Useless spells

[Zekander]

There are many spells in a Red Mage's arsenal that never see the light of day, and I seem to recall reading a dev post that stated a hardcoded limit to the total number of spells that can be in the game. No doubt they will devise a workaround for this eventually, but until then I would like to suggest reworking some of those spells that go completely unused so that they are actually useful.

I would like to start out with one spell in particular, or more accurately, six spells, that are completely useless in virtually all situations. These spells are of course the Tier 2 En-spells.

As far as I know, no one uses these spells for anything. Ever.

This situation can be very easily remedied, simply remove an arbitrary and completely unnecessary limitation.

In case you don't know, En-spell IIs only proc on the first weapon swing, excluding off-hand and multi-attacks. This limitation alone makes these spells completely worthless, especially so with the high level focus on multi-attacks and dual wielding.

I'm sure this request has been made many times before, but with the recent influx of melee oriented gear made available to Red Mage perhaps now they might be willing to listen.

There is absolutely no reason for these spells to be limited in this way, and it would not make a huge difference in anything if they were fixed.

TLDR - Please fix En-spell IIs, or just delete them to make room for new spells.

PS - Feel free to post about your own useless spells, who knows maybe someone will listen.

[Demonjustin]

There's another issue that needs to be corrected with them as well. The fact that Enhancing Magic Skill is taken into account when attacking not when casting, meaning to get decent damage even single wielding you'd have to TP in Enhancing Magic gear... Just thought it worth mentioning since even if they fixed the DW/Multi-Attack issue with them this would still be a pretty big issue with the spells.

[Malithar]

I seem to recall reading a dev post that stated a hardcoded limit to the total number of spells that can be in the game. No doubt they will devise a workaround for this eventually.

I remember that post, and IIRC, it was a good bit before SoA came out. I'd imagine they found that workaround, as they've added dozens of trust spells, 60 Geomancy spells, 12 Elemental Magic spells (-Ra/-Ra II), nearly a couple dozen Blu spells, and a few other random spells, Crusade, Distract/Frazzle/Flurry I and IIs, Foil, Nin spells, etc. Of course I don't know if spell limit is still a concern of theirs at some point, but whatever limit they claimed to be near in the past has been pushed past IMO.

/support fixing Rdm though. Had/played Rdm for awhile, but it's still just not quite where it needs to be as far as what it can offer to a party.

[Rwolf]

I can't find the post but I'm certain I've seen a dev response on here stating they did find a work around to add a ton more spell space in response to saying but they still wouldn't add something a member of the community suggested.

I agree with the OP and like how it was phrased. I also agree with Demonjustin they need to not only remove the limit of only on the main hand but also that you have to wear Enhancing Magic for damage after the spell is cast.

[dasva]

Also what about gain spells... half of them are more or less useless as self only same with temper... make all rdm buffs that are currently self only into at least anyone in party

[Zekander]

Gain spells would at least be used when soloing, possibly gain-int/mnd in parties. The problem with tier 2 en-spells is that they are effectively worse then the tier 1s, so there is no reason to ever use them.

[dasva]

Str would be used melee soloing (though arguably you would never use vit/dex since you wouldn't really solo things you need hit rate on and vit is rather minimal gains) but I can't see a time to ever use chr or chr and and yeah int/mnd good. But I mean that's 4 out of 7 and one is only really good for meleeing which isn't exactly rdms forte and is more of a for fun kind of scenario to begin with which makes it a win more spell at best. Just seems silly that whm can easily AoE them but rdm can only hit itself

I could argue that enspell 2s main purpose was the resistances lowering part... but then that just brings us to meleeing again and things you'd melee wouldn't need the resistance lowered. Now if you could cast it on someone else it might actually be more dmg if you got rid of the enhancing magic check on proc and most your DDs in pts with a rdm are 2hd weapon users. Niche use to be sure but a use

Which kinda brings me back to why not make all rdm only self only spells usable on party members. It would open up the uses on them a lot and SE has made it clear they don't really like rdm solos so why give us essential solo only spells? And it's not like they would be overpowered. Whm can aoe stat and brd can single target a lot more +stat, inferno howl is significantly better then our enspells are right now, Even temper as good as it is wouldn't be as good as fighters roll can get.

[Protey]

Str would be used melee soloing (though arguably you would never use vit/dex since you wouldn't really solo things you need hit rate on and vit is rather minimal gains) but I can't see a time to ever use chr or chr and and yeah int/mnd good. But I mean that's 4 out of 7 and one is only really good for meleeing which isn't exactly rdms forte and is more of a for fun kind of scenario to begin with which makes it a win more spell at best. Just seems silly that whm can easily AoE them but rdm can only hit itself

I could argue that enspell 2s main purpose was the resistances lowering part... but then that just brings us to meleeing again and things you'd melee wouldn't need the resistance lowered. Now if you could cast it on someone else it might actually be more dmg if you got rid of the enhancing magic check on proc and most your DDs in pts with a rdm are 2hd weapon users. Niche use to be sure but a use

Which kinda brings me back to why not make all rdm only self only spells usable on party members. It would open up the uses on them a lot and SE has made it clear they don't really like rdm solos so why give us essential solo only spells? And it's not like they would be overpowered. Whm can aoe stat and brd can single target a lot more +stat, inferno howl is significantly better then our enspells are right now, Even temper as good as it is wouldn't be as good as fighters roll can get.

not use DEX?!? CDC says hi.
fighter's roll barely beats out temper, and that's only with an 11 and with a lolWAR in the party. otherwise temper wins.

[dasva]

not use DEX?!? CDC says hi.
fighter's roll barely beats out temper, and that's only with an 11 and with a lolWAR in the party. otherwise temper wins.

Yes yes I know CDC is dex modded but would that really be better than str for overall dps unless you were in a situation where you knew it would effect your crit rate? Perhaps if you were capped fstr but then we are back to the more win situation.

True only an 11 with war bonus though notice I did specify can get not that it would definitely be better. That said war is far from lol and you can get it 50% of the time with tricorne. Though in retrospect looking back it looks like the data for fighters is somewhat in question... but if it is accurate they would tie on an 11 even without war proc. And with war proc can tie on a 5. But yes all other rolls should be a little lower.

Though that's kinda getting away from the point I was trying to make in that Cor can already do similar things for a party (a lot of other buffs that are fairly powerful especially now) so they can't use the it would be overpowered argument for party casting of temper. Hell make it AoE only so then you have an excuse for getting next to the mob and while you are there melee some

[Protey]

Yes yes I know CDC is dex modded but would that really be better than str for overall dps unless you were in a situation where you knew it would effect your crit rate? Perhaps if you were capped fstr but then we are back to the more win situation.

True only an 11 with war bonus though notice I did specify can get not that it would definitely be better. That said war is far from lol and you can get it 50% of the time with tricorne. Though in retrospect looking back it looks like the data for fighters is somewhat in question... but if it is accurate they would tie on an 11 even without war proc. And with war proc can tie on a 5. But yes all other rolls should be a little lower.

Though that's kinda getting away from the point I was trying to make in that Cor can already do similar things for a party (a lot of other buffs that are fairly powerful especially now) so they can't use the it would be overpowered argument for party casting of temper. Hell make it AoE only so then you have an excuse for getting next to the mob and while you are there melee some

i say lolWAR cuz any DD other than SAM is lol ; ; this is not so much of an opinion as it is just the way the current mechanics of the game are.

[Bebekeke]

i say lolWAR cuz any DD other than SAM is lol ; ; this is not so much of an opinion as it is just the way the current mechanics of the game are.

Yeah... lolRNG!

[Dale]

Going to have to disagree here.

The en-spells 2 are quite good in my opinion. They allow you to lower resistance to the opposite element and I use them almost exclusively. I can understand why you wouldn't want to use them with a multi-hit weapon. But that's the way it should be, because it helps the tier1s retain a purpose as well.

I also like the gain spells. For a quick example: gain dexterity can add useful accuracy to your melee attacks. I don't understand why a Red Mage would have a problem with our gain spells or find them useless.

Red Mage is one of the best designed classes ever on any MMORPG in my opinion. Especially after they got composure.

[Demonjustin]

En-spells are the only spells in the game I can think of that have a second tier that doesn't always beat the first. When you learn a second tier to a spell it is normally a pure upgrade, becoming better in every way than the original. En-spells have two spells that do similar and yet very different things in the end, which results in them situationally trading off. It's a very weird design for them, unlike anything else in the game I can think of in that regard. Honestly, En-spells shouldn't be this way though, IIs should be a pure upgrade, not a situationally superior enhancement that only serves to make us weaker as a whole when we already need as much as we can get in melee damage on the front lines as it is.

[Dale]

En-spells are the only spells in the game I can think of that have a second tier that doesn't always beat the first. When you learn a second tier to a spell it is normally a pure upgrade, becoming better in every way than the original. En-spells have two spells that do similar and yet very different things in the end, which results in them situationally trading off. It's a very weird design for them, unlike anything else in the game I can think of in that regard. Honestly, En-spells shouldn't be this way though, IIs should be a pure upgrade, not a situationally superior enhancement that only serves to make us weaker as a whole when we already need as much as we can get in melee damage on the front lines as it is.

Another example: phalanx 2 isn't a pure upgrade from phalanx 1. It just serves a different purpose, allowing us to cast on other party members. So I don't see why a new tier always needs to be a pure upgrade. In fact I think it's better that it just allows a different usage of the spell, that way neither spell becomes useless or obsolete.

Also, considering the vast amount of support utility this class has now, I think our melee damage is fine. So I don't share your opinion that we are weak. Nor do I understand why you feel the tier2 en spells make us weaker. They just provide us with a way to reduce resistances while at the same time adding some damage to our melee attacks. It doesn't weaken the class.

[Raydeus]

Sorry guys but you just don't know how to play RDM if Enspell I&II mechanics throw you off like that, same with Gain spells, if you don't know how each stat affects you then you don't know why it is such an advantage to be able to chose a stat to boost at will.

What you should be complaining about instead is how badly RDM spells scale with skill and how low the caps are set on them, also about how the merit spells should be scrolls instead with merits used to either enhance them directly or generally.

But the mechanics of spells are good, you just need to learn2play and to adapt to situations.

[Olor]

Red Mage is one of the best designed classes ever on any MMORPG in my opinion. Especially after they got composure.

I lol'ed hard. Love rdm. This statement is hilarious.

[Zekander]

I am also of the opinion that tier 2 spells should make tier 1s obsolete. If you want to make spells that do different things, fine go ahead, but just call them what they are different spells.

Furthermore, the reference you give for precedent is another Red Mage spell, one that is also completely useless due to Accession from /SCH.

[Bebekeke]

T2 enspells have a great utility in Monstrosity, if nothing else :)

[Dale]

I am also of the opinion that tier 2 spells should make tier 1s obsolete. If you want to make spells that do different things, fine go ahead, but just call them what they are different spells.

Furthermore, the reference you give for precedent is another Red Mage spell, one that is also completely useless due to Accession from /SCH.

Not really, unless you are assuming every red mage subs scholar. Not to mention accession/phalanx requires you to move in, which can be dangerous in some situations. It also requires a limited charge that the Red Mage may want to reserve for something else. Phalanx 2 is not completely useless.

I also think it's strange that on a post complaining about spells being useless in seems you are in favor of making spells obsolete by adding new tiers. Seems they can't win for losing.

[Dale]

I lol'ed hard. Love rdm. This statement is hilarious.

Why is the statement that I think Red Mage is one of the best designed classes so hilarious?

Very few games have been able to pull off an effective support class role. This game's Red Mage is one of the very few that has succeeded at it.

[Zekander]

Few spells have no use whatsoever, one could argue that tier 2 enspells would be useful to a red mage between levels 50 and 70 that is using a subjob other then war, nin, or dnc, but this is such a narrow use that it renders them effectively useless.

I know it's easy these days to forget that there are levels between 30 and 99, you may notice from my character info that I am currently in the process of leveling RDM. Old school. I'm fighting VT-IT mobs with trust npcs and I'm having fun doing it. The entire point of leveling up is to grow stronger, to get better equipment and better spells. This inevitably makes old equipment and spells obsolete. We pretty much all agree that tier 2 enspells are currently not better in general then tier 1s and it just frustrates me knowing that when I hit 50 and got Tier 2 enspells I was getting a side-grade at best.

I suppose success can be measured in inches.

[Raydeus]

You really don't know what you are talking about.

[Selindrile]

Why is the statement that I think Red Mage is one of the best designed classes so hilarious?

Very few games have been able to pull off an effective support class role. This game's Red Mage is one of the very few that has succeeded at it.

Because they were designed with "meleeing, in a party atmosphere" in mind, which has never, ever been the norm, Rdm was pretty much ignored by the populace before Refresh was made, that one spell skyrocketed it into usefulness above all other jobs, debuffing was possible but never really all that reliable on ITs (except Bio/Dia) that were the bread and butter of oldschool XI, and yes they obsoleted Whm, but that wasn't out of better design overall, they were both pretty barebones before Whm got Afflatuses and Rdm got Composure.

The reason Rdm suceeded as a support mage had nothing to do with it's overall design, it was and is access to unique buffs and debuffs which are very useful, which ones are useful have changed over the years with the content.

From a design perspective Drg, Sch, Dnc, were much better thought out and crafted jobs, good concept design doesn't always translate to actual ingame utility if the numbers aren't balanced. (Though admittedly composure was a really cool and successful design choice, once they added that.)

As for other MMOs successful support classes: Enchanter and Bard from EQ? Shamans from WoW? Control Wizard from NWN? (I haven't played every MMO out there but those pop into my head right off as great examples of successful support classes from popular MMOs.)

[Dale]

Because they were designed with "meleeing, in a party atmosphere" in mind, which has never, ever been the norm, Rdm was pretty much ignored by the populace before Refresh was made, that one spell skyrocketed it into usefulness above all other jobs, debuffing was possible but never really all that reliable on ITs (except Bio/Dia) that were the bread and butter of oldschool XI, and yes they obsoleted Whm, but that wasn't out of better design overall, they were both pretty barebones before Whm got Afflatuses and Rdm got Composure.

The reason Rdm suceeded as a support mage had nothing to do with it's overall design, it was and is access to unique buffs and debuffs which are very useful, which ones are useful have changed over the years with the content.

From a design perspective Drg, Sch, Dnc, were much better thought out and crafted jobs, good concept design doesn't always translate to actual ingame utility if the numbers aren't balanced. (Though admittedly composure was a really cool and successful design choice, once they added that.)

As for other MMOs successful support classes: Enchanter and Bard from EQ? Shamans from WoW? Control Wizard from NWN? (I haven't played every MMO out there but those pop into my head right off as great examples of successful support classes from popular MMOs.)

I'll agree with you the job was flawed before composure was added. But giving the job unique buffs and enfeebles and changing them for the better is part of its design and why it succeeds as a support class to begin with. So I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about. I was never trying to say Red Mage was well-designed from the beginning. It wasn't. I'm judging the class as it stands today.

Also Red Mage can function as support in melee. You'll just need a lot of accuracy gear and it may not be ideal to engage against certain notorious monsters. But in most party settings - even against incredibly toughs - Red Mage can use melee adequately if they so choose. They will never be balanced with a dragoon as you point out. But they shouldn't be. It's a support class, and we aren't suppose to be balanced with other classes in melee damage. That's why we can use phalanx 2 and haste 2 on the dragoon you mention and turn him into a beast.

I never played EQ or NWN, but the support Shaman in WoW failed. It's now just used as a healer or damage dealer.

[Dale]

Few spells have no use whatsoever, one could argue that tier 2 enspells would be useful to a red mage between levels 50 and 70 that is using a subjob other then war, nin, or dnc, but this is such a narrow use that it renders them effectively useless.

I know it's easy these days to forget that there are levels between 30 and 99, you may notice from my character info that I am currently in the process of leveling RDM. Old school. I'm fighting VT-IT mobs with trust npcs and I'm having fun doing it. The entire point of leveling up is to grow stronger, to get better equipment and better spells. This inevitably makes old equipment and spells obsolete. We pretty much all agree that tier 2 enspells are currently not better in general then tier 1s and it just frustrates me knowing that when I hit 50 and got Tier 2 enspells I was getting a side-grade at best.

I suppose success can be measured in inches.

I don't understand why you think being able to lower an enemy's resistance is only useful while leveling up. But you are entitled to your opinion. Since I already let me views about the En-Spells 2 be known I'll just leave it at that.

I just wanted to let you know that as a Red Mage you have a lot of powerful spell upgrades in the way you prefer to look forward to. Distract 2, Frazzle 2, Haste 2, Flurry 2, Gravity 2, Shell V to name a few. So I wouldn't let the tier 2 en spells frustrate you. You have plenty of spell upgrades in the pipe line. Not to mention you just got Refresh 2, which is about as nice of a spell upgrade someone can ask for.

[Selindrile]

At any given time, there was generally only ONE reason to invite a RDM, currently, that reason is Haste II, previously in the past it has been different things, mostly one at a time, whether it be Refresh or Gravity or Phalanx II or Dia III, this is not good design, these abilities do not generally work together to form an interesting whole, interesting choices at their core etc etc. Right now we invite Rdms because they have Haste II, and they can replace Sch's job of stunning reasonably well.

Sure Rdm can function as support in melee, heck, so can Whm, but it's way less efficient to do so, mostly because of the AoE moves of monsters slowing down your reaction time for your primary jobs, requiring healing and supporting yourself, etc putting such a job with a ton of support juggling into melee was never really thought out well design wise, which is the same trap that is the downfall of Dnc, despite them being much more interesting, design wise. It was already stated though that what is well thought out in the design realm doesn't always translate into ingame usefulness. Composure itself is a neat design choice, choosing between recast timers and lengthened buffs is actually a choice in the present day (primarily Haste II length VS Stun recast) but it wasn't really always.

Shaman was at some point in history a wonderfully successful support, Innervate added a lot to a party (much like Refresh), as later they were a Heroism whore, though that was much like Rdm, a one-trick pony, they could melee far more efficiently than other support mages, throw some heals and buff many jobs. I'm not sure their current state, admittedly, I haven't played WoW in some time, but they were very popular in a support role, and very "successful" by that standard. And in fairness Rdm has certainly had their ups and downs, even in recent history. In the Aby era they were a Phalanx source for cleaves, in VW era they were basically unused Chainspell Stun onry on a couple mobs, in early delve they were basically there to land blind on Kuku and dispel Kurma's Defense Boost before everyone had as much Macc, then they fell by the wayside until Haste II and Flurry came out. You can hardly call Rdm generically successful, and definitely not from a design perspective, they've had a lot of ups and downs, as have most jobs, but they definitely aren't a shining example of design.

Well designed jobs are one who display interactivity, dependancy, and synergy between ones' abilities. "Well Balanced" and "Well Designed" are two different things, I never said anything about Rdm not being balanced with a melee job having anything to do with anything. Drg for example is a relatively weak overall job, but wyvern differences depending on subjob, spells from other jobs triggering a wyvern's abilities, wses removing debuffs, or being more offensive in nature with other subjobs and of course the wyvern levelling up, ability to grant your wyvern your buffs, these things are interesting, they were ultimately underpowered by and large, but that doesn't make them poorly designed, only poorly balanced.

[Dale]

At any given time, there was generally only ONE reason to invite a RDM, currently, that reason is Haste II, previously in the past it has been different things, mostly one at a time, whether it be Refresh or Gravity or Phalanx II or Dia III, this is not good design, these abilities do not generally work together to form an interesting whole, interesting choices at their core etc etc. Right now we invite Rdms because they have Haste II, and they can replace Sch's job of stunning reasonably well.

Sure Rdm can function as support in melee, heck, so can Whm, but it's way less efficient to do so, mostly because of the AoE moves of monsters slowing down your reaction time for your primary jobs, requiring healing and supporting yourself, etc putting such a job with a ton of support juggling into melee was never really thought out well design wise, which is the same trap that is the downfall of Dnc, despite them being much more interesting, design wise. It was already stated though that what is well thought out in the design realm doesn't always translate into ingame usefulness. Composure itself is a neat design choice, choosing between recast timers and lengthened buffs is actually a choice in the present day (primarily Haste II length VS Stun recast) but it wasn't really always.

Shaman was at some point in history a wonderfully successful support, Innervate added a lot to a party (much like Refresh), as later they were a Heroism whore, though that was much like Rdm, a one-trick pony, they could melee far more efficiently than other support mages, throw some heals and buff many jobs. I'm not sure their current state, admittedly, I haven't played WoW in some time, but they were very popular in a support role, and very "successful" by that standard. And in fairness Rdm has certainly had their ups and downs, even in recent history. In the Aby era they were a Phalanx source for cleaves, in VW era they were basically unused Chainspell Stun onry on a couple mobs, in early delve they were basically there to land blind on Kuku and dispel Kurma's Defense Boost before everyone had as much Macc, then they fell by the wayside until Haste II and Flurry came out. You can hardly call Rdm generically successful, and definitely not from a design perspective, they've had a lot of ups and downs, as have most jobs, but they definitely aren't a shining example of design.

Well designed jobs are one who display interactivity, dependancy, and synergy between's ones' abilities. "Well Balanced" and "Well Designed" are two different things, I never said anything about Rdm not being balanced with a melee job having anything to do with anything. Drg for example is a relatively weak overall job, but wyvern differences depending on subjob, spells from other jobs triggering a wyvern's abilities, wses removing debuffs, or being more offensive in nature with other subjobs and of course the wyvern levelling up, ability to grant your wyvern your buffs, these things are interesting, they were ultimately underpowered by and large, but that doesn't make them poorly designed, only poorly balanced.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point because I do believe Red Mage to be an accomplishment in design. It has evolved extremely well on this game and I've seen a job I used to loath quite possibly become my favorite.

They have unique and powerful buffs useful to both casters and melee while still maintaining modest offensive and defensive capabilities for themselves. To me that is what a support job requires to maintain relevance. Rather you call it design or balance is a matter of semantics I think.

As far as what used to be in the past you may or may not be right. I am speaking terms of the present only and don't wish to debate the way things used to be. I agreed with you the job was not well designed from the beginning and many of your points about past problems are well-taken.

On a side not: I have no idea why you think Dragoon is a weak class. In the right hands that job is insane - especially with some Red Mage support ^^

[Malithar]

They have unique and powerful buffs useful to both casters and melee

Such as?

At best, Haste II saves your Brd from singing one March, at worst, it adds nothing further since we're already capping magical haste. Refresh II is always nifty but largely unneeded. Dia III is lackluster in a world with Geo-Frailty, though it doesn't hurt. Distract and Frazzle II aren't bad, but those alone aren't enough to suddenly make Rdm sought after, specially when Brd's Madrigals or Geo's Precision/Torpor do more. The only unique buff Rdm has that'd I'd consider them for a slot for is Flurry II in a Rng setup, even more so if it's a fight where a Whm isn't needed.

I used to be a fan of what Rdm was capable of doing, the various options it had. Now, honestly, just go play Geo/Rdm and melee. Depending on the content, your (as well as your parties) damage will greatly benefit from Geo/Indi Frailty + Fury. /Rdm affords you the ability to keep a Haste/Flurry/Refresh rotation, spot cures, Dia II, and the full line of tier 1 debuffs, if any of that's needed, if not, get on the front lines and make things actually die faster. Rdm just has far too much to do to melee effectively, and the things it has available to do are generally too ineffective to be of real worth, beyond Haste/Flurry/Dia/Refresh.

[Dale]

Such as?

At best, Haste II saves your Brd from singing one March, at worst, it adds nothing further since we're already capping magical haste. Refresh II is always nifty but largely unneeded. Dia III is lackluster in a world with Geo-Frailty, though it doesn't hurt. Distract and Frazzle II aren't bad, but those alone aren't enough to suddenly make Rdm sought after, specially when Brd's Madrigals or Geo's Precision/Torpor do more. The only unique buff Rdm has that'd I'd consider them for a slot for is Flurry II in a Rng setup, even more so if it's a fight where a Whm isn't needed.

I used to be a fan of what Rdm was capable of doing, the various options it had. Now, honestly, just go play Geo/Rdm and melee. Depending on the content, your (as well as your parties) damage will greatly benefit from Geo/Indi Frailty + Fury. /Rdm affords you the ability to keep a Haste/Flurry/Refresh rotation, spot cures, Dia II, and the full line of tier 1 debuffs, if any of that's needed, if not, get on the front lines and make things actually die faster. Rdm just has far too much to do to melee effectively, and the things it has available to do are generally too ineffective to be of real worth, beyond Haste/Flurry/Dia/Refresh.

You just went through a whole list of examples then discredited them with what I would consider a very dubious logic.

For example, you admit refresh 2 is nifty, but then say it's unneeded. Well, you can make that argument about everything I suppose. As nothing red mage has is really needed, because it is possible to defeat enemies without them. Red Mages are their to support and make things easier for the group or pitch hit for other roles (though to a lesser degree) when they are not available. They aren't a must have .

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't find your reasons convincing. You admit they have a lot of good stuff. But then you explain why they aren't needed or other jobs can do similar effects. If you want to find a reason to find fault with something bad enough, you can. And people who want to stand out (a phrase I keep seeing in the rdm forums) and provide an essential role probably shouldn't play a support class, because they are probably always going to feel inadequate being one.

Yes bard can haste as well. But they are a support class too. So is a Geomancer. To imply Red Mages aren't good because they have spells similar to other support classes that fill the same role doesn't make much sense to me. That's like saying there is a problem with a monk because a warrior can do damage too.

I also take issue with you saying the only thing of worth a Red Mage has is Haste/Flurry/Dia/Refresh. To me that is selling this job short. But as I told that other guy, you are entitled to your opinion and I don't see the point in arguing it cause I doubt either of us are going to change our minds. Just for me to get my point across and let the developers know that I am impressed with what they have done with this job is good enough for me.

[Zekander]

I don't understand why you think being able to lower an enemy's resistance is only useful while leveling up. But you are entitled to your opinion. Since I already let me views about the En-Spells 2 be known I'll just leave it at that.

I just wanted to let you know that as a Red Mage you have a lot of powerful spell upgrades in the way you prefer to look forward to. Distract 2, Frazzle 2, Haste 2, Flurry 2, Gravity 2, Shell V to name a few. So I wouldn't let the tier 2 en spells frustrate you. You have plenty of spell upgrades in the pipe line. Not to mention you just got Refresh 2, which is about as nice of a spell upgrade someone can ask for.

I haven't even mentioned the lowered resistance effect because of two reasons. Firstly and most important the relationships between resistances were not well thought out at all; EX Enthunder II lowers resistance to earth, thunder is strong against water, which generally has no special resistance to earth, so you aren't aiming at the enemy's weakness to improve the damage of your enspell. Now this would be acceptable if the element were at least neutral, but earth is generally resistant to thunder so in order to reduce the resistance of an earth based mob you are forced to use an element that is weak against the target you are attacking, severely reducing the damage from the enspell. Again, you could argue that you aren't helping yourself with the spell, you are helping other members of your party, but to have such an obvious defect just goes to show how far out of the way SE was going to really screw RDM with these spells. The second reason is that any mob you would actually need the resistance effect for is going to be incredibly strong anyway and both difficult for a RDM to hit in melee and dangerous to be near anyway.

As for the other spells I really haven't had to use any of them so far, I eat sushi and my accuracy is fine against the mobs I fight with double march from Ulmia so I haven't needed Distract. I merited my enfeebling magic skill so my magic accuracy is good even in melee gear so I haven't had to use frazzle. I understand that these spells are much more useful in a real party, but that won't happen till 99 so they aren't really something to look forward to yet. Does Gravity 2 even have a use anymore? They removed the evasion down effect from it and I've heard that most things are immune to gravity now anyway.

[Dale]

I haven't even mentioned the lowered resistance effect because of two reasons. Firstly and most important the relationships between resistances were not well thought out at all; EX Enthunder II lowers resistance to earth, thunder is strong against water, which generally has no special resistance to earth, so you aren't aiming at the enemy's weakness to improve the damage of your enspell. Now this would be acceptable if the element were at least neutral, but earth is generally resistant to thunder so in order to reduce the resistance of an earth based mob you are forced to use an element that is weak against the target you are attacking, severely reducing the damage from the enspell. Again, you could argue that you aren't helping yourself with the spell, you are helping other members of your party, but to have such an obvious defect just goes to show how far out of the way SE was going to really screw RDM with these spells. The second reason is that any mob you would actually need the resistance effect for is going to be incredibly strong anyway and both difficult for a RDM to hit in melee and dangerous to be near anyway.

As for the other spells I really haven't had to use any of them so far, I eat sushi and my accuracy is fine against the mobs I fight with double march from Ulmia so I haven't needed Distract. I merited my enfeebling magic skill so my magic accuracy is good even in melee gear so I haven't had to use frazzle. I understand that these spells are much more useful in a real party, but that won't happen till 99 so they aren't really something to look forward to yet. Does Gravity 2 even have a use anymore? They removed the evasion down effect from it and I've heard that most things are immune to gravity now anyway.

I'm still not following your logic. Enfeebles are meant for difficult monsters. That is the whole point as to why you would need to enfeeble them to begin with. And take it from me, distract II does indeed help when I am fighting very tough monsters in the gates and need to land my melee attacks. The fact you use a support trust eat sushi and fight easier monsters you can hit more easily doesn't make these spells useless or mean SE has somehow screwed us.

And helping members of your party helps you as well. It's a team effort. And you could party before you are level 99. That's just a choice you make.

Gravity is good for when you need to slow the enemy down to escape or kite. Many NMs are immune to it, but it still works on many things.

And you can't talk about En Spells 2 without mentioning the lower resistance function. That is part what the spell does. And losing a little bit of damage on your melee swings is worth it if it helps you land important spells you are having trouble sticking.

I would suggest going out and fighting more difficult monsters. With trusts it is possible to chain Very/Incredibly Toughs and it might give you more of an appreciation of what the Red Mage has to offer. Because it is a powerful support class and can turn a losing party into a winning party.

[Zekander]

You missed the post where I said I was fighting VT/IT mobs. And you missed where I said I was using Ulmia for double march, no extra accuracy there. And you missed right there where I said I know distract and frazzle are useful for party situations. And I think I gave a reasonable argument as to why the resistance function is not worthwhile. And since I can easily defeat IT mobs, what exactly am I running from with Gravity?

Not trying to be mean but you seem to be overlooking my salient points.

[Dale]

You missed the post where I said I was fighting VT/IT mobs. And you missed where I said I was using Ulmia for double march, no extra accuracy there. And you missed right there where I said I know distract and frazzle are useful for party situations. And I think I gave a reasonable argument as to why the resistance function is not worthwhile. And since I can easily defeat IT mobs, what exactly am I running from with Gravity?

Not trying to be mean but you seem to be overlooking my salient points.

I re-read the post I quoted and no where did you mention you were fighting IT mobs. In fact it gave the impression you wasn't fighting incredibly strong monsters, since you said the spells you found no use for would only be good against something very difficult. So that is why I assumed that.

Also I never said you were using Ulimia for extra accuracy. I just said you were using a support trust and eating sushi.

I know you said they would be useful for party situations. But I was telling you they are useful when fighting difficult mobs when soloing as well. Once you reach the new areas and fight the higher level monsters their evasion is insane. Even with sushi and a ton of accuracy gear it can still be difficult to hit monsters. Distract II will help. Though even at your level I would still think distract would help you. But if you say it doesn't, fine. I'll accept that. Much of the earlier content has been made easier since my days of doing it. But it will when the fighting the high level monsters in the new areas. That I can attest to personally.

And I never said your argument wasn't reasonable. I just didn't agree with it. Losing a little bit of damage is fair trade off to me if it helps me land my spells.

As far as gravity, I never said you personally was running from anything. I was giving an example of when it could be useful. If you are so awesome you have never had to run from something or kite something then perhaps it is useless to a demi god such as yourself ^^

[Zekander]

Few spells have no use whatsoever, one could argue that tier 2 enspells would be useful to a red mage between levels 50 and 70 that is using a subjob other then war, nin, or dnc, but this is such a narrow use that it renders them effectively useless.

I know it's easy these days to forget that there are levels between 30 and 99, you may notice from my character info that I am currently in the process of leveling RDM. Old school. I'm fighting VT-IT mobs with trust npcs and I'm having fun doing it. The entire point of leveling up is to grow stronger, to get better equipment and better spells. This inevitably makes old equipment and spells obsolete. We pretty much all agree that tier 2 enspells are currently not better in general then tier 1s and it just frustrates me knowing that when I hit 50 and got Tier 2 enspells I was getting a side-grade at best.

I suppose success can be measured in inches.

I'm not arguing about spells I have no use for in soloing, I'm arguing that tier 2 enspells specifically are poorly designed and effectively useless in the majority of situations, I have absolutely no problems with distract/frazzle/flurry etc. When bad things happen I use Sleep, I know some things are immune, but I haven't fought any yet. And yeah you are right the mobs in the adoulin areas are much stronger, which is why I rarely fight them on my other jobs.

[Dale]

I'm not arguing about spells I have no use for in soloing, I'm arguing that tier 2 enspells specifically are poorly designed and effectively useless in the majority of situations, I have absolutely no problems with distract/frazzle/flurry etc. When bad things happen I use Sleep, I know some things are immune, but I haven't fought any yet. And yeah you are right the mobs in the adoulin areas are much stronger, which is why I rarely fight them on my other jobs.

Yes but that was not the post I was responding. If you are expecting me to remember everything you say in your postings prepared to be disappointed :)

Here is what you said in the actual post I was addressing though: The second reason is that any mob you would actually need the resistance effect for is going to be incredibly strong anyway

This is why I assumed you were not fighting incredible tough monsters. It was not an assumption without cause. And I wasn't saying you never said it. I was just defending myself as to why I assumed you wasn't in that post.

But anyway, if we can agree these spells are useful against the higher level monsters in Adoulin then we are in agreement and debate over. Because that is really all I was trying to get across.

[Demonjustin]

Let me start by saying I'm sorry that this post might be a bit long and from a while back. I took a break from the forums for a short time so I fell behind, that said there are some things I want to reply to so~ I hope you'll forgive me replying to old posts.


Another example: phalanx 2 isn't a pure upgrade from phalanx 1. It just serves a different purpose, allowing us to cast on other party members. So I don't see why a new tier always needs to be a pure upgrade. In fact I think it's better that it just allows a different usage of the spell, that way neither spell becomes useless or obsolete.Not really. Assuming you have 5/5 Phalanx II both spells cap at -35 damage, the difference being that one can be cast on others while the other is self only. The second tier also scales in a way that makes it much more powerful than the original until you hit 300+ Enhancing Magic, at which point they even out. The upgrade II gets is the ability to cast on other players, the only real flaw with it is the lack of ability to use Accession with it, which isn't an issue since the original's potency is the same as the second. I admit all of this requires 5/5 merits, but that's how powerful the spell should be anyways, as with any merit spell.


Also, considering the vast amount of support utility this class has now, I think our melee damage is fine. So I don't share your opinion that we are weak. Nor do I understand why you feel the tier2 en spells make us weaker. They just provide us with a way to reduce resistances while at the same time adding some damage to our melee attacks. It doesn't weaken the class.There's a difference between saying that having something weakens a class, and saying that the something the class has is weaker than it should be, or that the something is weaker than another something that isn't able to be stacked with the original. Enspell IIs do make RDM a stronger job than it would be without them. That said, they're weaker than our original Enspells in most situations. If I'm in a situation I need magic accuracy enough to lose my DMG for the sake of my(-10?) elemental resist I'm likely using a staff for the additional magic accuracy anyways and won't hit anything with my Enspell to begin with. It's just not practical to use Enspell IIs in most situations, even single wielding they're almost always worse than the originals due to how the Enhancing Magic calculation works and our ease of stacking Double Attack thanks to Temper.

Changing the IIs to be a real upgrade, a real second tier, wouldn't in any way make us overpowered. It would only serve to make the spells more useful and at the same time make them more sensical. I can't for the life of me understand why Enhancing Magic should be calculated on hit when the originals weren't, I can think of no reason that this is necessary or defensible. That alone feels like more of a glitch than a feature, and yet it's never been addressed.

In either case, the last thing I want to say on this is that I'm a large advocate for RDMs meleeing. We're not exactly weak, but we are left behind by most other front line jobs quite easily. Even in our best possible gear I have a hard time keeping up with your average DDs thanks to our flaws. We have a lack of gear other jobs get in the DD department, often times being left with very random pieces, and last I knew our best set was simply a random mix up of different gear from MPNMs and Delve bosses where we got thrown a bone. When it comes to actual sets or powerful pieces of gear in general for light DDs we're left off completely, which often kills our ability to keep up. One fairly unique way to make us keep up and stand out would be more powerful Enspells that help us match up to other DDs. Two simple changes to Enspell IIs would make them viable and powerful enough to fulfill this role. It wouldn't make RDM overpowered in any sense, would make the elemental resistance reduction more useful as there wouldn't be a cost associated with it that often times doesn't seem worth it, and it would remove one more complaint people have about RDM. Speaking of which...


Sorry guys but you just don't know how to play RDM if Enspell I&II mechanics throw you off like that, same with Gain spells, if you don't know how each stat affects you then you don't know why it is such an advantage to be able to chose a stat to boost at will.

What you should be complaining about instead is how badly RDM spells scale with skill and how low the caps are set on them, also about how the merit spells should be scrolls instead with merits used to either enhance them directly or generally.

But the mechanics of spells are good, you just need to learn2play and to adapt to situations.There are many issues to complain about, and I admit this isn't one of the larger ones, but it's something that does need brought up. One need not be content with mediocrity simply because there is something even more mediocre to complain about in the same breath. I hate our merits too, but we've talked about that issue so much I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about other issues as well. All of that said, I must ask, how is the mechanic of Enspell IIs calculating our Enhancing Magic on hit rather than on cast "good"? It's a flaw I can't see as being defensible.

[Dale]

Let me start by saying I'm sorry that this post might be a bit long and from a while back. I took a break from the forums for a short time so I fell behind, that said there are some things I want to reply to so~ I hope you'll forgive me replying to old posts.

Not really. Assuming you have 5/5 Phalanx II both spells cap at -35 damage, the difference being that one can be cast on others while the other is self only. The second tier also scales in a way that makes it much more powerful than the original until you hit 300+ Enhancing Magic, at which point they even out. The upgrade II gets is the ability to cast on other players, the only real flaw with it is the lack of ability to use Accession with it, which isn't an issue since the original's potency is the same as the second. I admit all of this requires 5/5 merits, but that's how powerful the spell should be anyways, as with any merit spell.

There's a difference between saying that having something weakens a class, and saying that the something the class has is weaker than it should be, or that the something is weaker than another something that isn't able to be stacked with the original. Enspell IIs do make RDM a stronger job than it would be without them. That said, they're weaker than our original Enspells in most situations. If I'm in a situation I need magic accuracy enough to lose my DMG for the sake of my(-10?) elemental resist I'm likely using a staff for the additional magic accuracy anyways and won't hit anything with my Enspell to begin with. It's just not practical to use Enspell IIs in most situations, even single wielding they're almost always worse than the originals due to how the Enhancing Magic calculation works and our ease of stacking Double Attack thanks to Temper.

Changing the IIs to be a real upgrade, a real second tier, wouldn't in any way make us overpowered. It would only serve to make the spells more useful and at the same time make them more sensical. I can't for the life of me understand why Enhancing Magic should be calculated on hit when the originals weren't, I can think of no reason that this is necessary or defensible. That alone feels like more of a glitch than a feature, and yet it's never been addressed.

In either case, the last thing I want to say on this is that I'm a large advocate for RDMs meleeing. We're not exactly weak, but we are left behind by most other front line jobs quite easily. Even in our best possible gear I have a hard time keeping up with your average DDs thanks to our flaws. We have a lack of gear other jobs get in the DD department, often times being left with very random pieces, and last I knew our best set was simply a random mix up of different gear from MPNMs and Delve bosses where we got thrown a bone. When it comes to actual sets or powerful pieces of gear in general for light DDs we're left off completely, which often kills our ability to keep up. One fairly unique way to make us keep up and stand out would be more powerful Enspells that help us match up to other DDs. Two simple changes to Enspell IIs would make them viable and powerful enough to fulfill this role. It wouldn't make RDM overpowered in any sense, would make the elemental resistance reduction more useful as there wouldn't be a cost associated with it that often times doesn't seem worth it, and it would remove one more complaint people have about RDM. Speaking of which...

There are many issues to complain about, and I admit this isn't one of the larger ones, but it's something that does need brought up. One need not be content with mediocrity simply because there is something even more mediocre to complain about in the same breath. I hate our merits too, but we've talked about that issue so much I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about other issues as well. All of that said, I must ask, how is the mechanic of Enspell IIs calculating our Enhancing Magic on hit rather than on cast "good"? It's a flaw I can't see as being defensible.

I skimmed this and I'll just make a few comments.

Phalanx 2 is not a pure upgrade of phalanx 1. It just isn't. Yes you can merit it to make the spell more effective. And it might scale better at lower enhancing skill. I wouldn't know because mine is capped and was over 300 before I even leveled this job. But none of that changes what I said. It is a second tier spell that offers another way to use the spell rather just being a straight up pure upgrade. It was just an example I was giving to show that the en-spells were not the only spells that behaved that way.

And Red Mage should not be equal in melee to other front line melee jobs. That would be silly and unbalanced if they were. Some of the Red Mages on this forum are expecting too much, and being unreasonable in their requests. And complaining about our en spells 2 and Gain spells and saying as a result SE has somehow screwed this job seems like exaggerated nitpicking to me.

So I think Raydeus is right about this. If this job does have any serious problems, the ones you and the OP are talking about aren't them. And I think you and the OP might want to think about rolling an actual front line melee character if that's the kind of job you want to be. Perhaps a Monk or a Samurai. Because rolling a support class and being discontent you can't do as much damage as a Damage Dealing class doesn't make any sense to me and this is likely not to change. Because SE is never going to give Red Mage some super En Spell that puts us on par with other jobs in terms of melee damage.

[Zekander]

/sigh

I never said RDM should be equal to other frontline jobs. I have MNK leveled to 99, it's ok, I don't think it's as enjoyable to play as RDM though. I've heard that RDM has other problems besides the one I posted, but I haven't encountered those yet in the process of leveling it. I have encountered this one, and it annoys me that such a badly designed spell is in the RDM spell list.

Perhaps I was a bit too strong with my language, I did not mean that SE screwed over the job in general. But you have to agree that with this particular spell they went out of their way to make it less useful then it could have been. They intentionally force you to melee in enhancing magic gear to increase it's damage. They intentionally made the elemental relationships unfavorable. And they intentionally left out off hand and double attacks, this at a time when the cap was still 75 and joyuse was RDMs best weapon.

[Demonjustin]

Phalanx 2 is not a pure upgrade of phalanx 1. It just isn't. Yes you can merit it to make the spell more effective. And it might scale better at lower enhancing skill. I wouldn't know because mine is capped and was over 300 before I even leveled this job. But none of that changes what I said. It is a second tier spell that offers another way to use the spell rather just being a straight up pure upgrade. It was just an example I was giving to show that the en-spells were not the only spells that behaved that way.But it was a flawed example. As I stated, Phalanx II is the exact same at 5/5 as the original spell except for it's ability to be cast on other players. This is an upgrade for that reason, a pure one, as it has no drawbacks that are forced upon it in return for that benefit. If at 5/5 it only hit -30 while the original spell hit -35 then ok, point taken, it's not a pure upgrade, but this simply isn't the case.


And Red Mage should not be equal in melee to other front line melee jobs. That would be silly and unbalanced if they were. Some of the Red Mages on this forum are expecting too much, and being unreasonable in their requests. And complaining about our en spells 2 and Gain spells and saying as a result SE has somehow screwed this job seems like exaggerated nitpicking to me.I believe you misunderstood my thoughts on our melee. I in no way shape or form expect nor want RDM's melee to be comparable to a MNK or SAM. I just want to be able to do enough damage so that in equal leveled gear I can perform at, say, 80% of their DMG output. The best possible geared RDM vs the best possible SAM shouldn't result in the RDM being behind by more than 20% in my opinion. What I was trying to point out is that our largest issue when it comes to melee is our gear, we're left out of most light DD gear. One way to supplement this issue would be to make our Enspell IIs more powerful. It would allow us to have a more solidified role on the front lines via our elemental damage per hit and thus make us a bit more unique than your normal DD. This is far from a super Enspell, I'm not talking about giving us Rainemard level Enspells here. I don't think capping at 60 damage a hit on each swing and lowering a mobs resistance without sacrifice is overpowered, how do you come to the conclusion it is?


So I think Raydeus is right about this. If this job does have any serious problems, the ones you and the OP are talking about aren't them. And I think you and the OP might want to think about rolling an actual front line melee character if that's the kind of job you want to be. Perhaps a Monk or a Samurai. Because rolling a support class and being discontent you can't do as much damage as a Damage Dealing class doesn't make any sense to me and this is likely not to change. Because SE is never going to give Red Mage some super En Spell that puts us on par with other jobs in terms of melee damage.There are many issues. One should not simply ignore the smaller issues simply because they're smaller. In the end all issues need be presented, the larger ones are simply the ones you hit with the hammer repeatedly rather than once and leaving them to rest. Threads that bring up Enspells are far and few between, they only really involve RDM, and that's about the extent of it. Compare that to the number of threads that on a monthly basis are either created or posted in that mention merits. I agree, we have larger issues than this, but that fact alone doesn't mean we should ignore this in favor of those more important issues which are already being discussed.

[Dale]

/sigh

I never said RDM should be equal to other frontline jobs. I have MNK leveled to 99, it's ok, I don't think it's as enjoyable to play as RDM though. I've heard that RDM has other problems besides the one I posted, but I haven't encountered those yet in the process of leveling it. I have encountered this one, and it annoys me that such a badly designed spell is in the RDM spell list.

Perhaps I was a bit too strong with my language, I did not mean that SE screwed over the job in general. But you have to agree that with this particular spell they went out of their way to make it less useful then it could have been. They intentionally force you to melee in enhancing magic gear to increase it's damage. They intentionally made the elemental relationships unfavorable. And they intentionally left out off hand and double attacks, this at a time when the cap was still 75 and joyuse was RDMs best weapon.

That post wasn't directly aimed at you. It was aimed at the other guy. Demonjustin.

And I read his post again and that seemed to be his beef to me. Here is his words again in bold:

We're not exactly weak, but we are left behind by most other front line jobs quite easily. Even in our best possible gear I have a hard time keeping up with your average DDs thanks to our flaws. We have a lack of gear other jobs get in the DD department, often times being left with very random pieces, and last I knew our best set was simply a random mix up of different gear from MPNMs and Delve bosses where we got thrown a bone.

So if he's not complaining about being on par with other front line jobs what is it he's are upset about?

I also think Red Mages have plenty of melee gear available to them. They have Haste 2 and temper (a very potent combination). So I would just get your Red Mage to 99. Buy the spark gear. Get the scimitar and some double attack/accuracy gear before you judge them. Because they melee quite well, even against high level monsters and I think you are going to like it. But if someone wants to do the most melee damage, they should roll something like a Samurai or Monk. Not a support mage class.

[Dale]

But it was a flawed example. As I stated, Phalanx II is the exact same at 5/5 as the original spell except for it's ability to be cast on other players. This is an upgrade for that reason, a pure one, as it has no drawbacks that are forced upon it in return for that benefit. If at 5/5 it only hit -30 while the original spell hit -35 then ok, point taken, it's not a pure upgrade, but this simply isn't the case.
.

Really? Some may consider the fact it requires merits a drawback. That's points you could have put elsewhere. And you even pointed out another possible drawback in your previous post when you said it couldn't be used with accession.

So it wasn't a flawed example. At least not to me. But you can think it was flawed if you want. That is your right :) But I was and still am every comfortable making the comparison.

I use phalanx 1 on my Red Mage all the time. So Phalanx II certainly wasn't a pure upgrade for me at least.

[Demonjustin]

That post wasn't directly aimed at you. It was aimed at the other guy. Demonjustin.

And I read his post again and that seemed to be his beef to me. Here is his words again in bold:

We're not exactly weak, but we are left behind by most other front line jobs quite easily. Even in our best possible gear I have a hard time keeping up with your average DDs thanks to our flaws. We have a lack of gear other jobs get in the DD department, often times being left with very random pieces, and last I knew our best set was simply a random mix up of different gear from MPNMs and Delve bosses where we got thrown a bone.

So if he's not complaining about being on par with other front line jobs what is it he's are upset about?The size of the gap between them. I've no issue with doing less than a DD, that's balance and it's an obvious necessity. What I do have a problem with is the size of the gap that's had in the name of balance.


I also think Red Mages have plenty of melee gear available to them. They have Haste 2 and temper (a very potent combination). So I would just get your Red Mage to 99. Buy the spark gear. Get the scimitar and some double attack/accuracy gear before you judge them. Because they melee quite well, even against high level monsters and I think you are going to like it. But if someone wants to do the most melee damage, they should roll something like a Samurai or Monk. Not a support mage class.I'm confident I more than adequately (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Demonjustin#item-sets) meet the guidelines to speak on the subject. I know this account shows a RDM which lacks even a single job at 99, but that's because it's a second character I made simply to post on this forum.* That said, simply looking at my real character I'm sure you'll realise I'm far from inexperienced when it comes to RDM and how it functions. I've been a strong advocate for RDM's meleeing for the last 3 years or so and have practiced what I preached all the while.

My main issue with RDMs meleeing is the lack of sets of gear for meleeing, it has been for quite some time. We get pieces of gear like the hands from Yorcia WK/DB or the great armor from the Ark Angel and other MPNM fights, but none are part of a set. Sets matter because they're often times built with specific stats for meleeing and since they're centered around that goal are stacked with stats that make them excel at it. RDM on the other hand with the exception of the Sparks gear has been put on no DD set since the release of item levels. We get individual pieces which are great, but they lack many things that hurt our power quite a bit overall. One large example would be the lack of Double/Triple Attack on most of our best gear currently, an issue that isn't suffered by any other front line job thanks to Skirmish and Delve gear sets supplying a high amount of these from Augments and base stats. Just to be clear, I don't believe we should be on every piece of gear nor have access to everything in terms of damage that a MNK or SAM does, but I do think the balance needs adjusted.

RDM is one of few jobs that requires a specific subjob to perform well on the front lines in damage, we need /NIN to do well and that alone hits our damage pretty hard thanks to the Double Attack and Attack/Accuracy sacrifices we're making. Add in the fact we're not able to boost our Attack naturally and have no WSs that provide an Attack boost and you begin to see where we fall short. Adding us to gear sets like those in Delve and Skirmish wouldn't make us powerful enough to overrun MNKs or SAMs, not even close, but it would help close the large gap we currently face by addressing some of our issues in a simple manner. Changing Enspell IIs, to be more on topic with this thread, is another method of changing that gap to be smaller. It's not something that will change RDM's role nor will it in conjunction with additional gear make RDM overpowered, but it's something that would help the job both in support and offense which is a good thing no matter how you look at it.



*




All of this said, I would like to apologize Zekander. I don't mean to take this thread down a different path than originally intended, I'm not trying to argue so much about gear specifically, and I sadly fear this may result in the thread drifting from the topic. I am simply bringing it up as I feel it strengthens my point on the actual topic at hand. That said, if you'd rather me leave it be I'll stop posting so that to be sure the thread isn't derailed, as I understand the frustration that can be had from such things.

[Dale]

The size of the gap between them. I've no issue with doing less than a DD, that's balance and it's an obvious necessity. What I do have a problem with is the size of the gap that's had in the name of balance.

I'm confident I more than adequately (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Demonjustin#item-sets) meet the guidelines to speak on the subject. I know this account shows a RDM which lacks even a single job at 99, but that's because it's a second character I made simply to post on this forum.* That said, simply looking at my real character I'm sure you'll realise I'm far from inexperienced when it comes to RDM and how it functions. I've been a strong advocate for RDM's meleeing for the last 3 years or so and have practiced what I preached all the while.

My main issue with RDMs meleeing is the lack of sets of gear for meleeing, it has been for quite some time. We get pieces of gear like the hands from Yorcia WK/DB or the great armor from the Ark Angel and other MPNM fights, but none are part of a set. Sets matter because they're often times built with specific stats for meleeing and since they're centered around that goal are stacked with stats that make them excel at it. RDM on the other hand with the exception of the Sparks gear has been put on no DD set since the release of item levels. We get individual pieces which are great, but they lack many things that hurt our power quite a bit overall. One large example would be the lack of Double/Triple Attack on most of our best gear currently, an issue that isn't suffered by any other front line job thanks to Skirmish and Delve gear sets supplying a high amount of these from Augments and base stats. Just to be clear, I don't believe we should be on every piece of gear nor have access to everything in terms of damage that a MNK or SAM does, but I do think the balance needs adjusted.

RDM is one of few jobs that requires a specific subjob to perform well on the front lines in damage, we need /NIN to do well and that alone hits our damage pretty hard thanks to the Double Attack and Attack/Accuracy sacrifices we're making. Add in the fact we're not able to boost our Attack naturally and have no WSs that provide an Attack boost and you begin to see where we fall short. Adding us to gear sets like those in Delve and Skirmish wouldn't make us powerful enough to overrun MNKs or SAMs, not even close, but it would help close the large gap we currently face by addressing some of our issues in a simple manner. Changing Enspell IIs, to be more on topic with this thread, is another method of changing that gap to be smaller. It's not something that will change RDM's role nor will it in conjunction with additional gear make RDM overpowered, but it's something that would help the job both in support and offense which is a good thing no matter how you look at it.



*




All of this said, I would like to apologize Zekander. I don't mean to take this thread down a different path than originally intended, I'm not trying to argue so much about gear specifically, and I sadly fear this may result in the thread drifting from the topic. I am simply bringing it up as I feel it strengthens my point on the actual topic at hand. That said, if you'd rather me leave it be I'll stop posting so that to be sure the thread isn't derailed, as I understand the frustration that can be had from such things.

That's fine. But as I said, we just disagree because I believe Red Mages (considering they are a support mage class) melee very well. Haste 2 + Temper with some double attack/accuracy gear coupled with a high damage sword (on top of all our other enhancements) is very effective. This job hacks through mobs with ease - and can even chain the Very/Incredibly tough monsters in Adoulin with its melee attack. And that's while wearing the wayfarer set I may add, which isn't even a melee set. So I don't think there is any real issue with this class in terms of melee and don't know what else someone could reasonably want. The developers have been very generous with this job lately and if you think we are weak now you should have played this job years ago when our melee ability actually did suck.

And I never said you didn't meet the guidelines to speak about this. You can talk about what ever you want. I'm not the boss of you. Let me also point out that post you are quoting and taking offense to wasn't directed at you. It was to the other Red Mage.

But the fact you think the Red Mage is so weak in melee does lead me to question your experience with it at the current high levels (but I could be wrong) and you may want to try doing what I asked that other Red Mage to do if you haven't already. You might just be impressed with the results. Because this class knows how to melee trust me. But it's never going to equal an actual melee job. Nor should it in my opinion. Because Red Mages are not suppose to be samurais with healing/enhancing/nuking/enfeebling magic. That would be over-powered.

[Protey]

all this talk about RDM melee ability I thought I would share this from SE for the upcoming update:

Thief
Dagger skill will be raised from A to A+.
Beastmaster
Axe skill will be raised from A to A+.
Ninja
Katana skill will be raised from A to A+.
Blue Mage
Sword skill will be raised from A to A+.
Puppetmaster
Hand-to-hand skill will be raised from B+ to A+.
Dancer
Dagger skill will be raised from B+ to A+.

RDM?? nowhere in sight.

BLU is a hybrid sword wielder like RDM.... why them and not us? I don't know why SE feels the need to buff BLU further, they are OP already.


and back to the original point of this thread: I agree that enspell 2s need to be revamped.

[Dale]

BLU is a hybrid sword wielder like RDM.... why them and not us? I don't know why SE feels the need to buff BLU further, they are OP already.


and back to the original point of this thread: I agree that enspell 2s need to be revamped.

.

I'm not that familiar with Blue Mage (tried to level it but lost interest and none of my friends play it regularly) so I'll debate your post in this way:

Can Blue Mage phalanx and refresh II party members with their blue magic? If not, then that might be your answer. If they can, then I think you make a good point.

And I have no beef with people saying Enspell IIs need to be revamped. My issue is when people call them useless. Because they aren't. At least not in my opinion. Because I use them and like them.

All that being said though, I do agree with you that there isn't a need to raise Blue Mage sword skill to an A+. It should stay at A. No Mage should have the highest rank available in a melee weapon in my opinion.

[mattkoko]

I'm not that familiar with Blue Mage (tried to level it but lost interest and none of my friends play it regularly) so I'll debate your post in this way:

Can Blue Mage phalanx and refresh II party members with their blue magic? If not, then that might be your answer. If they can, then I think you make a good point.

And I have no beef with people saying Enspell IIs need to be revamped. My issue is when people call them useless. Because they aren't. At least not in my opinion. Because I use them and like them.

All that being said though, I do agree with you that there isn't a need to raise Blue Mage sword skill to an A+. It should stay at A. No Mage should have the highest rank available in a melee weapon in my opinion.

This is correct. Blu has a lot of good support spells but most (aside from diamondhide) can be uses on other party members. We get refresh and haste but we can only use it on ourselves. We also cannot have all spells set at once, where rdm has access to their entire spell pool. None of our traits are native. They all depend on our spell line up. Bottom line is rdm and blu have many of differences. Although they are both hybrids mages, they have many differences within the jobs themselves as far as what they are able to do and how they do it. Blu also relies on skillchains for dmg out put. Though I respect your opinion that their skill should remain at A, I have to disagree. Blu is in the frontline much more then rdm, and blu can use all the acc they can get to build tp for skillchains. Though if SE did ever decide to raise rdm's sword skills to A+, I would not be against it in the slightest. I just don't think it would be as useful to rdm as it is for blu.

[Dale]

This is correct. Blu has a lot of good support spells but most (aside from diamondhide) can be uses on other party members. We get refresh and haste but we can only use it on ourselves. We also cannot have all spells set at once, where rdm has access to their entire spell pool. None of our traits are native. They all depend on our spell line up. Bottom line is rdm and blu have many of differences. Although they are both hybrids mages, they have many differences within the jobs themselves as far as what they are able to do and how they do it. Blu also relies on skillchains for dmg out put. Though I respect your opinion that their skill should remain at A, I have to disagree. Blu is in the frontline much more then rdm, and blu can use all the acc they can get to build tp for skillchains. Though if SE did ever decide to raise rdm's sword skills to A+, I would not be against it in the slightest. I just don't think it would be as useful to rdm as it is for blu.

It's more philosophical from my standpoint. Because I just think the A+ ranks should be reserved for the straight up melee classes rather than Mages. I do think Blue Mages should have a higher sword skill than Red Mages though, especially now that you have confirmed they cannot cast most of their support spells on other party members.

[Zekander]

That is not entirely true, Blue Mages have a job ability that, much like accession, turns their support spell into an aoe. I do know however, that this JA is on a very long timer, 10 minutes iirc, and accept that as a valid point in the differences between RDM and BLU. Nonetheless I think leaving RDM out of skill changes, is very very very offensive to the RDM community who have been screaming about it almost since day 1. I don't recall ever hearing that BLUs complaining about their sword rank, mostly it was about their spells and the restrictions placed on them. Now I don't believe RDM should get an A+ in sword either, an A- would be more then sufficient. Also look at some of the other jobs in that list, THF and NIN yeah they should get buffed, but PUP and BST? They already have considerable damage and utility potential in their pets, they really have no need to have their skills buffed at all, I would consider them in the same position as RDM, It's not as though this increase will get them invited to endgame content.

Few things SE has done over the years have upset me as much as this.

[Demonjustin]

One of RDM's issues comes in the form of accuracy, a skill buff would help mitigate that issue directly. I wouldn't say put us at A+, no, but B+ or A would be just fine in my opinion. Another thing that should be mentioned is the fact that they're addressing physical skills and yet our Shield Skill is still at F rank. I know I've said it multiple times before, but honestly F rank shield skill means we're floored on block rate on basically anything we'd ever fight. Even in pure Shield Skill gear I think we barely hit around 440ish, ignoring the fact that said gear would be absolutely terrible for general use that's still only putting us at around the same skill as a level 99 naked PLD...

[Selindrile]

BLU is a hybrid sword wielder like RDM.... why them and not us? I don't know why SE feels the need to buff BLU further, they are OP already.


Blu is a hybrid with a focus on DPS, Rdm is a hybrid with a focus on support, you actually see shouts for Rdms, not Blus. Blu is not OP.

That said, I have 0 qualms about increasing Rdms melee ability I absolutely think every job should have an A+ in it's core skills, and Sword is definitely one for Rdm. And I wish they'd buff Enspell II's, as well, they're rather silly as they are.

I just took objection to calling Blu OP, though we've admittedly gotten a lot of Dev love lately (which I am very grateful for), we're still behind the leading jobs that share our role in a party, though we are admittedly now above the average, and many jobs could use more buffs than we could now, but we're still no Sam or Mnk or Rng, or even really Thf (though obviously not for DD reasons) in the "DD role" in terms of desirability, but we're now ahead or tied with most of the remaining DDs.

The only reason Rdms are shouted for more than Blus, honestly, is because the support role in general is rarer than DD, they're still behind Brd and Whm, in terms of support desirability.

[Raydeus]

Guys, what are you all talking about?

I was very happy to hear RDM will finally get an upgrade in Sword, Dagger and Enhancing skill rating and that Enhancing spells will be adjusted so they scale much better at higher skill levels and with a much higher cap on their effects as well. :D


...eh? What do you mean what did I smoke? I'm sure that's that what the flying Quadav fairy told me when my party of merry mandragoras and me were traveling on the yellow cermet road to reach the Wizard of Zilart, so I could warp back home.

Just ask my pet Shan-toto, she was there too! :rolleyes:

[Dale]

One of RDM's issues comes in the form of accuracy, a skill buff would help mitigate that issue directly. I wouldn't say put us at A+, no, but B+ or A would be just fine in my opinion. Another thing that should be mentioned is the fact that they're addressing physical skills and yet our Shield Skill is still at F rank. I know I've said it multiple times before, but honestly F rank shield skill means we're floored on block rate on basically anything we'd ever fight. Even in pure Shield Skill gear I think we barely hit around 440ish, ignoring the fact that said gear would be absolutely terrible for general use that's still only putting us at around the same skill as a level 99 naked PLD...

Didn't you say earlier you easily cut though very/incredibly toughs with your Red Mage melee without using distract or any accuracy support trusts? Now suddenly you are saying we have accuracy issues? I have a hard time understanding your complaints.

Anyway: I do half way agree with you here (though your previous posts seem to conflict with your current one) that Red Mages have a disadvantage in terms of accuracy when compared to melee jobs due to our lower rank. Where we disagree is you see this as a problem and I don't really. Because in the end this job is - a support mage- and not a melee class. And if you gear appropriately and make the needed sacrifices it is possible to overcome our accuracy issues. So it's a problem you can easily solve.

It appears you think we should have great shield skill too now as well. It seems you want everything. But we already have excellent defense potential so giving us a high shield skill would make us too powerful. That is an advantage Paladins have and need to keep.

To be honest, the greatest impediment to Red Mage melee is not our accuracy. It's not our En Spells II. Nor is it our lower rank in sword. It is simply put that our role in combat is that of support - and that is where we are expected to perform to our fullest and at times melee can complicate our ability to do this. So how well we can melee depends almost entirely on the situation and how well balanced our current group is.

Part of what makes a Red Mage so powerful is it can adapt to pitch-hit for many different roles in a variety of different situations. And from what I have seen, they are better at this than any other job.

[Protey]

Didn't you say earlier you easily cut though very/incredibly toughs with your Red Mage melee without using distract or any accuracy support trusts? Now suddenly you are saying we have accuracy issues? I have a hard time understanding your complaints.

Anyway: I do half way agree with you here (though your previous posts seem to conflict with your current one) that Red Mages have a disadvantage in terms of accuracy when compared to melee jobs due to our lower rank. Where we disagree is you see this as a problem and I don't really. Because in the end this job is - a support mage- and not a melee class. And if you gear appropriately and make the needed sacrifices it is possible to overcome our accuracy issues. So it's a problem you can easily solve.

It appears you think we should have great shield skill too now as well. It seems you want everything. But we already have excellent defense potential so giving us a high shield skill would make us too powerful. That is an advantage Paladins have and need to keep.

To be honest, the greatest impediment to Red Mage melee is not our accuracy. It's not our En Spells II. Nor is it our lower rank in sword. It is simply put that our role in combat is that of support - and that is where we are expected to perform to our fullest and at times melee can complicate our ability to do this. So how well we can melee depends almost entirely on the situation and how well balanced our current group is.

Part of what makes a Red Mage so powerful is it can adapt to pitch-hit for many different roles in a variety of different situations. And from what I have seen, they are better at this than any other job.

you agreed with what I said in the other thread that RDM is a jack-of-all-trades, but then you go and say this. RDM is NOT just a support class. It is ALL classes. We can melee, tank, cure, enhance, enfeeble.... all at the same time!

[Dale]

you agreed with what I said in the other thread that RDM is a jack-of-all-trades, but then you go and say this. RDM is NOT just a support class. It is ALL classes. We can melee, tank, cure, enhance, enfeeble.... all at the same time!

That's because I think you can describe Red Mage as a support class and still recognize it as a jack of all trades. To me these two descriptions don't conflict. Because in many ways that's how a Red Mage offers support to their group, by applying their jack of all trades potential and strengthening the group where it matters most.

So I don't think we disagree. I just use the term support more broadly than you would.

But in any case, my point in the post you quoted was that because of the Red Mage's versatility I feel a lower rank in sword is justified.

[Zekander]

Actually it was me saying I was able to easily melee VT/IT mob, not Demonjustin. And these are mobs in the old areas, who's stats are significantly lower then mobs of the same level in adoulin areas. Also I don't have a parser so I'm just eyeballing my accuracy, it's probably actually somewhere between 65-75% which it's pretty much not acceptable when meleeing in a party.

I personally don't think RDM should get a buff to their shield skill, mostly because I don't see RDM as a tank, though I know it has been used as such in the past but that was usually sub NIN making a shield pretty useless anyway.

As I mentioned in my other thread, I don't want a buff in sword skill solely to increase DD output. I want it because it would slightly change public opinion about what it is acceptable for RDM to do. Yes, RDM can already melee competently in most cases, but as long as their primary weapon skill is so low you will always be laughed at when you try to actually do so. That is what I most want to change.

[Dale]

Actually it was me saying I was able to easily melee VT/IT mob, not Demonjustin. And these are mobs in the old areas, who's stats are significantly lower then mobs of the same level in adoulin areas. Also I don't have a parser so I'm just eyeballing my accuracy, it's probably actually somewhere between 65-75% which it's pretty much not acceptable when meleeing in a party.

I personally don't think RDM should get a buff to their shield skill, mostly because I don't see RDM as a tank, though I know it has been used as such in the past but that was usually sub NIN making a shield pretty useless anyway.

As I mentioned in my other thread, I don't want a buff in sword skill solely to increase DD output. I want it because it would slightly change public opinion about what it is acceptable for RDM to do. Yes, RDM can already melee competently in most cases, but as long as their primary weapon skill is so low you will always be laughed at when you try to actually do so. That is what I most want to change.

Oh was it you? In any case, I melee even the high level monsters in Adoulin with my Red Mage. So it's not something unique to lower level content.

Also you need to find better people to play with Zekander if they laugh at you when you melee with your RDM. Cause they sound like unpleasant people. And SE shouldn't take try to appeal to such types when designing a class. Because close-minded people who think their way of doing things are the only way will always look down on other jobs or styles that do not fit into their own very limited definition of the right way to play. You just aren't going to change people like that no matter what rank you give Red Mages. And it's best just to ignore people like that anyway. You are the one paying your subscription not them. So if you want to melee I would.

Far as Red Mages as tank - even without ninja sub - Red Mage is capable of some pretty nice defense. I like to sub Blue Mage now and then for example. With phalanx+cocoon and some defense food, Red Mages can take hits nearly as good as my paladin, though minus the shield block. But seeing as Paladin is suppose to be the best job in the game at physical defense, I see nothing wrong with that. And neither do you. So on this at least, we agree.

[Demonjustin]

Stuff.Reply to stuff.I posted my reply to you in this thread here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/44559-General-complaint-thread?p=527159&viewfull=1#post527159) for the sake of sparing this thread the continued off topic discussion, I hope you'll join me there. :D

[Protey]

Actually it was me saying I was able to easily melee VT/IT mob, not Demonjustin. And these are mobs in the old areas, who's stats are significantly lower then mobs of the same level in adoulin areas. Also I don't have a parser so I'm just eyeballing my accuracy, it's probably actually somewhere between 65-75% which it's pretty much not acceptable when meleeing in a party.

I personally don't think RDM should get a buff to their shield skill, mostly because I don't see RDM as a tank, though I know it has been used as such in the past but that was usually sub NIN making a shield pretty useless anyway.

As I mentioned in my other thread, I don't want a buff in sword skill solely to increase DD output. I want it because it would slightly change public opinion about what it is acceptable for RDM to do. Yes, RDM can already melee competently in most cases, but as long as their primary weapon skill is so low you will always be laughed at when you try to actually do so. That is what I most want to change.

even with /nin, Beatific Shield +1 is great for tanking. why? AoE stuff.

as for accuracy: even on Ircinraq I have capped accuracy as long as I am getting the same buffs as the other DDs (which I insist on getting; give me mp songs/rolls and I will make your life miserable). Mind you my accuracy set is the best possible there is, but even if other RDM don't have that perfect acc+ set, they can still have a decent hit rate on 99.99% of mobs.

So does this mean I think RDM shouldn't get a boost in sword/dagger skill? No. But, I think it should be a minor upgrade, either B+ or A-