[dev1231] Enemy HP should increase based on job repetition, not # of members

[Edyth]

When enemy HP increases for every member beyond 6 in endgame content, this mandates that every job in the party be absolutely vital, and it severely limits the jobs that can participate. It's not the players' fault that they have to behave in a close-minded way.

The solution (AKA the suggestion that you will never have any plans for) is to only increase enemy HP based on job repetition within an alliance. For example, an alliance with 18 different jobs should receive no HP increases in the monsters. This would create incentive for players to team up in large groups and to welcome a wide variety of jobs. However, a group of 6 that includes 2 monks would have the HP of all enemies increase slightly. A group of 18 that includes a ton of monks or rangers should have the enemies' HP increase a lot.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Shirai]

Sorry to be very blunt here, but that will not be the sollution to having certain jobs excluded from certain events.

Some jobs are simply more efficient than others at certain events and that's not going to change without making fundamental changes to the entire game mechanics.
And that is not going to happen.

[Dazusu]

I hate to say it, but even if the HP of an NM increased; I still wouldn't take a <insert undesirable job, like SMN, BST, DNC, et al> over additional MNK, RNG <insert other desirable job>.

Because chances are, those NMs would still be safer (and more efficient to kill) with my multiple <insert desirable job>.

[Arbalest]

When enemy HP increases for every member beyond 6 in endgame content, this mandates that every job in the party be absolutely vital, and it severely limits the jobs that can participate. It's not the players' fault that they have to behave in a close-minded way.

The solution (AKA the suggestion that you will never have any plans for) is to only increase enemy HP based on job repetition within an alliance. For example, an alliance with 18 different jobs should receive no HP increases in the monsters. This would create incentive for players to team up in large groups and to welcome a wide variety of jobs. However, a group of 6 that includes 2 monks would have the HP of all enemies increase slightly. A group of 18 that includes a ton of monks or rangers should have the enemies' HP increase a lot.

And that's all I have to say about that.

That's a silly idea.

Are we going to start punishing people for using normal, average setups? Lolwut.

[Draylo]

Well they are punishing people for even thinking of bringing more than 6 people. Why is that fair? Something has to be done, and its reward adjustments. What sense in anyone mind does it make to have 10+ players have a harder time and obtain the SAME drops as a group of 6 players who have it easier to clear?

[Balloon]

I agree with Draylo.

Content scaling only really works with reward scaling, otherwise it's penalizing yourself (Time/Difficulty) for no benefits. I think the concept of scaling is fantastic, and at the very least personal loot pools will mean that it's at least better than Delve, but delve has proven that it doesn't scale well. Many 6+ delves take longer.

So if it's reward scaling that needs to be done.. I see no problem with that. Not disallowing 6 man parties from entering, but incentivizing those who do go with more than 6.

[Selindrile]

How about the reverse, diversity increases droprates, each additional job brought increases the droprate in some way?

[Balloon]

Shoe horning jobs into content isn't the answer to job balance, it didn't really work with VW and it'd just be.. I'd probably still take a better chance at winning than take a SMN BST PUP etc.

[Selindrile]

Shoe horning jobs into content isn't the answer to job balance, it didn't really work with VW and it'd just be.. I'd probably still take a better chance at winning than take a SMN BST PUP etc.

It may not be the best answer, but it can and has been a more attainable answer than they've been willing to do otherwise, you say it didn't work with VW, who would've brought BLMs to this content without procs, they tried to diversify melees at least, usually brought at least one Blu, and a Rng back before they brought them anywhere else.

I do agree, job balance is assuredly the bigger issue at hand, but some gimmicks shoehorning jobs in might be the easier, shorter answer to some things, there's no reason we can't do something like this in the short term while still working on job balance in the long haul.

[Dazusu]

People may have taken BLM's to Voidwatch; but being a BLM at Voidwatch was hardly an exhilarating challenge (That goes for every other job too). Infact, the whole Voidwatch era is one most of us could have done without. Bad point of reference, really.

Voidwatch without the temporary items would have been much more interesting (inb4 well you didn't HAVE to use the temporary items Q_Q - and you'd be missing the point.)

They should just homogenize jobs. That's the real answer. Works for every other MMO.

[Selindrile]

This isn't from that long ago.


I was happy to be whatever the party wanted on VW, playing on the back-line didn't mean I got any less rewards, I'd much rather "back-line Blu" than "not-invited Blu".

But yeah, at the end of the day, I think most people just want to be able to participate in these events, even if they might not get to do it the way they want.


This. All of this. Would rather be invited on BLU to proc than not invited on BLU at all. It meant I could actually do the current endgame, on one of my favourite jobs. Versus now, when I don't get invited at all


I totally get what you're saying and I agree as I said, I didn't mind being a proc-blu to VW, sometimes I prefer it because I can just idle away in the background.

(Quotes shortened for readability, can click the links to read the originals with context.)

Also I liked VW, glowing equipment with great stats was awesome even if the content was super short and spammy.

But homogenizing the jobs like other MMOs sounds just terrible to me... I love that they are so different, I'd rather sacrifice balance (and we have) to keep them different, but that's not to say we shouldn't try to balance them as much as we can, without losing that uniqueness.

[Balloon]

I don't agree with job homogenization*, but I feel if you're invited because of some gimmick.. or because in this case you'd increase drop rates.. That's like putting a bandage over a infected gangrenous wound. A temporary fix to a much deeper problem. I could have probably come up with a better metaphor.

There's 2 things Square can do at this point, just come out and say they don't want certain jobs doing certain content, which is the case, or address some of the finer issues with job balance. It's not fair to inhibit other people with jobs that'll do a whole lot less damage for the sake of inclusiveness. And don't take this as me saying "just forget those jobs!" I advocate them buffing the jobs to be closer to a baseline. At least then you could set up your own party on those jobs.

Being a proc BLU was bad. It didn't let you be a blue mage, it let you be a proccer in blue mage garbs.

*(to the extent I don't think jobs should play the same, but should do similar damage)

[Selindrile]

You clean/bandage the wound, change the bandage as necessary, you take antibiotics.

You use the gimmick to increase job diversity short term changing the gimmicks to keep them appropriate, you keep working on job balance for the long haul.

Yep, all seems appropriate to me.

[Balloon]

Metaphors aren't my fortay.

I think if you're making content around gimmicks that force you to take lesser used jobs you're doing both camps a disservice. You either have to make sure the content is easy enough to be tackled by those jobs (because let's face it, you're not going to be doing as much as a SAM) or have it be the BLU case, where you're there just to do one specific thing and not much else.

If the gimmick is easy to ignore, like having better drop rates, it'll just be ignored. If it's not easy to ignore then it just creates obnoxious content. You'll just create groups of people that are thinking "Oh well gee, this content would be fun if I didn't have to invite all these superflous jobs, and wait for them to do all their gimmicks." I'm all for inclusiveness, but I don't really like the idea of forcing inclusiveness.

I just really think that forcing square sized pegs into rounded holes is not the answer. Neither is sanding down those holes to be more round. I've drifted off into metaphor land again.

[Dazusu]

It seems like the only real solution is homogenization; as much as people will largely disagree with it - it's the only true way to make all jobs "equally balanced"; Else each job will be invited for its gimmick (outside of the truly powerful jobs - of which they are few and far between); that's how FFXI is and has always been.

In the real world case where you can make choices from a variety of truly different jobs; people will always find the optimal setup - and human nature is to go with the optimal setup / be as efficient as possible. Remove that variation/difference between jobs and it is no longer an issue.

WoW did it many years ago (and lost a lot of players as a result). Prior to WoW's homogenization of classes; the game was much more dynamic and fun (IMO) - but now, every class in the game has a place in end-game content. They are all homogenized to a degree; with some small differences to make them 'unique' (I quote that because its minimal at best)

For the record I'm against homogenization of jobs - and I am in the group that says "Keep it as it is, its worked for FFXI this long, no reason it can't continue to work".

In all the job adjustments SE has ever carried about; certain jobs have never been on top (damage wise in a group setting) - or anywhere close, and never will be. This isn't going to change now. (I'm looking at you SMN, DNC, BST, THF). I think this is mainly because SE has said many times in the past "We intended these jobs for solo play / small group play"; insinuating they were never really intended for large groups/end-game (minus THF from that)

Just my thoughts on it - I don't care either way.

[Selindrile]

I simply don't agree, in what universe would that do both camps a disservice, and those two camps are mostly made up of the same people. Was I annoyed by the gimmickyness of voidwatch, yes, but I was overall happier with endgame content that included the jobs I wanted to play, and I obviously wasn't the only one here.

Crafting content around jobs is designing the hole to fit the peg, even if it's not the most innovative design in the world.

[Arbalest]

Also I liked VW, glowing equipment with great stats was awesome even if the content was super short and spammy.


I have to extremely disagree.

VW wasn't good content; it was filler content, easily created, with such RNG that people had to kill, and kill, and kill, to get the stuff they wanted.
Some people have zero luck with this RNG (including myself) even now, several years later, because we haven't seen ANYTHING drop to our loot pool, ever.
Other people have incredible luck with the RNG and they get multiple body drops in a single run.

VW was absolutely garbage content, and I'm happier to have things like reforging, and plasm, so I can get what I need without spending an eternity zerging the same boss over and over.

Please SE, don't make more content like VW. For the love of Altana, please don't.

[Dazusu]

I have to extremely disagree.

VW wasn't good content; it was filler content, easily created, with such RNG that people had to kill, and kill, and kill, to get the stuff they wanted.
Some people have zero luck with this RNG (including myself) even now, several years later, because we haven't seen ANYTHING drop to our loot pool, ever.
Other people have incredible luck with the RNG and they get multiple body drops in a single run.

VW was absolutely garbage content, and I'm happier to have things like reforging, and plasm, so I can get what I need without spending an eternity zerging the same boss over and over.

Please SE, don't make more content like VW. For the love of Altana, please don't.

I still miss the days of Sea, Sky, Dark Ixion, Sandworm and ZNMs being somewhat relevant. All this recent content just doesn't do it for me. Personally I class Voidwatch as worse than Abyssea (though Abyssea had many good elements, such as its longevity with Empyrean weapons)

[Comeatmebro]

make friends, make your own groups, beg for a server merge, whatever, the content isn't too hard

while i'll agree it's dumb that you split the same loot more ways for a tougher fight with 10 people than 6, you can also clear all delve zones with 9 active members in an 18 man alliance.. that's 9 spots that could be literally anyone contributing absolutely nothing and a win would still be possible..

it comes down to what daz said, people will take the easiest route, se already scaled the content easily enough that you could bring whatever jobs you want for the most part.. it's just that nobody does

[Altykins]

This is a problem with the community and not with the game. Delve can be done with ANY job. The problem comes when the community wants nothing but the MOST EFFICIENT jobs to finish their task.

Personally if I see you shouting and you only want so and so job it tells me you a) want to be carried through content and b) aren't a very fun person.

The solution is to make friends and make your own groups.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

I think content such as Wildskeeper Reeve and the new high-tier Walk of Echos are steps in the right direction because they allow everyone to participate, regardless of their job. I also think that while people can still be "efficient" in 18-man content, there is still a greater chance of other jobs getting invited than in 6-man content. I also can't fault VW because it allowed every job.

Right now, the community is telling everyone to level only 1 of 6 jobs when there are actually 22 jobs. That's extremely flawed.

[Bebekeke]

I don't agree with job homogenization*, but I feel if you're invited because of some gimmick.. or because in this case you'd increase drop rates.. That's like putting a bandage over a infected gangrenous wound. A temporary fix to a much deeper problem. I could have probably come up with a better metaphor.

So in your opinion, THF might as well just die, right? As that's the ONLY reason that THF is EVER| invited to ANY content lol.

As to HP scaling, I have no issues with it, if done right. Delve often seems to be done with up to 9 people and it doesn't seem to stop them completing it generally, providing the players are all acceptably geared and decent players.

Add NO MORE than 10% HP per additional player. This way you need 16 players to actually double the HP of a mob faced by a 6-man PT. The reason it should be so is because there are only so many support jobs that you can throw into the mix to jeep the fight fair. Once you start adding more melees to the mix, you're looking at faster TP spam and thus needing more WHM/SCHs for healing, or extra stuns from whichever stun job is flavour of the month. It's not as simple as just adding a mirror of the first party (unless both parties are fighting in separate areas, and the extra HP to knock down doesn't become a burden on MP).

Of course, SE probably has tried it out under lab conditions on the test server (or the dev's equivalent) and it all works fine when you can choose your gear/weapons from a list on the server, and everyone can rearrange their merits/CP for each battle, and everyone has every job levelled and skilled.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

People will argue that homogenization will bring nothing unique, but what do we really have now - nothing unique. I guess you could argue that we have 6 unique ways of doing something in this game, since only 6 jobs are actually invited to content. It's as if the other 16 jobs never existed. Why even have those other 16 jobs if we are going to be forced into leveling one of the 6 "best" jobs anyway? Why add new jobs? Why adjust those other 16 jobs when they will never be given a chance because people are stuck in their ways?

Also, telling people they need to make friends/join a linkshell/make their own party is not going to solve this problem. Linkshells/friends will always think about #1 first, and if you're a new player it's going to be difficult making friends/finding a reliable linkshell with the low population. When it comes to making a party, people simply won't join when they find out you don't have one of the 6 "best" jobs. You'll be spending hours, maybe even days trying to complete a 6-man party. Sad part is that some parties spend hours trying to find the "best" jobs when there is another job available with a player behind it just as skilled/geared.

I want to enjoy content, too. {Please Invite Me.}^-^)v

[Balloon]

So in your opinion, THF might as well just die, right? As that's the ONLY reason that THF is EVER| invited to ANY content lol.

How many times does that happen though? That's sorta my point. People will often just ignore that, in the same way people often just don't bring THF.

I'm in the camp of adjusting jobs rather than forcing inclusiveness via content. THF should be able to do more than just increase drop rates.