"THe Development Team Does Not Currently Have Plans Too..." [Archive]

Karbuncle

08-24-2014, 12:56 AM

The problem is that the way they respond, it makes it seem like our feedback means nothing (which honestly may be the case).

When we ask for changes or suggest changes, the only responses we ever get are usually:

"We are planning to do this!"

or

"There are no plans to do this."

Basically, our feedback means nothing. If whatever was asked/suggested was already in their plans, then yeah sure, they'll do it. But, if it wasn't, then it's not in their plans, and probably won't be because of server strain (or whatever reason, if we are even given a reason, which most of the time seems like a really bogus reason). The wording itself is flawed as well; it doesn't matter if there isn't plans to do it at the time you responded, the point of the suggestion/request/feedback is to ask them to make plans to do it, because that's the whole point of community feedback.

Pretty sure the JP side of things is heard more than us as well. The NA community team simply translates the posts made by the JP CM/devs to us and posts it in a relevant thread on the NA side. It makes me wonder about the BLU learning chance change, whether it was the JP side that brought it about or us.

Lately it's just been getting worse. Simple requests or logical requests are denied (well, not even denied, just "no plans") for the most absurd reasons (if we are even given a reason).

Personally, I'm just getting tired of the whole run around.

I've been saying this forever now... our suggestions are generally not considered... but, I don't blame them. If a gave dev listened to every suggestion, no matter how logical it may seem to us players, the game would be an unplayable mess because everyone is demanding something or another... thousands of "buff my job nerf others" threads, request for niche things like BLU Spell sets similar to equipment sets, and an undisclosed "DD" buff for BST cause BST is t3h sucks... I mean just look at all the suggestions on this forum, some you might think "This is logical" and others "Where'd they get their supply of crystal meth before writing that post?"... but if you ask another person to look at them, their reactions might be reversed.

At the end of the day, my biggest complaint about community feedback has been "if they dont have it in the works, its never happening" and "The only time our suggestions get implemented is out of pure coincidence that they were already working on it"... same as what you said. But again, like I said above... I hate that it has to be this way, but if it was any other way, the floodgates would open and every half brain who thinks giving BST Dual Wield VII and Berserk II as natural abilities or give SMN pets no BP Timer and double their HP or so on would come in and demand their job gets buffed because they listened to that other guys request.

I don't want to sound like im justifying all this, but I at least understand it.

Balloon

08-24-2014, 01:14 AM

Don't you think that's a slightly exaggerated claim, Karbuncle, people aren't asking for Dual Wield VII and Beserk II, or no blood pact timers. Despite the specificity in some of those posts they can distilled down to "these jobs are underutilized and need changing in some way."

The real problem I have with the posts isn't just that they're saying there's no plans, but they're incredibly dismissive. They give no outline as to why they have no plans. When they do, it's often confusing or patently false. For example.

"We have no intention of modifying automaton defense because they have already high defense compared to other pets. (False, Crabs have higher Defense than Valoredge and Wyverns have a base higher defense than all of the other frames). And you can buff their defense further with Protect and Shell (Incorrect, they cannot cast on themselves, nor can they be cast upon.)"

This kind of response makes me question the team they have got to communicate our feedback to the dev team. How often are they misrepresenting our arguments to the dev team due to lack of understanding. It also makes me question, if those responses have been given by the dev team, their level of understanding about the game.

With this style of response, there's probably some element of 'lost in translation.' It's probably not the community teams fault if they get 1-2 sentence responses, and going back and asking for clarification can be tiresome when they need to be translated back and fourth.

The second kind of response they give is too vague.

"We have no plans to do this, because that" or "The dev team say it's as fast as it can possibly be"

These kind of responses tend to just confuse the community, and in cases like this there needs to be a little more transparency into the deeper thoughts about why what is said would happen. One good example of this is by the Localization leader, who has in the past given some insight into how the translation process works, and in one example gave us a reason as to why the equipment description box was expanded upon. That level of transparency is refreshing.

The third kind of response is the most irksome, "We have no plans to do this at the minute." Which really brings into question whether they were even brought up. There is no reason or rationale being mentioned.

These forums, I feel, are necessary. Feedback needs to be given. Square enix are not infallible, and it's questionable whether or not the developers actually play the game in any real capacity. The feedback from these forums often relays information to them about how the game is being played, and many people on here have got a fairly good understanding of how things mechanically work.

Not all feedback is equal, but not all feedback should be treated equally either. Having a community team that play the game would be helpful, because they could then be able to distinguish which posts are terrible and which are accurate. It's really disappointing to see the newest community rep last played at 75.

Afania

08-24-2014, 03:06 AM

Dear Dev Team and Community Reps,
I feel like every other post that's not about an update begins with the lines, "The development team does not currently have plans too..." One thing you have to understand is that when you start every post like this it makes us the community feel like you're really not listening to us, although whether or not you are is tentative. I'd just like to make one request that instead of telling us what you're not implementing every time, tell us what you are implementing or at least give a real reason why the development team won't even consider it. Every time we get a reason one or two posts down there's someone that points out the giant hole in their logic and it's never addressed.
Sincerely,
Xerius

P.S. I know this seams a bit ranty but I do truly appreciate your guys hard work and a lot of the Quality of Life updates have been amazing. It can just be a little disheartening to watch a lot of good ideas just get blatantly shot right down.

I kinda want to start 5 "please give me X" topic everyday just to see dev reply all of them.

"Please deliver 20 mythics to my inbox ty"

"Please give me alliance content so I can play with my LS ty"

"Please create a new lving mechanic to lv a job to lv 99 so I can lv all 22 jobs faster ty"

"Please make blue mage OP so I don't have to lv SAM ty"

"Please give us lower the cost of HP bayld to 100 bayld each so I can finish ergon weapon ty"

"Please double the amount of currency gain so I can finish 16 relics faster ty"

"Please give me a moogle pet that can one shot every NM in this game ty"

"Please increase the drop rate of dring to 100% so I can get a dring ty"

"Please make RDM melee OP ty"

Waiting for dev to replay all of the quests above :)

-----------------------
On a serious note, half of the requests on the forum are either "I want this" requests that only benefits small percent of population(like that double ichor campaign, really?), or requests that requires more discussion to make it better. It's silly to expect dev to have positive response to all of them.

Afania

08-24-2014, 03:35 AM

Balloon

08-24-2014, 03:59 AM

Do you really think dev needs to tell the community why they aren't doing double ichor/nyzul token campaign?

If I ask the dev to hand me 20 mythics for free and dev say no, do you expect a proper reason behind it?

Not all feedback is equal, but not all feedback should be treated equally either. Having a community team that play the game would be helpful, because they could then be able to distinguish which posts are terrible and which are accurate. It's really disappointing to see the newest community rep last played at 75.

Not all feedback is equal, and I'd be really annoyed if they responded to any of those example posts you listed.

I'm not advocating a response for everything, but more informed feedback on the ones they do decide to respond to would be nice.

Asking for a buff for certain underutilized jobs is not the same as personally asking for 20 mythics. Even asking for double Ichor campaigns is not the same as asking for 20 mythics. I agree that that request wasn't exactly reasonable. Posting to say they have no plans to do that though? Those posts are pointless on their part; people asked because there's no plans. No response means no plans to do anything. Their responses are just getting comical, because a good deal of them are just pointless reminders that they 'have no plans.'

Afania

08-24-2014, 04:21 AM

Not all feedback is equal, but I'd be really annoyed if they responded to any of those example posts you listed.

I'm not advocating a response for everything, but more informed feedback on the ones they do decide to respond to would be nice.

Asking for a buff for certain underutilized jobs is not the same as personally asking for 20 mythics. Even asking for double Ichor campaigns is not the same as asking for 20 mythics. I agree that that request wasn't exactly reasonable. Posting to say they have no plans to do that though? Those posts are pointless on their part; people asked because there's no plans. No response means no plans to do anything. Their responses are just getting comical, because a good deal of them are just pointless reminders that they aren't doing something.

Asking for double ichor is equal to "Please help me finish Mythic faster". How is it not equal to asking for 20 mythics? It doesn't help making the game better, it only gives certain player(minority, mind you) instant gratification. IMO it doesn't require a reason to deny the request, nor even a proper reply.

Asking for a buff for certain jobs is better request than "please help me finish mythic faster", but half of the ideas on the forum are either bad(like asking every DD job do equal dmg) or won't solve the issue completely(like asking BST PUP to be 10% behind SAM, you know ppl still gonna invite SAM like that right?).

Further more, I know that dev have been busy trying to adjust the job balance for months, most of the jobs, like GEO COR BLU all got a pretty good buff for past 3 months. Dev also replied about WAR DRG buff or something. IMO it's too impatient to expect a reply NOW when they may need time to finalize a proper solution that's better than making every jobs equal dmg.

Atm this game is running out of content, I'd rather see the dev create content faster for everyone than fulfilling Mythic builder's instant gratification. I don't understand why ppl are pissed for dev not giving a legit reason for "please help me build mythic faster" request.

Balloon

08-24-2014, 04:33 AM

Asking for double ichor is equal to "Please help me finish Mythic faster". How is it not equal to asking for 20 mythics? It doesn't help making the game better, it only gives certain player(minority, mind you) instant gratification. IMO it doesn't require a reason to deny the request, nor even a proper reply.

Asking for a buff for certain jobs is better request than "please help me finish mythic faster", but half of the ideas on the forum are either bad(like asking every DD job do equal dmg) or won't solve the issue completely(like asking BST PUP to be 10% behind SAM, you know ppl still gonna invite SAM like that right?).

Further more, I know that dev have been busy trying to adjust the job balance for months, most of the jobs, like GEO COR BLU all got a pretty good buff for past 3 months. Dev also replied about WAR DRG buff or something. IMO it's too impatient to expect a reply NOW when they may need time to finalize a proper solution that's better than making every jobs equal dmg.

Atm this game is running out of content, I'd rather see the dev create content faster for everyone than fulfilling Mythic builder's instant gratification.

I already said it was a bad idea Afania, so I don't know why you're pushing that point. My point was that if they're saying there's no plans why even bother posting it? We know there's no plans. It just makes people angry at their non-response. If they were to post "We have no plans because we feel the difficulty in obtaining these mythics is balanced correctly, and to double the ichor would imbalance the difficulty of obtaining one. People are free to disagree with that, but then at least we have more of an idea about why.
It's not the same as asking for 20 mythics. It's a strawman. Easing requirements and asking to straight up get given something are different. I agree with your overall point, it's a bad idea. There's no need to exaggerate the argument to argue that though.

I'm not getting into the same argument we have had for 19 pages on another thread. You already know the reason I want PUP and BST to be buffed to be better is so I can setup parties with me on those jobs. I've outlined it 20 times. It's not the discussion we're having.
My point is if they were to say "There's no plans to buff X job at the moment" I'd want a little more of an explanation as to why they think it's in a good spot and don't need one. I also applaud their ability to buff certain jobs, the BLU buff was described by the community quite a few times, and a less cynical version of myself would like to think the devs paid attention to that feedback and implemented something similar.

I also agree that if they don't have concrete plans they shouldn't post anything. Them saying we have no plans to do something sounds like a pretty concrete no.

These forums were created to give feedback, and I think people are just expressing how all their feedback isn't being taken seriously. Some don't deserve to be taken seriously, but some do.
Treating us like we're idiots by not indulging their rationale behind their decisions isn't helping. It makes it sound like there wasn't a single bit of consideration put into something.

Edit: altered the wording, grammar, clarified some points.

Karbuncle

08-24-2014, 04:47 AM

Don't you think that's a slightly exaggerated claim, Karbuncle, people aren't asking for Dual Wield VII and Beserk II, or no blood pact timers. Despite the specificity in some of those posts they can distilled down to "these jobs are underutilized and need changing in some way."

For every reasonable request, there will be more than a handful of unreasonable ones, by one person or anothers standard. Do you want to be the man whos hired to sift through the oceans of "baaawwwwwww my job sucks" to find the few suggestions that aren't over the top or "give my job more damages"?

right now, the FFXI official forums aren't super bad, but just... just dig around, you'll find some of the request I've spoken of. They only ceased a small bit lately because of all the "No plans" and essentially over time people stopped trying. if suddenly SE were to start making plans based off our feedback, do you honestly believe there wouldn't be a flood of stupid request coming in daily?

Yes, Not all feedback is the same, I thought I adequately described that... but I know that some suggestions here are good, others not so good... I was trying to express "who is the judge of what is good and reasonable and whats not?" You would think us or the devs right? well some of "us" might think Dual Wield IV/V to BST would be "Reasonable" since they're "DD", where as some of us would think "You're crazy, not its not". Theres 20+ Pages of argument over which DD jobs need more buffs.

Reason and logic might be a companion of yours, but if you looked around, you would see its not a friend of everyone, and if SE opened the floodgates, the stupidity of suggestions would rise, and no one wants to be the guy who has to sift through the unreasonable to find the reasonable. Put it another way, they suddenly say "Yeah, Pets can now be effected by party buffs!" its yay, they listened, how awesome right? Now everyone and their mom comes out the woodworks saying "Pet jobs got buffs! Why isn't RDM getting Breakga VI?" (Hint: Yes I'm exaggerating only because my mind isn't warped enough to imagine the stupidity that will come from this)... and when SE has to go "Sorry thats crazy we have no plans for that"... what then? The good of them listening to the pet job buffs is drowned in an ocean of idiot requests being denied and people go back to "SE never listens".

So i must reiterate for emphasis.

I don't want to sound like im justifying all this, but I at least understand it.

They should listen to some of these, most of us agree on that, But i have been witness to the ocean of bawww that can come from the slightest sign of listening (Hint: Changing Bully, readjusting BLU merit categories), and go to those threads, those responses, and I guarantee you within a few posts will be someone saying "Hey, you changed that, thanks! maybe you can go change this now *shameless link to thread*" or "Oh, so you guys changed that but not this?".

You know its true. I know SE has given us things in the past that has at least been partially influenced by our feedback, and they will continue to in the future... its just their good deeds are, as proof here, lost in an ocean of nos.

I hope SE does start listening and taking in feedback instead of insisting they know how to do everything by themselves... I really do.

Vold

08-24-2014, 04:50 AM

Pretty much would say the same as everyone else has, so hmmm something different....

Here goes nothing: SE's NA community team or SE devs themselves whoever it is that insist on the standard answer they give us, need to realize that we are providing feedback and suggestions and desires. It's not technically proper to answer us with, "We don't have plans for this" We didn't ask if you were working on it or had plans or whatever. We were suggesting it. Giving you feedback. Even if you word it as "asking for it" which I guess is accurate, it is still not proper to shoot us down with the "no plans" card. If something can't be done well then that's cool, you tell us as much. But on everything else... that "no plans" card that is essentially a "get out of work free" card is growing stale for a playerbase that still pays the same price to log in that they paid 12 years ago.

I'm not going to get into the debate over bad requests etc others have in this thread. I speak entirely about the good quality requests/suggestions that almost always gets shot down because the devs don't want to do it. I don't particularly blame the FFXI team because they only have what they have to work with via the higher ups, and in some cases stuff has been implemented anyway just because of the years that have passed and they finally found some time to do it. But it's still frustrating to see ideas go to waste because it's too much work. I mean at least put it on the todo list, even if it continuously falls down the list year after year like SMN avatar additions >.>

Balloon

08-24-2014, 04:59 AM

Long post.

Nah, I know there'd be crazy, there often is - I did read your post, and sorry for the knee jerk reaction. Hell, I think the initial tone of that "NERF SAM!" thread was already erring on the side of crazy.

As I put in the last couple of posts I put, I don't think all feedback deserves responses, but when they do respond they should be giving us more information. I'd reiterate that having a more informed Community Team would be a great boon for these forums, because having a 75 BLU who played.. what.. over 4 years ago isn't helpful (release of 75->80). They can't distinguish the crazy from the rational. For instance, I think if you were to send that 21+ page thread to the dev team I'd hope they'd not send any of the specifics, and instead send "these jobs are underutilized and need changing in some way. Some people think they need damage buffs, others think that content should be released that prioritizes those classes. Other people in the thread feel that SAM is a little overpowered." and not "Afania said this, Balloon said that."

Karbuncle

08-24-2014, 06:28 AM

Nah, I know there'd be crazy, there often is - I did read your post, and sorry for the knee jerk reaction. Hell, I think the initial tone of that "NERF SAM!" thread was already erring on the side of crazy.

As I put in the last couple of posts I put, I don't think all feedback deserves responses, but when they do respond they should be giving us more information. I'd reiterate that having a more informed Community Team would be a great boon for these forums, because having a 75 BLU who played.. what.. over 4 years ago isn't helpful (release of 75->80). They can't distinguish the crazy from the rational. For instance, I think if you were to send that 21+ page thread to the dev team I'd hope they'd not send any of the specifics, and instead send "these jobs are underutilized and need changing in some way. Some people think they need damage buffs, others think that content should be released that prioritizes those classes. Other people in the thread feel that SAM is a little overpowered." and not "Afania said this, Balloon said that."

I'm hoping the dev team is at least aware there are a handful of jobs right now that are next to useless, and some that are pretty blatantly useless in endgame.

Stompa

08-24-2014, 06:30 AM

I think the Dev team responses have been friendly, helpful and professional. The updates with QOL have been frequent and useful, I especially love the /lockstyle and home-point nexus systems.

I compare this with the first decade of FFXI when changes were infrequent and QOL wasn't even an issue, the game was how it was and you just had to suck up and like it, in silence with no platform to voice your displeasure. Now they have given us this platform to say what we think, and they do read most of it and respond, and sometimes act on things.

I still hope they will make HMP & riftcinders a more consistent drop rate under maxed alliance proc lights, or make a way for solo slowmode progress on these items. And of course to add clothcraft/goldsmithing recipes for automaton clothing, to make automatons look more stylish and individual. I hope for all these things but I don't expect to get listened to.

Balloon

08-24-2014, 06:57 AM

I'm hoping the dev team is at least aware there are a handful of jobs right now that are next to useless, and some that are pretty blatantly useless in endgame.

They've mentioned a few in the past in what was a promising little teaser. Summoner getting some new BPs, PUP BST DRG getting some pet buffs and Warrior getting something unique.

Their updates as of late have mostly been HUGE buffs to things, GEO for instance saw a phenomenal increase.. I don't know how the BLU changes affected the meta, but they were at least on point. The weaponskill updates were potent, even if they changed very little about what we use. So there's some hope those updates will be good.

I just want responses likethis (ffxiv) (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/183545-A-Random-Comment) and this(localization) (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/43367-Convoker-s-Pigaches-Convoker-s-Pigaches-1-Summoner-Gear?p=517330&viewfull=1#post517330) to be more frequent. I actually hang around Localization a lot now. Unelonborro is fantastic.

Xerius

08-24-2014, 08:55 AM

Karbuncle

08-24-2014, 09:16 AM

Just for the record because I think a lot of people are getting confused. I'm not saying the development team that they need to bend to the player bases every whim, I'm actually rather pleased with the new dev team, what I am asking is, what is the point of saying that they don't have plans for something. If they don't have plans then don't comment at all. I think we can all agree that what they do have plans to do is way more interesting than them telling us what they aren't going to do.

Not that I disagree with you Xer, but you can look around and see the amount of people who go "WHY AINT THE DEVS RESPONDED TO (topic)?!" A lot of people have requested them at least telling us no rather than leaving us guessing... what determines which thread gets "No'd" is a mystery though.

Lithera

08-24-2014, 12:13 PM

Even when they do give us a yes or using the warp scroll thread as an example where we got an ok here take this and now go away kind of thing, the responses we get can make no sense to us players. I do agree the we have no plans at this time responses depending on the whole response could use some more info. Like are we geting this later this year or can we wait til next year to rebring it up. Or the no responses that only is a reply to a small part of the OP but ignore the rest and that rest never gets responded to. It's like don't leave us hanging.

FrankReynolds

08-24-2014, 03:09 PM

Afania

08-24-2014, 03:37 PM

For what it's worth, the reason the double ichor campaign only benefits an incredibly small percentage of the play base is because getting ichor sucks. People don't build those items that require it frequently because the requirements suck. Easing said requirements would cause more people to do it and thus increase the number of people that benefit. just sayin.

Getting ichor sucks because mythic is supposed to take a long time to obtain. Also, if someone decided not to build a mythic, a short time double ichor campaign isn't going to change their mind, therefore it still won't benefit them.

Mythic is a long term goal and it should stay that way. Mythic building process already got A LOT faster in the past 3 years, idk why you want mythic to be even faster than it is now.

Atm Mythic is probably the only content/goal that has the ability to accomplish what a MMO supposed to accomplish, which is to keep players busy for more than 5 months.

FrankReynolds

08-24-2014, 04:13 PM

Getting ichor sucks because mythic is supposed to take a long time to obtain. Also, if someone decided not to build a mythic, a short time double ichor campaign isn't going to change their mind, therefore it still won't benefit them.

Mythic is a long term goal and it should stay that way. Mythic building process already got A LOT faster in the past 3 years, idk why you want mythic to be even faster than it is now.

Atm Mythic is probably the only content/goal that has the ability to accomplish what a MMO supposed to accomplish, which is to keep players busy for more than 5 months.

Says the person who doesn't want to build one. By your definition, an MMO is supposed to be something you don't want to play. How hard do you think it actually is to program double drops. For all intents and purposes, it should be a matter of changing one value on a handful of mobs.

Afania

08-24-2014, 08:58 PM

Says the person who doesn't want to build one. By your definition, an MMO is supposed to be something you don't want to play. How hard do you think it actually is to program double drops. For all intents and purposes, it should be a matter of changing one value on a handful of mobs.

I'm not sure how'd you turn "Long term goal is supposed to take a lot of time to grind thus it sucks" into "MMO is supposed to be something you don't want to play".

By your logic not a single person on every server would own a mythic. Please don't pretend everyone has the same POV as you.

Camiie

08-24-2014, 10:21 PM

I'm hoping the dev team is at least aware there are a handful of jobs right now that are next to useless, and some that are pretty blatantly useless in endgame.

I don't think they can truly understand it unless they play the game at max level on a live server with the community at large. It's one thing to hear about it from a bunch of strangers on a forum or a few underlings in the company who likely feel they need to whitewash the truth to keep their jobs. It's another thing entirely to experience it yourself, and that experience is what they lack. If they had to suffer it themselves they'd be far more inclined to fix it.

Afania

08-24-2014, 10:36 PM

How hard do you think it actually is to program double drops. For all intents and purposes, it should be a matter of changing one value on a handful of mobs.

You know how a company work right? Every decision they make in a AAA game company often require quite a long process to get it done. It's not something like "Hey, go code a double ichor campaign from Aug 28~Aug 31! Let me know when you're done" then it's done in 5 min.

Man hours. The time they report the suggestion, start a meeting to discuss the double campaign, and possibly multiple meetings, change the code for double drop in game, do necessary paper work for all of the above can take a while....you know, the time and resource they could spend on something else.

WoW

08-25-2014, 05:12 AM

Says the person who doesn't want to build one. By your definition, an MMO is supposed to be something you don't want to play. How hard do you think it actually is to program double drops. For all intents and purposes, it should be a matter of changing one value on a handful of mobs.

L
O
L

I agree;

But as it pertains to the development team; idk ya'll.......
There has been a plethora of "We do not have plans to" lately. In a way, I tend to expect that answer more-so than anything else. "Shrugs"

Aeron

08-25-2014, 07:08 AM

L
O
L

I agree;

But as it pertains to the development team; idk ya'll.......
There has been a plethora of "We do not have plans to" lately. In a way, I tend to expect that answer more-so than anything else. "Shrugs"

I'm not sure I understand what you guys are even talking about because Afania built a DP.

WoW

08-25-2014, 09:30 AM

I'm not sure I understand what you guys are even talking about because Afania built a DP.

I am inclined to believe that there are more casual gamers than "grinders" SE may acknowledge that, hence the various changes made to XI aka "It is easier now." Recent MMOs appeared to be geared towards these players as-well, not to say there is no form of grinding involved. XIV was causal friendly when I played. Frank has a valid point; most of the ppl i knew quit before making a mythic, perhaps they did not bother due to the requirements. Imo, easing the requirements may encourage more ppl to not only make a mythic, but perhaps, join/rejoin XI. For instance, the number of relics soared after the dyna update/lvl99 cap. Some friends also returned as-well. Nearly everyone has a relic of some sort (No clue what weapons she/he has; if he/she does have a DP, good for him/her; i just like Frank's humor. Easier requires, equates to more mythics; more ppl have relics than mythics. There may be more annihilators than mythics combined).

Aeron

08-25-2014, 10:08 AM

WoW

08-25-2014, 12:07 PM

What he said made absolutely no sense though because Afania has gone through the requirements of building a mythic. For someone who has made a mythic to say that don't want to make another one(if that's even what they said) how does that some how give credence to the argument that the requirements should be lessened?

Perhaps you are on the opposing side of the argument?

I believe Frank was implying that easing the prerequisites would equate to more ppl whom would play to build a mythic, hence more mythics.

He/she is only one person; gratz on the DP, but that does not mean more ppl are willing to make a mythic (Which is my main point).

I cannot convince you to see my side of this topic, that is all on you blood (Again, perhaps you are on the opposing side of this). However, what you are saying has nothing to do with my previous post. My post had more to do with trends as opposed to one person. I agreed with frank's point as it pertains to players not wanting to make a mythic aka, something ppl do not want to play for. This appears to be the age of the causal gamer, and SE knows this; which is why XI was made more accessible to new players. Most posters recommend delve, emp, or relics to potential new bloods looking to take up XI (Or returning players).

Mythics appear to be grindy; something ppl have no interest in (Otherwise there would be more mythics; keep in mind these are ooooold weapons). I was observing trends over the past few years, etc.

I believe His/her point was, mythic requirements should not be eased. However, if it was, more ppl would have interest in playing for one (See dyna nerf/relics). Mythics appear to be something the majority have no interest in playing for.

FrankReynolds

08-25-2014, 02:23 PM

Afania

08-25-2014, 11:27 PM

I am inclined to believe that there are more casual gamers than "grinders" SE may acknowledge that, hence the various changes made to XI aka "It is easier now." Recent MMOs appeared to be geared towards these players as-well, not to say there is no form of grinding involved. XIV was causal friendly when I played. Frank has a valid point; most of the ppl i knew quit before making a mythic, perhaps they did not bother due to the requirements. Imo, easing the requirements may encourage more ppl to not only make a mythic, but perhaps, join/rejoin XI. For instance, the number of relics soared after the dyna update/lvl99 cap. Some friends also returned as-well. Nearly everyone has a relic of some sort (No clue what weapons she/he has; if he/she does have a DP, good for him/her; i just like Frank's humor. Easier requires, equates to more mythics; more ppl have relics than mythics. There may be more annihilators than mythics combined).

FFXIV kept hardcore players around via weekly lock out mechanics, FFXI doesn't have any of those mechnics to keep those players around. It isn't fair to compare XI v.s XIV. Further more, recently XIV move more toward long term goal. Novus weapon takes slightly more grind than ilv 90 era.

Making top tier gear easier to require isn't always a good thing. Remember how RME became a requirement because most ppl have it.

I don't think myself owning a mythic is relevant in this discussion. I'd still have same POV toward long term goal even if I have no mythic, I also support long term goal in any other MMO title even if I choose not to accomplish that goal.

I'm a firm believer that MMO needs grind OR weekly lockout like XIV to keep hardcore players around, based on research data and actual experience.....MMO isn't something you can beat after 100hr of playing, it's not supposed to be. But someone WILL play more than that and ended up quitting, only time sink can keep them around. None hardcore players may choose not to grind a mythic because it's too much work, but that's usually not the main reason why they choose not to play the game unless they absolutely run out of everything else to do.

Mythic is there to keep hardcore players around, otherwise they'd finish everything and leave.

Just ask ANY of your none friend that's quitting or about to quit, what is their reason.

Most of the time they'd answer:

1) My friends/ls all quit. /shout takes forever.

2) The game getting boring. (More hardcore would ans this)

3) I'm running out of goals in this game. (More hardcore would ans this)

4) No time to play, new job new family....P.S, No time to play means no time to do event with ls/friends, not "no time to build a mythic"

When is the last time you see someone telling you "I wanna quit cuz I don't want to build a mythic"?

IMO, Mythic is just a bonus accomplishment you can do in this game for ppl with too much time, it shouldn't be EVERYTHING this game is about, SE should focus on making more content to keep more players stay, instead of making a bonus accomplishment available to everyone so more ppl run out of things to do and quit.

tl;dr
Adjusting mythic so it's no longer a tool to keep the hardcore players around is a bad decision.

Saying that casuals quit FFXI because mythic took too much time is beyond lol.

We have one person in this thread kept saying X isn't worth the time and such every time....you know who, apparently he's still active and enjoying his game.

I believe His/her point was, mythic requirements should not be eased. However, if it was, more ppl would have interest in playing for one (See dyna nerf/relics). Mythics appear to be something the majority have no interest in playing for.

This makes 0 sense at all, I'm not convinced that most ppl would pay 12$ a month to build a weapon in a MMO. The purpose of mythic is to keep ppl with too much time(hardcore) busy, not to make majority of player pay $12 a month just to grind them. By making it easier to obtain, those with too much time(hardcore) would just finish it faster and quit.

Afania

08-25-2014, 11:38 PM

I wasn't saying that they should or shouldn't be easier. I was merely pointing out that if they were easier, then more people would do them. Which goes against the argument of "They shouldn't waste time on campaigns for them because nobody does them anyways". I was under the impression that the point of these campaigns was to get people doing things they normally don't do anymore.

I was also pointing out that she strangely said making a mythic is exactly how an MMO should be.... and that making a mythic sucks. In other words an MMO should suck.

MMO is all about grinding, which MMO that isn't pay2win doesn't require grind? If you think grinding is bad, then you may as well don't play MMO.

The point of Mythic(or long term goal) is to keep hardcore players busy so they wouldn't quit fast. By making them faster to obtain they'd just quit faster. It doesn't matter if more none hardcore ended up building one, it'd still lose it's purpose to keep the hardcore busy.

If SE seriously care about the majority, the best way is to make more content or create more interesting job/game mechanics, which benefits everyone. Ditching the content that everyone can enjoy while killing the long term goal for hardcore is just silly.

Aeron

08-25-2014, 11:45 PM

Afania

08-25-2014, 11:52 PM

Ok the mythic is the mechanic to occupy the time of the hardcore grindy players. The ease of those requirements would drive those said players away from the game. You guys are right though more ppl would make mythics though and I really don't have a problem with that. I do agree that maybe it is time to lessen the requirements on mythics but if SE is going to do that they need to introduce a mechanic to replace it. The problem with that however is that the hardcore players will finish the requirements as usual. The casual players will complain on the forums about how they are lock out of said requirements or how they are too hard and the cycle will continue.

I have a problem with mythic being a requirement to join PUG, so no thanks.(And yes I do have other jobs that does not have a mythic, I'd like to play them as well)

The fact that mythic being a mechanic to occupy the hardcore player's time means easing the requirement would destroy the mechanic as well.

Aeron

08-26-2014, 12:14 AM

In no way do I agree either that a mythic should be a requirement to join a standard PUG, if however that PUG is shouting for specific gear for say VD content then yes that perfectly reasonable.

FrankReynolds

08-26-2014, 01:38 AM

MMO is all about grinding, which MMO that isn't pay2win doesn't require grind? If you think grinding is bad, then you may as well don't play MMO.

The point of Mythic(or long term goal) is to keep hardcore players busy so they wouldn't quit fast. By making them faster to obtain they'd just quit faster. It doesn't matter if more none hardcore ended up building one, it'd still lose it's purpose to keep the hardcore busy.

Don't worry. They can still spend the rest of their lives getting afterglow.

If SE seriously care about the majority, the best way is to make more content or create more interesting job/game mechanics, which benefits everyone. Ditching the content that everyone can enjoy while killing the long term goal for hardcore is just silly.

You are ignoring the fact that mythics already exist. There is minimal effort required to change to quest requirements and or drop rates. This isn't an either or case. They change drop rates all the time without having to delay new content over it.

This world where they have to ignore everything else for the foreseeable future in order to make 2 alex purses drop instead of one does not exist.

Who knows, maybe they can build some new weapon that takes 10 years to create because that one guy who can do it might quit if they don't.

Rubicant82

08-26-2014, 01:58 AM

Three adjustments to the Mythic quest that would make everyone who wants one/already has one happy to make a second:
#1 Remove the req to do assaults AGAIN i.e. You did all 50 (plus nyzul to floor 100 for your disk) once to get captain. The requirement to do the 50 assaults over AGAIN is absolutely ridiculous (I say as I am 34/50 on round 2). Making it so you only had to do them the one time for the quest while leaving the req for Nyzul Tokens (150,000) & Ichor (100,000) the same would still make people who want to make a mythic rejoice.
#2 Remove Lamps from Nyzul Isle (For the love of god PLEASE remove them, or just leave the code one) as many people are trying to solo Nyzul it is a total kick in the balls when yea get a order or same time lamp floor that has 4~6 lamps.
#3 Make Einjhar a flat 30m battle field for all sizes of groups/or increase Ichor yields by 50%~75% so a t3 gives 4k ish ichor

The 30k Alex is nothing at this point. Alex prices on Carby and plummeting to ~6k ea while Dyna currency is staying relatively stable at 5k/6k/7k Byne/Shells/Bronze. So it is just a matter of picking your poison as far as farming Salvage II or farming dyna & selling currency to buy Alex.

WoW

08-26-2014, 02:00 AM

Yea Aeron; that is all i was saying basically, an ease of requirements would equate to more willing ppl.

Making a REM occupies time; heck, some LS were strictly dedicated to building emps during the abyssea era^^ In a way; the majority of their playtime was focused on helping members build emps. I was in a few of those shells and emps were like an everyday/night kind of thing. Most people spend a majority of their time building a endgame weapon, I mean, the funds have to come from somewhere, right? Some may use dyna currency to fund mythics or spend days or weeks shouting/selling delve win runs. in essence; the majority of their playtime may carter to building a mythic. Salvage, NI, einherjar, funding, etc; that is alot of playtime dedicated to a weapon. If you built a REM, in essence, you payed to play for it among other activities. More players would make a mythic if requirements were eased, even new players would return to do something they never accomplished. The chance of owning a mythic may inspire ppl to play. Some players have an affinity towards REM as they do certain jobs. I only payed to play my bst or ninja; why when there are a ton of other jobs? Well, those are just the jobs I like^^ I can only speak for myself, but if the requirements were eased, i may return, just to play with a mythic. A mythic unlocks new-found powers to certain jobs, hence it may inspire me to try jobs other than nin or bst (Can afford one, but the other requirements are pretty "Eh")

Weapons mean everything; look at the shouts, REM have become a requirement of sorts. So yes, you pay to play for a REM, otherwise, those shouts to play content would not include specific weapon types. Some may not be interested in XI without the ultimate weapons. You see the $hit storm that new brd instrument caused, REM owners truly value these weapons. They payed to play for it so they will have an edge; not to mention they are shouted for in endgame events.

Afania

08-26-2014, 02:26 AM

In no way do I agree either that a mythic should be a requirement to join a standard PUG, if however that PUG is shouting for specific gear for say VD content then yes that perfectly reasonable.

If every SAM from PUG owns a Koga, then it'd be a requirement/standard to PUG.

Don't worry. They can still spend the rest of their lives getting afterglow.

You are ignoring the fact that mythics already exist. There is minimal effort required to change to quest requirements and or drop rates. This isn't an either or case. They change drop rates all the

So afterglow sucks but you think it's ok, mythic sucks but you think it's not ok? Double standard.

You're also ignoring the fact that making mythics easier to obtain doesn't extend the life of this game, while it still needs time to adjust. Whoever's currently building one(the ones that's done with every other goals in this game) would just finish one sooner and quit. Whoever that's not hardcore enough to run out of things to do still get stuff to do regardless mythic being easy or not.

Afania

08-26-2014, 02:33 AM

Yea Aeron; that is all i was saying basically, an ease of requirements would equate to more willing ppl.

Making a REM occupies time; heck, some LS were strictly dedicated to building emps during the abyssea era^^ In a way; the majority of their playtime was focused on helping members build emps. I was in a few of those shells and emps were like an everyday/night kind of thing. Most people spend a majority of their time building a endgame weapon, I mean, the funds have to come from somewhere, right? Some may use dyna currency to fund mythics or spend days or weeks shouting/selling delve win runs. in essence; the majority of their playtime may carter to building a mythic. Salvage, NI, einherjar, funding, etc; that is alot of playtime dedicated to a weapon. If you built a REM, in essence, you payed to play for it among other activities. More players would make a mythic if requirements were eased, even new players would return to do something they never accomplished. The chance of owning a mythic may inspire ppl to play. Some players have an affinity towards REM as they do certain jobs. I only payed to play my bst or ninja; why when there are a ton of other jobs? Well, those are just the jobs I like^^ I can only speak for myself, but if the requirements were eased, i may return, just to play with a mythic. A mythic unlocks new-found powers to certain jobs, hence it may inspire me to try jobs other than nin or bst (Can afford one, but the other requirements are pretty "Eh")

Weapons mean everything; look at the shouts, REM have become a requirement of sorts. So yes, you pay to play for a REM, otherwise, those shouts to play content would not include specific weapon types. Some may not be interested in XI without the ultimate weapons. You see the $hit storm that new brd instrument caused, REM owners truly value these weapons. They payed to play for it some they will have an edge; not to mention they are shouted for in endgame events.

Nah, I think the current mythic requirement is just fine. If you want easier/cheaper RME build a relic. If you want even easier/cheaper weapon use delve weapon. Can't have mythic being equally time consuming as relic or other 119.

WoW

08-26-2014, 02:38 AM

Don't worry. They can still spend the rest of their lives getting afterglow.

You are ignoring the fact that mythics already exist. There is minimal effort required to change to quest requirements and or drop rates. This isn't an either or case. They change drop rates all the time without having to delay new content over it.

This world where they have to ignore everything else for the foreseeable future in order to make 2 alex purses drop instead of one does not exist.

Who knows, maybe they can build some new weapon that takes 10 years to create because that one guy who can do it might quit if they don't.

Don't even bother, lol.

I know what Afania is all about from past threads, hence I do not bother responding to him/her anymore, lol.

Olor

08-26-2014, 02:42 AM

Rubicant82

08-26-2014, 02:43 AM

REM esp Mythic & Empyrean weapons are very very very time consuming, and also $$$ to make.
Relics.... well with the way things are you can easily farm 300~400 currency a day in dream land dyna, which with selling/buying/trading with other players you can have a relic built in less than a month. Then it is just more of the same to get the money for Marrows, and the plutons and boom you have an awesome 119 weapon which is the first step in becoming a "master" of your job.
Mythic have a baseline from scratch of at least 130 days. The limiting factor being the 1 tag per day you get for Assault/Nyzul. Start at 0 assaults done that is 51 days to get captain and another 50 days to do them all over again. If you can climb nyzul at an average of 15 floors a run that is at least an additional 6 tags as long as you did at least 15 floors the first time you did it for Captain. Now lets say you averaged 5k tokens each run of Nyzul so for the 150 tokens you need to run Nyzul a total of 30 times sense you have ran it 7 times already that leaves an additional 23 time.
While you are running assaults you also need to fun Einhjar at least 53 time if you spam t3 netting just shy of 2k ichor yea need 100k, plus farm Zeni and acquire the three t4 items needed for PW (but you don't actually turn them in for PW you keep them for the mythic weapon fight), and you will need to do all four salvage remnants, beat Odin, kill the beastmen leaders, oh yea and get that 30,000 alexandrite. So really for the first Mythic 130 days is very conservative and if anyone ever did it in that amount of time I would tip my hat to them for sure. Now to 99 that mythic you have to do a T4 ZNM x5 plus PW at least twice (three times if unlucky). So factor all that in to that single weapon. It is no surprise almost everyone I know of that has made a mythic has take a long break immediately after lol

Empys = lots of farming & lots of money for HMPs due to their horrid drop rate, and needing 1500 of them which is about 1250 more then what it should be imo.

FrankReynolds

08-26-2014, 02:54 AM

If every SAM from PUG owns a Koga, then it'd be a requirement/standard to PUG.

If they started giving out kogas for a million gil tomorrow, people would still take a JSE or Tsurumaru sam to w/e content without batting an eye as long as the rest of their gear was up to par.

So afterglow sucks but you think it's ok, mythic sucks but you think it's not ok? Double standard.

Not really. But you said you wanted something dumb to waste a few billion gil on.

You're also ignoring the fact that making mythics easier to obtain doesn't extend the life of this game, while it still needs time to adjust. Whoever's currently building one(the ones that's done with every other goals in this game) would just finish one sooner and quit. Whoever that's not hardcore enough to run out of things to do still get stuff to do regardless mythic being easy or not.

I have a bunch of mythic owners and multiple mythic owners in my shell. I don't know anyone who would quit if they could have more. For every guy who says he would quit if his mugeleis were too easy to obtain, there's another 10 guys who say they would build 5 more if it didn't suck so much.

Aeron

08-26-2014, 04:11 AM

If every SAM had a koga we wouldn't be having a discussion about mythic requirements would we?

detlef

08-26-2014, 04:52 AM

Frankly it would be better for everyone if mythics were less ridiculous to get. I still wouldn't get one, but if it even increased the number of people getting them by 5% it would invigorate Alex market. You can tell very few people are building them because the cost of Alex is so low.This is so untrue. Tons and tons of people are making Mythics now. Do you see how many people shout for Einherjar on a daily basis compared to before? The reason you see so much alex is because many, many people farm Salvage for gil.

Rubicant82

08-26-2014, 04:54 AM

I have at least 3 more Mythics to build after I am done with the one I am working on now (25 days and counting, come on assault tags!!!), and if they were easier I would endeavor to make them all .. why? Because I want it all... I am a completest, I must work to have all the things. . . at least endgame things LoL
Still waiting for that second set of arms to grow so can wield two staves (Relic and Mythic) on blm .-.

WoW

08-26-2014, 05:02 AM

This is so untrue. Tons and tons of people are making Mythics now. Do you see how many people shout for Einherjar on a daily basis compared to before? The reason you see so much alex is because many, many people farm Salvage for gil.

From a personal experience; these shouts do occur on a daily basis, but it is usually the same ppl, lol. Just some trends I noticed over the past year or so. On occasions, they tend to shout for awhile before farming. There are ppl making them, no doubt; not sure how many though. Eyeball test says not too many. Could be wrong, but they are not common or somewhat common per-se; single popular relics may triumph or equate/come close to the total number of mythics.

detlef

08-26-2014, 05:26 AM

From a personal experience; these shouts do occur on a daily basis, but it is usually the same ppl, lol. Just some trends I noticed over the past year or so. On occasions, they tend to shout for awhile before farming. There are ppl making them, no doubt; not sure how many though. Eyeball test says not too many. Could be wrong, but they are not common or somewhat common per-se; single popular relics may triumph or equate/come close to the total number of mythics.Maybe it's server-dependent, but Valefor is as backwater as it gets and there are at least 3-4 separate NA groups that go (not counting the people in my linkshell) and at least a handful of JP shouts. I can only assume that it's even more popular on Asura.

Besides you can tell just by looking around, whether it's on FFXIAH or just walking around town. So many of these weapons are best in slot that a lot of players are seeing them as worthwhile and highly attainable long term goals.

FrankReynolds

08-26-2014, 05:37 AM

Maybe it's server-dependent, but Valefor is as backwater as it gets and there are at least 3-4 separate NA groups that go (not counting the people in my linkshell) and at least a handful of JP shouts. I can only assume that it's even more popular on Asura.

Besides you can tell just by looking around, whether it's on FFXIAH or just walking around town. So many of these weapons are best in slot that a lot of players are seeing them as worthwhile and highly attainable long term goals.

There's like 700 total.

Mefuki

08-26-2014, 05:39 AM

detlef

08-26-2014, 06:09 AM

There's like 700 total.How are you getting 700 total?

http://www.ffxiah.com/relics/mythics

That's not even counting the vast majority of JP Mythics. Considering that there are only 16 servers now there're probably close to couple hundred per server.

Malithar

08-26-2014, 06:28 AM

There's like 700 total.

There was 512 of them as of May 16th...2011. I'd wager there's well over 3k mythics at this point, there's many people with multiple.

FrankReynolds

08-26-2014, 10:45 AM

How are you getting 700 total?

http://www.ffxiah.com/relics/mythics

That's not even counting the vast majority of JP Mythics. Considering that there are only 16 servers now there're probably close to couple hundred per server.

I was unaware that FFXIAH didn't count JP accounts. To be honest, I don't even know if that's accurate since I see a couple people from my LS missing on there and a bunch of people listed on my server that aren't on my server any more.

Let's just assume that the 3,000 that the guy below me claims is correct for arguments sake. That site also lists 128,000 active accounts. That's about 2 mythics out of every 100 players before you even account for guys that have more than 1. My server has like 900 people on at peak time. Which means I can expect an average of maybe 20 people on the whole server to have a mythic.

I mean I know I'm gonna sound like a jerk here, but if those 20 guys have to be bored so that the other 880 of us have something to do, well that's too bad.

detlef

08-26-2014, 11:25 AM

I was unaware that FFXIAH didn't count JP accounts. To be honest, I don't even know if that's accurate since I see a couple people from my LS missing on there and a bunch of people listed on my server that aren't on my server any more.

Let's just assume that the 3,000 that the guy below me claims is correct for arguments sake. That site also lists 128,000 active accounts. That's about 2 mythics out of every 100 players before you even account for guys that have more than 1. My server has like 900 people on at peak time. Which means I can expect an average of maybe 20 people on the whole server to have a mythic.

I mean I know I'm gonna sound like a jerk here, but if those 20 guys have to be bored so that the other 880 of us have something to do, well that's too bad.128k active accounts does not equal active players as it includes mule characters. The real number of active players is probably something far less (of course, there are inactive mythics too). I'd wager that there are many more Mythics than new players, and we don't tell new players to just screw off do we? Well, maybe we do...

Afania

08-26-2014, 09:36 PM

If they started giving out kogas for a million gil tomorrow, people would still take a JSE or Tsurumaru sam to w/e content without batting an eye as long as the rest of their gear was up to par.

Nah, if you think ppl would invite JSE or Tsurumaru SAM when 50% of playerbase owns koga, you're either delusional or don't know MMO mentality.

JSE and Tsuru isn't "on par" of koga, it's inferior to koga. There's a hierarchy in 119 weapons and currently Koga is top, followed by Tsuru.

When PUG make a pt, they tend to invite DD with top weapon, regardless the gap being 1% or 5%.

Whenever I /shout for 1 119 SAM for delve, I often get 5 /tell within 1 min. If I don't know any of the SAM in /tell, I'd have to pick one out of 5 to join the pt.

Since I don't know any of them, nor how well they play, the only difference that would affect the choice is.....the weapon.

When a pt lead got 3 Tsuru SAM /tell and 2 JSE SAM /tell, the JSE SAM is automatically out, because Tsuru is better.

If the lead got 2 Koga SAM /tell and 3 Tsuru SAM /tell, all the Tsuru SAM would be filtered out as well, because Koga is better.

Atm Tsuru SAM can still get a spot because it's unlikely that you can get a Koga SAM in /tell. If you get 10 Koga SAM /tell after every shout, you seriously think Tsuru SAM can get a chance? Only if the Tsuru SAM get better skill/connection than Koga.

I have a bunch of mythic owners and multiple mythic owners in my shell. I don't know anyone who would quit if they could have more. For every guy who says he would quit if his mugeleis were too easy to obtain, there's another 10 guys who say they would build 5 more if it didn't suck so much.

Ok, so you have friends that'd build 10 more Mythics if they can and wouldn't quit the game after it's done, then it doesn't matter if they can only build 1 or 10, they'd keep playing anyways.

So what's the point to adjust the requirement so they can build 10 mythics? They still gonna keep playing even with 1 mythic.

For the entire thread, all the argument supporting easier mythics are based on "I want", instead of what makes a better game.

"I want easier mythic so I can build one before I quit and play with it!"

"I want easier mythic so I can build 10 mythics! Gonna collect them all!"

"I want easier mythic because we'd have happier world if everyone can get a mythic!"

IMO, everyone owning 10 mythics doesn't make the game better, it only satisfy some player's short term instant gratification, and force the player without mythic to build one to be on par, even if they don't want to.

tl;dr:

Mythic should be obtainable by minority, maybe 5% or 10% of the playerbase. So it wouldn't be a requirement to play the job.

Majority of players should only be able to obtain 1~2 mythics, but not 20 mythics. So when you finish a mythic, it actually meant something.

That is what mythic should be, a long term goal that feels like an accomplishment when it's done. If you only enjoy collecting 20 weapons in a very short time, just go collect delve2/JSE weapons.

Arbalest

08-27-2014, 12:15 AM

Nah, if you think ppl would invite JSE or Tsurumaru SAM when 50% of playerbase owns koga, you're either delusional or don't know MMO mentality.

JSE and Tsuru isn't "on par" of koga, it's inferior to koga. There's a hierarchy in 119 weapons and currently Koga is top, followed by Tsuru.

When PUG make a pt, they tend to invite DD with top weapon, regardless the gap being 1% or 5%.

Whenever I /shout for 1 119 SAM for delve, I often get 5 /tell within 1 min. If I don't know any of the SAM in /tell, I'd have to pick one out of 5 to join the pt.

Since I don't know any of them, nor how well they play, the only difference that would affect the choice is.....the weapon.

When a pt lead got 3 Tsuru SAM /tell and 2 JSE SAM /tell, the JSE SAM is automatically out, because Tsuru is better.

If the lead got 2 Koga SAM /tell and 3 Tsuru SAM /tell, all the Tsuru SAM would be filtered out as well, because Koga is better.

Atm Tsuru SAM can still get a spot because it's unlikely that you can get a Koga SAM in /tell. If you get 10 Koga SAM /tell after every shout, you seriously think Tsuru SAM can get a chance? Only if the Tsuru SAM get better skill/connection than Koga.

Ok, so you have friends that'd build 10 more Mythics if they can and wouldn't quit the game after it's done, then it doesn't matter if they can only build 1 or 10, they'd keep playing anyways.

So what's the point to adjust the requirement so they can build 10 mythics? They still gonna keep playing even with 1 mythic.

For the entire thread, all the argument supporting easier mythics are based on "I want", instead of what makes a better game.

"I want easier mythic so I can build one before I quit and play with it!"

"I want easier mythic so I can build 10 mythics! Gonna collect them all!"

"I want easier mythic because we'd have happier world if everyone can get a mythic!"

IMO, everyone owning 10 mythics doesn't make the game better, it only satisfy some player's short term instant gratification, and force the player without mythic to build one to be on par, even if they don't want to.

tl;dr:

Mythic should be obtainable by minority, maybe 5% or 10% of the playerbase. So it wouldn't be a requirement to play the job.

Majority of players should only be able to obtain 1~2 mythics, but not 20 mythics. So when you finish a mythic, it actually meant something.

That is what mythic should be, a long term goal that feels like an accomplishment when it's done. If you only enjoy collecting 20 weapons in a very short time, just go collect delve2/JSE weapons.

I've partied with a few Koga and Amano SAMs while I'm just a lousy Tsuru SAM; and I've parsed higher than them by a fairly wide margin.

The weapon doesn't automatically make the player good.

Afania

08-27-2014, 12:58 AM

I've partied with a few Koga and Amano SAMs while I'm just a lousy Tsuru SAM; and I've parsed higher than them by a fairly wide margin.

The weapon doesn't automatically make the player good.

FYI Amano isn't as good as Tsuru in delve afaik.

When you /shout and got 5 /tell from strangers that you have 0 experience about their playing skill, how else can you make a choice? Either /random or pick DD with better gears.

"I've outparse mythic with delve weapon" isn't a legit argument when you're gambling with PUG DD. Tsuru can outpuarse Koga is just like how Koga can outparse Tsuru, and there's a slightly higher chance with koga parse higher.

Edit: My LS mate made a /shout yorcia pt yesterday and hit a jack pot with a tsuru SAM using Koki entire run. At least Koga gets kasha which ensures your PUG SAM won't use koki in yorcia.

FrankReynolds

08-27-2014, 07:12 AM

Nah, if you think ppl would invite JSE or Tsurumaru SAM when 50% of playerbase owns koga, you're either delusional or don't know MMO mentality.

JSE and Tsuru isn't "on par" of koga, it's inferior to koga. There's a hierarchy in 119 weapons and currently Koga is top, followed by Tsuru.

When PUG make a pt, they tend to invite DD with top weapon, regardless the gap being 1% or 5%.

Whenever I /shout for 1 119 SAM for delve, I often get 5 /tell within 1 min. If I don't know any of the SAM in /tell, I'd have to pick one out of 5 to join the pt.

Since I don't know any of them, nor how well they play, the only difference that would affect the choice is.....the weapon.

When a pt lead got 3 Tsuru SAM /tell and 2 JSE SAM /tell, the JSE SAM is automatically out, because Tsuru is better.

If the lead got 2 Koga SAM /tell and 3 Tsuru SAM /tell, all the Tsuru SAM would be filtered out as well, because Koga is better.

Atm Tsuru SAM can still get a spot because it's unlikely that you can get a Koga SAM in /tell. If you get 10 Koga SAM /tell after every shout, you seriously think Tsuru SAM can get a chance? Only if the Tsuru SAM get better skill/connection than Koga.

The content dictates. Not the gear. People don't really demand that you have a specific weapon for most things these days because the content doesn't require it. Content should't be built around these weapons anyways. You're trying to solve a problem with inaccessible content by cutting people off from even more content.

Ok, so you have friends that'd build 10 more Mythics if they can and wouldn't quit the game after it's done, then it doesn't matter if they can only build 1 or 10, they'd keep playing anyways.

So what's the point to adjust the requirement so they can build 10 mythics? They still gonna keep playing even with 1 mythic.

I could reverse that and say that your imaginary friend who is gonna quit if the most tedious quest line in the game is made slightly less tedious is really not gonna quit. It's not hard content. It's not even all that interesting at this point. It just takes a looooong time. If just doing something that takes a long time is what you want, then do it twice. I don't think anyone has them all yet. Go be that guy.

For the entire thread, all the argument supporting easier mythics are based on "I want", instead of what makes a better game.

So how exactly is putting a bunch of stuff in the game that 90% of the players don't do good for the game?

and force the player without mythic to build one to be on par, even if they don't want to.

You could say that about anything. I heard a guy complain about how expensive the JSE GK is. He didn't want to spend all that money just to be on par. Such is life.

tl;dr:

Mythic should be obtainable by minority, maybe 5% or 10% of the playerbase. So it wouldn't be a requirement to play the job.

Or, you know.... They could just not release content that requires it.

Majority of players should only be able to obtain 1~2 mythics, but not 20 mythics.

Why? so that you have to shout longer to find the guy who built the 2 you need in your group?

So when you finish a mythic, it actually meant something.

That is what mythic should be, a long term goal that feels like an accomplishment when it's done. If you only enjoy collecting 20 weapons in a very short time, just go collect delve2/JSE weapons.

I did. And it felt good.

Malithar

08-27-2014, 08:55 AM

The content dictates. Not the gear. People don't really demand that you have a specific weapon for most things these days because the content doesn't require it. Content should't be built around these weapons anyways. You're trying to solve a problem with inaccessible content by cutting people off from even more content.

[...]

Why? so that you have to shout longer to find the guy who built the 2 you need in your group?

What content gives you the impression that mythics are needed for anything? It's the nature of the player base, not the content. Or did you think VW required RMEs? Delve requires RMEs? Skirmish requires RMEs? Normal BCs require RMEs? All listed are things I've seen people shout for hours at times, looking for x job with mythic, for no real good reason at all.

It's as Afania said, when someone makes a pug, they go for the top end. What he didn't go into detail about and where most pugs go wrong is they demand the top end. That doesn't mean the content needs it, that's just the player base's mentality of "go with the highest chance to succeed." And as he said, when pugging, outside of checking out their gear sets in detail, asking what weapon they have is a short cut to getting an idea of how well they're geared. Doesn't mean it works 100%.

Janethetaru

08-27-2014, 08:57 AM

I'm just waiting for the next flavor of the month mmo to come out so all the game jumpers that went from XI to XIV will move on so it fails just like everquest 2 and they bring their staff back to this game.

FrankReynolds

08-27-2014, 01:50 PM

What content gives you the impression that mythics are needed for anything? It's the nature of the player base, not the content. Or did you think VW required RMEs? Delve requires RMEs? Skirmish requires RMEs?

AT certain times, having those weapons increased your chance of success by a great deal. You'll notice that no one really shouts for them now because they no longer make a significant impact when compared to what average joe's are sporting. Now people just ask if you have a 119 weapon. Simply being the right level is good enough.

Normal BCs require RMEs? All listed are things I've seen people shout for hours at times, looking for x job with mythic, for no real good reason at all.

There's always that one idiot who demands the best. There's a guy on my server who shouts all day for relic rangers for AA normal fights. He shouts for a looooong time because no one wants to party with a guy who shouts for stupid crap like that.

A year ago, every shout was like that. All of them. Why? Because a guy with a delve weapon would blow a guy with ah gear out of the friggin water and people were pushing against time limits. Now, a delve weapon isn't far ahead of a JSE weapon. Close enough that player error is a much larger factor in winning. So now you only see stupid people demanding them. The guy who won't take anything less than an RME nowadays is usually exactly the guy you don't want to go with anyways.

It's as Afania said, when someone makes a pug, they go for the top end. What he didn't go into detail about and where most pugs go wrong is they demand the top end. That doesn't mean the content needs it, that's just the player base's mentality of "go with the highest chance to succeed." And as he said, when pugging, outside of checking out their gear sets in detail, asking what weapon they have is a short cut to getting an idea of how well they're geared. Doesn't mean it works 100%.

I would beg to differ. People don't look for the best chance to succeed. They look for the most reasonable chance to succeed. If the odds are incredibly high that you can't beat something without a certain job / item then you will demand that. JSE sams and monks can beat most stuff now with a fairly high success rate. That used to be a huge gamble so no one did it. Now I see it all the time. If it's more effort to find a RME guy than it is to just do the content without, people will go without. That is what happens more often than not now with a few exceptions.

There's always gonna be that one shell or individual who refuses to let people who haven't built all the weapons leech off their clearly superior skills...

Afania

08-27-2014, 09:26 PM

AT certain times, having those weapons increased your chance of success by a great deal. You'll notice that no one really shouts for them now because they no longer make a significant impact when compared to what average joe's are sporting. Now people just ask if you have a 119 weapon. Simply being the right level is good enough.

This isn't true at all, OAT GS was powerful enough to beat all the content pre-SoA, so does TP bonus GKT. And yet it was still RME only.

No one really /shout for RME now because RE is already dead. Tsuru > relic and empy, and 90% of players own Tsuru. If you /shout mythic only you won't get anyone for a good while so you may as well don't /shout for them.

Also my point wasn't what is /shout for, but whether none mythic owners can compete with mythic owner when one spot open if both send /tell together.

If I /shout "Koga only" for event, it won't worth the effort now because it's going to take longer, only minority of the playerbase owns koga.

If 80% of the player owns koga, every /shout I do I can get 4 koga tell but only 1 tsuru /tell, then the tsuru SAM would be in a inferior position when trying to get that spot.

Your argument about "it takes longer to /shout for a Mythic" would no longer be valid if 80% of player owns koga and you get 10 Koga /tell in 10 sec every shout.

I could reverse that and say that your imaginary friend who is gonna quit if the most tedious quest line in the game is made slightly less tedious is really not gonna quit. It's not hard content. It's not even all that interesting at this point. It just takes a looooong time. If just doing something that takes a long time is what you want, then do it twice. I don't think anyone has them all yet. Go be that guy.

FYI I do have friends who quit after mythic done, and whether mythic is hard/tedious or not is irrelevant in this discussion. Most ppl tend to use "Mythic isn't hard, just tedious" as an argument to support easier mythic requirement, but that does not have any logic to back it up. By logic if Mythic is bad because it's long and tedious, the solution is to make it equally long but more fun to build, instead of shorten the process.

Just because you enjoy collecting weapons, doesn't mean there's a need to turn every weapon in this game into delve weapons.

Not everyone in this game has the same opinion as you about the weapons, nor have the same taste. There are players like instant gratification weapons like delve weapons, there are players like to build semi time consuming weapons like relic, there are players like to build very time consuming weapons like mythic/ergon, there are players like to build extremely time consuming weapons like afterglow.

The point is to have options to satisfy every type of player.

If you like instant gratification, go collect delve weapons. Since there's already an option for instant gratification fans, there's no need to turn EVERY weapon bar afterglow into instant gratification weapons.

Your argument about "If you like mythic building just build 2" isn't legit. If owning multiple weapons is what I want, I can just get delve weapons or relics. I have multiple none RME 119 weapons already, I don't need anymore weapons that I can finish in a short time.

Further more, each job can only use 1 mythic, your argument about "just go build 2" won't work anyways. If you want to use that as an argument, at least ask SE to release new line of legendary for every job.

You can't tell ppl just "go get afterglow if you want to spend time" either, since afterglow isn't the same tier of time investment as mythic. It costs at least 7+ times more than RME, and there needs to be a middle ground for ppl that wants to spend time, but not THAT much time.

Lithera

08-28-2014, 02:38 AM

So how exactly did this go from a complaint thread about the Dev's having no plans and most of the time nothing more but that back to mythics being need to do well in the game?

Xerius

08-28-2014, 02:56 AM

So how exactly did this go from a complaint thread about the Dev's having no plans and most of the time nothing more but that back to mythics being need to do well in the game?

I don't even know...

WoW

08-28-2014, 04:27 AM

I don't even know...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/43854-THe-Development-Team-Does-Not-Currently-Have-Plans-Too...?p=521413&viewfull=1#post521413

We were on topic; then the angry birds came crashing in stirring up the pot.

From that point; mythics started to become the main subject topic, hence lead to endgame gear, etc.

This is why I do not bother responding to some ppl, I know what they are all about; it is not fair to the OP.

FrankReynolds

08-28-2014, 07:26 AM

This isn't true at all, OAT GS was powerful enough to beat all the content pre-SoA, so does TP bonus GKT. And yet it was still RME only.

People didn't put that in the OAT weapons in shout because it was easier to just say RME. I'm sure if you had said you had one of those weapons, no one would have complained. You're just splitting hairs.

Also my point wasn't what is /shout for, but whether none mythic owners can compete with mythic owner when one spot open if both send /tell together.

Their close enough that the party leader is probably just gonna take whoever responded first. There's a high likelihood that they won't even ask what weapon because at this point pretty much all 119 weapons are good enough and pretty much everyone has one.

If I /shout "Koga only" for event, it won't worth the effort now because it's going to take longer, only minority of the playerbase owns koga.

If 80% of the player owns koga, every /shout I do I can get 4 koga tell but only 1 tsuru /tell, then the tsuru SAM would be in a inferior position when trying to get that spot.

You could apply that logic to just about any piece of gear or weapon. But like I said, most people don't shout for specific weapon. Just the weapon level.

Your argument about "it takes longer to /shout for a Mythic" would no longer be valid if 80% of player owns koga and you get 10 Koga /tell in 10 sec every shout.

See above

FYI I do have friends who quit after mythic done, and whether mythic is hard/tedious or not is irrelevant in this discussion.

They probably quit because they were burned out on the game after doing such a tedious quest.

Most ppl tend to use "Mythic isn't hard, just tedious" as an argument to support easier mythic requirement, but that does not have any logic to back it up. By logic if Mythic is bad because it's long and tedious, the solution is to make it equally long but more fun to build, instead of shorten the process.

Yeah, that would be nice. Just build a whole new quest line and delete the old one...

Just because you enjoy collecting weapons, doesn't mean there's a need to turn every weapon in this game into delve weapons.

There's a huge difference between changing a quest so that it takes 2 months instead of 3 months and changing the quest so that it takes 1 hour. You're just exaggerating now.

Not everyone in this game has the same opinion as you about the weapons, nor have the same taste. There are players like instant gratification weapons like delve weapons, there are players like to build semi time consuming weapons like relic, there are players like to build very time consuming weapons like mythic/ergon, there are players like to build extremely time consuming weapons like afterglow.

The point is to have options to satisfy every type of player.

If you like instant gratification, go collect delve weapons. Since there's already an option for instant gratification fans, there's no need to turn EVERY weapon bar afterglow into instant gratification weapons.

Your argument about "If you like mythic building just build 2" isn't legit. If owning multiple weapons is what I want, I can just get delve weapons or relics. I have multiple none RME 119 weapons already, I don't need anymore weapons that I can finish in a short time.

Further more, each job can only use 1 mythic, your argument about "just go build 2" won't work anyways. If you want to use that as an argument, at least ask SE to release new line of legendary for every job.

You can't tell ppl just "go get afterglow if you want to spend time" either, since afterglow isn't the same tier of time investment as mythic. It costs at least 7+ times more than RME, and there needs to be a middle ground for ppl that wants to spend time, but not THAT much time.

That whole argument boils down to "I want a weapon that no one else can." which goes against your whole argument for having stuff for everyone.

Afania

08-28-2014, 10:08 AM

People didn't put that in the OAT weapons in shout because it was easier to just say RME. I'm sure if you had said you had one of those weapons, no one would have complained. You're just splitting hairs.

Their close enough that the party leader is probably just gonna take whoever responded first. There's a high likelihood that they won't even ask what weapon because at this point pretty much all 119 weapons are good enough and pretty much everyone has one.

Nope, pretty sure if Tsuru and koga send tell together most ppl with right mind would pick koga first.They won't say Koga only but they'd still make choice and pick ppl. I never say anything about ppl would shout for koga only, I only said ppl would invite koga first if they see koga /tell.

They probably quit because they were burned out on the game after doing such a tedious quest.

Nah, they said they want to quit before they start, just want to finish a mythic before quit. Stop applying your POV on other ppl lol.

That whole argument boils down to "I want a weapon that no one else can." which goes against your whole argument for having stuff for everyone.

It doesn't though, even if they make mythic obtainable for more ppl, it still doesn't benefit everyone, unlike making more content which will for sure benefit everyone.

Not sure how you don't see this logic. If they make mythic more obtainable, I'm still gonna sit in town having nothing to do, if they make more content I can go out and do the content. The game should be build on creating more content, not making the life of old content shorter.

I also didn't argue that the weapon shouldn't be obtainable by anyone else except me - -. I said current mythic requirement is just fine, and a lot of ppl already get it, thus it's obtainable by someone else. If I want a weapon not obtainable by anyone else I'd ask "please deliver mythic to my inbox but not other ppl's ty" instead.

FrankReynolds

08-29-2014, 01:46 PM

Nope, pretty sure if Tsuru and koga send tell together most ppl with right mind would pick koga first.They won't say Koga only but they'd still make choice and pick ppl. I never say anything about ppl would shout for koga only, I only said ppl would invite koga first if they see koga /tell.

But people don't ask so....

Nah, they said they want to quit before they start, just want to finish a mythic before quit. Stop applying your POV on other ppl lol.

So keep the game a certain way to satisfy people who are planning on quitting. Makes perfect sense.

It doesn't though, even if they make mythic obtainable for more ppl, it still doesn't benefit everyone, unlike making more content which will for sure benefit everyone.

How does making more content benefit your friends who are only playing until they finish their mythics? Which content will for sure benefit everyone?

Not sure how you don't see this logic. If they make mythic more obtainable, I'm still gonna sit in town having nothing to do, if they make more content I can go out and do the content. The game should be build on creating more content, not making the life of old content shorter.

Why do you think they can't do both? The mythic line is already built. Changing it requires minimal effort. This isn't an either / or situation. If they can make more content, they can easily update the mythic stuff as well.

I also didn't argue that the weapon shouldn't be obtainable by anyone else except me - -. I said current mythic requirement is just fine, and a lot of ppl already get it, thus it's obtainable by someone else. If I want a weapon not obtainable by anyone else I'd ask "please deliver mythic to my inbox but not other ppl's ty" instead.

You pretty much did. You want it set at a difficulty where most people can't / won't do it so that you can feel special. That's almost the same thing.

Afania

08-29-2014, 10:49 PM

You pretty much did. You want it set at a difficulty where most people can't / won't do it so that you can feel special. That's almost the same thing.

Lol, if I want to feel special I'd ask the dev to give me three glowing effects, or change my character model into a mantra. NO ONE ELSE GETS THREE GLOWING EFFECT ON A MANTRA EXCEPT MEEEEE!

It sure it's easy to play the "you want to feel special" card if I ask for goals/contents in this game with reasonable length to worth $12 a month sub fee.

"I want content that worth 3~5 months of playing so I don't finish everything in 2 weeks and quit, can I haz more grind?"

"You just want to feel special!"

Lol. Sounds like a conversation between trees and brickwalls.

Btw, do you name your character "Mrkillface" or collect all delve weapons because you want to feel special too?

FrankReynolds

08-30-2014, 12:47 AM

Lol, if I want to feel special I'd ask the dev to give me three glowing effects, or change my character model into a mantra. NO ONE ELSE GETS THREE GLOWING EFFECT ON A MANTRA EXCEPT MEEEEE!

It sure it's easy to play the "you want to feel special" card if I ask for goals/contents in this game with reasonable length to worth $12 a month sub fee.

No one said you couldn't keep doing the quests over and over to infinity if you just love doing assault missions, einherjar and salvage, go do it. No one asked for the content to be removed or modified in the slightest. You can do the same old boring stuff as much as you like for all eternity.

But it's not about the content. It's about the item. You want to be one of the only people around to have it. The content loses all value to you when someone else has the time to do it because you don't care about the content at all. You just want to be able to do something everyone else can't.

"I want content that worth 3~5 months of playing so I don't finish everything in 2 weeks and quit, can I haz more grind?"

Why not add some afterglow to your weapon? Is that too much time and money?

"You just want to feel special!"

Lol. Sounds like a conversation between trees and brickwalls.

Btw, do you name your character "Mrkillface" or collect all delve weapons because you want to feel special too?

What does that even mean? You have to name your character. WTF does that have to do with anything at all?

And no, I collected weapons because I wanted to beat content and those weapons made it easier. They're fairly easy to get and I'm glad. I hate searching and not finding people who are geared well almost as bad as I hate not being geared appropriately myself. I love that collecting gear is easier now. I hate having to choose between an almost guaranteed loss or not inviting my friends to events.

I had this same stupid argument when VW was the thing. Everyone complained about having the same gear as everyone else. Why do you need your pixels to be better than everyone else when you should be happy that they are better than the NM you are fighting? You should want the gear so that you can beat content. Not so that you can look like the coolest kid in port jeuno. You shouldn't be butthurt just because some other kid has the same sword or armor as you.

I mean do you do this in real life? Did you drop out of school because the 13 year grind seemed pointless when you found out that every other kid could graduate too? or did you keep going because not being an idiot is more important than being better than the kid next door?

Shouldn't playing well be the goal and not who can play the longest?

Afania

08-30-2014, 01:27 AM

No one said you couldn't keep doing the quests over and over to infinity if you just love doing assault missions, einherjar and salvage, go do it. No one asked for the content to be removed or modified in the slightest. You can do the same old boring stuff as much as you like for all eternity.

Are you arguing that ppl should play MMO not for item? Cuz as far as I know of, every MMO player do the content for items.

Nobody do monstrosity because NO ITEM.

Nobody do Eco warrior because NO ITEM.

So why should I do assault/ein over and over if there are NO ITEM?

Your point is getting silly. You can yell at me for wanting to be special all day long, but you can't change how MMO players think.

Also, mythic isn't an item "everyone else can't obtain" but rather "some ppl choose not to do it". If you purposely choose not to do the mythic, you have nobody else to blame but yourself.

If I want to own an item nobody else has, I'd stop others from making the decision to make the item, but you made the decision by yourself, and you blame me for wanting an item nobody else has? Lol.

I didn't do anything to stop ppl go after a mythic, if someone isn't working on a mythic, he/she purposely choose not to do it.

Why not add some afterglow to your weapon? Is that too much time and money?

Sure why not, that doesn't mean they should make mythic easier though. Sounds like you want easier mythic cuz you want one, you don't want easier afterglow cuz you don't want one, am I right?

What does that even mean? You have to name your character. WTF does that have to do with anything at all?

Yeah, you have to name your character, but I'm still going to play the "you wanna be special" card cuz you don't give your character a normal name!

I just did the same thing you did, I wanted mythic requirement stay the same, then you played "you just wanna be special" card to twist the reason into "you want something nobody else has", I can do the same.

I had this same stupid argument when VW was the thing. Everyone complained about having the same gear as everyone else. Why do you need your pixels to be better than everyone else when you should be happy that they are better than the NM you are fighting? You should want the gear so that you can beat content. Not so that you can look like the coolest kid in port jeuno. You shouldn't be butthurt just because some other kid has the same sword or armor as you.

I don't butthurt if someone else has the same sword or armor as me if they spend as much time/gil as me. I don't butthurt when I see another player owning a mythic because he/she probably spend the time on it and probably deserves it.

I do buffhurt when I see ppl ask for faster gears, because I think you can already get gear fast enough in this game compare with other MMO, I think it's a bad direction to make it faster.

You can keep playing "you just wanna be special" card and ignore every other points I've made, I'm gonna counter it with the same card as well!

Balloon

08-30-2014, 02:05 AM

Afania

08-30-2014, 02:38 AM

The only thing I think is that if you're going to have them be the best weapon for 119 content then they should be accessible via 119 content. Even if they end up taking longer, before, with a mythic, a lot of the content was relevant so even if you weren't working towards one you were.. kind of working towards one slowly because that content had other benefits.

Now you sorta don't, so you have to go out of your way to do the long, long quest. That's your best option for 119 stuff, it sorta 'fixes' some jobs too. It just strikes me as weird that it's then tied to some of the older content in the game. Not really a challenge, is it, it's just.. monotony and gil.

The name thing is really really grasping at straws. I don't know why MrKillFace is weird over Afania or Balloon or Podginator. I've seen weirder. I've seen more generic.

I don't mind Mythic being accessible via 119 content, as long as the amount of time required to obtain a mythic stays the same.

I'm against making mythic faster to obtain though, unless you enjoy even emptier servers.

As for the name thing, I'm just messing around with his name. Cuz he kept playing "you just wanna be special" card on me, which is a cheap move.

detlef

08-30-2014, 03:14 AM

The only thing I think is that if you're going to have them be the best weapon for 119 content then they should be accessible via 119 content. Even if they end up taking longer, before, with a mythic, a lot of the content was relevant so even if you weren't working towards one you were.. kind of working towards one slowly because that content had other benefits.

Now you sorta don't, so you have to go out of your way to do the long, long quest. That's your best option for 119 stuff, it sorta 'fixes' some jobs too. It just strikes me as weird that it's then tied to some of the older content in the game. Not really a challenge, is it, it's just.. monotony and gil.If this were the case, people would complain that the weapons were locked behind inaccessible content. Probably the same people who are complaining now. The process as it is now is incredibly friendly to anybody who wants to actually do it because you don't necessarily need to be on the cutting edge of current content.

If people are going to argue about making Mythics easier, we should at least examine how easy they are to make already. Look, the Einherjar shout groups are out there. The Nyzul shout groups are out there. All but a handful of Assaults are soloable and not a pain in the ass. And Alex is easier than ever. The dream weapon for your favorite job is there for the taking if you go out and actually do it instead of complain. Or at least multi-task and complain while you do it.

FrankReynolds

08-30-2014, 02:59 PM

Are you arguing that ppl should play MMO not for item? Cuz as far as I know of, every MMO player do the content for items.

Nobody do monstrosity because NO ITEM.

Nobody do Eco warrior because NO ITEM.

That's right. nobody does those events because no item. So stop pretending that you need long content to give you something to do when really you just want an item and you want that item to take a long time to get so that other people don't have that item.

You aren't in it for the content. You are in it for the item. You aren't fighting the noble fight to keep people interested and keep the game alive. You're fighting to keep your item exclusive.

Also, mythic isn't an item "everyone else can't obtain" but rather "some ppl choose not to do it". If you purposely choose not to do the mythic, you have nobody else to blame but yourself.

I could say the same thing about the content. It isn't like you can't continue to farm nyzul isle, salvage and einherjar for all eternity after you've built your weapon. Just because it takes less time doesn't mean you can't do it. You just choose not to do it. You have nobody to blame but yourself.

Sure why not, that doesn't mean they should make mythic easier though. Sounds like you want easier mythic cuz you want one, you don't want easier afterglow cuz you don't want one, am I right?

I don't want a mythic. It's more work than it's worth. It's like buying a gold helicopter. I could build a mythic if I wanted. Hell, I could probably buy all the alex outright right now and I'm halfway finished with the other stuff just out of coincidence. But I'd rather be doing something more fun and rewarding.

I don't want afterglow because the quest is ridiculous and not fun in the slightest. I railed against it before they even put it in the game.

This is a game, not a job. There is nothing wrong about wanting the achievements to be fun.

Yeah, you have to name your character, but I'm still going to play the "you wanna be special" card cuz you don't give your character a normal name!

There is no such thing as a normal name. You're seriously grasping here.

Aeron

08-30-2014, 07:35 PM

^^ In response to the above post about how mythics are more trouble then they are worth. I don't know how to tell you how more wrong you could be. Speaking as someone who has a Burtgang ill tell you that the increase in job performance is in terms of lvls of magnitude. There is nothing that even comes close in terms of a wpn for pld.

You can't have your cake and eat it to on this. You can't say oh well the requirements should be lessened and then say oh well the items aren't really worth it anyway. Really sounds like your just being lazy on the issue.

Afania

08-30-2014, 08:14 PM

That's right. nobody does those events because no item. So stop pretending that you need long content to give you something to do when really you just want an item and you want that item to take a long time to get so that other people don't have that item.

You aren't in it for the content. You are in it for the item. You aren't fighting the noble fight to keep people interested and keep the game alive. You're fighting to keep your item exclusive.

Some video game design fundamental 101 for you:

I never say anything about I or other players are playing this game for the content but not the reward, I only said I(or most of the MMO players) do the content for items, that's how video game design works, not sure why'd you turn it into "wanting to feeling special".

Game design is always about setting a goal then put obstacles for the players to overcome to accomplish that goal. A game needs BOTH the content/obstacle AND goals to be a game. Whether the game is FFXI or Angry Birds. A game with no goal but just the content isn't a game.

So I'm not sure why are you asking me to do the content without goals. If the game designer wants the player to do the content, it needs reward/goals, that's how the games work. This has nothing to do with myself being "noble" or not. I'm just doing the same thing as every other video game player would do.....which is to play a game for the reward/goal. An item/reward is just there for the ppl to do it.

You can keep playing the irrelevant "you just want items to be exclusive" card over and over again, without grasping the most fundamental video game player mentality. Even if I go do the content for no reward cuz I'm out of my mind, 99% of players wouldn't do the content without reward.

To summarize for you since you fail to understand repeatly:

1) A game needs reward/goal if you want ppl to play.....nobody would do ein/assault if they can't get mythic from it. Nobody would pay a monthly sub if they log on and find no goal to aim for. Game design fundamental 101.

2) Current content goal isn't' long enough to keep most players around for more than 3 months without JP grind/RME grind/afterglow.

3) Faster mythic= everyone run out of goals faster.

4) Everyone run out of goals faster = population decline faster.

Now if you still want to play the same "you want exclusive items!" repeatly, I won't bother to reply. By your logic anyone playing a video game wants to be special.....if you play Tetris you want to be special cuz you're aiming for high score!

I could say the same thing about the content. It isn't like you can't continue to farm nyzul isle, salvage and einherjar for all eternity after you've built your weapon. Just because it takes less time doesn't mean you can't do it. You just choose not to do it. You have nobody to blame but yourself.

This is incorrect, there are no decision making involved if reward/goal doesn't exist.

Decision making= make a choice to decide which goal to aim for. There are many goals in this game for you to choose what to go after. I can choose to grind a delve weapon, or grind a mythic. In your case, you choose not to grind a mythic, but go after delve weapon.

Now if ein/assault doesn't offer a mythic, then the only choice left is to grind a delve weapon. Because doing ein/assault is automatically out of the choice list without a goal.

It's not that players choose which content to do in this game, instead players choose which goal to do. A content with no goal wouldn't even be on the list of choice.

I don't want afterglow because the quest is ridiculous and not fun in the slightest. I railed against it before they even put it in the game.

This is a game, not a job. There is nothing wrong about wanting the achievements to be fun.

I didn't ask the Mythic to stay tedious, I only ask mythic to require certain time investment so players don't run out of goals fast. I don't mind they change the mythic requirement into current hard/fun content, as long as it still requires same amount of time to obtain.

There's nothing wrong about wanting to the achievement to be fun or challenging, but there's something wrong about wanting the achievement to come faster.

Since you continue to play the "you wanna be special" card on me, I'm going to play the "you just want fast achievement" card on you as well.

There is no such thing as a normal name. You're seriously grasping here.

Hey, you could have name yourself "Jack" or something. :D

Demonjustin

08-30-2014, 10:06 PM

There's nothing wrong about wanting to the achievement to be fun or challenging, but there's something wrong about wanting the achievement to come faster.There is nothing wrong with asking for an achievement to take less than 4~6 months.

Afania

08-30-2014, 10:22 PM

There is nothing wrong with asking for an achievement to take less than 4~6 months.

There are plenty of achievements that take less than 4~6 months in FFXI. If you dont' like 4~6 months goal choose another goal.

Also it's cheaper/faster to design a content/goal that takes 4~6 months and rely on less version update to keep the game alive. If every goal only need 1 month to accomplish, the dev would have to release content a lot faster than it currently is to keep players playing for more than 4~6 months.

Aeron

08-30-2014, 10:40 PM

There are plenty of achievements that take less than 4~6 months in FFXI. If you dont' like 4~6 months goal choose another goal.

Also it's cheaper/faster to design a content/goal that takes 4~6 months and rely on less version update to keep the game alive. If every goal only need 1 month to accomplish, the dev would have to release content a lot faster than it currently is to keep players playing for more than 4~6 months.

You beat me with this reply, was going to say the same thing. I think its unfair for casual players to ask SE to basically design all content with the idea that its instantly obtainable for them to get it, that is to say with the idea that it could be obtainable in a short amount of time with not a lot of effort required. Also im not suggesting that SE make content that is completely out of reach for all but the super elite players its just that if you want content that would take 4~6 months of steady game play to acquire you need to consider that you aren't a casual player at that point and would have to be considered semi hardcore if that makes any sense.

Long and short of the matter is if you want the best gear you need to put in your best effort.

Demonjustin

08-30-2014, 11:52 PM

Afania

08-31-2014, 02:54 AM

I completed all short term and the few mid-term goals, I have no want to spend that much time for a long term goal, I guess I should quit? That's a much better answer than shortening the time on the long terms when they take outrageous amounts of time longer than anything else in the game.

That's because you're already done with more obtainable long term goal relic......relics are a lot more reasonable to obtain than mythics.

That doesn't mean this game is mythic lv of goals only, it's just that you're done with it.

detlef

08-31-2014, 03:39 AM

I completed all short term and the few mid-term goals, I have no want to spend that much time for a long term goal, I guess I should quit? That's a much better answer than shortening the time on the long terms when they take outrageous amounts of time longer than anything else in the game.Is it really outrageous? The reward is obviously awesome: A best-in-slot weapon for your favorite job that is guaranteed to remain relevant for the life of the game. And you're not willing to put months of work into that? We're not talking years, even you described the process as 4-6 months a few posts earlier. It's not impossible or even improbable for someone like you.

Demonjustin

08-31-2014, 12:23 PM

Is it really outrageous? The reward is obviously awesome: A best-in-slot weapon for your favorite job that is guaranteed to remain relevant for the life of the game. And you're not willing to put months of work into that? We're not talking years, even you described the process as 4-6 months a few posts earlier. It's not impossible or even improbable for someone like you.I do consider it outrageous, yes.

Malithar

08-31-2014, 12:50 PM

I do consider it outrageous, yes.

Considering you've bothered to math out your progress, I find it more outrageous that you've used those two years that badly. I'm confused why you wouldn't at the very least start on assaults early into the progress, rather than obtain captain just two months ago. You may as well be saying you started on your mythic 5 years ago tbh, as it sounds like you've only made any meaningful progress within the past 2ish months.

If it no longer feels like it's worth the work for you, than that's your prerogative. But what work is needed for it amounts to a few hours a day for a couple of months and a pile of gil. If your "work" on it was focused, you'd be done. Not trying to poke fun at Rdm, but maybe if Murg wasn't so underwhelming of a Mythic, you'd feel differently, idk.

Demonjustin

08-31-2014, 02:17 PM

The problem is though that focusing on it is why I don't play right now. I can't focus on something that makes me feel like I'm not getting anywhere with it in any meaningful amount of time or that is simply that boring to me. As I explained in another thread, I often times use short term goals to help me continue with my long term goals, a sort of boost that helps motivate me through my work on the long term goals so I can complete them. If it weren't for that my Excalibur would've never been finished because after the first three stages that weapon was nearly dropped due to being during the VW age when I was losing speed thanks to unrewarding luck content like I am now. The only reason I actually finished Excalibur was thanks to the fact a friend got me in a ADL LS where I was making gil for basically casting sleepga every minute and a half and using chainspell stun once or twice a run.

The reason why my progress over the two years wasn't even enough to hit captain was due to many fails at Assaults that I just couldn't complete alone and the fact the progress rate was disheartening. I felt like even if I took the time to do Assaults it was a drop in the ocean so why bother, wasting a ton of tags by not even using them on top of my failures. I won't say my work on my Mythic was amazing over the two years, but it was work I put in on it in my spare time, and that's one of the things I hate about making a Mythic, in your spare time you can't really make one. It takes a lot of focus on a Mythic to make one, and while I have no problem with that it's the fact of how long that focus must be had that is a problem to me. It's just my opinion on Mythics, sadly though I think I'm going to end up quitting soon as this is unlikely to change and the rest of the game in general just isn't keeping my interest at this point.

FrankReynolds

08-31-2014, 02:34 PM

Some video game design fundamental 101 for you:

I never say anything about I or other players are playing this game for the content but not the reward, I only said I(or most of the MMO players) do the content for items, that's how video game design works, not sure why'd you turn it into "wanting to feeling special".

Because if you were doing it just for the reward, you would do delve. If you were doing it for the content you would do... basically anything that seemed fun. You are doing it for exclusivity. You want the item to remain exclusive. Challenging enough that you can do it, but not so much that the average joe can do it. You want to have something just for you and not for everyone else. Your motives are selfish and have nothing to do with the longevity of the game or keeping old players or any of the other justifications you've attempted.

Game design is always about setting a goal then put obstacles for the players to overcome to accomplish that goal. A game needs BOTH the content/obstacle AND goals to be a game. Whether the game is FFXI or Angry Birds. A game with no goal but just the content isn't a game.

...But we're not arguing about taking away the reward. We're arguing about accessibility. No one has suggested removing mythics from the game in this thread.

So I'm not sure why are you asking me to do the content without goals. If the game designer wants the player to do the content, it needs reward/goals, that's how the games work. This has nothing to do with myself being "noble" or not. I'm just doing the same thing as every other video game player would do.....which is to play a game for the reward/goal. An item/reward is just there for the ppl to do it.

If you were just doing it for the reward, you wouldn't care if I worked harder than you to get it or not. You have other thinly veiled motives for your arguments.

You can keep playing the irrelevant "you just want items to be exclusive" card over and over again, without grasping the most fundamental video game player mentality. Even if I go do the content for no reward cuz I'm out of my mind, 99% of players wouldn't do the content without reward.

A reward that isn't worth the effort is almost exactly the same as no reward at all. Doing 5% more damage is great and all, but working for months and months to do 5% more damage in a fight that you are almost certain to win without it is a waste of time for most people. It's like buying a ferrari to go to the grocery store. There are far better ways to spend your time.

To summarize for you since you fail to understand repeatly:

1) A game needs reward/goal if you want ppl to play.....nobody would do ein/assault if they can't get mythic from it. Nobody would pay a monthly sub if they log on and find no goal to aim for. Game design fundamental 101.

Game design fundamental 101: If the game sucks, nobody cares about the reward. If your flawed view of this rule were even remotely true, then final fantasy would have a billion customers throwing money at the devs to make the mythic quests even harder.

2) Current content goal isn't' long enough to keep most players around for more than 3 months without JP grind/RME grind/afterglow.

Given the fact that there are less than ten thousand mythics and more than 100,000 players, you are completely wrong.

3) Faster mythic= everyone run out of goals faster.

Current mythics = people just don't do them and quit even sooner.

4) Everyone run out of goals faster = population decline faster.

No one wants to do the content because it isn't worth the trouble and or they don't have time = population declines faster

Now if you still want to play the same "you want exclusive items!" repeatly, I won't bother to reply. By your logic anyone playing a video game wants to be special.....if you play Tetris you want to be special cuz you're aiming for high score!

Horrible example. I'm not even going to explain why.

This is incorrect, there are no decision making involved if reward/goal doesn't exist.

When a reward is obviously unobtainable, most people don't even try.

Same thing happens here. People who only have a couple hours a day to play could surely build a mythic eventually, but their entire game time would consist of doing something that sucks and the rest of their gear, quests, friends etc. would be completely ignored. It isn't because they suck, or they don't work hard enough, it's because the quest sucks and they have to choose between that and actually playing the fun part of the game. It's fine if you want to say "well they should sacrifice if they want the best", but there's a point where the sacrifice is not worth it and this is far past that point.

I didn't ask the Mythic to stay tedious, I only ask mythic to require certain time investment so players don't run out of goals fast. I don't mind they change the mythic requirement into current hard/fun content, as long as it still requires same amount of time to obtain.

And here you prove my point. You don't want them to add more goals to keep people from getting bored and quitting. You want them to keep this goal unobtainable for the masses. Like I said, there's no reason why they can't keep adding content and still do double ichor campaigns. If you really wanted goals and achievements, you'd be asking for more goals and achievements. Not trying to keep the same old crap.

There's nothing wrong about wanting to the achievement to be fun or challenging, but there's something wrong about wanting the achievement to come faster.

The amount of time that these quests require is not "Fast" even at half the length and the amount of solo play that it requires is a huge detriment to the social aspect to the game for anyone doing them.

Since you continue to play the "you wanna be special" card on me, I'm going to play the "you just want fast achievement" card on you as well.

So what if I do? I have nothing to prove to you. My boss knows I'm a hard worker and they pay me really well for it as evidence. I don't care at all if the gaming community approves of my work ethics. This is a game. I do this for fun. I don't do it to impress you or anyone else. If I don't thinkk something is fun, I'm not gonna puff out my chest and try to prove to people I can do it. I'll save that for people that pay me.

Hey, you could have name yourself "Jack" or something. :D

Jack was (not surprisingly) already taken. Most common names were.

^^ In response to the above post about how mythics are more trouble then they are worth. I don't know how to tell you how more wrong you could be. Speaking as someone who has a Burtgang ill tell you that the increase in job performance is in terms of lvls of magnitude. There is nothing that even comes close in terms of a wpn for pld.

You can't have your cake and eat it to on this. You can't say oh well the requirements should be lessened and then say oh well the items aren't really worth it anyway. Really sounds like your just being lazy on the issue.

Just because something is worth having doesn't mean it has to be worth the effort. I would love to have a 2014 porsche. I even have the money to buy one. It's a dumb investment. I drive like 50 miles a month. That doesn't mean Porsches aren't worth having. They're great. They're just not worth the effort and sacrifice. I could drive a hyundai and spend the money someplace more useful like another rental property.

Same thing here. It would be great to out parse all the other samurai by 10%. No reason to do it. Shaving 45 seconds off a delve run means nothing. The content doesn't require that weapon or even significantly benefit from it. Burtang is slightly more useful, but again not necessary.

It's a catch 22. The weapons aren't worth this amount of time if they aren't significantly better than they are right now and / or they make it possible to beat something you can't easily beat without them. If they were that much better, it would be completely unfair to the other 90% of the player base who can't obtain one. There's simply no room in the game for crap like this. It's lazy development and that's it.

I mean maybe you only play one job, hate very other job and are just out of stuff to do for that job. But then you should be asking for more content. Not trying to keep other people from getting on your level.

detlef

08-31-2014, 02:49 PM

It's a catch 22. The weapons aren't worth this amount of time if they aren't significantly better than they are right now and / or they make it possible to beat something you can't easily beat without them. If they were that much better, it would be completely unfair to the other 90% of the player base who can't obtain one. There's simply no room in the game for crap like this. It's lazy development and that's it.Whether it's worth it or not is something that varies from player to player. What seems ludicrous and completely unworthy of your time to you might be viewed as a reasonable long term goal to somebody else.

FrankReynolds

08-31-2014, 02:59 PM

Whether it's worth it or not is something that varies from player to player. What seems ludicrous and completely unworthy of your time to you might be viewed as a reasonable long term goal to somebody else.

Maybe, but that doesn't have anything to do with wanting it to take longer. Wanting something and agreeing with the price doesn't mean that it would be better if it cost more or worse if it cost less. The price doesn't make the item any better unless you just want the item in order to have something others can't afford, which is something no one has been willing to admit to so far.

For example: If and when I do buy a porsche, I'll happily admit that I did it because people who can't afford it will be jealous and chicks dig it. I'm not gonna lie and say I did it to shorten my commute or that it has more trunk space or that it represents the achievement of some lofty goal I had.

detlef

08-31-2014, 04:11 PM

Maybe, but that doesn't have anything to do with wanting it to take longer. Wanting something and agreeing with the price doesn't mean that it would be better if it cost more or worse if it cost less. The price doesn't make the item any better unless you just want the item in order to have something others can't afford, which is something no one has been willing to admit to so far.

For example: If and when I do buy a porsche, I'll happily admit that I did it because people who can't afford it will be jealous and chicks dig it. I'm not gonna lie and say I did it to shorten my commute or that it has more trunk space or that it represents the achievement of some lofty goal I had.I'll freely admit that I like having something that not everybody has. It's human nature.

But I also think that the current system is very fair. A permanently good weapon (which is even more valuable now in the ever-changing ilvl landscape) for a reasonable (to me) amount of effort. In these days where you have Delve, Skirmish, and Hard Mode BC drops all at ilvl 119 gear (with higher ilvls to come), it cannot be stressed enough how valuable a weapon is if you can use it for the rest of this game's life.

The requirements have been dumbed down so much over the years (bi-weekly Einherjar became daily, Assaults/Nyzul can now be soloed, ToAU beastman kings have much more reasonable spawn conditions, Salvage is now soloable). In addition, we are so much more powerful now. You can clear AR in half an hour or less if you want to. Alexandrite is plentiful.

We can debate back and forth forever I suppose. To continue your Porsche example, in addition to being cool and unique looking, the car would have to perform better than any other car and also never be surpassed by another vehicle. In addition it would have some special, unique attribute that no other car has. And you'll be able to use it forever, or at least until humans learn how to teleport.

FrankReynolds

08-31-2014, 04:41 PM

I'll freely admit that I like having something that not everybody has. It's human nature.

That's fair enough and I respect that. Most of the comments in these mythic threads insist that the people asking for change are being selfish and refuse to admit that their motivation is just as selfish if not more.

But I also think that the current system is very fair. A permanently good weapon (which is even more valuable now in the ever-changing ilvl landscape) for a reasonable (to me) amount of effort. In these days where you have Delve, Skirmish, and Hard Mode BC drops all at ilvl 119 gear (with higher ilvls to come), it cannot be stressed enough how valuable a weapon is if you can use it for the rest of this game's life.

The requirements have been dumbed down so much over the years (bi-weekly Einherjar became daily, Assaults/Nyzul can now be soloed, ToAU beastman kings have much more reasonable spawn conditions, Salvage is now soloable). In addition, we are so much more powerful now. You can clear AR in half an hour or less if you want to. Alexandrite is plentiful.

We can debate back and forth forever I suppose. To continue your Porsche example, in addition to being cool and unique looking, the car would have to perform better than any other car and also never be surpassed by another vehicle. In addition it would have some special, unique attribute that no other car has. And you'll be able to use it forever, or at least until humans learn how to teleport.

But these weapons aren't good forever. They are frequently surpassed by other weapons, only to be brought back into usefulness by later updates if at all and none of that is guaranteed. Not only that, but they are job specific and jobs frequently fall out of favor as well. And in many cases, the only unique thing about them is more damage. The only time SE has guaranteed anything about these weapons is when they said that they didn't plan to update them past 119, which they have apparently changed their minds about. These weapons have about as much job security as the cast of game of thrones.

And lets not forget that SE may just decide to pull a fast one and decide that you have to kill the new delve mega boss who chain spells death and is immune to stun 10,000 times to upgrade your RME weapon next update just so it can be on par with (and in some cases behind) whatever weapons they add.

detlef

08-31-2014, 05:33 PM

But these weapons aren't good forever. They are frequently surpassed by other weapons, only to be brought back into usefulness by later updates if at all and none of that is guaranteed. Not only that, but they are job specific and jobs frequently fall out of favor as well. And in many cases, the only unique thing about them is more damage. The only time SE has guaranteed anything about these weapons is when they said that they didn't plan to update them past 119, which they have apparently changed their minds about. These weapons have about as much job security as the cast of game of thrones.It's true that there will be times when the weapons aren't 100% best in slot when newer gear is released. I left that part out because it didn't help my narrative (oho). Still, they will always be a competitive option and the best weapons to use when doing the events that drop the new and better stuff. Also, many of the weapons have unique characteristics that will likely keep them relevant perpetually (Yagrush, Carnwenhan, Burtgang, and Nirvana come to mind immediately).

Aside from that, SE has said that these weapons will be kept current. Not 100% of the time, no, but a good deal of the time. What other item in the game represents such a solid and essentially permanent investment?

And lets not forget that SE may just decide to pull a fast one and decide that you have to kill the new delve mega boss who chain spells death and is immune to stun 10,000 times to upgrade your RME weapon next update just so it can be on par with (and in some cases behind) whatever weapons they add.If Pluton/Beitetsu/Boulders are any indication, the upgrade process will seem daunting at first but will soon become trivial compared to earlier upgrade stages. Or it could be exactly as you said. However, if your prediction comes true, a huge portion of the population will be up in arms because it affects Relic and Empyrean weapons in addition to Mythics.

As an aside, you know what I liked about the 119 ilvl process? Upgrade items dropped from everything. People did WKR just to get them. People farmed Delve field NMs just to get them. And there was real money to be made for everybody, casuals and hardcores alike. Eventually SE added them to Hard Mode BCs and the prices tanked. But before that happened, players had a really nice money-maker and in the end, you could upgrade your weapon for dirt cheap if you were patient enough.

Malithar

08-31-2014, 06:08 PM

But these weapons aren't good forever. They are frequently surpassed by other weapons, only to be brought back into usefulness by later updates if at all and none of that is guaranteed.

Your definition of "frequently" is pretty out of the norm there. They were outclassed for a short time twice, once when Empys were a thing and had magian trials taking them further than relics or mythics, and again at the launch of SoE.

Not only that, but they are job specific and jobs frequently fall out of favor as well. And in many cases, the only unique thing about them is more damage.

"Many cases" as in DD mythics. And besides, they actually don't have more damage, they have less. The strength of a DD mythic comes from it's JA enhance and it's AM3, nothing else. If you don't or can't maintain AM3, DD wise you will likely get more from some other 119 weapon. The only DD mythic that's just flat out better than anything else is Blm's, as it's nuking stats are far and above better than anything else available. Smns? Well augged Pet: MAB staff wins on magical BPs. I haven't kept up to date to know if the loss of the 2 levels is worth the switch though. All others are riding on their JA or other benefit, Whm, Pld, Brd, etc.

The only time SE has guaranteed anything about these weapons is when they said that they didn't plan to update them past 119, which they have apparently changed their minds about.

Do you keep up with what they say? Here, lemme help.

The development team will be looking into upgrading R/M/E gear once they have implemented item level 120+. With that said, please understand that we have no concrete details to share in regards to when this (R/M/E upgrades & Item Level 120+) will be happening; just know that there are plans in the works!

That's just the most recent quote. Matsui also said himself (or Camate in a translation) back when they were first revamped that going forward, when the ilvl cap increases, so will RMEs. There might be another short period where they can't be upgraded, or perhaps you do need the new highest tier content cleared, but honestly, so what?

And lets not forget that SE may just decide to pull a fast one and decide that you have to kill the new delve mega boss who chain spells death and is immune to stun 10,000 times to upgrade your RME weapon next update just so it can be on par with (and in some cases behind) whatever weapons they add.

That's as bad of a point to make as Afania calling you out about your name, or wtfever that discussion is about.

The past several pages have been you grasping at straws trying to justify why mythic's requirements should be lessened. You've danced around "they're not worth it" all the way to "the shouldn't take so long." Yet plenty before you, and plenty after you, have, and will, complete them. Either get on board the train for whatever mythic you want, or stop your QQing and focus on other content more suited to your tastes. As you (I think it was you? I'm not bothering to check) said, changing the requirements would be an easy task. The issue is, getting them already IS an easy task, if you're motivated to do so. And everyone of detlef's points stands, if you want it bad enough, get it.

Afania

08-31-2014, 08:42 PM

Because if you were doing it just for the reward, you would do delve. If you were doing it for the content you would do... basically anything that seemed fun. You are doing it for exclusivity. You want the item to remain exclusive. Challenging enough that you can do it, but not so much that the average joe can do it. You want to have something just for you and not for everyone else. Your motives are selfish and have nothing to do with the longevity of the game or keeping old players or any of the other justifications you've attempted.

After pages and pages of argument about game design fundamentals, I still don't understand why you insist that playing a video game and following video game's "game designer design a goal, player go after that goal" is equal to "selfish". There are just zero connection between them.

By your logic, Nintendo made a game called Mario, 90% of my friends/family can't beat Mario, then they can ask Nintendo to nerf the difficulty of Mario. If someone that's against the idea of Mario difficulty nerf then he/she is "selfish"?

If you think the game is too difficult/tedious w/e to a point that you can't beat or obtain and you'd rather not do, just play another game or in FFXI's case, aim for another goal. Why are you asking the game difficulty to be nerfed so some ppl that enjoyed it no longer get to enjoy it?

I think you're just as "selfish" to ask for a difficulty nerf. Only Mrkillface can change the game to what he like and still not "selfish", but I can't present my opinion about a better game because I'm "selfish"?

...But we're not arguing about taking away the reward. We're arguing about accessibility. No one has suggested removing mythics from the game in this thread.

Technically, yes. Changing the amount of effort required for an item is basically changing the nature of the reward. Obtaining a delve2 weapon isn't nearly as satisfying as obtaining a RME, and this isn't my opinion only. Most players in this game has the same opinion about RME.

If you were just doing it for the reward, you wouldn't care if I worked harder than you to get it or not. You have other thinly veiled motives for your arguments.

Why'd SE ban RMT and fish bot? Why would you care if other player get gil/items faster than you with less work? Why would you want to work harder for less?

In MMO, creating a fair environment for every player does matter.

Game design fundamental 101: If the game sucks, nobody cares about the reward. If your flawed view of this rule were even remotely true, then final fantasy would have a billion customers throwing money at the devs to make the mythic quests even harder.

Not sure why you suddenly want to use billion customer as an example to argue against current Mythic. By your logic if SE make Mythic obtainable in 1 day FF11 would have billion customers too.

When a reward is obviously unobtainable, most people don't even try.

You said you have a LS full of mythic owners, then proceed to say "most ppl don't even try"? Ok

Mrkillface doesn't even try*, fixed for you.

I mean maybe you only play one job, hate very other job and are just out of stuff to do for that job. But then you should be asking for more content. Not trying to keep other people from getting on your level.

I did ask for more content, but it's a proven fact that SE isn't going to create that much content. Also I'm not the only one that's only interested in 1~2 mythics. There are other ppl that's not interested in creating 20 mythics, and instead they're looking for some sense of accomplishment after obtaining one. By making Mythics faster to obtain there are no sense of accomplishment for them after they're done.

Since you view Mythic as a complete waste of time, I don't think you'd understand what Mythic meant to be for a lot of ppl anyways. IMO, mythic as obtainable as delve2 weapon just isn't acceptable, and it has nothing to do with myself being selfish/wanting exclusive item or not. Even if I don't have one I'd still say the same. There are plenty of items I do not have, such as Dring. I've never ask for difficulty nerf just so that I can get it. There are plenty of stuff I choose not to get it because I think it suck, such as new skirmish weapon augment, even then I only pointed out the flaws in the design but I still didn't ask for a difficulty nerf.

Keep playing "you're selfish" card all you want, I'm going to counter with the same card.....you're selfish if you ask for a difficulty nerf for any item/accomplishment.

Btw, not sure why are you playing rl card here. I don't have a damn about how you do irl nor asking you to prove anything to me, I'm explaining the game design fundamentals to you and apparently you failed to understand repeatly.

Vanfrano

08-31-2014, 09:44 PM

They will probably add new RME-type weapons for each job by the end of Adoulin storyline, then ease getting a Mythic after a while. I don't think they will do away with long-term goals anyway.

Afania

08-31-2014, 10:11 PM

Mrkillface, let me break down some facts for you:

1)
I want a long term goal for ppl that wants to play more than 3 months, and the goals co-exist with short term goals. So everyone gets appropriate goals.

You want Mythics for everyone.

And somehow I'm "selfish" but you're not? Ok.

2)
You argue that "nobody" want to do a mythic, today when I log on I saw 90% of my friends/ls working on one, some has multiple mythics already.

Nice try, apparently we're playing different games.

3)
You argue that I'm defending for mythic requirement because I want my items to be "exclusive". If you search the forum you can probably find a post of mine defending for harder mythic requirement BEFORE I own one. I don't own Dring but I'm against free pops in log in campaign, I don't own afterglow but I'm against afterglow difficulty nerf, I don't have capped JP in all category but I'm against JP grind being too fast.

I don't defend for harder requirement based on what I need nor wanting my items to be exclusive, I defend for harder requirement in this game based on the fact that I believe MMORPG with a monthly fee should take longer to make progress, IMO current FFXI's pace is too fast. Whether you agree with this POV or not is another issue, but stop trying to change my motive into something else just so that you can win this internet argument.

Afania

08-31-2014, 10:52 PM

That's fair enough and I respect that. Most of the comments in these mythic threads insist that the people asking for change are being selfish and refuse to admit that their motivation is just as selfish if not more.

I would want something that nobody else has, however, this really isn't the ONLY reason why I'm against mythic requirement nerf. There's a difference between wanting something exclusive and post opinions about the game design direction.

For example: I "want" my BLU to outparse every SAM on the server, but I wouldn't pop on the forum and ask SE to boost BLU's output by 200%, because I know it'd be broken. It's a bad design and I wouldn't make such suggestion, even if my want it that way.

MMORPG is about "not every player can obtain the same item", if a player wants better item he/she must spend longer time in the game. Do you think casual players can obtain the highest raid gear in other titles? No. My argument to support longer mythic is purely based on the fact that MMO've been working like that for decades. Why change that when it's already an established formula proven to work in the past on every other title?

It's fact that it's human nature that they want something exclusive, and MMO industry is built entirely based on that fact. There are items that needs LONG TIME to obtain to keep players around in sub based MMO, there are items that costs real money to obtain in F2P titles. By asking items that's no longer exclusive, you're killing the game itself.

Even if I want something that nobody else has, it usually isn't the only reason for me to make comment about the game design direction. Just because you like to make comment about the game direction based on your personal need, doesn't mean everyone else is the same as you.

You kept acting as if my sole motivation is to keep my items exclusive and ignored every other points I've made, that's annoying and cheap.

Even if I don't have a mythic, I'm still against mythic requirement nerf since I've been against the nerf before I own one, just like how I'm against afterglow/Dring requirement nerf without owning one. Not agreeing with my opinion is one thing, which is fine as everyone has different opinions. Twist other's motive into something else to win the argument is another.

Anyways, I'm done with arguing about my motivation. If you insist to believe I'm posting because I want items nobody else has, then so be it. Typing anymore argument about my motivation but not the actual points is just wasting my time and internet resource.

FrankReynolds

09-01-2014, 06:02 AM

Your definition of "frequently" is pretty out of the norm there. They were outclassed for a short time twice, once when Empys were a thing and had magian trials taking them further than relics or mythics, and again at the launch of SoE.

They were outclassed before empy's came out by regular abyssea NM drops. It was quite a while before they became relevant again and when they did, the requirements to get them there weren't exactly a walk in the park. People had to complain for a long hard time to get them updated to where they are. And they will inevitably go through the same process every time they update the iLevel equipment in the future. Quite "Frequently" in relation to the amount of time they take to obtain.

"Many cases" as in DD mythics. And besides, they actually don't have more damage, they have less. The strength of a DD mythic comes from it's JA enhance and it's AM3, nothing else. If you don't or can't maintain AM3, DD wise you will likely get more from some other 119 weapon. The only DD mythic that's just flat out better than anything else is Blm's, as it's nuking stats are far and above better than anything else available. Smns? Well augged Pet: MAB staff wins on magical BPs. I haven't kept up to date to know if the loss of the 2 levels is worth the switch though. All others are riding on their JA or other benefit, Whm, Pld, Brd, etc.

Case and point. Nothing in the game require a well geared BLM or SMN. I've spent a week gearing my BLM since abbysea and it is up to par to beat anything that people would want a BLM for, which is not a lot.

Do you keep up with what they say? Here, lemme help.

I said that they changed their minds and would be updating them in the exact line that you quoted.

That's just the most recent quote. Matsui also said himself (or Camate in a translation) back when they were first revamped that going forward, when the ilvl cap increases, so will RMEs. There might be another short period where they can't be upgraded, or perhaps you do need the new highest tier content cleared, but honestly, so what?

Which is why I said that they will frequently be surpassed by other gear. Hence not permanently the best.

The past several pages have been you grasping at straws trying to justify why mythic's requirements should be lessened. You've danced around "they're not worth it" all the way to "the shouldn't take so long." Yet plenty before you, and plenty after you, have, and will, complete them. Either get on board the train for whatever mythic you want, or stop your QQing and focus on other content more suited to your tastes. As you (I think it was you? I'm not bothering to check) said, changing the requirements would be an easy task. The issue is, getting them already IS an easy task, if you're motivated to do so. And everyone of detlef's points stands, if you want it bad enough, get it.

Yes, mythics are so undeniably easy and fun to make that less than ten thousand have been made by the millions of characters that have played this game over the last 8 years since their invention.

WoW

09-01-2014, 06:22 AM

Because if you were doing it just for the reward, you would do delve. If you were doing it for the content you would do... basically anything that seemed fun. You are doing it for exclusivity. You want the item to remain exclusive. Challenging enough that you can do it, but not so much that the average joe can do it. You want to have something just for you and not for everyone else. Your motives are selfish and have nothing to do with the longevity of the game or keeping old players or any of the other justifications you've attempted.

...But we're not arguing about taking away the reward. We're arguing about accessibility. No one has suggested removing mythics from the game in this thread.

If you were just doing it for the reward, you wouldn't care if I worked harder than you to get it or not. You have other thinly veiled motives for your arguments.

A reward that isn't worth the effort is almost exactly the same as no reward at all. Doing 5% more damage is great and all, but working for months and months to do 5% more damage in a fight that you are almost certain to win without it is a waste of time for most people. It's like buying a ferrari to go to the grocery store. There are far better ways to spend your time.

Game design fundamental 101: If the game sucks, nobody cares about the reward. If your flawed view of this rule were even remotely true, then final fantasy would have a billion customers throwing money at the devs to make the mythic quests even harder.

Given the fact that there are less than ten thousand mythics and more than 100,000 players, you are completely wrong.

Current mythics = people just don't do them and quit even sooner.

No one wants to do the content because it isn't worth the trouble and or they don't have time = population declines faster

Horrible example. I'm not even going to explain why.

When a reward is obviously unobtainable, most people don't even try.

Same thing happens here. People who only have a couple hours a day to play could surely build a mythic eventually, but their entire game time would consist of doing something that sucks and the rest of their gear, quests, friends etc. would be completely ignored. It isn't because they suck, or they don't work hard enough, it's because the quest sucks and they have to choose between that and actually playing the fun part of the game. It's fine if you want to say "well they should sacrifice if they want the best", but there's a point where the sacrifice is not worth it and this is far past that point.

And here you prove my point. You don't want them to add more goals to keep people from getting bored and quitting. You want them to keep this goal unobtainable for the masses. Like I said, there's no reason why they can't keep adding content and still do double ichor campaigns. If you really wanted goals and achievements, you'd be asking for more goals and achievements. Not trying to keep the same old crap.

The amount of time that these quests require is not "Fast" even at half the length and the amount of solo play that it requires is a huge detriment to the social aspect to the game for anyone doing them.

So what if I do? I have nothing to prove to you. My boss knows I'm a hard worker and they pay me really well for it as evidence. I don't care at all if the gaming community approves of my work ethics. This is a game. I do this for fun. I don't do it to impress you or anyone else. If I don't thinkk something is fun, I'm not gonna puff out my chest and try to prove to people I can do it. I'll save that for people that pay me.

Jack was (not surprisingly) already taken. Most common names were.

Just because something is worth having doesn't mean it has to be worth the effort. I would love to have a 2014 porsche. I even have the money to buy one. It's a dumb investment. I drive like 50 miles a month. That doesn't mean Porsches aren't worth having. They're great. They're just not worth the effort and sacrifice. I could drive a hyundai and spend the money someplace more useful like another rental property.

Same thing here. It would be great to out parse all the other samurai by 10%. No reason to do it. Shaving 45 seconds off a delve run means nothing. The content doesn't require that weapon or even significantly benefit from it. Burtang is slightly more useful, but again not necessary.

It's a catch 22. The weapons aren't worth this amount of time if they aren't significantly better than they are right now and / or they make it possible to beat something you can't easily beat without them. If they were that much better, it would be completely unfair to the other 90% of the player base who can't obtain one. There's simply no room in the game for crap like this. It's lazy development and that's it.

I mean maybe you only play one job, hate very other job and are just out of stuff to do for that job. But then you should be asking for more content. Not trying to keep other people from getting on your level.

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/1512/15127450/2587740-9809699943-24341.jpg

As it pertains to the original question; not sure SE cares; ppl are paying, hence it is a non-issue. They do not have to implement our suggestions, nor hear them out. As long as ppl are paying..........I mean......wouldn't most ppl do the same? Why go out of their way and diverge from the original "plans" to hear out the customer when they appear satisfied with the product? Money speaks louder than words. If you are paying, then you are happy (in their eyes perhaps). ppl do not have to play video games (Unless it is your job).

FrankReynolds

09-01-2014, 06:44 AM

After pages and pages of argument about game design fundamentals, I still don't understand why you insist that playing a video game and following video game's "game designer design a goal, player go after that goal" is equal to "selfish". There are just zero connection between them.

By your logic, Nintendo made a game called Mario, 90% of my friends/family can't beat Mario, then they can ask Nintendo to nerf the difficulty of Mario. If someone that's against the idea of Mario difficulty nerf then he/she is "selfish"?

Yes. You are that kid who refused to show his friends how to get 99 lives by simply jumping on the same turtle a hundred times because you wanted to be the only one who could beat it. Selfish.

If you think the game is too difficult/tedious w/e to a point that you can't beat or obtain and you'd rather not do, just play another game or in FFXI's case, aim for another goal. Why are you asking the game difficulty to be nerfed so some ppl that enjoyed it no longer get to enjoy it?

I didn't ask for them to change the content at all. Just the amount of time that you are required to do it. You are still free to do it as much as you want. Nothing is being taken from you but foolish pride.

I think you're just as "selfish" to ask for a difficulty nerf. Only Mrkillface can change the game to what he like and still not "selfish", but I can't present my opinion about a better game because I'm "selfish"?

My selfishness doesn't exclude others from enjoying this aspect of the game. In fact it allows more people to enjoy it.

Technically, yes. Changing the amount of effort required for an item is basically changing the nature of the reward. Obtaining a delve2 weapon isn't nearly as satisfying as obtaining a RME, and this isn't my opinion only. Most players in this game has the same opinion about RME.

Most players meaning you.

Why'd SE ban RMT and fish bot? Why would you care if other player get gil/items faster than you with less work? Why would you want to work harder for less?

In MMO, creating a fair environment for every player does matter.

Who said I was upset about other players getting things faster than me? I have three characters that can happily farm mythics. There aren't many people who could get one faster even if they wanted to. That's not the point. Just because I can afford something doesn't mean it isn't overpriced.

Not sure why you suddenly want to use billion customer as an example to argue against current Mythic. By your logic if SE make Mythic obtainable in 1 day FF11 would have billion customers too.

Maybe. Like I sadi, I've yet to see anyone asking them to make mythics harder. Only people asking to make them easier. Why don't you ask them to make them take 6 years to build? Because that's too long for YOU? I'm pretty sure that whatever works for you is perfect and if it doesn't work for 90% of the other people, well that's just too bad. Am I right?

You said you have a LS full of mythic owners, then proceed to say "most ppl don't even try"? Ok

I also know a bunch of asian female basketball players. That does not mean that most basket ball players are asian women. I know a bunch of rappers. Most people are not rappers. I know a bunch of doctors. Most people are not doctors. Do you understand yet? Or should I give more examples?

You not so cleverly ignored the part where I also know a crap load of people who are not Mythic owners and cannot or have no intention of ever being so based mostly on the requirements of doing so.

Mrkillface doesn't even try*, fixed for you.

Well I already said that, so now you're just repeating stuff. On the other hand, links that you provided prove that I am part of the large majority that chooses not to so I'm not sure how you think this helps your argument. I mean all you're really saying is that even someone like myself who can do it chooses not to because it's a poorly designed content in regards to time / effort / reward.

I did ask for more content, but it's a proven fact that SE isn't going to create that much content. Also I'm not the only one that's only interested in 1~2 mythics. There are other ppl that's not interested in creating 20 mythics, and instead they're looking for some sense of accomplishment after obtaining one. By making Mythics faster to obtain there are no sense of accomplishment for them after they're done.

So it's fine because you have enough time to create one and you don't want the rest.

Since you view Mythic as a complete waste of time, I don't think you'd understand what Mythic meant to be for a lot of ppl anyways.

According to SE, they were supposed to be easier to obtain than relics... they were supposed to be fun... they were supposed to be a lot of things.

IMO, mythic as obtainable as delve2 weapon just isn't acceptable,

Oh, did you think we wre asking for them to be as easy as delve? You're posting in the wrong thread. People here are just asking for 3 day double ichor campaigns and / or buying some with sparks. No one suggested anything even remotely near delve.

and it has nothing to do with myself being selfish/wanting exclusive item or not. Even if I don't have one I'd still say the same. There are plenty of items I do not have, such as Dring. I've never ask for difficulty nerf just so that I can get it. There are plenty of stuff I choose not to get it because I think it suck, such as new skirmish weapon augment, even then I only pointed out the flaws in the design but I still didn't ask for a difficulty nerf.

So when I choose not to do it, I am lazy but when you choose not to do something...

Keep playing "you're selfish" card all you want, I'm going to counter with the same card.....you're selfish if you ask for a difficulty nerf for any item/accomplishment.

Maybe I am. Oh well. My selfish argument is still better than yours.

Btw, not sure why are you playing rl card here. I don't have a damn about how you do irl nor asking you to prove anything to me, I'm explaining the game design fundamentals to you and apparently you failed to understand repeatly.

I'm not sure why you think you are an authority on game design fundamentals, or why you think that you should be telling other people how they work. You're just another person on the internet. You have no more insight or influence on the subject than any other random person with a keyboard.

Afania

09-01-2014, 09:58 AM

Repeating the same thing and twist Afania's argument into something else again

https://i.imgflip.com/1bgw.jpg

No new argument to support faster mythics besides your personal taste? K. How disappointing, I thought at least you can comprehend other's post.

And holy crap at twisting my words again, when'd I said I want mythic takes 6 years to build? I said 4~6 MONTHS.And no I didn't ask for 6 years because I have issue with how long it takes, if I want a 6 years goal I can build afterglow, I don't need to change mythics for it. Again you're twisting my motivation into something else.

I'm not an authority at game design, but at least I presented an idea about why X design is better, unlike you, the only argument you use was "you're selfish" after 5 pages. Which is irrelevant to game design.

FrankReynolds

09-01-2014, 01:14 PM

https://i.imgflip.com/1bgw.jpg

No new argument to support faster mythics besides your personal taste? K. How disappointing, I thought at least you can comprehend other's post.

I don't need a new argument. My first one was fine. You haven't proven it wrong, why would I change it?

And holy crap at twisting my words again, when'd I said I want mythic takes 6 years to build? I said 4~6 MONTHS.And no I didn't ask for 6 years because I have issue with how long it takes, if I want a 6 years goal I can build afterglow, I don't need to change mythics for it. Again you're twisting my motivation into something else.

I never said you wanted a 6 year mythic. I think there is some sort of communication error here.

I'm not an authority at game design, but at least I presented an idea about why X design is better, unlike you, the only argument you use was "you're selfish" after 5 pages. Which is irrelevant to game design.

Putting rewards that 100% of your customers want in content that only 10% of your customers are entertained by enough and / or have time to actually do is pretty bad design. The reason is incredibly obvious. I agree. It really shouldn't take 5 pages to figure it out.

Camiie

09-01-2014, 09:43 PM

Afania

09-01-2014, 09:44 PM

I don't need a new argument. My first one was fine. You haven't proven it wrong, why would I change it?

Except you don't HAVE an argument, that's why you need a new one. You're asking for a change, a change(no exclusive items) that's different direction from other MMO on the market, thus you should tell us why a change can increase the profit of this game.

For 5 pages your only argument was twisting my motivation into something else and your personal subjective opinion about what makes the game fun.

If you want to argue that easy mythic would result a increase sub number in a short amount of time, maybe I'd agree with you. WoW is correct that some ppl may sub a bit longer just to build one.

What about after he's done in 1 month? What about after 3 years? When 50% of the players own 10 mythics, what is THEIR motivation to keep playing?

Further more, that means any future content added into the game would not offer enough reward for ppl to do it.

If 10% of the players own mythic, 90% of the players would still want to do new content for a good weapon. Those 10% mythic owners may also do new content for jobs they don't have mythic.

If 50% of the players own 20 mythics, when next tier of content is out, only 50% of ppl would do the new content, rest of the playerbase would just sit in town complaining about how boring this game is because gears from the new content don't beat their mythic........

And they quit.

If you look at this from a bigger picture, not how sub goes after 3 months, but how sub goes after 3+ years, it'd hurt the game in the long run.

You can keep twisting my motivation over and over again, but it's not an argument that can make the game better, it only make you feel like winning an internet argument.

Putting rewards that 100% of your customers want in content that only 10% of your customers are entertained by enough and / or have time to actually do is pretty bad design. The reason is incredibly obvious. I agree. It really shouldn't take 5 pages to figure it out.

Except that's not how MMO works. MMO is about having exclusive items for different tiers of players, every other titles have been doing that for past 15 years...you aren't getting the best items in other MMO without beating the highest tier raid as well. It shouldn't take 5 pages nor a masters in game design to know that following the winning formula established in the industry is the best direction.

Lithera

09-02-2014, 12:26 AM

Man, I think the poor OP should change the title of this thread to this was a complaint about Dev reply but now is yet another thread about mythics. /comfort to the OP. Could someone please lock this thing?

Balloon

09-02-2014, 12:33 AM

Lithera

09-02-2014, 12:35 AM

Lithera

09-02-2014, 12:43 AM

Unfortunately, there isn't much more to say about the OPs topic. We've gotten a couple more 'I checked; there's no plans.' Some attempts at some more indepth answers. There's not anything to say about it, and if it weren't in this thread it'd just be in another.

Oh I know, but at least those threads normally started talking about something closely related to mythics. This thread tried to become a comic relief thread about the many ways the dev can say they have no plans. Yes I have already slapped my self for replying to Camiie's post.

Afania

09-02-2014, 12:43 AM

This may be a strange point of view coming from an average player, but I think the game would have been better served had Relics, Empyreans, and Mythics been made MORE difficult to the point that they truly would be a rarity. That way content would never have been developed with their existence in mind, and people wouldn't feel they absolutely had to have one just to play certain jobs. Sure there would be some linkshells and groups that still demanded them, but they'd no longer be the norm. But, like SE, I could be vastly underestimating the jerkass nature and unrealistic expectations of the community at large.

This isn't strange POV at all, this is the reason why RME became a requirement to play the job before SoA. We already went through the era that everyone own a legendary, it's a proven fact that it made the game unplayable for ppl without one. Been saying that 5 pages ago.

The only problem though is SE made some of the mythics at least be the best weapon for a select few jobs. So the min/maxers will still call you gimped even if you have the best for said job in all but weapon because you don't have one. Also, yes you are underestimating the jerkass and unrealistic expectations of the community.

Real min/maxers are truly minority in this game, even less than mythic owners. Why do you care what they say? Personally I've never meet any real min/maxers in my life.

Camiie

09-02-2014, 01:19 AM

The only problem though is SE made some of the mythics at least be the best weapon for a select few jobs. So the min/maxers will still call you gimped even if you have the best for said job in all but weapon because you don't have one. Also, yes you are underestimating the jerkass and unrealistic expectations of the community.

I guess in my (final) fantasy world if, say Ochain and Daurdabla, really were unobtainable by 99.99% of the player base then there would have had to be more viable alternatives to allow players to get stuff done. I realize that's starting to sort of happen now, but there was a long time where there really was no perceived second best in slot.

detlef

09-02-2014, 03:58 AM

Putting rewards that 100% of your customers want in content that only 10% of your customers are entertained by enough and / or have time to actually do is pretty bad design. The reason is incredibly obvious. I agree. It really shouldn't take 5 pages to figure it out.I tend to agree with a lot of your posts on these forums. But you keep arguing that:

A. The weapons are not strong enough to be worth the effort.
B. The effort is too great.
C. The grind is too boring.

Maybe you have another point that I missed. To address the strength of the weapons, Burtgang, Yagrush, Carnwenhan, and Nirvana provide incredibly unique and powerful attributes that will probably make them useable forever. Kogarasumaru, Ryunohige, Conquerer, Glanzfaust, and Kenkonken are all best in slot DD weapons. Laevateinn and Tupsimati are best in slot nuking and macc staves. I don't know where Liberator, Terpsichore, Tizona, Vajra, and Aymur stand in terms of DD potential but at least half of them are likely best in slot DD weapons, again with unique bonuses you can only find on here.

These are true ultimate weapons. Unique models (this matters to a lot of people, and there's nothing wrong with that), powerful performance. And I've already acknowledged that at some point they will be surpassed but the devs have assured us that they will allow them to be upgraded as the ilvl cap increases. The upgrade process might be easy. It might be so hard you piss blood. But if it's too annoying or difficult, the JPs will complain and they'll bring it back down. So I don't think it's worth worrying about.

Maybe that's not enough for you. But I'm reminded of your posts in the Alluvian Skirmish thread.

I don't care if it's instant gratification. I just want it to be guaranteed gratification. It doesn't have to take a day or two, but lets be realistic. If it's probably gonna get outclassed by something else in a month or two, it shouldn't cost a butt load of money and or time. Making an event take 3 hours and you're done or making an event where you do it forever and never get what you want are not the only options for keeping people interested.

Let's be honest here. Those 8~ million worth of stones you spent are probably gonna be wasted when they release the +1 version that wipes all your augments in September.You know what Mythics are? Guaranteed gratification that aren't going to be outclassed permanently by a +1 version in September.

I have much less to say about the magnitude and fun of the grind. I maintain that just like anyone can cook, anyone can make a Mythic. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of time it takes is a drop in the bucket, a mere fraction of the time you've spent playing FFXI. Demonjustin estimated 4-6 months. What's 4-6 months if you've played for 8 years?

The tasks can all be accomplished with a PT or less, which means that you can progress casually, at your own pace. Sure, Einherjar, Salvage, Nyzul, and Assaults are all easy. But that means that anybody of any level can make progress. No gear check whatsoever. You can come back from a 5-year break, equip yourself in sparks gear, and make a Mythic if you want. As casually as you want.

FrankReynolds

09-02-2014, 05:40 AM

I tend to agree with a lot of your posts on these forums. But you keep arguing that:

A. The weapons are not strong enough to be worth the effort.
B. The effort is too great.
C. The grind is too boring.

Maybe you have another point that I missed. To address the strength of the weapons, Burtgang, Yagrush, Carnwenhan, and Nirvana provide incredibly unique and powerful attributes that will probably make them useable forever. Kogarasumaru, Ryunohige, Conquerer, Glanzfaust, and Kenkonken are all best in slot DD weapons. Laevateinn and Tupsimati are best in slot nuking and macc staves. I don't know where Liberator, Terpsichore, Tizona, Vajra, and Aymur stand in terms of DD potential but at least half of them are likely best in slot DD weapons, again with unique bonuses you can only find on here.

These are true ultimate weapons. Unique models (this matters to a lot of people, and there's nothing wrong with that), powerful performance. And I've already acknowledged that at some point they will be surpassed but the devs have assured us that they will allow them to be upgraded as the ilvl cap increases. The upgrade process might be easy. It might be so hard you piss blood. But if it's too annoying or difficult, the JPs will complain and they'll bring it back down. So I don't think it's worth worrying about.

Being upgraded does not = staying best in class. You could very easily see a dagger from new content that gives +60% song duration and Carnwenhan only getting bumped up to 55%. They said they would be brought up to current iLevel. Not that they would be the best in class. This is SE we're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they changed the pecking order of best in class RME weapons just to make you go build something else for the jobs you already built mythics for, or just made the weapons from new content slightly better.

Maybe that's not enough for you. But I'm reminded of your posts in the Alluvian Skirmish thread.

It's not. I can already beat everything without them. Carn is the only one that interests me at all really, because that duration makes the job way easier to play. If there was something in the game that you just had to have one of these to have a reasonable hope of winning, maybe. But like cammie said. They shouldn't be designing content around these and apparently they have stopped doing so.

You know what Mythics are? Guaranteed gratification that aren't going to be outclassed permanently by a +1 version in September.

They guaranteed they would be updated. I didn't see anything saying they would all be the best forever. You never know what SE is gonna do. Even if the weapons stay best stat wise, they could do something dumb like give an ability that caps song duration without carn, or a new slew of OAT weapons that beat them or change ws properties in a way that makes them suck.

I have much less to say about the magnitude and fun of the grind. I maintain that just like anyone can cook, anyone can make a Mythic. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of time it takes is a drop in the bucket, a mere fraction of the time you've spent playing FFXI. Demonjustin estimated 4-6 months. What's 4-6 months if you've played for 8 years?

Incidentally, I was a chef for 12 years. A lot of people cannot cook. :P

The tasks can all be accomplished with a PT or less, which means that you can progress casually, at your own pace. Sure, Einherjar, Salvage, Nyzul, and Assaults are all easy. But that means that anybody of any level can make progress. No gear check whatsoever. You can come back from a 5-year break, equip yourself in sparks gear, and make a Mythic if you want. As casually as you want.

Everything is easy until it's not. The whole game is easy if you put it that way. Being easy and being something that people want to pay money every month to do are not even remotely the same thing though.

FrankReynolds

09-02-2014, 06:01 AM

Except you don't HAVE an argument, that's why you need a new one. You're asking for a change, a change(no exclusive items) that's different direction from other MMO on the market, thus you should tell us why a change can increase the profit of this game.

I'm talking about taking something that takes 6 months and making it take slightly less. I don't know what you're talking about, but you go with your bad self.

If you want to argue that easy mythic would result a increase sub number in a short amount of time, maybe I'd agree with you. WoW is correct that some ppl may sub a bit longer just to build one.

What about after he's done in 1 month? What about after 3 years? When 50% of the players own 10 mythics, what is THEIR motivation to keep playing?

If I'm not going to build a mythic I guess I have to quit right? I mean Technically I am finished with all mythics I could ever want because I never intend to build one. Now what? I have all the mythics I will ever want. How have you solved my problem?

Further more, that means any future content added into the game would not offer enough reward for ppl to do it.

Says who? You? Did you decide that the weapon slot was the only thing that would ever matter in the game for the rest of it's duration? Are you head developer? Are you canceling development of all new armor, merit categories, job points? Spells, abilities etc?

Tell me now so I don't waste all week stock piling job points and earning gil for nothing.

If 10% of the players own mythic, 90% of the players would still want to do new content for a good weapon. Those 10% mythic owners may also do new content for jobs they don't have mythic.

According to you they can't. It's mythic or quit. They already have all the things and nothing left to live for but mythics.

If 50% of the players own 20 mythics, when next tier of content is out, only 50% of ppl would do the new content, rest of the playerbase would just sit in town complaining about how boring this game is because gears from the new content don't beat their mythic........

And they quit.

Because again, you are head developer and you have cancelled all updates not pertaining to the weapon slot. Got it.

If you look at this from a bigger picture, not how sub goes after 3 months, but how sub goes after 3+ years, it'd hurt the game in the long run.

Only if you disable everything but the weapon slot and make everything not a mythic suck too bad to beat anything.

You can keep twisting my motivation over and over again, but it's not an argument that can make the game better, it only make you feel like winning an internet argument.

I won the argument a long time ago. I just want to see what crazy stuff you'll say at this point.

Except that's not how MMO works. MMO is about having exclusive items for different tiers of players, every other titles have been doing that for past 15 years...you aren't getting the best items in other MMO without beating the highest tier raid as well. It shouldn't take 5 pages nor a masters in game design to know that following the winning formula established in the industry is the best direction.

You don't even know what the industry standard is. You are again pretending to be an authority on something you know nothing about.

Afania

09-02-2014, 09:29 AM

Stuff that mostly makes 0 sense blah blah

At this point of time I don't even know what you want to argue about anymore except faster mythics, I read every word you said and I couldn't understand what you're really trying to say, lol.

However, about your opinion on "ppl still gonna play the content without weapon slot!", look at alluvion skirmish, it's dead because of RME/delve weapons. You don't need to be the authority of the industry to see how other titles work.

Balloon

09-02-2014, 10:06 AM

At this point of time I don't even know what you want to argue about anymore, I read every word you said and I couldn't understand what you're really trying to say, lol.

However, about your opinion on "ppl still gonna play the content without weapon slot!", look at alluvion skirmish, it's dead because of RME/delve weapons

He said that people would still play content that doesn't reward weapons, but instead rewards gear/accessories/etc. You complain about people misrepresenting your argument when you do it yourself..

Are you canceling development of all new armor, merit categories, job points? Spells, abilities etc?

Tell me now so I don't waste all week stock piling job points and earning gil for nothing.

You also did it with the whole 6 year thing and have done it to me in previous threads. I'm not sure if you do it on purpose... I'm sure you think you know more about Game Design though, when in reality you're postulating on the exact same things we are with the exact same information we have.

As for this argument, it's honestly too long and I don't care enough to put my eggs in either basket. I'll never get a mythic. I don't play frequently or maintain the necessary amount of self control to do the events every day. But I think it's incredibly erroneous to compare the acquisition of a Relic or Mythic to other content in other MMOs. Don't pretend all players that have a mythic are good, a lot of players that have mythics are good, but I know some stinkers too. It's not hard. It's long and tedious and requires dedication.

It is not hard.

Other games have you complete newer content to get newer weapons. Even games like FFXIV, which do tier you through content to get a relic and then zenith and then whatever the hell glowy version requires you to actually do stuff. The mythic quest involves gathering 30,000 things via level 99 content or gil, spam level 75/99 content, kill level 75 HNMs and then eventually gather some beitetsu. Hardly a task worthy of the best weapons in the game.

I don't think Relic/Mythics should have been taken past 75. Then they shouldn't have been taken past 99. I think they're harmful to the game overall. A lot of this content was clearly designed around vertical scaling, as depressing as that is, and it's incredibly hard to get someone to care about weapons if they have the best ever weapons already.

detlef

09-02-2014, 01:39 PM

Being upgraded does not = staying best in class. You could very easily see a dagger from new content that gives +60% song duration and Carnwenhan only getting bumped up to 55%. They said they would be brought up to current iLevel. Not that they would be the best in class. This is SE we're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they changed the pecking order of best in class RME weapons just to make you go build something else for the jobs you already built mythics for, or just made the weapons from new content slightly better.I'd be inclined to agree with you if Legato Dagger were better than it is. If the ilvl 109 option only adds 5% duration, it's hard to imagine the devs introducing another higher ilvl weapon that competes with Mythic for song duration.

It's not. I can already beat everything without them. Carn is the only one that interests me at all really, because that duration makes the job way easier to play. If there was something in the game that you just had to have one of these to have a reasonable hope of winning, maybe. But like cammie said. They shouldn't be designing content around these and apparently they have stopped doing so. Yes, I agree that content should not be designed around some significant portion of the population owning Mythic weapons. I also agree that you don't need them to win anything.

They guaranteed they would be updated. I didn't see anything saying they would all be the best forever. You never know what SE is gonna do. Even if the weapons stay best stat wise, they could do something dumb like give an ability that caps song duration without carn, or a new slew of OAT weapons that beat them or change ws properties in a way that makes them suck.I did say that Mythics are "guaranteed gratification that aren't going to be outclassed permanently." I've already acknowledged that there will be times in the future where some Mythics may be temporarily shelved in favor of newer weapons. But the duration of that time is entirely up to the player. We don't know how hard the upgrade process will be but people push through it.

Incidentally, I was a chef for 12 years. A lot of people cannot cook. :P

Everything is easy until it's not. The whole game is easy if you put it that way. Being easy and being something that people want to pay money every month to do are not even remotely the same thing though.I don't think you really addressed my points with these responses. Anyone can make a Mythic. It's not fun for everybody, and the process may only be appreciated by old school grinders. But it's entirely possible for anybody to do if they really want it. I just don't think people really sit down and map out the necessary effort. If they did, they would see that yes, it may be a long process but if you've played the game for 8 years, what's another half year?

Also, like you said, you don't need them to beat any content in the game. So if they are completely unneeded to win but also possible for anybody to make then what's wrong with things the way they are?

FrankReynolds

09-02-2014, 03:26 PM

I'd be inclined to agree with you if Legato Dagger were better than it is. If the ilvl 109 option only adds 5% duration, it's hard to imagine the devs introducing another higher ilvl weapon that competes with Mythic for song duration.

You're probably right on that particular weapon. Some of the other weapons though.... I don't know.

I did say that Mythics are "guaranteed gratification that aren't going to be outclassed permanently." I've already acknowledged that there will be times in the future where some Mythics may be temporarily shelved in favor of newer weapons. But the duration of that time is entirely up to the player. We don't know how hard the upgrade process will be but people push through it.

But you're assuming they will be updated to be the best eventually and not just updated to be "On par" with the best. There's really no guarantee that some new gear item or weapon won't create a situation where mythics aren't as good, ie. ionis zones, or when wearing some specific new armor or against new monsters or only useful when a certain trait is needed like -emnity and generally not as good the rest of the time. SE actually said something to that effect a while back when they were planning 119 upgrades.

I don't think you really addressed my points with these responses. Anyone can make a Mythic. It's not fun for everybody, and the process may only be appreciated by old school grinders. But it's entirely possible for anybody to do if they really want it. I just don't think people really sit down and map out the necessary effort. If they did, they would see that yes, it may be a long process but if you've played the game for 8 years, what's another half year?

I was more or less joking about the cooking thing, but like I said. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will want to or that you should. It literally doesn't matter how "easy" it is. It matters if it's worth doing. Whether it's worth doing is in the mind of the person doing it. A lot of people don't like doing it. Putting the pinnacle items in your game in something that people don't like to do is just bad. Even if people don't need that item. Even if it's "Easy". it's still bad business to put it there.

Also, like you said, you don't need them to beat any content in the game. So if they are completely unneeded to win but also possible for anybody to make then what's wrong with things the way they are?

Because if I'm gonna pay for a game, I want The guy with the best wits and the best skill to get things faster. I don't want the guy with the most time and the highest tolerance for tedium to get things that skill and wit cannot reasonably obtain. The game of "Who can wait in line the longest" doesn't sound fun. I mean I'm not saying there isn't a video game market for the unemployed OCD crowd who just needs something / anything to do. I just think it's incredibly small, unreliable market. SE can cater to that crowd if they want, But I'll definitely be opposed to that sort of stuff every time.

And to reiterate, I'm not saying that stuff should be obtainable in a day. I'm just saying that the amount it takes is too much. I mean lets be honest. The part we're talking about is the part that basically requires you to spend all your time shouting for people to do it. That's not even really playing the game. Even if you just love wiping the whole zone in einherjar in 5 minutes once a day or clicking lamps in Nyzul a million times, nobody likes just standing around shouting.

detlef

09-02-2014, 04:06 PM

But you're assuming they will be updated to be the best eventually and not just updated to be "On par" with the best. There's really no guarantee that some new gear item or weapon won't create a situation where mythics aren't as good, ie. ionis zones, or when wearing some specific new armor or against new monsters or only useful when a certain trait is needed like -emnity and generally not as good the rest of the time. SE actually said something to that effect a while back when they were planning 119 upgrades.Fair point, even if the weapons are upgrade we don't know if they'll be the best or just on par or competitive. I think they will be at or near the top but again there's no way to get into the devs' heads.

I was more or less joking about the cooking thing, but like I said. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will want to or that you should. It literally doesn't matter how "easy" it is. It matters if it's worth doing. Whether it's worth doing is in the mind of the person doing it. A lot of people don't like doing it. Putting the pinnacle items in your game in something that people don't like to do is just bad. Even if people don't need that item. Even if it's "Easy". it's still bad business to put it there.

Because if I'm gonna pay for a game, I want The guy with the best wits and the best skill to get things faster. I don't want the guy with the most time and the highest tolerance for tedium to get things that skill and wit cannot reasonably obtain. The game of "Who can wait in line the longest" doesn't sound fun. I mean I'm not saying there isn't a video game market for the unemployed OCD crowd who just needs something / anything to do. I just think it's incredibly small, unreliable market. SE can cater to that crowd if they want, But I'll definitely be opposed to that sort of stuff every time.

And to reiterate, I'm not saying that stuff should be obtainable in a day. I'm just saying that the amount it takes is too much. I mean lets be honest. The part we're talking about is the part that basically requires you to spend all your time shouting for people to do it. That's not even really playing the game. Even if you just love wiping the whole zone in einherjar in 5 minutes once a day or clicking lamps in Nyzul a million times, nobody likes just standing around shouting.Well, it seems we just have a difference in opinion on what people are willing to put up with to reach a goal and what people find gratifying and satisfying.

I think the Mythic upgrade process is fine as is, but I wouldn't necessarily complain if they eased things up a little. Mostly I'd be in favor of QoL improvements like no Einherjar PT minimum, faster Assault tags, Nyzul lamp adjustments, Alexandrite 100/1000 pieces or being able to retrieve alex from the Qiqirn. Things like that.

I don't want Mythics to become as common as level 85/90 Empyrean weapons during the VW era. That's definitely something that would upset me a little.

FrankReynolds

09-02-2014, 04:54 PM

Mostly I'd be in favor of QoL improvements like no Einherjar PT minimum, faster Assault tags, Nyzul lamp adjustments, Alexandrite 100/1000 pieces or being able to retrieve alex from the Qiqirn. Things like that.

I don't want Mythics to become as common as level 85/90 Empyrean weapons during the VW era. That's definitely something that would upset me a little.

That's what I mean. I'm not saying they should cut it to 1,000 alex and a win each in nyzul/einherjar. I'm just saying that the event needs QoL changes. Double Ichor days would be nice. They wouldn't suddenly make building a mythic into a one day affair. But they're nice for the guy who is already doing it. Allowing people to solo Nyzul / einherjar isn't going to allow a guy to build his weapon twice as fast. It just cuts down the chatlog spam and wasted time. The guy is still going once per day. But now, he's not bugging everyone about it. Those sort of things don't make the quest so easy that everyone will do it, they just make is less horrible so that a few more people will do it. Small changes make a world of difference.

And while were on the subject of QOL, isn't it high time that they did away with the inventory clogging and just made zeni accumulate every time you took a picture like cruor/plasm/exp does when you kill a mob? Do we really need the inventory clogging convoluted system of trading in actual items for points? Even with all these new bags, holding all that stuff is annoying and unnecessary. The item pics used for pankration should be a separate device / system entirely.

Afania

09-02-2014, 10:45 PM

He said that people would still play content that doesn't reward weapons, but instead rewards gear/accessories/etc. You complain about people misrepresenting your argument when you do it yourself..

I didn't misrepresent his argument, and I understand what he said just fine. I just don't find it'd work in future update. The content still has to include weapon for those without mythic, on the other hand most ppl wouldn't be interested in the content because they have mythics. That's reason why legion was unpopular, because half of the weapons from legion was inferior to empy, and most endgame player has empy. And yet SE still has to implement weapons as reward in new content.

You can't rely on armor/accessory for future update only.

As for this argument, it's honestly too long and I don't care enough to put my eggs in either basket. I'll never get a mythic. I don't play frequently or maintain the necessary amount of self control to do the events every day. But I think it's incredibly erroneous to compare the acquisition of a Relic or Mythic to other content in other MMOs. Don't pretend all players that have a mythic are good, a lot of players that have mythics are good, but I know some stinkers too. It's not hard. It's long and tedious and requires dedication.

Why do you(and Mrkillface) bring up this "hard" argument in mythic over and over again. I'm not talking about difficulty, I don't care about the difficulty, I only care about longevity. If you want to talk about difficulty, killing trash mobs in Ein is as easy as killing NMs in tree, I don't think that's even relevant in this discussion.....unless you're very eager to find an excuse not to do it.

It is not hard.
Other games have you complete newer content to get newer weapons. Even games like FFXIV, which do tier you through content to get a relic and then zenith and then whatever the hell glowy version requires you to actually do stuff.

Do lol Fate with a weapon equipped for KI you mean.

I don't think Relic/Mythics should have been taken past 75. Then they shouldn't have been taken past 99.

I'm not sure about the above statement tbh, I have a mixed feeling toward the existence of RME, I'd like to explain why though, since I'm not sure if you're around during 75 era.

Old Relic/mythics used to take a LOT more effort to obtain than current mythic, and designed as some sort of "ultimate weapon" that takes years to obtain. When SE released empy after Abyssea expansion, those weapons were outclassed by empy, AND 10x harder to obtain. So the old relic owners Q.Q on the forum about their weapon being outclassed by an easier option. Because it wasn't fair for them to spend more time and effort and ended up with an inferior weapon. So SE buffed relic and mythic past 75.

As the time goes on, Mythic and relics became a lot easier to obtain so more ppl have them, as SE move on to ilv119, they have to adjust RME to 119 as well or else it wouldn't be fair for them as well.

If RME never exist, then it wouldn't be an issue at all. Since SE already created RME to be a time consuming long term goal so it's only logical for it to stay relevant forever. There are only 2 options for legendary weapons: 1) Don't put weapons like this in game at all 2) Keep it relevant forever. You can't leavet at 75 or 99, RME didn't get an update after SoA release is the reason why this game lost half of the sub in 2013.

IMO, having RME in FFXI is one of the more unique aspect of FFXI. Instead of spend some time to grind a weapon you'd need to toss next update, there's another type of weapon that's always the best as ilv go up, a virtual weapon with emotional attachment and personality.

I don't think I'm an expert in game design, I just play the games and analyze them based on the facts, what makes them successful and what makes them fail.

Every MMO is built upon "not everyone can have every item", fact. Raid based MMO's like that, Diablo's like that, F2P's like that.

FFXI lost sub when RME didn't get an update......fact as well.

FrankReynolds

09-03-2014, 12:29 AM

I didn't misrepresent his argument, and I understand what he said just fine. I just don't find it'd work in future update. The content still has to include weapon for those without mythic, on the other hand most ppl wouldn't be interested in the content because they have mythics. That's reason why legion was unpopular, because half of the weapons from legion was inferior to empy, and most endgame player has empy. And yet SE still has to implement weapons as reward in new content.

You can't rely on armor/accessory for future update only.

Why do you(and Mrkillface) bring up this "hard" argument in mythic over and over again. I'm not talking about difficulty, I don't care about the difficulty, I only care about longevity. If you want to talk about difficulty, killing trash mobs in Ein is as easy as killing NMs in tree, I don't think that's even relevant in this discussion.....unless you're very eager to find an excuse not to do it.

You are misrepresenting both my argument and the one above. Not sure if on purpose or accident.

I'm not sure about the above statement tbh, I have a mixed feeling toward the existence of RME, I'd like to explain why though, since I'm not sure if you're around during 75 era.

Old Relic/mythics used to take a LOT more effort to obtain than current mythic, and designed as some sort of "ultimate weapon" that takes years to obtain. When SE released empy after Abyssea expansion, those weapons were outclassed by empy, AND 10x harder to obtain. So the old relic owners Q.Q on the forum about their weapon being outclassed by an easier option. Because it wasn't fair for them to spend more time and effort and ended up with an inferior weapon. So SE buffed relic and mythic past 75.

As the time goes on, Mythic and relics became a lot easier to obtain so more ppl have them, as SE move on to ilv119, they have to adjust RME to 119 as well or else it wouldn't be fair for them as well.

If RME never exist, then it wouldn't be an issue at all. Since SE already created RME to be a time consuming long term goal so it's only logical for it to stay relevant forever. There are only 2 options for legendary weapons: 1) Don't put weapons like this in game at all 2) Keep it relevant forever. You can't leavet at 75 or 99, RME didn't get an update after SoA release is the reason why this game lost half of the sub in 2013.

IMO, having RME in FFXI is one of the more unique aspect of FFXI. Instead of spend some time to grind a weapon you'd need to toss next update, there's another type of weapon that's always the best as ilv go up, a virtual weapon with emotional attachment and personality.

I don't think I'm an expert in game design, I just play the games and analyze them based on the facts, what makes them successful and what makes them fail.

Every MMO is built upon "not everyone can have every item", fact. Raid based MMO's like that, Diablo's like that, F2P's like that.

FFXI lost sub when RME didn't get an update......fact as well.

Solution: make the weapons less relevant and easier to obtain, shift focus to other gear slots.

Afania

09-03-2014, 01:08 AM

Solution: make the weapons less relevant and easier to obtain, shift focus to other gear slots.

We have enough "irrelevant and easy to obtain" weapons in this game, we don't need more.

Demonjustin

09-03-2014, 11:26 AM

We have enough "irrelevant and easy to obtain" weapons in this game, we don't need more.Less relevant and irrelevant don't mean the same thing.

Arbalest

09-03-2014, 11:51 AM

Less relevant and irrelevant don't mean the same thing.

You'll have to yell. I don't think she can hear you.

FrankReynolds

09-08-2014, 02:00 PM

I guess I was wrong. Lots of people are doing Mythics now...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/44059-Alex-Supply-and-Salvage-Cheating-Accounts-Not-Banned

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/123482-Salvage-Bans-v-2.0

Elexia

09-09-2014, 02:23 AM

This may be a strange point of view coming from an average player, but I think the game would have been better served had Relics, Empyreans, and Mythics been made MORE difficult to the point that they truly would be a rarity. That way content would never have been developed with their existence in mind, and people wouldn't feel they absolutely had to have one just to play certain jobs. Sure there would be some linkshells and groups that still demanded them, but they'd no longer be the norm. But, like SE, I could be vastly underestimating the jerkass nature and unrealistic expectations of the community at large.

Yeah about that - 75 cap Relics were a rarity. Mythics even more rare. Empyrean weapons are like M&Ms simply because the processes has almost no gates to overcome. With Relics you still had to do certain objectives in Dynamis including some interesting NMs to fight. Mythics was basically mastering all of ToAU's content with the usual currency collection.

They eased everything because people were complaining that it was too rare and "too hard." With Mythics, that quest, yeah, THAT one needed adjustments out of all 4 of the quests. So in all reality, it changed because of people not liking that they were rare.

detlef

09-09-2014, 04:11 AM

Rubicant82

09-09-2014, 07:45 AM

very simply put, the amount of effort a whole group of people needed to put in to making one weapon for one person whom most of the time (and I swear this happened every time) would stop playing shortly after obtaining said weapon was appalling.
I am aware that we play a MMO, and it is mean to be a social game, but at no point should it take 18 people three years to make 1 weapon ... that was absolutely ridiculous. Mythics, well that is the current crux of many situations. Currently 5 assaults and ~3 good runs of Nyzul stand between me and my first mythic. I had been saving Alex for sense I can remember, squirreling it away on mules for the better part of a decade. Then the changes came, I could now do Salvage alone, other people could do it alone, I could do Dyna every day alone and get currency to sell to buy Alex! it is awesome. Now server population is in decline, and I think to myself, would I be upset if they made R/M/E even easier to obtain... and I say NO SELF! of course not! because look at all those weapons you thought you would never make you can now make! Arguing over how rare weapons should be, I have this to say. If someone is dedicated enough to the this game they should not have to rely on more than a handful of close friends to help them accomplish anything. The time of 18 man content has passed, now it is about 6 man, or even scaling content. I am all for this. I am also all for creating new versions of old weapons, and now that we have iLvL you can best imagine that you will see things outdated faster than ever. this is not longer Tanaka's sidegrade haven.

Afania

09-09-2014, 10:32 PM

Yeah about that - 75 cap Relics were a rarity. Mythics even more rare. Empyrean weapons are like M&Ms simply because the processes has almost no gates to overcome. With Relics you still had to do certain objectives in Dynamis including some interesting NMs to fight. Mythics was basically mastering all of ToAU's content with the usual currency collection.

They eased everything because people were complaining that it was too rare and "too hard." With Mythics, that quest, yeah, THAT one needed adjustments out of all 4 of the quests. So in all reality, it changed because of people not liking that they were rare.

I can never understand why wouldn't you like gears being too rare in a MMORPG. If you think it's too much grind, just don't grind them. Why do you need to dislike that fact?

Selindrile

09-10-2014, 12:57 PM

I can never understand why wouldn't you like gears being too rare in a MMORPG. If you think it's too much grind, just don't grind them. Why do you need to dislike that fact?

I can never understand why you like gears being so rare in a MMORPG. If you think it's too easy, just don't obtain them. Why do you need to like that fact?

Reversed to prove your comment carries no weight. However, logically speaking, it makes a lot more sense to be unhappy about items that exist that you won't be able to obtain, rather than being happy things exist that you cannot obtain.

Crevox

09-10-2014, 07:46 PM

Bamph

09-10-2014, 08:34 PM

Look, Grekumah is cool on the FFXIV side of things... instead of "no plans", they actually got a good response:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/70697-Some-suggestions-mostly-quality-of-life-obvious-things?p=2424372#post2424372

I'm so confused

They even forward suggestions to the dev team:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/189410-New-Emotes-we-would-like-to-see-XD?p=2410129#post2410129

So, the forum reps *need* to tell us when they forward everything to the devs (which would be a forum rep job)? By getting the "no plans" we are getting confirmation that the reps actually are in contact with the devs.

It's like walking into a eatery, ordering the food from the server and then having them bring the food out... They don't go step by step (ok, now we're telling the chef he has to make this and this and this, etc...) and will come back if there is bad news (Sorry, we're actually out of prime rib today). We trust them to do their job, just like we should trust that the forum reps are doing their jobs.

Crevox

09-10-2014, 08:37 PM

It's like walking into a eatery, ordering the food from the server and then having them bring the food out... They don't go step by step (ok, now we're telling the chef he has to make this and this and this, etc...) and will come back if there is bad news (Sorry, we're actually out of prime rib today). We trust them to do their job, just like we should trust that the forum reps are doing their jobs.

No plans means there are no plans. It doesn't say they are going to make plans, it means there aren't any, and there is no sign that they are going to ever make plans. Should we just start taking "no plans" as "it might happen?"

It's still poor communication. There's no reason they can't further convey what they did (they let the dev team know about our suggestion or something) within the post. I have to guess that the reason for their poor responses have to do with them just going to the devs about it and they're responding "nah it's not happening" without giving any other info, but shrug.

That's the thing, we just don't know.

Bamph

09-10-2014, 08:51 PM

No plans means there are no plans. It doesn't say they are going to make plans, it means there aren't any, and there is no sign that they are going to ever make plans. Should we just start taking "no plans" as "it might happen?"

It's still poor communication. There's no reason they can't further convey what they did (they let the dev team know about our suggestion or something) within the post. I have to guess that the reason for their poor responses have to do with them just going to the devs about it and they're responding "nah it's not happening" without giving any other info, but shrug.

That's the thing, we just don't know.

So when a server comes out and says "We're sorry, the kitchen is out of prime rib," do we take it as "Hey, prime rib might still happen if we complain about it," or do we go about and pick something else off the menu.

The devs saying there's no plans means just that: THERE ARE NO PLANS TO IMPLEMENT SAID FEATURE AT THIS TIME. You have that information. There will be no prime rib in this battlefield tonight. We have these other specials and menu items. Please pick from those. I know you're upset because you really wanted this item, but we do not have the resources right now.

I'm actually quite happy when we get that response (because it is a response). Not the result of the response sometimes, but with the response itself. Quick, concise, easy to understand. The only thing that would make more sense would be: There are no plans. If this changes, we'll let you know that we are working on it.

Malithar

09-10-2014, 09:00 PM

So when a server comes out and says "We're sorry, the kitchen is out of prime rib," do we take it as "Hey, prime rib might still happen if we complain about it," or do we go about and pick something else off the menu.

The devs saying there's no plans means just that: THERE ARE NO PLANS TO IMPLEMENT SAID FEATURE AT THIS TIME. You have that information. There will be no prime rib in this battlefield tonight. We have these other specials and menu items. Please pick from those. I know you're upset because you really wanted this item, but we do not have the resources right now.

I'm actually quite happy when we get that response (because it is a response). Not the result of the response sometimes, but with the response itself. Quick, concise, easy to understand. The only thing that would make more sense would be: There are no plans. If this changes, we'll let you know that we are working on it.

Pretty much agree with what you're saying, but all too often in some of these threads (Black Belt, Massacre Elegy, high tier nukes, infamous Bst pet TH, etc) we have quotes from them from months/years, sometimes as low as weeks before their "there are no plans currently" that say otherwise. That's where the real disconnect, for me at least, is. To say "we're looking at making tier V Elemental Magic more useful in battle strategies" then literally 1.5-2 months later say "there are no plans to change high tier Elemental Magic" is a bit of a conundrum. What are we to believe if anything from dev posts at that point?

Crevox

09-10-2014, 09:02 PM

Pretty much agree with what you're saying, but all too often in some of these threads (Black Belt, Massacre Elegy, high tier nukes, infamous Bst pet TH, etc) we have quotes from them from months/years, sometimes as low as weeks before their "there are no plans currently" that say otherwise. That's where the real disconnect, for me at least, is. To say "we're looking at making tier V Elemental Magic more useful in battle strategies" then literally 1.5-2 months later say "there are no plans to change high tier Elemental Magic" is a bit of a conundrum. What are we to believe if anything from dev posts at that point?

Not only that, but saying you can cast protect and shell on puppets.

There are no plans. If this changes, we'll let you know that we are working on it.

This still doesn't convey that our feedback was heard by the dev team. They could be going to the dev team and just saying "hey are you guys doing *this*?" and they just respond "no plans" and move on. Instead, they could be saying "hey there's a huge thread on the community forums about the possibility of this being changed, a lot of people think this should happen" and while we might still get "no plans", at least our feedback is being heard, and they can convey in their post that our feedback was heard as well (you know, the things that happened in the links I gave you).

Balloon

09-10-2014, 09:04 PM

Yeah, it really more of a case of them taking the order for the rib, sending out your appetizers, waiting 3-4 months and then telling you there's no plans currently to cook your Prime Rib.

And these forums are for feedback, if people want to come out and say they're annoyed about something, or to push for something they should be able to. Complaining about this stuff, unfortunately, is one of the few ways they do listen.

Crevox

09-10-2014, 09:07 PM

Afania

09-10-2014, 09:09 PM

I can never understand why you like gears being so rare in a MMORPG. If you think it's too easy, just don't obtain them. Why do you need to like that fact?

Reversed to prove your comment carries no weight. However, logically speaking, it makes a lot more sense to be unhappy about items that exist that you won't be able to obtain, rather than being happy things exist that you cannot obtain.

It makes a lot more sense to give more reward for ppl that spend more time/effort, in game or irl. It also makes a lot more sense not to be unhappy if someone spent more time/effort got more reward*.....fixed for you. IMO it wouldn't make any sense if someone work 5hr a week being unhappy about his income lower than another individual work 40hr a week.

So if someone can't afford a Ferrari or something expensive irl, they'd feel unhappy too? By your logic 99% of the population on earth would be unhappy because they can't afford a Ferrari. But that's not true at all, most ppl aren't unhappy with their life without owning a Ferrari......because they knew they probably don't deserve one.

I think rare gear/Ferrari should exist, because I think ppl who put their effort into making money irl or playing the game should be rewarded with their accomplishment. If every casual can own a rare gear in MMO, or every lazy individual can own a Ferrari irl, there won't be any incentive to move forward and work hard, thus taking most of the excitement in life/game away.

Ppl who played a video game hard should be rewarded with a rare gear different from everyone else, ppl who worked hard in real life should be rewarded with a rare show off item like Ferrari. Nothing wrong with that. If you feel unhappy that someone else gets better stuff, maybe you need to adjust your POV about life lol.....there are always someone that gets better stuff cuz they worked harder/luckier, irl or in game.

Lithera

09-10-2014, 11:01 PM

What about people who have a job that doesn't allow them to own a Ferrari, but they won enough money from like a game show or actually won the lotto. They go out and buy one just because they can now because of their winnings. It still doesn't mean that they can afford to own one once that money they won goes away. Because let's face it most people who win a huge amount of money don't go and do smart things with said money so that it will last longer at a minimum or actually make them more so that they can actually still afford to have that Ferrari.

Back to the actual thread. Even though the we have no plans and wishy-washy bs they sometimes give us gets people's knickers in a twist; it at least is a response. I'm sure we all can easily find threads multi paged or not that haven't gotten any response even with various people asking for one. The no responses at times like we're just talking to a wall or the many voices in our head. Or maybe to a cat.

Xerius

09-10-2014, 11:37 PM

One major issue as of late is when the development team HAD plans and then dropped them and decided to not tell anyone. Just take a look at Cait Sith and Atomos. Sure, Cait Sith is in the game now and Atomos is on the way but we've been waiting for them for almost 4 years now. That's absolutely ridiculous especially when BST is getting 6 new pets added on a whim. I know BRD has similar issues with Massacre Elegy. I liked the old yearly road maps better than the new system of telling us what's going to happen 2 weeks before the update. At least then I knew what to expect throughout the year and what, almost certainly, wasn't going to happen.

Lithera

09-11-2014, 03:16 AM

Yet the problem with the road maps was oh hey look at this stuff we're saying we are working on and are going to give you at this date ect. When at least half of the stuff on those road maps have yet to be put in game or they have chosen to now not put them in. At least now every month they give us what to look for next month and put *'s on things that might not finish the last batch of quality control checks for that update and will let us know that at best we'll see it next month.

I just wish they would announce the freshly picked in advance since they tend to show off and sometimes talk about things that are going to be in the update after the one we're on like they tend to do with the trusts. Instead us NA/EU get to be told about it after the patch has already arrived.

FrankReynolds

09-11-2014, 03:25 AM

It makes a lot more sense to give more reward for ppl that spend more time/effort, in game or irl. It also makes a lot more sense not to be unhappy if someone spent more time/effort got more reward*.....fixed for you. IMO it wouldn't make any sense if someone work 5hr a week being unhappy about his income lower than another individual work 40hr a week.

So if someone can't afford a Ferrari or something expensive irl, they'd feel unhappy too? By your logic 99% of the population on earth would be unhappy because they can't afford a Ferrari. But that's not true at all, most ppl aren't unhappy with their life without owning a Ferrari......because they knew they probably don't deserve one.

I think rare gear/Ferrari should exist, because I think ppl who put their effort into making money irl or playing the game should be rewarded with their accomplishment. If every casual can own a rare gear in MMO, or every lazy individual can own a Ferrari irl, there won't be any incentive to move forward and work hard, thus taking most of the excitement in life/game away.

Ppl who played a video game hard should be rewarded with a rare gear different from everyone else, ppl who worked hard in real life should be rewarded with a rare show off item like Ferrari. Nothing wrong with that. If you feel unhappy that someone else gets better stuff, maybe you need to adjust your POV about life lol.....there are always someone that gets better stuff cuz they worked harder/luckier, irl or in game.

I have better skills than you. I do make as much in 5 hours a week as you make in 40. Your analogy is terrible.

This grind pays strictly based on attendance. Not how hard you work or how good you are. If you want to be rewarded for effort, make an effort to play better. Not an effort to just show up more.

Malithar

09-11-2014, 04:55 AM

What about people who have a job that doesn't allow them to own a Ferrari, but they won enough money from like a game show or actually won the lotto. They go out and buy one just because they can now because of their winnings. It still doesn't mean that they can afford to own one once that money they won goes away. Because let's face it most people who win a huge amount of money don't go and do smart things with said money so that it will last longer at a minimum or actually make them more so that they can actually still afford to have that Ferrari.

You mean like someone that wins the Bonanza and complains that they can't afford the Scoria? I don't really see your point. There's things for people to spend a lot of time/money on to get a bit better of an item, and there's quick easy to get items that aren't much worse than those long term goal items. What's the issue, that not everyone has the patience for them?

Mefuki

09-11-2014, 06:35 AM

There's things for people to spend a lot of time/money on to get a bit better of an item, and there's quick easy to get items that aren't much worse than those long term goal items.

That's the part I'm not getting about arguing for easing mythic obtainment. People were justified in complaining when the REM fiasco happened. SE gave everyone extremely easy access to weapons that were 40% or more better then even Mythics. Now? Mythics are still the best in most cases but the gap is MUCH smaller then 40%. Why not have a piece of gear that shows your dedication for the job? Are (most) Mythics still good? Yes. But are they so good that you need them to perform or be allowed in events? No. They're desirable but not necessary.

I think that's a pretty good balance to strike.

Lithera

09-11-2014, 07:17 AM

You mean like someone that wins the Bonanza and complains that they can't afford the Scoria? I don't really see your point. There's things for people to spend a lot of time/money on to get a bit better of an item, and there's quick easy to get items that aren't much worse than those long term goal items. What's the issue, that not everyone has the patience for them?
My point is according to Afania if in RL you have a job that allows you to afford a Ferrari it equates to working harder than someone who's job doesn't allow them to afford one equates to them not working hard enough. So I brought up people who in RL who's normal job wouldn't allow them them to afford one, but win the lotto or like one past Jeopardy champion won like 3mil and he went and bought a Porsche. Because you know he could do that. Again most people don't normally do smart things with their winnings so that they run out of the money they won. So if they quit their job or didn't get a better paying job they won't be able to afford said car later on. Thus their car example is somewhat flawed.

Afania

09-11-2014, 09:49 AM

I have better skills than you. I do make as much in 5 hours a week as you make in 40. Your analogy is terrible.

This grind pays strictly based on attendance. Not how hard you work or how good you are. If you want to be rewarded for effort, make an effort to play better. Not an effort to just show up more.

Not sure what's so terrible about this example, better skill to make more money is equal to more effort and it should be rewarded. Effort isn't necessary the amount of time you spend, but also how smart/talented you are, how hard you work, and how lucky you are.

I also have to point out ppl with better skill/play smarter in FFXI do make gil a lot faster. For example, selling delve2 win when it was hard and worth 15M~20M each clear, or sell legion drop when it was just out when only a few LS can beat it.

What about people who have a job that doesn't allow them to own a Ferrari, but they won enough money from like a game show or actually won the lotto.

Luck is part of a skill, we all know that.

FrankReynolds

09-11-2014, 04:33 PM

Not sure what's so terrible about this example, better skill to make more money is equal to more effort and it should be rewarded. Effort isn't necessary the amount of time you spend, but also how smart/talented you are, how hard you work, and how lucky you are.

Show me how smart and skilled you are. Go do einherjar 5 times a day. You can't. Clear it faster than me because you're better. Still gotta wait til the next day. Try harder. Put in more effort..... Still gotta wait till the next day. Show your talent. click the gate a thousand times. Still gotta wait till the next day. Think you're lucky? Click the gate some more.... still gotta wait till the next day.

I also have to point out ppl with better skill/play smarter in FFXI do make gil a lot faster. For example, selling delve2 win when it was hard and worth 15M~20M each clear, or sell legion drop when it was just out when only a few LS can beat it.

That's nothing. I sold a blau dolch for 500 mil one time. I'm the smartest hardest working guy of all time.

Seriously? That's your definition of smart? Splitting 15-20 mil between 15-17 people? You could make more solo.

Malithar

09-11-2014, 06:58 PM

Seriously? That's your definition of smart? Splitting 15-20 mil between 15-17 people? You could make more solo.

Pretty smart doing those Delve 2s with a full ally.

Karbuncle

09-11-2014, 11:24 PM

Yah, Can clear more Delve II with like, 5-6 people lol x.x;

So its 20mil between 5-6, which is actually a decent penny.

FrankReynolds

09-12-2014, 12:02 AM

Yah, Can clear more Delve II with like, 5-6 people lol x.x;

So its 20mil between 5-6, which is actually a decent penny.

People were doing it with 5-6 people before the nerf (Disclaimer: wasn't playing when delve 2 came out)? From what I understood, that wasn't until they nerfed the HP of the mobs.

Afania

09-12-2014, 12:29 AM

People were doing it with 5-6 people before the nerf (Disclaimer: wasn't playing when delve 2 came out)? From what I understood, that wasn't until they nerfed the HP of the mobs.

Delve2 was done with 6 man pt.......

Also if you 3 box 3 characters you only split 15M~20M with 2 ppl, that's like 10M+ in 30 min of work. Or play more than 3 char and get gil all by yourself. Before you make an effort to emphasis how smart you are, maybe do a little research when you want to counter other's argument.

Mythic also isn't ein/assault only, there's gil grind as well.

FrankReynolds

09-12-2014, 02:07 AM

Delve2 was done with 6 man pt.......

Also if you 3 box 3 characters you only split 15M~20M with 2 ppl, that's like 10M+ in 30 min of work. Or play more than 3 char and get gil all by yourself. Before you make an effort to emphasis how smart you are, maybe do a little research when you want to counter other's argument.

Mythic also isn't ein/assault only, there's gil grind as well.

Yeah, I'm sure that shouting in town for buyers and leveling / gearing the other 2 characters takes no time at all. Even with 6 people it's not as great as you make it out to be and it definitely doesn't sound fun. I'm sure everything in the game would be easy if we just 18 boxed it all.

Still can't accelerate the einherjar / assault stages though and that was the topic of discussion. Not how to make gil. If it were just a matter of buying alex, we wouldn't even be talking about this would we?

Afania

09-12-2014, 02:59 AM

Yeah, I'm sure that shouting in town for buyers and leveling / gearing the other 2 characters takes no time at all. Even with 6 people it's not as great as you make it out to be and it definitely doesn't sound fun. I'm sure everything in the game would be easy if we just 18 boxed it all.

Still can't accelerate the einherjar / assault stages though and that was the topic of discussion. Not how to make gil. If it were just a matter of buying alex, we wouldn't even be talking about this would we?

Some ppl have multiple char before delve exist already.

Also not sure why'd you bring "This isn't fun, that isn't fun" in mythic discussion over and over again. Fun is subjective, therefore it's not relevant in a discussion like this.

Or else I can just go "Delve isn't fun, let's get rid of delve", "job change isn't fun, let's get rid of job change system", or "playing 1 character isn't fun because it's more fun to play 3 char at once".....if we want to use subjective POV like "fun" as an argument, then argument won't go anywhere.

I think building a mythic is fun, if you change the requirement it won't be fun anymore, duh.

FrankReynolds

09-12-2014, 03:33 AM

Some ppl have multiple char before delve exist already.

Also not sure why'd you bring "This isn't fun, that isn't fun" in mythic discussion over and over again. Fun is subjective, therefore it's not relevant in a discussion like this.

Or else I can just go "Delve isn't fun, let's get rid of delve", "job change isn't fun, let's get rid of job change system", or "playing 1 character isn't fun because it's more fun to play 3 char at once".....if we want to use subjective POV like "fun" as an argument, then argument won't go anywhere.

I think building a mythic is fun, if you change the requirement it won't be fun anymore, duh.

Except that I'm talking about changing the requirements, not the content. The content would be just as "Fun" as it was before the change.

Jake

09-12-2014, 05:00 AM

Clearly "The development team has no plans to..." do anything about the rampant cheating ruining this game.

detlef

09-12-2014, 05:06 AM

Except that I'm talking about changing the requirements, not the content. The content would be just as "Fun" as it was before the change.So are you talking about changing the requirements or are you about QoL improvements?

That's what I mean. I'm not saying they should cut it to 1,000 alex and a win each in nyzul/einherjar. I'm just saying that the event needs QoL changes. Double Ichor days would be nice. They wouldn't suddenly make building a mythic into a one day affair. But they're nice for the guy who is already doing it. Allowing people to solo Nyzul / einherjar isn't going to allow a guy to build his weapon twice as fast. It just cuts down the chatlog spam and wasted time. The guy is still going once per day. But now, he's not bugging everyone about it. Those sort of things don't make the quest so easy that everyone will do it, they just make is less horrible so that a few more people will do it. Small changes make a world of difference.

And while were on the subject of QOL, isn't it high time that they did away with the inventory clogging and just made zeni accumulate every time you took a picture like cruor/plasm/exp does when you kill a mob? Do we really need the inventory clogging convoluted system of trading in actual items for points? Even with all these new bags, holding all that stuff is annoying and unnecessary. The item pics used for pankration should be a separate device / system entirely.I agree that they can adjust a few things to make the process a little less grindy but the requirements are fine as they are, notwithstanding the Alexandrite supply drying up quite a bit. That market will stabilize as more people start farming Salvage for gil again.

FrankReynolds

09-12-2014, 07:41 AM

So are you talking about changing the requirements or are you about QoL improvements?

It's kind of six of one, half dozen of the other. It doesn't really matter if they lower the amount of tokens / ichor etc. required, or they just make them easier to farm by removing the one tag a day, three person requirements or increasing the drop rate. It's all the same outcome.

I agree that they can adjust a few things to make the process a little less grindy but the requirements are fine as they are, notwithstanding the Alexandrite supply drying up quite a bit. That market will stabilize as more people start farming Salvage for gil again.

I'm curious as to how that will pan out too. Prices already seem to be starting to climb some. I don't honestly expect a lot more people to start farming salvage now though. I expect that the bulk of the people farming it will continue to be people who plan on keeping the alex. Prices will probably get pretty high unless some new cheat is found.

detlef

09-12-2014, 08:10 AM

I think a lot of people who might have been discouraged from farming Salvage will do so now if the prices start approaching 10k again. But WoE is hot right now too so maybe it'll be awhile.

Afania

09-13-2014, 02:56 AM

Except that I'm talking about changing the requirements, not the content. The content would be just as "Fun" as it was before the change.

Except fun is subjective, so your argument is invalid cuz it's your opinion about what's fun for you.

So yes, change the requirement isn't fun for me, nor anyone not having the same POV as you.

Personally, I don't find "doing the content" in FFXI fun at all. No matter what you do, delve2, einherjar, higher lv BC, all you ever do is engage TP WS repeat. There aren't much variation toward how you control your character.

Further more, there are no real difficulty exist in this game.....I don't have an issue playing my character and let it function properly, but whether you can clear the content or not completely depend on who you play with.......so far I've yet to experience any SoA content that's very, very hard with right pt setup/ppl.

IMO, fun in FFXI came from spending a long time work toward a goal and finally finish the goal. I don't have fun doing easy content for 3hr, spam TP and WS repeatly for so-so reward. I have more fun doing easy content for months and years, spam TP and WS repeatly for the best weapon in this game. It doesn't matter if I'm fighting Ein mobs or Yorcia NM, all I ever do is engage click TP macro click WS macro, I see no difference in them.

IMO fun doesn't just came from the reward, but also the time and effort you've spent on that reward, they came together. If SE deliver 20 mythics and 2 ergon to my inbox, I sure wouldn't feel as happy as building one myself.

I have fun spending months and years toward a goal and get them, and I believe it's human nature to feel that way in game or irl.

If your opinion toward fun is "gimme stuff and that's fun" then I have nothing to say, it's your opinion toward fun but not mine, and I wouldn't change my opinion toward fun as well.

That being said, at least I've respected your definition of fun. It seems that all you ever do in this forum is downplay anyone's opinion that's different from yours by labeling them into something else and make your subjective opinion legit, in reality it's not.

FrankReynolds

09-13-2014, 10:29 AM

Except fun is subjective, so your argument is invalid cuz it's your opinion about what's fun for you.

So yes, change the requirement isn't fun for me, nor anyone not having the same POV as you.

Personally, I don't find "doing the content" in FFXI fun at all. No matter what you do, delve2, einherjar, higher lv BC, all you ever do is engage TP WS repeat. There aren't much variation toward how you control your character.

Further more, there are no real difficulty exist in this game.....I don't have an issue playing my character and let it function properly, but whether you can clear the content or not completely depend on who you play with.......so far I've yet to experience any SoA content that's very, very hard with right pt setup/ppl.

IMO, fun in FFXI came from spending a long time work toward a goal and finally finish the goal. I don't have fun doing easy content for 3hr, spam TP and WS repeatly for so-so reward. I have more fun doing easy content for months and years, spam TP and WS repeatly for the best weapon in this game. It doesn't matter if I'm fighting Ein mobs or Yorcia NM, all I ever do is engage click TP macro click WS macro, I see no difference in them.

IMO fun doesn't just came from the reward, but also the time and effort you've spent on that reward, they came together. If SE deliver 20 mythics and 2 ergon to my inbox, I sure wouldn't feel as happy as building one myself.

I have fun spending months and years toward a goal and get them, and I believe it's human nature to feel that way in game or irl.

If your opinion toward fun is "gimme stuff and that's fun" then I have nothing to say, it's your opinion toward fun but not mine, and I wouldn't change my opinion toward fun as well.

That being said, at least I've respected your definition of fun. It seems that all you ever do in this forum is downplay anyone's opinion that's different from yours by labeling them into something else and make your subjective opinion legit, in reality it's not.

I'm sure that you realize by now that I am in no way asking for SE to just give me stuff. The fact that you keep bringing up that argument is getting a little old. As for me thinking that my opinion is better than yours, well.. That's like just your opinion man...

You basically just broke the whole game down into complete meaninglessness as far as actually playing goes. If the only form of fun or achievement that you can conceive of is waiting in line for a really long time to obtain an item, I might suggest the DMV as an endless source of enjoyment for you.

Afania

09-13-2014, 02:10 PM

You basically just broke the whole game down into complete meaninglessness as far as actually playing goes.

Not really, the whole point of MMO is to create a virtual world, and most ppl tend to seek accomplishment in a world, fact.

The only accomplishment you can have in this virtual world is getting items and parse higher....what other accomplishment you can have in FFXI? Nothing.

Thus it's only logical to have fun via getting accomplishment in FFXI. Technically, I find trying different pt setup and strategy to beat a content is fun as well, but with all that cookie cutter setup and strategy being used everywhere(and if you don't use cookie cutter setup the entire server would /blist you), it's hard to have fun from that aspect.

FrankReynolds

09-13-2014, 05:01 PM

Not really, the whole point of MMO is to create a virtual world, and most ppl tend to seek accomplishment in a world, fact.

Accomplishment doesn't necessarily mean gear. Go to youtube and see literally thousands of videos of people soloing monsters that they don't need drops from, just to see if they can pull it off. A lot of times the gear is a means to an end, not the goal.

In your case the goal seems to be being the cool kid with the mythic, so it would hurt your feelings if all the other kids had one.

For me the goal is to do better at everything I do. I don't really care if everyone has one as long as I can perform better at my job.

The only accomplishment you can have in this virtual world is getting items and parse higher....what other accomplishment you can have in FFXI? Nothing.

I soloed some AAs. I felt pretty accomplished. I mean I don't have a special item to prove it to everyone who checks me in Port Jeuno, but then I don't really feel like I need plaque that says "Winner" to prove I'm good. It was a waste of merit points in respect to material rewards. I could have gotten far more items by just going with a group. But, Just winning is all the achievement I needed. They didn't need to give me an exclusive item that no one else could have to convince me to do it. I did it because it was fun and challenging. Go take a poke around youtube. A lot of people do that sort of thing for fun. You should try garnering some recognition through clever game play instead of trophies. It feels a lot better to be recognized for how you play than to be recognized for how much exclusive crap you hoard.

Afania

09-13-2014, 07:00 PM

Accomplishment doesn't necessarily mean gear. Go to youtube and see literally thousands of videos of people soloing monsters that they don't need drops from, just to see if they can pull it off. A lot of times the gear is a means to an end, not the goal.

In your case the goal seems to be being the cool kid with the mythic, so it would hurt your feelings if all the other kids had one.

For me the goal is to do better at everything I do. I don't really care if everyone has one as long as I can perform better at my job.

Again you're twisting my motivation and play the "you just wanna be special" card again, and put your irrelevant subjective POV toward me in an argument. I guess that's the only skill you're better at AFAIK, if that is even a skill lol.

Also your logic is contradicting yourself.

In FFXI you can't "do better at something" than others because battle system is so simplistic, most of your performance are completely based on gear sets, macro/tools and luck. If A SAM uses same gear set as B SAM, and same tools or both use default macro, the gap between their output is usually less than 3%~5%. Your performance is limited by in game mechanics and values on gears mostly.

This is a MMORPG without action element, this isn't a skill based game. Idk how you can "perform better than everyone else" if you're wearing the same gear as them, unless you can hack into the game system and change your character stat, lol.

As far as the definition of gear goes, IMO it's the reward of your goal. Of course you're free to set a goal like soloing the monster, but that doesn't change my POV about fun/accomplishment and such. It only shows that you're trying to apply your subjective opinion on everyone else and downplay other's opinion if they're different.

I soloed some AAs. I felt pretty accomplished. I mean I don't have a special item to prove it to everyone who checks me in Port Jeuno, but then I don't really feel like I need plaque that says "Winner" to prove I'm good.

I'm gonna play the "you just wanna be special" card like you as well :)

You feel accomplished because majority of the player doesn't/can't do it, that's why you feel accomplished.

If a MNK can solo AA wearing lv 60 gears by ONLY engage TP WS, you probably won't feel as accomplished anymore :)

And what makes your char different from his? Gears.....and maybe the job you choose.

So your sense of "accomplishment" is completely based on.......gears, and being the cool kid in town :)

No matter how I see it, I don't see how your POV of fun is better than mine, it's fundamentally the same thing.

FrankReynolds

09-14-2014, 01:50 PM

Again you're twisting my motivation and play the "you just wanna be special" card again, and put your irrelevant subjective POV toward me in an argument. I guess that's the only skill you're better at AFAIK, if that is even a skill lol.

Also your logic is contradicting yourself.

In FFXI you can't "do better at something" than others because battle system is so simplistic, most of your performance are completely based on gear sets, macro/tools and luck. If A SAM uses same gear set as B SAM, and same tools or both use default macro, the gap between their output is usually less than 3%~5%. Your performance is limited by in game mechanics and values on gears mostly.

This is a MMORPG without action element, this isn't a skill based game. Idk how you can "perform better than everyone else" if you're wearing the same gear as them, unless you can hack into the game system and change your character stat, lol.

As far as the definition of gear goes, IMO it's the reward of your goal. Of course you're free to set a goal like soloing the monster, but that doesn't change my POV about fun/accomplishment and such. It only shows that you're trying to apply your subjective opinion on everyone else and downplay other's opinion if they're different.

And yet, I'll bet if someone said that you were only good because of your mythic, you would be happy to tell them that it's actually all skill and how great you were even before you had a mythic.

I'm gonna play the "you just wanna be special" card like you as well :)

You feel accomplished because majority of the player doesn't/can't do it, that's why you feel accomplished.

If a MNK can solo AA wearing lv 60 gears by ONLY engage TP WS, you probably won't feel as accomplished anymore :)

Of course not. Then it wouldn't be difficult. You re confusing difficult with something that just takes a long time. There is a difference. Learn it.

TBH it didn't really occur to me that other people may or may not be able to do it. If I actually cared about that aspect, I'd be demanding that they add special items for people who solo it.

And what makes your char different from his? Gears.....and maybe the job you choose.

So your sense of "accomplishment" is completely based on.......gears, and being the cool kid in town :)

My character is different because I play it. People play differently and with varying degrees of skill. I know you want to pretend that the game is just so easy and everyone is equally skilled, but the internet is littered with stories of RME players being out parsed, out cured, out enfeebled etc. by players with NQ gear. You are just plain wrong. There are thousands of people out there who don't know nearly as much as you or I about how to play the game. I have beaten stuff with two song bards and thieves and then lost to the same content with 4 song bards and samurais.

I'm willing to bet that there are things that even you don't know about how the game works and I'm also willing to bet that you have screwed up and used the wrong WS, Spell or ability from time to time.

You are not perfect and neither am I or anyone else. Having gear does not mean you have beat the game. Stop pretending that gear is the only determining factor in win or lose. Gear makes things easier if you know how to use it. It doesn't automatically make you good.

No matter how I see it, I don't see how your POV of fun is better than mine, it's fundamentally the same thing.

My point of view benefits a larger number of people.

Afania

09-14-2014, 08:20 PM

And yet, I'll bet if someone said that you were only good because of your mythic, you would be happy to tell them that it's actually all skill and how great you were even before you had a mythic.

No cuz I know it isn't real "skill" that make me good at a job, but the gear....not just mythic(it's only one gear out of many), but mostly because the quality and amount of gears I have.

Of course not. Then it wouldn't be difficult. You re confusing difficult with something that just takes a long time. There is a difference. Learn it.

TBH it didn't really occur to me that other people may or may not be able to do it. If I actually cared about that aspect, I'd be demanding that they add special items for people who solo it.

Your definition of difficulty doesn't matter in this argument.

I can say "TBH it didn't really occur to me that other ppl may or may not have mythic, I just want finish a long term goal" when you twist my motivation into something else as well.

It doesn't matter how you really think, the point is that you did something not everyone can/would, and you feel accomplished. I made a decision to grind something not everyone would choose to do, and I feel accomplished as well.

This is fundamentally the same thing, if you can twist my motivation into "wanna be a cool kid in town", so I can do that too.

My character is different because I play it. People play differently and with varying degrees of skill. I know you want to pretend that the game is just so easy and everyone is equally skilled, but the internet is littered with stories of RME players being out parsed, out cured, out enfeebled etc. by players with NQ gear. You are just plain wrong. There are thousands of people out there who don't know nearly as much as you or I about how to play the game. I have beaten stuff with two song bards and thieves and then lost to the same content with 4 song bards and samurais.

I'm willing to bet that there are things that even you don't know about how the game works and I'm also willing to bet that you have screwed up and used the wrong WS, Spell or ability from time to time.

You are not perfect and neither am I or anyone else. Having gear does not mean you have beat the game. Stop pretending that gear is the only determining factor in win or lose. Gear makes things easier if you know how to use it. It doesn't automatically make you good.

What you're saying isn't "skill", what you're saying is experience and pt organization. Experience helps makes better decision but it's not equal to skill, pt organization helps bringing the team together If I give my character to someone else and tell them which button to click in X situation, they can perform nearly the same. FFXI simply doesn't require skill, at least not as much as games like SF4.

A lot of relic owners parse lower than others mostly* because of wrong gear sets in wrong situation, which is still about gears. A lot of NQ players claiming "I parse higher than RME owners" either running in very good gear sets in other slot or use tools for faster macro speed. You can try to outparse a ilv119 RME owner using proper gear sets in lv 75 gear, it's gonna be very hard unless that RME owner is downright terrible at clicking WS macro.

I also have to point out, many players sometimes outparse RME owners due to luck or having more experience in said content(so they know how to build better gear sets for that specific content), then they act as if they just play that much better than another RME owner after winning parse one or two times, then they brag on the internet over and over about that. That doesn't necessary make skill a bigger factor affecting the performance in this game.

Gear sets, macro click speed/tools, experience and luck is the only factor affecting your performance in this game, there's a limit on how much you can improve.

Elexia

09-14-2014, 10:24 PM

Clearly "The development team has no plans to..." do anything about the rampant cheating ruining this game.

I always found it ironic because people used to always say:

"Waaaaah JP have advantage over us!"
"Waaah RMT is ruining the game"

Now it seems just a quick trip to BG forums you'll see that most cheating is and always have been from ...let's just say "the community." So sadly, they can't without banning quite a lot of their NA players. I mean salvage bans shows they'll ban if they have to, but with how open people are about cheating, it won't end well.

As for the rarity argument:

Rarity keeps people playing - handing out everything and making everything beyond easy drives people way a lot quicker because it's like getting a job starting as a janitor then becoming the CEO in 2 hours and then being fired an hour later only for the process to cycle with the next janitor that joins the company.

There's nothing..to truly work for when you're handed it. This is why Yoshida over on the XIV side admitted to designing that game with the knowledge of people will quit for up to 2 months after wearing out the content in a new patch because of how accessible it is and how easy it is to gear out with no rare items to obtain. You want some items to be rare in an MMO, it's not your single player game where rare items make no sense other than a forced grind.

FrankReynolds

09-14-2014, 11:45 PM

As for the rarity argument:

Rarity keeps people playing - handing out everything and making everything beyond easy drives people way a lot quicker because it's like getting a job starting as a janitor then becoming the CEO in 2 hours and then being fired an hour later only for the process to cycle with the next janitor that joins the company.

There's nothing..to truly work for when you're handed it. This is why Yoshida over on the XIV side admitted to designing that game with the knowledge of people will quit for up to 2 months after wearing out the content in a new patch because of how accessible it is and how easy it is to gear out with no rare items to obtain. You want some items to be rare in an MMO, it's not your single player game where rare items make no sense other than a forced grind.

I'm sure that nobody wants to read this entire thread at this point so I'll fill you in. No one asked for mythics to be handed out. We were talking about things like double ichor campaign days or removing the three person requirement from einherjar.

For some reason this afania person is okay with people spamming the events on multiple mules, but thinks the game would somehow be ruined if you could get the weapons even one day faster through double ichor campaigns and the like. I've been having some fun with it.

No cuz I know it isn't real "skill" that make me good at a job, but the gear....not just mythic(it's only one gear out of many), but mostly because the quality and amount of gears I have.

Look, I'm sure you aren't a bad player. In fact, I'm sure that you are quite good. But what you just said... I just...

Your definition of difficulty doesn't matter in this argument.

Okay... so is now the time when we just start posting gifs?

I can say "TBH it didn't really occur to me that other ppl may or may not have mythic, I just want finish a long term goal" when you twist my motivation into something else as well.

You could say that. You could say a lot of things that just plain aren't true. But you've already claimed to know how many people are making / own mythics and explained your motivation for making one in this thread so we would all know you were lying. You might as well say you ride a unicorn to your construction job on mars every day.

It doesn't matter how you really think, the point is that you did something not everyone can/would, and you feel accomplished. I made a decision to grind something not everyone would choose to do, and I feel accomplished as well.

This is fundamentally the same thing, if you can twist my motivation into "wanna be a cool kid in town", so I can do that too.

Mine took 30 minutes and I didn't get a mythic for it, but yeah. Basically the exact same thing.

So they should make mythics drop in AA fights? Is that what you're saying? /s

What you're saying isn't "skill", what you're saying is experience and pt organization. Experience helps makes better decision but it's not equal to skill, pt organization helps bringing the team together If I give my character to someone else and tell them which button to click in X situation, they can perform nearly the same. FFXI simply doesn't require skill, at least not as much as games like SF4.

skill noun
: the ability to do something that comes from training, experience, or practice

A lot of relic owners parse lower than others mostly* because of wrong gear sets in wrong situation, which is still about gears. A lot of NQ players claiming "I parse higher than RME owners" either running in very good gear sets in other slot or use tools for faster macro speed. You can try to outparse a ilv119 RME owner using proper gear sets in lv 75 gear, it's gonna be very hard unless that RME owner is downright terrible at clicking WS macro.

One might say that you need..... wait for it...... skill?

I also have to point out, many players sometimes outparse RME owners due to luck or having more experience in said content(so they know how to build better gear sets for that specific content), then they act as if they just play that much better than another RME owner after winning parse one or two times, then they brag on the internet over and over about that. That doesn't necessary make skill a bigger factor affecting the performance in this game.

See the above definition of skill.

Gear sets, macro click speed/tools, experience and luck is the only factor affecting your performance in this game, there's a limit on how much you can improve.

See the above definition of skill.

Lithera

09-14-2014, 11:48 PM

Yet there are people who only have one set for their job and do better time after time vs a person with the best gear and multiple sets. Gear=skill has never been 100% true. Better gear just means you should be able to survive longer.

Afania

09-15-2014, 01:37 AM

Look, I'm sure you aren't a bad player. In fact, I'm sure that you are quite good. But what you just said... I just...

Well.....being good or bad at a job is subjective, so I don't actually give opinion about whether I'm good or bad at my job.

It is fact that there are many ppl told me "You're good at X job" (and vice versa......sometimes!) in my life. However, most of the time gear is the deciding factor, that's what I was saying. If I fail at doing something, it's mostly because I lack appropriate gear sets, if I parse high in an event, it's also mostly because of the gears.

I mean, there's a limit of how much dmg you can do with bad gear....and there's just nothing you can do about it. So how can gears not be the major factor affecting your performance?

Mine took 30 minutes and I didn't get a mythic for it, but yeah. Basically the exact same thing.

So they should make mythics drop in AA fights? Is that what you're saying? /s

That's not what I was saying at all.....

skill noun
: the ability to do something that comes from training, experience, or practice

One might say that you need..... wait for it...... skill?

See the above definition of skill.

See the above definition of skill.

So by your logic, I can go read a forum, ask how to gear X job, and perform properly based on other ppl's experience and tell you "I'm a skilled player!"? Not convinced.

In FFXI you can basically just copy and paste gear sets from other ppl and do exactly the same thing.

Yet there are people who only have one set for their job and do better time after time vs a person with the best gear and multiple sets. Gear=skill has never been 100% true. Better gear just means you should be able to survive longer.

After many years playing FFXI, I have encountered many NQ player outparse RME owners, but I've never encounter "1 gear set" player play better than someone with multiple sets, unless they get lucky or something.

Personally, I'm not sure how can that even happen unless the "best gear and multiple sets" player can't even click macro properly....but seriously? - -

Lithera

09-15-2014, 07:38 AM

You would be surprised at how many "geared" players I have seen or heard of during the many years of playing that is so full of stupid that you would swear the only way they got those gears is because they were sleeping with their LS leader. Though honestly that happened more than once in some LSes.

Also I run around in one set most of the time on my whm only thing I have a gear swap for is casting regens. Of course you are not talking about healing so that doesn't count. Yet I still get praised by almost anyone who I've healed for who have had better geared whms than me. I know mind blowing, and still not about dpsing better than someone else.

I also tend to run around in just one set for my other jobs, but then for those I know I'm not the best. It's not because I don't care about them it's because one the RNG gods seriously loathe me most of the time and two I am almost clueless when it comes to sets for things. Also I haven't been on almost any other job but whm since it reached 70. That was back when sky was still a thing.

FrankReynolds

09-15-2014, 01:04 PM

Well.....being good or bad at a job is subjective, so I don't actually give opinion about whether I'm good or bad at my job.

It is fact that there are many ppl told me "You're good at X job" (and vice versa......sometimes!) in my life. However, most of the time gear is the deciding factor, that's what I was saying. If I fail at doing something, it's mostly because I lack appropriate gear sets, if I parse high in an event, it's also mostly because of the gears.

I mean, there's a limit of how much dmg you can do with bad gear....and there's just nothing you can do about it. So how can gears not be the major factor affecting your performance?

An easy example is bard. People constantly complain both in game an on this forum about people singing everything with terpander and empyrian gear. That's an obvious bad move, because you can easily see the harp and gear while they are singing, but the same thing happens a million times every day on every job. There's that monk who doesn't swap to empy body for weapon skills when impetus is up. theres that one that does swap to it even if he just missed the last hit. there's a million shades of grey.

You can call it stupid or experience or macros or scripts or whatever you want, but it's all skill in one form or another and it varies from player to player. As good as my gear and your gear makes us, I guarantee there's someone out there who thinks we suck.

That's not what I was saying at all.....

It actually was.

This is fundamentally the same thing

You said that your building a mythic was the same as my AA clear. I know it's ridiculous. That's why I pointed it out. If they were anywhere near the same, they would or should have a similar reward. They are not the same. They have completely different rewards and are done for completely different reasons.

So by your logic, I can go read a forum, ask how to gear X job, and perform properly based on other ppl's experience and tell you "I'm a skilled player!"? Not convinced.

In FFXI you can basically just copy and paste gear sets from other ppl and do exactly the same thing.

First of all, I didn't say that at all, but...

In (your) theory, yes. But in practice, NO. Just like reading a book on karate doesn't make you a black belt, reading about how to be a good bard doesn't make it so. You're crazy if you think it does. I've read all those scripts and things on the forums. I have needs they don't meet. They make things easier, but they definitely don't do all the work. And to be honest, my macros are different from yours. Just looking at them would probably freak you out. Making macros is in and of itself a skill.

There is a funny book out there that says that the trick to flying is "to throw yourself at the ground ..... and miss". While fundamentally correct, I've yet to meet anyone who succeeded based on that.

Afania

09-16-2014, 04:21 AM

An easy example is bard. People constantly complain both in game an on this forum about people singing everything with terpander and empyrian gear. That's an obvious bad move, because you can easily see the harp and gear while they are singing, but the same thing happens a million times every day on every job. There's that monk who doesn't swap to empy body for weapon skills when impetus is up. theres that one that does swap to it even if he just missed the last hit. there's a million shades of grey.

Sometimes ppl don't swap to specific gears because they don't have them/choose not to get them.

A
You can call it stupid or experience or macros or scripts or whatever you want, but it's all skill in one form or another and it varies from player to player. As good as my gear and your gear makes us, I guarantee there's someone out there who thinks we suck.

I don't think other ppl's opinion matter in this discussion though, anyone can find a million reasons to complain another player suck......again being good or bad is subjective.

It actually was.

I didn't say a thing about mythic should drop from AA fight, nor reward from AA solo.

You said that your building a mythic was the same as my AA clear. I know it's ridiculous. That's why I pointed it out. If they were anywhere near the same, they would or should have a similar reward. They are not the same. They have completely different rewards and are done for completely different reasons.

They're done to satisfy the need for accomplishment, and it's not done by everyone, in that aspect it's the same. You keep talking about the reward, I was talking the motivation to do it.

You think it's different because my motivation already being twisted into something else by you, lol.

In (your) theory, yes. But in practice, NO. Just like reading a book on karate doesn't make you a black belt, reading about how to be a good bard doesn't make it so. You're crazy if you think it does. I've read all those scripts and things on the forums. I have needs they don't meet. They make things easier, but they definitely don't do all the work. And to be honest, my macros are different from yours. Just looking at them would probably freak you out. Making macros is in and of itself a skill.

You're comparing real life skill with FFXI jobs, which isn't even comparable. As long as you're using standard Karate equipment(not wearing an armor etc) in a competition, your performance is mostly based on skill. Wearing different karate equipment doesn't change your performance as much.

In FFXI if you DD with Tsuru v.s another DD using hagun, there's a huge difference.

Demonjustin

09-16-2014, 07:03 AM

skill noun
: the ability to do something that comes from training, experience, or practiceSo by your logic, I can go read a forum, ask how to gear X job, and perform properly based on other ppl's experience and tell you "I'm a skilled player!"? Not convinced.How is reading a forum and asking how to play a job a form of training, experience, or practice? Reading about an experience is not itself experiencing said thing, it's also not practicing it, nor is it a form of training tied to the subject unless that subject is reading. If skill is "the ability to do something that comes from training, experience, or practice" then no amount of reading about FFXI on a forum will ever amount to even the slightest bit of skill, as no amount of reading on a forum will give you any experience, practice, or training, when it comes to actually playing FFXI.

Alhanelem

09-16-2014, 02:34 PM

+1 to people finding this irritating and probably one of the reasons I haven't been continuously subscribed lately.

Bebekeke

09-16-2014, 02:49 PM

How is reading a forum and asking how to play a job a form of training, experience, or practice? Reading about an experience is not itself experiencing said thing, it's also not practicing it, nor is it a form of training tied to the subject unless that subject is reading. If skill is "the ability to do something that comes from training, experience, or practice" then no amount of reading about FFXI on a forum will ever amount to even the slightest bit of skill, as no amount of reading on a forum will give you any experience, practice, or training, when it comes to actually playing FFXI.

Precisely this.

You can read everything there is on how to gear your job properly. You can then go and get all that gear and set all the macros up just like you were told, but just because your SCH (as an example) has all the best gear for stunning, doesn't mean that you're skillful enough to actually stun a TP move.

And that applies to hitting your -PDT/MDT macros when a big TP move is being readied, too. Or not using your WS in the middle of a SAM or BLU's self-SC or any other job using sekanokki.

Nor does it mean that you're not going to be 'that guy' that runs in to a particularly hard fight and hits your 2 hour immediately and ends up ketting yourself killed before you've had a chance to use it fully because you didn't let the tank take hate, or whatever. Or you get the WHM killed because they're spamming cures on your to keep you alive, or they just run out of MP after 30 secs.

Malithar

09-16-2014, 07:00 PM

Think you guys are hung up on the definition rather than the implication. Sure, reading up on things doesn't equate to experience, but knowing what you're walking into before hand to prepare carries it's own value. Not that any of those things has anything to do with what was being discussed (skill != gear, experience, knowledge, etc), but you can't outright rule out reading up on things either.

Demonjustin

09-16-2014, 08:06 PM

Nah, I just jumped in because I found it funny that even staring the definition of a word in the face this argument is so bad that it was misinterpreted even then. Just feels like an example of how bad this argument is getting in general.

FrankReynolds

09-16-2014, 11:43 PM

Sometimes ppl don't swap to specific gears because they don't have them/choose not to get them.

Sometimes....

I don't think other ppl's opinion matter in this discussion though, anyone can find a million reasons to complain another player suck......again being good or bad is subjective.

You said gear was the only determining factor in performance....

I didn't say a thing about mythic should drop from AA fight, nor reward from AA solo.

Oh, well then I guess we agree that soloing and AA is in no way the same as building a mythic. Glad we cleared that up.

They're done to satisfy the need for accomplishment, and it's not done by everyone, in that aspect it's the same. You keep talking about the reward, I was talking the motivation to do it.

You think it's different because my motivation already being twisted into something else by you, lol.

You put it in writing. This isn't europe. The internet never forgets.

You're comparing real life skill with FFXI jobs, which isn't even comparable. As long as you're using standard Karate equipment(not wearing an armor etc) in a competition, your performance is mostly based on skill. Wearing different karate equipment doesn't change your performance as much.

Neither does reading a wiki about it.

In FFXI if you DD with Tsuru v.s another DD using hagun, there's a huge difference.

In karate if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

Afania

09-17-2014, 12:25 AM

Precisely this.

You can read everything there is on how to gear your job properly. You can then go and get all that gear and set all the macros up just like you were told, but just because your SCH (as an example) has all the best gear for stunning, doesn't mean that you're skillful enough to actually stun a TP move.

And that applies to hitting your -PDT/MDT macros when a big TP move is being readied, too. Or not using your WS in the middle of a SAM or BLU's self-SC or any other job using sekanokki.

Nor does it mean that you're not going to be 'that guy' that runs in to a particularly hard fight and hits your 2 hour immediately and ends up ketting yourself killed before you've had a chance to use it fully because you didn't let the tank take hate, or whatever. Or you get the WHM killed because they're spamming cures on your to keep you alive, or they just run out of MP after 30 secs.

Fine, let's say "stunning TP move" is a skill as you wish. Mrkillface's goal is to play "better than everyone else with better skill". If you can stun TP move, another SCH can also stun TP move, you don't really play better than him.....unless you have better gear that allows you to do other aspect better?

I honestly don't understand the logic behind "I wanna play better than everyone else but I don't care about gear". It simply doesn't make sense in a MMORPG.

In karate if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

Swords in Karate....whhaaaat? Karate in Japanese means "empty handed", so you don't hold weapons when you fight. Again if you like to argue about something, at least do some research about it.....

Lithera

09-17-2014, 01:42 AM

You still learn how to use a bo staff in many different karate schools so just replace sword with twig from a tree or something of equal value.

Demonjustin

09-17-2014, 03:26 AM

In FFXI if you DD with Tsuru v.s another DD using hagun, there's a huge difference.In karate if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.Swords in Karate....whhaaaat? Karate in Japanese means "empty handed", so you don't hold weapons when you fight. Again if you like to argue about something, at least do some research about it.....Ok here, I'll change things up for ya real quick so the argument makes more sense since we're sitting here arguing semantics.

In kendo/kenjutsu if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.Better?

I know this is likely pointless to do but may I ask a favor? If we're going to sit here and argue about something in a game being changed can we at least carry on the argument in a meaningful way? Getting off topic every five posts, dodging questions via semantical arguments, or simply trying to argue like children playing your "cards" against one another is really getting no where. If we're going to waste time, can we at least make the time wasted a bit more meaningful? As it stands this debate seems very facepalm worthy.

Afania

09-17-2014, 03:51 AM

Ok here, I'll change things up for ya real quick so the argument makes more sense since we're sitting here arguing semantics.

Better?

I know this is likely pointless to do but may I ask a favor? If we're going to sit here and argue about something in a game being changed can we at least carry on the argument in a meaningful way? Getting off topic every five posts, dodging questions via semantical arguments, or simply trying to argue like children playing your "cards" against one another is really getting no where. If we're going to waste time, can we at least make the time wasted a bit more meaningful? As it stands this debate seems very facepalm worthy.

It's not my fault that Mrkillface just want to argue for the sake of argument! I already said I can maybe accept the fact that FFXI requires some skill, I still don't understand how gear doesn't play a more important role that you can "play better than everyone else" without good gears. Also I don't understand why Mrkillface's opinion about "I want to play better than everyone else!" isn't the same as being the cool kid in town.

If anything it was Mrkillface that's dodging the questions lol.

FrankReynolds

09-17-2014, 06:45 AM

Glamdring

09-17-2014, 07:32 AM

ok, now that this topic has gotten completely derailed I'm going to do something completely unheard of and necrobump back to the OP's point. I think his question was overly complex. What's really happening-well, I'm not sure who here has had a logic or a journalism course but to "gather the facts" is to get he answers to 5-6 questions, Who? What? When? Where? Why? and when necessary How? because that's the beef, we aren't getting our 5 or 6 elements of a fact, "Why" is conspicuous by its absence.

Who is always the same, the devs and by extention SE. What should be self evident from the thread title if the person starting the thread is any kind of writer which I am sure we will all agree is NOT always the case. When-as we are only addressing denials in this thread obviously the universal when is "never". Where- unless it is a request for area specific content the answer is always a two-fold "at the server and wherever you are logging in". How isn't necessary in a denial as how do you do a how of nothing? Which leaves us with the question that is never answered, WHY is the dev team saying no? I know they usually say server load or balance, well server load we can understand, it's a hardware limitation and while some of our more computer literate types may be interested (and may even know how to beat the limitation) that much detail isn't necessary to the run of the mill player. but "balance" is the argumentative equivalent of that parental argument used by parents when their 3 year old child just out-reasoned them "because I'm your <parent> and I said so".

Example: pet food and jugs for beast only stack to 12 instead of 99 for balance reasons because the other 3 pet job's food and called pets only stack to 0, which any player with even half of a single functioning brain cell immediately thinks possibly because other pets are free and of an entirely different mechanism to get (the argument that we can have a free pet at any time is a completely bogus argument, only instanced content counts now and we haven't been able to charm a pet in an instance since level 75 was the cap). Well, every job has examples of this in requests for a change or just information, this isn't a beast-only rant. Look how long red mage had to complain to get ANYTHING of consequence, balance could not have been the issue, if rdm was a threat to be overpowered they might have been desired in SOME KIND of end-game content, but they weren't.

what we are asking is when we get the generic politely phrased "gotohell" answer that we at least get some reasoning to support it. a good example would be your explanation for not fixing Accomplice on thief as a good amount of detail.

Demonjustin

09-17-2014, 10:25 AM

It's not my fault that Mrkillface just want to argue for the sake of argument! I already said I can maybe accept the fact that FFXI requires some skill, I still don't understand how gear doesn't play a more important role that you can "play better than everyone else" without good gears. Also I don't understand why Mrkillface's opinion about "I want to play better than everyone else!" isn't the same as being the cool kid in town.

If anything it was Mrkillface that's dodging the questions lol.I'm not pointing fingers because in all honesty I don't care. I've hardly paid attention at this point to much of this at all. The part I have paid attention to is that it's all getting fairly poor, both of you to some extent could be seen as acting at very least a bit childish. That's part of why I made a point of requesting we actually try to have a civil and meaningful conversation if we're going to bother having one. If we just continue how this has been going then SE will ignore it all, the topic will continue to be derailed but even more meaninglessly, and neither side will come away caring about the outcome of it all nor will they have learnt anything. I find debates like those to be pointless wastes of time.

Afania

09-17-2014, 08:31 PM

My playing well doesn't harm anyone. Not having access to gear does.

Not having access to gear doesn't harm anyone lol. You don't get hurt, you don't starve, you just.....don't have certain pixel item/accomplishment in a video game. After you log off you still have your family, friends and job, not having a pixel item/accomplishment won't affect you a bit. What harm does that do?

Video game needs accomplishment so players are willing to pay monthly fee, but players doesn't NEED accomplishment in a video game to survive, you're getting it wrong. If this game has no accomplishment that I'm interested in I'd just click cancel sub button, if I don't have certain shiny in this game I wouldn't feel unhappy about it.

I'm not pointing fingers because in all honesty I don't care. I've hardly paid attention at this point to much of this at all. The part I have paid attention to is that it's all getting fairly poor, both of you to some extent could be seen as acting at very least a bit childish. That's part of why I made a point of requesting we actually try to have a civil and meaningful conversation if we're going to bother having one. If we just continue how this has been going then SE will ignore it all, the topic will continue to be derailed but even more meaninglessly, and neither side will come away caring about the outcome of it all nor will they have learnt anything. I find debates like those to be pointless wastes of time.

Only if Mrkillface stop downplaying my motivation into something else and think so high of his own motivation!

Also this entire thread has no purpose to begin with. If SE doesn't reply at all then ppl complained, if SE reply with "Currently have no plans to....." ppl still complain. It's complaining about something not even worth complaining, nor talking about an in game issue.

Lithera

09-17-2014, 09:32 PM

*head-desks and face-palms*

Afania

09-17-2014, 10:00 PM

*head-desks and face-palms*

requesting we actually try to have a civil and meaningful conversation if we're going to bother having one.

FYI Demonjustin isnt' happy.

Demonjustin

09-17-2014, 11:05 PM

I'm almost never happy, but that's beside the point. In all honesty part of what you just did is why I said this is childish.

Only if Mrkillface stop downplaying my motivation into something else and think so high of his own motivation!More or less finger pointing, saying "he did it first!", and attempting to justify poorly constructed replies by claiming their replies are what led to the degradation of your own. Not trying to come off like a pretentious prick but if you want to have a real debate the best way isn't to set the bar only as high as the person you're debating sets it for you. If you take it seriously and they do such things then anyone coming in such as myself can easily tell who's acting like a child in the situation. If you see someone acting like a child and as a result allow that mindset to consume your own then you've only allowed the debate to degrade into a childish argument and killed any chance you had to maintain a more serious position, especially to those looking in on it from the outside.

This is why I'm not pointing fingers, I quite honestly don't care who began to misinterpreted the other's argument, it's of no importance. You both allowed what could have been a decent debate about something in the game become a semantical argument over stupid BS, such as when an example of Karate is made and in return, ignoring the point of the comment, it's pointed out that Karate doesn't involve swords. People on these forums and how they debate things annoys the hell out of me quite frankly, I mean hell, we have another thread which over the last week had become an argument about the word vanilla. Really, we have a forum for a game, and we're arguing about the meaning of the word vanilla. Why is it so hard to just take an argument at face value and reply to it, and if your argument is misunderstood then attempt to correct the misunderstanding by better asserting your point? I've argued with people on here for a few years now and learnt quite a bit in doing so, but looking at it now it feels kinda pathetic being part of a community that has such a hard time entertaining a thought for more than 10 posts without someone derailing it into something completely meaningless and stupid or turning it into a battle of who can better dodge points and misinterpreted arguments made against them...

I you're right though. I'm not happy, I'm disappointed in the community I've become a part of over the last few years.

Also this entire thread has no purpose to begin with. If SE doesn't reply at all then ppl complained, if SE reply with "Currently have no plans to....." ppl still complain. It's complaining about something not even worth complaining, nor talking about an in game issue.There's no victory in telling a community no constantly or ignoring them. Neither one will ever lead to happy people. Both of those things are what we've gotten. In the past it was ignoring every thread practically with only 1/10 possibly getting a reply, most of which were either an answer of "no" or "not at the moment". You'd be hard pressed to find someone who is happy with either of these results. While I'm not going to say all suggestions are equal or most suggestions should be implemented, surely more than 5% of suggestions are worth at least considering... When our response is almost always nearly identical to our last and they all look like they follow some sort of copy paste formula that could be filled out by simply reading the title of the thread, a few lines of the OP, and then hitting "Post Reply" when finished, it's no wonder people aren't happy about it.

While this thread didn't have much of anywhere to go in terms of an actual topic, it did have a point to make, and I think it did it well. Continuing to post here even off topic keeps that thought in mind as the name of the thread alone is enough to refresh in our minds just how often SE has told us this same thing, and continues to tell us it again every few days. So, derailing this topic isn't really a bad thing to me, had no where to go and we're keeping the thread and it's idea relevant, great thing to do when this argument would happen anyways in another thread in less than a week anyways but would serve less purpose at that point. So, while I disagree it has no purpose, I honestly don't mind a meaningful derail of it since it seems more beneficial than detrimental. My issue is only when the argument becomes so poor it's not only painful to watch/read but also getting no where at all.

FrankReynolds

09-18-2014, 12:07 AM

I was going to reply to this...

Not having access to gear doesn't harm anyone lol. You don't get hurt, you don't starve, you just.....don't have certain pixel item/accomplishment in a video game. After you log off you still have your family, friends and job, not having a pixel item/accomplishment won't affect you a bit. What harm does that do?

But you seem to have rebuked your own argument....

Video game needs accomplishment so players are willing to pay monthly fee, but players doesn't NEED accomplishment in a video game to survive, you're getting it wrong. If this game has no accomplishment that I'm interested in I'd just click cancel sub button, if I don't have certain shiny in this game I wouldn't feel unhappy about it.

Afania

09-18-2014, 01:20 AM

I
More or less finger pointing, saying "he did it first!", and attempting to justify poorly constructed replies by claiming their replies are what led to the degradation of your own.

This is more like a joking/not serious way to counter someone's argument that's based on subjective POV but not proper logic nor reasoning.

This is more of an issue that Mrkillface continue to construct his argument out of HIS logic, by applying his subjective POV on everyone, and not respecting other's opinion. Every point I made, he just dismissed it with "I think you're just X" "Nahhhh, I think you're X! You're just X!" or "I think fun is Y"....basically everything is HIS opinion, and not supported with a reason.

Since there's no way I can counter anyone's subjective argument with reasoning, besides a not so serious attitude "he did it first!"

FYI, he did counter my opinion with a solid reason once, which is the definition of skill= practice and experience, and I DID accept his opinion that playing FFXI is a skill, just doesn't affect the performance nearly as much as gears. I don't think clicking macros very fast is a skill(thus you think it's "poorly constructed because it was indeed based on my subjective POV"), but it could fit the definition if you look into it. If someone express his POV out of a fact, but not opinion, then I will accept it.

Everything else is basically based on "No you just wanna be a cool kid in town because I said so!" or "I don't think long grind is accomplishment nor fun because I said so!" "If ppl can't aim for every gear in this game it's bad because I said so!"

Right, definition of fun is his opinion, I got it. But surely there isn't a reason to brought it up over and over again as there won't be a real conclusion over this.

Also, there's a reason why dev won't reply every request, game dev's often view game issues from completely different POV from gamers most of the time. Some of the request are beyond silly on these forums, and replying everything needs resources. Some requests makes sense on these forums, but very 1 sided without math support, just personal experience that doesn't apply to everyone. Topic derailing surely isn't the reason why dev ignored us.

There's also a reason why I replied to that Karate thing. He used Karate as an argument about skill v.s gears. I replied that in standard Karate competitions, you don't hold swords, you fight with bare hands, so it's not a good example. It's not derailing, it's relevant to the discussion.

I was going to reply to this...

But you seem to have rebuked your own argument....

See? Not this again. I fail to see in what way that I "rebuked my own argument". If you like other accomplishments like short grind or solo AA, just go do it. I didn't ask SE to remove every accomplishment in game besides long term goal. But removing long grind would means less goal to aim for players liking long grind.

Demonjustin

09-18-2014, 02:15 AM

Also, there's a reason why dev won't reply every request, game dev's often view game issues from completely different POV from gamers most of the time. Some of the request are beyond silly on these forums, and replying everything needs resources. Some requests makes sense on these forums, but very 1 sided without math support, just personal experience that doesn't apply to everyone. Topic derailing surely isn't the reason why dev ignored us.As I said, I don't expect a reply to everything nor do I expect all ideas to be implemented. That said, saying no to literally more than 3/4ths of the ideas ever presented no matter their degree of support from the community nor their degree of reasoning presented in them is simply ludicrous. I don't believe this thread should get a response except for at most an explanation as to why so many ideas are turned down so often. The fact this was derailed as I said before is actually something I think is a good thing, not a bad thing. It keeps this up top in General Discussion at nearly all times which is wonderful as the title alone serves as a reminder to why this thread was even made. My problem with derailing is when we go from a meaningful topic in this thread to something stupid and nonsensical, when the argument becomes stupid, pointless, and circular, getting no where and only wasting the time of those involved. I love debates where people learn, grow, or change their mind based on things presented in general, but debates where people just run in circles, misinterpret arguments, argue semantics, or ignore points made, are debates that serve only to waste time. This to some extent was becoming one of those, which is why I popped in here as I did.

There's also a reason why I replied to that Karate thing. He used Karate as an argument about skill v.s gears. I replied that in standard Karate competitions, you don't hold swords, you fight with bare hands, so it's not a good example. It's not derailing, it's relevant to the discussion.You ignored the substance of the point rather than addressing it, and instead addressed an irrelevant inaccuracy in which form of combat was being practiced in the example. As I showed earlier, by simply changing karate to kendo/kenjutsu you instantly fix the entire problem with that sentence. If you understood what was being said, you should have replied to the idea behind it, not simply ignored it and pointed out that using karate for the example was inaccurate.

All of that said, I believe the point behind it was that gear makes a difference but skill does too. You can have an example that is fair, or one that is not. A swordmaster in robes, armed with a shinai vs an average swordsman in armor, armed with a katana isn't a fair fight. The swordmaster may win, but the chances of victory are so far slanted against them that it's a ridiculous example of equipment beating out skill. This was similar to your argument that a Tsurumaru wielding SAM will beat out a Hagun wielding SAM quite easily. It's not literally impossible for the Hagun SAM to win, but you've slanted the odds so far against them that even if they were the best SAM to ever grace this game, and the Tsurumaru SAM had only been playing for the last three hours and barely understood the game's combat system, the Tsurumaru SAM would likely still win. There are gaps skill can close, but not all gaps are equal, there comes a point when skill no longer becomes a substitute, and I doubt you'll find many who will say skill means everything. That said, skill is by no means something to be discounted, you simply must have odds that present a fair example rather than one such as that.

Olor

09-18-2014, 02:30 AM

There's no victory in telling a community no constantly or ignoring them. Neither one will ever lead to happy people. Both of those things are what we've gotten. In the past it was ignoring every thread practically with only 1/10 possibly getting a reply, most of which were either an answer of "no" or "not at the moment". You'd be hard pressed to find someone who is happy with either of these results. While I'm not going to say all suggestions are equal or most suggestions should be implemented, surely more than 5% of suggestions are worth at least considering... When our response is almost always nearly identical to our last and they all look like they follow some sort of copy paste formula that could be filled out by simply reading the title of the thread, a few lines of the OP, and then hitting "Post Reply" when finished, it's no wonder people aren't happy about it.

This. This so much. I think if we were at least given reasonable explanations for things, or even honest ones, then it might be different. But most of the time the reasons are nonsensical "we can't add those monsters as pets because they are scary!" or plain wrong "Knights of the Round is already very strong."

It doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that most of the time we either get nonsense answers, the silent treatment, or a copy-paste non response. "There are no plans" is probably the worst pat answer I've ever seen. For the most part we were aware that there "were no plans" which is why we are suggesting the devs make plans. Then, most of the time that we do get real news, it is just translated from JP posts. It's insulting.

Alhanelem

09-18-2014, 03:13 AM

As much as I like official responses, i'd rather them not say anything than constantly say "no plans" "no plans" "no plans" "no plans" "no plans" "no plans""no plans" all the time. Other than the combined NA and JP backlash at the terrible "learning chance" job point category getting us a change, there's been few cases where anyone's feed back (JP or otherwise) seems to have produced results.

One thing that's been bugging me in particular is how there's been no update to monstrosity in quite some time. I'd like to see some improvements to belligerency to incentivize participation, and the usual new families and content for monipulators (and where is the MON on MON combat that the NPCs even refer to despite it not being available?)

Xerius

09-18-2014, 03:35 AM

Also this entire thread has no purpose to begin with. If SE doesn't reply at all then ppl complained, if SE reply with "Currently have no plans to....." ppl still complain. It's complaining about something not even worth complaining, nor talking about an in game issue.

If this thread has no purpose then I would argue that the entire forums serves no purpose. The point of this thread was to point out a disturbing trend that many people (myself included, obviously) with the devs not paying any attention to what the player base wants and just saying there are no plans for anything that we submit regardless of merit or not. No one is saying that they shouldn't tell us anything, I'm not even saying they shouldn't tell us, "The development team does not currently have plans to..." all we're saying that we'd like to know:
A) An explanation for why things would break the game.
B) Let us know what they do have planned.

Bebekeke

09-18-2014, 03:42 AM

Lithera

09-18-2014, 04:09 AM

We all know the devs look at the game differently than we do. The thing is more and more it feels that the dev team doesn't regularly play the game often or at least with their dev goggles off. I mean look at the sorry we can't boost pets because then they would become too OP. The pet job community went wait whaaaat? That's an example of the misunderstanding between the player base and the dev team. So even when they sometimes give us please look er we have no plans to do this response but get a smidge of a bs answer or one that confuses us as players it makes us feel like they are not playing the same game as we are.

Also look at the reasoning we got as why we couldn't get warp scrolls to stack and got a stfu and go away new item. Like we're a small child that their parent hopes are distracted by the car keys dangling in front of their face. Not that the ring is a bad thing, but it just feels like we got it so we would stop asking for warp scrolls to stack. Which it has.

Selindrile

09-18-2014, 04:41 AM

Also look at the reasoning we got as why we couldn't get warp scrolls to stack and got a stfu and go away new item. Like we're a small child that their parent hopes are distracted by the car keys dangling in front of their face. Not that the ring is a bad thing, but it just feels like we got it so we would stop asking for warp scrolls to stack. Which it has.

There's more than a little irony in this, while their reasoning was wacky for not letting warp scrolls stack, they effectively gave us more than what we were asking for, which was "Hey, let us not have to talk to the guy who sells warp scrolls EVERY time we warp or manage multiple warp cudgels, it's a pain and inventory is an issue."

But the fact that the warp ring shut us up kinda proves their reason for not stacking warp scrolls was silly >.> nobody was asking for a way to warp out of dangerous situations quickly, nobody cares about that, a warp is essentially the same as a death in XI, for most purposes. Heck, even WITH a warp ring I sometimes run into mobs to die if there are high level ones near me, as it's faster than waiting for the cooldown and fishing it out of my satchel.

Olor

09-18-2014, 05:29 AM

There's more than a little irony in this, while their reasoning was wacky for not letting warp scrolls stack, they effectively gave us more than what we were asking for, which was "Hey, let us not have to talk to the guy who sells warp scrolls EVERY time we warp or manage multiple warp cudgels, it's a pain and inventory is an issue."

But the fact that the warp ring shut us up kinda proves their reason for not stacking warp scrolls was silly >.> nobody was asking for a way to warp out of dangerous situations quickly, nobody cares about that, a warp is essentially the same as a death in XI, for most purposes. Heck, even WITH a warp ring I sometimes run into mobs to die if there are high level ones near me, as it's faster than waiting for the cooldown and fishing it out of my satchel.

Its like the previous poster said - it is obvious that very few if any members of the development team have played the game for the last 5 or 6 years. As if anyone at 99 cares about losing a few exp. Like you, am happy to dive into a pile of monsters to die quickly...

I'm glad they gave us the warp ring - its way better than the scrolls were anyway, stacked or not... but yeah, their reasoning was just absolutely bizarre regardless. And don't get me started on pets. It gives me the rage to see them refuse to uncap them, then just reissue the same ones. Why waste dev time that way? Is it so they can pretend they are improving BST? I seriously don't get it.

Ris

09-18-2014, 05:33 AM

Olor

09-18-2014, 05:42 AM

I only discovered the warp ring after running around way too much and I'm pretty happy to have it >.> <.< I use it a lot every day I log in and I'd kill to have that cape that lets me teleport to the party leader have a cooldown anywhere close to that short.

nexus cape. yeah I wish it was (at most) a 1 hour cool down. I also wish it worked in more places. It's way too limited.

Afania

09-18-2014, 08:55 PM

If this thread has no purpose then I would argue that the entire forums serves no purpose. The point of this thread was to point out a disturbing trend that many people (myself included, obviously) with the devs not paying any attention to what the player base wants and just saying there are no plans for anything that we submit regardless of merit or not. No one is saying that they shouldn't tell us anything, I'm not even saying they shouldn't tell us, "The development team does not currently have plans to..." all we're saying that we'd like to know:
A) An explanation for why things would break the game.
B) Let us know what they do have planned.

Well, I agree that a few suggestions would deserve a reply like A and B, but at least 95% of suggestions don't. Also, just because certain suggestion doesn't break the game, doesn't mean they'd have to follow the suggestion or plan on something.

"May I have double ichor campaign plz!" Suggestion like this only benefits current mythic builders AND ppl play during the campaign. Of course giving out a double ichor campaign doesn't break the game, thus you can't really ask the dev to explain why there double ichor campaign is game breaking or anything. It's also not an in game issue that requires a fix, thus it's also not reasonable to ask the dev what they're planning.

Just because the gamer asked something that's not game breaking, doesn't mean it'd require a fix. Changing a design in game is more than just spending 10 min and write a new code after all.

Lithera

09-18-2014, 10:29 PM

nexus cape. yeah I wish it was (at most) a 1 hour cool down. I also wish it worked in more places. It's way too limited.

They tied it to one of the early expansions thus the limited area you can use it in. Though it would be nice to be able to use it in more areas these days with a shorter cool down. Still one of the better ways to get to the back of CN without having to run through it.

FrankReynolds

09-19-2014, 12:20 AM

Xerius

09-19-2014, 02:34 AM

Well, I agree that a few suggestions would deserve a reply like A and B, but at least 95% of suggestions don't. Also, just because certain suggestion doesn't break the game, doesn't mean they'd have to follow the suggestion or plan on something.

"May I have double ichor campaign plz!" Suggestion like this only benefits current mythic builders AND ppl play during the campaign. Of course giving out a double ichor campaign doesn't break the game, thus you can't really ask the dev to explain why there double ichor campaign is game breaking or anything. It's also not an in game issue that requires a fix, thus it's also not reasonable to ask the dev what they're planning.

Just because the gamer asked something that's not game breaking, doesn't mean it'd require a fix. Changing a design in game is more than just spending 10 min and write a new code after all.

I don't think the issue is the volume of the replies but the quality of them. For the first time in months the Dev Tracker isn't full of "The development team does not currently have plans to..."

I think that's a good thing and no one is saying they need to implement every decent idea but I can only think of one thing in recent history that was brought to their attention that they did change and that's the BLU 'Chance to learn' JP category.

I do realize that it requires a lot of effort to fix a design however, I don't think it's okay for the Dev Team to break the game (like they did with SAM after the WS update) and then just turn a blind eye especially, after pet jobs and magic jobs have been asking for fixes for months now. No one was asking for a WS update and it didn't really solve any problems it actually widened the chasm that made it so only a few jobs were desired for end game.

Ris

09-19-2014, 04:31 AM

I do realize that it requires a lot of effort to fix a design however, I don't think it's okay for the Dev Team to break the game (like they did with SAM after the WS update) and then just turn a blind eye especially, after pet jobs and magic jobs have been asking for fixes for months now. No one was asking for a WS update and it didn't really solve any problems it actually widened the chasm that made it so only a few jobs were desired for end game.

Hmm. Sorry if those goes a little off topic, but... could someone ELI5 what's wrong with pet and magic jobs to me? They seem like they would be pretty versatile and reasonably capable of clearing endgame content...

Is it just that people min/max and saving that extra minute on a fight means jobs that are slightly less efficient don't get invited, or is it some deeper flaw with the mechanics of those jobs?

Afania

09-19-2014, 05:45 AM

All the campaigns only benefit people who do the content and people who are playing during the campaign. This example is no different from any other campaign in that respect and requires far less code than some.

I don't think you get my point, campaigns are just bonus, not an in game issue that requires a fix. It is not a big deal if SE didn't respond properly for requests like this.

Olor

09-19-2014, 06:09 AM

Hmm. Sorry if those goes a little off topic, but... could someone ELI5 what's wrong with pet and magic jobs to me? They seem like they would be pretty versatile and reasonably capable of clearing endgame content...

Is it just that people min/max and saving that extra minute on a fight means jobs that are slightly less efficient don't get invited, or is it some deeper flaw with the mechanics of those jobs?

Well... there is min maxing, and there is terrible balance. A pet job like PUP or BST is likely to put out, at best 50-65 per cent of the output of a SAM - without any real added benefit. SMN also does terrible damage but at least they can buff the party.

BLMs have been screwed by the fact that they have to manage MP ***AND*** their damage output is much lower overall than melee damage dealers... so a similar problem. It wasn't so bad but then SE came in and buffed TP gain AND buffed Weaponskills - leaving magic damage in the dust. Frankly the devs do that too often... bring in updates that buff some jobs (almost always jobs that need no buffs) and then leave everything else unusable.

Those changes also made gap between pet users and regular melee jobs even bigger.

Honestly if the difference between the best jobs and the rest was like 10 or even 15 per cent people would be annoyed but it wouldn't just be plain stupid to bring those jobs. As it is now, these jobs are just so bad you're holding back your group significantly when you go to events on them. So it goes much further than min-maxing if that makes sense.

Ris

09-19-2014, 06:42 AM

Olor

09-19-2014, 07:45 AM

Thanks for the explanation. Usually I don't really support DPS job homogenization like WoW and ARR did because, well, it makes them much less interesting... but while I can see a 10% or so DPS difference thanks to utility and buffs and stuff like that.... melee doing 200% of the damage of magic and pet classes does seem a little bit out there...

I also don't want jobs homogenized - it is one of the reasons I don't like FFXIV.

That said, the gap is currently totally unreasonable - especially given the, at best, mediocre utility of these jobs. At least on my BLU I can buff myself, smack stuff with my swords, buff and heal others etc. On BST... well I can hit stuff with my axe and watch my pet whiff...

Glamdring

09-19-2014, 08:17 AM

asking for a simple Double X campaign is hardly an imposition, they are doing them anyway. letting them know what players are actually interested in actually seems more like a helpful thing to me. For example, my interest is the crafting skill-up rate ones, I think they need to be longer given the need to accumulate materials to take advantage of them properly, especially when you have to farm because there are never the right mats on the AH for your level synth-and it may be cost-prohibitive even if they were. I don't think it needs an answer unless it will be a flat denial and then I'd like an explanation why it is denied. After all, at the rate XP accumulates do we REALLY need a steady diet of double XP campaigns? Wouldn't a diet of skill-up campaigns be much more useful to the vast majority of players? If most of us think so, SE should probably be made aware of that.

But requests for things like increasing the damage, accuracy and defense of jug pets to be in line with what they were pre-ilevel days, that deserves an explanation as a beast can only function in end-game content with jug pets, and with the reduced stats we are not just ineffective but an actual liability, coupled with being the only pet job that has to pay to participate that's a huge concern. And as most of those issues are universal to ALL pet jobs that's over 1/6 of available jobs stuck in that boat. SE made the job system on the assumption that any job can function so you could play the way you like; getting no answer from them and the even less useful "level something else" from the players goes beyond being ignored into the realm of the deliberate insult. Answers are warranted when you are to all intents and purposes deleting 4/22 of the available jobs from endgame. The answer they've given of using job points is wholly unsatisfactory as we will be spending ours just to play catch-up to where jobs with no JP spent are currently, they will be spending to improve their performance above their base capabilities. I can't see it as rudeness or an imposition for pet job players en masse to be asking for a bit of a dialog there. We need to make plans if we are to scrap our pet jobs and still play, or to decide if next month's subscription fees are worth spending if we are that tied to the job we like.

and the pet job issue is just an example of the kinds of questions we are asking that deserve real answers. Look how long it's taken red mages begging to finally be given relevance again, and even that is really only if your primary DD will be rangers or corsairs. How often were red mages getting any reply, once every 4 months on average, only to be told there were no plans? In what way, shape, form or fashion is that to be considered acceptable when you created a forum to have a dialog with players? no, OP's question and the major support he's gotten from players agreeing with him is completely justified. Now, I'll agree that given the tone of some posters (and the asinine requests of others) there are times when SE should not just ignore the poster and their question but give serious consideration to adding a dunce cap to their avatar but that still leaves about 75% of posts as worthy of a reply to the thread-granted, if there are 6 threads all saying the same thing I don't believe they need to reply in all 6-but at least 1 would be very nice.

Xerius

09-19-2014, 02:02 PM

Well... there is min maxing, and there is terrible balance. A pet job like PUP or BST is likely to put out, at best 50-65 per cent of the output of a SAM - without any real added benefit. SMN also does terrible damage but at least they can buff the party.

BLMs have been screwed by the fact that they have to manage MP ***AND*** their damage output is much lower overall than melee damage dealers... so a similar problem. It wasn't so bad but then SE came in and buffed TP gain AND buffed Weaponskills - leaving magic damage in the dust. Frankly the devs do that too often... bring in updates that buff some jobs (almost always jobs that need no buffs) and then leave everything else unusable.

Those changes also made gap between pet users and regular melee jobs even bigger.

Honestly if the difference between the best jobs and the rest was like 10 or even 15 per cent people would be annoyed but it wouldn't just be plain stupid to bring those jobs. As it is now, these jobs are just so bad you're holding back your group significantly when you go to events on them. So it goes much further than min-maxing if that makes sense.

Not even just that. Mages also have an extremely hard time managing their enmity which is pathetic when you compare how much damage a BLM will do compared to a RNG which is virtually hateless and to make it even more lolsy our best DD spell is stuck on a 10 minute timer.

DRG has struggled as a melee job for years because if they ask for a damage upgrade their told they have wyverns that help balance damage (which it doesn't) and if they ask for pet buffs they're told that the dev team is afraid they'll become too powerful (which they won't).

BST has never been able to get into parties no matter what they've done with the job. SMN while they have their buffs, things like Avatar's Favor's 'charge time' make it nigh impossible to actually reach your full potential. RDM still hasn't really found a niche except within RNG parties.

If you're a BLU you're certainly not setting magic spells unless it's for a JA and no one knows whether GEO is supposed to deal damage, debuff or support.

Sorry if that was a little ranty, talking about this stuff always gets me heated.

Malithar

09-19-2014, 07:23 PM

and no one knows whether GEO is supposed to deal damage, debuff or support.

All of the above, and then some. A well played Geo is top tier now, easily.

Afania

09-19-2014, 08:30 PM

asking for a simple Double X campaign is hardly an imposition, they are doing them anyway. letting them know what players are actually interested in actually seems more like a helpful thing to me.

Asking dev to implement some short term instant gratification in this game is fine.

Asking dev to implement some short term instant gratification then started a forum thread demanding a proper reply including "why" and "when" is asking too much.

.....Hello SE! I'd like an ergon weapon deliver to my inbox so I can be super happy for next 1 month, if you guys are not planning on it please explain why it breaks the game and what's your next plan to keep me happy, thanks!

Ris

09-20-2014, 01:10 AM

Not even just that. Mages also have an extremely hard time managing their enmity which is pathetic when you compare how much damage a BLM will do compared to a RNG which is virtually hateless and to make it even more lolsy our best DD spell is stuck on a 10 minute timer.

DRG has struggled as a melee job for years because if they ask for a damage upgrade their told they have wyverns that help balance damage (which it doesn't) and if they ask for pet buffs they're told that the dev team is afraid they'll become too powerful (which they won't).

BST has never been able to get into parties no matter what they've done with the job. SMN while they have their buffs, things like Avatar's Favor's 'charge time' make it nigh impossible to actually reach your full potential. RDM still hasn't really found a niche except within RNG parties.

If you're a BLU you're certainly not setting magic spells unless it's for a JA and no one knows whether GEO is supposed to deal damage, debuff or support.

Sorry if that was a little ranty, talking about this stuff always gets me heated.

The only one I can kind of see being OK like that is BST, since that was always meant to be a soloist job in a party based game. Buuut.. even in the early 2000s, I think I remember SE using the "we're afraid X will become too powerful" excuse. Sounds like they would be better off making something a little too powerful and then scaling back a bit than leaving things like this, though....

I did see DRG got some buffs recently. Did that help them at all or is it still loldrg?

Xerius

09-20-2014, 02:51 AM

The only one I can kind of see being OK like that is BST, since that was always meant to be a soloist job in a party based game. Buuut.. even in the early 2000s, I think I remember SE using the "we're afraid X will become too powerful" excuse. Sounds like they would be better off making something a little too powerful and then scaling back a bit than leaving things like this, though....

I did see DRG got some buffs recently. Did that help them at all or is it still loldrg?

It only helped with Wyvern survivability a little bit which really wasn't an issue in the first place. :/

Bebekeke

09-20-2014, 03:36 AM

It only helped with Wyvern survivability a little bit which really wasn't an issue in the first place. :/

I think you maybe missed the most recent DRG buff... JA haste, att and def boost when the wyvern levels up (with 5/5 empathy this caps after just 1 spirit link). It allows DRG to sub WAR while still capping haste, and makes it extremely powerful during the DoT phase... now, if only all the polearm WS didn't suck....

Xerius

09-20-2014, 04:28 AM

I think you maybe missed the most recent DRG buff... JA haste, att and def boost when the wyvern levels up (with 5/5 empathy this caps after just 1 spirit link). It allows DRG to sub WAR while still capping haste, and makes it extremely powerful during the DoT phase... now, if only all the polearm WS didn't suck....

For the wyvern or the Dragoon because from my understanding it was the wyvern that received the benefits. I haven't been able to play much lately so I haven't really tested it myself.

Demonjustin

09-20-2014, 05:15 AM

Malithar

09-20-2014, 06:25 AM

For the wyvern or the Dragoon because from my understanding it was the wyvern that received the benefits. I haven't been able to play much lately so I haven't really tested it myself.

No, it's 10% JA haste, 20% att, and 20% def for the Dragoon. No testing needed, the description of the change is quite clear.

Glamdring

09-20-2014, 07:29 AM

Asking dev to implement some short term instant gratification in this game is fine.

Asking dev to implement some short term instant gratification then started a forum thread demanding a proper reply including "why" and "when" is asking too much.

.....Hello SE! I'd like an ergon weapon deliver to my inbox so I can be super happy for next 1 month, if you guys are not planning on it please explain why it breaks the game and what's your next plan to keep me happy, thanks!

CLEARLY you have me confused with someone else if you think I have ever advocated easy-mode and stuff being handed you on a silver platter, the closest I’ve come is a request for more Vw and NM pops in abby, especially for the 2 empy items actually still required for end-game, but since I was asking for that bottleneck to be eased while Abby was still the main playsystem I’d hardly consider that an “easy-mode” request, actually my point is that I’m here to beat the game, not the other players after the same drop I am. If anything, I’m the guy COMPLAINING about easy-mode usually. I did approve-and still advocate-other methods for end-game gear acquisition for those who cannot be on enough for a legitimate shot at an HNMLS-type shell, but NOT easy-mode, more like a LONG grind to be able to purchase. I also thumbed up a request for easing pop requirements for abby based on everyone being able to solo, but not proc, mobs that drop the pop or KI because there simply aren't the people interested in coming just to proc for you.

What I have been a major advocate for is relevance, while balanced. In other words, I’m the guy always advocating for the guy saying “hi, my name is Bob and I’m an alcoholic”… wait, correction “hi, my name is Bob and I’m a Black Mage. I’d like to be YOUR black mage in your upcoming Alluvion Skirmish! Please, love me?!” as opposed to the guy answering him with “monk, ranger or GTFO” whom I would cheerfully invite someone like Anonymous to make a playground of their account. I’m advocating for all jobs to be of approximately equal strength in terms of their contribution to a party, not DPS, but a rdm healing, buffing, debuffing and the occasional damage should be just as valuable as a bard to an end-game party, a beast and pet should be just as valuable as a monk, etc.

So, when players are having real, rational discussions in these forums about identifying the issues and brainstorming possible solutions I think it only appropriate that SE join the discussions, but it seems either they can’t or they won’t, and I’m leaning toward the second based on the “answer” when they finally do decide to grace us with a response, because based on the nature of most of these denial replies I’m hearing a lot of “let them eat cake”. I use that term because when I see the eventual denial I want to give them the same close shave Marie Antoinette got, you know, the one that started at her neck. It's disheartening to players who have come to love this game but being victimized by a clearly identifiable shortcoming to have their issues apparently cavalierly dismissed out of hand.

Afania

09-20-2014, 01:40 PM

I don't even understand why I feel like I need to explain that your example is misrepresenting the suggestion being made...

CLEARLY you have me confused with someone else if you think I have ever advocated easy-mode

This is the thread that caused the community complained about all that "we have no plans" reply:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/43867-Double-Nyzule-Token-event-Double-Ichor-event?highlight=double+ichor

I know it wasn't you who posted this, but OP made this thread after this request. I was just explaining why you guys asked too much if you demand SE to reply everything.

Xerius

09-20-2014, 01:52 PM

No, it's 10% JA haste, 20% att, and 20% def for the Dragoon. No testing needed, the description of the change is quite clear.

Well, regardless I still don't see people shouting for RNG, SAM, MNK or DRG. So, the point still stands.

Malithar

09-20-2014, 05:31 PM

Well, regardless I still don't see people shouting for RNG, SAM, MNK or DRG. So, the point still stands.

Nor will you ever. You people don't seem to understand, PUGs won't suddenly start shouting for something unless the content requires it, gimmicks and such, or the job is buffed to the point that it's the absolute best at what it does. Case in point, Geo is amazingly good in Incursion, yet most pugs that I've seen (at least the ones that shout that don't know better) still don't shout for Geo.

The buff Drg just got was quite potent, it really is up there with the other heavy DDs, Mnk, Drk, and War. But it's not Sam, nor are the other DD jobs; you won't see it shouted for, just like they aren't. Yes, Mnk is shouted for still, good DPS with a few gimmick capable JAs with the highest HP, but that's quickly lost it's use. But Drg is more than capable of DDing very well now. What more would you like?

Afania

09-20-2014, 07:04 PM

Nor will you ever. You people don't seem to understand, PUGs won't suddenly start shouting for something unless the content requires it, gimmicks and such, or the job is buffed to the point that it's the absolute best at what it does. Case in point, Geo is amazingly good in Incursion, yet most pugs that I've seen (at least the ones that shout that don't know better) still don't shout for Geo.

The buff Drg just got was quite potent, it really is up there with the other heavy DDs, Mnk, Drk, and War. But it's not Sam, nor are the other DD jobs; you won't see it shouted for, just like they aren't. Yes, Mnk is shouted for still, good DPS with a few gimmick capable JAs with the highest HP, but that's quickly lost it's use. But Drg is more than capable of DDing very well now. What more would you like?

Ppl really need to stop complain about X job suck based on what's in /shout IMO. That's one the main reason why jobs are unbalanced.

SAM was already a stronger DD than MNK before SC/fudo buff, but everyone and their mother still /shout for a MNK due to higher HP, so ppl complained about other DD are too weak compare with MNK.

Now that's see what SE did.....they buffed SAM to "catch up with MNK" and broke the balance.

You guys can keep complaining about GEO not in /shout so SE can buff it, it will only result a worse job balance.....GEO will get even more buff when it's already one of the most OP job in game.

tl;dr,

What job is good and what's not isn't based on what job ppl /shout for, but the job's actual strength. Stop using "But this job is never in /shout pt" as an argument in a job balance discussion.

Malithar

09-20-2014, 08:24 PM

Glamdring

09-21-2014, 06:32 AM

I'm still seeing plenty of rng shouts on ragnarok. AA are still done and frankly a rng can contribute in almost anything, especially with a brd or rdm, or as I did last night, brd/rdm. Prelude + Flurry=lots of ballistic damage.

Xerius

09-21-2014, 02:10 PM

I dunno why you quoted me, but yes. lol Although tbh I don't think they really read/listen to the complaints about jobs, or Bst and Pup would be the most amazing jobs ever. They may take some things into account, but QQ about job representation falls on deaf ears I'd imagine.

There's QQing and then there is having an actual reason to complain and obviously (I feel like I'm forced to reiterate this every other post) no one is expecting them to implement all or even most of our suggestions but jobs like BLM, SMN and THF have an actual gripe when it seems that the development team can't make up their minds on what they're supposed to do exactly and instead of addressing this they buff jobs that aren't even lacking.

Malithar

09-21-2014, 04:53 PM

There's QQing and then there is having an actual reason to complain and obviously (I feel like I'm forced to reiterate this every other post) no one is expecting them to implement all or even most of our suggestions but jobs like BLM, SMN and THF have an actual gripe when it seems that the development team can't make up their minds on what they're supposed to do exactly and instead of addressing this they buff jobs that aren't even lacking.

You mean like the post where you said "it wasn't enough" in reference to Drg's buff, when you had absolutely no idea what/how they were buffed? Posts like that are the one's I hope devs just ignore to be frank.

What's wrong with Thf now? What's wrong with Blm now? Both have their niches and are capable jobs. Are they omgamazing top notch DDs? No. Should they be? No. A good Thf is in that range of 60-80%ish of a good DD, that's fine IMO. Give up a lil DD for better drops, and in most content as of late (Revamped BCs, Incursion, Aluvion Skirmish) TH does indeed help. Won't even touch the utility a Blm brings, never mind that it's the best DD-ish job capable of DDing with Sam without hampering it's DPS by interrupting SCs. A good Smn is plenty capable of being of value to a party, not every party, and it's not optimal, but being of value is enough in today's content.

Afania

09-21-2014, 08:27 PM

You mean like the post where you said "it wasn't enough" in reference to Drg's buff, when you had absolutely no idea what/how they were buffed? Posts like that are the one's I hope devs just ignore to be frank.

What's wrong with Thf now? What's wrong with Blm now? Both have their niches and are capable jobs. Are they omgamazing top notch DDs? No. Should they be? No. A good Thf is in that range of 60-80%ish of a good DD, that's fine IMO. Give up a lil DD for better drops, and in most content as of late (Revamped BCs, Incursion, Aluvion Skirmish) TH does indeed help. Won't even touch the utility a Blm brings, never mind that it's the best DD-ish job capable of DDing with Sam without hampering it's DPS by interrupting SCs. A good Smn is plenty capable of being of value to a party, not every party, and it's not optimal, but being of value is enough in today's content.

Ppl also use SMN in WoE a lot btw.

FrankReynolds

09-21-2014, 10:24 PM

I don't think you get my point, campaigns are just bonus, not an in game issue that requires a fix. It is not a big deal if SE didn't respond properly for requests like this.

That's probably because you didn't make that point. The reason people are demanding a response to this thread has nothing to do with campaigns. It has to do with the canned response of "we have no plans..." used in almost every thread that the devs respond to. Which, should be evident because it is in the title of the thread.

As for jobs not being judged based on whether they are shouted for... That actually matters. Until DRG, SMN, THF, PUP, BLM, etc. can solo all delve, AA, Skirmish, etc content it will be an issue. Being awesome at content that no one will do with you is not a helpful change to any job unless it allows you to do the content without other people.

Xerius

09-22-2014, 12:40 AM

You mean like the post where you said "it wasn't enough" in reference to Drg's buff, when you had absolutely no idea what/how they were buffed? Posts like that are the one's I hope devs just ignore to be frank.

I was wrong about this and I'll admit that I was wrong about this, but throwing in a cheap jab like this in order to try to discredit me as though everything else I said is without some merit, that's just slimy and doesn't help the discussion at all. If you think the game is in a perfect state of balance you're dead wrong, if you think that the unbalance in the game is okay you're probably one of the people that doesn't have trouble getting into parties. Given how proud of your GEO and Ergon weapon you are I'd wager you're in a pretty dedicated LS and probably don't even have to worry about PUGs.

What's wrong with Thf now? What's wrong with Blm now? Both have their niches and are capable jobs. Are they omgamazing top notch DDs? No. Should they be? No. A good Thf is in that range of 60-80%ish of a good DD, that's fine IMO. Give up a lil DD for better drops, and in most content as of late (Revamped BCs, Incursion, Aluvion Skirmish) TH does indeed help. Won't even touch the utility a Blm brings, never mind that it's the best DD-ish job capable of DDing with Sam without hampering it's DPS by interrupting SCs. A good Smn is plenty capable of being of value to a party, not every party, and it's not optimal, but being of value is enough in today's content.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that BLMs can give SAMs a run for their money. BLM has its niches on content that have many mobs weak to magic, BLM isn't a DDish job it's supposed to be a DD job at least classically and it can't fulfill it's roll properly because of MP/DPS/Enmity issues. It can put out decent dps but I have no idea why you say they shouldn't be top-tier DPS. They should be the prime magic DPS in the game comparable to the best melee DD jobs because that's what they're meant to do.

Afania

09-22-2014, 02:08 AM

As for jobs not being judged based on whether they are shouted for... That actually matters. Until DRG, SMN, THF, PUP, BLM, etc. can solo all delve, AA, Skirmish, etc content it will be an issue. Being awesome at content that no one will do with you is not a helpful change to any job unless it allows you to do the content without other people.

I don't think you get my point....my point is that many jobs are actually very useful in current content, just that nobody /shout for them. Most of the time, the reason why nobody /shout for them is not because the job suck, but ppl don't know what can the job do.

Also WoE isn't "content no one would do", there are more ppl doing WoE than delve if you sea all WoE zones v.s delve zones.

Afania

09-22-2014, 02:28 AM

I was wrong about this and I'll admit that I was wrong about this, but throwing in a cheap jab like this in order to try to discredit me as though everything else I said is without some merit, that's just slimy and doesn't help the discussion at all. If you think the game is in a perfect state of balance you're dead wrong, if you think that the unbalance in the game is okay you're probably one of the people that doesn't have trouble getting into parties. Given how proud of your GEO and Ergon weapon you are I'd wager you're in a pretty dedicated LS and probably don't even have to worry about PUGs.

I don't think you get the point, nobody is saying that the game is in perfect state of balance, it's just that if you want to present your opinion about job balance, do it based on analyze each job's strength and have a logical discussion about it, don't over state the gap between each jobs just because they're not in /shout, and dismiss other job's utility and unique strength because they're not in /shout.

It is fact that SAM is often in /shout and generally the strongest DD, but other jobs weren't THAT far behind. Just a few months ago we had a discussion about certain jobs suck in FFXI because lolutility, while ppl shit on jobs like BLU because.....lolutility.

I have outparsed at least 95% of PUG 119 SAM in incursion on BLU BECAUSE of utility(yes, self buff haste2 after dispel, aoe erase attack down and slow+ harden shell actually make you parse a lot higher than what spreadsheet says)

Mind you, my BLU isn't zomg amazing, it's mediocre at best. I don't even have 119 af nor many important spell/gear, I also haven't play it for very long time.

What more can I say? Asking BLU to do same lv of dmg as SAM when it can already outparse most SAM AND help the mages with support in incursion? You'll never see BLU in /shout, but I still think it's a solid job for what it does.

Now, on to your 2nd point: "Malithar must have a good LS accepting his GEO because he has an ergon weapon!" You're just making a point that's irrelevant to this discussion by bringing up his ergon weapon and making an assumption about it.

Having an ergon weapon isn't relevant to which LS you have, since it is possible to complete it without a LS. I don't know how you get the conclusion "Malithar must have a good LS because he has an ergon weapon".

Oh and btw, I /shout for GEO for delve/incursion all the time, so does most of other /shout on my server. I don't know how ergon weapon is relevant in this discussion since ppl use it without an ergon weapon.

Secondly, although it is possible that he has a good LS so he can get a pt invite, I don't agree that you should still discuss job balance based on what's in /shout.

There will always be ppl who play with LS and go with most optimal setup, and there will always be ppl who has no LS and couldn't get invite. This game isn't LS-less players only.

If the job balance is based on ls-less players, then SE would buff certain "harder to play but still good" jobs like GEO or BLU to a point that's truly OP to get them in /shout.

So the elite LS would just use those OP jobs and clear the content faster than everyone else, resulting more job balance issue.

/shout pt will always /shout for the easiest to play jobs, instead of the best jobs. "I don't get invite on X job" certainly isn't a legit argument when we talk about job balance because that's balance based on your own experience, not as a whole.

Personally, although I know certain job isn't as bad as what others said, I don't /shout for them as well. I know if I /shout for a BLU or COR in incursion I'm gonna get someone wearing mage gears and parse low. That doesn't mean the job is bad though.