whats going to happen to PLD [Archive]

rog

04-01-2011, 09:28 PM

Abyssea is over now, PLD will become useful again (as much as it ever was) on the newer stuff.Not really, since it was never very useful outside abyssea either.

native provoke or one more emnity gainning ja is not tomuch to ask for hnm might actualy help in pulling higher chains of mobs can only do so much now i havent tried pld in aby its low now only 75 and no homan pants lolNo. Pld, along with every single job in the game, can hold hate just fine, and because hate caps so damn low, can't possibly hold hate better than they already do.

Neisan_Quetz

04-01-2011, 09:29 PM

EDIT: beaten by Rog.

On topic: Provoke is not the answer, it is never the answer. Stop thinking Pld's problem is native provoke. Heck the job who learns provoke doesn't even use it unless enmity is reset, it's just that unnecessary.

Runespider

04-01-2011, 09:39 PM

Not really, since it was never very useful outside abyssea either.

At 75 when we still did all these events we used PLD or nin/drk to main tank many things, Odin, DI, Tia..pretty much everything. This applied to almost every other shell on my server too, you could do them all other ways but the vast majority still used pld or nin/drk to tank stuff.

rog

04-01-2011, 09:49 PM

That doesn't make it a useful job.

Dazusu

04-01-2011, 09:57 PM

native provoke or one more emnity gainning ja

Neither of these will help a Paladin keep hate. Neither of these will keep a monster off a DD.

The only way Paladin is going to tank again is if the game mechanics are drastically revised (ie, PDT caps at 25% for all jobs other than Paladin, and all mobs spam moves that remove shadows). Either this, or let Paladins do damage on par with real DDs (ala, WoW). Seeing as we're heading down that road anyway, why not?

Paladin was only ever usful for HNM like Tiamat, and the early days of Dark Ixion, etc anyway (even then a RDM/NIN with the correct gear and knowledge could do it better). Else a DD could do it just aswell with some PDT/MDT gear.

All in the mechanics.

rog

04-01-2011, 09:58 PM

Neither of these will help a Paladin keep hate. Neither of these will keep a monster off a DD.

The only way Paladin is going to tank again is if the game mechanics are drastically revised (ie, PDT caps at 25% for all jobs other than Paladin, and all mobs spam moves that remove shadows). Either this, or let Paladins do damage on par with real DDs (ala, WoW). Seeing as we're heading down that road anyway, why not?Still wouldn't make pld a tank again.

Dazusu

04-01-2011, 10:05 PM

Still wouldn't make pld a tank again.

Oh, that's right. We need to get rid of Counter too.

Edit: Screw it, just give PLD Counter.

Runespider

04-01-2011, 10:08 PM

That doesn't make it a useful job.

It was one of the main tank jobs at 75 and that will probably return, doesn't matter what certain people thought of them being useful or not they were still used to tank everything by the vast majority of players, even in HNM shells.

rog

04-01-2011, 10:13 PM

It was one of the main tank jobs at 75 and that will probably return, doesn't matter what certain people thought of them being useful or not they were still used to tank everything by the vast majority of players, even in HNM shells.
The good players have always known pld was not a great choice. Abyssea has taught that to everyone. I don't see pld becoming popular again.

Runespider

04-01-2011, 10:18 PM

The good players have always known pld was not a great choice. Abyssea has taught that to everyone. I don't see pld becoming popular again.

Ultimately we will see what happens when they add new content, nobody really knows what they will do yet or how the players will fight it and Abyssea gives very little indication of how things will go in the future.

rog

04-01-2011, 10:21 PM

Yeah, i still don't see people going back to less efficient strategies after such widespread change to a more efficient one.

Andylynn

04-01-2011, 11:21 PM

Dazusu

04-01-2011, 11:27 PM

Yeah, i still don't see people going back to less efficient strategies after such widespread change to a more efficient one.

Except back then they were efficient. Throwing a MNK on Tiamat at Lv75 just wasn't viable, and the few times I seen Linkshells throw a MNK or a DRK on NMs like Tiamat, Cerberus or Khimaira; a wipe or a flail ensued. The problem is the content in the game got easier; the strength of characters versus the difficulty of content didn't scale. One accelerated, the other almost seemingly reversed.

Maybe I'll level sync to a 75 mule and go throw two monks on Khimaira and see what happens. Guarantee it wont be "efficient"

Cream_Soda

04-01-2011, 11:32 PM

ITT: Khim was hard to DD tank

rog

04-01-2011, 11:51 PM

Malamasala

04-01-2011, 11:54 PM

Hate caps need fixing for pld if it's ever going to become useful again. Either raise, or remove its cap, while giving it natural +emnity on its current, or new skills, and you MIGHT see some use if it can actually hold again.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Take 2005. Toss in a PLD and 17 BLMs spamming spells, and the PLD can't hold hate. Back then the strategy was "Hold back on nukes and take it slow!". Now it is "GO ALL OUT! KILL KILL KILL!" and then if hate bounces you say "PLD must suck, it can't handle this any longer!".

PLD is exactly as good as it ever was. It is the DD players who have just stopped caring because they can get high numbers and eat cure VI all day.

(Which incidentally means the most efficient way to make PLD popular is to nerf Cure VI so all WARs and MNKs die from taking too much damage)

Andylynn

04-02-2011, 12:02 AM

I have no idea what you are talking about. Take 2005. Toss in a PLD and 17 BLMs spamming spells, and the PLD can't hold hate. Back then the strategy was "Hold back on nukes and take it slow!". Now it is "GO ALL OUT! KILL KILL KILL!" and then if hate bounces you say "PLD must suck, it can't handle this any longer!".

PLD is exactly as good as it ever was. It is the DD players who have just stopped caring because they can get high numbers and eat cure VI all day.

(Which incidentally means the most efficient way to make PLD popular is to nerf Cure VI so all WARs and MNKs die from taking too much damage)

That's a perfect example of emnity capping, BLMs being irresponsible, and capping their hate by nuking willy nilly, causing everything they do to get aggro. If a DD did that on a significant Abyssea NM, they'd get their butt handed to them, and probably chewed out by the LS, no one plays like that unless they fail to grasp game concepts.

rog

04-02-2011, 12:03 AM

That's a perfect example of emnity capping, BLMs being irresponsible, and capping their hate by nuking willy nilly, causing everything they do to get aggro. If a DD did that on a significant Abyssea NM, they'd get their butt handed to them, and probably chewed out by the LS, no one plays like that unless they fail to grasp game concepts.
No they wouldn't. Pulling hate isn't a big deal, for any job, including blm.

Andylynn

04-02-2011, 12:05 AM

No they wouldn't. Pulling hate isn't a big deal, for any job, including blm.

If it wasn't then why on earth do tanks have DDs keep off of NMs? Some jobs cant take blows from things that matter, very rarely is zerging applicable outside of worthless, no strategy seal NMs.

rog

04-02-2011, 12:12 AM

Because idiots will be idiots. A properly geared blm will never die to anything because they pulled hate for a few seconds. Nor will any other job.

Anethia

04-02-2011, 12:27 AM

The root of the problem is that the games paradigm shifted. It shifted in favor of the damage dealer. It used to be that faster kills = faster exp, but the tank was still needed because of DD's inability to take damage and survive. DD's Go all out, take huge damage, Mage cure bombs DD, Mage dies, party wipes, everyone gets pissy. The paladin was the party safety net: they could cure 4 in lue of the Mage and get hate back. In abyssea that's not a concern anymore.

As result DD's could go all out, mages could cure bomb as much as they want; mean while paladins have had a more difficult time making the adjustment. We still use the established tanking models of pld/war and pld/nin. But let's not forget that paladin can actually wear the heaviest dd gear in the game. Rather than a focus on tanking let's focus on finding new job combos, or utilizing previously unused sub job abilities. I'm not saying that will solve the problems completely, but its something to look into. Pld/Sam, pld/blu, /dnc (DW:haste samba) /drk (used to be just situational maybe is more viable now). Idk, just throwing out ideas off the top of my head. My point is shift how you use the job to match the game, we can't always expect the game to shift to match the job.

Fiarlia

04-02-2011, 12:29 AM

Only reason DD's hang off is until procs are done, the TP moves most mobs have aren't bad or especially dangerous, it's just annoying as hell trying to proc when the mob is being super whoamg spammy. Once procs are done, they go all out, and BLMs can too.

Hell, BLM's can have more survivability than DD's in the short term. Mana Wall, Enmity Douse, Convert and a good PDT/MDT set makes taking hits on BLM now and then a non-issue. Hell, even sometimes a simple casting of Stun is enough time for the hate to bounce back to a DD. >.>

Dallas

04-02-2011, 12:49 AM

Give pld the ability to ignore "hate reset." Problem solved by making PLD a situational tank, for most situations.

rog

04-02-2011, 12:52 AM

Hell, BLM's can have more survivability than DD's in the short term. Mana Wall, Enmity Douse, Convert and a good PDT/MDT set makes taking hits on BLM now and then a non-issue. Hell, even sometimes a simple casting of Stun is enough time for the hate to bounce back to a DD. >.>
Being able to use pdt/mdt without crippling their damage gives them better survivability long term as well, even without mana wall/vert/enmity douse. Honestly, i'm not sure why people think mages are so fragile. DDs are the fragile ones.

Fiarlia

04-02-2011, 12:58 AM

Being able to use pdt/mdt without crippling their damage gives them better survivability long term as well, even without mana wall/vert/enmity douse. Honestly, i'm not sure why people think mages are so fragile. DDs are the fragile ones.

Good addendum, yo. Must've derped because it didn't cross my mind at all.

Sp1cyryan

04-02-2011, 01:00 AM

Seems like lately PLD has become, well useless in [A] zones can we get some love here SE?

Forever a LOLPLD

Fiarlia

04-02-2011, 01:03 AM

Somewhat of a tangent, but I need to get unlazy and farm some good augmented Dark Rings, at the moment my MDT is capped, but PDT is around 52 at night I think, and only 46 during the day... might be 51/45, not 100% sure off the top of my head, but I think that capping fulltime requires either getting good dark rings Dark Rings or buying various pieces of shit gear with low amounts of PDT on them, and my BLM already hovers at like 76/80 while keeping currently unused obi's in mah satchel. :(

Good Dark Rings would also let me cap PDT/MDT in far less slots. >.> Also, all jobs is hawt.

Scuro

04-02-2011, 01:06 AM

PLD is a job? Is that supposed to be coming out in the next expansion? /trollface

Dazusu

04-02-2011, 01:54 AM

Or you could use rdm to tank tia, since they need much less support. Or sam wrks too even.

I already stated the RDM argument. You know yourself we used RDM for pretty much everything back in the day.

rog

04-02-2011, 02:02 AM

I already stated the RDM argument. You know yourself we used RDM for pretty much everything back in the day.
Did you? Sorry, in class, not paying attention, skimming posts, etc. Either way, my point was pld is not an efficient job. Using one job to do nothing but tank is just silly. As i said, sam can tank tia fine, and if you want to be safe, you went with rdm, because in addition to being a far better tank, they also could perform other roles, such as enfeebling, support, etc.

blowfin

04-02-2011, 02:09 AM

PLD has a bunch of uses. Straight out of the box it's probably going to be junk like most everything else in in Abyssea, you need to invest some time in getting decent gear and atmas. AOE burn, Red and Blue procs, holding with super -DT, soloing a bunch of stuff, are all things a PLD is capable of in Abyss. Saying it's "useless" is largely sensationalist garbage.

Fiarlia

04-02-2011, 02:13 AM

blowfin

04-02-2011, 04:15 AM

Read the posts in the thread, everything you said was already countered.

Not really. Just because the bandwagon is filling up to breaking point doesn't mean it's going in the right direction. Try to think outside of the box every now and then. Personally I'd much rather see a thread giving people ideas on how to get the most out of their job rather than everyone bashing it, but that's just me. "Go level another job" isn't exactly the kind of advice a lot of people are looking for.

And just so we're clear. I don't even have PLD levelled, so i'm not trying to defend some sort of outrageous gear choice anything like that. But, I've seen people in my shell do some pretty impressive things with it recently. Skilled veterans with multiple, extremely well equipped jobs as a matter of fact.

rog

04-02-2011, 04:16 AM

No one said pld can't be impressive. The argument here is that other jobs are better.

Rambus

04-02-2011, 04:17 AM

Good lord...some of these "PLD is gimped!" threads remind me of WoW threads when Deathknight was first introduced and they got dethroned off their high-horses...everyone spammed the forums with"WTF?!" and "DK is OP!!!" and Blizzard nerfed them bigtime afterward....shortly after which i gave up on WoW an started to play FFXI full time which was nearly two years ago...lol.

Not the same, everyone that is PLD or NOT PLD knows there is a problem.

WoW is more " I am not in the lime lite i am gimp zomg"

Fiarlia

04-02-2011, 04:41 AM

No one said pld can't be impressive. The argument here is that other jobs are better.

Exactly this. I don't care if you enjoy PLD and your pt lets you bring it, by all means, have fun, it is a game after all. But don't kid yourself by trying to say that it's worth a damn in utility and usefulness when compared to other jobs.

I mean, I highly enjoy RDM, SCH and SMN, and love going on those jobs when I'm able (especially SCH, sooooooooooo much fun), but I know full well of the drawbacks, and I never try to convince anyone otherwise.

Alhanelem

04-02-2011, 04:49 AM

pld will be removed from the game.

Zumi

04-02-2011, 07:37 AM

All the complaining about Paladins reminds me of the WoW forums people nonstop complain how Blizzard is nerfing Paladins ect.

blowfin

04-02-2011, 08:24 AM

No one said pld can't be impressive. The argument here is that other jobs are better.

If you are operating on a best case, on paper scenario, then sure. PLD does seem to be able to cover several roles without the person changing jobs 5 times though, which is not really something you can evaluate with parsers or maths as to which is more useful. If you can instantly swap out all your gear, atmas, buffs, and warp to and from jeuno in the space of a millisecond then other jobs end up `better`, i`ll grant that. As far as overall utility goes though, depending on your group and situation of course, it seems PLD can be more useful than some of the jobs seen as optimal. At least from what I`ve seen, and the people in my shell know their stuff better than most.

Exactly this. I don't care if you enjoy PLD and your pt lets you bring it, by all means, have fun, it is a game after all. But don't kid yourself by trying to say that it's worth a damn in utility and usefulness when compared to other jobs.

It`s not a case of anyone letting people bring PLD. It`s a case of it being the best choice in the situation.

Having said that, PLD`s role as a general purpose `tank` is completely shot at the moment. But then again, so is the overall concept of a `tank`. But we all knew that anyway.

Sparthos

04-02-2011, 09:02 AM

Unless we get significantly difficult challenges where current DD-tank strategies wont work, PLD will always be the second-runner if not worse for battles. The reason why people used PLD often in the past was the fear that using a DD as a tank could wind in failure, leading to loss of a claim on an NM/HNM. Also, MP wasn't as abundant as it is now.

The job will need significant DD improvements (Chant was a start) in order to hold hate along with more tools for keeping the attention of a monster. Overall the game will need harder monsters to even justify some of the jobs currently in decline today - PLD included.

Tsukino_Kaji

04-02-2011, 09:35 AM

Seems like lately PLD has become, well useless in [A] zones can we get some love here SE?Complainer PLDs complaining. This was one of the things that nearly ruined the game earlier. PLD has already gotten everything they ever wanted and more. If you're PLDs are being over looked, maybe you need to re-evaluate your gear and play style. It's still the top tank for most everything.

Fiarlia

04-02-2011, 10:02 AM

It's still the top tank for most everything.

No it's not. >_>

Tsukino_Kaji

04-02-2011, 10:04 AM

No it's not. >_>Play PLD better then. lol

Greatguardian

04-02-2011, 10:14 AM

Play PLD better then. lol

Play better, then. Wasting a spot on a PLD is wasting a spot. If a Mnk, Nin, War, Thf, Pup, or Drg is dying to some NM or is unable to keep hate, look at the DD. Then look at the Whm. One of them is either gimp or a retard, probably both. All of those jobs do more damage than a PLD as well, and some offer significantly better proc'ing ability. I've already gone over why PLD Red procs are absolutely useless in another thread, but I don't mind repeating it if I have to.

Tsukino_Kaji

04-02-2011, 10:16 AM

Play better, then. Wasting a spot on a PLD is wasting a spot. If a Mnk, Nin, War, Thf, Pup, or Drg is dying to some NM or is unable to keep hate, look at the DD. Then look at the Whm. One of them is either gimp or a retard, probably both. All of those jobs do more damage than a PLD as well, and some offer significantly better proc'ing ability. I've already gone over why PLD Red procs are absolutely useless in another thread, but I don't mind repeating it if I have to.That all sounds more like personal bias then a game problem. I for one, especialy as a WHM, like having PLDs around.

Greatguardian

04-02-2011, 10:37 AM

That all sounds more like personal bias then a game problem. I for one, especialy as a WHM, like having PLDs around.

Why's that? They take more damage than Mnk and Nin, and they don't have the procs to be useful on their own merit. If a Mnk or a Nin is more annoying to cure for than a Pld, get better Mnks and Nins. Or get better at WHM. The problem could be either one, really. It's not even remotely difficult for a Whm to keep anything alive these days.

Sparthos

04-02-2011, 10:40 AM

Complainer PLDs complaining. This was one of the things that nearly ruined the game earlier. PLD has already gotten everything they ever wanted and more. If you're PLDs are being over looked, maybe you need to re-evaluate your gear and play style. It's still the top tank for most everything.

Troll better.

Explain how PLD is best at anything in todays current FFXI while you're at it too. You sound like those RNGs swearing up and down the class is still top tier.

Malamasala

04-02-2011, 08:08 PM

Well, explain how 20 jobs are best yourself. Clearly there is not room for everyone to be best, so not being best is not an argument.

Greatguardian

04-02-2011, 08:15 PM

Well, explain how 20 jobs are best yourself. Clearly there is not room for everyone to be best, so not being best is not an argument.

It's a fine argument when the post he's quoting specifically tries to state that PLD is "the top tank for most everything" =/

Taint

04-02-2011, 09:20 PM

Except back then they were efficient. Throwing a MNK on Tiamat at Lv75 just wasn't viable, and the few times I seen Linkshells throw a MNK or a DRK on NMs like Tiamat, Cerberus or Khimaira; a wipe or a flail ensued. The problem is the content in the game got easier; the strength of characters versus the difficulty of content didn't scale. One accelerated, the other almost seemingly reversed.

Maybe I'll level sync to a 75 mule and go throw two monks on Khimaira and see what happens. Guarantee it wont be "efficient"

Khim,Cerb and Tia were all easily DD tanked at 75. The only mob I never saw effectively DD tanked with DI, I'm sure it could have been but we used a PLD to flee and hold him. I had a infamous Galka PLD on my server Emo quit on Khim because he couldn't get hate off my DRK. PLD was useful when the gaming community didn't understand the game mechanics and for shells that didn't have good support players in the tank pty.

Krystal

04-03-2011, 12:44 AM

All the complaining about Paladins reminds me of the WoW forums people nonstop complain how Blizzard is nerfing Paladins ect.

i know right? this is a sure and sad sign that FFXI has turned into a WoW clone.....sad but true...:(

Runespider

04-03-2011, 12:54 AM

All the complaining about Paladins reminds me of the WoW forums people nonstop complain how Blizzard is nerfing Paladins ect.

Well to be fair, they didn't nerf PLD they just made them totally and utterly useless atm. I think some whining is in order if you are a pld main.

Sparthos

04-03-2011, 02:48 AM

Well, explain how 20 jobs are best yourself. Clearly there is not room for everyone to be best, so not being best is not an argument.

The job is designed as the premier 'tank' class yet can't even fulfill that role correctly. It's not even passable without the most elite gear in the game. With an Almace/Ochain, we can talk about PLD cause you know... they can actually do some damage and hold hate with those tools. Do tell how that isn't wholly broken.

Your heals are as inferior as RDM/SCH, flash is useless when DD clearly do more damage than the hate you grab with that, defensive JAs mean nothing when you have no hate and ultimately you're just as likely to be oneshotted as a DD tank.

Tsukino clearly called PLD "top-tank" which is trolling at best, blind ignorance at worst. The job is in the same boat as RNG - obsolete.

At least DRK/SAM/PUP etc can still do their functions, PLD and RNG sure can't.

Malamasala

04-03-2011, 07:42 AM

Do tell how that isn't wholly broken.

You have to accept your limits. PLD is a job that tanks through being at hate cap while others hold back and avoid reaching it. WHM is a job curing while it has MP. A PLD that can tank through hate cap of DD, is as dumb as a WHM that can cure without MP. Restrictions are there to make you think about how you play and add "difficulty".

PLD is fine. What is less fine is how well a WAR deals damage while surviving attacks with a WHM healer. WAR should be able to tank of course, being the second best armored job in the game, but it shouldn't be able to do as much damage while doing so. This is the balance issue. Not if PLD can hold hate, but how much damage melee can do and receive at once.

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to say that WAR is wholly broken. I'd even say WHM is wholly broken, even though most people are incapable of understanding how anything can be unbalanced if they don't do massive damage. But PLD? It is right where it should be. Just a shame it is there while other jobs are under or overpowered, making it LOOK bad.

Greatguardian

04-03-2011, 08:01 AM

If there's anything at all that's broken in that scenario it's the values of Monster Damage, Monster Attack and Player Defense. Paladin may have the highest defense armor around, but it won't mean jack squat if Defense as a stat is absolutely worthless. Any good MNK is going to be running around with 30-40 Defense, and will still take less damage than a Paladin with 600~ Defense.

It's obvious that Berserk and Defender were originally intended for Warrior to switch between Offensive and Defensive roles, however the implementation was shot when the values the original Dev team decided to assign for Player and Monster Attack/Def and their effects on one another made Defense practically worthless unless it's stacked in wholly unreasonable quantities.

Jobs aren't more broken now than before, they're right where they've been for a long time. Players have gotten better, and have, for the most part, dispelled the illusion that PLD+Def+Shield = Good tank. The only reason, and I mean only reason, that people were unable to properly implement DD tanks in 2006 was the fact that players geared their jobs differently. Players with Paladin defaulted to defensive gear. Players with DDs defaulted to Offensive gear. Players with Mages defaulted to Magic-Boosting gear. What few people realized back then was that every job type can be geared every way. DDs can wear Defensive gear and take very little damage. Paladins can wear Offensive gear and deal damage. Mages can wear both, and are easily the sturdiest jobs in the game (Contrary to the popular stereotype of frail mages).

FFXI's gear swapping system allows all of these jobs to instantly change their gear set depending on their situation. Melees can go balls out and smash monsters in Offensive gear, and then switch into PDT gear if they take damage or MDT gear if a high tier spell is being cast on them. Mages can idle in full Defensive gear, and then instantly swap to the appropriate Magic boosting gear every time they cast a spell without missing a beat.

When Monks and Warriors are able to deal twice as much damage as Paladins, all while being able to swap into the same Defensive gear and take the same amount of damage (Less, in Monk's case), of course Paladin is going to be shoved out of top tier. It doesn't bother me either. Paladin had years in the sun, and right now it's a mid-tier DD anyways. If anyone has a right to complain, look at RNG and DRK =/.

Andylynn

04-03-2011, 09:50 AM

If anyone has a right to complain, look at SAM and DRK =/.
Rng fits in the same category as drg, nasty DD but not useful for much else. SAM really hit it hard after Abyssea more that RNG, seeing as Fudo is laughable on high def targets, and lacks a crit skill to make up for that. Refulgent and Sidewinder are still beastly in their own right, and Jishnu's/Wildfire are amazing.

Vortex

04-03-2011, 09:58 AM

As far as the DD aspect of PLD goes, One with an Almace does very good damage and can hold thier own, i watched a PLD with one always doing 2-5k+ altho almace in an empyean weapon, it did help plds a great ton in keeping hate.

rog

04-03-2011, 10:34 AM

You sound like those RNGs swearing up and down the class is still top tier.
My rng could have kicked your ass at 75.

Go go 5-10 secs per slug shot.

Zumi

04-03-2011, 01:05 PM

Sparthos

04-03-2011, 01:12 PM

You have to accept your limits. PLD is a job that tanks through being at hate cap while others hold back and avoid reaching it. WHM is a job curing while it has MP. A PLD that can tank through hate cap of DD, is as dumb as a WHM that can cure without MP. Restrictions are there to make you think about how you play and add "difficulty".

Inside or outside Abyssea PLD is underwater in an age where DD actually know how to gear for DMG and use defensive tools. Hold back all you want, DD will reach the hate cap and they'll be tanking unless you have them kill themselves.

PLD is fine. What is less fine is how well a WAR deals damage while surviving attacks with a WHM healer. WAR should be able to tank of course, being the second best armored job in the game, but it shouldn't be able to do as much damage while doing so. This is the balance issue. Not if PLD can hold hate, but how much damage melee can do and receive at once.

DD: Improvements
Healing: Improvements
Support: Improvements
PLD: Stagnation

If stagnation is fine to you, so be it. Armor = tanking? This is the game where "cloth" classes like MNK, BLU and RDM have all seen their turns in the tanking seat.

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to say that WAR is wholly broken. I'd even say WHM is wholly broken, even though most people are incapable of understanding how anything can be unbalanced if they don't do massive damage. But PLD? It is right where it should be. Just a shame it is there while other jobs are under or overpowered, making it LOOK bad.

Nonsense. All of Abyssea is overpowered and yeah, some jobs have suffered from it but that isn't PLD.

PLD has problems inside AND outside Abyssea. The jobs fundamental purpose has always been threatened - be that from NINs, then NIN/DRKs, then RDM/NINs to todays DD.

People have gotten smarter investing in PDT/MDT sets and realizing that hey, you don't need a PLD for much and even if you HAD the PLD it'd make no difference as they'd probably be oneshotted too if said monster is that difficult.

Oshit buttons can be useful but when that's your only reason to bring a PLD, the jobs in trouble.

Greatguardian

04-03-2011, 01:13 PM

You can still be a PLD main get good gear atmas skill up your weapons for blues and red !!, PLD actually can use a lot of weapons for red, sword, great sword, staff, club, polearm. If you actually get good gear for PLD you will probably still outdamage 90% of the bad wars, mnks, nins ect. Will you be as good as someone that is good at their class probably not but still better then nothing.

PLD red procs are useless. If you're using a PLD to Red, you obviously don't have a WAR there. If you don't have a WAR there, you need at least a NIN and a DRK along with your PLD to cover all 13 WS (which is the whole point, isn't it?). Having to use a PLD and a DRK put together instead of just getting a single WAR is an absolute waste, especially when that one WAR would probably outdamage both the DRK and PLD combined.

Avarice

04-03-2011, 02:54 PM

That all sounds more like personal bias then a game problem. I for one, especialy as a WHM, like having PLDs around.

Be a better White Mage.

rog

04-03-2011, 04:41 PM

especially when that one WAR would probably outdamage both the DRK and PLD combined.
I dunno, it'd be close.

Malamasala

04-04-2011, 02:52 AM

PLD has problems inside AND outside Abyssea. The jobs fundamental purpose has always been threatened - be that from NINs, then NIN/DRKs, then RDM/NINs to todays DD.

You do know the game is supposed to have 3-5 jobs worthy of being called tanks, right? There is no exclusive PLD club that are the only tank jobs. If you want to blame anyone, it is the players for not using all tank jobs, but only the best ones. And expecting SE to every single update make the "not best" tank into "best tank" with an update is ridiculous.

And I'm still confused why so many PLDs complain but so few SMNs. PLDs are useless if other jobs steal hate, because they can't tank. SMNs are useless if people steal hate and tank, because it means being hate free and doing low damage has zero benefits over doing massive damage and just tanking.

My assumption is that all SMNs are so used to being overlooked and ignored that we just shrug it off. But you old "popular" PLDs who have been in the spot light as best tanks ever, are just yapping about it to get back. Really, you aren't worse off than SMNs have been the entire FFXI life span.

Until I've seen you live as PLD/WHM main healers 4 years, you'll get no sympathy from me. You are still far away from bottom of the barrel where I've lived for a decade.

Kingofgeeks

04-04-2011, 10:59 PM

i'd still rather a pld that can hold hate and take a hit a lot more than a job that gets slapped once their shadows are gone

Neisan_Quetz

04-05-2011, 01:04 AM

So only Pld has access to PDT/MDT sets, okay.

rog

04-05-2011, 03:37 AM

i'd still rather a pld that can hold hate and take a hit a lot more than a job that gets slapped once their shadows are gone
Shadows? What are those?

Fiarlia

04-05-2011, 03:43 AM

Shadows? What are those?

They're those weird things that mimic us and follow us around if we go outside when the sun is out. :(

They almost always aggro, and are quite hard to zone.

rog

04-05-2011, 06:50 AM

They're those weird things that mimic us and follow us around if we go outside when the sun is out. :(

They almost always aggro, and are quite hard to zone.
Never heard of it.

Fiarlia

04-05-2011, 07:22 AM

Never heard of it.

They're scary. :(

You can't bring friends either, because they'll each aggro one. >_<

Pet jobs' pets also aggro them too.

Zumi

04-05-2011, 07:32 AM

PLD red procs are useless. If you're using a PLD to Red, you obviously don't have a WAR there. If you don't have a WAR there, you need at least a NIN and a DRK along with your PLD to cover all 13 WS (which is the whole point, isn't it?). Having to use a PLD and a DRK put together instead of just getting a single WAR is an absolute waste, especially when that one WAR would probably outdamage both the DRK and PLD combined.

I already said before SE doesn't balance classes, its obvious that a Warrior has more damage potential then a Paladin. You can still play whatever job you want probably be better then 90-95% of the people if you work really hard on the gear. Some people don't want to reroll other classes and want to play what they have. FFXI is such a joke now that doesn't even matter what job you take. You can duo most anything with 1 melee and 1 whm. If PLD is the only job you really play who really cares.

Fiarlia

04-05-2011, 07:37 AM

I already said before SE doesn't balance classes, its obvious that a Warrior has more damage potential then a Paladin. You can still play whatever job you want probably be better then 90-95% of the people if you work really hard on the gear. Some people don't want to reroll other classes and want to play what they have. FFXI is such a joke now that doesn't even matter what job you take. You can duo most anything with 1 melee and 1 whm. If PLD is the only job you really play who really cares.

This I will agree with, especially the portion about being better than most of the population. Regardless of this though, it doesn't change how good PLD itself actually is. If the person were to level a different job they'd likely perform better. If they have no desire to level another job, however, they will be limited in abilities because PLD itself is limited, regardless of how good they may or may not be. But in this case, the person in question shouldn't try to advocate the usage of PLD in the larger population, at least as far as how useful or good the job is, since it's the person in the chair who is good, not the job.