[Dev1235] Job Adjustments [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Alhanelem

09-30-2014, 05:41 PM

OK so my thoughts on this stuff.

The following jobs will undergo adjustments.

Warrior

The effects of the job ability Berserk will increase in stages as the player rises in level. Physical attack will increase by 1% per stage at levels 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90, and will reach a maximum of 30% when combined with the original effects.
The effects of the job ability Defender will increase in stages as the player rises in level. Physical defense will increase by 1% per stage at levels 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90, and will reach a maximum of 30% when combined with the original effects.

Okay, that's pretty nice. Also nice for the 90% of monsters being WAR/WAR in Monstrosity.

Thief

Dagger skill will be raised from A to A+.

No complaints there! Don't know how much that helps but it's certainly a welcome change.

Beastmaster

Axe skill will be raised from A to A+.
Familiars summoned using the Call Beast ability will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.

Good and necessary. Sounds like they went back on their original plan of having pet accuracy compensated only by Job Points?

Ninja

A new job trait, Daken, will be added.
When equipped with a shuriken, the ninja will occasionally throw it upon autoattacking.
This trait will be learned at level 25 and will increase in stages at level 40, 55, 70, and 95.
* Shuriken thrown using Daken will not be consumed.
Sange will undergo the following adjustments.
Sange (Recast time: 3 min., effect duration: 60 sec.)
Daken will always activate but consume shuriken. Increase ranged accuracy by 25.
Katana skill will be raised from A to A+.

Seems like a good day to be a Ninja. All this looks good. A flat out damage buff for NIN.

Dragoon

Wyverns will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.

Well lame that its the only change, but see Beastmaster comments.

Summoner

A new spell will be added.

Atomos (Lv. 75, Recast time: 60 sec.)
Removes one magic effect from an enemy and grants it to friendly players within area of effect.
* Atomos has no additional blood pacts usable during Astral Flow.

This has to be the most insulting thing ever done to summoner in its entire history. I made a seperate thread about this in the summoner board, but succinctly, Wow, this is bad. This is supposed to compete with Alexander or even Odin for attention?

A new job ability, Apogee, will be added.
Apogee (Lv. 70, Recast time: 5 min., Effect duration: 60 sec.)
Decreases the recast time on the next blood pact, but causes it to consume more MP.

Anything that speeds the job up a bit is welcome, even if its only once every 5 minutes...

The job ability Avatar's Favor will be changed.

Penalties, including physical and magic attack, will be abolished.
The avatar's perpetuation cost will increase.

Avatars will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.

I will miss the reduced perp effect but it certainly seems nice. But when it says perp cost will increase, do they mean increase to the normal value instead of the reduction it had before? or increased over the normal perp cost without favor? If it's the latter, I'll never use it most likely. i suppose it's all right if the effect doesnt reset on use of a BP.

Blue Mage

The casting time of the following spells will be decreased.
Metallic Body / Warm-Up / Amplification / Zephyr Mantle / Triumphant Roar
The effect duration of the following spells will be increased.
Memento Mori / Reactor Cool / Saline Coat / Plasma Charge / Diamondhide / Magic Barrier / Barrier Tusk / Orcish Counterstance / Nature's Meditation / Zephyr Mantle / Triumphant Roar
The MP cost of Triumphant Roar will be decreased.
The efficacy of Regeneration will be increased.
Attribute adjustments will be added to the following spells.
Tempestuous Upheaval / Rending Deluge / Enbalming Earth / Foul Water / Retinal Glare / Subduction
Sword skill will be raised from A to A+.

I don't know anything about BLU but nothing in here seems in any way negative. It all sounds good.

Puppetmaster

Hand-to-hand skill will be raised from B+ to A+.
Automatons will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.

Hand to hand YAY. Accuracy, YAY. (See beastmaster above)

Dancer

The following job abilities will undergo adjustments.

The recast time for steps will be decreased from fifteen to five seconds.
The recast time for the job ability Presto will be decreased from thirty to fifteen seconds.
The job ability Climactic Flourish will receive a damage boost varying with charisma.
The job ability Striking Flourish will have its recast time decreased from 120 to thirty seconds and will receive a damage boost varying with charisma.
The job ability Ternary Flourish will have its recast time decreased from 120 to forty-five seconds and will receive a damage boost varying with charisma.

Dagger skill will be raised from B+ to A+.

All this sounds really nice.

Geomancer

A new job ability, Entrust, will be added.
Entrust (Lv. 75, Recast time: 10 min., Effect duration: 60sec.)
The next indicolure spell cast may target a party member.

Nice in theory, but recast is way too long. Should be 5 mins.

It's good that they're raising the combat skill for so many job's main weapons that don't have that skill at maximum. This whole thing looks good, except for the announcement of Atomos, which is so terrible it makes me want to cry, on top of me wondering how such a simple effect took SEVERAL YEARS to develop...

Komachii

09-30-2014, 05:46 PM

No BRD dagger skill upgrade :(

Kincard

09-30-2014, 06:19 PM

A boost from A to A+ on weapon skills is 7 levels in an age where we have +200 skill on our weapons. Whoop de doo. Not complaining, but it's not going to be saving anyone.

Seems like a good day to be a Ninja. All this looks good. A flat out damage buff for NIN.

Not really, if you had any idea how bad Ninja is right now you'd know it'd take a lot more than just some skill adjustments and what amounts to a pseudo double attack trait to fix it. Nevertheless I'll have fun playing around with it. Sange sounds like its useful now (given how fast Ninja swings though, I hope these new shuriken are easy to get because they'll be burned away like crazy). The trait itself will only be useful if the proc rate and the provided shuriken are powerful enough to outweigh the benefits of just wearing a Yetshila for boosted criticals. I also really hope they either work off of melee accuracy or they have some plan to boost NIN's ranged accuracy because otherwise it's useless.

Afania

09-30-2014, 08:53 PM

Where's the skill update for COR? If all future content are designed for acc A+ jobs, COR would be hard to DD on anything that resists leaden salute and deserve a spot in alliance. It's already kinda hard to DD in VD lv of content if the target resists leaden salute.

DarkBEWD

09-30-2014, 08:59 PM

Where's Feather Barrier at? Can I get an evasion version of Cocoon please?

Ramzi

09-30-2014, 09:35 PM

My thoughts. I like how they are making Zephyr mantle an option for BLU blinking, but with only 4 shadows and a 60 second recast, I doubt anyone will use it over Occultation which is 8-9 shadows and a 1:15 recast. Depends what is being fought I guess- gives us options anyhow.

LOVE that they are increasing duration on blu buffs as well. Natures Meditation only lasting a minute when you are swinging almost as fast as a NIN is a kick in the ball sack. Too much effort to keep it up- I'd be happy with a 2:30 duration, but 5 would be awesome.

To OP- re: Atomos, I can see it being useful on something like Tojil though- steal his shell effect for your whole PT. Or when delve bosses put up their Aura - if you can steal it, that would be a winner.

Increase in skill levels shows they are coming to their senses after so many years. Why BST, BLU, THF didn't have A+ already is a huge mystery, but glad it's being fixed. 7+ acc/att is 7+ acc/att. It all helps.

Oh and almost forgot, if the reduced timers on steps carry over to /DNC Dynamis just got a whole lot more profitable.

Kincard

09-30-2014, 09:45 PM

It sounds like Atomos is just a normal spell with a timer, yeah. I doubt it can steal SP effects if that's the case, so basically it's just an extra dispel every 60 seconds. The buff effect is meh because aside from the fact that you won't be able to choose what you're stealing, how often do you need to actually steal some beneficial effect anyway, if you're in a group you probably already have all the important buffs up, and if you're soloing you're not going to waste your time dismissing your pet and waiting for Atomos's slow ass to steal you a protect or whatever. Occasionally you might get a useful attack boost for your party or something but that's probably just a bonus.

VoiceMemo

09-30-2014, 10:34 PM

No BRD dagger skill upgrade :(

Sad here too about no dagger skill for BRD, but I'd take Singing, Wind, and String skill pushed to A+ from our C over a dagger skill if had the choice.

Redbeam

09-30-2014, 10:43 PM

Basically threw the other jobs in there as a cover up to have an excuse to make a second thread to complain about Atmos @.@

Finuve

09-30-2014, 11:30 PM

so climactic flourish is going to even more like sneak attack now, except CHR instead of DEX as the mod, and it still triggers through 5 hits!

Wondering how I can maximize damage without getting eaten by JA delay though

Sapphires

10-01-2014, 12:13 AM

I have really mixed feelings on fast step recast for non main dancer, that's just broken in the hands of thf main for dyna. Most camps barely support 1 person already.
This is pretty game changing and potentially bad for dynamis when you have crowding since monster respawn will not keep up with staggering from a 3x speed increase in step frequency.
This would be a great time to reconsider the dynamis stagger rate for weaponskills and magic procs if only to alleviate congestion for JA staggered dynamis monsters with these sort of step changes.

THF already get a free pass to D/VD battlefields because of TH and if they can get away with /dnc instead of /nin, they bring super fast step building to the table now even if it caps lower.

My bound to be unpopular opinion on the step recast changes is that these are kept to be dancer main only.

Maikeru_Sylph

10-01-2014, 12:49 AM

I'm thankful for the PUP and SMN adjustments, but I think it's a little too late.

Afania

10-01-2014, 12:50 AM

COR deserves at least A- marksmanship/dagger or B+ marksmanship.

Suteru

10-01-2014, 12:59 AM

Where's the COR Marksmanship skill boost? :(

But yeah, that Atomos seems really bad. It took them 5 years to come up with this?

Olor

10-01-2014, 03:08 AM

I'm thankful for the PUP and SMN adjustments, but I think it's a little too late.

I feel the same about BST... especially the too little part. I wish I could be optimistic but I was already burned by the crappy pet food which was pretty much useless for real content. These guys will give BST pets 20 acc and call it a day. Hope I'm wrong, but without numbers (why didn't they say how much they will boost) I refuse to be optimistic at this point.

Anyway, still won't solve the rest of the problem with pets - unbufffed while everyone is super buffed, etc.

Also I dislike the perp cost on favour.... leveling smn right now and I really appreciated how favour made it more possible to use avatars... guess I better cap before the update cause there is not enough refresh/perp down gear for smns who are leveling...

Jerbob

10-01-2014, 04:30 AM

...you're not going to waste your time dismissing your pet and waiting for Atomos's slow ass to steal you a protect or whatever.
If we look at Atomos in full optimism mode (which will no doubt be dashed to pieces on the patch day), it's possible that we don't even have to dismiss our current avatar to use it. All the other summoning magic spells explicitly state "Summons X to fight by your side", whereas Atomos doesn't. If we're going with the hypothesis that it's a targetted spell like Odin (though hopefully without the Astral Flow requirement), we may end up with a normal non-pet-calling spell with a Summoning Magic graphical effect of "summoning" and "dismissing" Atomos. That would be nice.

Ulth

10-01-2014, 04:44 AM

COR deserves at least A- marksmanship/dagger or B+ marksmanship.

Right? all the other jobs with B+ got bumped up to A+. Also would it kill them to give THF and COR a decent marksmanship skill? Even if it was raised to A+ RNG would still do better even with just an A.

I have really mixed feelings on fast step recast for non main dancer, that's just broken in the hands of thf main for dyna. Most camps barely support 1 person already.
This is pretty game changing and potentially bad for dynamis when you have crowding since monster respawn will not keep up with staggering from a 3x speed increase in step frequency.
This would be a great time to reconsider the dynamis stagger rate for weaponskills and magic procs if only to alleviate congestion for JA staggered dynamis monsters with these sort of step changes.

THF already get a free pass to D/VD battlefields because of TH and if they can get away with /dnc instead of /nin, they bring super fast step building to the table now even if it caps lower.

My bound to be unpopular opinion on the step recast changes is that these are kept to be dancer main only. First the /DNC step recast isn't going to change the rate of which THFs kill in Dynamis. All it will do is allow them to proc all the mobs they kill. I personally don't stop attacking or turn my back just to proc. You get more money just killing it and trying to proc the next one. Second Dynamis doesn't matter for end game balance who the hell even cares.

As for D/VD battlefields, believe it or not I would like to do more than just be there as a lucky charm, something the devs can't seem to get through their skulls. Also in the case you don't need shadows for a battlefield no THF should be /DNC. THF/DNC is a farming job set up. If you don't need to /NIN to stay alive pick a subjob that will actually increase damage output.

As for my rant, why do they keep giving THF's job abilities to other jobs? RNGs get TH, SCH get enmity control, and now DNC gets Sneak Attack. Only it's better than Sneak Attack since they don't have to worry about the mob turning or party members with their backs to the wall. All it costs them is 150tp.

They could at least give use something new, but no. All we get is +7 combat skill. Big freaking whoop.

Finuve

10-01-2014, 04:52 AM

Right? all the other jobs with B+ got bumped up to A+. Also would it kill them to give THF and COR a decent marksmanship skill? Even if it was raised to A+ RNG would still do better even with just an A.

First the /DNC step recast isn't going to change the rate of which THFs kill in Dynamis. All it will do is allow them to proc all the mobs they kill. I personally don't stop attacking or turn my back just to proc. You get more money just killing it and trying to proc the next one. Second Dynamis doesn't matter for end game balance who the hell even cares.

As for D/VD battlefields, believe it or not I would like to do more than just be there as a lucky charm, something the devs can't seem to get through their skulls. Also in the case you don't need shadows for a battlefield no THF should be /DNC. THF/DNC is a farming job set up. If you don't need to /NIN to stay alive pick a subjob that will actually increase damage output.

As for my rant, why do they keep giving THF's job abilities to other jobs? RNGs get TH, SCH get enmity control, and now DNC gets Sneak Attack. Only it's better than Sneak Attack since they don't have to worry about the mob turning or party members with their backs to the wall. All it costs them is 150tp.

They could at least give use something new, but no. All we get is +7 combat skill. Big freaking whoop.id shed a tear for THFs, but SAMs got Konzen-Ittai, at least climactic flourish doesnt just straight up ape sneak attack

Ulth

10-01-2014, 05:46 AM

id shed a tear for THFs, but SAMs got Konzen-Ittai, at least climactic flourish doesnt just straight up ape sneak attack

Right sometimes I forget how hard SAM has it. But seriously if climactic flourish gets a 1/1 base damage increase with CHA how is it not better than Sneak Attack? With five moves and the Charis Tiara +2 you get six attack rounds of sneak attacks with an added 20% damage. It would be a cinch to get 2 weaponskills off in that time.

Lyandra

10-01-2014, 05:46 AM

OK so my thoughts on this stuff.

A new spell will be added.
Atomos: Removes one magic effect from an enemy and grants it to friendly players within area of effect.

This has to be the most insulting thing ever done to summoner in its entire history.

As someone who has played SMN as long as I have, if not longer, you're not surprised with this? Fenrir Prime's Lunar Roar has close to 50 yalm range and removes all buffs, vs our own version's range of maybe 15 yalms and removes only 2 buffs. Not to mention comparing the Lv65 Prime avatars in the battles having native Double-Attack and their relative enspells naturally. I'm not disagreeing with your statement, but did you honestly expect our Atomos' ability to be the same as the Atomos version in the mission fight with Cait Sith...? :confused:

A new job ability will be added.
Apogee: Decreases the recast time on the next blood pact, but causes it to consume more MP.

Anything that speeds the job up a bit is welcome, even if its only once every 5 minutes...

When I first read this, I thought it reduced BP recasts for the full duration of 60 second buff, but based on the wording "next blood pact" perhaps not... I'll still hold out that maybe it will be useful.

The job ability Avatar's Favor will be changed.
*Penalties, including physical and magic attack, will be abolished.
*The avatar's perpetuation cost will increase.

I will miss the reduced perp effect but it certainly seems nice. But when it says perp cost will increase, do they mean increase to the normal value instead of the reduction it had before? or increased over the normal perp cost without favor? If it's the latter, I'll never use it most likely. i suppose it's all right if the effect doesnt reset on use of a BP.

Why wouldn't you use it? This alone makes Favor actually worth having. Yeah, the perp cost will increase while its active instead of lowering it, but we can finally provide a party-wide benefit and NOT weaken the damage output of our avatars. Maybe they'll increase the Favor caps and reduce the time needed to maximize buff values also. Think of it this way: if anything it will be like back in the 75 days, where at best you could only keep -3 to -6mp MP/tic loss with avatars out. Myself, I have idle gear that my avatars are free and I get +5/+6 mp/tic refresh with them out, so it probably won't affect me at all; and it beats sitting with the mages doing nothing while providing Fenrir's or Shiva's Favor. :p

Sapphires

10-01-2014, 06:56 AM

First the /DNC step recast isn't going to change the rate of which THFs kill in Dynamis. All it will do is allow them to proc all the mobs they kill. I personally don't stop attacking or turn my back just to proc. You get more money just killing it and trying to proc the next one. Second Dynamis doesn't matter for end game balance who the hell even cares.

I'm well acquainted with the merits of straight up killing and not turning or waiting on staggering.
Its very easy to be straight up obnoxious and kill an entire camp solo already without consideration for staggering to run off competition, so staggering is very much a factor on people's farming take. Not everyone mains thf and has high TH by default.

I'm raising my concern to the devs and want to know if they made thoughtful consideration of the impact of this change on zone congestion and farming of a currency that is a cornerstone of the game economy.

Glamdring

10-01-2014, 07:45 AM

ok, 1st relax and take a breath people. in the past it has sometimes taken more than 1 job adjustments post to get everything in an update, so there MAY -not will, may- be more to come.

now, as to updates, the pet accuracy buff is golden, unfortunately no damage, def or attack speed buffs so we'll still have issues but at least it's not pure "whiff" like it is now, and after all, they could multiply pet physical damage 10 times, if it doesn't connect it doesn't exist.

now, the boost to accuracy for our job's primary weapons... nice all told but it steals some of the uniqueness from some of the jobs. still, if uniqueness was keeping you from getting party invites then uniqueness can go F itself. As to the thread post about thf irrelevance now, I wasn't aware of thief getting any invites for any reason but TH before today so on behalf of all the dancers out there who might get a party invite now, stuff it! and yes, I play both dancer and thief. And by the way, I think TH will STILL get thief more invites than dancer even with the changes, people want drops more than anything.

the ninja changes. Lord knows they needed something, with all of endgame able to strip shadows in like 2 seconds max they needed another way to be relevant and a DD bump isn't a bad choice. I don't know if it's enough but we'll see. if nothing else it should make the job a bit more fun. and it gives smiths a reason to make shuriken again-ok, for the 1st time.

Blues, ease up! you have been buffed 2 updates in a row now, some jobs go 2 years between updates and then they aren't any good. Be thankful for what you got, it's more than 19 other jobs have gotten over the same span.

Summoner and Atmos... it's been what, 4 years since he was announced and this is it? wow, I am so underwhelmed right now I'm going to have someone check me for my coma scale score... only possible utility I see is if it works on megaboss killer abilities, like the venom shell on the uraganite NM in alluvion skirmishes, but that is not the pattern SE has followed in the past and I'd lay odds it isn't the case now.

the geomancer ability entrust, not sure how this works. it's POSSIBLE this could be used to get a 3rd buff out there. It's also superior to bard in 1 respect; my biggest problem playing bard is that even with the announcement in every one of my casting macros that I am casting a buff right now other players run out of range anyway. My attitude, fine, you didn't want the buff, damned if I'm going to chase you down to put it on you. But now Geo can indi-haste a melee so even if they try to run out of range another melee may force them to take their haste anyway. I can dig that. and if that means I can still cast another indi on myself then I can backline with the mages using indi refresh or whatnot and save a geo for something else. That is a HUGE win if it works that way.

Ulth

10-01-2014, 07:45 AM

I'm well acquainted with the merits of straight up killing and not turning or waiting on staggering.
Its very easy to be straight up obnoxious and kill an entire camp solo already without consideration for staggering to run off competition, so staggering is very much a factor on people's farming take. Not everyone mains thf and has high TH by default.

I'm raising my concern to the devs and want to know if they made thoughtful consideration of the impact of this change on zone congestion and farming of a currency that is a cornerstone of the game economy.

It's not going to change the congestion of the zone. It might change the best farming method making white proc on DNC more profitable than THF/DNC. But even at the current cool down job ability proc is heads and shoulders above ws and magic, so it's not like there will be suddenly more people going for job ability procs, since they are already the best option. Also sharing camps is not feasible. If I don't weapons skill I kill the last mob in a camp at about the same time the first one respawns. Check the zone in search before you go in to make sure there are enough camps to go around. If there is someone in the camp you want, don't go camp on top of them. Just ask when they will be done and move in once they run out of time. People camping on top of you when there are 2 other camps in the zone is what is really obnoxious.

I don't like the crowds in dynamis as much as the next person, but short of making it an instanced zone nothing is going to change that.

Catmato

10-01-2014, 07:50 AM

All this talk of COR and BRD combat skills... Where's my WHM A+ club skill? and native dual-wield prz

Selindrile

10-01-2014, 09:27 AM

Warrior

5% More attack for warrior main under berserk, better than nothing, but not exciting.

Thief

A+ for a job's main skill should've been done ages ago, and this will have a very minor effect.

Beastmaster

A+ for a job's main skill should've been done ages ago, and this will have a very minor effect. I doubt they'll go far enough on the pet changes, we'll see.

Ninja

Ratk and Racc in my tp set? Hah no thanks, even sange which seems like it could be very cool, will just make Nin better for farming trash content, and still all but useless on high end content.

Dragoon

Changes nothing whatsoever.

Summoner

This is likely overly optimistic but if Atomos is just a targetted spell you can cast with another Summon out and it can steal anything including SPs, this could be situationally good, if either of these things are untrue, highly dissapointing.
Apogee sounds extremely undwhelming, but yay new ja, I guess.
Avatar's favor may be a positive, depending on how much extra MP/tic the perpetuation cost is, if too much it will be annoying. And we'll see how the pet acc changes affect Smn.

Blue Mage

Casting times on those spells don't matter too much as they're not generally used.
Duration on Barrier Tusk, Orcish Counterstance, Nature's Meditation, Saline Coat, Memento More are potentially great, we'll have to see how long the duration becomes. The stoneskin spells duration was rarely an issue, the potency, casting time and cost on diamondhide is /shrug. Regeneration could be a small bonus depending on value.

Puppetmaster

Long overdue, doubt it's enough but we'll see.

Dancer

I like this list, however, it does seem to compound the JA/Attack delay problem, when are Dnc actually going to find time to TP? lol, and I'm fine with X/Dnc getting the lower timers too, but I do think they should revisit WS and Magic proc rates considering this to open up dyna camps, not that that's a huge deal.

Geomancer

Entrust is full of potential, if it allows another indi-bubble to be cast, letting you have 3 buffs for some of the time, this is quite powerful. If using entrust stops you from having your own indi-bubble, then they should lower the recast timer to the duration of your indi spells so you can position the other bubble wherever you want, having to keep it centered on you is frustrating, and powerful as a third bubble would be, I may just wish I could keep 2 bubbles wherever I want them instead.

Byrth

10-01-2014, 05:06 PM

The DNC changes further exacerbate the job's already-choppy playstyle. We need a JA delay reduction.

Afania

10-01-2014, 08:25 PM

The DNC changes further exacerbate the job's already-choppy playstyle. We need a JA delay reduction.

What do you expect? Potent def down that can be used with absolutely 0 penalty? That'd be totally broken/OP. May as well play the SAM or MNK if moar dmg is what you want.

[ but I do think they should revisit WS and Magic proc rates in lieu of this to open up dyna camps, not that that's a huge deal.

This is quite a huge deal IMO, that means relics can be made more easily, and that'd affect the game design direction.

It's either relic in the future would be even less relevant than it is now, or the game difficulty is based on everyone must own a relic. Both results are bad.

Malithar

10-01-2014, 09:03 PM

What do you expect? Potent def down that can be used with absolutely 0 penalty? That'd be totally broken/OP. May as well play the SAM or MNK if moar dmg is what you want.

Considering the amounts of -def Dia II/III (10%/15%, no penalty, unless you're going to say MP, then I'd say stfu), Angon (25%, 60% up keep JA, costs 500 gil or whatever for an Angon), and Geo-Frailty (41%, high MP cost, 1 of 2 bubbles able to be kept up) provide, I'd agree that using up to 10 (but as low as 7) steps to cap the defense reduction at...what was it, -23%, is a pretty extreme cost. Not to say it'd never be worth it, but it's still a lot of work compared to what other -def abilities provide, and while you do gain finishing moves, it's still costing you TP as well.

Edit: Frailty obviously with Idris, I don't keep track of non-Idris numbers anymore, so sub in whatever that is.

Byrth

10-01-2014, 09:37 PM

Glamdring

10-01-2014, 10:07 PM

Considering the amounts of -def Dia II/III (10%/15%, no penalty, unless you're going to say MP, then I'd say stfu), Angon (25%, 60% up keep JA, costs 500 gil or whatever for an Angon), and Geo-Frailty (41%, high MP cost, 1 of 2 bubbles able to be kept up) provide, I'd agree that using up to 10 (but as low as 7) steps to cap the defense reduction at...what was it, -23%, is a pretty extreme cost. Not to say it'd never be worth it, but it's still a lot of work compared to what other -def abilities provide, and while you do gain finishing moves, it's still costing you TP as well.

Edit: Frailty obviously with Idris, I don't keep track of non-Idris numbers anymore, so sub in whatever that is.

it opens a different possible job build for acceptable parties so it's not totally pointless, after all, parties may not be packing a rdm, drg and geo, or allows the geo to go with a different bubble buff/debuff, and I DO like options.

Finuve

10-01-2014, 10:09 PM

Malithar

10-01-2014, 10:26 PM

it opens a different possible job build for acceptable parties so it's not totally pointless, after all, parties may not be packing a rdm, drg and geo, or allows the geo to go with a different bubble buff/debuff, and I DO like options.

If it's to be a genuine option, then it needs to have a similar cost/potency, as Byrth outlined above. Otherwise, why take the clearly inferior option? I'd also argue it's far, far easier to find a good Rdm, Drg, or Geo than a good Dnc, and for the most part, those jobs will bring about a better party output than to bring Dnc so they can spend 30 seconds in JA delay lock per mob.

Mitruya

10-01-2014, 10:38 PM

Afania

10-02-2014, 12:14 AM

Yeah, Box Step is the most expensive form of defense reduction in the game by a long shot. What they should have done is double the potency of DNC steps (for DNC main at 99) and leave the maximum daze level at 5, and then not change the recast of steps. Then we only have to suffer as much JA delay as we used to, we get the same potency of debuff that we get now, and it's *still* effectively the most expensive form of defense reduction in the game.

To expand that list Malithar made:
* Dia II/III - 10/15% defense reduction, takes about 4 seconds to cast and recover from if you include magic delay and 30/45 MP. So it's 3 MP/defense down and 2.5% defense down/second. It is single target and has a near-instant activation time (<1 sec).
* Angon - 25% defense down, costs about 300 gil and 1-2 seconds JA delay (12.5% defense down/second). It is single target and has an instant activation time.
* Indi-Frailty - 37.5% defense down, 147MP, takes about 5 seconds to cast and recover from if you include magic delay. So it's about 4MP/defense down and 7.5% defense down/second. Also, it moves around with (after this update) whoever you cast it on and affects everything nearby. Instant activation time.
* Box Step - 23% defense down at level 10. Costs between 500 and 1000 TP to max out and takes between 15 and 20 seconds of forced JA delay to reach max potency (respectively). It is single target. So it's 22~43TP/Defense Down and 1.15% defense down/second. Not only that, but will take (even after this patch) at least 35 seconds to hit max potency (currently something like 1.5 minutes).

So no, Box step is not going to be overpowered if they scaled its potency up so it was 23% at level 5 daze and reduce the max daze level back to 5 (effectively 2.3% defense down/second). It would still be the least efficient Defense Down option, but the job would suck less to use.

Although I agree that it's probably better to double the step potency of DNC main and leave it at lv 5, I don't agree that JA delay should be removed nor step can be compare with dia 2/3, GEO spells/angon. It's not exactly fair to bash on steps as a debuff when you consider DNC can DD AND step every target if the player wants.

1)Dia 2/3 is only useable by mages or /mage, not a DD job subbing WAR. A job that can do dia 2/3 probably isn't going to put out same lv of output as a DNC/WAR.

2) Same thing applies to GEO.

3) Angon has a cool down, you can't apply angon on every target most of the time.

Even with JA delay DNC dmg+ step is still a net gain in dmg.

I don't agree with JA delay removal because the battle system already designed based on the fact that JA has a delay, if there are no delay then the battle system needs rework......or else inc MNK boost spam.

Finuve

10-02-2014, 12:38 AM

Although I agree that it's probably better to double the step potency of DNC main and leave it at lv 5, I don't agree that JA delay should be removed nor step can be compare with dia 2/3, GEO spells/angon. It's not exactly fair to bash on steps as a debuff when you consider DNC can DD AND step every target if the player wants.

1)Dia 2/3 is only useable by mages or /mage, not a DD job subbing WAR. A job that can do dia 2/3 probably isn't going to put out same lv of output as a DNC/WAR.

2) Same thing applies to GEO.

3) Angon has a cool down, you can't apply angon on every target most of the time.

Even with JA delay DNC dmg+ step is still a net gain in dmg.

I don't agree with JA delay removal because the battle system already designed based on the fact that JA has a delay, if there are no delay then the battle system needs rework......or else inc MNK boost spam.I wouldnt advocate removing it either, but they can reduce it for certain JAs, or even make it a JT for DNCs that reduces the delay associated with steps (.5s?)

Ulth

10-02-2014, 03:58 AM

its already really easy to get 2 WSs off with it, I self darkness all the time, the reason it doesnt ape sneak attack though is because of finishing moves

Because finishing moves will be so hard to get? They are slashing the timers on steps to a third of what they once were.

I wouldnt advocate removing it either, but they can reduce it for certain JAs, or even make it a JT for DNCs that reduces the delay associated with steps (.5s?)

They will never change it. It's too much work for them. I suspect that the way job ability delay works is after the job ability the game waits for the next tick before starting to count the delay on weapons again.

Glamdring

10-02-2014, 07:37 AM

If it's to be a genuine option, then it needs to have a similar cost/potency, as Byrth outlined above. Otherwise, why take the clearly inferior option? I'd also argue it's far, far easier to find a good Rdm, Drg, or Geo than a good Dnc, and for the most part, those jobs will bring about a better party output than to bring Dnc so they can spend 30 seconds in JA delay lock per mob.

because it's not a clearly inferior option. there ARE other damage sources than physical in the game, and I think SE is going to try to bring more magic content to the game, in addition to adding options to do older content with magic damage. I've even seen SC/MB creeping back into strategies. Yes, dnc can box step, he can also lower eva, or he can lower magic evasion. He can even lower magic evasion while you have other jobs lower def or whatever, opening more than 1 damage path-handy on mobs that switch resistances. I realize it's anathema to most but don't lock your mind around the idea that only Zerg counts, because if SE is successful in their efforts to bring other jobs back to the end-game mix it will be because Zerg isn't all that counts. And considering how much I like playing my mages that's a good thing.

Selindrile

10-02-2014, 07:49 AM

Dia 2/3 is only useable by mages or /mage, not a DD job subbing WAR. A job that can do dia 2/3 probably isn't going to put out same lv of output as a DNC/WAR.

Blu's had a comparable Def down for ages, it's only worth casting sometimes and it's hardly overpowered, and takes far less opportunity cost to use than steps, and Blu has better damage output than Dnc/War.

Kaeviathan

10-02-2014, 09:46 AM

Corsairs need a boost in skill as well to compensate for their high delay on roll recast and the constant dispels from new contents.

Atomic_Skull

10-02-2014, 10:24 AM

I'm back for less than a week and THF gets punched in the balls by SE again. That's one thing that certainly hasn't changed since I left two years ago.

How so do you ask? Well they give Dancer and THF A+ in dagger, but DNC also has Accuracy Bonus III and Dual Wield IV so DNC becomes much, much better with daggers than THF. In effect this is a THF nerf.

Byrth

10-02-2014, 10:56 AM

Atomic_Skull

10-02-2014, 02:38 PM

You really can't understand if you aren't a mainjob THF. It's not about invites or utility it's about THF loosing it's place as the master of daggers to another job. It's like if SE suddenly gave WAR an A+ in Scythe, no matter how it affected DRKs they would be very angry.

Pixela

10-02-2014, 06:55 PM

Thief has TH and many emnity control JA, they can also boost their dmg up with sa/ta. They also have access to some better/easier to get gear that dnc main does not.

Dancer is still mainly a utility and solo job to the vast majority of people that play it. If a dnc and a thief both apply to your group the chances are you're going to take the thief still.

A+ and an increase in steps isn't making the job destroy thieves place in the world, also the changes to steps make the job more annoying to play since you now have the delay after using all these JA to deal with. The decrease is stop timers will make dyna proc's easier but will really hurt the dps of the job (you can choose not to use steps as much but still they could of done this in a better way).

Afania

10-02-2014, 08:41 PM

Blu's had a comparable Def down for ages, it's only worth casting sometimes and it's hardly overpowered, and takes far less opportunity cost to use than steps, and Blu has better damage output than Dnc/War.

Unless there are other def down spell I'm not aware of, frightful roar is only 10% and Bilgestorm being 25%.

Dia 3 is 15% and both 2 and 3 can be enhanced to 20% with light shot. I can't find the info about max lv box step, but it's 13% at lv 5 so probably 23% at max lv?

Cost wise, Bilgestorm has 5 min recast due to JA recast, and you'd sacrifice other useful spell like harden shell for it, making it not all that useful.

Frightful roar isn't that potent compare with box/dia, it requires set point(which can be used for another DD trait, thus sacrificing DPS), requires cast time(sacrifice DPS), and it requires a good macc set to land on anything higher lv such as lv 130+ incursion.

Dia doesn't require macc gears to land, steps are incredibly accurate from my personal experience. On the other hand unless you have absolutely max macc gear or even buff, roar doesn't always land in higher lv incursion. I haven't done spreadsheet yet so I don't know the exact dps gap between a DNC and BLU. But unless the gap between BLU and DNC is huuuuge(which I doubt), a pt with DNC should have higher pt output than a pt with BLU when all steps reaches max lv. There's a huge difference between the debuff potency between BLU and DNC IMO.

A+ and an increase in steps isn't making the job destroy thieves place in the world, also the changes to steps make the job more annoying to play since you now have the delay after using all these JA to deal with. The decrease is stop timers will make dyna proc's easier but will really hurt the dps of the job (you can choose not to use steps as much but still they could of done this in a better way).

Except it's not, able to cap steps faster is DPS increase for the job itself, and every other DD job in the pt. It doesn't matter if it's annoying, it seems like a DPS gain for the job to me. If you find using JA annoying in FFXI, MNK or SAM is the job for you.

Finuve

10-02-2014, 10:18 PM

They also gave Ninjas, who were already better DDs than DNC or THF against a lot of content, kick-Katanas. Why don't you declare the death of your job for that reason? By the way, they buffed WAR as well (a better DD than DNC, THF, or NIN). Why doesn't that get you in the gut?

How goddamned dumb are people that they honestly think they're competing with the other melee jobs for DPS? There is no competition. If you want damage, you bring SAM. Reasons to bring other melee include:
1) You can't find a Tsurumaru (or better) SAM, so you bring a job that buffs the SAM indirectly in some way (DRG, DNC)
2) You can't find a Tsurumaru (or better) SAM, so you sacrifice the DPS and get a mythic heavy DD (WAR, DRK, DRG).
3) Pity (Q.Q)
4) TH (THF)

^ See? The only category DNC and THF compete in is the pity category.im pretty sure everyone realizes (except SE) that SAM is %@&ing stupid

DRK didnt get &*^& either, apparently SE was happy with their cast time reductions to absorb spells last patch which amounts to absolutely nothing

Ulth

10-03-2014, 03:01 AM

im pretty sure everyone realizes (except SE) that SAM is %@&ing stupid

DRK didnt get &*^& either, apparently SE was happy with their cast time reductions to absorb spells last patch which amounts to absolutely nothing

I was shocked when they gave HP up to pretty much everyone but DRK. If any job could have benefited from extra HP it would be DRK

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

10-03-2014, 06:49 AM

It's not about invites or utility it's about THF loosing it's place as the master of daggers to another job.

My PLD has the uncontested highest club skill in the game but I still can't use Hexa Strike.

And there's never really been a true master of daggers. You essentially start the game with the same weapon as a RDM, and share all weapon skills with that job all the way to level 90(!). The only weapon skill you don't share with both DNC and BRD(!) is your job-specific Mythic.

You don't get a Raging Rush, a Hexa Strike, or a Swift Blade all to yourself. Instead, you share everything with support classes, which is what THF was supposed to be to begin with.

Byrth

10-03-2014, 06:56 AM

Technically THF and DNC share exclusive access to Dancing Edge and Shark Bite.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

10-03-2014, 08:00 AM

Technically THF and DNC share exclusive access to Dancing Edge and Shark Bite.

You're right, my mistake. But I can still make the argument that those formerly unique skills are more about compatibility with SATA (they're the only strictly physical WS's on dagger before WSNM) rather than being significant in their own right.

And THF is still sharing Relic and Empyrean weapon skills with BRD.

OP's current 417 skill with dagger is no better than my 417 skill with club and staff. PLD "only" gets an A- in those weapons because it's not about the weapons themselves but who they're used against (skeletons). THF got an A- in dagger because it's not about the weapons themselves but where the THF is standing when using one.

Bebekeke

10-03-2014, 02:05 PM

Technically THF and DNC share exclusive access to Dancing Edge and Shark Bite.

IIRC, DNC had to fight tooth and nail to get DE and SB though. I'm sure it didn't originally have access to those WS?

Catmato

10-03-2014, 09:20 PM

IIRC, DNC had to fight tooth and nail to get DE and SB though. I'm sure it didn't originally have access to those WS?

DNC had them from the start.

evanwimbish

10-03-2014, 11:19 PM

I wonder what the new regen will be for blu!? (Please please please regen 3-5)

I would have liked to see them make some adjustments to barrier tusk to make it more like phalanx enhancing spell vs diamond hide being adjusted

Excited for the skill in sword because this will make physical blu magics more potent

Mixed feelings towards them not stating what exactly they will do to subduction or tempest upheval... I hope they don't plan on lowering the damage values :(

Soooooooo happy overall they are increasing blu enhancements !!

Smn is exciting too!!! No more penelty for avatars favor! Now ifrit has even more power with double attack pacts! However they commented months ago atomos would be a astral flow avatar.. Hopefully they changed their mind! (The new job ability that halfs the recast timer sure does make it sound like they did... Also since these are spells haste 2 and such should work nicely with it)

Can't wait to test all this new stuff out on oct 6th! 22:00-01:00. (Can we have some earlier version updates! School is in session for us east coasters and I do like to log on immediately after VU :D )

Kincard

10-04-2014, 02:29 AM

Except it's not, able to cap steps faster is DPS increase for the job itself, and every other DD job in the pt. It doesn't matter if it's annoying, it seems like a DPS gain for the job to me. If you find using JA annoying in FFXI, MNK or SAM is the job for you.

I really would like to think you're familiar enough with this game to know that spamming JAs every 5 seconds is not going to be helping DNC's output, DEF Down or not (and they need to continue using the steps every so often to keep the daze up). The idea that it would help a group is worth nothing too, because nobody is going to get a DNC to be doing DEF Down, they'll just get a GEO if they want that.

The thing about utility for the light armor jobs (NIN, THF, and DNC) is that I wouldn't have a problem with that meaning they have weaker damage output compared to heavy jobs if they could actually figure out what the heck they're doing with this utility. They need to:
-Make DNC's heals and debuffs better and make them better DPS
-Make NINs be able to tank something actually worth a damn, or just give up on trying to make them tanks because they're doing a really bad job at it
-Make THF at least the best DPS of these three because they have the least versatility out of them

I'm not sure about Byrth's claim that NIN is currently a better DPS than DNC, though. I mean, when both of them are all hasted up and just TP spamming I imagine katanas outpace daggers, but currently the place these jobs shine is in trash farmed solo content or whatever, and I'm guessing DNC can do better damage than NIN by self-skillchaining. Not saying DNC couldn't use a whole lot of adjustments because honestly, all three of these jobs need them still.

Ataraxia

10-04-2014, 05:15 AM

Right sometimes I forget how hard SAM has it. But seriously if climactic flourish gets a 1/1 base damage increase with CHA how is it not better than Sneak Attack? With five moves and the Charis Tiara +2 you get six attack rounds of sneak attacks with an added 20% damage. It would be a cinch to get 2 weaponskills off in that time.

DNC have to worry a lot building steps, curing and samba those cost TP. With this update i don't see them being better than THF as a DD. To have a THF and DNC in a Party means that THF would most likely benefit from DNC steps and will do more DMG in Trick Attack and Sneak Attack. There is nothing to hold a THF back from DDing and they focus on sneak attack and trick attack. As for DNC they can DD a little with this update and put steps on NM but will lose Dps overtime. Overall I think it's a good update for DNC to have a strong support role.

There are more update to THF coming soon this is just part of it. I believe they were going to lower sneak attack and trick attack down to 45 second or 30 second depends. They also going to make changes to collaborator and ways to control enmity or transfer it to tank.
When i was doing incursion with THF a relic dagger do more damage than 119 weapon none R/E/M sam, monk, drk, war,. Someone phase the run and THF was first place. So imagine someone who can use Vajra mythic with that THF will make DNC look as if they are still nothing with this update.

Ataraxia

10-04-2014, 05:23 AM

They also gave Ninjas, who were already better DDs than DNC or THF against a lot of content, kick-Katanas. Why don't you declare the death of your job for that reason? By the way, they buffed WAR as well (a better DD than DNC, THF, or NIN). Why doesn't that get you in the gut?

How goddamned dumb are people that they honestly think they're competing with the other melee jobs for DPS? There is no competition. If you want damage, you bring SAM. Reasons to bring other melee include:
1) You can't find a Tsurumaru (or better) SAM, so you bring a job that buffs the SAM indirectly in some way (DRG, DNC)
2) You can't find a Tsurumaru (or better) SAM, so you sacrifice the DPS and get a mythic heavy DD (WAR, DRK, DRG).
3) Pity (Q.Q)
4) TH (THF)

^ See? The only category DNC and THF compete in is the pity category.

This taru make a lot of sense and i agree. Byrth have years of experience with FFXI and i'm sure it has done many difficult content and knows about variety of job. I have play so many 99 job and max merits them. The job i do not play is a blue mage and a BLM. If someone gonna complain about DNC than they should do their homework and tell SE what is wrong with a THF and how to make it better. I for once am happy they update DNC and it took them 5 years to come this far. This is only part of update to THF I'm sure there is more if they pay more attention to forum post by SE.

Afania

10-04-2014, 06:10 AM

Byrth

10-04-2014, 07:24 AM

Because every time you use a step, you suffer 2 seconds of JA delay. Spamming steps every 5 seconds for 50 seconds would get you a nominal 40% DPS penalty and an average of 14% defense down (less than Dia III). That 14% defense down would have to increase the dancer's DPS by more than 2/3 in order to exceed the original DPS, and it won't, so Kincard's statement is correct.

Daze duration maxes out at 2 minutes and you get at most 40 seconds duration per step (with 10/10 JPs), so you have to do one step every 40 seconds (after the next 2 minutes after capping out) to maintain this defense reduction. So lets look at some ideal cases:
1) If you extend the simulation out to 3 minutes (just one more step), you have suffered a JA-related DPS penalty of 12.2% in exchange for an average defense down of 20.5%. At that point, it's not a bad trade-off. It's probably even likely that you would benefit from this solo.
2) If you mix in Presto, you hit the cap in 30 seconds, experience an average of 21.5% defense down over 3 minutes, and suffer a 10.3% DPS penalty due to JA delay.
3) If you assume every step is also perfectly timed with a weapon skill (and use Presto), you get an average of 21.5% defense down over 3 minutes and suffer a 7.2% DPS penalty due to JA delay. It is worth noting that this case is unreasonable because 5 second WS cycle times are impossible for DNC at the moment.

So that sounds pretty good, yeah? Problem is that the vast majority of fights in all current content clock in at or below 30 seconds. So it's essentially not worth doing any more than Presto -> Box Step on the vast majority of mobs. Even in the most ideal case (#3), you average 17.8% Defense Down and 33.4% JA delay in the first 30 seconds. Unless that 17.8% Defense Down causes +50% DPS, you will personally lose DPS by doing those steps. Your party may gain a little DPS depending how large it is, what your other buffs/debuffs are, and what you're fighting, but it would hardly be worth the massive annoyance of doing all those steps.

Everything above ignores Step TP costs and the fact that players aren't really perfect, so reality is much less favorable than the pictures painted above.

Also, to clarify, I'm not asking for Dancer to parse as high as SAM. I'd just like less annoying mechanisms for the job, like reducing the Daze limit back to 5 and increasing the potency of the individual Steps to cap at their current caps. This would have a totally nominal impact on party performance and a massive impact on job enjoyment.

Glamdring

10-04-2014, 08:12 AM

I really would like to think you're familiar enough with this game to know that spamming JAs every 5 seconds is not going to be helping DNC's output, DEF Down or not (and they need to continue using the steps every so often to keep the daze up). The idea that it would help a group is worth nothing too, because nobody is going to get a DNC to be doing DEF Down, they'll just get a GEO if they want that.

The thing about utility for the light armor jobs (NIN, THF, and DNC) is that I wouldn't have a problem with that meaning they have weaker damage output compared to heavy jobs if they could actually figure out what the heck they're doing with this utility. They need to:
-Make DNC's heals and debuffs better and make them better DPS
-Make NINs be able to tank something actually worth a damn, or just give up on trying to make them tanks because they're doing a really bad job at it
-Make THF at least the best DPS of these three because they have the least versatility out of them

I'm not sure about Byrth's claim that NIN is currently a better DPS than DNC, though. I mean, when both of them are all hasted up and just TP spamming I imagine katanas outpace daggers, but currently the place these jobs shine is in trash farmed solo content or whatever, and I'm guessing DNC can do better damage than NIN by self-skillchaining. Not saying DNC couldn't use a whole lot of adjustments because honestly, all three of these jobs need them still.

Gotta disagree with some of your assessments here. Light armor melee aren’t there in a damage role generally but for other qualities they bring to the table. Dancer cures, while more power might help I think they don’t want to step on the toes of healing mages. Also, dancer derives its power from inflicting hits on prey, it is the only job that can do more the more stuff you have coming in, mages need to rest and/or Refresh, even dragoons if they are having to heal spam could, especially with different subs. And dancer is very much like a rdm in design, just fueled by TP instead of MP, and it should be obvious they don’t want utility jobs to supplant dedicated jobs based on the way they keep them underpowered vs. dedicated jobs, e.g. geo and rdm only having tier 4 nukes, only whm has cure 5 or 6, etc.

As to nin tanking, I think most are of the opinion SE never wanted Nin to tank in the first place, players were just less attached to their gil than SE estimated and didn’t mind fishing for Squid. As every mob they are bringing in to new content seemingly strips shadows in 2 seconds or less I’d say it’s pretty obvious SE does not WANT blink-tanking back in any form either. So buffing them in a DD and/or puller role seems kind of natural to bring them back to the table. To be honest, a free ranged attack in a melee round is a little weird as a “fix” but they needed to do something.

As to the Thief DPS/versatility remarks, I think you are way off. First, SE seems to think there is nothing wrong with thief’s hate control abilities (and if players would modulate their damage output to accommodate them then SE would be correct, but players won’t). Assuming you could still SA>WS reliably, then thf will likely outparse both Dancer and Nin, especially if Dnc is using their TP frequently to help the party. If that was working, so would the rest of thief’s hate control, and that coupled with TH makes thief more desirable than either DD Nin or utility Dnc.

Lastly, for a comparison between jobs, I think you need to do your testing on the same prey conning EM, likely 119 mobs. Against those I think Nin will outparse dnc because they hit harder and have that extra ranged attack, while a dancer which may occasionally self-SC may also be healing quite a bit.

Now, as to group utility for any job, it seems SE’s current efforts are directed to renewing the balanced party, I think they want to revive tank/2 DD/Nuker-Ranged/Support/Healer. If they do so, well if you remember back that far there was a great deal of wriggle room in that set-up. Obviously, the way they are going end-game means nin is out as a tank, but monk and (if they can ever get it to work) Rune may rotate in as tanks. Support has the addition of scholar, and I guess blue and geo may be here depending how they are used. Nin is rotated into DD, probably in a hybrid role as a puller, too. Other jobs are frankly a bit muddled, but they have their spots. This will likely be shaken up some as SE tries to work the kinks out yet (and I’m not confident they will succeed in their attempts either), but some of these changes that seem to have no purpose right now do have a purpose if you map the trend across all the jobs they are playing with. In fact, the only jobs I see getting outright hurt are pet jobs, as their pets are being weakened compared to their historical performance, and based on what they have done it is clearly intentional.

The biggest problem actually is that they are doing this stuff piecemeal. I’m sure from a developer standpoint it makes it easier for them to get a handle on what adjustments are working and what aren’t, but it leads to A LOT of player dissatisfaction with seemingly useless updates. And in addition, while we players speculate based on what we DO know-how to play the jobs as currently built + hints from timelines-we don’t have much of a clue what new bad-guys SE is planning to throw at us, let alone in what kind of playsystem, although I think an Aby analogue is highly unlikely. We also don’t know what the eventual AF3 JSE gear upgrades are going to do exactly, except we have been told they are in the pipeline (I hope so, I’d hate to think I was stockpiling chapters for nothing). But any futher adjustment could have a profound impact on play.

pretre

10-04-2014, 10:58 AM

WARRIORS COME OUT AND PLAYAY!!!! my bravura starting to look nice again

Kincard

10-04-2014, 02:13 PM

I don't get why people always assume that whenever someone mentions that a job should be adjusted in this game, it means "make them as good as what is currently best at that role". I can't tell if people who make this sort of argument actually misunderstand or just feel the need to exaggerate everything to win an argument about a video game.

Red Mage is not as good a healer as WHM, not as good a nuker as BLM, not as good a debuff/buffer as pretty much every other support class. But they offer such a nice combination of the three that they can easily find themselves a slot in a group (maybe not in most shout groups since people are dumb, but most linkshells seem to understand RDMs are quite useful). This is not the case for DNC, NIN, and arguably THF. Part of this is because of just how much weaker these three jobs are at doing damage, the DPS loss your group suffers simply isn't worth the versatility these jobs bring. I mean, BLU is probably the most ridiculously versatile job in the game and even they can have a hard time finding slots in a lot of parties because of their weaker DPS compared to two-handers.

It's not even a small loss either, if I recall correctly a heavy DD with a 119 weapon will be outdoing these jobs even with a mythic by at least 30%. This is if they're continuously attacking and never stopping to do something else. The versatility these jobs supposedly add are:

DNC: Support healer, debuffs through steps and some flourishes, buffs through samba
NIN: Tanking, mixed damage through shuriken and ton-jutsu, debuffs from ninjutsu
THF: Treasure hunter, enmity control

I think DNC needs waltz recast reduction (or at least more equipment that can do this and not just a level 75 helm nobody uses anymore) and probably a cost reduction on them as well. That or DNC needs more ways to quickly generate TP if they want DNC to be an effective healer. Their steps work against this concept because they'll be losing TP from using it and not getting TP from the JA delay. Like Byrth said, a reduction in either the JA delay (hell, you can make it a special job trait for DNCs if you'd like) or making steps scale up faster would help. Not sure what they could do for sambas, I guess another 5% on haste samba would be nice? Or if they want to be redundant with a bunch of other jobs they can create new sambas that give attack up or something.

NIN is a terrible tank at anything high end (please stop talking about what SE used to think of this job, they have referred to this job as a tank for years now, so their intention is to make it a tank, no matter how bad of a job they're doing at it). They tank fine against mid level stuff but you could make a DD tank those things usually so it's not like it matters. SE needs to look at shields and understand why that has made PLD the only useful tank in the game. They need to give NIN evasion bonus and add some kind of ridiculously powerful item that makes NIN's evasion comparable to the PLD's shield damage reduction. If they can fix them as a tank their DPS role really isn't as important, but I should note that there have been leaks that suggest that level 119 shuriken have 104D. This means any hope of Daken "fixing" the job is out the window unless they're going to change that. That's actually less damage than Kannagi, a weapon that purposefully had its Base Damage set low because of its AM. Funny to think at level 75 shurikens often had damage that matches or even beat two handed weapons, and suddenly now they have damage comparable to daggers. What? Ninjutsu outside of Utsusemi and Migawari are rarely used (Kakka other self buffs can be used pre-pull), I probably don't need to expand on how you can fix these.

THF is the only job out of these that is invited to groups, exclusively because of their ability to make items drop more. Okay, fine, I guess that's something. Their Enmity control is too limited, though. They have basically just two abilities that can do this, Trick Attack and Collaborator/Accomplice (shared recast). Personally I think something like making a stance that basically has Trick Attack's effects minus the damage spike would work, but even that wouldn't help if THF continues to only poke enemies for bad damage, so they would need to boost THF's damage output if they want that idea to work.

Atomic_Skull

10-04-2014, 02:44 PM

There are more update to THF coming soon this is just part of it.

I have watched THF get screwed over by SE for 12 years so I will believe it when I see it because I have never ever seen them come through for THF in the past.

Afania

10-04-2014, 05:28 PM

So that sounds pretty good, yeah? Problem is that the vast majority of fights in all current content clock in at or below 30 seconds.

As far as I remember the only current content NM I ever done in sub 30 sec are:

Headwind zerg
T2 and T3 in yorcia delve
Some lower tier NM in delve1 can maybe hit close to 30 sec if your DDs are really good.

If your DDs are super elite maybe you can kill some delve1 NM in sub 30 sec, otherwise I don't see how "majority of the fights end in less than 30 sec" applicable to the majority.

If you mean fodder, personally I don't notice a difference between DDs on fodder, most of them die after 1 SC, as long as you can TP fast enough the difference aren't big. NM wise most of the NM in BC/incursion last well over 3 min.

Afania

10-04-2014, 05:35 PM

It's not even a small loss either, if I recall correctly a heavy DD with a 119 weapon will be outdoing these jobs even with a mythic by at least 30%.

Define "Heavy DD", does that include delve2 weapon DRK and WAR? Cuz I'm not entirely convinced that those jobs can beat mythic THF NIN DNC by 30%.

Glamdring

10-10-2014, 07:35 AM

Ok, so I’ve had a couple days to play with the update changes and some preliminary thoughts.

Summoner-Atomos is underwhelming. As posted elsewhere against normal mobs his absorb ability is just too slow. Since it doesn’t seem to work against boss-level mobs it is useless there. And of course as usual with absorb/dispel abilities it targets the least important one 1st. As to the Avatar’s Favor change, it just seems it would have been better to hold off until the other boosts SE are speaking of were ready to be rolled out at one time. The pet accuracy buff, thank you. Not to sound ungrateful but could we also get the much needed attack, defense, speed and evasion buffs as well?

Beastmaster-A+ axe isn’t that big of a change, we were still an A after all, but with pets incapable of tanking now even with the master spamming Snarl we might as well max out the master’s damage. We still need pets that match the proportional power of a 119 slug to a 119 beast, instead of a 111 slug to a 119 beast, and that’s WITH a 119 axe, 5/5 BA Merits and 119 Ankusa+1 gloves. The pet accuracy buff, thank you. Not to sound ungrateful but could we also get the much needed attack, defense, speed and evasion buffs as well?

Puppetmaster-I like the H2H boost, we aren’t infringing on Monk territory too much because we still don’t have the HP to take hits, no counters, etc. The pet accuracy buff, thank you. Not to sound ungrateful but could we also get the much needed attack, defense, speed and evasion buffs as well? As pointed out elsewhere we still need some work. Manuvers obviously have been a sticking point for years. In this case however my issue is more the Stormwalker auto, it’s time he cast on the rest of the party as well, like a real red mage. I like getting haste 2 but frankly there is more benefit from the Samurai getting it, other jobs need healing, phalanx, stoneskin, etc. You get the picture.

Dragoon- The pet accuracy buff, thank you. Not to sound ungrateful but could we also get the much needed attack, defense, speed and evasion buffs as well? And a means of calling shorter than 20 minutes, that is the big thing that keeps Drg out of end-game. 1 good AoE can 1-shot the pet and then half the job’s power is gone for 20 minutes? Not cool at all.

Blue mage-they are going to whine no matter how much you do for them, but frankly I think you did a lot. Mostly, they need more slots to go with adding 20 ilevels to the job, and a savable palette of spells-several sets-to speed changing in the field.

Dancer-there are many ways you could have gone to beef the job, unfortunately I think you picked the worst one. Steps every 5 seconds?! That barely gives them time to get the TP for the step you expect them to apply, and yet they are somehow to be healing and self-skillchaining and the like? Frankly, I just don’t see it. Now as I pointed out it adds utility to parties as you can have other jobs debuff other things-I’ll give a couple years for the slow learners to realize the difference between 1 and 2 options-but against normal mobs there isn’t the need and against boss mobs there are frankly better uses of a Dancer’s limited TP than just spamming steps. Of course the steps are needed for stunning. As to the A+ dagger, about time, hard to have the TP to cast cures and the like if you are whiffing all the time, and Reverse Flourish shouldn’t be your primary means of TP gain.

Thief-another group of whiners. Even with all the changes you just made to dancer do they REALLY believe a dancer is going to get their slot in a party? If so they are idiots, a primary dagger wielder is only getting into a party if they have TH6+, otherwise that slot is going to a monk, samurai or ranger and we all know it-and yes, I am a 119 thief. Now, you could fix things so thief enmity control is again viable-expecting players to moderate their damage output to allow a thief to function in that capacity is simply NOT going to happen and all the wishful thinking on the part of the Devs is not going to change that, accept it and develop accordingly. But thief’s party role is safe as long as no other job can pass TH3.

Now, I haven’t broken out my geo and my war and nin are only level 49 for sub purposes. All I can say is I haven’t heard any complaints from my friends on those jobs so I think you got those adjustments right. Nins and /nins are still complaining about shadows going down too fast and rightfully so if you ever mean blink-tanking to be viable again. War still seems awfully squishy to some for a heavy DD, but as I continually point out to them (and they can’t seem to grasp) when you gear for pure damage infliction you suffer on defense-the gear IS available, you are just choosing not to use it. And geo is still a royal pain in the butt to skill-up and I refuse to buy botting software to do it for me. Although God knows I am tempted...

Selindrile

10-11-2014, 02:47 AM

Whines about the jobs I play that are behind the curve, then calls the people who play the jobs I don't that are behind the curve whiners.

Pet jobs do need a lot of help still, especially Bst.

Blu is still behind Mnk and Sam, but are ahead of, or on par with most of the rest of their competitors, I appreciate the effort but a lot of their fixes are off the mark, the only real benefit I appreciated from this update for Blu was now Barrier tusk is situationally useful, but I still won't use it often.

Thf still needs a lot of help, though Dnc needs more.

Admittedly I agree with most of Glamdring's points to be honest, it just rang very insincere to imply certain jobs' players were "whiners" any more than any other specific jobs' players, especially while whining about your own jobs.

Pixela

10-11-2014, 02:55 AM

With these job changes I think RDM should of got some love too, maybe at the very least a boost to dark magic skill so they can reliably stun alongside the other jobs.

Metaking

10-11-2014, 06:32 AM

@glamdring: buy pages and pop them with skill up food (the earring if you got it) and sakura out the seem to force higher skill gains off the pages, which getting .3-.5 it will blow by

@selindrie: im enjoying the boost to orchis for exp, and barrier tusk+ saline saved my bacon alot on a D titan, one of the runs went down, and things got .... intense >.>;

Glamdring

10-11-2014, 07:48 AM

@metaking, I would but my sparks are in use stockpiling chapters for JSE... and I have 11 99 jobs, geo is #11 in my priority list-and will be falling as I'm leveling pld, sch and whm at the moment.

@sel, not whining about anything on those other jobs-ok, maybe at the miserable skill-up rate on geo, just as I did at smn skill, parry and guard and still do about shield. the pet jobs things had to do with the fact from the very start of SoA every single content addition has seen all pet jobs weakened, specifically in all the criteria I've mentioned-although the death of a wyvern has been discussed for years, and I still remember when calling wyvern was Drg's 2-hour. The only possible conclusion is that pet jobs are being deliberately nerfed but SE-despite almost 2 years passing has failed to state they were doing so, and I doubt they will now. So I'm calling them on their BS-if the jobs are to be as strong in relation to other jobs as they have historically been then all of that needs to be addressed, not just accuracy.

The whining mention was that for blu you got a bunch of new spells and some buffs to make play easier on the job, 2 updates in a row where blue concerns have been addressed, and pretty substantially at that. 19 other jobs got no help at all in that same time period, although at least 5 don't really need any help.

The thief remarks were because the rants have literally been asinine. NO primary dagger job is going to be invited to endgame for damage so dancer getting A+ means precisely diddly-squat. Thief will be invited because they have TH and mobs have drops, just as they were last week and just as they will be next week, that's it as currently built, but this update changed absolutely nothing for thief, contrary to those who think they just became less desirable. Everything dancer was given can still be done better, faster and easier by other jobs so you still won't be seeing them asked for in parties.

As to nin and warrior, these are observations. Warriors are squishy because they choose to be squishy; warrior defense is armor and shield based, SE has made the armor and shields, what they cannot do is force a warrior to put them on-or to use defender which they DID buff. Ninja, well if SE still means for them to be a tank it's the mechanism that allows them to be a tank that needs to be addressed, i.e. Shadows. If they are trying to transition them to something else like a DD/puller then I think there's still a good bit of work to do, but no question, Daken is a nice start on that. And let's face it, despite the ninjitsu out there being a nuker or an enfeebler is NOT a stand-out role for a ninja, hence why no one even brings that up. So I think even the ninjas would like a little clarity there.

Camiie

10-11-2014, 09:11 PM

As to nin and warrior, these are observations. Warriors are squishy because they choose to be squishy; warrior defense is armor and shield based, SE has made the armor and shields, what they cannot do is force a warrior to put them on-or to use defender which they DID buff.

As a WAR I'm invited to do damage. Popping Defender and wearing a shield mean I'm no longer doing my assigned duty to the best of my ability. Fencer doesn't make up for the lack of a second axe if I'm going that route. Sure if I go axe/board and pop Defender I'll live longer if for no other reason than I'll quickly lose hate to the other DDs. Of course the mob will live longer too which will likely cause more death and chaos.

Glamdring

10-12-2014, 12:02 AM

@Cam, there's nothing that prevents you switching to def gear when 3 of the party go red HP and popping defender to let the whm get some cures off though. But I was also speaking more to war soloing when I talk being squishy. You swap gear for everything else you do, why not to live the extra 6 seconds it will take the healer to get to you? and after all, how much damage are you going to contribute while dead or weakened?

Camiie

10-12-2014, 03:15 AM

Oh trust me I do that, but it pretty much never does any good. If things are that close to the edge it's generally due to a lackluster back line in the first place and they won't get to me in those 6 seconds. I did once get to play emergency tank in Divine Might II on Normal. That worked out because the healers were able to focus solely on me during the recovery stage. Cureskin helped me to keep my shadows up. That sort of thing is by far the exception though.

Malithar

10-12-2014, 09:31 AM

@Cam, there's nothing that prevents you switching to def gear when 3 of the party go red HP and popping defender to let the whm get some cures off though.

Good Wars, and any player really, will do this already, it's called a -DT set. But advocating shield for War is beyond silly in such a situation. You'd be giving up your TP and/or any Aftermath effects, as well as having to switch back yet again once things even out, resetting yourself. Not saying shield doesn't have any point for War (but honestly...) but it's not something you should be switching in all willy nilly.

Glamdring

10-14-2014, 07:40 AM

I'm not speaking of willy nilly, I'm speaking of fecal matter>>rotating blades, aka I have 10 seconds to live if that. I'd switch to holding a brick wall if it was necessary. I know XP is quick to recover, that isn't the issue, it's that your weakened time can be the margin between victory and defeat in tougher content. and like I said for the party situation it would be 3 or more chars going red simultaneously-likely from an AoE TP or spell. Well any main healer is going to hit up the tank 1st, then the DD, but WHICH dd, the war, the mnk, the sam? you can be down the depth list for that cure, and that isn't a bad backline, it's just too many DD to healers, and healers need to get MP even with refresh gear. If you are solo... well trust healers aren't always the quickest off the ball, if you are /dnc there are still stun and para effects (or even worse in that situation, TP reset). In other words, stuff happens but many DD, especially wars that I see do not come prepared for it. Then they blame the healer, or the stunner. Well sorry, but you may be 3-4 in the cure list. Oh, and the mob isn't sitting still while we are working our way to you. It's not backline malice or incompetence, we just have LOTS of stuff to do.

Malithar

10-14-2014, 12:46 PM

like I said for the party situation it would be 3 or more chars going red simultaneously-likely from an AoE TP or spell. Well any main healer is going to hit up the tank 1st, then the DD, but WHICH dd, the war, the mnk, the sam? you can be down the depth list for that cure, and that isn't a bad backline, it's just too many DD to healers, and healers need to get MP even with refresh gear. If you are solo... well trust healers aren't always the quickest off the ball, if you are /dnc there are still stun and para effects (or even worse in that situation, TP reset). In other words, stuff happens but many DD, especially wars that I see do not come prepared for it. Then they blame the healer, or the stunner. Well sorry, but you may be 3-4 in the cure list. Oh, and the mob isn't sitting still while we are working our way to you. It's not backline malice or incompetence, we just have LOTS of stuff to do.

No, I'd blame the healer in that situation. There's a nifty line of spells called Curaga (or Ascension Cure IV) that work excellent in that very situation. You're there to DD, if equipping a -DT set isn't enough to save you, a shield will not push you over some magical threshold.

For what it's worth, I Whm occasionally, and I'd be annoyed if I saw a War bothering with a shield.

Dale

10-14-2014, 01:20 PM

No, I'd blame the healer in that situation. There's a nifty line of spells called Curaga (or Ascension Cure IV) that work excellent in that very situation. You're there to DD, if equipping a -DT set isn't enough to save you, a shield will not push you over some magical threshold.

For what it's worth, I Whm occasionally, and I'd be annoyed if I saw a War bothering with a shield.

Why would seeing a Warrior using a shield annoy you?

Atomic_Skull

10-14-2014, 04:51 PM

Why would seeing a Warrior using a shield annoy you?

Same reason seeing a THF using a sword annoys me I imagine.

Malithar

10-14-2014, 05:25 PM

Why would seeing a Warrior using a shield annoy you?

Because they're clearly gearing for defense in situations (read; anything at all, ever) where it is not needed. As the Whm, I'd be annoyed that someone was being un-optimal for the role they were brought to, when they will not die. It's intentionally gimping yourself for 0 gain, only loss.

If it helps, think of it as "I don't trust you to keep me alive, so I'm going to intentionally do worse at the roll I was brought for in order to 'insure' my safety." 'Insure' because a shield will do jack all.

Afania

10-14-2014, 10:39 PM

Why would seeing a Warrior using a shield annoy you?

Seeing a warrior using a shield wouldn't annoy me if there's a good reason, it's hard to find a good reason though.

Dale

10-14-2014, 11:22 PM

Because they're clearly gearing for defense in situations (read; anything at all, ever) where it is not needed. As the Whm, I'd be annoyed that someone was being un-optimal for the role they were brought to, when they will not die. It's intentionally gimping yourself for 0 gain, only loss.

If it helps, think of it as "I don't trust you to keep me alive, so I'm going to intentionally do worse at the roll I was brought for in order to 'insure' my safety." 'Insure' because a shield will do jack all.

But that is just your opinion. And like you know what, everyone has one.

As long as you are winning the fight and the warrior with the shield isn't playing stupid or getting people killed - I see no legitimate reason to be annoyed by it. Seems to me you let silly things bother you. I have seen some very good warriors who go sword and board.

Also: I should point out there is a lot more to playing your job than just always doing damage. Any player who limits himself to such a small task is the one who is really gimping the group if you ask me. So I would agree with Glamdring. Players should expand their thought process and breadth of capabilities when possible. To always assume its the healer's job to keep you alive no matter in any situation is a good way to end up on the floor dead blaming others.

Dale

10-14-2014, 11:25 PM

Seeing a warrior using a shield wouldn't annoy me if there's a good reason, it's hard to find a good reason though.

Again, you should be careful not to expect everyone else to live up to your own individual reasoning.

Just because you think there is no good reason to, doesn't mean everyone else does.

Malithar

10-14-2014, 11:39 PM

the warrior with the shield isn't playing stupid
..That is playing stupid.

Also: I should point out there is a lot more to playing your job than just always doing damage. Any player who limits himself to such a small task is the one who is really gimping the group if you ask me. So I would agree with Glamdring. Players should expand their thought process and breadth of capabilities when possible. To always assume its the healer's job to keep you alive no matter what is a good way to end up on the floor dead blaming others.

As a healer, I'll be the first to say it: It is my job to ensure that no one ends up on the floor no matter what. There's very few things in this game anymore that have the damage output to really be a threat with a competent healer and support. The things that are a risk, you use -DT sets, Scherzo, Earthern Armor, or Geo-Wilt/Fend. I don't know how else to put it, but a shield on a War is not helping anyone at all. Good DDs aren't just limited to... good DD, but that's their role. That's why they're there. The good ones will know to voke incoming mobs, do a hate grabbing action after a hate wipe, maintain shadows, -DT sets on when/if needed, WS/SC when is optimal, stack JAs in such a way to get the most out of them, etc. They're not single minded, even Sam and Mnk, two DDs that are considered some of the most single minded around benefit greatly from playing smart and following the above points. But a shield on a War...no, this does absolutely nothing except for gimp the role you're brought for. I played War extensively before it became obvious that my Geo would be infinitely more useful in any content than it. I even skilled shield just cause. But it serves nearly 0 purpose, kiting is the only thing that even remotely comes to mind, and even that's a stretch; what's honestly kited anymore? Is that +30ish defense of whatever even going to make a difference?

As far as letting things bother me, it's more a pride matter. As I said in the previous post, I'd be annoyed if a War in my party had a shield. That's directly saying "I don't trust you to keep me alive." Because guess what, that War didn't get an invite to come and pseudo-kinda-sorta be a tank, he came to DD. His role is to DD. If he tanks from pumping out better numbers than the rest, awesome, I don't have to bother healing a bunch of others except for after TP moves and spells. But he better not toss on a shield because 1, he doesn't need it to survive, and 2, it's not helping the himself or the run. It's gimping himself for...what? Because he's an outside the box thinker that's ahead of his time? He won't be in my runs anymore, I know that much.

Again, you should be careful not to expect everyone else to live up to your own individual reasoning.

Just because you think there is no good reason to, doesn't mean everyone else does.

Name an honest to god good reason for a War to use a shield in a party situation. And don't do some mouth breather setup like Dnc main healer and 5 DDs without any protective JAs/spells/gear.

A War's role is DD. -DT sets, spells, and JAs are more than enough to survive anything. In what way does a shield help a War fulfill his role? And no, Fencer isn't enough to close the gap. And no, the defense provided by the shield doesn't magically make you able to tank. If anything, you'd tank worse because you're doing far less damage, while still taking similar amounts of damage, thus bleeding hate. So what use is there to it?

Dale

10-15-2014, 12:10 AM

..That is playing stupid.

As a healer, I'll be the first to say it: It is my job to ensure that no one ends up on the floor no matter what. There's very few things in this game anymore that have the damage output to really be a threat with a competent healer and support. The things that are a risk, you use -DT sets, Scherzo, Earthern Armor, or Geo-Wilt/Fend. I don't know how else to put it, but a shield on a War is not helping anyone at all. Good DDs aren't just limited to... good DD, but that's their role. That's why they're there. The good ones will know to voke incoming mobs, do a hate grabbing action after a hate wipe, maintain shadows, -DT sets on when/if needed, WS/SC when is optimal, stack JAs in such a way to get the most out of them, etc. They're not single minded, even Sam and Mnk, two DDs that are considered some of the most single minded around benefit greatly from playing smart and following the above points. But a shield on a War...no, this does absolutely nothing except for gimp the role you're brought for. I played War extensively before it became obvious that my Geo would be infinitely more useful in any content than it. I even skilled shield just cause. But it serves nearly 0 purpose, kiting is the only thing that even remotely comes to mind, and even that's a stretch; what's honestly kited anymore? Is that +30ish defense of whatever even going to make a difference?

As far as letting things bother me, it's more a pride matter. As I said in the previous post, I'd be annoyed if a War in my party had a shield. That's directly saying "I don't trust you to keep me alive." Because guess what, that War didn't get an invite to come and pseudo-kinda-sorta be a tank, he came to DD. His role is to DD. If he tanks from pumping out better numbers than the rest, awesome, I don't have to bother healing a bunch of others except for after TP moves and spells. But he better not toss on a shield because 1, he doesn't need it to survive, and 2, it's not helping the himself or the run. It's gimping himself for...what? Because he's an outside the box thinker that's ahead of his time? He won't be in my runs anymore, I know that much.

Name an honest to god good reason for a War to use a shield in a party situation. And don't do some mouth breather setup like Dnc main healer and 5 DDs without any protective JAs/spells/gear.

A War's role is DD. -DT sets, spells, and JAs are more than enough to survive anything. In what way does a shield help a War fulfill his role? And no, Fencer isn't enough to close the gap. And no, the defense provided by the shield doesn't magically make you able to tank. If anything, you'd tank worse because you're doing far less damage, while still taking similar amounts of damage, thus bleeding hate. So what use is there to it?

I'll respond broadly to a few points.

That is your opinion that using a shield as a warrior is stupid. The warrior using a shield obviously disagrees. But you can feel it's stupid if you want. That's your right. Just don't openly mock him or make rude comments to him because of it. Because that is your issue if you want to let silly things like that cause you personal annoyance. Not his. And he shouldn't have to suffer because of another player's intolerance (for the record I'm not saying you do mock warriors who use shields. But just in case you do I am asking you not to).

Also: it's not your job your job as a healer to ensure no one ends up on the floor no matter what. You of course do what you can to prevent it. But to say it's a healer's job to keep everyone alive no matter what is an impossible standard you will never be able to live up to. And to expect other healers to live up to such an insane job description is unreasonable.

As far as you asking me to give you honest to god good reasons to use a shield in a party situation I will let a warrior do that. I don't play the job, so I'm not qualified to answer such a question. All I know is I have played with some very good warriors who used shields. So it's not as horrible as you are making out.

Dale

10-15-2014, 12:19 AM

Same reason seeing a THF using a sword annoys me I imagine.

If the weapon a person is using in a video game causes you annoyance, you must have a very carefree life :)

I'm sure you can find better things to get annoyed about.

Tidis

10-15-2014, 12:35 AM

It may be his opinion but it's backed up by facts, facts that the DoT a WAR will lose using a shield and, I assume an Axe when compared to using a GA is massive, especially when factoring in what shield WAR has access to and their fairly average shield skill, over the course of a battle as he says, the war will shed more enmity from damage taken than they make up with damage mitigation using a shield.

What is opinion is definitely you saying you've played with some good warriors that use a shield, conversely, my opinion is that no good warrior would use a shield.

Kincard

10-15-2014, 12:55 AM

Holy crap, did I just take a time machine back to 2005 Allakhazam where bad players were throwing around the term elitist or "opinion" whenever someone says something is demonstratively inferior in a largely number-based RPG game?

Using your confirmation bias to find a conceited individual who thinks he's "elite" but actually turns out to be a bad player doesn't mean "elitists" are bad or less flexible at the game than you are.

Out of all the possibilities I can think of in the game, the situations I can think of where things go so far south you actually need a Warrior to put on a shield probably means something else has gone wrong in your group. It's useful in so few instances it's not worth the two inventory slots you could use for other pieces of armor.

Dale

10-15-2014, 12:57 AM

Dale

10-15-2014, 01:00 AM

Holy crap, did I just take a time machine back to 2005 Allakhazam where bad players were throwing around the term elitist or "opinion" whenever someone says something is demonstratively inferior in a largely number-based RPG game?

There is a huge difference in demonstrating why something is inferior and then saying you are annoyed by other players who may do something different.

I hope you can see that.

A warrior using a shield shouldn't annoy anyone. If you don't want to play with him then fine - don't play with him. That is entirely your right. But to let it annoy you or use it as a source for ridicule is just silly.

Kincard

10-15-2014, 01:33 AM

Afania

10-15-2014, 02:01 AM

I'll respond broadly to a few points.

That is your opinion that using a shield as a warrior is stupid. The warrior using a shield obviously disagrees. But you can feel it's stupid if you want. That's your right. Just don't openly mock him or make rude comments to him because of it. Because that is your issue if you want to let silly things like that cause you personal annoyance. Not his. And he shouldn't have to suffer because of another player's intolerance (for the record I'm not saying you do mock warriors who use shields. But just in case you do I am asking you not to).

Also: it's not your job your job as a healer to ensure no one ends up on the floor no matter what. You of course do what you can to prevent it. But to say it's a healer's job to keep everyone alive no matter what is an impossible standard you will never be able to live up to. And to expect other healers to live up to such an insane job description is unreasonable.

As far as you asking me to give you honest to god good reasons to use a shield in a party situation I will let a warrior do that. I don't play the job, so I'm not qualified to answer such a question. All I know is I have played with some very good warriors who used shields. So it's not as horrible as you are making out.

WAR shouldn't use a shield is an opinion based on math and calculations. "I like apple" is an opinion, it's personal preference that has nothing to do with math and numbers. "1+1=2" is math and fact, it's not an opinion. This is FFXI, everything is based on math and numbers, this isn't an art class that you have your own free will to choose how you want to get things done.

You lose more than you gain by using a shield, WAR can't use a shield as effectively as a PLD, on the other hand, the killing speed decrease is very noticeable. The result is, you take A LOT longer to kill stuff, the WHM wastes more MP, things got harder to kill and it requires more support because the entire event become a pain in the ass to do.

Further more, there are many other means to reduce dmg taken, DT- sets, /NIN, scherzo, defense buffs, or better pt setup. If you take at look at your DPS decrease v.s a bit higher survive-ability that doesn't make a zomg difference, it's hardly worth it.

Telling the WAR "you shouldn't use a shield" isn't disrespect, because the WAR is hindering the pt performance. The WAR that's using a shield isn't respecting everyone else's time to begin with.

If the WAR take that comment personal, then I have nothing to say.......

Also, everyone has right to feel "annoyed" if they see a player purposely choose a way to play the game that wastes 5 other player's time. This has nothing to do with personality/disrespect.

Seillan

10-15-2014, 02:11 AM

If someone is wasting your time by being a bad player, then I don't see why someone wouldn't be annoyed. I don't think I've heard of people being annoyed at bad players they don't play with, they usually just laugh at them.

One of the problems with your exact attitude is that people are often complaining about how they don't get invites in the game, and if anybody tells them its because of their favored job being terrible in the current game or because they gear/play poorly, they're usually the ones that actually get angry and act rude, as opposed to the people who know what they're doing. I've seen this over and over again, apparently giving advice = rude. A large portion of the playerbase has gotten jaded about that and basically nobody helps each other anymore, because people are almost never receptive to anything you have to say. (BTW, my favorite job is NIN, which has consistently been a terrible job except for exp grinding the old fashioned way and the Abyssea era, and some really niche things like Ark Angel EV)

If you've ever heard rumors of Japanese PUGs being more pleasant, I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's partially because Japanese players have a larger portion of people that are receptive to people giving them advice on how to play the game.

This isn't really a problem restricted to this game, this happens in basically every MMO. People that take the time and effort to learn how to play the game are always going to be annoyed at players that not just waste their time by being bad, but are also completely uninterested in improving and get defensive if you try to help them.

I think it depends on what type of "help" you're talking about. Calling someone "bad" and ridiculing them for playing a "useless" class and/or because they aren't using the most optimal gear setups isn't helping them at all; it just causes feelings of resentment. I'm not saying you do this (maybe you genuinely try to help inexperienced players while not being an asshole to them) but unfortunately, I'd say you would be the exception. The Japanese seem like a more polite/less confrontational culture in general, so it's not surprising that they remain diplomatic when giving advice; I'd wager they also don't forcefully interject their opinions as the only viable way to do something either. I've had enough experience in end-game situations in US mmorpgs to know that's typically not the case here -- in fact, it's practically the opposite. If more people actually remained sensible, patient, and polite while offering helpful advice to people that were struggling with their class/job for whatever reason, I doubt most people on the receiving end of said advice would get defensive about it. In other words, the presentation of advice is important. Telling someone to "L2P" is not advice, nor is it helpful in any way whatsoever.

Dale

10-15-2014, 02:29 AM

If someone is wasting your time by being a bad player, then I don't see why someone wouldn't be annoyed. I don't think I've heard of people being annoyed at bad players they don't play with, they usually just laugh at them.

One of the problems with your exact attitude is that people are often complaining about how they don't get invites in the game, and if anybody tells them its because of their favored job being terrible in the current game or because they gear/play poorly, they're usually the ones that actually get angry and act rude, as opposed to the people who know what they're doing. I've seen this over and over again, apparently giving advice = rude. A large portion of the playerbase has gotten jaded about that and basically nobody helps each other anymore, because people are almost never receptive to anything you have to say. (BTW, my favorite job is NIN, which has consistently been a terrible job except for exp grinding the old fashioned way and the Abyssea era, and some really niche things like Ark Angel EV)

If you've ever heard rumors of Japanese PUGs being more pleasant, I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's partially because Japanese players have a larger portion of people that are receptive to people giving them advice on how to play the game.

This isn't really a problem restricted to this game, this happens in basically every MMO. People that take the time and effort to learn how to play the game are always going to be annoyed at players that not just waste their time by being bad, but are also completely uninterested in improving and get defensive if you try to help them.

I'll try to respond to this.

I specifically pointed out if you didn't want to group with a warrior who uses a shield I recognize your right not to do. And just because another player chooses to wear a shield that in no way wastes your time. So I don't understand what you are complaining about here. You can spend your time playing with who ever you want. I was never advocating forcing you to group with warriors who use shields.

And I'm going to stick to my guns on this. Because if seeing a warrior using a shield on this game annoys you, then I think you need better things to worry about. Because that is just not a good reason to get annoyed at someone in my opinion. That warrior is paying a subscription to play this game just like you and should be left alone to use a shield if he wants without being mocked or ridiculed for it.

As far as your other comments about my attitude... and why you somehow think this relates to people complaining about not getting invites or how you have trouble finding players who are receptive to your advice or play to your standards. I suspect your real problem in this area may have more to do with your limited view of how people should play and how you give out your advice rather my attitude. But that is just a guess. Because I have no problem getting invites or finding good players to play with Kincard. So perhaps it's not my attitude that is the problem here :) But you are of course entitled to your opinion.

Dale

10-15-2014, 02:35 AM

WAR shouldn't use a shield is an opinion based on math and calculations. "I like apple" is an opinion, it's personal preference that has nothing to do with math and numbers. "1+1=2" is math and fact, it's not an opinion. This is FFXI, everything is based on math and numbers, this isn't an art class that you have your own free will to choose how you want to get things done.

You lose more than you gain by using a shield, WAR can't use a shield as effectively as a PLD, on the other hand, the killing speed decrease is very noticeable. The result is, you take A LOT longer to kill stuff, the WHM wastes more MP, things got harder to kill and it requires more support because the entire event become a pain in the ass to do.

Further more, there are many other means to reduce dmg taken, DT- sets, /NIN, scherzo, defense buffs, or better pt setup. If you take at look at your DPS decrease v.s a bit higher survive-ability that doesn't make a zomg difference, it's hardly worth it.

Telling the WAR "you shouldn't use a shield" isn't disrespect, because the WAR is hindering the pt performance. The WAR that's using a shield isn't respecting everyone else's time to begin with.

If the WAR take that comment personal, then I have nothing to say.......

Also, everyone has right to feel "annoyed" if they see a player purposely choose a way to play the game that wastes 5 other player's time. This has nothing to do with personality/disrespect.

Not everyone plays the game to be as mathematically effective at damage as possible Afania. That is what you don't seem to understand. Nor do they need to to be to be successful at this game. That is just a personal choice you make. And to expect everyone else to make that same choice is unreasonable.

And again: no one is forcing anyone to play with a warrior who uses a shield. No one is wasting your time or making you play with other players you do not approve of. You are free to play with whoever you want and however you want.

Now I agree with you that giving a warrior your opinion that they shouldn't use a shield is not a show of disrespect. But to get annoyed at someone because they do use a shield however is a different story.

People just need to learn to live and let live some and come to grips with the fact not everyone is going to play this game exactly as they think they should.

detlef

10-15-2014, 04:22 AM

A WAR with a shield is as effective as a WAR equipping nothing at all in the offhand slot. Are people seriously encouraging this kind of play?

Kincard

10-15-2014, 04:36 AM

Seillan

10-15-2014, 05:11 AM

detlef

10-15-2014, 05:51 AM

The first paragraph of his post is probably directed at Dale. It is likely that only the portion of his post directly after your quote is directed at you.

Seillan

10-15-2014, 06:03 AM

The first paragraph of his post is probably directed at Dale. It is likely that only the portion of his post directly after your quote is directed at you.

Ah, well if that's the case I apologize for the overreaction. I figured that top part was in response to posts I made in the other thread pertaining to this subject, since the conversations are somewhat linked.

Edited: clarification

Dale

10-16-2014, 02:18 AM

Except this entire conversation started under the context that someone got annoyed by a bad player they were playing with. The only person not following the conversation is you, and it's funny how you say all this stuff about being nice to others while being incredibly passive-aggressive yourself. You're not fooling anybody.
.

I'm not much for being passive aggressive Kincard. If I want to be aggressive with someone, I won't be a passive about it.

I did find you blaming my attitude for the fact you can't find good players or that people are not receptive to your advice to be misplaced however. So I suggested it might be your attitude to blame instead. In other words: maybe you are just being too picky about how good that player should be. And maybe you are not giving them advice in a way that makes them want to consider it. But I pointed out that was just a guess. But in any case - if anyone was being passive aggressive in this conversation I would say it's you - trying to blame me for your troubles on the game simply because I think its silly to get annoyed at a warrior because they are using a shield.

And rather they are playing with this warrior using a shield or not - there is nothing to stop that person from simply leaving the group if the shield annoys them so much. So I don't understand what difference that makes. Either way, no one is forcing anyone to play with a warrior who is using a shield.

I'll end by saying something life has taught me: (because it may help you with your social predicaments on the game). Advice is best given when asked for.

Dale

10-16-2014, 02:25 AM

A WAR with a shield is as effective as a WAR equipping nothing at all in the offhand slot. Are people seriously encouraging this kind of play?

I'm not encouraging anything except for people not to get annoyed at once another over what I would consider silly reasons.

If a warrior wants to use a shield, then that's his/her choice. No reason to get annoyed at a person over it.

Afania

10-16-2014, 03:35 AM

Not everyone plays the game to be as mathematically effective at damage as possible Afania.

Yes, of course you can pay $12 a month and afk 24/7 watching youtube to waste sub, nobody would say a word about it.

You know that if I choose to be a doctor, my job is to save lives. If I don't want to save lives, then I change profession.

The point of playing a DD job, obviously is to do dmg. Equipping a shield on a DD job is choosing to do less dmg for no reason.

And again: no one is forcing anyone to play with a warrior who uses a shield. No one is wasting your time or making you play with other players you do not approve of. You are free to play with whoever you want and however you want.

I don't think who you pt with is relevant in this discussion though, you're sugar coating everything into "personal preference", which I don't agree with when it comes to MMO. There are little to no room for "personal preference" in MMO.

Afania

10-16-2014, 03:36 AM

I'm not encouraging anything except for people not to get annoyed at once another over what I would consider silly reasons.

If a warrior wants to use a shield, then that's his/her choice. No reason to get annoyed at a person over it.

It's also other's choice to feel annoyed though, if Malithar wants to feel annoyed at someone else, it's his freedom and choice.

Dale

10-16-2014, 04:01 AM

It's also other's choice to feel annoyed though, if Malithar wants to feel annoyed at someone else, it's his freedom and choice.

I never said he wasn't free or didn't have the choice to be annoyed by it. But I am also free with the choice to think it's silly to let such a small thing annoy you.

Dale

10-16-2014, 04:30 AM

Yes, of course you can pay $12 a month and afk 24/7 watching youtube to waste sub, nobody would say a word about it.

You know that if I choose to be a doctor, my job is to save lives. If I don't want to save lives, then I change profession.

The point of playing a DD job, obviously is to do dmg. Equipping a shield on a DD job is choosing to do less dmg for no reason.

I don't think who you pt with is relevant in this discussion though, you're sugar coating everything into "personal preference", which I don't agree with when it comes to MMO. There are little to no room for "personal preference" in MMO.

Of course it's relevant. You can't accuse someone of wasting your time if you don't even have to play with them. And that was the context of why I said that. So I'm not sugar coating anything. Just dispelling these ridiculous claims that because a warrior chooses to use a shield that somehow wastes another player's time. Which is absurd.

Also, comparing a doctor who doesn't want to save lives to a warrior who uses a sword and shield on a video game is just silly. And there is more to being a warrior than just doing the most damage possible to make Afania happy or they need to go change professions. Here is what ffxiclopedia says about warriors:

Specializing in the arts of battle, Warriors (WAR) are masters of all aspects of melee combat. Warrior is a very versatile melee job that can equip almost all of the types of weapons available in the game, and thus can fill a number of different roles in a party. Warriors have the ability to wear heavy armor and tank, protecting their comrades from enemy attacks. They are also masters of the powerhouse Axe and Great Axe weapons and are among the most powerful damage dealers in the game. Players starting the game as a Warrior receive an Onion Sword.

So there you have it. Cleary if SE meant for warriors never under any circumstance to ever use a sword and shield they would not have given them the combat skills Sword and Shield to begin with. Oh, and here is what they actually say on FFXI's main site about the warrior class just for irony.

Specializing in the arts of battle, warriors act as shields, protecting their comrades from the enemy attacks.

So even the word shield is in the Warrior's official description of the warrior class. I just thought that was funny. But anyway, my point is it's not against the warrior's profession to use a shield. So can we please stop with the craziness. If a warrior wants to use a shield, leave him be. It's not that insane...

Afania

10-17-2014, 12:03 AM

Of course it's relevant. You can't accuse someone of wasting your time if you don't even have to play with them. And that was the context of why I said that. So I'm not sugar coating anything. Just dispelling these ridiculous claims that because a warrior chooses to use a shield that somehow wastes another player's time. Which is absurd.

Also, comparing a doctor who doesn't want to save lives to a warrior who uses a sword and shield on a video game is just silly. And there is more to being a warrior than just doing the most damage possible to make Afania happy or they need to go change professions. Here is what ffxiclopedia says about warriors:

Specializing in the arts of battle, Warriors (WAR) are masters of all aspects of melee combat. Warrior is a very versatile melee job that can equip almost all of the types of weapons available in the game, and thus can fill a number of different roles in a party. Warriors have the ability to wear heavy armor and tank, protecting their comrades from enemy attacks. They are also masters of the powerhouse Axe and Great Axe weapons and are among the most powerful damage dealers in the game. Players starting the game as a Warrior receive an Onion Sword.

So there you have it. Cleary if SE meant for warriors never under any circumstance to ever use a sword and shield they would not have given them the combat skills Sword and Shield to begin with. Oh, and here is what they actually say on FFXI's main site about the warrior class just for irony.

Specializing in the arts of battle, warriors act as shields, protecting their comrades from the enemy attacks.

So even the word shield is in the Warrior's official description of the warrior class. I just thought that was funny. But anyway, my point is it's not against the warrior's profession to use a shield. So can we please stop with the craziness. If a warrior wants to use a shield, leave him be. It's not that insane...

SE's description is irrelevant to how the job can be played though. They can write anything they want, but if they want warrior to use a shield for real, they'd give WAR Ochain/aegis.

How player choose to play the job is mostly based on game design, if SE want X job to use an axe effectively, they'd give X job a powerful axe WS and high skill rank. "WAR shouldn't use a shield" isn't my personal choice nor preference, it's because SE made shield ineffective for WAR, they designed the game that way. Me(and the majority of the playerbase) just picked a "playstyle" based on SE's design. I find it funny that you continue to push the responsibility on Afania, for not letting other players wearing a shield on WAR. Maybe you should ask SE to let WAR wear a shield instead.

So yeah, SE can write something like "We want SMN to be a melee job" all they want, as long as they don't give SMN proper melee gears/JA, it can't be played as a melee job.

You can argue that "But SE gave WAR ability to equip a shield!" Unfortunately, letting X job wearing something doesn't automatically make it a valid play style.

I can equip Ark tachi on my BLU, it doesn't automatically change my BLU into a GK DD.

Afania

10-17-2014, 12:09 AM

I never said he wasn't free or didn't have the choice to be annoyed by it. But I am also free with the choice to think it's silly to let such a small thing annoy you.

Of course you're free to think that way, but you can also choose not to say it.

Dale

10-18-2014, 01:55 AM

SE's description is irrelevant to how the job can be played though. They can write anything they want, but if they want warrior to use a shield for real, they'd give WAR Ochain/aegis.

How player choose to play the job is mostly based on game design, if SE want X job to use an axe effectively, they'd give X job a powerful axe WS and high skill rank. "WAR shouldn't use a shield" isn't my personal choice nor preference, it's because SE made shield ineffective for WAR, they designed the game that way. Me(and the majority of the playerbase) just picked a "playstyle" based on SE's design. I find it funny that you continue to push the responsibility on Afania, for not letting other players wearing a shield on WAR. Maybe you should ask SE to let WAR wear a shield instead.

So yeah, SE can write something like "We want SMN to be a melee job" all they want, as long as they don't give SMN proper melee gears/JA, it can't be played as a melee job.

You can argue that "But SE gave WAR ability to equip a shield!" Unfortunately, letting X job wearing something doesn't automatically make it a valid play style.

I can equip Ark tachi on my BLU, it doesn't automatically change my BLU into a GK DD.

Just because something isn't the very best doesn't mean it can't work or get the job done. And since SE made the game and designed the actual job, they are in a better position to describe what it's actual intention is. So instead of arguing with me about it, you should be taking it up with SE. They are the ones who said it, not me.

But in any case, to imply unless you have an ochain or an aegis you aren't suppose to use a shield is pretty extreme. I know a lot of paladins who don't have one of these either. Does that mean paladins suck also if they use one of these lesser shields? You view everything through the very narrow prism of having to be the very best at something else you shouldn't do it. And this is exactly the kind of thinking I feel is destructive to MMORPG game play. Not all jobs are suppose to be very the best at something. Some are designed to be more versatile in nature and there is nothing wrong with that. And certainly doesn't mean they suck or aren't valid play styles as a result.

And your example of comparing a warrior who uses a sword and shield to a summoner who wants to be a melee job is inaccurate to put it mildly. When you offer such exaggerated comparisons as these it really makes me wonder if you are interested in having a reasonable discussion.

Dale

10-18-2014, 02:03 AM

Of course you're free to think that way, but you can also choose not to say it.

That's true. But that would kind of defeat my whole purpose of being in this forum if I chose not to give my opinions about things.

Part of my purpose on this forum is to attempt to broaden the perspective of people so players won't look down on or be annoyed by other players just because they play different jobs or in different ways. There needs to be a lot more live and let live in the MMORPGs generally, because it's approaching a very destructive tipping point that is quite frankly ruining the whole genre and reducing the gameplay to a boring comparison of numbers - rather the unique blend of many different and interesting individual play-styles as it should be.

Kincard

10-18-2014, 02:16 AM

Afania

10-18-2014, 02:24 AM

Just because something isn't the very best doesn't mean it can't work or get the job done. And since SE made the game and designed the actual job, they are in a better position to describe what it's actual intention is. So instead of arguing with me about it, you should be taking it up with SE. They are the ones who said it, not me.

But in any case, to imply unless you have an ochain or an aegis you aren't suppose to use a shield is pretty extreme. I know a lot of paladins who don't have one of these either. Does that mean paladins suck also if they use one of these lesser shields? You view everything through the very narrow prism of having to be the very best at something else you shouldn't do it. And this is exactly the kind of thinking I feel is destructive to MMORPG game play. Not all jobs are suppose to be very the best at something. Some are designed to be more versatile in nature and there is nothing wrong with that. And certainly doesn't mean they suck or aren't valid play styles as a result.

And your example of comparing a warrior who uses a sword and shield to a summoner who wants to be a melee job is silly. When you offer such exaggerated comparisons as this it really makes me wonder if you are really interested in having a reasonable discussion.

You don't get it, Warrior using a shield isn't "not the best", it's "almost equal to not using a shield". You seems to label everything into "elitist mentality" "wanna be the very best", but that's just not the case with a shield WAR.

I also fail to understand your logic, from what you've just said, you can accept the concept of "SMN shouldn't melee", but you can't accept concept of "WAR shouldn't melee", to a point that you believed it's an extreme comparison.

FYI, WAR has C+ rank shield skill, SMN has B rank staff skill, by SE's written description with skill lv, SMN is a better staff melee job than a shield WAR.

What's so exaggerate about comparing a melee SMN with a shield WAR, when a shield WAR is an even worse example than melee SMN?

To answer your question about Ochain/Aegisless PLD....PLD has access to Priwen, WAR doesn't. PLD has A+ shield skill, WAR doesn't. PLD has better defensive ability, WAR only gets defender.

WAR is designed to be a DD job, asking a DD to use a shield is just wasting the potential and not doing what the job supposed to do.

You kept bringing up "valid" playstyle over and over again....but valid playstyle is supposed to be a playstyle that's effective in certain situation.

For example, if you play RUN, you can choose to play offensively or defensively, defensively= tanking, offensively= do 60%~80% of dmg of SAM, with a lot higher survive-ability.

Both are "valid" playstyle in certain situation, because it's effective.

There are many other "valid" playstyle that's effective.....like SAM using ranged attack when they're weakened, COR can melee or /ra depending on situation, BLU can help cure/erase if mages d/c or not on par, all those are "effective" play-style that works.

If you insist that a shield WAR is a valid playstyle, name a specific situation that shield WAR works better than a GA WAR.

Don't just copy and paste some text from the website and tell everyone "we can play WAR this way", text has nothing to do with the content nor the game design.

It seems that you only believe WAR can use a shield, because you believe that I'm an elitist only aiming for the highest dmg potential, but that wasn't my point. WAR can turtle if they need to, they have many ways to turtle, but using a shield to turtle shouldn't be considered.

Dale

10-18-2014, 02:26 AM

I'm not going to have any "social troubles" in this game because I have enough people to play with that I'll never have to deal with bad PUGs if I don't want to. I was making the point that there are terrible players out there that have attitudes like yours, and act flippant whenever they're wasting other peoples' time and think they're in the right because "it's just a game". In case you're wondering, that's not me saying if you're a good player or not- I have no idea since I've never played with you. It's about this dispelling attitude people have that other peoples' time is suddenly less valuable when it's for an unimportant activity. That they act defensive about it if I try to give well-meaning advice is just the cherry on top- and since you're continuing to be passive aggressive (a term you don't seem to understand) about it, I should note I've helped many players through this way too, so I think I'll stick with my method of being a mostly no-nonsense sort of person.

Lastly, taking official blurbs for Warrior from back in 2003 or whatever isn't helping you prove anything. Rune Fencer was referred to as the "third" tanking job multiple times since its creation so it's obvious they've long since abandoned the idea of Warrior (and Beastmaster, since they tried that at one point) of being tanks other than for really outleveled content.

If you have no social troubles on the game then why were you complaining about them to me and blaming my attitude for them? I'm confused.

Anyway, I really don't understand why my opinion it's silly to be annoyed at a warrior for using a shield means is to blame for terrible players being unresponsive to your advice . And I have yet to see you give me a reason I can understand as to why that's the case. All you seem to be able to do is accuse me of being passive aggressive because I don't agree with you.

I've played with warriors who use shields that are good players. They weren't terrible at all.

And I was just using those exerts from SE's site and ffxiclopedia as examples. I wasn't really trying to prove anything beyond the fact that not everyone thinks the same way they do and they need to accept that and stop pushing their own opinions about how a job should be played onto everyone else as if it's the law of the land.

Dale

10-18-2014, 02:36 AM

You don't get it, Warrior using a shield isn't "not the best", it's "almost equal to not using a shield". You seems to label everything into "elitist mentality" "wanna be the very best", but that's just not the case with a shield WAR.

I also fail to understand your logic, from what you've just said, you can accept the concept of "SMN shouldn't melee", but you can't accept concept of "WAR shouldn't melee", to a point that you believed it's an extreme comparison.

FYI, WAR has C+ rank shield skill, SMN has B rank staff skill, by SE's written description with skill lv, SMN is a better staff melee job than a shield WAR.

What's so exaggerate about comparing a melee SMN with a shield WAR, when a shield WAR is an even worse example than melee SMN?

To answer your question about Ochain/Aegisless PLD....PLD has access to Priwen, WAR doesn't. PLD has A+ shield skill, WAR doesn't. PLD has better defensive ability, WAR only gets defender.

WAR is designed to be a DD job, asking a DD to use a shield is just wasting the potential and not doing what the job supposed to do.

You kept bringing up "valid" playstyle over and over again....but valid playstyle is supposed to be a playstyle that's effective in certain situation.

For example, if you play RUN, you can choose to play offensively or defensively, defensively= tanking, offensively= do 60%~80% of dmg of SAM, with a lot higher survive-ability.

Both are "valid" playstyle in certain situation, because it's effective.

There are many other "valid" playstyle that's effective.....like SAM using ranged attack when they're weakened, COR can melee or /ra depending on situation, BLU can help cure/erase if mages d/c or not on par, all those are "effective" play-style that works.

If you insist that a shield WAR is a valid playstyle, name a specific situation that shield WAR works better than a GA WAR.

Don't just copy and paste some text from the website and tell everyone "we can play WAR this way", text has nothing to do with the content nor the game design.

It seems that you only believe WAR can use a shield, because you believe that I'm an elitist only aiming for the highest dmg potential, but that wasn't my point. WAR can turtle if they need to, they have many ways to turtle, but using a shield to turtle shouldn't be considered.

There is more to being a melee job than having a weapon skill. Are you actually trying to suggest Summoner is designed to be a melee job in the same warrior is simply because they have a B staff skill and Warrior has a C shield skill? This is exactly the kind of reasoning I am talking about that makes me doubt you are interesting in having a serious discussion.

And I didn't even mention the word elitist once in that post you are quoting. So you are the one obsessing over this label. Not me.

The truth is your entire post makes my point for me and you don't even realize it. You keep saying give me one example where a Shield war works better than a GW war? Everything has to be better or the best else players shouldn't do it. That's the issue.

MMORPG gameplay was never meant to be about a comparison of numbers to see what way is best and everything else sucks and should not be done. And just because something isn't or may not be the best doesn't mean it is not a valid way to play.

I disagree with you. SE disagrees with you. ffxiclopedia disagrees with you. There is more to the warrior class than just using a great axe. They can be played in different ways. You need to just accept this simple fact and stop trying to push your own very limited view about how the job should be played on to everyone else.

Afania

10-18-2014, 02:37 AM

That's true. But that would kind of defeat my whole purpose of being in this forum if I chose not to give my opinions about things.

Part of my purpose on this forum is to attempt to broaden the perspective of people so players won't look down on or be annoyed by other players just because they play different jobs or in different ways. There needs to be a lot more live and let live in the MMORPGs generally, because it's approaching a very destructive tipping point that is quite frankly ruining the whole genre and reducing the gameplay to a boring comparison of numbers - rather the unique blend of many different and interesting individual play-styles as it should be.

You didn't broaden ppl's perspective, as I said in previous posts....I'm not against different playstyle, but the only way to make different playstyle work is to design the game that way.

I adapt different playstyle all the time, I've used like 11 different SJ on COR in my life, /WAR /WHM /BLM /RDM /RNG /SAM /NIN /DRG /BLU /SCH /DNC, I can probably name a few situational use for /SMN as well. I still use /WHM /DNC /DRG and /NIN pretty actively, others not so much. Every SJ is a completely different playstyle that's effective for certain situation, not all of them are about "the best dmg!" So it's certainly a biased opinion if you think I just want da best dmg with a narrow minded POV toward playstyle.

In all those shield WAR argument, you've never actually tell us WHY a WAR should use a shield, except "SE said so in 2003!" or "it's just a playstyle!"

Should I play BLU/MNK not equipping any weapon and tell everyone "I want to play BLU fighting bare fists like Kung Fu panda because that's my playstyle!"

That's more like role playing, not playstyle.

Dale

10-18-2014, 02:43 AM

You didn't broaden ppl's perspective, as I said in previous posts....I'm not against different playstyle, but the only way to make different playstyle work is to design the game that way.

I adapt different playstyle all the time, I've used like 11 different SJ on COR in my life, /WAR /WHM /BLM /RDM /RNG /SAM /NIN /DRG /BLU /SCH /DNC, I can probably name a few situation use for /SMN as well. I still use /WHM /DNC /DRG and /NIN pretty actively, others not so much. Every SJ is a completely different playstyle that's effective for certain situation, not all of them are about "the best dmg!" So it's certainly a biased opinion if you think I just want da best dmg with a narrow minded POV toward playstyle.

In all those shield WAR argument, you've never actually tell us WHY a WAR should use a shield, except "SE said so in 2003!" or "it's just a playstyle!"

Should I play BLU/MNK not equipping any weapon and tell everyone "I want to play BLU fighting bare fists like Kung Fu panda because that's my playstyle!"

That's more like role playing, instead of a playstyle.

MMORPGs are about Role Playing. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing game.

And if you can't even accept that a warrior may choose to use a shield and not be annoyed by it, then I maintain my original point that you are against different playstyles and need to learn to be more tolerant of other players.

Afania

10-18-2014, 02:44 AM

There is more to being a melee job than having a weapon skill. Are you actually trying to suggest Summoner is designed to be a melee job in the same warrior is simply because they have a B staff skill and Warrior has a C shield skill? This is exactly the kind of reasoning I am talking about that makes me doubt you are interesting in having a serious discussion.

And I didn't even mention the word elitist once in that post you are quoting. So you are the one obsessing over this label. Not me.

The truth is your entire post makes my point for me and you don't even realize it. You keep saying give me one example where a Shield war works better than a GW war? Everything has to be better or the best else players shouldn't do it. That's the issue.

MMORPG gameplay was never meant to be about a comparison of numbers to see what way is best and everything else sucks and should not be done. And just because something isn't or may not be the best doesn't mean it is not a valid way to play.

I disagree with you. SE disagrees with you. ffxiclopedia disagrees with you. There is more to the warrior class than just using a great axe. They can be played in different ways. You need to just accept this simple fact and stop trying to push your own very limited view about how the job should be played on to everyone else.

SE didn't disagree with me, lol. Cuz if they did, they'd do so with game design, by making a shield WAR more effective.

There's also a lot more than using a shield effectively than writing a wall of text on ffxiclopedia. It seems that you still insist that WAR should use a shield because the text said so, instead of actually telling me why a WAR should.

I suppose if I hack into ffxiclopedia website and change the description of SMN into "A melee mage fighting with avatars", you'd agree that SMN should be a melee job, because the text said so.

WAR has other weapon options, such as GS, axe, or even club. Depending on situation, there's a reason to use those options.

You still fail to tell us a valid reason for a WAR to use a shield though, except "MMO shouldn't be about what's better"

So what IS better in a MMO? If you don't agree with me, you tell me. Don't just deny everyone else's opinion.

Dale

10-18-2014, 02:47 AM

SE didn't disagree with me, lol. Cuz if they did, they'd do so with game design, by making a shield WAR more effective. (snip)

It seems that you still insist that WAR should use a shield because the text said so, instead of actually telling me why a WAR should.

But they do disagree with you. If SE never intended the warrior to use a shield under any circumstance they would not have given them sword and shield combat skills along with swords and shields they can equip and use.

And I never insisted that a warrior should use a shield. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I don't tell other players how they should play like you. I just said it's silly to be annoyed by a warrior simply because they do choose to use a shield.

Afania

10-18-2014, 02:49 AM

MMORPGs are about Role Playing. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing game.

And if you can't even accept that a warrior may choose to use a shield and not be annoyed by it, then I maintain my original point that you are against different playstyles and need to learn to be more tolerant of other players.

I'm not against role playing in a MMORPG, but role playing is not the same as playstyle.

I agree that role playing is a legit reason to use a shield on WAR, yes.

But I don't agree that it's a "playstyle", no.

You need to see the difference between a playstyle(a way to play the job that's effective and produce a noticeable result) and role playing.

Also, I'm not against players role playing, but they shouldn't join other ppl's event if they want to role play, that's the point. The current game content in FFXI mostly don't design for role playing gameplay.

If ppl want to role play, they should ask SE to design contents/events that reward players role play, instead of complaining about the community "only want to be the best". The community just play the game as intended.

Afania

10-18-2014, 02:53 AM

But they do disagree with you. If SE never intended the warrior to use a shield under any circumstance they would not have given them sword and shield combat skills along with swords and shields they can equip and use.

And I never insisted that a warrior should use a shield. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I don't tell other players how they should play like you. I just said it's silly to be annoyed by a warrior simply because they do choose to use a shield.

SE gave my BLU GK access via ark tachi as well, I suppose that means SE wants BLU to use a GK?

If SE really want WAR to use a shield, they'd do more than letting them to wear a shield. They'd make a shield WAR a lot more effective as a tank.

I don't tell others how they should play, I only point out mathematically effective way to play certain jobs. Ultimately, it's other ppl's freedom to choose a less effective way.

However, I can't do anything to change certain playstyle from ineffective to effective. Only SE can do that.

Dale

10-18-2014, 02:58 AM

I'm not against role playing in a MMORPG, but role playing is not the same as playstyle.

I agree that role playing is a legit reason to use a shield on WAR, yes.

But I don't agree that it's a "playstyle", no.

You need to see the difference between a playstyle(a way to play the job that's effective and produce a noticeable result) and role playing.

Also, I'm not against players role playing, but they shouldn't join other ppl's event if they want to role play, that's the point. The current game content in FFXI mostly don't design for role playing gameplay.

If ppl want to role play, they should ask SE to design contents/events that reward players role play, instead of complaining about the community "only want to be the best". The community just play the game as intended.

Again: if SE never intended for Warrior to use a sword and shield they would have never given them sword and shield combat skills and Swords and Shields they can use.

Warriors are intended to be a versatile melee job capable of using many different weapons. That is how SE designed them. This opinion of yours that they should only use Great Axes else never join a group or do any content outside of what you refer to as role playing is just your own narrow opinion.

If you don't want to play with a warrior who uses a shield then don't. No one is forcing you to. But there is no good reason to get annoyed at those who do.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:00 AM

SE gave my BLU GK access via ark tachi as well, I suppose that means SE wants BLU to use a GK?

If SE really want WAR to use a shield, they'd do more than letting them to wear a shield. They'd make a shield WAR a lot more effective as a tank.

I don't tell others how they should play, I only point out mathematically effective way to play certain jobs. Ultimately, it's other ppl's freedom to choose a less effective way.

However, I can't do anything to change certain playstyle from ineffective to effective. Only SE can do that.

I've played with some good warrior tanks. Just the fact you haven't, doesn't mean they aren't out there or that SE never meant for them to ever play as a tank. Perhaps if you were more tolerant of who you play with you would see a greater variety of players.

And its good you don't tell others how they should play. Though I should point out you have been doing exactly that through out this entire discussion.

And if you want to use a great katana on your BLU go for it. I won't hold it against you.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:09 AM

Again: if SE never intended for Warrior to use a sword and shield they would have never given them sword and shield combat skills and Swords and Shields they can use.

Can you answer my last question first? Lol. SE also gave my BLU Ark Tachi access, does that means SE want BLU to use a GK?

I've played with some good warrior tanks. Just the fact you haven't, doesn't mean they aren't out there or that SE never meant for them to ever play as a tank. Perhaps if you were more tolerant of who you play with you would see a greater variety of players.

And its good you don't tell others how they should play. Though I should point out you have been doing exactly that through out this entire discussion.

I've played with MNK tank, BLU tank, NIN tank, SAM tank, and pretty much every DD job tanking stuff without a shield, so?

Of course WAR can tank, but WAR tanking without a shield can probably produce similar or better end result as not using a shield, that's my point.

Yes I've play with WAR tank, without a shield as well. Anything a WAR can tank with a shield, they can probably tank better without it. Tanking is more than just turtle.

I also don't understand why you insist that I'm the one telling how others to play the job. I don't work for SE. If I work for SE, I'd actually want to make shield WAR more effective.

Again, if you insist that shield war is a valid play style, perhaps you should ask your friend to reply here and explain why, cuz atm I feel this discussion isn't going anywhere.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:16 AM

Can you answer my last question first? Lol. SE also gave my BLU Ark Tachi access, does that means SE want BLU to use a GK?

I've played with MNK tank, BLU tank, NIN tank, SAM tank, and pretty much every DD job tanking stuff without a shield, so?

Of course WAR can tank, but WAR tanking without a shield can probably produce similar or better end result as not using a shield, that's my point.

Yes I've play with WAR tank, without a shield as well. Anything a WAR can tank with a shield, they can probably tank better without it.

I also don't understand why you insist that I'm the one telling how others to play the job. I don't work for SE. If I work for SE, I'd actually want to make shield WAR more effective.

I insist you are doing that because you said warriors who use a shield should not join any groups or do any content outside of role playing. And if that isn't telling other people how they should play their job then I don't know what would be.

I'm not going to answer your questions about Blue Mage because I don't play Blue mage and don't even know what Ark Tachi is. I already said if you wanted to try out Great Katana be my guest. I won't hold it against you. So I don't know what more you want from me about this Great Katana business.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:17 AM

I've played with some good warrior tanks. Just the fact you haven't, doesn't mean they aren't out there or that SE never meant for them to ever play as a tank. Perhaps if you were more tolerant of who you play with you would see a greater variety of players.

And its good you don't tell others how they should play. Though I should point out you have been doing exactly that through out this entire discussion.

And if you want to use a great katana on your BLU go for it. I won't hold it against you.

Oh and btw, idk exactly what's your opinion about shield WAR anymore.

Are you trying to argue that shield WAR is viable because of role playing reason? If yes then we have nothing to argue here, we both agree that role playing is a valid reason to use a shield WAR, and we both agree that role playing shouldn't be about math and what's better.

But they you said "I've seen good WAR tanks"(probably with a shield). So it's back to "what's better" argument again. Can you filter out the goal of your argument first?

If you want to argue "what setup is better for WAR tank", explain how shield WAR is a better tank than using other weapons.

If you don't want to argue about what's better due to role playing reason, then no point to continue.

detlef

10-18-2014, 03:22 AM

Just to make it even more ridiculous, would you mind defending the idea of THF wielding a dagger and a shield? I want to take this to the next level.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:22 AM

Oh and btw, idk exactly what's your opinion about shield WAR anymore.

Are you trying to argue that shield WAR is viable because of role playing reason? If yes then we have nothing to argue here, we both agree that role playing is a valid reason to use a shield WAR, and we both agree that role playing shouldn't be about math and what's better.

But they you said "I've seen good WAR tanks"(probably with a shield). So it's back to "what's better" argument again. Can you filter out the goal of your argument first?

If you want to argue "what setup is better for WAR tank", explain how shield WAR is a better tank than using other weapons.

If you don't want to argue about what's better due to role playing reason, then no point to continue.

Just because I've played with good warrior tanks doesn't mean I am saying they are better than other types of warriors. Not all of us are constantly trying to compare who is better than who like you are.

I recognize that warriors can be good playing in many different ways. I've played with good Great Axe warriors. I've played with good Sword and Board warriors. I could care less who is better. All I care about is if I'm having fun and winning - which I was in both cases.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:23 AM

I insist you are doing that because you said warriors who use a shield should not join any groups or do any content outside of role playing. And if that isn't telling other people how they should play their job then I don't know what would be.

I'm not going to answer your questions about Blue Mage because I don't play Blue mage and don't even know what Ark Tachi is. I already said if you wanted to try out Great Katana be my guest. I won't hold it against you. So I don't know what more you want from me about this Great Katana business.

What's wrong with saying a setup for role playing shouldn't join a content that's obviously designed for none role players? Of course if your friends can accept a role player, sure they can join them.

But if ppl don't want to raid with a role player, then it's perfectly logical. Role playing by nature, is very different from raid. Raid is about beating stuff and over coming challenge, role playing is about playing as a character you want to be.

They're just....different. If the game content is designed for ppl to beat and overcome challenge, then you can't expect everyone be a character they want to be. If the community try to overcome challenge because the content was designed that way, it's not their fault for not allowing others to be a character they want to be.

Ark tachi is a GK equip-able by all jobs. There are a lot of weapons that can be equipped by certain job, that doesn't mean it's effective.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:23 AM

Just to make it even more ridiculous, would you mind defending the idea of THF wielding a dagger and a shield? I want to take this to the next level.

The only thing that is truly ridiculous in this conversation is people letting the weapon someone else is using on a video game annoy them so much.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:25 AM

What's wrong with saying a setup for role playing shouldn't join a content that's obviously designed for none role players? Of course if your friends can accept a role player, sure they can join them.

But if ppl don't want to raid with a role player, then it's perfectly logical. Role playing by nature, is very different from raid. Raid is about beating stuff and over coming challenge, role playing is about playing as a character you want to be.

They're just....different. If the game content is designed for ppl to beat and overcome challenge, then you can't expect everyone be a character they want to be. If the community try to overcome challenge because the content was designed that way, it's not their fault for not allowing others to be a character they want to be.

Ark tachi is a GK equip-able by all jobs. There are a lot of weapons that can be equipped by certain job, that doesn't mean it's effective.

Yes, and warriors who use shields are capable of overcoming and beating content on this game. So I fail to understand your point.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:30 AM

Just because I've played with good warrior tanks doesn't mean I am saying they are better than other types of warriors. Not all of us are constantly trying to compare who is better than who like you are.

I recognize that warriors can be good playing in many different ways. I've played with good Great Axe warriors. I've played with good Sword and Board warriors. I could care less who is better. All I care about is if I'm having fun and winning - which I was in both cases.

You're trying to tell others how they can play the game by blaming the community for not accepting a shield WAR though. Which is the same thing.

It seems that you have a lofty goal to "change" the nature of MMO because you believe it's the community that shaped the MMO nowadays, unfortunately it's the other way around.

Players are just sheeps, they simply follow the goals set by the game designer.

If the game designer wants the player to use a shield WAR, just make shield WAR effective like a shield PLD. You'd see everyone and their mother /shouting for a shield WAR in town.

There's nothing you can do to change the community, unless you're the game designer. Shield WAR will always be considered ineffective even if you post 100 pages of stuff here, criticizing anyone with a different opinion.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:33 AM

You're trying to tell others how they can play the game by blaming the community for not accepting a shield WAR though. Which is the same thing.

.

No I'm not. I have said over and over again through-out this thread that if you don't want to play with a Warrior who uses a shield then I recognize and support your right not to. But I would never say to someone who doesn't play the way I think they should that they should never join any groups or do any content outside of role playing. That is just a ______ thing to say.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:34 AM

Yes, and warriors who use shields are capable of overcoming and beating content on this game. So I fail to understand your point.

And you can't expect everyone in the community to accept a leech in their pt spot. Why do you feel like the need to criticize others for being intolerant toward a shield WAR when you're intolerant toward others yourself?

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:37 AM

No I'm not. I have said over and over again through-out this thread that if you don't want to play with a Warrior who uses a shield then I recognize and support your right not to. But I would never say to someone who doesn't play the way I think they should that they should never join any groups or do any content outside of role playing. That is just a ______ thing to say.

They shouldn't, unless they let everyone know that their WAR only use a shield and let the leader make the decision.

It's downright disrespectful to join a PUG without letting the leader know about shield WAR and role playing though.

It's pretty self centered to think "I wanna play as a shield WAR cuz I love role playing, so everyone else should tolerate my WAR even if I'm slowing down the entire pt"

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:37 AM

And you can't expect everyone in the community to accept a leech in their pt spot. Why do you feel like the need to criticize others for being intolerant toward a shield WAR when you're intolerant toward others yourself?

Just because someone doesn't play the way you think they should does not make them a leech. Just to get that out of the way for starters.

And I'm intolerant against intolerance. I suppose that would be a good way to say it.

If you don't want to play with a warrior with a shield then don't play with them. Simple as that. And I got no issues with you choosing who you play with. But if you want to criticize someone just because they play in a different way then you think they should yes, I will criticize you for that.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:45 AM

Only I have right to be intolerate toward the others

I don't agree with your first statement. If you can clear the content in 20 min with proper DD aiming for highest dmg output, and ended up clearing the content in 40 min cuz your DD want to role play with a shield, they're wasting everyone else's time.

If everyone else agreed that "We're ok with 40 min clear", then I have np with that.

If one person doesn't want to spend 40 min to clear, then it's disrespectful to waste his/her time because of role play.

Everyone have their right to enjoy the game with their $12 a month.

Some ppl have fun with shield WAR role playing, this is understandable.

Some ppl can't have fun by spending more time in a content, that is their right.

You can't take away other ppl's right to enjoy the game because you enjoy the game that way.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:47 AM

Just because someone doesn't play the way you think they should does not make them a leech. Just to get that out of the way for starters.

And I'm intolerant against intolerance. I suppose that would be a good way to say it.

If you don't want to play with a warrior with a shield then don't play with them. Simple as that. And I got no issues with you choosing who you play with. But if you want to criticize someone just because they play in a different way then you think they should yes, I will criticize you for that.

I don't criticize someone for playing as a shield WAR, but I WILL criticize anyone joining a pt on shield WAR without everyone else's consent.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:47 AM

They shouldn't, unless they let everyone know that their WAR only use a shield and let the leader make the decision.

It's downright disrespectful to join a PUG without letting the leader know about shield WAR and role playing though.

It's pretty self centered to think "I wanna play as a shield WAR cuz I love role playing, so everyone else should tolerate my WAR even if I'm slowing down the entire pt"

That's your opinion that a warrior who uses a shield is just role playing and slowing down the entire party. As I've said, I've played with some very good warriors who use a shield. So I just don't agree with you. And to claim a warrior is being self-centered for using a shield is one of the silliest things you've said yet. And that is saying something.

And I've said over and over and over again that a group leader doesn't have to play with a warrior who uses a shield if they do not want to. I don't know how many times I must say this before it sinks in. I am not advocating that anyone be forced to play with anyone else.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:49 AM

That's your opinion that a warrior who uses a shield is just role playing and slowing down the entire party. As I've said, I've played with some very good warriors who use a shield. So I just don't agree with you. And to claim a warrior is being self-centered for using a shield is one of the silliest things you've said yet. And that is saying something.

And I've said over and over and over again that a group leader doesn't have to play with a warrior who uses a shield if they do not want to. I don't know how many times I must say this before it sinks in. I am not advocating that anyone be forced to play with anyone else.

I didn't say "WAR is self centered for using a shield", I only said "WAR is self centered for using a shield AND demand everyone else to tolerate it". Stop putting words in my mouth.

Also, my "opinion" toward a shield WAR isn't "opinion" nor preference, I said that 100 times.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:49 AM

I don't criticize someone for playing as a shield WAR, but I WILL criticize anyone joining a pt on shield WAR without everyone else's consent.

Well you certainly don't give that impression when you say a shield warrior should never do any content outside of role playing...

Bottom line is I would be more than happy to play with a warrior who uses a shield. It's not a valid reason to criticize someone. At least not in my opinion. But if you or your party members for what ever reasons don't want to group with one, that is entirely your right and I got no beef with that.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:50 AM

I didn't say "WAR is self centered for using a shield", I only said "WAR is self centered for using a shield AND demand everyone else to tolerate it". Stop putting words in my mouth.

Also, my "opinion" toward a shield WAR isn't "opinion" nor preference, I said that 100 times.

I'm not putting words in your mouth because you assume when a warrior uses a shield they are automatically a leech who is slowing down the party. So it amounts to the same thing. So I stand by what I said.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:55 AM

Well you certainly don't give that impression when you say a shield warrior should never do any content outside of role playing...

Bottom line is I would be more than happy to play with a warrior who uses a shield. It's not a valid reason to criticize someone. But if you or your party members for what ever reasons don't want to group with one, that is entirely your right and I got no beef with that.

What else do you expect? I can't change your opinion about a shield WAR, nor have interest to. I did point out it's an ineffective way to play the game math wise, but if you don't accept it then it's none of my business. It's your money and time after all.

Also it seems that you often like to force your own opinion on others and sugarcoat it into "justice" without realizing it. You're allowed to criticize others for disapproving shield WAR, you're allowed to be intolerant toward others because they're intolerant. And you do all that because everyone else is "narrowed minded", without realizing that you're not all that different.

It seems that you're no different from the ppl you disapprove of, IMO.

Afania

10-18-2014, 03:57 AM

I'm not putting words in your mouth because you assume when a warrior uses a shield they are automatically a leech who is slowing down the party. So it amounts to the same thing. So I stand by what I said.

A shield WAR slows down pt, which is a fact, it's not just an opinion. Try to do an event with a GA WAR, then do it again with a shield WAR, see which one clear the content faster.

You can't tell the difference between a fact and opinion?

"You suck" or "I don't like you" is an opinion.

"Using a shield on WAR would clear content slower" is a fact.

Dale

10-18-2014, 03:58 AM

What else do you expect? I can't change your opinion about a shield WAR, nor have interest to. I did point out it's an ineffective way to play the game math wise, but if you don't accept it then it's none of my business. It's your money and time after all.

Also it seems that you often like to force your own opinion on others and sugarcoat it into "justice" without realizing it. You're allowed to criticize others for disapproving shield WAR, you're allowed to be intolerant toward others because they're intolerant. And you do all that because everyone else is "narrowed minded", without realizing that you're not all that different.

It seems that you're no different from the ppl you disapprove of, IMO.

No because I recognize your right not to group with a shield warrior if you don't want to. So it's not nearly the same as you thinking they have no right to be in a group at all because of how they play.

I only ask that you not criticize them for it or suggest they should never join any content outside of role playing because you view them as leeches...

And I don't really think that's too much to ask.

Afania

10-18-2014, 04:03 AM

No because I recognize your right not to group with a shield warrior if you don't want to. So it's not nearly the same as you thinking they have no right to be in a group at all because of how they play.

They only have right if others accept them, only the pt member can give them right to be in their group, so that's the same....I don't know what kind of point you're trying to make anymore.

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:04 AM

A shield WAR slows down pt, which is a fact, it's not just an opinion. Try to do an event with a GA WAR, then do it again with a shield WAR, see which one clear the content faster.

You can't tell the difference between a fact and opinion?

"You suck" or "I don't like you" is an opinion.

"Using a shield on WAR would clear content slower" is a fact.

No it isn't a fact. It would depend on the circumstance. For example, my RDM and a WAR with a shield could certainly clear content faster than if I was just on my RDM. You act as if a warrior is a drag on a group under any circumstance just because he may use a shield. Which is just not the case.

You assume and compare all situations with the most ideal set ups to clear something the fastest and them dismiss anyone who doesn't fit into that dream scenario. And then for some reason you confuse this with fact.

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:05 AM

They only have right if others accept them, only the pt member can give them right to be in their group, so that's the same....I don't know what kind of point you're trying to make anymore.

And that's where you're wrong. A player's right to play their job as they wish is not based on rather you accept them or not. That is the point I'm trying to make.

If don't want to group with them fine. Don't group with them. But don't say things like that player shouldn't join any content other than role playing simply because you don't approve of them.

Afania

10-18-2014, 04:06 AM

No it isn't a fact. It would depend on the circumstance. For example, my RDM and a WAR with a shield could certainly clear content faster than if I was just on my RDM. You act as if a warrior is a drag on a group under any circumstance just because he may use a shield. Which is just not the case.

You assume and compare all situations with the most ideal set ups to clear something the fastest and them dismiss anyone who doesn't fit into that dream scenario. And then for some reason you confuse this with fact.

What I mean was, if you're duoing something with a RDM and a WAR, you will clear the content faster if the WAR use GA. If the WAR change to a shield, they you'd kill slower and clear the content slower.

How is it not a fact that WAR with a GA clear the content faster than a shield WAR?

Afania

10-18-2014, 04:09 AM

And that's where you're wrong. A player's right to play their job as they wish is not based on rather you accept them or not. That is the point I'm trying to make.

If don't want to group with them fine. Don't group with them. But don't say things like that player shouldn't join any content other than role playing simply because you don't approve of them.

Except this isn't just me? There are way more players that's not interested in clearing the content in 40 min instead of 20.

I also find it silly that you continue to say "Afania don't approve a shield WAR". When's the last time you see someone /shouting for a shield WAR?

Oh and btw, this is a MMORPG with group content, if you think ppl really have right to choose job out of their own free will, you're wrong. What job you can play in this game is mostly based on the other's approval, this applies to more than just shield WAR.

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:11 AM

What I mean was, if you're duoing something with a RDM and a WAR, you will clear the content faster if the WAR use GA. If the WAR change to a shield, they you'd kill slower and clear the content slower.

How is it not a fact that WAR with a GA clear the content faster than a shield WAR?

It is likely that a Warrior with a GA would clear content faster than a warrior wearing a shield. Yes. But that isn't what you said. And that doesn't mean a warrior with a shield is always going to be a leech and slow down a party.

Again: you assume the ideal job set up to defeat content the quickest is always present and use this fantasy to assume other jobs and play styles will be a detriment to the group. Which isn't even close to being true and certainly isn't a fact.

Afania

10-18-2014, 04:12 AM

Afania

10-18-2014, 04:15 AM

It is likely that a Warrior with a GA would clear content faster than a warrior wearing a shield. Yes. But that isn't what you said. And that doesn't mean a warrior with a shield is always going to be a leech and slow down a party.

Again: you assume the ideal job set up to defeat content the quickest is always present and use this fantasy to assume other jobs and play styles will be a detriment to the group. Which isn't even close to being true and certainly isn't a fact.

After 5 pages of argument, you still failed to explain HOW a shield WAR is an effective playstyle, except "My friend's shield WAR is good". Not convincing at all.

Did you notice that you're the only one advocating "Shield WAR won't slow down the group" in this entire thread? If your opinion is correct, I'd see more players supporting your opinion about WAR using a shield.

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:18 AM

Oh and btw, this is a MMORPG with group content, if you think ppl really have right to choose job out of their own free will, you're wrong. What job you can play in this game is mostly based on the other's approval, this applies to more than just shield WAR.

I hope you do not really believe this. Because if you think what job I play on this game is based on your approval or anyone's else's for that matter you are more mistaken than even I thought.

And I refer to you as Afania because that is your name and who I am talking to you. You aren't some entity who speaks for the greater community. Me or none of my friends would have any problems playing with a shield warrior so long as they played well and worked as a team. Not everyone thinks as you do. And the majority opinion is often the silent one, so please don't try and use shouts in Jueno as some evidence that your opinions are somehow more important than mine.

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:20 AM

After 5 pages of argument, you still failed to explain HOW a shield WAR is an effective playstyle, except "My friend's shield WAR is good". Not convincing at all.

Did you notice that you're the only one advocating "Shield WAR won't slow down the group" in this entire thread? If your opinion is correct, I'd see more players supporting your opinion about WAR using a shield.

I failed to do it because I am not even trying to do that. I was never trying to argue why this play style or that is more or less effective. I don't even play warrior.

My purpose in this thread was to tell players not to get annoyed at others simply because they play in different ways.

Afania

10-18-2014, 04:20 AM

I hope you do not really believe this. Because if you think what job I play on this game is based on your approval or anyone's else's for that matter you are more mistaken than even I thought.

And I refer to you as Afania because that is your name and who I am talking to you. You aren't some entity who speaks for the greater community. Me and none of my friends would have no problems playing with a shield warrior so long as they played well and worked as a team. Not everyone thinks as you do. And the majority opinion is often the silent one, so please don't try and use shouts in Jueno as some evidence that your opinions are somehow more important than mine.

Your ability to twist the meaning of my words is amazing. I said "other's approval", it means more than just ME.

Try to log on and join a pt on a shield WAR that's not made by Afania, do that for 1 month, see if PUG leaders start to /blist you.

I didn't say your opinion isn't important, I only point out that you're the minority.

Why I know it's minority? Cuz I know majority of the PUG leader/event leader on my server, afaik none of them would make a DD pt full of shield WAR.

If shield WAR is a high demand job in this game, I wouldn't even argue about this topic for 5 pages. I'd just say "Yes, shield war is amazing, we should just use a shield on a WAR" and end this discussion.

detlef

10-18-2014, 04:23 AM

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:24 AM

Anyways, at this point of time I don't even know what point you're trying to make anymore, go ahead and enjoy playing with a shield WAR! In reality they won't get invited to PUG most of the time unless their friends enjoys clearing the content slower with them!

I could really care less who PUGS invite or who they don't. And I will enjoy playing with shield warriors :) Because I can appreciate others rather they are the very best at something or not. And if it means it takes me a couple more minutes to defeat something, I think I will live.

Afania

10-18-2014, 04:24 AM

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:26 AM

Your ability to twist the meaning of my words is amazing. I said "other's approval", it means more than just ME.

Try to log on and join a pt on a shield WAR that's not made by Afania, do that for 1 month, see if PUG leaders start to /blist you.

I didn't say your opinion isn't important, I only point out that you're the minority.

Why I know it's minority? Cuz I know majority of the PUG leader/event leader on my server, afaik none of them would make a DD pt full of shield WAR.

If shield WAR is a high demand job in this game, I wouldn't even argue about this topic for 5 pages. I'd just say "Yes, shield war is amazing, we should just use a shield on a WAR and end this discussion"

And your ability to twist my words is equally amazing because I said if you think what job I play on this game is based on your approval or anyone's else's for that matter you are more mistaken than even I thought.

And you don't have to say shield warriors are amazing. Simply not be annoyed by them or say they shouldn't join any content outside of role-playing and that would suffice.

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:28 AM

This one time, we had a shield WAR in our PT and despite him performing worse than he should have (through his own choice), everybody else in the PT stepped up and performed better than they should have had to and we still won. It took longer, hate was shakier, and I don't think he even actually blocked anything but it just goes to show that 5 other good players can allow the 6th to roleplay.

So what. I've played with bad Great Axe warriors also. Does that mean I should go around painting all other GA warriors with the same brush? Of course not.

It's best to judge players on an individual basis and not assume things about them.

Afania

10-18-2014, 04:34 AM

And your ability to twist my words is equally amazing because I said if you think what job I play on this game is based on your approval or anyone's else's for that matter you are more mistaken than even I thought.

And you don't have to say shield warriors are amazing. Simply not be annoyed by them and that would suffice.

You can't change other's emotion nor POV toward the others though, it's too much to expect everyone else not to be annoyed by a shield WAR.

I agree that it's disrespectful to talk shit about others, but you can't control how you really think.

If I see a shield WAR, of course I'd have certain POV toward it that's not exactly positive, I may not say it in /p chat, but there's nothing we can do to change that.

This is just human nature, ppl tend to have opinion toward the others, sometimes it can be negative, the difference is whether they say it or not.

Also, since this game is a MMORPG, I don't agree with your opinion about jobs. Of course you can insist to play the job in certain way, you'd just have to make friends or tolerate less efficient run. Since the game punishes the player playing the job in certain way by making them spending more time killing stuff or making friends, players don't have free will to choose how they want to play in this game.

detlef

10-18-2014, 04:40 AM

So what. I've played with bad Great Axe warriors also. Does that mean I should go around painting all other GA warriors with the same brush? Of course not.

It's best to judge players on an individual basis and not assume things about them.Now you're judging the player, not the gear. This is solely a gear issue. If you take a player with an axe and a shield and give that same player a greataxe instead, he will perform better. Feel free to continue defending roleplaying if you want, however. That's the only way your argument holds any water.

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:48 AM

You can't change other's emotion nor POV toward the others though, it's too much to expect everyone else not to be annoyed by a shield WAR.

I agree that it's disrespectful to talk shit about others, but you can't control how you really think.

If I see a shield WAR, of course I'd have certain POV toward it that's not exactly positive, I may not say it in /p chat, but there's nothing we can do to change that.

This is just human nature, ppl tend to have opinion toward the others, sometimes it can be negative, the difference is whether they say it or not.

Also, since this game is a MMORPG, I don't agree with your opinion about jobs. Of course you can insist to play the job in certain way, you'd just have to make friends or tolerate less efficient run. Since the game punishes the player playing the job in certain way by making them spending more time killing stuff or making friends, players don't have free will to choose how they want to play in this game.

But it's not the game that punishes players for playing jobs in certain ways. Players like you do. I hate to be blunt about that, but it's just the truth. And players can simply ignore these types of players and play the game as they want. So yes, they do have free will - and can be successful in the process so long as they don't try anything absurd that goes against the intended game design.

So it's very possible to complete the content on this game using a variety of different jobs and play-styles. The fact some players can't tolerate a less efficient run and seek to exclude everyone but a select few based on this obsession to clear everything as fast as possible doesn't mean the game itself does. That's a very important distinction.

Dale

10-18-2014, 04:50 AM

Now you're judging the player, not the gear. This is solely a gear issue. If you take a player with an axe and a shield and give that same player a greataxe instead, he will perform better. Feel free to continue defending roleplaying if you want, however. That's the only way your argument holds any water.

My post to you had nothing to do with gear or who would perform better. It was just advice not to judge players based on your experiences with other players.

Afania

10-18-2014, 04:54 AM

But it's not the game that punishes players for playing jobs in certain ways. Players like you do. I hate to be blunt about that, but it's just the truth. And players can simply ignore these types of players and play the game as they want. So yes, they do have free will - and can be successful in the process so long as they don't try anything absurd that goes against the intended game design.

So it's very possible to complete the content on this game using a variety of different jobs and play-styles. The fact some players can't tolerate a less efficient run and seek to exclude everyone but a select few based on this obsession to clear everything as fast as possible doesn't mean the game itself does. That's a very important distinction.

I find it funny that you're saying Afania is the main culprit that made the shield WAR kills stuff slower.

If I play shield WAR and do yorcia delve 6 NM run, I'd finish it slower.

Even if I made everyone on the server to invite my shield WAR, it doesn't change the fact that a shield WAR kills 6 NM slower.

No matter how hard I try, I can't change the game mechanic, it_just_kills_slower.

It doesn't matter if I get invite or not, the game simply punishes anyone for playing WAR with a shield, cuz the formula determining the dmg output is lower if the player equip a shield.

So why it's player's fault that role players got punished? Obviously it's the game mechanic and the formula that's punishing anyone trying to equip a shield on their WAR.

So no, free will doesn't exist in this game. My definition of free will means "free to make choices with 0 sacrifice". In FFXI if I want to play a shield WAR, I sacrifice my time, and 5 other pt member's time with slower kill speed.

Dale

10-18-2014, 05:06 AM

I find it funny that you're saying Afania is the main culprit that made the shield WAR kills stuff slower.

If I play shield WAR and do yorcia delve 6 NM run, I'd finish it slower.

Even if I made everyone on the server to invite my shield WAR, it doesn't change the fact that a shield WAR kills 6 NM slower.

No matter how hard I try, I can't change the game mechanic, it_just_kills_slower.

It doesn't matter if I get invite or not, the game simply punishes me if I want to play WAR with a shield, cuz the formula determining the dmg output is lower if I equip a shield.

So why it's player's fault that role players got punished?

I didn't say you personally were the main culprit. I said players like you were. Those who are obsessed with spread sheets and dps and completing content as quickly as possible and think any job that doesn't contribute to that aim sucks and is just a leech and slows the party down.

Not all of us are care if something takes a couple more minutes to complete. We play MMORPGs to have fun and create an individualized character we enjoy playing. And players can accomplish this goal while still having success in the game. That was my point.

So again: it's not the game that punishes other players. It's players like you who for some reason expect the rest of us to play the game for the same reasons you do else you refuse to group with us. Which is your right. And to be honest I don't want to group with players with such a mentality anyway. I was just correcting you when you say it's the game that punishes players for not being as " efficient " as possible. Because it's not. The game design is solid and allows for all kinds of different play-styles to succeed.

Afania

10-18-2014, 05:09 AM

I didn't say you personally were the main culprit. I said players like you were. Those who are obsessed with spread sheets and dps and completing content as quickly as possible and think any job that doesn't contribute to that aim sucks and is just a leech and slows the party down.

Not all of us are care if something takes a couple more minutes to complete. We play MMORPGs to have fun and create an individualized character we enjoy playing. And players can accomplish this goal while still having success in the game. That was my point.

So again: it's not the game that punishes other players. It's players like you who for some reason expect the rest of us to play the game for the same reasons you do else you refuse to group with us. Which is your right. And to be honest I don't want to group with players with such a mentality anyway. I was just correcting you when you say it's the game that punishes players for not being as efficient as possible. Because it's not. The game design is solid and allows for all kinds of different play-styles to succeed.

I added an extra sentence from my last post. I think we have different opinion toward "free will".

If I need to sacrifice something or waste other's time because I choose to play the job in a certain way, then it's not free will.

The game allows all kinds of different playstyle, true. It also punishes the majority of the playstyle due to it's ineffectiveness.

Dale

10-18-2014, 05:12 AM

I added an extra sentence from my last post. I think we have different opinion toward "free will".

If I need to sacrifice something or hurt the others because I choose to play the job in a certain way, then it's not free will.

The game allows all kinds of different playstyle, true. It also punishes the majority of the playstyle due to it's ineffectiveness.

No it doesn't. If I'm attempting to kill a NM on my Red Mage for example but can't and a warrior who uses a shield comes along and helps me kill it guess what, I wasn't punished for it. In fact it helped me. The fact a warrior using a Great Axe may have helped me kill it faster doesn't mean I was punished because a warrior who used a shield helped me instead.

You have a very strange idea about what being punished is.

Afania

10-18-2014, 05:18 AM

No it doesn't. If I'm attempting to kill a NM on my Red Mage for example but can't and a warrior who uses a shield comes along and helps me kill it guess what, I wasn't punished for it. In fact it helped me. The fact a warrior using a Great Axe may have helped me kill it faster doesn't mean I was punished because a warrior who used a shield helped me instead.

You have a very strange idea about what being punished is.

More like you have a very strange idea about what being punished is.....

If I can do yorcia in 15~20 min with 3 proper DD, then we change job to 3 shield WAR and spend 30+ min instead, I wasted 10~15 min because we want to role play.

So what's the point to change job to a shield WAR just because we like it? We got punished by spending more time.

Dale

10-18-2014, 05:23 AM

More like you have a very strange idea about what being punished is.....

If I can do yorcia in 15~20 min with 3 proper DD, then we change job to 3 shield WAR and spend 30+ min instead, I wasted 10~15 min because we want to role play.

So what's the point to change job to a shield WAR just because we like it? We only got punished by spending more time.

No it's more like you do.

In your eyes unless someone helps you the fastest they are somehow punishing you. So I guess if someone gave you a lift to work they would be punishing you unless they drove you to work in a Ferrari or something. It's just ludicrous. And heaven forbid players role play on a role playing game.

detlef

10-18-2014, 05:29 AM

Fighting a soloable NM and having a random person join in to speed things is up is just slightly different from doing a Yorcia Delve run.

Dale

10-18-2014, 05:34 AM

Fighting a soloable NM and having a random person join in to speed things is up is just slightly different from doing a Yorcia Delve run.

It wasn't a soloable NM in that example I gave. I needed help to defeat it. That was the whole point.

And none of my comments have been about Yorcia Deleve runs. If you don't want to take a warrior with a shield to one of your Yorcia Delve Runs then don't. But that doesn't mean you have to be annoyed by warriors who use shields or suggest they should never join any content outside of role-playing. That's what I am talking about here. So we are talking about different things.

Byrth

10-18-2014, 05:34 AM

Dale

10-18-2014, 05:41 AM

I am pretty confident that good players could beat normal mode fights with decent gear despite playing inefficiently. It would not shock me in the least to see a bunch of WHM/NINs meleeburn every N fight and probably quite a few D ones too. Or shield WARs and bow SAM/RNGs. However, there is absolutely no incentive to shout for such a player.

There is a major lack of organizers in the NA community on Lakshmi right now, to the extent that I get people joining my shouts regularly without comments because they just have nothing else to do. It is a shouter's market, so why shout for or accept a pink THF that offhands Ridll because he wrestled it from the clutches of the mighty wyrm Fafnir? Might as well get someone else and ensure that the other 6 players in your group have a better experience as a result.

Not even normal fights to aid in your point. I've done difficult mode battlefields with a pair of dragoons before.

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

Malithar

10-18-2014, 06:53 AM

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

Olor

10-18-2014, 07:39 AM

Please, lets not lump players that make dumb choices (single handed weapon & shield war) to players that play jobs that SE has given the shaft to. They are two different things.

Malithar

10-18-2014, 10:17 AM

Please, lets not lump players that make dumb choices (single handed weapon & shield war) to players that play jobs that SE has given the shaft to. They are two different things.

No doubt, wasn't what I meant by that. Was more eluding to how he feels that people will only run with the absolute most efficient setups. Doesn't mean you'll be able to get into pugs on those jobs, but running with a dedicated group that understands how to gear and play those jobs to their best puts you in a situation where you're plenty capable of completing a good deal of content, without anyone carrying anyone.

Afania

10-18-2014, 01:55 PM

No it's more like you do.

In your eyes unless someone helps you the fastest they are somehow punishing you. So I guess if someone gave you a lift to work they would be punishing you unless they drove you to work in a Ferrari or something. It's just ludicrous. And heaven forbid players role play on a role playing game.

Using a Ferrari isn't a good example at all. I don't have Ferrari, if I need to go somewhere I can't use it. So I'd just accept w/e I got.

If you're a WAR with no GA nor GA skill leveled, and all you have is one 1h weapon in your inv, then I suppose it's not a punishment.

If you have both GA and 1h weapon to choose from, and choose not to use a GA, then you're purposely choosing to do it slow and grind less stuff/hr because you want to role play.

Think of it this way, you're doing a job you enjoy and make $5/hr, v.s doing another job you don't enjoy which makes $20/hr. Why can't you do a job you enjoy and make $20/hr instead? You're being punished for doing a job you enjoy, so how is it not a punishment? You're grinding less plasm/hr because you want to role play or do something you enjoy, seems like a punishment to me.

I didn't say anything about "you can't role play", stop playing the "I want to role play in MMORPG" card. I'm talking about something completely different, which is "you make less plasm/hr and grind less stuff/hr if you want to role play".

Also stop thinking I always want the fastest setup possible, I do delve on BLU a lot, which is not an efficient DD at all. I do it to have fun, but I wouldn't pretend it's not a punishment to my pt when I play BLU. It's just that my friends/lsmate can accept it, it doesn't mean it's not a punishment.

You can accept a fun job making $5/hr is different from pretending making $5 is not a punishment when you can make $20.

Afania

10-18-2014, 02:02 PM

Not even normal fights to aid in your point. I've done difficult mode battlefields with a pair of dragoons before.

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

Except Byrth's example wasn't even the same thing as the shield WAR example you gave. His intention is to state that "you can have fun with different setup", which I agree, You just insisted that other players have to think the way you want them to be, which I don't agree.

Dale

10-21-2014, 01:17 AM

Using a Ferrari isn't a good example at all. I don't have Ferrari, if I need to go somewhere I can't use it. So I'd just accept w/e I got.

If you're a WAR with no GA nor GA skill leveled, and all you have is one 1h weapon in your inv, then I suppose it's not a punishment.

If you have both GA and 1h weapon to choose from, and choose not to use a GA, then you're purposely choosing to do it slow and grind less stuff/hr because you want to role play.

Think of it this way, you're doing a job you enjoy and make $5/hr, v.s doing another job you don't enjoy which makes $20/hr. Why can't you do a job you enjoy and make $20/hr instead? You're being punished for doing a job you enjoy, so how is it not a punishment? You're grinding less plasm/hr because you want to role play or do something you enjoy, seems like a punishment to me.

I didn't say anything about "you can't role play", stop playing the "I want to role play in MMORPG" card. I'm talking about something completely different, which is "you make less plasm/hr and grind less stuff/hr if you want to role play".

Also stop thinking I always want the fastest setup possible, I do delve on BLU a lot, which is not an efficient DD at all. I do it to have fun, but I wouldn't pretend it's not a punishment to my pt when I play BLU. It's just that my friends/lsmate can accept it, it doesn't mean it's not a punishment.

You can accept a fun job making $5/hr is different from pretending making $5 is not a punishment when you can make $20.

But it was a good example. From all you have said, unless someone helps you as efficiently and quickly as possible you view it as a punishment. And to touch on what you said, even if you had two choices for a drive to work - one in a Ferrari and another in a station wagon... it doesn't really matter. The person driving you to work in a station wagon is still doing you a favor and it's faster than walking your butt to work. So to view someone helping you as punishment because you had better choices is still extremely misguided - to use a mild term.

And if you want me to stop thinking you always want the fastest set up possible, then you should probably stop putting such an emphasis on it. All I ever read from you on these forums is spreadsheets and dps and how players should do the most damage as possible else they are punishing other players, a leech, and should be barred from all activity outside of role play. So the only one to blame for my impressions of how you think is yourself.

Dale

10-21-2014, 01:21 AM

Except Byrth's example wasn't even the same thing as the shield WAR example you gave. His intention is to state that "you can have fun with different setup", which I agree, You just insisted that other players have to think the way you want them to be, which I don't agree.

No I insisted that players not be annoyed by how other players choose to play. For example: if a warrior wants to use a shield or a paladin wants to use a great sword. These are not good reasons to get annoyed at someone IMHO.

You can think how ever you want. You can group with who ever you want. All I asked in this thread is that you and others not get annoyed at other players simply because they may play differently than you think they should. And that really isn't too much to ask.

Dale

10-21-2014, 02:15 AM

It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

I was trying to make a more general point based off what you said but not limited to your specific situation. If that makes any sense to you.

There is a lot of intolerance on MMORPGs these days toward players experimenting with and using a variety of different play styles. And part of why I spend my time on this forum is to combat that. So I'm sorry if you felt I unfairly signaled you out, derailed the thread, or psychoanalyzed you. That was not my intention.

I used to play regularly with a warrior who used a shield. She was a Japanese player and very good and I was able to complete a lot of content with her. So warriors who use shields do not automatically suck and therefore legitimate targets for annoyance (I'm not saying you said that, just making that clear). And that was what I was trying to get across.

There are a lot of players out there who play in unusual ways yet succeed at it. So I am advising people to give them a chance before they assume things about them, judge them, or become annoyed by them. That was basically my point.

As far as me wanting to get the last word: all you have to do is clarify that you won't let the mere fact a warrior chooses to play with a shield annoy you and I'll be happy to give you the last word ^^

Afania

10-22-2014, 04:17 AM

But it was a good example. From all you have said, unless someone helps you as efficiently and quickly as possible you view it as a punishment. And to touch on what you said, even if you had two choices for a drive to work - one in a Ferrari and another in a station wagon... it doesn't really matter. The person driving you to work in a station wagon is still doing you a favor and it's faster than walking your butt to work. So to view someone helping you as punishment because you had better choices is still extremely misguided - to use a mild term.

And if you want me to stop thinking you always want the fastest set up possible, then you should probably stop putting such an emphasis on it. All I ever read from you on these forums is spreadsheets and dps and how players should do the most damage as possible else they are punishing other players, a leech, and should be barred from all activity outside of role play. So the only one to blame for my impressions of how you think is yourself.

It's not cuz the example I used wasn't even "I'm killing an NM and I'm getting help". You kept changing the scenario into "I'm getting help, so anything I got is just a bonus", but my point was about everything in this game to begin with, including raid and grinding. In the case of grinding, the logic of "any help I got is just a bonus" can't apply here.

No I insisted that players not be annoyed by how other players choose to play. For example: if a warrior wants to use a shield or a paladin wants to use a great sword. These are not good reasons to get annoyed at someone IMHO.

You can think how ever you want. You can group with who ever you want. All I asked in this thread is that you and others not get annoyed at other players simply because they may play differently than you think they should. And that really isn't too much to ask.

This is silly, it's human nature that ppl would have certain POV toward others, 95% of time it's something negative.

"This guy is annoying cuz he use a shield!" "This guy is annoying cuz he always fake d/c" "This guy is annoying cuz he always blame on others for failure" "This guy is annoying cuz he likes to show off his gears" "This guys is annoying cuz he only plays SAM".

Every choice you made, everything you said, someone else WILL have certain POV toward it. I bet there are plenty of ppl that's annoyed by both of our posts here.

There's zero reason to ask others NOT to feel annoyed(nor have certain opinion) toward the others. It's not going to work, that's just human nature. At best you can ask others not to act disrespect toward the others, you can't control how they think of the others though.

If you have an issue with other's behavior, point fingers at their action, not their thought/opinion.

Dale

10-22-2014, 05:28 AM

It's not cuz the example I used wasn't even "I'm killing an NM and I'm getting help". You kept changing the scenario into "I'm getting help, so anything I got is just a bonus", but my point was about everything in this game to begin with, including raid and grinding. In the case of grinding, the logic of "any help I got is just a bonus" can't apply here.

This is silly, it's human nature that ppl would have certain POV toward others, 95% of time it's something negative.

"This guy is annoying cuz he use a shield!" "This guy is annoying cuz he always fake d/c" "This guy is annoying cuz he always blame on others for failure" "This guy is annoying cuz he likes to show off his gears" "This guys is annoying cuz he only plays SAM".

Every choice you made, everything you said, someone else WILL have certain POV toward it. I bet there are plenty of ppl that's annoyed by both of our posts here.

There's zero reason to ask others NOT to feel annoyed(nor have certain opinion) toward the others. It's not going to work, that's just human nature. At best you can ask others not to act disrespect toward the others, you can't control how they think of the others though.

If you have an issue with other's behavior, point fingers at their action, not their thought/opinion.

I'm not really understanding your first point because I wasn't trying to change any scenarios.

I was using analogies to try and better illustrate why I take issue with your position that unless someone helps you as quickly and efficiently as possible they are somehow punishing you as a result. I just find that an incredibly misguided way to look at things.

As to your second point: I just think it's silly to get annoyed at someone over such a harmless detail. I have no problem with people having a point of view about something. If you want to think it's stupid for a warrior to use a shield then that is entirely your right to have that point of view. And with that I have no problems. But to get annoyed at them over it to me is a different matter and unnecessary.

In other words: I believe we should be able to have different points of view without it causing us to become annoyed at one another. Especially when it's on a video game and over something as silly as this.

And my reasoning is that a little live and let live would go a long way to making the MMORPG experience a lot more enjoyable for a broader group of players.

Afania

10-22-2014, 10:22 PM

I'm not really understanding your first point because I wasn't trying to change any scenarios.

I was using analogies to try and better illustrate why I take issue with your position that unless someone helps you as quickly and efficiently as possible they are somehow punishing you as a result. I just find that an incredibly misguided way to look at things.

But you can't compare them, cuz asking friends/ls for help with something is completely different from grinding. Asking friends/ls to help you with something is always a bonus, whether they come naked, shield WAR, melee WHM or w/e. Efficiency is a none issue when it comes to getting help, since helpers don't get stuff to begin with.

If a friends come and help with stuff, I don't give a damn about efficiency as well, since extra help is always appreciated. But if I do yorcia 6 NM run, unless I'm selling win I usually would avoid a 45 min run when it can be done in less than 20 min. Most ppl aren't masochist enough to spend double amount of time to do something that everyone else can do twice as fast just because they want to play certain playstyle.

They're just not the same.

If today I can do yorcia 6 NM with 3 shield WAR in 20 min, then I can say role playing in this game isn't a punishment, otherwise I don't agree with you. You get less stuff than others if you role play, how is it not a punishment?

As to your second point: I just think it's silly to get annoyed at someone over such a harmless detail. I have no problem with people having a point of view about something. If you want to think it's stupid for a warrior to use a shield then that is entirely your right to have that point of view. And with that I have no problems. But to get annoyed at them over it to me is a different matter and unnecessary.

You think it's okay to think it's "stupid" for a WAR to use a shield, but not okay if it's "annoying"?

I don't understand your logic lol.

Dale

10-23-2014, 02:09 AM

But you can't compare them, cuz asking friends/ls for help with something is completely different from grinding. Asking friends/ls to help you with something is always a bonus, whether they come naked, shield WAR, melee WHM or w/e. Efficiency is a none issue when it comes to getting help, since helpers don't get stuff to begin with.

If a friends come and help with stuff, I don't give a damn about efficiency as well, since extra help is always appreciated. But if I do yorcia 6 NM run, unless I'm selling win I usually would avoid a 45 min run when it can be done in less than 20 min. Most ppl aren't masochist enough to spend double amount of time to do something that everyone else can do twice as fast just because they want to play certain playstyle.

They're just not the same.

If today I can do yorcia 6 NM with 3 shield WAR in 20 min, then I can say role playing in this game isn't a punishment, otherwise I don't agree with you. You get less stuff than others if you role play, how is it not a punishment?

You think it's okay to think it's "stupid" for a WAR to use a shield, but not okay if it's "annoying"?

I don't understand your logic lol.

So now suddenly you don't give a damn about efficiency and recognize extra help is always appreciated. Good. I'm glad we are making progress :) So I am content with that.

And you can think something is "stupid" without it causing you to become annoyed at someone. So I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. For example: I think it's really stupid to do get drunk (I know because I had a lot of experience at it in my youth). But that doesn't mean I'm going to let my own personal feelings about it cause me to get annoyed at other people who do choose to get drunk.

Afania

10-23-2014, 02:25 AM

So now suddenly you don't give a damn about efficiency and recognize extra help is always appreciated. Good. I'm glad we are making progress :) So I am content with that.

And you can think something is "stupid" without it causing you to become annoyed at someone. So I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. For example: I think it's really stupid to do get drunk (I know because I had a lot of experience at it in my youth). But that doesn't mean I'm going to let my own personal feelings about it cause me to get annoyed at other people who do choose to get drunk.

Not sure what's so "suddenly don't give a damn about efficiency".......I've been talking about raid/grind event entire time, which is mostly about how much stuff you can get per hr. You're the one mixing raid/grind content with asking for help......Obviously you can't demand your helper to be efficient or something, since they're getting nothing(most of the time) for helping.

My stance about efficiency don't change, since it's based on facts and math. It'll only change if dev change the game design and reward different play style. Let shield WAR grind as much plasm/hr as GA WAR, then I won't say a thing about different play style.

Annoyed is just a POV toward the others like feeling stupid.....

Dale

10-23-2014, 02:40 AM

Not sure what's so "suddenly don't give a damn about efficiency".......I've been talking about raid/grind event entire time, which is mostly about how much stuff you can get per hr. You're the one mixing raid/grind content with asking for help......Obviously you can't demand your helper to be efficient or something, since they're getting nothing(most of the time) for helping.

My stance about efficiency don't change, since it's based on facts and math. It'll only change if dev change the game design and reward different play style. Let shield WAR grind as much plasm/hr as GA WAR, then I won't say a thing about different play style.

Annoyed is just a POV toward the others like feeling stupid.....

So you never have friends help you with raid/grind events? I do what you would refer to as grinding all the time with friends. So is it a punishment or not when a friend who needs something out of it helps you with a raid/grind but doesn't play as efficiently as possible? Cause now I am confused again.

And no, being annoyed at someone else is not just having a point of view. It is a personal emotion toward that individual. To just think something is stupid in a general sense is quite a bit different.

Glamdring

10-23-2014, 08:13 AM

It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

Wow, people are writing like I suggested full timing a shield, I did no such thing. all I said is that when you hopefully swap into that defensive set a shield has utility-an extra 30 defense can help a lot and many shields have -dmg on them as well. Once a cure lands on you, you swap back to whatever set you normally play in, and for most Wars that's likely a GAxe and a grip (seeing a dual-wielding war at 119 is extremely rare) so a shield is impossible. But if you are going to need a few seconds longer than usual (whm mid-cast or low MP or TP on healers) it might be the difference that keeps you alive long enough for them to cure you. I remember leveling war in the old days and I was tanking-until level 30 when all ability to tank pretty much dried up. From that point on, war tanking is pretty much confined to giving the nin time to put shadows back up, allowing a pld to cure themselves, or voking off a pt member who CANNOT take the hit when hate control hits the fan-especially healers or support people-and then only until the tank can take it back, and you wouldn't swap in a shield there unless the fan is fully hit.

no, the only time I would switch to a shield fulltime as a war is going to be when you find out you made a BIG mistake picking that enemy and are hoping to survive by a miracle. IF you live, you don't make that mistake again, fight something else and should only need it if you are waiting on a cure, like soloing with trusts, and that is a swapping situation again.

Tidis

10-23-2014, 08:41 AM

Swapping to a shield isn't even good for a temporary defence boost, it's so minimal it's not worth it, on the other hand, you lose all your TP, you don't have a GA equipped anymore so you're doing poor damage.

Fact is you'll probably be /SAM or /NIN, if you really look like you're getting killed, Seigan + Third Eye or try to get shadows up while rocking PDT, that should be plenty, swapping to a shield is never a good option.

Afania

10-23-2014, 09:52 AM

So you never have friends help you with raid/grind events? I do what you would refer to as grinding all the time with friends. So is it a punishment or not when a friend who needs something out of it helps you with a raid/grind but doesn't play as efficiently as possible? Cause now I am confused again.

I fail to see how friends in raid/grind event even relevant in this discussion.

My point was about how you got punished if you want to play different style in this game, friend or not.

Btw, I've never seen anyone/friends/lsmate/PUG purposely choose an inefficient playstyle due to role playing purpose, such as a shield WAR. I don't need to "demand" them to play the job in certain way, they aren't going to do it either.

Seriously, is it really that hard to grasp the concept of "you get less stuff per hour if you want to be a shield WAR"?

And no, being annoyed at someone else is not just having a point of view. It is a personal emotion toward that individual. To just think something is stupid in a general sense is quite a bit different.

So? What's wrong with having an emotion toward the other individual? It's human nature to have positive/negative emotion toward the others.

Afania

10-23-2014, 09:55 AM

Wow, people are writing like I suggested full timing a shield, I did no such thing.

We knew that, and we've been saying that a WAR using a shield is extremely ineffective...if you're dying with a GA, you're probably gonna die with a shield anyways.....while making the fight last longer and WHM harder to keep the DD alive.

Dale

10-23-2014, 10:42 PM

I fail to see how friends in raid/grind event even relevant in this discussion.

My point was about how you got punished if you want to play different style in this game, friend or not.

Btw, I've never seen anyone/friends/lsmate/PUG purposely choose an inefficient playstyle due to role playing purpose, such as a shield WAR. I don't need to "demand" them to play the job in certain way, they aren't going to do it either.

Seriously, is it really that hard to grasp the concept of "you get less stuff per hour if you want to be a shield WAR"?

So? What's wrong with having an emotion toward the other individual? It's human nature to have positive/negative emotion toward the others.

It's relevant because you brought it up. So it's strange to me you are suddenly saying it has no relevance when you are the one who decided to make it a important distinction in this debate to begin with. But now you are back to saying it's punishment even if a friend helps you in a less-efficient way. It's really hard to keep track of what you are saying because it changes so much.

But anyway: after reading this latest post from you this is what I take your position to be:

For some weird reason you seem to think it's punishment for anyone help you with a raid/grind unless they do it as efficiently as possible. But I maintain you should really learn to appreciate less-then-perfect help and not view it as a punishment. Because it's still better than you having to do it alone. In short: I believe you to have a very flawed idea of what the concept of punishment is.

As to your last point: just because you consider something to be human nature doesn't mean I have to approve of it. I don't get annoyed at people simply because they play a video game differently than I think they should. So it's not in my nature. And I'm pretty human. Least last time I checked.

Tidis

10-23-2014, 11:04 PM

It's relevant because you brought it up. So it's strange to me you are suddenly saying it has no relevance when you are the one who decided to make it a important distinction in this debate to begin with. But now you are back to saying it's punishment even if a friend helps you in a less-efficient way. It's really hard to keep track of what you are saying because it changes so much.

But anyway: after reading this latest post from you this is what I take your position to be:

For some weird reason you seem to think it's punishment for anyone help you with a raid/grind unless they do it as efficiently as possible. But I maintain you should really learn to appreciate less-then-perfect help and not view it as a punishment. Because it's still better than you having to do it alone. In short: I believe you to have a very flawed idea of what the concept of punishment is.

As to your last point: just because you consider something to be human nature doesn't mean I have to approve of it. I don't get annoyed at people simply because they play a video game differently than I think they should. So it's not in my nature. And I'm pretty human. Least last time I checked.

People are free to play how they want yes, but at the same time you shouldn't discourage other players from telling them what is proven to be better, it's advice, it helps the player improve. When I first started, WAR was the job I started with and since I knew I wanted to be a PLD I used sword + shield, then suddenly I was told I should really use axes (This was when dual wield was king but I didn't have /NIN at the time) so I went with an axe and shield, after which I was to use a GA.

Since most players will now skip that learning step of areas like the Dunes and Qufim Island, there may be some players out there completely unaware they are playing inefficiently, there is no harm in telling them how to improve, they can take the advice on board, or just ignore it and play how they want.

Dale

10-23-2014, 11:12 PM

People are free to play how they want yes, but at the same time you shouldn't discourage other players from telling them what is proven to be better, it's advice, it helps the player improve. When I first started, WAR was the job I started with and since I knew I wanted to be a PLD I used sword + shield, then suddenly I was told I should really use axes (This was when dual wield was king but I didn't have /NIN at the time) so I went with an axe and shield, after which I was to use a GA.

Since most players will now skip that learning step of areas like the Dunes and Qufim Island, there may be some players out there completely unaware they are playing inefficiently, there is no harm in telling them how to improve, they can take the advice on board, or just ignore it and play how they want.

We are talking about two different things Tidus.

You can advise players how ever you want. And I was never debating the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of different play-styles.

Malithar

10-23-2014, 11:48 PM

We are talking about two different things Tidus.

You can advise players how ever you want. And I was never debating the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of different play-styles.

Except you were, when you were defending a shield War saying it's viable, and that you know plenty of good War's who use shields.

The disconnect you're having with Afania is due to misunderstanding helping someone, and doing a run with someone. If I'm tossing together a casual run of something, say CP farming, I couldn't care less what people bring, people want CPs on different things. I'd still expect them to play at an average level at least, but if they wanna putz around as a melee mage, skill shield, etc, then have at it. But if I'm grinding out say a couple hours of Yorcia runs for gil and someone comes, then they need to be efficient to pull their weight.

It pretty much comes down to the intent of what is being done. If it's something casual, do whatever you want, role play, gimp it up, whatever. If it's something where efficiency will greatly alter the number of clears and drops we can get in a given time (and our focus is on obtaining those as fast as possible) then leave those things at the door, it's (Time for work!)

Dale

10-23-2014, 11:52 PM

Except you were, when you were defending a shield War saying it's viable, and that you know plenty of good War's who use shields.

The disconnect you're having with Afania is due to misunderstanding helping someone, and doing a run with someone

Except that I wasn't. I'm in a much better position to say what I was doing than you are Malithar. ^^

Just because I said I have known warriors who used shields that were good players and consider them viable does not mean I was debating they were more or less effective than warriors who use great axes or any other play-style.

My disconnect with Afania is over her belief that unless someone helps/does a run with her as efficiently as possible it is somehow punishing her as a result. It's about how she views the contribution of other players in her raid/grind.

And anytime you do a raid/grind with someone they are helping you as far as I'm concerned. This semantic nonsense over the difference in helping and doing a run with someone is enough to hurt my brain cells and has no bearing on this debate at all from my perspective. But in order to be accommodating, I will refrain from using the word help for now on when describing other players who assist you in raids/grind. I'll use that word for now on. :confused:

Afania

10-24-2014, 01:13 AM

For some weird reason you seem to think it's punishment for anyone help you with a raid/grind unless they do it as efficiently as possible. But I maintain you should really learn to appreciate less-then-perfect help and not view it as a punishment. Because it's still better than you having to do it alone. In short: I believe you to have a very flawed idea of what the concept of punishment is.

As to your last point: just because you consider something to be human nature doesn't mean I have to approve of it. I don't get annoyed at people simply because they play a video game differently than I think they should. So it's not in my nature. And I'm pretty human. Least last time I checked.

1) So you still don't get what I mean,to a point that you have to twist my opinion into "you don't appreciate others" huh? At this point idk if you just can't comprehend other's opinion or just trolling.

I appreciate help, I appreciate less than perfect help, for gods sake me nor all of my friends plays perfect. But it is not the same as purposely choosing to play a shield WAR for role playing purpose. Me or all of my friends plays imperfect because that's where our limitations are, choosing to play shield WAR is making a choice when different options available.

At least point idk what to tell you if you still can't grasp the concept nor tell the difference, 5 ppl in this thread told you how shield WAR isn't a good idea, you just wouldn't accept it. Is it really that hard to accept others opinion to a point that you have to twist other's idea into something completely different?

2) Right, you don't get annoyed over someone else, good(or too bad) for you. That doesn't mean everyone else is the same as you. Some ppl has emotion toward the others, let it be happiness or annoyed. You can't ask everyone else to be the same as you.

Just because you aren't like that, doesn't mean it's not part of the human nature to have emotion toward the others. "Human nature" is a term that may not apply to every single individual.

Afania

10-24-2014, 01:21 AM

Except that I wasn't. I'm in a much better position to say what I was doing than you are Malithar. ^^

Just because I said I have known warriors who used shields that were good players and consider them viable does not mean I was debating they were more or less effective than warriors who use great axes or any other play-style.

My disconnect with Afania is over her belief that unless someone helps/does a run with her as efficiently as possible it is somehow punishing her as a result. It's about how she views the contribution of other players in her raid/grind.

And anytime you do a raid/grind with someone they are helping you as far as I'm concerned. This semantic nonsense over the difference in helping and doing a run with someone is enough to hurt my brain cells and has no bearing on this debate at all from my perspective. But in order to be accommodating, I will refrain from using the word help for now on when describing other players who assist you in raids/grind. I'll use that word for now on. :confused:

Doing a raid/grind is DIFFERENT from helping. When you do a yorcia run for plasm/gil, everyone gets $$. The only goal of all the pt members is to get stuff. In this case, it's more like a business, less like killing X NM and completing Y mission.

When I use the term help, I meant one person sacrificed their time to help another player progress, and get little to no return. That's help, and that's not business.

You're the one confusing the 2.

Dale

10-24-2014, 01:24 AM

1) So you still don't get what I mean,to a point that you have to twist my opinion into "you don't appreciate others" huh? At this point idk if you just can't comprehend other's opinion or just trolling.

I appreciate help, I appreciate less than perfect help, for gods sake me nor all of my friends plays perfect. But it is not the same as purposely choosing to play a shield WAR for role playing purpose. Me or all of my friends plays imperfect because that's where our limitations are, choosing to play shield WAR is making a choice when different options available.

At least point idk what to tell you if you still can't grasp the concept nor tell the difference, 5 ppl in this thread told you how shield WAR isn't a good idea, you just wouldn't accept it. Is it really that hard to accept others opinion to a point that you have to twist other's idea into something completely different?

2) Right, you don't get annoyed over someone else, good(or too bad) for you. That doesn't mean everyone else is the same as you. Some ppl has emotion toward the others, let it be happiness or annoyed. You can't ask everyone else to be the same as you.

Just because you aren't like that, doesn't mean it's not part of the human nature to have emotion toward the others. "Human nature" is a term that may not apply to every single individual.

So now the trolling word is coming into play. Yep. I think this conversation is about done :)

I don't understand how you can appreciate someone assisting you while at the same time seeing them as punishing you. That seems to be a contradiction in terms. But w/e. I already said I'm glad you are now saying you appreciate less-than-perfect assistance. So why don't we end it at that as I tried to do earlier? I'm content with that.

And rather a warrior using a shield is a bad idea or good idea isn't my issue. My issue is allowing it to cause you to become annoyed at that person. That's what I have a problem with. Rather you think it's human nature or not doesn't really matter to me. I still have a problem with it.

Dale

10-24-2014, 01:30 AM

Doing a raid/grind is DIFFERENT from helping. When you do a yorcia run for plasm/gil, everyone gets $$. The only goal of all the pt members is to get stuff. In this case, it's more like a business, less like killing X NM and completing Y mission.

When I use the term help, I meant one person sacrificed their time to help another player progress, and get little to no return. That's help, and that's not business.

You're the one confusing the 2.

lol if you say so. I never knew the term help couldn't be applied to doing raids and grinds. And I certainly never knew playing video games was like a business. So I suppose when I ask a buddy to help me with a raid/grind they aren't really helping me if they need something from the raid/grind too? I certainly don't agree with you. But this doesn't matter. I've already stated I will no longer use the word help so it's a non-issue. I will use the word assist for now. Maybe that will avoid these silly word games.

Tidis

10-24-2014, 01:30 AM

Dale

10-24-2014, 01:38 AM

People get annoyed at things that may seem trivial, I love PLD, if I see a poorly geared PLD I may get annoyed, I don't cuss them out, I may tell my LS something like "Wow this PLD is wearing some stupid stuff" without name dropping or anything because that would be unfair.

Likewise, recently I got annoyed at a poorly geared THF with a D Ring, that manly stems from my horrible luck at getting one myself and seeing someone who I would deem as geared poorly, having one ahead of me.

People are well within their right to get annoyed at another player, in the common example here, the WAR using a shield, just don't be a douche about it.

If you are saying an individual has a legal right to get annoyed at someone else just because they play differently than they think they should or have gear they don't find acceptable then yes, I guess technically you are right. But I also have a legal right to think it's a stupid reason to get annoyed at someone else over. So I'm not sure what your point is.

Seillan

10-24-2014, 01:46 AM

Dale

10-24-2014, 02:02 AM

I wasn't going to get into this -- and I'll say right now that I've agreed with quite a few of your posts and views Dale and less so with Afania -- but I'd have to side with Afania on this particular argument. There's a clear distinction between getting help from someone that gains nothing for themselves and are just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, versus a random group member that is going for the same reward(s) as everyone else. One of them is doing it just to be helpful and thus, it would be outrageously rude to berate them for their choice of playstyle. After all, they don't have to be helping you at all. The other is doing something to better his/her character, along with others there for the same reason, and as such, is expected to contribute to the best of their ability (which partly means not deliberately gimping yourself.)

Don't get me wrong though, like I've said before, I'm not the type of person who cares that much about efficiency, so if someone was in my group and wanted to use a shield as a warrior, it wouldn't bother me for a second. At the end of the day, it's a game and my time must not be all that valuable to begin with if I'm playing one (heh.) I don't mind an extra 10 or 20 minutes to complete something as long as I'm having fun doing it.

Also, as far as having an issue with someone about "being annoyed" I'd once again have to side with Afania. It's his/her right to be annoyed about something because ultimately, it's really just an opinion. You can of course choose to think it's stupid to be annoyed by something like that, which is also your right, but you can't really dictate how someone should or shouldn't feel. It's up to the individual to feel however they want. That's life.

Rather or not there is a distinction between someone helping you selflessly or with the possibility of self-gain was irrelevant to what I was saying. Either you appreciate someone assisting you less-than-perfectly or you view it as them punishing you. That was what the debate was about. How on earth this got side-tracked into a semantics game about what the word help means I will never know.

In other words: when Afania picks up a stranger from the street to assist her with a raid/grind she considers it as punishment unless they pay as efficiently as possible. That's what I take issue with. Because I think she should appreciate assistance rather it's as efficient as possible or not.

Secondly, this is a forum where people give their opinions. This isn't congress and I'm not trying to write laws dictating how people behave. People should be able to play this game as they want without having other players get annoyed at them for it. That's how I feel and I'm going to say it. People can either agree with me or not. That's life.

Seillan

10-24-2014, 02:21 AM

Rather or not there is a distinction between someone helping you selflessly or with the possibility of self-gain was irrelevant to what I was saying. Either you appreciate someone assisting you less-than-perfectly or you view it as them punishing you. That was what the debate was about. How on earth this got side-tracker into a semantics game about what the word help means I will never know.

In other words: when Afania picks up a stranger from the street to assist her with a raid/grind she considers it as punishment unless they pay as efficiently as possible. That's what I take issue with. Because I think she should appreciate assistance rather it's as efficient as possible or not.

Secondly, this is a forum where people give their opinions. This isn't congress and I'm not trying to write laws dictating how people behave. People should be able to play this game as they want without having other players get annoyed at them for it. That's how I feel and I'm going to say it. People can either agree with me or not.

But it's not really irrelevant because Afania clearly stated the scenarios he/she was talking about. One of them was with someone helping with "little to no gain" to themselves and the other was business as usual in a party setting. The former, you are taking what you can get, no matter how inefficient because it will ultimately make it easier than doing it alone. In that situation, you appreciate the help regardless of the person's play style because it still helps you accomplish a goal more quickly than by yourself (plus the person is being selfless which is always appreciated, no matter who you are.)

The latter is something that everyone in the group is benefiting from equally. Since everyone is getting an equal share, it stands to reason that everyone should be contributing as best as they can. Now of course, some people will just not play as efficiently for various reasons and/or they might be playing a class that is considered by some to be "suboptimal" (which is honestly something that I feel should always be tolerated/accepted for the good of the game as a whole) but I can also understand that if something as simple as using a two-handed weapon over a s/s combination makes a huge notable difference to the speed of the run, it wouldn't be a bad idea for said shield user to switch to a two-hander for the good of the group.

And of course you're right. Everyone can give their opinions; that was my point too. Hence why I said it's totally someone's right to be annoyed at something, regardless of how trivial some of us might think it is. I will say that a person should never harass someone for playing a different way or any other reason of the sort. It's one thing to feel a way about something, but another entirely to act on it. From what I've seen in this thread, it looks like Afania understands that concept as well, so I'm not even sure why this argument is still continuing at this point.

Dale

10-24-2014, 02:26 AM

But it's not really irrelevant because Afania clearly stated the scenarios he/she was talking about. One of them was with someone helping with "little to no gain" to themselves and the other was business as usual in a party setting. The former, you are taking what you can get, no matter how inefficient because it will ultimately make it easier than doing it alone. In that situation, you appreciate the help regardless of the person's play style because it still helps you accomplish a goal more quickly than by yourself (plus the person is being selfless which is always appreciated, no matter who you are.)

The latter is something that everyone in the group is benefiting from equally. Since everyone is getting an equal share, it stands to reason that everyone should be contributing as best as they can. Now of course, some people will just not play as efficiently for various reasons and/or they might be playing a class that is considered by some to be "suboptimal" (which is honestly something that I feel should always be tolerated/accepted for the good of the game as a whole) but I can also understand that if something as simple as using a two-handed weapon over a s/s combination makes a huge notable difference to the speed of the run, it wouldn't be a bad idea for said shield user to switch to a two-hander for the good of the group.

And of course you're right. Everyone can give their opinions; that was my point too. Hence why I said it's totally someone's right to be annoyed at something, regardless of how trivial some of us might think it is. I will say that a person should never harass someone for playing a different way or any other reason of the sort. It's one thing to feel a way about something, but another entirely to act on it. From what I've seen in this thread, it looks like Afania understands that concept as well, so I'm not even sure why this argument is still continuing at this point.

It's irrelevant to what I was saying. Maybe not to what she was saying. That's what you aren't understanding.

It doesn't matter to me if that person is assisting her with the possibility of getting something out of it or not. I feel she should still appreciate that assistance rather or not it is as efficient as possible. But she doesn't and views it as punishment instead.

That is the real disagreement in this debate. It has nothing to do with what the word help really means or what scenarios she is willing to appreciate less-than-perfect assistance in and which scenarios she isn't. That's just a side show to the real disagreement between us.

Seillan

10-24-2014, 02:41 AM

It's irrelevant to what I was saying. Maybe not to what she was saying. That's what you aren't understanding.

It doesn't matter to me if that person is assisting her with the possibility of getting something out of it or not. I feel she should still appreciate that assistance rather or not it is as efficient as possible. But she doesn't and views it as punishment instead.

That is the real disagreement in this debate. It has nothing to do with what the word help really means or what scenarios she is willing to appreciate less-than-perfect assistance in and which scenarios she isn't. That's just a side show to the real disagreement between us.

Well then, I guess the only thing left for you both to do is agree to disagree. Neither of you will change your POV (or each others) -- that much has been made blatantly clear -- so why keep this going? You've both stated your opinions and argued them thoroughly, so there's really nothing else you can do.

Dale

10-24-2014, 02:43 AM

Well then, I guess the only thing left for you both to do is agree to disagree. Neither of you will change your POV (or each others) -- that much has been made blatantly clear -- so why keep this going? You've both stated your opinions and argued them thoroughly, so there's really nothing else you can do.

That much is certainly clear. And I've tried to end it several times already by saying at least she can appreciate it when friends selflessly assist her in less-than-perfect ways so I am content with that.

Afania

10-24-2014, 04:00 AM

So now the trolling word is coming into play. Yep. I think this conversation is about done :)

I don't understand how you can appreciate someone assisting you while at the same time seeing them as punishing you. That seems to be a contradiction in terms. But w/e. I already said I'm glad you are now saying you appreciate less-than-perfect assistance. So why don't we end it at that as I tried to do earlier? I'm content with that.

And rather a warrior using a shield is a bad idea or good idea isn't my issue. My issue is allowing it to cause you to become annoyed at that person. That's what I have a problem with. Rather you think it's human nature or not doesn't really matter to me. I still have a problem with it.

FYI I didn't actually accuse you for trolling, I only pointed out that it could be what you're trying to do. If you're not trolling, then you're not.

I think Seillan already stated my POV toward "feeling annoyed", so there's no need to continue anymore. You can't control other's emotion. You think it's "silly" to feel annoyed at a shield WAR, I also think it's silly to have problem with someone else when you see them annoyed. I don't really give a damn if someone's annoyed/angry/happy/have emotion in a video game, human has emotion all the time, it's too tiring to care about every single individual's emotion. So I really don't understand why'd you have problem with some strangers on the internet feel annoyed.

If you have problem just because someone else feel annoyed to a point that you have to write 10 pages of post fighting against it, then you'd have problem with someone else very often then, lol. Wouldn't that make your life full of unhappiness since you view everything "wrong" if it doesn't go the way you want? lol.

Afania

10-24-2014, 04:04 AM

lol if you say so. I never knew the term help couldn't be applied to doing raids and grinds. And I certainly never knew playing video games was like a business. So I suppose when I ask a buddy to help me with a raid/grind they aren't really helping me if they need something from the raid/grind too? I certainly don't agree with you. But this doesn't matter. I've already stated I will no longer use the word help so it's a non-issue. I will use the word assist for now. Maybe that will avoid these silly word games.

It depend on the game, in the case of FFXI raid/endgame, I'd say yes, it's more like a business. That's mainly because the world of FFXI is quite close to how rl works. For gods sake, ppl sell win in this game, so that is related to making profit and how is making profit not business?

Also FYI, I appreciate friend's help, if they actually help. If they're not contributing anything, then it's not real help. So how is it possible to appreciate it if I got 0 help? Do you expect someone join a yorcia pt, got a split of gil(so everyone gets less $$ per run), while doing almost nothing in entire run? That's not how the world works. No one(not just Afania) is going to appreciate helps like this.

I also have to point out, in FFXI endgame events, if you bring more than 6 person the difficulty gets higher. So you simply can't just bring anyone.

It seems that you're eager to define how the world should work using your own POV, while I just stated how the world works using objective POV by stating facts and analyze it.

Catmato

10-24-2014, 07:32 AM

So how 'bout them Job Adjustments?

Seillan

10-24-2014, 01:09 PM

<Small voice>

I've got Defender job points level 6, and 5/5 defender merits lol. I like my War having the option to go defensive for survival, and I guess that includes shields. But obviously no War is going to a serious zerg event with Defender up and a shield equipped. Its just a useful situational boost and option.

Hey Stompa, I hate to ask about this here where it's totally off-topic and random, but since this site doesn't seem to have a PM function (unless I missed it) I was wondering what the community on your server was like? I've been playing quite a bit on Asura but I haven't really noticed many social/family-style linkshells around during my time there. I was looking for something more laid back and more accepting of all jobs, rather than just a handful of them (Ha, that's "kind of" on topic.) I figure that kind of thing might be easier to find on a somewhat smaller server?

Anyway, I was just curious of your opinions on the server, generally.

Byrth

10-24-2014, 09:02 PM

The job adjustments had no impact on whether or not Dancer is used, and here is why:

Every time you use a JA, you incur a forced delay (minimum of 1 second, in practice about ~1.3 seconds on average). I adjusted Motenten's sheet (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ayejryvsfpzxfi5/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20Dnc.xlsx?dl=0)to model the changes to Ternary/Striking flourish and assign their JA delay to that TP/WS cycle, as well as added JA delay for other things like Steps.

Assumptions:
* 80 delay (~1.3 seconds) per JA. -- This is a favorable assumption because it assumes every JA is followed by a WS. It represents the maximum possible efficiency given server-client transfer times and very probably underestimates the real JA delay.
* A 3 minute fight, which is essentially the most favorable possible assumption for Steps.
* The modeled player was responsible for applying the Steps.
* Berserk, Haste Samba, etc. were all applied at the beginning of the fight, and that Haste Samba would have to be applied twice.
* I used Pyrrhic Kleos and Climactic-Rudra's as my two test cases. I didn't use Evisceration because I originally set out to test Tier 3 flourishes and they're all fairly worthless with Evisc.
* No build-up time for step potency. It was assumed to be instantly 100% potent, so 10 steps would be -23% Defense from the first second of the fight.
* My own gear.
* One BRD for buffs.
* No skillchains
* Reverse Flourish is an instant 1000 TP for WS.
* Steps are 100% Accurate

Some conclusions:
1) Climactic is the only Flourish worth using before a WS. Ternary, Striking, and Building are each a net DPS loss in most situations simply due to their activation times (not counting the time it takes to get steps).

2) In a buffed situation, Feather Step starts having a negative impact on the DNC's DPS almost immediately. I found that level 1 was a net DPS gain for the DNC, but after that it went downhill. Might have been different if I modeled Evisceration.

3) Box Step is worthwhile until you cap Ratio.

4) With capped magic Haste, using a 5% DW Toetapper Mantle and not using Haste Samba was essentially equivalent to using Haste Samba (-1% DPS) and I'm not even sure that's the most efficient tradeoff. Considering Haste Samba doesn't help SAMs, DRKs (in a 3 min fight), DW jobs, or H2H jobs, this would be a way to simplify your playstyle.

5) Saber Dance is only a net +3% DPS. Given that you don't really need Haste Samba (#4), there will be times when Fan Dance is a more reasonable option.

6) Reverse Flourish is definitely worth using if you don't attribute any of the delay from FM generation to it (80 delay). If you attribute two JAs worth of delay (160) to it, it's still minorly worth using. Three JAs (240 delay) make it not worth using anymore, so you basically should never use useless steps to build FMs for Reverse Flourish, because you'll always need at least 3 JAs (Presto + Feather Step + Reverse Flourish or Step + Step + Reverse Flourish) to get a full WS worth of TP back even with Terpsichore.

Disclaimer: It is possible to precharge Presto, Striking Flourish, etc. when moving between mobs so the JA delay is effectively negated, which I do. I was looking to evaluate the changes from this update together, though, so a 3 minute fight is really the best place to do it.

Does this make the problems with Dancer a little more clear? In the ideal group-event case outlined above, you use Box Step-> WS until you cap it and mix in two Box Step -> Climactic Flourish -> Rudra's Storms combos and as many Reverse Flourish -> WSs as you can while you have free FMs. You use Feather Step at most once. You probably don't use Haste Samba or Saber Dance unless your WHM is on top of their stuff or you're doing an event with a WAR or DRG. After you max out Box Step, you just sit there spamming WSs and not using any of your Dancer specific JAs.

Martel

10-24-2014, 10:17 PM

So I clicked on this thread, solely because I saw that Bryth had posted. Went to first unread post to update my context, then slogged through 10 pages of text that had absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic. -.-;

Well, it was worth it in the end. Interesting and informative post Byrth. Thanks.

If you don't mind a slight derail, how would you go about evaluating the value swipe and lunge for RUN DPS? Swipe requires 2 jas to be used, although you can stack them. And Lunge requires 4(for a 3 rune lunge) but you can only stack 2 of them. It can be argued that you'd use the runes anyway, but to go with that, you'd have to only lunge when they were about to wear anyway. So, looking at 3 min lunge recast vs 5 min rune duration.

Thoughts?

Dale

10-24-2014, 11:05 PM

It depend on the game, in the case of FFXI raid/endgame, I'd say yes, it's more like a business. That's mainly because the world of FFXI is quite close to how rl works. For gods sake, ppl sell win in this game, so that is related to making profit and how is making profit not business?

Also FYI, I appreciate friend's help, if they actually help. If they're not contributing anything, then it's not real help. So how is it possible to appreciate it if I got 0 help? Do you expect someone join a yorcia pt, got a split of gil(so everyone gets less $$ per run), while doing almost nothing in entire run? That's not how the world works. No one(not just Afania) is going to appreciate helps like this.

I also have to point out, in FFXI endgame events, if you bring more than 6 person the difficulty gets higher. So you simply can't just bring anyone.

It seems that you're eager to define how the world should work using your own POV, while I just stated how the world works using objective POV by stating facts and analyze it.

Yes, I know you appreciate a "friend's help". We have established that, at least in the limited confines of how you define these words. What you don't appreciate however is the assistance of others in raid/grinds because you view it as punishing you unless they assist you as efficiently as possible because video games are like a business to you. Or something like that.

But long as they assist you efficiently enough to where you beat the raid you ought to appreciate it. Who cares if it wasn't as efficient as possible and might have took a couple more minutes. Big deal. That's no reason to view them as punishing you.

You are also exaggerating. Just because I am saying you should appreciate someone assisting you rather they are playing as efficiently as possible or not doesn't mean I am saying you should just bring anyone.

There is a huge difference in appreciating the assistance of someone who might be doing 10% less damage than another DPS job and then bringing a level 30 job wearing a bikini.

And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it. But it's funny it's ok for you to have your point of view yet when I have mine I'm somewhere trying to control the world. Because it is my point of view that it's stupid to get annoyed at someone else just because they may play a video game differently than you think they should.

Dale

10-24-2014, 11:15 PM

<Small voice>

I've got Defender job points level 6, and 5/5 defender merits lol. I like my War having the option to go defensive for survival, and I guess that includes shields. But obviously no War is going to a serious zerg event with Defender up and a shield equipped. Its just a useful situational boost and option.

I was never debating about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of wearing a shield in different situations though. I made that as crystal clear as any human being can.

My point was not to get annoyed at a warrior just because they are wearing a shield. And it is truly amazing to me how such a simple un-offensive opinion as that can spark such a firestorm. And boy does it prove what I have been saying in some of my other posts regarding the intolerance and demanding nature of today's gaming community. Because apparently its not enough not to play with them, but everyone must be annoyed at them as well. What's next? A lynching? Jezzus.

It's so insane it would be comical if not the fact it deters a lot of really cool people from playing these types of games.

Afania

10-25-2014, 12:29 AM

Yes, I know you appreciate a "friend's help". We have established that, at least in the limited confines of how you define these words. What you don't appreciate however is the assistance of others in raid/grinds because you view it as punishing you unless they assist you as efficiently as possible because video games are like a business to you. Or something like that.

But long as they assist you efficiently enough to where you beat the raid you ought to appreciate it. Who cares if it wasn't as efficient as possible and might have took a couple more minutes. Big deal. That's no reason to view them as punishing you.

You are also exaggerating. Just because I am saying you should appreciate someone assisting you rather they are playing as efficiently as possible or not doesn't mean I am saying you should just bring anyone.

There is a huge difference in appreciating the assistance of someone who might be doing 10% less damage than another DPS job and then bringing a level 30 job wearing a bikini.

And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it. But it's funny it's ok for you to have your point of view yet when I have mine I'm somewhere trying to control the world. Because it is my point of view that it's stupid to get annoyed at someone else just because they may play a video game differently than you think they should.

You don't get it, it isn't someone not playing efficiently that's punishing the pt(it's directed toward the pt, not just me), it's the game mechanic for certain playstyle that's punishing the pt.

Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you think a shield WAR is only 10% behind another DPS job. I really don't mind a DD doing 10% less dmg, but doing more than 50% less dmg is another story.

I was never debating about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of wearing a shield in different situations though. I made that as crystal clear as any human being can.

My point was not to get annoyed at a warrior just because they are wearing a shield. And it is truly amazing to me how such a simple un-offensive opinion as that can spark such a firestorm. And boy does it prove what I have been saying in some of my other posts regarding the intolerance and demanding nature of today's gaming community. Because apparently its not enough not to play with them, but everyone must be annoyed at them as well. What's next? A lynching? Jezzus.

It's so insane it would be comical if not the fact it deters a lot of really cool people from playing these types of games.

Do you really need to state your opinion toward "feel annoyed" over and over and OVER again? You don't feel annoyed, we got it. Someone else still feel annoyed, that's his right to and there's nothing you can do about it even if you post 100 pages. Even if you don't agree with him, you don't need to post 10 pages of posts to state your opinion repeatly......everyone already got what you want to say here. It's really pointless to tell everyone "don't get annoyed toward a shield WAR" over and over and over again, your opinion isn't going to change other ppl's emotion, deal with it.

And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it.

You gave me a feeling that you're trying to change other's opinion, that's why you repeatedly stated your opinion when we already got what you said.

Afania

10-25-2014, 12:41 AM

Hey Stompa, I hate to ask about this here where it's totally off-topic and random, but since this site doesn't seem to have a PM function (unless I missed it) I was wondering what the community on your server was like? I've been playing quite a bit on Asura but I haven't really noticed many social/family-style linkshells around during my time there. I was looking for something more laid back and more accepting of all jobs, rather than just a handful of them (Ha, that's "kind of" on topic.) I figure that kind of thing might be easier to find on a somewhat smaller server?

Anyway, I was just curious of your opinions on the server, generally.

If you're looking for a social LS, why don't you use FFXIAH forum? It has a PM function and you can just post a thread on the server forum if you're looking for a LS like this.

I used to have a LS like that on Rag, but it broke after FFXIV release, idk many social LS anymore.

Dale

10-25-2014, 12:59 AM

You don't get it, it isn't someone not playing efficiently that's punishing the pt(it's directed toward the pt, not just me), it's the game mechanic for certain playstyle that's punishing the pt..

No it's you who just don't get it. If you are winning then it's not punishment. It doesn't matter if you could have won faster with someone else or not. You still aren't being punished by them... they are actually assisting you to win.

Please don't confuse the game mechanics with your over-broad and preposterous interpretation of what punishment is.

Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you think a shield WAR is only 10% behind another DPS job. I really don't mind a DD doing 10% less dmg, but doing more than 50% less dmg is another story...

I was never talking about a warrior using a shield in that post. Which is why I didn't mention it.

I have no idea what they parse at when compared to others. Nor do I really care. But it's nice to know you are now back peddling and saying you don't really mind for someone to do 10% less damage. How charitable of you :)

Do you really need to state your opinion toward "feel annoyed" over and over and OVER again? You don't feel annoyed, we got it. Someone else still feel annoyed, that's his right to and there's nothing you can do about it even if you post 100 pages. Even if you don't agree with him, you don't need to post 10 pages of posts to state your opinion repeatly......everyone already got what you want to say here. It's really pointless to tell everyone "don't get annoyed toward a shield WAR" over and over and over again, your opinion isn't going to change other ppl's emotion, deal with it.

You could have ended this debate at any time by doing the exact same thing you are telling me to do. So why don't you take your own advice and just accept I have my opinion as well and leave it at that. Because you aren't going to change my point of view either, deal with it. :cool:

You gave me a feeling that you're trying to change other's opinion, that's why you repeatedly stated your opinion when we already got what you said.

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion as well when I got what you said. So not sure what your point is, other than to suggest you are trying to change other's opinions also. In other words: you may want to stop lecturing me for doing the exact same thing you are doing.

Seillan

10-25-2014, 03:32 AM

I don't really know about other servers, I've only been on REM and LEV.

I'm on a social fun friends LS with around 25 people, if you are on LEV sometime I will pearl you. We do events but are not hardcore, just like to play the game and try our best lol. ^^

I'm still in the debating phase for now (if I move, I'll be paying for transfers for myself and a friend so I figured I should think on it for a bit) but I may have to take you up on that offer if I end up taking the plunge :). I'm used to smaller servers (and smaller guilds particularly) so I've always had a soft spot for that kind of atmosphere. Thanks for the reply!

If you're looking for a social LS, why don't you use FFXIAH forum? It has a PM function and you can just post a thread on the server forum if you're looking for a LS like this.

I used to have a LS like that on Rag, but it broke after FFXIV release, idk many social LS anymore.

Ah, I wasn't aware of how popular that forum was. I mainly only lurk around here for the most part, but I'll check it out. Thanks :).

Catmato

10-25-2014, 09:30 AM

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion You're both doing it. Shut up already.

Afania

10-25-2014, 09:31 AM

I have no idea what they parse at when compared to others. Nor do I really care. But it's nice to know you are now back peddling and saying you don't really mind for someone to do 10% less damage. How charitable of you :)

You could have ended this debate at any time by doing the exact same thing you are telling me to do. So why don't you take your own advice and just accept I have my opinion as well and leave it at that. Because you aren't going to change my point of view either, deal with it. :cool:

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion as well when I got what you said. So not sure what your point is, other than to suggest you are trying to change other's opinions also. In other words: you may want to stop lecturing me for doing the exact same thing you are doing.

The reason why I kept replying your post because you kept twisting the meaning of my post into something else. I've never_ever say anything about I want max(do you even know what this word means?) efficiency, I only said I don't agree with purposely choosing a playstyle that's obviously ineffective(like a shield WAR) in endgame event. I even said I played BLU in yorcia several times....which is obviously not the most efficient job. But not using the most efficient job is not the same as using an ineffective playstyle. The bolded part clearly pointed out the fact that you completely misunderstood what I meant.

I don't NEED max efficiency, that doesn't mean I can accept a pt member CHOOSING to do 50% of dmg purposely when you have the potential to do a lot more. That is not the same.

I'm not trying to "convince" you to think otherwise nor change your opinion, but if you want to twist my motivation into something else, of course I'd have to defend for myself.

Tbh, if I only ever want max efficiency, I wouldn't even reply 10 pages of posts here talking about the job warrior, I'd just write 1 sentence and gtfo: You're doing wrong if you invite a WAR to endgame.

Dale

10-25-2014, 11:59 PM

You're both doing it. Shut up already.

Why don't you shut up :)

You need to work on your manners. If you don't like my posts, just put me on ignore or something.

Dale

10-26-2014, 12:26 AM

The reason why I kept replying your post because you kept twisting the meaning of my post into something else. I've never_ever say anything about I want max(do you even know what this word means?) efficiency, I only said I don't agree with purposely choosing a playstyle that's obviously ineffective(like a shield WAR) in endgame event. I even said I played BLU in yorcia several times....which is obviously not the most efficient job. But not using the most efficient job is not the same as using an ineffective playstyle. The bolded part clearly pointed out the fact that you completely misunderstood what I meant.

I don't NEED max efficiency, that doesn't mean I can accept a pt member CHOOSING to do 50% of dmg purposely when you have the potential to do a lot more. That is not the same.

I'm not trying to "convince" you to think otherwise nor change your opinion, but if you want to twist my motivation into something else, of course I'd have to defend for myself.

Tbh, if I only ever want max efficiency, I wouldn't even reply 10 pages of posts here talking about the job warrior, I'd just write 1 sentence and gtfo: You're doing wrong if you invite a WAR to endgame.

But I'm not twisting what you are saying. At least not purposely.

You just identify words like help and now play-style and then apply how you mean these words and then think I'm trying to twist what you saying simply because I have a broader interpretation. For example: to me a person's play-style can include what job they choose to play. To me a person can be considered helping even when they may stand to get something out of it. See what I mean? We are getting hung up on semantics.

Anyway, I'll try to be as concise and clear as possible here and use only words we can agree on and ask you this:

When a player you view as a DD assists you with a play-style that is les-efficient in terms of their damage potential while inside a raid or grind you are participating in: do you or do you not view this as punishing you and the rest of your group - even if you can still be successful and the raid or grind is completed?

And that's all I'm asking. Forget about the warrior and his shield for a moment because that has nothing to do with this singular question I am asking you. Take it as a whole and having a context all to its own.

And if you answer yes to this question: that is what I have a problem with and what this debate between you and me has really been about. Because I think that is a destructive way to look at this game. It helps lead to players alienating a lot of different yet successful play styles simply because they do not do as much damage as other play-styles.

And if you answer no to this question: then I have just fundamentally misunderstood everything I have seen you post on these forums.

Byrth

10-26-2014, 12:52 AM

Dale

10-26-2014, 12:59 AM

It's reassuring that the community is still large enough that two people can meet and discuss the totally irrelevant minutiae they each care intensely about. I was afraid that FFXI's "word game circle jerk" era was over.

Thanks for proving me wrong.

I will be the first to admit the debate did devolve into irrelevant minutiae.

But I think the central point of it is still very important and one that should be heeded. Because it identifies the source of why so many job adjustments are constantly called for to begin with in an effort to make this game more inclusive.

If you really want to fix this issue job adjustments alone aren't going to cut it. You need to combat the actual mentality that is at the root of the problem.

Byrth

10-26-2014, 01:50 AM

Dale

10-26-2014, 05:05 AM

The system defines the approaches people take. If the general player"mentality" is a problem (whatever that means), the system is at fault.

SE needs to address fundamental game mechanics issues to enable varied playstyles.

Enmity

Forced delay

Accuracy/Magic Accuracy

Additional effects

Pet mechanics

These are issues that either scaled poorly from 50-99 or are problematic in some way (particularly when they intersect with the Haste. cap.) The haste cap is a near constant in group content now. These needed to be adjusted years ago.

No the system doesn't. At least not in regards to what I am referring to. Individual players do.

There is nothing in the system that demands players obsess over doing as much damage as possible else they are an impediment or a punishment to the group. It's not necessary nor does this game force players to do this. I complete difficult content on this game all the time with jobs and play-styles that don't do the most damage as efficiently as possible. They do not impede my progress in any significant way, nor do they punish me. In fact their assistance is valued and enables me to improve my character by allowing me to complete content I otherwise could not do on my own. And that is what I meant when I say the mentality is the problem. Not the gameplay.

Far as enmity mechanics - it think it's fine. This game is meant to be more strategic in nature. It doesn't rely on reflex-driven game play. Skilled damage dealers and healers can manage it to the point tanks can be utilized, and that is what's important.

I play a paladin. And it's easy for me to tell the skilled damage dealers vs the unskilled ones who just to go all out and often die instead of the the cautious and intelligent ones who know how to control their enmity and damage. And I prefer a system like that that rewards intelligent thought - rather the ones like in modern MMORPGs where the tank can basically just spam some enmity move all the time and everyone else just goes all out with no fear of pulling threat. A system like that gets boring quick to me.

I believe gameplay should reward intelligent thought and decision making. Not just maximizing rotations so you crank out bigger numbers. I don't like this kind of style.

Forced delay I'm not sure what you mean. So I won't comment on that one.

I don't agree that there is anything wrong with the Accuracy/Magic Accuracy] mechanics on this game. They seem pretty solid to me. And I like how evasion and magic evasion is actually a factor on this game. It allows stats like accuracy and magic accuracy to actually mean something as it relates to the gameplay and forces the player to make strategic decisions about what their priorities are. So I don't see anything wrong with that. It's much better than on these modern games where missing an enemy basically isn't even a factor you have to consider.

Additional Effects I may agree with you on. Much of the weapons/armor I have tested with additional effects have - for lack of a better word - sucked. They just don't happen enough to matter. So I wouldn't mind seeing some attention paid to that if that's what you mean.

Pet mechanics - I'm not qualified to comment on. I don't play pet classes. Though I did attempt to play a Beastmaster once a long time ago and I kept getting eaten by own pets. It was such a miserable experience and I haven't touched the job since. So I'm inclined to agree with you here and admit jobs that use pets could probably use some love.

Afania

10-26-2014, 05:12 AM

But I'm not twisting what you are saying. At least not purposely.

You just identify words like help and now play-style and then apply how you mean these words and then think I'm trying to twist what you saying simply because I have a broader interpretation. For example: to me a person's play-style can include what job they choose to play. To me a person can be considered helping even when they may stand to get something out of it. See what I mean? We are getting hung up on semantics.

Anyway, I'll try to be as concise and clear as possible here and use only words we can agree on and ask you this:

When a player you view as a DD assists you with a play-style that is les-efficient in terms of their damage potential while inside a raid or grind you are participating in: do you or do you not view this as punishing you and the rest of your group - even if you can still be successful and the raid or grind is completed?

And that's all I'm asking. Forget about the warrior and his shield for a moment because that has nothing to do with this singular question I am asking you. Take it as a whole and having a context all to its own.

And if you answer yes to this question: that is what I have a problem with and what this debate between you and me has really been about. Because I think that is a destructive way to look at this game. It helps lead to players alienating a lot of different yet successful play styles simply because they do not do as much damage as other play-styles.

And if you answer no to this question: then I have just fundamentally misunderstood everything I have seen you post on these forums.

You used the word "successful playstyle", which is a completely different scenario from previous shield WAR discussions. I'm not against successful playstyle, I'm only against ineffective ones.

Byrth just summarized my opinion in 1 sentence....you have a problem with me/playerbase or w/e, but it's game design issue.

If a "playstyle" is successful, then it's not a punishment, if a "playstyle" is ineffective(like shield WAR), then why would a player choose that "playstyle" to begin with?

When I said "effective", I don't mean "do more dmg" at all. Wearing a PDT- set or /NIN is also a "do less dmg" playstyle, but it's effective in certain situation. Therefore I'm not against /NIN or PDT- set at all.

If you can find a "playstyle" that's effective, show it to the community and explain why. I'm pretty sure some ppl are still willing to try...I try new playstyle all the time, except I don't use ineffective ones.

Whether you're winning or not is not exactly relevant to this discussion. You can technically clear yorcia 6 NM with 3 ppl doing the job and 3 afk players anyways. But you're spending more time in an event with no gain. When you merc a win you're also wasting client's time for lower service quality....so less client for your group in the long run cuz everyone else would just find a faster group to buy win. You know, merc group has reputation as well.

I know you hate to play a vid game like doing a business, but that's the truth about FFXI that there's nothing you can do to change it unless it become an offline game....players are human, they act and make choices like irl. It's not that I enjoy the game this way, I just observe and analyze the fact. If certain "playstyle" clearly doesn't work, there's nothing I can do to change that except post on SE forum. I can only point out "This play style doesn't work" here.

If you have problem with FFXI like this, that's too bad. There's nothing I can do to help you anymore.

So the real yes/no question should be like this:

Am I ok with a different playstyle that works even if it does less dmg? Yes. I'm ok with inviting a DNC, COR or BLU to DD pt. I'm ok with DD/NIN in AA BCs.

Am I ok with a different playstyle that doesn't do anything? No. If a WAR uses a shield, I'd be confused.

It's as simple as that.

Dale

10-26-2014, 05:16 AM

You used the word "successful playstyle", which is a completely different scenario from previous shield WAR discussions. I'm not against successful playstyle, I'm only against ineffective ones.

Byrth just summarized my opinion in 1 sentence....you have a problem with me/playerbase or w/e, but it's game design issue.

If a "playstyle" is successful, then it's not a punishment, if a "playstyle" is ineffective(like shield WAR), then why would a player choose that "playstyle" to begin with?

When I said "effective", I don't mean "do more dmg" at all. Wearing a PDT- set or /NIN is also a "do less dmg" playstyle, but it's effective in certain situation. Therefore I'm not against /NIN or PDT- set at all.

If you can find a "playstyle" that's effective, show it to the community and explain why. I'm pretty sure some ppl are still willing to try...I try new playstyle all the time, except I don't use ineffective ones.

Whether you're winning or not is not exactly relevant to this discussion. You can technically clear yorcia 6 NM with 3 ppl doing the job and 3 afk players anyways. But you're spending more time in an event with no gain. When you merc a win you're also wasting client's time for lower service quality....so less client for your group in the long run cuz everyone else would just find a faster group to buy win. You know, merc group has reputation as well.

I know you hate to play a vid game like doing a business, but that's the truth about FFXI that there's nothing you can do to change it unless it become an offline game....players are human, they act and make choices like irl. It's not that I enjoy the game this way, I just observe and analyze the fact. If certain "playstyle" clearly doesn't work, there's nothing I can do to change that except post on SE forum. I can only point out "This play style doesn't work" here.

If you have problem with FFXI like this, that's too bad. There's nothing I can do to help you anymore.

I asked you a simple question yes or no question and you couldn't do it. You instead want to debate the semantics about what different words mean. As usual.

The bottom line is different play styles do work and they can be successful. The fact they may do less damage and clear content slower doesn't change this important fact.

And my problem isn't with the way FF XI is. I have a problem with the way you view other play-styles in this narrow prism of how much damage they do and how fast they can clear content because you see a video game like a business. And if you can't understand that important difference, there is nothing I can do to help you anymore.

Afania

10-26-2014, 05:21 AM

I asked you a simple question yes or no question and you couldn't do it. You instead want to debate the semantics about what different words mean. As usual.

The bottom line is you are wrong. Different play styles do work and they can be successful. The fact they may do less damage doesn't change this.

And my problem isn't with the way FF XI is. I have a problem with the way you view other play-styles in this narrow prism of how much damage they do. And if you can't understand that important difference, there is nothing I can do to help you anymore.

I didn't answer because the question you asked was completely different from your previous POV. Your previous POV was all about role playing and respecting ppl with different playstyle, even if it's ineffective. Now you suddenly changed to "different playstyle that does less dmg can work" So how can I answer that? Of course I'd accept a different playstyle that works, except shield WAR doesn't work.

I never argue that "different playstyle that do less dmg" doesn't work, I only argue that "certain playstyle" doesn't work.

DD/NIN do less dmg and it works, DD using a shield doesn't. This case by case, you're the one who's wrong if you think I'm against ALL playstyle that does less dmg.

Dale

10-26-2014, 05:26 AM

I didn't answer because the question you asked is completely different from your previous POV. So how can I answer that?

I never argue that "different playstyle that do less dmg" doesn't work, I only argue that "certain playstyle" doesn't work.

DD/NIN do less dmg and it works, DD using a shield doesn't. This case by case, you're the one who's wrong if you think I'm against ALL playstyle that does less dmg.

I told you specifically to view that question in its own context. What ever you think my previous POV doesn't matter. I was merely looking for a simple yes or no to a question I asked as directly and clearly with as much detail as I am capable of doing.

I'm not interested in debating which play-styles you may or may not have meant or what my point of view was. I have moved passed that.

I take your point that you were not saying all play-styles that do less damage don't work. But that's not what is really at question. The crux of the matter is if you view them as being a punishment to the group or not. Not merely just that they work. Because that is the central point of our disagreement. The rest is mostly just semantics and a misunderstanding of what different words mean to us.

Because you see in my mind if the play-style works then it can't be considered a punishment to a group.

Afania

10-26-2014, 05:39 AM

I told you specifically to view that question in its own context What ever you think my previous POV doesn't matter. I was merely looking for a simple yes or no to a question I asked as directly and clearly with as much detail as I am capable of doing.

I'm not interested in debating different in play-styles or what my point of view was. I have moved passed that.

I just said this playstyle thing is case-by-case. While your question did not specify a playstyle. This is your original question:

When a player you view as a DD assists you with a play-style that is les-efficient in terms of their damage potential while inside a raid or grind you are participating in: do you or do you not view this as punishing you and the rest of your group - even if you can still be successful and the raid or grind is completed?

Again, how can I answer this question if you don't be specific about the job/playstyle? There's no definite yes/no to this question because everything is situational in FFXI.

If a DD come to AA subbing NIN and do less dmg, even if we don't win I still wouldn't view it as a punishment.

If a DD come to yorcia with a sword and a shield, even if we win I'd still view it as an ineffective playstyle unless the DD can convince me otherwise.

Again, if you have a problem with the community(pretty sure I'm not the only one having an issue with a shield DD in this game) because of this, then there's nothing I can do to change that.

Just don't twist the meaning of my opinion into something else. Not accepting certain playstyle that does less dmg is not the same as not accepting ALL playstyle that does less dmg.

Dale

10-26-2014, 05:52 AM

I just said this playstyle thing is case-by-case. While your question did not specify a playstyle. This is your original question:

When a player you view as a DD assists you with a play-style that is les-efficient in terms of their damage potential while inside a raid or grind you are participating in: do you or do you not view this as punishing you and the rest of your group - even if you can still be successful and the raid or grind is completed?

Again, how can I answer this question if you don't be specific about the job/playstyle? There's no definite yes/no to this question.

If a DD come to AA subbing NIN and do less dmg, even if we don't win I still wouldn't view it as a punishment.

If a DD come to yorcia with a sword and a shield, even if we win I'd still view it as an ineffective playstyle.

Again, if you have a problem with the community(pretty sure I'm not the only one having an issue with a shield DD in this game) because of this, then there's nothing I can do to change that.

Just don't twist the meaning of my opinion into something else. Not accepting certain playstyle that does less dmg is not the same as not accepting ALL playstyle that does less dmg.

I am not trying to twist anything lol

I just asked you what I thought to be a simple question. I don't understand why I have to insert a specific example of a play-style for it to be answerable. But what ever, I will insert a specific case-by-case example if that's what it takes. So let me ask it this way: and I will even put it in personal terms since you bring up a shield DD and require specificity.

If I was to join your group as a DD on my paladin sporting a sword and shield and wearing dps gear would you view me as punishing you and the rest of your group even though my contribution wouldn't hinder the raid or grind from being successfully completed?

How is that?

Afania

10-26-2014, 05:57 AM

I am not trying to twist anything lol

I just asked you what I thought to be a simple question. I don't understand why I have to insert a specific example of a play-style for it to be answerable. But what ever, I will insert a specific case-by-case example if that's what it takes. So let me ask it this way: and I will even put it in personal terms since you bring up a shield DD and require specificity.

If I was to join your group as a DD on my paladin sporting a sword and shield and wearing dps gear would you view me as punishing you and the rest of your group even though my contribution wouldn't hinder the raid or grind from being successfully completed?

How is that?

This isn't a simple yes/no question as well.

I'd suggest you use a GS or DW two swords on DD PLD instead. If you listen to the suggestion then I have np with that. If you insist to use a sword and a shield I'd view you as purposely choosing a playstyle that punishes yourself and the group.

And no, I don't have an issue with a DD PLD, but using a shield isn't DD PLD build.

Dale

10-26-2014, 06:05 AM

This isn't a simple yes/no question as well.

I'd suggest you use a GS or DW two swords on PLD instead. If you listen to the suggestion then I have np with that. If you insist to use a sword and a shield I'd view you as purposely choosing a playstyle that punishes yourself and the group.

So your answer was yes then. It's like trying to pull teeth with you isn't it :) Because I specifically pointed out I was using a sword and shield and not a great sword.

And that is where we disagree and what this debate has really been about from the beginning. The rest was just a smoke screen. Because you think others have to live up to your own expectations about how they should play their job to maximize damage otherwise you see them as punishment to the group and don't want to play with them. Even if them being there would in no way hinder the raid or grind from being successful. And in my opinion, that is just a piss-poor way go about playing with other people on an MMORPG.

Afania

10-26-2014, 06:05 AM

This isn't a simple yes/no question as well.

I'd suggest you use a GS or DW two swords on DD PLD instead. If you listen to the suggestion then I have np with that. If you insist to use a sword and a shield I'd view you as purposely choosing a playstyle that punishes yourself and the group.

And no, I don't have an issue with a DD PLD, but using a shield isn't DD PLD build.

Oh and btw, if you use a shield on a PLD mid-event when things go wrong, like WHM died or holding the NM, then it'd still be an effective playstyle....but that only applies to PLD kinda.

If you choose to use a shield on a DD PLD entire time even when you don't need it, then it's purposely choosing a "playstyle" that doesn't work very well.

Dale

10-26-2014, 06:10 AM

Oh and btw, if you use a shield on a PLD mid-event when things go wrong, like WHM died or holding the NM, then it'd still be an effective playstyle....but that only applies to PLD kinda.

If you choose to use a shield on a DD PLD entire time even when you don't need it, then it's purposely choosing a "playstyle" that doesn't work very well.

I'm pretty satisfied where this debate ended up so I'm not going to start debating when you think it's appropriate to change to a shield and when it isn't. That's not really my purpose here in this thread.

It took me 10 pages of drivel to do it - but I finally highlighted the differences between us and what is it about your point of view I have a problem with. It's clear neither of us are going to agree with the other. So probably best just to leave it here.

Afania

10-26-2014, 06:12 AM

So your answer was yes then. It's like trying to pull teeth with you isn't it :) Because I specifically pointed out I was using a sword and shield and not a great sword.

And that is where we disagree and what this debate has really been about from the beginning. The rest was just a smoke screen. Because you think others have to live up to your own expectations about how they should play their job to maximize damage otherwise you see them as punishment to the group and don't want to play with them. Even if them being there would in no way hinder the raid or grind from being successful. And to me, that is just a piss-poor way go about playing with other people on an MMORPG.

Well, too bad for you. When you're in a team, it's unrealistic to expect everyone else have no expectations. In my case, I expect pt member to make effective choices on gearing, instead of purposely choosing certain ineffective playstyle because they just want to do it their way.

That's how FFXI community and real life works, it's barely just my opinion. Your family have expectations on you, your co-workers have expectation on you, it's just human nature to have expectations when interacting with each others. If you want to work with others, you have to live up to other's expectations, that's life.

I simply observed what happened in the game word and make choices based on observations.

FYI, you got at least 6 ppl replying negatively regarding shield DD, I'm not sure why direct your opinion toward me. This is not just how I think. If you think it's all Afania's issue, try to make a yorcia PT on a shield PLD, or invite a shield PLD to a yorcia pt, see what kind of reply you'd get.

I bet you'd get negative reply like "this is not SAM!" even with a GS PLD.

Afania

10-26-2014, 06:18 AM

I'm pretty satisfied where this debate ended up so I'm not going to start debating when you think it's appropriate to change to a shield and when it isn't. That's not really my purpose here in this thread.

It took me 10 pages of drivel to do it - but I finally highlighted the differences between us and what is it about your point of view I have a problem with. It's clear neither of us are going to agree with the other. So probably best just to leave it here.

There's only 1 difference between us, you don't like other's expectation in a team and view it negatively, while I just pointed out the fact that expectations exist in life.

If you don't agree then w/e.

Dale

10-26-2014, 06:25 AM

Well, too bad for you. When you're in a team, it's unrealistic to expect everyone else have no expectations.

That's how FFXI community and real life works, it's barely just my opinion. I simply observed what happened in the game word and make choices based on observations.

FYI, you got at least 6 ppl replying negatively regarding shield DD, I'm not sure why direct your opinion toward me. This is not just how I think. If you think it's all Afania's issue, try to make a yorcia PT on a shield PLD, or invite a shield PLD to a yorcia pt, see what kind of reply you'd get.

I bet you'd get negative reply like "this is not SAM!" even with a GS PLD.

No it's not too bad for me at all. Because I often play as a damage dealer with my Paladin using a sword and shield when I group. I don't always tank. And we do just fine and have a lot of fun while doing it. We also win and get nice stuff I can use to upgrade my character. So I really don't see what there is for me to feel bad about. Hell, I even DD on my Red Mage too often enough.

You see not everyone on this game thinks like you do. You might consider that your opinion represents the so-called community but it really doesn't and is no more important than my own opinion. And I would be more than happy to play with a shield DD anytime.

Sure, they may not do as much damage as a samurai or some other two-hander job. But if they are well-played with good gear they can contribute just fine and certainly don't punish my group.

Also: you are once again exaggerating. There is a huge difference in having extremely high expectations that everyone play their job as you think they should else you won't party with them and then having zero expectations.

Dale

10-26-2014, 06:29 AM

There's only 1 difference between us, you don't like other's expectation in a team and view it negatively, while I just pointed out the fact that expectations exist in life.

If you don't agree then w/e.

I've already pointed out the difference between us. And I don't need you to re-word my positions for me. I am capable of doing that on my own :)

No where when I signed on to play this game did I agree to having to play this game according to Afania's expectations.

But yes, it's safe to assume we don't agree. On that point at least we are in agreement.

Afania

10-26-2014, 06:35 AM

No it's not too bad for me at all. Because I often play as a damage dealer with my Paladin using a sword and shield when I group. I don't always tank. And we do just fine and have a lot of fun while doing it. We also win and get nice stuff I can use to upgrade my character. So I really don't see what there is for me to feel bad about. Hell, I even DD on my Red Mage too often enough.

You see not everyone on this game thinks like you do. You might consider that your opinion represents the so-called community but it really doesn't and is no more important than my own opinion. And I would be more than happy to play with a shield DD anytime.

Sure, they may not do as much damage as a samurai or some other two-hander job. But if they are well-played with good gear they can contribute just fine and certainly don't punish my group.

Also: you are once again exaggerating. There is a huge difference in having extremely high expectations that everyone play their job as you think they should else you won't party with them and then having zero expectations.

When I said "too bad for you" it's not about how you want to play PLD, but the fact that you have problem with others having an expectation toward team member in a team. I'm not asking you to feel bad or anything.

I'm completely fine with you only play with friends, I only point out the consequence of your choice: You can only play with friends.

In my case I play with PUG a lot, and I also start lead ls or shout pt a lot. It's not possible to have zero expectation toward pt member and keep things going....I have expectations on pt member just like my pt member has expectation on me as a leader. I can invite a shield DD, but they'd start drama or be unhappy, so I have to have expectations...all the pt member has expectations toward the entire team as well.

If I only want to play the way I want or have no expectations toward pt member, I won't be able to PUG properly, this is how this world works.

Also expecting a DD don't use a shield when they DD is hardly an extremely high expectation....do you even know what extremely high means?

If I have extremely high expectation toward the pt member, I'd only ever invite a Koga SAM that can solo DD yorcia in less than 25 min. Expecting a PLD not using a shield when DDing is a below avg expectation - -. I mean, is it really THAT hard to remove the shield in offhand slot and equip another sword instead?

If anything you're the one that has no grey area.

Dale

10-26-2014, 06:40 AM

When I said "too bad for you" it's not about how you want to play PLD, but the fact that you have problem with others having an expectation toward team member in a team. I'm not asking you to feel bad or anything.

Also expecting a DD don't use a shield when they DD is hardly extremely high expectation....do you even know what extremely high means?

If I have extremely high expectation toward the pt member, I'd only ever a Koga SAM that can solo DD yorcia in less than 25 min. Expecting a PLD not using a shield when DDing is a below avg expectation - -.

If anything you're the one that has no grey area.

No I have a problem with your expectations toward the team. And I've already explained why so there is no need for me to repeat it.

I know you want to lure me into another semantic debate about what the word extremely means but I rather not. Use the word high expectations if you want. Or below normal. Or what ever word suits your fancy.

Afania

10-26-2014, 06:42 AM

No I have a problem with your expectations toward the team. And I've already explained why so there is no need for me to repeat it.

I know you want to lure me into another semantic debate about what the word extremely means but I rather not. Use the word high expectations if you want. Or below normal. Or what ever word suits your fancy.

I have expectations toward the team because other team members has equal or more expectation toward the team and the lead. I'm not sure why you continue to direct this "problem" toward my behavior.

Try to PUG yorcia run and invite a shield PLD, see what kind of reply you'd get, then you'd understand why. Ppl simply have expectations in life. For gods sake every delve PUG I made I receive at least 5 hate tell toward other pt member's performance every run.

Dale

10-26-2014, 06:49 AM

I have expectations toward the team because other team members has equal or more expectation toward the team and the lead. I'm not sure why you continue to direct this "problem" toward my behavior.

Because it is your behavior I am talking about. Excluding me from your group because I wanted to use my sword and shield instead of a great sword is what you said you would do.

And I don't know these others you are talking about and they aren't here to defend themselves. So it's impossible for me to direct my argument at them. All I can say to you is you shouldn't let others people dictate how you treat people. You should treat them as you feel you should. Because peer pressure can have nasty consequences and people should rise above it.

Kensagaku

10-26-2014, 06:53 AM

Dale

10-26-2014, 07:01 AM

...You two are rather enamored with the last word, aren't you? 10+ pages of derailment off-track and yet you two both vie for the same stupid point. If it matters so much, take it to a messenger or something, don't clutter up more threads with your stubborn refusal to budge. You both have opinions, and that's that. What happened to the "Job Adjustments" thread?

Look, threads often veer into multiple topics. That should be expected. Though I feel our debate has important links to the spirit of this topic because many of the job adjustments being asked for are designed to combat the issue me and her are debating.

All I can tell you is if you find my posts irritating put me on ignore. I won't hold it against you (and if that sounds arrogant it wasn't meant to be).

Afania

10-26-2014, 07:04 AM

Because it is your behavior I am talking about. Excluding me from your group because I wanted to use my sword and shield instead of a great sword is what you said you would do.

And I don't know these others you are talking about and they aren't here to defend themselves. So it's impossible for me to direct my argument at them. All I can say to you is you shouldn't let others people dictate how you treat people. You should treat them as you feel you should. Because peer pressure can have nasty consequences and people should rise above it.

This isn't just "peer pressure", having expectation is how rl works. If I'm not contributing enough in a company, my boss would fire me. If I'm not providing good service to my client, my client look for someone else for the service. I'm not sure why'd FFXI be any different since it's still played by real players.

Again, if you don't want expectations, go play with friends or offline game. If you work with strangers, it's normal to have expectations.

I also don't undersatnd why it's such a big deal that other groups exclude a sword and shield DD in their group. Is it really that much to ask to unequip a shield? I give instructions a lot more than "don't equip a shield" all the time, if you refuse to follow this simple direction, how'd you follow other directions?

...You two are rather enamored with the last word, aren't you? 10+ pages of derailment off-track and yet you two both vie for the same stupid point. If it matters so much, take it to a messenger or something, don't clutter up more threads with your stubborn refusal to budge. You both have opinions, and that's that. What happened to the "Job Adjustments" thread?

This forum has no PM function though.......Although Dale is welcomed to PM my FFXIAH account if he wants to continue.