pretty demanding. There was a mix of nice, helpful, and your more hard core players even back then. I feel like, over time, the people who enjoyed the game but were more casual left due to the demands of the game. The people I played with all wanted to earn good gear, but we mainly enjoyed the challenges and had fun doing content, whether we won or failed miserably. We used the jobs that we wanted to play, not the cookie cutter jobs that even back then others demanded, and we all had fun. I can remember folks telling us we couldn't win certain missions with our group setup, but we had leaders who liked strategy and figured out ways to win. It was awesome winning our own way.

But the game took a LOT of time, and people have lives, and the game could be incredibly frustrating at times. Folks rage quit, moved, had kids, got married, etc. I think the folks that have stayed tended to be the more hard core generally.

Now that the game is much more accessible/casual friendly, I there is a mix of new problems.
A) I think maybe there just aren't enough new people or not enough leader types. It is so easy to get decent higher level gear now than it was. New folks should be geared up in no time and ready to start harder content, but they need enough folks to team up and need to look up the strategies.

B) People can auto level to 99 so fast, and get decent gear so easily, they've never had to really work before, don't know how to team up, don't have patience when they lose.

C) Many veterans who would help have been burned so many times they've stopped trying. I've seen people with amazing gear that have no idea how to play their job. Failing isn't a big deal, but its frustrating when people aren't interested in learning and just want a win handed to them and they make things much harder than they should be. Leroy Jenkins didn't just happen in Wow.

When I rejoined a few years ago, my son and I enjoyed duoing in Abyssea to work on our gear. We'd invite folks that needed seals or mobs we were working on, and it was amazing what adding a few people who have no idea how to play can do to a plan. We're fairly easy going and found humor in most of it, but eventually we began not inviting folks because they just wouldn't listen to the strat no matter how much we went over it beforehand. Their actions were often so random and wasted pop items that took a bit of work to farm.

By the same token, another duo invited us to team up on a boss neither of us could win, and they turned out to be amazing friends and strategists, and we ended up joining their ls and doing tons of new content we wouldn't have if we hadn't run into them. It seems pretty hit or miss meeting folks though.

The problem seems to be more of a varying player base issue than a game issue to me. There is so much that CAN be done, but what people want to do to achieve goals varies widely, and meeting folks with the same mindset even harder. If you can just find like-minded people, you should be able to play and enjoy any job nowadays. I don't know why people are in such a hurry that they want the most efficient party set up for everything. Playing the job you love and figuring out how to win can be so much more satisfying.

I have learned some things over the years by playing these types of games. And one of those is it's usually the same people who are the loudest complaining MMORPGs take too much time to play who end being the same exact people who are complaining the loudest about being bored with nothing left to do. Which leads me to my original point: which is that I believe the real problem here is MMORPGs for some reason attract a large amount of players who just don't like MMORPGs to begin with. They consider them a grind (that is the word they often use) find them boring and just want to get the experience over with as fast as possible. They don't want to have to play with others. They don't want to have to level up. They don't want to form groups. They don't want to have to replace their gear. They don't want to have to walk anywhere. They basically don't want to do anything associated with the genre really, but instead rush to the end and get the best stuff then complain about being bored.

I see this trend over and over and over again. And game companies trying to appeal to these types of players has literally butchered the genre into an unrecognizable mess, so much so that the developers really have no clue what their players want anymore. And to be fair to them, a lot of the players themselves really don't know either. So in a way I agree with you. The varying player base is the real issue.

But their complaint about time I feel is a misnomer. Because I've seen those same exact same people saying they have a life so that makes grinding impossible and that the MMORPG should be changed to suit their lifestyle spend all day on their couch playing other types of games. So it's not really a question about time. Because I can promise you most of those same people have no problem what-so-ever spending hours and hours playing other types of games they actually enjoy. It's just the simple fact they don't enjoy traditional MMORPG gameplay and have successfully enacted changes to this genre (destructive changes in my opinion) to turn the MMORPG into something it originally was not. And shouldn't be. At least that's how I feel about it.

[Dale]

Well, my point on "elitism" wasn't meant to single out XI; it's just a personal observation of the genre as a whole through my near 14 years of playing within it. Throughout my experience with games like Everquest back in the day, I don't think I ever came across someone crunching numbers or making note of optimal dps (or if they were, they at least didn't rub it in your face if you didn't perform to their standards.) Hell, even during my year or so of playing WoW during the pre-BC days, I was never ridiculed for my choices on gear or my talent spec (and I was definitely never kicked from a group for making a mistake or not knowing the perfect rotation.) I attribute that to the fact that the genre was still relatively new to most people so everyone was in that "I'm a total noob" phase, thus there wasn't as much of an experience gap. Things were still new and exciting and playing the game was still about fun. Now when I look at the end game atmosphere of just about any given mmorpg that I've been high enough to participate in (even newer ones) -- now that everything has been done to death, most of the secrets have been revealed, strategies for just about everything have been posted on a respective wiki page, etc -- I see a bunch of jaded veterans that only seem to find contentment with, as I mentioned above, incremental stat increases, increasing efficiency to a point of obsessive compulsion, and (for some apparently) berating others for not "doing it right."

Obviously I can't really speak for XI directly as I'm nowhere near endgame but I've seen it enough through other games. It's gotten to the point that I really don't do PUGs anymore or god forbid, pick up raids and the like. The environment just seems too stressful/hostile now for my taste and so much is expected even of new players -- at least from my own observations (YMMV.) I just wish people that followed that thought process could look back and remember that everyone starts new at some point and that these games should be about enjoyment and socialization -- not solely about raising your character's proficiency by another .001%.

You're totally right though; these games are always a million times better when played with friends and others that share a similar ideology in regards to fun. It's just a shame that the climate has changed to a point where people are actually hesitant to join PUGs anymore out of worry of being shat all over if they don't perform to some perfectionist standard -- and that's assuming they're even playing a "not worthless" class to begin with. I haven't looked into joining a linkshell yet, but you can rest assured I'll be going for one of the most "casual" I can find. I play these games for fun, not for competition (although, in fairness, I can understand that's a preferred play style for many.)

(*Ahem* Sorry for the rant.)
.

It didn't read like a rant to me :)

The elitism factor is something I've never been able to understand. Why it matters so much to certain players rather they kill a monster in 5 minutes or 6 minutes is a mystery to me. It seems to them everything must be done as quickly and efficiently as possible else you are worthless and need to go level something else. It's such an exhausting and demanding mentality I honestly don't know how these people go through life without suffering a heart attack.

Me personally, I am a laid back kind of guy. If it gets the job done, then it's just fine with me. My goal in all MMORPGs is to create a character who is the most fun for me to play. I really could care less about his DPS or HPS or any other per second calculation. So long as I am successful and having fun while doing it I consider it mission accomplished.

[kylani]

But their complaint about time I feel is a misnomer. Because I've seen those same exact same people saying they have a life so that makes grinding impossible and that the MMORPG should be changed to suit their lifestyle spend all day on their couch playing other types of games. So it's not really a question about time. Because I can promise you most of those same people have no problem what-so-ever spending hours and hours playing other types of games they actually enjoy. It's just the simple fact they don't enjoy traditional MMORPG gameplay and have successfully enacted changes to this genre (destructive changes in my opinion) to turn the MMORPG into something it originally was not. And shouldn't be. At least that's how I feel about it.

I agree with your comments, but I do think time was a factor in old style play. We had a great link shell with very good leaders, but it was so difficult getting together to get things done for folks and very time consuming. Missions, hunting NMs for jelly rings, joyeuse, kotes, etc., limit breaks, AF hunts, quested WS. They were fun, but they took up large blocks of time. It wasn't like we were running at break neck pace in the game. Every one seemed to need help, and much of it required large chunks of time.

And that's not including time to farm for your own gear, spells, etc just so you could party or be able to help. If you pugged back then, it was pretty much expected that you play for three hours. If you were tank or RDM, it was painful leaving a party. Our static group was better, but members got frustrated at what they considered was the slow pace because everyone had to try to stay at the same level on our static jobs. I enjoyed whatever I was doing, but I can tell you everyone differed, and time seemed to be the biggest issue.

I don't think it's a constraint now, but I remember scheduling being a huge frustration for the leaders. Maybe because we were a family oriented casual kin. For some, three hours is nothing (on a weekend back then, I could go 10) for others an hour is long. I'm sticking by time (from a scheduling perspective) being a big factor back then. :)

[Dale]

I agree with your comments, but I do think time was a factor in old style play. We had a great link shell with very good leaders, but it was so difficult getting together to get things done for folks and very time consuming. Missions, hunting NMs for jelly rings, joyeuse, kotes, etc., limit breaks, AF hunts, quested WS. They were fun, but they took up large blocks of time. It wasn't like we were running at break neck pace in the game. Every one seemed to need help, and much of it required large chunks of time.

And that's not including time to farm for your own gear, spells, etc just so you could party or be able to help. If you pugged back then, it was pretty much expected that you play for three hours. If you were tank or RDM, it was painful leaving a party. Our static group was better, but members got frustrated at what they considered was the slow pace because everyone had to try to stay at the same level on our static jobs. I enjoyed whatever I was doing, but I can tell you everyone differed, and time seemed to be the biggest issue.

I don't think it's a constraint now, but I remember scheduling being a huge frustration for the leaders. Maybe because we were a family oriented casual kin. For some, three hours is nothing (on a weekend back then, I could go 10) for others an hour is long. I'm sticking by time (from a scheduling perspective) being a big factor back then. :)

I'll concede that planning large events was difficult. Trying to get 18 people to show up for something at the same time was a chore. That's one reason why I prefer player-organized content to be kept to more reasonable numbers. But I don't think that's really an issue with the game taking too long to play. It's more of a problem with just trying to juggle the schedules of 18 different people, many of which don't even live in the same time zones. And that would be difficult to do on any game under any circumstance, no matter how it's paced. That's also why I prefer large content like that to be kept open to the public like besieged was for example.

Most of the examples you list where time was a factor was camping Notorious Monsters. And that's one of the main reasons why I believe Final Fantasy 11 in its original design failed. So you won't get any argument from me about how flawed of a system that was. Even if it only took 30 minutes, it would feel like 30 years just due to the boring nature its design. But to your point yes, it could take forever - literally all day for a NM to pop only to watch a gold seller snatch it from you so they could inflate the market even more, putting decent gear and items even further out of reach for new players. It's actually why I quit the game because I'm not going to pay money so I can sit around and be bored all day. So I agree with you about that too.

Where I do disagree with you though is the party system because and feel it was done well. It's true if you didn't have dependable friends it could be hard to consistently find groups. But I think that's necessary and I like how the original design encouraged and rewarded people for taking the time to build friendships and play together. The level sync function (which was added much later I understand) does fix the problem with static groups and players having to wait on others to level.

[kylani]

Where I do disagree with you though is the party system because and feel it was done well. It's true if you didn't have dependable friends it could be hard to consistently find groups. But I think that's necessary and I like how the original design encouraged and rewarded people for taking the time to build friendships and play together. The level sync function (which was added much later I understand) does fix the problem with static groups a players having to wait on others to level.

I mis-communicated if I indicated the party system wasn't well done. I loved partying, even before level sync, and then level sync was awesome. I met the friends in my ls from partying, and totally enjoyed it. However, I was RDM, and back then, I just had to log in to get a group. It wasn't necessarily that way for others, hence, the mana burns and monk burns, etc, but I LOVED the original format. I don't care how efficient DD burns are, I liked a group with different jobs working together, and even if it's inefficient, I loved the fun of pulling off skill chains and magic bursts. I know others who did too, but I suspect most would say, holding your TP is such a waste. I'm sure it is now, but I still fondly remember the joy of getting a freeze MB, and trying to save the BLM the times it didn't work out. :)

[Olor]

But their complaint about time I feel is a misnomer. Because I've seen those same exact same people saying they have a life so that makes grinding impossible and that the MMORPG should be changed to suit their lifestyle spend all day on their couch playing other types of games. So it's not really a question about time. Because I can promise you most of those same people have no problem what-so-ever spending hours and hours playing other types of games they actually enjoy. It's just the simple fact they don't enjoy traditional MMORPG gameplay and have successfully enacted changes to this genre (destructive changes in my opinion) to turn the MMORPG into something it originally was not. And shouldn't be. At least that's how I feel about it.

I dunno. I think people just grew older. It happens. Especially with an old game like this, which hasn't had a facelift in it's 12 years. I mean it looks awesome for a 12 year old game... but it is still a 12 year old game. I don't mind grinding at all. I mean, I have more than 500 hours on my pokemon X game, most of it spent breeding mons... that's not something that someone who hates grinding does.

That said, if pokemon made me walk across the map every time I wanted to check the IVs of my new mons, I would not find that fun. There is grinding, and there is simply wasting people's time. Riding the bike back and forth to hatch pokebabies is something I can handle, but if they took 'fly' out of the game I don't see that improving my experience. You know what I mean? You have to do the walk once, to unlock the area, and there are areas you still have to walk to if you want to go there, but most of my travel is done via fly. Heck they even added cabs to the main hub city so you don't need to walk to the different stores.

I don't think that removing the tedium of travel, for example, means that you hate MMOs. I just think it recognizes that the charm of spending a half an hour navigating a massive map really wears off after awhile... as does waiting 20 minutes for a ferry, which takes like 10 minutes to arrive at it's destination. That's just dead time. You're not even moving. Nor does it even put you on the damn boat if you happen to AFK.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Dale]

I mis-communicated if I indicated the party system wasn't well done. I loved partying, even before level sync, and then level sync was awesome. I met the friends in my ls from partying, and totally enjoyed it. However, I was RDM, and back then, I just had to log in to get a group. It wasn't necessarily that way for others, hence, the mana burns and monk burns, etc, but I LOVED the original format. I don't care how efficient DD burns are, I liked a group with different jobs working together, and even if it's inefficient, I loved the fun of pulling off skill chains and magic bursts. I know others who did too, but I suspect most would say, holding your TP is such a waste. I'm sure it is now, but I still fondly remember the joy of getting a freeze MB, and trying to save the BLM the times it didn't work out. :)

Ah ok, I thought you had issues with the old party format. Seems we pretty much agree about everything then :)

[Dale]

I dunno. I think people just grew older. It happens. Especially with an old game like this, which hasn't had a facelift in it's 12 years. I mean it looks awesome for a 12 year old game... but it is still a 12 year old game. I don't mind grinding at all. I mean, I have more than 500 hours on my pokemon X game, most of it spent breeding mons... that's not something that someone who hates grinding does.

That said, if pokemon made me walk across the map every time I wanted to check the IVs of my new mons, I would not find that fun. There is grinding, and there is simply wasting people's time. Riding the bike back and forth to hatch pokebabies is something I can handle, but if they took 'fly' out of the game I don't see that improving my experience. You know what I mean? You have to do the walk once, to unlock the area, and there are areas you still have to walk to if you want to go there, but most of my travel is done via fly. Heck they even added cabs to the main hub city so you don't need to walk to the different stores.

I don't think that removing the tedium of travel, for example, means that you hate MMOs. I just think it recognizes that the charm of spending a half an hour navigating a massive map really wears off after awhile... as does waiting 20 minutes for a ferry, which takes like 10 minutes to arrive at it's destination. That's just dead time. You're not even moving. Nor does it even put you on the damn boat if you happen to AFK.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

I don't really have a significant issue with speeding up travel, as long as it's not overdone and doesn't take away from the exploration of the game. So I got no real problems with the waypoints on this game if that's what you are referring too. Though I would prefer MMORPGs to work on ways to make long journeys abroad more dynamic instead of just allowing players to skip them because they can end up tedious.

What I'm talking about is when an MMORPG is reduced to basically an instance panel players open to go anywhere because they cant' be bothered to walk for a couple of minutes. If someone hates traveling or exploring areas then I maintain my original point, and that MMORPGs really aren't the type of games they should be playing. Because that has always been a very important part of the genre and part of what attract players like me to begin with.

I want to feel like I'm in an actual world. Not a lobby with a menu screen.

[Olor]

I want to feel like I'm in an actual world. Not a lobby with a menu screen.

I agree with you for sure, it's why something like PSO never really appealed to me.

That said, I really think FFXI has a good balance now. I mean, the world is still there, there are reasons to go out there... heck to be honest UNLOCKING the waypoints got me to go to places I had never bothered to go to before. Like I had never been to the base of the waterfall in Gustaberg before they put the waypoint there. Now, because it's easy to get to, I sometimes play around there, fishing or leveling my lower level jobs there - because it's quiet and pretty.

[Seillan]

It didn't read like a rant to me :)

The elitism factor is something I've never been able to understand. Why it matters so much to certain players rather they kill a monster in 5 minutes or 6 minutes is a mystery to me. It seems to them everything must be done as quickly and efficiently as possible else you are worthless and need to go level something else. It's such an exhausting and demanding mentality I honestly don't know how these people go through life without suffering a heart attack.

Me personally, I am a laid back kind of guy. If it gets the job done, then it's just fine with me. My goal in all MMORPGs is to create a character who is the most fun for me to play. I really could care less about his DPS or HPS or any other per second calculation. So long as I am successful and having fun while doing it I consider it mission accomplished.

Well said, couldn't agree more :).

[Glamdring]

I don't really have a significant issue with speeding up travel, as long as it's not overdone and doesn't take away from the exploration of the game. So I got no real problems with the waypoints on this game if that's what you are referring too. Though I would prefer MMORPGs to work on ways to make long journeys abroad more dynamic instead of just allowing players to skip them because they can end up tedious.

What I'm talking about is when an MMORPG is reduced to basically an instance panel players open to go anywhere because they cant' be bothered to walk for a couple of minutes. If someone hates traveling or exploring areas then I maintain my original point, and that MMORPGs really aren't the type of games they should be playing. Because that has always been a very important part of the genre and part of what attract players like me to begin with.

I want to feel like I'm in an actual world. Not a lobby with a menu screen.

I tend to agree with all you said. Oh, you beat the prior record for kill speed on X by 1 second? wow, you want a cookie with that? too bad, if the fight didn't drop a cookie you don't get one. because that's how impressed I am with your "accomplishment".

It's a game, I'm here to have some fun, with a reasonable, logical progression of effort to reward. I don't mind helping others, but if we take you in a PUG you need to pull your weight, we aren't putting in null slots just for you to collect drops and achievement points, player 6 in our party is still player 6 and so you are expected to do your part. However, there are easier ways to do some things so don't bitch at me if we lose doing a delve in a PUG of 3 runes, a thief, a smn and a geo in 117 gear because frankly it's not a good mix for the fight! And it was you pick-ups who insisted on trying it that way. Now, I don't believe in the cookie cutter as the only way to beat content and I've beaten enough content while breaking from the mold to know I'm right, but that still requires an intelligent build and smart play-generally smarter play actually, the cookiecutter strategies are designed around easy-mode for the fights.

now, as posted early on there are ways to set things up for rewards for vets to help 1st-timers. Using delve as the example since it's been used most in the thread, if you have already beaten the boss, for every member getting the KI you get 50k plasm and 2 airlixer +2. Was that hard to figure out? new games of course wouldn't be saddled with this mechanic, just have wins get you points, the more wins, the more points, and the points are exchanged for ALL the gear in the game; meaning if you just spam it enough the strongest piece of gear in the game is yours for putting the time in.

[Afania]

I tend to agree with all you said. Oh, you beat the prior record for kill speed on X by 1 second? wow, you want a cookie with that? too bad, if the fight didn't drop a cookie you don't get one. because that's how impressed I am with your "accomplishment".

It's a game, I'm here to have some fun, with a reasonable, logical progression of effort to reward. I don't mind helping others, but if we take you in a PUG you need to pull your weight, we aren't putting in null slots just for you to collect drops and achievement points, player 6 in our party is still player 6 and so you are expected to do your part. However, there are easier ways to do some things so don't bitch at me if we lose doing a delve in a PUG of 3 runes, a thief, a smn and a geo in 117 gear because frankly it's not a good mix for the fight! And it was you pick-ups who insisted on trying it that way. Now, I don't believe in the cookie cutter as the only way to beat content and I've beaten enough content while breaking from the mold to know I'm right, but that still requires an intelligent build and smart play-generally smarter play actually, the cookiecutter strategies are designed around easy-mode for the fights.

now, as posted early on there are ways to set things up for rewards for vets to help 1st-timers. Using delve as the example since it's been used most in the thread, if you have already beaten the boss, for every member getting the KI you get 50k plasm and 2 airlixer +2. Was that hard to figure out? new games of course wouldn't be saddled with this mechanic, just have wins get you points, the more wins, the more points, and the points are exchanged for ALL the gear in the game; meaning if you just spam it enough the strongest piece of gear in the game is yours for putting the time in.

Everyone has different opinion toward fun. For some ppl, it's more enjoyable to "challenge" themselves by playing better, or clear the content 1 sec faster.

Thus it's only reasonable if they only play with like minded players, since beating the content faster isn't your goal to begin with. If your goal is to play the game in a more relaxed pace, and another player's goal is to push his/her limit by playing better, what's the point to expect he/she to play with you? It'd only make both side's life hard.

This isn't elitism, it's just the human nature that not everyone can work together because every individual is different. I tend to try to push the event and get it done faster as well, but that's because that's one way I can have fun from doing the content...I can already clear all delve, it's not challenging/fun to clear them again. But it's challenging/fun to clear them faster than my previous run. I pay the game to have fun, just like you. What's wrong with trying to beat the content faster?

[Spectreman]

I can tell this is going to become one of those 80 page long threads with lots of bickering and personal attacks.

Indeed and i already start reporting. It's always the same people that are too bored with the game and maybe their lives to come here ONLY to bash others threads. I'm not a new player, i've been here since 2004 but i can imagine things outside my reality. And then came to my mind what would be a new generation MMORPG not about graphics or sandbox/themepark discussions but a new era of MMORPG where people actually get rewarded for helping others.

Hopefully there is a moderator in these forums and will notice the behaviour of people like Afania and do what is need to be done about it before these forums get a horrible reputation for those starting the game or those who just want to discuss things about MMORPGs.

[Dale]

Everyone has different opinion toward fun. For some ppl, it's more enjoyable to "challenge" themselves by playing better, or clear the content 1 sec faster.

Thus it's only reasonable if they only play with like minded players, since beating the content faster isn't your goal to begin with. If your goal is to play the game in a more relaxed pace, and another player's goal is to push his/her limit by playing better, what's the point to expect he/she to play with you? It'd only make both side's life hard.

This isn't elitism, it's just the human nature that not everyone can work together because every individual is different. I tend to try to push the event and get it done faster as well, but that's because that's one way I can have fun from doing the content...I can already clear all delve, it's not challenging/fun to clear them again. But it's challenging/fun to clear them faster than my previous run. I pay the game to have fun, just like you. What's wrong with trying to beat the content faster?

When people use the word elitism (at least when I use it) I don't think what they mean to describe are players who enjoy challenging themselves. It's more of a term to describe players who think they are better than others because they can do more damage or have better gear etc. So it's more of an attitude rather an actual play-style I think.

For example: those types of players who join a group then belittle others and tell them to quit and re-roll because they are playing a job they consider inferior. To me that is an example of elitism. And it happens too much in MMORPGs.

So I'll agree with you in the sense there is nothing wrong with a player wanting to challenge themselves. So long as it doesn't translate into that player treating others with disdain.

[Afania]

Indeed and i already start reporting. It's always the same people that are too bored with the game and maybe their lives to come here ONLY to bash others threads. I'm not a new player, i've been here since 2004 but i can imagine things outside my reality. And then came to my mind what would be a new generation MMORPG not about graphics or sandbox/themepark discussions but a new era of MMORPG where people actually get rewarded for helping others.

Hopefully there is a moderator in these forums and will notice the behaviour of people like Afania and do what is need to be done about it before these forums get a horrible reputation for those starting the game or those who just want to discuss things about MMORPGs.



I still don't understand exactly which post I ever wrote on this forum is "personal attack" or "unacceptable behavior". I suppose anything I say is "personal attack" to you because how you determine personal attack depend on who reply to the thread.

Hopefully there's a moderator that can tell the difference between a "personal attack" and presenting legit opinions in a discussion.

Oh and btw, I have reported you for threaten/harass other forum user as well. This forum isn't yours, I have right to use the forum. You have no right to tell others not to post opinions on the forum and label it as "personal attack" if you don't like their opinion.

[Afania]

When people use the word elitism (at least when I use it) I don't think what they mean to describe are players who enjoy challenging themselves. It's more of a term to describe players who think they are better than others because they can do more damage or have better gear etc. So it's more of an attitude rather an actual play-style I think.

For example: those types of players who join a group then belittle others and tell them to quit and re-roll because they are playing a job they consider inferior. To me that is an example of elitism. And it happens too much in MMORPGs.

So I'll agree with you in the sense there is nothing wrong with a player wanting to challenge themselves. So long as it doesn't translate into that player treating others with disdain.

Your description is more like "discrimination" rather than elitism though. There are players who thinks others are lazy/bad at the game, and there are players who think others are elitist/no lifers. Those are all discrimination. If anything, I've seen many "you have no life" comment just like "you suck" comment in this game and on the forum.

IMO elitism means demanding specific lv of gear, even though that lv of gear isn't required to complete the content. Like, insisting other players need a +1 attack ring or something similar.

[Camiie]

So far I haven't found a definition of elitism with a positive connotation.

From Wikipedia: Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken more seriously or carry more weight; whose views or actions are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

Dictionary.com: noun
1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

The Free Dictionary: e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

Although I think the word we're really looking for is exclusionary.

[Lithera]

No, it is elitism. Most who have an excessive amount of wealth, power, or intelligence do not treat their lessors with any decency. Only because they feel those people are a waste of their time and money and thus feel the need to exclude. also I don't think elitism has ever been viewed in a positive light by anyone, but those who are of the elite and their friends.

[mattkoko]

Hopefully there is a moderator in these forums and will notice the behaviour of people like Afania and do what is need to be done about it before these forums get a horrible reputation for those starting the game or those who just want to discuss things about MMORPGs.

If there was a moderator in these forums doing their job, they would have deleted this thread entirely by now. You said it yourself that this is not a thread about FFXI. And you claimed you would report those that are talking about FFXI. It is very hard to take you seriously when you tell people not to talk about FFXI in a FFXI forum. You should be the one being reported for starting a thread about MMOs in general but gtfo if you want to talk about FFXI.

In conclusion, you can't report people for talking about FFXI in a freakin FFXI forum lol.

[Malithar]

No, it is elitism. Most who have an excessive amount of wealth, power, or intelligence do not treat their lessors with any decency. Only because they feel those people are a waste of their time and money and thus feel the need to exclude. also I don't think elitism has ever been viewed in a positive light by anyone, but those who are of the elite and their friends.

So what do you call someone who plays at the top of their game, who gears for any and all situations that arise, yet treats others with respect and doesn't exclude beyond typical exclusionary barriers (6 person limit, need x job, etc)? Your definition and assertion that any and all who might be "elite" are automatic dicks is pretty insulting.

[Afania]

No, it is elitism. Most who have an excessive amount of wealth, power, or intelligence do not treat their lessors with any decency. Only because they feel those people are a waste of their time and money and thus feel the need to exclude. also I don't think elitism has ever been viewed in a positive light by anyone, but those who are of the elite and their friends.

I don't agree with you. Some ppl tend to treat others bad, not because they have "excessive amount of wealth, power or intelligence", but because they have terrible personality. Even if they're not "elite", they're still going to treat others like that. Your action has nothing to do with status, wealth and power.

Also most of the "elites" exclude other ppl not because they look down on others, but because they need to get things done.

I want to work for Microsoft, but how come Microsoft doesn't hire me? Is it because they have wealth/power and look down on me? No, it's because my skill and ability can't help them get things done!

[Seillan]

I don't agree with you. Some ppl tend to treat others bad, not because they have "excessive amount of wealth, power or intelligence", but because they have terrible personality. Even if they're not "elite", they're still going to treat others like that. Your action has nothing to do with status, wealth and power.

Also most of the "elites" exclude other ppl not because they look down on others, but because they need to get things done.

I want to work for Microsoft, but how come Microsoft doesn't hire me? Is it because they have wealth/power and look down on me? No, it's because my skill and ability can't help them get things done!

Comparing the qualifications involved in getting a highly competitive job at a mufti-billion dollar company to getting a spot in a group on a video game? This is the reason some of us around here will never see eye to eye.

It's a game, not a job. Yes, everyone still wants to get something done, but I for one don't give a damn if progress takes a bit longer because we didn't play with the most optimum party setup or because we allowed a new player the chance to see and experience content he or she would have otherwise possibly not seen for a long time (if ever.) Hell, I just consider it extra challenge, if anything. And besides, how are inexperienced players supposed to get that "skill and ability" if those with experience are so fixated on their own personal gain that they never give said inexperienced player a chance? Everyone has to learn somewhere/sometime, after all.

[Camiie]

Whether in a game setting or in real life people tend to forget how things were when they were just getting started somewhere. They forget that there was a time when they were less than optimal and didn't know everything. That annoying, ignorant rookie used to be you and someone wasted their valuable time on you or you wouldn't have got to where you are today. The fact that you're unwilling to pay that forward says more about you than it does the undergeared and unprepared newbie.

[Seillan]

Whether in a game setting or in real life people tend to forget how things were when they were just getting started somewhere. They forget that there was a time when they were less than optimal and didn't know everything. That annoying, ignorant rookie used to be you and someone wasted their valuable time on you or you wouldn't have got to where you are today. The fact that you're unwilling to pay that forward says more about you than it does the undergeared and unprepared newbie.

Ha, you said what I almost put right at the end of my post. I think you're exactly right that some players seem to lose sight of what it was like to be "wet behind the ears" after they've been playing games like this for a long time. I'd argue that it's actually one of the largest barriers of entry that new players face in older games, since they tend to be substantially top-heavy by those that have seen and done it all. That's what I mean when I talk about "elitism" -- putting personal gain over the human element of the genre. If you want a game to continue to grow and prosper, you should take time (even if only occasionally) to help inexperienced players get to a point where they can effectively contribute, rather than ostracize them for being "bad" -- which does more harm than good in the long run.

[Afania]

Comparing the qualifications involved in getting a highly competitive job at a mufti-billion dollar company to getting a spot in a group on a video game? This is the reason some of us around here will never see eye to eye.

It's a game, not a job. Yes, everyone still wants to get something done, but I for one don't give a damn if progress takes a bit longer because we didn't play with the most optimum party setup or because we allowed a new player the chance to see and experience content he or she would have otherwise possibly not seen for a long time (if ever.) Hell, I just consider it extra challenge, if anything. And besides, how are inexperienced players supposed to get that "skill and ability" if those with experience are so fixated on their own personal gain that they never give said inexperienced player a chance? Everyone has to learn somewhere/sometime, after all.


It doesn't matter if it's a position in a multi-billion dollar company or a spot in a video game, human mind works the same way, and make decisions in the same way.....if they can invite the others to do the job better, or play with friends/ls mate they like, that's why random stranger don't get a spot.

If you don't care about the optimal setup, that's good. But you can't ask others to act the same way as you.

Although I agree that new players need a chance to learn and gear, the fact is that there's also a chance that they leech for advantage and leave. I've seen too many, I went out and spend my time to get ppl gear and get 0 benefit, then they depop, change LS or quit after they get what they want.

If you've ever been in a ls leader position, leading harder endgame events such as legion before SoA, while dealing with the complexity of human nature left and right, you'd probably have different opinion toward "getting a spot in a video game". Because it's a lot more than "just another spot in a video game".


Afania, please stop making posts. You're now at an even 1,000 posts so any more would ruin you forever.

OP raged because my post are considered "trolling and off topic" to him, I wonder why he didn't rage at you.

Double standard I suppose.

[Afania]

Ha, you said what I almost put right at the end of my post. I think you're exactly right that some players seem to lose sight of what it was like to be "wet behind the ears" after they've been playing games like this for a long time. I'd argue that it's actually one of the largest barriers of entry that new players face in older games, since they tend to be substantially top-heavy by those that have seen and done it all. That's what I mean when I talk about "elitism" -- putting personal gain over the human element of the genre. If you want a game to continue to grow and prosper, you should take time (even if only occasionally) to help inexperienced players get to a point where they can effectively contribute, rather than ostracize them for being "bad" -- which does more harm than good in the long run.

I think half of the "you're bad" comment came from doing weird decision instead of being inexperienced though. If you're a new player telling the pt "I don't have experience, please tell me what to do", most ppl are willing to give suggestions and won't go all out raging at them if they parse low or anything.

Most of the "you're bad" comment I've seen in this game direct toward ppl wearing very good gears, but unable to use them effectively. Such as SAM using tsuru or mythic wearing full 119 armor set got outparsed by a BLU.....and the list goes on.

[Seillan]

If you've ever been in a ls leader position, leading harder endgame events such as legion before SoA, while dealing with the complexity of human nature left and right, you'd probably have different opinion toward "getting a spot in a video game". Because it's a lot more than "just another spot in a video game".

I've been in similar positions during my time in quite a few other mmorpgs over the years and honestly... no, my opinion wasn't any different after those experiences. At the end of the day, it's just a video game. It's here for fun and relaxation. As soon as people start turning it into some kind of e-sport -- where winning is everything, and all else takes a back seat -- that's when I start scratching my head. I'd have to refer back to Dale's post earlier where he wondered how people with that mindset get through life without a heart attack. I'm inclined to agree. Why take something like this so seriously? It's a pastime activity; nothing more.

Granted some people enjoy playing efficiently and that's all they want to do, but I think everyone needs to stop and remember (especially if they're the type of person that berates less experienced/skilled players) that they were new once too. I'd wager that every single vet of this game and any other online game, has had quite a few boost ups and helping hands from other players during their journey. That shouldn't be a rarity just because a game gets to the twilight years of its life.


I think half of the "you're bad" comment came from doing weird decision instead of being inexperienced though. If you're a new player telling the pt "I don't have experience, please tell me what to do", most ppl are willing to give suggestions and won't go all out raging at them if they parse low or anything.

Most of the "you're bad" comment I've seen in this game direct toward ppl wearing very good gears, but unable to use them effectively. Such as SAM using tsuru or mythic wearing full 119 armor set got outparsed by a BLU.....and the list goes on.

On that note, I'd argue that some people might just have a harder time adapting and learning to excel with their class. Or it could be an older player with bad arthritis so they're not quite as quick on the draw as others. They may be trying their damnedest but still come up short for an issue they can't control. Of course, if someone fits a description like that, it's best if they don't attempt demanding content with a PUG group, but I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't brighten my day a little to see a random group accept a player like that, despite the loss in efficiency, just to help that person see and do something they probably couldn't have otherwise. That's the kind of community spirit I like to see in a game, and it's unfortunately something I haven't seen much since my days in UO and Asheron's Call.

[mattkoko]

OP raged because my post are considered "trolling and off topic" to him, I wonder why he didn't rage at you.

Double standard I suppose.

What I find funny is the OP said he would report anyone that is off topic (even though this thread has been off topic from post one since it is not suppose to be about FFXI) and she would report anyone that makes personal attacks. Then he calls you troll fingers and singles you out personally multiple times. Now if that is not a personal attack, idk what is. So Spectreman, you made a personal attack. Report yourself at once!

And speaking of personal attacks, Zachery, your beard is ugly and it pisses me off. Shave it now! I know this may get me reported but since this entire thread was a joke to begin with, I figured wtf, might as well have some fun.

[mattkoko]

I've been in similar positions during my time in quite a few other mmorpgs over the years and honestly... no, my opinion wasn't any different after those experiences. At the end of the day, it's just a video game. It's here for fun and relaxation. As soon as people start turning it into some kind of e-sport -- where winning is everything, and all else takes a back seat -- that's when I start scratching my head. I'd have to refer back to Dale's post earlier where he wondered how people with that mindset get through life without a heart attack. I'm inclined to agree. Why take something like this so seriously? It's a pastime activity; nothing more.

I guess I should add to the discussion at least a little bit. Not to defend people that treat games like an E-sport, but you also have to realize that for some people, this is all they have. I know a few friends back in my old LS that really took the game seriously that were paralyzed or wheelchair bound, cant work/cant play sports etc. Everyone has their own story. Now this is not to say they should be disrespectful to others. Just saying that some people that take stuff like this seriously, for some of them, this could be all they have.



Granted some people enjoy playing efficiently and that's all they want to do, but I think everyone needs to stop and remember (especially if they're the type of person that berates less experienced/skilled players) that they were new once too. I'd wager that every single vet of this game and any other online game, has had quite a few boost ups and helping hands from other players during their journey. That shouldn't be a rarity just because a game gets to the twilight years of its life.

I agree, a lot of people do forget that everyone is new at some point. It's funny because I am a teacher and when I was new to teaching, sometimes I would make the mistake of saying to the kids, "what where you thinking" and then realize that I was no different when I was younger. I wasn't thinking. Putting the fork in the socket sounded fun at the time. Mommy told me not to do it, but I gotta find out for myself if it will shoot me through the back wall or not. Anyway, back on topic. A lot of us have been playing this game for years and it is easy to forget how we were when we first started. I do my best to remember how I started and I do try to help as much as possible, however, I also understand that there are people that take advantage. I mean, I don't ask for much in return. Appreciation is always nice. But, there have been many people I have helped, and then when someone else needs help or I need help, those same people will refuse or they just wont answer. Some people take take take take and never contribute back. So, I am much more careful with who I choose to help for that reason. For a while, I was so busy helping others that I wasn't getting anything done for myself and I burned myself out because of it. Because once people find out who helps out the most, some keep going back for more and asking that person and may not even realize they are taking advantage of that person. It is great when everyone contributes but not everyone does. And those that have had these similar experiences with helping may be more reluctant to help unless they know the person. By the way, it is alright to be new to the game. As mentioned above, everyone is new at some point. But there are also some people that need their hands held through absolutely everything. I mean if I am going to help, at least make some effort to meet me half way rather then just be dead weight all the time.



On that note, I'd argue that some people might just have a harder time adapting and learning to excel with their class. Or it could be an older player with bad arthritis so they're not quite as quick on the draw as others. They may be trying their damnedest but still come up short for an issue they can't control. Of course, if someone fits a description like that, it's best if they don't attempt demanding content with a PUG group, but I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't brighten my day a little to see a random group accept a player like that, despite the loss in efficiency, just to help that person see and do something they probably couldn't have otherwise. That's the kind of community spirit I like to see in a game, and it's unfortunately something I haven't seen much since my days in UO and Asheron's Call.

I kind of already covered a little of this above but again, I agree that everyone has their story and we just don't know what health issues some may suffer along with people that have learning disabilities that may not be as quick on the draw. It is also easy for someone who is capable (by the way this is not directed at you, I understand what you are saying) to say that they just shouldn't attempt demanding content, but a lot of people with these physical disorders may also think that if they don't at least try, then the disorder (what ever it may be) wins. I will use another RL example. My dad recently hurt his shoulder and he has a hard time throwing a ball. And he is a pretty active guy. And even though he knows he shouldn't push himself, he does anyway because he wants to prove he can still contribute just as much as he was able to before. Some people just refuse to give in so they can try to fit in with the rest. In the game setting, it is unfortunate that a lot of people are just very quick to judge. It's much easier to say, "okay this person sucks, lets just kick him/her and try to find someone else." Sad but true.

On a side note that does not add anything to the discussion in the least, my brother used to play Asheron's Call. Haven't heard about that game in a while haha. The memories.

[Afania]

I've been in similar positions during my time in quite a few other mmorpgs over the years and honestly... no, my opinion wasn't any different after those experiences. At the end of the day, it's just a video game. It's here for fun and relaxation. As soon as people start turning it into some kind of e-sport -- where winning is everything, and all else takes a back seat -- that's when I start scratching my head. I'd have to refer back to Dale's post earlier where he wondered how people with that mindset get through life without a heart attack. I'm inclined to agree. Why take something like this so seriously? It's a pastime activity; nothing more.

Granted some people enjoy playing efficiently and that's all they want to do, but I think everyone needs to stop and remember (especially if they're the type of person that berates less experienced/skilled players) that they were new once too. I'd wager that every single vet of this game and any other online game, has had quite a few boost ups and helping hands from other players during their journey. That shouldn't be a rarity just because a game gets to the twilight years of its life.



I don't know about the difficulty/event execution in other MMO you've played, so I can't comment. But I still think you're just forcing your own POV toward gaming on others, and you can't accept the fact that not everyone has same opinion as you.

Anyways, my point stands, ppl tend to play with like minded players. You need to realize there are ppl different from you, with different POV toward gaming, and they have right to pick who they play with.



On that note, I'd argue that some people might just have a harder time adapting and learning to excel with their class. Or it could be an older player with bad arthritis so they're not quite as quick on the draw as others. They may be trying their damnedest but still come up short for an issue they can't control. Of course, if someone fits a description like that, it's best if they don't attempt demanding content with a PUG group, but I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't brighten my day a little to see a random group accept a player like that, despite the loss in efficiency, just to help that person see and do something they probably couldn't have otherwise. That's the kind of community spirit I like to see in a game, and it's unfortunately something I haven't seen much since my days in UO and Asheron's Call.

Well, it doesn't matter if the actual reason is because they're old, slow learner, or wife/kid aggro every 5 sec, it's hard to deny the fact that it's rather frustrating when that happen.

You can't demand others to accept everyone, it's their money, and they pay to enjoy the game. It's obviously a "nice" thing to do if everyone in the same pt has same opinion, but it's not a responsibility.

Personally, if I'm going to accept a random stranger/newer player, I tend to ask other's opinion, see if they're willing to accept it. Because as a pt lead I need to respect others time and their $12 a month, which they pay to have fun, not to wipe. Even if I do I often put them on easier roles that'd affect with the performance less, such as THF, BRD or GEO.

There's a lot more than just "you're not nice if you don't invite new player", a leader needs to communicate with others, make sure they can accept a pt like this. If you just force through it because you want to be "nice", it often won't end well. When you deal with a LS with 20 ppl, it's even harder to sort that out.

Also, at least 80% of the time, helping a new player doesn't end very well when they start to depop/backstabbing/quit/change LS. That's another reason why many players don't sacrifice their own time to help new players anymore.

It's just not something as simple as "I wish the community should be nice, so I'd rather invite newer player and point fingers at everyone else that's not inviting newer players".

I don't think ppl forget they're new once, it's just that there are many outside factor affecting the decision when they choose not to play with others.

[Seillan]

I guess I should add to the discussion at least a little bit. Not to defend people that treat games like an E-sport, but you also have to realize that for some people, this is all they have. I know a few friends back in my old LS that really took the game seriously that were paralyzed or wheelchair bound, cant work/cant play sports etc. Everyone has their own story. Now this is not to say they should be disrespectful to others. Just saying that some people that take stuff like this seriously, for some of them, this could be all they have.




I agree, a lot of people do forget that everyone is new at some point. It's funny because I am a teacher and when I was new to teaching, sometimes I would make the mistake of saying to the kids, "what where you thinking" and then realize that I was no different when I was younger. I wasn't thinking. Putting the fork in the socket sounded fun at the time. Mommy told me not to do it, but I gotta find out for myself if it will shoot me through the back wall or not. Anyway, back on topic. A lot of us have been playing this game for years and it is easy to forget how we were when we first started. I do my best to remember how I started and I do try to help as much as possible, however, I also understand that there are people that take advantage. I mean, I don't ask for much in return. Appreciation is always nice. But, there have been many people I have helped, and then when someone else needs help or I need help, those same people will refuse or they just wont answer. Some people take take take take and never contribute back. So, I am much more careful with who I choose to help for that reason. For a while, I was so busy helping others that I wasn't getting anything done for myself and I burned myself out because of it. Because once people find out who helps out the most, some keep going back for more and asking that person and may not even realize they are taking advantage of that person. It is great when everyone contributes but not everyone does. And those that have had these similar experiences with helping may be more reluctant to help unless they know the person. By the way, it is alright to be new to the game. As mentioned above, everyone is new at some point. But there are also some people that need their hands held through absolutely everything. I mean if I am going to help, at least make some effort to meet me half way rather then just be dead weight all the time.




I kind of already covered a little of this above but again, I agree that everyone has their story and we just don't know what health issues some may suffer along with people that have learning disabilities that may not be as quick on the draw. It is also easy for someone whose capable (by the way this is not directed at you, I understand what you are saying) to say that they just shouldn't attempt demanding content, but a lot of people with these physical disorders may also think that if they don't at least try, then the disorder (what ever it may be) wins. I will use another RL example. My dad recently hurt his shoulder and he has a hard time throwing a ball. And he is a pretty active guy. And even though he knows he shouldn't push himself, he does anyway because he wants to prove he can still contribute just as much as he was able to before. Some people just refuse to give in so they can try to fit in with the rest. In the game setting, it is unfortunate that a lot of people are just very quick to judge. It's much easier to say, "okay this person sucks, lets just kick him/her and try to find someone else." Sad but true.

All great points, and I agree. That's actually one of my favorite things about the mmorpg genre -- it's a great escape for people that are disabled and/or otherwise not able to get out and about very easily in RL. I didn't mean to invalidate that kind of use for a game like this, so I'm sorry if that's how it came across. Truth be told, I suppose I use these games somewhat like that myself. I've got a couple of bum shoulders (so I can definitely relate with your dad) and it can hinder what I'm able to do, especially things involving more physical activity. In-game I'm able to forget about those disabilities and that's something I'd never take for granted. I guess when I say "take the game too seriously," I'm referring more to those that act as if it's a serious event or loss (sometimes even eliciting naming and shaming) if things don't go totally according to plan. All I can think to myself in those situations is, "Man, lighten up." Not that I've noticed that happening particularly often in the games I've played in the past, but it does happen and it's a real buzz kill.

I can also see your point about some people taking a mile when they're given an inch (which Afania also pointed out earlier.) I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at first, but I can understand that after you've been burned quite a few times, it can start to take its toll. Nonetheless, I always try to keep in mind that there's also the chance the person you're helping will not only appreciate the assistance, but might also become a regular, constructive member of the community. It's the whole "good with the bad" kind of thing. It makes me think of a somewhat apt analogy that goes along with an accounting class I'm taking for my major: It talks about businesses that sell on credit and the losses they sometimes incur due to "bad debt." They ask the question, "Why do companies sell on credit when they risk losing a sometimes considerable portion to delinquent accounts?" They do so because it's worth the risk in the end when their bottom line is in the green and rising. I'd like to think that a larger portion of new players would be like the trustworthy credit customers, rather than those with the written off accounts. But yeah, unfortunately it doesn't always work that way.


On a side note that does not add anything to the discussion in the least, my brother used to play Asheron's Call. Haven't heard about that game in a while haha. The memories.

It's an oldie but goodie, indeed. I haven't played it in years but it's still chugging along. The company running it (Turbine) is apparently working on making private servers available for the game, which I guess means the official game is close to sun setting. It's sad but it's nice to see such an awesome gesture (the private server functionality I mean) from developers that truly seem to care about their game and the players in it.

[Seillan]

I don't know about the difficulty/event execution in other MMO you've played, so I can't comment. But I still think you're just forcing your own POV toward gaming on others, and you can't accept the fact that not everyone has same opinion as you.

Anyways, my point stands, ppl tend to play with like minded players. You need to realize there are ppl different from you, with different POV toward gaming, and they have right to pick who they play with.



Well, it doesn't matter if the actual reason is because they're old, slow learner, or wife/kid aggro every 5 sec, it's hard to deny the fact that it's rather frustrating when that happen.

You can't demand others to accept everyone, it's their money, and they pay to enjoy the game. It's obviously a "nice" thing to do if everyone in the same pt has same opinion, but it's not a responsibility.

Personally, if I'm going to accept a random stranger/newer player, I tend to ask other's opinion, see if they're willing to accept it. Because as a pt lead I need to respect others time and their $12 a month, which they pay to have fun, not to wipe. Even if I do I often put them on easier roles that'd affect with the performance less, such as THF, BRD or GEO.

There's a lot more than just "you're not nice if you don't invite new player", a leader needs to communicate with others, make sure they can accept a pt like this. If you just force through it because you want to be "nice", it often won't end well. When you deal with a LS with 20 ppl, it's even harder to sort that out.

It's just not something as simple as "I wish the community should be nice, so I'd rather invite newer player and point fingers at everyone else that's not inviting newer players".

I don't really see where I'm "demanding" anything, but think what you want. I'm also not saying that my POV is the only way, as I've stated numerous times that I understand people have different play styles. All I'm saying is that it doesn't hurt to show a little selflessness and consideration to people sometimes. It's as simple as that. Unfortunately, that seems to be asking far too much of some people and I just find it sad. The growth of the community and a civil, friendly, and helpful environment is just as important to veterans (maybe even more so, considering they are likely the most invested in the game and undoubtedly want it to continue on as long as possible) as it is to the new players having a hard time getting up to speed.

[Afania]

All great points, and I agree. That's actually one of my favorite things about the mmorpg genre -- it's a great escape for people that are disabled and/or otherwise not able to get out and about very easily in RL. I didn't mean to invalidate that kind of use for a game like this, so I'm sorry if that's how it came across. Truth be told, I suppose I use these games somewhat like that myself. I've got a couple of bum shoulders (so I can definitely relate with your dad) and it can hinder what I'm able to do, especially things involving more physical activity. In-game I'm able to forget about those disabilities and that's something I'd never take for granted. I guess when I say "take the game too seriously," I'm referring more to those that act as if it's a serious event or loss (sometimes even eliciting naming and shaming) if things don't go totally according to plan. All I can think to myself in those situations is, "Man, lighten up." Not that I've noticed that happening particularly often in the games I've played in the past, but it does happen and it's a real buzz kill.

I can also see your point about some people taking a mile when they're given an inch (which Afania also pointed out earlier.) I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at first, but I can understand that after you've been burned quite a few times, it can start to take its toll. Nonetheless, I always try to keep in mind that there's also the chance the person you're helping will not only appreciate the assistance, but might also become a regular, constructive member of the community. It's the whole "good with the bad" kind of thing. It makes me think of a somewhat apt analogy that goes along with an accounting class I'm taking for my major: It talks about businesses that sell on credit and the losses they sometimes incur due to "bad debt." They ask the question, "Why do companies sell on credit when they risk losing a sometimes considerable portion to delinquent accounts?" They do so because it's worth the risk in the end when their bottom line is in the green and rising. I'd like to think that a larger portion of new players would be like the trustworthy credit customers, rather than those with the written off accounts. But yeah, unfortunately it doesn't always work that way.



It's an oldie but goodie, indeed. I haven't played it in years but it's still chugging along. The company running it (Turbine) is apparently working on making private servers available for the game, which I guess means the official game is close to sun setting. It's sad but it's nice to see such an awesome gesture from developers that truly seem to care about their game and the players in it.

Seillan, if you want to sacrifice your time to help newer players, just do it, then maybe you'll understand why majority of the players choose not to do it. Because I really can't help you understand the frustration/sacrifice you'd go through to fulfill your ideal unless you've experience it yourself.

You may change your mind about helping others after the frustration/sacrifice you experience them, maybe you won't change your mind, idk. Many friends of mine did vent/rage after the frustration, I admit I probably help other players less in recent years as well.

Either way, instead of pointing fingers like "why aren't you helping newer players", I think you should try it, if you insist on helping others, maybe one day it'd inspire and affect others, so the community become more helpful as a whole.

Until then, pointing fingers doesn't solve this issue, label every player not helping/accepting new players in events as "elitist" also doesn't solve the issue, it only emphasized the wrong issue......not helping others nor inviting newer player has nothing to do with disrespect.



All I'm saying is that it doesn't hurt to show a little selflessness and consideration to people sometimes.

Unfortunately, it does. I've seen multiple friends who collapsed due to several reasons because they tried to help others.

[Seillan]

Seillan, if you want to sacrifice your time to help newer players, just do it, then maybe you'll understand why majority of the players choose not to do it. Because I really can't help you understand the frustration/sacrifice you'd go through to fulfill your ideal unless you've experienced it yourself.

You may change your mind about helping others after the frustration/sacrifice you experience them, maybe you won't change your mind, idk. Many friends of mine did vent/rage after the frustration, I admit I probably help other players less in recent years as well.

Either way, instead of pointing fingers like "why aren't you helping newer players", I think you should try it, if you insist on helping others, maybe one day it'd inspire and affect others, so the community become more helpful as a whole.

Until then, pointing fingers doesn't solve this issue, label every player not helping/accepting new players in events as "elitist" also doesn't solve the issue, it only emphasized the wrong issue......not helping others nor inviting newer player has nothing to do with disrespect.




Unfortunately, it does. I've seen multiple friends who collapsed due to several reasons because they tried to help others.

Like I said in my post above, I've played many games to end game level and my opinion didn't change. I have no problem helping new players in a game that I'm already well-establish (or even if I'm not, but I'm still able to help in some way) and I will continue to do so because I care about the community in whatever game I'm playing. I'd like to think that's not a totally dissenting ideology these days.

[Afania]

I've been in similar positions during my time in quite a few other mmorpgs over the years and honestly... no, my opinion wasn't any different after those experiences.

Oh and btw, one of the major difference between FFXI and other MMO is, FFXI has a very, very small endgame community, there no cross server pt finder function.

Most of the player do endgame regularly knows each other very well, even if they're in different LS. If a pt lead often invite newer player and make less efficient pt, most of the players in endgame community would /blist him or label the leader as "bad lead".

And vice versa, if a pt leader always make efficient runs, every top tier player would join his pt more often.

So it became a vicious circle, a leader who often invite newer player will have harder time to clear the content, because all the experienced player would avoid his pt like a plague, and vice versa. So it's even harder for those players to gear up efficiently nor learn from vet because they're stuck with other newer players.

It's really not as simple as "Hey, I want to help this new player, I'll invite him, so he can gear up and learn from other vets and get better".

If you insist to invite new players, that's fine. But that's one major issue you may face, personally idk a good way to solve it.

[Camiie]

It just seems like a lot of people join what's supposed to be a social game and then act completely anti-social. Maybe that's how they are in real life. Maybe in real life they've always been "the loser" and finally have a chance to reverse their role. I just have to wonder why, if dealing with people is such a pain, why even bother with a game that requires dealing with others? There are many games to play and many other activities to participate in that one can do without ever having to put up with "gimps" and "noobs." Why not do those instead?

[Comeatmebro]

i've brought undergeared people to more free delves than everyone in this thread added together

the problem is it doesn't fix anything, you start bringing someone who can't pull their weight and many of them just expect you to keep doing so.. it's not enough to get someone every delve win, then they want to be carried through high-tier BCs and such.. people who don't care to put effort in aren't going to suddenly start just because they have the gear to get into groups

helping a few people get 119 gear is nice and all, but unless you're prepared to permanently add them to your static/linkshell/pre-shout recruitment list/harem, they're just going to be back where they were looking a little shinier

no one person or group can solve this problem, for everyone to be able to advance there needs to be someone willing to lead for every 5-8 people willing to do an event.. and there isn't, period

[Afania]

It just seems like a lot of people join what's supposed to be a social game and then act completely anti-social. Maybe that's how they are in real life. Maybe in real life they've always been "the loser" and finally have a chance to reverse their role. I just have to wonder why, if dealing with people is such a pain, why even bother with a game that requires dealing with others? There are many games to play and many other activities to participate in that one can do without ever having to put up with "gimps" and "noobs." Why not do those instead?


Seems like you have strong hatred toward ppl that doesn't play with others lol. There are 0 evidence/scientific research to prove that players that are anti-social in game are "the loser" irl. If anything, I know plenty of players only play with close friend/mules/husband/wife has a proper job and family. The above opinion is just your imagination and personal hatred toward the others.

[Lithera]

Seems like you have strong hatred toward ppl that doesn't play with others lol. There are 0 evidence/scientific research to prove that players that are anti-social in game are "the loser" irl. If anything, I know plenty of players only play with close friend/mules/husband/wife has a proper job and family. The above opinion is just your imagination and personal hatred toward the others.
You can still have a "proper" job and still be seen as a loser by others around you. Also you misunderstood what they meant.

[Dale]

Your description is more like "discrimination" rather than elitism though. There are players who thinks others are lazy/bad at the game, and there are players who think others are elitist/no lifers. Those are all discrimination. If anything, I've seen many "you have no life" comment just like "you suck" comment in this game and on the forum.

IMO elitism means demanding specific lv of gear, even though that lv of gear isn't required to complete the content. Like, insisting other players need a +1 attack ring or something similar.

My description of elitism was in reference to a players attitude toward others they feel are inferior to them for what ever reasons. Discrimination is a possible result of elitism.

But to touch on some of your later postings: picking and choosing who you play with is one thing. If you want to create a group that consists only of players who play jobs you find acceptable that is entirely your right. But unfortunately this kind of elitism rarely stays so focused, and it becomes commonplace in how these players deal with others on a regular basis. Because I've had players come into groups that I created or a friend of mine created and then start mocking other players in the group and telling them their job sucks and they need to re-roll. And this is what I have a problem with.

So in other words: if players want to get together and create a samurai-only club then be my guest. But I think this kind of attitude needs to stay inside the club. When it permeates into the general public it becomes toxic. Because a lot of us do not share in these kind of opinions (and let's be clear, it is just an opinion) that only certain jobs, gear, play-styles etc. are acceptable and everyone else should be scorned or ostracized.

[Dale]

So what do you call someone who plays at the top of their game, who gears for any and all situations that arise, yet treats others with respect and doesn't exclude beyond typical exclusionary barriers (6 person limit, need x job, etc)? Your definition and assertion that any and all who might be "elite" are automatic dicks is pretty insulting.

I think you might be misunderstanding what Lithera is saying.

You can perform at the top of your game without thinking you're elite and others are inferior. So being an elitist really isn't about playing well or taking the time to have the best gear. It's more about someone thinking they are better than others and treating them that way. It's just that you find this kind of attitude more often on those who have the best gear or do perform better than others because it tends to go to their head.

On the flip side though: someone can be an elitist and be horrible at the game and die all the time. They just think they are really good and better than others. So again: it's more about their attitude and having a sense of superiority over others. I think that is what she means when she uses the word elitism.

No one here is trying to cast a negative light on players simply for being well-prepared and playing at the top of their game. Least I hope not.

[Dale]

i've brought undergeared people to more free delves than everyone in this thread added together

the problem is it doesn't fix anything, you start bringing someone who can't pull their weight and many of them just expect you to keep doing so.. it's not enough to get someone every delve win, then they want to be carried through high-tier BCs and such.. people who don't care to put effort in aren't going to suddenly start just because they have the gear to get into groups

helping a few people get 119 gear is nice and all, but unless you're prepared to permanently add them to your static/linkshell/pre-shout recruitment list/harem, they're just going to be back where they were looking a little shinier

no one person or group can solve this problem, for everyone to be able to advance there needs to be someone willing to lead for every 5-8 people willing to do an event.. and there isn't, period

I don't really think there needs to be a leader. Players should be able to just get together and do an event. For example: when I get a few friends together to go kill some notorious monsters or do a skirmish I wouldn't really qualify me as being their leader simply because I asked if they wanted to go do something with me.

Part of the problem in MMORPGs is some players tend to be over-dependent on this idea they need someone to lead them - to tell them exactly what to do and how to play. And this can be very stressful on that one individual who feels success or failure is their sole responsibility simply because they asked if others want to join them. And this is probably why you see so many people unwilling to do it. But the truth is everyone should accept equal responsibility when joining an event, and not attempt to pass all decisions and consequences onto a single person.

There is another angle to this though: and that is you have these video game dictators who think just because you are in his or her group that gives them the power to control you and be their obedient pawn. So there is extremes on both ends and neither is constructive to enjoying the game.

[Comeatmebro]

linkshell events or events between friends don't really need a leader, but shout groups certainly do because you'll get people who've never done the event before, people who do the event different ways, etc.. if everyone just does it their own way it's usually not going to end well

[Dale]

linkshell events or events between friends don't really need a leader, but shout groups certainly do because you'll get people who've never done the event before, people who do the event different ways, etc.. if everyone just does it their own way it's usually not going to end well

I understand what you are saying. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I believe people can find a way to work together without needing to depend on any one person for guidance.

[Glamdring]

No, it is elitism. Most who have an excessive amount of wealth, power, or intelligence do not treat their lessors with any decency. Only because they feel those people are a waste of their time and money and thus feel the need to exclude. also I don't think elitism has ever been viewed in a positive light by anyone, but those who are of the elite and their friends.

you imply they have more intelligence or skill. I've run with "elites", that isn't the case. Most just have more time and a steady group to accumulate better gear, but they don't play their jobs any better than about half the server. Like the WHM who ran in a pick-up delve with us yesterday without RR, he's considered elite, especially by himself. Didn't stop him needing me to raise him.

[Glamdring]

Whether in a game setting or in real life people tend to forget how things were when they were just getting started somewhere. They forget that there was a time when they were less than optimal and didn't know everything. That annoying, ignorant rookie used to be you and someone wasted their valuable time on you or you wouldn't have got to where you are today. The fact that you're unwilling to pay that forward says more about you than it does the undergeared and unprepared newbie.

yep, friend of mine came back after 5 years, 2 weeks ago, he was reading all the advice about how to level to end-game. Jumped into Aby to speed level and got CLOBBERRED, repeatedly. Seems no one warned him what a deathtrap the place was before you have atma and gear and abyssites, and he didn't hit me up to PL him until 2 days later when he remembered my character name. I got him to 99 and into sparks gear so now he's catching up nicely, but if he hadn't found me-well no one else was offering much help.

[Zarchery]

So when people complain that none of the big mean elitists will help them, do they believe they're the first person to ask? I can only redo the same content over and over to help some new person so many times before I get tired of it.

[Afania]

My description of elitism was in reference to a players attitude toward others they feel are inferior to them for what ever reasons. Discrimination is a possible result of elitism.

But to touch on some of your later postings: picking and choosing who you play with is one thing. If you want to create a group that consists only of players who play jobs you find acceptable that is entirely your right. But unfortunately this kind of elitism rarely stays so focused, and it becomes commonplace in how these players deal with others on a regular basis. Because I've had players come into groups that I created or a friend of mine created and then start mocking other players in the group and telling them their job sucks and they need to re-roll. And this is what I have a problem with.

So in other words: if players want to get together and create a samurai-only club then be my guest. But I think this kind of attitude needs to stay inside the club. When it permeates into the general public it becomes toxic. Because a lot of us do not share in these kind of opinions (and let's be clear, it is just an opinion) that only certain jobs, gear, play-styles etc. are acceptable and everyone else should be scorned or ostracized.

I agree that first and foremost we need to separate the difference between exclusive and disrespect, they are very different.

Since the performance in this game can be measured by number, it is also nothing wrong with thinking others are worse at their job....a SAM parsed 30% v.s another SAM parsed 15%, the one that can parse 30% is better, this is fact. There's nothing wrong with 30% SAM thinking himself plays better. It doesn't matter if 30% SAM plays better because of gear or knowledge, it is still a fact that he is better.

However, if the SAM used the language like "you suck", then that's disrespect. Playing better doesn't necessary result disrespect, personality issue does.

Also, elitism is only one reason that may cause disrespect, out of many. I can name at least 5 posts in this thread that's full of disrespect/discrimination..., most of them aren't because of elitism, except 1.

I think you guys are focusing on elitism as a source of disrespect/discrimination way too much. I've seen a lot of disrespect/discrimination on forum and in game(this thread has many), but less than half of them is elitism.

[Dale]

I agree that first and foremost we need to separate the difference between exclusive and disrespect, they are very different.

Since the performance in this game can be measured by number, it is also nothing wrong with thinking others are worse at their job....a SAM parsed 30% v.s another SAM parsed 15%, the one that can parse 30% is better, this is fact. There's nothing wrong with 30% SAM thinking himself plays better. It doesn't matter if 30% SAM plays better because of gear or knowledge, it is still a fact that he is better.

However, if the SAM used the language like "you suck", then that's disrespect. Playing better doesn't necessary result disrespect, personality issue does.

Also, elitism is only one reason that may cause disrespect, out of many. I can name at least 5 posts in this thread that's full of disrespect/discrimination..., most of them aren't because of elitism, except 1.

I think you guys are focusing on elitism as a source of disrespect/discrimination way too much. I've seen a lot of disrespect/discrimination on forum and in game(this thread has many), but less than half of them is elitism.

There is more to how you play your character than just how much you parse. That's a poor indicator of a player's over-all performance in my opinion. So that alone is not really what I would consider a justification for any player to think they are somehow better than another.

That being said, people are free to believe they are better players than others for what ever reasons they wish. I think we agree on the major point: and that is it's not a good reason to treat others disrespectfully.

I would disagree with you though about elitism not being a common source for disrespect in MMORPGs. In my experience, it's a real problem and a lot of the rude comments I see directed at other players is because of it. And often times it has very little or nothing to do with how the actual player even plays. It has more to do with the job or sub job the player is using or the gear he/she is wearing. Hell, much of the time I start seeing the insults fly before the fight even begins and the player hasn't even had a chance.

[Dale]

you imply they have more intelligence or skill. I've run with "elites", that isn't the case. Most just have more time and a steady group to accumulate better gear, but they don't play their jobs any better than about half the server. Like the WHM who ran in a pick-up delve with us yesterday without RR, he's considered elite, especially by himself. Didn't stop him needing me to raise him.

I would agree with you. Most of the time those who consider themselves the elite aren't very impressive. Like the occasional DD I run into who continuously brags to the group how awesome their dps is and how everyone else will suck by comparison. We enter the battlefield, said Samurai immediately begins to spam weapon skills - DOES ZOMG UBER LEET DPS MAN - bites off more then he can chew. Dies. We continue on without him and easily beat the battlefield while he spends the rest of the fight dead or in the corner weakened. I suppose he was really elite for the few seconds he was alive.

My idea of a truly skilled player is one who knows how to assess a situation and adapt to achieve victory. And I would take someone like that any day over a lot of these so-called elites who do nothing but brag all day and demean others yet can't function successfully except in the narrowest of circumstances. Which is probably why they end up being so picky about who they play with to begin with.

[Comeatmebro]

There is more to how you play your character than just how much you parse. That's a poor indicator of a player's over-all performance in my opinion. So that alone is not really what I would consider a justification for any player to think they are somehow better than another.
A parse isn't a sole indication of how useful someone is, correct. A DD parsing 18% may be more useful than a DD parsing 21% if they make smarter target selections, use support abilities, or are otherwise more alert and helpful. However, once that gap starts to widen, it's a pretty clear indicator of usefulness. If you have a situation where you'd choose a 700DPS dd over a 1000DPS dd, you're likely better off adding another support job anyway.


We enter the battlefield, said Samurai immediately begins to spam weapon skills - DOES ZOMG UBER LEET DPS MAN - bites off more then he can chew. Dies. We continue on without him and easily beat the battlefield while he spends the rest of the fight dead or in the corner weakened. I suppose he was really elite for the few seconds he was alive.

Samurai should be WSing as frequently as they can in any content worth bringing Samurai to. If your party chose to bring a SAM, they should have expected that person to have hate and acted accordingly. I realize this is a hypothetical, but even so I'd side with the samurai over anyone else.. it's not their fault the mages are incompetent, and there are very few events where any sort of hybrid or PDT is still needed if your mages are attentive. They were doing their job(as a damage dealer) by dealing damage, it's the support that didn't hold up their end.

[Lithera]

you imply they have more intelligence or skill. I've run with "elites", that isn't the case. Most just have more time and a steady group to accumulate better gear, but they don't play their jobs any better than about half the server. Like the WHM who ran in a pick-up delve with us yesterday without RR, he's considered elite, especially by himself. Didn't stop him needing me to raise him.
I was mainly going by the definitions Camiie's had posted and in most of those definitions intelligence was listed in them. I think most here can agree that you can't fix stupid. Back in the day when dynamis LSes existed my group would have this Pld that would never get an xp buff. Sometimes they would be our only tank, his constant deleveling would make the group faceplam.

[Afania]

There is more to how you play your character than just how much you parse. That's a poor indicator of a player's over-all performance in my opinion. So that alone is not really what I would consider a justification for any player to think they are somehow better than another.


It depend on the job, if you're a support/hybrid DD like DNC, COR or BLU, maybe you can't completely rely on parse to decide who has better performance.

In the case of SAM however, at least 95% of performance are based on parse, 5% based on luck, such as QA proc/got hit with amnesia/charm and so on.



I would disagree with you though about elitism not being a common source for disrespect in MMORPGs. In my experience, it's a real problem and a lot of the rude comments I see directed at other players is because of it. And often times it has very little or nothing to do with how the actual player even plays. It has more to do with the job or sub job the player is using or the gear he/she is wearing. Hell, much of the time I start seeing the insults fly before the fight even begins and the player hasn't even had a chance.


So, in this very thread, Spetreman, Camiie, Lithera, Zarchery and Comeatmebro all posted disrespect comment, besides Comeatmebro's comment, which ones are based on "elitism"?

Also, since the choice of subjob and gear choices are part of the gameplay, pointing out certain subjob choice is the same as gameplay. So it really makes no sense to say that "pointing out SJ and gear choices is irrelevant to the gameplay"

[Afania]

I would agree with you. Most of the time those who consider themselves the elite aren't very impressive. Like the occasional DD I run into who continuously brags to the group how awesome their dps is and how everyone else will suck by comparison. We enter the battlefield, said Samurai immediately begins to spam weapon skills - DOES ZOMG UBER LEET DPS MAN - bites off more then he can chew. Dies. We continue on without him and easily beat the battlefield while he spends the rest of the fight dead or in the corner weakened. I suppose he was really elite for the few seconds he was alive.

My idea of a truly skilled player is one who knows how to assess a situation and adapt to achieve victory. And I would take someone like that any day over a lot of these so-called elites who do nothing but brag all day and demean others yet can't function successfully except in the narrowest of circumstances. Which is probably why they end up being so picky about who they play with to begin with.

Based on your previous comment, I think you misunderstood the concept of "good performance".

Unless you're a support/DD hybrid, your job is to do dmg. Thus it's logical to use parse as an indication to tell who is better. There aren't much else a SAM would need to do in an event.

Know when to turtle when not to turtle is part of gameplay, but ultimately, the point of putting up PDT- set is to do more dmg.

If a SAM died because he doesn't use PDT- set when necessary, and he doesn't turn back when spikes up, so he ended up parse low, then he's bad. Because a dead DD does no dmg.

If a SAM over-turtled when his mages are competent, PDT- set up full time and such, and ended up parse low, then he's still bad.

A "good" DD knows when to turtle so he wouldn't die, when not to turtle so he wouldn't waste dmg potential. The parse is the result of his decision making, and decision making determines whether a DD is good or bad.

Thus, it's only logical to tell who is better DD by parse result, because the parse itself included the decision making process.

If there's only 1%~3% difference between each DD, then luck can be the difference, so it's not that of a big deal.

If there's anything higher than 5%, and it happens every parse after 20 events, then it's easy to determine who's a better DD.....a DD that deals more dmg is better DD, whether you accomplish more dmg dealt by turtle more, or turtle less, decision making doesn't matter, only result does.

[Dale]

A parse isn't a sole indication of how useful someone is, correct. A DD parsing 18% may be more useful than a DD parsing 21% if they make smarter target selections, use support abilities, or are otherwise more alert and helpful. However, once that gap starts to widen, it's a pretty clear indicator of usefulness. If you have a situation where you'd choose a 700DPS dd over a 1000DPS dd, you're likely better off adding another support job anyway.

Samurai should be WSing as frequently as they can in any content worth bringing Samurai to. If your party chose to bring a SAM, they should have expected that person to have hate and acted accordingly. I realize this is a hypothetical, but even so I'd side with the samurai over anyone else.. it's not their fault the mages are incompetent, and there are very few events where any sort of hybrid or PDT is still needed if your mages are attentive. They were doing their job(as a damage dealer) by dealing damage, it's the support that didn't hold up their end.

Yes I know how you feel. It's everyone else's fault. Everyone else is incompetent except the LEET DD who doesn't know how to hold back or take any kind of precautions or responsibility for his own survival because he wants to parse as high as possible and use those numers to measure his epeen. That's the typical attitude, and why even hearing this word parse on FFXI makes me sick to my stomach.

But in the end, it's the elite that's on the ground dead blaming everyone else for his own mistakes while we finish up the battlefield with no problem. So you can blame who ever you wish in this example I gave, but I think the end result speaks for itself.

Also, that wasn't a hypothetical.

[Dale]

It depend on the job, if you're a support/hybrid DD like DNC, COR or BLU, maybe you can't completely rely on parse to decide who has better performance.

In the case of SAM however, at least 95% of performance are based on parse, 5% based on luck, such as QA proc/got hit with amnesia/charm and so on.


So, in this very thread, Spetreman, Camiie, Lithera, Zarchery and Comeatmebro all posted disrespect comment, besides Comeatmebro's comment, which ones are based on "elitism"?

Also, since the choice of subjob and gear choices are part of the gameplay, pointing out certain subjob choice is the same as gameplay. So it really makes no sense to say that "pointing out SJ and gear choices is irrelevant to the gameplay"


Parsing isn't a good indicator period in my opinion. Doesn't matter what job it is.

And I'm not really talking about this thread when I accuse elitism of being to blame for much of the rudeness I encounter. I'm talking about in-game. So take my comments in that context. And just for the record I felt you were unjustly attack earlier because I haven't seen you make any personal attacks toward anyone in this thread. So I agree with you there has been disrespectful comments made in this thread that were not based on elitism. So maybe hearing me say this helps.

As far as your sub job comments, I never said pointing out sub jobs is irrelevant to gameplay. So what really doesn't make sense is putting something I never said in quotes and then telling me I made no sense because I said something I never did.:confused:

What I did say is often times people make rude and disrespectful comments toward others based off what job or sub job they are using. And that is an example of elitism, someone thinking they decide what is the best job or sub job and anyone else who disagrees with them sucks and is fair game to be mocked for it. But I never said sub jobs were irrelevant to gameplay.

[Dale]

Based on your previous comment, I think you misunderstood the concept of "good performance".

Unless you're a support/DD hybrid, your job is to do dmg. Thus it's logical to use parse as an indication to tell who is better. There aren't much else a SAM would need to do in an event.

Know when to turtle when not to turtle is part of gameplay, but ultimately, the point of putting up PDT- set is to do more dmg.

If a SAM died because he doesn't use PDT- set when necessary, and he doesn't turn back when spikes up, so he ended up parse low, then he's bad. Because a dead DD does no dmg.

If a SAM over-turtled when his mages are competent, PDT- set up full time and such, and ended up parse low, then he's still bad.

A "good" DD knows when to turtle so he wouldn't die, when not to turtle so he wouldn't waste dmg potential. The parse is the result of his decision making, and decision making determines whether a DD is good or bad.

Thus, it's only logical to tell who is better DD by parse result, because the parse itself included the decision making process.

If there's only 1%~3% difference between each DD, then luck can be the difference, so it's not that of a big deal.

If there's anything higher than 5%, and it happens every parse after 20 events, then it's easy to determine who's a better DD.....a DD that deals more dmg is better DD, whether you accomplish more dmg dealt by turtle more, or turtle less, decision making doesn't matter, only result does.

I got no real problem with anything you said here. You make a bigger deal out of 5% more damage than I would. But at least you recognize there are times when a DD should make arrangements to assist in their own survival.

We will just have to agree to disagree about the importance of parsing.

[mattkoko]

What I did say is often times people make rude and disrespectful comments toward others based off what job or sub job they are using. And that is an example of elitism, someone thinking they decide what is the best job or sub job and anyone else who disagrees with them sucks and is fair game to be mocked for it. But I never said sub jobs were irrelevant to gameplay.

Making rude and disrespectful comments toward someone is not an example being elite (elitism). Making rude and disrespectful comments toward someone is an example of being rude and disrespectful (or in common slang, being an asshole). You can be an elitist and be an asshole at the same time. But they are not the same thing. I believe someone already defined Elitism earlier in this thread so I will refrain from defining it again. It is possible to be Elite and be respectful or helpful to someone or a group. Using your example of said players saying someone sucks or mocking them for their gear and subjob, you do not need to be elite or even think you are elite to do this. This person is an asshole. Whether this person is Elite or not is a different story.

[Afania]

I got no real problem with anything you said here. You make a bigger deal out of 5% more damage than I would. But at least you recognize there are times when a DD should make arrangements to assist in their own survival.

We will just have to agree to disagree about the importance of parsing.

You can disagree then. I tend to view how things work by numbers, if I can't measure things in number I translate them into numbers. IMO it's a more efficient way to manage team and performance.

I won't go emo say "you suck!" if I see someone being 5% behind, but if one person is always 5% behind after 20 parses, then there must be a reason......either the other guy is the main assist or something wrong with how they gear. I'll just keep in mind that one player is 5% behind another.

[Afania]

Parsing isn't a good indicator period in my opinion. Doesn't matter what job it is.

And I'm not really talking about this thread when I accuse elitism of being to blame for much of the rudeness I encounter. I'm talking about in-game. So take my comments in that context. And just for the record I felt you were unjustly attack earlier because I haven't seen you make any personal attacks toward anyone in this thread. So I agree with you there has been disrespectful comments made in this thread that were not based on elitism. So maybe hearing me say this helps.

As far as your sub job comments, I never said pointing out sub jobs is irrelevant to gameplay. So what really doesn't make sense is putting something I never said in quotes and then telling me I made no sense because I said something I never did.:confused:

What I did say is often times people make rude and disrespectful comments toward others based off what job or sub job they are using. And that is an example of elitism, someone thinking they decide what is the best job or sub job and anyone else who disagrees with them sucks and is fair game to be mocked for it. But I never said sub jobs were irrelevant to gameplay.

We must have very different gameplay experience then, cuz I rarely see disrespectful comment in game.....if someone is unhappy with other's SJ choice, they tend to say in /l, but not right in their face.

Also ppl tend to make comment about SJ mainly because certain jobs has no real reason to use certain SJ. If I see a MNK/DNC or SAM/DNC in endgame, I'd be confused as well. If that person can come up with a good reason to /DNC on DD jobs, sure. But most of the time they can't.

[Dale]

Making rude and disrespectful comments toward someone is not an example being elite (elitism). Making rude and disrespectful comments toward someone is an example of being rude and disrespectful (or in common slang, being an asshole). You can be an elitist and be an asshole at the same time. But they are not the same thing. I believe someone already defined Elitism earlier in this thread so I will refrain from defining it again. It is possible to be Elite and be respectful or helpful to someone or a group. Using your example of said players saying someone sucks or mocking them for their gear and subjob, you do not need to be elite or even think you are elite to do this. This person is an asshole. Whether this person is Elite or not is a different story.

Elitism is the attitude or behavior of someone who thinks they are better than you. That's is basically what it is.

So if someone comes up to me and starts mocking my job because they believe their job is superior then that's an example of elitism.

[Dale]

We must have very different gameplay experience then, cuz I rarely see disrespectful comment in game.....if someone is unhappy with other's SJ choice, they tend to say in /l, but not right in their face.

Also ppl tend to make comment about SJ mainly because certain jobs has no real reason to use certain SJ. If I see a MNK/DNC or SAM/DNC in endgame, I'd be confused as well. If that person can come up with a good reason to /DNC on DD jobs, sure. But most of the time they can't.

It's safe to say we've had different experiences on this game then. Because I have seen a lot of players be rude to others.

[Afania]

Elitism is the attitude or behavior of someone who thinks they are better than you. That's is basically what it is.

So if someone comes up to me and starts mocking my job because they believe their job is superior then that's an example of elitism.

If you play jobs like DRK or WAR, then another SAM mocking DRK and WAR being inferior DD, then his comment isn't directed toward you. It's direct toward the job itself, you're taking this too personal.

That's not elitism, that's stating fact. Most of the DD job dmg dealing potential are decided by math, and certain jobs are mathematically weaker unless it has better gears/skill than others.

[Afania]

It's safe to say we've had different experiences on this game then. Because I have seen a lot of players be rude to others.


How about this, I've seen a lot of players being rude to others, but only 10%~20% of them are due to elitism.

Secretly complaining in /l doesn't count, since it's not really disrespectful if they don't say it in /p chat.

[Dale]

If you play jobs like DRK or WAR, then another SAM mocking DRK and WAR being inferior DD, then his comment isn't directed toward you. It's direct toward the job itself, you're taking this too personal.

That's not elitism, that's stating fact. Most of the DD job dmg dealing potential are decided by math, and certain jobs are mathematically weaker unless it has better gears/skill than others.

Rather that person thinks it's a fact or not doesn't really matter. Because I imagine most elitist do fancy the belief in their own superiority as a fact.

If someone thinks they are better than others for what ever reason: their job, how much money they have or damage they can do and as a result treat others with disdain based on this notion, then it's elitism. In other words: if someone goes around acting like they are better than others they have an elitist personality. But rather it's because they think they have a better job, more money, smarter or better looking lol it doesn't really matter. It's still an example of elitism.

Also: there is a huge difference in saying you think a Samurai can do more damage than a Dark Knight then going up to another player who is a Dark Knight and saying you suck and need to re-roll because Samurais are better than you.

[Afania]

Rather that person thinks it's a fact or not doesn't really matter. Because I imagine most elitist do fancy the belief in their own superiority as a fact.

If someone thinks they are better than others for what ever reason: their job, how much money they have or damage they can do and as a result treat others with disdain based on this notion, then it's elitism. In other words: if someone goes around acting like they are better than others they have an elitist personality. But rather it's because they think they have a better job, more money, smarter or better looking lol it doesn't really matter. It's still an example of elitism.

Also: there is a huge difference in saying you think a Samurai can do more damage than a Dark Knight then going up to another player who is a Dark Knight and saying you suck and need to re-roll because Samurais are better than you.

I think you're taking this too seriously - -.

I play BLU, everytime when I do delve on BLU my LSmate said something like..."Afania go lv SAM!" "Afania go lv WHM!" "lolBLU!" "You will never outparse my SAM!"I never feel disrespected when they said that, I know for fact that those comments weren't personal. I usually just replied with "BUT I WANNA BLLUUUUUUU!"

I also think that acting with disrespect and feeling superior are 2 different things. "My WHM is better than yours" may be based on the fact that my WHM has better gears and make less mistakes in event, with less death record. This does not has equal meaning as "I, Afania, is a superior individual than Dale/Jeremi"

Ppl tend to take things personal, even though most of the time it isn't their intention.

[Dale]

I think you're taking this too seriously - -.

I play BLU, everytime when I do delve on BLU my LSmate said something like..."Afania go lv SAM!" "Afania go lv WHM!" "lolBLU!" "You will never outparse my SAM!"I never feel disrespected when they said that, I know for fact that those comments weren't personal. I usually just replied with "BUT I WANNA BLLUUUUUUU!"

I also think that acting with disrespect and feeling superior are 2 different things. "My WHM is better than yours" may be based on the fact that my WHM has better gears and make less mistakes in event, with less death record. This does not has equal meaning as "I, Afania, is a superior individual than Dale/Jeremi"

Ppl tend to take things personal, even though most of the time it isn't their intention.

The comments I'm referring to though aren't just friendly jests like the ones you describe. They are very rude comments thrown at other players to demean and shame them. So we are talking about two very different things here.

[mattkoko]

Elitism is the attitude or behavior of someone who thinks they are better than you. That's is basically what it is.

So if someone comes up to me and starts mocking my job because they believe their job is superior then that's an example of elitism.

How about this, I will break down your example more. Because you seem to know what Elitism is to some degree, but there is more to it then just thinking you are better then someone.

Your first example was making rude or disrespectful comments toward someone based off what subjob they are using. This is not Elitism. You do not have to think you are superior to make rude and disrespectful comments toward a someone using a certain subjob. However, this could have been handled in a different way. In the rude sense, this person could be saying, "why would you use a shitty sub like, rdm when you are a drk. Are you a dumbass or something?" Instead this person could have said, "you know, /rdm does not really benefit drk. I suggest you use a sub like war or sam for drk." Or, "Is there a reason why you are using rdm as a sub?" So your example is more about being an asshole then being superior.

Now, trying to decide for someone what job is the best job or subjob and anyone who doesn't agree sucks and proceeds with mocking them is not Elitism either. Someone thinking their opinion is superior is not Elitism. It is their reasoning behind the opinion. Now if this person thinks their opinion is more superior because this person is a part of a more experiences ls and has been playing for 10 years as oppose to the person he/she is mocking who has only played for 5 years and was only ever in casual and social linkshells, then said person can be accused of elitism. Elitism is thinking you are superior because you are apart of a widely known and established endgame ls or simply just because you have been playing the game 5 years longer (I am sure there are more and better examples but trying to keep this short). The person you are describing in your example is guilty of being Arrogant. Not Elitism

[Dale]

How about this, I will break down your example more. Because you seem to know what Elitism is to some degree, but there is more to it then just thinking you are better then someone.

Your first example was making rude or disrespectful comments toward someone based off what subjob they are using. This is not Elitism. You do not have to think you are superior to make rude and disrespectful comments toward a someone using a certain subjob. However, this could have been handled in a different way. In the rude sense, this person could be saying, "why would you use a shitty sub like, rdm when you are a drk. Are you a dumbass or something?" Instead this person could have said, "you know, /rdm does not really benefit drk. I suggest you use a sub like war or sam for drk." Or, "Is there a reason why you are using rdm as a sub?" So your example is more about being an asshole then being superior.

Now, trying to decide for someone what job is the best job or subjob and anyone who doesn't agree sucks and proceeds with mocking them is not Elitism either. Someone thinking their opinion is superior is not Elitism. It is their reasoning behind the opinion. Now if this person thinks their opinion is more superior because this person is a part of a more experiences ls and has been playing for 10 years as oppose to the person he/she is mocking who has only played for 5 years and was only ever in casual and social linkshells, then said person can be accused of elitism. Elitism is thinking you are superior because you are apart of a widely known and established endgame ls or simply just because you have been playing the game 5 years longer (I am sure there are more and better examples but trying to keep this short). The person you are describing in your example is guilty of being Arrogant. Not Elitism

As I said, I believe you're definition of elitism is too limited and has much broader connotations than just belonging to an established endgame linkshell or having played the game for 5 years. It's just a word used to describe the attitude of people who feel they are superior to others for what ever reasons and how they treat others as less than their equal because of it. It can take place on a video game or outside of it.

But in the end this is just semantics. So it's probably best we just agree to disagree at this point. I don't really see either of us changing each other's mind at this point. So if you want to sum it up as just being arrogant I really don't have a problem with that. As long as we both recognize it's wrong and players shouldn't do it that's the important part. I don't really care what we call it.

[mattkoko]

As I said, I believe you're definition of elitism is far too limited and has much broader connotations than just belonging to an established endgame linkshell or having played the game for 5 years. It's just a word used to describe the attitude of people who feel they are superior to others for what ever reasons and how they treat others as less than their equal. It can take place on a video game or outside of it.

But in the end this is just semantics. So it's probably best we just agree to disagree at this point. I don't really see either of us changing each other's mind at this point. So if you want to sum it up as just being arrogant I really don't have a problem with that. As long as we both recognize it's wrong and players shouldn't do it.

Actually, I agree with your last post. Saying someone sucks because they are a part of a certain social group, has more money, etc is Elitism.

However, if I tell you right now I don't agree with you and just say you suck right now, it could be just because I don't like to be wrong. In this case, this is not elitism. I am just being too arrogant to admit I am wrong. It's just your original examples that I did not agree with. Some people think they are superior just because. some people don't have a reason and just don't like to admit their wrong. Some people are so used to a certain way of getting things done and will say someone else sucks depending on what job or subjob they bring. This person just may not know enough or have bad understanding of mechanics. It does not add up to elitism necessarily. This is not to say this person is right by any means though.

We can agree to disagree though. Either way, I am right because I am Elvaan and most likely taller which makes me better looking. Probably also means I have a bigger... Never mind. Okay that was somewhat of a joke, however, saying I was right because I am an elvaan and better looking is classic elitism lol.

I do agree whether it be arrogance or elitism, it is wrong. And I am also wrong in assuming you were talking about elites in general. Because I do know a bunch of players that could be considered elite, but are extremely helpful and respectful. They like getting things done efficiently and will give advice on certain jobs and subjobs with out being rude. I go back to what someone else said in this thread that a lot of people in here and in game who put being elite in a negative light. This is what I have a problem with.

[Comeatmebro]

Yes I know how you feel. It's everyone else's fault. Everyone else is incompetent except the LEET DD who doesn't know how to hold back or take any kind of precautions or responsibility for his own survival because he wants to parse as high as possible and use those numers to measure his epeen. That's the typical attitude, and why even hearing this word parse on FFXI makes me sick to my stomach.

But in the end, it's the elite that's on the ground dead blaming everyone else for his own mistakes while we finish up the battlefield with no problem. So you can blame who ever you wish in this example I gave, but I think the end result speaks for itself.

Also, that wasn't a hypothetical.

If I go SAM with my mules, I don't need to hold back. I won't die. Spamming WS will clear the event fastest, resulting in the most loot.

If I go SAM with my linkshell members, I don't need to hold back. I won't die. Spamming WS will clear the event fastest, resulting in the most loot.

I only do pickups if I'm extremely bored and I see a group's been shouting a while, I'm not the guy going around ruining groups. If I can't get a group of people I know for something, I'd rather use my mules and not have to deal with the unpredictability of shout groups. That said, if a pickup of the same setup can't keep me alive to the same caliber a good group could, then the only mistake I'd have made would be putting faith in a group that didn't deserve it. Perhaps hybrid gear would've been more beneficial in that state, but it's not me that's lagging behind. The so-called elites you're ready to bash may not be playing 'irresponsibly', they may be treating you the same as their 'elite' groups. You let them down as much as they let you down.

Whatever BC you 5manned once is just a single scenario, a single person, and a single setup. I've done every event in the game successfully, and I've never had a need to hold back on a DD. I rarely use DT gear. I think it's safe to say that you're blaming that person BECAUSE you view them as an elite. What else is a SAM supposed to do? If it's not a theoretical, what event was this where your SAM just plain dropped before anything could be done due to dpsing too hard?

[Glamdring]

I was mainly going by the definitions Camiie's had posted and in most of those definitions intelligence was listed in them. I think most here can agree that you can't fix stupid. Back in the day when dynamis LSes existed my group would have this Pld that would never get an xp buff. Sometimes they would be our only tank, his constant deleveling would make the group faceplam.

oh god do I understand that. I always ran Dynamis bard in the old days, my facepalm was always the same. I'm screaming for target control, some guy decides to show how awesome he is, attacks something and immediately dies and starts whining how the rest of us suck for not keeping him alive. meanwhile I and the leader simultaneously /tell eachother "i JUST slept that thing..." seriously, how "elite" can you be when you don't even know how to use an /assist macro after 6 freaking years of play?

[Glamdring]

matt, dale, let me make it easy for you, some elites use the term to talk about their play, those would be the one's praising. the one's complaining however are using the "elite" definition of "adj. an arrogant prick who believes they have an authority based on excellence that they have not in fact earned". both are equally valid definitions (look at the traditional roles of "nobility" to see it in a historical perspective). you need to agree on what definition you are using before you are on the same page.

[Dale]

If I go SAM with my mules, I don't need to hold back. I won't die. Spamming WS will clear the event fastest, resulting in the most loot.

If I go SAM with my linkshell members, I don't need to hold back. I won't die. Spamming WS will clear the event fastest, resulting in the most loot.

I only do pickups if I'm extremely bored and I see a group's been shouting a while, I'm not the guy going around ruining groups. If I can't get a group of people I know for something, I'd rather use my mules and not have to deal with the unpredictability of shout groups. That said, if a pickup of the same setup can't keep me alive to the same caliber a good group could, then the only mistake I'd have made would be putting faith in a group that didn't deserve it. Perhaps hybrid gear would've been more beneficial in that state, but it's not me that's lagging behind. The so-called elites you're ready to bash may not be playing 'irresponsibly', they may be treating you the same as their 'elite' groups. You let them down as much as they let you down.

Whatever BC you 5manned once is just a single scenario, a single person, and a single setup. I've done every event in the game successfully, and I've never had a need to hold back on a DD. I rarely use DT gear. I think it's safe to say that you're blaming that person BECAUSE you view them as an elite. What else is a SAM supposed to do? If it's not a theoretical, what event was this where your SAM just plain dropped before anything could be done due to dpsing too hard?

A lot of misinformation here so I'll try to clear some of it up.

I didn't view the samurai in question as an elite. I wasn't impressed with either his play-style or attitude. It was him that viewed himself as an elite and sought to insult and mock everyone else in the group simply because they were not what he would consider an acceptable job. And this happened before the battleground even started. So that is why I am bashing him. Because he chose to bash others. If he had simply played bad I would not be bashing him. If he had simply thought he was an elite I would not be bashing him. So you are mischaracterizing me.

The fact he was horrible and died in the first few seconds of the fight just proved to everyone there - except to him of course - that his inflated ego wasn't back up by inflated skill.

As to your other points: I believe a truly skilled player is one who knows how to adapt to different group situations to achieve victory. If someone always plays the same exact way all the time just because they think it's the elite way to play - even if it gets them killed - then that is just dumb. At least in my opinion.

And to answer your last question: I forget exactly which but it was one of the battlefields for Rem Chapters. Maybe the one with ants... not sure. He just charged in and proceeded to chain weapon skills on them and as a result died. And died quickly.

He got impatient because someone was buffing or something as I recall. Apparently he was just too awesome for us to make him wait a few seconds because us puny beings wanted buffs for such an easy fight. An easy fight that kicked his you know what :)

[Dale]

matt, dale, let me make it easy for you, some elites use the term to talk about their play, those would be the one's praising. the one's complaining however are using the "elite" definition of "adj. an arrogant prick who believes they have an authority based on excellence that they have not in fact earned". both are equally valid definitions (look at the traditional roles of "nobility" to see it in a historical perspective). you need to agree on what definition you are using before you are on the same page.

I think where we got side-tracked is there is a difference in being elite and then elitism.

If you are truly a skilled player and believe yourself to be an elite then I got no real issues with that. But if you practice elitism as a result of that belief, and treat others as inferior creatures not worthy of your respect then I do have an issue with it.

So as long as someone doesn't let their own self-feeling of superiority affect negatively their attitude or behavior toward others I got no real problems with people who see themselves as elites.

[Dale]

Actually, I agree with your last post. Saying someone sucks because they are a part of a certain social group, has more money, etc is Elitism.

However, if I tell you right now I don't agree with you and just say you suck right now, it could be just because I don't like to be wrong. In this case, this is not elitism. I am just being too arrogant to admit I am wrong. It's just your original examples that I did not agree with. Some people think they are superior just because. some people don't have a reason and just don't like to admit their wrong. Some people are so used to a certain way of getting things done and will say someone else sucks depending on what job or subjob they bring. This person just may not know enough or have bad understanding of mechanics. It does not add up to elitism necessarily. This is not to say this person is right by any means though.

We can agree to disagree though. Either way, I am right because I am Elvaan and most likely taller which makes me better looking. Probably also means I have a bigger... Never mind. Okay that was somewhat of a joke, however, saying I was right because I am an elvaan and better looking is classic elitism lol.

I do agree whether it be arrogance or elitism, it is wrong. And I am also wrong in assuming you were talking about elites in general. Because I do know a bunch of players that could be considered elite, but are extremely helpful and respectful. They like getting things done efficiently and will give advice on certain jobs and subjobs with out being rude. I go back to what someone else said in this thread that a lot of people in here and in game who put being elite in a negative light. This is what I have a problem with.

I believe there to be a a very thin line between elitism and arrogance - if indeed there is one there at all. So if you are more comfortable with me calling it arrogance I'll be more than happy to accommodate you.

[Afania]

So that is why I am bashing him. Because he chose to bash others.


Have you realized that you're doing the exact same thing as ppl you disapproved of?

[Dale]

Have you realized that you're doing the exact same thing as ppl you disapproved of?


I only bash those who bash others first. And feel wholly justified in doing so.

If you just sit back and allow players to treat others like crap without acting on their behalf then you may as well be complicit it in. I'm a firm believer in giving people what they dish out. Often times it's the only way they will learn.

Players who make fun of other players deserve to be made fun of themselves. They need to know how it feels.

[Afania]

I only bash those who bash others first. And feel wholly justified in doing so.

If you just sit back and allow players to treat others like crap without acting on their behalf then you may as well be complicit it in. I'm a firm believer in giving people what they dish out. Often times it's the only way they will learn.

Players who make fun of other players deserve to be made fun of themselves. They need to know how it feels.

I don't agree with you lol, or else I'd personal attack at least 5 person in this thread. If I bash others because I feel like I have right to, I'd just proved that I'm the same type of person....."feel wholly justified in doing so".

Those who feel "superior" and act with disrespect, they aren't going to change nor learn just because you bash them back. Since they bash others because they're superior, how are you going to make them feel bad unless you can prove that you're better than them? You can't. If you tell them "you suck cuz you die", they're only going to reply with "cuz your mage suck". Nothing will change.

I have some friends who are like that, often bash newer players, with 0 tolerance toward their mistakes. I didn't bash them, I just be friends with them by trying to play equally good and earned their trust. But if I get a chance I tell them "Stop being mean! They'll feel bad!". They won't change at first, but slowly they start to change.

After 5 years of playing FFXI, I've seen many ppl bash others for various reasons, I've never see anyone change for the better because someone else bash them back or make fun of them. I've only seen ppl change because their friends show them that they can be good and treat others with respect.

[Dale]

I don't agree with you lol, or else I'd personal attack at least 5 person in this thread. If I bash others because I feel like I have right to, I'd just proved that I'm the same type of person....."feel wholly justified in doing so".

Those who feel "superior" and act with disrespect, they aren't going to change nor learn just because you bash them back. Since they bash others because they're superior, how are you going to make them feel bad unless you can prove that you're better than them? You can't. If you tell them "you suck cuz you die", they're only going to reply with "cuz your mage suck". Nothing will change.

I have some friends who are like that, often bash newer players, with 0 tolerance toward their mistakes. I didn't bash them, I just be friends with them by trying to play equally good and earned their trust. But if I get a chance I tell them "Stop being mean! They'll feel bad!". They won't change at first, but slowly they start to change.

After 5 years of playing FFXI, I've seen many ppl bash others for various reasons, I've never see anyone change for the better because someone else bash them back or make fun of them. I've only seen ppl change because their friends show them that they can be good and treat others with respect.

We just fundamentally disagree that bullying the bully makes you a bully. But we all have our own sense of individual morality, so I can respect that's the way you feel. But when I make fun of someone because they are making fun of someone else - to me that is righteous and giving that person what they deserve. So I don't see it as me becoming the same type of person. I just see it as dishing out some justice.

Now you may be right when you say it won't change that person. Many people will never change no matter what. So I'll concede that part of your argument. And perhaps your softer more gradual approach would be more effective in some cases. But I still maintain that the offending person needs to be on the receiving end of what he or she is giving to others. That's just how I am made. And I would feel guilty inside if I behaved any differently.

[mattkoko]

I believe there to be a a very thin line between elitism and arrogance - if indeed there is one there at all. So if you are more comfortable with me calling it arrogance I'll be more than happy to accommodate you.

Aww well that is sweet of you (being a smart ass here). You do not need to accommodate me. I am not a child.

[mattkoko]

We just fundamentally disagree that bullying the bully makes you a bully. But we all have our own sense of individual morality, so I can respect that's the way you feel. But when I make fun of someone because they are making fun of someone else - to me that is righteous and giving that person what they deserve. So I don't see it as me becoming the same type of person. I just see it as dishing out some justice.

Now you may be right when you say it won't change that person. Many people will never change no matter what. So I'll concede that part of your argument. And perhaps your softer more gradual approach would be more effective in some cases. But I still maintain that the offending person needs to be on the receiving end of what he or she is giving to others. That's just how I am made. And I would feel guilty inside if I behaved any differently.

I am not going to go as far as saying that bullying the bully makes you a bully. Though I understand it feels good to get back at someone, when I see someone get picked on in party or ls, I personally focus on the person that is on the receiving end by either encouraging or comforting them. I agree with Afania that fighting back with someone just turns into a bickering match. 9/10 these people do not change if you just dish it back to them. I have found 2 different approaches much more helpful and they work much more often in my experience.

First approach, try to calm the situation down. Now I know every situation is different so this may not always work obviously. But making the person saying hurtful things realize what he/she is doing and saying, may help them come to an understanding and you could even get an apology out in the end. Maybe this person just had a bad day and lashed out. You never know. Like I said though, every situation is different. You may think, "jeez what are the chances of that happening," but there is a much better chance of that happening then insulting the bully into submission. No one listens to each other in a shouting match.

The second approach (could also be combined with the first approach and in my opinion is recommended either way) is to have a talk with the person(s) that is the victim. Make sure the victim is alright, comfort them, say don't listen to him/her he/she is just an ass, etc. Not everyone can handle insults. Especially if this person is suffering from depression or has low self-confidence. If you start exchanging insults with the person that is being a bully, you could actually make it worse for the victim (especially if you fight in party or ls chat). They may think, "great now there is a fight because I couldn't do my job right and I suck." Results could be quitting their job they attempted to come as, quitting the ls, quitting the game or even more extreme measures. As I mentioned a few posts back. Everyone has their story. Yeah this bully could have made the victim feel horrible. But if you encourage the victim and take their side and give them tips, you could give them confidence and help improve their skills with said job. Plus, you will also prove to be the more mature person and others may actually look up to you.

Now, if someone feels the need to insult me for whatever reason, I admit, I used to dish it back (in /tells) however, I am at the point in my life where I really don't give a crap of what people think of me. My position is, they don't know me so all it is, is talking out of their ass with empty insults. Although I don't agree with your way of handling it, if they are insulting you, handle it however you want. If insulting them back makes you feel better and like a bigger person, be my guest. Insult until your heart's content (as long as it is in /tells). However, if they insult someone else, think before you choose what course of action to take. Firing back could make matters worse for everyone (especially the victim). If you show your support and encouragement to the victim and make them feel better, there is nothing to feel guilty about.

[Dale]

Aww well that is sweet of you (being a smart ass here). You do not need to accommodate me. I am not a child.

You took that in the wrong way. I accommodate people all the time and it doesn't mean I am treating them like a child. I was just trying to be agreeable and compromised to use a word to describe my feelings that you thought was more accurate and I was ok with using.

I would try and be less defensive.

[Dale]

Now, if someone feels the need to insult me for whatever reason, I admit, I used to dish it back (in /tells) however, I am at the point in my life where I really don't give a crap of what people think of me. My position is, they don't know me so all it is, is talking out of their ass with empty insults. Although I don't agree with your way of handling it, if they are insulting you, handle it however you want. If insulting them back makes you feel better and like a bigger person, be my guest. Insult until your heart's content (as long as it is in /tells). However, if they insult someone else, think before you choose what course of action to take. Firing back could make matters worse for everyone (especially the victim). If you show your support and encouragement to the victim and make them feel better, there is nothing to feel guilty about.

It's usually when I see someone insulting someone else that I get involved. I don't really care what some arrogant stranger on the internet thinks of me. But I'm not just going to sit idly by and say nothing when I see some arrogant player trashing another player just because of the job they chose.

And unless I fire back I'm not exactly sure how I am suppose to show support and encouragement to the victim. Because sending them a private tell saying it'll be ok and not to feel bad isn't going to cut it and would feel cowardly to me.