What about the other jobs?

[Maikeru_Sylph]

So, looking over the Damage Dealing section of the forum I came across this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/41073-Adjust-content-so-other-DDs-are-relevant from 4 months ago, and found it to still be relevant today. Why? Because over half of the jobs in this game are never utilized for new game content. However, to be completely honest, this isn't just a 4 month long issue, this is a FFXI lifetime issue. For example, why are PUP and DRG still LOLjobs? Did they not receive any updates? If they did, apparently the updates weren't enough. SMN was once considered a great source of reliable/consistent DPS, but is no longer invited and not even considered a DD by many. MNK is now the best magic DD? What? Why even release GEO and RUN when they supposedly aren't up to "par" with PLD/BRD in game?

Once again, why is that? Are people simply unable to think outside of the box? Are the other jobs not able to perform up to par with the other jobs? You tell me.

Why can't people play the jobs they want and enjoy the content as well? Why are they instead pigeonholed into playing one of the select few jobs wanted for content? Why so much endgame content focused on 6-man parties? If there were room for more than 6, then other jobs might actually get invited. 6-man parties are severely limiting and force people to be too selective.

[Mitruya]

You have all my likes.
PUP and DRG and many other jobs have gotten tons of updates, yet it still isn't efficient enough for the elitists. Not to mention there are some serious drawbacks to certain jobs on really difficult content - you can look around on the forums and see where people have tried and what their experiences were. Some if not all jobs CAN clear content but it takes knowing the right people or setting up your own runs to achieve it.
It's partially the jobs (weak pets, JA delay, attack penalties, low defense, etc.), partially the players ("go solo it with Trusts" or "flavor-of-the-month job or GTFO"), and partially the content (time constraints, massive damage, etc.) that screws us over.
And yeah I agree with all the lowman stuff, it really leaves people out.

[Doombringer]

i don't think numbers has anything to do with it. back when delve HAD to be done in an alliance (it still CAN be done in an alliance but whatever, we'll gloss over that for now.) it was still generally a very rigid setup.

players are always going to find what's optimal and use it. but hey, at least drg is slated for a pretty interesting buff sometime next month?

[Malithar]

Some jobs need help, sure, but in a LS or friend's group, most are able to perform well enough to complete. From a PUG stand point, you'll never see a situation where all 22 jobs are welcomed outside of something highly gimmicky like VW, and even that shunned Bst and Pup. As was said above, players find the optimal way to do things and roll with it. If everything was on the same plane of power, and any setup could be made optimal, why bother bringing Sam, War, Drk, etc, when a Bst, Pup, Smn, Blm, etc could put out just as much damage, have no fear of weakened status, and DD from out of range? They have a way to go as far as balancing goes, but all things considered, most jobs at least bring something desirable, whether that's solo, party, or alliance content.


Why even release GEO and RUN when they supposedly aren't up to "par" with PLD/BRD in game?

They released Geo because they felt there needed to be something more OP than Brd. :P I doubt it'll ever hit the PUG scene as it's not an easy job to pull the most out of, what with positioning within bubbles to maintain buffs/debuffs and for the Geo's own MP efficiency being major factors in how well it can perform. But for the groups that can utilize it? Geo blows Brd away. Geo + Brd as a back line is something magical.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

Some jobs need help, sure, but in a LS or friend's group, most are able to perform well enough to complete. From a PUG stand point, you'll never see a situation where all 22 jobs are welcomed outside of something highly gimmicky like VW, and even that shunned Bst and Pup. As was said above, players find the optimal way to do things and roll with it. If everything was on the same plane of power, and any setup could be made optimal, why bother bringing Sam, War, Drk, etc, when a Bst, Pup, Smn, Blm, etc could put out just as much damage, have no fear of weakened status, and DD from out of range? They have a way to go as far as balancing goes, but all things considered, most jobs at least bring something desirable, whether that's solo, party, or alliance content.

Right now, we are looking at a situation where SMN/DNC/THF/BLU/RUN/GEO/PUP/BST/NIN/COR/DRG are either sometimes invited (when they can't find BRD, MNK, or RNG) or never invited. For those jobs that are never invited, does that mean they are supposed to solo content? I can solo a lot on my SMN, but I don't think I can solo any of the current endgame content, and even old content requires some decent gear. I guess that means I have to level one of the jobs they will invite, so I can get gear for the jobs I want to play.

[Malithar]

I guess that means I have to level one of the jobs they will invite, so I can get gear for the jobs I want to play.

That's pretty much been the case for the entirety of FFXI's existence. Be glad that in this day and age, leveling and gearing a job can take days, whereas in the early days, if you found yourself in love with say, Bst, Mnk, or Drg, you had no real relevant roll in any type of content, and was facing months of work to get another job up to par.

When you say "a job they will invite," if it's your friends/LS, sell yourself on what you bring on x job to a group. You listed numerous jobs that bring plenty to a great number of fights, and a good player behind the controls can do enough with it to either be slightly less optimal, or go above and beyond what your group may know the job can do. As said, some need a lil boost, for sure. But regardless of what boost they receive, this "they" you speak of, being pugs, will never, ever seek a less optimal job, unless they have no choice or a gimmick leaning the content to the strength of those jobs is in play.

[Aeron]

That's pretty much been the case for the entirety of FFXI's existence. Be glad that in this day and age, leveling and gearing a job can take days, whereas in the early days, if you found yourself in love with say, Bst, Mnk, or Drg, you had no real relevant roll in any type of content, and was facing months of work to get another job up to par.

When you say "a job they will invite," if it's your friends/LS, sell yourself on what you bring on x job to a group. You listed numerous jobs that bring plenty to a great number of fights, and a good player behind the controls can do enough with it to either be slightly less optimal, or go above and beyond what your group may know the job can do. As said, some need a lil boost, for sure. But regardless of what boost they receive, this "they" you speak of, being pugs, will never, ever seek a less optimal job, unless they have no choice or a gimmick leaning the content to the strength of those jobs is in play.

Totally true statement and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. If you want to play on jobs that are outside of the established known set up for a given run the onus is on you and or your friend to achieve that. SE cant balance 22 jobs against each other, they just cant. You are always going to see some jobs that are just better then others, fact of life im afraid.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

You put this off like it's a problem that FFXI has always had and always will, but hasn't this game changed a lot? Why can't they make content that's for more than the "best" jobs? Why can't they make content for everyone? The fact that there are so many jobs and only a few are even considered for content, is a big problem. I shouldn't have to level another job so that I can play another on my own. The fact the matter is that many jobs CAN perform just as well as, if not better than, the jobs that are being invited. People are just stuck in their ways and it's extremely frustrating, especially for new players. What happens after I spend all my time getting a job to 99 and gearing it out, only to find that no one wants to invite it to content? Your solution, and has always been, to level another job. I think that's BS.

[Malithar]

You put this off like it's a problem that FFXI has always had and always will, but hasn't this game changed a lot?
In the way we exp, gear, and complete content, it's changed dramatically. But this problem has always been a thing. Were you around in 2003-2004 when Mnk's "role" was to sit on the sidelines boosting for 3 minutes or whatever, then get invited into the ally to Chi-Blast for like 1k damage? Hint, that wasn't optimal at all, it was simply what was given to them to do, to be kind of effective. Bst had no real role in most endgame, though it had some minor utility with kiting and soloing sky pops and such.


Why can't they make content that's for more than the "best" jobs? Why can't they make content for everyone? The fact that there are so many jobs and only a few are even considered for content, is a big problem.
Explain how they do that. More kiting fights for Bst and Pup pets to pick apart? As players, we'd just super buff with Perfect Defense, Geo -Att, Pld + Rngs, etc to get through it. Players in this game find an optimal way to do things, and they tend to stick to it, for better or worse. Someone posts "x strategy worked with y jobs on z fight" and suddenly that's what you see in shouts. There's not much SE can do about that, even if they wanted to.


I shouldn't have to level another job so that I can play another on my own. The fact the matter is that many jobs CAN perform just as well as, if not better than, the jobs that are being invited. People are just stuck in their ways and it's extremely frustrating
So what do you think SE should do about that? For the most part, most jobs have something to offer, whether in the absence of something more optimal, or for an off the wall strategy. Fact is, as you said, players are stuck in their ways, and no amount of boosts to non-optimal jobs will change that, unless those boosts make them the optimal choice. But doing that gets you into a whole new deal of a mess, because lo and behold, the jobs that are optimal are so because that's all they can do. If Bst, Pup, Dnc, Smn, Blm, Rng, Blu, etc could suddenly do just as much, if not more damage than say Sam, War, Drk, or Mnk, then for what reason would you ever bring those jobs? Using them would risk weakness, which can be worked around by pet jobs, casters, or Rngs, plus many of those other jobs have JA's that offer them the ability to shed enmity, whereas none of the strong melees do.

Each comes with it's pros and cons, it just so happens that the players have the tools available to ignore all the cons with with heavy melees in order to take advantage of their pros, IE, much higher damage than other jobs. The pros associated with the other jobs don't cut it as optimal in typical parties, but that doesn't mean they're not usable.


What happens after I spend all my time getting a job to 99 and gearing it out, only to find that no one wants to invite it to content? Your solution, and has always been, to level another job. I think that's BS.

That's the only workable solution that we have to us, as players. If you feel it's BS, if you don't agree with it, then I suggest you start or join a LS that is open to using other jobs. My own LS does things differently sometimes just cause, the game has very little content that requires an exact rigid setup that cannot be changed. Stellar Fulcrum VD is the only thing that comes to mind, and even it has an ingenious (read; high risk, but doable) strat with Rngs spread out around the room making him run all over the place instead of TP moving faces in half.

[Afania]

Right now, we are looking at a situation where SMN/DNC/THF/BLU/RUN/GEO/PUP/BST/NIN/COR/DRG are either sometimes invited (when they can't find BRD, MNK, or RNG) or never invited. For those jobs that are never invited, does that mean they are supposed to solo content? I can solo a lot on my SMN, but I don't think I can solo any of the current endgame content, and even old content requires some decent gear. I guess that means I have to level one of the jobs they will invite, so I can get gear for the jobs I want to play.

GEO doesn't get invite because half of the GEO can't stun in delve1 nor DD properly. It's down right one of the best mage job for delve. I'd take a good GEO over most other jobs in this game.

COR doesn't get invite because everyone and their mother play COR naked. You don't invite a job that's naked. The fact that the community still advocate "lv COR, roll and afk" doesn't help.

DRG is getting a pretty big buff soon, so we'll see.

[Camiie]

I guess that means I have to level one of the jobs they will invite, so I can get gear for the jobs I want to play.

But then what's the point of gearing a job if you never get to play it? It's not like it's a doll you can set on a shelf to show off. A job that you just gear and never use is a waste. If all one wants to do is play virtual dress up then there are games far more suited to that than FFXI. If all you demand from SE is that you're able to gear your job and nothing else then you really should question your priorities and standards. (This isn't aimed at you, Maikeru, just the mentality that you're referring to.)

[Zeargi]

the major problems that SMN faces are that the PB: Ward haven't scaled up since level 75 in most cases or ineffective verses everything Endgame, and the BP: Rages that are physical often times miss as it is, even with merits, JPs, and Food; The Magical ones, even with the +MAB, still end up resisted. I love SMN, and it sucks that we can no longer fill any role in a party. SE said they were adding new BPs and changing Avatar's Favor... but I'm not holding my breath that that's going to be happening anytime soon.

[Balloon]

I'm curious as to what they're going to do with favour, generally when they say "We're gonna buff something" They've actually followed through in strides. I just don't know how good they'd have to be to be able to be viable.

[Ris]

The fact the matter is that many jobs CAN perform just as well as, if not better than, the jobs that are being invited. People are just stuck in their ways and it's extremely frustrating, especially for new players. What happens after I spend all my time getting a job to 99 and gearing it out, only to find that no one wants to invite it to content? Your solution, and has always been, to level another job. I think that's BS.

This was still a problem back when I quit FFXI in... 2006 maybe? I don't remember the exact year.

Some things never change!

[Spectreman]

MNK,SAM,BRD,WHM,SCH


abyss


rest

[Selindrile]

For mages: Increase stoneskin recast, make it absorb a crapton more, talking 1000~1200, you know, 2-3 hits by something mean.

For Titan: Same huge increase in stoneskin, don't increase the Ward timer since he has to pick that vs other wards anyway, that would be nice.

Just a stray thought really, stoneskin is quite rarely useful now, generally less than 1-hit from a scary mob.

[Malithar]

Just a stray thought really, stoneskin is quite rarely useful now, generally less than 1-hit from a scary mob.

Who finds it rarely useful? Increasing your effective max HP by 445 (with gear) so you're not one shot is amazingly useful, which is why buffing it as you detailed would end up being quite a problem.

[Selindrile]

Who finds it rarely useful? Increasing your effective max HP by 445 (with gear) so you're not one shot is amazingly useful, which is why buffing it as you detailed would end up being quite a problem.

The vast majority of people don't bother casting it anymore, I do generally pre-fight, but can't think of a fight I recast it in, perhaps if it had the casting time of a barspell, but longer recast? /shrug, tbh was more a suggestion about how to strengthen Smn than stoneskin, could increase Stoneskin recast to like 5 minutes in that scenario, can't imagine it being overpowered then, but would be far more useful for using during the fight pre-buff.

[Redbeam]

The only real valid complaint here is capacity/job points since you specifically have to be on that job to do said content. The "problem" is with the playerbase, not with SE otherwise. It's the players that decide which jobs they want to use. As it's been said, form a ls or group of friends that don't care about the optimal jobs if you want to do content on a specific job.

[Camiie]

The only real valid complaint here is capacity/job points since you specifically have to be on that job to do said content. The "problem" is with the playerbase, not with SE otherwise. It's the players that decide which jobs they want to use. As it's been said, form a ls or group of friends that don't care about the optimal jobs if you want to do content on a specific job.

The players decide based on what SE gives us. Garbage in garbage out.

[Redbeam]

As someone said, you can't balance 22 jobs. Get them as close as you like, the ones that do best are still gonna be the only ones shouted for. Most jobs aren't garbage to begin with; they're just not optimal either.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

As someone said, you can't balance 22 jobs. Get them as close as you like, the ones that do best are still gonna be the only ones shouted for. Most jobs aren't garbage to begin with; they're just not optimal either.

Ok, thanks for posting the obvious. You've been a real help.

I know there have been other threads that touch on this topic before, but it needs to be said again, and again, until Square Enix does SOMETHING that fixes the current situation. They keep adding content, but not all the jobs are "optimized" for it. Therefore, the same jobs keep getting invited, placing the other jobs further behind.

You brought up Capacity Points, but I wasn't going to say anything about it because you can get them solo. Truth be told, though, the same jobs aren't getting invited to Capacity Points parties either, and as a result are getting Capacity Points at a much slower pace. This of course places them EVEN further behind the "best" jobs. Now, I know the Capacity Points system doesn't offer much in the way of improvements, but it still offers improvements nonetheless.

The way things stand currently, you cannot continue progression at 99 unless you are a BRD/WHM/SCH/PLD/MNK/RNG, maybe GEO/COR/SAM (if no BRD or RNG/MNK available). If you are NIN/DNC/PUP/BST/SMN/RUN/THF/DRK/BLU/RDM/BLM/WAR, you might as well be playing a single-player console RPG.

[Redbeam]

Make your own groups and that won't be an issue. I was mnk back when no distortion = no party. Was it more of a pain than just joining a shout or sitting in town with my flag up? Of course it was, but I was able to do it. What was my next job after mnk? Dnc (Yea, I didn't level another job for that many years, lol; so imagine all the stuff I had to make my own pts for in that time frame; far before mnk was ever popular, only exception being salvage). Then came pup (obviously the worst of the 3), despite people not wanting me even making my own groups, didn't lose my first parse until I was lv 61 (vs a drg on birds).

am I saying that jobs don't need adjustments? No, I'm not. A lot of the jobs COULD use some adjustments. All I'm saying is that even after the adjustments, if there are going to be jobs left out. Buff the hell out of WAR? maybe mnk gets knocked out. Buff the hell out of smn? maybe rng gets knocked out. Jobs may shift around, but they can't all be optimal. No matter what adjustments they make, jobs are going to be left out and that has nothing to do with SE, but with the attitude of the player base

[Malithar]

The way things stand currently, you cannot continue progression at 99 unless you are a BRD/WHM/SCH/PLD/MNK/RNG, maybe GEO/COR/SAM (if no BRD or RNG/MNK available). If you are NIN/DNC/PUP/BST/SMN/RUN/THF/DRK/BLU/RDM/BLM/WAR, you might as well be playing a single-player console RPG.

What gives you the idea that you cannot continue progressing on any of those jobs?

Hint: Every single job you listed I've had in a CP party, hell just last night had one that was 2x Geo /Rdm and /Whm, Blm/Rdm, Blu/War, Nin/War, and a Drk/Sam. Group was in Woh Gates, and I was honestly skeptical as hell that it'd work (Whirl Claws is some rough AoE for so little healing), but it worked just fine. Blm pulled rabbits to us to save on Geo- recasting MP, sleepga'd pulls, nuked if he had time, or just saved it for when we hit the worm room. Ran with Indi-Haste, Indi-Precision, Geo-Refresh, Geo-Frailty with the mages keeping people topped off and buffed. 90 min party, lil over 7 JPs earned with 2 uses of Capacity Ring.

It's been echoed multiple times in this thread, this whole "wahhhhh I can't do x" isn't cause of some obscure job dysfunction, it's because players don't shout for non-optimal setups. Have you tried responding to a CP party shout listing your jobs? Have you tried setting up your own? Can't really give you any advice, because what's described in thread's like this isn't the case on Bahamut. If someone sets up a CP party, typically, they shout for any job, or at the very most a specific role, healer, buffer, or DD. In parties like the one last night, we roll with what we got and make it work.

Accuracy is the hardest thing to overcome with CP mobs, as without buffs or gear + food, you might be hurting some. But conquer that and they're cake, they don't have much HP at all, maybe 15kish. With mobs that weak, it's not worth searching out optimal setups to grind, just go with what 6 people want CP on.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

What gives you the idea that you cannot continue progressing on any of those jobs?

Hint: Every single job you listed I've had in a CP party, hell just last night had one that was 2x Geo /Rdm and /Whm, Blm/Rdm, Blu/War, Nin/War, and a Drk/Sam. Group was in Woh Gates, and I was honestly skeptical as hell that it'd work (Whirl Claws is some rough AoE for so little healing), but it worked just fine. Blm pulled rabbits to us to save on Geo- recasting MP, sleepga'd pulls, nuked if he had time, or just saved it for when we hit the worm room. Ran with Indi-Haste, Indi-Precision, Geo-Refresh, Geo-Frailty with the mages keeping people topped off and buffed. 90 min party, lil over 7 JPs earned with 2 uses of Capacity Ring.

It's been echoed multiple times in this thread, this whole "wahhhhh I can't do x" isn't cause of some obscure job dysfunction, it's because players don't shout for non-optimal setups. Have you tried responding to a CP party shout listing your jobs? Have you tried setting up your own? Can't really give you any advice, because what's described in thread's like this isn't the case on Bahamut. If someone sets up a CP party, typically, they shout for any job, or at the very most a specific role, healer, buffer, or DD. In parties like the one last night, we roll with what we got and make it work.

Accuracy is the hardest thing to overcome with CP mobs, as without buffs or gear + food, you might be hurting some. But conquer that and they're cake, they don't have much HP at all, maybe 15kish. With mobs that weak, it's not worth searching out optimal setups to grind, just go with what 6 people want CP on.
And this is why I didn't want to bring up CP. Obviously, as a melee/ranged/non-magical DD, you're going to have a greater chance of getting into a CP party because it's basically mindless grinding of XP mobs, and the faster you kill X the more CP you get. If you could get into a merit party 6 years ago, you can get into a CP party now. However, regardless of our differences in server populations, the chances of seeing a PUP/SMN/BST/BLM in a CP party are slim to none.

The real issue in job advancement at 99 lies with Delve, Skirmish, and future endgame content. As you and a few before you have noted, players will always choose the optimum setup for everything. And, according to hearsay, BRD/WHM/PLD/MNK/RNG is the optimum setup for everything. Therefore, despite our differences in population, I'm fairly certain that BRD/WHM/MNK/RNG/PLD/COR/GEO are the only jobs being asked to come to said events.

Congratulations to you for being to able get into one of these endgame parties with one of the other 15 jobs. That doesn't mean it's a common occurrence.

And, just because I make a party doesn't mean people will join.

[Metaking]

well if you make a blm style party you will get cp faster than melee style in woh gates, acrux just die way to easy for blms, get like 3 blms and a cor(macc roll actually does wonders here) and own ^.^

[Afania]

And this is why I didn't want to bring up CP. Obviously, as a melee/ranged/non-magical DD, you're going to have a greater chance of getting into a CP party because it's basically mindless grinding of XP mobs, and the faster you kill X the more CP you get. If you could get into a merit party 6 years ago, you can get into a CP party now. However, regardless of our differences in server populations, the chances of seeing a PUP/SMN/BST/BLM in a CP party are slim to none.

The real issue in job advancement at 99 lies with Delve, Skirmish, and future endgame content. As you and a few before you have noted, players will always choose the optimum setup for everything. And, according to hearsay, BRD/WHM/PLD/MNK/RNG is the optimum setup for everything. Therefore, despite our differences in population, I'm fairly certain that BRD/WHM/MNK/RNG/PLD/COR/GEO are the only jobs being asked to come to said events.

Congratulations to you for being to able get into one of these endgame parties with one of the other 15 jobs. That doesn't mean it's a common occurrence.

And, just because I make a party doesn't mean people will join.

Another player playing a different game I guess. I've seen PUP in CP pt many times, the reason why I don't see SMN BST BLM is because nobody want to farm CP for them. In reality BLM is one of the most efficient job for CP farm and it can probably farm CP solo more efficient than most 6 man CP pt PUG.