"THe Development Team Does Not Currently Have Plans Too..."

[FrankReynolds]

I don't think you get my point....my point is that many jobs are actually very useful in current content, just that nobody /shout for them. Most of the time, the reason why nobody /shout for them is not because the job suck, but ppl don't know what can the job do.

Also WoE isn't "content no one would do", there are more ppl doing WoE than delve if you sea all WoE zones v.s delve zones.

I know what your point was. But if no one wants them in their group, then it doesn't really matter how good they are. Being awesome at something that takes six people doesn't help much if you can't find 5 other people to do it with.

It's definitely a community perception problem, but it's still a problem none the less. It takes more than just being good enough. In order to break the perception, the job needs to actually excel at something important to the content.

And before anyone says "Just form your own group..."

That has never solved the problem with the greater community seeing X job as inferior and it never will.

[Bebekeke]

I know what your point was. But if no one wants them in their group, then it doesn't really matter how good they are. Being awesome at something that takes six people doesn't help much if you can't find 5 other people to do it with.

It's definitely a community perception problem, but it's still a problem none the less. It takes more than just being good enough. In order to break the perception, the job needs to actually excel at something important to the content.

And before anyone says "Just form your own group..."

That has never solved the problem with the greater community seeing X job as inferior and it never will.

Basically, the first group to complete X content posts on BG their setup, and from then on, that is the setup that everyone uses. Until someone else joins a PUG created by a person playing a job outside of that cookie cutter setup, and goes back to thye forums saying "ZOMG we just did it with this setup and completed it in half the time!" then nobody will ever shout for other jobs.

It's like RDM stunners, for example.

Delve content was always SCH stunners only.

Always.

So much so that despite the fact that it's now a few months since people have proven that RDM is actually better than SCH at stunning (since haste 2 was released, I assume) it's still very common to see shouts for SCH only.

[Malithar]

You say we can't base it on what most players do (PUGs) because not all players do it that way (Elite LSs) and I submit the exact opposite, the game shouldn't be based on the few but should be based on the average experience.

Didn't mean for my response to come off as a jab, the Drg bit just hit a nerve cause honestly, it's like "what more do you want?!" People always want buffs to their jobs, no doubt, but Drg got into a solid place with that single buff. Geo's in a great place, but I still want more. :3 I don't expect more though lol.

The Blm bit you misunderstood, I meant that Blm can DD alongside of a Sam and not hinder the Sam's DPS by interrupting their SCs (like another melee would), and DD quite well by MBing. Hate/DPS issues are handled fairly well with AM2 with a good precast set. MP is another matter, but good sources of Refresh and Aspir/Aspir II rotations worked well from what I saw. Can't get behind Blm should be just as good as the best melee though, there'd be very little reason to bring melees then. Just take a Blm army, grav, kite, nuke. Regardless of what their position should be, they have tools available that make them much more than just a magical DD.

As for the quoted, I just can't really agree. Shouts focus on the best or the "best assumed" jobs at that specific content. Whether that PUG knows what they're doing or not is up for debate, but I'd wager most aren't aware of what other jobs CAN do, or you wouldn't have moronic posters saying things like lolWar, lolBlu, etc. Most jobs in this game bring something to the table that may or may not be desirable for specific content. Whether a job works in it or not is up to the Dev team really. Cor for example in Incursion, I'd absolutely hate playing Cor in there, unless there was some solid stun support going on. But beyond what the Dev team may design the content for, it's ultimately up to the players to do said content with their job setups, pugs willing or not.

Most jobs are more than capable of doing it. It may not be optimal, but it doesn't have to be. And sometimes, to be frank, it just takes someone bringing something else out of the job that no one expected. You said you grouped with me in CP groups, would a melee Geo of ever crossed your mind as something that was effective? Good gear or otherwise (it doesn't really take THAT much to make it work, IMO), it's doable.

Blu is another good example, a good Blu can just about always amaze you when things hit the fan. Massive potency AoE grav, sleeps, stuns, heals, burst damage, etc. Or they can just be a sword swinger who occasionally hits a macro for /p <call3> CHAIN AFFINITY DARK SKILL CHAIN INC! DO NOT INTERRUPT!!! The game's a mixed bag of who you meet and how well they play their jobs. If they're playing them at the peak of the job's ability, most have a use, whether pug shouters know it or not. No amount of buffs will change that (IE, poster above mentioning Rdm/Blm stunning), unless those buffs take you so over the top that we all start saying lolSam.

[Afania]

I know what your point was. But if no one wants them in their group, then it doesn't really matter how good they are. Being awesome at something that takes six people doesn't help much if you can't find 5 other people to do it with.

It's definitely a community perception problem, but it's still a problem none the less. It takes more than just being good enough. In order to break the perception, the job needs to actually excel at something important to the content.

And before anyone says "Just form your own group..."

That has never solved the problem with the greater community seeing X job as inferior and it never will.


Most of the job excel at something, it's just not in /shout due to several many reasons that's more than job performance.

I'd want a good BLM BLU for events like incursion, but I don't /shout for them because I probably won't get any /tell, even if I doubt it's going to be well geared unless the player is BLM or BLU main, since it's not exactly worth the effort to gear up a less popular job. I don't want to /shout for some unpopular job for 2hr and get someone not geared properly.

That being said, if someone send a /tell saying "My X job has very good gear, I know what I'm doing and I can contribute in event", I would accept it.

Even you admit this isn't job issue, this is community issue. Certain job isn't popular--->nobody /shout for them------>nobody bother to send /tell and get their favorite job into the pt--->nobody gear them properly because it's not worth the effort----->even less leaders bother to /shout for them....the vicious circle continues.


Although SE can make the job actually required(which is different from "can get the job done") to do the event, like what they did to VW proc system. But personally I think VW proc system is the 2nd worst game mechanic in FFXI, second to abyssea proc system. Now that most servers avg 300~600 players on NA time, do you enjoy /shout for 2hr for an unpopular job like NIN RUN DNC just to do an event? I don't.

If jobs aren't required to do the content, every PUG would /shout for easiest PUG setup, or jobs that's the easiest to gear, regardless of the job's performance. There are no way out of this.

If jobs are required to do the content, let's /shout for 2hr for 1 single job to fill up the role.

I'd rather /shout for the easiest setup instead of /shout for 2hr in FFXI any day.

[Afania]

Of course it's relevant to base it on what's in shouts and here's why, almost everyone participates in PUG groups and many people rely solely on them however fewer people are in endgame LSs that allow them to come any job that they want. So, shouts would be a better indication of the average players experience.

And I'm not criticizing PUG groups for who they choose because you're completely right they're going to shout for jobs that make it easiest for the whole group.

As for my point about having a Ergon weapon means you have a good LS. I'm not saying he does in fact have a good LS that helped I know for a fact that he worked really hard to get his HP Bayld, we're on the same server I've personally sold him some of those HP Bayld. I've even been to Woh Gate JP party with him. But I am saying that people that are as we'll geared as his GEO is don't get there with PUGs at least not very often. You keep saying that we can't give our opinion because it's from personal experience and the you list off a bunch of personal events, like how your BLU can out parse SAMs or your personal experiences with setting up PUGs or go off on tangents. You say we can't base job balance on what people are shouting for and then start talking about how some people play in LSs.

You say we can't base it on what most players do (PUGs) because not all players do it that way (Elite LSs) and I submit the exact opposite, the game shouldn't be based on the few but should be based on the average experience.

I /shout for GEO 24/7 for incursion and often get no /tell, it's more of an issue of nobody plays GEO, instead of nobody invites GEO lol.

I'd invite a good BLM for yorcia or incursion as well, but personally I don't know anyone that plays BLM, so I may as well skip them. I don't /shout for BLM because I know I'm not getting anyone, so it's just a waste of time to even type the letter BLM lol.

If someone has a well geared BLM and GEO, but unwilling to send a /tell when a leader is making a pt /shouting for SAM MNK WHM BRD, that person has nobody to blame but himself.

I use BLU as an example to demonstrate how ppl said "lolutility, useless utility" instead of a personal experience to show how the job can get a pt invite. I'm well awared that a setup with proper stunner and support can go with SAMs going all out. Proper stun and support just isn't happening in PUG.

While I agreed that certain job can only get invite if it has good gear, while jobs like SAM MNK BRD WHM has lower gear requirement, this is more of an issue that SAM MNK is just so much easier to gear and play as a DD v.s jobs like THF, and nobody plays BRD WHM so we have to /shout for it as well.

[Xerius]

Didn't mean for my response to come off as a jab, the Drg bit just hit a nerve cause honestly, it's like "what more do you want?!" People always want buffs to their jobs, no doubt, but Drg got into a solid place with that single buff. Geo's in a great place, but I still want more. :3 I don't expect more though lol.

I apologize for my backlash as well, I was coming off of an 11 hour and and a 10 hour shift at my job so I was a tad bit cranky. Honestly, DRG isn't a job that I know a whole lot about I just recently started leveling it, I just know that historically they've had a rough time getting into parties (I honestly can't remember the last time I was in a party with a DRG).


Most jobs are more than capable of doing it. It may not be optimal, but it doesn't have to be. And sometimes, to be frank, it just takes someone bringing something else out of the job that no one expected. You said you grouped with me in CP groups, would a melee Geo of ever crossed your mind as something that was effective? Good gear or otherwise (it doesn't really take THAT much to make it work, IMO), it's doable.

I don't think that anyone doesn't agree with this I love non-standard job combos I love to go SMN/DNC and dual wield clubs with Aspir Samba on. It's not very effective but it is a hell of a lot of fun but there's a big difference between what works in exp groups and what works in end game. I generally go WHM to end game content because I'm most comfortable on that job. I showed up to a Delve run on /dnc on accident because I was leveling club beforehand and I nearly was kicked. People aren't generally willing to bring jobs that aren't well-practiced because the outcome of the event can become a little hazy and the person with the oddball combo may not even know what their role they're trying to fill.

I'd bet that a BRD/DNC can fill an amazing support/healing role for DD with a -DT set but I don't think most people are willing to try it and risk losing the event because someone wanted to come on a different setup and I can't say I blame them and this is why I think the divide between the top tier of jobs and the lower tier of jobs needs to be narrowed, not necessarily closed but closer. This extends to more than just DPS as well RDM and SCH need to be better healers, not as good as WHM but closer and COR, GEO and SMN need to be more close to BRD in terms of support, and RUN needs to be closer to PLD in terms of tanking. All of those jobs do have their niches but I don't think someone should have to level another job in order to get into end game parties.

I know it's not hard to level another job but since it's so easy to level, a lot of times you get people that have 119 jobs with only maybe 8~10 hours logged on the job. You can't really expect them to perform nearly as well as someone who's played and loved that same job for several years.

[Xerius]

If someone has a well geared BLM and GEO, but unwilling to send a /tell when a leader is making a pt /shouting for SAM MNK WHM BRD, that person has nobody to blame but himself.

I completely agree with everything you said and that is a good point but as a BLM I can attest to the fact that even if you have a well-geared BLM a lot of times they simply won't take you because your low HP and high enmity gain can make you a huge liability. As a general rule risk should equate to reward and you just don't see that with BLM. With all of our cons we have very few things that make up for it and I think that, that is a big problem.

[Afania]

I completely agree with everything you said and that is a good point but as a BLM I can attest to the fact that even if you have a well-geared BLM a lot of times they simply won't take you because your low HP and high enmity gain can make you a huge liability. As a general rule risk should equate to reward and you just don't see that with BLM. With all of our cons we have very few things that make up for it and I think that, that is a big problem.


I saw JPs /shout for a BLM for skirmish3/incursion fairly often though. Although I agree that NA community seems to /shout for it a lot less than JP....idk why! JPs PUG lv 127+ incursion fairly often and /shout for a BLM, so it can't be a bad job tbh.

[Xerius]

I saw JPs /shout for a BLM for skirmish3/incursion fairly often though. Although I agree that NA community seems to /shout for it a lot less than JP....idk why! JPs PUG lv 127+ incursion fairly often and /shout for a BLM, so it can't be a bad job tbh.

To be completely honest I haven't done any Incursion or Skirmish 3. I would guess that it's because BLM is still in a sense king of AoE damage with GEO being an extremely close second? I know in Skirmish you only really bring BLM for the mobs that are weak to magic but resistant to physical damage.

[Selindrile]

So much so that despite the fact that it's now a few months since people have proven that RDM is actually better than SCH at stunning (since haste 2 was released, I assume) it's still very common to see shouts for SCH only.

For what it's worth, I haven't seen a Sch stunner shout in ages, everyone here shouts for Rdm, second off, Sch is still better for stunning one for one because alacrity = 4s recast Rdm can only get it down to 8s, Rdm just takes one less march to do it, and can give others haste2 as well, and has dia3, so people tend to prefer that here on Fenrir.

[Mitruya]

I'd bet that a BRD/DNC can fill an amazing support/healing role for DD with a -DT set but I don't think most people are willing to try it and risk losing the event because someone wanted to come on a different setup and I can't say I blame them and this is why I think the divide between the top tier of jobs and the lower tier of jobs needs to be narrowed, not necessarily closed but closer. This extends to more than just DPS as well RDM and SCH need to be better healers, not as good as WHM but closer and COR, GEO and SMN need to be more close to BRD in terms of support, and RUN needs to be closer to PLD in terms of tanking. All of those jobs do have their niches but I don't think someone should have to level another job in order to get into end game parties.

I know it's not hard to level another job but since it's so easy to level, a lot of times you get people that have 119 jobs with only maybe 8~10 hours logged on the job. You can't really expect them to perform nearly as well as someone who's played and loved that same job for several years.

This. I leveled COR to get into Delve parties but I'm never confident on it. And every time I try to work on say RNG or GEO, I'm overwhelmed at the thought of leveling, skilling, gearing, and LEARNING the job. The thought of joining a party on something I haven't played for a good while terrifies me. Shouts are happening now, but I don't have the right jobs/gear now. What happens when I am ready? Everyone has moved on. Like I rarely see Delve shouts now, or see COR asked for much. (granted, I'm on console and can't watch shouts all day)

[Olor]

This. I leveled COR to get into Delve parties but I'm never confident on it. And every time I try to work on say RNG or GEO, I'm overwhelmed at the thought of leveling, skilling, gearing, and LEARNING the job. The thought of joining a party on something I haven't played for a good while terrifies me. Shouts are happening now, but I don't have the right jobs/gear now. What happens when I am ready? Everyone has moved on. Like I rarely see Delve shouts now, or see COR asked for much. (granted, I'm on console and can't watch shouts all day)

I feel ya. I really do. I think the people who say "just level another job" don't get that many of us don't play all the time.

[Glamdring]

Basically, the first group to complete X content posts on BG their setup, and from then on, that is the setup that everyone uses. Until someone else joins a PUG created by a person playing a job outside of that cookie cutter setup, and goes back to thye forums saying "ZOMG we just did it with this setup and completed it in half the time!" then nobody will ever shout for other jobs.

It's like RDM stunners, for example.

Delve content was always SCH stunners only.

Always.

So much so that despite the fact that it's now a few months since people have proven that RDM is actually better than SCH at stunning (since haste 2 was released, I assume) it's still very common to see shouts for SCH only.

I generally agree with you except that I've seen ALOT of new content introduced over the years first beaten with all or mostly pet jobs, it's safer, but it tends to be slow. So it's more the 1st strategy that doesn't involve throwing pets at it until you get a win that gets picked up and made into the cookie cutter. But as the pet jobs DID beat it, clearly there are other ways to go-as you suggested rdm in place of Sch is viable, other DD can clearly be subbed for some that are invited, a cor in place of a ranger actually gives both buffs AND ranged damage if you can get them to use their gun, a geo in place of a bard gives weaker buffs but increases damage output from that party slot, etc. There are usually alternatives, they just aren't as fast, and they may require the players to know what they are doing in their button-mashing but it can be done. Look at surge WoE right now, the job of choice is summoner, but I expect once people find viable alternatives that won't remain the case because it's a pet/magic job and the melee don't like that. Incidentally, mages also do quite nicely in those as well.

[Glamdring]

I feel ya. I really do. I think the people who say "just level another job" don't get that many of us don't play all the time.

or-perish the thought-LIKE their main job and don't WANT to level a job that is content-specific, especially with the time, effort and money needed to do it right.

[Mitruya]

^That, exactly. It's one thing to want to pick up a new job for kicks and giggles, but really stressful to get it endgame-ready. Especially if you're trying to rush it in order to get in on events now.

[Olor]

^That, exactly. It's one thing to want to pick up a new job for kicks and giggles, but really stressful to get it endgame-ready. Especially if you're trying to rush it in order to get in on events now.

I just can't level it fast enough let alone get gear that isn't laughable.

[Stompa]

^That, exactly. It's one thing to want to pick up a new job for kicks and giggles, but really stressful to get it endgame-ready. Especially if you're trying to rush it in order to get in on events now.

People I know who've joined FFXI and then quit within a year, are people who burned themselves out trying to get everything done at the same time, and done super fast. They really burned too hard, and that made them hate the game, and quit. If they had taken it a bit more slowly and just enjoyed the game itself, they would still be playing FFXI today and having fun with friends. But they really had to get 12 jobs 99, full geared, all missions done, and they had to do it in 6 months. Result - /breakdown - /ragequit.

I was telling them that I spent 2004 soloing BST, it took me 18 months to solo to 75 lol. And how I wandered around for the following 3 years wearing only my BST a.f. and rocking my light staff, and how those were some of the happiest days of my life, and my happiest memories of FFXI. Because I was just playing at my own pace and just enjoying Vanadiel, with all its lavish and captivating atmosphere.

[Mitruya]

Yeah, I want to take my time and enjoy the journey while learning the tricks and getting some practice. But at the same time, I'm missing out on events now because I don't have the right jobs ready.
I'm burned out on Abyssea level-burns but my RNG and GEO have a looong way to go ...

[Stompa]

I spent like 30 minutes today just admiring the cave-paintings on some of the walls in Quicksand Caves. In some of the smaller rooms are wall murals, which are incredibly beautiful. The artist who designed them really put effort into them, but most people just run past without glancing at them, because they have to get-get-get stuff and make-make-make progress all the time.

I would totally have those Quicksand Caves wall murals printed on tapestry and hung on the wall in my home, they are really great art. Just one tiny feature of Vanadiel that you will notice if you slow down and look around more, instead of just rushing around trying to complete an endless gear/job capping mousewheel run.

It saddens me that people pass through FFXI quickly and /ragequit because all they did was grind as fast as they possibly could, without ever really taking the time to admire what an amazing world Vanadiel really is.

[Ris]

I spent like 30 minutes today just admiring the cave-paintings on some of the walls in Quicksand Caves. In some of the smaller rooms are wall murals, which are incredibly beautiful. The artist who designed them really put effort into them, but most people just run past without glancing at them, because they have to get-get-get stuff and make-make-make progress all the time.

I also liked the pictures in the temple of Uggalipweioupojvwynsy. And, to get that paintbrush, the little library room with its tidbits of text.

I think, I've caught a little of what goes around with more modern MMOs. I always feel like, every time I log in, there's just tons and tons and stuff to do. Not in the good way, the under pressure way...

But then, I do realize I can just say 'eff it!' and do something silly for a while (no stupid dailies and weeklies). Especially now that XI is so solo friendly. The other side of that there's tons of stuff to do... it's nice to know I won't finish one single thing and be bored. There will be other goals I can set.

And then there's the depressing thought of... XI did this 12 years ago, what could be accomplished with today's technology? if there wasn't this obsession with streamlining and rapid content cycles and wow-like progression... .-.

[Ris]

Closer to the original topic, I think they did take the feedback from this thread. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/44456-Please-SE-lower-the-sparks-requirements-for-Rem-Chapters-1-5?p=526298#post526298) Even though it's a "no" Camate outlined the dev team's reasoning.