Quality PUP Check-In

[Tetsujin]

Was just wondering how we're faring in the latest era of this game. Specifically those of you that play multiple DD jobs - how does PUP damage compare?

I've recently been (miraculously) invited to a few skirmishes where can I honestly say that my damage output according to parses was comparable to some other DDs, and my gear isn't even that great. Given that the puppet had no chance of connecting with the target I made it full time Haste II me.

(Edit: Let's be fair, it was skellie mobs so I had a crutch.)

So what are some of the numbers you've seen? Any story or WS damage record you'd like to show off?

Typically my Victory Smites and Stringing Pummels vary from 4k to 6k depending on the content. For reference, I've seen my THF friend pop Rudra's for 10k+. Just saw a video with a SAM spamming Tachi:Fudo for 11k at a time..

[Mitruya]

My experience is, "can you come another job?" So I don't know what to tell you. I solo with it but don't take note of the damage, because lolsolo.

[crptaculous]

I'm going to be blunt and honest with you: without a iLVL119 mythic, PUP serves no purpose in current endgame. Even with, it's still the bottom of the list. But,with that said, Kenkonken definitely close the gap a lot.

Long story short: DPS is low from master without mythic, WS are decent (with and without mythic) but not enough to make up for accuracy issues do to low H2H skill (compared to MNK and WAR). Automaton is too squishy, and the mage ones are a bit didtzy still (not anywhere near as bad as it used to be, but still needs work, ie: the soulsoother constantly trying to remove a debuff inflicted by an aura). Automaton Acc is also an issue, since they can't receive buffs, such as BRD songs, Cor Rolls, or Geo Aura's. I did a wopket run on pup the other day, someone told me that the automaton had 67% accuracy, while I had 96%.

Summary: PUP still is lol. Less lol with mythic, but still lol, compared to what people determine as 'real DDs'

one thing to note: is that SE had announced adjusting Pet jobs' pets DPS, to make it so that the combined power between master and pet will be greater than or equal to the rest of DDs in the game. I believe it was mentioned in the most recent Freshly Picked Vanadiel blog.

[Tetsujin]

Thanks for the obligatory "lolPUP" posts. I'm so grateful!!

Yes, PUP isn't reliable or ideal in endgame -- duh. Thanks for the update. I use SCH if I want certain gear in endgame content which is popular enough. But that's not what I care about right now; I want to discuss PUP.

Let me try to redirect this conversation: How are up to speed PUPs doing? What are the numbers we're seeing from X Weapon Skill on such-and-such mobs? What kind of DPS are we seeing? What are some standards to compare to if one wants to measure their PUP?

Also "PUP still is lol" -- Right. Comfortably soloing content without being forced to sub dnc is so lame am I right? Point taken.

Edit: Never meant to imply that your PUP wasn't up to speed. Sorry about that. Meant to be two completely different statements.

[Balloon]

There's nothing wrong with stating that Puppetmaster is in a bad spot, and being able to solo old content doesn't justify it. People should speak up, it doesn't mean you hate the job if you highlight their many, many flaws.

Having your own claim to fame being able to solo stuff is lame, yes. Nobody curr, everyone can do it.

Crptaculous actually answered your question quite admirably, he did a Wopket run on pup and found his damage crappy. I don't know what you want to hear? Lies? I'd argue he's quite up to speed.

[Mitruya]

PUP is my main, I love it. I just don't get to do anything major with it to give you numbers like you are asking. I don't bother to note my damage when soloing. So I'm sorry if you were offended.
I'd be interested in hearing results from others though. But it's been my impression from Shinron and Crptaculous and others that even if I had EVERY freakin' best in slot piece, it would not matter. I'm not sure if it's worth building a mythic for if it continues to have a bad rep.

[crptaculous]

geez, someone's a bit butt hurt.

Check my FFXIAH.com profile. I just got a Kenkonken iLVL 119 one week ago. And you have the gall to infer that I'm not "up to speed"...ya ok, So Sorry My mythic isn't up to speed enough for you.

After using my Mythic in old content and new alike, I have based my opinions on that. And the verdict is: Mythic PUP = non-mythic MNK (and only when formless strikes is not needed, otherwise MNK > PUP). SAM, DRK and DRG still way better. Especially SAM. All it takes is a quick parse to prove it.

As mentioned by others soloing old content does not dictate that it's as well off as a Tinhaspa H2H MNK or better. If I want to play a solo, I'll go play Skyrim or Fallout.

Look, the OP was two questions,
1) how's PUP fairing these days.
2) what's WS damage doing now?

I answered both.

I'll answer them again in short, easier answers:
1) PUP is better, but not as good as normal DD.
2) as I said, without a mythic, WS's are sub par. I'm sorry I didn't give a specific number, my bad. Average with Tinhaspa H2H and avg iLvl of 119: 2-4k Stringing pummels, with spikes of 4-5 if all hits land and/or crit. Need same buffs as other DDs though. Average with 119 Mythic, 4-6k with occasional spikes of 6-8k on AM3 procc, crit, and/or accuracy.

Don't like the answer? Well, that's too bad, because that's how it is.

#REKT

[WoW]

I'm going to be blunt and honest with you: without a iLVL119 mythic, PUP serves no purpose in current endgame. Even with, it's still the bottom of the list. But,with that said, Kenkonken definitely close the gap a lot.

Long story short: DPS is low from master without mythic, WS are decent (with and without mythic) but not enough to make up for accuracy issues do to low H2H skill (compared to MNK and WAR). Automaton is too squishy, and the mage ones are a bit didtzy still (not anywhere near as bad as it used to be, but still needs work, ie: the soulsoother constantly trying to remove a debuff inflicted by an aura). Automaton Acc is also an issue, since they can't receive buffs, such as BRD songs, Cor Rolls, or Geo Aura's. I did a wopket run on pup the other day, someone told me that the automaton had 67% accuracy, while I had 96%.

Summary: PUP still is lol. Less lol with mythic, but still lol, compared to what people determine as 'real DDs'

one thing to note: is that SE had announced adjusting Pet jobs' pets DPS, to make it so that the combined power between master and pet will be greater than or equal to the rest of DDs in the game. I believe it was mentioned in the most recent Freshly Picked Vanadiel blog.

This is indeed true^^

However, SE says/imply alot of things, I will believe it when I see it.

[Babekeke]

Figured I'd chuck this in here for you since it's kind of relevant...


And especially after the skillchain update, every 2 handed job can outdo MNK with a good enough store TP set. They however, will die horribly and never get to use it. Damage barely matters anyway. Some people cleared Very Difficult fights with just PLD and some PUP's as DD's. (Because they can dump all their hate onto a puppet outside AoE range every minute and send it away, thus never pulling hate.) And every delve boss can be killed by BRD/1 DD/WHM. The enemies don't have that much HP or that much defense. Surviving the fight's the hard part.

[Krysten]

PUP is the most survivable solo job in the game there isnt much i cant solo on pup, that said i dont get invited to anythiung mainly because people still dont get it or want to give "another strategy" a try i feel they do need to update Automations a bit as Blm can no longer come close to hanging with actual blms, rng does best dmg whm is meh at best rdm is the best all around frame with haste II i basiclly perma-100 fists, it is stressful that we put all this work into our job and were asked to come a diff job to delve/AA

[Tetsujin]

Sorry for the outburst. Thanks for chiming in and answering specific questions and many many congrats on the Mythic.

I know it's been this way for a while but it's still a bit depressing to hear. Mythic is something I'm currently pursuing as well.

I love PUP and I really hope this coming update shows us some love. The Shiro/Kusa/Akamochi was a much welcome gesture and I've yet to test out if the 100+ ranged accuracy will make a difference at all.

Thanks again (and sorry again)

[crptaculous]

Damn, now I feel bad lol, apology accepted :D
-for the record I did say I was gonna be blunt lol

You're welcome for the info.


oh ya, nearly forgot about the pet/master shared food. But ya that isn't nearly enough. They should have added 200acc/r.acc to the pet with the same stats it has added to the master.

It still really doesn't matter anyway though. The pet's defense is soooooo bad, that it dies in like 1 or 2 TP moves from the bosses in delve. It last well enough with proper repair sets and such on the t1-5 NMs, but still it's a more a pain the behind to fart around keeping a gimp pet alive, when you could be WSing like there's no tomorrow when you got the proper buffs on.

I ended up resorting to using the Valoredge on wopket just so I could get it to use Invincible to live longer, lol. But 98% of my DMG was me lol.

[fjamesfernandez]

Yeah CG on Mythic and I have recently got my mythic as well yay me but still people ride on the same win bandwagon which they dont want me to come pup lol though there are some people that will take you. Take out formless from a mnk and what happens? Lets go toe to toe without pup having to do anything to its automaton and see the numbers.

Yes we are mnks with less h2h skill, no formless and a pet though mnks have more access to gear pieces than we do. A lot of the acc/atk/da piece I want to get pup cant wear but a stupid brd whom dont melee has access to it. I agree that our automatons are super squishy in higher content and sharing food and buffs wont help much i believe. In another thread I mention that if the dev team can augment delve depending on the number of pt/alli then they can do the same to our automaton. Make it so that our automaton gets augmented from solo/pt/alli. Like crappy ass ff14. Your pt/alli gets augmented depending the amount of people in pt/alli and the jobs that are in it. but thats a big stretch for them to do following their track record.

whats the point of having all these jobs if they cant follow new content?

Highest acc you can get without food is around 950+ but you kill your store tp and da sets
med build acc you can get without food is around 903+ without killing your store tp and da sets much
because we dont have the acc pieces like mnk/brd back and belt our sets are shot a bit.

So with Kenkoken tested without food or buffs other than aftermath

Lower end on New Content mobs lv.106 WS is around 3k+~8k+
Med end on New Content mobs lv.116 WS is around 3k+~6k+
Higher end on New Content mobs lv.125 is around 1k+3k+ (super eva and def)

can be higher if 6~8hits land with crt, buffs, food, and aftermath. Can also be even higher if you adjust your gear sets to be different when AM is activated. with haste II and kenkoken it would be basically as if the weapon didnt have any delay on it.

and for tp return to tell if your hits landed

1hit:100 Return <Shoulder Tackle>
2hit:114 Return <Shoulder Tackle>

5hit:144 Return <Stringing Pummel>
6Hit:154 Return <Stringing Pummel>
7~8Hit:??? Return <Stringing Pummel>

And another thing that we can do as pup in higher content is not to have our automaton out all the time. Problem with this though is the delay we get from having to activate, maneuver, deploy, and deactivate takes away from our dps. If pup fast enough where main whm messed up some how, while pup has pocket whm can just activate fast to use 1hr to save the pt from a wipe. and if the pup is fast enough can swap out whm/rdm/and even blm head but thats just too much work lol

[Marada]

Why not allow PUPs to have an extra setting done with the "Gear sets" option they just added? Where you do a basic set of the attachments you most use for each head/body and then you can add different attachments to it later for the variable situations.

I don't think SE thought(or cared) too much when then added the major customizations that are done with pup and the difficulties of having to do all the attachment swaps. It's almost similar to the annoyance of setting blu magic spells.

[Corvus1987]

PUP is the most survivable solo job in the game there isnt much i cant solo on pup, that said i dont get invited to anythiung mainly because people still dont get it or want to give "another strategy" a try i feel they do need to update Automations a bit as Blm can no longer come close to hanging with actual blms, rng does best dmg whm is meh at best rdm is the best all around frame with haste II i basiclly perma-100 fists, it is stressful that we put all this work into our job and were asked to come a diff job to delve/AA
*Claps* thank you very much for that krysten

[Grekumah]

Necro-bumping for all the loyal puppetmasters!

In a future version update we will be increase the cap on elemental attributes, and the adjustment to the elemental attribute values layout that took place during the November version update was in preparation for this.

The increase of the elemental energy cap will not be by additional heads or frames, it will involve separate elements. Along with this increase we are also looking into adding high-tier attachments.

[Mefuki]

Please insist to the Devs how important it is to increase the duration of maneuver, Grekumah. It's really important.

[Alhanelem]

Please insist to the Devs how important it is to increase the duration of maneuver, Grekumah. It's really important.
This is something they've weighed in on in the past (Note: I agree with you totally). I maintain your hope that they will reconsider, but I doubt their answer will change (I believe they wanted to make sure that players were alert and skillful in the control of their pets or something like that and that they wanted it to be something that had to be maintained). But that said, one of the big factors in PUP being able to compete is the impact of JA delay, and they need to realize that this hurts the job more than they seem to think it does, and certainly more than any perceived benefit from making us more actively control our puppets.

[Afania]

And the verdict is: Mythic PUP = non-mythic MNK (and only when formless strikes is not needed, otherwise MNK > PUP). SAM, DRK and DRG still way better. Especially SAM. All it takes is a quick parse to prove it.



I'm not entirely convinced that DRK is way better than MNK, just saying. You're welcome to prove me wrong though. Also I don't understand the point of discussing WS numbers in a DD hierarchy discussion. High WS dmg doesn't make a DD good and vice versa.

[Alhanelem]

I just wish they didn't preemptively shoot down our hopes and dreams of new frames/heads.

[Bluestar2kx]

This is something they've weighed in on in the past (Note: I agree with you totally). I maintain your hope that they will reconsider, but I doubt their answer will change (I believe they wanted to make sure that players were alert and skillful in the control of their pets or something like that and that they wanted it to be something that had to be maintained). But that said, one of the big factors in PUP being able to compete is the impact of JA delay, and they need to realize that this hurts the job more than they seem to think it does, and certainly more than any perceived benefit from making us more actively control our puppets.

I think the bigger reason is players being so uptight over 2-3seconds of delay, "killing" their DPS.

Anyway, I think increasing the elemental cap on automations would be a nice boost, esp for mage ones.
But I think we need a physical high DD automation. Valoredge is nice but a better tank then DD, though, doesn't keep hate very well at 99, but from the sounds of it, part of a FFXI system problem.

Wish we could get a DRK frame/head, or maybe samurai.
Either one would be really cool^^ Might be rather sweet looking too.

[Glamdring]

I agree Bluestar, even with the few seconds manuvers take the combined DPS of a pup/auto is as high as most DD (or would be with a Divinator and the stats PROPERLY scaled for pets to 119), only Sam and maybe Rng being above it-with the exceptions of the whm auto or Harley of course. But the perception of it by other players is as damaging as the "XP penalty from beast pets" was; it took YEARS after the penalty was removed for players to let Beasts do anything involving a party-and frankly I think there are still a few idiots that believe a beast pet costs XP. And you cannot fix player perceptions, willful ignorance is going to happen, especially when reality might cost the warrior or whatever their party slot that they are guaranteed as long as it's a dead certainty your Pup is going to be passed over as it is now. That said, an elemental boost is a welcome addition, mage autos mean a more varied damage output for the party, which can be quite advantageous, especially with SE making boss mobs able to deal with the Zerg everything mechanic most commonly in use in FFXI.

[Roja323]

So with todays announced JA, i had a few questions.

1) The animations and animation lock for maneuvers will be removed.: Does this mean it will no longer incur the JA delay? Or is this just the animation lock. I could give 3 rat tails less about animation lock. Unless it means we will continue to auto attack, i dont see the point honestly.

2) The harlequin frame and stormwaker frame weapon attributes will be changed from hand-to-hand to blunt.: Um, isn't h2h already considered blunt damage? Do they mean these automatons will be treated as if they are using a one handed club?

3)The maximum accuracy of familiars summoned with Call Beast, wyverns, avatars, and automatons will be increased from 95% to 99%. That's great, but we cant get them to the 95% cap in any content that matters, so why bother increasing the cap to 99? Unless the new food is going to add 300 acc to pets (which i guarantee it wont) why raise the cap when we cant hit the current cap without completly gimping our self.

[Peepiopi]

So with todays announced JA, i had a few questions.

1) The animations and animation lock for maneuvers will be removed.: Does this mean it will no longer incur the JA delay? Or is this just the animation lock. I could give 3 rat tails less about animation lock. Unless it means we will continue to auto attack, i dont see the point honestly.



That's exactly what it means :p. Rejoice.

I've never been allowed to take my PUP into endgame content, so I don't know how bad accuracy problems are. Though as far as the 99% accuracy cap, it might make a minor difference. The biggest difference in endgame content though, would be the elimination of the JA delay for pups. That alone will give them a considerable dps boost. And of course, we still don't know how much acc the new pet accuracy food will provide.

This is just what puppetmasters needed, but they'll probably continue watching Pup DPS as time goes on before they make any other accuracy changes to it to make sure they didn't make pup overpowered. In any case, the animation delay fix was #1 on my puppetmaster wish list, so I'm glad they're taking it out of the equation.

[Roja323]

I really hope that is the case, because I am 99% done with my Kenkonken, just need 50 assaults (have 30k banked alex on 2 mules), nyzul done, ichor at 72/100k, already have the 3 znm drops. KKK with no overload + maneuvers with no delay would be awesome sauce.

Now if only our pets could hit the acc cap.

[Peepiopi]

I really hope that is the case, because I am 99% done with my Kenkonken, just need 50 assaults (have 30k banked alex on 2 mules), nyzul done, ichor at 72/100k, already have the 3 znm drops. KKK with no overload + maneuvers with no delay would be awesome sauce.

Now if only our pets could hit the acc cap.

That's awesome man. So far I'm .5% percent done with my Kenkonken. I'm still in the dreaming stage.

[Tetsujin]

2) The harlequin frame and stormwaker frame weapon attributes will be changed from hand-to-hand to blunt.: Um, isn't h2h already considered blunt damage? Do they mean these automatons will be treated as if they are using a one handed club?


Hand-to-Hand falls into a special category of blunt damage. When mobs are -25% weak to blunt damage, they are only -12.5% weak to "hand-to-hand (Blunt)" damage. This feature has been around since the oldest days. Since automatons only attack once per turn, it's only fair to switch them over to the "better" version.

I'm not sure if there's any difference in blunt/hand-to-hand(blunt) than that one.


EDIT: Just cross-checked and the above is true. The other forms of blunt [other weapons, blue mage spells, avatars] will get the full +25% modifier against skellies and jars (for example) and h2h users get +12.5%. For mobs that are resistant, these two damage types are treated with equal penalty.

[Roja323]

For people big on macros/equipsets:
How does the removal of the JA delay affect gear swaps for burden? Currently the post maneuver delay doesnt matter because it stops auto attack.
Can i remove the post maneuver delay, or should i keep it? Never really had to deal with macros + 0 delay ja.

Currently i have
equipset - burden
wait 1
maneuver
wait 1
equipset - tp