Special Effects that shouldn't be dispelable

[Zeargi]

So, I've played a lot of the jobs through the years, but there are a few things that bother. Abilities such as Yonin and Innin, I feel that there are 'stances' and should not be able to be removed. Similiarly, Sublimation (Active and Complete, Fan Dance, Saber Dance, and Avatar's Favor. These are just a few that I feel that shouldn't be targetable via Dispel.... But that's just my thoughts.

[Demonjustin]

I think dispel in general used by mobs needs to have a few more restrictions placed on it. Full buff wipes of more than 15 buffs, the ability to remove buffs that we have on long timers such as the things you mentioned, as well as Composure and the other similar effects, and the fact that so far as I know we simply can't resist Dispel, or it's very unlikely at very least, makes it worthy of some adjustments in just what it can target and what limits it has on it in general.

[Babekeke]

Iso far as I know we simply can't resist Dispel, or it's very unlikely at very least, makes it worthy of some adjustments in just what it can target and what limits it has on it in general.

I should imagine that RUN with lux x3 and pflug will resist it. Heck I can resist death, so surely dispel is resistable? I'll have to test it and get back to you.

[Olor]

I think dispel in general used by mobs needs to have a few more restrictions placed on it. Full buff wipes of more than 15 buffs, the ability to remove buffs that we have on long timers such as the things you mentioned, as well as Composure and the other similar effects, and the fact that so far as I know we simply can't resist Dispel, or it's very unlikely at very least, makes it worthy of some adjustments in just what it can target and what limits it has on it in general.

Agree with this and signed.

[Damane]

I should imagine that RUN with lux x3 and pflug will resist it. Heck I can resist death, so surely dispel is resistable? I'll have to test it and get back to you.

no, i imagine dispel has a higher m.acc base value (like stun or flash have a far higher base m.acc value on the spell), death might have a far lower m.acc base value, the amounts of dispels i have seen resisted on my run can be counted on 1 hand sadly :/

while dispels are annoying i see them as part of the battle-strategy etc. if you dont want to loose some specific buffs use different job setups (for example geo buffs cant be dispelled at all). I dont see there being a big issue, ecxept for CORs imho.

[Demonjustin]

no, i imagine dispel has a higher m.acc base value (like stun or flash have a far higher base m.acc value on the spell), death might have a far lower m.acc base value, the amounts of dispels i have seen resisted on my run can be counted on 1 hand sadly :/

while dispels are annoying i see them as part of the battle-strategy etc. if you dont want to loose some specific buffs use different job setups (for example geo buffs cant be dispelled at all). I dont see there being a big issue, ecxept for CORs imho.This also depends on the job though. Take for instance a job like RDM who's entirely dependant on buffs but can have all 15+ buffs it casts on itself dispelled at once in a single attack, the only buffs that make it at all comparable to any sort of frontline job or give it a defense against it's enemy. If dispel were more balanced, something along the line of 3 buffs max and if it had a much lower chance of selecting certain buffs such as Composure that would count as 2 or 3 buffs, then I'd be ok with it. The fact all buffs are equal in the eyes of dispel and that all are able to be displayed in a single attack are both things that in my opinion make it completely overpowered against some jobs. That on top of the fact that even the lowest leveled of monsters seem to have little problem dispelling my buffs even though I'm more than 50 levels above them supposedly just goes to show that it's level of MAcc is far higher than it should be when cast by mobs, especially when you think of the fact our dispel doesn't seem to share in that benefit otherwise people wouldn't have any issues dispelling the Mandragora in Yorcia or have ever had issues dispelling Kurma when Delve came out.

[dasva]

I should imagine that RUN with lux x3 and pflug will resist it. Heck I can resist death, so surely dispel is resistable? I'll have to test it and get back to you.

I doubt it. I rarely resist dispel with fealty up

Anyways though there is a bit of inherent imbalance when a monster can take off 15 buffs from everyone in range yet players are reduced to dispelling 1 buff on 1 mob at a time... maybe a limit to how many can be removed or take away the aoeing

[Damane]

This also depends on the job though. Take for instance a job like RDM who's entirely dependant on buffs but can have all 15+ buffs it casts on itself dispelled at once in a single attack, the only buffs that make it at all comparable to any sort of frontline job or give it a defense against it's enemy. If dispel were more balanced, something along the line of 3 buffs max and if it had a much lower chance of selecting certain buffs such as Composure that would count as 2 or 3 buffs, then I'd be ok with it. The fact all buffs are equal in the eyes of dispel and that all are able to be displayed in a single attack are both things that in my opinion make it completely overpowered against some jobs. That on top of the fact that even the lowest leveled of monsters seem to have little problem dispelling my buffs even though I'm more than 50 levels above them supposedly just goes to show that it's level of MAcc is far higher than it should be when cast by mobs, especially when you think of the fact our dispel doesn't seem to share in that benefit otherwise people wouldn't have any issues dispelling the Mandragora in Yorcia or have ever had issues dispelling Kurma when Delve came out.

tbh tough RDM was never intended as a frontline job and other frontline jobs suffer also immensly when all their buffs get dispelled. Player Dispel works exactly as mob dispel, the differenc is that some mobs have some form of Resist Dispel trait or insane amount of Darkness resist. Besides its not comon for mobs/NMs to have a dispel all buffs moves, the ecxeptions are delve bosses, which is imho totally fine. The game would become even more easier if they could not. I rather deal with dispel moves then with add status: weakened/doom/strip equipment totally moves like in the voidwatch era. They allready restrained themselfs off from weakened/doom/strip gear moves, take away dispel moves/make them easier and there isnt much left you can put on a mob to make it challenging, ecxept to bring it then up to Legion levle and let it hit like a rocket bomb while you need to stun every move then, or make it spam AoE HP down constantly (which would have the same effect).

[Demonjustin]

I'm not getting into the RDM Frontline debate... We have Temper, En-spells, a Mythic Sword, our highest skills are in melee weapons, we're on melee gear, we are intended to melee in some form like it or not, that's the end of that conversation right there.

Delve bosses aren't the only types of mobs that dispel all buffs, Dragons and Gessho alone are two non-Delve NMs off the very top of my head that dispel everything in one hit. Taking away the power to dispel 15+ buffs isn't making them too weak, if anything I'd be ok with 3~5 even, but every single buff is ludicrous.

[Demonjustin]

15 buffs isn't immediate, even in capped Fast Cast only casting on myself I'm looking at around a full minute of just casting spells upon myself, let alone if I'm doing Haste II or Refresh II for the party as a whole. I really don't see how not allowing them to dispel more than 20 buffs is really weakening them to the point of making them too easy. We're already going to see a return of Weakness+Doom moves you mentioned earlier, we're already seeing a Gallu in the next Skirmish which are the most overpowered mobs in the entire game's history. These moves are just overkill in my opinion. Yes, GEO has an advantage in this setting, I'm not saying take that away from them because they'd still have a good use but allowing full debuffs regardless is overkill. I see no reason why we can dispel one effect from NMs while they can dispel as many as they please from us without any problems at all and we just have to deal with it. NMs targeting specific things like Adamantoise are fine, NMs doing only 3~5 are also fine, NMs doing full AoE removals of all buffs is completely stupid.

[Zeargi]

This has kind derailed a bit from what i started. I honestly don't mind a full removal, but what I do mind is that certain abilities that have long cast timers or are some what needed, shouldn't be effected. Like I mentioned earlier, Yonin and Innin are stances for NIN, similar to the Runes of a RUN or SCH's Light and Dark Arts. Also Sublimation is a conversion effect of HP, so I feel that if they can't make that non-dispelable, then it needs to change to the moment it's effect ends the MP Recovery effect takes place. Composure is a mental focus that extends the effects, you shouldn't be able to to dispel someones focus T_T. I'm not sure if the WHM's Abilities can be dispelled, but if they can, they shouldn't be D:<

[Lambtor]

I doubt it. I rarely resist dispel with fealty up

Anyways though there is a bit of inherent imbalance when a monster can take off 15 buffs from everyone in range yet players are reduced to dispelling 1 buff on 1 mob at a time... maybe a limit to how many can be removed or take away the aoeing

RDMs need Dispel II to even this out.

[Camate]

Greetings,

Effects that are not dispellable are currently limited to only those that need to be maintained in order to keep the job functioning as it was designed to -- namely, maneuvers and runes. Of the examples of the abilities given in this thread, many of them have long effect durations, but they are also abilities that grant personal enhancements or shift between attack and defense, and they are not stats that are critical in order to play out the roles of those jobs. Due to this, we do not have any plans at the moment to adjust them so they cannot be dispelled.

[Randnum]

Well, might as well contradict.

As WHM, while Afflatus Solace and Misery are not 'required to play out the roles of those jobs', the 'stance' type ones specifically tilt things in a direction intended to enhance play and make certain things possible. While the obvious point is 'well those things aren't supposed to be possible against these enemies', the argument that at high levels of play, WHM and NIN stances aren't needed to keep the job functioning as it was designed to is to diminish the very design one put such effort into.

I find it hard to argue that PUP needs maneuvers to function at all because you're not completely locking off their functionality, just parts of it. The same goes for WHM, admittedly not so much Yonin and Innin. Ohwell.

[Ramzi]

There should still be a limit to how many effects an enemy can dispel. Having an NM wipe out Protect, Shell, Haste, Corsair rolls, 4-8 Bard songs, bar-spell, active JA's, etc etc after one TP move is a bit silly. I'm thinking Tojil here- yes we have counter measures in that we can stun the move, but that just forces the group into having to take a SCH that can keep up with the stuns. Also, it's incredibly frustrating, and counter-productive to have songs/effects under 1 hour ability like soul voice be wiped out because they cannot be re-applied for a whole hour. That's just poor game design.

[Zeargi]

Greetings,

Effects that are not dispellable are currently limited to only those that need to be maintained in order to keep the job functioning as it was designed to -- namely, maneuvers and runes. Of the examples of the abilities given in this thread, many of them have long effect durations, but they are also abilities that grant personal enhancements or shift between attack and defense, and they are not stats that are critical in order to play out the roles of those jobs. Due to this, we do not have any plans at the moment to adjust them so they cannot be dispelled.

Yonin, Innin, Solace, and Misery are things that were added because of certain things were lacking. Yonin was and still is needed for a boost to enmity gain, as NIN lacks the great number of JAs that both PLD and RUN have that can continuously do that. Issekigan only comes into play if you parry, while Sentinel, Shield Bash, Fealty, Palisade, Holy Circle, Invicible, Intervene, Elemental Sforzo, Swipe, Lunge, Liement, Pflug, Gambit, Rayke, Battuta, Vallation/Valiance Swordplay, One for All, Vivacious Pulse, Odyllic Subterfuge can be used at any time, plus Both have Flash and Phalanx. I'm excluding the the Gekka/Crusade as it's something that both jobs share, like wise I'm not including sub JAs because those are open to everyone. If you want people to play this role and play it to it's fullest then it needs to be able to maintain the role it's needed for. Utsusemi generates some hate, but not a nearly the amount of Foil, Flash, and Reprisal, and the enmity loss from Shadows consumed. The next problem is that Unlike PLD and RUN, NIN is reliant on its stock of Ninja tools, so when PLD/RUN lose Crusade isn't that be of a thing, because that can just recast it, and with a BRD or RDM that can cast Refresh (Or a RUN just cast it on themselves), they have no real MP woes. Next is the WHM's 'stances' these are big as well, because you've attached several spells to these, Cura, Esuna, Auspice, Sacrifice, Bar-Spells, and even the Cure Spells extra effect. That extra Stoneskin can sometime be the deciding factor against some of these NMs' Super moves.

[Karbuncle]

Well, might as well contradict.

As WHM, while Afflatus Solace and Misery are not 'required to play out the roles of those jobs', the 'stance' type ones specifically tilt things in a direction intended to enhance play and make certain things possible. While the obvious point is 'well those things aren't supposed to be possible against these enemies', the argument that at high levels of play, WHM and NIN stances aren't needed to keep the job functioning as it was designed to is to diminish the very design one put such effort into.

I find it hard to argue that PUP needs maneuvers to function at all because you're not completely locking off their functionality, just parts of it. The same goes for WHM, admittedly not so much Yonin and Innin. Ohwell.

Apologies i must disagree. Maneuvers control almost everything the Puppet does, Maneuvers allow a PUP to control rather or not a Puppet can provoke or flash, things I'd argue are required for a Tank frame to Tank... It controls what weaponskills the automaton uses, its ability to properly prioritize healing, and so forth. Without Maneuvers, a Puppet is almost entirely useless, and the attachments weak.

Now, what I'm saying now requires the knowledge that PUP was originally not intended to be a Melee job. When PUP was introduced, It was suppose to be back-line job that used its Automaton as its main source of damage or support... which is why it was on butloads of mage armor (SE expected it to be a "PUP/WHM" kind of deal, not become a Melee job, which is also why its highest combat skill at one point was like a C+). You can find this information straight for Squares mouth somewhere, I wish i could remember where...

So, at the time of inception, Maneuvers were he soul of PUPs job, before PUP become a Melee-job with a Pet, as opposed to what it was intended to be, a Pet with a support master. On the opposite spectrum, Afflatus Solace and Misery only add enhancements to WHMs abilities... Without Solace/Misery a WHM can still cure and perform its job just fine, -Na, erase, cure, and so forth. Afflatus makes it easier, but it does not define the job.

In the same respect, Composure can make a RDMs job easier, especially solo, and Yonin/Innin make a NIN a much better DD or tank, but neither are required for the job to perform well, and all RDM, NIN and WHM got away without these abilities for years.

[Zeargi]

Now, what I'm saying now requires the knowledge that PUP was originally not intended to be a Melee job. When PUP was introduced, It was suppose to be back-line job that used its Automaton as its main source of damage or support... which is why it was on butloads of mage armor (SE expected it to be a "PUP/WHM" kind of deal, not become a Melee job, which is also why its highest combat skill at one point was like a C+). You can find this information straight for Squares mouth somewhere, I wish i could remember where...

In the same respect, Composure can make a RDMs job easier, especially solo, and Yonin/Innin make a NIN a much better DD or tank, but neither are required for the job to perform well, and all RDM, NIN and WHM got away without these abilities for years.

Likewise, in the same concept, NIN wasn't suppose to be a Tank, it's how we the players used it that changed the view. As you can see with how an NPC plays the class; NIN Mobs keep their distance and rely on Ninjutsu and Ranged Combat for their primary means of attack, this is the same AI that BLM and RNG mobs use. But with the introduction of Trusts: Gessho's AI is completely different than the other Yagudo. We changed the usage for Ninja and SE gave those abilities to them to make up for the needs that came from them. So, If SE want NIN to be a tank still it needs a way to main the enmity generation that RUN and PLD have.

[Demonjustin]

Runes and Maneuvers take a few seconds to put back up, most of the other ones mentioned are a minute or more. Don't get me wrong, they are important, but we're talking two totally different levels of waiting to get them back to what they were at before hand.

[Demonjustin]

Greetings,

Effects that are not dispellable are currently limited to only those that need to be maintained in order to keep the job functioning as it was designed to -- namely, maneuvers and runes. Of the examples of the abilities given in this thread, many of them have long effect durations, but they are also abilities that grant personal enhancements or shift between attack and defense, and they are not stats that are critical in order to play out the roles of those jobs. Due to this, we do not have any plans at the moment to adjust them so they cannot be dispelled.So let me get this straight... You've no intentions on limiting the number of buffs removed by a monster's attacks, you've no intentions on making more buffs removable, and you're perfectly ok with jobs like RDM losing all of their buffs even if it means the job goes from being functional, to a piece of wet tissue paper with a sword made a wood. At the exact same time, you're not willing to give a job like RDM the ability to dispel two, not twenty, not five, two buffs from NMs.

You've got a job whose position is never really stated. You give us buffs, you give us debuffs, Haste II & the other spells that came with it are signs of a direction we're meant to go in. The gear we've gotten the last few months, are signs of what direction we're meant to go in. At this very same time, you're telling me that a monster is supposed to have the power to destroy my job's ability in combat, because yes, that's what Dispel does to RDM if it ever even comes close to the frontlines, buffs are it's most important asset. You're also telling me that my debuffs, the thing I do better than any other job supposedly, are also not allowed to be anywhere near as powerful as a monsters, nor at their full power against the most deadly of monsters where it's truly needed most.

In effect, this monsters are allowed to use debuffs like Amnesia, Weakness, Doom, and other effects that can't be removed, on top of having the power to not only dispel but absorb all buffs a player currently has for itself, while the best debuffer in the game can't do any of that to anything at all. Consequently, the best buffer can't prevent their buffs from being removed either, no buffer can regardless of how good they are.

To me, it's extremely annoying how unbalanced the buff/debuff paradigm is. Monsters don't really buff at all, they debuff the **** out of us to no end with things like Slow, Weakness, Doom, Encumberance, and so on. At the same time, we don't really debuff at all, we buff ourselves with BRDs, CORs, GEOs, self buffs, so on. Debuffs for players aren't powerful, buffs for monsters aren't powerful either in most cases, but the opposites are extremely powerful, and in a lot of cases it's what leads to us zerging everything. We have extreme amounts of power, and they have the power to destroy us easily, so we kill them as fast as we can, don't even try to weaken them, and hope we come out the winning team. In my opinion enemies should buff themselves a bit more, and at the same time players should be allowed to have powerful debuffs alongside it, so one side isn't always buffed to the teeth and the other side always trying to tear them down and use overpowered abilities to restrict things from them till they die.

[Karbuncle]

The idea of debuffing is that its suppose to gimp you. Sorry, thats the idea of the entire ability. Maybe dispelling all buffs is a bit extreme when it comes to monster TP moves, but I think dispel is an adequate move for enemies to use. Its called strategy and I personally don't want to be the one to say it because being blunt and slightly rude isn't my style, but yah, deal with it. Dispel is there to weaken you, they give you buffs and give the possibility of them being removed... thats its intended effect for f**ks sake. Maybe SE simply chose the wrong wording when saying "required to perform its job" because now every idiot with a bone to pick is going to find a way to bend that wording like a defense lawyer looking for a way to twist it against them, but Dispel is suppose to be a pain in the butt, Dispel is suppose to DISPEL YOUR BUFFS, to that extension, its suppose to slow down your damage output, Dispel is suppose to remove buffs that increase your power. They have their reasons for RUN and PUP and they're acceptable, maybe for RUN moreso than PUP.

Its a tough choice for them when it comes to this type of choice, they added Reraise to undispellable buffs which I think was a good call, but adding every buff thats nothing more than a convenience is asinine, and I don't find "Dispel makes me weak" a good argument either since that was its intended effect.

In the end, this thread is plenty example that If one job gets an undispellable buff, then other jobs chime in wanting theirs, and soon, "Dispel" is a worthless ability when used by enemies. Everyone is chimming in claiming their job "Depends" on certain buffs and blah blah. Next we'll here THFs complaining their job depends on Conspirator, or SMN complaining their job depends on Avatar's Favor, DRK saying their job depends on Soul eater. Its silly people. While each of these buffs can define a purpose of the job, the job does not cease to function without them, and back when PUP was introduced and its intended design, without Maneuvers, Automatons would cease to function properly.

I imagine SE made the decision about RUN because for one they're a tank job, which is already a long dying art in XI, so a tank job without a shield constantly sacrificing DPS to put RUNs back up after a dispel would be dead on arrival, and for two, they depend on reducing magic damage to function as a tank, and their only means to do this is runes, if you look at it this way, runes are a RUNs shield, you can't dispel a PLD's shield, which a PLDs means of defense... (though equipment removal is another story, but equipment removal effects all frontline jobs equally, where as Dispel does not).

That said I'd be okay with SE adjusting Equipment Removal abilities to no longer target weapons, or at least the Sub weapon slot to protect PLD, thats the only "Turnabout is fair play" I'm going to give headway.

[Tptn937]

RDMs need Dispel II to even this out.

DRK gets Nether Void Absorb-Attri to take two effects.

[Damane]

The idea of debuffing is that its suppose to gimp you. Sorry, thats the idea of the entire ability. Maybe dispelling all buffs is a bit extreme when it comes to monster TP moves, but I think dispel is an adequate move for enemies to use. Its called strategy and I personally don't want to be the one to say it because being blunt and slightly rude isn't my style, but yah, deal with it. Dispel is there to weaken you, they give you buffs and give the possibility of them being removed... thats its intended effect for f**ks sake. Maybe SE simply chose the wrong wording when saying "required to perform its job" because now every idiot with a bone to pick is going to find a way to bend that wording like a defense lawyer looking for a way to twist it against them, but Dispel is suppose to be a pain in the butt, Dispel is suppose to DISPEL YOUR BUFFS, to that extension, its suppose to slow down your damage output, Dispel is suppose to remove buffs that increase your power. They have their reasons for RUN and PUP and they're acceptable, maybe for RUN moreso than PUP.

Its a tough choice for them when it comes to this type of choice, they added Reraise to undispellable buffs which I think was a good call, but adding every buff thats nothing more than a convenience is asinine, and I don't find "Dispel makes me weak" a good argument either since that was its intended effect.

In the end, this thread is plenty example that If one job gets an undispellable buff, then other jobs chime in wanting theirs, and soon, "Dispel" is a worthless ability when used by enemies. Everyone is chimming in claiming their job "Depends" on certain buffs and blah blah. Next we'll here THFs complaining their job depends on Conspirator, or SMN complaining their job depends on Avatar's Favor, DRK saying their job depends on Soul eater. Its silly people. While each of these buffs can define a purpose of the job, the job does not cease to function without them, and back when PUP was introduced and its intended design, without Maneuvers, Automatons would cease to function properly.

I imagine SE made the decision about RUN because for one they're a tank job, which is already a long dying art in XI, so a tank job without a shield constantly sacrificing DPS to put RUNs back up after a dispel would be dead on arrival, and for two, they depend on reducing magic damage to function as a tank, and their only means to do this is runes, if you look at it this way, runes are a RUNs shield, you can't dispel a PLD's shield, which a PLDs means of defense... (though equipment removal is another story, but equipment removal effects all frontline jobs equally, where as Dispel does not).

That said I'd be okay with SE adjusting Equipment Removal abilities to no longer target weapons, or at least the Sub weapon slot to protect PLD, thats the only "Turnabout is fair play" I'm going to give headway.

^this pritty much sums up how i see dispel and how i feel about it. there is really no need to further dumb down mob moves. Its a strategy, deal with it.

[Malithar]

they depend on reducing magic damage to function as a tank, and their only means to do this is runes, if you look at it this way, runes are a RUNs shield, you can't dispel a PLD's shield, which a PLDs means of defense...

Ask Hurkan the secret. ;) Although it affects parrying too.

Joking aside, pretty much agree. Or if dispels are so rough, bring a Geo! ;D

[Olor]

I dunno, DemonJustin has a good point... for jobs that need to be buffed to even be slightly useful, it is a huge slap in the face... especially when you consider those jobs are not top-tier to begin with (thinking mostly of BLU and RDM here) ... these are jobs that are given all sorts of "self-only" buffs ... and then they can have them all wiped in an instant - even though the job's relative power is based on those buffs. I really don't see how that's fair.

[Damane]

I dunno, DemonJustin has a good point... for jobs that need to be buffed to even be slightly useful, it is a huge slap in the face... especially when you consider those jobs are not top-tier to begin with (thinking mostly of BLU and RDM here) ... these are jobs that are given all sorts of "self-only" buffs ... and then they can have them all wiped in an instant - even though the job's relative power is based on those buffs. I really don't see how that's fair.

this effects all jobs, every job that isnt buffed will be shit tier on any remotely hard battle (Delve 2.0, D or VD hardmode mission battles): tanks, melees, mages, there is no exeption to that.

the question is can the job function at its core without the buffs? all can, with the exeption of RUN, if a RUN has no runes up he cant do his core job function: tank and mitgate magical dmg.
The other jobs still function even if their buffs were wiped in their core function:
melees can still melee
mages can still heal/debuff/nuke/buff
buffers can still buff
pld can still tank.

[Demonjustin]

I think what I'm saying is being taken the wrong way honestly. I'm not saying remove the ability to remove buffs, I'm saying some things shouldn't be, some jobs shouldn't be as susceptible, there should be defenses against it. Scream strategy all you'd like it doesn't change the fact that there's no real defense against full buff wiping attacks, it's a thing you just have to deal with. Most things that are really good for strategy actually involve a way to avoid things like this in my opinion. I liked how Outer Ra'kaznar Skirmish was for instance, where many of the most deadly attacks could be avoided. Beastruction? Ha, WS from behind, Ballistic Kick? Don't use magic on it... Tectonic Shift? No WSs guys! These in my opinion are strategic more so than say... instantly removing every buff a player has forcing the party to spend a minute or 2 quickly applying them again. Sure, it might take less work, but really which is less strategic? Which takes the smarter players here?

Besides that, I think jobs like RDM with Composure up at very least should have a defense against it. I've said it multiple times this thread, RDM has 15 buffs it gets by it's own doing, let alone from others... would it be so bad for Composure to give a 50% chance to resist Dispel? To add an effect to it that allows it to negate Dispel at the cost of removing Composure? To allow the amount of buffs dispelled while Composure is active to be halved? I'm not saying remove dispel as a tool the enemy can use I'm saying nerf it a bit because right now it's stupidly overpowered to some jobs and in general.

As I explained before, the balance between buffs and debuffs is way off. Players have all of the buff power, NMs have all of the debuff power, the opposite has the ability to try using the opposite but they don't often do well. The only time in recent history I can think of buffs on the enemy being at all dangerous are Tojil's buff, which is 4 in one and only primarily being deadly because of the Blaze Spikes which make us kill ourselves(due to our own buffs!), and the auras that all Naakauls have by default. At the same time enemies use tons of attacks far more powerful than anything we come close to. It's a balancing issue which I suppose full buff dispels stem from but that doesn't really make it any better.

To me, full buff wipes aren't strategic, they're just annoying. They shouldn't be removed, but they shouldn't affect all jobs equally. They shouldn't be full buff wipes either in my opinion, even setting a high cap like 10 would be better than flat out saying the skys the limit, any number of buffs that aren't on X-list are gone.

[Damane]

I think what I'm saying is being taken the wrong way honestly. I'm not saying remove the ability to remove buffs, I'm saying some things shouldn't be, some jobs shouldn't be as susceptible, there should be defenses against it. Scream strategy all you'd like it doesn't change the fact that there's no real defense against full buff wiping attacks, it's a thing you just have to deal with. Most things that are really good for strategy actually involve a way to avoid things like this in my opinion. I liked how Outer Ra'kaznar Skirmish was for instance, where many of the most deadly attacks could be avoided. Beastruction? Ha, WS from behind, Ballistic Kick? Don't use magic on it... Tectonic Shift? No WSs guys! These in my opinion are strategic more so than say... instantly removing every buff a player has forcing the party to spend a minute or 2 quickly applying them again. Sure, it might take less work, but really which is less strategic? Which takes the smarter players here?

Besides that, I think jobs like RDM with Composure up at very least should have a defense against it. I've said it multiple times this thread, RDM has 15 buffs it gets by it's own doing, let alone from others... would it be so bad for Composure to give a 50% chance to resist Dispel? To add an effect to it that allows it to negate Dispel at the cost of removing Composure? To allow the amount of buffs dispelled while Composure is active to be halved? I'm not saying remove dispel as a tool the enemy can use I'm saying nerf it a bit because right now it's stupidly overpowered to some jobs and in general.

As I explained before, the balance between buffs and debuffs is way off. Players have all of the buff power, NMs have all of the debuff power, the opposite has the ability to try using the opposite but they don't often do well. The only time in recent history I can think of buffs on the enemy being at all dangerous are Tojil's buff, which is 4 in one and only primarily being deadly because of the Blaze Spikes which make us kill ourselves(due to our own buffs!), and the auras that all Naakauls have by default. At the same time enemies use tons of attacks far more powerful than anything we come close to. It's a balancing issue which I suppose full buff dispels stem from but that doesn't really make it any better.

To me, full buff wipes aren't strategic, they're just annoying. They shouldn't be removed, but they shouldn't affect all jobs equally. They shouldn't be full buff wipes either in my opinion, even setting a high cap like 10 would be better than flat out saying the skys the limit, any number of buffs that aren't on X-list are gone.

i think you dont understand what camate/dev team explained, RDM can still buff itself and others, debuff mobs, heal etc. even without composure/whatever stuff, the job is working still at its core. a RUN cant do his task when runes are dispelled: tanking and mitgating magical dmg, hence the reason why Runes became undispellable, the same applies to PUP and maneuvers.

sure your damage output will go down, but EVERY JOB has to deal with that when getting fully dispelled and loosing all brd buffs (even RUN and PUP).

[Demonjustin]

i think you dont understand what camate/dev team explained, RDM can still buff itself and others, debuff mobs, heal etc. even without composure/whatever stuff, the job is working still at its core.So a RDM without any buffs at all for defense or offense is perfectly capable of functioning at it's core...


a RUN cant do his task when runes are dispelled: tanking and mitgating magical dmg, hence the reason why Runes became undispellable, the same applies to PUP and maneuvers.and at the exact same time RUN and PUP require Maneuvers and Runes, even though Maneuvers take less than 30 seconds to get 3 of them up, Runes only taking 15 seconds.

If a job's ability to function is what's in question I really don't see how 15 seconds without Runes, which don't get me wrong hurts RUN, is so devastating to the job that it requires an immunity to dispel but at the same time a job like RDM whose power and survival are almost entirely dependant on it's buffs , gets no resistance or immunity for anything it has. A PUP loses a lot with Maneuvers too, their automaton from what I understand becomes much less useful during this period as a result but in all honesty if we're going to go down the road of saying it's only keeping buffs that are necessary for the job to function, do these qualify? I mean it's not like the Automaton is being dispelled, only it's Maneuvers, which take all of 30sec to reactivate before you continue on your way. I use these time frames because they are small waits, if you want to talk about dispel being important as a debuff then I'd think making an Automaton weaker would be one no? The same for removing some of RUN's MEVA and JAs for a short time? I mean we already have NMs that reset all JA timers which effectively destroys the differences between jobs in most ways such as a RUN's abilities as a whole.

The point I'm trying to get at right here is that anyone can argue just about any buff isn't necessary to the job. If Runes are necessary to RUN and Maneuvers are necessary to PUP then in what way aren't RDM's buffs necessary to RDM? My job doesn't simply lose DMG when I'm dispelled, I lose the ability to live. Protect makes up a good 1/4th or so of my DEF, Phalanx aids in my damage reduction greatly, bar-spells can mean the difference between a spell killing me and only taking me to half health, it's a clear matter of life and death with these buffs in some situations. What if I'm in a backline situation? Refresh can be an important buff, if MP is too low and I get hit with it I can lose my greatest source of MP, not to mention increased recast timers due to Haste II's removal, the fact I likely have to rebuff the entire party with spells that cost tons of MP like Haste II's 70 MP, and so on. If we're going to talk about what's required for a job in terms of the job still working at it's core you have to assume what things are grouped in here and aren't. RUN with or without Runes is still a magic tank, it still has high MDB from traits, it still has MDT in gear form, the only things it's missing are the JAs it has which are 15 seconds away, much closer than the minutes it'd take if it were a JA reset.

You're both defining these things as somewhat definitive and necessary for the job and yet at the exact same time saying nothing RDM has for instance is in the same category, to me, that's extremely false.

[Damane]

So a RDM without any buffs at all for defense or offense is perfectly capable of functioning at it's core...

and at the exact same time RUN and PUP require Maneuvers and Runes, even though Maneuvers take less than 30 seconds to get 3 of them up, Runes only taking 15 seconds.

If a job's ability to function is what's in question I really don't see how 15 seconds without Runes, which don't get me wrong hurts RUN, is so devastating to the job that it requires an immunity to dispel but at the same time a job like RDM whose power and survival are almost entirely dependant on it's buffs , gets no resistance or immunity for anything it has. A PUP loses a lot with Maneuvers too, their automaton from what I understand becomes much less useful during this period as a result but in all honesty if we're going to go down the road of saying it's only keeping buffs that are necessary for the job to function, do these qualify? I mean it's not like the Automaton is being dispelled, only it's Maneuvers, which take all of 30sec to reactivate before you continue on your way. I use these time frames because they are small waits, if you want to talk about dispel being important as a debuff then I'd think making an Automaton weaker would be one no? The same for removing some of RUN's MEVA and JAs for a short time? I mean we already have NMs that reset all JA timers which effectively destroys the differences between jobs in most ways such as a RUN's abilities as a whole.

The point I'm trying to get at right here is that anyone can argue just about any buff isn't necessary to the job. If Runes are necessary to RUN and Maneuvers are necessary to PUP then in what way aren't RDM's buffs necessary to RDM? My job doesn't simply lose DMG when I'm dispelled, I lose the ability to live. Protect makes up a good 1/4th or so of my DEF, Phalanx aids in my damage reduction greatly, bar-spells can mean the difference between a spell killing me and only taking me to half health, it's a clear matter of life and death with these buffs in some situations. What if I'm in a backline situation? Refresh can be an important buff, if MP is too low and I get hit with it I can lose my greatest source of MP, not to mention increased recast timers due to Haste II's removal, the fact I likely have to rebuff the entire party with spells that cost tons of MP like Haste II's 70 MP, and so on. If we're going to talk about what's required for a job in terms of the job still working at it's core you have to assume what things are grouped in here and aren't. RUN with or without Runes is still a magic tank, it still has high MDB from traits, it still has MDT in gear form, the only things it's missing are the JAs it has which are 15 seconds away, much closer than the minutes it'd take if it were a JA reset.

You're both defining these things as somewhat definitive and necessary for the job and yet at the exact same time saying nothing RDM has for instance is in the same category, to me, that's extremely false.

all the buffs you mentioned loosing, apply to other jobs too, a PUP SAM RUN etc withotu protect V etc will take just as much dmg as your RDM etc. while those buffs are vital, they arent a necessery core part to fullfill your jobs duty when being displled, this is the big difference between runes and maneuvers and the buffs you listed. Afflatus Solace is a nice buff, but a whm can heal very good without it, yes they loose potency, but they can still cure. a PUP or RUN loose their core mechanic/ability when they loose runes/maneuvers, this is the big difference, you can reaccess all your spells/abilitys when your buffs are gone, PUP and RUN? not so much they loose Runes and maneuvers and cant access over half of their abilitys or cant control their maton properly.

example:
SAM: if SAM wouldnt be able to WS without hasso on, then hasso is a necessity to be active for the job to work at its core function, hence it would be undispellable. But as it is SAMs can WS whenever their TP alow it and have access to all abilitys whenever their timer allows it without hasso. So hasso is a potent buff, but doesnt preserver core functions of a job.

another example:
if WHM could only cast cures with afflatus Solace on, then AFflatus Solace with be a core function of the job, makeing it a buff to be undispellable. But Whm can cast cures fine without afflatus solace, makeing it a potent buff that can be dispelled and not a vital/core definign buff.