Contradance and Steps

[Byrth]

First, I'd like to say that I am excited that Dancer is getting new abilities and stronger maximum debuff potency and agree that these abilities will likely improve the job. The job will certainly be better after these changes than it is right now. I am glad that you guys are still paying attention to the job and attempting to fix it in some way that does not involve job points.


However, the changes will not make DNC desirable and fail to seriously address any of the problems with the job's healing/debuffing.


Dancer fails as a healer under the following conditions:
1) A lot of AoE damage spam with too many people in range - Critical flaw: Dancer always has to be in range and has to feed TP to continue healing. There are definitely monsters where Dancer fails as a healer when you consider damage created through their TP feed.
2) AoE status effects that hit the Dancer - Critical flaw: Dancer always has to be in range
3) Situations where monsters are able to do a lot of single target damage rapidly and wear out our timers - This used to be a much larger problem but has been substantially addressed by splitting the Waltz timers.
Example: If you are fighting AATT, Sleepga or being hit with Amon Drive would render you impotent as a healer. If fighting Ouryu, any of his Slowga forms would render you impotent as a healer. If fighting AAMR, being hit with Havoc Spiral would render you impotent as a healer. If fighting AAEV, all the AoE damage would overwhelm you. If fighting Shadow Lord, all the AoE damage would overwhelm you. If fighting Puppet in Peril, all the AoE damage would overwhelm you. etc.


Dancer fails as a debuffer under the following conditions:
6) Fights are quick, so daze potency is low on average - Critical flaw: Most fights are quick, even in events like Ra'Skirmish. Heck, Tojil takes 3 minutes to kill?
7) Dancer's debuffs aren't useful - Feather Step is always useful, but Quickstep/Box Step/Stutter Step are not useful against the level 75 content that most people use Dancers for.
8) Dancer's debuff delays outweigh their benefit - This is similar to #2, but factors in Haste. In situations with high Haste, you take on considerable DD-burden to maintain an aggressive Step rotation.
Example: It currently takes 75 seconds for dancer to provide an average of 11% Defense Down. This assumes that the monster lives for 75 seconds (most do not) and that Presto is up when you start. It realistically costs about 7~8 seconds of JA delay. So the Dancer sacrifices ~10% of their DPS for 11% Defense Down. It might net a gain in DPS for the group, or it might not depending what you're fighting and what your other buffs/debuffs are. After the patch, we will be able to continue spending ~10% of our DPS for slightly stronger average debuffs in longer fights, which is an improvement over the current situation but will only apply to monsters that live longer than a minute.


Superior solutions would have been to give us an AoE status removal Waltz with low recast (#2 addressed) and increase Level 1-5 Daze potency for Dancer main job (#6, #8 addressed).
* As proposed, the Step changes will not have any effect on the vast majority of fights, because the vast majority of fights do not even reach Level 5 Daze. If implemented as I proposed, this would have affected all fights.
* Contradance is fine as a JA and I look forward to using it, but its 5 minute timer means that it can't be relied on strategically in any fight. If I need Erasega every time a monster uses a bad TP move, the monster uses the bad TP move 1/5 of the time, and the monster uses 10 TP moves per minute, then I need Erasega twice per minute on average and sometimes as often as twice every 6 seconds. A 5 minute timer is not going to work for that. I will probably just save it for a Divine Waltz II in bad situations.

[Grekumah]

Greetings,

Thanks for the feedback on dancer.

The September version update is right around the corner and we’d like to hear your feedback after you've actually had a chance to try out the adjustments that are to take place.

In the mean time, however, I’d like to give a tiny bit of supplemental information about the dancer adjustments.

First, Contradance is an ability that is on par with white mage's Divine Seal, so you can expect it to give healing potency a nice boost. Additionally, we've made adjustments so that dancer as a main job can play a bigger role in longer party battles by boosting the effects of steps. As an example, if you stack steps up to level 10 with Feather Step, the entire party’s critical hit rate will increase by 10% and if you stack steps up to level 10 with Stutter Step, the monster’s magic evasion will be reduced by 30.

Also, as a side note, we've been receiving requests for waltzes that are similar to white mage's Esuna or blue mage's Winds of Promyvion, but we do not have any plans to add something like this at the moment.

[Minikom]

now you guys added new ja for dnc and recast is lower than Divine seal and basically this new jA does same thing, are whms gettng reduction on timer for divine seal?

[Karbuncle]

Greetings,

Thanks for the feedback on dancer.

The September version update is right around the corner and we’d like to hear your feedback after you've actually had a chance to try out the adjustments that are to take place.

In the mean time, however, I’d like to give a tiny bit of supplemental information about the dancer adjustments.

First, Contradance is an ability that is on par with white mage's Divine Seal, so you can expect it to give healing potency a nice boost. Additionally, we've made adjustments so that dancer as a main job can play a bigger role in longer party battles by boosting the effects of steps. As an example, if you stack steps up to level 10 with Feather Step, the entire party’s critical hit rate will increase by 10% and if you stack steps up to level 10 with Stutter Step, the monster’s magic evasion will be reduced by 30.

Also, as a side note, we've been receiving requests for waltzes that are similar to white mage's Esuna or blue mage's Winds of Promyvion, but we do not have any plans to add something like this at the moment.

Thanks Grems :)

On the steps bit, I think what Byrth is trying to say is that most battles won't last long enough for any one DNC to get a step up to 10, so It would be hard to fully utilize the bonuses this update offers. Also, is DNCs design to be a DD healer or a Healer DD? Cause at the moment it excels at neither, and I can't even remember the last time, in years, I've even seen a DNC in endgame (let alone in town walking around). I mean, people complain about how useless SMN and BST are but at least I see those in Dynamis and a little ways back ADL/Legion... but DNC? Can't even remember getting a tell from a DNC for events like skirmish where im just looking for any DD....

Sorry... I didn't mean to turn this into a complaint (I don't even play DNC) =.=a

Thanks again!

[Astrael]

I for one am in love with the Step changes, not all fights are going to be over in under 2 minutes so you'll get to take advantage of them here and there and it's not like we go from 0 to 30% in one shot, it's gradually stronger over time... even Step level 1 is a debuff. Plus more finishing moves to reverse flourish or pre-load building flourish/climactic flourish is always nice.

A little iffier on Contradance just for the recast but it's got two uses I'd use it for and that's better than 0, so it's not going to waste on me.

I play DNC in all endgame content (minus Wopket, the piercing resist is just not worth fighting against), and really, this is what I was asking for the whole time for DNC main. All I really want now is a better distribution of the Flourish timers so we can use and stack finishing moves more often and I'm set.

[Karbuncle]

In all seriousness, good for you for going DNC to things, but my point was not a single person or group is wanting/shouting/thinking DNC for anything. You might play it all the time in endgame, but, your situation is seriously as unique as the word can justify. DNC is by all means a suboptimal and subpar job, excelling at neither healing nor damage nor debuffing, and brings little unique aspects to the table.

[FrankReynolds]

The amount of effort / time it takes to get and maintain 10 steps is seriously prohibitive to the point that no one is even going to consider bringing dancer for that. This job needs help.

[Liteholt]

As someone who plays DNC, and plays it well, I can say that DNC is a very viable addition to end-game content. In Skirmishes, we can tear things up, provide spot-healing to take some pressure off the WHMs when AoE attacks land with Divine Waltz (my waltz setup can restore 600+ HP with DW2, 770+ with CW3), and use our steps to enfeeble the mobs. Just last night, I was in an AA party. We tore up the MR, EV, and TT (on normal, but still not anywhere near easy). I've also done extremely well in Alluvion Skirmish and Outer Ra'Kaznar Skirmish, as being on the move and still being able to heal is a big advantage in those events.

The biggest issue, that I see, with DNC is that it is a job that can very well perform in the top-tier, I find myself often out-parsing SAMs, but it takes a player who knows how to play the job, and can shift with the flow of battle to what is needed in the moment.

[Ataraxia]

As someone who plays DNC, and plays it well, I can say that DNC is a very viable addition to end-game content. In Skirmishes, we can tear things up, provide spot-healing to take some pressure off the WHMs when AoE attacks land with Divine Waltz (my waltz setup can restore 600+ HP with DW2, 770+ with CW3), and use our steps to enfeeble the mobs. Just last night, I was in an AA party. We tore up the MR, EV, and TT (on normal, but still not anywhere near easy). I've also done extremely well in Alluvion Skirmish and Outer Ra'Kaznar Skirmish, as being on the move and still being able to heal is a big advantage in those events.

The biggest issue, that I see, with DNC is that it is a job that can very well perform in the top-tier, I find myself often out-parsing SAMs, but it takes a player who knows how to play the job, and can shift with the flow of battle to what is needed in the moment.

I been DNC since 75 cap. I do not believe you can out-parsing a SAM when DNC can't even out-parse a WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG, RNG. The Samurai must of been really lazy to get out-parse by a DNC. With Current update to weapon skill damage you can not out-parse these DD listed and believe me when i say this because i tried. I believe a THF can pretty much out damage a DNC. You can test this for yourself when you do Morta VW shout and see what i'm talking about or do a Delve boss run. :/

Unless a miracle happen and Akihiko Matsui decided to lower Climactic Flourish JA to 30 second and fix Striking Flourish / Ternary Flourish than just maybe DNC can reach a 90% DD while other job like SAM, WAR, DRK, DRG, RNG will be 100%. I will currently rate DNC below a THF since THF can resort to sneak attack + Rudra's storm every 1 minute or use trick attack + Rudra's storm when sneak attack is down and it does a lot of damage. DNC is indeed a good support role but why would anyone invite us when they can get a geo, rdm or even a sch with current update to RDM and GEO they would prefer those job. If they wanted DD they probably go for Sam or Mnk. So if anyone want to be a DNC in event is to be Leader and go DNC =) "But be careful that you don't make a fool out of yourself in high level content and fail because they most likely blame DNC"

[Astrael]

Grudgingly getting into semantics, it only takes 30 seconds to get to a level 5 step (but another minute from there to get to level 10).

Pull [0:00] > Level 2 (Precharged Presto) [Def-7% or Evasion-12 or Crit+4%]
[0:15] > Level 3 [Def-9% or Evasion-16 or Crit+5%]
[0:30] > Level 5 (Presto) [Def-13% or Evasion-24 or Crit+7%]

This is our current state pre-update. On fodder mobs--the only actual things that don't take longer than 30 seconds to kill--I would just be going full DD Saber Dance anyways with just the initial step to charge Finishing Moves when needed. This update isn't meant for those kinds of fights though, because no one is really worried about debuffing fodder.

[0:45] > Level 6 [Def-15% or Evasion-28 or Crit+8%]
[1:00] > Level 8 (Presto) [Def-19% or Evasion-36 or Crit+10%]
[1:15] > Level 9 [Def-21% or Evasion-40 or Crit+11%]
[1:30] > Level 10 [Def-23% or Evasion-44 or Crit+12%]

[3:30] > Level 2 (Presto) *assuming the 2 minute duration extension remains

Realistically, most Delve boss fights and D/VD high-tier battlefields are not over in 1.5 minutes without some serious gear and job optimization and even then. But, we may as well discuss what role several other jobs have if we're going that far in our assessment of what is optimal or not. Steps may not be a fulltime debuff at maximum potency but level 10 is still easily attainable and will last the duration of a presumed "quick" boss NM fight. At the 45 second marker of a fight is the moment the update takes effect. If the battle does last longer than Step duration of 2 minutes (at the 3:30 mark), then arguments against the update due to battle duration become moot because the fight is long enough for DNC's debuffs to make a difference. Furthermore, the time it takes to reach level 10 can be partially mitigated by any other job going /DNC (such as COR) to help elevate the 1-5 Step level, eliminating 15-30 seconds worth of wait.

Addressing Contradance, it go without saying but DNC by design is not a job that you slot in to fill a sole healer role unless it is content with literally no or light AOE damage. As far as I've been playing it, it is primarily a DD (sometimes tank) that is able to adapt quickly and supports the backline with arguably the fastest first-response heals in critical situations/heavy debuffs while supplying enhanced stat down. It is not a slouch in DD by any means with the ability to self-skillchain every 2 steps applied in the above pattern (and it is more than capable of getting 1000+ free TP between Reverse Flourishes even with job ability delays and an occasional healing waltz in that time). But with Contradance, it can do one of two major things once a fight: fully heal the party with Divine Waltz II or erase a whole party's worth of debuffs, which saves the WHM time especially if non-mythic and JA timers are down for Accession. In my experience DNC only gets crippled as a healer when Amnesia'd or Paralyzed, due to it eating job ability timers (which is the one thing I really wish they'd address).

As Liteholt said, DNC is a challenging job that takes excellent timing to play well. But it can perform/assist in any capacity and actually serves to make most fights simply easier and due to it being surprisingly very hard to kill can make the difference between a win or loss (as I have demonstrated several times in delve/KI fights). These updates may not be low effort, but they've still got uses in content that matters and I'm looking forward to them. Now just to wait for their addressing of the Finishing Move system (one of the last things they claimed DNC was having adjusted).

[Ataraxia]

Greetings,

Thanks for the feedback on dancer.

The September version update is right around the corner and we’d like to hear your feedback after you've actually had a chance to try out the adjustments that are to take place.

In the mean time, however, I’d like to give a tiny bit of supplemental information about the dancer adjustments.

First, Contradance is an ability that is on par with white mage's Divine Seal, so you can expect it to give healing potency a nice boost. Additionally, we've made adjustments so that dancer as a main job can play a bigger role in longer party battles by boosting the effects of steps. As an example, if you stack steps up to level 10 with Feather Step, the entire party’s critical hit rate will increase by 10% and if you stack steps up to level 10 with Stutter Step, the monster’s magic evasion will be reduced by 30.

Also, as a side note, we've been receiving requests for waltzes that are similar to white mage's Esuna or blue mage's Winds of Promyvion, but we do not have any plans to add something like this at the moment.

The only good part to this update is that you get level 10 steps and more TP. I personally have not use Feather step but i do use box step more. The delay to using every step is about 15 second wait time so that about 2 minute and 30 second to reach level 10 but your not gonna have that much time when your dealing with Eudaemon Skirmish. There is a time Limit and the fastest DD like SAM, MNK, WAR, DRK is best for it. Also i like to point out that critical hit rate 10% at level 10 is kind of weak when Empyrean weapon 119 afterglow Aura offer 10% critical hit rate if I am not mistaken? As a DNC I was hoping for new steps like magic defense down, attack down, magic attack down but i guess not. If Feather step was to include all the effect of Quickstep and Boxstep than just maybe it might be popular. I have doubt that many people would want to invite a DNC but it's a lot of fun to solo stuff but as for getting invited to do Delve good luck with that.

The delay to using steps should be remove completely or lower it down to 5 second. I would like to post a link to a japanese video so Akihiko Matsui and Grekumah to watch. The speed of seeing a SAM and DRK clearing a Delve make DNC a complete Joke with all the delay they have to deal with steps.

Taru user name is Casas Casa and here is his youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZAx9hC0O7g
FF11 - 1-5B Yorcia Weald Delve clear in less than 15 minute.
There are more of his video you can check out. The skill of a japanese player in FFXI are fun to watch =).

So if you gonna make DNC update at least make it awesome and good just like a RDM + GEO update because that was awesome.

[Astrael]

I been DNC since 75 cap. I do not believe you can out-parsing a SAM when DNC can't even out-parse a WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG, RNG. The Samurai must of been really lazy to get out-parse by a DNC. With Current update to weapon skill damage you can not out-parse these DD listed and believe me when i say this because i tried. I believe a THF can pretty much out damage a DNC. You can test this for yourself when you do Morta VW shout and see what i'm talking about or do a Delve boss run. :/


True, DNC isn't going to win parses typically, but for Muyingwa and Cailimh Delve it can and has outparsed all but decent SAM (just from raw WS damage/skillchains) and decent RNG while skipping (most) support heals. However it is able to hold its own and remain competitive in a lot of content, for example: recently did 5-man run Dakuwaqa (MNK DNC WHM RDM and 2-song BRD mule) where my DNC still managed 43% of the total damage parse on a mob that favors MNK half the time even while playing very defensively with heals and riding Fan Dance. With Grand Pas, you can essentially destroy the piercing-weak phases for Tojil and Daku with a 4-5 part level 4 skillchain (if allowed to) or just multiple skillchains if other DDs are WSing in the middle.

[Malithar]

Also i like to point out that critical hit rate 10% at level 10 is kind of weak when Empyrean weapon 119 afterglow Aura offer 10% critical hit rate if I am not mistaken?

Most of your post is pretty lawlsy, but this really takes the cake.

[FrankReynolds]

Stuff...

I'm not even gonna debate you on what dnc can and can't do. If you think dnc is okay, then by all means keep telling the developers how great it is. I'm sure they would be happy to never update it again.

[Astrael]

I'm not even gonna debate you on what dnc can and can't do. If you think dnc is okay, then by all means keep telling the developers how great it is. I'm sure they would be happy to never update it again.

Nah, that was never my intent, I'm fully aware how it stacks against other jobs in core party roles and where it needs help to get invites. But all I've been concerned with in posting here is my view on these two updates since that's the topic of the thread (I like the fact they are coming and I can make use of them) and clarify some information. If my post count is any indication, I would rather just sit back and let others debate these points, but DNC doesn't seem to have many applied endgame perspectives discussed in these threads.

Realistically: I want them to re-evaluate Finishing Moves/Flourishes (especially Flourishes III), and dagger WS damage clearly needs more work (possibly adding attack bonuses across the board, as both DNC and THF have low base attack). Job ability delay reduction or elimination would be amazing, but I don't believe it would be a DNC-only adjustment if they went forward with that.

[Ataraxia]

True, DNC isn't going to win parses typically, but for Muyingwa and Cailimh Delve it can and has outparsed all but decent SAM (just from raw WS damage/skillchains) and decent RNG while skipping (most) support heals. However it is able to hold its own and remain competitive in a lot of content, for example: recently did 5-man run Dakuwaqa (MNK DNC WHM RDM and 2-song BRD mule) where my DNC still managed 43% of the total damage parse on a mob that favors MNK half the time even while playing very defensively with heals and riding Fan Dance. With Grand Pas, you can essentially destroy the piercing-weak phases for Tojil and Daku with a 4-5 part level 4 skillchain (if allowed to) or just multiple skillchains if other DDs are WSing in the middle.

I notice your set up have a WHM, RDM and BRD with that kind of set i don't think you need a DNC at all because you have enough healing already with RDM . Most delve run i seen 1 WHM was able to heal up to 3 DD as long as their a bard present and these old delve run was clear 1-5 nm + boss with that set up. Now what i want to know is that set you did was 1-5 NM + boss or you remove some of the NM using bead? yes when it comes to Muyingwa and Cailimh DNC can do a lot of damage but what do you say about Dragoon and Ranger when their damage is also Piercing? DNC loses more than they win. With this update coming for dragoon they would rather invite a Dragoon or a Ranger relic than invite a DNC. In some cases when dealing with Cailimh a lot of set up involve Main Tank as PLD or RUN Fencer and the rest of set up is usually ranger. It easier to heal only one tank in the battle field. If you add DNC to the mix than you gonna heal DNC too but can a DNC really hold hate on Cailimh better than a PLD or RUN? i doubt it. So in the end it only works if you are able to set up a run and bring that job DNC otherwise it's not gonna happen.
I like DNC to be a popular job so people can appreciate it and invite in shout as well as LS event. Lucky for you that you set up your own run and get to bring DNC along to make a point that it does work but how do you make people understand that your good with your job as DNC and you want to tell them that it works? I'll make a list of job and compare it to DNC and i like to see what everyone think.

Dragoon = Angon instant 25% defense down and pet damage while DNC have to build level 10 steps to have that effect for defense down.
Red Mage = Haste II, Dia III, it can use Distract II remove 50 evasion and Frazzle II remove maybe 50 magic evasion. Those spell are almost instant. As for DNC they need to level 10 quickstep reduce evasion by 44?
Geomancer = Geo haste, elemental magic, Debuff compare to RDM is double the effect with recent update to GEO.

I won't bring up Bard or COR since those job has completely beaten every event you can name in FFXI since 75 cap and even now 119 item level and there is nothing going to stop them. I'm looking forward to this update to DNC and I hope it's not the end of it. If you haven't seen this video yet Astrael be sure to check it out.

Taru user name is Casas Casa and here is his youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZAx9hC0O7g

[Astrael]

Actually the RDM was there for stuns/nukes only that run, we were testing out Stun recast timers and resist rates before it actually became a thing, so he wasn't there for healing at all. The run was a full 1-5+Boss.

Part of your criticism highlights why people don't use DNC, because it's a hybrid job that isn't specifically a healer, or a debuffer. It's probably not meant to be the best at any of those or even DD, but it does enhance or partner up the effect of the jobs that are. For example, you list superior debuff jobs, but neglect to point out that DNC's debuffs are unresistable, long duration, AND stackable with all the effects detailed. Now, if the only way to "fix" DNC is to make it have one strict primary role, then I don't see any way to do it without crippling its DD ability further, otherwise risking it becoming overpowered. Something would have to give for it to be a top choice in any of the primary roles. Still, I should point out, the less I have to heal, if at all, the stronger DNC becomes as a DD.

Also, I've solo tanked Cailimh on DNC/RUN. No need for PLD or RUN main if your character is geared specifically for it. With Fan Dance, Flash, strong single+area heals and fast attacks with decent dps, it can hold hate just fine. If anything, I forget Animated Flourish even exists and can resort to that if necessary. No, it wasn't easy, but DNC is a lot of work by design.

I've seen the video, and hear similar stories since the WS/skillchain update, but this goes to one of my earlier comments. After a certain point, this becomes less about DNC specifically and more about the question: why even bother with any jobs but the ones clearing content that fast? Which quickly evolves to: why even play the game? All I can add at this point is I'm not theorycrafting here; this all comes from actual experience (to the point people actually prefer me coming DNC to events when I have a very strong relic DRK).

[Byrth]

So, this morning I made a group to do 5/5/5 Cirdas Skirmish II on my DNC. Our party was DNC, NIN, MNK, SMN, WHM, RDM (the people on LS at 9AM EST playing the jobs they were already on). I did damage, kept NMs debuffed heavily, Waltzed when appropriate, and stunned Bugard (who was the only one I found I could reliably stun). I ended up parsing first with 33.4% of alliance damage (including skillchains). The NIN was 33.0% (also including skillchains), and the rest was MNK (26%?) and the Avatars (~7% combined?). It worked. We beat the Caturae boss and cleared something like 6 floors, but had to use our keys with a Cairn up (probably to warp to the last floor.) If I had gone with a more traditional setup instead of making an intentionally sub-ideal group (DDs that can cap delay with Haste II + Haste Samba) for the sake of getting my DNC some playtime, it's possible that we would have also beaten the last floor.

A few other things of note:
* The NIN just reactivated after something like 4 months. I don't think he has any upgraded relic yet (though he has a 119 Nagi). He is not used to focusing on skillchaining yet, which is unfortunate because his 6k Blade: Hi-s would have made some really pretty double darknesses and he easily could have outparsed me.
* I ate Sharkfin Soup. I'm pretty sure the other melees were either eating RCBs or nothing. As a consequence, I was the only melee with capped hit rate.
* The SMN had Nirvana.
* Our Mistmaw kills averaged about 90 seconds, meaning that the proposed Step changes would allow me to average of -14% Defense Down instead of the average -11.3% defense down that we currently enjoy. That extra 2.7% Defense Down costs me another 30 TP and ~8 seconds of JA delay.
* The Caturae took us about 5 minutes to kill (our first encounter). In this situation, the extra levels would have been worthwhile. You have to understand, however, that you will eventually reach the annoying situation of being forced to maintain Dazes in exchange for a single Finishing Move, which will further gimp your damage. Now it'll be a much larger penalty to let your debuff wear off. It's not 30 seconds to re-cap it. It's 1.5 minutes.




As far as the proposed Dancer changes, you can see how the Step changes would have been impotent/useless above. If I'd had Contradance, I probably would have used it a few times when Waltzing, as I indicate in the OP. The issue is that neither of these changes address any of the real problems with Dancer, and you can see that the Step changes will largely have no impact at all.

[Ataraxia]

[QUOTE=Astrael;522811]Actually the RDM was there for stuns/nukes only that run, we were testing out Stun recast timers and resist rates before it actually became a thing, so he wasn't there for healing at all. The run was a full 1-5+Boss.

Also, I've solo tanked Cailimh on DNC/RUN. No need for PLD or RUN main if your character is geared specifically for it. With Fan Dance, Flash, strong single+area heals and fast attacks with decent dps, it can hold hate just fine. If anything, I forget Animated Flourish even exists and can resort to that if necessary. No, it wasn't easy, but DNC is a lot of work by design.

I did not think it was possible to do a delve with a DNC and that you point out it can do 1-5+ boss. I have a few question so when you said you Solo Tank Cailmh as DNC/RUN and there wasn't PLD or RUN present and this is actually 1-5 + boss and this set up of yours DNC tank so it work out? Did you get to use song from bard Sentinel's Scherzo or you just tank it straight up using Fan Dance. I think you should probably make a video on youtube than because if you can do this with DNC i'm sure everyone like to know how cool it is to set up a PT. About the video i posted those people clear content level 128 in 15 minute and i was hoping in other zone if they had a DNC set up can they clear it less than 30 minute? maybe not sure if that is even possible with DNC. Here in Odin some of the best LS have only clear less than 20 minute which is really good there was no DNC presented. The video i posted was not meant for you think about clearing content fast but for you to understand that party leader want performance and they will invite those Job that can get it done fast with less risk. Astrael manage to do some difficult content and clear them with DNC so that means SE should focus more on job that really fall behind like a BST and SMN. In conclusion, DNC job working as intended by Dev Team doesn't need an update at all and that some people do not know how to really use this JOB properly the end. :/

[Ataraxia]

So, this morning I made a group to do 5/5/5 Cirdas Skirmish II on my DNC. Our party was DNC, NIN, MNK, SMN, WHM, RDM (the people on LS at 9AM EST playing the jobs they were already on). I did damage, kept NMs debuffed heavily, Waltzed when appropriate, and stunned Bugard (who was the only one I found I could reliably stun). I ended up parsing first with 33.4% of alliance damage (including skillchains). The NIN was 33.0% (also including skillchains), and the rest was MNK (26%?) and the Avatars (~7% combined?). It worked. We beat the Caturae boss and cleared something like 6 floors, but had to use our keys with a Cairn up (probably to warp to the last floor.) If I had gone with a more traditional setup instead of making an intentionally sub-ideal group (DDs that can cap delay with Haste II + Haste Samba) for the sake of getting my DNC some playtime, it's possible that we would have also beaten the last floor.

A few other things of note:
* The NIN just reactivated after something like 4 months. I don't think he has any upgraded relic yet (though he has a 119 Nagi). He is not used to focusing on skillchaining yet, which is unfortunate because his 6k Blade: Hi-s would have made some really pretty double darknesses and he easily could have outparsed me.
* I ate Sharkfin Soup. I'm pretty sure the other melees were either eating RCBs or nothing. As a consequence, I was the only melee with capped hit rate.
* The SMN had Nirvana.
* Our Mistmaw kills averaged about 90 seconds, meaning that the proposed Step changes would allow me to average of -14% Defense Down instead of the average -11.3% defense down that we currently enjoy. That extra 2.7% Defense Down costs me another 30 TP and ~8 seconds of JA delay.
* The Caturae took us about 5 minutes to kill (our first encounter). In this situation, the extra levels would have been worthwhile. You have to understand, however, that you will eventually reach the annoying situation of being forced to maintain Dazes in exchange for a single Finishing Move, which will further gimp your damage. Now it'll be a much larger penalty to let your debuff wear off. It's not 30 seconds to re-cap it. It's 1.5 minutes.




As far as the proposed Dancer changes, you can see how the Step changes would have been impotent/useless above. If I'd had Contradance, I probably would have used it a few times when Waltzing, as I indicate in the OP. The issue is that neither of these changes address any of the real problems with Dancer, and you can see that the Step changes will largely have no impact at all.

Good Job Taru not only did you defeat the Jester Caturae and clear 555 Skirmish Eudaemon but you did it without a BRD or a COR. The cool part is that you bought a DNC and you out damage the monk but it was close with the ninja. This kind of set up and clear deserve a YouTube video. I'm going to call you a Super Tarutaru! =)

[Ataraxia]

I'm not even gonna debate you on what dnc can and can't do. If you think dnc is okay, then by all means keep telling the developers how great it is. I'm sure they would be happy to never update it again.

how right you are about that Frank.

[Balloon]

You can like something and be critical of it.

I never understood the attitude of just being content because you like something. Dancer has problems. Byrths testimony is not indicative of it being this fantastic job. He outlines some of the variables that led to him parsing first (Sharkfin, better play (with a focus on SC vs the NIN) etc.) Byrth is incredibly smart and competent player, if everyone in his party was playing at his level I'm not so sure that he'd parse first.

Those suggested changes by the dev team leave a lot to be desired, as Byrth says, there's very niche scenarios where they'd be useful. You're locked into maintaining the daze effect, you're sacrificing 8 seconds of TP and 30tp for 2.7% defense down. Contradance is nice but it's best use as an AoE erase is going to be hindered by it's recast.

It's nice to see testimony with competent players doing this slightly different than the status quo, but it doesn't disprove what a lot of people are saying. You're sacrificing an element of ease to make that happen. I'm not so sure that any average joes could accomplice what Byrths group did, and if they could, it'd be easier to do it in a more traditional setup. As for dancer being able to complete harder content, most jobs can, puppetmaster can do VD battlefields. It's been shown in the past. the outlying cases should never be used as examples of job efficacy though. They're not representative of the grander scheme of things.

Anyway, that's beside the point, these changes are a step in the right direction but I agree with Byrths overall conclusions. An AoE Healing Waltz and Increase 1-5 potency would have been a better solution. The changes outlined are going to be useful in very few situations.

[Byrth]

Good Job Taru not only did you defeat the Jester Caturae and clear 555 Skirmish Eudaemon but you did it without a BRD or a COR. The cool part is that you bought a DNC and you out damage the monk but it was close with the ninja. This kind of set up and clear deserve a YouTube video. I'm going to call you a Super Tarutaru! =)

Thanks, but my group contained 4 Mythics and 1 or 2 Relics:
* Afterglow Terpsichore
* Nagi (maybe Kikoku offhand? idk - He just returned and probably doesn't have another 119 Katana yet)
* Yagrush
* Spharai
* Nirvana

And the point was that we actually didn't clear the 5/5/5 Skirmish with a group tailored for Dancer (the boss appears randomly, not on the last floor). We were probably 1 floor away from clearing it, but we had to use our keys and leave. My point was that we could have taken a more traditional group (perhaps one involving my RME BRD) and pulled out an easy clear in less time. Dancer is lacking as a job.

The secondary point was that the proposed Step changes (and Contradance) would have had no substantial effect on our odds of winning. They don't/won't help Dancer address its problems.

[Astrael]

Please don't mistake my enthusiasm for the job to mean I am not critical of any shortcomings. The only reason I even specifically state what I've used the job in is to establish the fact I do use this job often in all endgame content relevant to the update because I am an unknown here, not to show that the job is perfect as is. I just simply like the fact DNC is so versatile as a frontline job, and try to push it as far as it can go.

No one knows who I am here, and that's fine, I prefer staying low key. I am not here to fight or compete with people, nor do I think the job is perfect, but I do love the job and wanted to discuss it more openly with others that might. I am just not going to focus entirely on negatives--that's not who I am. I still like this update as it addresses one thing that has always irritated me, and that's giving DNC main something that /DNC can't do just as well (or even possibly overwrite with their own Steps, looking at you Perpetuance Haste). If they continue to give DNC attention in the 50+ levels that separates it from those who sub DNC (outside of stronger heals), then I'd be even happier. But, just because I like the promise of this particular update doesn't mean I am even remotely content with it.

In any case, I apologize for ruffling any feathers as I seem to have incurred some pushback for my debut on these forums. Byrth, specifically, thank you for taking the time to bring your DNC out again specifically to address these concerns, it was interesting to read another perspective.

[Grekumah]

I would like to inform you all about future dancer adjustments that are being worked on.

In the September version update, we will be boosting dancer’s support capabilities when playing in parties and alliances by making adjustments to steps.

The enfeebling effects of steps will not be resisted by monsters as long as you have the proper amount of accuracy, so they are easy to use on harder monsters, and they will become even stronger with effects from enfeebling magic and geomancy spells.

In regards to the fact that it takes a bit of time to reach the cap of the enfeebling effects, there is a possibility of adjustments in the future; however, we’d first like everyone to try it out and we’ll be keeping an eye on the situation after it is implemented.

Additionally, in the future we will be making other adjustments to dancer and we are planning to increase their maximum dagger skill as well as other aspects to enhance their damage dealing capability.

While dancer is a job that possesses many talents, we will be making adjustments here on out that focus on the fact that they are indeed a damage dealing job.

Finally, just as a note, when it comes to Contradance we do not have any plans to further enhance dancer as a healer role, and as such we will not be reducing the recast timer.

[Balloon]

Dancer is a job that possesses many talents, we will be making adjustments here on out that focus on the fact that they are indeed a damage dealing job.


This is incredibly promising to hear.

[Byrth]

In regards to the fact that it takes a bit of time to reach the cap of the enfeebling effects, there is a possibility of adjustments in the future; however, we’d first like everyone to try it out and we’ll be keeping an eye on the situation after it is implemented.

I hope that you guys respond to feedback on this, because I strongly suspect that most people won't see level 6+ dazes very often with the proposed system.


Additionally, in the future we will be making other adjustments to dancer and we are planning to increase their maximum dagger skill as well as other aspects to enhance their damage dealing capability.

While dancer is a job that possesses many talents, we will be making adjustments here on out that focus on the fact that they are indeed a damage dealing job.

This is very promising. I look forward to seeing how the job is adjusted and I very much like the tone here. On a slightly less positive note, I would like to register that +20 Attack/16 Acc (404->424 Dagger skill) would not really make a substantial difference at the moment (though it wouldn't hurt).


Finally, just as a note, when it comes to Contradance we do not have any plans to further enhance dancer as a healer role, and as such we will not be reducing the recast timer.

I believe this is also the correct choice. Dancer is (unfortunately) fatally flawed as a solo healer for the reasons listed in the OP. Fixing it would create a job that could keep a party alive while DDing from within AoE range. It would be too broken.

[Xsilver]

Perhaps allow DNC above a certain level to inflict multiple levels of Steps per Step use. Say DNC under level 90, when using a Step, will only inflict "Daze Level 1" per step use. At level 95 or 99, Dancers, when using Steps, will inflict a mob with a level 2 step each time they use a step, thus a DNC will be able to reach level 6 in only 3 Steps instead of 6. Basically a fulltime Presto, but without the extra Finishing Moves. Using Presto would give you a level 3 daze. Or allow high level DNC to inflict Level 2 Daze if it's the first Step used on a mob(mob currently has no dazes), so that would mean only needing to use steps 4 times to inflict lv6. Basically the idea is to be able to reach lv6 daze sooner without slowing down the DNC's auto attacks much since their abilities heavily rely on TP.

[Balloon]

Adjusting step potency by 20% every 10 levels from 50 gives the same result without the need to apply 10 steps. The need to apply 10 steps is really killing their debuffing potential, there's just no way it can be done that quickly on most fights. And the need to maintain.. It's not ideal.

[Karbuncle]

I'm okay with DNC getting A- Dagger skill these days, but I thought the Accuracy bonus job traits were there to supplement the lower skill compared to THF?

No complaints here but... yah know.. if ya wanna give THF accuracy bonus too then... I'd be okay with it.

[Byrth]

THF is for TH.

DNC is for . . . . tiaras?

[Ataraxia]

I would like to inform you all about future dancer adjustments that are being worked on.


In the September version update, we will be boosting dancer’s support capabilities when playing in parties and alliances by making adjustments to steps.

I think you can easily fix this by making it so that the first level of step is very strong and for each level after that is +1 / increase duration of steps.


The enfeebling effects of steps will not be resisted by monsters as long as you have the proper amount of accuracy, so they are easy to use on harder monsters, and they will become even stronger with effects from enfeebling magic and geomancy spells.

If it was a GEO with recent update i think they would prefer Geo-frailty, Geo-fury or Geo-haste.


In regards to the fact that it takes a bit of time to reach the cap of the enfeebling effects, there is a possibility of adjustments in the future; however, we’d first like everyone to try it out and we’ll be keeping an eye on the situation after it is implemented.

=) great news and I'm very please to hear about DNC future adjustment.


Additionally, in the future we will be making other adjustments to dancer and we are planning to increase their maximum dagger skill as well as other aspects to enhance their damage dealing capability.

A very interesting part of adjustment I hope you don't forget parry and evasion.


While dancer is a job that possesses many talents, we will be making adjustments here on out that focus on the fact that they are indeed a damage dealing job.

If DNC was to become a damage dealer which i do not mind at all. Does that mean restriction will be remove for Saber Dance and Fan Dance? in Fan Dance mode you can't use Samba but can heal and in Saber Dance you can become a DD but can't heal and your only allow to use Samba.

A long time ago when level 75 was Cap dagger + sword Joyeuse was popular among DNC dual wield. I have notice this for a long time now and I'm sure all those that play DNC notice this too because hand to hand and sword combat skill are rank D for DNC was there a reason for that?
The weapon Sagasinger DNC can use that and it glow but now with item level i do not see DNC in any of the item level sword. It be interesting to see if they have option to do Slashing damage as well but who knows only time will tell. If NM like Wopket didn't exist than piercing job will have a chance but that NM only favor Slashing job. Grekumah good post over all and we thank you for replying to us. =)

[Ataraxia]

Byrth great on mythic weapon Terpsichore it is every DNC dream. If DNC have future update like Grekumah said than just maybe every DNC will have a strong goal to make one of those Terpsichore.

[Byrth]

I would like to inform you all about future dancer adjustments that are being worked on.

In the September version update, we will be boosting dancer’s support capabilities when playing in parties and alliances by making adjustments to steps.

The enfeebling effects of steps will not be resisted by monsters as long as you have the proper amount of accuracy, so they are easy to use on harder monsters, and they will become even stronger with effects from enfeebling magic and geomancy spells.

In regards to the fact that it takes a bit of time to reach the cap of the enfeebling effects, there is a possibility of adjustments in the future; however, we’d first like everyone to try it out and we’ll be keeping an eye on the situation after it is implemented.

Additionally, in the future we will be making other adjustments to dancer and we are planning to increase their maximum dagger skill as well as other aspects to enhance their damage dealing capability.

While dancer is a job that possesses many talents, we will be making adjustments here on out that focus on the fact that they are indeed a damage dealing job.

Finally, just as a note, when it comes to Contradance we do not have any plans to further enhance dancer as a healer role, and as such we will not be reducing the recast timer.

Now that the patch has been out for a considerable time, I'd like to comment that I don't see Level 5+ dazes (or, really, 3+ dazes) very often. I think that you should reduce the maximum step level back to 5 and make steps more potent for DNC main (so it's the same potency, but faster).

[Darthmaull]

I have to disagree. I've been Using Dnc lately in High tier content and what I've noticed is that it's actually easy to get to ten on any Nm that you can't just kill within 1 min. The reason it's easy to get to ten and keep it there is because I use Dnc to DD and I don't worry about trying to heal anyone in my party. That's what the Whm is there for. The steps are crucial to keep me WSing and Skillchaining.