Any chance we can have HP Bayld become more available? [Archive]

Tinytimtaru

08-07-2014, 06:52 AM

Is there any chance the two new Mythic Quests (RUN/GEO) can be "balanced" out to be roughly equivalent to all other job Mythic quests?

Specifically I'm talking about making "Linen" versions of the HP Bayld items needed which would contain ~99 items and having these made available more readily, as we see in Salvage runs. Apparently 'Cotton" pouch versions of these already exist, but I've never seen nor heard of anyone getting these in a WKR, so the drop rate must be absurd.

Currently on my server, prices of HP Bayld range from 30-40k, compared to Alex which have dropped to 7-8k (and are currently being over-farmed now that the fishing nerf was implemented). So 1 Ergon Weapon is about equivalent to 4 Mythics (not comparing other aspects of the quests of course – Coalition to Legend vs. Assaults, Einherjar vs. Delve Boss items, etc)

I can farm 150 Alex solo in about 1hr, whereas to farm that many HP Bayld through all means WKR, Rieves, buying with Bayld (10k = 1 HP) would take me around 1 week+, so basically unless you're a player that has amassed 500mil gil somehow, these new Ergon weapons are wildly unattainable compared to all other job Mythics.

Can we have balance... please?

Tiny

Damane

08-08-2014, 02:58 AM

actually an ergon weapon (assumeing 30k hp bayld and not higher) costs: 13099x 30k = 392'970'000 gil, whereas a mythic costs (lets assume 8.5k per alex, at least on myserver thats the lowest you get mostly) = 30000x8500=255'000'000, so an ergon weapon costs 1.5 mythics (at this moment) so no it doesnt cost 4 mythics ¬.¬

EDIT: to contribute to your question, I do agree that there isnt enough HP-Bayld in circulation. They should add the rate up a bit (just a tiny bit).

Xerius

08-08-2014, 05:22 AM

Malithar

08-08-2014, 06:53 AM

The problem isn't right now. It costs so much right now because they are bought almost immediately so demand is pretty high since they're rather new. However, since there's no efficient way to solo these the problem is going to be in about a year when WKRs don't draw the crowds they used to.

You're on Bahamut, where are you getting the idea that the demand is so high? Just takes 1 or 2 people to be making a weapon for there to be a demand. Demand certainly isn't very high though, prices have dropped down to less than 20k, though due to supply being short, 30k~ish ones are still bought. Saw someone shouting off almost 300 at 19k and someone shouting off over a thousand of them at 22k earlier today (though this one mighta been HMPs, I honestly forget).

I do agree though that without some radical changes at some point, these will be incredibly difficult to make.

Damane

08-09-2014, 12:52 AM

You're on Bahamut, where are you getting the idea that the demand is so high? Just takes 1 or 2 people to be making a weapon for there to be a demand. Demand certainly isn't very high though, prices have dropped down to less than 20k, though due to supply being short, 30k~ish ones are still bought. Saw someone shouting off almost 300 at 19k and someone shouting off over a thousand of them at 22k earlier today (though this one mighta been HMPs, I honestly forget).

I do agree though that without some radical changes at some point, these will be incredibly difficult to make.

yeah but it only needs a slight increase, if they increase it too much it would get way too easy to finish those weapons. And those arent weak mythics by any means, they are pritty strong. i think what they should do is have an option to turn all RoE WKR KIs in for a guaranteed Linen and raise the pouch drop rate on WKR slightly. Even this might be maybe too much of an increase on a currency only 2 (not so popular) jobs use.

Grekumah

08-09-2014, 03:52 AM

Tinytimtaru

08-09-2014, 04:08 AM

Afania

08-09-2014, 04:25 AM

Since Ergon Weapons have been set as extremely strong weapons, the development team does not have any plans to ease up on the process for obtaining them. With that said, there are no plans at this time to make high purity bayld more readily available.

This doesn't make sense though, Koga and Yagrush is just as powerful/job changing as ergon weapons, and it's 1/3 of price to build. Someone on BG just posted 15 mythics in his inv, gonna collect them all!

Vasch

08-09-2014, 04:43 AM

I know several players that are buying up any decently priced HP-Bayld on the off chance that it becomes used for any weapons for the other jobs in the future. There are others who buy any that they see for under 30-40k and mark them up so that people making these new weapons have to pay much more for it. Both of these factors directly affect the prices of HP-Bayld and have set the bar much higher than what was likely intended.

dasva

08-09-2014, 04:50 AM

Ok that's that then I guess. See you in about 3 years when my Stage 3 requirement is done then I guess.

Meanwhile I'll enjoy seeing everyone else wrapping up their Mythics (many of which are significantly more "powerful" than RUN/GEO) getting completed in about 2 months time because Alex is in pretty much everyone's bazaars for rock bottom prices (dipped to around 6-7k on my server vs. 30-40k per HP Bayld)

Considering these two jobs are barely ever asked to join in endgame activities, giving them the absolutely hardest weapon quests in the game, seems kind of insulting to me.

I think SE needs clarify what they mean, when they use the term "balance."

I think you are underestimating how powerful run/geo mythics are.... probably because you are trying to compare performances on those jobs with them instead of the weapons themselves. And well both jobs are kinda flawed compared to their counter parts

RUN mythic is probably the better DD weapon out there, gswds have the most dmg ws out there right now and even it's ergon ws is really strong AND the best defensive weapon in the game by miles... it's just on a job that doesn't have DD traits or job abilities and spends a lot of it's time using jas and spells instead of meleeing. I'd be drks best weapon if they could equip it.

Idris is the best magic dmg club in the game right now by a lot. It also increases geo spells a lot (seriously right now you can get -83% att with it allow you to with some bio set mob attack to 1 no matter how high it is and they are going already planning on increasing it's effect on geo spells) and neatly solves the problem of luopon survivability.... it's just luopon survivability shouldn't have been such a big issue in the first place, staffs will do better dmg unless you dual wield clubs because well you can dual wield clubs, and geo without Idris is more suited for alliance content because of how it's buffs/debuffs are. But really what mythic would you compare it to? Wouldn't make sense to compare it to a DD and cors doesn't help buffing and brd only enhances duration. Kinda making this by far the best mythic for buff/debuff heavy job. It's just brd gets things like empyrean 4 song harp (though that's pretty hard to make now) and ghorn... and it can prebuff.

I admit the prices are kinda annoying but you can't straight up compare cost of each one. Doing that makes it seem like ergon are 5 times more expensive but with how much you actually have to get with your server prices the mythic would come out to 180-210 mil and the ergon 392-523 so about double... though that's going to change a bit by server like over here last I checked alex was still 7-8k and HP was more like 20-30k heck like Mal said sometimes even less than 20k each which makes them fairly comparable in price and when you consider the time saved not having to farm tokens, assaults, and ichor possibly cheaper really. Heck right now I'm just using my mules to run couriers assignments real quick... which levels them up in the process as well as makes pretty fast cruor and can be done with any level no gear no skill etc. Eventually I could probably lvl and merit them up good enough to do salvage with balyd gear for even more farming lol

The hard part is convincing people to part with the millions of baldy they have saved up from doing assignments that they aren't using and then teaching them how rpgs work so they can convert them because apparently no one seems to understand that sometimes in rpgs you have to click all options on npcs to unlock other options

dasva

08-09-2014, 04:55 AM

This doesn't make sense though, Koga and Yagrush is just as powerful/job changing as ergon weapons, and it's 1/3 of price to build. Someone on BG just posted 15 mythics in his inv, gonna collect them all!

He was probably a blinkionare lol. Probably has more to do with having capped gil and boredom and how long mythics have been out than actual ease/cost to make ergons

Karbuncle

08-09-2014, 05:19 AM

This doesn't make sense though, Koga and Yagrush is just as powerful/job changing as ergon weapons, and it's 1/3 of price to build. Someone on BG just posted 15 mythics in his inv, gonna collect them all!

Well, Ergon weapons once finished are 119... So lets compare them to 119 Mythics.

First you have 30,000 Alex, at 8k a pop, is roughly 240,000,000 Gil. Then, you need 5 Mulciber's Scoria, which if you can even find, are going to price you around 6-15 mil based on your server... lets middle ground that to about 10mil, meaning an additional 50 mil. So a Mythic is going to cost you 290,000,000 gil, this isn't including time invested in redoing the Assaults and such, since Ergons have some time invested too.

Ergon weapons require... 100 + 500 + 2500 + 9999 for all stages, totalling 13,099 HPB... which are 10-50k realistically, but I'll average 30k for the calculation here. 392,970,000... Next, the items that you need for each stage, I'm removing the Stones from the equation as pricing them is hard to do, and for at least Ghastly/Verd, you can get a lot of them through Sparks (Trading Kupons for Onyx Fragments)

Rockfin Tooth, Gabbrath Meat - 1,150,000
Waktza Crest, Yggdreant Bole, Cehuetzi Pelt - 2.5mil give or take.
a Pristine Yggrete Crystal - 2.5mil Plasm, which is about 8 Yggdreant boles worth, which is about 8mil itself, but this is more opportunity cost so i wont add it to the equation.

At the end of the day, a Ergon Weapon will cost you in the range of... 396,000,000. Give or take about 100 Million more than a Mythic to 119. So in conclusion, this is the breakdown of price cost, plus or minus a few things, and I have no doubt Ergon would break 400 Mil if i include price of the Stones and gil lost trading in 2.5mil plasm.

Mythic: 290,000,000
Ergon: 396,000,000

Ophannus

08-09-2014, 05:46 AM

Alexandrites were 20-25k each for months after Mythics came out and stabilized at around 12-16k for years only dropping to 8-10k recently with Salvage v2 and being able to enter solo. HP Bayld will drop in price when the novelty wears off. One problem is people don't do reives anymore because there's no more incentive(last was job capes) people just use Home Points and Waypoints to get where they need.

Perhaps by adding additional unique equipment to Reives, people will do them again. Job specific earrings? Rings? Necks? Adding these incrementally every few months will make people spam Reives and thus more HP Bayld will come to the market. At least people did Salvage for equipment if they didn't need Alexandrite, there's little incentive to do Reives for HP Bayld to sell if you aren't making an Ergon Weapon because Bayld is very cheap and there's relatively few things to purchase with them(most of the Traditional Armor and Traditional Weapons are very obsolete to most players who have delve and skirmish equipment, leaving most players with millions of bayld and nothing to spend it on except HP Bayld, which isn't a very good return for them either.

Sapphire

08-09-2014, 05:52 AM

At least there is a way to turn Bayld into HQ Bayld.

Alas, my voidstones and tears don't turn into HMPs and Cinders nearly often enough...

Tinytimtaru

08-09-2014, 06:03 AM

I would definitely consider a WHM Yagrush or SAM Koga more game changing than a RUN's in terms of party dynamics and endgame application. But I guess this does have alot to do with endgame job desirability. RUNs and or GEO do not see endgame opportunity while PLD and BRD continue to dominate over those cookie-cutter job slots.

So really, making Ergon weapons so much harder to get than other job Mythics, given that those jobs already outperform RUN/GEO without Mythics, was either a major blunder on SEs part or shear job discrimination. Either way it shows a complete lack of awareness about the current state of this game.

This is not the year 2008, the server economies are in shambles since the fishing nerf, unless you were a fish botter that had amassed capped gil, people just don't have that kind of currency anymore to make these weapons. Everyone here is undercutting each other on Alex and Delve boss items just to scrap by.

This was not the time to introduce two weapons that would cost 400mil to produce, for two jobs that no one wants to chance bringing to endgame events. The correct approach would have been to make these much easier to get, so GEO/RUN could get up to par and only then maybe, just maybe, people's mindsets might start to shift to not always shouting for PLD and BRDs and being open to trying the new jobs for those traditional roles.

Karbuncle

08-09-2014, 06:06 AM

Shame is, GEO is really game-breaking with Idris/Bell... Can provide quite insane buffs/debuffs.

Tinytimtaru

08-09-2014, 06:14 AM

Well I think the shame is that even if they had made Idris let you have 2 luopons out or RUNs Epeolatry have 4 runes, you know what, I'd still be seeing the same shouts, day in, day out <<PLD, 3-song+ BRD, WHM, RNG, MNK>> (do you have it?)

Zarchery

08-09-2014, 07:13 AM

I didn't realize people actually used HP Bayld. I've been throwing mine away.

Can't you buy it with regular Bayld?

Karbuncle

08-09-2014, 07:21 AM

If you've been throwing it away, you've essentially been throwing away 30k per HP Bayld.

Wonder how much gil you've tossed :D

Stompa

08-09-2014, 08:06 AM

At least there is a way to turn Bayld into HQ Bayld.

Alas, my voidstones and tears don't turn into HMPs and Cinders nearly often enough...

If SE let me finish my Empys using HP bayld, I would hold a street party and buy expensive drinks and luxury BBQ for everyone.

I got like 4000 HP bayld without trying *at all* just half asleep in Lair Rieves/Colo rieves/WKR , trading in useless bayld from easy coalition assignments. All on solo, unlike my empys which require thousands of alliance runs, and yield 99% trees/fish/meds with capped proc lights and capped KI's.

Malithar

08-09-2014, 08:15 AM

Shame is, GEO is really game-breaking with Idris/Bell... Can provide quite insane buffs/debuffs.

A good Idris Geo is pretty ridiculous already. I'm excited for the buffs coming on Tuesday, depending on what they do, the job is gonna be near OP. It already feels that way at times.

Tinytimtaru

08-09-2014, 08:26 AM

I got like 4000 HP bayld without trying *at all* just half asleep in Lair Rieves/Colo rieves/WKR , trading in useless bayld from easy coalition assignments. All on solo, unlike my empys which require thousands of alliance runs, and yield 99% trees/fish/meds with capped proc lights and capped KI's.

Wow, I'm lucky if I see 1 HP Bayld every 4 Colonization Rieve. So for me to get 4000 would be equivalent to 16,000 Colo runs. Or 4000 WKR, or 4000 Legend level Scouts Coalition runs (best one so far with 3 Imps yields 11k Bayld).

You must be really busy not trying "at all" lol

Stompa

08-09-2014, 01:04 PM

Wow, I'm lucky if I see 1 HP Bayld every 4 Colonization Rieve. So for me to get 4000 would be equivalent to 16,000 Colo runs. Or 4000 WKR, or 4000 Legend level Scouts Coalition runs (best one so far with 3 Imps yields 11k Bayld).

You must be really busy not trying "at all" lol

I had like 8m bayld before the HP version up, so I just spent that on HP.

I get HP all day long on easy lair rieves. And they are like 5 min repop lol.

And I spam legend assignments too. It all adds up. I sold all my HP for 16k each.

And the point I was making was that its all super easy solo content which drops HP, unlike VW which is alliance+proc and has a terrible drop rate.

Seriously if SE let me choose HP instead of HMP/cinders for my empys, I would light fireworks and dance around for joy. :P

Xerius

08-09-2014, 01:23 PM

You're on Bahamut, where are you getting the idea that the demand is so high?

I probably should have specified that I meant relatively high, with them being still newish and all. I didn't mean to imply that there were hundreds of people tripping over each other lining up to get their weapons but demand is probably as high as it's ever going to be without changes to the ease of obtaining them. As time goes on and HP bayld becomes rarer and rarer more and more people will drop out of the race and try to cut their loses and they'll go the same route as Empyrean weapons. That's what happens when you attach upgrade items that you literally need thousands of to content that you need multiple people to do and have them drop only 1~20 at a time.

Zarchery

08-09-2014, 06:32 PM

If you've been throwing it away, you've essentially been throwing away 30k per HP Bayld.

Wonder how much gil you've tossed :D

Probably not a huge amount. I'd estimate I've tossed no more than 5. I like to solo XP sometimes down in Outer Ra'Kaznar, but there's a Colonization Reive that's always getting in my way. I've gotten several HP Bayld which I didn't want to bother bazaaring and like 9 JSE capes in the process.

Afania

08-09-2014, 07:22 PM

Well, Ergon weapons once finished are 119... So lets compare them to 119 Mythics.

First you have 30,000 Alex, at 8k a pop, is roughly 240,000,000 Gil. Then, you need 5 Mulciber's Scoria, which if you can even find, are going to price you around 6-15 mil based on your server... lets middle ground that to about 10mil, meaning an additional 50 mil. So a Mythic is going to cost you 290,000,000 gil, this isn't including time invested in redoing the Assaults and such, since Ergons have some time invested too.

Ergon weapons require... 100 + 500 + 2500 + 9999 for all stages, totalling 13,099 HPB... which are 10-50k realistically, but I'll average 30k for the calculation here. 392,970,000... Next, the items that you need for each stage, I'm removing the Stones from the equation as pricing them is hard to do, and for at least Ghastly/Verd, you can get a lot of them through Sparks (Trading Kupons for Onyx Fragments)

Rockfin Tooth, Gabbrath Meat - 1,150,000
Waktza Crest, Yggdreant Bole, Cehuetzi Pelt - 2.5mil give or take.
a Pristine Yggrete Crystal - 2.5mil Plasm, which is about 8 Yggdreant boles worth, which is about 8mil itself, but this is more opportunity cost so i wont add it to the equation.

At the end of the day, a Ergon Weapon will cost you in the range of... 396,000,000. Give or take about 100 Million more than a Mythic to 119. So in conclusion, this is the breakdown of price cost, plus or minus a few things, and I have no doubt Ergon would break 400 Mil if i include price of the Stones and gil lost trading in 2.5mil plasm.

Mythic: 290,000,000
Ergon: 396,000,000

PW drop is 3, not 5. Alex cost 7.5k on my server, that's 225,000,000. Scoria cost 7.5M on my server as well, so that's 247M per mythic.

Ergon needs to farm legendary rank and plasm as well, so you can't really argue that Ergon needs less time if you have gil.

Afania

08-09-2014, 07:29 PM

I think you are underestimating how powerful run/geo mythics are.... probably because you are trying to compare performances on those jobs with them instead of the weapons themselves. And well both jobs are kinda flawed compared to their counter parts

RUN mythic is probably the better DD weapon out there, gswds have the most dmg ws out there right now and even it's ergon ws is really strong AND the best defensive weapon in the game by miles... it's just on a job that doesn't have DD traits or job abilities and spends a lot of it's time using jas and spells instead of meleeing. I'd be drks best weapon if they could equip it.

Last time I checked spreadsheet, using TP/WS set posted on AH forum, RUN ergon weapon with AM3 spamming reso can only do around 85% of dmg of Tsuru SAM on same target under same buff. I didn't add lunge/swipe dmg, but it has long recast time and you need runes to do it, which lowers DPS to put them back up, so I didn't calculate it.

A koga SAM can do a lot more than Tsuru SAM, and if you count the DPS lose to get 300 TP to activate(RUN probably get TP slower than SAM, mind you), then ergon GS is no where close to Koga's dmg. You can' compare DPS directly and say ergon GS is stronger DD weapon than mythic.

It's more of a tank weapon than DD weapon, if you want a DD weapon you'd build koga for cheaper price. It's certainly job changing enough to justify the price, but so does better mythics(which are cheaper)

Tinytimtaru

08-09-2014, 09:53 PM

I had like 8m bayld before the HP version up, so I just spent that

As did I, that got me 8 stacks of 99 HP..... out of 132 stacks of HP needed to take this quest to conclusion. Drain every resource you have, spend all the gil you can, this will barely put a dent in the number of HPs required.

2 JPs i know on my server have actually finished theirs. From what I hear their entire LS donated all their Bayld to help them accomplish this. Now that I think about it, SE maybe made these with that type of cultural mindset in place. If so they sure did underestimate North American player mentality then lol. Its way more, every man for himself.

Afania

08-09-2014, 11:31 PM

As did I, that got me 8 stacks of 99 HP..... out of 132 stacks of HP needed to take this quest to conclusion. Drain every resource you have, spend all the gil you can, this will barely put a dent in the number of HPs required.

2 JPs i know on my server have actually finished theirs. From what I hear their entire LS donated all their Bayld to help them accomplish this. Now that I think about it, SE maybe made these with that type of cultural mindset in place. If so they sure did underestimate North American player mentality then lol. Its way more, every man for himself.

Well, 400m gil without LS donation is pretty doable if you're hardcore. It's just......a bit more gil than mythic for same weapon class.

Karbuncle

08-10-2014, 12:45 AM

PW drop is 3, not 5. Alex cost 7.5k on my server, that's 225,000,000. Scoria cost 7.5M on my server as well, so that's 247M per mythic.

Ergon needs to farm legendary rank and plasm as well, so you can't really argue that Ergon needs less time if you have gil.

I hit the "Show All" List on FFXIAH and went from there, averaging the prices on all servers as to be fair. Otherwise at the time I posted it, there was 1 seller on Asura for Mulcib Scoria... for 10mil.

That said, I had assumed PW drops were 5, same as Relic, didn't bother to look :\

Last time I checked spreadsheet, using TP/WS set posted on AH forum, RUN ergon weapon with AM3 spamming reso can only do around 85% of dmg of Tsuru SAM on same target under same buff. I didn't add lunge/swipe dmg, but it has long recast time and you need runes to do it, which lowers DPS to put them back up, so I didn't calculate it.

A koga SAM can do a lot more than Tsuru SAM, and if you count the DPS lose to get 300 TP to activate(RUN probably get TP slower than SAM, mind you), then ergon GS is no where close to Koga's dmg. You can' compare DPS directly and say ergon GS is stronger DD weapon than mythic.

It's more of a tank weapon than DD weapon, if you want a DD weapon you'd build koga for cheaper price. It's certainly job changing enough to justify the price, but so does better mythics(which are cheaper)

I agree, least I think I do!

Comparing something like RUN/GEO Ergons to DD Mythics in terms of raw damage output is a meaningless comparisons, Since RUN/GEO Mythics are more closely like Yagrush and Burtgang, and those are not used for the DD potential, but for the utility...while its DPS is a nice bonus, its real potential and power comes from PDTII-25%, allowing RUN to get -75% PDT with it.

Jadey

08-10-2014, 03:52 AM

I had like 8m bayld before the HP version up, so I just spent that on HP.

I get HP all day long on easy lair rieves. And they are like 5 min repop lol.

And I spam legend assignments too. It all adds up. I sold all my HP for 16k each.

And the point I was making was that its all super easy solo content which drops HP, unlike VW which is alliance+proc and has a terrible drop rate.

Seriously if SE let me choose HP instead of HMP/cinders for my empys, I would light fireworks and dance around for joy. :P

As an Idris owner (and someone who personally farmed over 20 million bayld outside of drops/purchases) I think you're exaggerating your HPB rate. Looking back at my 2+ months of farming bayld/HPB, Lair reives where I was soloing the reive from 100-0% were about a 3-4% drop rate for HPB and colonization reives were a bit better, somewhere between 9-17% depending on the area. You do occasionally get runs where you're hitting 3+ HPB in a row from reives but those were anomalies. And continuous farming of bayld/HPB is possible, but none of it is terribly efficient.

Legend assignments? Let's take a best-case scenario where you already have the imprimatur timer down to 5 hours and get max bayld per assignment (Dho/Woh Gates Peacekeeper's, 5000 xp/bayld for 1 imprimatur) you get ~33 assignments per week * 5000 bayld is 165000 - or 16 HPB. More realistically you're doing Courier's Drifts to Biv#4 for 4750/assignment and getting 156750 (15HPB)/week. Every little bit helps, sure, but a week of assignments gets you one tenth of one percent of the way to an Ergon.

There are a few places where you can bounce between Lair Reives if you can drop them fast enough (I preferred the lairs in Foret between Bivs #3 and #4) which gives you two lairs every five minutes. The deeper Foret lairs give you an average of 2500 bayld/reive as long as you're alone (2000 for the #3 reive, 3000 for the #4 reive) so that's 5000 every 5 minutes. That's 60000 bayld/hour plus whatever lucky HPB drops you get. That's decent, but I found it better when nobody was in the zone to do a full clear of the 10 Colonization Reives around Foret and then hit the Lairs while you wait for the Colos to repop. Each Colo is ~3000 by itself alongside a better HPB droprate, plus you get another two easy lairs by the FS that give 1000/1500. A full Foret run takes less than a half hour and yields ~37500 bayld + the 30000 from a half hour of lair bouncing.

If you just want Colo reives/want to make cash outside of the HPB you can do the Ra'Kaznar Colos since they have a 15 minute repop. You have a ~3-4 minute walk between the two reives but generally you can kill both before the first one repops. That reive also ends up giving ~6000 bayld and a much higher HPB drop rate (plus those high-value Ra'ka heads) so a lower bayld/hr rate of 48000 might be something you're OK with. This also has the benefit of being a long enough reive that having other people there generally doesn't cut into your personal bayld count all that much.

Overall I think HPB/bayld conversions in general are in an odd sort of spot. HPB doesn't have much of a use for at least 95% of the current playerbase (and I think I may be underestimating it considering the current # of completed Ergon weapons across servers) so the price should be low. On the flip side, dedicated bayld farming - unlike other types of currency farming like Dynamis and Salvage - provides a much lower raw number, no real benefit for non-WKR outside of the bayld (capes are ok, but most people likely already have the ones they want) and actively penalizes having more than a few people doing it at the same time due to repop timers. Due to that, plus the apathy of the general server population to actually farm it, that keeps prices high, especially for those who DO farm a lot of it and understand that bulk sales will be valued higher since buyers hate picking through bazaars for random 1-2 HPB sales.

As Ophannus said, I think a push to add more incentive to doing reives could help. Maybe the rush for Alluvion Skirmish parts will help with that for a time. We'll see next week!

Stompa

08-10-2014, 07:36 AM

As an Idris owner (and someone who personally farmed over 20 million bayld outside of drops/purchases) I think you're exaggerating your HPB rate.

Well to be fair I never counted the HPB total as I was just giving them to a RUN friend for free, and selling them at 16k.
However, I certainly counted selling/giving away over 30 stacks, my guess would be 3500-4000 HP total.

Also re; rieves, yesterday I got HP in three lair rieves in a row, with a 5~ minute interval. Then no HP on the next one. Then a 4th HP on the 5th lair rieve. That's 4 HP in 30~ minutes. Maybe I'm "lucky" that HP drops to me, but I don't see it that way - I want simulcra and capes.

Also if you do WKR, if you kill a lot of mobs you end up with lots of bayld from that, which you can convert to HP.

As a side note, after obtaining 25~ HP yesterday morning, solo, without breaking a sweat, I then joined an Uptala x12 run, with capped KI and capped proc lights, result : zero HMP to me. A few other people got pouches. But my Empys got no progress at all after 12 alliance battles, trading cells, proccing the mob, warping to get more stones, tossing junk, selling logs, buying more cells, trekking back to mob etc.. And all for nothing, zero progress on my weapon. And this is normal - its just normal luck-based empy Failwatch process. At least if you get 10 HPB or something you feel like "I've made progress on my weapon" even if it is small progress - VW is just this barrage of "zero progress" runs.

So my point really does stand, I would farm all the HP in the world for my empy, instead of hmp/rifts, if it were possible.

* Edited for brevity.

Jadey

08-10-2014, 12:27 PM

Also re; rieves, yesterday I got HP in three lair rieves in a row, with a 5~ minute interval. Then no HP on the next one. Then a 4th HP on the 5th lair rieve. That's 4 HP in 30~ minutes. Maybe I'm "lucky" that HP drops to me, but I don't see it that way - I want simulcra and capes.

Yes, that's pretty much the definition of luck. If that's a typical run for you, congrats, you're going to be finishing your plates mighty quick if there's even one dedicated HPB buyer on Levi. Sell the HPB and buy the plates/simulacra. Honestly, if you farmed up somewhere between 20 and 30 million bayld (plus your HPB drops/Legend assignments) I'm confused that you aren't capped on capes since I hit 22/22 + extras shipped to mules around the 7-8 million farmed mark.

Also if you do WKR, if you kill a lot of mobs you end up with lots of bayld from that, which you can convert to HP.

This is a pretty common fallacy. Here are the issues with using WKR to farm personal bayld/HPB:

- The KI costs 15k bayld, so any bayld gains have to be weighed against that
- WKR bayld caps at 25k + the final ~2750, so your maximum net bayld gain is 12750
- To get to the bayld cap, the WKR has to last long enough. If you're following a large group, you may not get to the cap in time. If the group is too small, you hit the cap at 50% and spend the rest of the time fighting for no reward. I suppose you could leave once you cap, re-obtain the KI and go for more, but that seems overly complicated.
- You are all but guaranteed one HPB, but the box drop rate is beyond abysmal. Beyond 6F Salvage linen abysmal.

All in all, a 'good' WKR will get you a net of 22750 bayld (counting the HPB from the end) with a snowball's chance of a 3-15 count box. You could count the other people who now have HPB to sell, but you'd then also have to count your Uptala mates who got pouches as potential sellers since a 12-man Uptala run is going to come away with an average of 1 pouch dropping to at least one member of the run every 2 kills. That 12x Uptala group will average ~6 pouches across the alliance with an average of 9 plates per pouch. That's 54 plates either entering the sale market or getting someone closer to not being in the market anymore. That's roughly equal to 473 HPB in terms of how close that gets somebody to finishing. The numbers get even more lopsided if that Uptala group is full - each run has a ~67% chance of somebody getting a pouch. That maths out to ~72 plates or the equivalent 631 HPB.

This doesn't even touch the issue of pure supply. I see enough plates on Levi at 200k or less to get 45% done from zero. At the same time, there's enough HPB in bazaars at any price (100k/each even!) to get... 1.4% done. HPB buyers don't run into the issue of cost as much as the run into the fact that there just aren't many to buy. When I was at ~1500 to go until I finished, I raised my price and shouted for people to convert their full bayld stores. It still took over a dozen people to finish because the average person isn't running reives. They aren't diligent with their assignments. They can't do an instanced fight that takes a few minutes per run for a chance at a nice payday or an instanced zone that guarantees them 100+ currency when they succeed to get HPB. Bayld in general is worthless enough not to farm but ALSO worthless enough not to get rid of on the off chance that it has value in the future.

Even your zero-sweat 25 HPB morning, at general market HPB value, is about equal to a bog standard Arrapago II run - a run that takes an hour or less. And if you're going to respond that you hit that 25 HPB in an hour, then you're sitting on a goldmine and I hope nobody on your server starts shadowing you and eating into your profits while you corner the HPB market.

At least if you get 10 HPB or something you feel like "I've made progress on my weapon" even if it is small progress.

Getting 10 HPB, considering the amount needed, is about the same as leaving Voidwatch with 12 runs full of logs and stones that you NPC. That's .07% progress.

So my point really does stand, I would farm all the HP in the world for my empy, instead of hmp/rifts, if it were possible.

Why isn't it? Farm that easy HPB, sell it to desperate, supply constrained Ergon buyers, use it to buy the larger amounts of plates and cinders other people are lucky enough to get.

Stompa

08-10-2014, 02:39 PM

Yes, that's pretty much the definition of luck. If that's a typical run for you, congrats, you're going to be finishing your plates mighty quick if there's even one dedicated HPB buyer on Levi.

Well HP sit unsold in bazaars all day long at 23k/e.

I put it at 16k because at 20k+ it doesnt sell. So the hordes of desperate HP buyers you are alluding to, are nowhere to be seen.

Plates are 150k~200k. So 10 HP would get me 1 plate. x1500. And thats even assuming ppl are rushing my bazaar to buy HP which theyre not.

I'm at 400 hmp and thats from grinding vw plus some gifts / purchases. You seem to miss my whole point, about being able to solo hp, but needing to grind alliance runs for hmp which then dont even drop most of the time. You focus a lot on the fact I got hp bayld drops, and make smart remarks about me cornering markets etc. You miss the point - I do rieves for other things including ROE clears / repeat sparks etc. I just seem to get a lot of hp drops. I got like 8hp just doing seekers missions and clearing rieves in my way.

Re; capes, I had every jse cape in the game and rage tossed all of them except war. Now I'm playing some other jobs again so I'm out farming capes again.

I resent the overly critical nature of your responses to me - you miss the point I was making entirely, which is I dont want to buy my plates and cinders, or waste thousands of hours in vw alliances when no plates drop. I was pointing out how lucky ergon players are that they can solo farm their hp, with a regular drop rate - a little progress every hour - as opposed to alliance vw grind which can just cold stall your weapon-building progress through no fault of your own.

I was originally responding to the earlier poster who said the same thing about hp / hmp. I agreed with them and just say I would literally party in the street and dance for joy, if I could solo easy prey content for hp and finish my empy that way, because I've given away 1000hp for free to a run friend and sold another 2500~ hp for chump change bcoz nobody wants to buy the stuff at 20k lol.

dasva

08-10-2014, 03:08 PM

Last time I checked spreadsheet, using TP/WS set posted on AH forum, RUN ergon weapon with AM3 spamming reso can only do around 85% of dmg of Tsuru SAM on same target under same buff. I didn't add lunge/swipe dmg, but it has long recast time and you need runes to do it, which lowers DPS to put them back up, so I didn't calculate it.

A koga SAM can do a lot more than Tsuru SAM, and if you count the DPS lose to get 300 TP to activate(RUN probably get TP slower than SAM, mind you), then ergon GS is no where close to Koga's dmg. You can' compare DPS directly and say ergon GS is stronger DD weapon than mythic.

It's more of a tank weapon than DD weapon, if you want a DD weapon you'd build koga for cheaper price. It's certainly job changing enough to justify the price, but so does better mythics(which are cheaper)

You probably missed the first part where I said people were comparing what jobs with those weapons can do and not the weapons itself...

That would be like saying Rangnarok is a horrible weapon by comparing Koga sam to a pld using Rag lol

Not really sure what people were expecting from it... it takes care of RUNs problem with physical dmg making it an excellent tank and ups it's dmg capabilities a lot... did people really expect it to make RUN a top tier DD as well as a tank or something?

dasva

08-10-2014, 03:14 PM

PW drop is 3, not 5. Alex cost 7.5k on my server, that's 225,000,000. Scoria cost 7.5M on my server as well, so that's 247M per mythic.

Ergon needs to farm legendary rank and plasm as well, so you can't really argue that Ergon needs less time if you have gil.

And here I can easily HPs for 20k which would bring ergon down to 265mil ish.

As far as time a lot of people have been at least getting some rank up since it is the current content and possibly storing tags so if you had been keeping up you probably already had almost legend. Regardless ranking up the coalitions also has the advantage of getting you the balyd.

Are ergons harder to make than mythics at this moment? Sure are but the difference isn't that big

Malithar

08-10-2014, 05:06 PM

I resent the overly critical nature of your responses to me - you miss the point I was making entirely, which is I dont want to buy my plates and cinders, or waste thousands of hours in vw alliances when no plates drop. I was pointing out how lucky ergon players are that they can solo farm their hp, with a regular drop rate - a little progress every hour - as opposed to alliance vw grind which can just cold stall your weapon-building progress through no fault of your own.

Besides being overly critical of your HPB numbers (TBH, they remind me of the numbers a botter on my server quoted me he got from botting reives overnight) being realistic, you seem to be missing Jadey's point. HMPs do drop from VW, whether they drop to you or not, that's a whole nother story. Fact is, they're added to the market, and you can usually buy them cheap right there on the spot.

The fact that you don't want to pay for them has no real barring on it. In a perfect world, I would of preferred to not pay for the HPBs for Idris, either. But guess what? I did, because like you, I didn't want to spend thousands of hours grinding reives. Buck up, pay up, and get'er done, ya know? Or keep whining and hope you get a pouch or two on that next Uptala. Either works in the long run I suppose.

Vinedrai

08-10-2014, 08:26 PM

Why one farm 20m bayld to begin with is what I am most curious about o.O Premonition? I don't remember anything to justify the extreme bayld farming before ergon weapons...

newmonkey

08-11-2014, 12:02 AM

I swear you people moan just for the sake of it, or it's like you haven't played the game for years hp-bayld is new so the price is higher right now, in time it will settle lower.

Balloon

08-11-2014, 12:30 AM

Why one farm 20m bayld to begin with is what I am most curious about o.O Premonition? I don't remember anything to justify the extreme bayld farming before ergon weapons...

I didn't, but it always seemed kind of obvious to me that in some form the Ergons would use Bayld in some sense, and assaults would be replaced with assignment stuff - since they're mythic equivs.

dasva

08-11-2014, 05:40 AM

Why one farm 20m bayld to begin with is what I am most curious about o.O Premonition? I don't remember anything to justify the extreme bayld farming before ergon weapons...

I doubt anyone did it on purpose but at one point it looked like balyd might be useful for more than just temporary weapons and for awhile you had to do reives a decent amount to keep up bivouacs so some people actually did there part there and then just keeping up with tags/getting legend gets you a lot if you don't spend it. Trying to get that one caped you wanted before they allowed trade ins. I got to like 3 mil doing just that minus the reiving outside of wkr and that's with buying a bit of gear with balyd

Stompa

08-11-2014, 08:16 AM

Besides being overly critical of your HPB numbers (TBH, they remind me of the numbers a botter on my server quoted me he got from botting reives overnight) being realistic, you seem to be missing Jadey's point. HMPs do drop from VW, whether they drop to you or not, that's a whole nother story. Fact is, they're added to the market, and you can usually buy them cheap right there on the spot.

The fact that you don't want to pay for them has no real barring on it. In a perfect world, I would of preferred to not pay for the HPBs for Idris, either. But guess what? I did, because like you, I didn't want to spend thousands of hours grinding reives. Buck up, pay up, and get'er done, ya know? Or keep whining and hope you get a pouch or two on that next Uptala. Either works in the long run I suppose.

Well I'm not botter, I have got trolled on this very forum for saying that "gil-buying and botting are just cheats for people who don't want to accept the game challenge on a standard setting."

Bayld-wise, I was 0 / 100~ on the Hurkan Cap, and capping bayld every time to try and get the cap. I also farmed all the other WKR intensively for the items I wanted.

When my office is busy, I don't log in to FFxi all day, and will just stay up at night playing (mostly solo content). But on quiet work days I can boot FFxi in the office and just grind rieves on semi-afk mode. When I warp back to town I will see 5~25 HP in my bag depending on luck. The point is you can farm HP solo and be sure you will make some *small* progress every day.

To contrast HMP. I have gone 50x VW pops without seeing a plate. Sometimes I get pouches or singles. But sometimes I will not see a single plate for 50 pops and that is with max lights and alignment KIs. And of course the whole alliance /sh and /form business every time. So there are days and even weeks when I will not obtain a single plate from farming VW.

And my point was just that I *personally* would far prefer to grind solo HP on my own timeframe - assured of small progress every hour - than grind out vw alliances where I might not make any weapon progress for days and days ET.

I'm surprised that there are any people in the universe who find the VW drop rate sucks statement to be contentious. Also surprised you can't see how soloing EP content for bayld isnt easier than the whole vw alliance "That's too bad." circus.

Jadey

08-11-2014, 12:04 PM

Yes, the VW drop rate is bad. But comparatively, the (solo) HPB grind is much, much, much worse. I'll explain.

If you wanted to farm all of the bayld necessary to get an Ergon solo, that's 130,990,000 bayld (actually closer to 129,600,000 if you consider Runje kicksbacks, but whatever.) To farm that solo at 60,000 bayld/hour, assuming no competition at reives driving your hourly rate down, that would take you 2,183 hours. We'll round that down to an even 2,000 since you're bound to get HPB drops and maybe take time off to do your assignments in the 80 days or so you're going to be grinding reives.

Let's also assume that a typical Uptala x12 run takes about two hours to pick up members, gather, trade, kill, clear chests, re-up stones and the like. FFXIDB pegs the HMPouch drop rate at 6%, so in the same amount of time it takes you to farm that bayld solo, you get to kill 12,000 Uptalas. On average, someone doing this many would expect about 720 pouches to drop from those 12,000 kills. At an average of 9 plates per pouch, you now have 6,480 plates - enough to finish four empyrean weapon stages and sell the rest at 150k to get the rift* needed to 99 at least one. Or if you sold them all at 150k instead you'd have 972 million gil - pretty good compared to the bayld grinder who ended up with less than 400 million worth of HPB at the going 30k/each rate on many servers.

Given the averages, it should take just under 2800 Uptalas to finish your plates without buying any, or almost five times faster than a solo Ergon. Even if you bump up the Uptala gather time to 3 hours per run, you would still finish over three times faster than a solo bayld grinder. You may not see progress every day! That's how random chest drops work! And always remember that the average pouch you get has the same value as over seven hours of nonstop bayld farming.

Think of it this way - there are plenty of instances where linkshells have taken the time to run mass Voidwatch farms to gear up a LS BRD with a 99 harp. Without buying anything a dedicated shell can finish plates for harp in ~2 weeks running 3 hours of Uptala events a day. That same shell having each member farm bayld at an optimal 60k/hr (which would be all but impossible in the field due to the lack of quality farm spots that provide that number) for the same amount of time would get less than 35% of the necessary bayld.

The math and the averages say that despite runs where you brick on pouches, you will finish far, far faster than someone attempting an ergon. There's a reason Malithar's club took nearly two months from the introduction of the weapon to get his, during a period where you had hundreds of people running WKR right as they popped to get Paragons for their 115 gear and HPB was at its highest supply. It took me nearly three months. I don't think there's another Ergon on Quetz right now, and I'd be shocked if there were more than 50 across the entire server population. Those that have finished have done so because of donations from friends and shell members, aggressive buying of the massively supply constrained market, and farming to fill out the rest because of the lack of supply. As Malithar said, we'd love it if we didn't need to buy HPB from other people, or farm Salvage or Dynamis or Delve or Skirmish or Voidwatch (yes! I sold plates to buy HPB!) and could get some of the highest-tier items in the game at a casual pace and short timeframe. But that's not how the game works, or frankly has ever worked. The opportunity cost of getting any of these items yourself is intentionally high to pull you away from one singular method of gilmaking.

As an aside - I'd love to do a second Ergon someday. If your HPB farm is that effective, server transfer to Quetz and I'll set up a plate-for-HPB trade/buy up your HPB stock and we can both get what we're looking for!

Edit2: Since the dev team has taken a look at this thread - any chance of a method to Afterglow Ergons? :cool:

Stompa

08-11-2014, 02:32 PM

Let's also assume that a typical Uptala x12 run takes about two hours to pick up members, gather, trade, kill, clear chests, re-up stones and the like. FFXIDB pegs the HMPouch drop rate at 6%, so in the same amount of time it takes you to farm that bayld solo, you get to kill 12,000 Uptalas. On average, someone doing this many would expect about 720 pouches to drop from those 12,000 kills. At an average of 9 plates per pouch, you now have 6,480 plates - enough to finish four empyrean weapon stages and sell the rest at 150k to get the rift* needed to 99 at least one. Or if you sold them all at 150k instead you'd have 972 million gil - pretty good compared to the bayld grinder who ended up with less than 400 million worth of HPB at the going 30k/each rate on many servers.

Well OK. I just did 48 Uptala in the last 8~ days, three entire 12 pop runs there was no plates for me. 4th run I got a pouch which gave me 4 plates. Thats 4 plates in 48 alliance battles.
Other people got more pouches, and put the stuff on sale. But I resent buying items that drop in the event I'm in - when I'm on WAR and doing like seven weapon swapouts to try and get all the procs, ie. working hard, and then I'm supposed to buy plates from somebody else just because the loot box randomly loaded to them and not me?
Your online average drop rate misses the whole point - that VW is flawed because of the average-defying randomness and ppl who put in loads of effort but go home with logs and fish and potions. VW loot system is the most flawed system in FFXI. I personally love the NMs in VW and its a cool battlefield idea, but the drop system is the worst implemented thing in the game bar none.

And I solo'd my 175 Aby boss drops on War/thf for my empys. I can solo relic in dynamis. I can solo mythic pretty much too. And for sure I can solo HP bayld for ergon. But for Empy, the soloing stops abruptly after the Aby stage, and then you are hanging round a near-empty VW shell, trying to form alliance, joining shouts, and dealing with the log drops factor over and over.

I put my gil into levelling crafts, like clothcraft 80+ etc. I don't want to buy drops from events I can farm. That is the point I'm making is that Empy path is the only one you can't make solo progress on, and even alliance farming doesn't guarantee you progress every time you do it - unlike farming HP bayld, dyna currencies or alexs. If you went off to farm HP bayld, OBPs shells bills, alexs - and you knew before you started that you might not get a single one - would you think it was a fair system?

I'm really happy that RUN and GEO got these weapons, I hope you all have a lot of fun using the finished weapons. And I think you are lucky you got a system where you can chip away at the total H-P on your own casual solo timeframe (if that is what you wanted to do). My point was just that I wish I could farm solo on my own timeframe for empy, the same way I could have for ergon/relic/mythic.

Jadey

08-11-2014, 04:46 PM

Well OK. I just did 48 Uptala in the last 8~ days, three entire 12 pop runs there was no plates for me. 4th run I got a pouch which gave me 4 plates. Thats 4 plates in 48 alliance battles.

While that's disheartening, consulting the math and the low sample size that's standard variance. You not getting a pouch in those 36 Uptalas should happen about 11% of the time (10.8% of the time, if we want to be pedantic.) The point is that averages will contain outliers, but over the long run the numbers balance out. You can say with a very large degree of confidence that you'll get pouches from the T3 Zilart VW mobs 6% of the time because we have nearly 70000 logged chests on Uptala and over 150000 logged chests on Qilin. And they math out to a 6% drop rate almost on the dot.

Other people got more pouches, and put the stuff on sale. But I resent buying items that drop in the event I'm in - when I'm on WAR and doing like seven weapon swapouts to try and get all the procs, ie. working hard, and then I'm supposed to buy plates from somebody else just because the loot box randomly loaded to them and not me?
Your online average drop rate misses the whole point - that VW is flawed because of the average-defying randomness and ppl who put in loads of effort but go home with logs and fish and potions. VW loot system is the most flawed system in FFXI. I personally love the NMs in VW and its a cool battlefield idea, but the drop system is the worst implemented thing in the game bar none.

It's 'unfair' in the same way that drops from Skrimish are 'unfair' and can lead to you getting two NQ Wailing, 2 Dullahan Armor, a Ghastly +1, and a Phil. Stone while someone's mule that sits at the zone-in and does nothing gets slotted four Wailing +2. It's 'unfair' in the same way that a pickup Delve run can have a DD that tops the parse by miles and a SCH that stuns everything lose out on the /random for the 1m+ boss drop and the Airlixir +2 to the WHM who didn't know where to stand for Marine Mayhem and the BRD who sang everything with Terpander and no +duration gear. It's 'unfair' that I've spent over 10 million gil on Wailing Stone +2s to augment my Hagondes +1 gear and have yet to see any augments that aren't enhancements for pets. There's a randomization factor to the game that will always exist and will occasionally not reward effort. The systems that provide reward for little to no risk are balanced to not provide as dramatic a reward for the effort (Mog Garden) or to take a much longer amount of raw time to achieve (Ergon). Using Emp weapons as an example, you need a minimum of 38 NM kills to get the 75 items needed for a level 90 Emp, with an average of 50 if we assume you have an equal chance to get either 1 or 2. Would you accept a system that moved the possible drops from the min1-max2 they are now to a min0-max5 drop rate, assuming all possibilities were weighted equally? The math would average out to a lower number of kills, but you would run the risk of hitting a higher than average no-drop rate and skew to the unlucky end.

I put my gil into levelling crafts, like clothcraft 80+ etc. I don't want to buy drops from events I can farm. That is the point I'm making is that Empy path is the only one you can't make solo progress on, and even alliance farming doesn't guarantee you progress every time you do it - unlike farming HP bayld, dyna currencies or alexs. If you went off to farm HP bayld, OBPs shells bills, alexs - and you knew before you started that you might not get a single one - would you think it was a fair system?

Yes! In fact, crafting itself is exactly that system - the whole point of durable crafts is to make bank on the high-quality synths. You spend tons of gil with no promise that your synths will skill you up. You spend hundreds of thousands of guild points on furniture to increase your skill to break caps, eat food to boost HQ rates, use whatever magical direction/timeframe/lockstyle gear you think is lucky, press the button, and let the RNG decide if that effort is going to be a gain or a loss. Somebody else might go 1/1 on a T0 synth that you spent the time and gil and energy to crack the T1 barrier and still go 0/130, losing tens of millions of gil in the process. Is that fair? Every time I synth an Exalted Log, I risk 150k for a chance at 230k-920k on a super lucky T3 HQ.

On the flip side, I could turn ~40000 in Sushi ingredients into ~50000 in Sushi with 12 synths. It's low risk, but it's also low reward. It's the same with HPB vs. Plates. One is low risk, low reward. One is higher risk, higher reward.

I find the "I don't buy what I can farm" stance confusing. Do/did you buy Abyssea pop items to save time soloing? If you're making a relic and are on, let's say, the final Goldpiece stage, would you exclusively farm Sandy for bronzepieces (dealing with the more annoying mobs and the lower daily total) or would you go to a Dreamlands zone, cycle through all 3 currency types, sell the bynes and the whiteshells and buy bronzepieces with the gil you made?

The reason plates have stayed at a fairly consistent price over the last few years while Dyna currency and Alex are cratering across servers is because of the risk/reward dynamic in farming them. No, you aren't guaranteed to walk away with anything of value from 12 Uptalas. That's what makes them valuable.

Malithar

08-11-2014, 05:40 PM

And I solo'd my 175 Aby boss drops on War/thf for my empys. I can solo relic in dynamis. I can solo mythic pretty much too. And for sure I can solo HP bayld for ergon. But for Empy, the soloing stops abruptly after the Aby stage, and then you are hanging round a near-empty VW shell, trying to form alliance, joining shouts, and dealing with the log drops factor over and over.

Welcome to MMOs, where you may have to rely on your fellow players for supply/support when doing things. You really should move past this whole "I won't pay for what I can farm" stance when by your own admission, you can't easily solo farm it. Do other events, make money, buy plates, I really don't understand the issue, specially when you wasted money getting CC to 80+. What's that going to get you without more investment? Or are you solo farming all the mats to skill up that as well?

I'm not saying there is no issue with HMPs or Cinders, but what I am saying is it's plenty doable as is, if you get past this self imposed barrier you've set on yourself.

As much as you say you'd prefer to do HPBs in place of HMPs, I'd just as quickly do the opposite. At least then I could go to a VW and know that I'd get a pouch or 5 simply because I'd be willing to buy them. I did the exact same thing at WKRs, 50-100 people at some of them right after augmenting was added. You have any idea how many people felt it was worth 50k+ per HPB, or didn't read shouts, didn't know what it was for, and dropped it, or simply didn't want to waste the time trading or bazaaring it at that moment? And the sickening bit of it was that you KNEW every single person in there got at least one. In VW, it's pretty easy to see who got a pouch, tell the party you're buying, etc.

HPBs, the supply isn't exactly there to buy. The bayld is, but you'd have better luck moving mountains than convincing people to sell off their stock of bayld with any ease. And your supposed drop rate for HPBs and farming Bayld with ease and no effort is an extreme outlier or stretch of the truth compared to any other experience I've heard or had. Could just as easily list that one time I went 7/12 on pouches at Qilin, was a hell of a pay day. Does that mean that's the realistic side of the grind?

SNK

08-12-2014, 02:17 AM

Afania

08-12-2014, 02:57 AM

Also let's be real here bro. A Mythic takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more time and dedication to finish then an Ergon weapon. 30,000 Alex vs 1500 HP Bayld.

You didn't read the thread don't you?

Jadey

08-12-2014, 03:30 AM

You've got the calculation wrong. It's not 1500 HP Bayld, it's 13,099. You've got 4 million bayld? Great! You're 3% of the way there. And if you want to take time spent into consideration, let's take someone starting from zero progress and see how long it would take to get a Mythic or an Ergon.

Mythic timeframe:

Captain rank - 50 days
Nyzul floor 100 - 10 days (assuming 10 floors per tag - at i119 you should probably be getting 20+ floors per tag but we'll go with this
ToAU missions - Done during the 60 days of Assault
Salvage/Beastman King titles - Done during the 60 days of Assault
Odin v1 - Done during the 60 days of Assault
100000 Ichor - 56 days (T1 -> T2 -> T3 -> Odin, never buying any wing/tear/soul items from AH) - can be done concurrently with other objectives
Assault memories - 50 days
Nyzul tokens - 15 days (assuming 10000 tokens/tag)
3 chariot kills for L95 Mythic - 3 days
ZNM trophies - Can be done concurrently with other objectives
Alexandrite - 30,000 x 7500 gil (average price, Sylph server) = 225 million gil, can be bought/farmed concurrently with other objectives
Scoria - 3 x 10,000,000 gil = 30,000,000 gil (appx.)
Beitetsu - 300 x 8,000 gil = 2,400,000 gil (appx.)

Total time from zero progress to i119 Mythic - 128 days and ~260 million gil. Subsequent mythics can be done in ~68 days assuming gil is not a factor.

Ergon timeframe:

Coalition Legend rank x6 = 205 days (You need 840 imprimaturs to reach Legend in all 6 coalitions on an optimal rankup path. 612 of those will be on a 6 hour repop, and the last 228 will be on a 5.5 hour repop assuming you've done what's needed for the time reduction KI.)

All of the following can be done alongside the assignments:

Ghastly/Verdigris/Wailing stones - Trivial if you use Copper Vouchers
Delve T1/T2 boss items - 5,500,000 gil (appx.)
Pristine Yggrete Crystal - 2.5 million plasm (~36 T1 Delve wins, or ~24 T2 Delve wins)
High-Purity Bayld - 13099 x 30000 gil = ~392,970,000 gil

Total time from zero progress to Ergon - 205 days and ~398 million gil. The other Ergon can be done immediately assuming gil/plasm/vouchers/supply are not factors.

In any practical sense, an Ergon takes longer and costs more even if you assume there are unlimited amounts of both Alex and HPB available for purchase. The only Mythic snag is the 6 man requirement for Ein and the need for 3+ people to make Nyzul farming worthwhile - but the same can be said for Ergon, since you aren't going to be farming that 2.5 million plasm very quickly without grouping up.

And if you want to make a simple comparison, 13099 HPB vs 30000 Alex, you only need ~43% of the raw Alex amounts to finish Ergon. You can solo a Salvage run in an hour or less and expect to walk away with an average of ~110 Alex if you full clear F5/F6 and get an average Linen from F7. 110 Alex is basically equal to 48 HPB in that calculation. Go out this week and tell me how long it takes you to farm 480,000 bayld.

SNK

08-13-2014, 09:16 PM

You didn't read the thread don't you?

I read it but I was replying to Tim's post. Also I was indeed off about the cost of HP Bayld so I'll knock that off to having a "derp" moment but it still doesn't change that the idea that people want these weapons to be easier to obtain is silly. Like I said before, those things arn't meant for casual players and that's how it should be.

@Jadey,
In considering how easy it is to obtain bayld and getting Legend status in Coalitions vs having to spam all the assaults again not to mention some of them you're going to need help with, I still feel Mythics are way more time consuming compared to the ergon weapons. That of course is spending time also building up Zeni pops by taking stupid pictures over and over and over as well to finish pops for that stuff as well. Time is money so to speak and finishing a lot of coatlion assignments take minutes at most while a lot of assaults can take 15 to 30 minutes if you're lucky. Not to mention having to save tags for Nyzul Isle to get Tokens and as well as farming the crap out of Einherjar I'd say Mythics have the game won still in terms of time spend building them.

Also, Alex is obviously cheaper then HP Bayld but that's just supply & demand more then anything. Eventually it'll hit a low point like any other item in the game once everyone stops buying them so much.

I'll probably take you up on it and farm 480,000 Bayld just for shits n giggles.

Right now if anything I'd say finishing an Emp weapon to 119 from nothing would probably be the most costly since the plates and riftdross have dried up a lot due to not many people doing VW like it was when it was popular.

dasva

09-05-2014, 12:56 PM

So HP is fairly steady at 20k now and it seems like alex supply was overinflated by a lot by cheating and will most likely go up in price (at least once they get unloaded since it seemed all the cheaters got to keep theres)... seems like saying the requirement was much higher for ergon by comparing of 7k alex to 30k HP price was a bit off. When the dust settles I bet mythics will cost a bit more (actually think they might already be by a little on my server at least)

Hoshi

09-05-2014, 01:12 PM

HP Bayld is more like 30k on Asura. I buy anything I see at 20k >.>.

dasva

09-05-2014, 03:29 PM

Lostrose

10-28-2014, 09:29 PM

A quick check of bazaars on ffxiah also shows alex is 8-9.5k there too and a lot of things a lot of the time tend to cost a bit more on asura so I'd guess other items involved are too... point is things are equalizing all on their own

Do me a favour and check prices on Odin.. thank you. HPB = 45-60K Alex = 7-7.5K. Things are NOT equalizing all on their own.

Furthermore, I noticed a HUGE increase in characters botting lair reives in the past 3-4 weeks. Whenever I try to go farm some bayld for my weapon, since I am NOT going to pay 50K per H-P Bayld, the lair reives are constantly camped by someone botting, anywhere you go. 99% of the characters selling more than 30-50 H-P Bayld at a time are botters and they are all selling at 45-50K per. And, funnily enough, the people that gain those baylds honestly are the ones willing to sell at lower prices (problem is they only sell like 2-3 HPB at a time).

With this ridiculous attitude towards H-P Bayld acquisition SE is simply supporting botters and cheaters who are making millions while scamming honest players. SE please do something about this!!!

Lyncath

11-10-2014, 01:45 AM

Do me a favour and check prices on Odin.. thank you. HPB = 45-60K Alex = 7-7.5K. Things are NOT equalizing all on their own.

Furthermore, I noticed a HUGE increase in characters botting lair reives in the past 3-4 weeks. Whenever I try to go farm some bayld for my weapon, since I am NOT going to pay 50K per H-P Bayld, the lair reives are constantly camped by someone botting, anywhere you go. 99% of the characters selling more than 30-50 H-P Bayld at a time are botters and they are all selling at 45-50K per. And, funnily enough, the people that gain those baylds honestly are the ones willing to sell at lower prices (problem is they only sell like 2-3 HPB at a time).

With this ridiculous attitude towards H-P Bayld acquisition SE is simply supporting botters and cheaters who are making millions while scamming honest players. SE please do something about this!!!

Agreed, this is really starting to get on my nerves. Prices on Bahamut now range between 37k to 50k, making an Ergon three times the cost of a Mythic. The legions of botters across Marjami Ravine, Outer Ra'knazar and some even in lower level zones can do one as well. This quest seriously needs balancing, urgently.