Griffinclaw Uriel Blade and Plds

[Kavik]

The weaponskills from the campaign weapons need to be available to the jobs that can use the campaign weapons. Uriel Blade in particular would be a great asset to plds. An AoE flash on a sword would not be overpowered in the hate department and pld already has Circle Blade for the AoE Factor. There is just no reason other than letting NPCs have something players cannot obtain (other than in campaign battle). Or at the very least make a 119 weapon that has this ability on it. An 'easily undertaken' quest, which would still be a lot of work, for this ws would be to do a certain number of uriel blades while in campaign battle. Starting from scratch and working off a 5 day re-eval deadline, it would take someone 100 days just to be able to buy the sword. For those of us that have been playing forever and already have a high medal rank we could do it quite easily. Which would make it a good nod to those of us who have been playing through all the content both recent and old. I'm sure this applies to other jobs/weapons as well, but i'm main job pld, and pld is the only one of my lvled jobs i truly enjoy.

Total side note: Crusade needs to be an increase in enmity cap, not an increase in enmity gain. I can see the point of not just giving any certain job an enmity cap over everyone elses, there may be an instance where you don't want your pld to have absolute enmity, but were crusade to be a hate cap boost it would become optional to have more enmity or the same amount as all other jobs.

[ZoMBie343]

I agree 100%!

[Camate]

Greetings,

We do not have any plans at the moment to unlock Uriel Blade for use outside of Campaign.


Total side note: Crusade needs to be an increase in enmity cap, not an increase in enmity gain. I can see the point of not just giving any certain job an enmity cap over everyone elses, there may be an instance where you don't want your pld to have absolute enmity, but were crusade to be a hate cap boost it would become optional to have more enmity or the same amount as all other jobs.

While we will not be making adjustments to Crusade, we will be increasing the cap for the amount of enmity effect that can be gained by equipment and other avenues in the next version update.

With this, you’ll be able to attain an even higher amount of enmity when combining Crusade and equipment with “enmity +” on it making it possible for paladin to maintain enmity on their target.

[Kavik]

While I'm disappointed about Uriel Blade I'm immensely glad to hear about the enmity changes. I look forward to the changes this will bring to tanks ability to do their jobs.

[Aeron]

Greetings,

We do not have any plans at the moment to unlock Uriel Blade for use outside of Campaign.



While we will not be making adjustments to Crusade, we will be increasing the cap for the amount of enmity effect that can be gained by equipment and other avenues in the next version update.

With this, you’ll be able to attain an even higher amount of enmity when combining Crusade and equipment with “enmity +” on it making it possible for paladin to maintain enmity on their target.

Can you please elaborate on this? What I'm taking from that statement is that you are increasing the gear enmity cap above 100. Once again and I may be wrong , but it sounds like you are just adjusting the rate at which enmity is generated in terms of the amount per action. This will do NOTHING for when hate is capped for all dds. The only thing that matters once hate is capped is round delay because all actions generally produce enough enmity to recap the individual. Tanks and I mean all tanks need some type of mechanic either lower their attack delay (lower then a mnk) I can understand a negative attack penalty if you decide to go this route or a X amount of time hate lock mechanic ma/ja. While your at it make it so cover can be applied alliance wide and is on a lower cool down.

[Balloon]

Can you please elaborate on this? What I'm taking from that statement is that you are increasing the gear enmity cap above 100. Once again and I may be wrong , but it sounds like you are just adjusting the rate at which enmity is generated in terms of the amount per action. This will do NOTHING for when hate is capped for all dds. The only thing that matters once hate is capped is round delay because all actions generally produce enough enmity to recap the individual. Tanks and I mean all tanks need some type of mechanic either lower their attack delay (lower then a mnk) I can understand a negative attack penalty if you decide to go this route or a X amount of time hate lock mechanic ma/ja. While your at it make it so cover can be applied alliance wide and is on a lower cool down.

This is what I was getting from this as well, and honestly, it's not going to be enough.

I'd rather see Enmity decay from attacks and damage at a steady rate, higher for non-tank jobs.

Currently, the enmity gained from a 5000 dmg ws, which isn't rare, generates a lot of enmity quickly. Then white damage.

I'd be curious to know if the standard damage multiplier for this is adjusted for ilvl equipment, presumably if it does then a 5000 dmg ws generates 0.3*80*5000/161.5 (Though I'm assuming that the standard dmg is floored), or 743 enmity/10,000. Attack speed for party content is insane, ws rate is insane, so capping CE is trivial. Getting hit for 1100dmg only resets this by 1042. Basically, it'd cap again in seconds.

The enmity changes have been half measures and they need a proper fix.

What I'd LOVE at this point, what I think is desperately needed, it some kind of sub-jobbable way to shed Enmity, like Enmity douse. Because hell, black mage does NOT need enmity douse, but most other jobs absolutely do.

[Aeron]

This is what I was getting from this as well, and honestly, it's not going to be enough.

I'd rather see Enmity decay from attacks and damage at a steady rate, higher for non-tank jobs.

Currently, the enmity gained from a 5000 dmg ws, which isn't rare, generates a lot of enmity quickly. Then white damage.

I'd be curious to know if the standard damage multiplier for this is adjusted for ilvl equipment, presumably if it does then a 5000 dmg ws generates 0.3*80*5000/161.5 (Though I'm assuming that the standard dmg is floored), or 743 enmity/10,000. Attack speed for party content is insane, ws rate is insane, so capping CE is trivial. Getting hit for 1100dmg only resets this by 1042. Basically, it'd cap again in seconds.

The enmity changes have been half measures and they need a proper fix.

You're absolutely right the changes have been half measures. They need to go in to ever job and set individual job enmity multipliers. They need to give players more incentive to use -enmity gear or raise the cap on -enmity to 100. This is basically what rng can achieve with decoy shot and their relic so I see no reason to have the -enmity cap anymore. Non-tank jobs need a significant modification to enmity decay rate. They could even have it so that -enmity gear effected enmity decay rate which would actually give them a reason to use it for when the hit the enmity cap to decrease their own enmity while still being able to attack. The trick would be to make it so that when the -enmity gear was on the amount of enmity lost through decay was greater then the gain from auto attacking. The DD would be unable to ws during this time because of the amount of enmity generated of course because of this the amount of decay per tick would have to be very substantial when -enmity gear was equipped.

In order for the above adjustment to take place however we would have to see an increase in the enmity cap. DDs capped enmity wayyyyyyyy too fast for any kind of control to take place through gear at this time. You could probably set up something with gearswap but the average player would be unable to account for such changes fast enough I think.

[dasva]

Increasing the cap on gear +enmity which is incredibly hard to cap and not all that useful to begin with... great this completely solves the problem of everyone having capped hate the entire fight <.<

[Byrth]

Well, it depends. This could do a few things:
1) Sentinel appears to give +100 equipment enmity for some reason, so currently there's no point in using Enmity gear during Sentinel. This change will likely let us benefit from Enmity gear worn during Sentinel, which should let us build hate faster. If they raise the cap to +200 Enmity, for instance, then we could build hate 1.5x faster during Sentinel.
2) SE mentioned that Enmity affects CE loss from damage now, but they did not provide specifics. It is possible that PLD will be able to eliminate CE loss from damage when stacking enough Enmity after the update that Camate spoke of.

If those two things are both true, PLD could cap CE quickly using Sentinel and then basically just ride it out for the rest of the fight with high frequency VE spam (like hasted sword hits, for instance).

[Aeron]

Well, it depends. This could do a few things:
1) Sentinel appears to give +100 equipment enmity for some reason, so currently there's no point in using Enmity gear during Sentinel. This change will likely let us benefit from Enmity gear worn during Sentinel, which should let us build hate faster. If they raise the cap to +200 Enmity, for instance, then we could build hate 1.5x faster during Sentinel.
2) SE mentioned that Enmity affects CE loss from damage now, but they did not provide specifics. It is possible that PLD will be able to eliminate CE loss from damage when stacking enough Enmity after the update that Camate spoke of.

If those two things are both true, PLD could cap CE quickly using Sentinel and then basically just ride it out for the rest of the fight with high frequency VE spam (like hasted sword hits, for instance).

Ok while this is true, it is only valuable at the beginning of the fight. I have tried to use this scenario before and it doesn't work. I have a 70 enmity build that I use with crusade to get 100 enmity which should mean that I'm not losing CE. Even having locked CE mnks are still able to pull hate once the hate cap is reached. Its all about delay at that point and pld doesn't get innate access to job haste which is what the job desperately needs in capped hate situations. Acc becomes a huge issue as well because the set that I have to use to achieve 100enmity with crusade sucks for acc too.

Oh on a side note of delay is there any way that the Devs could look into lowering the delay of Burtgang 264 is really high. The sword would sever a better function in terms of hated capped situations if the delay was lower.

[Aeron]

Increasing the cap on gear +enmity which is incredibly hard to cap and not all that useful to begin with... great this completely solves the problem of everyone having capped hate the entire fight <.<

Lol dasva, this is exactly what I was thinking when I read the response. Devs please listen to us we ACTUALLY play this game, +enmity as a means of just increasing the amount of enmity generated per action does nothing for hate capped situations. Now if you made it so that +/- enmity gear effected the decay rate of VE for -enmity and for +enmity gave a given amount of enmity per sec that would actually do something. The -enmity effect on the decay rate would have to be significant though and you would probably want to make the amount of -enmity needed a lot too. Given that crusade is +30 enmity if the ratio of enmity per sec gained was 1:1 then that would mean someone would only need another 30 enmity to lock VE which is really what is needed.

[Byrth]

I have a 70 enmity build that I use with crusade to get 100 enmity which should mean that I'm not losing CE.

Got any proof? I have seen no testing on the extent to which Enmity reduces CE loss.

And yeah, other jobs will still pull hate at capped enmity. However, they will lose CE and the monster will turn back to the PLD if they take substantial damage (even if the damage was AoE). So melees will need to be able to survive all attacks, but they wouldn't need to be able to tank necessarily. The problem right now is that PLDs often lose CE at about the same rate as the melee when there's a big AoE attack, and then melees gain it back faster.


Also, between Enlight and Swordplay, PLD/RUN is pretty good in the accuracy department. Its Acc won't hold up in VD fights, but I have yet to find a D fight where Madrigals + Sushi + Enlight/Swordplay wasn't sufficient to cap my hit rate even in my DT TP set.

[Aeron]

Got any proof? I have seen no testing on the extent to which Enmity reduces CE loss.

And yeah, other jobs will still pull hate at capped enmity. However, they will lose CE and the monster will turn back to the PLD if they take substantial damage (even if the damage was AoE). So melees will need to be able to survive all attacks, but they wouldn't need to be able to tank necessarily. The problem right now is that PLDs often lose CE at about the same rate as the melee when there's a big AoE attack, and then melees gain it back faster.


Also, between Enlight and Swordplay, PLD/RUN is pretty good in the accuracy department. Its Acc won't hold up in VD fights, but I have yet to find a D fight where Madrigals + Sushi + Enlight/Swordplay wasn't sufficient to cap my hit rate even in my DT TP set.

The key word in there is should. I know some of the piece I was using have direct CE loss reduction values like burtgang, creed cuisses, and creed collar and that's on top of +70 enmity from gear.

Jpwiki says lvl99 Burtgang is -20%, Creed Cuisses +2 is 10%, Creed Collar is 5% on the CE loss reduction. So that's 35% CE loss reduction on top of 100 enmity(70gear 30 crusade).

That is a completely false statement seeing as how I take significantly less dmg (meaning I lose less enmity right there) from AOEs then melees do and with the set I mentioned even if I wasn't at a true 100% CE loss reduction im still at a huge reduction. The main issue is the rate at which melees gain it back more then any other factor and how low their attack delay can get.

If you are able to maintain buff then yes acc can be pretty good but in some fights especially in delve 2 with buffs being constantly dispelled acc becomes and issue which was mainly what I was referring to.

[Damane]

This is what I was getting from this as well, and honestly, it's not going to be enough.

I'd rather see Enmity decay from attacks and damage at a steady rate, higher for non-tank jobs.

Currently, the enmity gained from a 5000 dmg ws, which isn't rare, generates a lot of enmity quickly. Then white damage.

I'd be curious to know if the standard damage multiplier for this is adjusted for ilvl equipment, presumably if it does then a 5000 dmg ws generates 0.3*80*5000/161.5 (Though I'm assuming that the standard dmg is floored), or 743 enmity/10,000. Attack speed for party content is insane, ws rate is insane, so capping CE is trivial. Getting hit for 1100dmg only resets this by 1042. Basically, it'd cap again in seconds.

The enmity changes have been half measures and they need a proper fix.

What I'd LOVE at this point, what I think is desperately needed, it some kind of sub-jobbable way to shed Enmity, like Enmity douse. Because hell, black mage does NOT need enmity douse, but most other jobs absolutely do.

i dont like the bold part, the last thing i want is for melee tanking to be destroyed. The one (above many others) thing I love about FFXI is that it doesnt need the holy trifecta of jobs through everything. Destroying melee tanking would do more harm then good (or would you like to shout 3920392 hours for a capable tank?). affect tank enmity holding yes, reduce the capability for melees to hold hate? no thx!

destroying melee enmity would steer up another whole level of bullshit and problems. another solution would be to make super jump a lvl 49 ability (that would force melees tough to sub /drg ¬.¬)

[Balloon]

I considered a mage a non-tank job in this case? They'd have ways to reduce CE too.

Melee jobs at the minute just generate enmity in a way that Mage jobs can't really equal, A cure 5 can generate anyway between 200/350 to 400/700 depending on how much enmity - gear you have during cast, and a single swing for 330 damage generates 49CE/147VE. Seems kinda trivial, but think about how many attack rounds can go off in that time, and then weaponskills on top of that. Caps crazy fast.

In my googling and reading Kanicans livejournal I found out that Coronach was a static 80CE/240VE. I guess I kinda knew intuitively that Coronach was insanely useful, but that just seems silly broke.

Anyway, that was just a quick idea, I just think something needs to be changed drastically, these are half measures.

[Damane]

I considered a mage a non-tank job in this case? They'd have ways to reduce CE too.

Melee jobs at the minute just generate enmity in a way that Mage jobs can't really equal, A cure 5 can generate anyway between 200/350 to 400/700 depending on how much enmity - gear you have during cast, and a single swing for 330 damage generates 49CE/147VE. Seems kinda trivial, but think about how many attack rounds can go off in that time, and then weaponskills on top of that. Caps crazy fast.

In my googling and reading Kanicans livejournal I found out that Coronach was a static 80CE/240VE. I guess I kinda knew intuitively that Coronach was insanely useful, but that just seems silly broke.

Anyway, that was just a quick idea, I just think something needs to be changed drastically, these are half measures.

cures dont generate that much enmity anymore especiall with the tranquil heart job trait, the amount is pitiful since they adressed enmity values when adoulin was released.

[Aeron]

I considered a mage a non-tank job in this case? They'd have ways to reduce CE too.

Melee jobs at the minute just generate enmity in a way that Mage jobs can't really equal, A cure 5 can generate anyway between 200/350 to 400/700 depending on how much enmity - gear you have during cast, and a single swing for 330 damage generates 49CE/147VE. Seems kinda trivial, but think about how many attack rounds can go off in that time, and then weaponskills on top of that. Caps crazy fast.

In my googling and reading Kanicans livejournal I found out that Coronach was a static 80CE/240VE. I guess I kinda knew intuitively that Coronach was insanely useful, but that just seems silly broke. Anyway, that was just a quick idea, I just think something needs to be changed drastically, these are half measures.

No "seems" about it, it is broken from an enmity stand point. Rng has a strangle hold on enmity control right now. The Devs need to correct this huge imbalance in the system right now. Ppl want to cry out how broken ochain is on block rate, imo Coronach is just as bad only its a ws that can be spammed.

[Balloon]

cures dont generate that much enmity anymore especiall with the tranquil heart job trait, the amount is pitiful since they adressed enmity values when adoulin was released.

You're right, I was using old values for Cure 5. The new adjusted ones ones are 300/600

With Tranquil Heart it'd be something like (300CE/600VE) *0.5(-50 Gear Cap)*0.75(Tranquil Heart) .. or 112CE/225VE. Point is you can't really generate enough hate with cures to even compete with damage generated enmity.

Hell, I didn't even factor the effects of Divine Benison there, and I should.

If the CE Modifier seems to increase how it always has then it should be at 40/79 for cures using the hp cured formula. It doesn't work like this. It was changed to 40/170.

Edit: Fixes.

[Aeron]

I just did a test with +100 enmity and I can confirm that +enmity at least for CE reduction is not a 1:1% ratio. I used one mob and had me and a partner cast blank gaze on it while I took dmg and they casted libra. We watched as Segagamers enmity % rose relative to mine with the only difference being that I was taking dmg meaning that +100enmity doesn't completely reduce CE loss. Libra doesn't produce enmity so it had no effect on the test and I had to use crusade which it the enmity value was more would have only made it more difficult of sega to claim. Instead with each casting of libra sega relative enmity % rose at a pretty consistent rate eventually pulling hate. What the actually ratio is im not certain.

[Damane]

the fact that they nerfed rune enchantment enmity to 0 after the last update doestn help tanking much either ¬.¬ (just because they made them undispellable, wohoo...)

[Martel]

You're right, I was using old values for Cure 5. The new adjusted ones ones are 300/600

With Tranquil Heart it'd be something like (300CE/600VE) *0.5(-50 Gear Cap)*0.75(Tranquil Heart) .. or 112CE/225VE. Point is you can't really generate enough hate with cures to even compete with damage generated enmity.

Hell, I didn't even factor the effects of Divine Benison there, and I should.

If the CE Modifier seems to increase how it always has then it should be at 40/79 for cures using the hp cured formula. It doesn't work like this. It was changed to 40/170.

Edit: Fixes.
Divine benison only works on status removal spells. So no, don't factor for it.

[Balloon]

Divine benison only works on status removal spells. So no, don't factor for it.

Good job I'm lazy, I guess.

Though maybe I'd have read the description more closely if I weren't.

[Aramaic]

Camate wouldn't the simplest solution be for Pld to have a higher enmity cap than every other job. I mean if the Dev's truly want Pld to be the job for tanking purposes. Increasing the gear cap doesn't do shit when the cap will still be the same for melee who reach it insanely fast still by just pumping out damage. I currently wear every piece of Enmity + you can get for every action I use to maintain monster focus but when melee reach the same cap that I am at its a crap shoot at that point.

[Damane]

Camate wouldn't the simplest solution be for Pld to have a higher enmity cap than every other job. I mean if the Dev's truly want Pld to be the job for tanking purposes. Increasing the gear cap doesn't do shit when the cap will still be the same for melee who reach it insanely fast still by just pumping out damage. I currently wear every piece of Enmity + you can get for every action I use to maintain monster focus but when melee reach the same cap that I am at its a crap shoot at that point.

RUN... NIN... come on, you left 2 tanks out ¬.¬

[Aramaic]

Sorry didn't mean to slight those two jobs. But the majority of game content is multi mob tanking which pld thirves at better do to how shields work. Just annoyed that once melee catch up to cap there is no way for us to keep mob from rotating around a lot since we don't have higher caps.

[Damane]

Sorry didn't mean to slight those two jobs. But the majority of game content is multi mob tanking which pld thirves at better do to how shields work. Just annoyed that once melee catch up to cap there is no way for us to keep mob from rotating around a lot since we don't have higher caps.

where is multitanking? if you mean SCNM20 + 10 multi tanking, have done that on RUN too without much trouble on tough duo with a RDM friend, so very tough shoulnt be an issue its just a waste of time, thats an easy multi tank. the only multi tank BC that is dangerous is YXZ shikarae fight on tough and Divine might 2 for tanks that arent pld. the majority of the game content is single mob tanking.

[dasva]

Camate wouldn't the simplest solution be for Pld to have a higher enmity cap than every other job. I mean if the Dev's truly want Pld to be the job for tanking purposes. Increasing the gear cap doesn't do shit when the cap will still be the same for melee who reach it insanely fast still by just pumping out damage. I currently wear every piece of Enmity + you can get for every action I use to maintain monster focus but when melee reach the same cap that I am at its a crap shoot at that point.

That would be simple but would completely defeat the enmity system as well. It's supposed to be a give and take to get/keep it. Being able to just sit at a higher cap would reduce tanking into just getting capped, turtling/enmity gearing up and keeping up basic defensive buffs.

The flaw in the system currently (well has been since 75) is the cap. Largely it's because of how dmg enmity is calculated. Since with our current system it's just level multiplier X dmg. This sets up really dumb things like not being able to cap at all from dmg on low hp mobs and reaching the cap after doing 1% dmg.

I mean if you think about it enmity is how much of a threat a mob considers you so there is no reason why dmg should be that static. I mean what mob would consider someone that took off 1% just as much of a threat as another mob considers someone who did took off 90%? Is that stubbed toe really just as big of a threat than someone spamming flash all day everyday or the guy who did 50% to the same mob but hey everybodies capped

[Camate]

Hello, everyone!

The development team has been discussing the current situation of enmity as it relates to battle balance and they have quite a bit of adjustments planned in addition to the ones mentioned yesterday in the job adjustments announcement (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/43503-dev1225-Job-Adjustments) for the August version update. So with that said, I’d like to reiterate those adjustments as well as share other planned adjustments in one nice post about enmity.


Enmity overall
In the August version update we will be doubling the enmity cap for enmity generated through job abilities, magic spells, equipment, and other avenues.


Paladin
We’ll be making adjustments to certain paladin abilities so that the amount of enmity accrued is increased in the August version update. Along with the increase enmity cap, we feel this should make it much easier to maintain your target.


Rune fencer
While we do not have any plans at the moment to make adjustments to rune fencer’s abilities in the same way we will for paladin, we would like to look into adjustments based on feedback after the August version update.


Ninja
As mentioned previously, we will be making adjustments to dual wield in the future. We feel that these adjustments will allow ninjas to use weapon skills more frequently which will allow them to generate enmity more easily.


Other jobs
In regards to adjustments or the addition of abilities that allow you to shed enmity, we do not have plans to give this type of ability to all damage dealing jobs.

However, when it comes to thief, they are able to steal enmity from party members by using Collaborator and Accomplice, but they are limited in methods for getting rid of their hate. We feel that some kind of adjustment is needed for this.

Additionally, similar to thief, we are looking into adding abilities to other jobs that will allow them to steal or reduce enmity from other players.

[Balloon]

Can you clarify something?

When you say "the enmity cap for enmity generated through job abilities, magic spells, equipment, and other avenues."

Does this refer to Volatile Enmity generated by these abilities or just the effects of +Enmity (like gear, I'm assuming it just refers to like Sentinel/Crusade/Equipment)? That's not the cap people are talking about. Something needs to be done about enmity. It's a terribly broken system currently.

Also, NIN being able to ws more will do very little of anything once CE is capped. Something needs to be done about the whole system, not just a patch job. It's untennable to have PLD/RUN/NIN in content where you don't also have a lot of Rangers.

Edit: When would you ever take RUN or NIN. It's really hard to generate any feedback when it's just so unlikely that someone would go RUN to anything.

[Tennotsukai]

Other jobs
In regards to adjustments or the addition of abilities that allow you to shed enmity, we do not have plans to give this type of ability to all damage dealing jobs.

However, when it comes to thief, they are able to steal enmity from party members by using Collaborator and Accomplice, but they are limited in methods for getting rid of their hate. We feel that some kind of adjustment is needed for this.

Additionally, similar to thief, we are looking into adding abilities to other jobs that will allow them to steal or reduce enmity from other players.
[/list]

Please give blue mage an enmity down spell. Currently, we dominate hate gain through our spells. It would be nice if we could remove our hate somehow or dump it on someone else. You could always give hydro shot a boost, but I prefer a new spell.

[Malthar]

Camate, is it possible for the devs to consider a job trait/ability for paladins so that when they cast cure on another party member some of that PC's enmity is transferred to the paladin based on the amount cured?

[Aeron]

I think this is a really good idea. I already heal other party members sometimes and if you aren't going to give all jobs hate reduction tools might as well give tanks (plds/runs/nin) the ability to reduce the total enmity that other party members have while adding it to the tanks own total value. Though if they do this can they please provide plds and nins the ability through gear to reach the fast cast cap.

Edit: Just read Camate's post and I have to say wow. I am very excited to see how these adjustments translate. Thank you.

[Karbuncle]

Giving THF a way to shed enmity... after all these years... all the suggestions I have personally made, as well as others... I'm happy to see they're considering this.

If i may be as bold... Theres a few ways you can do this...

"Innocent" -Shed (25/50%) of your enmity.

"Accuse" - Plants 25% of your enmity on target player.
"Frame" - Plants 50% of your enmity on target player.

These kinds of abilities would be nice for THFs role in enmity control... or if you're thinking something like "Hide" Shedding enmity... I'm okay with that so long as it sheds enmity regardless of being spotted or not.

[Sekhmet]

Hello, everyone!


Rune fencer
While we do not have any plans at the moment to make adjustments to rune fencer’s abilities in the same way we will for paladin, we would like to look into adjustments based on feedback after the August version update.

[/list]

Camate, I love Rune Fencer, it's my current favorite job. That said, I am rather disappointed to see no current plans to deal with Rune Fencer's enmity issues. On my server, very few ls's even give Run the time of day, because mainly of their inability to maintain enmity. I often get passed over as a potential tank, even on NM's that use a lot of magic damage, which Run was made for.

I understand that your gonna wait and see what happens to Pld with the august adjustments, and I understand there's a lot of things the dev's need to take into consideration with enmity in general and Run in particular. But I would like to pass on my opinion that Run needs a innate enmity tool, like Provoke. In fact, I don't see the issue with giving a provoke-like ability for all the tank jobs, I.E. Pld, Nin, Run. If subbing those jobs is an issue, perhaps make it an over level 50 ability, or make it unable to be used as a sub, like Whm's Aflatus abilities or Nin's Yonin. If there is such an issue with giving us abilities like this, I would appreciate a reason why. Thank you for your consideration.

[Sasaraixx]

Will the SCH enmity spells ever get adjusted? :(

[FrankReynolds]

Ninja
As mentioned previously, we will be making adjustments to dual wield in the future. We feel that these adjustments will allow ninjas to use weapon skills more frequently which will allow them to generate enmity more easily.


[/list]

I think you guys are ignoring the glaring issue which is that the only things that people use a tank for are things that cannot be blink tanked. Even if ninja somehow became the king of emnity, you would just die as soon as anything that required a tank turned it's attention to you.Either that, or start spamming utsusemi and lose all damage output and emnity generation in the process. Ninja needs to have some form of magic / aoe / physical defense besides shadows. Otherwise it's just a crappy DD with a couple extra shadows. In other words only good for soloing old content.

[Raydeus]

Greetings,

We do not have any plans at the moment to unlock Uriel Blade for use outside of Campaign.

Speaking of this, while I understand why the devs wouldn't want to deal with adding those WS outside campaign is there a chance to be able to unlock them for use in Campaign with other weapons? I'm thinking something like 3 ammo items that had the latent to unlock each of the WS while in Campaign.

And as always, even better if there was a quest line to unlock them.

[Martel]

Camate, I love Rune Fencer, it's my current favorite job. That said, I am rather disappointed to see no current plans to deal with Rune Fencer's enmity issues. On my server, very few ls's even give Run the time of day, because mainly of their inability to maintain enmity. I often get passed over as a potential tank, even on NM's that use a lot of magic damage, which Run was made for.

I understand that your gonna wait and see what happens to Pld with the august adjustments, and I understand there's a lot of things the dev's need to take into consideration with enmity in general and Run in particular. But I would like to pass on my opinion that Run needs a innate enmity tool, like Provoke. In fact, I don't see the issue with giving a provoke-like ability for all the tank jobs, I.E. Pld, Nin, Run. If subbing those jobs is an issue, perhaps make it an over level 50 ability, or make it unable to be used as a sub, like Whm's Aflatus abilities or Nin's Yonin. If there is such an issue with giving us abilities like this, I would appreciate a reason why. Thank you for your consideration.The reason for not giving RUN any additional Enmity actions, would most likely be because they don't need anymore. They've already got the single most ridiculous enmity arsenal in the game. And can sub a variety of actions from other jobs.

But since I've been over this before, I'm gonna quote/link a previous post. The post is mostly on topic for this thread as well.


While I agree that DMG dealt should still generate CE....

RUN's problem is that it has the physical durability of a wet paper sack. Not that it can't generate enough enmity.

In terms of enmity generation, RUN is definitively superior to PLD. RUN has a ridiculous array of enmity tools. Tons of JA, all with notable CE values. And two very good native enmity spells, flash and foil. And foil, being self targeted, generates enmity for every mob on the hate list.


Action CE VE
Elemental Sforzo 1800 7200
Vallation 450 900
Valliance 450 900
Embolden 160 320
Swordplay 160 320
Pflug 450 900
Gambit 640 1280
Liement 450 900
One For All 160 320
Batutta 450 900
Rayke 640 1260
Runes 40 160

Foil 320 880
Flash 180 1280

A RUN/PLD using sentinel could Cap CE(10k) in 10 seconds. Mind you, That'd take perfect timing with JA use. So lets say 15~20 for a more realistic value.

Of course, doing this requires RUN's SP, and a rather non standard sub. But even without /PLD, you could still hit 5K~ CE in the same time frame. And that's before accounting for enmity gear.

Furthermore, they have massive native fast cast letting them spam their enmity spells far faster than a PLD.

Wanna see PLD's enmity tool list?


Action CE VE
Invincible 1 7200
Holy circle 1 20
Shield Bash 1 900
Sentinel 1 1800
Cover 1 300
Rampart 1 300
Fealty 1 300
Chivalry 1 300
Divine Emblem 1 300
Palisade 0 1800

Flash 180 1280
Enlight 20 180
Reprisal 0 640

Enmity generation-wise PLD's only advantages are greater access to enmity+ gear, and sentinel(which is sub-able anyway.)

Although PLD does has a great advantage in not Losing as much CE. Both via taking less damage, and having enmity+ on already good PDT gear. Which is good, 'cause PLD has a hell of a lot harder timer building CE in the first place. A PLD that wants to build good CE, has to sub /BLU or /DRK for additional CE actions.

Also, using /war for enmity purposes would be really silly. Provoke is really not that good an enmity tool. And cures, while useful for survival purposes, generate truly terrible enmity these days. And RUN isn't going to lose and fast cast from changing subs. They can easily cap fast cast. +60% fast cast during vallation or valiance(which can be full timed via alternating) with 5/5 inspiration merits and Relic aug.

What RUN needs to be equal to PLD, is the ability to survive heavy physical damage. They've got the enmity thing covered even if they didn't melee at all.This post was from before Crusade was added, so RUN is doing even better now. Although they do still have a painful lack of ilvl enmity+ gear. Still has higher enmity generation than PLD though.

If RUN has an enmity issue, it's the same one all tanks have. The enmity cap.

[Mavrick]

Please give blue mage an enmity down spell. Currently, we dominate hate gain through our spells. It would be nice if we could remove our hate somehow or dump it on someone else. You could always give hydro shot a boost, but I prefer a new spell.


I think a modified version of Pile Pitch (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Pile_Pitch) as a UL spell would be perfect. Enmity Down 50% or ~90% every 5 mins seems reasonable.

[Sekhmet]

The reason for not giving RUN any additional Enmity actions, would most likely be because they don't need anymore. They've already got the single most ridiculous enmity arsenal in the game. And can sub a variety of actions from other jobs.

lots of stats, etc.

If RUN has an enmity issue, it's the same one all tanks have. The enmity cap.

ok, well maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but can you explain to me why even with these enmity tools, which I do use btw, a single mnk using 1 WS rips hate off of a Run, and the Run can't get it back? That have to do with the enmity cap as well? or are the mnks generating VE so fast that it overwelms the 1:30 minute, 3 minute and 5 minute timers of these enmity generating abilities?

[Ataraxia]

Hello, everyone!

Additionally, similar to thief, we are looking into adding abilities to other jobs that will allow them to steal or reduce enmity from other players.
[/list]

That whole sentence got me interested. I'm looking forward to it and i hope DNC is included. =)

[Karbuncle]

waitwaitwaitwait... Looking into other jobs being able to steal/reduce enmity? from other players? I missed that part.

I've got mixed feelings about that. One one hand I have to think "Maybe they'll give this ability to some of the less useful jobs, like SMN, GEO, RUN, and so forth...", on the other hand I have to think "Do they even know what they want THF to do anymore?"

Enmity control was the one thing they wanted THF to do well, it was basically the job description last time they went over a manifesto of job adjustments... "Masters of the flow of battle" or something. Then Decoy shot came out and now THF is laughable compared to RNG anyway... might as well throw "Enmity master" in the "Trash Bin of what we want THF to do" next to "Deal Damage" and "Treasure Hunter".

Wonder what our next THF job manifesto description will be...


"Master of soloing 75 content for gil, we're looking to give THF the ability to lay on the ground and cry deeply at its utter lack of uses in the game! Unfortunately programming the tears with just the right amount of crushed dreams from years of half-updates and wasted potential is taking longer than we expected, but its well on the way for 2017"

No but srsly, in all good humor... I'm hoping if these abilities are to be given away, its in low number and to jobs that actually need them... not something like WHM, WAR, MNK, SAM, etc... jobs who already have it good.

[Martel]

ok, well maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but can you explain to me why even with these enmity tools, which I do use btw, a single mnk using 1 WS rips hate off of a Run, and the Run can't get it back? That have to do with the enmity cap as well? or are the mnks generating VE so fast that it overwelms the 1:30 minute, 3 minute and 5 minute timers of these enmity generating abilities?Let me rephrase this. RUN's enmity generation abilities are sufficient(and still better than PLD's), in situations where having tank is viable at all. And, last I checked, Melee+Tank isn't one of those(not that, I admit, I've tried that lately.)

And giving you provoke isn't going to change that.

Although things did seem to get a bit better after the dmg enmity nerfs. But you'd still hit cap in fairly short order, even if you did stay ahead of DDs. But while dmg enmity has been reduced, the amount of dmg players deal has shot up again since then. The WS and SC adjustments being notable factors. I think it's still better than it was pre dmg enmity nerf, But I'm not really inclined to try to model DPS vs JA/spell spam atm. Even assuming I had the dmg enmity modifiers for high lvl mobs(which I don't.)

But now I'm rambling. Anyway, what's needed isn't provoke-esque actions for RUN, or any tank job. What's needed is further, major, adjustments to the enmity system.

First, address the enmity cap. Because until that changes, it doesn't matter how fast we build enmity, we all get stuck at the same point. Then we get the mob spinning like crazy constantly.

Second, something needs to be done about dmg enmity(Probably. I haven't really checked in detail to see what a melee DD's enmity generation would be like now, and if a tank can conceivably surpass it) But it's a difficult issue. It's already been adjusted twice. We don't want to nerf it too far, or DD tanking becomes impossible. While I want tanks to have a place, I don't want them to be absolutely required for all content.

The best idea I've seen for this so far, would be the one in this post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/42502-Please-fix-the-broken-enmity-system!!!!!?p=510611&viewfull=1#post510611). Although I can still see a few potential issues with it, I think it's a pretty good solution.

[Sekhmet]

Let me rephrase this. RUN's enmity generation abilities are sufficient(and still better than PLD's), in situations where having tank is viable at all. And, last I checked, Melee+Tank isn't one of those(not that, I admit, I've tried that lately.)

And giving you provoke isn't going to change that.

Although things did seem to get a bit better after the dmg enmity nerfs. But you'd still hit cap in fairly short order, even if you did stay ahead of DDs. But while dmg enmity has been reduced, the amount of dmg players deal has shot up again since then. The WS and SC adjustments being notable factors. I think it's still better than it was pre dmg enmity nerf, But I'm not really inclined to try to model DPS vs JA/spell spam atm. Even assuming I had the dmg enmity modifiers for high lvl mobs(which I don't.)

But now I'm rambling. Anyway, what's needed isn't provoke-esque actions for RUN, or any tank job. What's needed is further, major, adjustments to the enmity system.

First, address the enmity cap. Because until that changes, it doesn't matter how fast we build enmity, we all get stuck at the same point. Then we get the mob spinning like crazy constantly.

Second, something needs to be done about dmg enmity(Probably. I haven't really checked in detail to see what a melee DD's enmity generation would be like now, and if a tank can conceivably surpass it) But it's a difficult issue. It's already been adjusted twice. We don't want to nerf it too far, or DD tanking becomes impossible. While I want tanks to have a place, I don't want them to be absolutely required for all content.

The best idea I've seen for this so far, would be the one in this post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/42502-Please-fix-the-broken-enmity-system!!!!!?p=510611&viewfull=1#post510611). Although I can still see a few potential issues with it, I think it's a pretty good solution.

Thank you for explaining things for me. I apologize if my response seemed a bit passive-aggresive.

[Martel]

Thank you for explaining things for me. I apologize if my response seemed a bit passive-aggresive.You're welcome.

And let me note that I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting, or asking SE for, more Enmity actions. I just don't think it's strictly speaking necessary. But that doesn't keep me from wanting new toys for PLD... <,<;

[Grekumah]

Greetings,

The increase will take place for the cap that is currently in place for “Enmity +” that you can receive from equipment and certain abilities/spells. Many of you are already aware that the current cap for this is 100, but we will be doubling this and increasing the cap to 200.

Additionally, adjustments to paladin will be made so that Shield Bash, Rampart, and Palisade generate more non-volatile enmity.

[Kavik]

Greetings,

The increase will take place for the cap that is currently in place for “Enmity +” that you can receive from equipment and certain abilities/spells. Many of you are already aware that the current cap for this is 100, but we will be doubling this and increasing the cap to 200.

Additionally, adjustments to paladin will be made so that Shield Bash, Rampart, and Palisade generate more non-volatile enmity.

So we'll all still have the same cap. This is greatly disappointing as such it will change only that we can get hate faster, which is better, but this still wont 'fix' anything. I get the sense that the dev team is tired of us complaining about this issue. But as the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So I, at least will continue to squeak. It's all well and good to give pld more ways to generate enmity and the potency there of, but as I, and others have said many times. No matter how fast or how slow a job gets to cap, there will be bouncing around of enmity. I am looking forward to these changes in certain situations where enmity is lost consistently on the DDs. (IE Yorcia delve mega boss). In prolonged battles though, this inevitably brings us to the same conclusion. Please just give pld a Job Trait, Tier v of enmity lost while taking damage or something, which greatly reduces enmity lost when it is taken. So even if the mob hits all the melee and mages and even pld for the same amount, the pld loses 1/3 of the enmity of any other DD taking damage.

[Lyandra]

So we'll all still have the same cap. This is greatly disappointing as such it will change only that we can get hate faster, which is better, but this still wont 'fix' anything.

I could be wrong, but to me it reads like this:



The increase will take place for the cap that is currently in place for “Enmity +” that you can receive from equipment and certain abilities/spells. Many of you are already aware that the current cap for this is 100, but we will be doubling this and increasing the cap to 200.

Meaning that they are not raising the general enmity cap for players at all, but just raising the cap on gear, merits and spells in the Enmity+ category only. Which if that were true then it might actually make holding hate on tanks viable if melee reach the standard 100 enmity cap but only those with "Enmity+" category can go beyond that limit and reach 200 max. I could be wrong but like its been said just raising the cap overall wouldn't do any good (and therefore would be no reason to change anything).

[Aeron]

Greetings,

The increase will take place for the cap that is currently in place for “Enmity +” that you can receive from equipment and certain abilities/spells. Many of you are already aware that the current cap for this is 100, but we will be doubling this and increasing the cap to 200.

Additionally, adjustments to paladin will be made so that Shield Bash, Rampart, and Palisade generate more non-volatile enmity.

Ok when I first read Camate's post it sounded like he was referring to the total enmity cap which is 10,000 for VE and 10,000 for CE, i guess he wasn't which is really disappointing. The +enmity cap being raised really wont solve anything to be honest. Even with Tank mythics which have between +18 for pld and run to +30 for nin it is still going to be really hard to achieve this +200 enmity with gear and jas/mas unless you are going to adjust how much +enmity the new crusade spell and other equivalent spells give. Right now i can barely get +100 enmity and that's with ilvl gear and crusade so i don't know how you expect us to hit +200 enmity.

The total enmity cap is what everyone is referring to when they are asking for a cap adjustment not the +enmity gear cap. A scaling cap proportional to mob HP enough so that it would be equal to the amount of dmg necessary to kill it for 6ppl like what dasva said in another thread sounds really good.

[Mefuki]

A scaling cap proportional to mob HP enough so that it would be equal to the amount of dmg necessary to kill it for 6ppl like what dasva said in another thread sounds really good.

Quote for emphasis. Seriously, Dasva has a very good idea for how to deal with the enmity problem.

[dasva]

Well my idea was keeping the cap the same but changing the scaling of the modifier for dmg enmity from lvl to hp... though a scaling cap might work but it might still run into the problem of as dps rises tanks that rely on fixed hate jas/spells would fall behind to dds so it might require small adjustments as time goes by if they raise especially if they ever increase ilvl. Changing the amount gained based on hate should be effectively a permanent solution... well at least until SE starts putting mobs that heal themselves too much

[Aeron]

Well my idea was keeping the cap the same but changing the scaling of the modifier for dmg enmity from lvl to hp... though a scaling cap might work but it might still run into the problem of as dps rises tanks that rely on fixed hate jas/spells would fall behind to dds so it might require small adjustments as time goes by if they raise especially if they ever increase ilvl. Changing the amount gained based on hate should be effectively a permanent solution... well at least until SE starts putting mobs that heal themselves too much

I'm sorry I misunderstood what you meant then my bad. I really hate the 10000 CE/VE cap though. If they made it so that the cap was scaling generally whoever was doing the most dmg would grab mob attention (i know this is generally the case but with -enmity gear on it doesn't have to be) but like you mentioned as dps of DDs increases over time so to would enmity values of tanks to be able to compensate so that it wouldn't be impossible for the tank to claim hate. I think they should get ride of losing enmity from dmg too and return +enmity to just effecting the values of enmity in spells/jas. If the mob healed themselves a lot though that should have the same effect of artificially increasing the total cap of that particular mob though i don't know how that would look in any kind of enmity formula.

This would also make the newly increased cap to +enmity a lot more useful then its going to be. Just thinking about what ifs too, they could have a mechanic that if you were able to reach the enmity cap that was now equal to the mobs HP before everyone else that it locked you in hate for amount of minutes. Given the large amount of Hp that current mobs have it would be unlikely that DDs could just wait until the tank established this feature and so it would general come some where half way into the fight or 3/4s of the way in. But with this hate lock the Mob then go berserk requiring the tank focus not on generating hate but staying alive.

[FrankReynolds]

So now instead of waiting 60 seconds for the paladin to build hate and then running in and stealing hate after my first weaponskill, I can just wait 30 seconds for the paladin to build hate before running in and stealing it. Seems like a good use of dev time.

[Akivatoo]

FrankReynolds you'r totally right, that exactly that.
i'm gonna make video if i have time for explain to the dev team the problem, because they never play the game.

[FrankReynolds]

FrankReynolds you'r totally right, that exactly that.
i'm gonna make video if i have time for explain to the dev team the problem, because they never play the game.

Yeah, I mean everyone who is not RNG can die and / or the paladin can go from being a tank to a really bad DD 30 seconds faster now. What's not to love?

[Akivatoo]

Due to the last Atonment update we do as PLD very good ws but we aren't anable to up correctly TP wihout kill PDT/MDT-

[Raka]

Kind of sucks no plans for Uriel Blade as well as other NPC specific weapon skill implementation....considering in 2011 that they promised us this should enough people request it. Yet, here we are...about to enter 2015 and still nothing, lol.