General complaint thread

[Zekander]

Since my other thread got derailed into essentially this, feel free to post any grievances you may have about Red Mage here.

Personally I would like to see RDM get an A- sword skill if for no other reason then for the style of the job. RDM is supposed to be a mage that wields a sword, but this is rarely the case. With only a B rank in sword there is no way to argue its use for anything other then soloing and even then nuking is often more effective.

SE please do not leave us out of the skill updates, this change would in no way make the job more powerful, simply more versatile.

[Draylo]

sry that would make them too overpowered

[Protey]

Blu is a hybrid with a focus on DPS, Rdm is a hybrid with a focus on support, you actually see shouts for Rdms, not Blus. Blu is not OP.

That said, I have 0 qualms about increasing Rdms melee ability I absolutely think every job should have an A+ in it's core skills, and Sword is definitely one for Rdm. And I wish they'd buff Enspell II's, as well, they're rather silly as they are.

I just took objection to calling Blu OP, though we've admittedly gotten a lot of Dev love lately (which I am very grateful for), we're still behind the leading jobs that share our role in a party, though we are admittedly now above the average, and many jobs could use more buffs than we could now, but we're still no Sam or Mnk or Rng, or even really Thf (though obviously not for DD reasons) in the "DD role" in terms of desirability, but we're now ahead or tied with most of the remaining DDs.

The only reason Rdms are shouted for more than Blus, honestly, is because the support role in general is rarer than DD, they're still behind Brd and Whm, in terms of support desirability.

so how is BLU overpowered? let's take a look:

winds of promyvion (erasega) - other jobs have to either use stratagems or be a mythic whm
barrier tusk - allows them to go 15% past the PDT cap.... hmmm where have i heard that before, o PLD and RUN mythics
subduction - gives aoe potent gravity, recast of 5 seconds, and does quite a bit of damage... RDM gravity 2 is single target, recast of 75 seconds, and does no damage
occultation - gives shadows based on blu skill... up to what, 10 shadows? RDM - 2
cocoon - 50% defense boost. nearest anything comes to this is defender from WAR
also has among many other possibilities: stun with very low recast time, incredibly long lasting terror, aoe sleep, and can cast aoe haste2 type spell that lasts about 8? minutes once every 10 minutes

there is more to being OP than just raw damage. O, and don't even try and use the argument that they are limited to the spells they can set. With assimilation and blue magic point bonus from JPs they can set all of the OP spells they need and then some.

[mattkoko]

While is is true all of the spells you mentioned are great spells. and you say don't use set points as an excuse, but that is a big factor. You have to remember that every single job other then blu has native job traits. In order for blu to get job traits, they need a certain spell combination. Sometimes this means setting useless spells just to get a job trait.

Also, spells like winds of promy is a great spell, but we cannot select party members. The party needs to be with in the blu's vicinity. And the mp cost on winds of promy is a pretty decent amount (89mp) where sch and /sch can cast it for 18 mp or less with light arts and those jobs that have a native conserve mp trait (a trait where we need a special spell combination to even have access to and by spells we may not even have any use for other then that trait).

Occultation is a great spell but it costs a crap tone of mp (138mp to be exact). The only place this really got its chance to shine is in abyssea with a 10-15mp tic refresh.

Barrier tusk lasts 60 seconds. Although it is nice, and sounds great on paper, it is situational at best.

Cocoon is amazing. not going to sugar coat that at all.

Subduction is cheap to cast and it is a nice spell but it costs 6 set points. A lot of these so called overpowered spells are great spells. I'm not going to lie. But even with assimilation and additional set points through JP, you still need to make a lot of sacrifices in order to get the proper job traits for whatever event along with the spells you want.

Edit: I forgot to mention blu's version of stun. Although it is a great stun, it is not as reliable as the actual stun spell. The actual stun spell is a lot less likely to be resisted, unless that mob has a natural resistance to stun. In other words, if a party needs a reliable stunner, they most likely will not turn to blu.

Also, it is true that diffusion can let you cast AOE haste II. Can also cast AOE refresh. Duration of erratic flutter is 5 minutes however (just over 6 minutes if you fully merit diffusion). Not 8. Rdm can recast haste II on them self and other party members full time (assuming that rdm is reliable and reapplies). Main point is blu is not invited to parties because they can cast AoE haste II. If people want haste II, they will go to a job that can reapply it on other party members full time.

With this said, I am not saying blu is a bad job. I love blu and it is a lot of fun and it is a great job to play. But it is no where close to being overpowered as you say. I don't know what your gripe is with the job, but just you saying that set points is not a factor when it absolutely is, as well as saying that erratic flutter lasts for 8 minutes when it lasts for 5 minutes tells me how little you know about the job. So before you talk about how OP blu is, level it to 99. Because for every great thing blu can do, a lot of sacrifice has to be made to get the desired traits along with the dmg output. You mentioned a lot of great defensive spells, but blu does not get invited to events because they can get 10 blink shadows, 15% past PDT cap, and AOE haste II every 10 minutes. They get invited to parties for dmg output (and occasionally absolute terror. Hell before blu got their physical spells boosted, AT was one of the only reasons they were invited to some of the delves). Which means we have to sacrifice most, if not all of our defensive spells to keep up with the other DDs. And we still wont keep up with the likes of mnk and sam.

RDM on the other hand is asked to parties more for their support role. RDMs don't get parties because they deal awesome dmg with their almighty sword skills. And even at A+ sword skill, you still wont get parties for your almighty sword skills. You want to know why? Because, rdm is mainly looked toward for support. So lets say the rdm runs in to poke the mob with a sword. Not only is that rdm just feeding tp, but putting them self in danger to get killed. It's hard to give support to your party members if your dead.

So you can go ahead and compare rdm to blu all you want, but they are used in parties for entirely different reasons. If you want to compare rdm to other jobs as far as balance goes, Compare them to the likes of brd, cor, and geo, because that is the category they fall into. As I said in the other thread, I am not against rdm getting a boost in their enspells or even A+ sword skills. If it makes them happy, I am all for it. But it is quite obvious you don't know much about blu, and if you did play blu, you would not be saying it is OP.

[Malthar]

sry that would make them too overpowered

Yep, we would have nothing but 18 man red mage parties.

[Malthar]

You left out hardened shell; 100 percent defense boost.

[Zekander]

I never compared RDM to BLU, and I know full well that increasing our sword skill won't make any difference in getting parties, which is pretty much why I asked for it. The style of the Red Mage is a mage that wields a sword, this has always been the case. However, in FFXI, RDM sword use is continually being marginalized in all content, an increase in sword skill would show that at least SE is being faithful to the style of the job, rather then simply pretending it doesn't exist.

I don't want RDM to be an exceptional melee DD, what I want is to have meleeing be an acceptable option in some party based content. Things like it being acceptable for a RDM to melee down adds in delve/incursion/etc. Then when the party gets to a boss the RDM can fall back to the backlines and provide some assistance in a support role. A better sword skill would help to change player opinion about what is acceptable for a RDM to do.

[Draylo]

RDM can solo PW its too strong and needs nerfing I think ^^

[Zekander]

And it is exactly s*** like that which ensures we will never get anything we ask for. Completely disregarding the fact that RDM is not the only job capable of these feats, and ignoring the fact that very few people would even want to do so when it is much easier and faster just to get a couple of other people to help you, and the fact that PW is still level 75 content, as well as the fact that increasing RDMs sword skill would in no way influence it's ability to do these things.

[Demonjustin]

Dray is just trollin, that's all.

[Protey]

...as well as saying that erratic flutter lasts for 8 minutes when it lasts for 5 minutes tells me how little you know about the job...

First off, AoE erratic flutter can last a lot longer than 5 minutes. Probably because of that thing called merits.... but you wouldn't know about that Mr. IthinkIknoweverythingaboutBLUbutdon't.


So you can go ahead and compare rdm to blu all you want, but they are used in parties for entirely different reasons. If you want to compare rdm to other jobs as far as balance goes, Compare them to the likes of brd, cor, and geo, because that is the category they fall into. As I said in the other thread, I am not against rdm getting a boost in their enspells or even A+ sword skills. If it makes them happy, I am all for it. But it is quite obvious you don't know much about blu, and if you did play blu, you would not be saying it is OP

you are under the impression that this is all about being invited to parties.... it's not. Nowhere in my post did I mention invites to parties. Which was kind of obvious from the solo spells I mentioned. I can possibly see where you are confused as I did mention AoE haste2 as a possibility and I quoted Selindrile who mentioned RDMs shouted for more than BLUs, but that is a quote and not something I wrote.


RDM on the other hand is asked to parties more for their support role. RDMs don't get parties because they deal awesome dmg with their almighty sword skills. And even at A+ sword skill, you still wont get parties for your almighty sword skills. You want to know why? Because, rdm is mainly looked toward for support. So lets say the rdm runs in to poke the mob with a sword. Not only is that rdm just feeding tp, but putting them self in danger to get killed. It's hard to give support to your party members if your dead..

I'm going to throw your own words right back at you: go level RDM to 99 as it is quite obvious you don't know much about RDM. I have melee'd on RDM in delve. On Wopket I did 80% damage of the MNK.... I would hardly call that "just feeding TP". And as to your comment about a RDM putting themselves in danger and getting killed..... you do know that RDM is one of the most capable jobs at surviving? O wait, you don't, cuz you don't play RDM.

[Malthar]

RDM can solo PW its too strong and needs nerfing I think ^^

Ok Dray, that was kinda obvious trolling. lmao
Just because Protey can do it doesn't mean everyone can.

[Protey]

Dray is just trollin, that's all.

yea he is. i have troll'd him a bit about him going and soloing PW on BLU. This is him getting back at me.

[mattkoko]

First off, AoE erratic flutter can last a lot longer than 5 minutes. Probably because of that thing called merits.... but you wouldn't know about that Mr. IthinkIknoweverythingaboutBLUbutdon't.



you are under the impression that this is all about being invited to parties.... it's not. Nowhere in my post did I mention invites to parties. Which was kind of obvious from the solo spells I mentioned. I can possibly see where you are confused as I did mention AoE haste2 as a possibility and I quoted Selindrile who mentioned RDMs shouted for more than BLUs, but that is a quote and not something I wrote.



I'm going to throw your own words right back at you: go level RDM to 99 as it is quite obvious you don't know much about RDM. I have melee'd on RDM in delve. On Wopket I did 80% damage of the MNK.... I would hardly call that "just feeding TP". And as to your comment about a RDM putting themselves in danger and getting killed..... you do know that RDM is one of the most capable jobs at surviving? O wait, you don't, cuz you don't play RDM.

Actually, there is no way to make erratic flutter last 8 minutes. I do however admit I am wrong that it only lasts 5 minutes. I even changed it just for you. I forgot about the update where they now add 5% duration per merit which makes it last very slightly over 6 minutes (still no where near 8 minutes). So my bad, sorry. But since you used 8 minutes, lets say it did last 8 minutes just for the sake of argument. That is still 2 minutes of everyone going with out haste and to a pld in many of the big fights, haste full time or close to it is important. I never claimed I know it all. But, you basically put blu out there making it sound like the absolute best job in the game and glorified the hell out of it when most of your examples are very poor and not as great as they sound on paper. You say don't use the set points argument, however it is a very big factor. Like I said, blu is a great job. Not taking anything away from it in the slightest. But it is hardly as overpowered as you say. Which is my main point.

And here we go, now we are talking about survivability solo. As far as solo goes, I stand by that many of your examples are poor. Again, they sound good on paper. You just admitted straight up that rdm is very capable of surviving. They have immediate access to all spells. Blu does not. Although we have many defensive spells, they either cost a lot of mp, or they don't last long enough to be of any use. And please don't tell me I am confused this time and say you are not talking about survivability because all of your spell examples are survivability spells that you used for blu in your claim of how over powered we are. By the way, I was not confused at all before either. You used AoE as a part of your example, so I used it back. I call it as I see it. You also used winds of promy as an example in your list of "Overpowering spells." So you say this is not about parties, but some of your examples say otherwise. But since we are not talking about parties anymore, if your DD skills are boosted for solo, don't you think your DD skills will be boosted for parties as well. All of these job adjustments they have been doing have not been to increase the solo skills for said jobs.

As far as you doing 80% dmg of a mnk (Not going to say it didn't happen because I was not there. Though seeing your pattern of over exaggerating of pretty much everything in your previous post, I do question it), if this is in fact true, then you obviously don't need A+ sword skill and enhanced enspells since that would be overpowering.

I still stand by my point, which you failed to mention anything about in your previous post, that rdm is seen as a support job. So if you are looking for balance, you would still want to compare rdm to brd, cor, and geo. Leave blu out of it because DD wise, blu is far from OP. And survivability wise, I don't even need an argument for since you did such a good job telling me how awesome rdm is at surviving.

And Zekander, sorry I thought I used quotes before on Protey but I guess I did not. It was not aimed to you. I actually think you make a very valid point, however, they also left out cor, brd, and geo. All 3 of their main melee weapons are still B-/b+. And the thing that is in common with all of these jobs is that they are seen as support jobs. Therefore, I can see SE's reasoning for not increasing sword skills for rdm. Not saying I completely agree with it. I just understand it I guess lol. Now, as far as Dray goes, I highly doubt him trolling will effect any decisions made by the development team. However, the title of this post being "general complaints," I can see the dev team passing right over this post just because of the title. Rather then using complaint in the title, try using "general suggestions" or "suggestions for rdm" or something along those lines. Because you do have suggestions in your main post. But if the title doesn't bring them into the thread, then there is no point for those suggestions.

[Zekander]

I should have just named it Red VS Blue the way it's going.

I actually had no idea that COR's marksmanship skill was so bad and seeing as how they are pretty much built around guns this certainly makes no sense. BRD doesn't really need dagger skill as they have no reason solo anything and they need to run back and forth in battle too much to consider using it. Geo got stuck with a low club skill because it would have alienated the WHM community, I'm sure even giving them Hexa Strike was a pretty big offense to WHM melee enthusiasts, not to mention the fact that it would probably have unbalanced the job. Right now GEOs just stand in melee range giving massive buffs to anyone in range, if they were able to competently melee and even utilize those buffs for themselves they would really be overpowered as it would pretty much be like combining MNK and BRD except it doesn't need to waste any meleeing time casting spells.

I really don't think the thread title makes any difference, the last dev post in the RDM thread was in a completely mistaken rant titled "Gravity Nerf...", which they needn't have even bothered responding to as any player with half a brain would have told that guy to stfu and would have been right to do so. While there are a veritable slew of threads titled 'suggestion for rdm' that have gone completely ignored.

[mattkoko]

I should have just named it Red VS Blue the way it's going.

I actually had no idea that COR's marksmanship skill was so bad and seeing as how they are pretty much built around guns this certainly makes no sense. BRD doesn't really need dagger skill as they have no reason solo anything and they need to run back and forth in battle too much to consider using it. Geo got stuck with a low club skill because it would have alienated the WHM community, I'm sure even giving them Hexa Strike was a pretty big offense to WHM melee enthusiasts, not to mention the fact that it would probably have unbalanced the job. Right now GEOs just stand in melee range giving massive buffs to anyone in range, if they were able to competently melee and even utilize those buffs for themselves they would really be overpowered as it would pretty much be like combining MNK and BRD except it doesn't need to waste any meleeing time casting spells.

I really don't think the thread title makes any difference, the last dev post in the RDM thread was in a completely mistaken rant titled "Gravity Nerf...", which they needn't have even bothered responding to as any player with half a brain would have told that guy to stfu and would have been right to do so. While there are a veritable slew of threads titled 'suggestion for rdm' that have gone completely ignored.

Lol yea sorry about that. I just had to defend Blu. I don't want SE making an unnecessary nerf because someone claims them to be over powered when they are not. but I will refrain from adding to any more of the blu vs rdm discussion. I said my piece

I admit I just leveled cor to 99 and even I said the same thing about their main being guns and all. and it is true brd does not need dagger skills. I was just going by the pattern I noticed for all the support jobs. Now if they boosted cor marksmanship to A or A+ and they left out rdm sword, that would be a big wtf moment to me. Though, dnc I would think qualifies as a support job and they are getting A+ dagger skills. The only reason I can see for that though is that their steps depend on melee acc.

And yeah I do understand the frustration and you are probably right that SE probably wont reply to the thread. It is funny. In another thread, I mentioned that they either don't respond, they say "the dev team doesn't have plans" or they say, "we currently have plans and will be implemented in future updates." What is missing in this formula is they never say, "we currently have no plans for this but I will relay your ideas to the dev team and we will see where it goes from there." It seems as though they either ignore what the community says, or they just don't care what the community says. I hope this is not the case, but it is the impression that I and many others get judging by their responses. They don't do a great job in letting us know that our feedback means something. And I don't mean by them saying stuff like, "We appreciate your feedback," because they do say that every now and then. But their constant dismissing certain things by saying they don't have plans with out even giving a reason why, speaks volumes.

[mattkoko]

By the way, the fact that I mentioned dnc getting A+ skills may invite some thieves in here considering there is a whole other post on how thf is being overshadowed by dnc. So time to rename the title again lol.

[Protey]

Actually, there is no way to make erratic flutter last 8 minutes. I do however admit I am wrong that it only lasts 5 minutes. I even changed it just for you. I forgot about the update where they now add 5% duration per merit which makes it last very slightly over 6 minutes (still no where near 8 minutes). So my bad, sorry. But since you used 8 minutes, lets say it did last 8 minutes just for the sake of argument. That is still 2 minutes of everyone going with out haste and to a pld in many of the big fights, haste full time or close to it is important. I never claimed I know it all. But, you basically put blu out there making it sound like the absolute best job in the game and glorified the hell out of it when most of your examples are very poor and not as great as they sound on paper. You say don't use the set points argument, however it is a very big factor. Like I said, blu is a great job. Not taking anything away from it in the slightest. But it is hardly as overpowered as you say. Which is my main point.

And here we go, now we are talking about survivability solo. As far as solo goes, I stand by that many of your examples are poor. Again, they sound good on paper. You just admitted straight up that rdm is very capable of surviving. They have immediate access to all spells. Blu does not. Although we have many defensive spells, they either cost a lot of mp, or they don't last long enough to be of any use. And please don't tell me I am confused this time and say you are not talking about survivability because all of your spell examples are survivability spells that you used for blu in your claim of how over powered we are. By the way, I was not confused at all before either. You used AoE as a part of your example, so I used it back. I call it as I see it. You also used winds of promy as an example in your list of "Overpowering spells." So you say this is not about parties, but some of your examples say otherwise. But since we are not talking about parties anymore, if your DD skills are boosted for solo, don't you think your DD skills will be boosted for parties as well. All of these job adjustments they have been doing have not been to increase the solo skills for said jobs.

As far as you doing 80% dmg of a mnk (Not going to say it didn't happen because I was not there. Though seeing your pattern of over exaggerating of pretty much everything in your previous post, I do question it), if this is in fact true, then you obviously don't need A+ sword skill and enhanced enspells since that would be overpowering.

I still stand by my point, which you failed to mention anything about in your previous post, that rdm is seen as a support job. So if you are looking for balance, you would still want to compare rdm to brd, cor, and geo. Leave blu out of it because DD wise, blu is far from OP. And survivability wise, I don't even need an argument for since you did such a good job telling me how awesome rdm is at surviving.

And Zekander, sorry I thought I used quotes before on Protey but I guess I did not. It was not aimed to you. I actually think you make a very valid point, however, they also left out cor, brd, and geo. All 3 of their main melee weapons are still B-/b+. And the thing that is in common with all of these jobs is that they are seen as support jobs. Therefore, I can see SE's reasoning for not increasing sword skills for rdm. Not saying I completely agree with it. I just understand it I guess lol. Now, as far as Dray goes, I highly doubt him trolling will effect any decisions made by the development team. However, the title of this post being "general complaints," I can see the dev team passing right over this post just because of the title. Rather then using complaint in the title, try using "general suggestions" or "suggestions for rdm" or something along those lines. Because you do have suggestions in your main post. But if the title doesn't bring them into the thread, then there is no point for those suggestions.

ok here we go again... you are forgetting about relic feet: 5/5 merits = 25%, add feet, that's another 25%. so you're looking at 7.5 minutes. I put about 8 with a question mark because I knew it was somewhere around there. Sometimes I wonder if you play BLU as much as you say you do. Or maybe you just don't play it properly/gimped. You say I have a pattern of over exaggerating. where? that's right, I don't. I also question the things you say because you lumped a BLU in the PLD party. And you seem to think PLD needs haste. All events that a PLD is brought to is because there are RNGs. Decoy Shot says hi. Any other fights you don't bring PLDs because it is a waste. Sure, giving the PLD haste will benefit, but it's not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Maybe you play with a group of people in a non-standard way where you put BLUs in with PLDs, more power to you. The rest of us don't.

The reason I say those things about BLU is I've seen 2 BLUs in delve keep an NM terrorized for almost the entire duration of its life. I've seen a BLU be able to heavy gravity a ton of mobs and kite them in pinch situations or just spam that spell and kill them all at once. I've seen BLU erasega and fully heal the party as if it was a WHM. I've seen BLU with like 3000 defense (though I think he might have had a minne or two), my PLD doesn't come even close to that. I've seen mythic BLU with unlimited MP. I've seen BLU outparsing MNKs. The list goes on.

You state RDM is seen as a support job. This is your own bias. RDM is a jack-of-all trades; whether it be DD, support, tank, healer... I've done them all.

As to your comment regarding how I fared against that MNK, keep in mind that I am not anywhere near the average RDM. I have put massive amounts of time and effort into it and have pretty much the best gear in all aspects. You also need to keep in mind that the SAMs were doing over double the damage of the MNK. Now SAMs are waaaaaay OP.

[Protey]

By the way, the fact that I mentioned dnc getting A+ skills may invite some thieves in here considering there is a whole other post on how thf is being overshadowed by dnc. So time to rename the title again lol.

and how about them PUPs getting A+ skill. That leaves MNK only with counter and kick attacks to outparse the puppet.... not seeing that happening.

[Demonjustin]

Red VS BlueThey're brother jobs. It's only natural to compare them in my opinion. I understand how it seems somewhat derailing but if this is a thread for general complains about RDM then BLU is bound to pop up as a tool for comparison.


PUPsImpetus (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Impetus) is the main thing pulling MNK ahead of a PUP currently so far as I know. PUP has their Automaton to close other gaps, and that's before you count in Stringing Pummel, assuming it's the best H2H WS.

[Protey]

They're brother jobs. It's only natural to compare them in my opinion. I understand how it seems somewhat derailing but if this is a thread for general complains about RDM then BLU is bound to pop up as a tool for comparison.

Impetus (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Impetus) is the main thing pulling MNK ahead of a PUP currently so far as I know. PUP has their Automaton to close other gaps, and that's before you count in Stringing Pummel, assuming it's the best H2H WS.

once SE upgrades empyrean armor and we're able to wear body again I can see MNK really pulling ahead again. At least against PUP.... against SAM we don't stand a chance. The damage output difference between SAM and other DDs is so unreal.

[Malthar]

Dammit Protey, stop! You're giving Dray a big head.

[Dale]

You state RDM is seen as a support job. This is your own bias. RDM is a jack-of-all trades; whether it be DD, support, tank, healer... I've done them all.

.

But there is no conflict in that analysis. You can view Red Mage as a support job and still recognize they are able to fulfill many roles. That is partly why this class is such a powerful support tool to begin with. Because it can recognize a weakness in a current group and successfully fill that hole. No other job can do this to the extent Red Mage can - at least not that I have encountered so far.

So I would agree with both of you. They are a support job but also a jack of all trades.

[Shirai]

and how about them PUPs getting A+ skill. That leaves MNK only with counter and kick attacks to outparse the puppet.... not seeing that happening.

2 more levels of Martial arts, Boost (where aplicable), Skillchain Bonus 2, Focus.

As a Monk, I am not too afraid of being knocked off the list, most puppetmasters are terrible and the good ones deserve to be put on par.

[Dale]

They're brother jobs. It's only natural to compare them in my opinion. .

Blue Mage was SE's answer to dissatisfied Red Mages who wanted to play a more offensive melee combat role I suspect. So it would be an ideal choice for players like you who want to be a more effective melee while still maintaining your ability to defend yourself with magic.

So instead of players asking for the Red Mage to be made more like Blue Mages perhaps they should just play as a Blue Mage.

[Protey]

2 more levels of Martial arts, Boost (where aplicable), Skillchain Bonus 2, Focus.

As a Monk, I am not too afraid of being knocked off the list, most puppetmasters are terrible and the good ones deserve to be put on par.

I wouldn't include MA as part of that list. KKK + cirque necklace + augmented JSE cape puts a PUP at about 40 delay lower than a MNK. Even if you didn't include a KKK that's still only 10 delay behind that of a MNK.

[Shirai]

As you say yourself, it still takes a considerably well geared puppetmaster to be on par with monk. (Not counting the little droid.)
If they have the dedication to get geared like that then they belong there.

[edit]
That said however, taking Kenkonken out of the equation, where Puppetmasters are cramming items to compensate for the lower MA, Monk has the option for other pieces such as multi-hit, accuracy or attack.
Apart from that, there are several fairly powerful items which Monk can wear and Puppetmaster can't, like the Felistris Mask, Mekosuchinae harness and Anguinus and Caudata belts.
And let's not forget the ammo slot, which Puppetmaster is forced to sacrifice at all times. (Surely for a good cause, but it's still a sacrifice to the Puppetmaster's own DPS build)

While this doesn't really matter on fodder where most melee jobs cap acc/atk anyway, later on on mobs where Accuracy becomes an important factor (T2 Delve and level 128+ Incursion bosses) Puppetmaster will start falling behind on monk again.
And then there's also Monk's defensive capabilities giving them a little edge over Puppetmasters. :)
(I do hope they don't mind us debating this in a red mage thread, though. )

[Zekander]

Don't forget RUN, that job was created solely to overshadow RDM tanking, and GEO was stolen from suggestions for RDM abilities. So, no, if I want to play a melee mage I'd rather not play BLU.

I also play MNK and was slightly concerned about PUP getting an A+ in h2h, mostly because of their automaton, but everyone else seems to be discounting that entirely. Last I knew PUPs automaton could deal significant damage with their ranged or black magic frame. But my biggest concern was their white magic frame, how do guard and counter stand up against toting around your own personal WHM?

[Dale]

Don't forget RUN, that job was created solely to overshadow RDM tanking, and GEO was stolen from suggestions for RDM abilities. So, no, if I want to play a melee mage I'd rather not play BLU.



I don't understand. What does RUN and GEO have to do with the fact Blue Mage is a fighter/mage and an excellent job choice for someone who wants to play as a mage who melees?

RUN is an elemental tank. GEO, from all I have seen (which I admit isn't much) seems like a support-style black mage with aura-like abilities. So I don't see either of these as replacing Blue Mage as the ideal fighter/mage.

[Demonjustin]

Didn't you say earlier you easily cut though very/incredibly toughs with your Red Mage melee without using distract or any accuracy support trusts? Now suddenly you are saying we have accuracy issues? I have a hard time understanding your complaints.I believe you're thinking of someone else. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/44378-Useless-spells?p=526649&viewfull=1#post526649) That said, I'll still address this since it does apply to me in some respect. All VT/IT are not equal. On RDM I am capable of beating down basically any mob in Dho Gates with fair amounts of ease, they are for all intents and purposes classified as IT mobs. I require no Trusts nor do I require Distract for me to cap accuracy on these mobs. That said, Woh Gates is quite the opposite. They have high enough EVA that I require Accuracy Songs at very least on top of Food in order to cap Accuracy, and I think I need more than that still. Mind you I'm running what used to be the best possible Accuracy set for a RDM and I'm not likely to be far off still so these mobs are quite the issue.

All of that said, this is also assuming normal mobs are the extent of what you wish to fight. With songs I am capable of capping Accuracy on Gessho, the second most evasive NM of the MPNMs so far as I'm aware. That is on Difficult however, put me on Very Difficult and even in my high Accuracy set with full buffs and constantly keeping up Distract II and you'd see my Accuracy still quite a bit away from cap. Put me against AAMR and you'd see it get even worse, as generally I don't cap Accuracy on her even on Difficult in my Accuracy gear. So, it truly depends on the extent of what you wish to fight. If the mobs of Dho Gates are your only interest then RDM has no deep Accuracy issues and as such is fine as is. If you wish to push the limits and fight the hardest, most evasive mobs in the game, using gear sets built specifically to excel at such... you're going to be disapointed, and a large source of our missing Accuracy comes in the form of gear(specifically legs, for which we have no good Accuracy piece...) and our skill rating being only a B, rather than B+~A.


Anyway: I do half way agree with you here (though your previous posts seem to conflict with your current one) that Red Mages have a disadvantage in terms of accuracy when compared to melee jobs due to our lower rank. Where we disagree is you see this as a problem and I don't really. Because in the end this job is - a support mage- and not a melee class. And if you gear appropriately and make the needed sacrifices it is possible to overcome our accuracy issues. So it's a problem you can easily solve.Though I admittedly only read this after my last part of my reply, I believe my previous bit of this reply addresses this as well.


It appears you think we should have great shield skill too now as well. It seems you want everything. But we already have excellent defense potential so giving us a high shield skill would make us too powerful. That is an advantage Paladins have and need to keep.I believe you misunderstand. I am not saying we should have great shield skill, but rather, we should have skill to use a shield. For simplicity sake, I'll use a graph to show what I mean.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i372/demon6324236/SkillChart.png

This graph shows the skill at level 99 for every skill level and how it scales. As you can see, D, E, and F, are all far behind the others. The slope is insane at those levels, if you're in one of those 3 categories your skill is so far behind that to some extent you might as well not even have the skill at all. RDM is a F rank Shield user, our skill is literally 103 behind C-, which is the first reasonable amount of skill on the chart. I'm not asking for us to have A+ or even B, just C- alone would allow us to make use of our shield. Currently even with a Beatific Shield +1 which is our best option for shields, we have only 372 skill, just under a C rank level 99's skill. That's a 119 shield's skill added to our natural, that's to say at level 119 a RDM should be just barely able to block a good deal of attacks from level 99 targets. See what I mean about how bad that is? At least if we had a C- skill rank we'd end up with 475 skill with this shield, which would be far behind that of most jobs still, but enough we could at least use our 119 Shield on level 99(~105?) targets with some effect.


To be honest, the greatest impediment to Red Mage melee is not our accuracy. It's not our En Spells II. Nor is it our lower rank in sword. It is simply put that our role in combat is that of support - and that is where we are expected to perform to our fullest and at times melee can complicate our ability to do this. So how well we can melee depends almost entirely on the situation and how well balanced our current group is.

Part of what makes a Red Mage so powerful is it can adapt to pitch-hit for many different roles in a variety of different situations. And from what I have seen, they are better at this than any other job.While this is true, the main thing I take issue with is our capability to fill a melee role. The one and only time you truly go into an event asking for someone to be ready to switch it up on notice is when you've never done said event before. It's extremely rare for me to go into an event as a supporter via healing, buffing, and enfeebling, and during said event be asked to change to a frontline fighter Hasting, healing, and keeping up basic enfeebles. Ignoring the fact I use completely different subjobs for each of these roles and the fact no subjob can fit both well at once, it's simply not common to need such things.

I accept and admit our role in combat even on the frontlines largely includes support. That said, I don't think that is an excuse to rip away power from the job that it needs in order to close the gap between it and other jobs. As I said before, if we had even 80% of the damage of other jobs in equal gear then that'd be one thing. The fact of the matter is that it's not really the case, and the gap we do have isn't one that Haste II & Distract II can make up for alone. They are our only true support aspects we can keep up easily on the frontlines without drastically hindering our damage to the point of making us even less powerful/desirable.

[Zekander]

I don't understand this. What does RUN and GEO have to do with the fact Blue Mage is a fighter/mage and an excellent job choice for someone who wants to play as a mage who melees?

RUN is an elemental tank. GEO, from all I have seen (which I admit isn't much) seems like a support-style black mage with aura-like abilities. So I don't see either of these as replacing Blue Mage as the ideal fighter/mage.

I mentioned RUN because we were talking about replacements for melee RDM, and RUN takes all of RDMs best melee capabilities (Enspells, Phalanx, Stoneskin, elemental resistance and barspells, even Fast Cast) and adds on an A+ rank in a DD weapon. So if you want to play RDM melee, RUN was specifically designed for you.

Yeah I just threw GEO in there for no real reason, but you could argue that GEO overshadows RDM support/nuking capabilities.

Mostly I don't play BLU out of personal preference, I don't like it's style and the monstrosity of it. I do like RDMs style of a spell wielding noble fencer, and I would like to see that style come through in the gameplay.

[Demonjustin]

RDM is the mash up Jack-of-all-Trades, many jobs can primarily be seen as a simple combo of two of it's aspects.

RDM's meleeing + RDM's buffing = BLU
RDM's meleeing + RDM's nuking = DRK
RDM's meleeing + RDM's tanking = RUN
RDM's healing + RDM's tanking = PLD
RDM's healing + RDM's nuking = SCH
RDM's buffing + RDM's enfeebling = GEO

I admit it's a rather simple way of looking at things, but I think it's fairly accurate. The three brought up right now are BLU, GEO, and RUN, each of which admittedly are viable alternatives to RDM provided you're ok with limiting yourself to such roles. If you primarily like RDM's meleeing power you're likely to find BLU and RUN interesting as they focus on that sort of melee power as well as one other massive aspect, and a few minor ones. For instance, a BLU can enfeeble or a RUN can buff, they just don't do it very well. I personally like RDM more than any of these alternatives.

[Protey]

I agree with demonjustin's request to raise RDM shield skill to C-. It's not a ridiculous request, it won't break anything. It will only allow us to have a somewhat decent rate of blocking on fodder mobs (except Woh gates... those guys are too high level). On NMs we still won't block anything.

It's kind of shameful that a whm has higher shield skill than we do.

[Malthar]

Same; I've always found RDM's shield skill kind off off-pudding. However, it should be raised more than a C-1, as Protey suggests, to at minimum a B-, and perhaps have a RDM specific shield that has an increased block rate.

[Selindrile]

To answer your statements:

winds of promyvion (erasega) - other jobs have to either use stratagems or be a mythic whm

Must be within melee range unlike using strategems, whm empy+2 hat also gives 10% chance of AoEing without mythic, and of course divine seal also, however, Winds is quite nice.

barrier tusk - allows them to go 15% past the PDT cap.... hmmm where have i heard that before, o PLD and RUN mythics

Barrier tusk doesn't break PDT cap, didn't last long enough to be useful before this patch, I haven't set in years, though they're increasing duration the duration this patch, doubt it'll be enough to fit it into my spells.

Subduction - gives aoe potent gravity, recast of 5 seconds, and does quite a bit of damage... RDM gravity 2 is single target, recast of 75 seconds, and does no damage

Subduction is useful only for cleaving, I don't set it for endgame content, Gravity 2 isn't terribly useful either, with the evasion component removed for most content, rarely useful in incursion, but not really.

Occultation - gives shadows based on blu skill... up to what, 10 shadows?
Occultation costs a whopping 138 MP, unless you have a tizona or are in abyssea, you're not using this spell effectively.

Cocoon - 50% defense boost. nearest anything comes to this is defender from WAR
Good spell admittedly, subbable, and I do occasionally Pld/Blu when supertanking, hardly end-all-beat-all.

Stun with very low recast time. - Doesn't work on NMs, useful for trash.
Incredibly long lasting terror. - 5 Minute recast, doesn't last long on most NMs, but a few are susceptible.
AoE Sleep. - Useful, but don't usually find room to put this in endgame sets.
AoE Haste 2 - Not much of a place for it, situationally useful but in both delve and incursion you get haste wiped on quite a few mobs, and Blu can't reapply, Rdms then have to, but it's a nice self buff.

The limitation is the crux of the argument, Blu can't be a reasonably effective DD without devoting the vast majority of their 70 set points (which few Blus have, though I do have all 70) to DDing. Utility is nice, but generally it's not enough to get an invite.

This is the heart of the matter is, do you see shouts for Blu? The last time I did was VW era, and that was because of procs.
If Blu was OP it would be one of the core jobs that is actually be shouted for, actively invited and used for content. It's one of the many middle-accepted jobs that people will allow you to go if they know you don't suck at it, much like War or Drk.

I'm not saying Rdm couldn't stand some buffs in some areas, but Blu comes short of Rdm in endgame desirability overall, hands down, being OP is more than just raw damage, but at the end of the day, if people don't desire the job, it's clearly not OP, because people desire OP jobs.

[Protey]

To answer your statements:

winds of promyvion (erasega) - other jobs have to either use stratagems or be a mythic whm

Must be within melee range unlike using strategems, whm empy+2 hat also gives 10% chance of AoEing without mythic, and of course divine seal also, however, Winds is quite nice.

barrier tusk - allows them to go 15% past the PDT cap.... hmmm where have i heard that before, o PLD and RUN mythics

Barrier tusk doesn't break PDT cap, didn't last long enough to be useful before this patch, I haven't set in years, though they're increasing duration the duration this patch, doubt it'll be enough to fit it into my spells.

Subduction - gives aoe potent gravity, recast of 5 seconds, and does quite a bit of damage... RDM gravity 2 is single target, recast of 75 seconds, and does no damage

Subduction is useful only for cleaving, I don't set it for endgame content, Gravity 2 isn't terribly useful either, with the evasion component removed for most content, rarely useful in incursion, but not really.

Occultation - gives shadows based on blu skill... up to what, 10 shadows?
Occultation costs a whopping 138 MP, unless you have a tizona or are in abyssea, you're not using this spell effectively.

Cocoon - 50% defense boost. nearest anything comes to this is defender from WAR
Good spell admittedly, subbable, and I do occasionally Pld/Blu when supertanking, hardly end-all-beat-all.

Stun with very low recast time. - Doesn't work on NMs, useful for trash.
Incredibly long lasting terror. - 5 Minute recast, doesn't last long on most NMs, but a few are susceptible.
AoE Sleep. - Useful, but don't usually find room to put this in endgame sets.
AoE Haste 2 - Not much of a place for it, situationally useful but in both delve and incursion you get haste wiped on quite a few mobs, and Blu can't reapply, Rdms then have to, but it's a nice self buff.

The limitation is the crux of the argument, Blu can't be a reasonably effective DD without devoting the vast majority of their 70 set points (which few Blus have, though I do have all 70) to DDing. Utility is nice, but generally it's not enough to get an invite.

This is the heart of the matter is, do you see shouts for Blu? The last time I did was VW era, and that was because of procs.
If Blu was OP it would be one of the core jobs that is actually be shouted for, actively invited and used for content. It's one of the many middle-accepted jobs that people will allow you to go if they know you don't suck at it, much like War or Drk.

I'm not saying Rdm couldn't stand some buffs in some areas, but Blu comes short of Rdm in endgame desirability overall, hands down, being OP is more than just raw damage, but at the end of the day, if people don't desire the job, it's clearly not OP, because people desire OP jobs.

I've never seen a BLU not in range to cast winds of promy.
Barrier tusk is a 15% reduction on top of 50% PDT cap. for a total of 65% reduction.
subduction is good for kiting a ton of mobs at once.
occultation: sorry used to playing with a BLU that has tizona and limitless MP.

I keep on seeing this argument about shouts for BLU. I do everything with my LS or solo rather than PUG... cuz PUG suck. The people who shout are usually gimps who don't even know much about the game, can't get a LS, but want to do things and so don't even recognize the utility of BLU. Any time I take a risk and join a PUG I am always mortified at how bad people are and the event almost always ends in failure. That's why I don't see shouts for BLU vs RDM as a viable argument.

[Selindrile]

I've never seen a BLU not in range to cast winds of promy.
Barrier tusk is a 15% reduction on top of 50% PDT cap. for a total of 65% reduction.
subduction is good for kiting a ton of mobs at once.
occultation: sorry used to playing with a BLU that has tizona and limitless MP.

I keep on seeing this argument about shouts for BLU. I do everything with my LS or solo rather than PUG... cuz PUG suck. The people who shout are usually gimps who don't even know much about the game, can't get a LS, but want to do things and so don't even recognize the utility of BLU. Any time I take a risk and join a PUG I am always mortified at how bad people are and the event almost always ends in failure. That's why I don't see shouts for BLU vs RDM as a viable argument.

Yes blu is in range, but point was, when hit with disables Blu may or may not be able to cast winds of promy to remove whatever, just pointing out a limitation.

I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken that Barrier Tusk didn't bypass PDT cap will have to look again to see if it does.

I'm envious of the Tizona, but that's not the case for most of us.

I'm also in a LS, but I never get to come Blu to anything though it's my best geared job, I always have to come Rdm ironically (for Incursion/Delve), or Whm, or Sam for anything else.

I PUG difficults and Incursion frequently, there are plenty of bads out there, but there's plenty of successful events too... shouts are just an indicator of overall demand, which is completely a valid argument.

[mattkoko]

ok here we go again... you are forgetting about relic feet: 5/5 merits = 25%, add feet, that's another 25%. so you're looking at 7.5 minutes. I put about 8 with a question mark because I knew it was somewhere around there. Sometimes I wonder if you play BLU as much as you say you do. Or maybe you just don't play it properly/gimped. You say I have a pattern of over exaggerating. where? that's right, I don't. I also question the things you say because you lumped a BLU in the PLD party. And you seem to think PLD needs haste. All events that a PLD is brought to is because there are RNGs. Decoy Shot says hi. Any other fights you don't bring PLDs because it is a waste. Sure, giving the PLD haste will benefit, but it's not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Maybe you play with a group of people in a non-standard way where you put BLUs in with PLDs, more power to you. The rest of us don't.

The reason I say those things about BLU is I've seen 2 BLUs in delve keep an NM terrorized for almost the entire duration of its life. I've seen a BLU be able to heavy gravity a ton of mobs and kite them in pinch situations or just spam that spell and kill them all at once. I've seen BLU erasega and fully heal the party as if it was a WHM. I've seen BLU with like 3000 defense (though I think he might have had a minne or two), my PLD doesn't come even close to that. I've seen mythic BLU with unlimited MP. I've seen BLU outparsing MNKs. The list goes on.

You state RDM is seen as a support job. This is your own bias. RDM is a jack-of-all trades; whether it be DD, support, tank, healer... I've done them all.

As to your comment regarding how I fared against that MNK, keep in mind that I am not anywhere near the average RDM. I have put massive amounts of time and effort into it and have pretty much the best gear in all aspects. You also need to keep in mind that the SAMs were doing over double the damage of the MNK. Now SAMs are waaaaaay OP.

So I know I said I would not add anymore to the blu vs red mage portion of this thread but considering more and more jobs seem to be getting involved I figured it wouldn't hurt lol

So I stand corrected again. And again admit I am wrong. But it's alright. Hey, in order to learn, ya gotta get hit in the head a couple times. In this case I facepalmed myself twice. As for your comment about me possibly being gimped, I honestly did not really look toward relic for blu yet mainly because my my main job is drk and been so focused on decking that out (full 119 and filling in some gear swap slots to boost utility type stuff). I took about a year break and came back on the day they increased Ilevel to 119. Blu is my second main. Is it gimped now? I wouldn't say that, but I would say it would be about average as I have played it a bit and made improvements (blu has helped me a great deal with soloing some of the battle fields for chapters 1-5 so having at least a 119 weapon with some 119 pieces I felt was necessary). As far as me bringing blu and pld in the same party, it is something I have done, but I was not talking about that specifically. I was talking about haste in general. Coming back I quickly realized I had to level whm to get into anything because it was either 119 or gtfo unless your a whm or brd. And no matter what job I came to an event in, if there was a pld the main thing every pld asked for was haste (along with pretty much every DD other then rng). Your argument, was talking about aoe buffs, and my main argument back is, if people want buffs, they are not going to look to a blu that can aoe buffs every 10 minutes. They are going to look to a job that can keep those buffs up full time rather then only 80% of the time. It is Utility at best.

As far as me being bias to rdm, keep in mind, I have always seen rdm as a jack of all trades as well. However, it seems like SE is making them into a support class because jack of all trades is nice solo, and in some strategic party situations, but master of non doesn't get you into groups unless you established yourself well enough to others (which it seems like you have since you completely decked out your rdm). To counter this, SEs last rdm updated introduced spells in the support department in the way of debuffs. Which is why I link them in the support department considering that seems to be the direction they are taking. The same goes for blu though in a different way. I have used blu to tank, heal, buff, debuff etc. However, this does not get you into groups as i said before. If they want a healer, they are going to get the best possible healer (whm although I have seen some pretty amazing Sch fill this role as well). If they want a buffer or a support, they are going to get a brd. Next in line is usually cor, geo and rdm if they cannot find a brd (though from what I have seen, geo is getting better and I have also been with some rdms filling the support role). To counter this for blu though, they gave a pretty decent boost to their physical spells, to put them more in the DD category. Now with all of this said, I do not disagree with you. I certainly don't think increased enspells or giving them sword A or A+ will break the job in anyway. But it seems all of the job adjustment updates have been to get more jobs in group content, rather then solo content.

I do apologize for getting a little snippy. I sensed some attitude toward blu from you and I jumped to the defensive. As far as your pattern of exaggerating comment, you made every single spell that you listed seem way more glorified then they actually are. The only spell you listed that was not blown up too much was cocoon and AT (again, considering AT for a while is all we were wanted for and still in some cases that is the only reason we are able to participate). However in your previous posts, your examples were much more realistic. However, I still wouldn't say they are over powered just because you still have to sacrifice to be able to do any of the rolls effectively due to spell set points, where rdm can adapt in a pinch. I do agree with you that mythic blu is beyond OP. But you can say the same about many of the mythic wielders. Now back in the abyssea era, if you came in and said blu was op, I would not disagree with you in the slightest. Blu was beyond over powered in abyssea with the right gear and atmas.

[Metaking]

dont wanna get draged into this but one thing barrier tusk's effect is applied after pdt so if you are at 50% pdt its effect only goes past cap by 7.5%, and cocoon is a little op, i mean full pdt wars getting one shoted by merciless mauling but blus with coccon and 50% pdt barely dropping to yellow.

Ps. a blu inside incursion should never have mp problems ever before hitting 129 level

[Dale]

I believe you're thinking of someone else. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/44378-Useless-spells?p=526649&viewfull=1#post526649) That said, I'll still address this since it does apply to me in some respect. All VT/IT are not equal. On RDM I am capable of beating down basically any mob in Dho Gates with fair amounts of ease, they are for all intents and purposes classified as IT mobs. I require no Trusts nor do I require Distract for me to cap accuracy on these mobs. That said, Woh Gates is quite the opposite. They have high enough EVA that I require Accuracy Songs at very least on top of Food in order to cap Accuracy, and I think I need more than that still. Mind you I'm running what used to be the best possible Accuracy set for a RDM and I'm not likely to be far off still so these mobs are quite the issue.

All of that said, this is also assuming normal mobs are the extent of what you wish to fight. With songs I am capable of capping Accuracy on Gessho, the second most evasive NM of the MPNMs so far as I'm aware. That is on Difficult however, put me on Very Difficult and even in my high Accuracy set with full buffs and constantly keeping up Distract II and you'd see my Accuracy still quite a bit away from cap. Put me against AAMR and you'd see it get even worse, as generally I don't cap Accuracy on her even on Difficult in my Accuracy gear. So, it truly depends on the extent of what you wish to fight. If the mobs of Dho Gates are your only interest then RDM has no deep Accuracy issues and as such is fine as is. If you wish to push the limits and fight the hardest, most evasive mobs in the game, using gear sets built specifically to excel at such... you're going to be disapointed, and a large source of our missing Accuracy comes in the form of gear(specifically legs, for which we have no good Accuracy piece...) and our skill rating being only a B, rather than B+~A.

Though I admittedly only read this after my last part of my reply, I believe my previous bit of this reply addresses this as well.

I believe you misunderstand. I am not saying we should have great shield skill, but rather, we should have skill to use a shield. For simplicity sake, I'll use a graph to show what I mean.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i372/demon6324236/SkillChart.png

This graph shows the skill at level 99 for every skill level and how it scales. As you can see, D, E, and F, are all far behind the others. The slope is insane at those levels, if you're in one of those 3 categories your skill is so far behind that to some extent you might as well not even have the skill at all. RDM is a F rank Shield user, our skill is literally 103 behind C-, which is the first reasonable amount of skill on the chart. I'm not asking for us to have A+ or even B, just C- alone would allow us to make use of our shield. Currently even with a Beatific Shield +1 which is our best option for shields, we have only 372 skill, just under a C rank level 99's skill. That's a 119 shield's skill added to our natural, that's to say at level 119 a RDM should be just barely able to block a good deal of attacks from level 99 targets. See what I mean about how bad that is? At least if we had a C- skill rank we'd end up with 475 skill with this shield, which would be far behind that of most jobs still, but enough we could at least use our 119 Shield on level 99(~105?) targets with some effect.

While this is true, the main thing I take issue with is our capability to fill a melee role. The one and only time you truly go into an event asking for someone to be ready to switch it up on notice is when you've never done said event before. It's extremely rare for me to go into an event as a supporter via healing, buffing, and enfeebling, and during said event be asked to change to a frontline fighter Hasting, healing, and keeping up basic enfeebles. Ignoring the fact I use completely different subjobs for each of these roles and the fact no subjob can fit both well at once, it's simply not common to need such things.

I accept and admit our role in combat even on the frontlines largely includes support. That said, I don't think that is an excuse to rip away power from the job that it needs in order to close the gap between it and other jobs. As I said before, if we had even 80% of the damage of other jobs in equal gear then that'd be one thing. The fact of the matter is that it's not really the case, and the gap we do have isn't one that Haste II & Distract II can make up for alone. They are our only true support aspects we can keep up easily on the frontlines without drastically hindering our damage to the point of making us even less powerful/desirable.

Wow what a post, complete with graphs and all. So since you took so much effort to write it I'll read it word for word and try to comment.

You admit you can cap your accuracy against even some of the highest evasive monsters in the entire game. So I don't see a real issue with Red Mage and our accuracy. Chances are if we are having trouble hitting something when we are decked out in accuracy gear other Melee are as well. Some monsters are just hard to hit.

If you want to give us a C in shield I got no real issues with that. Long as it stays far beneath the Paladin.

Where we disagree is you don't think a Red Mage can fill a melee role. And I do. Under normal situations I feel I compare quite well with the other melee in the group when I'm in full Melee mode. Yes, they will pull ahead of me when they self-chain and do massive burst damage or round up a lot of monsters and sweep them with a massive AoE weapon skill. But in normal situations Red Mage does just fine.

From what I read of your post - what you want to be able to do is 80% of the best damage in the game while still being able to play support and enhance your party and enfeeble your enemy. And I retain - as I have since the beginning of this debate - that would simply be too powerful. If you want to support your group - especially to the effective extent that a Red Mage can - you need to pay a heavy price in terms of your damage. Else actual melee damage dealing classes would become too weak by comparison. Because why bring a melee DPS if you can bring a Red mage who does only 20% less damage yet can heal, enfeeble and enhance the group so effectively?

I really do feel Red Mages who are dissatisfied with their melee damage should go try a Blue Mage out. That is a melee/mage job with an actual focus on offense. Because Red Mage is not designed to be an offensive job. They are a mixed bag of many different jobs and designed for players who want to do a little bit of everything. You are never going to be a pillar of offense. Nor should they be.

[Dale]

I mentioned RUN because we were talking about replacements for melee RDM, and RUN takes all of RDMs best melee capabilities (Enspells, Phalanx, Stoneskin, elemental resistance and barspells, even Fast Cast) and adds on an A+ rank in a DD weapon. So if you want to play RDM melee, RUN was specifically designed for you.

Yeah I just threw GEO in there for no real reason, but you could argue that GEO overshadows RDM support/nuking capabilities.

Mostly I don't play BLU out of personal preference, I don't like it's style and the monstrosity of it. I do like RDMs style of a spell wielding noble fencer, and I would like to see that style come through in the gameplay.

Yes but your issue with Red Mage seems to be a lack in melee damage. RUN is defensive by nature where as BLU is offensive by nature and very skilled with one-handed swords. So it would be the perfect fit for the style of play you are looking for. Because Red mage is not a high damage melee job. They are better described as a jack of all trades as one poster said and I feel that is an apt description.

So instead of asking for the developers to change the job to suit your own personal style and turn them into offensive swordsmen, wouldn't it be better to just play one of the jobs that actually do already give you the style of play you are looking for?

I'll admit Blue Mage is intimidating to level but I if you want to be a fighter/mage that does high damage it really is the way to go and would pay off big in the end for you. Because you are likely never to be satisfied as a Red Mage given your orientation toward being offensive with a sword.

Also, this game has enough damage dealing classes already. It doesn't need another in my opinion and I would hate to see Red Mage go down that path.

[Dale]

I agree with demonjustin's request to raise RDM shield skill to C-. It's not a ridiculous request, it won't break anything. It will only allow us to have a somewhat decent rate of blocking on fodder mobs (except Woh gates... those guys are too high level). On NMs we still won't block anything.

It's kind of shameful that a whm has higher shield skill than we do.

I agree. A C- won't hurt anything. Though I don't really see a need for it. But I got no beef with giving us a C-. As long as they remain far behind Paladin.

[Zekander]

I really don't want RDM to be a melee DD either, I too think even 80% of a high end DD would be too much. An A- in sword would no where near accomplish that. What I do want is for the general public to accept RDM melee as an acceptable option under certain circumstances, and I feel that an A- combat skill would help in that regard. You all agree that RDM can already melee competently, but unfortunately the vast majority of FFXI players do not believe so.

[Dale]

I really don't want RDM to be a melee DD either, I too think even 80% of a high end DD would be too much. An A- in sword would no where near accomplish that. What I do want is for the general public to accept RDM melee as an acceptable option under certain circumstances, and I feel that an A- combat skill would help in that regard. You all agree that RDM can already melee competently, but unfortunately the vast majority of FFXI players do not believe so.

I think your real problem Zek is you hang out with the wrong crowd. And giving a Red Mage an A- or even an A+ isn't going to make these players you are talking about any more accepting of a Red mage who melees.

I've been in groups where a player was berating all the damage dealers that wasn't a monk and telling them to go level a monk else they are a waste of melee. Some people are just like that. And to try and appease these types of players would be an endless and unsuccessful chore SE need not embark on.

Bottom line is Red Mage can melee, no matter what these other players you are referring to think.

[Protey]

I think your real problem Zek is you hang out with the wrong crowd. And giving a Red Mage an A- or even an A+ isn't going to make these players you are talking about any more accepting of a Red mage who melees.

I've been in groups where a player was berating all the damage dealers that wasn't a monk and telling them to go level a monk else they are a waste of melee. Some people are just like that. And to try and appease these types of players would be an endless and unsuccessful chore SE need not embark on.

Bottom line is Red Mage can melee, no matter what these other players you are referring to think.

Yes, currently the trend is: if you aren't SAM, you suck. ; ;

[Zekander]

/sigh

So apparently Red Mage is perfect in every way, it's just the world that's flawed...

[Demonjustin]

I'm not bad, everyone else is just a lot better than me.

[Shirai]

I think your real problem Zek is you hang out with the wrong crowd. And giving a Red Mage an A- or even an A+ isn't going to make these players you are talking about any more accepting of a Red mage who melees.

I've been in groups where a player was berating all the damage dealers that wasn't a monk and telling them to go level a monk else they are a waste of melee. Some people are just like that. And to try and appease these types of players would be an endless and unsuccessful chore SE need not embark on.

Bottom line is Red Mage can melee, no matter what these other players you are referring to think.

If all the melee are hasted, the rangers and corsairs have flurry, the mages have refresh and the mobs we're fighting is crippled to oblivion, you have my permission to melee.
But if even one person is left without a necesarry buff for even 5 seconds, we're not even going to have the talk.

If meleeing is anywhere but the last place on your priorities list you have no right to claim a spot in group content.

[Dale]

/sigh

So apparently Red Mage is perfect in every way, it's just the world that's flawed...

Bit of an exaggeration there Zek. I melee all the time on my Red Mage. No one has ever laughed at me for it or told me I shouldn't be. And believe it or not, we're part of this world too. So it's not the world that's flawed. Just the players you hang with. Not everyone is like that. And I would seriously consider looking into finding new players to group with.

And you are putting words in my mouth. I never said Red Mage is perfect in every way. What I did say was they can melee just fine. Which they can.

[Dale]

If all the melee are hasted, the rangers and corsairs have flurry, the mages have refresh and the mobs we're fighting is crippled to oblivion, you have my permission to melee.
But if even one person is left without a necesarry buff for even 5 seconds, we're not even going to have the talk.

If meleeing is anywhere but the last place on your priorities list you have no right to claim a spot in group content.

Just for the record Shirai, but I don't need your permission to do anything on my Red Mage.

Bottom line is if you don't like how someone plays then don't play with them. Simple as that. But players should never make the mistake of thinking they somehow have a right to dictate how other people should be playing just because they don't agree with it.

[Dale]

I'm not bad, everyone else is just a lot better than me.

Yes other jobs are better than you at melee damage. But they also can't heal/enhance/nuke/enfeeble as effectively either. You have to pay a price for your broad range of abilities, else the class would be too powerful.

[Dale]

Yes, currently the trend is: if you aren't SAM, you suck. ; ;

Unfortunately it's just a sad fact of MMORPGs that elitist players like this exist. I find the best thing to do is just ignore them and don't bother with the trends they try to stir up. Because any player who starts trying to appease the opinions of people like that are going to have a very miserable game experience.

[Protey]

Unfortunately it's just a sad fact of MMORPGs that elitist players like this exist. I find the best thing to do is just ignore them and don't bother with the trends they try to stir up. Because any player who starts trying to appease the opinions of people like that are going to have a very miserable game experience.

I agree. If you can complete the content with a slightly less powerful DD, who cares? You still completed the content.

[Dale]

I agree. If you can complete the content with a slightly less powerful DD, who cares? You still completed the content.

That's how I feel about it too. Long as you win in the end, that's what really matters.

[Shirai]

Just for the record Shirai, but I don't need your permission to do anything on my Red Mage.

Bottom line is if you don't like how someone plays then don't play with them. Simple as that. But players should never make the mistake of thinking they somehow have a right to dictate how other people should be playing just because they don't agree with it.

I don't care how you play, as long as you perform your core duties.
Which is make the group you go with perform better.

If you neglect those because you find it more important to play with your fleuret, you are detrimental to the team.

The 0.1% extra damage you bring is not going to compensate for the lack of output by real dds that aren't buffed.

So in short, having fun is fine but remember where your job's priorities lie.

[Dale]

I don't care how you play, as long as you perform your core duties.
Which is make the group you go with perform better.

If you neglect those because you find it more important to play with your fleuret, you are detrimental to the team.

The 0.1% extra damage you bring is not going to compensate for the lack of output by real dds that aren't buffed.

So in short, having fun is fine but remember where your job's priorities lie.

But you don't decide another player's priorities for them Shirai. They do. And as I said, if you don't like how a certain person plays their class, then don't play with them. It's that simple.

And adopting this dismissive and exaggerated attitude toward Red Mage melee by saying they only bring 0.1% extra damage does no one any good. It also helps contribute to the toxic atmosphere that some on this forum - such as that Zek guy - are dealing with. Because no matter what you may think, Red Mage are capable melee and can fill a DD role. I know this because I've seen it with my own two eyes. So trust me, they can do a lot more than play with their fleuret. They can actually kill things with it too.

Truth is Red Mage has a very broad range of abilities and are capable of playing effectively in many different ways. They are not limited to just being a haste/refresh bot for you and your party members. And no one is forcing you to play with Red Mages who melee anyway. So I would ask you to stop mocking them. It's both unnecessary and unwarranted.

[Shirai]

The thing is, if you actually play the mage part of your job; Then you are casting spells at least half the time, which means that you are not swinging your sword, which in return is a considerable loss in DPS.
Then there's the part where a proper mage casts spells in optimized gear to make sure that the spell does not get resisted on your enemy and in case of buffs, that you have an casting rate which is as fast as possible and at the same time has an as fast recast as possible because in the case of buffs in a proper setup you should be casting the spell on the next person.
Proper casting gear is not melee gear, which means that for the split second you are swapping back to a melee set you'll likely miss half the strikes.
Unless you are one of those that believes that swapping gear is cheating of course.

I'll simplify above a little for you.

Red mage -> Spellcaster

Let's look up a little description of the job Red mage:

Their real strengths lie in their mastery of enhancing and enfeebling skills when within a party, and leveraging their many "trades" against their enemies when outside of one.


Their real strengths lie in their mastery of enhancing and enfeebling skills when within a party


enhancing and enfeebling skills when within a party
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Red_Mage

Time to use your sword?

when outside of one.

[Dale]

The thing is, if you actually play the mage part of your job; Then you are casting spells at least half the time, which means that you are not swinging your sword, which in return is a considerable loss in DPS.
Then there's the part where a proper mage casts spells in optimized gear to make sure that the spell does not get resisted on your enemy and in case of buffs, that you have an casting rate which is as fast as possible and at the same time has an as fast recast as possible because in the case of buffs in a proper setup you should be casting the spell on the next person.
Proper casting gear is not melee gear, which means that for the split second you are swapping back to a melee set you'll likely miss half the strikes.
Unless you are one of those that believes that swapping gear is cheating of course.

I'll simplify above a little for you.

Red mage -> Spellcaster

Let's look up a little description of the job Red mage:





http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Red_Mage

Time to use your sword?


I'm not going to debate with you on the correct way to play a Red Mage. It's an endless and futile discussion with many different factors involved. Not to mention it's all just basically an opinion in the end anyway. Because there is no one right way to play Red Mage. It's a complex class with many different possibilities.

Also I should point out Red Mages have an assortment of melee-based spells for a reason. So arguing it's against their design doesn't make any sense to me. And it's very possible in many many situations to melee while still easily cast spells to support your party members. So I just disagree with your entire premise. Your real problem sounds more like an issue with this game's cumbersome gear-swapping mechanic which I can sympathize with. But that's neither here nor there.

But again - though tempting as it may be - I'm not going to get lured into a discussion on when it's acceptable to melee or when it isn't. That's an individual decision for each Red mage to make on his/her own.

What I am comfortable saying is that the Red Mage is perfectly capable of melee on this game and can be effective at it. And that's all I've said. Now when to employ that ability is ultimately up to the Red Mage. Sometimes I consider it ideal. Sometimes I don't. But it's not up to you or me for that matter when other Red Mages do it. It's their decision.

So to sum it up: I believe you to have a very limited view of the Red Mage and it's one I don't share. You are welcome to your opinion. Just don't mock or make fun of those of us who don't share it is all. Because you have your way of playing. And others have their way of playing. Neither is right or wrong if they both succeed at what they are trying to accomplish. And I can tell you without a doubt that there are plenty of successful Red Mages out there who melee in groups.

[Zekander]

That description is from a player generated site and thus reflects only the public opinion of the job.

Here's what SE has to say about RDM:

"These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."

also

"Capable of using both white and black magic, and adept at swordsmanship.
However, mastering powerful spells takes far longer than white or black mages."

and just in case you need it:

Adept

adjective
1. very skilled; proficient; expert:
"an adept juggler."

noun, adept
2. a skilled or proficient person; expert.

[Dale]

That description is from a player generated site and thus reflects only the public opinion of the job.

Here's what SE has to say about RDM:

"These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."

also

"Capable of using both white and black magic, and adept at swordsmanship.
However, mastering powerful spells takes far longer than white or black mages."

and just in case you need it:

Adept

adjective
1. very skilled; proficient; expert:
"an adept juggler."

noun, adept
2. a skilled or proficient person; expert.

There is nothing in that Wiki description she linked that says Red mage should only use their sword when outside of a party anyway. So the site she is quoting as evidence doesn't really say that. She just partially quotes when outside of one and sticks it in some box that says when to use a sword to give the impression that it says that. But it doesn't.

So I wouldn't say the site reflects her views. And that Wiki description didn't really say anything I disagree with because the strength of a Red Mage is in their mastery over enhancing and enfeebling magic. What she neglects to mention though is that much of the Red Mage's enhancing magic is used to strengthen melee. And it's precisely their mastery of enhancing magic in the first place that makes them effective with a sword.

So for her to suggest that a description stating the real strength of a Red Mage is their mastery over enhancing magic while in a group somehow means they aren't suppose to melee is a contradiction in and of itself. That's like saying the real strength of a Black Mage is in black magic but they aren't suppose to nuke while in a party.

[Zekander]

I guess I can see now why RDM gets so few updates. The only people I've seen so far on the forums are white knights who think RDM is perfect and people who play other jobs complaining that it's overpowered. I'm sure that the majority of people who play RDM would like to see some changes, but it seems they don't frequent these forums.

I am of the opinion that all the jobs need to be rebalanced, both up and down, and the only way we will ever see any changes is to express our dissatisfaction with the way things are now.

[Dale]

I guess I can see now why RDM gets so few updates. The only people I've seen so far on the forums are white knights who think RDM is perfect and people who play other jobs complaining that it's overpowered. I'm sure that the majority of people who play RDM would like to see some changes, but it seems they don't frequent these forums.

I am of the opinion that all the jobs need to be rebalanced, both up and down, and the only way we will ever see any changes is to express our dissatisfaction with the way things are now.

No job is perfect Zekander - and I recognize that. But I'm not going to sell the job short in areas where I believe it is already effective.

For example: you continually give the impression this job can't melee effectively when I think it can. I'm not trying to be a white knight about it. You are just criticizing the job unfairly in my opinion.

If you think this job is weak now you should have played it back in the early days when it really was horrible. No composure or enhancing duration gear - so by the time you cast all your enhancements it was basically time to cast them again. It was pathetic and all you really could do was cast haste and refresh on the group and sleep the occasional add and enfeeble. But the developers addressed this problem and fixed it - giving us the tools we needed to be able to melee. So I would be remiss if I didn't give them credit when they actually fixed the problem.

[Zekander]

From my experience with RDM so far I would say that a buffed RDM (temper, haste 2, enspell) is about equal to an unbuffed MNK. I don't have the tools to test this theory numerically so this is just from my experience using both jobs for various solo activities (dynamis, salvage, meriting, etc). Now from a solo perspective this is very well balanced. However in parties the gap widens considerably, imo to the point where RDM in melee is no longer worthwhile, given the fact that the Monk gains further outside buffs while the Red Mage is pretty much still limited to only what he can cast on himself. The reason you are seeing only a small gap on Wopket is because Wopket is vulnerable to slashing damage, hence why SAMs completely destroy him, so this really can't be used as a valid example of RDM melee prowess.

To be fair I'm not extremely displeased with RDMs melee capability. I'm more upset with the mindset of the majority of players who refuse to allow RDMs to even try to melee. So far I've only made 2 or 3 suggestions to improve RDMs melee capability, and they are all very minor changes: A- sword skill, Improved En-spells, and Bravery. And all I've received so far is aggressive opposition from virtually everyone.

[Dale]

To be fair I'm not extremely displeased with RDMs melee capability. I'm more upset with the mindset of the majority of players who refuse to allow RDMs to even try to melee. So far I've only made 2 or 3 suggestions to improve RDMs melee capability, and they are all very minor changes: A- sword skill, Improved En-spells, and Bravery. And all I've received so far is aggressive opposition from virtually everyone.

You are singing to the choir about that. I don't much like the mindset of many players on this game either. And that is 99% of the problem right there.

And I don't really aggressively oppose any of your actual ideas. It's usually just the way you present them - such as this spell being useless etc. But I'm glad to hear you aren't extremely displeased with RDM melee at least. That's a start :).

[Selindrile]

ok here we go again... you are forgetting about relic feet: 5/5 merits = 25%, add feet, that's another 25%. so you're looking at 7.5 minutes. I put about 8 with a question mark because I knew it was somewhere around there. Sometimes I wonder if you play BLU as much as you say you do. Or maybe you just don't play it properly/gimped. You say I have a pattern of over exaggerating. where? that's right, I don't. I also question the things you say because you lumped a BLU in the PLD party. And you seem to think PLD needs haste. All events that a PLD is brought to is because there are RNGs. Decoy Shot says hi. Any other fights you don't bring PLDs because it is a waste. Sure, giving the PLD haste will benefit, but it's not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Maybe you play with a group of people in a non-standard way where you put BLUs in with PLDs, more power to you. The rest of us don't.

The reason I say those things about BLU is I've seen 2 BLUs in delve keep an NM terrorized for almost the entire duration of its life. I've seen a BLU be able to heavy gravity a ton of mobs and kite them in pinch situations or just spam that spell and kill them all at once. I've seen BLU erasega and fully heal the party as if it was a WHM. I've seen BLU with like 3000 defense (though I think he might have had a minne or two), my PLD doesn't come even close to that. I've seen mythic BLU with unlimited MP. I've seen BLU outparsing MNKs. The list goes on.

You state RDM is seen as a support job. This is your own bias. RDM is a jack-of-all trades; whether it be DD, support, tank, healer... I've done them all.

As to your comment regarding how I fared against that MNK, keep in mind that I am not anywhere near the average RDM. I have put massive amounts of time and effort into it and have pretty much the best gear in all aspects. You also need to keep in mind that the SAMs were doing over double the damage of the MNK. Now SAMs are waaaaaay OP.

1.) Diffusion Flutter - 7:14, a big issue is that Blu cannot reapply to anyone other than themself if a slow or dispel happens, Rdms Haste2 lasts an extremely long time as well, pretty sure it's over 4:30 minutes on other people with cape augment and aby+2 gear and composure, and can reapply it, and it's like 13+ minutes on self.

2.) While I agree, no idea why you'd put a Blu in the Pld party, hasting Pld can be extremely nice, depending on what you're doing, primarily for Flash and Reprisal timers, but admittedly it's non-crucial.

3.) I've seen one Rdm keep many a NM stunned for the entire duration of it's life, even without chainspell at times, the number of relevant mobs that Blu can keep locked down is FAR more limited.

4.) Rdm can "Magic Cleave" anything Blu can, just as easily, probably moreso because of elemental nuke diversity, and could also Gravity-ga as well, though there's not many times that's really called for, for Rdm or Blu.

5.) Erasega is a fair point, but there are plenty of things Rdm has going for it that Blu doesn't as well. Phalanx (light years better than Blu's phalanx replacement in 99% of situations where you'd use it) Being able to keep up Haste2 on others, Flurry 2, Refresh 2 (fair point on Blu Mythic, thing is ridiculous, but very few people actually have one) AoE Nuke diversity as opposed to only having Subduction for a good Cleave option, wind onry annoys me more often than you might think. Terror works on VERY FEW mobs, Stun works on most, and with 12s recast (8s with march2), you get a lot of invites as a stunner.

6.) Pretty sure 3000 Defense isn't remotely maintainable, perhaps with Harden Shell up, I know on Pld/Blu I maintain 2400~ish DEF when supertanking the AA, this is with Double Minne (one march for Reprisal recast), Cocoon, Food, and capped PDT/Shadow Mantle not to mention PDT obviously generally being generally less important than PDT to cap, 3000 was probably making some tradeoffs, and I'm absolutely certain if Pld got an AoE'd Harden Shell, they'll get higher Defense than Blu anyday, due to gear availability.

7.) I've seen X job outparse Y job a million times, we're talking about generalizations, you don't usually see Blus outparse Mnks, possible, but in most situations, with similar gear and skill and randomization, the Mnk will win, but anyone can win situationally.

8.) I've done every role on multiple jobs, including both Rdm and Blu, when we call Rdm a support, we're saying that's the way the community generally views them, hardly a personal bias.

It boils down to the fact that if Blu's were so "OP" why are they generally far less desirable than Rdm? I can't stress that enough. You can certainly bring them to events, but they're rarely the most popular or the optimal choice. Rdm is used far more frequently, and that speaks volumes as to their overall ability.

That said, I'm not lamenting Blu's place in the world much, I consider them (as viewed by the community) the fourth most desired (able to join events) job that takes up a "DD slot", after Sam, Mnk, and Rng (though admittedly Rng only for some events).

Rdm takes a different slot than Blu would, and there are less people competing for the "support slot"s generally than the "DD slot", that alone makes them generally more desirable. Though in terms of overall "support role" desirability, they're generally behind Brd and Whm, but after that Rdm/Cor/Geo/Sch desirability varies wildly from event to event.

--All this said, I'm not opposed to Rdm getting buffed, especially in the melee department, it's sad that even soloing, they're generally better off spamming T1 nukes than actually meleeing, and meleeing is supposed to be one of their abilities. I'm just opposed to calling Blu "OP", when there are far worthier targets to receive that title (Sam, Brd, Mnk), and even them, I'd generally rather see other jobs buffed than them nerfed.

Edit: As to Pld, Had 2700 Defense at the start of the fight with 2hr Bard songs just now and 2 Minne I think, but, after Brd 2hr wore I think I was pretty much 2250 for the rest of the fight, also songs fluctuated some.

[Zekander]

I really don't want to get into this debate, but I have to point out that the only aoe spell RDM gets natively is Diaga... Meaning that in order to "Magic Cleave" we are forced to either use /SCH Manifestation, once every two minutes, or /BLM in which case the highest aoe spell we have access to is Aeroga II. And if you are saying that BLU's aoe nukes are only the strength of a tier II spell, then that really ought to be addressed, but I don't believe that is the case.

I really don't want to compare RDM to BLU, BLU is supposed to be a DD job, RDM is not. All I want is for it to be acceptable and possibly even helpful for RDM to melee in most circumstances, as you yourself said, meleeing is supposed to be one of their abilities. If RDM could melee for a reason other then purely for damage that would be fantastic, if for example our En-spells also inflicted a potent debuff. But that would probably require some drastic changes which SE is unlikely to do.

[Dale]

I really don't want to get into this debate, but I have to point out that the only aoe spell RDM gets natively is Diaga... Meaning that in order to "Magic Cleave" we are forced to either use /SCH Manifestation, once every two minutes, or /BLM in which case the highest aoe spell we have access to is Aeroga II. And if you are saying that BLU's aoe nukes are only the strength of a tier II spell, then that really ought to be addressed, but I don't believe that is the case.

I really don't want to compare RDM to BLU, BLU is supposed to be a DD job, RDM is not. All I want is for it to be acceptable and possibly even helpful for RDM to melee in most circumstances, as you yourself said, meleeing is supposed to be one of their abilities. If RDM could melee for a reason other then purely for damage that would be fantastic, if for example our En-spells also inflicted a potent debuff. But that would probably require some drastic changes which SE is unlikely to do.

I don't think manifestation works with our nukes either. So our situation is pretty dire when it comes to AoE damage. That's not one of our strengths and I would say Blue Mage definitely has us beat there.

[Selindrile]

Manifestation doesn't work with nukes, I was referring to /Blm for cleaving, though /Sch gives access to Breakga/Sleep2Ga/Gravija/Phalanxga which is of situational use, but not for cleaving.

For cleaving, my Thundaga 1 does about 1k to the mobs in marjami with rather mediocre Hagondes+1 augments (52Macc, 46matk) my subductions do about 1500 with mostly the same gear, but only because of the non-multitarget reduction) higher tier nukes may do more on Rdm but they wouldn't be as MP efficient.

In total for me, this makes Blue Mage better for cleaving in situations when you have access to trust (and thus Phalanx2), but for solo cleaving Dynamis for example, I go Rdm over Blu because I can pull bigger pulls with Phalanx over my Blu, I also nuke with Stonega in Dynamis for about 850ish iirc, which is plenty enough and more MP efficient than Thundaga.

If I do get a Rdm friend to go with me and Phalanx2 my Blu, Magic Hammer is pretty ridiculous for recovering MP on trash mobs that have MP such as dyna, but alone? Barrier Tusk doesn't remotely replace Phalanx, and usually isn't worth setting, especially against trash mobs whereas phalanx is a huge benefit on them.

In Skirmish Rdm/Blm is generally preferable to Blu generally because they can also Haste2/Dia3 and still nuke when the situation calls for it (Umbrils, Slimes)

[Zekander]

So basically the only reason RDM can magic cleave is because it gets a lot of MAB gear and because SE superbuffed the low tier nukes. Just a year ago RDM would not be able to do that much aoe damage by any means. Yeah, yeah, get with the times, but my point is that aoe is not supposed to be a strength of the RDM job (if it was we would have gotten aoe enfeebles a long long time ago). Whereas Subduction is only one of many BLU aoe spells, and I doubt it's the most damaging.

And that's all ignoring the fact that RDM and BLU really shouldn't be compared to one another. It's the obvious parallels I know, but the two jobs are supposed to fill different roles.

[Selindrile]

Responding to your post:


So basically the only reason RDM can magic cleave is because it gets a lot of MAB gear and because SE superbuffed the low tier nukes. Just a year ago RDM would not be able to do that much aoe damage by any means. Yeah, yeah, get with the times, but my point is that aoe is not supposed to be a strength of the RDM job (if it was we would have gotten aoe enfeebles a long long time ago). Whereas Subduction is only one of many of BLU's aoe spells, and I doubt it's the most damaging.

Yes, same is true of Blm, Sch/Blm, Geo/Blm and TBH, with the right support you can probably cleave on silly stuff like Brd and Whm etc, but that wouldn't be particularly efficient. But frankly the main reason Rdm is one of the better jobs for cleaving is because of Phalanx. Blu's mostly not that great at cleaving without it either, wouldn't have been possible for them without Rdm support or Trust, which is a game changer.

Blu's AoE spells traditionally have always been terrible, notable exceptions being Charged Whisker and Subduction, anything else is not nearly as efficient taking MP/Damage/Casting time into account (Embalming Earth/Tempestous Upheaval and Rending Deluge h ave all come about in this last year, and they're not bad, but not superior to Subduction).

And as far as what a job was "meant" to do, Ninja wasn't meant to be a tank, until it was, jobs roles are determined both by the designers and the players. I think both Blu and Rdm would be considered decent cleavers in present day. Rdm better when you don't have an outside source of Phalanx such as trust, Blu better when you do (except on mobs that don't take damage from wind).

As to them being incomparable, there's a grain of truth to that mainly because they're not competing for the same slot in party composition, usually. But I see no problem with comparing their overall merits and overlapping roles when they do occur.

[Metaking]

i cant complete agree with blus aoes(post abysea mostly tho) being bad, thermal pulse, water bomb(actually this one is seriously mean with magic dmg lowish cost as well to bad its recast is so bad), acrid stream( cone so might not count >.>) heck even lowely blood weapon was good 25 mana full hp mid cleave. Dont hate on Embalming, pretty potent slow on it, nice if you need to cast dream flower mid cleave. Now on the blu vrs rdm on cleaveing blu does higher dmg in an amount of time, but rdm can get an outrageous amount more mobs that blu could ever dream of, and do it safely, not to mention on rdm its easier to taller your nuke dmg to say 550-600 range for points.

@zekander yea whisker is still waaay stronger than subduction i mean were talking about 9k whiskers vrs 2-3k subduction, but the time it takes for 1 whisker you could have done 2-4 subduction (depending on fast cast) and for a fraction of the mana cost

[Dale]

i cant complete agree with blus aoes(post abysea mostly tho) being bad, thermal pulse, water bomb(actually this one is seriously mean with magic dmg lowish cost as well to bad its recast is so bad), acrid stream( cone so might not count >.>) heck even lowely blood weapon was good 25 mana full hp mid cleave. Dont hate on Embalming, pretty potent slow on it, nice if you need to cast dream flower mid cleave. Now on the blu vrs rdm on cleaveing blu does higher dmg in an amount of time, but rdm can get an outrageous amount more mobs that blu could ever dream of, and do it safely, not to mention on rdm its easier to taller your nuke dmg to say 550-600 range for points.


My perspective toward Blue Mage is probably tainted due to my Abyssea days when I used to enviously watch them literally pull the entire area and zap them all dead with a single spell. And these weren't wimpy monsters either. I'm talking very/incredibly tough ones.

I should probably take into account that without atma and given the fact they buffed low-tier nukes (which I was unaware of) maybe the difference between a Blue Mage and a Red Mage isn't as great as it once was in terms of AoE damage. But it's really hard for me to imagine the Blue Mages I am used to seeing from the old days reduced the power of a Red Mage/Black Mage sporting a low tier aga spell. But maybe that's how it is now. I don't play BLU nor do I often play with BLU. So if you say that's the way it is, I'll believe it.

[Metaking]

well in abysea all the mobs were in a nice small area which made gathering them up while takeing a small amount of dmg easy and quick before they could kill you, but its not like rdm which can pull all of kufatl tunnel and, i actually did this once was kinda cool. 2-3 nukes finished up the do 500 dmg objective easily with the numbers of mobs were talking about.

[Selindrile]

I've seen Blu, Rdm, Pld, and to a lesser extent Mnk and Nin all cleave pretty well in Marjami which is impressive enough really. Have never seen a War do it but I suspect they'd be plenty good with retaliation as well much like the old aby days.

[Zekander]

I have no idea how NIN cleaves, but I know from personal experience that Spinning Attack (MNK) and Circle Blade (PLD, RDM, BLU) do approximately the same amount of damage, ~1.2k + multi attacks (adding about 1k per hit). WAR has Fell Cleave, I don't know what kind of numbers it puts out but I would imagine it is significant since that WS alone spawned it's own form of aby exp party.

For reference, I use Tinhaspa on MNK and DW Claidheamh Soluis and Buramenk'ah on RDM.

[Selindrile]

Nin cleaves with Aeolian Edge, saw a JP out there the other night doing alright at it while I was cleaving on Pld (I rotate Blu/Pld/Rdm for job points and depending on my mood/what Job I'm on), with the right setup can hit 1300 damage or so, not OMGreat but not terrible.

[Dale]

well in abysea all the mobs were in a nice small area which made gathering them up while takeing a small amount of dmg easy and quick before they could kill you, but its not like rdm which can pull all of kufatl tunnel and, i actually did this once was kinda cool. 2-3 nukes finished up the do 500 dmg objective easily with the numbers of mobs were talking about.

Oh you are talking in terms of doing the RoE quests. I was talking more in terms of raw damage from AoE attacks.

I imagine phalanx does give Red Mage a good advantage when it comes to fighting hoards of weaker monsters since you can nullify most of their damage.

[Selindrile]

1.) I do that for sparks, stripping off enough MAB/Mdmg gear to hit around 500 each nuke on whatever I'm on and then spamming if for objectives, is efficient.

2.) AoE damage output is a factor for how efficient your job is at cleaving, but not the only one. Blu/Blm/Rdm are all quite good at it, and reasonably close, is my point, so it's silly arguing that one has a big advantage over another, some are better in some locations, but all are close enough in Exp(orwhatever)/Hour overall that it's kinda a wash.