[dev1235] Job Adjustments basically making THF worse?

[Bebekeke]

Of course, I'm not referring to the fact that THF got A+ dagger skill.

No, I'm referring to the plethora of buffs that DNC is receiving. Boosts to DA and Crit damage based on CHR... sounds much like how SA and TA work, but with no directional requirements?

And they are also boosted up to A+ dagger skill... something that they already have acc bonus traits to counter their lack of skill.

And they can lower mob's def or eva by much more, and much faster now than they could 2 months ago. We still just have feint on a 2 min timer that becomes weaker every tick.

We might as well just /toss all our gear that doesn't have TH on it, as we're only ever going to get an invite on THF now if TH is the sole purpose of us being there.

[Catmato]

If someone is forced to choose between bringing a THF or a DNC, the amount of damage they deal isn't going to be the deciding factor.

[Ulth]

THF should be more than just a handicap to get better drops.

[Bebekeke]

If someone is forced to choose between bringing a THF or a DNC, the amount of damage they deal isn't going to be the deciding factor.

They both provide light DD and varying support. If DNC now provides better DD and better support, THF is always going to lose.

Even for soloing Dynamis, THF/DNC or DNC w/o SJ are generally the top choices. Now you vastly increase your ability to get a white proc on DNC, while dealing more damage as well, so getting through the mobs faster.

[Byrth]

Dancer buffs are not THF nerfs any more than WAR buffs are THF nerfs. THF doesn't compete with either of the jobs for a party slot.

Plus, these buffs for DNC will likely not even be useful. 20 Atk and 16 Acc is likely going to be the main thing DNC gains from this update.



THF should be more than just a handicap to get better drops.

SE seems to disagree with you, but your premise that THF needs to be buffed to be damage-competitive is a bit misguided. It's one of the best 1H DDs right now against a lot of content purely based on SA/TA. I am almost entirely sure that my THF could outparse my DNC if they were in the same party. My DNC brings Haste Samba and Steps to the table, but THF brings TH. At least THF gets to focus on DDing instead of spending half its time locked up in JA delay limbo.

[Rhonda]

My first thought when I saw that THF was getting A+ Dagger alone next to the plethora of DNC adjustments was that SE didn't want a sh*tstorm like when they gave DNC Dual Wield and didn't give anything to THF. It sucks to see THF get ignored here but this update was about DNC, not THF.

[Ulth]

Dancer buffs are not THF nerfs any more than WAR buffs are THF nerfs. THF doesn't compete with either of the jobs for a party slot.

Plus, these buffs for DNC will likely not even be useful. 20 Atk and 16 Acc is likely going to be the main thing DNC gains from this update.




SE seems to disagree with you, but your premise that THF needs to be buffed to be damage-competitive is a bit misguided. It's one of the best 1H DDs right now against a lot of content purely based on SA/TA. I am almost entirely sure that my THF could outparse my DNC if they were in the same party. My DNC brings Haste Samba and Steps to the table, but THF brings TH. At least THF gets to focus on DDing instead of spending half its time locked up in JA delay limbo.
You might need to read the update again if you think 20 attack and 16 acc is the best thing DNC is getting. Since you play THF I'm sure you understand how important SA/TA is to damage. You must have missed how the flourish III categories are getting a damage boost based on CHA. Most likely how SA/TA gets one based on DEX/AGI.

And what all jobs are one handed DD? NIN, BLU, DNC? All the jobs that got an update except for THF. All these jobs have been getting real buffs except for THF. You know what THF got? Reduced Mug timer, and Seven dagger skill.

I was fine. I figured I just had to wait and eventually a real update for THF would come, but jobs that already got an update are still getting updates. It now feels like instead of THF being last on the list for an update to THF just not getting anything.

[Byrth]

You need to reevaluate how you think THF works if you think SA and TA are good because of their DEX and AGI mods (both of which are more convenient to gear for than CHR). They are good because they force crits (which elevates pDIF), and THF's primary problem is low cRatio (and thus low pDIF). So THF can do excellent WS damage twice every 50 seconds. With a 10 second 0-100 TP cycle time, this means that ~20% of your WSs can have forced crits, which is a huge bonus. Also, thanks to the recent dagger fTP changes, holding a little TP and waiting for SA or TA to come up isn't such a bad deal anymore.

For a 200TP Rudra's Storm (225 with Moonshade):
6.3125*((.8*260) + 115 [Ipetam] + 14 [fSTR]) = 2127 main hand base damage
260*1.3 [SA DEX bonus assuming full JPs and AF3+2 hands] = 338 SA base damage
1.7*((.8*260) + 108 [Izhiikoh] + 14 [fSTR]) = 561 additional swings base damage
So the DEX boost from SA increases main hand damage by 16% (and WS damage by less than that)

The forced crit is a >30% increase in damage even with capped Ratio, and in more common situations for THF (Ratio near 1) it is a ~100% increase in damage for the main hand and SA base damage. Factor in Critical Attack Bonus traits/gear, and THF is probably gaining closer to +120% damage from this under common conditions. So the effect of forcing a crit ultimately trounces the extra main hand base damage. Anyone who remembers pre-Assassin TA should not be surprised at all by this conclusion.

Also, before you insist that you have a Ratio over 1, keep in mind that Tojil is estimated to have 1900 defense and I'm guessing he's the low end of current content. It would not surprise me at all to learn Tenzen has something like 3000 Defense on VD. Unless you have a GEO, a smart COR, and a DRG, you're not going to get much above 1.



So yeah, maybe I was exaggerating a little when I said that the skill was the best thing DNC is getting this update. We get a little more playstyle flexibility in situations where we are using Steps. Also, Presto should always be up when moving between fodder mobs now so there will essentially be no reason to ever use an un-Presto'd Step until the boss. Until we test the CHR mod on Flourishes III I hesitate to draw conclusions about whether the category will be useful. I'd like to know:
1) Is it a base damage boost (like SA) or a multiplier (like Jump)?
2) Does it apply to all hits of the WS, or only the first swing? Does it apply to the DA and TA of Striking and Ternary Flourish?
3) When will SE upgrade Empyrean armor? - AF3+2 hat is still our best option for Climactic->Rudra's. AF3+2 body could be useful for Striking Flourish if they'd upgrade it. iLevel stat vomit on those pieces would help out the JAs.

I would not go and assume that the faster step rate is automatically going to make us personally better DDs, though. Or that extra CHR damage on Climactic Flourish is somehow going to make it a job-changing JA. Even if they make it a 100% mod like SA or TA, we would just end up with a 10-15% main-hand damage boost like pre-Assassin TA. It's welcomed, sure, but it's not going to break the job. If Striking Flourish ends up being usable, then we'll have to revisit this, but Climactic will still have a 90 second recast post-update and it is currently our best option by a long shot.

[Ulth]

Well 16% is nothing to scoff at. I already know that SA/TA are better separate than together. Also you forgot the level correction factor (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/WSC) for WSC. That actually puts it above 17% increase in main hand damage. On another note WSC affects extra attacks?

[Byrth]

SE removed the level correction factor for WSC in the WS update back in June. WSC does affect additional attacks and always has.

I updated the bgwiki page to reflect this.

[Ulth]

All of a sudden I don't feel like making a Vajra ever.

[Atomic_Skull]

The fact is nobody cares about THF but THF. I mentioned this in general discussion and the response was basically "THF is for farming go play another job if you don't like it lol"

If DNC gets A+ dagger skill with Accuracy bonus I-III then it would be fair to give THF A+ dagger skill with Attack Bonus I-III.

[Byrth]

All of a sudden I don't feel like making a Vajra ever.

It's actually unclear whether Vajra's bonus works the same as the other SA bonuses. When the test server still existed, I tried to test it. It came out to either +30% for the entire first hit or something like +80% DEX modifier.
http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Talk:Vajra_%28Level_99%29

I assumed it modifies the entire first term, which still makes it an awesome weapon. If I was going to make another mythic, I'd have a hard time not choosing Vajra.

[VoiceMemo]

While I agree some of the stats seem to make DNC > THF, to play devil's advocate.

THF has Evasion Bonus VI, while dancers highest is only Evasion bonus IV. (2 levels higher)
Critical Attack Bonus IV, while dancers only Critical Attack Bonus III. (1 level higher)

So would DNC get all these if we got a 5% boost to dual weild(Dual wield 4 vs 3)(1 level less).

I think these stats are fine and should remain top tier thf.

[Ulth]

It's actually unclear whether Vajra's bonus works the same as the other SA bonuses. When the test server still existed, I tried to test it. It came out to either +30% for the entire first hit or something like +80% DEX modifier.
http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Talk:Vajra_%28Level_99%29

I assumed it modifies the entire first term, which still makes it an awesome weapon. If I was going to make another mythic, I'd have a hard time not choosing Vajra.

If that is the case then it would be good. If not, it might look good on my mannequin.


While I agree some of the stats seem to make DNC > THF, to play devil's advocate.

THF has Evasion Bonus VI, while dancers highest is only Evasion bonus IV. (2 levels higher)
Critical Attack Bonus IV, while dancers only Critical Attack Bonus III. (1 level higher)

So would DNC get all these if we got a 5% boost to dual weild(Dual wield 4 vs 3)(1 level less).

I think these stats are fine and should remain top tier thf.

You only compared the job traits the two have in common. On top of having only 3% less critical damage DNC gets 23% skill chain bonus, +35 accuracy, Conserve TP, and Tactical Parry IV. THF's only other combat based trait is triple attack II which gives +6%. Which is a little lack luster when DNC can get +13% from equipment. Maybe THF will get lucky when Empyrean gets reforged and it will have tons of triple attack rate.

Although while I wish THF would get invited for it's damage output. That would never happen. Like the original poster stated THF is pretty much just for TH. At least DNC gets to come as a support role. THF once you put TH on the mob they no longer care and will let you die. Last for heals, last for haste, and last for status cures if you get any at all. I almost wish for more solo type abilities and traits since it feels like I'm alone even in a party. Only time it's not like that is when I'm with my linkshell.

[VoiceMemo]

If that is the case then it would be good. If not, it might look good on my mannequin.



You only compared the job traits the two have in common. On top of having only 3% less critical damage DNC gets 23% skill chain bonus, +35 accuracy, Conserve TP, and Tactical Parry IV. THF's only other combat based trait is triple attack II which gives +6%. Which is a little lack luster when DNC can get +13% from equipment. Maybe THF will get lucky when Empyrean gets reforged and it will have tons of triple attack rate.

Although while I wish THF would get invited for it's damage output. That would never happen. Like the original poster stated THF is pretty much just for TH. At least DNC gets to come as a support role. THF once you put TH on the mob they no longer care and will let you die. Last for heals, last for haste, and last for status cures if you get any at all. I almost wish for more solo type abilities and traits since it feels like I'm alone even in a party. Only time it's not like that is when I'm with my linkshell.

Wasn't that the point of this thread, so many others pointing out that DNC got higher lvls for job traits than THF. That they have more accuracy traits and attack boost traits.

IF you want to talk including gear then yes there is alot more differences. My point was trait wise if THF gets DNC traits that it lack, then the converse is that DNC should get THF traits that it lacks.

[Byrth]

As an update, Flourishes III is more useful than it used to be, but it will not be a real asset until SE releases upgraded empyrean armor. The category is mostly useful now because DNC makes so many FMs that we have no other way to spend them.