Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

[Olor]

Since the developers appear to be allergic to the idea of boosting the power of other "DDs" like Beastmaster, Dragoon, Thief, Blue Mage and Black Mage - perhaps they will consider nerfing monk and Samurai?

Because, frankly, if my crummy pet that can barely hit the side of a barn is overpowered, DDs that can crap out massive weaponskills over and over are REALLY overpowered.

If something isn't done DDs other than Ranger, SAM and MNK will never be invited to real content, and frankly, that's boring.

I didn't ask for Ranger to be nerfed because now is the first time I've seen them be used in years.

Please consider. Thanks.

(Or you could, you know, boost the power of other jobs, but since you have a very warped idea of what will help them/think they are more powerful than they are/hate them, we know that will never happen - you didn't even give Dragoon and BST and PUP the max HP boost! Cause, you know, that would be overpowered!)

[Balloon]

Rangers are the most broken job in the game at the minute. That's not really even talking about rangers, though, that's an enmity issue.

Let's not nerf, let's just actually get some balance in there. I remember when every other word was balance.

[Mitruya]

A thousand likes. I'm really having to restrain myself not to start a very bitter rant thread.

[Draylo]

SE will never nerf SAM, it is their baby job.

[Malthar]

They seem to love blue mages too, but they have no love for the furry.

[Balloon]

Blue mage spent a large amount of time in the toilet too, and please don't refer to pet jobs as furries...

[Afania]

Since the developers appear to be allergic to the idea of boosting the power of other "DDs" like Beastmaster, Dragoon, Thief, Blue Mage and Black Mage - perhaps they will consider nerfing monk and Samurai?

Because, frankly, if my crummy pet that can barely hit the side of a barn is overpowered, DDs that can crap out massive weaponskills over and over are REALLY overpowered.

If something isn't done DDs other than Ranger, SAM and MNK will never be invited to real content, and frankly, that's boring.

I didn't ask for Ranger to be nerfed because now is the first time I've seen them be used in years.

Please consider. Thanks.

(Or you could, you know, boost the power of other jobs, but since you have a very warped idea of what will help them/think they are more powerful than they are/hate them, we know that will never happen - you didn't even give Dragoon and BST and PUP the max HP boost! Cause, you know, that would be overpowered!)


Oh great, DD QQ thread here it goes!

Seriously though, BLM isn't THAT bad after last skillchain dmg boost update, since BLM's output doesn't interrupt skill chains. It's also often used by JP in skirmish 3. Ppl doesn't /shout for BLM, because it's hard to find one to perform properly to be useful to begin with.

I don't think MNK need a nerf after recent HP boost for many jobs. It's biggest advantage is kinda gone. BLU just got a pretty big boost so I'm happy with that, and THF is still being used here and there for TH, if played properly it's not a bad DD for the utility it provides IMO.

IMO, the only DD job that needs a boost is jobs that can only perform as a DD, but unable to outparse SAM.

[Zarchery]

You are implicitly telling other players how to run their events. Go pound sand. If you want to bring your Beastmaster to something, run your own event. I have Monk and Samurai, but I usually don't use them unless I'm running the event. It's usually WHM or BRD or BLM.

Either level the desired job to get invites without dealing with the stresses of running events, or level the job you want and deal with the stress. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Balloon]

I'm a huge advocate for buffs for pet jobs, and some of the other jobs, but the answer isn't to aim hate at other jobs. Tell them to fix things, not destroy things.

I absolutely disagree with the notion that jobs that 'can do other things' shouldn't be buffed to be competitive in other areas, though. The game doesn't revolve around those other things anymore.

[mattkoko]

You are implicitly telling other players how to run their events. Go pound sand. If you want to bring your Beastmaster to something, run your own event. I have Monk and Samurai, but I usually don't use them unless I'm running the event. It's usually WHM or BRD or BLM.

Either level the desired job to get invites without dealing with the stresses of running events, or level the job you want and deal with the stress. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You are missing the point entirely. You should be allowed to play the job you want to play. The players that love the job mnk and sam are allowed to have their cake and eat it. People that love other jobs should be allowed the same. I am so tired of the argument, "oh just level another job." That is not the point.

[Rubicant82]

As long as there is a Tank, and Healer, the other 4 jobs in the party should not matter and SHOULD be able to perform and clear content intended for parties of that size.
If there is a new inclination of the DEV team to balance things out then it should be there goal to see all jobs included in end game content.

However, I feel that much of this is fueled by what people have found to be the optimal build for beating content. Once it is beat, then beaten easily, that is what everyone wants to do. What is the easy way out? Oh it is sending in MNK, RNG, SAM to pummel the S**T out of the monster before it gets of the mega move that can/will end the run as a failure. This is a most unfortunate thing, but it is a thing none the less. I always try to have a job ready that I have to play in order to the latest content, though I true love is BLM and I never get to go anywhere on that unless it is old content (sad fact) so I would love to see changes but no nerfs. Buffing up the other DD classes so they can be on the same level of the cookie cutter DD flavor of the time.

[Pixela]

People always complain about job balance, since the beginning of the game.

Square always boost and nerf jobs to make people level and gear different things, bandwagon is the key to long-term play. Bandwagon job couple of years ago was bst cause they could solo almost anything, bandwagon job has changed so many times over the years and it will change again.

Sam hasn't always been THE job to have for anything, it used to be weak before the 2h update and the only reason you would want a sam is to set up a skillchain for the powerful black mages to kill stuff faster.

Monk used to be a loljob too, I remember sitting on the side boosting to 12 to do a chi blast. The only thing monk used to be good for was farming pop items. The ultimate kick in the teeth was monk was the job nobody wanted yet it was the job that was the hardest to gear.

[Stompa]

Rangers are the most broken job in the game at the minute. That's not really even talking about rangers, though, that's an enmity issue.

Let's not nerf, let's just actually get some balance in there. I remember when every other word was balance.

I was on WHM in most alliance/event runs for a decade, and while I was watching the tank and frontliners of course, I actually kept my eye locked on the Rng, because their HP would suddenly plunge radically like a luge racer. In those long resting-MP times I would often wonder about Ranger. They have the same base evasion skill as WHM, rank E, and this always struck me as odd because Rangers are hunters - they are fit, lithe and agile from tracking in the wilderness. So they are closer to THF than most jobs in a lore sense, as they are agile, fit, stealthy and swift - if you are not those things you cannot be a hunter. So I always felt RNG should have had a base evasion skill inbetween WAR and THF, not in the lower mage categories. Obviously with statvom, the balance is redressed somewhat. But I still think Ranger should have a high evasion skill, good enmity-down abilities / armors, etc. to compensate from the fact they have huge damage output but lack the heavy armor & DT gear of tanks. I remember every time our Ranger used Jishnu's the mob would suddenly lock onto him and not give up and all us mages were curebombing him literally till we ran out of mp lol. And he'd be rocking that light armor and evasion rank E as the NM raged on him. I think your word "broken" is a good one.

[Balloon]

I was on WHM in most alliance/event runs for a decade, and while I was watching the tank and frontliners of course, I actually kept my eye locked on the Rng, because their HP would suddenly plunge radically like a luge racer. In those long resting-MP times I would often wonder about Ranger. They have the same base evasion skill as WHM, rank E, and this always struck me as odd because Rangers are hunters - they are fit, lithe and agile from tracking in the wilderness. So they are closer to THF than most jobs in a lore sense, as they are agile, fit, stealthy and swift - if you are not those things you cannot be a hunter. So I always felt RNG should have had a base evasion skill inbetween WAR and THF, not in the lower mage categories. Obviously with statvom, the balance is redressed somewhat. But I still think Ranger should have a high evasion skill, good enmity-down abilities / armors, etc. to compensate from the fact they have huge damage output but lack the heavy armor & DT gear of tanks. I remember every time our Ranger used Jishnu's the mob would suddenly lock onto him and not give up and all us mages were curebombing him literally till we ran out of mp lol. And he'd be rocking that light armor and evasion rank E as the NM raged on him. I think your word "broken" is a good one.

I was more referring to the enmity that their relic weaponskills generate, or lack there of. Tanking is only viable when rangers are part of the picture, they have Decoy shot too. In situations where tanking is imperative, there's very little options other than RNG.

[WoW]

People always complain about job balance, since the beginning of the game.

Square always boost and nerf jobs to make people level and gear different things, bandwagon is the key to long-term play. Bandwagon job couple of years ago was bst cause they could solo almost anything, bandwagon job has changed so many times over the years and it will change again.

Sam hasn't always been THE job to have for anything, it used to be weak before the 2h update and the only reason you would want a sam is to set up a skillchain for the powerful black mages to kill stuff faster.

Monk used to be a loljob too, I remember sitting on the side boosting to 12 to do a chi blast. The only thing monk used to be good for was farming pop items. The ultimate kick in the teeth was monk was the job nobody wanted yet it was the job that was the hardest to gear.

Ppl bandwagon bst during the dyna era, but that was on dated content. Bst could hold multiple mobs, but other jobs could do dyna without breaking a sweat. It was never a true badwagon job, as it pertains to efficacy in endgame. Bst were not used in sky (Rngs could widescan), nor in ToA salvage era, or shouted for during the abyssea era, and currently, it is not useful in delve.

Bst were never stronger than any bandwagon job. Bst was never on the level of a sam, rng, or mnk; never. Alot of ppl play badwagon jobs, because they are the strongest thing out; a ton of ppl play bst, but not for any particular reason, other than liking it, they just play/played it; huge difference. I never recall bst being shouted for endgame; this is what ppl are referring to, not the amount of ppl playing it.

[Raydeus]

You are missing the point entirely. You should be allowed to play the job you want to play. The players that love the job mnk and sam are allowed to have their cake and eat it. People that love other jobs should be allowed the same. I am so tired of the argument, "oh just level another job." That is not the point.

I think his point is geared more towards the question of whom exactly isn't allowing you to play the job you love. And the answer is always "the other players". So unless SE makes other jobs OP enough to change the meta of the game so people uses other jobs (eventually leading to leaving most jobs but the most OP in end game again) there isn't much they can do about it.

This has always happened and it has always been a community problem rather than a balance one.

Most players simply lack the skill and will to think about different ways of doing things, so they will just sheeply follow the strategy a few groups develop around X,Y and Z jobs/roles. Even if there are jobs that can work just as good of better if you adjust your strategy accordingly they will willingly ignore them unless they mean players can put even less effort into developing a strategy.

You can see proof of that in the way zerg "strategies" took over, since they were easier to use with a PUG (zero coordination required) while also providing big damage numbers and results (aka wins.) Did that mean players couldn't defeat the content in any other way? No, it just meant all shouts would be focused on the current flavor of the month strategy.

And since most jobs would not fit into that they would be left out, which then translated into rage and inferiority complex. But I digress.

My original point was that as Zarchery said, if you want to do things differently with the job you love then organize things yourself. And if you don't want to then level the current job flavor of the month, because no matter how many jobs get nerfed new ones will always take their place in the meta, and if you don't have some different jobs leveled chances are you will be left out of the bandwagon almost every time.

[WoW]

I think his point is geared more towards the question of whom exactly isn't allowing you to play the job you love. And the answer is always "the other players". So unless SE makes other jobs OP enough to change the meta of the game so people uses other jobs (eventually leading to leaving most jobs but the most OP in end game again) there isn't much they can do about it.

This has always happened and it has always been a community problem rather than a balance one.

Most players simply lack the skill and will to think about different ways of doing things, so they will just sheeply follow the strategy a few groups develop around X,Y and Z jobs/roles. Even if there are jobs that can work just as good of better if you adjust your strategy accordingly they will willingly ignore them unless they mean players can put even less effort into developing a strategy.

You can see proof of that in the way zerg "strategies" took over, since they were easier to use with a PUG (zero coordination required) while also providing big damage numbers and results (aka wins.) Did that mean players couldn't defeat the content in any other way? No, it just meant all shouts would be focused on the current flavor of the month strategy.

And since most jobs would not fit into that they would be left out, which then translated into rage and inferiority complex. But I digress.

My original point was that as Zarchery said, if you want to do things differently with the job you love then organize things yourself. And if you don't want to then level the current job flavor of the month, because no matter how many jobs get nerfed new ones will always take their place in the meta, and if you don't have some different jobs leveled chances are you will be left out of the bandwagon almost every time.

SE basically admitted that sam was overpowered, which is why they are updating other jobs http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/41383-Solo-Accomplishments-Party-Barriers-and-Enhancing-the-Community?p=513076&viewfull=1#post513076

I also disagree with the notion that this is a player problem as opposed to a balance issue when SE basically admitted this in the aforementioned link. Although players tend to use the easiest strategy, I agree with that. However, Bst is not out-dding a sam nor rng. That is a balance problem. Pets are stripped down/experience accuracy issues on difficult battles and the master is essentially a one-handed dd. Not sure the pt would clear lvl128 delve by swapping out sam for bst. I mean, replace rng and sams with bst; yikes. If it can be done, I am wit it^^ Perhaps it will open the eyes of the community, but i seriously doubt it....

[Afania]

I'm a huge advocate for buffs for pet jobs, and some of the other jobs, but the answer isn't to aim hate at other jobs. Tell them to fix things, not destroy things.

I absolutely disagree with the notion that jobs that 'can do other things' shouldn't be buffed to be competitive in other areas, though. The game doesn't revolve around those other things anymore.


Nerfing jobs is a much better way to balance. Because if you buff weaker jobs, you'd have to buff the game content as well as the game difficulty will become too easy if every job get a buff.

For example, recent SAM buff happened because XI became MNK fantasy XI, they happened to make delve2(especially yorcia)became too easy. If they just nerf MNK instead of buffing SAM it wouldn't have happen.

Also in a game with 22 jobs, job change system and simplistic battle system, I'm not sure if it's important to make all 22 job equally useful in raid while making them different.

[Stompa]

I was more referring to the enmity that their relic weaponskills generate, or lack there of. Tanking is only viable when rangers are part of the picture, they have Decoy shot too. In situations where tanking is imperative, there's very little options other than RNG.


Ah OK. I don't play ranger at all, my experience with it was just as a WHM. My memories of Aby are basically ; RNG uses Jishnu's Radiance, the NM races across the ground like its on rollerskates, the Ranger's HP drops like a dead bird, me and the other mages spam cures on him for a long time, and the NM hits him for enormous damage. I remember wishing he had higher evasion skill rank and heavier armor or something lol. But we probably didn't have the right strategy for RNG party or something. Our LS is mostly mage and pet jobs so idk much about RNG except trying to keep them alive lol.

[Afania]

As long as there is a Tank, and Healer, the other 4 jobs in the party should not matter and SHOULD be able to perform and clear content intended for parties of that size.
If there is a new inclination of the DEV team to balance things out then it should be there goal to see all jobs included in end game content.

However, I feel that much of this is fueled by what people have found to be the optimal build for beating content. Once it is beat, then beaten easily, that is what everyone wants to do. What is the easy way out? Oh it is sending in MNK, RNG, SAM to pummel the S**T out of the monster before it gets of the mega move that can/will end the run as a failure. This is a most unfortunate thing, but it is a thing none the less. I always try to have a job ready that I have to play in order to the latest content, though I true love is BLM and I never get to go anywhere on that unless it is old content (sad fact) so I would love to see changes but no nerfs. Buffing up the other DD classes so they can be on the same level of the cookie cutter DD flavor of the time.

Except you CAN clear the content with jobs from OP. You CAN clear zones like yorcia on THF, BLU, BLM and BST. The point isn't X job can't clear the content, but X job can't outparse SAM.

According to some ppl using BLM in pt, using a BLM in yorcia actually adds more dmg than using one extra SAM due to skillchain interruption. Not sure why you don't get invite, if I can find one I'd use it.

[Balloon]

Except you CAN clear the content with jobs from OP. You CAN clear zones like yorcia on THF, BLU, BLM and BST. The point isn't X job can't clear the content, but X job can't outparse SAM.

According to some ppl using BLM in pt, using a BLM in yorcia actually adds more dmg than using one extra SAM due to skillchain interruption. Not sure why you don't get invite, if I can find one I'd use it.

I think being able to clear something isn't really what people are talking about. It's the added risk, the added need for perfection throughout, the need for better gear. Yes it's possible to clear, but there's a disparity in difficulty when using those other jobs. I'm guilty of this, if someone said they were setting up a Yorica run with a THF PUP BST BRD WHM COR, or whatever you'd go with, I just wouldn't go. There's such a high chance of failure.

So if I answer a shout saying I don't have SAM, but I have THF, I'm not getting in. If I shout for a Yorica run and go on THF and take lesser jobs, people won't join.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea to. People want it to be less laughable an idea.

[Catmato]

You are missing the point entirely. You should be allowed to play the job you want to play. The players that love the job mnk and sam are allowed to have their cake and eat it. People that love other jobs should be allowed the same. I am so tired of the argument, "oh just level another job." That is not the point.

Every job doesn't have to be relevant for every event. That's why we can level multiple jobs on a single character.

[detlef]

Every job doesn't have to be relevant for every event. That's why we can level multiple jobs on a single character.Even though this is true and something I've argued in the past, it's also true that right now SAM is much more powerful than it really should be right now.

[WoW]

I think being able to clear something isn't really what people are talking about. It's the added risk, the added need for perfection throughout, the need for better gear. Yes it's possible to clear, but there's a disparity in difficulty when using those other jobs. I'm guilty of this, if someone said they were setting up a Yorica run with a THF PUP BST BRD WHM COR, or whatever you'd go with, I just wouldn't go. There's such a high chance of failure.

So if I answer a shout saying I don't have SAM, but I have THF, I'm not getting in. If I shout for a Yorica run and go on THF and take lesser jobs, people won't join.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea to. People want it to be less laughable an idea.

Basically this.

[WoW]

In my humble opinion, sams are not to blame. They are the coach's son; not his fault the coach neglects everyone else, blame SE for updating sam and not every other job. If other classes were updated during that ws buff, this would be a non-issue. For instance, pet ws/acc, blu spells, and a balanced ws buff; some jobs were upgraded, some were not. If they were not aware of this ahead of time, that is troubling; do you guys test?

Also, it should not take months to make other jobs serviceable; not everyone is a rng or sam. Only took one update to break sam, I mean damn; do another to break everyone else; then it is even stevens.

I mean, by examining sam, balance is a non-issue.

[Zarchery]

You are missing the point entirely. You should be allowed to play the job you want to play. The players that love the job mnk and sam are allowed to have their cake and eat it. People that love other jobs should be allowed the same. I am so tired of the argument, "oh just level another job." That is not the point.

So what jobs do you bring when you run events?

[Zarchery]

Water finds its own level. What I mean by this is that some jobs will always emerge as the most popular and desired jobs for an event. If they weakened MNK and SAM to appease a bunch of petty and jealous people running other damage dealer classes, all that would happen is something else would take their place as to go-to popular job for events. Square-Enix can't fix human attitude.

I think it's the difficulty of some of the content that drives this. I find that with the high tier mission battlefields, there's a much greater pressure to use very rigid set ups on Difficult and Very Difficult. The fights are harder, the moves are deadlier, and there's less room for error. And you know what's funny? Most of the time these lose anyway because the team doesn't know each other or work well together at all.

And I know a pretty good Dragoon and Dark Knight I'll take on events because I know them and know they're good. So you have a few choices:

1) Level a popular job to get into pickup groups.
2) Do easier content. You don't have to run every stupid mission battlefield on Difficult.
3) Level the job you want and make your own parties.
4) Level the job you want and establish relationships with other players.
5) Do none of this and throw jealous fits about how overpowered everything is and demand it be weakened on the magical hope this will make you popular.

[Afania]

I think being able to clear something isn't really what people are talking about. It's the added risk, the added need for perfection throughout, the need for better gear. Yes it's possible to clear, but there's a disparity in difficulty when using those other jobs. I'm guilty of this, if someone said they were setting up a Yorica run with a THF PUP BST BRD WHM COR, or whatever you'd go with, I just wouldn't go. There's such a high chance of failure.

So if I answer a shout saying I don't have SAM, but I have THF, I'm not getting in. If I shout for a Yorica run and go on THF and take lesser jobs, people won't join.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea to. People want it to be less laughable an idea.

THF can't do yorcia is more because of piercing dmg resist and less about the actual job performance. I've seen ppl /shout for a THF for ceizak for multiple times. Back in 2013 when delve1 was 18 man, my LS also used THF as one of the DD.

I agree that the gap between SAM and other DD is pretty big atm, especially for a job like SAM with ranged dmg access, it shouldn't be THAT strong. But IMO, asking EVERY job to have equal performance in same content with 22 jobs in game, is just as unrealistic. You either have to make all 22 job identical or simplify the gameplay mechanics. Some praised the job balance in FFXIV, but that's only because DPS is only DPS and there are no real hybrid in that game, the only difference between them is ranged dmg, attack range and DoT. FFXI is a lot more complicated to do that, it'd also be incredibly boring if half of all 22 jobs are DPS with equal dmg and utility.

I mean, if THF has the same output as SAM, why bother to play SAM anymore when we only need to gear THF, which gives equal output as SAM and you can farm dyna with it. But if THF has less output than SAM because of access to TH, then there's no point to use THF over SAM in event if you don't need TH, ever.

The better "fix" for the job is to increase content diversity, so every job get a use in certain event/setup/situation, instead of asking every job to have equal performance.

[Afania]

Water finds its own level. What I mean by this is that some jobs will always emerge as the most popular and desired jobs for an event. If they weakened MNK and SAM to appease a bunch of petty and jealous people running other damage dealer classes, all that would happen is something else would take their place as to go-to popular job for events. Square-Enix can't fix human attitude.

I think it's the difficulty of some of the content that drives this. I find that with the high tier mission battlefields, there's a much greater pressure to use very rigid set ups on Difficult and Very Difficult. The fights are harder, the moves are deadlier, and there's less room for error. And you know what's funny? Most of the time these lose anyway because the team doesn't know each other or work well together at all.

And I know a pretty good Dragoon and Dark Knight I'll take on events because I know them and know they're good. So you have a few choices:

1) Level a popular job to get into pickup groups.
2) Do easier content. You don't have to run every stupid mission battlefield on Difficult.
3) Level the job you want and make your own parties.
4) Level the job you want and establish relationships with other players.
5) Do none of this and throw jealous fits about how overpowered everything is and demand it be weakened on the magical hope this will make you popular.


Except the job mentioned by the OP can clear Difficult just fine, some even demand THF just for TH.

IMO, SAM needs a slight nerf because it's certainly too OP atm, MNK is fine and jobs mentioned by OP are mostly fine. SE created the job BST as a solo job in mind, why QQ about BST not getting pt invite? You should QQ about SE not creating more content that's hard to solo and benefits BST, instead of trying to get BST into parties.

[Balloon]

Because that's a whole heap of nonsense, the game has never really been like that at all. What did BST solo other than 1-75 and a few, select nms? The game has always been tiered like that, and all I want is for some of those tier lists to be changed. I don't actually think THF should surpass sam, but it's not even close, and the benefits of th don't fix that. Jobs should be closer to each other, not equal.

Jobs should be able to participate in all content, and it should be effective. It's not effective to do a Marjami run without a group of rangers, what I want it a situation where, because you've shouted for an hour already, someone goes "Well we might as well shout for x" not "Oh we might as well stop shouting."

Using the 75 model now is so baffling to me, it's not the same game, and some of the jobs should be reflected to change that. Because it's a waste of dev time to create solo content that won't give good rewards.

[Afania]

Because that's a whole heap of nonsense, the game has never really been like that at all. What did BST solo other than 1-75 and a few, select nms? The game has always been tiered like that, and all I want is for some of those tier lists to be changed. I don't actually think THF should surpass sam, but it's not even close, and the benefits of th don't fix that. Jobs should be closer to each other, not equal.

Jobs should be able to participate in all content, and it should be effective. It's not effective to do a Marjami run without a group of rangers, what I want it a situation where, because you've shouted for an hour already, someone goes "Well we might as well shout for x" not "Oh we might as well stop shouting."

Using the 75 model now is so baffling to me, it's not the same game, and some of the jobs should be reflected to change that. Because it's a waste of dev time to create solo content that won't give good rewards.

All I can say is I don't agree with you, but it seems that I have a very different POV toward FFXI. I don't view FFXI as a "raid based MMO" that the entire game is designed and balanced based on endgame raid and the sole purpose of playing the game is to do raid and get gear. ARR was like that and I hated it. I view it more like a virtual world where ppl just live in the game, and raid/endgame being one of many things you do in game. IMO, solo dyna, salvage, solo PW for gil, do AA BC is also part of the game and this game isn't delve only.

There are plenty of solo content that give good rewards. You build R/M/E with dyna/salvage, you can solo PW and sell scoria for gil, not every job can do that. Those are all part of the game IMO. This game shouldn't be 6 man content only.

In ARR, they removed elemental dmg resistance so every DD has equal performance in instance content. If you want that kind of game may as well play ARR. But FFXI is never a game like that, it's designed in a way that some job has better performance in certain situation and you NEED to job change if you're in different situation. If you can't find a situation that your job can shine, you should ask the dev to create the situation that your job shines, instead of asking the dev to change the job so they're all the same.

[Balloon]

I just don't agree that we should be excluded from newer, more relevant content.

I can solo Salv well on pup, but I can also do it in a 117 mnk. I can solo dynamis on pup but I'd do it on thf. I can solo some skirmish but everyone has trusts now. I'm pretty sure I just can't solo PW.

Being slightly better at content that anyone can do is not justification for being excluded in most other, newer, more relevant content that gives better rewards.

I'm not saying that any of these jobs should be functionally better than a SAM, but I mean.. it should be a lot closer. And I actually do just agree that RNG enmity needs a nerf, or more accurately, the enmity system needs a rework so that tanking isn't only viable with RNGs.

We've seen a shift towards this already, BLU got a pretty nice buff that actually identifies one of the main problems with the job. I hope to see this addressed for other jobs in the future.

I don't play dancer, but it's not hard to see that it can't perform it's main task anymore, so a shift towards more DD play wouldn't be broken (In a landscape where whm realistically never falls below 800mp.) I play puppetmaster, and it's so damn depressing actually trying to DO stuff with it, even if my automaton performed above 5% of the parties dps, it wouldn't live long enough to do anything.

Yes, it can do other things, and while I personally disagree with the conclusion that this should make them weaker I do believe that the fact it performs not even half as good as a SAM is indicative of a need for a buff.

Closer, not equal, moving towards something more balanced like they're trying to do with buff jobs.

[Afania]

I just don't agree that we should be excluded from newer, more relevant content.

I can solo Salv well on pup, but I can also do it in a 117 mnk. I can solo dynamis on pup but I'd do it on thf. I can solo some skirmish but everyone has trusts now. I'm pretty sure I just can't solo PW.

Being slightly better at content that anyone can do is not justification for being excluded in most other, newer, more relevant content that gives better rewards.

I wouldn't say salv is a good example cuz TH doesn't really shine there. But it does make a difference in dyna.

THF being "slightly better" in dyna is the same as MNK being "slightly" better in delve. The only job that's WAY better is SAM. THF's output really isn't bad in delve1, especially ceizak. My friend's THF has no issue outparsing most MNK in morimar, let alone ceizak. THF isn't excluded from newer BC as well, honestly PUP and BST is in worse position than THF atm.

IMO, the right way to solve the issue is to create more content for pet jobs to shine, instead of fixing pet jobs and make them exactly the same as SAM.

[Afania]

I just don't agree that we should be excluded from newer, more relevant content.

I can solo Salv well on pup, but I can also do it in a 117 mnk. I can solo dynamis on pup but I'd do it on thf. I can solo some skirmish but everyone has trusts now. I'm pretty sure I just can't solo PW.

Being slightly better at content that anyone can do is not justification for being excluded in most other, newer, more relevant content that gives better rewards.

I'm not saying that any of these jobs should be functionally better than a SAM, but I mean.. it should be a lot closer. And I actually do just agree that RNG enmity needs a nerf, or more accurately, the enmity system needs a rework so that tanking isn't only viable with RNGs.

We've seen a shift towards this already, BLU got a pretty nice buff that actually identifies one of the main problems with the job. I hope to see this addressed for other jobs in the future.

I don't play dancer, but it's not hard to see that it can't perform it's main task anymore, so a shift towards more DD play wouldn't be broken (In a landscape where whm realistically never falls below 800mp.) I play puppetmaster, and it's so damn depressing actually trying to DO stuff with it, even if my automaton performed above 5% of the parties dps, it wouldn't live long enough to do anything.

Yes, it can do other things, and while I personally disagree with the conclusion that this should make them weaker I do believe that the fact it performs not even half as good as a SAM is indicative of a need for a buff.

Closer, not equal, moving towards something more balanced like they're trying to do with buff jobs.


What's the point to make it "closer" anyways. Ppl still gonna shoot for the most efficient(DD that parse top) setup no matter what. IMO it's not a good way to balance job at all.

I think pet jobs need a fix, but making them the same as SAM isn't right direction to fix it. IMO DD jobs that's in the same class as SAM, like WAR DRG DRK needs a dmg boost, while pet jobs needs another advantage DD job does not have.

[Balloon]

I wouldn't say salv is a good example cuz TH doesn't really shine there. But it does make a difference in dyna.

THF being "slightly better" in dyna is the same as MNK being "slightly" better in delve. The only job that's WAY better is SAM. THF's output really isn't bad in delve1, especially ceizak. My friend's THF has no issue outparsing most MNK in morimar, let alone ceizak. THF isn't excluded from newer BC as well, honestly PUP and BST is in worse position than THF atm.

IMO, the right way to solve the issue is to create more content for pet jobs to shine, instead of fixing pet jobs and make them exactly the same as SAM.

Because I can't say to my friends let me go pup/bst/whatever to AA Difficult because even they don't think it's a good idea. If I shouted and went pup, people would leave. Having them closer allows me to set stuff up, even if it wouldn't change shouts.

People seem to think MNK is more damaging than it is, that was never the reason it was taken. I don't even see mnk go to most stuff now..

Again, who wants them to be the same as SAM? Not I. I want the idea of taking a pup over a sam when there's no sams available to be something that isn't hilarious. It doesn't even perform at 50% of SAMs output. I both agree and disagree with the idea of creating content where one job is clearly better, agree because sure, it makes sense. Disagree because it does nothing to solve the wider problem of inequity between jobs. If all jobs were at a baseline, and then shone brighter in one or two pieces of content, great, but having 1 BC where you need a PUP or BST? That still has other jobs performing much better in 90% of the other content.

Salvage and Dynamis isn't relevant content, it's content aimed at pre-ilvl. It'd take maybe 10-15more minutes for me to do Salvage on an ilvl dd/dnc over these 'solo jobs' - It's not the same. Hell, I go to Dynamis on a thf I built from gear for MNK/COR, with Daggers I got for COR (and delve lucky drop.)

[Balloon]

And I want to make it clear again, I heavily disagree with the notion of nerfing jobs. I think OP is being incredibly overzealous with that.
Fixes, not nerf. I don't even want the priority to be placed on pet jobs, I'd rather see a overhaul of the enmity system and removal of JA delay. That actually is an indirect buff for DNC, PUP and perhaps RUN.

[Rubicant82]

.-.
do I see a lot a mud slinging and I can't catch it all but here is the haps chaps:

NERF is not the answer - As mentioned PEOPLE (Both players & Devs) are allergic to change.
Sure you can level jobs (I have 6 now I rotate through just so I can do end game) but that shouldn't HAVE to be the case. The DDs should not be different from one another by the end of the battle, accept for the difference given to them by gear etc. I.E all things equal DD = DD = DD = DD, that is balance, right now that is not the case.
The idea to a lot of people that they are not able to play their favorite job is a "put off" and they are likely to stop playing. Now that may not seem like that big of a deal but most people have at least 1 mule so there goes $17 out the window. Now multiply that by 100 or even 500 over course of time and you are looking at substantial lose in revenue for the company each month. It would be in the best interests of the GAME and the profit for SE to make it so that all 22 jobs can be relevant in all content. Enabling players to come up with even more divers strategies. The thought that every season has a bandwagon job to promote longevity is a laugh, you lose players by making what they WANT to do useless or shunned. I've seen the bandwagons come and go sense NA release, I'm sure the cycle will continue as apparently SE has not learned proper business strategies yet. We are but a few voices of thousands, and something I have learned over the years with dealing with big corporations, the squeaky wheel sadly does get the grease.

[Balloon]

I don't think it's mud slinging. Me and Afania have a difference of opinion, but I certainly see her point, we just have different ways of viewing how the game should be played.

[Sasaraixx]

Seriously though, BLM isn't THAT bad after last skillchain dmg boost update, since BLM's output doesn't interrupt skill chains. It's also often used by JP in skirmish 3. Ppl doesn't /shout for BLM, because it's hard to find one to perform properly to be useful to begin with.

I can't tell if you are being serious or are trolling.

The only reason BLM is shouted for in skirmish is to ga/ja fodder mobs.

And if your reason for not wanting to bring another SAM to delve is because they can't wait 1 second to weapon skill, then there are bigger issues with that group.

The dev team has basically acknowledged that elemental magic is lacking after the weapon skill update. That is why they are going to adjust tier V nukes. You can't seriously tell me that BLM isn't among the dd jobs that need a boost. Even in delves like kahmir that require magic damage , you're probably better of using an elemental weapon skill.

People don't shout for BLM because there is usually a better alternative out there, not because you can't find a properly geared one.

I don't think they should nerf SAM or MNK, but they need to look at the other jobs. I agree that we can't expect every job to be useful for every event, but there are a handful of jobs that are absolutely the best choices for most content and a few that are never sought after. That is not balanced.

And I'm sorry but farming currency in dynamis does NOT count.

[Olor]

And I want to make it clear again, I heavily disagree with the notion of nerfing jobs. I think OP is being incredibly overzealous with that.
Fixes, not nerf. I don't even want the priority to be placed on pet jobs, I'd rather see a overhaul of the enmity system and removal of JA delay. That actually is an indirect buff for DNC, PUP and perhaps RUN.

I want to make it clear, what I really want is for jobs like BST, THF, DRG, BLM, PUP etc to be buffed. Unfortunately, the developers are NOT WILLING to buff these jobs properly. I mean, us BSTs have asked repeatedly - please give us stronger pets (answer "those pets are too scary) - to uncap all our jugs (answer: sorry no, you need to wait after every update for months to even keep up to the crappy performance you used to have), to make BST affinity add levels OVER our weapon ilevel (silence)

I mean their only "solutions" so far is to give us some incredibly difficult to craft HQ jugs (which are not at all stronger, just have a bit more HP and cost a fortune) and some pet food that still leaves our pets whiffing on all the things. They promised to stop taking away stats from the master on gear to give them to pets (making us choose between which part of the team is gimped) - and immediately broke that promise by bringing in a new skirmish axe that has NO pet stats on it - meaning we have to choose - buff our selves or our pets. No good pet gear has been added. PUP and BST did not get HP boost trait. BST is still a 1-handed DD with zero offensive JAs.

I'm sorry but if the devs are not willing to buff these jobs the only answer is to nerf other jobs. It's simply unbelievable that a couple DDs are given superpowers and other DDs are told to go pound sand.

As for the "level another job" crowd - I go to all events on BRD. ALL. I never get to play my other jobs in groups because they are useless in current content. That's stupid. Every job needs to have a place in at least 50% of endgame. It's ok for a couple of events to favour one job or another - but it's just not reasonable if most jobs can't participate in most content.

I mean, people say "THF has TH" but almost no events NEED treasure hunter anymore. Delve? Lots of drops without TH thanks. Skirmish? Doesn't increase the number of drops one bit. Sorry what current content favours TH?

[Mitruya]

I think we are all looking in basically the same direction though - seeing a game of 22 jobs where a variety of set-ups can achieve the same results. Content needs to be balanced better so that it doesn't shun certain jobs. JA delay needs to be addressed. DRG's lacking attack power needs to be addressed. Pet accuracy, damage, and survival needs to be addressed. Magic damage needs to be addressed. And anything else I've left out.
We've all perhaps experienced shouts that went on forever and fell apart, or events that were cancelled despite having 18 ppl+ online and ready to go. I'd rather play and fail than go afk from boredom. I'd also like to have the choice to play on different jobs, not be forced into one role in order to gear other jobs that don't get to do squat.
It's one thing to say, okay so-and-so piercing job doesn't work here in this one zone but in others it's welcome. It's another to say, anything not RNG/SAM/PLD can't enter multiple endgame events and should just shut up and go solo Dynamis and be happy.
Balloon makes a good point (and it's been said before), in answer to those who say "start your own party," that never works if you're trying to start a party on a job no one wants to see in endgame.
English-speaking populations are just too damn small to keep going with this nonsense, and I think we will start to see more people quit/take breaks.

[Afania]

I can't tell if you are being serious or are trolling.

The only reason BLM is shouted for in skirmish is to ga/ja fodder mobs.

And if your reason for not wanting to bring another SAM to delve is because they can't wait 1 second to weapon skill, then there are bigger issues with that group.

The dev team has basically acknowledged that elemental magic is lacking after the weapon skill update. That is why they are going to adjust tier V nukes. You can't seriously tell me that BLM isn't among the dd jobs that need a boost. Even in delves like kahmir that require magic damage , you're probably better of using an elemental weapon skill.

People don't shout for BLM because there is usually a better alternative out there, not because you can't find a properly geared one.

I don't think they should nerf SAM or MNK, but they need to look at the other jobs. I agree that we can't expect every job to be useful for every event, but there are a handful of jobs that are absolutely the best choices for most content and a few that are never sought after. That is not balanced.

And I'm sorry but farming currency in dynamis does NOT count.

Ah, this isn't the issue of "SAM can't wait 1 sec to WS". This is the issue of certain way to do skill chain parse higher than another way; 1 single SAM doing multi step SC parse higher than 2 SAM doing fudo fudo light. Several groups claimed their kill speed increased after changing DD to BLM.

Stop claiming X job sucked before you try, and stop claiming others are trolling just because they presented an option you haven't try. Some BLM claimed to parse 85% of SAM in yorcia, not sure what's so bad about 85% in situations you can't WS.

[Afania]

.-.
Sure you can level jobs (I have 6 now I rotate through just so I can do end game) but that shouldn't HAVE to be the case. The DDs should not be different from one another by the end of the battle, accept for the difference given to them by gear etc. I.E all things equal DD = DD = DD = DD, that is balance, right now that is not the case.


I don't agree with you, at all. This isn't the design philosophy of FFXI, and it shouldn't be the right direction.

If you like every job functions the same, play FFXIV. The design philosophy of FFXI is to lv multiple jobs and play multiple jobs, and use different jobs/setups for different situations. I think Matsui specifically said that a while ago. This is a MMO with a job change system, and every job isn't just another DD but something more to that, jobs SHOULD be different. I agree that DD jobs like WAR DRK DRG needs a boost, but BST BLU THF PUP shouldn't cry about not functioning the same as DD jobs. What's the point to play a MMO with 22 jobs, only 6 of them are mages rest are all DD?




I mean, people say "THF has TH" but almost no events NEED treasure hunter anymore. Delve? Lots of drops without TH thanks. Skirmish? Doesn't increase the number of drops one bit. Sorry what current content favours TH?

Higher lv BC, AA/DM. Stop pretending situations favor certain jobs doesn't exist.

[Balloon]

I don't agree with you, at all. This isn't the design philosophy of FFXI, and it shouldn't be the right direction.

If you like every job functions the same, play FFXIV. The design philosophy of FFXI is to lv multiple jobs and play multiple jobs, and use different jobs/setups for different situations. I think Matsui specifically said that a while ago. This is a MMO with a job change system, and every job isn't just another DD but something more to that, jobs SHOULD be different. I agree that DD jobs like WAR DRK DRG needs a boost, but BST BLU THF PUP shouldn't cry about not functioning the same as DD jobs. What's the point to play a MMO with 22 jobs, only 6 of them are mages rest are all DD?

Right, because having lots of jobs be functionally useless 90% of the time is much better?

Doing different things to perform the same task (DDing) is what I want to see. SAM does Skillchains, Pet jobs have pets. Why can't they perform similarly, they are functionally different in how they achieve that task.

[Afania]

Right, because having lots of jobs be functionally useless 90% of the time is much better?

Exactly what job is useless 90% of time? And I'm not entirely convinced that PUP do less than 50% of SAM, I've pt with PUP in delve before and that shouldn't be the case. I'll double check with spreadsheet.

[Balloon]

Exactly what job is useless 90% of time? And I'm not entirely convinced that PUP do less than 50% of SAM, I've pt with PUP in delve before and that shouldn't be the case. I'll double check with spreadsheet.

They're not even close, let's be realistic. Our pets die instantly so there's no way to fill the gap like that.

BLU should be able to close the gap with spells, SAMs with skillchains, PUPs and BSTs with Pets etc etc. I don't see why they can't be competitive, they're still doing things differently. They've mentioned they want WAR to be more interesting mechanically, so clearly they think similarly. They also mentioned that they want pets + main >= DDs. That is the kind of thing I want to see.

[Afania]

They're not even close, let's be realistic. Our pets die instantly so there's no way to fill the gap like that.

BLU should be able to close the gap with spells, SAMs with skillchains, PUPs and BSTs with Pets etc etc. I don't see why they can't be competitive, they're still doing things differently. They've mentioned they want WAR to be more interesting mechanically, so clearly they think similarly. They also mentioned that they want pets + main >= DDs. That is the kind of thing I want to see.

Are you comparing SAM solo SC situation or 3 DD engage NM situation? If you're comparing 1 single PUP v.s 1 single SAM, PUP isn't the only job got trashed. EVERY job in this game can't come close to 1 single SAM solo SC.

[Balloon]

Any situation. Maybe 50% is an overstatement, but it isn't close, not even a little.

[Afania]

Any situation. Maybe 50% is an overstatement, but it isn't close, not even a little.


Checking the spreadsheet, delve PUP is around 65% of SAM when I turn off maneuvers, close to 60% if it's on. Mythic AM3 seems broken on spreadsheet so I can't check KKK PUP. Pretty sure KKK PUP is higher.

So yeah overstatement indeed.

I'm tired of ppl spreading wrong math/information to support their own argument on the forum. It's ok if you want a buff of your favorite job, but do you feel like you need to make up the number to support your opinion? When I said having a BLM in yorcia may enhance kill speed over another SAM due to how solo SC works, someone never tried such setup said I'm trolling because BLM is supposed to be bad. Now there's someone else claiming PUP do less than half of SAM when that's obviously not the case.

Byrth claimed to parse over 85% of SAM in yorcia, mind you. Not sure how is that even "trolling" to say it's not bad.

Then there's someone else claiming TH is completely useless when another pt just /shouted for THF for AA BC another day, on top of almost every DM alliance uses THF.

I mean, it's not super useful, but it's not completely useless....unless you purposely ignore the situation you'd use it.

It's fine if you want a buff for your job, but stop making things up.

[Balloon]

A discrepancy of 15% from a number I admitted I made up is a HUGE overstatement? I never said there was any maths involved. It was fairly clear I made that number up. As was the 90%. It's hyperbole.

That's still a pretty big difference.

[Afania]

A discrepancy of 15% from a number I admitted I made up is a HUGE overstatement? I never said there was any maths involved. It was fairly clear I made that number up.

That's a pretty big difference.


If you add the Mythic AM3 from KKK, I'm pretty sure the gap is over 15%.

Also the point isn't about 15% discrepancy, the point is ppl tend to make up facts and numbers to support their own argument that X job needs a buff, if someone else disagree then he/she is "trolling".

[Rubicant82]

It all makes sense to me now!
The reason Afania is so adamant about keeping things one way is that (s)he sells Delve clears, and any moderate change would impede his/her gil income.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/dreamboi19/Afania_zpsaed6ccee.jpg

[Afania]

It all makes sense to me now!
The reason Afania is so adamant about keeping things one way is that (s)he sells Delve clears, and any moderate change would impede his/her gil income.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/dreamboi19/Afania_zpsaed6ccee.jpg

Ah, I didn't sell delve clear as much, and I wasn't against the change for personal gain. I love the fact that you repeatly personal attack me just because I disagree with your opinion about game direction. I'm not sure HOW making every DD equal would decrease my personal gain when I don't even play DD jobs.

[Olor]

That's still a pretty big difference.

Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry but how is a PUP parsing 65% of a SAM (by ignoring their pet!) acceptable in any way? What supposed awesome benefit does PUP have that can make up that HUGE of a damage difference? And again, no job should have to get a mythic to compete on the same terms as someone on another job that has a way easier to obtain weapon, let alone to STILL be left in the dust. Frankly - Afania - you make my point for me.

There should be no more than 10 per cent parsing difference between any similarly geared DD. 10 per cent is more than enough to make up for any supposed "utility" other jobs have over straight DDs. And yes, that includes "light DDs." 10 per cent is still pretty substantial - but it's at least surmountable. When a job can only perform a role at 60-65% - it's just a burden to the group.

This nonsense where 2 or 3 jobs are real DDs and everyone else is either support or that clown who wants to come on a subpar job needs to end.

[Balloon]

If you add the Mythic AM3 from KKK, I'm pretty sure the gap is over 15%.

Also the point isn't about 15% discrepancy, the point is ppl tend to make up facts and numbers to support their own argument that X job needs a buff, if someone else disagree then he/she is "trolling".

I didn't say you were trolling. I made that number up. Then I admitted I made that number up. It was a guess, and it was a fairly close one.

I very very much doubt that AM3 closes the gap to that short when compared to a koga sam. Just getting and maintaining 300% tp alone is harder for puppetmaster.
Then you have the difference in Acc from B h2h, the removal of several tiers of Martial Arts.

I'm also fairly sure that's not the reason Rubicant, people will pay regardless.

[Afania]

Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry but how is a PUP parsing 65% of a SAM (by ignoring their pet!) acceptable in any way? What supposed awesome benefit does PUP have that can make up that HUGE of a damage difference? And again, no job should have to get a mythic to compete on the same terms as someone on another job that has a way easier to obtain weapon. Frankly - Afania - you make my point for me.

There should be no more than 10 per cent parsing difference between any similarly geared DD. 10 per cent is more than enough to make up for any supposed "utility" other jobs have over straight DDs. And yes, that includes "light DDs."

This nonsense where 2 or 3 jobs are real DDs and everyone else is either support or that clown who wants to come on a subpar job needs to end.

I didn't say PUP doesn't need a buff if you read my previous post, I said it's in a worse situation than THF. I think SE should create more content to let PUP shine with 65% of dmg of SAM, instead of raising PUP's dmg to 90% of SAM.

What's the point to use PUP(which has 90% dmg of SAM) over SAM? PUP is only a viable alternative if it's 100% dmg of SAM. Further more, it's lacking variety if every job is just another DD.

IMO pet job needs an entire different advantage that real DD does not have. But making pet jobs into DD is just turning FFXI into FFXIV. Obviously I'm against dev turning FFXI into FFXIV. If I want to play FFXIV I'd do that year ago.

And stop doing personal attack or even pull out irrelevant argument such as delve merc just because I don't want another FFXIV.

[Balloon]

I didn't say PUP doesn't need a buff if you read my previous post, I said it's in a worse situation than THF. I think SE should create more content to let PUP shine with 65% of dmg of SAM, instead of raising PUP's dmg to 90% of SAM.

What's the point to use PUP(which has 90% dmg of SAM) over SAM? PUP is only a viable alternative if it's 100% dmg of SAM. Further more, it's lacking variety if every job is just another DD.

IMO pet job needs an entire different advantage that real DD does not have. But making pet jobs into DD is just turning FFXI into FFXIV.

In the entire life cycle of this game I have never seen anything to suggest that there'll be anything but the need for Mages and DDs. How does it turn it into FFXIV? Because several jobs can Deal damage? That's entirely the point. They deal damage in uniquely different ways. I don't understand your point. You want jobs to be .. what? So mechanically diverse but useless.

90% of a sam would let me do all the content, on a job I want to play on. Isn't that the point? Let's create content not everyone can do because the dev team is made up of a 1000 people. There's a finite amount of people playing and a finite amount of time they can put into content creation. Balancing the job eases it for everyone.

Ad Hominem is stupid. Argue the points, not attack others. If anything it makes your argument look weaker. There's plenty to actually discuss.

[Rubicant82]

Ah, I didn't sell delve clear as much, and I wasn't against the change for personal gain. I love the fact that you repeatly personal attack me just because I disagree with your opinion about game direction. I'm not sure HOW making every DD equal would decrease my personal gain when I don't even play DD jobs.

That picture was the only remotely personal attack I personally have made.
You can have your opinion, I just get curious as to why people think the way they do.
I feel that balancing out the DD, by increasing the those that lack not nerfing others, will lead to a more sustainable game, and happier player base.
I was just amused at your AH listing to sell delve wins and thus used that as a way to help invalidate your opinions at least from my view point.

FFXI is about how the player wants to play, not what SE says you should. Which is why it is important that players can still do what they want to do as the job they want to do it on. If someone wants to do delve on BST, PUP, or NIN etc ... there should be a place for them there. Same for all other end game content. There should be a place for every job in every content. As I mentioned all things equal DDs should output equal damage at the end of the battle. Where in ones gear & Skill at the job one plays should make the difference. I don't understand how people are so against people being able to enjoy the game.

[Afania]

In the entire life cycle of this game I have never seen anything to suggest that there'll be anything but the need for Mages and DDs. How does it turn it into FFXIV? Because several jobs can Deal damage? That's entirely the point. They deal damage in uniquely different ways. I don't understand your point. You want jobs to be .. what? So mechanically diverse but useless.

90% of a sam would let me do all the content, on a job I want to play on. Isn't that the point? Let's create content not everyone can do because the dev team is made up of a 1000 people. There's a finite amount of people playing and a finite amount of time they can put into content creation. Balancing the job eases it for everyone.

Ad Hominem is stupid. Argue the points, not attack others. If anything it makes your argument look weaker. There's plenty to actually discuss.

I want the job to be mechanically diverse but useful, not mechanically diverse but useless(like now) nor mechanically the same but useful(like what you're suggesting).

I wasn't defending for current situation, but I don't think your suggestion is the way to go as well.

I didn't attack anyone FYI, I'm the victim, from someone who clearly misunderstand my point to begin with.

[Balloon]

I want the job to be mechanically diverse but useful, not mechanically diverse but useless(like now) nor mechanically the same but useful(like what you're suggesting).

I wasn't defending for current situation, but I don't think your suggestion is the way to go as well.

I didn't attack anyone FYI, I'm the victim, from someone who clearly misunderstand my point to begin with.

I wasn't talking to you in that regard, I was talking to the person who attacked you - sorry.

They wouldn't BE mechanically the same, they'd just act towards the same end. I can't see how you can see Puppetmaster doing damage with a pet and himself being the same as a sam being same as a dancer. They act so differently.

Content has been the same for years, it's always had the need for dds and never these diverse jobs. The game doesn't justify the use of 'jack of all trait jobs'. Christ, look at RDM pre-update.

[Afania]

That picture was the only remotely personal attack I personally have made.
You can have your opinion, I just get curious as to why people think the way they do.
I feel that balancing out the DD, by increasing the those that lack not nerfing others, will lead to a more sustainable game, and happier player base.
I was just amused at your AH listing to sell delve wins and thus used that as a way to help invalidate your opinions at least from my view point.

FFXI is about how the player wants to play, not what SE says you should. Which is why it is important that players can still do what they want to do as the job they want to do it on. If someone wants to do delve on BST, PUP, or NIN etc ... there should be a place for them there. Same for all other end game content. There should be a place for every job in every content. As I mentioned all things equal DDs should output equal damage at the end of the battle. Where in ones gear & Skill at the job one plays should make the difference. I don't understand how people are so against people being able to enjoy the game.

If the fact that I'm looking for buyer is actually relevant to the point I made, then yes I'd agree with you. But the point is, I still fail to see HOW selling delve win is ever relevant to job balance.

I'm against your POV is mainly about game design direction, less about personal gain. Originally the way they design job/game mechanics is, X job shine in certain situation and Y shine in another. By offering wide variety of different situation and content, each job has it's place.

In ARR it's very different, SMN, BRD MNK DRG are all DD, and their output is quite close. Some job has certain advantage such as ranged dmg or AoE, but overall it's much closer to each other and every job can do content just fine. But fundamentally they're all DD jobs. If that's what I want I'd play ARR.

Many jobs in FFXI isn't designed to be a DD job to begin with. BST is designed to be a solo job from the very beginning. So instead of turning BST into another DD that do 100% dmg of SAM, why not just create a content that only BST can shine as a solo job? That way BST is can be played like intended, which is to shine in solo situation.

I don't agree that making BST doing 100% of SAM make the game enjoyable. If I'm playing a job that's not a real DD, I expect myself to do something other DD can't.

[Balloon]

If the fact that I'm looking for buyer is actually relevant to the point I made, then yes I'd agree with you. But the point is, I still fail to see HOW selling delve win is ever relevant to job balance.

I'm against your POV is mainly about game design direction, less about personal gain. Originally the way they design job/game mechanics is, X job shine in certain situation and Y shine in another. By offering wide variety of different situation and content, each job has it's place.

In ARR it's very different, SMN, BRD MNK DRG are all DD, and their output is quite close. Some job has certain advantage such as ranged dmg or AoE, but overall it's much closer to each other and every job can do content just fine. But fundamentally they're all DD jobs. If that's what I want I'd play ARR.

Many jobs in FFXI isn't designed to be a DD job to begin with. BST is designed to be a solo job from the very beginning. So instead of turning BST into another DD that do 100% dmg of SAM, why not just create a content that only BST can shine as a solo job? That way BST is can be played like intended, which is to shine in solo situation.

I don't agree that making BST doing 100% of SAM make the game enjoyable. If I'm playing a job that's not a real DD, I expect myself to do something other DD can't.

Because having solo content that only bst can do is equally exclusionary... And we have a small dev team. And that's not going to happen.

Solo job is nonsense, because again, it solod itself up to 75.. Which was tedious, and long. It doesn't even play like that anymore. You can't charm anything. NIN was conceived of as a magic dd, and it changed in light of what the community did with it. It's the same scenario now.

And then there are the jobs that are DDs but just can't compete.

[Afania]

I wasn't talking to you in that regard, I was talking to the person who attacked you - sorry.

They wouldn't BE mechanically the same, they'd just act towards the same end. I can't see how you can see Puppetmaster doing damage with a pet and himself being the same as a sam being same as a dancer. They act so differently.

Content has been the same for years, it's always had the need for dds and never these diverse jobs. The game doesn't justify the use of 'jack of all trait jobs'. Christ, look at RDM pre-update.

For years I've seen ppl asking dev to fix RDM, by making it into WHM. But one update they fixed RDM without turning it into WHM. It's the perfect example of how to fix jobs.

I simply think the entire pet job category needs a fix, and it needs a unique advantage that melee DD does not have without turning it into another melee.

[Afania]

Because having solo content that only bst can do is equally exclusionary... And we have a small dev team. And that's not going to happen.


It's not "exclusionary" in a game with job change system and it's designed to play multiple jobs if you want to do everything. And yeah, dev needs to create a content that charm has a use, instead of turning BST into SAM.

What's with that "I want to do everything at max efficiency on 1 single job" obsession anyways.

[Balloon]

It's not "exclusionary" in a game with job change system and it's designed to play multiple jobs if you want to do everything.

What's with that "I want to do everything at max efficiency on 1 single job" obsession anyways.

You keep changing what I'm saying. I don't want max efficiency. I want it to be VIABLE. Something the community would allow. It's not.

[Afania]

You keep changing what I'm saying. I don't want max efficiency. I want it to be VIABLE. Something the community would allow. It's not.

I've done delve with PUP many times, he wasn't too far behind SAM until recent SAM buff, it's perfectly VIABLE if you don't care about max efficiency. I mean, you can clear delve in 20 min, it doesn't matter what job you're bringing if you don't aim for max efficiency. PUP sucks is only a valid argument if you're aiming for max efficiency.

[Balloon]

You keep changing what I'm saying. I don't want max efficiency. I want it to be VIABLE. Something the community would allow. It's not.

If you create a job system where only 6-10 of those jobs at any given time are useful then there's a problem. What does RUN even do these days?

They've made it very clear they're focusing on 6 man content for a long while, so if they're focusing on one type of content they should make it so that you can do it on any given job - Yes, I could change to bard, or whm, or level SAM. Then I never touch my other jobs. Then I'm just.. what? collecting gear to look pretty?

[Afania]

If you create a job system where only 6-10 of those jobs at any given time are useful then there's a problem.

Then the better way to solve the problem is to create more content that the rest of 14 job shines, not making the rest of 14 jobs the same as 6~10 jobs.

Whether dev has enough resource to do that is another argument. I'm just presenting my opinion about a more ideal way to solve the issue.

BTW, ppl /shout for RUN for shadowlord BC 24/7, it's not completely useless.

[Balloon]

And I'm presenting a pragmatic solution because they're not going to do that.

I don't understand why they'd be the same. I really don't. They'd be performing the same role, but they wouldn't be the same. That point really baffles me.

They're played differently, they act differently, they perform the same task.

[Afania]

And I'm presenting a pragmatic solution because they're not going to do that.

I don't understand why they'd be the same. I really don't. They'd be performing the same role, but they wouldn't be the same. That point really baffles me.

They're played differently, they act differently, they perform the same task.

They have different function though. A BST soloing a IT++ NM with pet and make tons of gil does not have the same function as SAM spamming fudo in a 6 man pt.

A BST spamming ruinator in a 6 man pt functions the same as SAM spamming fudo in a 6 man pt though.

[Balloon]

They have different function though. A BST soloing a IT++ NM with pet and make tons of gil does not have the same function as SAM spamming fudo in a 6 man pt.

A BST spamming ruinator in a 6 man pt functions the same as SAM spamming fudo in a 6 man pt though.

When was the last time that even happened? And there's now Trusts, so.. Solo stuff is pretty much everyones game. why can't dding.

And you make so much more gil selling wins and gear than you ever ever ever ever ever did soloing nms, that you lost claim on, and got stolen at 1%.

And that's one job, pup can't do that.

[Mitruya]

Something that continues to baffle me (and sorry for repeating it again), is why does SE continue to release new and higher items for all jobs, when most jobs don't get to do anything hard enough to even need the stuff to begin with?
We sure don't need ilevel for Dynamis and maybe not even Salvage.
It's hard to compare if I'm taking reives down faster with Divinator since they keep nerfing them.
I got an Upukirex, yet there doesn't seem to be any need or want for DRGs in any content past Ceizak Delve. The wyvern defensive buffs aren't solving the main problem that affects invites.
Sparks and bayld gear and reforged stuff is probably enough for people to run around in SoA areas, maybe even in WKR if there are enough people beating on it.
Plus we have Trusts now, any job can be a solo job really. "Solo job only" is not a valid argument in 2014.
And there's been this steady trend since Abyssea of more solo and low-man stuff, which is sort of great for casuals but creates an atmosphere of "go solo it" or "buy a PC and multi-box," and people running in tight little groups of very strict set-ups leaving others behind because they don't already have the drops from the content to enter the content ....

[Afania]

When was the last time that even happened? And there's now Trusts, so.. Solo stuff is pretty much everyones game. why can't dding.

And you make so much more gil selling wins and gear than you ever ever ever ever ever did soloing nms, that you lost claim on, and got stolen at 1%.

And that's one job, pup can't do that.


You only make more gil selling wins if you 5 box or split with 2 ppl. If you don't own mules then it's not that profitable because you need time to find a buyer and split gil with your pt member.

I highly doubt SAM with trusts can solo NM like PW, also you can't use trust in dyna so you can't solo ADL with trusts.




Plus we have Trusts now, any job can be a solo job really. "Solo job only" is not a valid argument in 2014.


It's very easy to solve this issue, don't let ppl summon trusts in instances.

[Balloon]

You only make more gil selling wins if you 5 box or split with 2 ppl. If you don't own mules then it's not that profitable because you need time to find a buyer and split gil with your pt member.

I highly doubt SAM with trusts can solo NM like PW, also you can't use trust in dyna so you can't solo ADL with trusts.

PUP can't either, Maybe bst can? I don't know, I haven't seen it. I've seen RDM and RUN solo PW. BST I think would just get overwhelmed and die.

And again.. level 99 and level 75 content. Wohhhhhoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. I could get 2 friends and do PW. Probably less. We'd all farm pops solo and all get the same amount of money at the end.

[Afania]

PUP can't either,


More like they fucked up the pet job as a whole. Again, the right way to solve the issue isn't turning PUP into SAM. Besides solo argument, I think it's more logical to make pet job into some sort of ranged DPS without hate issue(like how it's intended) instead of turning it into SAM.

[Balloon]

It's very easy to solve this issue, don't let ppl summon trusts in instances.

Penalise others to give a job a niche? The game doesn't have enough people for that nonsense.


More like they fucked up the pet job as a whole. Again, the right way to solve the issue isn't turning PUP into SAM.

GARRRRRAGASGH. Stop saying turning PUP into Sam, because that's not what I'm advocating at all. A pet and his master should be able to do equal damage to a SAM. Square have said that this is there vision for the job. You have to maintain, guide and gear for a pet. It's so radically freaking different.

Yeah, I'd take some an increase in the ranged dps of our Sharpshot. I'd take anything. It's piss poor at the minute. Puppets are supposed to fight alongside there master though. As are Beastmasters. That's the point of the jobs.

Incoming 3 more posts where you say I want to turn PUP into SAM. Good god.

[Afania]

Penalise others to give a job a niche? The game doesn't have enough people for that nonsense.

It isn't a penalty, you already can't summon trust in dyna/delve/salvage.

[Raydeus]

SE basically admitted that sam was overpowered, which is why they are updating other jobs http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/41383-Solo-Accomplishments-Party-Barriers-and-Enhancing-the-Community?p=513076&viewfull=1#post513076

I also disagree with the notion that this is a player problem as opposed to a balance issue when SE basically admitted this in the aforementioned link. Although players tend to use the easiest strategy, I agree with that. However, Bst is not out-dding a sam nor rng. That is a balance problem. Pets are stripped down/experience accuracy issues on difficult battles and the master is essentially a one-handed dd. Not sure the pt would clear lvl128 delve by swapping out sam for bst. I mean, replace rng and sams with bst; yikes. If it can be done, I am wit it^^ Perhaps it will open the eyes of the community, but i seriously doubt it....

This part is exactly the problem with players that I'm talking about.

Players are so dumb they want to exchange one job that plays one way with another that plays completely differently while using the exact same cookie cutter strategy they copied from someone else and are outraged when it doesn't work the same.

You don't just "replace SAMs and RNGs with BSTs" and play the same way. You also have to adjust your strategy, which requires actually thinking a bit. And that is what most players are incapable of doing, hence the exclusion of jobs that don't fit in the current bandwagon strategy.

This is one of the major reasons why I personally don't bother with end game anymore, just can't deal with just how cowardly unimaginative players can be. A loss or two and you always have people whining about party composition and rage quitting good parties, even if said parties always end up winning consistently later on. And the same can be said about gear "requirements" and BiS bullshit, but that's just another symptom of the same disease.

But anyway, about SAM being overpowered or not it really doesn't mean anything, because there will always be a job that is considered OP no matter what. And no amount of tweaking will ever fix that. If SAM is nerfed another job will take it's place in the OP hall of fame the next week and nothing will have changed at all. Because again, the problem are the players.

[WoW]

Because that's a whole heap of nonsense, the game has never really been like that at all. What did BST solo other than 1-75 and a few, select nms? The game has always been tiered like that, and all I want is for some of those tier lists to be changed. I don't actually think THF should surpass sam, but it's not even close, and the benefits of th don't fix that. Jobs should be closer to each other, not equal.

Jobs should be able to participate in all content, and it should be effective. It's not effective to do a Marjami run without a group of rangers, what I want it a situation where, because you've shouted for an hour already, someone goes "Well we might as well shout for x" not "Oh we might as well stop shouting."

Using the 75 model now is so baffling to me, it's not the same game, and some of the jobs should be reflected to change that. Because it's a waste of dev time to create solo content that won't give good rewards.

I agree.

Will also add; as a old school bst; those solos were extremely slow and painful, lol. Ppl assume that bst was this monstrous job whom steam rolled through NMs; even abyssea NMs took some time to kill. We only soloed them because nobody invited bst, lol.

[Balloon]

Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster
To give a rough overview of our plans for these three jobs, we’re planning to boost the combined damage over time capability of the master and pet so that it is greater than that of your standard damage dealer as there are certain costs associated with maintaining pets.

As such, the development team is looking into the following adjustments:

Implementation of higher-tier mochi
By adding new mochi, a pet’s attack and accuracy will be supplemented further.


Improvements to the power of special abilities
Just as we increased the damage value of pet’s special abilities in the January version update, we’ll be making further adjustments to this again as we move forward.


New “Call Beast” pets
We’re still in the midst of planning the addition of new pets, and as an example of a pet that can utilized for a comparatively lower cost, a Lucerewe-type sheep has been brought up as a possible candidate.

[/list]

The team has been assigning priority to the various job adjustment tasks at hand, so please stayed tuned for further details for each of these adjustments.

For reference. I'd love to hear more on this, actually.

[WoW]

This part is exactly the problem with players that I'm talking about.

Players are so dumb they want to exchange one job that plays one way with another that plays completely differently while using the exact same cookie cutter strategy they copied from someone else and are outraged when it doesn't work the same.

You don't just "replace SAMs and RNGs with BSTs" and play the same way. You also have to adjust your strategy, which requires actually thinking a bit. And that is what most players are incapable of doing, hence the exclusion of jobs that don't fit in the current bandwagon strategy.

This is one of the major reasons why I personally don't bother with end game anymore, just can't deal with just how cowardly unimaginative players can be. A loss or two and you always have people whining about party composition and rage quitting good parties, even if said parties always end up winning consistently later on. And the same can be said about gear "requirements" and BiS bullshit, but that's just another symptom of the same disease.

But anyway, about SAM being overpowered or not it really doesn't mean anything, because there will always be a job that is considered OP no matter what. And no amount of tweaking will ever fix that. If SAM is nerfed another job will take it's place in the OP hall of fame the next week and nothing will have changed at all. Because again, the problem are the players.

Efficacy

Why bring a weaker dd, as opposed to a broken one? Sure ppl can try/do the bst strat, however, the chance of success is much higher with sams or rngs, because they are superior dd. Bottomline is this; sam and rng > bst. This is what the argument is about. Sams are better dd than bst; regardless if you get imaginative and clear a delve with dead ppl and red hp. Pets have crap acc and weak ready moves; why bring corsairs to buff them as opposed to a superior REMD dd? Sam and rng are better dd than bst and nearly everyone else; this is the argument. As a result, they are more efficient in endgame.

[Balloon]

Pet COR buffs are so dumb. They're exactly the same as the player equivalents but they just add Pet: To the front of them. Just make COR buffs Pet && player.

[Olor]

Unfortunately everything Camate says after the bolded part... is a terrible idea. Our ready moves are on an incredibly long timer... I mean Sic? SO LONG. It's just nuts that SAMs are pooping out weaponskills and my pet can use a move every minute or so? Ready moves would have to do 50K damage to even begin to get close with those timers.

Mochi is crap. It's slightly better than nothing, but not much more. Nevermind that it's YET ANOTHER way that pet players - BSTs in particular, are supposed to enrich crafters.

New pets are going to be useless. They already confirmed that they won't add any monsters that don't suck. As much as I am greatly looking forward to another sheep... um... no I'm not actually.

They clearly don't understand what our jobs need to be more powerful. Gear with pet stats on it that doesn't sacrifice ANY stats for the master. Pets with a higher level than current player ilevel (they need level correction or they suck), Pets taking DRASTICALLY less damage from AOE (unless they are main target) than players and immune to most/all status effects from AOE. Pets getting all party buffs. Pets able to be cured by outside players not just items/abilities on a really long timer.

If SE did all of that, then we'd at least suck a tiny bit less... but we'd still be weaker DDs than SAMs

[Raydeus]

Efficacy

Why bring a weaker dd, as opposed to a broken one? Sure ppl can try/do the bst strat, however, the chance of success is much higher with sams or rngs, because they are superior dd. Bottomline is this; sam and rng > bst. This is what the argument is about. Sams are better dd than bst; regardless if you get imaginative and clear a delve with dead ppl and red hp. Pets have crap acc and weak ready moves; why bring corsairs to buff them as opposed to a superior REMD dd? Sam and rng are better dd than bst and nearly everyone else; this is the argument. As a result, they are more efficient in endgame.

Efficacy? Yeah it's so efficient that SE had to make severe Enmity adjustments to placate the whining about tanks not being able to hold hate off DDs going all out on fights and getting themselves and the party killed as a result. Hate used to somewhat balance damage output because if you went too hard too soon you'd get yourself killed or become an unsustainable MP sponge. That is why in the past in those cases DDs would hold back and only go full on to finish the fights.

Also, in those cases jobs that are able to manage damage output and enmity better would have a more sustained damage over time, and coincidentally pet jobs are pretty good at doing just that. Less flashy for sure, but just as effective. In other words, SAM and RNG haven't changed much, it's just that now they can go nuts without getting killed as easy as before thanks to recent adjustments.

But to call that "efficient" is as applicable as calling an 8 cylinder car from the 70's more fuel efficient than an electric car just because it can go up a hill faster.


PS > And about those BST setup barely clearing the content, that would only happen at first while you got the strategy down, then it would be just as simple as the bandwagon strategies. It has always been that way.

[Balloon]

I don't understand how enmity works. At all.

Yeah, that's not how enmity works. There's a fundamental problem with it.

[Raydeus]

I put words on the people's mouth but don't make a proper post so maybe I can sound smarter.

I can see the fun in doing this. :D

[WoW]

Efficacy? Yeah it's so efficient that SE had to make severe Enmity adjustments to placate the whining about tanks not being able to hold hate off DDs going all out on fights and getting themselves and the party killed as a result. Hate used to somewhat balance damage output because if you went too hard too soon you'd get yourself killed or become an unsustainable MP sponge. That is why in the past in those cases DDs would hold back and only go full on to finish the fights.

Also, in those cases jobs that are able to manage damage output and enmity better would have a more sustained damage over time, and coincidentally pet jobs are pretty good at doing just that. Less flashy for sure, but just as effective. In other words, SAM and RNG haven't changed much, it's just that now they can go nuts without getting killed as easy as before thanks to recent adjustments.

But to call that "efficient" is as applicable as calling an 8 cylinder car from the 70's more fuel efficient than an electric car just because it can go up a hill faster.


PS > And about those BST setup barely clearing the content, that would only happen at first while you got the strategy down, then it would be just as simple as the bandwagon strategies. It has always been that way.

Most lvl99s know how to manage their dd output, hence nobody was talking about enmity. This is what we are saying: Sam and Rng > bst. The enmity is obviously a non-issue, because sams and rngs are in high demand. We are discussing job balance, not enmity; obviously too much damage draws enmity. I don't recall mentioning enmity or resenting that..........

Sam and RNG > Bst; this is what I am referring to. No clue were this other stuff is coming from "Shrugs"

If you are just defending your post; i will back off and let you get the last word. If enmity was a big deal; sam and rngs would not be in high demand. DDs are there to deal damage. We learned how to manage enmity in the dunes. Having weaker dds equates to longer battles and tp feed which results in mp sponge regardless brah.

[Olor]

If dude's point was that cause our damage is split we are better in terms of enemity... lol... we are better in terms of enemity because we deal a fraction of the damage of other jobs... that's not actually a desirable trait in a DD. Now, if we dealt 90 percent (even) of the damage as a SAM & with the split enemity - yes I agree we could be useful in some set ups... but right now it's almost like taking half a DD instead of a whole one when you take a pet job. With bosses with devastating moves, that's never gonna be desirable.

[WoW]

If dude's point was that cause our damage is split we are better in terms of enemity... lol... we are better in terms of enemity because we deal a fraction of the damage of other jobs... that's not actually a desirable trait in a DD. Now, if we dealt 90 percent (even) of the damage as a SAM & with the split enemity - yes I agree we could be useful in some set ups... but right now it's almost like taking half a DD instead of a whole one when you take a pet job. With bosses with devastating moves, that's never gonna be desirable.

Yea, that is what I got from his post too "Shrugs"

[Sasaraixx]

Ah, this isn't the issue of "SAM can't wait 1 sec to WS". This is the issue of certain way to do skill chain parse higher than another way; 1 single SAM doing multi step SC parse higher than 2 SAM doing fudo fudo light. Several groups claimed their kill speed increased after changing DD to BLM.

Stop claiming X job sucked before you try, and stop claiming others are trolling just because they presented an option you haven't try. Some BLM claimed to parse 85% of SAM in yorcia, not sure what's so bad about 85% in situations you can't WS.

So the reason for including a BLM is just to stay out of the way to allow the SAM to be even more broken? That really speaks volumes for the BLM job. ::eye roll:: Pretty much any job that can do decent damage without needed to use a WS that will interrupt a skill chain would do.

I can't help but call trolling when you compare thf being slightly better in dynamis to mnk being "slightly" better in delve. And you can try all the options you want to it won't change the reality of job hierarchy in this game.

[SMD111]

SAM has:
high tp output
high primary target damage
high defense

SAM does not have:
a way to attack multiple targets(unless you counter which is random at best)
--in other words no AoE or cone attacks(hence the need for high defense and damage)

[Afania]

So the reason for including a BLM is just to stay out of the way to allow the SAM to be even more broken?

Nothing wrong with that....SE adjusted SC dmg so MB get a place. If there's some sort of MB dmg+ % roll for BLM it'd be even stronger.

Not sure why the above point is relevant in this discussion anyways, sounds like a ton of SAM hate.


Pretty much any job that can do decent damage without needed to use a WS that will interrupt a skill chain would do.



No. I don't know any job that can do 85% of SAM without using WS to interrupt SAM's multi-step double light SC......besides BLM. That's due to the way SC works, you can't WS right after last WS for SC, you need to wait for a few sec. If you wait then you're wasting your TP, when you wait in a 3 DD setup you're wasting 5~6 free WS for nothing, thus lowering the output.

Note that a single SAM solo SC can do yorcia in 25 min. By logic a pt with 3 SAM should clear yorcia in 8~10 min because you have triple amount of output. In reality unless you have SAMs all split up on different target, most of the 3 DD setup clear yorcia in about 20 min, may be slightly less if everything is perfect, but certainly not 8~10 min lv without splitting up.

That proved a large amount of dmg are wasted when you have more than 1 melee in the pt and it's more logical to use a BLM over another SAM.




I can't help but call trolling when you compare thf being slightly better in dynamis to mnk being "slightly" better in delve. And you can try all the options you want to it won't change the reality of job hierarchy in this game.

Not sure what's wrong with MNK "slightly" better than THF in delve. I didn't say THF is stronger than MNK, I only said MNK isn't THAT much stronger than THF. At least before WS update it wasn't, highly doubt WS update changed much.

This is one of the old morimar parse I had with THF and MNK friends. I forgot if it's all T4 5+ tojil or just tojil.

THF: 174598(36.0%)
MNK: 173030(35.7%)

Note that the MNK isn't the best MNK ever, but he's still better than 80% of PUG 119 MNK you can find on this server.

This another morimar parse against another friend before WS update. Note that the WS update probably pushes SAM's output a lot higher than it was.

THF: 255795(39.8%)
SAM: 228083(35.5%)

I didn't notice a kill speed decrease with THF in pt, if anything it was faster than most of 3x MNK tojil PUG on my server. Personally I pt with quit a lot of DD on my server but idk any MNK that can do double amount of dmg THF can do.

Note that this isn't ceizak, it's morimar. Back when we did Ceizak with 18 man, another THF almost always parse top v.s other none piercing DDs.

I'm sorry if you think THF isn't a VIABLE DD in delve on target that doesn't have piercing resist. It may be slightly lower than top MNK, but it's certainly not A LOT lower to a point to make me sound like a troll.

The reality is, MNK's output is overestimated by the community. Just because every PUG /shout for MNK and SAM only, doesn't mean other job is THAT bad.

Also, just because I said THF can parse high and perfectly viable in delve, doesn't make me a troll.

[Sasaraixx]

snip

No, it has nothing to do with BLM and everything to do with SAM. It's not SAM hate. It's just the truth. If your idea of showing that one job is not in need of attention is by saying "it's a great choice because you can invite it to not get in the way of the SAM who is putting up ridiculous numbers," then we have different views of what job balance really is. I'm also dubious of this 85% claim if you are saying that 1 SAM can clear Yorcia in 20 minutes.

I'd assume SCH should be able to put up similar numbers then. You also spent a whole paragraph talking about eased damage in a 3 melee set up but that BLM and SAM is superior. Who took that 3rd spot? How would that compare to 2DD? And maybe the party will fight different targets so your argument collapse there too.

All your parse numbers are not persuasive because we don't know how well geared/skilled those players were and you already admitted that the MNK wasn't geared that well. But if you want to keep putting up parses showing thf out damaging SAM and MNK, then have at it. I'll let people who play those jobs weigh on on it.

And don't make up things I didn't say in order to make your point seem more valid. Please show me where I said thf isn't a viable dd for delve. You can't because I didn't. I'm laughing at you comparing dynamis to delve as if the two are even remotely similar interns of game balance or importance.

And for the record, you can clear delve with any job in this game. No one is saying that isn't the case. What we are saying is that there are clearly some jobs that are above others on most content, so why would you bother with the "other" jobs.

And as an aside, focusing on your parse numbers ignores the other things that a job brings to a party like survivability.

I apologize for the typos that are bound to be in this post. #iphoneautocorrect

[Balloon]

That's also in a tojil run, people brought mnk there before the influx of 119 and the nerf for survivability, not damage. I'm sure some jobs can compete, but again it comes down to having it be more difficult, requiring better team work, more luck, better gear, more concentration. Possible and Viable aren't the same thing. But that's Tojil, it's hardly the height of importance. I've ran on pup in Delve 1 and won. We do it for giggles.

I mean christ, look at populations, we see people abandoning runs because there's no brds/plds/rngs. That's not conducive to fun in a game with a dwindling playerbase. They've made headway with that. GEO is more viable than it once was as a buffer. So why can't other DDs become more viable?

I'm sure this is becoming a bit circular, but I'll repeat what I said before. Yes it's possible to clear, but there's a disparity in difficulty when using those other jobs. I'm guilty of this, if someone said they were setting up a Yorica run with a THF PUP BST BRD WHM COR, or whatever you'd go with, I just wouldn't go. There's such a high chance of failure.

[WoW]

^^I agree;

This month will most likely be my last hurrah, unless things change. I really have no issue walking away from this unbalanced/dated game; may I add the most unresponsive producers I have ever seen. Sub is already "to be cancelled" (So i will not forget, barely log in).There are better MMOs out there atm (Imo personally, which is why i log on sparsely), and in 2015 and beyond, SE is gonna face some serious comp from other MMOS. Ppl are already dropping out, as Balloon alluded to and I understand why; I barely long on as it is. Imo, I expect XIV to face the same fate in a year or two; same company, same traits. Died once, just saying.

With that being said, I do agree with Ray as it pertains to the playerbase; imo, they are robots, copy > paste > repeat. Not saying reading a strat, tips, etc are wrong, i mean, you cannot blame them due to the enormous gap between dds. Imo, XI enforces the robot mentality with this insane dd hierarchy. At least XIV was fairly balanced when i played it waaaay back when (However, I read that the XIV playerbase resemble robots as-well).

[Mitruya]

I think the only thing that's kept me around is still having friends who play, the chance meeting of new friends when I get over my shyness to shout for myself, and the fun of socializing on the forums (and I'm going to miss conversing with those who stop subbing).
But I've also questioned this imbalance BS I pay for every month, the deadness of my server, the cookie-cutter setups that prevent anything from actually happening (because fewer people have those princess jobs or are online), the lack of Monstrosity updates, etc.
I don't know if it's school time or vacation time or what, but I swear things get quieter and quieter, linkshells are emptying, endgame shouts are few and only center on BRD/WHM/RNG ... also people's time and gil-pockets are so precious that there's often little incentive to team-up anymore.
Many people have already nailed it by saying that all (or more of) the jobs need to be viable so we can fill parties, and/or content needs to be balanced so as to not favor a certain set-up only.
Even Disney Infinity is starting to look more appealing for next month ... because Loki. ;p

[Balloon]

I think a lot of the problem is the community. It's not all of the problem. They make changes to something, admittedly late, and it gets lambasted by the community. They tried to correct the imbalance with REM and people screamed and cried. They release a +4 bard weapon and we once again see the tears. It's a balancing act, and they often succumb more to popular demand.

I often think they develop things in a vacuum too. We've not got an augment system based randomly on stones, when we could have easily used evoliths to remove some of the randomness of the system. But they created that and abandoned it. Pankration, Synergy, Monstrosity - All abandoned. The annoying thing about this is that they don't reincorporate any of these old systems, we're seeing the same now with trusts, rather than take what they're doing with that AI and extend it to Pets/Fellows.

And Skirmish 119 weapons aren't that great. So that's a new system that won't get done much. I just want them to have more understanding of how the game is played.

[Afania]

No, it has nothing to do with BLM and everything to do with SAM. It's not SAM hate. It's just the truth. If your idea of showing that one job is not in need of attention is by saying "it's a great choice because you can invite it to not get in the way of the SAM who is putting up ridiculous numbers," then we have different views of what job balance really is. I'm also dubious of this 85% claim if you are saying that 1 SAM can clear Yorcia in 20 minutes.


If you read my previous post I do agree that SAM is OP, but that's the only job that's OP atm. MNK is just fine, it's certainly not OP in terms of output, with recent HP adjustment one of it's major advantage is also gone. MNK is more of "easy to play job for casuals" than OP.

SAM solo clearing in 25(not 20) min is more of an issue of OP SC dmg, less about SAM's actual dmg. When half of the dmg came from SC, that's how the game works, having more than a couple of melee ended up wasting spot.

BLM did 85% of SAM came from the number from BG, and it doesn't seem unrealistic at all due to yorcia kinda favor magic dmg on T3, 4 and 5. I can easily do 85% of SAM on COR with 1 darksday bonus if not counting SC bonus, with double darksday bonus I can parse as high or outparse most SAM in yorcia on COR with 8~9k WS avg. It's the extra SC dmg that really made the difference so SAM pulled ahead. I can't do self double light/dark on COR, my most powerful WS leaden salute can't solo lv3/4 SC, while SAM's most powerful WS fudo can double light. Despite I can do over 85% or more dmg than a SAM with my melee/WS dmg with darksday bonus, SAM still parse higher with better SC dmg.

Also depend on your support/DT- set capability you can probably AoE adds on BLM, which also pushes parse higher.




I'd assume SCH should be able to put up similar numbers then. You also spent a whole paragraph talking about eased damage in a 3 melee set up but that BLM and SAM is superior. Who took that 3rd spot? How would that compare to 2DD? And maybe the party will fight different targets so your argument collapse there too.


Ideally, you can have each SAM solo 1 NM and reduce the kill time a lot, in reality it's harder to pull off with most groups. It does require more team work than your avg "kill A, move on, kill B, move on then kill C" PUG.

You can try that if you want, since I don't have a static/close friend and I often do delve with random ppl with low trust/team work between each other, plus subpar quality mages, it's just creating more pain in the pass to do that.



All your parse numbers are not persuasive because we don't know how well geared/skilled those players were and you already admitted that the MNK wasn't geared that well. But if you want to keep putting up parses showing thf out damaging SAM and MNK, then have at it. I'll let people who play those jobs weigh on on it.


I didn't say the MNK wasn't geared well, I said he's better than 80% of MNK on my server, how is that "not geared well"? I can only name less than 10 MNK that can compete or beat him, none of them can do double amount of dmg, more like minor win if they win.

I've done many 2~3 min tojil without removing the attack down aura, I don't think they're gimp. If THF is a major hindrance in terms of output I wouldn't invite THF to begin with.

Either way, since you gladly admit that you don't play the job, your opinion about the job doesn't matter as well.




And don't make up things I didn't say in order to make your point seem more valid. Please show me where I said thf isn't a viable dd for delve. You can't because I didn't. I'm laughing at you comparing dynamis to delve as if the two are even remotely similar interns of game balance or importance.


I'm not sure what's wrong with comparing dynamis to delve when both are content in FFXI? For the entire thread I see ppl say X job suck, Y job suck, because for some reason they only do delve 24/7 so their jobs are "useless", seriously?

Currently I spend 40% of my time doing CP farm, 20% of my time doing gil/PW farm, 30% of my time on delve and 10% on higher tier BC. Delve is only 30% of my time in FFXI.

Everyday when I log on, my lsmate/friends are either:

1. Farming dyna/salvage/ein for relic or mythic. They spend 70% of their time doing that.

2. Making skirmish pt.

3. Making VW pt.

4. In rare occasion, doing WoE. (Which may be a content favors pet job, mind you)

5. Making AA MR pt for the mask, which doesn't favor SAM if you do D/VD.

6. Delve.....they spend less than half of their time doing delve, even if they have proper delve jobs.

From my personal observation, for at least 90% of the player, delve is only a small part of their FFXI life. Even if they have SAM MNK BRD WHM leveled, they still often spend slightly more time in other content, especially dyna/salvage, which requires THF for max efficiency.

So I really don't understand the logic behind entire QQ thread about SAM being OP when majority of the player probably only need SAM less than 50% of time in FFXI. Sure, SAM needs a nerf, but it's not like if SE doesn't nerf SAM, other jobs would be completely useless since some of the jobs aren't designed to be a real DD. Ppl yelled at THF being useless then proceed to pretend AA/DM /shout for THF doesn't exist and the majority of population isn't spending most of their time farming dyna. Ppl QQ about pet job being useless, while I agree that pet jobs need a buff it's still used in other content. Ppl QQ about RUN being useless but I see shadowlord BC /shout for RUN pretty often. Ppl QQ about BLM being useless, while JP skirmish pt often insist to bring a BLM.

And whenever I pointed out X job isn't completely useless in other content that's not delve, ppl disagree with my opinion because only delve counts, every other content that's not delve doesn't count.

Grass is greener on the other side of fence, isn't it? Unless everyone spend 90% of their time in delve, all argument about X job doesn't get invite in delve is invalid IMO.

[Mitruya]

They really need to add up all the bitching about "x job QQ" and "server merge QQ" and take a look at why people are upset.
I know I shouldn't complain about all the stuff they have added month after month; at the same time I don't think I'm reaping much from it and so I come out with more disappointment than excitement.
I'll be the first to admit that part of it is me - scheduling, shyness, wanting to be a follower not a leader. But I'm not the only one to remark that Valefor is quiet, and I'm seeing posts from different servers over and over saying the same thing.
People are saying, "I can't fill parties," "zones are empty, there's no one to play with," "unwanted job X has all this great 119 gear and I still don't get to use it," "I'm bored please update Monstrosity," "make my pet worthwhile," "put jobs on appropriate equipment/weapons," "give us more ways to collect capacity points and REM items (therefore keeping us busy)", and blah blah blah.
Aren't the survey results telling them anything?
People are dissatisfied/uninterested in Monstrosity because it fell by the wayside.
People are dissatisfied/want to try high-tier stuff but can't get into parties.
People want to do more Campaign but there's not much reason to do so, medals take too long and people couldn't enjoy the special campaign event, and you can't help others in different WOTG nation lines.
And, the most important point people have been trying to make, is that with 22 jobs pretty much anything should be able to fill in the standard party roles and still have fun and clear content, not be as useless as a red-shirted crew member on Start Trek.

@Afania: I'm glad we agree that pet jobs need a buff. I think, though I can't speak for everyone, that we're not talking about just Delve. Depending on the people you know and your server, your experiences may be different, but I am not hearing much demand for pet jobs in ANY party content. Yeah, there might be "bring your DRG to duo Salvage" or "let's throw pets at Angra Mainyu" and I've heard of some folks taking PUP to AAs or whatever, but usually it's "summon Trusts and go solo it" or "do you have any other jobs?"

[Balloon]

You and I have a difference of opinion on what constitutes relevant content, then, because I don't considering being able to do 75-99 content as being "okay."

Delve 1, Delve 2, Skirm to a lesser Extent, High Level Battlefields - all relevant endgame

Walk of the Echoes, Dynamis, Salvage.. all level 99 stuff that anyone can do. It's not the same. If I went on anything I wouldn't be sacrificing that much, unlike the endgame content, where yeah if I took pup/dnc/thf over RNG/SAM I'd be sacrificing a hell of a lot. Maybe not in Delve 1, but Delve 1 is easier.

[Afania]

You and I have a difference of opinion on what constitutes relevant content, then, because I don't considering being able to do 75-99 content as being "okay."

Delve 1, Delve 2, Skirm to a lesser Extent, High Level Battlefields - all relevant endgame

Walk of the Echoes, Dynamis, Salvage.. all level 99 stuff that anyone can do. It's not the same. If I went on anything I wouldn't be sacrificing that much, unlike the endgame content, where yeah if I took pup/dnc/thf over RNG/SAM I'd be sacrificing a hell of a lot. Maybe not in Delve 1, but Delve 1 is easier.

You can do dyna on SAM/DNC if you want, but most ppl would rather do it on THF. It's still the most efficient job for dyna, which is something almost every lsmate/friend spend time on.

As stated before, I don't view FFXI as "raids only" MMO, I don't like those type of MMO anyways, never really get into WoW/ARR. It doesn't matter if the content is 10 years old or 1 month old. As long as there's a reason to do it, it's "relevant content" to me. Having more jobs in FFXI makes ppl's live easier for variety of content, on the same time it's also harder to gear all, and vice versa. IMO that's what makes FFXI interesting.

This game is never about "raid only" with every job equal with 1 job geared. If this isn't your cup of tea you should have quit years ago. One of the above post saying he/she wants to quit cuz of job balance issue is something beyond my comprehension. If anything current job balance is much, MUCH better than abyssea era thanks to better content diversity. If someone isn't happy with the balance they should have quit years ago.

You can tell Dev specifically want ppl to lv multiple jobs by the way they design delve: Piercing is OP in ceizak but weak in yorcia. In kamir you need all types of dmg, but slashing doesn't seem to work well(not 100% sure on this). This is more than just SAM being OP DD, but they purposely make it so you need different jobs to do all zones also.

[Mitruya]

Just for clarification's sake, I do like playing multiple jobs. It just seemed like I picked all the wrong ones to focus on.
And I don't particularly enjoy COR because I feel forced to play it and I don't think I'm very good at it.
I've also experienced a lot of "buy a PC and dualbox," "go solo it with your pet job," and now "go solo it with Trusts," and that is just not always possible for every single content, nor is it very fun or encouraging in an MMO to have to spend so much time alone regardless of job choice.

[Balloon]

We run Ceizak with SAMs that spam Apex Arrow. It's hardly a point towards job diversity when you can run it with the same jobs.

Regardless of how you view FFXI when all they release is content that favours x jobs then it is focused on battle content, and it's silly to point to content that is years old to say that there isn't an inbalance in the job system. It's like you're saying THF can solo dynamis slightly better so that makes up for all the other situations where it's not really used. PUP can.. do what better? When you create content that requires jobs that do a certain thing then you can't be surprised when people want to actually use some of the other jobs to do it.

It does matter if content is 10 years old. It really, really does. Because MMOs stay alive because of the influx of new interesting content. If you're going to create a job system you need to ensure that those jobs are usable in a vast majority of it, and not just usable because of the fact that older content is much easier now.

So great, someone will accept me going on pup to vw because in the grand scheme of things vw is easy enough so that it doesn't matter. Maybe after 12 years people want to see that status quo shaken up a bit, and having some jobs break out of their confined, only good for solo roles would be part of that. I don't understand people who don't want the game to be slightly more balanced in favour of allowing more jobs to do content. It's in their own best interest. You could still do content on the jobs now, but it'd be more viable to do it on others. Less shouting. More doing. The job system champions diversity, the content does not.

Answer me this.. What would really be different about the current game if some of the jobs were removed? What's the point of them? Without DNC PUP BST RUN RDM NIN DRG, apart from subjob choices, the game would play nigh identical to what it does today.

Also "If you don't like the status quo you should quit." Is the worst argument for anything. First, it overlooks the fact that there's plenty in this game I actually do enjoy. Secondly, it just scoffs at the idea of change being possible. That opinion alone is the most infuriating thing about this debate.

[Olor]

I don't understand people who don't want the game to be slightly more balanced in favour of allowing more jobs to do content. It's in their own best interest. You could still do content on the jobs now, but it'd be more viable to do it on others. Less shouting. More doing. The job system champions diversity, the content does not.


Yeah, I really don't understand why the devs are being so stubborn about this. I don't want every job to be identical - but I DO want every job to be able to fill it's role adequately. I see they are trying to make GEO more in line with BRD - and as a BRD who hasn't even unlocked GEO I totally support that! Why can't they do more for DDs? Most of the jobs in the game are expected to fill DD roles. They really need to stop with this nonsense of pretending that the tiny bit of utility that light DD jobs and pet jobs have can outweigh their massive loss of DPS. Every DD regardless of "utility" should be within 90% of the strongest DD. I'd be fine if WAR, MNK, SAM, are "100s" and BST was a "90" - fine. That kind of gap can be filled... but if BST is a 60 or a 70, it's never going to be worth bringing a BST - EVER.

Pets just aren't that big of a utility - they are mostly a drag - even more so when they can't even hit anything tough when you're using acc food etc. They lose out on all buffs meaning that a BST's effective buff potency is much lower than other DDs... not reasonable.

[newmonkey]

Bst isn't supposed to come close to a Sam though Olor so i suggest you deal with it.

[Balloon]

Yeah, just accept the fact that beastmaster was supposed to be a job that was terrible. Don't complain about in-balances in the game. Just level SAM, like everyone else! /s[arcasm.]

[Mizuno]

Honestly though Balloon/Monkey, she shouldn't be forced to level it if she doesn't want to. The pet community has gotten completely shit on for a while, I sometimes don't see any dragoons on Ragnarok anymore. Why? Because it's not an optimal job for most relevant content.

However, at least Dragoon can compete in DD department to an extent. What does BST have? Nothing, their pets are unable to contend in DD, and any items that boost the pet, make the master wanting more for themselves. That's not how it should be, period.

BLU has plenty of power if played properly, I've out parsed DRK, MNK, WAR, and even a BLM. It is not that hard to do, it just takes timing and most importantly MP management.

However, BST doesn't have this, they got....some axes....Farsha....Guttler....the mythic I can't remember....and a few other options. But these don't add anything to the pet, and this that's always a problem.

The sheer favoritism of some jobs needs to stop, and discouraging members of the game from playing what they want to play is just ugh...I won't allow anyone to tell me how to play, especially if my runs end up with more success than an organized linkshell.

[Balloon]

/s. Look at the vast majority of my other posts on this thread. I was being incredibly sarcastic.

Plus, pup is my favourite job. Favourite, terrible job.

[Afania]

We run Ceizak with SAMs that spam Apex Arrow. It's hardly a point towards job diversity when you can run it with the same jobs.


Back in 2013/8 ppl rarely use SAM though, the most popular job at that time was RNG BLU THF DRG. Either way it's irrelevant to the argument.



Regardless of how you view FFXI when all they release is content that favours x jobs then it is focused on battle content, and it's silly to point to content that is years old to say that there isn't an inbalance in the job system. It's like you're saying THF can solo dynamis slightly better so that makes up for all the other situations where it's not really used. PUP can.. do what better? When you create content that requires jobs that do a certain thing then you can't be surprised when people want to actually use some of the other jobs to do it.

It does matter if content is 10 years old. It really, really does. Because MMOs stay alive because of the influx of new interesting content. If you're going to create a job system you need to ensure that those jobs are usable in a vast majority of it, and not just usable because of the fact that older content is much easier now.


I think after pages of pages of argument we still aren't on the same page - -

Can you please answer the below question first:

1. Why's lv 75 era content irrelevant when most players still spend majority of time in it?

2. Why's soloing dyna on SAM or MNK with slightly less gil farm efficiency than THF, is not the same as doing delve on THF with slightly less plasm farm efficiency than SAM or MNK?

You keep insisting on "old content is pointless because I can do old content on any job", so you'd rather solo dyna on MNK or SAM/DNC and make less gil/hr?

But when I said "you can do delve with THF BLU PUP with more than acceptable kill speed", my point was dismissed because apparently a pt with THF PUP BST is beyond terrible, really? You have 45 min in yorcia, I fail to see what's wrong with THF PUP BST when you have more than enough time to kill mobs?

When I argue that THF has better efficiency than SAM in dyna, my point was dismissed, when I argue that THF BLU PUP can clear delve just fine(including yorcia), just not at max efficiency, my point was dismissed again.

Seems double standard to me. You can dismiss my point about THF> DD in dyna because you can do dyna on any job, but when I said you can do delve with any job as well my point was dismissed again. Every argument I had was dismissed for completely opposite reason, lol.

If "THF is useless because I can do dyna on any job, just not at max efficiency" was a legit argument you can use, by same standard I can also say you can do delve on any job, just not at max efficiency.

I don't think you can compare FFXI with "other MMO". Most other MMO are raid only MMO, any content that's not the highest tier raid are irrelevant. On the other hand, vast majority of player don't spend most of their time doing raid in FFXI. What's the point to compare a MMO with every player rushing to endgame and skip everything for higher tier content with FFXI, which has players doing dyna/VW/salvage most of their time?





I don't understand people who don't want the game to be slightly more balanced in favour of allowing more jobs to do content.

Because I think upping the dmg of hybrid job so they can function as DD job is a lazy design direction. Hybrid job should have hybrid job's strength and weakness, they shouldn't be the same as DD job. If I want to play jobs that deals massive dmg, I'd lv SAM, instead of crying about my BLU isn't doing the same dmg as SAM.

I want my BLU to be more useful, yes. But I want it to shine in other content that's not delve. I'd rather want SE to create more content so other jobs can shine, instead of just upping the job's output to be equal to SAM and tell me "Ok, we're done with the job balance! Enjoy your BLU now!" It's a lazy and cheap way to balance jobs, nothing more and nothing less.

I can accept DRK WAR DRG get a dmg increase since they're DD jobs so they're supposed to match SAM's output, but BLU THF BST DNC PUP and such need something different, not SAM No.2. I love hybrid jobs in all MMO, and I don't want them to function as a pure dmg dealer. Asking the dev to adjust hybrid jobs by increasing their dmg to match the real DD means the dev won't focus on creating the unique strength of hybrid jobs anymore.

Your argument about jobs is only valid in games without job change button. It doesn't take long gear up a job. Further more, if everyone can just use 1 job, what's the point to lv up 2nd job or 3rd job? X job being more useful in certain situation is also a good incentive for ppl to try different jobs.





Answer me this.. What would really be different about the current game if some of the jobs were removed? What's the point of them? Without DNC PUP BST RUN RDM NIN DRG, apart from subjob choices, the game would play nigh identical to what it does today.


Not sure what's the real question here. Of course DNC and RDM are different. So does RUN NIN BST PUP.




Also "If you don't like the status quo you should quit." Is the worst argument for anything. First, it overlooks the fact that there's plenty in this game I actually do enjoy. Secondly, it just scoffs at the idea of change being possible. That opinion alone is the most infuriating thing about this debate.

This isn't the worst argument on a MMO game forum, it's a legit argument.

Every game has different target audience, every game has different design goals. It is not possible to satisfy every player on earth. In order for certain design goals to work, you do need to give up on certain target audience because it's not realistic to target toward everyone on earth.

If the game's design goal isn't what you're looking for, what else do you expect? You either deal with it or quit.

What's the point to change the game's design goal? There are no "better" design goals, only "different" design goals. FFXI with more than 10 jobs having equal output isn't "better" FFXI, just "different" FFXI. By changing the core design philosophy of the game, you may attract new target audience, but you may lose old ones. In a game that's over 10 year old, it's not logical to change the design philosophy drastically....look at what happened in 2013 after R/M/E change.

One of the reason why I enjoy FFXI is because this game isn't highest tier raid only, and jobs aren't pigenon hole into tank/healer/DPS. I liked the fact that ppl still need to spend time in content that's 5 or 10 years old because it's more fun than doing 3 same raid all the time. I also like the fact that jobs like THF BLU RUN is slightly better than SAM for soloing, doing dyna, soloing PW and such, I'm perfectly fine with SAM parse top in yorcia. If I want to parse top I can just lv SAM, which takes less than 3 weeks to collect gear anyways. I'd love to have THF BLU RUN able to do something unique and different from SAM in none delve content, if dev can do that I'd be happy.

But I don't want dev just increase the above job's DPS and tell me "Look, here's the job balance you want, we fixed it. Now you can get a pt invite in yorcia!" I don't want a dps increase so I can do yorcia on BLU and pretend I'm a mini SAM. I want dev to create a situation that BLU excel at, and it's not melee/TP/WS see who parse top.

wall of text summarize:

Dev specifically stated their design goal was to make every job has a use in different situation, that you must lv and gear multiple jobs to get everything done. Which is also the opposite design direction "1 job can do all content" from FFXIV.

I support FFXI's design direction, I want dev to enhance it and stick with it. I don't want every job to be SAM No.2, I don't want everyone to play 1 job and stick with 1 job only. If certain jobs are useless, dev should create more situation that favors it or give it some unique advantage, instead of directly increasing the dmg.

I don't want the design goal to change because that's why I like FFXI.

[Afania]

Honestly though Balloon/Monkey, she shouldn't be forced to level it if she doesn't want to. The pet community has gotten completely shit on for a while, I sometimes don't see any dragoons on Ragnarok anymore. Why? Because it's not an optimal job for most relevant content.


DRG isn't a pet job due to the job mechanic, it's a DD job. It does need output increase because it's DD job.

Other pet jobs need some advantage DD job does not have though, but stop asking SE to turn pet jobs into DD. As previously stated, it's a cheap and lazy way to adjust jobs and that killed the job diversity.

IMO the best way to adjust pet jobs is to increase the hateless output without being in AoE. If ppl can do AA VD with 6 pet jobs and get equal or better kill speed than PLD+2 RNG setup, IMO it's an unique advantage that DD job does not have, thus makes it different.

Making pet jobs do same melee/WS dmg as SAM is a bad idea though. Just go lv SAM if you enjoy doing dmg in a melee zerg situation, why play pet job if you like melee zerg in yorcia?

[Balloon]

You're right. We're still on the same page. So I give up arguing with you. It's clear we have a difference in opinion and I won't go on record saying that mine is any less or more valid than yours. Perhaps this is an odd preface if I'm going to go ahead and rebut some of the things you've said, but whatever.

I think Old Content is irrelevant because having a niche doing content released years ago, content done a thousand times doesn't really make me super stoked anymore. I want to play PUP in other stuff. I want to play PUP at all. I go to Salvage on pup, but there's no real reason to.

Scenarios where pup is more useful than other jobs aren't going to be created, and so even if your idea was better it ain't happening. But I disagree with that. Because what does PUP do in party content? It hits shit for damage. As does BST. As does Sam. They are not as different as you keep proclaiming them to be. You can't have the same design goals from a game where 75 was the cap when your game is now ilvl 119 and radically different. Guess what? ilvl alone proves that they've radically changed their design philosophy. Having pup be able to go to certain content would change LITERALLY nothing about how the game is played beyond allowing other jobs to actually do shit. What would content that favour pet jobs even look like? I mean.. We all just hit shit for damage.

The question was how would the game be different without those jobs? It wouldn't. At all. It'd be the same game because those jobs are functionally useless.

You missed the point again. I do enjoy the game, I wish it was better, so I complain about things. The whole stfu and quit then argument is that of a 5 year old.

If you don't think FFXI is a game about battle content, or 'raid content' then I question what game you are playing. the whole point of ilvl stuff is that there's vertical progression. We do content to get gear to do more content.

Dynamis is boring as shit, Salvage isn't challenging, Soloing PW is something most jobs can't do - I want to be able to go to CHALLENGING content on other jobs.

Old content isn't pointless because I can do it on any job, old content is pointless because it provides nothing but a mediocre slog in order to gear yourself for HIGHER content. It's pointless because it's easy. I want to do harder shit.

Anyway, I'm sick of saying the exact same thing, clearly we aren't going to change each others mind.

A game with a job system shouldn't have so many functionally useless jobs. That's my problem.

[WoW]

Well, the known roles of XI are tank, healer, support, and dd; pet jobs will need to fill one of those voids. Bst is not a healer nor support; can tank easier crap, but is a sub-par dd. SE already stated that pet jobs will receive enhanced dd capabilities (Although I am not buying it), hence they are well within their right to ask for SE for dd enhancements. The playerbase wants it and SE intents on doing it; according to the last pet job statement.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/41383-Solo-Accomplishments-Party-Barriers-and-Enhancing-the-Community?p=513076&viewfull=1#post513076

[Balloon]

DRG isn't a pet job due to the job mechanic, it's a DD job. It does need output increase because it's DD job.

Other pet jobs need some advantage DD job does not have though, but stop asking SE to turn pet jobs into DD. As previously stated, it's a cheap and lazy way to adjust jobs and that killed the job diversity.

IMO the best way to adjust pet jobs is to increase the hateless output without being in AoE. If ppl can do AA VD with 6 pet jobs and get equal or better kill speed than PLD+2 RNG setup, IMO it's an unique advantage that DD job does not have, thus makes it different.

Making pet jobs do same melee/WS dmg as SAM is a bad idea though. Just go lv SAM if you enjoy doing dmg in a melee zerg situation, why play pet job if you like melee zerg in yorcia?

Pet jobs are DDs. They deal damage. That's their function. I don't want a puppetmaster to string up pummels that do the same damage as a SAM. But me and a pet should be similar in damage to most DDs. This is something Square have said too. But keep arguing that pet jobs aren't DDs, but some weird.. I don't know what.

[WoW]

Pet jobs are DDs. They deal damage. That's their function. I don't want a puppetmaster to string up pummels that do the same damage as a SAM. But me and a pet should be similar in damage to most DDs. This is something Square have said too. But keep arguing that pet jobs aren't DDs, but some weird.. I don't know what.

^^Basically.

[Balloon]

And I agree that other jobs need buffing too. DRG WAR DNC PUP BST RUN PLD SMN NIN etc etc.

I can't even think of a scenario where NIN could do tank something better than a RUN/NIN PLD/NIN. It can't really DD well. It's a weird non-job. But somehow that's okay? Why can't SE go back to the drawing board with some jobs, it's clear they aren't working well.

Another question: What do you think would actually change negatively about the game if some other jobs became more viable. Not as good as the "Pure" DDs like SAM WAR etc, but more viable? If someone could set up a run on their puppetmaster that they spent lots of gil and time gearing and not be facing ridicule? How would that be a bad thing?

I'd love to see the responses from a good 90% of the community if the next update was the following:

*We have released content specifically catered to pet jobs. It provides ilvl119 gear that is better than some of the alternatives. In order to do this you will have to have leveled and geared a job that only 2-3% of the playerbase have.

*This gear is better for all jobs, including some of the more popular jobs. You will have to level PUP and BST to get it.

*Because our development team consists of 5 people, there will be no other content released this month.

If I only had a puppetmaster, which I don't because I do enjoy other jobs, I'd have never gotten a divinator.

[Mitruya]

By god they need to extend the maneuver duration, I am doing nothing but constantly reapplying..... no weapon skilling, low dmg output, just constant JA JA JA....

[Afania]

Pet jobs are DDs. They deal damage. That's their function. I don't want a puppetmaster to string up pummels that do the same damage as a SAM. But me and a pet should be similar in damage to most DDs. This is something Square have said too. But keep arguing that pet jobs aren't DDs, but some weird.. I don't know what.

To clarify: When I said DD I mean WAR DRK MNK SAM DRG, jobs that's designed to deal dmg but without hybrid ability(at least not without changing SJ) to perform something else. It's more of a term I use to describe those jobs.

If PUP+pet doing same dmg as SAM in a yorcia melee zerg situation is what you want, what's the real reason to play PUP instead of SAM? I really don't get it.

If I lv pet jobs I'd want to do something SAM can't do, such as killing VD with 6 pets job faster than 2 RNG. Since RNG or melee setup needs PLD and healer, pet job setup doesn't.

Honestly, I really don't understand what's so fun about lving a pet job just to do melee zerg content and engage TP WS with your pet. Even if PUP can do the same dmg as SAM in such situation, it doesn't sound fun at all.

It's fact that pet jobs are DD deal dmg with pets, but with a pet mechanic coming into play, there are ways to make it deal dmg different from melee engage TP WS with WHM spamming curaga.




I think Old Content is irrelevant because having a niche doing content released years ago, content done a thousand times doesn't really make me super stoked anymore. I want to play PUP in other stuff. I want to play PUP at all. I go to Salvage on pup, but there's no real reason to.


It doesn't matter if soloing dyna make you super stoked or not. It's still part of the game that a lot of ppl spend majority of time on. Also since I view FFXI as a virtual life MMO instead of raid focus MMO providing instant gratification, dyna is just part of your life in FFXI that's not supposed to be super exciting raid, but a way to make gil.



But I disagree with that. Because what does PUP do in party content? It hits shit for damage. As does BST. As does Sam. They are not as different as you keep proclaiming them to be. You can't have the same design goals from a game where 75 was the cap when your game is now ilvl 119 and radically different. Guess what? ilvl alone proves that they've radically changed their design philosophy.

I'm not sure if "lv 119 is different from 75" is a legit argument or not. The game used to be lv 50, then slowly increase the cap to 75. Lv 119 is pretty much the same.

There are certain game mechanics that worked in early lv that doesn't work in ILV119. For example, multiple DD doing SC and time it worked earlier but it doesn't work as well today due to faster TP speed.

However, most of the design goals still exist in today's FFXI. Long term goals still exist, gear swap still exist, not focusing on 3 highest tier raid is still the same as lv 75. I'm not sure if "it's ilv 119 now" is a legit argument here.



Having pup be able to go to certain content would change LITERALLY nothing about how the game is played beyond allowing other jobs to actually do shit. What would content that favour pet jobs even look like? I mean.. We all just hit shit for damage.


I said over, and over, and over again. PUP can do delve just fine, I've done it several times

I still want PUP to do something SAM MNK can't do though.



The question was how would the game be different without those jobs? It wouldn't. At all. It'd be the same game because those jobs are functionally useless.


This is incorrect, I'm not sure why you insist X job are functionally useless even though I listed many example of situation they shine. It seems that you don't listen to other's opinion, and just go on to present your opinion which is clearly biased.

RDM: After recent RDM adjustment without doubt it's one of the most game changing mage in this game thanks to eva down, haste2 and flurry2. RDM is a slightly better mage than WHM in CP pt thanks to haste 2. Using a RDM in RNG setup is a bigger increase than using a WHM with eva down and flurry. If you don't have a COR in pt then dia3 is great. The fact that you said RDM is functionally useless is enough for me not to take your posts seriously. It's like saying BRD or WHM is useless.

NIN: Top DD in D/VD in AA battle, enough said. It's better than MNK in those situations if you're not using RNG setup.

RUN: It can tank most content just fine, but it's more game changing in solo situations(can solo PW for gil) and it's often wanted in shadowlord BC.

Both RUN and NIN has a niche use that shine in certain situation.

DNC: It's only "useless" because COR can do the job of DNC. If there are no COR in pt, DNC is the best alternative in a MNK setup due to samba and steps.

It's not hard to fix DNC by double or triple the potency of steps IMO.

DRG: Need a dmg increase, I agree.

BST and PUP: Need a pet game mechanic revamp basically. I still disagree with turning pet jobs into SAM.

Out of all the jobs you listed, only DRG BST and PUP are seriously behind. DNC NIN and RUN are situationally useful and RDM is VERY useful.

Again, I'm sick and tire of ppl using argument about X job being useless then proceed to ignore the obvious game mechanics that favor them.

It's totally fine to ask for a job buff, but it's not fine to twist the fact or ignore them to support your opinion.




If you don't think FFXI is a game about battle content, or 'raid content' then I question what game you are playing. the whole point of ilvl stuff is that there's vertical progression. We do content to get gear to do more content.


Based on the fact that most players don't do "raid content" 24/7, and the fact that I still use NNI/Abyssea/lv 75 gears(for real), I think I'm the one who should question what game you're playing. FFXI is never about doing content to get gear to do more content, it's about getting sidegrades and long term goal.

[Afania]

Old content isn't pointless because I can do it on any job, old content is pointless because it provides nothing but a mediocre slog in order to gear yourself for HIGHER content. It's pointless because it's easy. I want to do harder shit.


This is not how FFXI works. Most ppl spend time to build a relic or Mythic actually has all the delve2 clear. They clear delve1/2, get a weapon drop, got bored in this game so they go to dyna/salvage to build R/E/M, after it's done they proceed to build next R/E/M because they're bored. A lot of ppl actually clear delve1/2 before considering a R/M/E since delve 1/2 is faster to get clear, R/M/E takes longer.

Most of the ilv119 weapons are perfectly capable of clearing the highest raid content, idk ANYONE who build R/M/E to do next tier of raid because they can't clear delve without R/M/E. Most ppl build R/M/E because, they're bored and want some accomplishment.

R/M/E is never a mediocre slog to gear yourself for next tier of raid content, it's a long term goal accomplishment, nothing more and nothing less.

Clearly you're playing a different game, your POV about FFXI is....so different from reality.

[Afania]

I can't even think of a scenario where NIN could do something better than a RUN/NIN PLD/NIN. It can't really DD well. It's a weird non-job. But somehow that's okay? Why can't SE go back to the drawing board with some jobs, it's clear they aren't working well.


NIN is a better DD than MNK on AA D/VD due to more shadows(so less time spent on casting shadows) and ability to /WAR and still get shadows. I highly doubt none ergon weapon RUN/NIN can outparse NIN/WAR.

Even ergon weapon RUN/NIN is questionable(have to double check spreadsheet). NIN has offensive JA AND /WAR, RUN has none except lunge/swipe.

The fact that you listed PLD/NIN made me.....not wanting to take your opinion seriously again >.> I haven't see PLD/NIN for ages >.>

If you want to argue about X job being useless, at least do some research about the job mechanics >.> Your argument about RDM being completely useless is >.> You argument are mostly very different from reality, the only thing you get it right is PUP and BST usually don't outparse SAM.

[Balloon]

The fact that you listed PLD/NIN made me.....not wanting to take your opinion seriously again >.> I haven't see PLD/NIN for ages >.>


...I wasn't saying PLD/NIN was viable or even used, I'm saying that NIN as a tank has no tools that aren't available via subjob, despite it constantly being called a tank by the developers. I think I've been very, very polite during this. I haven't attacked you personally or anything similar, so I'd appreciate it if the same consideration was taken by you.

Again, I play the game, I wasn't saying PLD/NIN is used, nor RUN/NIN.

So I guess to rephrase: If there was a scenario where NIN shadow tanking was better than the way Paladin and Run currently tanked, I'd see no reason why a NIN would be better even in that scenario. I thought that was obvious via context, I mean, I listed tank jobs so I don't mean as a dd.

And like you've already said, I'm tired of going around in circles. We have a difference of opinion. I'm not going to change your mind. The last 5 pages have been us reciting the exact same arguments over and over again.

Time and time again I've said I don't want PUP to be EQUAL to sam, but if they were doing the same damage... you could take either. That's the point. But I don't want that. I don't want it to be equal. Why would you take PUP over SAM if they were doing equal damage? Isn't that the same argument?

[Olor]

I'd love to see the responses from a good 90% of the community if the next update was the following:

*We have released content specifically catered to pet jobs. It provides ilvl119 gear that is better than some of the alternatives. In order to do this you will have to have leveled and geared a job that only 2-3% of the playerbase have.

*This gear is better for all jobs, including some of the more popular jobs. You will have to level PUP and BST to get it.



People would crap themselves.

Anyway, I am really mystified by this argument that PUP and BST are not DD. The game has roles. Party members are supposed to fill those roles. Guess what role BST and PUP take up in a group - DD - they CAN'T FILL any other role in ANY content that matters. Can they help a bit with some things? Well PUP can help cure a bit but BST... nope. The ONLY thing it CAN do is deal damage. There is NO OTHER ROLE for it. Since it is a sub-par damage dealer - it is not welcome in content. The end. Full stop.

[Afania]

...I wasn't saying PLD/NIN was viable or even used, I'm saying that NIN as a tank has no tools that aren't available via subjob, despite it constantly being called a tank by the developers. I think I've been very, very polite during this. I haven't attacked you personally or anything similar, so I'd appreciate it if the same consideration was taken by you.

Again, I play the game, I wasn't saying PLD/NIN is used, nor RUN/NIN.

And like you've already said, I'm tired of going around in circles.


"Not wanting to take your argument seriously" isn't a personal attack though. It's against the argument, not person. When you make argument that's obviously ignoring the game mechanic, like "RDM is functionally useless", I honestly can't counter the argument besides "I can't take your argument seriously".

That's more polite than using the word troll.

If today I pop on the forum and make a point that's so far away from reality, such as "PUP can do double amount of dmg of SAM", besides not taking it seriously what else are you gonna do?

[Balloon]

"Not wanting to take your argument seriously" isn't a personal attack though. It's against the argument, not person. When you make argument that's obviously ignoring the game mechanic, like "RDM is functionally useless", I honestly can't counter the argument besides "I can't take your argument seriously".

That's more polite than using the word troll.

If today I pop on the forum and make a point that's so far away from reality, such as "PUP can do double amount of dmg of SAM", besides not taking it seriously what else are you gonna do?

You misrepresented what I was saying. I wasn't trolling. I wasn't saying PLD/NIN has a place in endgame. I was saying that NIN has no few tools that can't be subbed to mitigate damage.

Up until a few updates ago I wouldn't say RDM was useful, either.

[Malithar]

I support FFXI's design direction, I want dev to enhance it and stick with it. I don't want every job to be SAM No.2, I don't want everyone to play 1 job and stick with 1 job only. If certain jobs are useless, dev should create more situation that favors it or give it some unique advantage, instead of directly increasing the dmg.

I don't want the design goal to change because that's why I like FFXI.

Mostly agree with Afania, would rather see diversity in the game rather than every non-mage or tank doing comparable DPS to a Sam. With that said, there's only so many situations you can create to be useful. Blu has it's utility setup fairly well, stuns, terrors, a few decent status effects, great soloing capability, etc. In that sort of frame, how do you create unique situations that only a Bst or Pup can be useful? Adds? CC them, have a DD take care of them, let them swarm the group and spam Curagas, etc. Unique effects that only they can provide that are required? Great, now we get a DD type job that does a good bit less than optimal DD in order to handle a gimmick.

So what could they do? I'd side with what's been said and make them more comparable to a DD, not the same, but closer. SE said they wished to make Pet job + pet > a pure DD. Logical, since they've gotta gear/care for themselves and their pet, and if the pet dies, they'd be back to being sub-par. Alternatively, they could just balance it out a bit, make pet job + pet < pure DD, but only at around say 90%, to account for their additional abilities when it comes to soloing, attacking 2 mobs, etc.

End of the day, a pet job still takes the role of a DD, there is no unique "hybrid" slot when it comes to parties. Sure, you may slot in a Dnc, Rdm, Blu, Thf, etc in order to gain something from them for a specific fight (Haste Samba to cap delay reduction/backup Waltzes/Steps, Haste/Flurry/Distract/Frazzle II, stuns/terrors, TH respectively), but they're still capable of respectable DDing, but Bst and Pup bring nothing of this sort to a party. For all intents and purposes, they are a DD job, and they fail to reach the standards that players have come to expect of a DD job.

[Afania]

Anyway, I am really mystified by this argument that PUP and BST are not DD. The game has roles. Party members are supposed to fill those roles. Guess what role BST and PUP take up in a group - DD - they CAN'T FILL any other role in ANY content that matters. Can they help a bit with some things? Well PUP can help cure a bit but BST... nope. The ONLY thing it CAN do is deal damage. There is NO OTHER ROLE for it. Since it is a sub-par damage dealer - it is not welcome in content. The end. Full stop.

I wasn't asking for content that SAM BRD WHM can't do, I was asking for a situation that SAM BRD WHM can still perform just fine, just less efficiency than pet jobs. Like how SAM can't farm dyna more efficient than THF.

By your logic hybrid job/jack of all trade jobs shouldn't exist in MMO, ever. Because there won't be a real reason to create a hybrid job.

Although it's often a fact that hybrid classes suffer in most MMO, being a big fan of hybrid jobs in MMO, I believe it's dev's job to create a unique function for hybrid jobs, instead of pigeonhole every class and turn them into 1 role only.

Since FFXI isn't a raid only MMO, I think FFXI has plenty of opportunity to do that.

[Balloon]

Mostly agree with Afania, would rather see diversity in the game rather than every non-mage or tank doing comparable DPS to a Sam. With that said, there's only so many situations you can create to be useful. Blu has it's utility setup fairly well, stuns, terrors, a few decent status effects, great soloing capability, etc. In that sort of frame, how do you create unique situations that only a Bst or Pup can be useful? Adds? CC them, have a DD take care of them, let them swarm the group and spam Curagas, etc. Unique effects that only they can provide that are required? Great, now we get a DD type job that does a good bit less than optimal DD in order to handle a gimmick.

So what could they do? I'd side with what's been said and make them more comparable to a DD, not the same, but closer. SE said they wished to make Pet job + pet > a pure DD. Logical, since they've gotta gear/care for themselves and their pet, and if the pet dies, they'd be back to being sub-par. Alternatively, they could just balance it out a bit, make pet job + pet < pure DD, but only at around say 90%, to account for their additional abilities when it comes to soloing, attacking 2 mobs, etc.

End of the day, a pet job still takes the role of a DD, there is no unique "hybrid" slot when it comes to parties. Sure, you may slot in a Dnc, Rdm, Blu, Thf, etc in order to gain something from them for a specific fight (Haste Samba to cap delay reduction/backup Waltzes/Steps, Haste/Flurry/Distract/Frazzle II, stuns/terrors, TH respectively), but they're still capable of respectable DDing, but Bst and Pup bring nothing of this sort to a party. For all intents and purposes, they are a DD job, and they fail to reach the standards that players have come to expect of a DD job.

This is what I've been saying, I don't really think that 'hybrid' jobs serve a purpose in a game that has little content to support them. Rather than have content that shoe horns them in I'd rather see a move towards content that can be done by everyone. I don't want most of those jobs to supersede the 'pure' dd classes, but I want it so that if I were to go on puppetmaster, I wouldn't be performing so much worse than the rest. I wouldn't even mind if shouts remained the same, because at least then I could set my own up with the lesser used jobs.

I've loved to see them address the disparity between Bards and other buffers, I feel that's a good move in the right direction.

[Afania]

Blu has it's utility setup fairly well, stuns, terrors, a few decent status effects, great soloing capability, etc. In that sort of frame, how do you create unique situations that only a Bst or Pup can be useful? Adds? CC them, have a DD take care of them, let them swarm the group and spam Curagas, etc. Unique effects that only they can provide that are required? Great, now we get a DD type job that does a good bit less than optimal DD in order to handle a gimmick.

So what could they do? I'd side with what's been said and make them more comparable to a DD, not the same, but closer. SE said they wished to make Pet job + pet > a pure DD. Logical, since they've gotta gear/care for themselves and their pet, and if the pet dies, they'd be back to being sub-par. Alternatively, they could just balance it out a bit, make pet job + pet < pure DD, but only at around say 90%, to account for their additional abilities when it comes to soloing, attacking 2 mobs, etc.

End of the day, a pet job still takes the role of a DD, there is no unique "hybrid" slot when it comes to parties. Sure, you may slot in a Dnc, Rdm, Blu, Thf, etc in order to gain something from them for a specific fight (Haste Samba to cap delay reduction/backup Waltzes/Steps, Haste/Flurry/Distract/Frazzle II, stuns/terrors, TH respectively), but they're still capable of respectable DDing, but Bst and Pup bring nothing of this sort to a party. For all intents and purposes, they are a DD job, and they fail to reach the standards that players have come to expect of a DD job.

IMO delve2 NM can't be terrored is a wrong decision :( BLU could have been a lot more useful with terror on T5 and erasega on Wopket. Elitists till gonna SAM all the way but it's a perfect alternative for pt with weaker support. Even without recent spell adjustment BLU is still pretty good in foret if you go with PUG WHM, terror and erasga on megaboss can help a lot.

I'm not sure if we should classify hybrid jobs like THF, DNC, BLU, COR, SCH, RDM and GEO into DD or not. Technically any job that can do dmg is DD, but if those jobs are classified as DD then we'd fall in the situation Olor talked about: It's a job that do less dmg than SAM so it's not welcomed.

Pretty much all the above job has a use with their current output though, except DNC thanks to COR/DNC being a superior alternative.



This is what I've been saying, I don't really think that 'hybrid' jobs serve a purpose in a game that has little content to support them. Rather than have content that shoe horns them in I'd rather see a move towards content that can be done by everyone. I don't want most of those jobs to supersede the 'pure' dd classes, but I want it so that if I were to go on puppetmaster, I wouldn't be performing so much worse than the rest. I wouldn't even mind if shouts remained the same, because at least then I could set my own up with the lesser used jobs.

I've loved to see them address the disparity between Bards and other buffers, I feel that's a good move in the right direction.

If a game with no hybrid job is what I want to play I wouldn't quit FFXIV year ago lol.

Edit: BST SMN worked as CC job/hateless DD job years ago, it's just not much to CC atm. I remember my LS had SMN and BST for lv 75 Odin. Ppl used to use PUP to kite nuke solo, which is something only PUP and COR can do, but PUP can do it better than COR.

[Teraniku]

Rangers are the most broken job in the game at the minute. That's not really even talking about rangers, though, that's an enmity issue.

Let's not nerf, let's just actually get some balance in there. I remember when every other word was balance.

I remember the days when RNG rivaled BLM in damage and was a viable replacement for one...

[WoW]

Some/most may disagree with this, but I am not going to agrue about it, just my opinion; but hopefully, in the near future, this tank, healer, blah blah will be obsolete. Find new ways for players to interact with one another; aka, play how you what to. Imo, this is part of the problem; healer, dps, tank, and some jobs that are caught in between.

[elqplau]

Rangers are the most broken job in the game at the minute. That's not really even talking about rangers, though, that's an enmity issue.

Let's not nerf, let's just actually get some balance in there. I remember when every other word was balance.

Lol most broken lmao..
RDM as a starter job was your PLD now its less than any job in the game how bout unnerphing RDM to be as it was in 2003

[Balloon]

Lol most broken lmao..
RDM as a starter job was your PLD now its less than any job in the game how bout unnerphing RDM to be as it was in 2003

I wasn't saying it was underwhelming or bad. I meant the enmity generation of ranger is insanely low. It was a poor choice of words, and perhaps a bit hyperbolic.

[Camiie]

You are implicitly telling other players how to run their events. Go pound sand. If you want to bring your Beastmaster to something, run your own event. I have Monk and Samurai, but I usually don't use them unless I'm running the event. It's usually WHM or BRD or BLM.

Either level the desired job to get invites without dealing with the stresses of running events, or level the job you want and deal with the stress. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If you want less stress then wouldn't you be better off if you could just take any DD, healer, support or tank and get the job done instead of having to worry about the right one being available?

Also you seem to be encouraging people to just level the flavor of the month. Is that really the game we want?

[Afania]

Also you seem to be encouraging people to just level the flavor of the month. Is that really the game we want?

What's wrong with that in a game with a job change system? The game's still perfectly beatable with none bandwagon jobs, but ppl just refuse to try.

[Camiie]

What's wrong with that in a game with a job change system? The game's still perfectly beatable with none bandwagon jobs, but ppl just refuse to try.

So the time, effort, and love (for lack of a better word) people put into a job shouldn't matter? Everything should be determined by what the current content favors? A job is just another piece of gear to be swapped in and out at the press of a button? As hardcore as you are about specialization this is the last stance I expected you to take.

[Karbuncle]

So the time, effort, and love (for lack of a better word) people put into a job shouldn't matter? Everything should be determined by what the current content favors? A job is just another piece of gear to be swapped in and out at the press of a button? As hardcore as you are about specialization this is the last stance I expected you to take.

Pretty much yah, This is an MMO, not a fairytalehappyendingRPg. Unless you just make every job undistinguishable from the other job by means of nerfing everything unique about them down to a code of basic damage (FFXIV), there's no way to perfectly balance 22 jobs, there just isn't, especially not in a way to make them all useful all the time for all events.

And its not entirely Squares fault here, a lot of these events can be done without bandwagon jobs, but the reality is people want efficiency, you may love playing DRg or BST or something, but other people love getting sh*t done and finishing quicker. I personally love THF, its my favorite RPG job in any game, and I rarely get to play it in XI, it doesn't make me love the job any less, I just do what I can on it (Solo old content like Salvage II or Dynamis). This game isn't about "I WANNA PLAY MY JOB! WAAAAH", frankly SE has come out and stated they have no intent to make content clearable by any and all job combinations, and thats the smartest thing they've done in my eyes. They know people will go for 1 or 2 strategies, throw RNGs at it or throw DD's at it.

There are some jobs I think need updating, but you're playing an MMO lady, your favorite job is not always going to be wanted in certain events, and sometimes very few at all, Especially in an MMO where all you need to do to switch jobs is walk into your mog house and cycle through a menu. I'm sorry if this is not what you people want to here, but this is what an MMO is, I for one will take having to play THF in mostly old content over having every job being a bland carbon copy of eachother with the only differences being the name of their abilities and the stat mod that goes into them.

Nerfing MNK or SAM won't help, the next bandwagon job will be found and if you're not that you're not playing, this is the fault of the community most of all, not the developers, we cannot deny SAM and MNK are powerful, but again, nerfing those don't mean you'll be desired on any job you wanna play, it just means the next bandwagon job will pop up, period. Its irrational and stupid to think otherwise.

Again, I'm sorry, this game has a job change system, if you feel you only want to level one job cause its your 'FAVVY', you have no one but yourself to blame when your job isn't wanted. I used to only have THF and SMN, now I have all jobs except RNG, GEO, and RUN... I don't enjoy BRD, but I enjoy doing events, so I find fun in it where I can, because I knew this coming into the game.

[Camiie]

Pretty much yah, This is an MMO, not a fairytalehappyendingRPg.

Yes it is an MMO. One important aspect of MMO development is maintaining class balance. FFXI has nothing of the sort.


Unless you just make every job undistinguishable from the other job by means of nerfing everything unique about them down to a code of basic damage (FFXIV), there's no way to perfectly balance 22 jobs, there just isn't, especially not in a way to make them all useful all the time for all events.

They don't have to be indistinguishable. They can be different from each other yet still be effective in their defined roles. To think otherwise is to lack imagination and ignore character archetypes that have existed since before the dawn of electronic gaming. The nimble rogue can make things just as dead as the hulking barbarian. He just does it in a different, but no less effective, way.

Perfect balance is impossible, I'll give you that, but they should at least strive for it rather than allowing the majority of jobs to languish in mediocrity or worse.


And its not entirely Squares fault here, a lot of these events can be done without bandwagon jobs, but the reality is people want efficiency, you may love playing DRg or BST or something, but other people love getting sh*t done and finishing quicker.

So the events can be done without bandwagon jobs, but the only way to "get shit done" is to use bandwagon jobs? I see...


I personally love THF, its my favorite RPG job in any game, and I rarely get to play it in XI, it doesn't make me love the job any less, I just do what I can on it (Solo old content like Salvage II or Dynamis).

So what's fine with you should be fine with everyone? I guess the person who wants to use his THF to stab the biggest baddest monsters in the game to death is wrong to want such things? I think he should be free to do so, while you seem to think he should be happy he's limited to years old content.


This game isn't about "I WANNA PLAY MY JOB! WAAAAH", frankly SE has come out and stated they have no intent to make content clearable by any and all job combinations, and thats the smartest thing they've done in my eyes.

So the smartest thing they've ever done is throw up their hands and admit their laziness and lack of creativity when it comes to battle content and job balance. Well I guess it is good to know one's limits.

There are some jobs I think need updating, but you're playing an MMO lady, your favorite job is not always going to be wanted in certain events, and sometimes very few at all, Especially in an MMO where all you need to do to switch jobs is walk into your mog house and cycle through a menu. I'm sorry if this is not what you people want to here, but this is what an MMO is, I for one will take having to play THF in mostly old content over having every job being a bland carbon copy of eachother with the only differences being the name of their abilities and the stat mod that goes into them.

No that's what FFXI is. Most MMOs aren't that way or at least not to that extreme. Sorry to break your illusion that the FFXI way is the common way.


Nerfing MNK or SAM won't help, the next bandwagon job will be found and if you're not that you're not playing, this is the fault of the community most of all, not the developers, we cannot deny SAM and MNK are powerful, but again, nerfing those don't mean you'll be desired on any job you wanna play, it just means the next bandwagon job will pop up, period. Its irrational and stupid to think otherwise.

Again, I'm sorry, this game has a job change system, if you feel you only want to level one job cause its your 'FAVVY', you have no one but yourself to blame when your job isn't wanted. I used to only have THF and SMN, now I have all jobs except RNG, GEO, and RUN... I don't enjoy BRD, but I enjoy doing events, so I find fun in it where I can, because I knew this coming into the game.

I don't agree with nerfing MNK or SAM either. I too have multiple jobs leveled, but I refuse to level a job I know I won't enjoy because that defeats the purpose of this being a game. I do accept the consequences of that and I'm not nearly as stupid as you want to make me out to be with your rather condescending response.

I just think it's utterly ridiculous that in a group based game so many jobs have nothing to offer a group no matter how much work is put into those jobs. Yet somehow I'm the unreasonable one for daring to think such a thing.

[Karbuncle]

Yes it is an MMO. One important aspect of MMO development is maintaining class balance. FFXI has nothing of the sort.

Most MMOs do this by blanding every class until they're distinguishable by nothing more than their clothing, yes almost all new age MMOs. This is the only way to easily "Balance" a large variety of classes. Most new MMOs also only really have to balance a handful of classes, not 22. Balancing 22 classes is not easy, and SE hasn't done a terrible job a it, Its just the community sniffs out the job that does 0.1% better overall and they use that and only that.


Perfect balance is impossible, I'll give you that, but they should at least strive for it rather than allowing the majority of jobs to languish in mediocrity or worse.

I wanna know which jobs you perceive to be in such a bad position right now if you don't mind me asking. No sarcasm here, I can think of maybe a few but I wanna know which ones you feel are in dire need of adjusting.


So the events can be done without bandwagon jobs, but the only way to "get shit done" is to use bandwagon jobs? I see...

In the players eyes? the communities eyes? yes.


So what's fine with you should be fine with everyone? I guess the person who wants to use his THF to stab the biggest baddest monsters in the game to death is wrong to want such things? I think he should be free to do so, while you seem to think he should be happy he's limited to years old content.

Nope, that part was to express how just because you or I want something, doesn't mean its the communities voice. Expressing that we are simply a small minority voicing our opinions here. That went over your head I guess.


So the smartest thing they've ever done is throw up their hands and admit their laziness and lack of creativity when it comes to battle content and job balance. Well I guess it is good to know one's limits.

You almost grasped the concept in your sarcastic second sentence there. They know their limits and they know the community, balancing all content around 22 jobs perfectly is stupid and impossible.


No that's what FFXI is. Most MMOs aren't that way or at least not to that extreme. Sorry to break your illusion that the FFXI way is the common way.

FFXI has always been different, its from an Era of time when MMOs were diverse, not WoW Clones, I personally chose to continue playing FFXI for this very reason. I like FFXI for what it is, yes it has flaws in class balancing but most jobs are balanced well, the only obtusely unbalanced one right now i think is SAM, which is leagues ahead of any other DD... and I think that could be adressed in some way.


I just think it's utterly ridiculous that in a group based game so many jobs have nothing to offer a group no matter how much work is put into those jobs. Yet somehow I'm the unreasonable one for daring to think such a thing.

I'm just saying these jobs DO offer something, its that the community has figured you DD job A offers 2% more than DD job B, so DD job B is "Useless". Its. the. Community.

Any event today can be beaten with DRG, PUP, BST, etc DD's, theres threads and forums of all pet jobs (BST, SMN, PUP) Beating Ark Angel Difficult fights... Its not impossible, the community just wants to take the "Good bandwagon" job and thats it. Plain and simple. Some jobs are lacking its true, but not enough to make them useless or unusable.

[Olor]

Balancing 22 classes is not easy, and SE hasn't done a terrible job a it, Its just the community sniffs out the job that does 0.1% better overall and they use that and only that.



Dude, if BST was 0.1% behind SAM, you'd get no arguments from me that things were close enough. Heck, like I've said over and over - if a fully buffed average BST could do 90% of the damage of a fully buffed average SAM in the same party - I'd be willing to call that close enough. That's a way bigger gap than what you're suggesting is the case here - come on, we all know that the gap is way higher - probably more like 70% at best for a fantastic BST versus an ok SAM.

Having certain jobs suck isn't variety, sorry, it just isn't. It just makes the game more samey. Never get to play on anything but the same handful of better jobs. The gaps are too big, and before you say "start your own parties" - no, just no, you look like a moron trying to start a party while playing a subpar job. You pretty much would have to have a mythic for people to even consider letting you play a job like BST in any kind of serious content. That's not variety - that's poor balancing and crummy game design.

I'm not asking for the game to be XIV. I like this game better, but I feel less and less compelled to log in when the only thing I ever get to do in groups is play bard (love bard but it's nice to switch it up). That I feel "lucky" that one of my jobs is even in demand at all when I have several, is problematic.

Increasing the strength of jobs that currently suck will just make non cookie cutter set ups more viable. I fail to see how that reduces variety.

[Vinedrai]

The main problem is, even if weaker DDs are pumped to close the gap, people would still bring what is found to be the most failproof. It won't magically turn your bst or pup or w/e into a globally acceptable DD.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the gaps are too big and they should remedy that.

[Afania]

Yes it is an MMO. One important aspect of MMO development is maintaining class balance. FFXI has nothing of the sort.


Disagree, IMO one important aspect of MMO is creating a sense of community and virtual life. I can accept certain job being less bandwagon but shines in niche situation simply because that's how rl works as well.

If this is a 2014 MMO with a burden of 100M budget, maybe I'd agree with you. But for a 12 year old MMO FFXI should be what it used to be, which is to create classes that's very, very different from each other.

In order to do so, there's no way you can perfectly balance all 22 jobs in a 6 man raid. Further more, it pretty much just tell everyone "raid or gtfo in this game" but nothing else.


So the time, effort, and love (for lack of a better word) people put into a job shouldn't matter? Everything should be determined by what the current content favors? A job is just another piece of gear to be swapped in and out at the press of a button? As hardcore as you are about specialization this is the last stance I expected you to take.

I never say it "shouldn't matter". I said you either

1) Clear the content with your fav job, which is TOTALLY VIABLE.
2) Change job.

If you pick 1), then it's not "your fav job doesn't matter". Can you please list me ONE job in this game that can't clear content???

Inb4 BST PUP can't clear delve, they totally can. When you have 45 min in delve you just can.

I'm not sure how'd "hardcore about specialization" contradict my stance, since I obviously job change in this game to get things done. For entire thread I only have 2 stances:

1) Clear the content with your fav job but give up on max efficiency.
2) Make your own pt or job change.

The issue is that you guys don't accept either 1) nor 2), you just want another solution that drastically changed dev's design direction.

FYI, for my entire life all I ever play was hybrid job. I had 2 jobs in 2009, which is BLU and COR. For past 5 years I only had 2 job until 2014, I decided to lv RUN. None of my jobs are bandwagon jobs. I don't have an issue clearing all the endgame content in past 5 years. I do almost all the endgame content and merit pt on COR in 75. I did Abyssea mostly on BLU and brew on COR. If I need something I can't proc on BLU I drag friends. I farmed gil for mythic(when alex was 15k~20k each) and lv99 empy on BLU. I did all VW on both BLU and COR, and cleared all legion hall before SoA on COR, cleared NNI on BLU. After SoA was out, I cleared 2 delve1 zone before skill update on COR, after skill update I constantly clear 18 man delve on BLU as well.

I've never buy win in my life, except a loki's kaftan which wouldn't drop.

I don't have an issue clearing any content I want with my 2 jobs, I had slightly less efficiency than MNK+WHM during abyssea era, I probably had less efficiency than PUP/THF THF/DNC DNC/THF and BST/DNC in abyssea, but it's mainly because I didn't have a TH belt.

You can probably argue that I still job change, which is correct. But I don't expect I can play through the entire game on only 1 job. I don't have an issue clearing all game content with only 2 hybrid jobs, none of them are bandwagon jobs. I don't feel the need to yell at the dev to buff my jobs so they're as bandwagon as SAM MNK BRD WHM. I'm happy with it, thus I never understand why the above post bashed hybrid job, I don't mind playing a hybrid job doing 50%~60% of SAM as long as I can accomplish something else SAM can't do. The fact that I've cleared all the content np proved that there's nothing wrong with hybrid jobs.

If you guys insist to clear everything with 1 job then I have nothing to say lol. As "hardcore" about specialization as me I still job change.

[Afania]

Dude, if BST was 0.1% behind SAM, you'd get no arguments from me that things were close enough. Heck, like I've said over and over - if a fully buffed average BST could do 90% of the damage of a fully buffed average SAM in the same party - I'd be willing to call that close enough. That's a way bigger gap than what you're suggesting is the case here - come on, we all know that the gap is way higher - probably more like 70% at best for a fantastic BST versus an ok SAM.

Having certain jobs suck isn't variety, sorry, it just isn't. It just makes the game more samey. Never get to play on anything but the same handful of better jobs. The gaps are too big, and before you say "start your own parties" - no, just no, you look like a moron trying to start a party while playing a subpar job. You pretty much would have to have a mythic for people to even consider letting you play a job like BST in any kind of serious content. That's not variety - that's poor balancing and crummy game design.

I'm not asking for the game to be XIV. I like this game better, but I feel less and less compelled to log in when the only thing I ever get to do in groups is play bard (love bard but it's nice to switch it up). That I feel "lucky" that one of my jobs is even in demand at all when I have several, is problematic.

Increasing the strength of jobs that currently suck will just make non cookie cutter set ups more viable. I fail to see how that reduces variety.

If you think the reason why you're stuck on BRD is because your jobs are too weak, then you're delusional. Even if they buff BST THF BLU to 110% of SAM, you'd still have to play BRD if you have BRD just because....someone needs to play BRD and it's usually ppl with BRD leveled.

[Afania]

So the time, effort, and love (for lack of a better word) people put into a job shouldn't matter? Everything should be determined by what the current content favors? A job is just another piece of gear to be swapped in and out at the press of a button? As hardcore as you are about specialization this is the last stance I expected you to take.

Oh and another FYI, if you think I'm advocating PUP BST remain useless then you didn't read what I wrote. I said PUP BST needs to be useful, but not in a way to make them getting the same advantage as DD.

BLU is a perfect examples of how a job that's way behind SAM in terms of dmg but still useful. Saying more dmg = more balance is one of the laziest way to balance jobs.

[Olor]

The main problem is, even if weaker DDs are pumped to close the gap, people would still bring what is found to be the most failproof. It won't magically turn your bst or pup or w/e into a desired DD.

I am under no illusions that it would change shouts - but if the gap was closed I could at least play with some friends.

[Rubicant82]

I would personally love to see other jobs on par with damage as the current "awesome" dds.
Be it a combination of pet/player dmg or spell dmg, w/e from point 0 to 100% that 100% should be relatively the same across the board as long as the player are all geared accordingly. Which is hard to see. But if you are a all 119 gear'd PUP, BST, BLU, DNC, w/e you damage output should be just as good as a 119 DD. That is balance. Now it might take a little different mechanics to get that dmg but it should be the same output in the end. Don't get me wrong I love my little SAM fudoing all the things for 4k~16k dmg but I also want to see big numbers from other jobs that are DD as well, and yes BST, PUP are suppose to be DDs.

[Mitruya]

I think when it comes down to it, many of us would just like to see a way to do more things within our linkshells/friends without shouting for 3 hours or waiting for the uber-elites who never log on anymore. It's really frustrating to have events cancelled or never get started because the ones who are online (and not afk out of boredom) are not the perfect set-up.

[Karbuncle]

Having certain jobs suck isn't variety, sorry, it just isn't. It just makes the game more samey. Never get to play on anything but the same handful of better jobs. The gaps are too big, and before you say "start your own parties" - no, just no, you look like a moron trying to start a party while playing a subpar job. You pretty much would have to have a mythic for people to even consider letting you play a job like BST in any kind of serious content. That's not variety - that's poor balancing and crummy game design.


I wanna say you took the 0.1% comment entirely too literally and shoved it so far up contexts ass that context cant even find it anymore. It made me dizzy.

Anyway, I didn't say anything about jobs sucking, never used the word "This job sucks", I'm saying not every job is in as terrible a position as some people think. BST used to have its place, as a solo/duo thing, and it can still do events like AA's just fine (hint hint did you even try to read the part where i said BST/SMN party beat AA difficults? I've even beaten the ToAU Hard mode Wivre-rider dude on Difficult with Pet jobs only)

Understandably, you probably want to do more damage? Why? If you don't do as much as SAM go away is the communities look still, and if you do end up doing as much as SAM, then what? You have an OP DD Job with a pet who can still do damage weakened by sending the pet in and be completely safe from AoEs, unlike any other DD job. BST, and all pet jobs, are tough to balance because as SE says they have disposable minions, giving them too much power means other DD jobs wont be wanted, too little and well... I think you know what happens there, you're in it.

Still I'd argue If you yourself were put together with a SAM who received good buffs, and you yourself received the same buffs + COR Pet rolls, I bet you+Your pet would come closer to that SAM than you realize. And no, I'm not talking a Mythic SAM as thats an unfair comparison unless you yourself were a Mythic wielder. Its how we play the jobs that makes them gimp, Buffs are aimed toward player DD, but there are pet DD buffs.

Still, if you've read this far before breaking apart my post and throwing it back at me with context as far away from the blast radius as possible, I want to say... I agree BST is in a shit position. It used to have Solo/Duo even up to Abyssea era... It used to have Dynamis but now with I.lv gear THF is better... BST has no godly place in FFXI right now outside of "Pet Burns", and don't get me wrong, you can do Pet Burns on most events, but thats not enough...

Anyway, I already admitted SAM is far and above way to overpowered right now... I just don't see how you can fix that without a huge nerf to SAM or a huge buff to other DDs... and If we buff other DD's we're just inching ever closer to "Casual Fantasy XI: Come cap gear in 3 days"


Oh and another FYI, if you think I'm advocating PUP BST remain useless then you didn't read what I wrote. I said PUP BST needs to be useful, but not in a way to make them getting the same advantage as DD.

BLU is a perfect examples of how a job that's way behind SAM in terms of dmg but still useful. Saying more dmg = more balance is one of the laziest way to balance jobs.

All people ever want is "I WANNA DEW MORE DAMAGES"....

This question is to you Olor, For BST, how do you think you can make it more useful? Aside from "MOAR NUMBERS"

[Afania]

I would personally love to see other jobs on par with damage as the current "awesome" dds.
Be it a combination of pet/player dmg or spell dmg, w/e from point 0 to 100% that 100% should be relatively the same across the board as long as the player are all geared accordingly. Which is hard to see. But if you are a all 119 gear'd PUP, BST, BLU, DNC, w/e you damage output should be just as good as a 119 DD. That is balance. Now it might take a little different mechanics to get that dmg but it should be the same output in the end. Don't get me wrong I love my little SAM fudoing all the things for 4k~16k dmg but I also want to see big numbers from other jobs that are DD as well, and yes BST, PUP are suppose to be DDs.

This isn't balance, it's bad design.

A hybrid job(DNC) that can do 13% def down, erase/cure, stun and 10% JA haste do same dmg as another DD that can't do any of those?

A hybrid job(BLU) that can erasega, stun, terror, def down, AoE def 100% buff, high DEF and MDB, assist cure and AoE sleep do the same another DD that can't do any of those?

It's just broken but nothing else.

Hybrid jobs supposed to do less dmg than jobs that don't have other abilities except dmg. Hybrid jobs shouldn't outparse jobs like MNK and SAM period.

If BLU can do same lv of dmg as SAM no one would invite a SAM ever, why invite a SAM over BLU, which can do same dmg as SAM AND everything listed above?

It'd just create another wave of QQ useless jobs and make BLU OP, that is not balance.

[Afania]

I think when it comes down to it, many of us would just like to see a way to do more things within our linkshells/friends without shouting for 3 hours or waiting for the uber-elites who never log on anymore. It's really frustrating to have events cancelled or never get started because the ones who are online (and not afk out of boredom) are not the perfect set-up.

This is an issue irrelevant to DDs. Everytime when ppl are /shouting for 3hr, they're /shouting for BRD WHM GEO.

It's also funny to see ppl want MORE DD jobs in this game when DD spot are extremely competitive.

[Olor]

Karbuncle: I really don't see how you can make BST more useful without MOAR NUMBERS. It's a DD. It can fill no other role. I asked before for it to be made into a tank - tanks are in a bad place but at least if BST was tailored to be a tank (with proper shields and proper shield skill, more ability to heal pet, more ability to shed hate onto pet or pull hate from pet, put hate from party members on pet etc) it could potentially have a party role other than "LOLPETBURN"

The master needs to be made stronger regardless. It's the only way to avoid making pets overpowered. They also need to give pets real buffs - your example with COR buffs is laughable because you ignore that no real (non pet burn) party is ever gonna choose buffing small portion of one job's DD output (pet buff) over boosting every DD's output. That's asinine. It was a stupid idea to make those buffs the way they are - it's stupid to keep them that way.

If, for some reason, I had to say what would do the most for BST outside of MOAR numbers - it would be allowing pet to get all party buffs like any other party member, vastly reducing the damage it takes from AOEs when not the target of the boss, and significantly boosting its resistance to status ailments. Giving us a JA which would allow us to remove status ailments from our pets without the reward timer being used would also help.

[Rubicant82]

Lets play the number game! Here is the how the game work we take a Number ... Lets say 700,000. This being the Damage expected from every DD in a Delve (no these are not real numbers it is just an visual thing).
So For this Delve we will have 4 DDs; SAM, PUP, BST, and Blu, with a SCH & Bard for support.

SAM - Deals 700,000 using ws/normal hits
PUP - The player should deal at least 350,000 and their puppet (we'll say they use Sharpshot) the other 350,000 equaling 700,000
BST - Same as Pup but maybe more a 450,000/250,000 split or 250/450 depending on the pet they use
BLU - WS/Spells etc 700,000 total
SCH - we will say at least 150,000 in nukes while healing everyone
BRD - oh! Sings song, maybe melee a little (because it is an awesome battle bard) 150k in dmg but great support.


That would be a balance. Again all things being equal (gear level) the numbers at the end should be the very close to each other. The path to get to said numbers will be different for every job. I.E. SAM is going to be spamming Weaponskill & making skill chains (that is what they do), PUP is going to be working with their puppet to do the dmg, BST has their critter to help in conjunction with their not own melee dmg, Blue well we all know what they do SPIKE DMG from spells + Skillchains, etc... etc... etc...

Now that is a "perfect" scenario the game is going to be FAR from that as you are going to have your SAM most likely geared to the teeth with good gear as they are almost always in demand, and the other jobs not geared so much. Most likely will not ever see that actual part set up etc... But the point of this game is to have fun. People need to "for-science" more and learn how to make their set ups work. I have no doubt in my mind that with some 109 reforged pieces, augmented wkr gear and the such that delve could be beaten (at least the first 3) by almost any set up as long as the acc is high enough for some of the harder NMs (Bee ... screw that Bee!!).

[Karbuncle]

Karbuncle: I really don't see how you can make BST more useful without MOAR NUMBERS. It's a DD. It can fill no other role. I asked before for it to be made into a tank - tanks are in a bad place but at least if BST was tailored to be a tank (with proper shields and proper shield skill, more ability to heal pet, more ability to shed hate onto pet or pull hate from pet, put hate from party members on pet etc) it could potentially have a party role other than "LOLPETBURN"

First off, Thank ya for the reply.

petburns are one of the things BST are good at, you choosing to ignore it or laugh at is isn't the devs problem. Pet Burns can accomplish a lot of endgame events, not all of them, but a lot, and its one of the few things BST can do really really well in... am I saying that means BST is fine how it is? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Anywho, how much damage is enough damage for the master? You want BST to do as much damage as SAM, 5% less, 3%? If so why bring a SAM when a BST does the same or slightly lesser damage and has a pet that can fight if the BST dies? It can also have the pet tank a second mob while the BST fights another, effectively letting it hold two enemies at once will little to no extra harm to the BST itself... a SAM can't, so if they're on par damage wise, why bring SAM?

You must be seeing the balance issues now, right? Simply making all DD "Samesies" doesn't fix the problem... more damage won't fix BSTs problem either... hell, GEO has recieved massive boosts, do you see shouts for GEO? rarely, I sure don't. Anywho, Yes, BST is a "DD", But its also a "Hybrid Pet job", which is the problem. You see it as a DD, Square Enix sees it as a pet job. I don't disagree BST is in a sad state, but what do you propose they do to make BSTs more "Damaging"? Better mods on their weaponskills? Native Dual wield?


The master needs to be made stronger regardless. It's the only way to avoid making pets overpowered. They also need to give pets real buffs - your example with COR buffs is laughable because you ignore that no real (non pet burn) party is ever gonna choose buffing small portion of one job's DD output (pet buff) over boosting every DD's output. That's asinine. It was a stupid idea to make those buffs the way they are - it's stupid to keep them that way.

Your opinion on pet roles goes into what I said about "Its how we play the jobs that make them gimp". IDK If pet rolls could be made any better or if they were intended for Pet-Burn parties, but they do help our pets more than one might think. Good or bad, IDK. Still if you wanna play that game, If a good BST partied with a good SAM, I can't say for certain their damage would be leagues apart.


If, for some reason, I had to say what would do the most for BST outside of MOAR numbers - it would be allowing pet to get all party buffs like any other party member, vastly reducing the damage it takes from AOEs when not the target of the boss, and significantly boosting its resistance to status ailments. Giving us a JA which would allow us to remove status ailments from our pets without the reward timer being used would also help.

I think all pets should receive party buffs period... its silly they don't. They're a part of the party right? We agree on that.

[Afania]

Lets play the number game! Here is the how the game work we take a Number ... Lets say 700,000. This being the Damage expected from every DD in a Delve (no these are not real numbers it is just an visual thing).
So For this Delve we will have 4 DDs; SAM, PUP, BST, and Blu, with a SCH & Bard for support.

SAM - Deals 700,000 using ws/normal hits
PUP - The player should deal at least 350,000 and their puppet (we'll say they use Sharpshot) the other 350,000 equaling 700,000
BST - Same as Pup but maybe more a 450,000/250,000 split or 250/450 depending on the pet they use
BLU - WS/Spells etc 700,000 total
SCH - we will say at least 150,000 in nukes while healing everyone
BRD - oh! Sings song, maybe melee a little (because it is an awesome battle bard) 150k in dmg but great support.

That would be a balance.

You didn't read my above post don't you? I see zero balance in those. If BLU can do 700,000 dmg like SAM AND erasga/stun/terror/AoE defense x2/AoE haste2/AOE sleep/def down/eva down/piercing/blunt/slashing dmg for kamir, it'd be hands down the most OP job in this game, making every other job irrelevant in this game.

It doesn't matter if your SAM or MNK can do 700,000 dmg or not, the benefit of erasga/stun/AoE defense buff and def/eva down downright outweigh the benefit of everything else SAM and MNK bring to the table. For gods sake 3 BLUs can rotate harden shell and have def+ 100% all the time.


I don't know how you get the idea that deal same dmg= balance. At least you know that BRD shouldn't do 700,000 so you only gave BRD 150k, so why can BLU PUP BST DNC get 700k? Doesn't make sense at all.

[Karbuncle]

You didn't read my above post don't you? I see zero balance in those. If BLU can do 700,000 dmg like SAM AND erasga/stun/terror/AoE defense x2/AoE haste2/AOE sleep/def down/eva down/piercing/blunt/slashing dmg for kamir, it'd be hands down the most OP job in this game, making every other job irrelevant in this game.

It doesn't matter if your SAM or MNK can do 700,000 dmg or not, the benefit of erasga/stun/AoE defense buff and def/eva down downright outweigh the benefit of everything else SAM and MNK bring to the table. For gods sake 3 BLUs can rotate harden shell and have def+ 100% all the time.


I don't know how you get the idea that deal same dmg= balance.

This^^^^^

What you said(rub) is nowhere near Balance. SAM has 1 thing going for it and 1 thing only... Damage, the the jobs you(rub) listed aside from SAM all have some utility... especially BLU, they have other things they bring to the table... its just... most people don't care about those other things :|

[Afania]

This^^^^^

What you said(rub) is nowhere near Balance. SAM has 1 thing going for it and 1 thing only... Damage, the the jobs you(rub) listed aside from SAM all have some utility... especially BLU, they have other things they bring to the table... its just... most people don't care about those other things :|


If they're game designers it'd be disaster :/ We'd see "/shout Yorcia delve do you need it. BLU BLU BLU BLU BRD WHM"

[Rubicant82]

its just... most people don't care about those other things :|

That is why I have the opinion that the same damage means balance, that comment right there ^

The player base could care less if your job has utility. Not a three to four song bard with Gilga horn? That's too bad, maybe next time.
Not a SAM with 119 & Fudo, good luck see you again!
Etc etc etc . . .


With out the ability to deal the right amount of damage your job will be ignored for end game content. That has been my experience to the fault that I ended up spending millions of gil and a lot of play time over the last year and some change of time get my PLD, SAM & RNG up to par so I could go to events. When I would much rather go on my BLM, SMN, BLU. . .
But because at least on the Carbuncle server it seems that unless you are a BRD(3/4 song), WHM, COR, SAM, PLD (AAs only), RNG you wont be doing delve anytime soon.

I can only speak from my point of view but it appears to me that unless you can sh*t our dmg you are not wanted. So in order to "fix" that all jobs that are considered DD should ultimately be able to do the same amount of damage.

[Olor]

If they're game designers it'd be disaster :/ We'd see "/shout Yorcia delve do you need it. BLU BLU BLU BLU BRD WHM"

Instead of MNK MNK SAM SAM WHM BRD?

Gee... what a huge difference, not.

As everyone has noted, no one cares about utility. Not a bit. TH maybe the only exception, and nowadays rarely. Either the drop rate is so good you don't need it, or so random no one trusts TH, or so low it appears to make zero discernible difference.

That's why I say that DD jobs should have no more than 10 per cent of their Damage output negated for their "utility." My ability as a bst to hold a fodder mob or w/e is not worth the HUGE loss in DPS I suffer for simply being a pet job. If it was, people would be interested in inviting BSTs. With 10 per cent difference MNK SAM and other pure DDs still stand out as DDs but it starts to seem more sane to look at utility of other jobs a bit more.

Also people act like light DDs don't sacrifice elsewhere than just pure damage - they also have less HP, more job ability delay, are harder to gear (especially BLU... omg), their gear is less tanky, etc.

[Mitruya]

This is an issue irrelevant to DDs. Everytime when ppl are /shouting for 3hr, they're /shouting for BRD WHM GEO.

It's also funny to see ppl want MORE DD jobs in this game when DD spot are extremely competitive.

My apologies, I seem to have left out details and ran my thoughts together. What I was saying is relative, because we didn't have the "right" DDs or the "best" DDs online at the time, so events got cancelled/never started.
I agree the DD spot is competitive, and you do see shouts for DDs, but it's usually for the same cookie-cutter set-up.
Also I was thinking of posts related to better balancing of the support jobs as well, so yes my sentiment may be a bit outside of the scope of this thread, but I kind of thought that was the whole point of everyone's argument - we want to fill parties and do content, working with whatever we have on hand at the time. I don't think many people mind job changing and filling different roles (that they find fun), but there seems to be a general frustration in the "MNK-only" or "RNG-only" or whatever mentality. Linkshells want a reason to exist and a way to include everybody, friends want a way to just jump in and play with whoever is online, etc. But mostly it feels lonely if you don't already have a popular job ready to go and you're not confident in leadership. You just see people split off and lowman things because it's such a hassle to incorporate lesser jobs/players.
Apologies for the slight derailment, it just seems like all the recent complaint threads are related.

[Olor]

My apologies, I seem to have left out details and ran my thoughts together. What I was saying is relative, because we didn't have the "right" DDs or the "best" DDs online at the time, so events got cancelled/never started.
I agree the DD spot is competitive, and you do see shouts for DDs, but it's usually for the same cookie-cutter set-up.
Also I was thinking of posts related to better balancing of the support jobs as well, so yes my sentiment may be a bit outside of the scope of this thread, but I kind of thought that was the whole point of everyone's argument - we want to fill parties and do content, working with whatever we have on hand at the time. I don't think many people mind job changing and filling different roles (that they find fun), but there seems to be a general frustration in the "MNK-only" or "RNG-only" or whatever mentality. Linkshells want a reason to exist and a way to include everybody, friends want a way to just jump in and play with whoever is online, etc. But mostly it feels lonely if you don't already have a popular job ready to go and you're not confident in leadership. You just see people split off and lowman things because it's such a hassle to incorporate lesser jobs/players.
Apologies for the slight derailment, it just seems like all the recent complaint threads are related.

Bolded part is so true and I don't think this is a derailment at all. The lack of job balance is sucking life out of the game. I really miss the way it was in voidwatch/abyssea days. Sure, my bst wasn't particularly useful then but it was competitive in dynamis (pre TH nerf and pre ilevel making THF dyna much easier) - I could help out in Abyssea (I could farm pop items etc while main group was taking down NMs for KIs), and my BLU was wanted for voidwatch. So, I actually had some variety.

I ended up not playing at all this weekend cause my choices were effectively "solo" or "play bard" neither of which I wanted to do. (I do love my bard! I just get tired of being support). I wanted to set up an alluvion run but not enough friends were interested and I was hoping to do it on BST. Since I have never done it I didn't feel comfortable shouting for pick ups, especially not on bst.

So, yeah, after getting a job point on BST and trying to get a spell on BLU and doing a wildskeeper on BST, I logged out... and had no desire to log back in... that's sad.

[Karbuncle]

If it makes you feel any better, I'm confident a good BST would be able to do Alluvian well... shit I've even brought a NIN lol... not a great one either, he was good, not superb.

[Rubicant82]

Skirmishes in general or at least the ones I have done seem to be all job friendly thank god.

[Camiie]

Oh and another FYI, if you think I'm advocating PUP BST remain useless then you didn't read what I wrote. I said PUP BST needs to be useful, but not in a way to make them getting the same advantage as DD.

They ARE DD. They just fail at it so spectacularly that most people don't see them as such. If they're not DD then what role do they fill? Care to tell me? And soloist is not a group role.


BLU is a perfect examples of how a job that's way behind SAM in terms of dmg but still useful. Saying more dmg = more balance is one of the laziest way to balance jobs.

BLU has group utility within its variety of spells. What group utility does a BST or a PUP have that makes them worth bringing?

[Karbuncle]

They ARE DD. They just fail at it so spectacularly that most people don't see them as such. If they're not DD then what role do they fill? Care to tell me? And soloist is not a group role.

They're pet jobs, and Square sees them as such... and if you'd like to get real technical, PUP was originally intended to fill a role similar to SMN, being a support type class with their pet doing most of the work, never was intended to be taken as a DD as we use it now. This has changed since then, but it doesn't change the fact PUP can summon a Tank, Healer, or DD puppet, with the Healer being very nice to have a long...

Again, don't mean I think BST and PUP are fine, but they aren't "DD" jobs", they're considered by SE to be "Pet Jobs", what defined pet jobs IDK, DD'ing is just what they can do. PUP being weaker than BST would be understandable with Automatons being much more controllable and having the ability to bring in a pocket WHM to a full 6 man party...

[Olor]

If it makes you feel any better, I'm confident a good BST would be able to do Alluvian well... shit I've even brought a NIN lol... not a great one either, he was good, not superb.

Oh good, I was hoping so.

[Camiie]

They're pet jobs

"Pet job" is not a group role. DPS/DD, Tank, Healer, and Support are group roles. A job/class in a group based MMO needs to fit effectively into one or more of those categories. So again which do they fall under?

[Karbuncle]

"Pet job" is not a group role. DPS/DD, Tank, Healer, and Support are group roles. A job/class in a group based MMO needs to fit effectively into one or more of those categories. So again which do they fall under?

As far as PUP Goes, Hybrid Class. As far as BST goes, DD I suppose, but its also a Pet Class, however you wanna go "Full Politician" and miss the point, Pet jobs/classes do exist, and pet jobs are usually defined by having a companion, normally having lower DD from master which is made up by the Pet, the Pets usually having some sort of utility.

In that line of thinking, most pet job have lower damage from the master/pet that is balanced out by the fact they have a dispensable pet that doesn't get weakened, and can be thrown at an enemy without risk to the player, and can be resummoned based on time, perhaps their damage is too low in balance right now, which I've never denied, but insisting they're a DD class and nothing else is as narrow minded if not more so than the "SAM ONRY" shouts. Balancing pet jobs is especially difficult for Square because these jobs do bring other things to the table besides pure DD. Its just that in the eyes of the community this utility is rarely utilized or needed... so I agree BST needs something else, but what exactly? Pet jobs have generally been a Hybrid DD/Support, DD/healer, DD/tank or something to the liking, Pet jobs are unique because usually their pets bring something different to the table rather than raw DD, allowing them to be useful in more ways. This doesn't exactly fit in XI's world it seems, as even jobs like PUP and SMN are left out for a lot of events.

Balancing pet jobs is one of the hardest thing to do when it comes to MMO classes, because you have to achieve a good amount of utility from the job, but not making it so end all that the utility of the pet renders other jobs obsolete. I can't think of anything SE could do to balance the job fairly.

A small, small damage boost to the master would be a good start. Increasing the mods on their WS would go a long way as some of them are underwhelming. Pets getting buffs from party would also help in both pet survival and the masters overall DPS. But outside of minor damage upgrades, BST would need to bring something to the table to be worth using over SAM, right? What could that be, or would everyone be content with BST just being another DD job and nothing else?

Perhaps the Self-buff pet TP moves could be AoE? BST is in a pretty sh*tty spot right now, but will more damage solve that? Maybe, but then you'll just have SAMs and other DD complaining that their jobs aren't invited cause BST does the same damage and has a dispensable pet, and the cycle continues.

[Bebekeke]

BST can have a lot of utility in a fight... choosing the right pet so that you can use Killer Instinct, or choosing a pet for particular enfeebles provides a very strong edge in a fight.

Not to mention the fact that in a particularly hard fight there's still the option to take 6 BST all with a very durable pet (VS adoulin mobs, choosing a pet that's strong to the 1 element that most bosses use is good) and just stick the pets on to bounce hate around while keeping the master out of range.

The only real issue that BST has right now is the lack of options at 119 to provide this utility.

[Camiie]

As far as PUP Goes, Hybrid Class. As far as BST goes, DD I suppose, but its also a Pet Class, however you wanna go "Full Politician" and miss the point, Pet jobs/classes do exist, and pet jobs are usually defined by having a companion, normally having lower DD from master which is made up by the Pet, the Pets usually having some sort of utility.

In the MMOs I am familiar with pet classes are DPS classes, and despite their innate ability to solo well, they are allowed to effectively DPS in whatever content they wish to participate in. I'm not going to claim there aren't balance issues, but they are minuscule compared to the utter nonsense that is FFXI class balance.


BST can have a lot of utility in a fight... choosing the right pet so that you can use Killer Instinct, or choosing a pet for particular enfeebles provides a very strong edge in a fight.

Not to mention the fact that in a particularly hard fight there's still the option to take 6 BST all with a very durable pet (VS adoulin mobs, choosing a pet that's strong to the 1 element that most bosses use is good) and just stick the pets on to bounce hate around while keeping the master out of range.

The only real issue that BST has right now is the lack of options at 119 to provide this utility.

Killer Instinct? Really? And what happens when your foes aren't part of the beast strength chart? Your Killer Instinct buff is now worthless while a WAR can still Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry or Blood Rage and be just as effective. A SAM can still self buff with Hasso/Seigan and Meditate. A MNK can still Mantra and Formless Strikes.

If you want to go the buff route then go the route WoW does with Hunter. Each family of pet has a certain buff they bring to the table that affects the group. A wolf gives off an attack boost regardless of what you're fighting. Make Killer Instinct do that and you have a much more universally effective ability. The drawback would be that you'd likely be stuck always using the same pet and the others would languish in party play, but at least you'd have something to offer a group regardless of the type of mob you're facing.

[Afania]

Instead of MNK MNK SAM SAM WHM BRD?

Gee... what a huge difference, not.

As everyone has noted, no one cares about utility. Not a bit.

I don't think you understand the real reason behind "SAM or bust" mentality then. SAM or bust mentality came from the group of so called "elitists" who would proceed to argue the "most efficient" setup in this game. If they can do a zone with 3 char, they wouldn't do with 6. If they can do a zone in 20 min, they wouldn't do in 25.

Then they proceed to advocate X setup on the forum, while pretending utility doesn't help one single bit to the group. So the rest of the community visit the forum, copied and pasted the setup on the forum, and it slowly turned into "SAM or bust" mentality.

You can argue that SAM and MNK that can do same dmg as BLU would't be useless because lolutility, but this is incorrect. In most cases utility plays a very important role when pushing pt's efficiency to a higher lv. I can explain why, please see below:




That is why I have the opinion that the same damage means balance, that comment right there ^

The player base could care less if your job has utility. Not a three to four song bard with Gilga horn? That's too bad, maybe next time.
Not a SAM with 119 & Fudo, good luck see you again!
Etc etc etc . . .


With out the ability to deal the right amount of damage your job will be ignored for end game content.

The bolded part is incorrect, it's not that "the player base could care less about utility", but it's more about "what job/pt setup is the most efficient". Players doesn't care about utility because utility doesn't bring efficiency when the gap is too big. Once you eliminate the gap, utility WILL bring higher efficiency.

That means, a setup that can clear delve in 20 min is superior to a pt that can clear delve in 25 min. In most cases, output isn't the only factor that determine the clear speed.

In the case of 700k dmg BLU v.s 700k dmg SAM, if you don't count the dmg from SC(since we're assuming both jobs do same dmg and we're only comparing the advantage of utility), a pt with BLU will clear a lot faster than a pt of SAM.

There are several reasons for this:

1. A pt of BLU rotating harden shell for def+100% means BLU no longer has to turtle while meleeing. While SAMs has to sacrifice output to TP in hybrid TP set and deal less than 700k dmg when they need to, BLU can maintain low dmg taken AND go all out for dmg.

2. BLU still has additional def down, which will provide more dmg than 700k.

3. A pt of BLU can also rotate and maintain haste2 without the need of RDM. Therefore, you can change pt setup or buffs for more efficient run. For example, you can use 4 BLU + BRD WHM instead of 3 SAM+BRD+RDM and still get all the benefit from RDM. You can use 1 march + 2~3 min instead of 2 marches and 1~2 min. With the benefit from def+, you may be able to use another healer job such as GEO or RDM instead of WHM, providing even greater total output.

4. You kill adds faster with AoE spells, instead of killing them one by one. And adds do take time to kill.

5. Against NM that spams AoE slow like crazy, such as wopket, a pt with BLU can erase much faster than a pt with no BLU, resulting higher killing speed.

6. You can rotate stun/terror on NM that can land terror, certain NM's WS move can reduce kill speed because of AoE stun, slow and such. If you don't let the NM use their moves, your kill speed will increase because you no longer have to deal with them.

7. Against NM that can amnesia, BLU will also do A LOT more dmg thanks to new spell formula and higher DPS.

The result is, using a pt of 700k dmg BLU will provide much greater efficiency than a pt of 700k dmg SAM. The elitists will once again, show off on the forum about how easy the content is with a pt of BLU thanks to all that stun/terror and free haste2, while the rest of the community copy and paste the same setup and go "SAM or gtfo".

This isn't balance, this is bad design. BLU shouldn't do same lv of dmg as SAM, ever. If SAM can do 700k, BLU only worth 500k~600k.

Note that according to some quick spreadsheet, not counting SC dmg, a delve BLU using def down spell showed about 70%+ of delve SAM's dmg under the same buff. I think that's not counting spell dmg either.

If a pt of SAMx3 can clear yorcia in 20 min, on paper a pt BLUx3 would need to spend 1.3~1.4 times to clear yorcia, which means 28 min max.

If you're going to argue that jobs can only accomplish true balance through the same output because you can't tolerate clearing the content 8 min slower in a 45 min event, then idk what to say. Personally, I didn't have an issue getting invite on BLU when delve was 18 man and my gear was ok.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can't contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg, maybe you need to work harder.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can only contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg and that doesn't meet their standard because utility is "useless", you either need new friends or just make your own pt.

If you insist that 70% of SAM's dmg isn't acceptable that you must see 100% of SAM's dmg, gl. I'm happy with BLU's current output, personally. The benefit of haste2, def down, none elemental dmg, def+100% and stuns out weight the 30% dmg gap, but that's just my personal opinion.

[Afania]

"Pet job" is not a group role. DPS/DD, Tank, Healer, and Support are group roles. A job/class in a group based MMO needs to fit effectively into one or more of those categories. So again which do they fall under?


My real question is why do you insist jobs must fill one of the DPS/tank/healer/support role in MMO. Ever since SWTOR a lot of the AAA MMO have been trying to move away from the traditional group roles in MMO. Classes in GW2 are hybrids and they can change roles depending on the build/situation. All 4 classes in TESO can be played as DD/tank/healer/support depending on how you want to play it.

If I remember correctly I think EQN may move away from DPS/tank/healer/support as well.

Pet doesn't need to fill one of it's job roles, and DD role isn't the only place it belongs. It can have multiple functions in event. It can act as ranged dmg DPS instead of melee only, it can function as tank. It can CC.

I believe in order to fix BST, pet's dmg and mechanics needs to be changed(instead of master's) They also need some other utility that makes a difference. If they can get AoE WS as strong as fell cleave, or survive ability close to PLD, and ranged dmg close to RNG, it can be a pretty useful hybrid even in delve.

Give pets some utility moves such as potent def/eva down and it can be a viable support.

BST can at least fill DD(both melee and ranged), tank, and support with current mechanic, the only thing it can't do is heal.

Imagine this, you're doing marj on a pet job, you pull NM with pet and use AoE move to clear them real fast, on more dangerous NM such as T5 or megaboss you summoned a tank pet and have it tank the NM while other RNG kill it. You also do def down/eva down with pet's specialty on all NM for faster kill speed.

Even if BST can only do 65% dmg of SAM, I fail to see why you wouldn't bring one in such situation.

Come on, be creative. Making every job that can do the same dmg as sam isn't the only way to accomplish balance, more like the most boring way.

[Malithar]

Imagine this, you're doing marj on a pet job, you pull NM with pet and use AoE move to clear them real fast, on more dangerous NM such as T5 or megaboss you summoned a tank pet and have it tank the NM while other RNG kill it. You also do def down/eva down with pet's specialty on all NM for faster kill speed.

Even if BST can only do 65% dmg of SAM, I fail to see why you wouldn't bring one in such situation.

Because that situation doesn't exist? 2/3 of the "fixes" you mentioned above revolve around what pet jobs are asking for, increased damage output to better compete with other DDs. I get where you're coming from about hybrids, and offering more to a party, but Bst nor Pup offers these things. Pup's Soulsoother? Great for soloing, terrible in parties. Bst admittedly has a few nifty debuffs that Dasva discovered, -25% eva comes to mind. But these are on pets that are no longer viable.

The entire idea behind hybrids is silly IMO. I mean, some MMOs you could stretch it out and call everything a hybrid because they have cool downs for HP gain, -DT, damage, buffs, you name it. Even here, would you call a War a hybrid? They're beefy enough to tank and get massive TP gain through Retaliation, can get respectable defense, AoE buff with Warcry and Blood Rage 20% of the time, and still provide solid single target DPS, or good AoE DPS with Fell Cleave.

There's a line for everything though. No, War is not a buffer, and calling War a tank is a stretch anymore in this day and age. It's a DD. Pulling out these asinine scenarios of pet burns, pet CCing, imaginary non-existent situations where pet jobs are omg amazing and people who don't take them for their "65% damage of a Sam" *highly skeptical of this* and utility are twats is silly. Every job needs an easily defined party roll so that in this day and age of pugs, party leaders know what a job has to offer, and SE needs to make jobs capable of performing to a desired degree (read, not just equal to 100%+ of the best DD available) to be able to meaningfully contribute. I don't agree with their post about pet + master > DD, but I don't think it should be very far below the DD either.

As far as shouts go, nothing will change unless they completely unhinge whatever they got setup. They just buffed Geo out the ass, insanely OP atm. Have you seen a shout for a Geo? Neither have I. But Geo has the tools available to make parties go "woah.." all Matrix like, and make people see that a Geo is worth bringing. What can a Bst do? A Pup? At the moment, they can't even send a tell to a party looking for a DD (whether they're shouting for Sam and Mnk or not) and say "I'll DD on Bst" with a straight face.

And before the whole argument of job change comes back round, I agree, you should have multiple jobs leveled to fill whatever the situation may need. However, all jobs should be capable of performing at some sort of a baseline as well. Well below 50% of another DD's output is not cutting it.

[Mitruya]

Yessss, this so much. ^
If someone shouts for DD, more than likely they're not looking for my PUP, DRG, or BLU. So I don't even bother.
If someone shouts for healing magic/support, they're not looking for SMN or DNC.
It's really sad.
The thought of leveling/skilling/learning and gearing BRD WHM RNG PLD SAM in a way that would satisfy people's expectations seems rather daunting and stressful to me, and I'm just not interested in it.

[Aeron]

I don't think you understand the real reason behind "SAM or bust" mentality then. SAM or bust mentality came from the group of so called "elitists" who would proceed to argue the "most efficient" setup in this game. If they can do a zone with 3 char, they wouldn't do with 6. If they can do a zone in 20 min, they wouldn't do in 25.

Then they proceed to advocate X setup on the forum, while pretending utility doesn't help one single bit to the group. So the rest of the community visit the forum, copied and pasted the setup on the forum, and it slowly turned into "SAM or bust" mentality.

You can argue that SAM and MNK that can do same dmg as BLU would't be useless because lolutility, but this is incorrect. In most cases utility plays a very important role when pushing pt's efficiency to a higher lv. I can explain why, please see below:





The bolded part is incorrect, it's not that "the player base could care less about utility", but it's more about "what job/pt setup is the most efficient". Players doesn't care about utility because utility doesn't bring efficiency when the gap is too big. Once you eliminate the gap, utility WILL bring higher efficiency.

That means, a setup that can clear delve in 20 min is superior to a pt that can clear delve in 25 min. In most cases, output isn't the only factor that determine the clear speed.

In the case of 700k dmg BLU v.s 700k dmg SAM, if you don't count the dmg from SC(since we're assuming both jobs do same dmg and we're only comparing the advantage of utility), a pt with BLU will clear a lot faster than a pt of SAM.

There are several reasons for this:

1. A pt of BLU rotating harden shell for def+100% means BLU no longer has to turtle while meleeing. While SAMs has to sacrifice output to TP in hybrid TP set and deal less than 700k dmg when they need to, BLU can maintain low dmg taken AND go all out for dmg.

2. BLU still has additional def down, which will provide more dmg than 700k.

3. A pt of BLU can also rotate and maintain haste2 without the need of RDM. Therefore, you can change pt setup or buffs for more efficient run. For example, you can use 4 BLU + BRD WHM instead of 3 SAM+BRD+RDM and still get all the benefit from RDM. You can use 1 march + 2~3 min instead of 2 marches and 1~2 min. With the benefit from def+, you may be able to use another healer job such as GEO or RDM instead of WHM, providing even greater total output.

4. You kill adds faster with AoE spells, instead of killing them one by one. And adds do take time to kill.

5. Against NM that spams AoE slow like crazy, such as wopket, a pt with BLU can erase much faster than a pt with no BLU, resulting higher killing speed.

6. You can rotate stun/terror on NM that can land terror, certain NM's WS move can reduce kill speed because of AoE stun, slow and such. If you don't let the NM use their moves, your kill speed will increase because you no longer have to deal with them.

7. Against NM that can amnesia, BLU will also do A LOT more dmg thanks to new spell formula and higher DPS.

The result is, using a pt of 700k dmg BLU will provide much greater efficiency than a pt of 700k dmg SAM. The elitists will once again, show off on the forum about how easy the content is with a pt of BLU thanks to all that stun/terror and free haste2, while the rest of the community copy and paste the same setup and go "SAM or gtfo".

This isn't balance, this is bad design. BLU shouldn't do same lv of dmg as SAM, ever. If SAM can do 700k, BLU only worth 500k~600k.

Note that according to some quick spreadsheet, not counting SC dmg, a delve BLU using def down spell showed about 70%+ of delve SAM's dmg under the same buff. I think that's not counting spell dmg either.

If a pt of SAMx3 can clear yorcia in 20 min, on paper a pt BLUx3 would need to spend 1.3~1.4 times to clear yorcia, which means 28 min max.

If you're going to argue that jobs can only accomplish true balance through the same output because you can't tolerate clearing the content 8 min slower in a 45 min event, then idk what to say. Personally, I didn't have an issue getting invite on BLU when delve was 18 man and my gear was ok.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can't contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg, maybe you need to work harder.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can only contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg and that doesn't meet their standard because utility is "useless", you either need new friends or just make your own pt.

If you insist that 70% of SAM's dmg isn't acceptable that you must see 100% of SAM's dmg, gl. I'm happy with BLU's current output, personally. The benefit of haste2, def down, none elemental dmg, def+100% and stuns out weight the 30% dmg gap, but that's just my personal opinion.

Awesome post really outlines the right way to think about the game in its current form.

[Afania]

Because that situation doesn't exist? 2/3 of the "fixes" you mentioned above revolve around what pet jobs are asking for, [i]increased damage output to better compete with other DDs.

Ummm, the above post offered an idea of "fix" through a new design/redesign of content and a fix of pet jobs mechanic, instead of saying current content can fit pet jobs in.

For the entire thread I've been saying design game content so hybrid get an advantage is better than changing hybrid and turn it into more SAM.

I'm not sure how the concept of "change role" in a raid is equal to increase dmg output, honestly it's not necessary equal to increased output.

I'm not sure what's wrong with hybrid in a MMO. I think WAR and SAM was originally designed as tank job, SE just decided to turn them into DD. I don't think it's fair to brought up the tanking issue when it comes to hybrid discussion anyways. The "tank" design in FFXI is currently still broken, you can do the majority of the content without it. Technically you can "tank" majority of the content on DD jobs already, but that doesn't make them hybrid since that's not really tanking.

[Afania]

Yessss, this so much. ^
If someone shouts for DD, more than likely they're not looking for my PUP, DRG, or BLU. So I don't even bother.
If someone shouts for healing magic/support, they're not looking for SMN or DNC.
It's really sad.
The thought of leveling/skilling/learning and gearing BRD WHM RNG PLD SAM in a way that would satisfy people's expectations seems rather daunting and stressful to me, and I'm just not interested in it.

I offered COR whenever I see ppl /shout for a DD and often still get in, I've seen ppl offered DNC when I /shout for a DD. I'm not sure why you wouldn't offer PUP DRG BLU.

I've invited unpopular DD such as DNC because I know he can parse high, on the other hand I've denied plenty of SAM and MNK to join my pt cuz I know they parse low. I've even denied ls/friend SAM and MNK for joining because they parse low.

For the entire thread all I see is a lot of complain about "I don't get invite unless I'm SAM" "No way I'd get invite because I"m not SAM" before even try. Unless I'm playing different game it seems exaggerating.

[Afania]

And before the whole argument of job change comes back round, I agree, you should have multiple jobs leveled to fill whatever the situation may need. However, all jobs should be capable of performing at some sort of a baseline as well. Well below 50% of another DD's output is not cutting it.

Serious question, not counting skillchain dmg(come on, every job can skillchain)exactly which job in this game can't do more than 50% of another DD.

A job that's obviously designed for support nor have access to large offensive JA/spell/gears doesn't count. So BRD doesn't count.

You also have to compare jobs in same lv of gear, so none mythic SAM v.s another none mythic DD etc.

I haven't check spreadsheet for every job yet, but for the entire thread, everyone kept exaggerate and pull numbers out of nowhere to support their argument about "X job needs a buff".

First there's someone claiming PUP is lower than 50% of SAM, but it really doesn't seem so based on the parse result I had with PUP and spreadsheet. More like PUP is over 65% of SAM.

Then there's someone claiming BLU suck, but BLU is still around 65% of sam before def down, with def down it's easily 70%.

I'm pretty sure both DNC and COR can do well over 60% of SAM as well.

I thought GEO can do over 50% of SAM according to you. I highly doubt BLM can't do over 50% of SAM when GEO can, unless the mob downright resist magic.

Even a tank job like RUN with slightly less offensive JA than above jobs can do 60% of SAM without needing an ergon weapon.

Exactly which job can't do over 50% of SAM? Again, it's fine if you want a buff for your jobs, but it's not fine to twist the fact to support your argument. Most of the time, if a job can't do over 50% of another DD, it's because the player isn't playing well nor they care.

[Balloon]

Corsair can dd and buff. It is more than the sum of it's parts. If anything, while I don't like the idea of hybrid jobs, I think Corsair is hybridization done correctly. Two components, that, on their own are not worth a party slot, but when combined are quite potent.
Beastmaster and Puppetmaster can do nothing but DD, poorly.

If someone invited a PUP or BST they are reducing the chance they win. If you're doing 65% of the damage (also dubious about that) of some other dd then the fight goes on longer, more chances something can go wrong, more chance of failure. It is completely understandable why some people don't accept certain jobs, and why some people don't even feel the desire to ask if they can go as that job. I don't want to be the reason someone fails, and I don't want to get a reputation of the guy that spams /tells with "Please let me go puppetmaster."

'Pet Job' is not a classification of a job. You cannot do 'Pet' to an enemy; you can deal damage to an enemy via a pet. Pet job is a sub-section of the DD role, and as such it should be able to compete as one. I don't think the master should be doing all the damage, I think the pets should be near 30-40% of the damage of the combination. Currently pets parse at less than 5% and have floored hit rates when not using food, and probably around 70-80% hit rates when using Pet Food. There's another area where pets fall short. The need to eat pet food in order to have your pet even be contributing. On situations where your acc is naturally capped you're missing out on a heap of attack to eat something inferior.

Potential and Reality are two entirely different things. The argument shouldn't really be focused around X player who does more damage than Y player. The argument is more ideal X cannot compete with ideal Y.

I think it's a very noble idea to create content that appeals to all the jobs seperately, but I think that it's a pipe dream when the development team is as small as it is, and frankly as ignorant of how the game is currently played. I also don't think the idea of buffing some of the more neglected jobs to be competitive and content that favors jobs is mutually exclusive. Jobs could be at a relative (not equal) baseline and then be 10-20% better in X event.

In the end, I think that buffing jobs would bring back at least a modicum of variety to the game. If shouts don't change, and they probably won't, at least I can suggest going PUP or BST with friends, or set my own run up on those jobs without feeling like I am a burden to others. This is a social game, and it is not in the best interest of others currently to go on some jobs.

I keep hearing the argument 'if I wanted jobs to be balanced I'd go play FFXIV.' Which kind of neglects the thousands of differences between the game. I think FFXI has better gear variety, more methodical, calculated combat, a more interesting story and world. More interesting mechanics vis-a-vis gear swapping. I do think that FFXIV has things that are executed better, though.
The stubborn refusal to identify when one game does something better is why FFXIV-1.0 was such a disaster.

[Afania]

Corsair can dd and buff. It is more than the sum of it's parts. If anything, while I don't like the idea of hybrid jobs, I think Corsair is hybridization done correctly. Two components, that, on their own are not worth a party slot, but when combined are quite potent.
Beastmaster and Puppetmaster can do nothing but DD, poorly.

If someone invited a PUP or BST they are reducing the chance they win. If you're doing 65% of the damage (also dubious about that) of some other dd then the fight goes on longer, more chances something can go wrong, more chance of failure. It is completely understandable why some people don't accept certain jobs, and why some people don't even feel the desire to ask if they can go as that job. I don't want to be the reason someone fails, and I don't want to get a reputation of the guy that spams /tells with "Please let me go puppetmaster."

'Pet Job' is not a classification of a job. You cannot Pet an enemy to death. Pet job is a sub-section of the DD class, and as such it should be able to compete as one. I don't think the master should be doing all the damage, I think the pets should be near 30-40% of the damage of the combination. Currently pets parse at less than 5% and have floored hit rates when not using food, and probably around 70-80% hit rates when using Pet Food. There's another area where pets fall short. The need to eat pet food in order to have your pet even be contributing. On situations where your acc is naturally capped you're missing out on a heap of attack to eat something inferior.

Potential and Reality are two entirely different things. The argument shouldn't really be focused around X player who does more damage than Y player. The argument is more ideal X cannot compete with ideal Y.

I think it's a very noble idea to create content that appeases to all the classes seperately, but I think that it's a pipe dream when the development team is as small, and frankly as ignorant of how the game is currently played and how each class compete. I also don't think the idea of buffing some of the more neglected jobs to be competitive and content that favors jobs is mutually exclusive. Jobs could be at a relative (not equal) baseline and then be 10-20% better in X event.

In the end, I think that buffing jobs would bring back at least a modicum of variety to the game. If shouts don't change, and they probably won't, at least I can suggest going PUP or BST with friends, or set my own run up on those jobs without feeling like I am a burden to others. This is a social game, and it is not in the best interest of others currently to go on some jobs.

A run that takes longer doesn't necessary means more failure. If you roll with PUG foret, they wipe very often due to support can't erase on megaboss properly. With debuff on, massive magical dmg and DD TP while spike on, it's very easy to wipe.

If you use BLU or RUN, it'd make the run a lot smoother due to the extra magic def+ from them, and BLU's AoE erase ability.

And yes I've seen ppl /shout for a BLU for foret just for AoE erase because WHM can't do the job.

Saying "longer run is bad" is nothing but elitist way of thinking. AoE erase and AoE def+ is only useless when you pt with very good support, in real life it's a lot more beneficial than you'd think.

Also, you agree that making BST not useless through different design content approach or redesign pet job ability is a good idea, but you don't agree it's doable? SE just revived RDM without turning RDM into WHM like how community been asking for years. It's not that hard to make BST PUP useful without turning them into SAM.

[Balloon]

Saying that a longer run is bad is elitist? I don't see how, all I'm saying is that when a run goes on longer you are increasing the chances that something goes wrong. This might be different if you were increasing the length of the run to bring some damage mitigation to the table, like including a RUN - In the beastmaster example it brings nothing but a lower DD output.

I should really keep count of the amount of times you've accused me of wanting PUP and BST to become sam, because it is comical now. I'll repeat though I don't want BST or PUP to be sam . I want war to do more damage too. And DRG. You know what I don't want them to be either? SAM. Wanting something to do more damage is not the same as wanting it to be a samurai. They play differently. Why shouldn't a pet jobs pet be more effective if that's the thing that the whole job is centered around?

I'm not asking for something stupid, I don't want pets to be invincible, or overpowered. Beastmaster and puppetmaster have some very vulnerable spawn that cannot be enhanced like a party member, cannot be healed via traditional means and are susceptible to dying easily. If they were as potent as a sam, bringing them would still be more risky than bringing a samurai because you have a high chance of losing a significant portion of your damage at a drop of a hat. You have to upkeep and maintain your pets. With such an emphasis placed on the maintenance of these elements, why shouldn't they be doing more or equal damage to the master, or at least a significant proportion of damage.

I don't know how many people were asking for RDM to become the new WHM. I think a lot of people wanted there to be a greater emphasis on their previous best strengths, which was Enhancing (Haste II, Frazzle) and Enfeebling. Which is what was enhanced.

I want a beastmasters buff to be focused on the pet. But the pets only function is to do deal damage. For a beastmaster, that is what their buff would be without a fundamental reworking of the job.

For Puppetmaster? Who knows, I think a big portion of what we do in parties is deal damage. We use the ranger frame. The other frames aren't exactly effective in any other scenario. If our boon was having a frame that provided maybe some geo style buffs to other members? I'd be kind of okay with that. They'd have to be as potent as COR buffs though, or geo buffs. Something that makes puppetmaster greater than the sum of it's parts. Because at the minute the sum of it's parts are an incredible frail, weak mess that provide no benefit to a party.

[Draylo]

As long as 6 man content is the norm, you won't see people straying from "SAM only." You can and always could have used other jobs to fill a DD spot, typically people will choose the best and least easiest to mess up when doing a PUG. 6 man parties are very restrictive, even more so for 3 man which people are doing lately for delve. Everyone clamored for this, so you either have to start your own parties or just accept it. Nerfing SAM probably won't change that much either, they need to have a reason for other jobs to be there to DD.

[Mitruya]

I offered COR whenever I see ppl /shout for a DD and often still get in, I've seen ppl offered DNC when I /shout for a DD. I'm not sure why you wouldn't offer PUP DRG BLU.

I've invited unpopular DD such as DNC because I know he can parse high, on the other hand I've denied plenty of SAM and MNK to join my pt cuz I know they parse low. I've even denied ls/friend SAM and MNK for joining because they parse low.

For the entire thread all I see is a lot of complain about "I don't get invite unless I'm SAM" "No way I'd get invite because I"m not SAM" before even try. Unless I'm playing different game it seems exaggerating.

I have admitted and will continue to honestly admit when I am my own obstacle to participation - I am a shy person.
On the other hand, I have experienced rejection or been ignored, even without having to go through some kind of gear-check or interrogation of my skills. So I just gave up. (I am on console, I have never parsed myself, I have no idea where I stand from job to job, and I haven't been fortunate to get the best weapons for BLU and DNC.)
I've gotten the impression from in-game chats and forum posts that some jobs are JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Even if good players with good gear can bring in good utility while bypassing the drawbacks of JA delay/low HP/low defense/low pet acc and all that jazz and still get the job done. And sometimes it is just a matter of not already having the best of the best gear, so perfect cookie-cutter set-ups are done to ensure the win because our casual group isn't "good enough" or some such nonsense.
Balloon hit it on the head when he said that often party leaders are not looking for less efficient jobs, and we ourselves have to think about whether we want to bring the run down or be the one who always begs to come PUP or whatever.
I don't feel like starting from scratch leveling/skilling/gearing/learning a new job all over again. People also don't want an Abyssea-burned, under-skilled, sparks-geared noob in their endgame parties either. It would be nice if I could bring something useful to the table NOW, while people are actually doing the content. (other than being on COR, which isn't always needed)
"Longer run is bad" and "more risk with lesser jobs is bad" are attitudes that we have to deal with and some of us don't have the cajones to keep arguing with it or start our own parties.

[Balloon]

Ballon

:( This always hurts.

I don't even think party leader should start shouting for other jobs. You don't have to look further than GEO and RDM for this, they've got incredible buffs and may, in some situations, be better than a whm/brd combo. Don't even hear people shouting for RDM in rng parties on my server. I don't think it's going to happen, and I've already said in another thread that I think that 6 man content is incredibly prohibitive.

That said, my argument has always been that I want to have the idea of going on lesser known jobs less laughed at. Going to PUP for anything harder than Delve 1 Morimar is kind of a kick in the teeth for the 5 other party members that have to carry you along for your insane whim. This includes setting up your own parties. It's possible, but the quality of the people have to be higher than if you went with other pugs. Can you even imagine what shouting for a pug puppetmaster would look like? ugh.

I'd go COR or WHM everytime, because I don't want to be 'that guy'. I want it so that if I decided pup I wouldn't have to be 'that guy.'

'Hey guys, I'm gonna go pup if that's okay!'
http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/654974/Basket-cartoon-charlieburp-cute-pikachu-Favim.com-238931.0.gif
Fun, but who likes being carried?

(Polygon posted some Pikachi gifs, I really wanted to use one.)

[Karbuncle]

Yessss, this so much. ^
If someone shouts for DD, more than likely they're not looking for my PUP, DRG, or BLU. So I don't even bother.
If someone shouts for healing magic/support, they're not looking for SMN or DNC.
It's really sad.
The thought of leveling/skilling/learning and gearing BRD WHM RNG PLD SAM in a way that would satisfy people's expectations seems rather daunting and stressful to me, and I'm just not interested in it.

I have to disagree, but only very little... at least on the PUP/DRG/BLU front... I used to get invited to things on PUP (before I had better geared DD) by letting them know I was well geared and had a 119 weapon with caped automaton skills. Gimp DD ruin runs, no matter what job they're on, but a good PUP or BLU can be very good in the right situations, you just have to convince the shouter of that. Not every shouter will accept you, because as Draylo said sometimes they just want SAM ONRY cause its the quickest route to victory... but always try, its gotten me in more than a few times.

Anywho...

[Afania]

I have to disagree, but only very little... at least on the PUP/DRG/BLU front... I used to get invited to things on PUP (before I had better geared DD) by letting them know I was well geared and had a 119 weapon with caped automaton skills. Gimp DD ruin runs, no matter what job they're on, but a good PUP or BLU can be very good in the right situations, you just have to convince the shouter of that. Not every shouter will accept you, because as Draylo said sometimes they just want SAM ONRY cause its the quickest route to victory... but always try, its gotten me in more than a few times.

Anywho...

Quickest route to victory on paper, in reality most of the SAM you can find from PUG isn't going to outparse an elite PUP BLU and DNC.

[Vinedrai]

My whm has no gear set other than max cure pot and idle refresh stuff but pugs never question my versatility. Same goes for mnks, sams, rngs are brds. For example, barely anyone asks if you have a DT set. Usually, they don't even ask if you have some acc gear. As long as you are on the "right" job and got a 119 weapon or, in case of brd, 3-4 song harp, you are perfectly acceptable for the most part.

Edit: No matter how well geared and skilled you are on, say, BLU, you are still perceived as a burden to the group. Most people are just so desperate for cookie cutter setups. It doesn't matter if you can spam aoe erase, reliably inflict def down, stun where you can etc. It is all about having the basic gear in today's standards, a 119 weapon and the "right" job.

[Afania]

My whm has no gear set other than max cure pot and idle refresh stuff but pugs never question my versatility. Same goes for mnks, sams, rngs are brds. Barely anyone asks if you have a DT set, they don't even ask if you have some acc gear. As long as you are on the "right" job and got a 119 weapon or, in case of brd, 3-4 song harp.

Edit: No matter how well geared and skilled you are on, say, BLU, you are still perceived as a burden to the group. Most people are just so desperate for cookie cutter setups. It doesn't matter if you can spam aoe erase, reliably inflict def down, stun where you can etc. It is all about having the basic gear in today's standards, a 119 weapon and the "right" job.

That's why 90% of the PUG on my server fails 24/7, lol. I'm not sure if "how other ppl perceived the job" is relevant in this discussion. Most of the time a PUG leader pick job over gear/skill tend to fail because they lack the fundamental understanding of the game mechanic.

I wouldn't bother to join a pt like this tbh. Most of the time I'd explain how none cookie cutter job can work just fine by explaining the game mechanic, if they accept the suggestion then it usually has a chance to win, if they don't then 90% of time the pt tend to fail with perfect setup. This is fact since I often stalk PUG leader on my server about their PUG success rate. The leader that only /shout for cookie cutter job, didn't gear check and refuse to listen to suggestions tend to fail, a lot.

On the other hand, ppl with good understand of game mechanic often accept none cookie cutter jobs and do better than a perfect setup. The real "elitist" which refuse to pt with any less efficient jobs usually don't /shout.

I never understand why ppl are so eager to get accepted by every PUG leader.

[Afania]

On the other hand, I have experienced rejection or been ignored, even without having to go through some kind of gear-check or interrogation of my skills. So I just gave up. (I am on console, I have never parsed myself, I have no idea where I stand from job to job, and I haven't been fortunate to get the best weapons for BLU and DNC.)


Personally, I interrogate/gear-check every job when I make PUG, including SAM and MNK, unless I know the ppl. I believe it's leader's responsibility to filter ppl.

I also interrogate/gear-check/baby sit BRD and WHM, to make sure they don't full time JSE harp.

If you think gear-check and interrogation is job discrimination, then it's not really the case.

I wouldn't invite a BLU nor DNC without 119 weapon unless they're a friend, so does SAM and MNK. DD spot is competitive enough, every /shout can get you 10 /tell from 119 DDs, it's very easy to find a rep. It doesn't matter if you're a SAM or MNK or BLU, no spot for a 115 DD unless it's a friend needing clear. This is barely a job issue.

[Vinedrai]

I'm not sure if "how other ppl perceived the job" is relevant in this discussion.

It is relevant because most people don't have static groups they can run events with. It is a must for too many people to chase after PUGs or make one yourself. You can always bring an inferior DD but you can't go without a healer to anything or a pld for some AA or w/e


I never understand why ppl are so eager to get accepted by every PUG leader.

They don't want to be accepted by every PUG leader, they want to play the job they enjoy while still being relevant. To make their own group to play what they want, they need to be relevant for that role. Even friends won't be happy if you seriously tell them you want to go pup to delve.

[Malithar]

Ummm, the above post offered an idea of "fix" through a new design/redesign of content and a fix of pet jobs mechanic, instead of saying current content can fit pet jobs in.

For the entire thread I've been saying design game content so hybrid get an advantage is better than changing hybrid and turn it into more SAM.

I'm not sure how the concept of "change role" in a raid is equal to increase dmg output, honestly it's not necessary equal to increased output.


I believe in order to fix BST, pet's dmg and mechanics needs to be changed(instead of master's) They also need some other utility that makes a difference. If they can get AoE WS as strong as fell cleave, or survive ability close to PLD, and ranged dmg close to RNG, it can be a pretty useful hybrid even in delve.

I'm pretty sure the bolded is exactly that, an increase in damage output. Not that I think that'd be an actual fix, it'd just go in the wrong direction.


Technically you can "tank" majority of the content on DD jobs already, but that doesn't make them hybrid since that's not really tanking.

And pet jobs technically aren't DDs it seems, so what makes them a hybrid?


Serious question, not counting skillchain dmg(come on, every job can skillchain)exactly which job in this game can't do more than 50% of another DD.

So when looking at these "hybrid" jobs, should we ignore the "utility" that's no longer part of the game that they bring? Cause not counting SCs is ignoring a very large benefit that Sam has. A Tsuru Sam in Adoulin or Mythic Sam is weakened by more DDs due to SC interruption. Sure, it takes a specialized setup and very good gear to make it work, but the fact that it does makes the masses flock to it. Why would you bring a DD that, by your numbers, is 65%ish of the Sam's base DD (ignoring SCs) that will further hamper him?


I thought GEO can do over 50% of SAM according to you. I highly doubt BLM can't do over 50% of SAM when GEO can, unless the mob downright resist magic.

The numbers you're thinking of is Geo/Dnc meleeing on fights such as Ouryu VD, Tenzen VD, and Shadow Lord VD, and it was against a mythic Mnk. In content where magic damage works, it varies on the setup and what exactly the content is, one shotting Skirmish mobs doesn't really leave room for them to get in any licks, while nuking Dho CP mobs can easily keep up if not surpass them as long as they're not riding AM3 very well.

[Balloon]

Not counting Skillchain damage? I mean, christ, right off the bat SAM is getting +16% skillchain damage over everything not NIN MNK and DNC, and the fact that pump out WS faster, can self sc frequently, and use a weaponskill that skillchains of the back of itself doesn't help. Skillchains got a huge buff last update, it's part of the reason SAM is as good as it is now.

SAM's central gimmick is that it accumulates TP and can WS at a really fast rate. It's more suited to skillchaining than most other jobs.

You keep saying that 65% number like it's something we should hold preciously onto because, in the words of Groot "It's better than 64% [I am Groot.]" and that's 119 recommended content, the story gets a little more jaded when you have to factor in the B H2H we have, the fact that if we're not eating petfood our pets are useless and the fact that anything beyond Delve 1 (ilvl12..8? something around there) is a little less forgiving on jobs like that..

Our pets have equivalent A Skills, which was how that balance was supposed to be maintained. But they also have a base of 770 acc with divinator. It's pitiful. It's embarrasing. It can't be buffed with anything but GEO Eva- and RDM Eva- or god forbid, pet rolls. Or like +20 acc with 3 thunder maneuvers, the cost of which eats so rapidly into our dps that it's not worth doing. That's a balance we have to maintain, we can hamper ourselves to boost our pets. That's kind of a neat mechanic, but it doesn't work currently. There should be an ideal threshold, probably changing via content, where as a team we can be potent.

[Afania]

I'm pretty sure the bolded is exactly that, an increase in damage output. Not that I think that'd be an actual fix, it'd just go in the wrong direction.


I think you missed the point that the important part is to switch how the job functions without going back to your mog house. RNG can do ranged dmg but they can't AoE, WAR BLU can AoE but they can't do ranged dmg. BLM can do both AoE and ranged dmg, but it's magical dmg. If the content requires both ranged physical and AoE dmg for an efficient run, a job that's capable of switching job role can get an unique benefit, which makes it different from SAM.

AoE dmg or ranged dmg doesn't necessary mean "increase in dmg output" btw. For example, if pet job A can do 100 dps, 40 from pet, 60 from melee, it can also do 10 AoE dps. V.S another melee job that can do 180 dps. Technically on ranged mode it can only do 40 dps instead of 100, which isn't a dmg increase. However, the melee job with 180 dps can't engage due to AoE, thus it can't beat 40 dps.

So there, you get the 40 dps job in ranged mode killing faster than 180 dps job.

Against 6 mobs it can do 60 AoE dps total, which isn't increased dmg either. But if you can kill each mob with 2 WS, resulting faster kill speed than another job doing 200 dps but engage and kill the target one by one.

Of course current FFXI content isn't designed that way, to require a role change mid run. IMO they should. It's a better design direction than having 22 jobs doing the exactly same DPS with less variety.



And pet jobs technically aren't DDs it seems, so what makes them a hybrid?


Different game mechanic? I'm not sure why do you(and some ppl in this thread) insist that a job must fulfill a specific category in a pt, and if a job deals dmg it's DD role or bust.

I suppose that's the issue of WoW DD/tank/healer forumla brainwashing ppl so players can no longer jump out of the WoW design logic >.>




So when looking at these "hybrid" jobs, should we ignore the "utility" that's no longer part of the game that they bring? Cause not counting SCs is ignoring a very large benefit that Sam has. A Tsuru Sam in Adoulin or Mythic Sam is weakened by more DDs due to SC interruption. Sure, it takes a specialized setup and very good gear to make it work, but the fact that it does makes the masses flock to it. Why would you bring a DD that, by your numbers, is 65%ish of the Sam's base DD (ignoring SCs) that will further hamper him?


I still think boosting SC dmg is a wrong design direction and it should be fixed. The reason why I said "not counting SC" in the calculation is because 1) It is still possible to have 2 DD doing double dark/light. 2) It's easier to calculate.

Either way, if anything I think boosting the SC dmg isn't a good design and it's certainly against the original design concept of this game. This concept works at lv 30 or 50 something when everyone TP slower, thus WS coordination for SC works. Now that we TP so fast, having multiple DD trying to do SC ended up doing less dmg.

As you can see, I advocate sophisticated game design instead of lazy easy fix solution. Boosting BST and make it the same as SAM is a lazy easy fix solution, that's not balance, it's bad design. Redesign tanking/raid and SC system to accomplish true job balance is a better design.

[Balloon]

I still think boosting SC dmg is a wrong design direction and it should be fixed. The reason why I said "not counting SC" in the calculation is because 1) It is still possible to have 2 DD doing double dark/light. 2) It's easier to calculate.

Either way, if anything I think boosting the SC dmg isn't a good design and it's certainly against the original design concept of this game. This concept works at lv 30 or 50 something when everyone TP slower, thus WS coordination for SC works. Now that we TP so fast, having multiple DD trying to do SC ended up doing less dmg.

Ignoring it isn't exactly fair when you want to throw around numbers like 65% and accuse others of lying about numbers. With a 16% buff to Skillchains and their capacity to perform self-sc and ws faster than most other jobs (Not significantly, but hey) you ignore a significant portion of why SAM is as good as it is. With that, I'd say 50% is a much more accurate ESTIMATE (which is what it always was.) than your 65%. The spreadsheet, unfortunately, cannot catch some of the idiosyncrasies of combat.

Two SAMs theoretically (though often not in reality) can line up their ws too, creating back to back skillchains. Something other jobs aren't as capable of.


I still think boosting SC dmg is a wrong design direction and it should be fixed. The reason why I said "not counting SC" in the calculation is because 1) It is still possible to have 2 DD doing double dark/light. 2) It's easier to calculate.

You don't want the game to be as mindless as FFXIV but you want the combat to have.. less mechanics like Skillchaining? Admittedly it's not implemented the best it could be at the minute, but there's incentive to try to at least line up skillchains when possible. It's easier than it once was with TParty being official now. On top of that, it's actually much less of a detriment to hold past 100tp now. I'd say the SC and WS updates were pretty well designed, in my opinion.

[Mitruya]

Personally, I interrogate/gear-check every job when I make PUG, including SAM and MNK, unless I know the ppl. I believe it's leader's responsibility to filter ppl.

I also interrogate/gear-check/baby sit BRD and WHM, to make sure they don't full time JSE harp.

If you think gear-check and interrogation is job discrimination, then it's not really the case.

I wouldn't invite a BLU nor DNC without 119 weapon unless they're a friend, so does SAM and MNK. DD spot is competitive enough, every /shout can get you 10 /tell from 119 DDs, it's very easy to find a rep. It doesn't matter if you're a SAM or MNK or BLU, no spot for a 115 DD unless it's a friend needing clear. This is barely a job issue.

I apologize again for a very not-well-thought-out post. I don't mind being asked, in fact it can be a learning experience to know what to work towards. I guess I was saying there have been times I didn't even get the chance to speak up for myself. I suspected it was more the job I offered, or like you say, they were spammed with so many /tells, it could be that someone they knew better got the spot. So now, I know better than to even respond at all, knowing I don't have "the best" to offer.
I've sort of forgotten the point I was trying to make at the time, perhaps it's just a lack of knowledge of what party leaders really want when they don't tell me anything. And seeing conflicting information here that says "yes you can clear Delve with so-and-so" and then having a different experience on my server.
Another derailment, but, I didn't want you to think that I saw gear-check = job discrimination.

[Afania]

Ignoring it isn't exactly fair when you want to throw around numbers like 65% and accuse others of lying about numbers. With a 16% buff to Skillchains and their capacity to perform self-sc and ws faster than most other jobs (Not significantly, but hey) you ignore a significant portion of why SAM is as good as it is. With that, I'd say 50% is a much more accurate ESTIMATE (which is what it always was.) than your 65%. The spreadsheet, unfortunately, cannot catch some of the idiosyncrasies of combat.

Two SAMs theoretically (though often not in reality) can line up their ws too, creating back to back skillchains. Something other jobs aren't as capable of.



You don't want the game to be as mindless as FFXIV but you want the combat to have.. less mechanics like Skillchaining? Admittedly it's not implemented the best it could be at the minute, but there's incentive to try to at least line up skillchains when possible. It's easier than it once was with TParty being official now. On top of that, it's actually much less of a detriment to hold past 100tp now. I'd say the SC and WS updates were pretty well designed, in my opinion.


Until spreadsheet can calculate skillchain DPS, it's still not exactly fair to calculate skillchain dmg in a DPS discussion. I'm not sure why 2 SAM can create back to back WS but other job can't? Most jobs has access to empy WS.

SC design is wrong simply because in a game design, 2 player hitting 1 mob shouldn't do less than 1 player, period. You don't need a masters in game design to know that.

[Balloon]

Until spreadsheet can calculate skillchain DPS, it's still not exactly fair to calculate skillchain dmg in a DPS discussion. I'm not sure why 2 SAM can create back to back WS but other job can't? Most jobs has access to empy WS.

SC design is wrong simply because in a game design, 2 player hitting 1 mob shouldn't do less than 1 player, period. You don't need a masters in game design to know that.

I will conceed that while it is true that under ideal circumstances 2 SAM do beat 1 SAM (Barely, TP overflow is basically the reason for this if I understand correctly), it is harder to set up. As I said, the skillchain system is not perfect. It's easier for one person to do that, but even with 2 you wildly underestimate how much skillcahins are doing. as the number goes up, the damage from skillchains goes down. Executing them is harder. It's dumb. I agree with you there.

+16% is nothing to scoff at, on top of this, I've already mentioned that they're more efficient other jobs. A puppetmaster cannot do this as efficiently as a samurai, and if they could they'd be doing 16% less damage just from the bonus alone, along with the fact you're probably doing less weaponskill. If you had a kenkoken you'd be sacrificing the 40% boost on Stringing Pummel to try and make lights.

A samurai can hit 7 back to back lights, and 5 is pretty easy to achieve. You really think puppetmaster or.. hell.. most jobs can achieve that? But Samurai is freaking broken. 65% is .. that's looking damn toasty right about now. It is under 50%. Sure, WS Dmg + White damage may be 65%, but get real if you think that is an accurate representation of the job or the scenarios it engages in.

You can't authoritatively throw out numbers like 65%, chastise others for estimates while also ignoring a big part of samurais damage. I asked people who are a lot more math savvy than I am.



<Balloon> So.. puppetmaster.. 2 puppetmaster vs 2 samurai. How much worse would you be doing? Under 65% of their total damage?
<Byrth> I'd assume so
<kjLotus> a lot
<kjLotus> pretty sure samurai is basically just a broken job
<kjLotus> it's kind of retarded


<Balloon> 2sam?
<kjLotus> depends if they fudo mindlessly or try to make skillchains
<Balloon> generally better now to hold and try to make sc?
<kjLotus> probably
<kjLotus> i never get to do any events anymore :(
<kjLotus> doing 5 step light is pretty ez with 2 sam


<Balloon> And just for reference, dumb question I know, but that's something PUP would have a really hard time doing correct?
<Byrth> yeah, Balloon

[Karbuncle]

I think peoples view of PUP is still a little fudged, unfortunately theres no real place to just "do" this stuff, Delve means someone will be slowed, someone might die, buffs might get dispelled... I wish there was just a "Training Dummy" somewhere, like in FFXIV, that acted like Fortifications (Recovering to full HP after reaching 50%) that you could endlessly beat to determine better builds... I ... I'll brb, I kinda want to make that statement in thread suggestion form.

But seriously, how awesome would that be? You could set its level (Maybe for the sake of easy programming, Lv1, Lv50, Lv99, Lv119, Lv129), and just beat the sh*t out of it unrestricted to determine a good baseline DPS and the strength of your current builds. Maybe just plop it down in the Mog Garden or something (since you can invite friends to your mog garden, it'd be a nice place to test it).

Seriously though BRB Threading this.

[Afania]

I will conceed that while it is true that under ideal circumstances 2 SAM do beat 1 SAM (Barely, TP overflow is basically the reason for this if I understand correctly), it is harder to set up. As I said, the skillchain system is not perfect. It's easier for one person to do that, but even with 2 you wildly underestimate how much skillcahins are doing. as the number goes up, the damage from skillchains goes down. Executing them is harder. It's dumb. I agree with you there.


So now you finally agree that OP SC dmg is the real culprit why SAM is OP? :)

IMO, half the reason why SAM is OP is because dev didn't foresee buffed fudo can do insane solo multi-step double light dmg, personally I think it's close to exploit and it's against the original design concept of buffed SC dmg. It certainly needs a nerf/fix.






+16% is nothing to scoff at, on top of this, I've already mentioned that they're more efficient other jobs. A puppetmaster cannot do this as efficiently as a samurai, and if they could they'd be doing 16% less damage just from the bonus alone, along with the fact you're probably doing less weaponskill. If you had a kenkoken you'd be sacrificing the 40% boost on Stringing Pummel to try and make lights.


It's not that I purposely ignored SC dmg to favor none SAM jobs in a DPS argument, it's more about DPS spreadsheet can't calculate SC dmg correctly as the situation varied too much.

Until we find a way to include SC dmg in a DPS discussion properly, the only info we can use is parse result, which you failed to present in the entire argument anyways.

White dmg/WS dmg wise, most jobs shouldn't do less than 50% of SAM.



It is under 50%. Sure, WS Dmg + White damage may be 65%, but get real if you think that is an accurate representation of the job or the scenarios it engages in.



This is obviously spreadsheet numbers, NO spreadsheet number can ever present an accurate representation of the job. For example, according to the last yorcia parse, 85% of SAM's dmg came from WS, only 15% came from white dmg. On the other hand, more than 50% of MNK's dmg came from white dmg. Basically, most h2h/1h job should have higher white dmg than SAM as well.

Therefore, if you're fighting a NM that spams amnesia like crazy, SAM's DPS would drop lower than other DDs, it's something spreadsheet wouldn't show.

You can say "but spreadsheet numbers it's sooo different from real scenario". If that's the case, present a parse result with your current gear set v.s another SAM wearing same lv of set. That's the only way ppl can present an opinion in a DPS discussion, parse or spreadsheet.

But you provide none of them anyways. You argue that spreadsheet number doesn't count because it's not accurate, on the same time you refuse to play PUP in events because you think it's a burden to your friends. How are you going to provide legit info to support your POV in a discussion?




You can't authoritatively throw out numbers like 65%, chastise others for estimates while also ignoring a big part of samurais damage. I asked people who are a lot more math savvy than I am.

I think you didn't ask properly. The way you asked sounds like 2 SAM doing 5 step SC v.s 2 PUP WS mindlessly.

Which obviously favors SAM, in fact even 2 SAM mindlessly doing fudo fudo light can probably generate bigger DPS gap than 2 PUP doing VS VS light as well, due to fudo usually has bigger number than VS(as far as I know, please correct me if that's wrong)

In the case of "Balloon wants to play with his friends on PUP", you can invite SAM as another DD instead of double PUP, have SAM close the SC with fudo. Stringing Pummel is irrelevant in your case unless you're a mythic PUP, so it's not that much of DPS lose if you don't use it.

In that case, having your PUP in a pt with another SAM shouldn't end up less than 50% of another equally geared SAM doing SC in the same way.

You're basically setting up a scenario that favors SAM and create a bigger gap, then come back to argue that X job do less than half of SAM because certain setup favors SAM. If you can do that, I can go on and create scenario that favor h2h dmg more as well.

According to spreadsheet, PUP is around 60%~65% of TP/WS dmg of SAM, nothing more and nothing less. If I'm gearing wrong on those jobs, feel free to point it out. But don't try to make the gap bigger by setting up a specific scenario like"2 PUP can't do more than half dmg of 2 SAM" just to prove your point is correct....what about 1 PUP and 1 SAM v.s 2 SAMs?

[zataz]

Because that's a whole heap of nonsense, the game has never really been like that at all. What did BST solo other than 1-75 and a few, select nms? The game has always been tiered like that, and all I want is for some of those tier lists to be changed. I don't actually think THF should surpass sam, but it's not even close, and the benefits of th don't fix that. Jobs should be closer to each other, not equal.

Jobs should be able to participate in all content, and it should be effective. It's not effective to do a Marjami run without a group of rangers, what I want it a situation where, because you've shouted for an hour already, someone goes "Well we might as well shout for x" not "Oh we might as well stop shouting."

Using the 75 model now is so baffling to me, it's not the same game, and some of the jobs should be reflected to change that. Because it's a waste of dev time to create solo content that won't give good rewards.

news flash idc what job u level or what gear u have. i would never invite u to my party just cause i make the party i can be picky =P

[Olor]

20 pages and absolutely no dev response. Impressive.

[Mitruya]

Since I don't read/speak Japanese, I am genuinely curious if: a) the Japanese players aren't as selfish as English-speakers, and therefore have an easier time grouping up with various set-ups and getting stuff done, and the job drawbacks don't bother them as much; or b) they choose efficiency with the flavor of the month set-ups also and it doesn't really bother them that other jobs get left out. Either way are they even making a ruckus at all about this? Perhaps I should add a c) their populations are high enough to make parties easily.
Also, I am saddened by those who poke fun at people who want to quit the game ... after awhile you just get tired of paying money to be lonely in an MMO, or whatever the reason may be.

[Karbuncle]

the JP go with about the same set ups we do. very little changes.

[Rubicant82]

Most of the NA/EU set ups from JP players, or BG members whom I think are a mix of players (if they still play I know they were called out in FFXIV specifically as a community those developers wants to make extra challenging content just to see if they could beat it as fast as they did the content in FFXIV rather funny actually).

[WoW]

20 pages and absolutely no dev response. Impressive.

SE is clueless imo; lol, 13 years and counting. i mean, think about it, someone had to tell them to implement pet buffs (Food, etc), players should not have to tell producers how to run their game. Don't get me wrong, suggestions? Sure, but every little error, balance issue, mechanics etc; that is disturbing. I stand firm, it is SE's fault; one update, lol, one update to break sam (Whom was already powerful).

Sam > your favorite job, unless it is a koga sam.

Rngs are nothing to sneeze at neither.

[Zarchery]

20 pages and absolutely no dev response. Impressive.

No response to what? You're not making a suggestion. You're making a general complaint.

I still can't keep up with the revolving door of whipping boy pet jobs. What happened to everyone hating Rangers?

[Rubicant82]

What happened to everyone hating Rangers?

Shoosh you :E
Leave us Rangers out of this :E

[Olor]

No response to what? You're not making a suggestion. You're making a general complaint.

I still can't keep up with the revolving door of whipping boy pet jobs. What happened to everyone hating Rangers?

I am suggesting they nerf monk and sam so that other DD jobs can play. That, sir, is a suggestion.

Or they could buff other jobs.

I don't hate rangers cause this is the first time I've seen them used outside of voidwatch in years.

[Janethetaru]

Bite me, Olor. It's a Japanese game, of course Samurai will be the most powerful DD job. Get over yourself and level moar jobs.

Y U NO 22/22 @99 !?