[Dev1235] Job Adjustments [Archive] - Page 2

Seillan

10-26-2014, 08:04 AM

This isn't just "peer pressure", having expectation is how rl works. If I'm not contributing enough in a company, my boss would fire me. If I'm not providing good service to my client, my client look for someone else for the service. I'm not sure why'd FFXI be any different since it's still played by real players.

Again, if you don't want expectations, go play with friends or offline game. If you work with strangers, it's normal to have expectations.

I also don't undersatnd why it's such a big deal that other groups exclude a sword and shield DD in their group. Is it really that much to ask to unequip a shield? I give instructions a lot more than "don't equip a shield" all the time, if you refuse to follow this simple direction, how'd you follow other directions?

I guess what I can't personally understand is how you can take a video game so effing seriously. You liken it to working a job or "providing good service to a client," but... it's a video game. It's made to be used as a form of entertainment, a way to relax after work, an escape from reality -- not a place to re-live all the RL bullsh*t and pressures many of us are trying try escape. Honestly, and don't take this personally, but the mindset that you seem to be advocating here and explaining as the "facts of FFXI" just make me want to give up on the game. There are so many cool things about the FFXI universe, and I'd like to experience everything, but the more I read about how seemingly terrible things get in end-game and how strict and uptight people seem to get about doing everything in just a few cookie-cutter ways (going by your testimony here) the less I'm inclined to continue logging in. I'd have to agree with Dale that that kind of attitude is likely a big part of the reason that these "job adjustment" arguments are even raised to begin with, seeing as how the min/max players you refer to in your posts have such a narrow-minded view of how the game should be played, which jobs are considered "worthless," which play-styles are "effective, etc. You say these are just facts on how the game works, but if it's actually possible to complete the same content with varying "worthless" jobs and different play-styles (as Dale has attested), then how is it a "fact?" Is it slower to progress that way? No doubt. But ultimately, in the end, what does it really matter? I'd much rather have something take an extra 20 minutes and be fun, rather than having it go quicker with a class/job that I hate. I would think I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I'm not saying you're wrong here -- as I'm sure you wouldn't be making these arguments if they weren't your actual experiences in-game with PUGs and such -- but I will say that it's a depressing thing to read. I just wish these games were about fun again and not about being some pseudo-second job, with spreadsheets, and maximizing numbers, and status reports, and meters to make sure that the peons are all running optimally in their hamster wheels at all times, etc. Ugh. I just want to relax, play, and have fun on a class/job I enjoy but it seems that's practically viewed as a crime these days depending on the job, or consequently, the way that job is played. I feel that the importance some people put on efficiency is honestly to a fault. I mean, when you're lying on your death bed in the twilight years of your life, who's going to care how many extra incremental dps points your managed to squeeze out of a random rotation during a run in a game? It's just sweating the small stuff, in my eyes.

Anyway, I don't want to spur on another argument, so I'll let this be my last post on the subject. It all comes down to what people consider to be fun, and we all have our own definitions and opinions of it. I just wanted to share mine.

detlef

10-26-2014, 08:06 AM

All I can tell you is if you find my posts irritating put me on ignore. I won't hold it against you (and if that sounds arrogant it wasn't meant to be).That's not fair. Only some of your posts are idiotic, not all of them. I'm pretty sure I've agreed completely with some of our other posts in other threads.

Malithar

10-26-2014, 08:15 AM

And I don't know these others you are talking about and they aren't here to defend themselves. So it's impossible for me to direct my argument at them

They graciously bowed out in favor of letting your ignorance/arrogance speak for them. I see that "getting the last word in" is coming along quite nicely. Expecting 30 pages by tomorrow. -.-

mattkoko

10-26-2014, 11:44 AM

I don't really want to get in the middle of this and I will refrain from agreeing or disagreeing with Dale an Afiana. However, I must say I can see the relationship between endgame as a sort of a job and meeting certain requirements and standards like a rl job. And this is not just ffxi. It is with any MMO that have endgame content. I mean look at the past of ffxi alone. We used to have dynamis shells salvage shells, sky and limbus shells and the list goes on. We even have endgame linkshells around now. I can't really comment on the endgame shells now because I cannot keep up with them, however I was in a few back in the day. And one of the things I hated most about them is because it was like having a job. Be there at a certain time for a certain amount of hours. Be there a certain number of times to be able to even lot on an armor piece. And if you miss a few events, YOUR FIRED! or in this case you are kicked. Now I only tried endgame a few times in those days, and the reason why is because, I already had 2 jobs and 2 bosses. I didn't need an in game job with a 3rd boss. or 4 or 5 depending on how many endgame LSes I chose to be in. Like I said, this is not just ffxi. I know my brother used to play WoW and he had to be on the computer to prepare for an event at certain times for his Guild.

Again, not taking sides. You can think of me as the judge by saying, "I allow this to be used as evidence" lol

And the reason I am refusing to takes sides is because I guess I kind of see both of Dale's and Afania's points and I agree and disagree to some extent on both. You can call me a coward but I just don't feel like being sucked into a 10 pages discussion talking in circles. I was already in a few debates with Dale in other threads and I bailed out 3 posts in, mainly because we both stated our opinions and we both didn't see eye to eye on them. I viewed it as a waste of time to express our opinions in a million different ways, just to come back to the same result. And I am completely okay with not getting the last word in.

By the way, I am not saying the need to get the last word in is a bad thing. Everyone has their own personality styles. I can tell that you 2 have a couple of the Expressor personality traits. Strong communicators, highly motivational and persuasive. There maybe even a bit of the Director personality traits in there. Taking charge, delegating to others to achieve results, unafraid to voice opinions. By the way, I am now using you 2 as a studying tool for My personal training test, as I need to be able to identify with multiple personality. It helps me figure out what appropriate actions to take with each client depending on their personality. See look at that shit. I can post in FFXI forum and study at the same time. Thank you for that :).

Well, I know this entire post was pretty much off topic, but really, who is keeping track anymore? In reality I am really just trying to lighten the mood a little.

Byrth

10-26-2014, 01:17 PM

No the system doesn't. At least not in regards to what I am referring to. Individual players do.

Let me give you an example:
1) Players do current battlefields to improve their character by obtaining drops.
2) Higher tier battlefields give more drops.
3) We're all mortal, so time is scarce.
1+3 = 4) It makes sense to optimize the number of drops/player.
5) Some setups are more efficient than others, allowing you to defeat higher tier battlefields or successfully lowman lower tier battlefields.

The system (#2, #5) is combined with relatively constant factors (#1, #3) and determines which setups and players are valued. It creates feelings like, "This dumbshit PLD is wasting our time (#3) and sucks as a DD and as a tank (#5)."

Now, I'm not saying that some people don't play the game to RP while being all buddy buddy with strangers in a monthly subscription internet chat room, but #1 seems pretty logical to me. Heck, at least one player leveled to 75 solo and without a subjob. People are strange. If I'm going to play a game, I'm going to play to win and I don't think that's some deviant attitude that needs to be eradicated.

As for the other shit, I'm only reading the rest of this post. Learn to be concise. Anyway:

Enmity - Enmity is broken at the moment. There are 2-3 DDs in the game capable of killing a iLevel 119 NM in a group without capping hate and having to serve as a tank. If it was fixed, jobs like RUN would have a much larger niche to fill. I'm an Aegis/Burtgang/Ochain PLD with full 119 AF/AF2 and I approve of this message.

Forced Delay - When you use a JA, WS, or Magic, you incur a mandatory 1~3 second delay. When you have capped Haste and all the STP that SE has thrown at us, this 2 second delay for WSs is something like 40% of your TP time. Activating a JA had better be worth 20% of a WS, or it's not worth using. This needs to be reduced. Jobs like DNC, PUP, RUN, etc. rely heavily on JA spamming. All magic DDs rely on magic spamming, etc.

Accuracy / Magic Accuracy - These are the only stats that SE can use in their current system to gear/buffcheck people... or, as happens currently, gear/buffcheck pets (who can't get buffs). Downside obviously being that pets can't receive real buffs at the moment. It would probably be a more manageable system if Acc/MAcc decreased slower after hitting a threshold Hit rate (like 75% or something). It's also a huge pain in the ass to have to bring along four jobs basically just for Acc buffs/Evasion debuffs, or to start a fight that you aren't fully prepared for and end up with a 20% hit rate that you don't have the jobs to combat at the moment. Without this issue, there would have been no real need to put 242 skill on iLevel 119 weapons.

Pet mechanics - Pets cannot receive buffs like party members, which renders pet jobs useless in higher tier fights where buffs are mandatory (specifically Haste buffs). Pets should be treated as party members.

The problem is that fixing these issues could have huge reverberations throughout the game. There are other changes that could be made to address these issues, but they are equally devastating (changing Haste from Delay*[1-Haste%] to Delay/[1+Haste%])

Overall, something should have been done about these issues before the cap was even raised from 75. Enmity should have been fixed before the cap was raised from 50.

Afania

10-26-2014, 03:54 PM

They graciously bowed out in favor of letting your ignorance/arrogance speak for them. I see that "getting the last word in" is coming along quite nicely. Expecting 30 pages by tomorrow. -.-

Malithar just opened a can of worms! I want to reply to Dale's last post, but if I do it'd start another 100 pages of debate >.>

By the way, I am not saying the need to get the last word in is a bad thing. Everyone has their own personality styles. I can tell that you 2 have a couple of the Expressor personality traits. Strong communicators, highly motivational and persuasive. There maybe even a bit of the Director personality traits in there. Taking charge, delegating to others to achieve results, unafraid to voice opinions.

Huh, irl I'm exactly the opposite lol, I'm always the listener/follower. So your observation isn't exactly accurate!

Afania

10-26-2014, 04:58 PM

I guess what I can't personally understand is how you can take a video game so effing seriously. You liken it to working a job or "providing good service to a client," but... it's a video game. It's made to be used as a form of entertainment, a way to relax after work, an escape from reality -- not a place to re-live all the RL bullsh*t and pressures many of us are trying try escape. Honestly, and don't take this personally, but the mindset that you seem to be advocating here and explaining as the "facts of FFXI" just make me want to give up on the game. There are so many cool things about the FFXI universe, and I'd like to experience everything, but the more I read about how seemingly terrible things get in end-game and how strict and uptight people seem to get about doing everything in just a few cookie-cutter ways (going by your testimony here) the less I'm inclined to continue logging in. I'd have to agree with Dale that that kind of attitude is likely a big part of the reason that these "job adjustment" arguments are even raised to begin with, seeing as how the min/max players you refer to in your posts have such a narrow-minded view of how the game should be played, which jobs are considered "worthless," which play-styles are "effective, etc. You say these are just facts on how the game works, but if it's actually possible to complete the same content with varying "worthless" jobs and different play-styles (as Dale has attested), then how is it a "fact?" Is it slower to progress that way? No doubt. But ultimately, in the end, what does it really matter? I'd much rather have something take an extra 20 minutes and be fun, rather than having it go quicker with a class/job that I hate. I would think I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I'm not saying you're wrong here -- as I'm sure you wouldn't be making these arguments if they weren't your actual experiences in-game with PUGs and such -- but I will say that it's a depressing thing to read. I just wish these games were about fun again and not about being some pseudo-second job, with spreadsheets, and maximizing numbers, and status reports, and meters to make sure that the peons are all running optimally in their hamster wheels at all times, etc. Ugh. I just want to relax, play, and have fun on a class/job I enjoy but it seems that's practically viewed as a crime these days depending on the job, or consequently, the way that job is played. I feel that the importance some people put on efficiency is honestly to a fault. I mean, when you're lying on your death bed in the twilight years of your life, who's going to care how many extra incremental dps points your managed to squeeze out of a random rotation during a run in a game? It's just sweating the small stuff, in my eyes.

Anyway, I don't want to spur on another argument, so I'll let this be my last post on the subject. It all comes down to what people consider to be fun, and we all have our own definitions and opinions of it. I just wanted to share mine.

Although you said it's your last post, I'm still kinda curious....

Most of the ppl I've met in FFXI doesn't view playing optimal playstyle this negatively, they just do it cuz it helps their friends/ls to get things done and that makes them happy. If everyone is happy, they're happy as well.

Some ppl do hate playing mage jobs, which is fact. But when it comes to playstyle, almost everyone I've ever pt with picked the same playstyle as what community thought to be the best, and all the players I've ever pt with are happy to do so....I've seen a WAR complained for being asked to play WHM, but I've never seen a WAR complaining about not be able to use a shield in an event in my life, ever. Most of the players are actually grateful to hear suggestions and opinion to play better so they can be more helpful to the team.

So yeah, I really don't understand what's reason to view different playstyle THIS negatively. I can understand the frustration if you can't play the job you want, but when it comes to playstyle, it's really hard to understand......when you help your team grind more stuff per hour and make everyone happy, don't you feel satisfied with them?

FYI, when I just started playing FFXI, my goal was to be a melee RDM and I did the same thing....I questioned the community "Why can't I play a playstyle I enjoy?" since I also enjoyed role playing. And that started 10 pages of debate toward playstyle in FFXI.

Now that I've done enough endgame, I have a drastically different POV regarding this matter. It's nowhere as negative as how you describe, and I still look for opportunity to play different playstyle and have fun all the time.FFXI certainly has grey area and room for different playstyle, you just have to find them and create opportunity to use them, instead of forcing everyone else to accommodate one individual's playstyle.

mattkoko

10-26-2014, 10:18 PM

Huh, irl I'm exactly the opposite lol, I'm always the listener/follower. So your observation isn't exactly accurate!

Meh, that was more for a laugh then anything else. Like I said, just trying to lighten the mood. It is nearly impossible to make an accurate guess of someones personality over the internet just judging by forum posts. I was just having fun really at other peoples expense lol.

Dale

10-26-2014, 11:39 PM

//////Deleted

Dale

10-26-2014, 11:41 PM

That's not fair. Only some of your posts are idiotic, not all of them. I'm pretty sure I've agreed completely with some of our other posts in other threads.

How was I being unfair?

I simply said if my posts irritate you to simply place me on ignore. Seems pretty fair to me.

Anyway, if you like some of my posts but don't like others - you can simply skip over the ones I write you don't agree with then. But my point is, trying to moderate me and tell me when I should be quiet and when I shouldn't be isn't going to work.

Dale

10-26-2014, 11:42 PM

//////deleted

mattkoko

10-26-2014, 11:50 PM

If calling people ignorant and arrogant is how you try to lighten the mood then you really suck at it.

Why so serious bro.

Dale

10-27-2014, 12:03 AM

Let me give you an example:
1) Players do current battlefields to improve their character by obtaining drops.
2) Higher tier battlefields give more drops.
3) We're all mortal, so time is scarce.
1+3 = 4) It makes sense to optimize the number of drops/player.
5) Some setups are more efficient than others, allowing you to defeat higher tier battlefields or successfully lowman lower tier battlefields.

The system (#2, #5) is combined with relatively constant factors (#1, #3) and determines which setups and players are valued. It creates feelings like, "This dumbshit PLD is wasting our time (#3) and sucks as a DD and as a tank (#5)."

Now, I'm not saying that some people don't play the game to RP while being all buddy buddy with strangers in a monthly subscription internet chat room, but #1 seems pretty logical to me. Heck, at least one player leveled to 75 solo and without a subjob. People are strange. If I'm going to play a game, I'm going to play to win and I don't think that's some deviant attitude that needs to be eradicated.

As for the other shit, I'm only reading the rest of this post. Learn to be concise. Anyway:

Enmity - Enmity is broken at the moment. There are 2-3 DDs in the game capable of killing a iLevel 119 NM in a group without capping hate and having to serve as a tank. If it was fixed, jobs like RUN would have a much larger niche to fill. I'm an Aegis/Burtgang/Ochain PLD with full 119 AF/AF2 and I approve of this message.

Forced Delay - When you use a JA, WS, or Magic, you incur a mandatory 1~3 second delay. When you have capped Haste and all the STP that SE has thrown at us, this 2 second delay for WSs is something like 40% of your TP time. Activating a JA had better be worth 20% of a WS, or it's not worth using. This needs to be reduced. Jobs like DNC, PUP, RUN, etc. rely heavily on JA spamming. All magic DDs rely on magic spamming, etc.

Accuracy / Magic Accuracy - These are the only stats that SE can use in their current system to gear/buffcheck people... or, as happens currently, gear/buffcheck pets (who can't get buffs). Downside obviously being that pets can't receive real buffs at the moment. It would probably be a more manageable system if Acc/MAcc decreased slower after hitting a threshold Hit rate (like 75% or something). It's also a huge pain in the ass to have to bring along four jobs basically just for Acc buffs/Evasion debuffs, or to start a fight that you aren't fully prepared for and end up with a 20% hit rate that you don't have the jobs to combat at the moment. Without this issue, there would have been no real need to put 242 skill on iLevel 119 weapons.

Pet mechanics - Pets cannot receive buffs like party members, which renders pet jobs useless in higher tier fights where buffs are mandatory (specifically Haste buffs). Pets should be treated as party members.

The problem is that fixing these issues could have huge reverberations throughout the game. There are other changes that could be made to address these issues, but they are equally devastating (changing Haste from Delay*[1-Haste%] to Delay/[1+Haste%])

Overall, something should have been done about these issues before the cap was even raised from 75. Enmity should have been fixed before the cap was raised from 50.

Well in an effort to be more concise I'll try keep my answer short :)

Just because you want to be able to do things faster doesn't mean the system itself forces players to exclude play-styles that kill slower. Not all of us play games to get something over with as quickly as possible. That's just your system and you are confusing that with the actual game's system.

Because as I said, this game rewards players of all kinds of different play-styles, rather they kill faster or slower. And just because a certain play-style may kill slower doesn't mean they still can't win at this game. Because they certainly can.

And I see no problem with the enmity system. I tank and kill level 119 NMs all the time on this game with other DDs. The smart ones know how to back off and stay alive. The more aggressive and reckless ones die. And I feel that's the way it should be.

I also think you are making too big a deal about a DD job being able to reach the enmity cap. The enmity cap is kept that way for a reason - so when a DD does a lot of damage the monster attacks them for it. And that's how it should be. Because a notorious monster shouldn't be a stupid brainless sprite. It should react to what other players do and if a Samurai busts out a massive skill chain on a monster the samurai should be attacked for it.

I'm too exhausted to address your other points so I'll just leave it at that.

Dale

10-27-2014, 12:05 AM

Deleted/////

mattkoko

10-27-2014, 12:05 AM

Anyway, if you like some of my posts but don't like others - you can simply skip over the ones I write you don't agree with then.

So basically you are saying, "agree with me or gtfo."

Dale

10-27-2014, 12:09 AM

So basically you are saying, "agree with me or gtfo."

That is not even close to what I said. And you took that quote out of context by leaving out the second part.

That poster was attempting to moderate my activity on this forum by telling me when it was appropriate for me to post and when it wasn't. I simply told him to either place me on ignore or skip over the posts I write he finds idiotic.

And that seems like a pretty reasonable solution to me. Because I'm not going to just post when he thinks I should.

mattkoko

10-27-2014, 12:17 AM

I'm not really trying to be serious. I just think calling someone ignorant and arrogant is just a really bad way to lighten the mood.

I didn't call you or anyone ignorant or arrogant. I simply stated that your need to get the last word in is linked to personality traits, as well as being unafraid to promote your own opinion. And I also said there is nothing wrong with that. That just isn't me. We have had our share of debates in the past. Sometimes I agree with yours, other times we did not see eye to eye. On those times we did not see eye to eye, I had a choice. Realizing that you feel the need to always have the last word, I could either choose to keep battling with you just to come back to a stalemate. Or just leave it as is. And I chose to leave it as is.

Dale

10-27-2014, 12:19 AM

I didn't call you or anyone ignorant or arrogant..

I apologize.

I got you mixed up with another poster. You had similar names and you were both elves. And I'm not defending the mix up - just clarifying it was an honest mistake.

They graciously bowed out in favor of letting your ignorance/arrogance speak for them. I see that "getting the last word in" is coming along quite nicely. Expecting 30 pages by tomorrow. -.-

That was the quote I was referring to. Which I now realize you didn't make.

Dale

10-27-2014, 12:20 AM

...You should probably read the names, and even look at the avatars. Might want to add blind to the list.

Yes I know, Why I should not visit forums when I am tired :)

Seillan

10-29-2014, 06:50 AM

Although you said it's your last post, I'm still kinda curious....

Most of the ppl I've met in FFXI doesn't view playing optimal playstyle this negatively, they just do it cuz it helps their friends/ls to get things done and that makes them happy. If everyone is happy, they're happy as well.

Some ppl do hate playing mage jobs, which is fact. But when it comes to playstyle, almost everyone I've ever pt with picked the same playstyle as what community thought to be the best, and all the players I've ever pt with are happy to do so....I've seen a WAR complained for being asked to play WHM, but I've never seen a WAR complaining about not be able to use a shield in an event in my life, ever. Most of the players are actually grateful to hear suggestions and opinion to play better so they can be more helpful to the team.

So yeah, I really don't understand what's reason to view different playstyle THIS negatively. I can understand the frustration if you can't play the job you want, but when it comes to playstyle, it's really hard to understand......when you help your team grind more stuff per hour and make everyone happy, don't you feel satisfied with them?

FYI, when I just started playing FFXI, my goal was to be a melee RDM and I did the same thing....I questioned the community "Why can't I play a playstyle I enjoy?" since I also enjoyed role playing. And that started 10 pages of debate toward playstyle in FFXI.

Now that I've done enough endgame, I have a drastically different POV regarding this matter. It's nowhere as negative as how you describe, and I still look for opportunity to play different playstyle and have fun all the time.FFXI certainly has grey area and room for different playstyle, you just have to find them and create opportunity to use them, instead of forcing everyone else to accommodate one individual's playstyle.

Sorry I'm late on this, I've been studying for a test non-stop the last few days.

It's not that I have a problem with playing your character well -- and believe me, I always try to play at the best of my ability -- it just bothers me how bent out of shape some people seem to get if someone doesn't meet their veteran expectations. This is compounded when said veteran makes the less experienced player feel like shit for not doing something just so. That kind of attitude seems far more prevalent now than it did back in the day (at least noticeably) and it just bothers me to no end. That's where the "sweating the small stuff" comes in. I think it's in the best interest for everyone involved that people takes a minute to step back once in awhile and remember that playing a game like this is supposed to be a fun past time and also that not every player is going to meet all the expectations you may have for them. That doesn't mean you should condescend to them and show your ass. Try helping them instead and politely explain how they could improve something. *Ahem* sorry, tangent.

Yes, I suppose I'd feel good helping to contribute to greater grinding efficiency, but like I said, I'm one of those people that would prefer everyone have fun playing a class they like, rather than picking the most optimum setup for squeezing out every little incremental bit of experience per hour or whatever. It's just not that important to me; it's a means to an end. Obviously there are many that disagree with me though, so it's not like my opinion matters much. I just like choices and variety and the ability to take advantage of it without being ostracized for "doing it wrong." That's the problem I have with the efficiency ideal; even when something is good enough to finish content, it's still not good enough for the masses of min/maxers, simply because it doesn't complete content at the same expedited rate as the tried and true, cookie cutter way of doing things.

I will agree that it's a good idea to play your job/class mainly as intended (meaning using the appropriate weapons for your job, not meleeing with a pure caster, etc) but I believe that every job should be given a fair shake, and I'd never hesitate to group with someone simply because they play a class/job that doesn't fit in with the status quo -- efficiency be damned.

In any case, I'm glad to hear that end game isn't quite as dreary as I was envisioning at least, and I appreciate you giving me some insight into it. I've really been enjoying the game so far and I plan on experiencing as much of it as I can.

Camate

10-30-2014, 04:26 AM

Malthar

10-30-2014, 11:08 AM

I have never started/instigated crap nor have I written completely disrespectful things.

Ramzi

10-30-2014, 11:42 AM

I have never started/instigated crap nor have I written completely disrespectful things.

He said Malithar - similar name, but someone different.

Draylo

10-30-2014, 12:17 PM

malthaaaaa

Eaglestrike

10-30-2014, 02:53 PM

Malithar

10-30-2014, 05:51 PM

Longtime player so pardon my cynicism but this sounds like it will be something that'll have very little effect for endgame content since it's built around not having haste? That would be quite sad, since you can cap haste with Trusts these days...

I read it more as they're doing it because one handed users fall behind when lacking capped haste, which tbh doesn't really make sense either, since everyone does. Not that they're doing it to be only in effect when you're not capped haste. Can't argue with stronger WSs at least, unless they buff Fudo while they're at it for the lawls. ;D

@Oracle: I call it like I see it. Read back over the past 10ish pages of derailed "I feel/think this way, so you're wrong" and tell me ignorance/arrogance aren't the exact definition of what was spewed about. Same deal with your little rage post about more refresh needing to be made available because your Whm couldn't keep up with anything less than 3 ballads from a Brd (thus Cor, Geo, and/or Rdm were not viable replacements for MP efficiency), despite multiple posters saying otherwise, from personal experience and with facts. No disrespect was meant by it, I tried to spin the advice in a way other than "suck less" or "learn2play." I'll keep advice for you on a more basic level next time. Besides, just for reference, who was the crazy searching down FFXIAH and LS community profiles, talking about knowing things bout LSs and such? Awwwkward.

Nebo

10-30-2014, 06:01 PM

Good news for one-handed weapon wielders!

The development team has been discussing revamping the damage over time of one-handed weapons, and they’ve decided to increase the power of high-level weapon skills. Part of this is giving consideration to those who solo and do not always utilize haste or other support-based spells.

Once all the details have been fleshed out we’ll make an announcement. :)

Who are these people who do not utilze haste and support spells? I have never met one.

LMAO this is not good news at all for ONe-Handed users. I've read the translations of this conversation. All this means is that the Dev team do not balance jobs damage dealing capabilites around endgame events....with support

WOW. But that makes sense when you consider the landscape of DD jobs in current endgame events.

On one side, you have an EXTREMELY OVERPOWERED job like SAM and on the other, you have a lot job's that can't possibly hope to compete with SAM. It's not even close. They aren't even playing the same game.

Why?

Did you seriously not consider SUPPORT BUFFS or the (trivial to reach) DELAY REDUCTION CAP during your job balancing? Why in the world would you balance job damage capabilites around low level and solo scenarios and not endgame....WITHOUT haste....guys, you can already cap delay reduction with just trusts....solo.

Here's a THF consideration for you. When playing in endgame events as a THF (with capped delay reduction and support buffs) => 60 second job abilities timers and diffucult to fulfill positional requirements are MUCH too unreasonable to attach to any kind of respectable Weapon Skill. Considering haste and support, every other DD job is building tp lightning fast, firing off immensely powerful Weapon Skills non-stop, without concern for position, aren't encumbered by excessive job ability delay spam, nor restricted by bottleneck job ability timers.

This situation creates many difficulties with utilizing sneak attack and Trick Attack in parties and offers no incentive for groups to accomodate THF's positional play style.

Metaking

10-30-2014, 08:34 PM

Sephiran

10-30-2014, 11:28 PM

Selindrile

10-30-2014, 11:35 PM

If you are using Trust, you aren't soloing. You are using Trust.

I think most people would disagree with you, you could make the argument that trust is "not solo" but by that logic you could say that Beastmasters, Pups and Smns aren't soloing unless they don't have a pet out, by and large when people refer to soloing in this game, they mean, "one player character", and some go further as to call dual boxing and the like soloing because it's controlled by one person, but very few go the other way, and classify trusts or other NPC characters as not solo.

At the end of the day, the meaning of solo in FFXI is up for discussion, but I doubt too many would use it in the way you just did.

Afania

10-30-2014, 11:47 PM

Sorry I'm late on this, I've been studying for a test non-stop the last few days.

It's not that I have a problem with playing your character well -- and believe me, I always try to play at the best of my ability -- it just bothers me how bent out of shape some people seem to get if someone doesn't meet their veteran expectations. This is compounded when said veteran makes the less experienced player feel like shit for not doing something just so. That kind of attitude seems far more prevalent now than it did back in the day (at least noticeably) and it just bothers me to no end. That's where the "sweating the small stuff" comes in. I think it's in the best interest for everyone involved that people takes a minute to step back once in awhile and remember that playing a game like this is supposed to be a fun past time and also that not every player is going to meet all the expectations you may have for them. That doesn't mean you should condescend to them and show your ass. Try helping them instead and politely explain how they could improve something. *Ahem* sorry, tangent.

Yes, I suppose I'd feel good helping to contribute to greater grinding efficiency, but like I said, I'm one of those people that would prefer everyone have fun playing a class they like, rather than picking the most optimum setup for squeezing out every little incremental bit of experience per hour or whatever. It's just not that important to me; it's a means to an end. Obviously there are many that disagree with me though, so it's not like my opinion matters much. I just like choices and variety and the ability to take advantage of it without being ostracized for "doing it wrong." That's the problem I have with the efficiency ideal; even when something is good enough to finish content, it's still not good enough for the masses of min/maxers, simply because it doesn't complete content at the same expedited rate as the tried and true, cookie cutter way of doing things.

I will agree that it's a good idea to play your job/class mainly as intended (meaning using the appropriate weapons for your job, not meleeing with a pure caster, etc) but I believe that every job should be given a fair shake, and I'd never hesitate to group with someone simply because they play a class/job that doesn't fit in with the status quo -- efficiency be damned.

In any case, I'm glad to hear that end game isn't quite as dreary as I was envisioning at least, and I appreciate you giving me some insight into it. I've really been enjoying the game so far and I plan on experiencing as much of it as I can.

I think you're talking about a different scenario then. My discussion with Dale was about "role playing in endgame content", 5 years of playing this game I've yet to see anyone playing a job in a extremely ineffective playstyle in endgame just for role playing purpose.

There are only 2 types of players that demand most optimal setup:

1) Pick up group leader with little to no confidence with pt performance. If you try to insert a job slightly different from bandwagon setup, they'd complain about wiping and losing 20 merit points in a BC. Those ppl are probably the majority that demands an optimal setup, and their motivation was certainly not because of elitism/arrogance, but because of fear and the lack of confidence....and in some case, the lack of knowledge.(If someone know the game mechanic/pt member inside out, that person won't lack confidence)

2) Real elitists who know(or claim to know) the game inside out, and they'd insist that their setup is mathematically the most efficient one because math/their experience said so.

Those are the minority, probably 1% of playerbase. It's often same person post on the forums and in game you'd rarely even get a chance to play with them.

Maybe my experience is just different from other ppl, idk. In past 6 months I can name less than 3 person in PUG with an attitude issue. Most of the PUG has no issue accepting my none bandwagon jobs even if it's not in /shout, although sometimes I did talk a lot to convince them to let me join.

Afania

10-30-2014, 11:49 PM

I think most people would disagree with you, you could make the argument that trust is "not solo" but by that logic you could say that Beastmasters, Pups and Smns aren't soloing unless they don't have a pet out, by and large when people refer to soloing in this game, they mean, "one player character", and some go further as to call dual boxing and the like soloing because it's controlled by one person, but very few go the other way, and classify trusts or other NPC characters as not solo.

At the end of the day, the meaning of solo in FFXI is up for discussion, but I doubt too many would use it in the way you just did.

Since you can't use trusts in certain BC/instances, solo isn't the same as using a trust IMO.

Selindrile

10-30-2014, 11:52 PM

Since you can't use trusts in certain BC/instances, solo isn't the same as using a trust IMO.

You can only charm monsters in certain BCs, you can't bring outside buffs into some but can in others, I'm not sure that factors such as this should really be the deciding factor over whether we consider trust "solo" or not, honestly the biggest argument I can think of against calling it solo would be the fact they show up in the party list. But if that were the deciding factor, Adventuring NPCs would count as Solo, but trust wouldn't, so not sure that's a valid argument either.

A player with a pet out is still soloing.

Calling pets is a Job Ability or a spell.

If we say that a Blm or Monk using job abilities / spells is soloing, then it is ok to say that for pet jobs too.

I agree, and calling trusts is a spell! I'm glad we're on the same page here!

Nebo

10-31-2014, 01:20 AM

i don't know nebo if a party has a sam it gets real easy to sata, you know the sam is going to be in the monsters face, might as well make it easier for him to stay there ^.^/ and once its planted on him go around back and trick attack, well worth the dmg between a 3 or 4k evisceration vrs a 9k rudras.

Unless the SAM doesn't sit still, or there is more than one, or everyone has already reached the hate cap and the mob is just spinning like a top.

Nebo

10-31-2014, 01:26 AM

Those are the minority, probably 1% of playerbase.

I agree that those are the minority of the playerbase but they are the majority of players that shout for PUGs for events. Players that shout to put pick up groups together are a minority unto themselves.

imo this is also a symptom of the poor grouping/recruiting mechanics in the game.

Afania

10-31-2014, 03:00 AM

You can only charm monsters in certain BCs, you can't bring outside buffs into some but can in others, I'm not sure that factors such as this should really be the deciding factor over whether we consider trust "solo" or not, honestly the biggest argument I can think of against calling it solo would be the fact they show up in the party list. But if that were the deciding factor, Adventuring NPCs would count as Solo, but trust wouldn't, so not sure that's a valid argument either.

I agree, and calling trusts is a spell! I'm glad we're on the same page here!

What I meant was, if you try to solo BC/instance, you won't have haste buffs. You can get buffs from outside, but then it's not the same as solo...you need a friend/mule to buff you outside.

The entire argument was about "DPS increase is useless cuz we have haste all the time, even solo", but that's not entirely true if you solo BC/instance. Unless you have a friend/mule to buff you before enter, you can't get haste buffs solo in BC/instances.

I don't really care about the true definition of solo, the point was whether there's a situation that you'd use 1h weapons without haste buff or not.

Afania

10-31-2014, 03:03 AM

imo this is also a symptom of the poor grouping/recruiting mechanics in the game.

There's nothing you can do about grouping/recruiting mechanics if the inherent issue is the job balance though. Even if you make all DD job "DPS role" and make auto pt generator, ppl still gonna instantly drop pt after they see a none SAM DD in pt.

Selindrile

10-31-2014, 04:07 AM

I don't really care about the true definition of solo, the point was whether there's a situation that you'd use 1h weapons without haste buff or not.

Whereas I only chimed in to talk about the definition of solo and the meaning. I agree there are few situations you'd use 1h weapons without a haste buff, Dyna and Salvage come to mind as Thf, I do these without haste buffs always.

Raging_Oracle

10-31-2014, 04:51 AM

I read it more as they're doing it because one handed users fall behind when lacking capped haste, which tbh doesn't really make sense either, since everyone does. Not that they're doing it to be only in effect when you're not capped haste. Can't argue with stronger WSs at least, unless they buff Fudo while they're at it for the lawls. ;D

Stronger WS = All For It, maybe it will it will allow one-handed weapons to reach the consistency of VS.
Fudo reference = LOL

@Oracle: I call it like I see it. Read back over the past 10ish pages of derailed "I feel/think this way, so you're wrong" and tell me ignorance/arrogance aren't the exact definition of what was spewed about.

"Call it it like you see it": Well from what I saw you just jumped in to attack and slap the guy, then ran away. I would guess that there were many post made by a handful of posters that in your superior opinion where ignorant/arrogant, but you picked on and insulted the guy that was debating points with 5 others posters and provided nothing other than an insult. Cant see the honor in that approach.

Same deal with your little rage post about more refresh needing to be made available because your Whm couldn't keep up with anything less than 3 ballads from a Brd (thus Cor, Geo, and/or Rdm were not viable replacements for MP efficiency), despite multiple posters saying otherwise, from personal experience and with facts.

That post was about 18 man pug parties, so dismissing comments about what people do in a lowman imho is reasonable. Reading is fundamental (or maybe reviewing what you "see" before "you call it"). Cant tell me that using 1 whm for an 18man run or using 4 jobs to do the job of a single job is the answer for an 18 party with multiple whms is the answer for efficiency. But see, I didn't have a problem with those comments so much, I did have a problem with you proclaiming that you know what I do and what I don't do as if you knew, when you actually didn't know anything about what I do and don't do. I offered you ways to see exactly what I do, since you had such conviction. As a person ( by your own admission) that doesn't lead 18 man parties, rarely partakes in 18 man parties and doesn't hardly ever join pug groups - frankly I don't see how you could bring yourself to comment on the OP anyway - but you did. And now your at it again directly spouting how ignorant/arrogant some one else is - there's "Awwwkward" for you.

No disrespect was meant by it, I tried to spin the advice in a way other than "suck less" or "learn2play." I'll keep advice for you on a more basic level next time. Besides, just for reference, who was the crazy searching down FFXIAH and LS community profiles, talking about knowing things bout LSs and such? Awwwkward.

Sure there disrespect meant by it, the same way it was meant and purposeful in this regard, you cant directly insult someone and then say "I meant no disrespect". As for advise, I do things you don't, so how can you advise me again? Lastly, I do like to know what I am speaking to before I speak so hate the fact that I asked about ya. You maybe should have done the same thing before you proclaimed that I don't do the things that I do. You keep slapping people with this Ignorance/Arrogant thing, but meh what about the 4 fingers pointing back at you.

Dale

10-31-2014, 08:31 AM

Who are these people who do not utilze haste and support spells? I have never met one.

I can relate to this developer's post because this is the main reason I usually almost always solo on my RDM instead of my PLD. My Red Mage has Haste 2 and my Paladin doesn't.

So if they were to make some of the weapon skills my Paladin has more powerful - such as boosting the power of sanguine blade etc. - it would encourage me to solo as my Paladin more often instead of always opting for my Red Mage since he has haste 2. So I might be one of the people the developer is referring to.

Louispv

10-31-2014, 08:43 AM

Dale

10-31-2014, 08:46 AM

Nah, you'd probably just sub WAR or RUN to your RDM so they'd have haste 2 AND sanguine blade, fixing nothing.

If I subbed WAR or RUN to my Red Mage though when I solo I wouldn't have access to paralyna, erase etc. Spells like that which help me out a lot when I solo.

So I don't think it would have that effect on me. At least not generally, and would probably just make my PLD/SCH more appealing for solo play instead of me usually opting for my RDM/SCH instead. Because I doubt I would be willing to give up my counter magic just for the sake of a higher damage weapon skill.

Draylo

10-31-2014, 09:27 AM

Bring Remedy and Panacea then you wont need those /whm spell.

Dale

10-31-2014, 09:33 AM

Bring Remedy and Panacea then you wont need those /whm spell.

I have too many things to spend my gil on as it is. :)

Maybe for certain important fights I wanted to solo would be willing to splurge for something like that. But not for general soloing.

Sephiran

10-31-2014, 09:48 AM

You can only charm monsters in certain BCs, you can't bring outside buffs into some but can in others, I'm not sure that factors such as this should really be the deciding factor over whether we consider trust "solo" or not, honestly the biggest argument I can think of against calling it solo would be the fact they show up in the party list. But if that were the deciding factor, Adventuring NPCs would count as Solo, but trust wouldn't, so not sure that's a valid argument either.

I agree, and calling trusts is a spell! I'm glad we're on the same page here!

Here's my definition: You are soloing when you are controlling a single character and calling forth NPC's only allowable by virtue of your job with NPC's that the game forces you to fight alongside, when applicable. Trust magic is not derived directly from one's job and thus is not soloing in my opinion.

That's just my take on it though. You're free to disagree with me.

Nebo

10-31-2014, 12:15 PM

I can relate to this developer's post because this is the main reason I usually almost always solo on my RDM instead of my PLD. My Red Mage has Haste 2 and my Paladin doesn't.

So if they were to make some of the weapon skills my Paladin has more powerful - such as boosting the power of sanguine blade etc. - it would encourage me to solo as my Paladin more often instead of always opting for my Red Mage since he has haste 2. So I might be one of the people the developer is referring to.

Imo, This is all ENTIRELY beside the point. You don't balance the damage dealing capabilities of a job only based around solo content without buffs. This is an MMO. 90% of meaningful endgame content is group oriented. You are almost never not gonig to have a job with haste or support buffs of some kind (even solo with trusts...where you can very easily CAP delay reduction).

To balance WS damage while not taking into consideration such a vast amount of content is mind boggling. To say that 1 handed WS's are fine and they plan make up the difference with autoattack damage (their first response) shows a distinct lack of insight into the game itself. It wasn't until several JP players pointed out that most content takes place with capped delay reduction that they said "Oh sh*t, that's right, haste and buffs are a thing. I guess 1 handers really can't compete at endgame support levels...we'll look into that"

It would not suprise me at all to learn that they think THF is totally fine as a DD becuase they test all this garbage without haste and buffs. Of course then dagger guaranteed crit WS and SATA timers seem competetive. But haste and buffs don't do for THF what they do for other DDs and its things like this they don't seem to consider (assuming it's not just that they want THF to be sh*t tier...it's entirely possible that they do).

Dale

11-01-2014, 12:13 AM

This is all ENTIRELY beside the point. You don't balance the damage dealing capabilities of a job only based around solo content without buffs. This is an MMO. 90% of meaningful endgame content is group oriented. You are almost never not gonig to have a job with haste or support buffs of some kind (even solo with trusts...where you can CAP delay reduction).

To balance WS damage while not taking into consideration such a vast amount of content is mind boggling. To say that 1 handed WS's are fine and they plan make up the difference with autoattack damage (their first response) shows a distinct lack of insight into the game itself. It wasn't until several JP players pointed out that most content takes place with capped delay reduction that they said "Oh sh*t, that's right, haste and buffs are a thing. I guess 1 handers really can't compete at endgame suppoert levels...we'll look into that"

It would not suprise me at all to learn that they THF is totally fine as a DD becuase they test all this garbage without haste and buffs. Of course then Dagger Guaranteed crit WS and SATA timers are competetive. But haste and buffs don't do for THF what they do for other DDs and its things like this they don't seem to consider (assuming it's no just that they want THF to be shit tier...it's entirely possible that they do).

I think I understand what you are saying. But I don't see the harm in giving soloist some consideration now and then, even if it is an MMORRPG. So I believe this is just meant more as a nice little change for people like me who would like to solo more effectively on our one-handed jobs that don't have haste. It's not intended to be a grander scheme to try and balance the damage capabilities of one-handed jobs while in a group-context. At least that's not the impression I get when I read the developer's post anyway.

Olor

11-01-2014, 03:02 AM

Honestly it is probably meant as a sop to BSTs more than anything, but if that's the case further solidifying us as a job that has no place in groups isn't a solution it's an insult. They need to give us (AT LEAST) native dual wield 1 or 2 so we can sub a real DD sub job to make up for our complete lack of any offensive JA. Or they need to give us a major boost to scythe skill and make scythe suck less and put us on real scythes. We HAVE NO PLACE in group content and that's the problem. I really don't need a boost to soloing. I want to be able to play my favourite job with my friends, and not just when the content is easy enough that we can afford a pity slot.

Dale

11-01-2014, 03:19 AM

Olor

11-01-2014, 05:04 AM

What does sop mean? I'm not familiar with that term.

sop: noun \ˈsäp\

: something that is done or given to someone in order to prevent trouble, gain support, etc
: a conciliatory or propitiatory bribe, gift, or gesture

Middle English soppe, from Old English sopp; akin to Old English sūpan to swallow.
First Known Use: before 12th century

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sop

A sop is a piece of bread soaked in a liquid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOP

Here you go. Hope that helps. Basically imagine a soggy peice of bread dipped in thin soup. That's what a sop is. It might fill the belly, but it's still an insult.

Dale

11-01-2014, 05:30 AM

Here you go. Hope that helps. Basically imagine a soggy peice of bread dipped in thin soup. That's what a sop is. It might fill the belly, but it's still an insult.

I see. Yeah that clears it up and thanks for the clarification.

But aren't Beastmasters already one of the preeminent solo jobs on this game? I don't play the job, but I was under the impression they were already very good at solo.

Ulth

11-01-2014, 06:18 AM

Unless the SAM doesn't sit still, or there is more than one, or everyone has already reached the hate cap and the mob is just spinning like a top.

You forgot knockback having people standing with their backs to walls, and when people fight on the very edge of combat range. Sure you can tell them to step forward, but a lot of the time it is just too much work for them to step forward for 2 seconds.

It would not suprise me at all to learn that they THF is totally fine as a DD becuase they test all this garbage without haste and buffs. Of course then Dagger Guaranteed crit WS and SATA timers are competetive. But haste and buffs don't do for THF what they do for other DDs and its things like this they don't seem to consider (assuming it's no just that they want THF to be shit tier...it's entirely possible that they do).
I bet is has more to do with that stupid census they did. Thief was one of the most played jobs, huzzah thief must have nothing wrong with it! Nope, the reason so many people have thief leveled is for old content they solo for money like salvage and dynamis.

Then there are the people who actually play thief and it's our favorite job. We know what's wrong with it even have ideas how to make it better, but it's like screaming at a brick wall.

Olor

11-01-2014, 06:42 AM

I see. Yeah that clears it up and thanks for the clarification.

But aren't Beastmasters already one of the preeminent solo jobs on this game? I don't play the job, but I was under the impression they were already very good at solo.

Only old content. That's the point, I don't care about being good at solo. Every job is good at solo now. There is literally nothing relevant a bst can solo that other jobs can't do better. But they are also the most likely job going out there with little/no haste.

Nebo

11-01-2014, 06:51 AM

I bet is has more to do with that stupid census they did. Thief was one of the most played jobs, huzzah thief must have nothing wrong with it! Nope, the reason so many people have thief leveled is for old content they solo for money like salvage and dynamis.

Then there are the people who actually play thief and it's our favorite job. We know what's wrong with it even have ideas how to make it better, but it's like screaming at a brick wall.

I don't doubt it. But personally, I wouldn't want to have to be the one to sift through all that vitriol on the Thief forums.

I get the feeling that because THF has a passive trait that is desired for certain battles, they think that should be enough. That a job to be DESIRED for something (if at least part of the time) is sufficient. I disagree. I find that to be poor design. In an MMO like this it should be about skill level, creating more powerful gearsets and improving the actual game play experience. I sincerely hope they do give a second look to all 1 handed DPS jobs without the "we weren't considering things like haste and support buffs" goggles on.

But you are right there are a lot of clunky things that get in the way THF endgame damage. Not the least of which is players that don't stand close enough to the mob for you to be in melee range when behind them. This happens to me at least once every day.

Players move around constanly
Mobs change hate targets constantly due to fluctuating enmity spikes
Unreasonably long recast timers on WS JA's
Comparatively weak weaponskills (when not using SA/TA)
Knockback effects
Then you have all the lead time it takes to make positional things happen or recover from them when they don't.
Regular Combat Job Ability Delay (SA/AuraSteal/Conspirator/TA/Bully/Feint/AC)

And it just keeps getting worse and worse the more haste & support the party has. In a FFXI with fast battles, capped delay reduction and endgame support buffs....there's no way this doesn't deserve adjustment from the dev team.

Olor

11-01-2014, 06:54 AM

They should just allow THF to sneak attack/trick attack if they aren't at the top of the hate list. This positional stuff is nonsense in modern XI.

But you are right there are a lot of clunky things that get in the way THF endgame damage. Not the least of which is players that don't stand close enough to the mob for you to be in melee range when behind them. This happens to me at least once every day.

This would happen to me with trust all the time too, engaging at the absolute furthest possible distance from the mob. So annoying.

Nebo

11-01-2014, 07:23 AM

I also wanted to comment on this aspect of their response:

However, one-handed jobs also possess unique abilities such as Treasure Hunter and Blue Magic as well, so we will consider such things as we plan for adjustments.
When we have worked out the details we will be sure to tell you on the forums, so please wait for a little while.

EVERY DAMAGE DEALING JOB HAS UNIQUE ABILITIES

SAM is the master of creating skillchains and TP manipulation.

WAR has tanking abilities, retaliation, enfeebling WS and has mastery over many weapons.

MNK has high survivability, Counter, HP Recovery/Party HP boost, and can switch to non elemental magic damage with formless strikes

DRK has HP/MP drain WS, Dark/ Black Magic

DRG has a pet that changes utility with Sub, enmity manipulation, enfeebling abilities, jumps

RNG has treasure Hunter, decoy shot, low enmity and safe range DPS

TREASURE HUNTER IS NOT A REASON FOR THF TO BE PURPOSEFULLY WEAK

Camiie

11-01-2014, 07:38 AM

Afania

11-01-2014, 12:54 PM

Before SE move on and buff other DD jobs, can we get a SAM nerf plz?

Maikeru_Sylph

11-01-2014, 05:33 PM

Before SE move on and buff other DD jobs, can we get a SAM nerf plz?
All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

Mitruya

11-01-2014, 08:38 PM

I will dance in the streets the day PUP is actually wanted for anything.
I wholeheartedly agree with Camiie's post.

Camiie

11-01-2014, 10:10 PM

Before SE move on and buff other DD jobs, can we get a SAM nerf plz?

Nerf what exactly? TP gain? Weapon skill power? Attack power? Accuracy? Weapon damage? Hasso?

Dale

11-02-2014, 12:03 AM

Only old content. That's the point, I don't care about being good at solo. Every job is good at solo now. There is literally nothing relevant a bst can solo that other jobs can't do better. But they are also the most likely job going out there with little/no haste.

But my Paladin really isn't good at general soloing. That's what I'm trying to get across. For example: when I'm running around doing coalition quests, colonization and lair reives, farming etc.... it's just pointless for me to ever use my Paladin for it because haste makes my RDM so much better at it. It may not be the only example out there, but I do think it's a relevant one. I even use my RDM when I go out farming items intended for my Paladin, which is kind ironic.

Haste generally is just very powerful. I know because I have been completely spoiled by haste 2 on my RDM and it's hard for me to live without it now lol. So I think the developers are trying to address a real issue here where jobs that have access to haste do enjoy a significant advantage over those who don't. So I think it's a smart design decision to try and increase the weapon skill power of these jobs. Because as an earlier post eluded to - one handed jobs tend to rely on auto attacks more for their damage and haste affects this in a big way.

I understand some of the points you and others make about this not being an answer to solve other problems and job balance in general. That's probably true. But regardless, I do think this is a real issue that needs some attention and I'm glad to see the developers are addressing it.

Hope that clears up what I'm trying to say.

Dale

11-02-2014, 12:15 AM

What SE needs to do is focus on how jobs perform in their respective roles within a group setting and ignore any advantages outside of that completely. Whether a job can solo well or not should have no negative bearing on what it's capable of in a group. I'd feel the same if FFXI had a heavy PVP element. PVP shouldn't affect PVE. Solo shouldn't affect group play. Jobs shouldn't be one trick ponies or one event wonders. They should be able to contribute meaningfully in all aspects of group play. Sorry, devs, if that's too hard for you. Sorry players if you're afraid someone else with a different job will horn in on your turf. That's the way it should be.

You make an interesting point and I agree with it in spirit - but I feel all jobs already can contribute meaningfully to a group.

Chances are if a job is really good at solo it's going to be pretty powerful and will be able to hold its own in a group as well. It's been my experience the stigma against jobs that are good at solo not being good in groups is more a result of bias/misunderstanding and or a un-willingness of that group to accept anything less than perfect.

I went through this back in the old days when I played a PLD/WHM and was constantly derided as being a solo job that sucked in groups. I can't tell you the amount of insults and mockery I endured. However once I found a group of open-minded friends willing to accommodate my play-style we excelled, beat CoP and succeeded in sky. Something I was told I would never be able to do yet I proved every one of them wrong.

Dale

11-02-2014, 12:23 AM

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

I don't think Samurais need a nerf either.

They are capable of extremely high burst damage - no doubt about it. But due precisely to the enmity cap you mention I think that helps keep them in check and from becoming over-powered.

Kensagaku

11-02-2014, 12:29 AM

Dale

11-02-2014, 12:36 AM

I disagree with helping "keep them in check." In most situations, your SAM doesn't even need to throw up Third Eye/Seigan, /nin shadows, etc; they just bull right through the big targets with multiple Fudos while your stunners keep TP moves from seriously damaging them, meaning that they can go nuts with no fear of retribution besides auto attacks and the occasional missed stun, which in most cases your WHM can deal with quickly. With the DD Zerg/Stun mentality most EG has going for it now, SAM is unrivaled for that burst damage, and has no reason to hold back on it; the enmity cap does nothing for them, except make Overwhelm a little harder to position when mobs start pingponging due to multiple capped hate DDs. Even then they have more than enough damage to not worry about it.

But the situation you describe seems more like an example of a well-organized strategy using high burst damage coupled with well-timed stuns. It doesn't seem like the abuse of a over-powered job to me.

The enmity cap is still a factor because that's why you have to bring stuns in the first place. So the Samurai doesn't die from auto attacks in the aftermath of a nasty TP move. So I don't see any problem with this.

Ulth

11-02-2014, 01:31 AM

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

Yep the job that gets shouted for is RNG, but that is also a symptom of the problem. First the reason people shout for RNG, but not SAM is the quality of SAM matters more than a RNG. For AA fights a poorly geared RNG will make due, but in delve which calls for a SAM, you actually need a geared one that knows what they are doing. That's why people don't shout for SAMs, they use ones they know, that they know are geared. But the problem that is making both of these jobs more powerful is the stats on gear. If you look closely the amount of store tp on gear has been steadily rising. This is a very good thing for jobs that have high delay weapons like SAM and RNG. On the contrast jobs with low delay weapons benefit much more from gear that increases number of hits; these are your one handed jobs. However since the addition of ilvl the stats for extra hits are actually going down.

Camiie

11-02-2014, 03:28 AM

You make an interesting point and I agree with it in spirit - but I feel all jobs already can contribute meaningfully to a group.

Chances are if a job is really good at solo it's going to be pretty powerful and will be able to hold its own in a group as well. It's been my experience the stigma against jobs that are good at solo not being good in groups is more a result of bias/misunderstanding and or a un-willingness of that group to accept anything less than perfect.

WAR/DNC with dual axes (in which case he's nerfing himself)

versus

BST/DNC with dual axes and the best DD pet available

Both using Ruinator. Both using essentially the same gear. I guarantee you that the WAR wins every time. Now compare the BST to a WAR going all out with GA and /SAM. The WAR wins by an even greater margin. The BST doesn't have the DPS tools that the WAR has and the pet doesn't make up the difference.

Byrth

11-02-2014, 03:51 AM

People don't shout for SAMs because they're a dime a dozen. The second best weapon for the job drops from an event that takes 20 minutes with a bad group.

Afania

11-02-2014, 04:21 AM

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

Unless we're playing a different game, I'm fairly certain that ppl /shout for SAM more than MNK and RNG.

The concept of SC worked in FFXI in 2003, but it certainly doesn't work NOW cuz DD gain TP faster than their WS animation. If having 2 DD ended up doing less dmg than 1 DD solo SC, something is wrong with the design. If you're picking DD jobs because of their access to WS, instead of that job's ability to do dmg, something is wrong. Having SC doing this much dmg, severally limited the amount of choice we can make when it comes to pt set up and choosing WS/playstyle.

The era of everyone coordinating for SC+MB is gone, just let it go already. Unless SE nerf DD TP speed back to 2003 era, I don't see how it can work.

As for RNG, RNG is a one trick pony, you either use it when you feel like you need it(too afraid to wipe with PUG in BC I mean), or you don't invite RNG at all, let's just leave it alone.

MNK is just fine.

Afania

11-02-2014, 04:36 AM

I don't think Samurais need a nerf either.

They are capable of extremely high burst damage - no doubt about it. But due precisely to the enmity cap you mention I think that helps keep them in check and from becoming over-powered.

Dale, if you don't do endgame or only do endgame on DD PLD, can you please don't make comment about this issue? Sorry I know I sound offensive, but I'm just stating a fact.....the fact that you talk about enmity cap and SAM in the same topic shows that you were focusing on the wrong side of the argument and it's not fixing the job balance issue at all.

The fact is, SAM is just THAT ahead of other DD, AND the SC mechanics is preventing other players to play other DD job even if there's a pt spot open.

People don't shout for SAMs because they're a dime a dozen. The second best weapon for the job drops from an event that takes 20 minutes with a bad group.

The 2nd best weapon for the job takes 20 min to get isn't even the issue, most job's 2nd best weapon are just as easy, or almost just as easy.

SAM using the 2nd best weapon still beats other mythic DD is the issue.

But the situation you describe seems more like an example of a well-organized strategy using high burst damage coupled with well-timed stuns. It doesn't seem like the abuse of a over-powered job to me.

The enmity cap is still a factor because that's why you have to bring stuns in the first place. So the Samurai doesn't die from auto attacks in the aftermath of a nasty TP move. So I don't see any problem with this.

None of the event in this game needs stun to clear with a SAM, enmity cap isn't the reason. Stuns makes thing faster, that's why ppl bring stuns..

Again, this issue has nothing to do with enmity cap, stuns nor zerging. It's just simple math and experience showing that SAM is that far ahead of other DDs.

Maikeru_Sylph

11-02-2014, 04:50 AM

None of the event in this game needs stun to clear with a SAM, enmity cap isn't the reason. Stuns makes thing faster, that's why ppl bring stuns..

Again, this issue has nothing to do with enmity cap, stuns nor zerging. It's just simple math and experience showing that SAM is that far ahead of other DDs.
God I wish this were true because I'd love to do delve without shouting for SCH or even going SCH myself. People can't beat Tojil without stun. It's been proven time and time again. I feel like I'm on some magical, non-existent server because people don't beat delve on my server without stun and sure as hell don't clear the entire zone in 20 mins.

Afania

11-02-2014, 05:05 AM

God I wish this were true because I'd love to do delve without shouting for SCH or even going SCH myself. People can't beat Tojil without stun. It's been proven time and time again. I feel like I'm on some magical, non-existent server because people don't beat delve on my server without stun and sure as hell don't clear the entire zone in 20 mins.

You can change server! :D

Metaking

11-02-2014, 07:26 AM

there are a decent number of jobs where the second best weapon isnt a 20 min affair, and what byrth means on sams is you dont shout for them, because you ask your ls and like 20 people / . @Maikeru yea i have never beat a tojil without a stuner but i had a group at one point that are average time was 15 mins and had one run take only 13 mins (mnk drk blu whm brd rdm[before haste2 btw]), mind you, this was an op crew, and not a random pug group.

Atomic_Skull

11-02-2014, 10:23 AM

People don't shout for SAMs because they're a dime a dozen. The second best weapon for the job drops from an event that takes 20 minutes with a bad group.

No the reason they are a dime a dozen is because SAM the most facerollingest faceroll job in the entire game.

Dale

11-02-2014, 10:46 PM

Dale, if you don't do endgame or only do endgame on DD PLD, can you please don't make comment about this issue? Sorry I know I sound offensive, but I'm just stating a fact.....the fact that you talk about enmity cap and SAM in the same topic shows that you were focusing on the wrong side of the argument and it's not fixing the job balance issue at all.

The fact is, SAM is just THAT ahead of other DD, AND the SC mechanics is preventing other players to play other DD job even if there's a pt spot open..

You don't know what activities I do on the game Afania. So can you please not make a comment about that issue? And I certainly don't only do endgame on DD paladin. Though DD paladins are capable of doing endgame activities if they want to. Sorry if I sound offensive, but I'm just stating a fact. :)

We've already gone over this, but the only thing keeping other DD jobs from party spots are players like you who treat video games like a business rather the entertainment it's suppose to be. Because I do endgame content all the time without samurais in the group.

None of the event in this game needs stun to clear with a SAM, enmity cap isn't the reason. Stuns makes thing faster, that's why ppl bring stuns..

Again, this issue has nothing to do with enmity cap, stuns nor zerging. It's just simple math and experience showing that SAM is that far ahead of other DDs.

People bring stuns for the obvious reason - to stun things. I suppose you can argue they bring them to make things faster in the sense people aren't dying or needing the extra heals/support as a result. But I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

Not everything is about math and doing the most damage. There are other elements of the game at play. Such as enmity/defense and simply staying alive. You act as if Samurais can just waltz up to anything on this game and unload its full damage potential without having to worry about staying alive as a result. But that hasn't been my experience and they just aren't this god class you make them out to be. But who knows, maybe I just haven't met the right one. Because again: in my experience a reckless Samurai requires a lot of support to keep alive and if it isn't played smartly all that damage you speak of can quickly become a burden on the group rather than an asset.

That was the point I was trying to make in regards to enmity.

Dale

11-02-2014, 10:50 PM

WAR/DNC with dual axes (in which case he's nerfing himself)

versus

BST/DNC with dual axes and the best DD pet available

Both using Ruinator. Both using essentially the same gear. I guarantee you that the WAR wins every time. Now compare the BST to a WAR going all out with GA and /SAM. The WAR wins by an even greater margin. The BST doesn't have the DPS tools that the WAR has and the pet doesn't make up the difference.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the WAR wins every time? Wins in what way?

If you are referring to damage, what does that matter? Just because a duel wielding warrior with a pair of axes can do more damage than duel wielding Beastmaster with a pair of axes doesn't mean the beastmaster doesn't contribute to a group. It still brings some offense to the group with the added benefit of a pet which can come in handy. For example: I've done a few AA fights where the beastmaster pet saved us from a wipe.

I don't understand why everything needs to be viewed in the context of who can do the most damage.

Camiie

11-02-2014, 11:41 PM

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the WAR wins every time? Wins in what way?

If you are referring to damage, what does that matter? Just because a duel wielding warrior with a pair of axes can do more damage than duel wielding Beastmaster with a pair of axes doesn't mean the beastmaster doesn't contribute to a group. It still brings some offense to the group with the added benefit of a pet which can come in handy. For example: I've done a few AA fights where the beastmaster pet saved us from a wipe.

You claimed that a job that can solo can hold its own in group play, and that simply isn't the case. Now I get that "holding its own" is subjective, but when your job's sole purpose is DPS and even at your best you are orders of magnitude behind someone half-assing another job then something is terribly wrong in my opinion.

I don't understand why everything needs to be viewed in the context of who can do the most damage.

Because that is what the job is there for. To not simply do damage, but to do the most damage possible.

Dale

11-03-2014, 12:11 AM

You claimed that a job that can solo can hold its own in group play, and that simply isn't the case. Now I get that "holding its own" is subjective, but when your job's sole purpose is DPS and even at your best you are orders of magnitude behind someone half-assing another job then something is terribly wrong in my opinion.

Because that is what the job is there for. To not simply do damage, but to do the most damage possible.

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible? As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

Mitruya

11-03-2014, 12:31 AM

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible? As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

Dale

11-03-2014, 12:43 AM

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

I understand your point - but the benefits of having a pet are not only useful when solo. As I explained earlier, those pets make good off-tanks and that can assist a group as well. I've had a losing battlefield saved due to a beastmaster pet.

Besides: why is there this belief that doing more damage makes someone OP anyway. Why? Some players like to stand out and do the more damage than others. So I see no reason why a job like that can't be available. People are exaggerating the importance of doing more damage in my opinion. It's not that big of a deal and I've yet to see a Samurai I would consider over-powered.

Your initial point is well-taken but that's not SE's fault and they can't fix a stubborn and misguided player mentality. The truth is you do not need maximum damage to do the content on this game. So SE has already done their part to combat this problem by virtue of the game's design. Players should instead shun these players who are so picky about who they play with and obsess over minor details on a video game. Because they are the real issue here. It's not that Samurais can do more damage than a Beastmaster.

Afania

11-03-2014, 01:08 AM

You don't know what activities I do on the game Afania. So can you please not make a comment about that issue? And I certainly don't only do endgame on DD paladin. Though DD paladins are capable of doing endgame activities if they want to. Sorry if I sound offensive, but I'm just stating a fact. :)

We've already gone over this, but the only thing keeping other DD jobs from party spots are players like you who treat video games like a business rather the entertainment it's suppose to be. Because I do endgame content all the time without samurais in the group.

People bring stuns for the obvious reason - to stun things. I suppose you can argue they bring them to make things faster in the sense people aren't dying or needing the extra heals/support as a result. But I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

Not everything is about math and doing the most damage. There are other elements of the game at play. Such as enmity/defense and simply staying alive. You act as if Samurais can just waltz up to anything on this game and unload its full damage potential without having to worry about staying alive as a result. But that hasn't been my experience and they just aren't this god class you make them out to be. But who knows, maybe I just haven't met the right one. Because again: in my experience a reckless Samurai requires a lot of support to keep alive and if it isn't played smartly all that damage you speak of can quickly become a burden on the group rather than an asset.

That was the point I was trying to make in regards to enmity.

Again you're focusing on the wrong side of argument, I'm not sure why's indiviual's POV toward playing FFXI is even relevant in this discussion....it doesn't matter if the player treat the game like a business or entertainment, the bloody fact is that SAM does a hell lot more dmg than other DD, AND other jobs DD with a SAM LOWERs pt output. This is just flawed from game design POV.

Again, this is a game design discussion. It seems that you feel that as long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter if the game mechanic is flawed. If you feel that way, then you shouldn't even comment. Because this issue isn't affecting you, but it's affecting everyone else. If I'm the only one experiencing this issue, we won't even see 20 pages of argument in another thread regarding job balance.

Emnity/defense isn't relevant in this discussion at all, personal play style isn't relevant in this discussion as well. This discussion is about math and game design, if you don't want to talk about math and game design, then you're focusing on the wrong side of the argument. Your personal experience and how you do event is completely irrelevant here.

Again, if all the argument you want to make is "SAM is just fine because I do endgame content without SAM just fine, and SAM dies when you use them anyways", then you're focusing on the wrong side of the argument.

Mitruya

11-03-2014, 01:24 AM

I understand your point - but the benefits of having a pet are not only useful when solo. As I explained earlier, those pets make good off-tanks and that can assist a group as well. I've had a losing battlefield saved due to a beastmaster pet.

Besides: why is there this belief that doing more damage makes someone OP anyway. Why? Some players like to stand out and do the more damage than others. So I see no reason why a job like that can't be available. People are exaggerating the importance of doing more damage in my opinion. It's not that big of a deal and I've yet to see a Samurai I would consider over-powered.

Your initial point is well-taken but that's not SE's fault and they can't fix a stubborn and misguided player mentality. The truth is you do not need maximum damage to do the content on this game. So SE has already done their part to combat this problem by virtue of the game's design. Players should instead shun these players who are so picky about who they play with and obsess over minor details on a video game. Because they are the real issue here. It's not that Samurais can do more damage than a Beastmaster.

I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

Afania

11-03-2014, 01:36 AM

I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

Mitruya

11-03-2014, 01:48 AM

I agree. It's not just a player issue. SE does hold responsibility for job design, and the battle content that certain jobs just can't handle.

Camiie

11-03-2014, 01:49 AM

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

Your anecdote is not the reality that the rest of us face. Your friends are not the norm. Just because things are fine for your friend that does not mean things are fine. The rest of have to play in a far more competitive and results driven environment than you do. I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm just pointing out the stark reality the rest of us face.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible?

When the DPS/DD class was invented.

As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

Mitruya

11-03-2014, 01:57 AM

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

I wanted to hit the like button repeatedly for this paragraph.

Ulth

11-03-2014, 03:22 AM

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

It's not really an irrational fear. Pet jobs at one point were pretty op. I'm pretty sure the incremental pet job updates is because they don't want to get back to the point where a single pet job could solo any endgame content. It's not like they are making no effort on improving pet jobs.

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

I guess that depends on if you want to be as strong as just a WAR, SAM, or MNK. Or be as strong as them when they have an entire back line supporting them.

Dale

11-03-2014, 05:39 AM

Your anecdote is not the reality that the rest of us face. Your friends are not the norm. Just because things are fine for your friend that does not mean things are fine. The rest of have to play in a far more competitive and results driven environment than you do. I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm just pointing out the stark reality the rest of us face.

When the DPS/DD class was invented.

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

It's only the reality because people allow it to be though. You can get results on this game without having to play the strongest DPS jobs.

But to answer your question - it wouldn't be no harm. I see no problem with a beastmaster along with their pet being able to match a warrior in terms of damage. But the fact is it doesn't really matter even if they did. People would still find a reason to exclude certain jobs. Even if they were to make every single DD job do the exact same damage they would still come up with some bs reason to exclude certain jobs. That's the part of my argument that is being missed here.

Players who are actively looking for an excuse to exclude other players are going to find one. Damage output is just an excuse they use. So if SE starts down that road of trying to appease players like that it will ruin this game. I am 100% confident of that because I've seen it happen on so many others games.

In other words: SE can't fix this problem. No amount of job balance will ever fix this problem. I've seen other games try - with a constant state of nerfing and buffing over a period of many years and still I read the exact same thing from these types of players how this job sucks because of this and that and this job is over-powered because of this and that. It's just never-ending and there is no solution except not to pay these types of players any mind.

Camiie

11-03-2014, 06:10 AM

Which games are those and exactly what was done?

Dale

11-03-2014, 06:28 AM

Which games are those and exactly what was done?

World of Warcraft if you want a more popular example. That game actually used to have class diversity and interesting and unique ways to play your class. But due to exactly this kind of mentality we are discussing I watched as that game was basically butchered and everything was nerfed and buffed to the point of boredom to appease these types of players.

You wouldn't know it to look at it now, but that game used to have a wide range of different support classes and play-styles. But they were all destroyed because they didn't do enough damage to satisfy those players who see everything in terms of DPS DPS DPS. And it would be tragic to see a similar result happen here.

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

Of course no game is perfect, and improvements can always be made. And I'm not saying I wouldn't support improvements to the beastmaster. But these players who demand the most damage else they won't even group with you are just being completely unreasonable. And if you try to satisfy them, the game will suffer as a result. Because they will never be satisfied and they are always going to say certain jobs suck and not group with them no matter what SE does.

Dale

11-03-2014, 07:18 AM

Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

You can call me out if you wish. But I remain convinced that is a player mentality issue to blame for people feeling as if they don't contribute to a group rather than some grave imbalance.

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another. That is what I blame the player mentality for - causing people to feel that way about their jobs. And that is why I felt the need to just pop in.

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

Maikeru_Sylph

11-03-2014, 08:50 AM

Seillan

11-03-2014, 09:40 AM

Saying that only a select few jobs can enjoy content is the same as saying only a select few players can enjoy content. Yes, everyone can level every job to 99, and therefore enjoy all the content, but what about the new players? Or people that just don't find certain jobs fun or appealing? Should they be forced to play something they don't enjoy? The moment you start doing something you don't enjoy, boredom kicks in, and too much boredom can lead to quitting. If SE's goal is to make this game more player friendly, then isn't expecting every player to have every job at 99, defeating the purpose? Leveling, gearing, meriting, skilling up, and learning every job is not an easy task, especially for new players. You're looking at months, maybe years of work. And the community expects so much from you. When you stop to think about it, this game is far from being new player friendly.

As a new player, these have been my thoughts as well. It's really disheartening to hear about how some classes are basically excluded from most of the interesting grouping activities in the game later on and that "playing just for fun" seems more like a minority POV in the game. Naturally, quite a few of the jobs that interest me the most fall into that niche and the more I play, the more the prospect of playing alone in the later levels gnaws at me. Simply put, I'm not going to play a job I don't like, and if that means I end up mainly playing alone and miss out on a bunch of stuff, then so be it -- despite how much that might suck.

Although I agree that some of this falls on the developers with class balance and whatnot, I'd also have to agree with Dale that a lot of it is due to player mentality too. The game has quite a steep hill to climb for new players with all the things you need to do to catch up with everyone (that part doesn't bother me at all, honestly) but I think the biggest barrier of entry by far is this veteran player base that seems (from what I constantly read around here) to have no patience with inexperienced players. When a game gets to be this old, and the player base obviously starts shrinking, the last thing you want to do is perpetuate an almost toxic environment that excludes the few new players that might have otherwise stuck around. Like it or not, playing a game like an efficient business essentially -- one of which basically tells people they have to play this one certain way or to GTFO -- is probably going to do more damage to the longevity of the game than anything else. No amount of DPS balance is ever going to change that counter-productive, detrimental attitude (IMO).

Dale

11-03-2014, 11:12 AM

No amount of DPS balance is ever going to change that counter-productive, detrimental attitude (IMO).

Exactly. You managed to say what I was trying to say in 2 pages in one sentence. Thank you :)

Sasuko

11-03-2014, 02:21 PM

Did you know Zeid "outparses" Noillurie with the same buffs?

Just some fun food for thought comparing DPS of two different jobs without any additives. (Yes, I know it's not exactly the same as PCs and he's not a proper scythe DRK either.)

As a new player, these have been my thoughts as well. It's really disheartening to hear about how some classes are basically excluded from most of the interesting grouping activities in the game later on and that "playing just for fun" seems more like a minority POV in the game. Naturally, quite a few of the jobs that interest me the most fall into that niche and the more I play, the more the prospect of playing alone in the later levels gnaws at me. Simply put, I'm not going to play a job I don't like, and if that means I end up mainly playing alone and miss out on a bunch of stuff, then so be it -- despite how much that might suck.

Although I agree that some of this falls on the developers with class balance and whatnot, I'd also have to agree with Dale that a lot of it is due to player mentality too. The game has quite a steep hill to climb for new players with all the things you need to do to catch up with everyone (that part doesn't bother me at all, honestly) but I think the biggest barrier of entry by far is this veteran player base that seems (from what I constantly read around here) to have no patience with inexperienced players. When a game gets to be this old, and the player base obviously starts shrinking, the last thing you want to do is perpetuate an almost toxic environment that excludes the few new players that might have otherwise stuck around. Like it or not, playing a game like an efficient business essentially -- one of which basically tells people they have to play this one certain way or to GTFO -- is probably going to do more damage to the longevity of the game than anything else. No amount of DPS balance is ever going to change that counter-productive, detrimental attitude (IMO).

And this is so very well said. I agree with it very much. There are improvements that could be made to better "balance" jobs with their respective base function, but there is definitely a player mentality barrier involved as well. Unfortunately it is much easier for people to see number totals than the other benefits a DPS job could bring to the table alongside their lower damage output.

Also Seillan, I wish you the best of luck in finding a group of people that are laid back and play for the fun of everyone involved instead of just finding ways to "go it alone" so to speak. They're out there! :)

Panda2013

11-03-2014, 04:27 PM

I also agree. And it's been getting worse. Recently for incursion, and end game event which i thought was less discriminatory, people have only been asking for Sam. We know SAM is the top DD, but that doesn't mean other DDs are not capable as well. I know people say to form your own groups and run within that group, but for a casual player it's hard to have fun with other players who are so into efficiency and business that they criticize anything outside of what they see the norm. This is why I believe the casual player population completely disappeared overnight. It's sad that people who played this game purely for fun(casuals) have fallen out of love with the game. My entire linkshell is gone and I used to have so much fun just socializing with them all while reaching our end game goals. I find it difficult just to maintain a conversation with the current population, without them pointing out what would be more efficient.

While I do agree that it's more of an issue with the population, the problem causes several jobs to be completely unused, and therefore it becomes a game problem. Something needs to be done.

Camiie

11-03-2014, 07:41 PM

World of Warcraft if you want a more popular example. That game actually used to have class diversity and interesting and unique ways to play your class. But due to exactly this kind of mentality we are discussing I watched as that game was basically butchered and everything was nerfed and buffed to the point of boredom to appease these types of players.

I'm pretty sure WoW's classes changed so drastically more as an attempt to continually simplify the game than to keep everyone's DPS in line. FFXI doesn't require that sort of change. BST doesn't need to necessarily play differently. It simply needs more output. I'm not proposing that the pet be placed on auto-pilot or they do away with the need for pet aggro control and maintenance. Pets need to become uncapped, be un-neutered as far as abilities, and allowed to be buffed. Killer Instinct needs to become a buff that's more universally useful.

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

I'm not asking for perfect. I'm not that stupid. But right now SE doesn't even care to try. This is still a group based game and if a job has nothing substantial to offer a group then what's even the point of it? I'm not even talking DPS at this point. There's literally nothing a BST can sell himself on to get into a group. Emergency tank isn't a selling point. You can blame player mentality all you want, but we can only work with what SE gives us. We can't take our lemons and make lemonade. No matter how hard we squeeze there's no juice to be had.

Of course no game is perfect, and improvements can always be made. And I'm not saying I wouldn't support improvements to the beastmaster. But these players who demand the most damage else they won't even group with you are just being completely unreasonable. And if you try to satisfy them, the game will suffer as a result. Because they will never be satisfied and they are always going to say certain jobs suck and not group with them no matter what SE does.

The game IS suffering now. Sure it's for a myriad of reasons, but I guarantee you that the lack of anything resembling class balance is one of them.

Afania

11-03-2014, 10:16 PM

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

I'm not sure why do you bring up "player mentality" over and over again, this isn't even the point.

If you can beat a content with BST, that means it'd be "too easy" for SAM. Then there's a game difficulty design issue, because the difficulty should be equal, instead of certain setup gets "just right" difficulty and certain setup gets "too easy" difficulty.

Again, just because X job can beat the content, doesn't mean there are no flaws in game design.

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another.

It's not that the community are "believing" the job is so awful in this case, it's math. It's not an opinion, it's fact. There isn't anything you can do if X job just do 2~3 times more dmg than another job.

Whether other jobs deserve an invite is depend on individual, but you can't change math, numbers and facts. If someone choose not to invite a person/job, there's nothing you can do about it.

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

Your reason wasn't legit, when we use SAM as a dmg dealer, obviously we use it in a situation that enmity doesn't matter, I'm not sure why'd you bring up enmity cap in this discussion.

Afania

11-03-2014, 10:26 PM

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

This should be discussed in a case-by-case basis, it's not black or white.

There are certain job that I think it's just fine, IMO THF, BLU, DNC, MNK, DRG, RNG and COR are just fine, even though they do less dmg than SAM. I don't think DRK and WAR are fine and they'd need a buff/unique ability. I think PUP and BST needs a complete overhaul that's more than just dmg buff.

I think SAM def needs a nerf.

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

If you want to discuss the class balance issue, express your opinion about jobs, balance and math, let SE know how to fix it. But don't just pop in the forum and say "It's player mentality's fault for not inviting other jobs! I clear events without those jobs all the time!"

Dale

11-03-2014, 11:11 PM

I'm not sure why do you bring up "player mentality" over and over again, this isn't even the point.

If you can beat a content with BST, that means it'd be "too easy" for SAM. Then there's a game difficulty design issue, because the difficulty should be equal, instead of certain setup gets "just right" difficulty and certain setup gets "too easy" difficulty.

Again, just because X job can beat the content, doesn't mean there are no flaws in game design..

Not sure why you are confused as to why I brought it up because I pointed out why. I bring it up when I see people believing certain jobs do not contribute in a group or aren't worthy of a party spot. That is what I blame the player mentality for - perpetuating that false narrative and I will continue to challenge it when I see it. I also disagree with you that just because something can be beaten by a Beastmaster than means it would be too easy with a samurai.

It's not that the community are "believing" the job is so awful in this case, it's math. It's not an opinion, it's fact. There isn't anything you can do if X job just do 2~3 times more dmg than another job.

Whether other jobs deserve an invite is depend on individual, but you can't change math, numbers and facts. If someone choose not to invite a person/job, there's nothing you can do about it. ..

We've already gone over this so there is no need to repeat it. We just disagree. Because it's not math that is responsible for certain jobs not getting invites on this game. It's because of, yes - player mentalities like yourself :)

Your reason wasn't legit, when we use SAM as a dmg dealer, obviously we use it in a situation that enmity doesn't matter, I'm not sure why'd you bring up enmity cap in this discussion.

It wasn't legit according to you maybe. But I found it perfectly legit. You have to take into account enmity and the job's ability to withstand damage before you can call a job over-powered. I know you want to just base everything around damage and ignore everything else. But I'm not like that.

Mitruya

11-03-2014, 11:28 PM

Dale

11-03-2014, 11:28 PM

This should be discussed in a case-by-case basis, it's not black or white.

There are certain job that I think it's just fine, IMO THF, BLU, DNC, MNK, DRG, RNG and COR are just fine, even though they do less dmg than SAM. I don't think DRK and WAR are fine and they'd need a buff/unique ability. I think PUP and BST needs a complete overhaul that's more than just dmg buff.

I think SAM def needs a nerf.

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

If you want to discuss the class balance issue, express your opinion about jobs, balance and math, let SE know how to fix it. But don't just pop in the forum and say "It's player mentality's fault for not inviting other jobs! I clear events without those jobs all the time!"

And I would ask you to do the same.

If you want to discuss class balance and your opinion about jobs that is fine. But if someone does it in the context of saying certain jobs do not contribute to a group or aren't worthy a party invite - then you are broadening the scope of your argument in ways I will challenge and dismiss as an exaggeration created by obsessive players.

And if you view my earlier posts, I have discussed ways to improve jobs without ever referring to the player mentality. You keep acting as if I always just bring that up - but that's just not true. I only bring it up when people start exaggerating. Though even when I don't bring it up - you still attack my opinions and say they are not legit. So it really doesn't matter what I say to be honest :)

Dale

11-03-2014, 11:33 PM

It shouldn't take 30 pages of arguments to point out that just because one or two people are able to enjoy their game experience, all the other people who aren't need to have their voices heard, too.
It's great that people like Dale and others whose names I can't remember are laid-back enough to play for fun and let friends come on alternate DD job or whatever.
But we can't let SE believe that "my job is fine, the gameplay is fine, I can clear content just fine" when you've got all the rest of us screaming about how we're NOT having that great of a game experience. We can't totally blame it on the playerbase.

No game is perfect and improvements can always be made. I pointed that out earlier, and even discuss areas where I think change should happen often on these forums.

What I blame the players for is this idea that certain jobs are so bad they don't even deserve an invite or a spot in a party. That is not SE's fault, because no job is in such a state to warrant that kind of attitude towards them.

Mitruya

11-03-2014, 11:41 PM

I agree with you somewhat, Dale, and I understand what you're trying to say. I just wish more people felt like you did.

Mitruya

11-03-2014, 11:43 PM

It's not really an irrational fear. Pet jobs at one point were pretty op. I'm pretty sure the incremental pet job updates is because they don't want to get back to the point where a single pet job could solo any endgame content. It's not like they are making no effort on improving pet jobs.

Yeah, I do understand, and I appreciate the baby steps. It's just not enough yet for anyone to let me come PUP to endgame.

Dale

11-03-2014, 11:46 PM

I'm pretty sure WoW's classes changed so drastically more as an attempt to continually simplify the game than to keep everyone's DPS in line. FFXI doesn't require that sort of change. BST doesn't need to necessarily play differently. It simply needs more output. I'm not proposing that the pet be placed on auto-pilot or they do away with the need for pet aggro control and maintenance. Pets need to become uncapped, be un-neutered as far as abilities, and allowed to be buffed. Killer Instinct needs to become a buff that's more universally useful. .

They were done away with because people were ostracizing all of the support-style classes because they didn't do as much damage. Very similar to what is going on here. Because jobs that don't do as much damage as others usually have other elements to them - which is why SE designed them to do less damage in the first place.

I'm not opposed to beastmaster improvements.

I'm
I'm not asking for perfect. I'm not that stupid. But right now SE doesn't even care to try. This is still a group based game and if a job has nothing substantial to offer a group then what's even the point of it? I'm not even talking DPS at this point. There's literally nothing a BST can sell himself on to get into a group. Emergency tank isn't a selling point. You can blame player mentality all you want, but we can only work with what SE gives us. We can't take our lemons and make lemonade. No matter how hard we squeeze there's no juice to be had..

And I disagree. I like beastmasters and their ability to off-tank is very handy. I will welcome one into my group any time and not regret it so long as they are well-played.

The game IS suffering now. Sure it's for a myriad of reasons, but I guarantee you that the lack of anything resembling class balance is one of them.

And I guarantee you the main reason it is suffering is because of these players who obsess over damage and can't appreciate anything else.

Dale

11-03-2014, 11:52 PM

I agree with you somewhat, Dale, and I understand what you're trying to say. I just wish more people felt like you did.

There is more of us out there who feel this way then you might think.

Mefuki

11-04-2014, 12:03 AM

Dale

11-04-2014, 12:23 AM

I just wish we could decide as a community to be more general with shouts. Shout for DD or Support or Healer. I'm so sick of seeing,

"Tenzen Normal Do You Need It? 4/6 Bard Samurai"

"Morimar Basalt Fields Delve Do You Need It? 4/6 Bard Samurai or Monk"

"SKCNM Normal Do You Need It 3/6 White Mage Paladin Samurai"

There's a sampling of some of the shouts I saw last night. It's ridiculous.

Yes I know. They act like you need such specific set ups for everything.

I quit paying attention to shouts a long time ago except for the occasional WKR where I don't have to worry about dealing with that kind of nonsense.

Just to add: I once watched a samurai go crazy because someone brought his beastmaster buddy along for SKCNM. A battlefield you could probably solo.... duo for sure. But that didn't matter to him. Instead he wanted to throw a tantrum about a job he didn't approve of being in the group. It was really annoying and when the samurai died I forgot where my raise spell was.

We went on to beat the battlefield easily while he took a dirt nap.

Afania

11-04-2014, 12:44 AM

We've already gone over this so there is no need to repeat it. We just disagree. Because it's not math that is responsible for certain jobs not getting invites on this game. It's because of, yes - player mentalities like yourself :)

Wow I swear this is personal attack. I HAVE invited DD jobs that did less than half of dmg of another SAM in the same pt many, many, many times in my life, stop accusing me for not inviting ppl.

I just have to point out, some ppl weren't happy in the same pt(and it wasn't me, I was perfectly fine with it) and had an unhappy playing experience because of it.....you know, they played the game for entertainment and ended up not having fun cuz someone else did less than half the dmg.

It seems that you just decided that whoever doesn't invite others has some sort of "player mentality" that's bad for the community, when ppl just want to have fun.....but fun is subjective, for many ppl having one person do less than half dmg of another DD is not an enjoyable playing experience.

IMO, in the end you're no different from those who exclude others. You just believe how you enjoy the game is right and everyone else is wrong.

It wasn't legit according to you maybe. But I found it perfectly legit. You have to take into account enmity and the job's ability to withstand damage before you can call a job over-powered. I know you want to just base everything around damage and ignore everything else. But I'm not like that.

It is not legit because we're comparing SAM with other melee jobs that has 0 advantage in enmity/defense aspect, such as DRK and WAR. If you're comparing SAM with PLD or RNG, then PLD and RNG can stand out in enmity/defensive playstyle aspect. But that's not the case with SAM v.s another melee....SAM does not take more dmg than other melee, and it deals more dmg, therefore defense/enmity is completely irrelevant in this discussion.

They were done away with because people were ostracizing all of the support-style classes because they didn't do as much damage. Very similar to what is going on here. Because jobs that don't do as much damage as others usually have other elements to them - which is why SE designed them to do less damage in the first place.

Except certain jobs in this game doesn't do as much dmg AND it doesn't have any special element that makes them stand out.

Dale

11-04-2014, 12:52 AM

Wow I swear this is personal attack. I HAVE invited DD jobs that did less than half of dmg of another SAM in the same pt many, many, many times in my life, stop accusing me for not inviting ppl.

I just have to point out, some ppl weren't happy in the same pt(and it wasn't me, I was perfectly fine with it) and had an unhappy playing experience because of it.

It seems that you just decided that whoever doesn't invite others has some sort of "player mentality" that's bad for the community, when ppl just want to have fun.....and fun is subjective, for many ppl having one person do less than half dmg of another DD is not an enjoyable playing experience.

IMO, in the end you're no different from those who exclude others. You just believe what you think is right and everyone else is wrong.

I am just going by what you have told me

Earlier you said you would kick me out of your group if I chose to use a sword and shield rather a Great Sword because I wouldn't compare as well to a Samurai in terms of damage. You also continuously try to defend people excluding other jobs just because they do less damage by pointing to math and saying that somehow justifies it.

So if you want me to have a different impression of you, I would suggest not saying things like this. ^^

It is not legit because we're comparing SAM with other melee jobs that has 0 advantage in enmity/defense aspect, such as DRK and WAR. If you're comparing SAM with PLD or RNG, then PLD and RNG can stand out in enmity/defensive playstyle aspect. But that's not the case with SAM v.s another melee....SAM does not take more dmg than other melee, and it deals more dmg, therefore defense/enmity is completely irrelevant in this discussion.
.

That post I made about Samurais and enmity wasn't aimed at you or in reference to any comparisons you were trying to make. I was explaining why I didn't see Samurais as being over-powered and explained why to another poster.

Scroll up and you will notice the post I made about Samurai was not directed at you or any of the arguments you were trying to make. So of course it's not going to be in the same context as your post. It was never meant to be.

Afania

11-04-2014, 12:55 AM

I am just going by what you have told me

Earlier you said you would kick me out of your group if I chose to use a sword and shield rather a Great Sword because I wouldn't compare as well to a Samurai in terms of damage. You also continuously try to defend people excluding other jobs just because they do less damage by pointing to math and saying that somehow justifies it.

So if you want me to have a different impression of you, I would suggest not saying things like this.

I don't need you to have a "different impression", I only ask for respect toward others having a different opinion about having fun in this game. Some ppl do not have fun playing with a sword and shield PLD in the same pt you know.

If you see someone exclude others, just don't say anything. You don't "win" nor become a better person by blaming them, you're just doing the same thing.

IMO, it's not wrong to pick ppl to pt with, since everyone paid their $13 a month and who you pt with heavily affect whether you have fun or not. If you're not happy with ppl excluding others, pay for their sub fee.

And yes math justifies everything, it's the rule of the universe.....and game design.

Dale

11-04-2014, 01:12 AM

I don't need you to have a "different impression", I only ask for respect toward others having a different opinion about having fun in this game. Some ppl do not have fun playing with a sword and shield PLD in the same pt you know.

If you see someone exclude others, just don't say anything. You don't "win" nor become a better person by blaming them, you're just doing the same thing.

IMO, it's not wrong to pick ppl to pt with, since everyone paid their $13 a month and who you pt with heavily affect whether you have fun or not. If you're not happy with ppl excluding others, pay for their sub fee.

And yes math justifies everything, it's the rule of the universe.....and game design.

I'm not trying to win or be a better person.

I'm here to counter this view that math justifies everything. I find this kind of mentality destructive to the game and wholly unnecessary.

Not all of us believe people should be invited or not invited based on math and how much damage they can do. And we can express that opinion on this forum without being expected to pay for anyone else's subscription. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Afania

11-04-2014, 01:17 AM

I'm not trying to win or be a better person.

I'm here to counter this view that math justifies everything. I find this kind of mentality destructive to the game and wholly unnecessary.

Not all of us believe people should be invited or not invited based on math and how much damage they can do. And we can express that opinion on this forum without being expected to pay for anyone else's subscription. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Again, that's your opinion, I get it. But stop trying to personal attack or play the blame game just because someone has a different opinion.

Dale

11-04-2014, 01:21 AM

Again, that's your opinion, I get it. But stop trying to personal attack or implying something negative just because someone has a different opinion.

I have treated you with respect, especially considering some of the comments you have tossed my way. A personal attack is when I insult you - not describe you as having the kind of mentality I am talking about that leads to people exclude others from groups based on math and how much damage they can do.

And considering you have said over and over that you don't see anything wrong with this kind of mentality in the first place and go out of your way to defend it constantly, I really have no idea why you are trying to play the victim here and accusing me of personally attacking you.

Also, you were the aggressor in this conversation. You were the one who called me out. Don't blame me if I defend myself when you do it and then behave as if it was me picking on you.

Afania

11-04-2014, 01:26 AM

I have treated you with respect, especially considering some of the comments you have tossed my way. A personal attack is when I insult you - not describe you as having the kind of mentality I am talking about that leads to people exclude others from groups based on math and how much damage they can do.

And considering you have said over and over that you don't see anything wrong with this kind of mentality in the first place and go out of your way to defend it constantly, I really have no idea why you are trying to play the victim here and accusing me of personally attacking you.

It's more like the way you worded it were extremely negative, while I don't view "being exclusive" a bad thing....it's just human nature, therefore it's not good nor bad. I just live with it, deal with it, instead of trying to change it or play the blame game.

Ppl exclude others based on math.....and personality, what else do you expect lol. Do you expect a perfect world where everyone happily accept each other with no drama? Not gonna happen, irl nor FFXI.

I think our biggest disagreement is actually not the exclusivity itself, but our opinion toward exclusivity....you view it as something negative and must be changed, I view as part of the human nature and it should stay that way.

Also, you were the aggressor in this conversation. You were the one who called me out. Don't blame me if I defend myself when you do it and then behave as if it was me picking on you.

I called you out cuz you're focusing on the wrong side of the argument.....we're presenting an opinion toward the job balance, and you played the blame game again as if it's completely player's fault that the game design has issue that needs a fix.

Dale

11-04-2014, 01:33 AM

It's more like the way you worded it were extremely negative, while I don't view "being exclusive" a bad thing....it's just human nature, therefore it's not good nor bad. I just live with it, deal with it, instead of trying to change it or point fingers.

Ppl exclude others based on math.....and personality, what else do you expect lol. Do you expect a perfect world where everyone happily accept each other with no drama? Not gonna happen, irl nor FFXI.

If you think it's just human nature and there is nothing wrong with it: why then do you see it so negatively when I point it out? It seems to me if you really did feel it was justified to exclude others based on these reasons you wouldn't get so defensive when I disagree with it. So perhaps there is a part of you who feels it's wrong too :)

And no, I don't expect a perfect world. But I do expect a world where people don't treat video games like a business. That's not an unreasonable or naïve expectation in my estimation.

I called you out cuz you're focusing on the wrong side of the argument.....we're presenting an opinion toward the job balance, and you played the blame game again as if it's completely player's fault that the game design has issue that needs a fix.

Except that I didn't do that. I explained my reasons as to why I didn't feel the Samurai was over-powered and didn't blame anyone for it.

It was a separate issue that lead me to blame obsessive players - and had to do with a beastmaster feeling they didn't contribute in a group. You are mixing two separate posts together to try and make it seem like I did something I didn't.

Afania

11-04-2014, 01:35 AM

If you think it's just human nature and there is nothing wrong with it: why then do you see it so negatively when I point it out? It seems to me if you really did feel it was justified to exclude others based on these reasons you wouldn't get so defensive when I disagree with it. So perhaps there is a part of you who feels it's wrong too :)

And no, I don't expect a perfect world. But I do expect a world where people don't treat video games like a business. That's not an unreasonable or naïve expectation in my estimation.

But in real world, ppl do treat video games like a business......ppl even sell gold/account for real money and open gold farming company in China to make money. IT IS business.

Sorry if your expectation doesn't work irl, there isn't anything you can do to change that. The fundamental of MMORPG is business...it just is.

Dale

11-04-2014, 01:38 AM

But in real world, ppl do treat video games like a business......ppl even sell gold/account for real money and open gold farming company in China to make money. IT IS business.

Some people do yes. People like you :)

And I am pointing out how silly I think that is and destructive it is to the health of this game.

I also speak out against RMT as well. Just because something occurs in the real world doesn't mean I have to condone it and can't speak out against it.

Afania

11-04-2014, 01:47 AM

Some people do yes. People like you :)

And I am pointing out how silly I think that is and destructive it is to the health of this game.

I also speak out against RMT as well. Just because something occurs in the real world doesn't mean I have to condone it and can't speak out against it.

I think RMT hurts the game in the long run as well, but I don't think aiming for max efficiency is destructive to the health of this game. IMO it makes the game more fun/challenging do push the group's limit and do it better, that's how many gamers enjoy video games for decades....to play the game better and aim for higher scores/performance. Gamers aim for higher scores since video game exists, I don't see what's wrong with a group aiming for faster clears.

If you don't like to aim for faster clears, don't play with ppl that aim for faster clears, it's as simple as that.

I think we should stop this discussion here, since it's a proven fact that we don't agree with each other about this issue.

Dale

11-04-2014, 01:52 AM

I think RMT hurts the game in the long run as well, but I don't think aiming for max efficiency is destructive to the health of this game. IMO it makes the game more fun/challenging do push the group's limit and do it better, that's how many gamers enjoy video games for decades....to play the game better and aim for higher scores. Gamers aim for higher score since video game exists, I don't see what's wrong with a group aiming for faster clears.

I think we should stop this discussion here, since it's a proven fact that we don't agree with each other about this issue.

That much is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. We definitely don't agree. Because I believe treating a game like a business and refusing to play with others simply because they do not offer max efficiency in terms of killing faster is just as harmful if not even more so in the long run as RMT is.

And I'm perfectly content to leave it here as well.

Ulth

11-04-2014, 03:55 AM

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

Well yeah it is a little exaggerated. In the condition where thief can sneak attack and trick attack reliably their damage is on par with the normal damage dealers. Only the problem is after the first sneak attack enmity is capped and the mob is spinning like a top. For pulling hate, that is the best case scenario for thief. On difficult AA fights when you pull hate you get a hate reset, because you die. I don't even use sneak attack in those fights because the down time from weakness isn't worth it. On the topic of enmity, accomplice and collaborator are only useful in "oh shit" situations when the white mage pulls hate. Even then it hardly works because unless the white mage is on the ball for that, they die on the first hit. It would be nice if thief could use it proactively to keep the white mage's hate from getting there, but the range is too short, and the devs already told us if they made it longer it would blow up the server.

So yeah thief's two special snowflake uses are treasure hunter and enmity control, and their enmity control is useless. The following is a list of other things thief is known for that is also useless: Gilfinder, Evasion, Resist Gravity, Mug, Hide, Feint, Despoil, Conspirator. Then there is the general things that mobs do that mess with thief like everything doing aoe knockbacks that bind and are unavoidable.

I also feel something should be done to improve dual wield, but that is less of a thief issue and more of a NIN, DNC, THF, BLU issue.

Afania

11-04-2014, 10:00 AM

That much is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. We definitely don't agree. Because I believe treating a game like a business and refusing to play with others simply because they do not offer max efficiency in terms of killing faster is just as harmful if not even more so in the long run as RMT is.

And I'm perfectly content to leave it here as well.

It is more than just treating a game like a business, but also because that's how some ppl have fun in a video game.......when ppl play tetris they aim for highest score as possible, when they play flappy bird they aim for highest score as possible. I agree not everyone pushes very hard to aim for high score, but you can't deny that quite a lot of ppl aim for highest performance possible in video games.

You kept blaming how it's "treating video game like business"'s fault, but you just can't accept the fact that other players have different opinion toward having fun.

And more importantly, you blame others for being "harmful" to the game just because they have different opinion toward having fun.

THAT is the reason why I feel you're not respecting other's opinion. You may think you're not doing personal attack because you're using polite words, but in your mind you view other's opinion so negatively and overly exaggerate the negative impact toward other's opinion of having fun.

In the end you're not going to change anything, you can't change how others have fun. If player A just doesn't have fun when playing player B, player A has the right not to invite them. If you blame player A for not inviting player B, you're not going to change how player A can have fun, you just bring this negative attitude in the entire discussion that in most cases made the game less enjoyable for every player......you know, being harmful to the game.

The point is, if player A doesn't invite player B, it is not nearly as harmful as you made it sound like. Because there's nothing is stopping player B to find someone else to play with, that actually enjoys playing with player B, like player C or player D.

I'm sorry but I just can't agree that it's a crime to pick who you play with.

doublesbrian

11-04-2014, 12:34 PM

I wish you two would get a damn room, did you really need to come back and type all that to him after you both agreed to leave it be, i wish i could bash both your heads together i'm sure everyone else is sick of reading the pair of you bitch at each all the time.

Seillan

11-04-2014, 01:59 PM

And this is so very well said. I agree with it very much. There are improvements that could be made to better "balance" jobs with their respective base function, but there is definitely a player mentality barrier involved as well. Unfortunately it is much easier for people to see number totals than the other benefits a DPS job could bring to the table alongside their lower damage output.

Also Seillan, I wish you the best of luck in finding a group of people that are laid back and play for the fun of everyone involved instead of just finding ways to "go it alone" so to speak. They're out there! :)

Well thanks very much :). I'm glad to see I'm not alone in those thoughts.

I'll definitely keep looking around for a a more casual-minded shell; playing by yourself does get pretty depressing after doing it for awhile so I'm all for getting more involved in the community. I'm also still debating on possibly moving to a smaller server as they've always seemed to have more tight-knit, friendly communities (plus I hear it's easier to hunt NM on them, which I'd really like to do one day.) That's been my experience with quite a few other games at least. Speaking of which, what's Quetzalcoatl like?

Dale

11-05-2014, 12:31 AM

It is more than just treating a game like a business, but also because that's how some ppl have fun in a video game.......when ppl play tetris they aim for highest score as possible, when they play flappy bird they aim for highest score as possible. I agree not everyone pushes very hard to aim for high score, but you can't deny that quite a lot of ppl aim for highest performance possible in video games.

You kept blaming how it's "treating video game like business"'s fault, but you just can't accept the fact that other players have different opinion toward having fun.

And more importantly, you blame others for being "harmful" to the game just because they have different opinion toward having fun.

THAT is the reason why I feel you're not respecting other's opinion. You may think you're not doing personal attack because you're using polite words, but in your mind you view other's opinion so negatively and overly exaggerate the negative impact toward other's opinion of having fun.

In the end you're not going to change anything, you can't change how others have fun. If player A just doesn't have fun when playing player B, player A has the right not to invite them. If you blame player A for not inviting player B, you're not going to change how player A can have fun, you just bring this negative attitude in the entire discussion that in most cases made the game less enjoyable for every player......you know, being harmful to the game.

The point is, if player A doesn't invite player B, it is not nearly as harmful as you made it sound like. Because there's nothing is stopping player B to find someone else to play with, that actually enjoys playing with player B, like player C or player D.

I'm sorry but I just can't agree that it's a crime to pick who you play with.

So I guess you decided not to stop the discussion.

I never said it was a crime to pick you play with. But refusing to group with others just because they do not offer max-efficiency in terms of damage is harmful to the game. Why? Because it leads to exactly the situation we have here - where so many different jobs get excluded because of people like you go out of the way to find insignificant reasons to try and shut them out of content. It's the same type of elitism I have seen on countless other MMORPGs and it is precisely this kind of attitude that is responsible for bringing the genre down and ruining much of the role playing elements that make games like this interesting to begin with. So I'm not exaggerating the negative effect this has in the least.

Also: if excluding others is someone's idea of having fun then they have a very poor way of enjoying themselves.

And I'm aware you and others hold this opinion. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it or accept it. Because I don't. I will never accept this kind of attitude toward others. So you might as well stop trying to justify it to me because you are never going to succeed at it. People who want to be so damn picky about who they play with really have no business playing a MMORPG to begin with in my opinion. Because this isn't a business. It's a multi-player role playing game. And people should be able to play the jobs they enjoy without being systematically alienated because of it.

Zheta

11-05-2014, 01:29 AM

I'll definitely keep looking around for a a more casual-minded shell; playing by yourself does get pretty depressing after doing it for awhile so I'm all for getting more involved in the community.

If you're on Asura: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxi/comments/2axr93/are_you_playing_on_the_asura_server_join_the/

Afania

11-05-2014, 01:51 AM

So I guess you decided not to stop the discussion.

I never said it was a crime to pick you play with. But refusing to group with others just because they do not offer max-efficiency in terms of damage is harmful to the game. Why? Because it leads to exactly the situation we have here - where so many different jobs get excluded because of people like you go out of the way to find insignificant reasons to try and shut them out of content. It's the same type of elitism I have seen on countless other MMORPGs and it is precisely this kind of attitude that is responsible for bringing the genre down and ruining much of the role playing elements that make games like this interesting to begin with. So I'm not exaggerating the negative effect this has in the least.

Sorry to continue this discussion - -, but as a long time MMORPG player, I still don't agree with the bolded part.

Players in MMORPG/FFXI exclude certain jobs and aim for efficiency because those games are grind based games, when a game is designed to grind for hundreds and hundreds of hours, role playing isn't gonna work. Unless this game has a dedicated role playing server it's not happening.

If you want to true role playing experience, I suppose you should play sand box MMO instead of theme park like this....you know, games that designed to be more open ended and explore different possibilities, instead of games with tons of points/gold/gears to grind. I think some MMORPG titles also has dedicated servers for none competitive gameplay.

Again, this is my original point: It is not the player's fault that MMORPG become like this, it's game design direction's fault. The game design aimed toward certain group of players that enjoys a more competitive gameplay instead of role playing. When the game content is designed to offer you points/gears/gold and the entire game has nothing else except content that offers points/gears/gold, this is how it'd end up. This game simply doesn't reward role playing element, it is not a sandbox MMORPG, and this game doesn't have a role playing server. You're definitely playing the wrong genre if role playing is what you want.

If you seriously want to role play in FFXI, maybe ask SE to build a role playing server with role playing content. Blaming players for not accepting role playing is pointless. Some players wants to compete/push harder, just let them be.

Dale

11-05-2014, 01:56 AM

Sorry to continue this discussion - -, but as a long time MMORPG player, I still don't agree with the bolded part.

Players in MMORPG/FFXI exclude certain job and aim for efficiency because those games are grind based game, when the game is designed to grind for hundreds and hundreds of hours, role playing isn't gonna work.

If you want to true role playing experience, I suppose you should play sand box MMO instead of theme park like this....you know, games that designed to be more open ended and explore different possibilities, instead of games with tons of points/gold/gears to grind.

Again, this is my original point: It is not the player's fault that MMORPG become like this, it's game design direction's fault. When the game content is designed to offer you points/gears/gold and the entire game has nothing else except content that offers points/gears/gold, this is how it'd end up. This game simply doesn't reward role playing element, it is not a sandbox MMORPG.

And I disagree with you. I believe it is the player's fault. This game does reward role playing - because you can be successful at this game while still playing the jobs you enjoy. You do not need max-efficiency to be successful. That's just a falsehood players like you aid in perpetuating.

And I'm not even going to touch the sandbox/thempark stuff. Last thing this thread needs is a semantic argument about that.

Afania

11-05-2014, 02:03 AM

And I disagree with you. I believe it is the player's fault. This game does reward role playing - because you can be successful at this game while still playing the jobs you enjoy. You do not need max-efficiency to be successful. That's just a falsehood players like you perpetuate.

And I'm not even going to touch the sandbox/thempark stuff. Last thing this thread needs is a semantic argument about that.

Let a pt of BST win the content doesn't mean it "rewards" the player for playing BST, you have a really strange understanding toward game design theory.

Say a SAM can grind 400k plasm/hr, BST can grind 150k plasm/hr, from what I've seen, the game is rewarding SAM, not BST.

Now if the content drops a D ring or mythic everytime you clear the content with 5 BST in pt, then the content is rewarding BST.

If I'm a game designer and I want every player to invite a BST to pt, I'd just make BST get a 400% plasm bonus and 5 extra airlixir +2 every delve clear. I wouldn't let SAM grind more plasm/hr than BST while offering no extra bonus for a pt with BST.

This is just, basic game design theory 101. If you want the player to do A, give them goodies to do A. If they're not doing A, then you're not giving out enough goodies, it's as simple as that.

detlef

11-05-2014, 04:21 AM

And I disagree with you. I believe it is the player's fault.I don't know how you can say it's the players' fault. As players we're slaves to however the devs adjust the game. We do the job with the tools we have. If they make one of our tools stronger, it's not the players' fault if we choose to use the stronger tool whenever possible. The devs can't throw their hands up in the air and say "We never expected this! Why aren't you using weaker tools for the job? Also we have no control over it, we're just devs!"

If they make a strong WS like Fudo easily available, give it useful skillchain properties, and then buff skillchains, what do you think will happen? What happens when you make it very easy to self-skillchain? Is this really the players' fault?

Ulth

11-05-2014, 04:59 AM

Dale

11-06-2014, 12:25 AM

Let a pt of BST win the content doesn't mean it "rewards" the player for playing BST, you have a really strange understanding toward game design theory.

Say a SAM can grind 400k plasm/hr, BST can grind 150k plasm/hr, from what I've seen, the game is rewarding SAM, not BST.

Now if the content drops a D ring or mythic everytime you clear the content with 5 BST in pt, then the content is rewarding BST.

If I'm a game designer and I want every player to invite a BST to pt, I'd just make BST get a 400% plasm bonus and 5 extra airlixir +2 every delve clear. I wouldn't let SAM grind more plasm/hr than BST while offering no extra bonus for a pt with BST.

This is just, basic game design theory 101. If you want the player to do A, give them goodies to do A. If they're not doing A, then you're not giving out enough goodies, it's as simple as that.

I would turn that around and say you have a really strange understanding towards game design theory. Because MMORPGs aren't about being as efficient as possible in a business environment and getting x amount of items as quickly as possible. They are about role playing as a job you enjoy and having fun in the process. Because believe it or not - some of us still play video games to have fun.

And that is how a video game actually rewards you anyway - by having fun. And if you aren't accomplishing that - you really are wasting your time no matter how quickly or efficient someone thinks they are being. And as I said in a previous post - if excluding others is someone's idea of having fun then they have a very poor way of enjoying themselves and really have no business playing a MMORPG to begin with.

Also the whole point of a grind as you constantly refer to is to increase the time players spend on the game and to add replay value anyway. So this whole idea you have that you are suppose to play as efficiently obsessively and quickly as possible to get a so-called grind over with as fast as possible is actually the complete opposite of what designs like this are actually intended to do anyway.

So as I said, if anyone has a very strange understanding of video game design - it's you. Because I strongly doubt SE designed their game so players would want to just play what ever job does the most damage so they can hurry up and get their game over with as fast as possible. And to reach that ridiculous conclusion simply because they have a job like samurai that does high burst damage and therefore of course out-performs other DD jobs if you engineer the fight to be as quick as possible is absolutely absurd.

Dale

11-06-2014, 12:30 AM

I don't know how you can say it's the players' fault. As players we're slaves to however the devs adjust the game. We do the job with the tools we have. If they make one of our tools stronger, it's not the players' fault if we choose to use the stronger tool whenever possible. The devs can't throw their hands up in the air and say "We never expected this! Why aren't you using weaker tools for the job? Also we have no control over it, we're just devs!"

If they make a strong WS like Fudo easily available, give it useful skillchain properties, and then buff skillchains, what do you think will happen? What happens when you make it very easy to self-skillchain? Is this really the players' fault?

Because it is the players fault. I am playing the same game you are yet feel no need to always concentrate on recruiting samurais when possible. Other jobs get the job done just fine.

SE can't help if players want to obsess over little details as an excuse to exclude other jobs from content because it makes them feel extra special or elite. A few extra minutes to kill something... big deal. No one being even remotely reasonable would make such a fuss over that. Besides - they could have probably beaten the battlefield etc. in the extra amount of time it takes them shout constantly for such specific set ups anyway. So even in terms of their precious efficiency their argument doesn't even add up.

Afania

11-06-2014, 12:45 AM

I would turn that around and say you have a really strange understanding towards game design theory. Because MMORPGs aren't about being as efficient as possible in a business environment and getting x amount of items as quickly as possible. They are about role playing as a job you enjoy and having fun. Because believe it or not - some of us still play video games to have fun.

And that is how a video game actually rewards you anyway - by having fun. And if you aren't accomplishing that - you really are wasting your time no matter how quickly or efficient someone thinks they are being. And as I said in a previous post - if excluding others is someone's idea of having fun then they have a very poor way of enjoying themselves.

Also the whole point of a grind as you constantly refer to is to increase the time players spend on the game and to add replay value anyway. So this whole idea you have that you are suppose to play as efficiently obsessively and quickly as possible to get a so-called grind over with as fast as possible is actually the complete opposite of what evens like this are designed to do anyway. So as I said, if anyone has a very strange understanding of video game design - it's you.

You just won't accept ppl have different opinion about what's fun and what's not isn't it?

And yes I believe some ppl still have fun with role playing, but not everyone. Your opinion about what's fun and what's not can't represent everyone else's opinion. What if I just don't enjoy playing with some ppl? What if I have 0 fun playing with them regardless the setup I use? Why can't I choose not to invite them so I enjoy the game more?

Because it is the players fault. I am playing the same game you are yet feel no need to always concentrate on recruiting samurais when possible. Other jobs get the job done just fine.

SE can't help if players want to obsess over little details as an excuse to exclude other jobs from content because it makes them feel extra special or elite. A few extra minutes to kill something... big deal. No one being even remotely reasonable would make such a fuss over that. Besides - they could have probably beaten the battlefield etc. in the extra amount of time it takes them shout constantly for such specific set ups anyway. So even in terms of their precious efficiency their argument doesn't even add up.

Your argument about extra time spent on making a perfect setup is a completely different issue. Also no one is making a big fuss over different DD jobs/slower kill, they just silently/secretly choose not to invite them so they have more fun playing the game.

Dale

11-06-2014, 12:56 AM

I'm pretty sure they knew what they were doing. I'm also working under the assumption that they devs like to play sam.

I'm pretty sure they knew what they are doing too. They just don't obsess over damage in the same way some of the players on this game does :)

It's just not a big deal. I do content regularly with Samurais and without them. People who act like there is such a massive imbalance that no job but samurai deserves a party invite are exaggerating to the point they really aren't worth paying attention to. So I don't blame the developers for ignoring them. I would too. And if they threatened to leave the game over it - I would show them where the door was.

This would be a better game without these obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measured in terms of damage per second. I'm tired of it. They are a plague on MMORPGs as far as I'm concerned.

Dale

11-06-2014, 01:01 AM

Your argument about extra time spent on making a perfect setup is a completely different issue. Also no one is making a big fuss over different DD jobs/slower kill, they just silently/secretly choose not to invite them so they have more fun playing the game.

Oh but they do make a big fuss. You are proof of that because the last thing you are being is silent and secret.

Not to mention as I pointed out the extra time they spend shouting constantly for these specific set ups actually makes them less efficient in terms of time anyway. So it's hardly a separate issue - it just proves how ridiculous this whole thing is and doesn't even make sense according to their own logic.

Afania

11-06-2014, 01:11 AM

Oh but they do make a big fuss. You are proof of that because the last thing you are being is silent and secret.

Not to mention as I pointed out the extra time they spend shouting constantly for these specific set ups actually makes them less efficient in terms of time anyway. So it's hardly a separate issue - it just proves how ridiculous this whole thing is and doesn't even make sense according to their own logic.

A lot of the FFXI player doesn't even post on this forum lol(and yet they only invite SAMs). I'm not sure how I can represent everyone else in the community.

Your opinion about spending extra time to /shout for specific setup IS a separate issue. Most ppl who /shout for specific setup in this game is not because they want max efficiency, but because 1) They're too afraid to lose, so they refuse to use alternative setup 2) The job they /shout for is more PUG friendly than other jobs, and easier/faster to get.

Right not we're not talking about any of the above issues, we're talking about the job balance.

Afania

11-06-2014, 01:13 AM

Dale

11-06-2014, 01:19 AM

A lot of the FFXI player doesn't even post on this forum lol(and yet they only invite SAMs). I'm not sure how I can represent everyone else in the community.

Your opinion about spending extra time to /shout for specific setup IS a separate issue. Most ppl who /shout for specific setup in this game is actually not because they want max efficiency, but because 1) They're too afraid to lose, so they refuse to use alternative setup 2) The job they /shout for is more PUG friendly than other jobs, and easier/faster to get.

Right not we're not talking about any of the above issues, we're talking about job balance.

No it's really not a separate issue. You want to make it one because it highlights how absurd this whole efficiency argument is.

I want to be more efficicent so I'm going to spend longer in Jueno shouting for very specific set ups when I could have probably not been so picky and got the battlefield over with in half the time. It's just stupid.

As far as job balance - Samurais are suppose to have high burst damage. Skill chains are what they do. Of course if you engineer a fight to be as quick and efficient as possible they are going to stand out and out-perform other jobs in terms of damage. That is just common sense and taking advantage of a job's strength.

There is nothing wrong with that nor does it mean there is some huge job imbalance in this game. You have to consider more than just damage when comparing different jobs. You think that's all that matters but it's not. Jobs on this game were never meant to be nor should they be balanced just in terms of damage.

Dale

11-06-2014, 01:22 AM

Please show other ppl who want a more balanced FFXI a door to leave so the entire server only has Dale and his friends, thanks.

You know, if the entire server only has Dale and his friend left, it'd be ideal MMORPG in Dale's mind.

You are mischaracterizing what I said. And all anyone has to do is read what you actually bolded in my quote to see that.

I said this would be a better game without these obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measure in terms of damage per second.

I never said players who want a more balanced game.

When you have to rewrite what I actually said to make your argument, that means two things: 1: you aren't interesting in an honest debate and 2: your argument is weak otherwise you wouldn't have to change what I said to begin with and my actual words would have been enough.

So I stand by what I actually said.

Afania

11-06-2014, 01:39 AM

No it's really not a separate issue. You want to make it one because it highlights how absurd this whole efficiency argument is.

I want to be more efficicent so I'm going to spend longer in Jueno shouting for very specific set ups when I could have probably not been so picky and got the battlefield over with in half the time. It's just stupid.

You weren't reading my previous posts, please read again. I just said when ppl spend 2hr /shouting for a specific setup, it wasn't because they want max efficiency, and they often weren't /shouting for a dmg dealing job.

Personally, I've yet to see a pt shout for a SAM for 1hr while denying every other DD job ever since SoA introduced.

As far as job balance - Samurais are suppose to have high burst damage. Skill chains are what they do. Of course if you engineer a fight to be as quick and efficient as possible they are going to stand out and out-perform other jobs in terms of damage. That is just common sense and taking advantage of a job's strength.

Ok now you're at least talking more about the balance issue instead of "I want FFXI to become an ideal MMORPG where dmg doesn't matter", baby steps I suppose?

If you read my previous posts, I agreed that not every job should be able to do as much burst dmg as SAM.

The point is that there are other burst dmg/zerg jobs like WAR and DRK also do WAY LESS dmg than SAM. In fact, atm if your pt has 2 DD, such as a DRK and a SAM, a SAM soloing 1 single NM are very likely ended up doing more dmg than both SAM and DRK killing the NM together due to SC mechanics and how TP overflow hurts your dmg.

If this isn't design flaw, idk what is.

Again, role playing is irrelevant in this discussion, so does enmity cap. We're talking about "A job soloing does more dmg than A and B job DD together, please find a solution to this". And your only reply was "Just ignore the dmg and have fun", lol.

Afania

11-06-2014, 01:42 AM

You are mischaracterizing what I said. And all anyone has to do is read what you actually bolded in my quote to see that.

I said this would be a better game without these obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measure in terms of damage per second.

I never said players who want a more balanced game.

When you have to rewrite what I actually said to make your argument, that means two things: 1: you aren't interesting in an honest debate and 2: your argument is weak otherwise you wouldn't have to change what I said to begin with and my actual words would have been enough.

So I stand by what I actually said.

No one is measuring other ppl's worth by their dmg. Are you trying to imply that I take this job balance/game design issue to personal lv?

I AM interested in a honest debate about job and game design discussions. However after 30 pages all you're talking about is your personal preference and opinion about fun, I've yet to see a number and game mechanic discussion coming out from you.

I didn't rewrite what you actually said, I just copy and pasted what you said, this is the msg you're sending out after 30 pages of discussion.....we're not supposed to care about dmg because that somehow fits Dale's belief about MMORPG.

Dale

11-06-2014, 01:53 AM

Ok now you're at least talking more about the balance issue instead of "I want FFXI to become an ideal MMORPG where dmg doesn't matter", baby steps I suppose?

If you read my previous posts, I agreed that not every job should be able to do as much burst dmg as SAM.

The point is that there are other burst dmg/zerg jobs like WAR and DRK also do WAY LESS dmg than SAM. In fact, atm if your pt has 2 DD, such as a DRK and a SAM, a SAM soloing 1 single NM are very likely ended up doing more dmg than both SAM and DRK killing the NM together due to SC mechanics and how TP overflow hurts your dmg.

If this isn't design flaw, idk what is.

Again, role playing is irrelevant in this discussion, so does enmity cap. We're talking about "A job soloing does more dmg than A and B job DD together, please find a solution to this". And your only reply was "Just ignore the dmg and have fun", lol.

I really wish you wouldn't put things I never said into quotes as if I had.

"I want FFXI to become an ideal MMORPG where dmg doesn't matter"

I never said this. I said damage should not be the only thing that matters Yes - damage matters. But it's not the only thing that does.

And I would have been happy to just concentrate on balance issues. You were the one who dragged me back into a discussion about the player mentality issue by involving yourself in a discussion I was having with another poster. So you can't blame me for that and there was no need for you take any kind of steps at all, baby or otherwise.

But to address your actual point - yes, Samurais do more damage than other jobs. I've already said that. This is especially true in shorter fights where their burst damage is going to stand out. The difference in me and you is you see that as being blatantly over-powered and an example of some huge job imbalance and I don't.

I believe other factors such as... yes, enmity/defense/utility and other options the job may have at its disposal must be considered before you can claim a job is imbalanced. You want to limit the context to just damage - but I'm not going to do that.

But again: if the point of your post is only to say Samurais are capable of doing more damage than other jobs, then yes: I agree with you. You can see this as some huge problem if you want. But I don't. We can simply agree to disagree about that.

Dale

11-06-2014, 01:55 AM

.
No one is measuring other ppl's worth by their dmg. Are you trying to imply that I take this job balance/game design issue to personal lv?

I AM interested in a honest debate about job and game design discussions. However after 30 pages all you're talking about is your personal preference and opinion about fun, I've yet to see a number and game mechanic discussion coming out from you.

I didn't rewrite what you actually said, I just copy and pasted what you said, this is the msg you're sending out after 30 pages of discussion.....we're not supposed to care about dmg because that somehow fits Dale's belief about MMORPG.

Oh but they are. When some one refuses to group with another based solely on the fact they cannot do as much damage as a Samurai for example: that is exactly what they are doing. As far as what you do on a personal level I don't know and don't need to know :)

And no, you aren't interested in honest debate. Otherwise you would stop exaggerating and re-writing the things I actually say.

And you are the last person who has a right to complain about my posts. You go out of your way to keep stirring up debate with me when I have tried to end it already on several occasions. Once again you are trying to play the victim when you were the one actually starting it.

Afania

11-06-2014, 02:43 AM

Oh but they are. When some one refuses to group with another based solely on the fact they cannot do as much damage as a Samurai for example: that is exactly what they are doing. As far as what you do on a personal level I don't know and don't need to know :)

So you complained that I put words in your mouth but you do the same? Refuse to group with another player has nothing to do with measuring that person's worth. I don't view an individual "worthless" if they play BST. Sometimes I'd invite them, sometimes I don't. If I choose not to, it's often because of other factors(and that involves 5 other person in the pt and how they have fun), that has nothing to do with how I view that person.

What I meant by "taking it to personal lv" is, you used the word "measure everyone's worth" instead of "measure every job's worth".

I really wish you wouldn't put things I never said into quotes as if I had.

"I want FFXI to become an ideal MMORPG where dmg doesn't matter"

I never said this. I said damage should not be the only thing that matters Yes - damage matters. But it's not the only thing that does.

I've never say anything about dmg being the only thing that matters either, it is you who continue to make it sound like that players in FFXI are full of super obsessive SAM only elitists with 0 grey area nor compromise.

If anything this isn't black and white, everyone also has a different threshold toward this issue. Not everyone is extremely super obsessive about dmg that they must have max output, at least I don't....or else I'd play SAM instead of BLU. That doesn't mean I can turn a blind eye and pretend I'm having fun if I see someone purposely make certain decisions without respecting 5 other pt member's opinion about fun. And that doesn't mean I won't try my best to do as much dmg as possible when I play BLU either.

Everyone has different goals when they do event, some wants to play their job in a certain way, or try a different setup, some wants to grind as much plasm per hour. If you want to play a job in a certain way, just pt with like minded player, and vice versa. And it is leader's responsibility to make sure everyone has similar goals and able to accept each other's goals in a team.

If you want to role play, you can't force someone else aiming for max plasm/hr to pt with you. You won't have fun with them pushing you for faster kill, and they won't have fun with someone slowing them down. In the end both sides won't have fun, you can't change that.

Thus, exclude others is completely legit. It's not because I look down toward someone so I choose to exclude them, I do that because the team and that person has different goals, and a team must have same goals to move forward....and have fun together.

Dale

11-06-2014, 02:47 AM

So you complained that I put words in your mouth but you do the same? Refuse to group with another player has nothing to do with measuring that person's worth. I don't view an individual "worthless" if they play BST. Sometimes I'd invite them, sometimes I don't. If I choose not to, it's often because of other factors(and that involves 5 other person in the pt and how they have fun), that has nothing to do with how I view that person.

What I meant by "taking it to personal lv" is, you used the word "measure everyone's worth" instead of "measure every job's worth".
.

Except that I didn't put any words in your mouth. Here is what I said:

When some one refuses to group with another based solely on the fact they cannot do as much damage as a Samurai for example: that is exactly what they are doing

I never said you did it. I said when some one. I did that on purpose to avoid this response too. But seems I still got it.

So once again you are trying to change what I said to make it sound like I was attacking you when I wasn't. It would help if you would just read what I actually say instead of allowing it to incite different implications.

Afania

11-06-2014, 02:51 AM

When some one refuses to group with another based solely on the fact they cannot do as much damage as a Samurai for example: that is exactly what they are doing

I never said you did it. I said when some one. I did that on purpose to avoid this response too. But seems I still got it.

So once again you are trying to change what I said to make it sound like I was attacking you when I wasn't. It would help if you would just read what I actually say instead of allowing it to incite different implications :)

When I said "personal lv" I wasn't implying you're personal attacking me, I was talking about how you think obsessive players measure other players as a person just because of their dmg.

This is your original quote:

I said this would be a better game without these obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measure in terms of damage per second.

IMO, yes it's a pretty aggressive statement.

Dale

11-06-2014, 02:56 AM

IMO, yes it's a pretty aggressive statement.

Yes, it was an aggressive statement. However it was not aimed at you now was it?

It was aimed precisely at those obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measured in terms of damage per second. I should also point out that post wasn't even directed at one of your posts either. It was toward a whole different poster.

You are acting like someone who has a guilty conscious or something. Because you keep thinking all of my posts are talking about your own personal feelings. I wonder why that is.

And of course when I say someone's worth it is meant in the context of the game and their perceived value as a party member.

Ulth

11-06-2014, 03:41 AM

I'm pretty sure they knew what they are doing too. They just don't obsess over damage in the same way some of the players on this game does :)

It's just not a big deal. I do content regularly with Samurais and without them. People who act like there is such a massive imbalance that no job but samurai deserves a party invite are exaggerating to the point they really aren't worth paying attention to. So I don't blame the developers for ignoring them. I would too. And if they threatened to leave the game over it - I would show them where the door was.

This would be a better game without these obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measured in terms of damage per second. I'm tired of it. They are a plague on MMORPGs as far as I'm concerned.

You are really stupid aren't you? The devs do obsess over damage. It is literally their jobs. Every thing they change in every update is them obsessing over damage. They don't just pull random numbers out of a hat to make up the stats on new equipment, they think, compare it to gear that is already in the game, and build it. And yes there is a massive imbalance between samurai and other damage dealing jobs. I know that, the devs know that, everyone knows that. Why don't you know that? You think the reason it balances out is because they take more damage? They are a heavy armor job; also with +1 skirmish armor any job can have capped pdt mdt. The reason you see samurai get face rolled is because they are doing something like wearing 109 instead of 119. Comparing one job at 109 and another at 119 is not a very good way of balancing things. And yeah the devs are trying to balance jobs. Why else would every update have job adjustments if not for that reason. Also I'm sure this will come as a shock but when picking a damage dealer for a party, the amount of damage they can do matters. That's why when you pick a healer you get a white mage, because they heal the best. Player's measure worth in worth. Also when they spend hours shouting, it's for stuff like bard. The world is lousy with samurai, nobody needs to shout for that.

Side note, Afania they will not nerf samurai. The amount of backlash of nerfing a job is way worst than just trying to buff all the other jobs to just below sam level like how I'm sure the devs want. You may think this makes the game too easy, but don't worry. I'm sure delve 3 will be gruelingly hard. And then people could always do stuff like spamming high tier battles on Very Difficult, instead of just Difficult.

Dale

11-06-2014, 04:06 AM

You are really stupid aren't you? The devs do obsess over damage. It is literally their jobs. Every thing they change in every update is them obsessing over damage. They don't just pull random numbers out of a hat to make up the stats on new equipment, they think, compare it to gear that is already in the game, and build it. And yes there is a massive imbalance between samurai and other damage dealing jobs. I know that, the devs know that, everyone knows that. Why don't you know that? You think the reason it balances out is because they take more damage? They are a heavy armor job; also with +1 skirmish armor any job can have capped pdt mdt. The reason you see samurai get face rolled is because they are doing something like wearing 109 instead of 119. Comparing one job at 109 and another at 119 is not a very good way of balancing things. And yeah the devs are trying to balance jobs. Why else would every update have job adjustments if not for that reason. Also I'm sure this will come as a shock but when picking a damage dealer for a party, the amount of damage they can do matters. That's why when you pick a healer you get a white mage, because they heal the best. Player's measure worth in worth. Also when they spend hours shouting, it's for stuff like bard. The world is lousy with samurai, nobody needs to shout for that.

There is a difference in attempting to balance damage appropriately and then someone obsessing over it. Such as someone acting as if it's the only thing that matters and they must have the job that does the most damage to do anything.

Also, I should point out I heal content all the time as my Red Mage. I've never had any players try to give me the boot because I'm not worth as much as a White Mage to them simply because they can heal better.

Not all players measure others in the same way you seem to. And it would be a huge mistake for the developers to try and equalize all jobs in an attempt to appease this kind of thinking. I've seen what it can lead to and I would prefer not to see that kind of shallow gameplay come to this game. Because I like job diversity and how different jobs have strengths and weaknesses. And it's not worth giving that up just because some players can't be bothered to accommodate each other and learn to work as a team to overcome weaknesses and instead just choose to concentrate on the jobs with singular strengths and ignore everyone else.

As far as Samurais being so massively over-powered, I just haven't noticed it. But since so many people feel so strongly about it I'll admit there is probably some work to be done here. I just think it's being exaggerated and players are needlessly obsessing over it even to the point they won't even group with other DD jobs who now feel they don't even contribute. And that is probably why you don't see the developers coming out of their boots to rush to solve it. I doubt it's because all of the developers play Samurai. They probably realize it's being blown out of proportion as well and will probably just do minor tweaks in an effort to gradually stem the madness.

Ulth

11-06-2014, 07:03 AM

There is a difference in attempting to balance damage appropriately and then someone obsessing over it. Such as someone acting as if it's the only thing that matters and they must have the job that does the most damage to do anything.

Also, I should point out I heal content all the time as my Red Mage. I've never had any players try to give me the boot because I'm not worth as much as a White Mage to them simply because they can heal better.

Not all players measure others in the same way you seem to. And it would be a huge mistake for the developers to try and equalize all jobs in an attempt to appease this kind of thinking. I've seen what it can lead to and I would prefer not to see that kind of shallow gameplay come to this game. Because I like job diversity and how different jobs have strengths and weaknesses. And it's not worth giving that up just because some players can't be bothered to accommodate each other and learn to work as a team to overcome weaknesses and instead just choose to concentrate on the jobs with singular strengths and ignore everyone else.

As far as Samurais being so massively over-powered, I just haven't noticed it. But since so many people feel so strongly about it I'll admit there is probably some work to be done here. I just think it's being exaggerated and players are needlessly obsessing over it even to the point they won't even group with other DD jobs who now feel they don't even contribute. And that is probably why you don't see the developers coming out of their boots to rush to solve it. I doubt it's because all of the developers play Samurai. They probably realize it's being blown out of proportion as well and will probably just do minor tweaks in an effort to gradually stem the madness.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. That has to be the most infuriating part about your posts. You Don't know what you are talking about, how the jobs are unbalanced, or how people are actually playing, but you still act like you do. The two of you arguing this entire time is pretty annoying, but at least Afania knows about the game mechanics, which is the topic of this topic. Or I think that was the topic before all the nonsense started. Either you are some sort of troll, in which case congratulations on the amount of trolling you accomplished, or you need to work on being informed before hitting reply.

Dale

11-06-2014, 07:10 AM

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. That has to be the most infuriating part about your posts. You Don't know what you are talking about, how the jobs are unbalanced, or how people are actually playing, but you still act like you do. The two of you arguing this entire time is pretty annoying, but at least Afania knows about the game mechanics, which is the topic of this topic. Or I think that was the topic before all the nonsense started. Either you are some sort of troll, in which case congratulations on the amount of trolling you accomplished, or you need to work on being informed before hitting reply.

You are the one calling people stupid and resorting to personal attacks here. So if anyone is being a troll it's you.

Jobs are not suppose to be balanced purely around how much damage they can do. That would make for a very boring game - which is why a lot of the more modern MMORPGs are just that: boring with absolutely no interesting gameplay or versatility. Just bland DD/Heal/Tank jobs who all function basically the same and serve the same purpose because of thinking like this: which judges the worth of every party member based solely on how much damage they can do or how much their heals can do etc.

Ulth

11-06-2014, 07:53 AM

You are the one calling people stupid and resorting to personal attacks here. So if anyone is being a troll it's you.

Jobs are not suppose to be balanced purely around how much damage they can do. That would make for a very boring game - which is why a lot of the more modern MMORPGs are just that: boring with absolutely no interesting gameplay or versatility. Just bland DD/Heal/Tank jobs who all function basically the same and serve the same purpose because of thinking like this: which judges the worth of every party member based solely on how much damage they can do or how much their heals can do etc.

A personal attack is something like "you are wrong because you're stupid." When I called you stupid it was more of the point I was trying to make. "You are stupid, here are the reasons why you are wrong." I do find it funny that you would try to take the moral high ground on personal attacks though. Since you do have like 30 pages of you making them. However in my last post I should have made more of an effort on why you clearly don't know what you are talking about, but I'm only willing to spoon feed information to people that will actually listen. And since there isn't enough hours in the day to correct every wrong thing you say, I will leave it at that. Feel free to reply; I know you like to have the last word.